1 Friday, 29 September 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Milutinovic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. O'Sullivan, I note the absence of Mr.
7 Milutinovic, but I note also that there's a waiver to proceed with today's
8 hearing. Thank you.
9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I just wanted to indicate, we have a new
10 face on the Prosecution side this day. Assisting our case manager Susan
11 Grogan is Tamara Margitic, who may join us later on during the trial as
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Ramadani.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: The evidence will now continue. Please remember
18 that the solemn declaration which you made at the beginning of your
19 evidence to tell the truth will continue to apply to your evidence today,
20 and the next counsel to ask you questions will be on behalf of Mr.
21 Lazarevic, Mr. Bakrac.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. And since
23 you have introduced me, there's no need for me to introduce myself again.
24 WITNESS: LUTFI RAMADANI [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ramadani, I have just a couple of questions
3 for you and I believe that we will go through them rather quickly, if your
4 answers are short and precise.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to place
6 on the screen P99.
7 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you have that document on the screen?
8 A. Yes. If you could enlarge it a little bit.
9 Q. Is it now good?
10 A. I apologise, I have to put on my glasses first. Okay.
11 Q. Mr. Ramadani, yesterday we saw this photo on a number of occasions
12 and I have just one question about this photo. Could you please tell us
13 whether you can see the main road, the Djakovica-Prizren road, in this
15 A. No. The main road, Gjakova-Prizren, is not on this photo, because
16 it goes by the end -- by the edge of the village. Here.
17 Q. And in the upper right corner, in the top part of the photo, can
18 you see at least a part of that road?
19 A. Yes, this here, this is part of the road, yes, Prizren-Gjakova,
20 but it's only part of it. It's not very clear from this picture.
21 Q. Can you mark the very top of the photo with a blue marker, the top
22 of the photo where you can see the part of the road. Or just draw a line.
23 A. Here, the cellar. Here I think. This here.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. Could you please put number 1 next to
25 that dot, or maybe the dot will be enough. Okay, number 1.
1 Tell me, please, can you see your house in this photo? Can you
2 see it?
3 A. My house, this one here.
4 Q. Could you please put number 2 next to it in order to make things
6 JUDGE CHOWHAN: [Microphone not activated]
7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. Yesterday you also showed us the
10 stream where you were. You also pointed for us the house.
11 A. Yes, the stream is around here, but it's not --
12 Q. You don't have to show us that; we already have that. Mr.
13 Ramadani, you don't have to do it again; we already have one photo the
14 stream, of the house, belonging to Mr. Batusha and the place where Mr.
15 Batusha's cowshed is. You pointed all that for us yesterday.
16 You will agree with me that from these three places, given the
17 fact that we see the houses that are densely placed in the corner, that
18 you could not see all these places from the main road, the places that we
19 have just mentioned.
20 A. Here, in the corner, you can see the road. You can see also
21 downwards towards the stream and the meadow, but upwards you cannot see,
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could this photo be given an exhibit
25 number, please? Then I will move on.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC68, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Ramadani, thank you very much. You don't have to look at this
5 photo anymore. I have before me the transcript of your testimony in the
6 Milosevic case. Is it true that in that case you stated that, as far as
7 Mala Krusa goes, the Albanians did not die at the hands of the Yugoslav
8 army and that the same apply to the neighbouring village. Is that
10 MS. MOELLER: Could we have a page reference for that, please?
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The page is 6723, lines 16 through
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I did not understand
14 the question very well.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I referred you to the page, and I'm asking you whether it is
17 correct that in the Milosevic case you stated that the Albanians did not
18 die at the hands of the Yugoslav army in Mala Krusa, and that the same was
19 true of the neighbouring villages. Is that correct?
20 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, I object to this because, as far as I
21 see from the transcript, the question put by Mr. Milosevic referred to
22 whether any Albanians were killed by NATO bombing. It doesn't talk about
23 the army at all.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the question was this:
1 "If nobody was killed by the KLA in fighting, if nobody was killed
2 by NATO, all who perished, according to you, were civilians, the civilians
3 that died at the hands of the Serbian police and the Serbian army."
4 The civilians were mentioned and Mr. Ramadani responded in
5 reference to the civilians.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: What was the response? I don't have this
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The response was:
9 "The Albanians died at the hands of the Serbian police in Mala
10 Krusa and the same was true of the neighbouring villages."
11 I believe that the objection is not founded and that a clear
12 reference is made to the Albanian civilians, and the response as well
13 refers to the Albanian civilians.
14 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, I don't see any reference in the answer
15 to neighbouring villages.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment.
17 The problem here is created by the approach to the question. The
18 transcript's quite unnecessary for the question you want to ask, and it's
19 only if you get an answer that you think is inconsistent with what the
20 witness has said before in court that there's any point in going into the
21 transcript. And that's why confusion's arising often in relation to this
22 type of question. So why don't you put the basic question, and then if it
23 needs to be tested by reference to the transcript, we can go back to the
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that that is
1 the question that I put, and this was followed by an objection. The only
2 thing I said was that the witness had already spoken about that. Let me
3 put the question to Mr. Ramadani.
4 Q. Mr. Ramadani, is it true that in Mala Krusa and in the
5 neighbouring villages, the Albanians did not perish at the hands of the
6 Yugoslav army?
7 A. Innocent civilians were killed by the police; the police killed
8 them and burned them.
9 Q. Mr. Ramadani, is it also true that the artillery was not used in
10 Mala Krusa during the period of time that you're terrifying about?
11 A. It was used. The army was all around Krusha e Vogel, outside the
12 village not inside the village. I said earlier that inside the village
13 the police were there, while the army was around, all around the village.
14 There were Pragas and tanks, but the APCs were inside on the streets of
15 the village.
16 Q. Mr. Ramadani, I'm going to read back to you what you said at the
17 Milosevic trial. Page 6721 of the transcript, lines from 21 through 24,
18 the accused Milosevic asked you:
19 "Very well, then. Was the artillery used or was it not used? Can
20 you tell me that?"
21 "JUDGE MAY: The witness said that the artillery was not used."
22 The witness Ramadani answered:
23 "The artillery was not used. There was only shooting from
24 armoured vehicles."
25 What is correct, what you said during the Milosevic trial or what
1 you are saying to us today? The question was very clear and your answer
2 was clear as well; you said that the artillery had not been used.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you -- sorry, please answer the
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it earlier and I said it
6 yesterday that the artillery, the army was around the village, around the
7 village but not inside the village. I'm testifying here about my village,
8 not other villages.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ramadani, did the army fire these artillery
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see them use those
12 weapons, but they cleansed the terrain. And the militia, the police,
13 opened fire.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: One other thing you said according to the Milosevic
15 transcript was: "There was only shooting from armoured vehicles." What
16 did you mean by that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from the APCs. But the tanks
18 and the Pragas were around the villages, while on the APCs, they had guns
19 on them and they opened fire on the village.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you also provided a statement on the 5th of October,
22 2001. Is that correct? This was provided to the Office of the
24 A. I've given many statements, but I didn't keep notes when I gave
25 those statements.
1 Q. Mr. Ramadani, let me read to you a part of your statement relative
2 to what we have just spoken about.
3 "They asked me how many vehicles of the VJ were to be seen on the
4 asphalt road outside of Mala Krusa. They were lined up along the
5 Djakovica-Prizren road, the asphalt road. The first time they were
6 deployed there was on the 25th of March at 4.00. And the vehicles that I
7 saw were something between the APCs, the armoured vehicles and Pragas, and
8 they were not camouflaged. The APCs were of blue colour; they belonged to
9 the MUP. And the Pragas were of a regular green colour, as in the VJ.
10 They asked me if I knew whether a T-55 was ever stationed in the area of
11 Mala Krusa."
12 And your answer was no. In other words, in the statement you
13 provided, as I've already said, on the 5th of October, 2001, you denied
14 having seen a VJ tank. You only saw Pragas and APCs. Is that correct?
15 A. In every statement that I gave, I've said that the tanks and the
16 Pragas were stationed on the main road Prizren-Gjakova and around the
17 village. There were tanks and Pragas, while the APCs were on the streets
18 inside the village. I don't know how to explain this any further. I
19 think it's clear.
20 Q. Yes, I understand your explanation and I have no further questions
21 about that.
22 My last question to you is this: Did you give your statement, and
23 the question put to you was whether you had seen a tank in that area, in
24 the territory of Mala Krusa, and your answer was no, very clear and loud.
25 And if you don't have any other explanations save for us, I have no
1 further questions for you, sir.
2 A. My house is in the outskirts of the village and you can see the
3 asphalt road very well from there. And I'm saying this again today:
4 There were tanks there and Pragas.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
6 further questions for this witness. And I assume, Your Honours, that the
7 transcripts and the statement that I have referred to, since they have
8 been used, that they will automatically be admitted into evidence, that I
9 don't have to tender them specially.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the transcript so far as relevant is already
11 in as 6D87, but I don't think the statement is and we don't have a number
12 from the further statement.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this may be a
14 convenient moment for this. My case management wanted to put this on
15 e-court, but team 6D has already done that. I have their number, which is
16 6D87. Maybe to avoid duplication -- sorry, and the statement is 6D82.
17 6D82 is the statement that I have discussed with Mr. Ramadani.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Could we see on the screen the point that you've
19 just put to him, please?
20 MR. BAKRAC: Yes.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: So can we see 6D82?
22 Now, do you know which e-court page number has the final question
23 that you put?
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what you
25 have in the system, and the page numbers are the same. It's number 3.
1 More specifically, what I have read out can be found in the last paragraph
2 on that page. The question is the fifth line from the bottom of the page
3 and the answer follows immediately after that. There was also a question
4 about rockets, whether rockets were seen on those vehicles, and the answer
5 was also no.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: But the specific question here was whether he was
7 aware of any T-55 tanks being stationed in Mala Krusa at this time. Is
8 that right? Right. Thank you.
9 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I would just like to note that Mr.
10 Bakrac also read out the paragraph which is now at the very top of the
11 page, to the witness -- no, it was at the top in the position it was just
12 now. Yes, now you have scrolled up again. "I have also been asked how
13 many ..." This was also read out to the witness.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, indeed. Thank you.
15 Mr. Visnjic.
16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ramadani, I'm Tomislav Visnjic, Defence
19 counsel for General Ojdanic, and I'm going to put a few questions to you.
20 Actually, I need some clarification from you.
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
22 P99, page 2.
23 Q. Mr. Ramadani, this is also a photograph of your village taken from
24 another angle from which the asphalt road can be seen a bit better, the
25 one that we talked about, the road between Prizren and Djakovica. My
1 question is the following: In this photograph, can you mark the place
2 where Batusha's cowshed was.
3 A. This is the Prizren-Gjakova main road. Here. This is where the
4 Batusha cowshed is.
5 Q. All right. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani --
6 A. That's correct. Yes, it is here.
7 Q. -- is it correct that from the asphalt road between Prizren and
8 Djakovica one cannot see this yard and Batusha's house, let alone
9 Batusha's cowshed? Am I right? Two reasons at that, the first being that
10 it's in the hills and pretty far away; and the second reason is that even
11 if something could be visible, the houses before that block the view and
12 the trees that are pretty high there. Am I right?
13 A. Yes. You cannot see the house from the asphalt road, but you can
14 see it from Suka Brdo.
15 Q. That's right. That's on the other side of the road.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Has the photograph been marked? Because it's not
17 come up on my screen.
18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a blue dot.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be a good thing --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] -- if the witness put a number 1 by
23 the dot.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Before you go on, Mr. Visnjic.
25 Mr. Ramadani, you've told us that there were armoured vehicles on
1 the main road and you've also said that the army's tanks and Pragas, as
2 you put it earlier, were all around the village. Now, can you indicate on
3 this photograph what you mean by "all around the village"?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my house here, and you can
5 see the asphalt road from the second floor. When we woke up at 4.00, we
6 saw everything on this asphalt road, the tanks, the Pragas. So from this
7 house you can see the asphalt road and Suka Brdo.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, does that answer mean that these vehicles were
9 simply on the main road?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have
13 exhausted the topic in this way, but could the photograph please remain on
14 the screen.
15 Q. Mr. Ramadani, I wanted to ask you something else. In this yard
16 where Batusha's cowshed is, there is yet another building which can be
17 seen here without a roof. Am I right? Or if that is inconvenient for
18 you, if you cannot see it there --
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
20 3D121, page 3?
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you wish a record made of the photograph that's
22 on the screen at the moment?
23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC69, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 Now let's have 3D121.
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] 3D121, page 3.
3 Q. Mr. Ramadani, this is a picture of the yard where Batusha's
4 cowshed was. According to the information I have, the building on the
5 left-hand side should be Batusha's house, but my question to you is the
6 following: The building in the middle of the yard, who does that belong
7 to; do you know?
8 A. It belongs to Qazim Batusha, the one without a roof. I think this
9 photograph was recently made; it's not from before.
10 Q. Correct. It was recently taken, this photograph, yes.
11 MS. MOELLER: Could we have an indication from the Defence when
12 that was taken?
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] The 25th of May, 2006.
15 Q. Mr. Ramadani, the building on the left-hand side, who does that
16 belong to?
17 A. To Beli Avdyli. This one here, it's Beli Avdyli's house. But
18 this photograph was also recently taken because this wall wasn't here
20 Q. Thank you. Yes.
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
22 3D121, pages 1 and 2?
23 Q. Mr. Ramadani, is it correct that NATO aircraft bombed your village
24 twice during the war, on the 13th of May, 1999, and on the 2nd of June,
25 1999; to be more precise, the wine cellar, "vinarija," by the asphalt
2 A. At that time while I was there, NATO did not bomb. NATO bombed on
3 the 24th in the evening, but that was far from our house. We could only
4 see the planes, the aircraft, going in that direction, but they did not
5 bomb the village.
6 Q. When you came back - and you said that you came back in June 1999
7 - did you see --
8 A. June --
9 Q. -- the effects of the bombing of the wine cellar?
10 A. No effects of the bombing in the village, only in the cellar. You
11 could see some effects there, but not in the village. When we came back
12 from Albania, we observed this.
13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ramadani, Aziz Shehu, one of the persons on your
14 list, was he employed in the wine cellar; do you know, perhaps?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Ramadani, one more question --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Which list was that, Mr. Visnjic?
18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's the list that
19 the witness provided --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: What --
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] to the Court, and that person is
22 mentioned on that list. I haven't got the exact number of --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: One of the victims?
24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, one of the victims, yes.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I appreciate --
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] P2537 [as interpreted], that's what
2 my colleague said to me just now.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I appreciate that that's the list, but it had a
4 number of different categories and there also was a list of other people
5 given separately from that document. But anyway, please carry on.
6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I haven't got the
7 document in front of me now, but I think --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't need the document. I just wanted to know
9 what list you're referring to. I'm quite content with the explanation,
11 MS. MOELLER: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I just note a mistake in
12 the transcript. The exhibit number says 2537, but it's 2337.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, sorry, I didn't realise that's why --
14 MS. MOELLER: 2357 is the correct number, excuse me.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: I didn't realise that that's what the registrar was
16 drawing my attention to, but he had spotted it already. Thanks for the
18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Ramadani, to the best of your knowledge, is it correct that
20 all Albanians from your village left the village on the 26th of March,
22 A. Only the women left on the 26th of March. The men, they all
23 remained in the village and they were all burned. From 13 years of age
24 and elderly persons, they were burned.
25 Q. To the best of your knowledge, only Serbs stayed behind in the
1 village, and the Roma. Is that right?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
4 further questions of this witness.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 Could we have that exhibit, P2357, on the screen, please. And can
7 we go to the next page. I'm sorry, it must be yet another page over,
8 please. It's one of the shorter lists I'm looking for. Over again,
9 please. That's it. Yes. Thank you very much. You can remove that.
10 Ms. Moeller.
11 MS. MOELLER: Just a few questions, Your Honour.
12 Could we call up P99, page 2 again, please.
13 Re-examination by Ms. Moeller:
14 Q. Mr. Ramadani, this is the photo we just looked at already this
15 morning, and you already pointed out on this picture where your house was
16 in relation to the asphalt road, but it wasn't marked.
17 MS. MOELLER: Could the usher assist with a pen.
18 Q. And could you try to mark it. Should we move in a little bit
19 before we do that, towards the asphalt road, or do you feel you can do it
20 in this perspective?
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Why can't we use the one where it was already
22 marked, which was IC -- I can't remember the number. But we had the house
24 MS. MOELLER: No, we had the asphalt -- Mr. Visnjic had the
25 Batusha barn side road, but not where he lived, from where he saw the
1 asphalt road in the morning.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: So it was marked on an earlier -- on a different
3 photograph. Is that right?
4 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
6 MS. MOELLER:
7 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you see your house on this, or shall we zoom in a
8 little bit?
9 A. No problem. This is the house. And from here you can see the
10 Prizren-Gjakova main road. It's in the outskirts of the village.
11 Q. Could you also make a line on this road that you just talked
12 about, the Gjakova-Prizren road? Or could you make dots where your saw
13 armoured vehicles and tanks that morning from your house, just some red
14 dots on the road.
15 A. You can see everything from here, from my house.
16 Q. And, as the crow flies, how much is the distance between your
17 house and this road, approximately?
18 A. I'm sorry, I do apologise, but I'm not an expert in knowing these
19 distances, as the crow flies. But I could say it was 500 or 600 metres,
20 maybe even less, 400 metres, as the crow flies.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. MOELLER: Could we take a snap-shot of this picture, please.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC70, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 MS. MOELLER:
1 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you know what a T-55 tank is?
2 A. I didn't see the numbers, because I could not verify the exact
3 number from here, whether it was 55 or another asphalt -- or another
5 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
6 MS. MOELLER:
7 Q. I assume it is a specific tank model, and my question would be:
8 Would you have the knowledge to distinguish different kinds of military
9 tanks from each other?
10 A. If you show me the pictures, I can distinguish different kinds.
11 If you show me pictures of tanks.
12 Q. But could you describe, without seeing any picture, what a T-55
13 tank actually is, how such a tank looks like? Or are you unfamiliar with
14 these specifications?
15 A. You see, I'm a farmer; I'm not an expert in these things. I
16 cannot draw a tank and all its differences.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we understand the point, Ms. Moeller --
18 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: -- but one of the weaknesses of it is that it was
20 your investigator who asked the question.
21 MS. MOELLER: That's correct, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you said that armoured vehicles also entered the
23 village. Could you show on this picture where you saw them closer to the
24 village or in the village? And could the usher give you a pen.
25 A. This road goes inside the village and links up with this road
1 here. It's a crossroads, but you cannot see it from the trees. There are
2 trees now; there weren't trees then. So it is along these houses. Tanks
3 were here and here, those that I saw. But people said that there were
4 tanks on this side as well, but I didn't see that myself. I'm only
5 testifying about things that I saw.
6 Q. Yes.
7 MS. MOELLER: Is this a clear marking, Your Honour?
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's an answer to a question that wasn't
9 asked, because, as I understand it, it was APCs which were in the village
10 and now you've got an answer about tanks being somewhere different from
11 the answers we've had already. So I think it would be helpful if you
12 could clarify it, and if you could also clarify what the various "heres"
13 we're referring to, because they don't show up on the map.
14 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
15 Q. Mr. Ramadani, could you assist the Judges. The two dots that you
16 made towards the direction of the village from the asphalt road, what
17 vehicles did you see there? What kind of vehicles?
18 A. I think I've already explained that. The armoured vehicles were
19 on this road here, while the tanks and the Pragas were along the asphalt
20 road. These were here at the entrance into the village.
21 Q. Can you draw a bigger line where you saw the armoured vehicles
22 going and up to which point.
23 A. The armoured vehicle was parked here. It was parked here. This
24 road goes to Krusha e Madhe. You cannot see it from the trees. At that
25 time in March, the trees were not in bloom. You could see it. So this
1 road goes inside the village as well, and also to the cellar and to Krusha
2 e Madhe. These are the crossroads that I mentioned.
3 Q. Could you put a 1 to the places where you saw the armoured
4 vehicles, not the tanks but the APCs.
5 A. The armoured vehicles here, 1, and here, 1.
6 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Ramadani, to torture you with that longer, but it's
7 not really clearly visible on the screen. Could you maybe make a cross at
8 the points which you just drafted where you saw the APCs so that it's
9 clearly distinguishable from the other things.
10 A. I think it's clear. This road passes through the asphalt road and
11 enters into the village. It goes to Krusha e Madhe, this road, and it's
12 not an asphalt road. This is a crossroads. The road goes into the
13 village, to the cellar, and to Krusha e Madhe. The tank was here and
15 Q. Sorry.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that -- you can just wipe that map off --
17 well -- yes, it seems to me we should start again this exercise, if you
18 want to go through it, because I think we're all completely confused now.
19 MS. MOELLER: Yes. Could we start with a fresh -- I'm sorry.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman. Just hold on.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, if the purpose is clarification,
22 it's clearly not working. And I also wonder if this is appropriate
23 re-direct, since the question of vehicles and their location is covered in
24 his statement and should have been covered on direct if it was important
25 to the Prosecution. I don't think it's appropriate re-direct to start
1 with. It's more like direct examination.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that can't be so in light of the
3 cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac. It's plainly open to the Prosecution to
4 try to deal with that issue, which is what I understand is happening.
5 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honours. Thank you.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: But I think it's fair to keep that -- well, let's
7 take a shot of this --
8 THE REGISTRAR: That would be --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: -- as a court exhibit because it reflects the
10 difficulties that were being experienced in dealing with this evidence.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC71, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: And then let's have a fresh copy of this exhibit on
13 the screen. That's page 2 of P99.
14 MS. MOELLER:
15 Q. Mr. Ramadani --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Bear in mind that there's just a possibility -
17 although I don't know if it's the case - there's just a possibility that
18 there's an interpretational difficulty here as well and that it's
19 important to be very clear -- that you clearly identify the vehicles that
20 you are asking the witness to locate on the photograph.
21 MS. MOELLER: Yes, I will try so, Your Honour. Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Ramadani, could you now, first of all, draw a line from the
23 street that leads from the Djakovica-Prizren road into your village. And
24 you can draw it over the parts where you can't see the street because of
25 the trees. But can you just indicate from the main road into your village
1 by drawing a red line so that it gets understandable for us where this
2 road goes. Just one continuing line, please.
3 A. Yes. I know that road very well. Maybe it's not clear to you,
4 but I know it very well. This road goes like this. From here it turns
5 here, to Krusha e Madhe; on this side it continues along this line. This
6 is Dimitrije's house, where the police was stationed. And then it links
7 up with this road here and with this one here. So this road goes to
8 Batush, this road goes here, and this one goes to these houses here. And
9 then up here and up to the asphalt road. So this is --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: So that's --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the road which again links up
12 here with the main road Prizren-Gjakova. I think it's clear.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: That is very clear now. Thank you.
14 MS. MOELLER:
15 Q. Yes, it is very clear now. And, Mr. Ramadani, could you now make
16 a cross wherever, on this road that you just showed, you saw an armoured
17 vehicle, an APC. Not a military tank, but an armoured vehicle.
18 A. An armoured vehicle, yes.
19 Q. Can you make a big cross where you saw them.
20 A. Here.
21 Q. Anywhere else? Or are these the spots where you saw them?
22 A. They were also at the wine cellar, but I couldn't see that from my
23 house. This part can be seen from my house. There is an entry road from
24 the main road here, on this side. So this is the side that I could see
25 from my house, and I saw these two here.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: The record should reflect that there are two
3 crosses; one is near to the junction with the main road and the other one
4 is more or less at the end of the road, leading towards the right of the
6 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Ramadani, could you make a circle where you saw military
9 A. You cannot see Suka Brdo from here.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that the witness drew four
12 circles on the right-hand upper corner on the main road Gjakova-Prizren,
14 Q. Now, Mr. Ramadani, when you drew the streets -- the road into your
15 village, you also made a tiny dot where Nikolic's house was, where you
16 said the police was at. Could you put a triangle where you indicated this
18 A. This is Dimitrije's house. I will mark it with a cross.
19 Q. Yes. And can you make a circle around this cross, please, the
20 cross you just drafted.
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that the witness put a cross
24 with a circle around it at the location where Nikolic's house was, where
25 the police was at. And I think that should clarify now the issues.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
2 MS. MOELLER: Could we take a snap-shot, please.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC72, Your Honours.
5 MS. MOELLER: And we can remove the exhibit from the screen.
6 Q. Mr. Ramadani, in cross-examination you mentioned that Dimitrije
7 Nikolic had a kind of cafe in the village and that Serbs used to gather
8 there. Did you see people in uniform gathering there, or were all these
9 people in civilian clothes?
10 A. That is where they drew up their plans. They went there in the
11 morning, the young people of the village. Then the policemen came with
12 uniform. When the children went to school, when our children went to
13 school, they threatened them with their guns: "Why do you go to school?
14 What are you looking for? Are you asking for Americans and NATO?"
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ramadani, that's not the question you were
16 asked, and this is important at this stage in the evidence. We can't take
17 account of this additional material that you are presenting now because of
18 the procedure that we follow here. It's important you listen --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: -- you listen to the question. And the question
21 was: "Did you see people in uniform gathering at this cafe, or were the
22 people who went there in civilian clothes?" Now, could you concentrate
23 your answer on that answer, please.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both civilians and uniformed.
25 MS. MOELLER:
1 Q. And when did you see those two groups of people gathered there, on
2 what dates, if you can remember?
3 A. From 1996 they used to meet there regularly, in the afternoon.
4 During the day the police stayed there.
5 Q. And on the 25th, in the morning, did you also see people civilian
6 clothes and uniforms gathered there?
7 A. On the 25th we did not dare to leave the house. It was just to
8 escape that we left. We went towards the stream. There were gun-shots,
9 and it was impossible to go out and see because of the bullets.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, one last question. In cross-examination a name
11 was mentioned, Nebojsa Nikolic. Do you know who that is?
12 A. Nebojsa Nikolic? It's not Nebojsa Nikolic but Nebojsa Djordjevic,
13 I think. Nebojsa Djordjevic.
14 Q. Who was this person that you referred to? Was he from Mala Krusa,
15 Krusha e Vogel?
16 A. Yes, from Krusha e Vogel.
17 Q. And do you know where he worked?
18 A. He worked in Prizren. Well, they could choose where they wanted
19 to work because they did not have problems with employment. He worked in
21 Q. Do you know what was his profession?
22 A. Earlier he was a driver, Nebojsa. He had a truck, but he also
23 wore a uniform. A car -- he was also a car mechanic, as far as I
25 Q. Did you see him on the 25th or the 26th of March in your village?
1 A. I couldn't see on the 25th whether he was there or not. Maybe he
2 was, but I didn't see him.
3 Q. Very well.
4 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I think that completes my questions.
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ramadani, what kind of uniform did he
8 A. I think I explained earlier that they wore all kinds of uniforms.
9 They wore army uniforms, police uniforms, all kinds of uniforms.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: The problem with your earlier evidence is that you
11 plainly called a person Nebojsa Nikolic, and you now seem to be clarifying
12 that. That's why you're being asked more questions about the person. So
13 could you tell me again what uniforms you saw him wearing?
14 A. Earlier he was a driver, a civilian. And sometime later I saw him
15 wearing police uniforms, not the army uniforms.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, is that all you saw him wearing?
17 A. Only the police, not the army uniform.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yesterday in your evidence you said that he
19 sometimes wore paramilitary clothes. Is that not correct?
20 A. I said earlier that they would wear all kinds of clothes.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I understand that. I understand that, but
22 it's him alone I'm interested in. Did you ever see him wearing
23 paramilitary clothes?
24 A. Yes, yes, even paramilitary and police uniform.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, in the course of that re-examination there
1 have been exhibits produced. Does any counsel seek to cross-examine
2 further in this instance? No. Thank you.
3 Well, Mr. Ramadani, that completes your evidence --
4 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, excuse me, could I ask one question in
5 relation to the one question you asked?
6 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the question you want to ask?
7 MS. MOELLER: It refers to paramilitary clothes, because I'm not
8 sure what is meant by "paramilitary uniform". I think he referred to
9 camouflage and black uniforms, but I cannot recall we talked about
10 paramilitary uniforms before.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: The wording I have noted from yesterday's evidence
12 is "sometimes paramilitary clothes". Now --
13 MS. MOELLER: I'm not --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: -- do you disagree that that was the evidence
16 MS. MOELLER: I think it wasn't.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, you don't think it was?
18 MS. MOELLER: I'm not sure whether it was clarified, what was
19 meant by that. But I'm in Your Honour's hands for this.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thinking only, Mr. Ramadani, of the person you've
21 now called Nebojsa Djordjevic, when you say that you have seen him in a
22 paramilitary uniform, could you describe that, please.
23 A. I'm not very good with colours. Colours were various. There were
24 camouflage, you know, multi-coloured clothes; blue uniforms, black
25 uniforms. They were not quite black, but I call them black.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, it may be important that you're clear in your
2 mind that we're asking about paramilitary uniform, not police uniform at
3 this stage, paramilitary, and in relation only to that one person,
4 Djordjevic. So what's your final answer about the description of the
5 paramilitary uniform that you have seen him wear?
6 A. The paramilitary uniform was kind of multi-coloured, not exactly
7 blue. I don't know what to call it.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, thank you, Mr. Ramadani. That does complete
9 your evidence. It's important that you understand that while, naturally,
10 you're principally concerned in your mind with the tragic events that
11 you've described to us, we have to concentrate here on trying to identify
12 if there is some person to be held accountable for these events, and
13 that's why questions have concentrated on different issues from the ones
14 that you might see as the most important ones. But rest assured that
15 we're concentrating on the job of trying to identify whether crimes have
16 been committed and whether there are persons to be held accountable for
17 these crimes.
18 So thank you, once again, for coming to the Tribunal to give your
19 evidence. You're now free to leave.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.
21 Thank you.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.
24 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, the next witness is Mr. Mehmet
25 Krasniqi, who formerly called himself Mehmet Avdyli.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: And this is the same event?
2 MS. MOELLER: This is the same event. He is another one of the
3 six survivors of this killing and his evidence relates to the same
4 paragraphs as Mr. Ramadani's evidence. I don't know whether you want me
5 to repeat them.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't need to, and we have a transcript and a
7 statement in this instance, or statements, rather.
8 MS. MOELLER: Yes, indeed. He is a 92 ter witness --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 MS. MOELLER: -- formerly 92 bis (D).
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
16 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed
17 before you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
21 Now, Mr. Krasniqi, you're going to be asked questions to clarify
22 points in the evidence you gave before, perhaps to challenge that
23 evidence, and also to add certain information to that evidence. The
24 important thing to remember is that we've got all this evidence that
25 you've given before in front of us and we want to concentrate on anything
1 extra that you can say to clarify it or to add to it rather than go back
2 over the same area again, because we already know what you have said
3 before. So please concentrate on the particular question that's being
4 asked and try to confine your answer to the point that is recognised by
5 the question.
6 The first person to ask you questions will be for the Prosecutor,
7 and that will be Ms. Moeller.
8 Ms. Moeller.
9 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 WITNESS: MEHMET KRASNIQI
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Ms. Moeller:
13 Q. Good morning, sir.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. Can you state your name for the record, please.
16 A. Mehmet Krasniqi.
17 Q. Was your last name formerly Avdyli?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And when did you change your name from Avdyli to Krasniqi?
20 A. I changed it in 1999 because my brother, my father, and my sister
21 had the surname Krasniqi, while I had formerly my grandfather's surname,
22 Avdyli. Later on I decided to take the surname of my father, my brother,
23 and my sister, Krasniqi, as the surname of our whole family.
24 Q. And because you changed your last name in 1999, did you sign some
25 statements that you provided to investigators of this Tribunal with the
1 last name Avdyli and others with the last name Krasniqi?
2 A. Well, some said that I should keep the former surname, but I
3 wanted to keep the surname Krasniqi.
4 Q. Sir, when you came here this week, did you show representatives of
5 this Office of the Prosecutor your picture ID card?
6 A. Yes, to all of them.
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Krasniqi, where are you from?
8 A. Krusha e Vogel, municipality of Prizren.
9 Q. And where did you live in March 1999?
10 A. Until the 26th of March, I was in Krusha e Vogel.
11 Q. Are you married?
12 A. Yes. I've got three children.
13 Q. And what is your profession?
14 A. Farmer.
15 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, did you give a statement to investigators of this
16 Tribunal on 4 April 1999?
17 A. Yes, in Kukes.
18 Q. And at this point was also a video taken of your injuries that you
19 had at the time?
20 A. Yes. I was signing things, and also they took photographs of my
21 face and hands.
22 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I would like to play a short
23 video-clip. It's 90 seconds. It's Exhibit P2243 and it's a
24 contemporaneous video taken on 4 April 1999, when the witness was
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Yes, please.
2 [Videotape played]
3 "Today is 4 April 1999, the time is ten to 8.00 in the evening.
4 We are in Kukes with the witness Mehmet Avdyli. He is a witness that
5 comes from Kosovo, from the village of Krusha e Vogel. He sustained ...
6 he allegedly sustained his injuries and burn injuries from being put into
7 a house by Serb policemen, and eventually surviving the attack where 110
8 people perished. They were shot and later burned to death. We are now in
9 a position to place the injuries on a videotape to file as evidence.
10 "Can you tell me what your name is?
11 "Mehmet Avdyli.
12 "And where do you come from?
13 "[Voiceover] From Krusha e Vogel, municipality of Prizren."
14 MS. MOELLER: There's a second small clip.
15 [Videotape played]
16 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, how was your condition at that time? That was
18 roughly less than ten days after the incident.
19 A. My condition?
20 Q. Yes. How did you feel at that time? How was your physical state?
21 A. Well, I had fever, was in a lot of pain, all these things. But I
22 thanked God that I was able to survive from the massacre. So I felt
23 better that I was alive, because all the rest died, perished, and their
24 remains have not been found to this day. They just disappeared.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Krasniqi, did you give a further statement to the
1 Tribunal in 2001, on 5 October?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on 7 March 2002, did you sign a declaration in which you
4 declared that both the statements you had given before were true and
5 correct, to the best of your knowledge?
6 A. Yes. I've given statements. I've given statements to the people
7 from the Tribunal, and I've told the whole truth.
8 Q. Yes. And when you were seen in 2002, did you make some
9 corrections to the two statements you had given previously, and were two
10 addendums made in this regard?
11 A. Yes, yes. I think so. Yes, yes.
12 Q. When you came here this week, did you have the opportunity to read
13 through the two statements and the two addendums?
14 A. I don't remember. It's been a long time, four years ago.
15 Q. No, I think we misunderstood each other. This week, when you
16 arrived here in The Hague, were you shown your previous statements, four
18 A. Yes. Yes, yes. All of them. I thought I did not understand the
19 question correctly.
20 Q. Yes. And did you look through all of them, read through them, or
21 have them read to you?
22 A. Yes, we read all of them.
23 Q. And do you declare today to these honourable Judges that these
24 statements accurately reflect your testimony, and if you would testify
25 today, that you would say the same?
1 A. Exactly the same. I've always said the same things, the truth.
2 Q. Yes. Thank you.
3 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, at this point I would like to tender
4 Exhibit P2341, which are the statements and the declaration, and Exhibit
5 P2243, which is the short video-clip shown.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 Should we deal with the transcript now as well?
8 MS. MOELLER: Yes. I'm going on to that. I just have to correct
9 myself. The video is Exhibit P2343.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 MS. MOELLER:
12 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, in 2002 did you come here to this Tribunal and
13 testify in the trial against Slobodan Milosevic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And do you declare that you gave a true and correct testimony then
16 in this trial?
17 A. Yes, the whole truth.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. MOELLER: I would also wish to tender Exhibit P2342, which is
20 the transcript.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 Now, is that a convenient moment to interrupt?
23 MS. MOELLER: I think it would be, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 Mr. Krasniqi, we need to have a break now and we will be resuming
1 at 11.00. The usher will show you to where you can wait meanwhile, so can
2 you please leave the court. Thank you.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall resume at 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Krasniqi, your evidence will now continue.
9 Ms. Moeller.
10 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, in your statement, you said that on 25 March, in the
12 morning, you were awoken by tanks close to your houses. What kind of
13 tanks were these? Were they military tanks?
14 A. Military and all kinds of tanks.
15 Q. What were the other kinds of tanks that you mean by "all kinds,"
16 if you know?
17 A. Tanks, armoured vehicles, Pragas, heavy artillery.
18 Q. And how close were they to the houses in the village where you
20 A. Along the Prizren-Gjakova main asphalt road, they were there,
21 because this road runs in the outskirts of the village.
22 Q. And how far away, approximately, was your house from this road?
23 A. About 250 metres.
24 Q. Did you see that day also any persons in uniforms entering your
1 A. That day, on Thursday, in the morning the entire population fled
2 to the mountain, and I didn't see any that morning.
3 Q. And on the next morning, on the 26th of March, you say in your
4 statement that a group of 15 policemen made you and the others come out of
5 the woods. How did these policemen look? What did they wear?
6 A. They had different uniforms; camouflage uniforms and military
8 Q. What colour had their military clothes, if you remember?
9 A. They had this dark yellow colour with a pattern.
10 Q. When you say "yellow" -- or let me ask differently. What colour
11 is the shirt that you wear today?
12 A. This colour it was, but darker, much darker, and with a pattern.
13 And the other was grass colour with a pattern, the military colour.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, may the record reflect that the
16 witness is wearing a blue shirt with some white stripes.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 MS. MOELLER:
19 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, that day of 26th March, when the killing in the
20 Batusha cowshed occurred, did you notice Serb villagers that you knew from
21 before being present there?
22 A. At that moment we couldn't see that because we were made to put
23 our hands behind our heads and kneel. And only when we were taken to the
24 cowshed and executed, a student, Shefqet Shehu from Krusha e Vogel, who
25 studied in Pristina, he stood up after the shots were fired and saw a Serb
1 from the village, from the window. He had a fire-arm, his weapon. And he
2 said to them, "Momcilo, neighbour, you are doing this?" And he opened
3 fire again until he ran out of bullets.
4 Q. And where were you when Shefqet Shehu said these words? Where
5 were you in relation to him, to Shefqet?
6 A. I was in that room, in the same room where the bodies fell on me.
7 I kept silent because the bodies were on me. I had Muharrem Asllani
8 behind me and he was really heavy. And Zenun Adnani bled on me. I was --
9 I could hear the screams and cries of people who were injured; some
10 lightly and some seriously. And after that they set the cowshed on fire.
11 They threw this kind of liquid; it had a very strange smell. I was there
12 until they started to put straw and hay on the bodies.
13 Q. Let me stop you here for a second. I was just trying to clarify
14 whether you heard, yourself, Shefqet Shehu saying these words, "Momcilo,
15 neighbour, you're doing this?" Did you hear that yourself?
16 A. Yes, I heard it myself. I was in the same room with him.
17 Q. And who do you think he was referring to when he said "Momcilo"?
18 A. He was referring to a Serb from the village whom he knew.
19 Q. And would you know what was the last name of this Momcilo?
20 A. Momcilo Nikolic.
21 Q. Thank you. But you, yourself, at that moment, you didn't look
22 around. You didn't see Momcilo Nikolic yourself, did you?
23 A. No, I couldn't see him because the bodies were on my back. After
24 they put the hay on the bodies, I was on the ground when the smoke came.
25 I said to myself, "It's better for me to leave this room and better to die
1 from a bullet than from this fire." So when I was leaving the cowshed, I
2 didn't have time to stop and look.
3 Q. Thank you. When you -- after you managed to leave the shed which
4 was on fire, you stated that you retreated into the forest and stayed in
5 the vicinity of your village for about two days. What did you observe
6 going on in the village in these two days?
7 A. The Serbs from the village were collecting hay and they were
8 putting the hay on the bodies for the bodies to be burned.
9 Q. During these two days, were there also uniformed persons still in
10 the village that you did not know, who were not Serbs from the village?
11 A. I was in the mountains. I didn't dare go out during the day. In
12 the evenings, I couldn't go any nearer to the village. I just wanted to
13 go as far as possible from it.
14 Q. So could you actually recognise who were the persons who put more
15 hay on the bodies in the cowshed, or was it too far away?
16 A. It was far away. It was also dark. They were about 150 metres
18 Q. Okay. Mr. Krasniqi, I would now go with you to the point when you
19 arrived in Nagavc. You said in your statement that you were treated by a
20 Dr. Xhemal Dana. Were you treated by any other doctor in Nagavc while you
21 were there?
22 A. When I went to Nagavc village, I met Dr. Ali Hoti. He treated me
23 that day with scarce medicaments he had. And after some time I met Xhemal
24 Dana in another house in Nagavc but he didn't have any medicine.
25 Therefore, for the days I spent in Nagavc, up to the 2nd of April, he
1 treated me with natural medicine. He would put yoghurt on my hands to
2 take the fever away.
3 Q. Yes. Thank you. Mr. Krasniqi, in the first statement you gave
4 very close to the events, you included a list of the men who were with you
5 in the barn and who, according to your knowledge, died in this barn. Is
6 that correct?
7 A. It is fully correct, because to this day their own children ask
8 themselves where the bodies of their fathers are. Every child wonders
9 where the grave of his father is, and we don't know where their graves
10 are, where their traces are, where their bones lie.
11 Q. And in this list, you also referred to Lutfi Ramadani being among
12 them. At that time, on 4 April 1999, did you know that Lutfi Ramadani was
13 alive? Did you see him during these events, or at any time before you
14 gave the statement?
15 A. When we were taken to the cowshed where we were executed and set
16 on fire, I know that everybody went in that room. But when I left, I knew
17 that I was the only one who left. I didn't know at that time that Lutfi
18 and certain other persons left the room as well. It is six of us who
19 survived that massacre.
20 Q. And did you also advise the Office of the Prosecutor in a later
21 statement that you gave that one more person that was in your first
22 statement, a young boy called Sefer Batusha, was not dead but alive.
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I would like to point out at this
25 stage that Schedule C does contain the name of Sefer Batusha. The
1 schedules were reviewed when we amended the indictment, but that name must
2 have slipped through. So we will not lead evidence, of course, in regard
3 to him being dead.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: So should we delete that name from the indictment?
5 MS. MOELLER: Yes, please.
6 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. The position is noted, Ms. Moeller.
8 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, when did you return to Mala Krusa after this event,
11 A. I returned on the 26th of June, at 2.00 a.m. In a car with a
12 cousin of mine - my wife and children were with me - we all returned to
13 Krusha e Vogel.
14 Q. And have you lived in Krusha e Vogel since?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And apart from Lutfi Ramadani and Sefer Batusha, have you seen any
17 of the men you listed in your statement being alive since you last saw
18 them in the Batusha cowshed?
19 A. No, they were not seen alive.
20 Q. And have any of the relatives, who live in your village, of these
21 men ever said anything to the effect that they saw any of their relatives
22 being alive?
23 A. No. Nobody said that they were alive.
24 Q. After you returned to Krusha e Vogel, did you go back to the
25 Batusha barn or cowshed?
1 A. Yes. Together with some people from the village who asked me
2 about those people, we went there to see. We found some remains of a
3 skull, remains of ribs and legs, and some shoes. They had cleaned the
4 place and they had mined it. And the place is -- to this date, you can
5 see that it was mined. There is a hole. And we have also found
7 Q. And do you know what happened to the cowshed?
8 A. They had carried all the concrete blocks to Drini. Some men from
9 the village had found some remains there as well, and they could identify
10 14 bodies, other bodies except -- in addition to the 100 and more bodies
11 of those men that I've mentioned.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi.
13 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I noticed that I've reached the 30
14 minutes. I would, with your leave, like to show this witness one picture
15 of the Drini River and I would have one final question for him after that.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't understand the last answer, Ms. Moeller.
17 "They had carried all the concrete blocks to Drini."
18 MS. MOELLER: Yes, I would like to --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that the men from the village?
20 MS. MOELLER: -- I would like to clarify that.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Please do that.
22 MS. MOELLER:
23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, who do you mean when you say, "They carried the
24 concrete blocks to the Drini"? Who were "they"?
25 A. Those who cleaned the area, who burned all those men, they took
1 everything - the remains, the blocks - to Drini River, the Serbs from the
2 village. I was not there to see who exactly did that, but it was the
3 Serbs from the village.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. MOELLER: Could we call up Exhibit 102, page 2, please.
6 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, could you have a look at this picture and say
7 whether you recognise that.
8 A. Yes, this is Drini River.
9 Q. And did you go there after you returned to your village?
10 A. Not to the place where they brought these concrete blocks. I
11 couldn't go there. I didn't feel very well to go and see things that
12 reminded me of what had happened in the village. Other men from the
13 village went there.
14 Q. And it was these men who told you about it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Krasniqi, my two last questions are: How is the
17 situation today in Krusha e Vogel for the people there?
18 A. Today the population has decreased in Krusha e Vogel. The 100 and
19 more people that were massacred are unaccounted for. Children have grown
20 up. They have started to go to school, started to work. This is how I
21 can describe it.
22 Q. Okay. And how are you feeling today, Mr. Krasniqi, after all you
23 went through?
24 A. I don't feel well, but I believe in God and I took an oath before
25 God to look after myself because I really don't feel very well. I have
1 gone through a lot. Whenever I discuss the massacre that occurred in the
2 village with anyone, I feel the trauma that I suffered.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi.
4 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I would have no further questions.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 Mr. O'Sullivan.
7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we will follow the indictment, and I
8 have no questions.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no questions.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that Mr.
13 O'Sullivan made a mistake. I'm supposed to go last. I've just spoken to
14 my colleague Mr. Lukic now.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
16 Mr. Ackerman.
17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. Thank
18 you. We have no questions for this witness. Thank you.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 Mr. Cepic.
21 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll have
22 just a few questions for this witness. Sorry, I have a technical problem
23 as well.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi. I'm Djuro Cepic, one
1 of the lawyers in the Defence team for Mr. Lazarevic. I would like to ask
2 you a few questions. I'll try and be very specific and very clear, and I
3 would kindly ask for short answers.
4 Amongst other statements, you gave a statement on the 5th of
5 October, 2001, to the investigators of the ICTY, and in that statement you
6 describe the uniforms that were carried by the persons on the 26th of
7 March. And, amongst other things, you said that -- you said that there
8 were certain people in blue camouflage uniforms and that they entered
9 Dimitrije Nikolic's house. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Further on you describe certain people as wearing
12 green camouflage uniforms and white bands, and you did not see any
13 insignia on those uniforms. Is that correct?
14 A. No, I didn't see any.
15 Q. Thank you. Further on you describe a group of people who wore a
16 combination of green camouflage trousers and shirts, and you did not see
17 any insignia on those uniforms either. Is that correct?
18 A. No, I did not see any insignia.
19 Q. Thank you. The last group of people also did not wear anything on
20 their heads. Is that correct?
21 A. No. I didn't see anyone with hats.
22 Q. Some of them sported moustaches or beards. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, yes, there were people with beards, not very big beards,
25 Q. And they ranged in age between 30 and 40. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we now display Exhibit 99 and
4 the picture on which the last two digits are 06. Do I need to -- okay,
5 then. Thank you. Could Mr. Krasniqi please be assisted.
6 Q. Here, in this photo, we see your village, Mala Krusa. Mr.
7 Krasniqi, can you show your house on this photo, please.
8 A. If you could enlarge it a little bit, because I can't see very
9 well. Here. My house is this one here.
10 Q. Can you mark it by number 1, please.
11 A. So this is up the road here. You mean -- shall I mark the street
12 or the house?
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --
14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Just the house, please. Thank you.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: -- are you going to be asking for other things to
17 be marked on this map?
18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. No.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that will do, I think, for present purposes.
20 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, from your house to the asphalt road, from Djakovica
22 to Prizren, is some 4 to 500 metres as the crow flies. Is that correct?
23 A. No, it's not 400 metres away. I have not measured the distance,
24 but I gave you an estimation. I don't know what the exact figure would
25 be, but my estimation would be 250 metres.
1 Q. Thank you. In your statement given on the 4th of April, 1999, on
2 page 2, in paragraph 4, you say that around 3.00 in the morning you were
3 woken up by the tanks that had appeared on that road. At 3.00 in the
4 morning it was dark, wasn't it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And from that distance from your house, you could not see the
7 Djakovica-Prizren road at 3.00 in the morning when it was still dark. Is
8 that correct?
9 A. I could see them because they had lights on, and there was such a
10 big noise that we heard. And when they stopped, we could see everything
11 from the house.
12 Q. Thank you. And before that, did you hear a loud detonation and
13 the sound of aeroplanes flying above you on that same night?
14 A. No, I didn't hear any noise from aeroplanes. The night the tanks
15 came, the whole population woke up and left. It was early in the morning.
16 Q. Thank you. I'm not asking you this. Could you please answer my
17 questions. We've already heard that from you. You provided that in your
18 statement; you also said it in the Milosevic case.
19 A. Well, I'm saying here what I heard and what I experienced; I'm not
20 saying anything else.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. During that same night, did you hear a
22 loud powerful detonation, a loud explosion? I'm not asking you about any
23 tanks. I'm asking you about an explosion.
24 A. There was no explosion in my village that night, nothing. I
25 didn't hear any explosion.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this
3 witness, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I do have some questions.
7 One moment, Your Honour.
8 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. I would
9 like to tender the photo into evidence, and can the photo be given a
10 number. I apologise to my learned friend Ivetic for interrupting his
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC73, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi. My name is Dan Ivetic and I am one of
18 the attorneys for Mr. Lukic in these proceedings. I have a few questions
19 for you today, and I would ask you to please focus on my questions to give
20 the most concise and accurate answers as possible.
21 Now, first of all, sir, in your village of Krusha e Vogel, how
22 many ethnic Serbian inhabitants were there in the village as of March
24 A. Could you repeat that again. I couldn't hear.
25 Q. Sure. With respect to your village of Krusha e Vogel, how many
1 ethnic Serbian inhabitants were there in that village as of March of 1999?
2 A. Albanian inhabitants? Oh, Serb inhabitants. I don't know. There
3 were 23 households, but how many of them there were altogether, I don't
5 Q. Okay. You state there were 23 Serb households. Is it accurate
6 that there were about a hundred Albanian households?
7 A. No, there weren't a hundred Albanian households.
8 Q. I apologise. A hundred Albanian houses. Is that accurate?
9 A. Not a hundred Albanian houses. At that time there were about 70.
10 Q. Okay. Now, would it be accurate to state that these Serbian
11 inhabitants of the village consisted of several extended families, such as
12 the Nikolics, the Petkovics, the Stankovics, et cetera?
13 A. Their families, immediate families that they had there.
14 Q. What I'm trying to say is these were larger-sized families,
15 extended families. There were many brothers and --
16 A. Only a few members.
17 Q. Okay. Is it accurate to state that prior to March of 1999,
18 specifically prior to the commencement of the NATO air-strikes, you and
19 the other Albanian villagers had not experienced any violence directed
20 toward you or against you?
21 A. No, we never had any problem with the Serbs. I had my neighbour
22 there who was a Serb, and I never had any problems with him. I don't know
23 why they did what they did that day, that massacre. We would never expect
24 that to happen. We never expected that from them.
25 Q. And now you've explained --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you ask that. You refer to a neighbour who
2 was a Serb. What was his name?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ranko Petkovic.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 MR. IVETIC: Well, that shortens my cross by one question, Your
6 Honour. You're ahead of me.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Krasniqi, first of all, did anyone else in your village
8 change their last name like you did?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Now, I'm focussing about -- I want to focus on the
11 surrounding area around your village, the surrounding villages. Is it
12 accurate to state that there were some so-called KLA forces in the
13 surrounding area, particularly in some of the surrounding villages around
14 Krusha e Vogel in 1999?
15 A. In 1999, we didn't even dare to go up the mountain, we the people
16 of Krusha e Vogel. We didn't dare because of the Serbs, because there
17 were Serb forces in the village. We couldn't go to the forest. I
18 personally did not go to the forest to get firewood for the winter. So
19 that winter we went to the market and bought firewood; we couldn't go to
20 the forest.
21 Q. Now, sir, I thought you had told me that prior to the NATO
22 bombings you had not had any problems with the Serbs. So I don't
23 understand why you would be afraid of moving due to Serbs being there.
24 A. Because they thought ill of us, and we didn't dare go to the
25 mountains for that reason.
1 Q. All right. Well, then, let me ask you a question focussing on
2 your village in particular. Do you know whether there were any persons in
3 your village who were members of the KLA at the time, that is to say, any
4 time from 1998 up until the commencement of the NATO bombings?
5 A. I did not see anything with my own eyes. People spoke about
6 things and they said that there were KLA somewhere else, but not in my
7 village. I'm positive about it.
8 Q. Okay. And did people also speak -- or did you have any knowledge
9 of any kidnappings by the KLA or attacks by the KLA, either in your
10 village or in the surrounding area?
11 A. KLA existed in Kosova, but there was no KLA presence in my village
12 at all.
13 Q. Okay. Did you have knowledge of any kidnappings or attacks by the
14 KLA in the surrounding -- area surrounding your village?
15 A. I heard that they were fighting with the army, but nobody was
16 kidnapped from our village. Not even from surrounding villages. I never
17 heard of such a thing.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to know leading up to the NATO
19 bombings, that is to say, before the NATO bombings began, did you and
20 others in the village hear media reports or otherwise the fact that there
21 was the potential for NATO action against Yugoslavia? Were you able to
22 hear about that or know about that in your village in the days prior to
23 the commencement of the NATO bombings?
24 A. I never read newspapers. I don't follow the news. I mind my own
25 business. I work.
1 Q. Okay. What about the other villagers? Did anyone else in the
2 village talk amongst themselves about the potential that war would come
3 between NATO and Yugoslavia over Kosovo?
4 A. I didn't hear anything about this.
5 Q. Was there any type of fear or tension among the villagers, either
6 the Serbs or the Albanians, in the days preceding the NATO attack?
7 A. Not in the village, no.
8 Q. Okay. Now, another question about the Serbian villagers in your
9 village prior to March of 1999: Is it accurate that many, if not most, of
10 the able-bodied Serb male villagers wore remnants of some kind of uniform,
11 either a blue camouflage uniform or some other uniform and colour?
12 A. Yes, that is correct, because people saw them, the Serbs, in the
13 village in uniforms; army reservists uniforms and other kinds of
14 uniforms. They kept changing their clothes.
15 Q. And when did that start, approximately? Was it long before March
16 of 1999, close to March of 1999? Do you have any time reference for that?
17 A. It was in 1998 that we saw them, that they were wearing various
18 kinds of uniforms.
19 Q. Okay. And now with respect to those persons in your village
20 wearing these various types of uniforms, is it accurate to state that they
21 were employed in regular jobs, that is to say, that their profession did
22 not involve being full-time police or full-time army?
23 A. Yes, we saw them. I'm sure they did some kind of job, or maybe
24 they were unemployed. I did not see them working anywhere. I saw them in
1 Q. Okay. Now, I want to ask you specifically about the ones that
2 were wearing police uniforms, and ask you if, in fact, it is accurate that
3 you do not know what their formal affiliation, if any, with the police
5 A. Well, they went somewhere in those uniforms. I did not ask them
6 where they went.
7 Q. Did they drive around in private civilian cars rather than marked
8 police cars? Isn't that right?
9 A. Private.
10 Q. Okay. And you indicated that these Serb civilians in your village
11 began wearing uniforms in 1998. Is it accurate that they also had guns in
12 addition to the uniforms?
13 A. Yes. They were seen carrying guns. I saw them myself in 1999.
14 Q. Okay. And yet prior to March 25th of 1999, these armed villagers,
15 in various uniforms in your village, did not undertake any attacks upon
16 you or the other ethnic Albanians in the village. Is that correct?
17 A. No. No, not in the village. Not a single villager was attacked.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. IVETIC: One moment.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. All right. Now, I'd like to ask you some specific questions about
23 some specific persons in your village. You talked about a gentleman by
24 the name of Dimitrije Nikolic. Is it correct that he operated a cafe in
25 your village, by profession?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And was --
3 A. Yes, it was a cafe and a pool parlor. They stayed there all the
4 time. There were policemen. There were people in multi-coloured
6 Q. Now, is it correct that -- strike that.
7 Is it correct that the Nikolic family had a large number of
8 members that resided in Krusha e Vogel?
9 A. Yes. There is one family with several members; I don't know how
11 Q. And this Dimitrije Nikolic, is it accurate that he worked at this
12 cafe in the village of Krusha e Madhe, more or less on a daily basis? I'm
13 sorry, Krusha e Vogel.
14 A. In his cafe, yes, of course, he was the owner of that cafe. His
15 son worked there as well. And all the policemen went there in uniforms.
16 Q. When you say "all the policemen went there in uniforms," are we
17 talking about the local villagers in police uniforms?
18 A. No, no. Others. We didn't know them at all.
19 Q. Okay. Now, in your statement from 1999, you state that on the
20 night the NATO air attacks began, all the Serbs turned off their lights
21 and you saw your neighbour went into the basement with his family. Did
22 you have the impression that people in your neighbourhood were concerned
23 for their safety as a result of the NATO planes flying overhead?
24 A. I don't know what they were thinking, whether they were
25 frightened, or what the reason was why they went into the basement. I
1 just know that I saw them going into the basement.
2 Q. Did you know about Albanian households? Did they turn off their
3 lights or go into shelters in the basement?
4 A. I didn't see the Albanian families. I, myself, don't have a
5 basement, so I stayed where I was and I kept my lights on.
6 Q. Had you had a basement, would you have gone in it?
7 A. For what reason? There was no reason for me to go in the
8 basement. The NATO forces were not dealing with families.
9 Q. Okay. Now, in your 1999 statement, you also talk about how, on
10 the morning of the 25th of March, 1999, your household and other Albanian
11 households went to hide in the forests and mountains. I want to ask you:
12 How far were these mountains and forests from, let's say, your home?
13 A. In the outskirts of the village. I've not measured the distance.
14 Some ten minutes on foot. There is a road there that takes you to the
16 Q. Okay. And do you recall what time of day that was? Was it light
17 out or was it still dark out?
18 A. On the 25th of March, it was dawn.
19 Q. Okay. And you state further in your statement that at that time
20 the village started being burnt and that this continued into the next
21 day. Now, from the distance that you were at, could you personally see
22 who was burning the houses in your village?
23 A. No, no. We were far away. We could only see the smoke coming out
24 from the village.
25 Q. Okay. And, in fact, do you know the percentage or number of
1 houses in the village that were burned on this day, in this manner?
2 A. We did not see how many houses were burned on the 25th or the 26th
3 of March. We couldn't see any of that. Nobody was thinking of the number
4 of houses that were on fire. Everybody was concerned with their own
5 families and themselves, whether they will survive or not.
6 Q. I appreciate that. I appreciate that and it makes sense. Now,
7 did you have an opportunity to see whether, in fact, all the Albanian
8 families left the village for this forest area on the morning of 25 March
9 1999; that is to say, in this area where you were located, did you see any
10 families that were not there, that were distinctly not there?
11 A. Yes. There was part of the village that fled in the direction of
13 Q. Do you know if any of the Albanian families remained in the
14 village that day and even the next day, the 26th of March, 1999?
15 A. Not a single family remained in the village on the 25th or 26th of
16 March. They cleansed the village of all the villagers.
17 Q. Are you familiar with the Hajdari family, Isuf and his family?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know whether they left the village on the 25th of March,
21 A. Nobody knew whether he fled the village on that day with his
22 family or if he was killed or if he was burned. We only knew about the
23 people who came to the outskirts of the village in the mountains. This is
24 how I learned that not all the villagers had escaped to the outskirts of
25 the village in the mountains.
1 Q. Okay. Now, going onward with this 1999 statement, you state at
2 this time, while you were in the forest area, you saw MUP policemen taking
3 away vehicles and tractors. Now, first of all, I want to ask you: How
4 could you see that it was policemen who were taking these things?
5 A. You could see their uniforms. They had police uniforms.
6 Q. From that distance, could you identify whether these persons in
7 those uniforms were, in fact, local villagers from your village or not?
8 A. I could not identify what they were. Of course there were local
9 villagers as well, together with them.
10 Q. Okay. Now, you go on to state that at that time 15 policemen came
11 into the forest where the people were hiding, and you saw -- according to
12 your statement, you saw three policemen with white ribbons tied around
13 their arms giving instructions. Now, I want to ask you: What kind of
14 uniforms were these three persons with white ribbons wearing so as to
15 permit you to conclude that they were policemen?
16 A. They had all kinds of clothes, all kinds of uniforms. They had
17 ribbons around their upper arm. They would issue orders. What should I
18 call them?
19 Q. Well, what I'm trying to differentiate is whether everyone had
20 these white ribbons tied around their arms or whether there were only
21 certain individuals in particular who had the white ribbons tied around
22 their arms.
23 A. Some of them.
24 Q. Okay. And if I can perhaps refresh your recollection, you gave a
25 statement to the ICTY on 5 October 2001 wherein you stated that the
1 persons with the white ribbons tied around their arms were, in fact,
2 paramilitaries in green camouflage uniforms. Do you recall saying that?
3 A. Yes. As I said, they would change uniforms. They always changed
5 Q. Okay. And in your March 7, 2002, addendum statement you further
6 clarify that these particular three paramilitaries with the white ribbons
7 tied around their arms also had yellow bands on the left side of their
8 chest. Do you remember that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. And now the 15 policemen that you said came there, did
11 these 15 individuals wear the same uniform, or did they also have a
12 variety of uniforms on?
13 A. Some had the same uniform; some had other uniforms. Not all of
14 them had the same uniform.
15 Q. Okay. Now, who directed the women and children to go to Albania
16 at this point in time, if you know?
17 A. Those who were there told the women, "You can either go and drown
18 yourselves in Drini or go to Albania."
19 Q. Did you personally hear these words?
20 A. Yes, I personally heard these words.
21 Q. Were they spoken in Serbian or Albanian?
22 A. In Serbian.
23 Q. And did you recognise the voice of the speaker?
24 A. I heard his voice, yes.
25 Q. I'm asking, did you recognise the voice as someone you knew?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. Now, was it the same people in various uniforms that forced
3 you to kneel, said NATO would rescue you soon, and then escorted you to
4 the house of Haxhi Batusha?
5 A. We didn't know them. We had our hands above our heads. We were
6 kneeling down. We didn't even dare look at them.
7 Q. Okay. Now, I need a little bit of clarification as to where you
8 were taken. In your statement, you reference someone -- that this was the
9 home of -- the house of Haxhi Batucha, that's H-a-x-h-i, last name,
10 B-a-t-u-c-h-a, but I have reason to believe that you've also referred to
11 this location as the house of Razim Batusha. Which is the correct
12 identity of the person who's house this was?
13 A. Rasim Batusha is Haxhi's father. Rasim Batusha was in Germany,
14 but we called his house Batusha's house. Rasim Batusha is now at home,
15 while Haxhi Batusha is missing, together with 28 members of his family.
16 Q. Okay. And so we're talking about just one house. Is that
18 A. Yes, it's the same house.
19 Q. And is this the house where you and the other persons from the
20 village were led and where the shooting occurred? A. Yes.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there also a person called Qazim Batusha?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The grandfather of Haxhi Batusha.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. And, sir, for clarification purposes during the direct examination
1 this structure was referred to as a barn or cowshed, whereas in your
2 written statement throughout it's referred to as a house; and, in fact,
3 now we've been talking about it as a house. What, in fact, was this
5 A. When it was built, it was a two-room house with a corridor. When
6 we were taken to that house, a part of it had hay inside. The part where
7 I was, on the right side, it had hay inside. So that's why we called it a
8 barn and sometimes a house. But, to me, that's not important. The
9 important thing is that people are missing.
10 Q. Okay. Just one more question about that structure itself. Did
11 the windows -- were the windows finished; that is to say, did the windows
12 have glass in them, or were they open?
13 A. There were windows but no glass.
14 Q. Okay. And you already testified in direct that Shefqet Shehu
15 called out to one of the local Serbs from the village who was there, and
16 then that the shooting started and continued until he was out of bullets.
17 Do you know how long, approximately, the shooting lasted? Was it just
18 this one -- this one individual shooting, or were there multiple persons
19 shooting? And how long did the shooting last?
20 A. After they executed the people in that room, Shefqet Shehu was
21 lying down. He stood up. They did not call for him to stand up and be
22 executed, but he thought that they were no longer there. He wanted to
23 escape. But this Serb from the village happened to be there at the
24 window. So when Shefqet saw him, he said to him, "Neighbour, you are
25 doing this?" And then he started shooting again. But I cannot tell you
1 the exact time, how long this firing lasted.
2 Q. Okay. That's fair enough. Now --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just hold on.
4 Were you able to tell at all whether there was only one person
5 shooting or whether there was more than one person?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my room there was only one person
7 who was shooting through the window.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 MR. IVETIC: Can I continue?
10 Q. And after -- at some point in time the individuals there from the
11 village started a fire by throwing stuff on the bodies, and you were there
12 inside the structure at the time. Do you have any more specific of an
13 idea of how long you were in this burning structure, more specific than
14 what you stated in your statement that you had been pushed into the house
15 at about 1100 hours and escaped at about 1500 hours? Can you narrow down
16 that four-hour span of time to tell us how long you were in there after
17 the fire had started?
18 A. After the fire started, all of us who were injured were blocked by
19 the fire. When they threw this hay on the bodies, the smoke came down and
20 then I stood up and decided to go outside and rather die from a bullet. I
21 did not pay attention to how long I stayed there. That was of no interest
22 to me because of what was happening.
23 Q. Okay. And when you left that structure and went to your uncle's
24 house -- first of all, how far was your uncle's house that you escaped
25 to? Where was it located?
1 A. From my uncle's house, there was only this narrow path that I took
2 when I jumped off the window, and I went to the basement of my uncle's
4 Q. Okay. And your uncle's house is in the adjacent lot next to the
5 Batusha house. Is that correct?
6 A. Next to the house where the execution was carried out and where
7 these men were burned.
8 Q. Okay. Now, in your original statement from 1999, you stated that
9 you thereafter saw two policemen who added more corn/maize to the fire to
10 feed the fire, but today you said that these were actually villagers from
11 your village who did this, although you could not recall whether you saw
12 persons in uniform.
13 I'd like to refresh your recollection with your statement dated
14 the 7th of March of 2002, which is also entered in evidence, where you
15 state corrections to your original statement, and you say:
16 "As concerns the placing of dried maize stocks on top of the dead
17 bodies, I wish to make a correction. This was done by two Serb civilians
18 called Slavisa Petkovic and Ljubisa Stankovic, who were not wearing police
19 uniforms. I know them very well as we used to sell vegetables together in
20 the market."
21 Do you recall identifying the people who added the corn/maize to
22 the fire as being two individuals from the village that you used to sell
23 vegetables together with?
24 A. When I left the cowshed and went to my uncle's house's basement,
25 after that I climbed on the second floor. And from there I could see the
1 stable of Krasniqi, and the dried cornstalks from there were thrown on the
3 Q. By these two civilian villagers from your village, Petkovic and
4 Stankovic. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, I saw both of them.
6 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall making a handwritten statement in 1999
7 sometime after you returned from Albania wherein you identified the
8 persons who took part in all the crimes you saw and testified about in
9 Krusha e Vogel on the 25th of March and the 26th of March, 1999?
10 A. I don't know. Maybe I did, but I don't know that.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. IVETIC: Well, I would ask the court officer to put up on
13 e-court Exhibit 6D89. The first three pages of that exhibit are the
14 English translation received from the Office of the Prosecutor. I would
15 ask that the fourth page of that exhibit be placed on the e-court for the
17 Q. Sir, if you could look at the screen. Do you recognise this
18 handwritten document and --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- do you remember writing it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you remember writing it as well?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And if I can direct your attention to the next page in
25 e-court, the second page of the handwritten document. First of all, sir,
1 do you recall when, in fact, you wrote this document?
2 A. No, I don't remember that.
3 Q. Okay. But do you recall turning it in to the international
4 authorities that were in Kosovo at the time?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Okay. If you look at this page that's up on the screen now, there
7 is a list of some persons. In fact, you list some 37 persons by name,
8 labelled as "Serb War Criminals of Krusha e Vogel," and then there are
9 three persons who are identified as being sons of number 26 on that list
10 without any names for them. Are these all the local Serbs from your
11 village, that is to say, neighbours of yours?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And are these all persons who participated in committing crimes
14 against you and others in your village on the 25th and the 26th of March,
16 A. I didn't see them taking part in that. But as for Momcilo
17 Nikolic, that, Shefqet saw, and I heard from Shefqet that he participated
18 in the execution. I've seen Dobri Petrovic's -- Petkovic's sons with
19 weapons in their hands on the 25th of March, 1999, in the afternoon.
20 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall -- while you were in Albania, do you
21 recall giving an interview to someone from either the OSCE or the
22 International Crisis Group?
23 A. I don't know to whom I was giving the statement. Maybe I did give
24 to this organisation, but I don't remember.
25 Q. Okay. Well, then, just let me ask you a general question that
1 hopefully you will be able to answer. Do you recall giving an interview
2 to anyone in Albania wherein you described that, while you were watching
3 what was going on in your village that night, you saw certain of the
4 persons involved, the perpetrators, injecting drugs by way of a small
5 vial, smaller than a cigarette lighter, into themselves?
6 A. No, I don't remember these as being my words.
7 Q. Okay. I have a few more questions for you. In your village, is
8 there a small bridge that goes over a river?
9 A. A stream? On both sides of the village there is one.
10 Q. So there's a total of two bridges and they cross a stream rather
11 than a river. Is that accurate?
12 A. Yes, above the streams.
13 Q. And is one of these bridges near the entrance to the village, that
14 is to say, near the main road Prizren-Djakovica?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And --
17 A. The main Gjakova-Prizren road, there are two bridges over that
18 road. No other bridges.
19 Q. I am talking about bridges crossing a stream or some other body of
20 water. Is there one that is near the entrance to the village from the
21 main road? And when I say "near," I don't know the actual distance, so it
22 might be a little bit further away. But is there one that is closer to
23 the entrance to the village than the other bridge?
24 A. Yes, on the main road Prizren-Gjakova, between the villages of
25 Krusha e Madhe and Krusha e Vogel. If you're asking about the entrance to
1 the village, I think that's the bridge you mean.
2 Q. Is there a bridge towards the Drini?
3 A. No, not towards the Drin.
4 Q. Okay. On either the 25th of March or the 26th of March, 1999, was
5 there any fighting that you were aware of around the area of any of the
6 bridges in your village between the members of the KLA, on the one hand,
7 and Serb forces, on the other hand?
8 A. I don't know anything about that.
9 Q. Did any of the bridges, in fact, become damaged during the war;
10 that is to say, did any of these bridges in the village appear to be
11 damaged when you returned to the village from Albania?
12 A. Not in Krusha e Vogel, not even in Krusha e Madhe. The bridge
13 between the two villages was not damaged, no.
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Krasniqi, we have to interrupt now for
18 the break at lunchtime. You should --
19 MR. VISNJIC: Your Honour.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry.
21 MR. VISNJIC: I'd just make a suggestion.
22 [Interpretation] My questions for this witness have been
23 exhausted, actually, but he did raise a topic on page 49, lines 17 to 25,
24 and I would like to put three or four questions regarding that. Now, I
25 don't know how to deal with it. Can I do it now? Or would you allow that
1 to happen in the first place? Should we just leave it for later?
2 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I'm happy, as long as it's fairly brief, Mr.
3 Visnjic. Carry on and see how you get on, then.
4 Mr. Krasniqi, it looks as though we could finish your evidence,
5 possibly finish it, if we continue just now before our lunch break, so Mr.
6 Visnjic will ask his questions now.
7 Mr. Visnjic.
8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krasniqi, today you said that in 1999 you
11 could not go to the mountains, that is to say, the inhabitants of Mala
12 Krusa, and that inter alia you, yourself, did not go into the forest to
13 get firewood because you were afraid of the Serb forces that were in the
14 village. Mr. Krasniqi, is it correct that in the forests above your
15 village there were members of the KLA in the winter of 1999?
16 A. No. I never saw anyone. We just didn't go there because we
17 didn't want the Serbs in the village to think ill of us.
18 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, do you know a person by the name of Cvetko Nikolic
19 from the village of Mala Krusa?
20 A. No, I don't remember.
21 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, will it perhaps jog your memory if I tell you that
22 on the 27th of February, 1999, above the village of Mala Krusa, members of
23 the KLA abducted Cvetko Nikolic; and after this kidnapping they took him
24 to an illegal KLA prison in the village of Randobrava, also in the
25 municipality of Prizren? Mr. Krasniqi, how far away is Randobrava from
1 your village? Isn't it about 2 kilometres away?
2 A. It's far away. I don't know how far away exactly that is. I
3 can't tell you.
4 Q. Yes. Do you know about any one of the Serbs from your village
5 being abducted in February 1999?
6 A. We heard about these things, but it was not a kidnapping. I did
7 not go and ask people about this, but as far as I could hear, that was not
8 a kidnapping because he returned home immediately. I don't know the name
9 of the person. I don't know if you mean the same person that I have in
11 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm referring to Cvetko Nikolic who was abducted by
12 the KLA and freed through the good services of the OSCE monitoring mission
13 from the regional monitoring centre in Prizren. Cvetko Nikolic, otherwise
14 a retarded man.
15 A. I don't know whether he was retarded or not. I don't know what he
16 was doing in Randobrava. I don't know. I couldn't tell you.
17 Q. He was in the forest, Mr. Krasniqi, and he was abducted and taken
18 to Randobrava.
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your
20 Honours. My foundation for this is a document provided by the
21 Prosecution. It's in EDS 01383968. It's not in the system because the
22 witness raised the subject only today. Thank you.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.
24 Ms. Moeller.
25 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, two questions, if I may.
1 Re-examination by Ms. Moeller:
2 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you were asked in cross-examination about the
3 Nikolic family, the family of Dimitrije Nikolic. And at some point you
4 said that his son was also working in this cafe in your village. What is
5 the first name of this son, if you know?
6 A. Cvedan Nikolic.
7 Q. And do you know, did he have any other sons? And what were their
9 A. He had another son as well, but I can't remember his name now.
10 Q. Very well.
11 MS. MOELLER: That's all, Your Honours. Thank you.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 Well, Mr. Krasniqi, that completes your evidence. Thank you for
14 coming to the Tribunal again to give it and to add to the evidence you
15 gave before. You're now free to leave.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall resume at 2.15.
19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.39 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 2.19 p.m.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I gather you want to say something, Ms. Moeller?
22 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honour, if I may from this position. I
23 would like to tender two more exhibits from the bar table from the
24 witnesses we heard yesterday and today. One is Exhibit P2333, which is a
25 request for assistance from the Tribunal to Serbia and Montenegro,
1 requesting information on names, and the second document is the response
2 to this request, which is Exhibit P2335. These documents contain names
3 which were the subject of the testimony of the two witnesses we heard, and
4 I would therefore like to tender them.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: You have had copies of them readily available, or
6 do we have to see them on the screen?
7 MS. MOELLER: I don't have paper copies now, Your Honour. If they
8 could be brought up on the screen.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
10 MS. MOELLER: Of this document, if we could go to page 3, please,
11 and scroll down a little.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: And the response?
13 MS. MOELLER: The response is Exhibit P2335, page 2, please. If
14 we could have the English attachment. It's the same page, also page 2 on
15 the English version. If Your Honours wish, I can provide a reference to
16 where these names appeared in the evidence that was adduced in the past
17 two days.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Not necessary at the moment. Thank you.
19 Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. We have an objection to the
21 introduction of this document on several grounds. We had noted our
22 objection yesterday when this document was first attempted to be used with
23 one of the other witnesses, and particularly with the testimony we heard
24 today, it's very clear that this document lacks the type of probative
25 value that would make it admissible and useful for our purposes.
1 For instance, the very first individual on this list, Dimitrije
2 Nikolic, the information that is provided here obviously is not for the
3 Dimitrije Nikolic that the witness testified relative to, who he said was
4 a full-time cafe owner in Krusha e Vogel. This information is for an
5 individual in Urosevac, which is quite a far distance away from Mala
7 In fact, if you look at the JMBG numbers, I'm told, in my crash
8 course of the Yugoslav system, that there is a sequence of numbers in
9 there that can tell you where, that is to say, from what portion of the
10 old Yugoslav state, the individuals hailed from. The several individuals
11 that have 95, which would be the Prizren municipality, but there are
12 several individuals here who have numbers which indicate they do not hail
13 from the municipality where this village is located, and therefore we
14 can't be certain that these are individuals that were testified to or
15 might be other persons. As he indicated the other day, these names are
16 fairly common names and therefore it appears to us now that what was done
17 was that the request was made to Serbia and Montenegro and they just did a
18 search within the MUP database for anyone with name without regard for the
19 precise location as being sought.
20 So based upon that, without further information, this
21 documentation is of little probative value. And I submit that the harm or
22 prejudice could be great if, in fact, someone on here is mistaken as being
23 one of the persons that was testified to, which, again, with the few
24 individuals that we did hear about - at least number 1 on the list,
25 Dimitrije Nikolic - this is clearly not the man that was being testified
1 to by the witnesses, who both said that he had a cafe there. And I
2 believe the witness today testified that that Dimitrije Nikolic worked
3 daily in his cafe in Mala Krusa. So I don't know how he could
4 simultaneously be working daily in his cafe in Mala Krusa and also be the
5 assistant shift supervisor of the SUP in Urosevac, which is quite a few
6 kilometres away. It's several municipalities removed.
7 So on that basis, we would object to this document because we
8 cannot verify any of the information as being directly related to the
9 persons that were testified to, at least in this form.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: And the others all appear to be within the Prizren
12 MR. IVETIC: Actually, they don't. Number 20 is from Urosevac;
13 number 25 is Pristina --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: They may not be names that it's sought to refer
16 Which ones do you seek to refer to, Ms. Moeller?
17 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, we seek to refer to a number -- a
18 couple of these names. Mainly where -- all the persons that, according to
19 this information, belong to the SUP prison. Number 2, Svezda Nikolic;
20 number 3, Sava Nikolic; number 4, Momcilo; number 5, Ranko; number 10,
21 Novica; number 13, Borislav Cvetkovic; number 19, Zlatko Djordjevic;
22 number 23, Dejan Petkovic; number 25, Goran Petkovic. He is here said to
23 belong to the SUP Pristina, but I think on the basis of this information,
24 and that applies equally to Dimitrije Nikolic, it is not clear that the
25 information contained herein excludes the possibility that they may,
1 indeed, be the same persons. And we think it goes to the weight of the
2 document. And we also have requested additional information on these
3 individuals but we have not received any response yet. Such information
4 will be made available as it comes in. And I'm certain that the Defence
5 will also in their case have the opportunity to investigate all these
6 individuals further --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 MS. MOELLER: -- and present material.
9 MR. IVETIC: That's precisely my point; that, absent additional
10 information, this document is not reliable, especially given the fact that
11 some of the individuals they want to make reference to are listed as being
12 totally different persons in a different reason.
13 Now, even with the persons that are within Prizren, I don't know
14 how many Nikolics there were. We saw today a list of -- I think it was 37
15 persons, of which I think 15 were Nikolics just in that one village.
16 There might be more in Prizren; it's a pretty large place. I have no way
17 of knowing whether these are, in fact, the persons from this village
18 absent any additional information.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: We will admit the request P2333 and we will admit
22 the response insofar as it relates to the various officers identified by
23 Ms. Moeller, with the exception of numbers 1 and 25. We exclude them on
24 the basis that there's nothing in this document that would indicate they
25 were the persons serving within the Prizren area, and in particular in
1 Krusha e Vogel at the relevant time.
2 Now, that doesn't exclude the possibility of the Prosecution
3 supplementing this document by further information as the result of their
4 inquiries. But those that clearly indicate that they fell within the
5 jurisdiction of the Prizren area we will admit. We accept that there is
6 an argument about weight and whether, in fact, that establishes anything
7 in particular. But taken with other evidence in due course, it will be
8 weighed and a decision taken about whether it assists us ultimately to
9 determine the identity of the personnel involved in the incident.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would only add, then, that
11 I think for context and the full record --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Ivetic, would you kindly slow down for the
14 MR. IVETIC: I will slow down for the interpreters.
15 For the completion of the record and for context, I think we
16 should also include the other individuals for which it says the MUP has no
17 information about this person, since I believe those were also names that
18 were on the various lists in the witness statements by these witnesses and
19 were submitted by the Office of the Prosecutor relative to this event.
20 And that, therefore, might also have some value in weighing the evidence
21 and the identifications that are made.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any objection to that, Ms. Moeller?
23 MS. MOELLER: We would object to the extent that not all the names
24 in this document were actually addressed with the witness, and we would
25 ask the Defence to identify the names which were addressed with the two
1 witnesses. Where it says the MUP has no information, we would not object
2 to these names being entered as well.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: I could -- I could prepare a list and present it to
5 Your Honours so as not to take up more time.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you content in principle with the point that's
7 made, that it should be confined to those who were named?
8 MR. IVETIC: I agree, I agree in any of the evidence. I would
9 make one more point. Number 9 is also an individual from the OUP in
10 Kacanik. I don't know if that was one of the ones that the Prosecution
11 had wanted to have admitted or not, but the --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think it was.
13 MR. IVETIC: If it is, I would say that that one should also be
14 excluded. I don't have it in my notes, so I don't know if it was listed.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, can you clarify that one?
16 MS. MOELLER: We had included that name in the list because it was
17 issued today when the document was addressed by Defence counsel. Yes, we
18 still argue, because the witness has said that also policemen they didn't
19 know from their own village were present, that this may be one of the
20 persons. But it's up to Your Honours, of course.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a very thin argument, because there
22 would be no basis on which either of these witnesses would have identified
23 the officer. But number 5 was not one of the numbers you gave us --
24 number 9, rather, was not one of the numbers you gave us.
25 MS. MOELLER: I thought it was, Your Honour, but --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: You went from 2 to 5 and then to 10, 13, 19, 23,
2 and 25, I think.
3 MS. MOELLER: Yes. That's fine, Your Honours. We will maybe come
4 back to that point if we obtain more information for this particular
5 person. But for the time being, this is -- yes. Thank you.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: For the avoidance of doubt, number 9 is not
7 included in those that will be admitted.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And as I said, we will
9 submit a list of the other ones after looking at the various transcripts
10 so as not to waste more court time. Thank you.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
12 Now, yes, the next witness.
13 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you. Your Honour, the next witness is Edison
14 Zatriqi. The witness's evidence was originally proposed under Rule 92 bis
15 (B), but he's now being called under the new Rule 92 ter. His testimony
16 is relevant to the municipality of Pec and in particular to paragraphs
17 72(e) and 77 of the indictment.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: So we're embarking on a new chapter now, Ms.
19 Dragulev, are we?
20 MS. DRAGULEV: That's correct.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Zatriqi.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you please make the solemn declaration to
1 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed
2 before you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated. Now, Mr. Zatriqi, we
6 have your statement before us, but you are here so that you can answer
7 questions that counsel will put to clarify things in the statement,
8 perhaps to add to them, and perhaps to challenge some of the things that
9 you've said. And the first counsel to ask you questions will be for the
10 Prosecution, Ms. Dragulev.
11 Ms. Dragulev.
12 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you.
13 WITNESS: EDISON ZATRIQI
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examination by Ms. Dragulev:
16 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, could you please state your full name and spell your
17 first and last name for the record.
18 A. My name is Edison Zatriqi.
19 Q. Thank you. Could you please spell your first and last name.
20 A. Yes. E-d-i-s-o-n, Z-a-t-r-i-q-i.
21 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zatriqi, did you provide a statement to the Office
22 of the Prosecutor dated the 20th of June, 2001?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you make a correction to that statement on the 29th of
25 January, 2002?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. And have you had an opportunity to review those two statements
3 during our proofing session yesterday?
4 A. Yes. I reviewed them and read them.
5 Q. And are your two statements true and accurate, to the best of your
6 knowledge and recollection?
7 A. Yes, absolutely true.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honours, I would like to tender Exhibit P2347,
10 which includes the witness's statements dated the 20th of June, 2001, the
11 addendum to his statement dated the 20th of -- 29th of January, 2002, and
12 his signed 92 bis declaration.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, I would like to move to the events that occurred in
16 Pec on the 27th of March, 1999. Did you see any armed people on that day?
17 A. On that day I saw many armed people in my neighbourhood, people in
18 uniform and civilians that were carrying weapons.
19 Q. And the people in uniform, what colour was the uniform that they
20 were wearing?
21 A. The uniformed people, their uniforms were blue, camouflage,
22 combined blue and black colours.
23 Q. Thank you. And the armed civilians, did you know any of them?
24 A. Yes, I knew most of them because they were my neighbours, who were
25 civilians but they were armed. And they were moving around.
1 Q. And what was the ethnicity of those neighbours?
2 A. These neighbours who were armed were of Serb ethnicity.
3 Q. Thank you. And you stated that you left Pec on the following day,
4 the 28th of March, 1999. Why did you leave Pec on that day?
5 A. I left Peje because the Serbian police expelled us from our homes,
6 so we were forced to leave our homes and our town.
7 Q. And how did they expel you?
8 A. On Sunday, which was the 28th of March, I was not at my home, I
9 was in another house, in another neighbourhood, and a policeman went from
10 home to home telling people to leave their homes, and gave them a maximum
11 of five minutes to do.
12 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, excuse me.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: I would kindly ask my learned colleague from the
15 opposite to point the part of this statement where this witness stated so.
16 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honour, we provided a supplemental information
17 sheet yesterday, and that information was contained in that. It's also --
18 we also referenced the transcript in Milosevic --
19 MR. LUKIC: The Milosevic transcript is not part of this package,
20 as I was informed.
21 MS. DRAGULEV: That's correct. But in the supplemental
22 information sheet, we --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: The objection I think, though, Ms. Dragulev is to
24 the question which was -- well, sorry. No. I think it followed an
25 earlier question.
1 What exactly is your objection, Mr. Lukic?
2 MR. LUKIC: Part of the package is actually a combination of these
3 two statements, and in those statements we cannot find any kind of
4 mentioning of police officers expelling those people from their homes.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
6 MR. LUKIC: And it's not part of 65 ter motion as well.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, that's a different point.
8 What's the answer to that? It's not been intimated as evidence
9 that will be led from this witness.
10 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honour, it was -- as I said, we provided a
11 supplemental information sheet yesterday, and it was mentioned in
12 paragraph 9 of that supplemental information sheet.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
14 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE BONOMY: The summary of the evidence that the witness is
17 likely to give includes the statement: "The witness states that he left
18 in fear of his life." And, in view of the intimation made yesterday by
19 "supplemental information sheet," then we consider that simply to be an
20 elaboration of that part of his evidence that was heralded in the 65 ter
21 summary, and therefore we'll allow the question.
22 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, the policemen who came to your house and gave that
24 five-minute ultimatum, did he wear a uniform?
25 A. Yes, he was in uniform, the same uniform I described earlier;
1 camouflage, blue camouflage uniform.
2 Q. Thank you. And you stated that you then joined a convoy of
3 vehicles. Could you please briefly describe that convoy.
4 A. Yes. After we left the house, we joined the convoy in the road
5 parallel to the one where we were living. There was a very long convoy
6 with cars, but also a column of people, a very long column of people,
8 Q. And did you stay with the convoy until you reached Montenegro?
9 A. Yes, I was in this car convoy all the time.
10 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, you stated that your buses had been taken away from
11 you by policemen. Did you see any of your buses while you were driving in
12 the convoy?
13 A. After I joined the convoy, at the first crossroads, which was 100
14 or 200 metres away, I saw one of my buses full of people. The driver of
15 the bus was wearing a blue camouflage uniform.
16 Q. Were the people on the bus armed?
17 A. No, no. They were people from my town who were being forced to
18 leave, and they had been loaded on the bus.
19 Q. And did you see any other buses while you were driving in the
21 A. Yes. In addition to my bus, there were other buses which were
22 confiscated from my colleagues, and they were packed with citizens.
23 Q. Thank you. Page 3 of your statement states that you saw armed
24 policemen at various road junctions who were directing you towards
25 Montenegro. Did those armed policemen wear uniforms?
1 A. Yes. At the first junction where we were led to by the police --
2 the police there were wearing the same uniform and they were armed.
3 Q. My last question, Mr. Zatriqi, relates to your return to Pec on
4 the 26th of July, 1999. You stated that your house had been burned and
5 your office buildings and your buses had all been burned. Did you see any
6 other houses in the village that had been burned?
7 A. When I returned to Peje, I saw many houses that had been burned
8 and destroyed in addition to my own house.
9 Q. And do you know who those burnt houses belonged to? Do you know
10 the ethnicity of the people the houses belonged to, the burnt houses?
11 A. Yes. All of the houses that had been burned and destroyed were
12 Albanian houses.
13 Q. And did you see any houses -- any burnt houses that belonged to
15 A. No, I didn't see any. The houses that I knew Serbs were living in
16 before, those houses were not damaged.
17 Q. And did you see any mosques or religious sites that were damaged
18 or burnt when you returned?
19 A. Yes. I saw many, for example, mosques and other buildings. But
20 there was this Qarshia Xhamia, which was under the protection of UNESCO,
21 it was completely destroyed. The red Xhamia in Kapeshnica and other
22 religious sites as well.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness also mentioned
25 Hamam Xhamia.
1 MS. DRAGULEV:
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zatriqi.
3 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honours, I have no further questions at this
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 Mr. O'Sullivan.
7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The order shall be: General Lukic, General
8 Pavkovic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic, and General
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Zatriqi. I'm Branko Lukic,
15 and I will have a few questions for you today.
16 We've had a very busy schedule this week, and I must admit that
17 this is the first time I've seen the supplementary material provided to us
18 by the OTP in relation to your testimony.
19 You mentioned today that a policeman came to your home, or rather,
20 to the house where you were staying, and that he said to you that you
21 should leave that house. Was the policeman alone?
22 A. In the neighbourhood where I was staying, before I answer your
23 question, this neighbourhood has two entrances or two exits. And on these
24 two entrances there were police cars, two police cars stationed. And the
25 policeman who came to tell the occupants in the houses to leave was alone.
1 Q. Did you know the policeman?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Were there many policemen from your town that you didn't know?
4 A. Of course there were. Of course I couldn't have known every
5 single one of them.
6 Q. Did this policeman talk to you personally?
7 A. No, he didn't talk to me personally, but from the way he moved and
8 walked, it showed us clearly that we had to leave the houses, all of us.
9 Q. So he didn't talk to anyone from the house where you were staying?
10 A. It is true that he didn't talk to anyone, but he addressed us
12 Q. We'll go back to that, but now I'm going to ask you about
13 something else.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: I'd rather clarify it now, I must say, if you don't
15 mind, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: No, of course, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not clear to me what this policeman did to
18 convey the message to you that you had to leave. Could you explain that
19 to us. Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very simple. He walked along
21 the road of that neighbourhood and told the population that we should
22 leave the houses. This was an activity that came two days after some
23 major shellings and other activities that they performed. So it was very
24 obvious for us that we should leave the houses.
25 Near the house where I was, there was this hill and you could see
1 that the police was coming down that hill. And that's why it was a reason
2 for us to collect the families, to gather them all together, and leave to
3 a safer place.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell us his tone of voice and what he
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The tone was very high, and he said
7 that we should leave the houses in five minutes, max.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Would you please tell us in what part of town you
12 were on that day, on the 28th of March?
13 A. Yes. On this day I was in the Jarina part of Peje.
14 Q. Thank you. You owned a company before the war. How many
15 employees were there in the company?
16 A. Yes. I was the owner of the Flamingo Tours company and it had a
17 total of around 17 employees.
18 Q. Did you have any employees who were Serbs?
19 A. No. No, I didn't.
20 Q. On the police force, did you have any friends? Because, by virtue
21 of the fact that you were involved in this line of work, one would think
22 that you would have friends on the police force.
23 A. I wouldn't say that I had a friend or acquaintance, but --
24 however, whenever I needed something, I had acquaintances there. But not
1 Q. So you turned to them for different favours; right?
2 A. I wouldn't go to them. We would meet somewhere or meet on the
3 street. But these were for just some minor things, nothing else.
4 Q. On the 23rd, when they came and they asked for your buses -- or
5 rather, what you say here is, on a particular day in March in 1999 -- but
6 if I understand things correctly, it would have to be the 23rd, because
7 you say it was definitely the day before the start of the NATO bombing.
8 So can we say that it's the 23rd of March, 1999?
9 A. It should be so, because it was just one day before the NATO
10 air-strikes began. But the police came to my house. They asked me to go
11 to the place where the buses were -- in fact, they wanted me to move the
12 buses from there because they needed that space. I hid myself. They
13 spoke with my mother. And later, then, I went to the place where they
14 required my presence.
15 Q. When you went to that particular place, you came across Bulatovic
16 and Misljen; right?
17 A. Yes. I met Bulatovic and Misljen there.
18 Q. Did you know these two men from before?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. You asked them for a certificate stating that your buses had been
21 taken; right?
22 A. Yes, I did, because they asked me to start the engine of each one
23 of the buses, and after I did so, they told me I could leave. So, for me,
24 it didn't make sense, leaving the buses with the engines on and not having
25 any certificate. That's why I asked them to issue me with a certificate
1 that these buses were taken away from me, and to state the reasons there
2 why they were being taken away from me.
3 Q. After that they threatened you; right?
4 A. Yes, you can consider it a threat; that it was no times for
5 certificates, it was time for calibres. And when they mentioned calibres,
6 it was very clear to me what they meant.
7 Q. After that you did not go to the SUP to report the incident;
9 A. No, I didn't go to the secretariat to file a complaint because
10 Misljen was deputy commander of the police, while Bata Bulatovic was an
11 inspector. Therefore, I knew that even if I go to report it there, it
12 won't be to any benefit whatsoever.
13 Q. Did they say anything as to what they needed these buses for?
14 A. No, they didn't say anything. From the moment I started the
15 engines, they said that I was free to go.
16 Q. Did you ever have any personal conflicts with these two men?
17 A. No, never.
18 Q. Do you know when your buses were torched?
19 A. I returned relatively later. But from the information I collected
20 from people and from my colleagues, it was sometime just before the Serb
21 forces withdrew from Peje. That's when the buses were destroyed and
23 Q. Do you know that at the moment when the Serb civilians were
24 withdrawing from Pec, there was a major shortage of vehicles? What am I
25 trying to say to you? Don't you think that it's illogical, at the moment
1 when as many vehicles as possible are needed, that buses are torched and
2 then civilians have to walk?
3 A. As I said earlier, I returned relatively later, and I don't know
4 of these movements of the Serb population that you're putting me. What I
5 know is that in addition to my three buses, about another ten were also
6 burnt. So in total, about 15 buses were destroyed and burnt.
7 Q. You don't know who burned the buses, right?
8 A. No, I don't know the name and last name of the persons who did
9 that. But based on the information I got from my friends and colleagues,
10 they were destroyed by the Serbian police.
11 Q. You say that you did not have any problems during the journey,
12 that you drove straight to Rozaje. Is that right?
13 A. Yes, you can say that. Except for some provocations along the
14 road, we didn't have any major problems.
15 Q. So the policemen that you saw during that journey did not attack
16 you, did not shoot at you. Can we conclude that they were trying to
17 regulate the traffic, the traffic commotion that was there because of so
18 many people being on the road?
19 A. No, we can't say so. It is true that there were policemen on
20 crossroads, but they were not there to regulate the traffic, as you are
21 saying. They were giving us directions. For example, I could not go
22 right or straight on a crossroad, but to the direction that the policeman
23 was showing me; in my case, the direction towards Rozaje.
24 Q. So they did not direct you to go towards Albania or Macedonia;
25 they were directing you to go to Montenegro. Is that right?
1 A. Yes, that's right. They were directing us to go Montenegro on the
2 left side of the city, that is, people coming from the left side of the
3 town; while people coming from the right side of the town were directed to
4 go to Albania.
5 Q. Montenegro and Serbia were a single state at that time; right? So
6 this is just my last question at this time for the sake of formality. The
7 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that was the name of the state at the
8 time; right?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zatriqi. Thank you for having answered my
11 questions. I have no further questions for you. Thank you.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: I was just going to say "No questions," Your
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm just anticipating.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have any
19 questions either.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And I will now disappoint you. I
25 have a couple of questions. Maybe three.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Go ahead.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zatriqi, I'm Mihajlo Bakrac. I will just
4 follow up on the last question put to you by my learned friend. You said
5 that you returned in July of 1999, if I'm not mistaken, and you were in
6 Rozaje all that time before you returned. Is that correct?
7 A. No. I was in Turkey during this time, in a town near Antalya.
8 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, when you returned -- or rather, you told us about the
9 buses, that you had received information from your friends and
10 colleagues. Were those friends and colleagues Albanians, the ones who
11 told you about your buses?
12 A. Yes, all of them were Albanians.
13 Q. And those are the Albanians that remained in Pec; that's how you
14 were able to obtain information from them. They were in Pec all that
15 time. They did not flee, like you did.
16 A. All these colleagues left Peje, indeed. Some of them who lived on
17 the right side of the river, they went to Albania, while the others who
18 lived on the left side of the river, to Montenegro. Once they returned
19 after the NATO forces entered Kosova, they were informed by the people who
20 lived near the place where our buses were parked.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's the point Mr. Bakrac is making to
22 you. There must have been people who stayed in Pec, and they would be the
23 ones who saw your buses being burned.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course there were citizens who
25 were unable to leave. My colleagues, however, who had their buses
1 confiscated, they did not stay in Peje either. They got this information
2 from the people whose houses were near the place where the buses were
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 Mr. Bakrac.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Yes. But let's be very precise. Those people whose houses were
8 in the vicinity, they are Albanians, aren't they?
9 A. Yes, Albanians.
10 Q. When the international forces entered Pec, were there any Serbs
11 left; and also when you returned to Pec, were there any Serbs left there?
12 A. As I said, I returned relatively later. There were Serbs in our
13 town, but they were stationed at Peje's Patrika.
14 Q. And my last question to you, Mr. Zatriqi, is this: When you
15 provided your first statement on the 20th of June, 2001 - and we have it
16 here - the reason for your departure stated therein is this: "We left
17 because there was shooting going on all night." That was the reason that
18 you provided. You didn't say then that anybody had told you to leave.
19 How come you've changed that in the meantime?
20 A. I did not change my opinion at all. You can see from my statement
21 that the gun-shots that were heard throughout the night were heard from my
22 house. And the following morning, together with my family, I moved to
23 Jarina neighbourhood, to my aunt's house.
24 Q. And now you've explained your reasons for departure. Thank you
25 very much, Mr. Zatriqi. I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Dragulev.
2 MS. DRAGULEV: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Excuse me, please. I just want a little
6 explanation. What do you mean by "Peje Patrika"? What is this place? Or
7 why is it called "Peje Patrika"?
8 A. This question is for me, Your Honour?
9 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Yes. Thank you very much.
10 A. It's an Orthodox church in Peje.
11 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Oh. Thank you very much. And were these people
12 confined there when the forces came within the church compound, the Serbs
13 I mean, when the forces came?
14 A. I wasn't there when the NATO forces entered Peje, but when I
15 returned, I saw that there were Serbs at the Peje Patrika.
16 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I mean, that was a place where they were all made
17 to assemble, or they were there already, or you saw some of them there?
19 A. I don't know the reasons because I wasn't there when they moved to
20 the church. But you can see the road that goes to Rugova and you can see
21 that there were people going to this monastery.
22 JUDGE CHOWHAN: How many you saw?
23 A. When I happened to pass by there about two or three months after
24 the NATO forces entered Kosova, I could see about 30 to 40 people from the
1 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thanks.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Zatriqi. That completes your
3 evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You're now
4 free to leave.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, I hope you're dreading the next question, Mr.
9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we have no more witnesses for this
10 week. We lost one that we thought we were going to have. I know we cut
11 it pretty close to the edge. But since next week we had no court planned,
12 I made my best estimate. Some of the cross-examination went faster than I
13 expected, and I hope the Court won't be too disappointed in the fact that
14 we covered a lot of territory this week, I think.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it can be said you did extremely well in
16 your planning for this week.
17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: But I did indicate informally yesterday that it
19 might be a suitable opportunity to review progress. Can you help us on
20 how we're doing and how this fits in with -- how the progress fits in with
21 your original estimate of the time that you would like to take to present
22 your case?
23 MR. HANNIS: Well, it's hard to say, because in these beginning
24 months, Your Honours, we have focussed on crime base, and a number of our
25 witnesses have been 92 bis witnesses and are shorter than a number of our
1 upcoming witnesses. By my calculations, I think today, now, Your Honour,
2 we have, counting the one 92 bis (C) witness, whose testimony you
3 admitted, Mr. Russo, I think we now have evidence from 49 witnesses out of
4 our approximately 170 or so on the list. So we're something more than 25
5 per cent but less than 30. However, as I said, we have our bigger, longer
6 witnesses coming up, with the internationals, the experts, and some of the
7 higher-level insiders. But I think we're progressing fairly well.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: And, of course, the rule change has given you the
9 greater flexibility than you had before to use the provisions of what's
10 now Rule 92 ter.
11 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour. And we have tried to
12 take onboard some of the suggestions you've made and pointed out in terms
13 of trying to do some things farther in advance with witnesses rather than
14 just the day or two before they get here. We're just taking our initial
15 steps to try and do some of that, using the facilities that you've pointed
16 out to us that are available for such purposes.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Looking broadly at the picture, you originally
18 estimated 280 hours.
19 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour, but that's --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Let me finish. We then took some of the crime
21 sites out, which might have been said to reduce the estimate, but we then
22 refused your application to have 92 bis witnesses without
23 cross-examination. You, however, took the view that you should
24 nevertheless examine these witnesses. But laying that little -- that part
25 of it aside, perhaps the two developments that I've just summarised might
1 be seen to have cancelled each other out, and we're probably back where we
3 MR. HANNIS: I haven't done a precise calculation, but you may be
4 right. The one may offset the other. I haven't sat down to do the math
5 again --
6 JUDGE BONOMY: And, of course, all of that is in the context of
7 what you would like to have to present your case.
8 MR. HANNIS: Correct, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: One thing you mustn't lose sight of, no one here
10 must lose sight of, is that certainly in the early stages of the trial
11 we've used a very high proportion of time in matters which are not
12 direct -- well, non-presentation of evidence. Hopefully that's -- well,
13 it has reduced, and hopefully it will continue to take up a smaller
14 proportion of the time. But it is quite disturbing to see, when you look
15 ahead, just how long it might take to present a case, using the starting
16 point of 280 hours. I take it you've worked that out?
17 MR. HANNIS: Yes, I understand, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
19 And so just finally, on the sitting times themselves, a number of
20 views have been expressed informally that this has been a rather demanding
21 week. Do you have a view to express on behalf of the Prosecution?
22 MR. HANNIS: Well, personally, Your Honour, I feel rather
23 knackered, if I can borrow that expression. But I don't know, it's hard
24 to explain. In America, in my system, we used to do jury trials from 9.00
25 to 5.30 on a regular basis, but I was younger then. And there's something
1 about -- just this whole process. Maybe it's the nature of the cases, the
2 translation, the additional pressures. But it has been a very tiring
3 week. But we did -- I think we did accomplish a lot during this week. I
4 don't know that I would volunteer to do it every week.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I understand that. But you make the point that
6 I was going to make myself; that I'm not used to working 9.00 to 5.30, but
7 I know that in the United States it's regularly done. And, therefore, it
8 didn't seem to be out of the way. I also accept what you said about the
9 process here, apparently making more demands on the individual. It may be
10 something to do with the slow progress that's associated with translation,
11 e-court, documents coming up, and so on. You'll get -- sorry --
12 MR. SEPENUK: Excuse me, Your Honour, I didn't mean to interrupt
14 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll come to you in a moment --
15 MR. SEPENUK: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: -- Mr. Sepenuk.
17 But you'll find that over the next few months and into the first
18 couple of months of next year, there may be the facility for repeating
19 what we've done this week because of cases being at judgement and their
20 evidence having finished. And I must say, I certainly find it more
21 civilised to sit in a way which allows you to concentrate for a morning
22 and an afternoon and have a break in the middle of the day, rather than
23 these -- confining it all to one part of the day. That doesn't mean to
24 say we need to sit for all the hours that we've sat here, nor that we need
25 to do it every day or indeed every week. But we've got to try to make use
1 of the time that's available. Three and three-quarter hour days are not
2 going to achieve -- exclusively, three and three-quarter hour days is not
3 going to achieve, for this case, a resolution of the case within what
4 strikes us as a reasonable time in the overall context.
5 So there has to be, I think, imaginative use of available time.
6 And it may be that by working longer hours at certain times, that other
7 times there can be breaks which might be productively used out of court.
8 An example, I hope, is what we've decided to do at the recess, at the
9 Christmas recess. And there could be other opportunities along the way.
10 Now, Mr. Sepenuk, you want to comment.
11 MR. SEPENUK: Well, as a matter of fact, Your Honour, in light of
12 what you just said, I've decided not to pursue -- I was going to talk more
13 about the American experience, but I'd rather the Court wonder why I
14 didn't speak than why I did. So I'll leave it at that.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, I know that there are counsel who do have
16 views on scheduling, and I'm happy to hear from any who do.
17 Mr. O'Sullivan.
18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, Your Honour, if I can speak quite candidly
19 about the situation this week. It appears to me that the Trial Chamber --
20 I hope the Trial Chamber doesn't lose its perspective on the impact of
21 working a week like this. There is -- in a full day there's very little
22 time for preparation and virtually no time to sit and reflect on where
23 we've gone, what's happening this week and what will happen in the weeks
24 to come. That's a very important consideration, I submit, in a trial like
25 this. This isn't a two- or three-week matter. This is a lengthy matter.
1 Many pieces have to fit together both in anticipation of how we proceed,
2 how we prepare our Defence cases, which are coming. That requires time.
3 The other factors are distance in this case. We have people in the
4 region; we have potential witnesses who are on different continents. This
5 is a leadership case. I hope the Chamber doesn't lose sight of those
6 aspects, because this week wasn't very pleasant and there was virtually no
7 time to reflect on what we're doing.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: One of the things we have been bearing in mind is
9 the long term, because we're conscious of the issues you mentioned. We're
10 conscious of the fact that witnesses who will be coming that will take
11 much longer to deal with than we've been dealing with so far, which will
12 be much more important, possibly, than the ones we've been dealing with so
13 far in relation to the real issues in dispute in the case. We have to
14 bear in mind that there are six accused all to present defence cases if
15 they wish. There has to be time for that to be organised and then for it
16 to be presented.
17 So it would be foolish to fail, I think, to take advantage of the
18 time that can be used when these issues don't directly arise, albeit that
19 may put certain demands on personnel, but we're in a very unusual
20 situation, in an unusual environment, with a distinct job to do.
21 So I recognise what you say, but if it's not every week, then
22 perhaps the concerns you have can be addressed. And also if there is
23 going to be a facility for interrupting it from time to time, then that
24 may also address it.
25 Overall, though, before I think we can plan sensibly ourselves, we
1 may need to, at least in relation to the Prosecution case for the moment,
2 think of applying overall guidelines or limits so that we can see just
3 what the implications are of any requests that are made to sit at
4 particular times or to adjourn at particular stages.
5 It's interesting, I think, to also reflect that by giving guidance
6 in advance of this week and by perhaps taking quite a tough line with the
7 Prosecution on the way in which they had organised their witnesses, there
8 has been a distinct improvement in the sort of efficiency of the trial
9 process; however, I'll be the first to acknowledge that efficiency isn't
10 the be all and end-all in this game. There is something that we have to
11 bring to bear in this organisation which has so few resources.
12 Now, Mr. Ackerman.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Hesitantly, I will speak about this again. Your
14 Honour, the only thing that made this week possible for us was because the
15 witnesses tended to be talking about minimal things, things that weren't
16 of great high import, and especially for those of us who were not
17 representing police, it was a -- it was a week that became manageable.
18 But I hope you will understand that if we're sitting from 9.00 to
19 5.30, we really have no other time to work except from 7.00 until
20 midnight, and that's what we have to do. And, you know, if you imposed
21 those kinds of hours, from 9.00 to midnight, on the rest of the staff of
22 this Tribunal, you'd have an immediate revolt, you'd have a claim of
23 inhumanity, and all kinds of things like that. So you have to understand
24 that that's what you do when you sit from 9.00 to 5.30; you put us in a
25 situation where we work 15 hours a day. That's burdensome and it's
1 oppressive and I think it's almost inhumane.
2 If this was a two-week trial, like the United States trials you're
3 talking about, nobody would object. But we're looking to try and stay in
4 this kind of a schedule for as long as two years, and it's just not
5 possible. It can't be done. And I don't know how to emphasise it
7 Now, we were not able to do anything in terms of reviewing
8 materials that we haven't reviewed yet, in terms of trying to prepare our
9 own case, and things like that. We weren't able to do any of that this
10 week. That's what we do with those mornings that we're not in session or
11 those afternoons that we're not in session. We work on the witnesses that
12 are coming; we work on preparing our own case. We do the stuff that's
13 important to make this case work. We can't do it if we're sitting here
14 from 9.00 to 5.30 every day. It's not possible.
15 When I say it's not possible, you may say to me, "There are two or
16 three of you working on this. Why can't one of you come to court and the
17 other one do this work?" That doesn't work. We have to work, all of us,
18 on witnesses to be able to do it. This week we had to substitute another
19 counsel at this table to get through the week. As it turned out, it
20 wasn't as important as I thought it might be. But it could have been and
21 it could have been a serious problem.
22 So this proposition that we should sit any time between 9.00 and
23 5.30 ever again is not acceptable in this kind of case. As I say, if this
24 was a two-week trial, no problem, we could have been ready when it
25 started; we could sit 9.00 to 5.30 every day. We do it in the United
1 States. Not usually 9.00 to 5.30; it's usually 10.00 to 5.00 or something
2 like that. But in any event, we do put in those kinds of hours. But
3 they're cases where we have had time to prepare them, they're short in
4 duration where you've got maybe 15 witnesses, and you're done. That's a
5 whole different thing from having 170 witnesses and having to prepare a
6 defence case in a case of this magnitude.
7 So, as I've said before, if you let us do our jobs, we'll get this
8 case done in a reasonable amount of time, efficiently. But if you put us
9 under this kind of pressure, we're going to have serious problems. Some
10 of us are just going to fall over.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I have only two things to say about that.
12 One is, with a trial as lengthy as this, there is an opportunity
13 along the way to put right anything that might appear to be going wrong,
14 which you don't necessarily have in shorter cases.
15 The second thing I only mention because you've raised it, and
16 others, no doubt, will have heard it. But I assure you there are
17 dedicated young people working behind the scenes in this Tribunal who do
18 work the hours that you have said would result in revolt; that perhaps not
19 as obliged as somebody sitting in court, as a result, nevertheless, they
20 do actually and, I dare say, would not like to be classed as rebels but
21 the opposite.
22 MR. SEPENUK: Excuse me, Your Honour. I think that the -- I say
23 this with some levity, that the operative word in what you just said
24 was "young."
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, just before we -- before we conclude, does
1 anyone -- sorry -- yes, please.
2 MR. IVETIC: Just briefly, as one of the younger persons here. I
3 must admit our team is a little jealous to hear that some of the other
4 teams actually got to bed at midnight. Our average sleeping time was
5 quite a bit past that; I think the past several days, it's been about 4.00
6 in the morning.
7 I have to stress that, especially when it -- when the witnesses
8 have a particular focus on a particular defendants, this becomes quite
9 onerous to prepare for each witness, especially when it -- as it happened
10 this week, where one witness unfortunately drops out at the last minute,
11 that really puts us in a crunch because we're only preparing for the
12 witnesses as we go because of the lack of time. So we really were in a
13 crunch when the one witness dropped out. We had to scramble to make sure
14 that we were adequately prepared for however many witnesses might come in
15 a given day. And it's been quite exhaustive and we got through it. But I
16 just don't know how we can guarantee that we would have the same
17 capabilities in the future, especially once we take into account the
18 cumulative effect of fatigue and just the sheer number of documents
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have a list yet for a week on Monday?
21 MR. IVETIC: We just received one I believe yesterday -- we just
22 received the list today, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, the only other question I was going to ask was
24 whether anyone on the Defence side does want to comment on time. I think
25 that you used less than the maximum time for cross, around I -- in fact,
1 all of the Judges consider the cross-examination was far more focussed
2 since that guidance was given, and it doesn't appear to have lost anything
3 in effectiveness.
4 If we set guidance or time-limits, then it may be that the
5 starting point is equality of time; but I think we recognise there may be
6 occasions when there's a significant reason for there being inequality.
7 So if there should be an order issued over the next few days, it will
8 include the provision that, on good cause being shown, these limits will
9 be varied.
10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The only thing that occurred to me this week was
11 the 14 witnesses that testified this week, it was somewhat arbitrary in
12 the sense that I could imagine 14 other witnesses where there would have
13 been rather extensive cross-examination, and I think that's what you've
14 just told us. But as things evolved this week, the cross-examinations
15 were more focussed for a variety of reasons. But I don't know if you
16 could say that for every 14 witnesses.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: But I think you can look back and say that, over
18 the piece of the trial, it wouldn't have been much different, I think, if
19 the cross-examination had been as focussed as it was this week. There
20 were no -- I can't think of any particular examples where significantly
21 longer would have been required generally for any of the crime base
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just briefly I would
1 like to present another aspect of the problem that we have been facing.
2 This week we had a number of witnesses who came from a number of
3 different municipalities. For every municipality we have a certain number
4 of documents that we have to overview and we are talking about a large
5 quantity. So if the witnesses come so fast from different locations, we
6 face a problem of trying to locate the adequate documents.
7 In this respect, we have been either fortunate, or unfortunate, to
8 have very few usable documents that we could use for our
9 cross-examination. What is going to happen in the coming weeks is that
10 the number of documents that the Defence teams are going to be using will
11 grow in numbers, as the crime base witnesses draw to an end.
12 In that respect, I'm going to -- I would like to try and draw
13 attention to the fact that we will have problems with translation of some
14 documents, and I would like to beg for your tolerance and your indulgence
15 in allowing us to present the shortest documents in their original without
16 their full translation, or maybe only as draft translations. Those
17 documents are only in the possession of the Prosecution, and we will not
18 surprise them with any of those documents.
19 As far as I know, we have not been able to receive translations
20 for two or three weeks, even if we insisted on them. But the witnesses
21 are being announced seven days in advance, which puts a lot of pressure on
22 us. And the only realistic option for the time being is for the Trial
23 Chamber to allow us to use some of these documents, or at least some of
24 passages from certain documents, in their original because we won't have
25 the time to translate them fully.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Where the passages are fairly short, there's no
2 problem about putting them on the e-court and having them translated as
3 they are read. It's not the way things are supposed to be done, of
4 course, and if it causes a problem for one of the parties, then that will
5 have to be addressed. But it does seem a way around what could otherwise
6 be a difficulty if there is a log jam with the CLSS translation.
7 I'll certainly inquire about the situation and see if anything can
8 be done to assist you. But I'm happy if short passages are dealt with
9 that way, if you've failed, for good reason, not to get them translated in
10 time. Draft translations should, I think, be discussed with the
11 Prosecutor before they're used, if possible. And if the Prosecution are
12 satisfied with the general standard of draft translation, then you might
13 get over that. But initially, I think, you should be discussing the
14 quality of what you produce unofficially.
15 I think it also important when you're using documents to
16 cross-examine that you have them well-prepared. The system is actually
17 quite slow, as we're discovering, and efficiency of your preparation will
18 assist in speeding it up.
19 Anyway, thank you very much for -- oh, sorry, Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Just briefly, Your Honour. I'm
21 looking at the transcript, and if anybody reads it, they may believe that
22 I have been happy with the working hours, which would be the last thing I
23 would wish to say. Thank you very much. This is my remark at the end of
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Bad move I would say, Mr. Bakrac.
1 Right. Well, at least next week you'll be able to work 12-hour
2 days. It will be a great improvement for you from what's happened this
3 week. I hope you make the most of the time off and -- off from court
4 sittings. We will resume at 9.00 on Monday, the 9th of October.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.50 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of October,
7 2006, at 9.00 a.m.