Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6982

1 Tuesday, 21 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: While Mr. Ciaglinski is coming in, one

6 administrative matter I might deal with. It relates to an event during

7 the evidence of the witness Sabri Popaj. There was objection taken to a

8 video and, the Court suggested that the matter of identifying the Belaj

9 bridge could be achieved by a still being produced from the video. The

10 Prosecution have now uploaded such a still numbered P2474. The Chamber is

11 minded to admit that but not to admit the video unless there is any

12 objection to that course of action.

13 [The witness enters court]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I see none, so we shall admit that, Mr. Hannis, and

15 not admit the video itself.

16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.


18 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Ciaglinski.

19 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: We have to continue with the cross-examination by

21 Mr. Ivetic.

22 Mr. Ivetic.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

24 Q. Mr. Ciaglinski, I hope to be rather brief. I have only 7 to 10

25 minutes worth of questions for you, so bear with me.

Page 6983

1 Now, Colonel, during your direct examination you testified about

2 your return to Pristina after the conclusion of the NATO campaign and the

3 burning documents you saw and photographed. Now, first of all, the one

4 picture that you showed us of the truck with the smoldering smoke behind

5 it, first of all, how many days after your return to Pristina was this

6 picture taken, if you can recall.

7 A. It was taken on the second or third day.

8 Q. Okay. And am I correct that this -- this location behind the

9 truck is where you previously had described a large -- I think you had

10 described it as a truckload worth of documents burning for several days.

11 Is that the same -- the same location?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Okay. Now, am I correct that the location you photographed is

14 actually the passageway between two out of the multiple -- I think it's

15 five buildings of the MUP complex in the centre of Pristina.

16 A. It's the complex which faces the main road. Yes, you're quite

17 correct.

18 Q. Okay. And is this the complex that during your time as part of

19 the KVM mission you knew to have housed many offices, including the

20 Pristina SUP headed Colonel Petric whom you mention in your statement, and

21 a separate building that housed the MUP staff, separate building for the

22 gaol, separate building for state security, et cetera?

23 A. Yes, I believe they were government offices. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Great. And is this also the same complex where you saw the

25 major antenna at the rear that you described in your statement?

Page 6984

1 A. As you know, the buildings fronting the road then had another

2 building behind, and between that building and the stadium complex where

3 was are antenna was. So, if you like, it's the whole collection of

4 buildings but it is not the building I was referring to. The building I

5 referred to Colonel Mijatovic had his office or the building -- was this

6 building but the building behind, if that makes sense.

7 Q. Still part of the same overall complex though?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And now I think -- I think we'd agreed yesterday that the antenna

10 at the time you returned back had been destroyed; you don't know when.

11 Now, are you aware that one of the buildings in the complex housed

12 archives and storage of documents including old documents that had

13 expired? Did anyone make you aware of that fact?

14 A. No. Because we had no access to these buildings during our time

15 with the OSCE.

16 Q. Okay. And are you aware or did you find out whether in fact any

17 or in fact all of the buildings in this complex had been evacuated and

18 left into disuse sometime before the NATO bombing?

19 A. The building that we occupied where we had our offices and

20 overlooked the pile of burning paper was still in the process of being

21 evacuated. So it was not actually empty of personnel or documents.

22 Q. Okay. Are you aware that under the Kumanovo accords the Serb

23 authorities were required to empty the buildings in this complex and to

24 take out all old documents to accommodate the arrival of KFOR?

25 A. I don't, but I'll bow to you again on this.

Page 6985

1 Q. All right. Now, did you or your interpreter take note of any of

2 the expiration dates or validity dates of any of the documents you saw

3 burning?

4 A. No. We looked at the general sort of context of what the

5 documents were. I mean dates were -- we looked at dates, but I can't

6 remember off the top of my head whether they were a year old or five years

7 old.

8 Q. Okay. And the documents included in addition to passports and IDs

9 also applications for passports and IDs; is that correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And I believe you indicated that you had retained certain

12 exemplars or samples of items from the fire. First of all, what types of

13 documents did you retain these samples of, what were they? Were they IDs,

14 were they applications for IDs?

15 A. All of those.

16 Q. All of those. And where are these documents now?

17 A. I passed the documents on to General DZ, who passed them to the

18 OSCE authorities in Skopje.

19 Q. Did do you recall when it was that you passed these documents to

20 General Drewienkiewicz?

21 A. I'm not exactly sure whether I gave them to him immediately or

22 when we returned to Skopje a couple of weeks later, but they were

23 certainly handed back to him. And I discussed it with him some time ago,

24 during the Milosevic trial -- following the Milosevic trial, and he

25 confirms that this was -- this was the case. He remembers taking the

Page 6986

1 documents off me and passing them to the OSCE.

2 Q. Do you recall what quantity of documents we're talking about?

3 A. It was a handful.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. A wedge of documents, yes.

6 Q. Fair enough. Now, I'd like to turn just for a moment for a couple

7 of questions relating to Mr. Lukic and the MUP staff based upon your

8 knowledge and interaction with them.

9 First of all, you mentioned Colonel Mijatovic during your

10 testimony. Did you know or was it explained to you that Colonel Mijatovic

11 was in fact appointed to liaise with the KVM by Minister of the Interior

12 Stojiljkovic and that in fact in this position he represented the entire

13 MUP of the Republic of Serbia, quite separate from his duties and

14 functions at the MUP staff with General Lukic?

15 A. I was not aware of that. He never sort of made -- made us aware

16 of this. We always assumed he was working directly to General Lukic.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. And he would always defer back to General Lukic, never to any

19 authorities in Belgrade.

20 Q. Now, I believe you mentioned in your statements and perhaps in

21 your testimony that General Lukic met with someone named Hilsep. Am I

22 correct that from January 1999 onwards a general -- General Hilsep had

23 been appointed by General DZ to liaise with the MUP. Is that your

24 recollection?

25 A. Yes, it was General Richard Hislop, an Irish officer, correct.

Page 6987

1 Q. Okay. And do you know how often General Hislep met with General

2 Lukic and the duration and nature of their meetings?

3 A. I am away of that towards the end of our mission in the last few

4 weeks it was fairly frequently but before that not so frequently.

5 Q. Okay. And during --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you spell Hislop for us, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's spelled Haeslip but

8 pronounced Hislop, sir.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, spell it out, please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's like H-a-e-s-l-i-p,

11 Haeslip, but pronounced Hislop. I'm not very good at Irish -- certain

12 Irish names.

13 MR. IVETIC: Trying to see if I can be of assistance in the

14 documents but I'm not finding it right now.

15 A. He was a brigadier general.

16 Q. Right. In any event, moving on, is -- as part of these frequent

17 meetings towards the end of the KVM stay in Kosovo and Metohija, you don't

18 have any -- you don't have knowledge of any of the matters that were

19 discussed or the many requests by General Haeslip that General Lukic

20 acceded to, do you?

21 A. Only in very general terms, that it was to do with -- certainly

22 with our evacuation. It was to do with the general state of affairs at

23 the time in Kosovo.

24 Q. Okay. And lastly in your statement you described Sreten Lukic

25 that you knew at that time to be a lieutenant general. Are you in fact

Page 6988

1 aware that at the time of the KVM mission Sreten Lukic was actually a

2 major general? And upon what was your knowledge of his rank based?

3 A. If I -- maybe I was just being very generous in promoting General

4 Lukic. I don't know. It was just a slip, I suppose.

5 Q. Fair enough.

6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I don't think I have any more questions

7 for this witness. Thank you very much for your indulgence.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

9 Mr. Sepenuk.

10 MR. SEPENUK: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Sepenuk:

12 Q. Colonel Ciaglinski, good afternoon. My name is Norman Sepenuk.

13 I'm an attorney for General Ojdanic, and I have a very brief series of

14 questions for you.

15 You testified in direct examination that Colonel Kotur told you

16 about an alleged plan to expel the KLA and the Albanian civilian

17 population from Kosovo. Correct, sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you further testified in the Milosevic trial that you told

20 General DZ about this; correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And you -- you testified specifically in the Milosevic trial, and

23 it's at page 3333, you said, "I was given this information. I then passed

24 it on to DZ who chose not to believe it."

25 Do you recall that?

Page 6989

1 A. I do.

2 Q. And then you further testified at the Milosevic trial in answer to

3 a question by Judge Kwon, and this is at pages 3354 and 5 of the record,

4 and I quote, you said: "Well, you know," this is General DZ saying this

5 to you, sir. You said: "General DZ said, 'Well, you know, this is just

6 possibly one man's opinion.'"

7 And you said you tried to argue him -- argue with him about that

8 because it was so detailed but he just put it to one side. Is that a

9 pretty fair summary of your testimony?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And in the Milosevic trial General DZ was asked about this, on

12 page 3070, and he said, in effect: "There was no plan to expel that I

13 know of."

14 And he said precisely, and I quote: "I saw no plan. Nobody

15 talked to me about a plan."

16 You -- and I take it you followed the Milosevic trial and have I

17 quoted that correctly?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, did you make a written report to General DZ about

20 this conversation?

21 A. No, I didn't because of the time constraints on what we were

22 actually doing at the time and we were already destroying documents,

23 destroying computer hard drives. There was very little to make me

24 actually write it down.

25 Q. So you didn't make -- the short of it is you didn't make a written

Page 6990

1 report to General DZ?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Nor did you -- nor, as I understand it, did you make a written

4 report to anyone in OSCE about this?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. Turning to one last area, and I'll ask you, sir, would you

7 agree that under the October 1998 verification agreements, the three

8 agreements that you said you carried around in your pockets, that your

9 mandate was to be a neutral and detached -- detached observer of events?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And in other words, you shouldn't favour one side over the other.

12 You shouldn't favour the Serbs over the KLA; you shouldn't favour the KLA

13 over the Serbs. Is that a fair statement?

14 A. It is. Sorry, I'm just pausing to give the interpreters time.

15 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. And you were working primarily with Serb forces,

16 and is it fair to say you wanted the Serbs to trust you?

17 A. I did, yes.

18 Q. And it's fair to say the Serbs didn't trust the KLA, so at the

19 very least you wanted them to trust you?

20 A. Yes. I mean, a working relationship is based on trust.

21 Q. Right. And you testified as an example of that trust that on --

22 that on at least one occasion you were given maps by the Serbian army to

23 use which you did not pass on to anyone?

24 A. I didn't pass them on to the KLA. They came within the OSCE so

25 they were not passed on.

Page 6991

1 Q. Yes. Okay. And in fact you also testified yesterday that you

2 didn't aid the KLA in any of their activities?

3 A. No, we did not aid the KLA.

4 Q. And did you disclose information received from Serb forces to


6 A. I personally did not, no.

7 Q. You did not. Okay.

8 A. Well, it depends when.

9 Q. Well, as I understand it that you were -- tell me about this. You

10 went to Macedonia after Kosovo; correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And in Macedonia what was your position there?

13 A. I had several positions in Macedonia. I was the liaison -- the

14 OSCE liaison to NATO. I was also working alongside UNHCR.

15 Q. Okay. And while you were in Macedonia did you at any time, or

16 indeed at any time during your OSCE employment, that's from late December

17 1998 through until, what, June 13th of 1999?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. Did you at any time during that period provide or assist in

20 providing information to NATO about the deployment and location of Serbian

21 forces in Kosovo?

22 A. Probably. As -- as a NATO officer myself and as our mission had

23 finished in Kosovo, then I presumed I was free to do so.

24 Q. And how about the maps, for example, that you received from the

25 Serbian forces? Did you provide them to -- to NATO forces?

Page 6992

1 A. I personally didn't, but I believe the maps were used by NATO

2 forces.

3 Q. And in the -- in the Milosevic trial you were asked a question by

4 Judge May, and the question was: "Colonel," to you, "can" you assist as

5 to this: It's alleged that the KLA and NATO were working together. As

6 far as you are concerned, was there any evidence of that?"

7 And your answer was: "No."

8 Are you now changing your testimony?

9 A. I don't think I've said that the KLA and NATO were working

10 together. I can't remember when I said this in the last few minutes.

11 Q. Well, I'm quoting from page 3263 of the Milosevic trial. And at

12 that point Mr. Milosevic was sort of making a statement. He says: "I

13 suppose it's clear to you, we can see from what took place. We can also

14 see from the statements that the so-called commanders of these terrorist

15 KLA groups that NATO Air Force were the air forces of the KLA because they

16 actually worked in cahoots together. Is that something you're aware of or

17 not?"

18 And then Judge May interjected, said: "This is getting well away

19 from the witness's evidence. It's a matter of comment by you. And if you

20 have evidence of it, you can call it in due course."

21 And then Judge May asked you this specific question, and I'll

22 repeat it: "Colonel, can you assist us in this? It's alleged that the

23 KLA and NATO were working together. As far as you were concerned, was

24 there any evidence of that," and you said: "No."

25 Is that your testimony today?

Page 6993

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Fine.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, there is there a problem with this?

4 MR. HANNIS: I think that's clear now. Before I think there was a

5 misunderstanding.


7 Q. So, in other words, there's no evidence that you would know of

8 that NATO and the KLA were working together, including the time you were

9 in Macedonia? Okay.

10 Now, you do you know a person named Afrim Aziri?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. And tell us about him.

13 A. He was General DZ's driver and then he became my driver.

14 Q. Okay. Is he a respectable gentleman?

15 A. He used to be, I believe, an officer in the Serbian air force.

16 Q. Okay. So would you believe what -- what he would say if he was

17 under oath? Would you believe him?

18 A. There's no reason why I shouldn't but, you know, I don't know

19 what's in someone else's mind.

20 Q. Okay. Well, I will tell you this, Colonel, and in America we have

21 an expression inquiring before firing. You don't make allegations, even

22 suggest allegations, that somebody's done something improper unless you

23 ask him about it, and that's all I'm doing with you now, sir. I make no

24 allegations about anything, but I do have information here that seems to

25 contradict, seems to contradict what you said, so I simply want to ask you

Page 6994

1 about it. The information could be erroneous, it could be wrong, so I'm

2 simply going to ask you to explain it.

3 And before I do, I want to ask you again: To your knowledge, did

4 the KLA commanders pass information to Mr. Aziri about the deployment of

5 Serb forces in Kosovo, the location of Serb weaponry, the quantity of

6 weaponry, and the specific locations of Serb troops?

7 A. All I can tell you is that when I arrived with Afrim in Kosovo he

8 worked for me for a very shorted time and then worked for me no longer.

9 Q. So you don't recall that then?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. And then your testimony further is that you didn't discuss

12 this with him, the deployment of Serb troops, location of weaponry, that

13 kind of thing; correct?

14 A. Well, I saw him a few times, and he would ask me about what I knew

15 about Serbian deployments in Kosovo and if I knew of any plans, and I

16 believe I also had done an interview in Macedonia with ABC television

17 which went out on ABC, and I at that time I think I spoke for 20 minutes

18 about what I thought was called the horseshoe plan. So this wasn't

19 something that wasn't unknown and people knew that I actually had evidence

20 or information about such a plan.

21 Q. Right. Well, I'm not talking about horseshoe now; I'm talking

22 about something more general, okay? And did you suggest to Mr. Aziri that

23 perhaps he should share information about the deployment of Serb forces

24 weaponry and whatnot with the KLA?

25 A. I can't recall that.

Page 6995

1 Q. You can't recall that. Okay. And I take it you can't recall

2 passing along any information to that effect to NATO concerning Serb

3 forces, the deployment thereof, Serb weaponry, that kind of thing?

4 A. I can't -- nothing -- Aziri to NATO [inaudible].

5 Q. Okay. Then I'm going to ask you to look at defendant 3D402, if

6 that could be put on the screen.

7 And with the indulgence of the trial panel, could you take the

8 time to read that statement, and if I could respectfully ask Your Honours

9 to take a look at that statement.

10 If the ushers, as they're doing, would just slowly scroll so that

11 the statement can be read. I think Colonel Ciaglinski is indicating that

12 he'd like to see more of it. So if you'd just keep scrolling up.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's move it quite quickly, please. I can see

14 nothing at the moment.


16 Q. And if you indicate, Colonel, when you finish reading it, and with

17 the permission and indulgence of the Trial Chamber if we can then scroll

18 up a little bit more, but I don't want to go too fast, give everybody a

19 chance to read it.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I think everyone has had time. Let's move it up,

21 please.


23 Q. Okay. You've had a chance to read it?

24 A. Mm-hmm.

25 Q. First of all, let me ask you: Did you have a general comment

Page 6996

1 about it?

2 A. Yes, I'm surprised that -- well, in some ways I'm not surprised

3 that Afrim would write this but -- because he was a fairly -- I mean,

4 okay, he was a nice man and the reason we sacked him was he was quite

5 unreliable as a driver.

6 Q. As a driver?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. But I take it, do you change what you said before that you

9 had no reason to disbelieve what -- anything he would say?

10 A. Until I read this, yes.

11 Q. So, in other words, this is not true. Is the whole statement

12 false?

13 A. I wouldn't say that.

14 Q. Tell us what's false about it.

15 A. Can we go back, please, to the previous page?

16 As you know from earlier evidence given that the -- the contacts

17 with the KLA -- I mean, I didn't have contacts with the KLA, so I had no

18 way of receiving anything or sending anything to the KLA. The person who

19 had contact was -- one of them was David Wilson. The other one was David

20 Meyer, and David Meyer was the man with the sat firm and the sat faxes.

21 And David Meyer, I believe, was the man probably dealing with Afrim.

22 Q. Okay. Well, he says -- I'll ask you then something specific. He

23 says in his statement that: "The UCK commanders were passing information

24 along to me about the deployment of Serb forces in Kosova, the location of

25 Serb weaponry, the quantity of weaponry, and the specific location of Serb

Page 6997

1 troops. This information was initially being gathered for the OSCE

2 management. Richard Ciaglinski and David Meyer discussed this information

3 with me and suggested that it should perhaps be shared with NATO command.

4 I agreed it was a must."

5 Is that a true estimate?

6 A. Well, it's -- I've answered part of that because there's one

7 complete paragraph, isn't it, stop --

8 Q. Yes. Sure.

9 A. "Information initially being gathered for the OSCE." Well, I

10 wouldn't know, because if the UCK commanders were passing this information

11 as -- I've already explained it was David Meyer that would have been

12 talking to Afrim, if anyone.

13 What else can I say about that paragraph?

14 Q. So you actually deny speaking with him at all about this?

15 A. With Afrim?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I might have heard something about it, but I had nothing to do

18 about it.

19 Q. You might have heard something about it? Is that what you said?

20 A. Well, yes, about the -- Afrim was always trying to sort of -- he

21 was telling myself and others that he could actually get in touch with the

22 KLA.

23 Q. He says specifically that he discussed it with you and Mr. Meyer,

24 and that you and Mr. Meyer suggested that the information perhaps be

25 shared with NATO command. Is that true or not?

Page 6998

1 A. Not to my recollection.

2 Q. Could it have been -- could it have happened and you can't -- you

3 don't remember?

4 A. I don't think so.

5 Q. You don't think so or you know so?

6 A. Well, it's a fairly major statement, isn't it, so -- but I'm

7 saying no, I don't remember it.

8 Q. Okay. And he goes on to say: "Richard Ciaglinski was already in

9 touch with NATO, so we all agreed that he would pass this information

10 along to NATO."

11 Is that a true statement or not?

12 A. Well, part of it is. Richard was in touch with NATO, because that

13 was my role. I was the OSCE link to NATO.

14 Q. Did you agree to pass this information along to NATO?

15 A. I passed nothing to NATO.

16 Q. Okay. And the statement further goes on to say that: "Richard

17 has some friends who have been receiving fax messages from the UCK and

18 handing them to me for translation."

19 Was that -- is that true?

20 A. I didn't have -- I didn't have any friends in the -- in the UCK.

21 Q. Okay. And he also talks about a letter that was received from --

22 from KLA to pass along to General Clark, the commander of NATO forces, a

23 letter of 19 April 1999. Did you ever see such a letter?

24 A. I don't recall.

25 Q. Might you have?

Page 6999

1 A. Maybe if you show it to me I'll --

2 Q. Well, I have a problem about showing it to you, because we have

3 not included this as a -- an exhibit for cross. I have the letter in my

4 hand, but I don't know whether I would get permission of the Trial Chamber

5 to exhibit it to you, and I don't know if Mr. Hannis would object to

6 that.

7 MR. SEPENUK: Frankly, Your Honour, we received this from the

8 Prosecution, and -- but it's not -- you know, we can just deal with it in

9 our part of the case, if necessary. I have a hard copy here.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis?

11 MR. HANNIS: As long as Mr. Sepenuk will remember he owes me one I

12 have no objection.

13 MR. SEPENUK: According to my -- according to -- I missed that,

14 Mr. Hannis, I'm sorry. What did you say?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: He's just pointing out that if he takes no

16 objection you owe him one.

17 MR. SEPENUK: Oh. I might owe him less than that, Your Honour,

18 because Mr. Visnjic tells me that it's already -- it's in the system but

19 it hasn't -- it wasn't identified in an e-mail to Mr. Hannis, which I

20 regret.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: It may be that it doesn't help on the issue anyway

22 because it's more to do with direct contact between the KLA with NATO in

23 any event.

24 MR. SEPENUK: Yes. Except that Mr. Afrim Aziri says that this

25 letter was passed along directly to -- because he says: "It is my

Page 7000

1 understanding that a copy of that translation has been given to General

2 Clark," and I was simply wondering -- it's 4D32, as a matter of fact. The

3 letter is 4D32. And the only thing is I did not -- I don't believe our

4 e-mail to -- to Mr. Hannis mentioned that exhibit number. So technically

5 we're in violation of the court rules.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: But you may refer to it. There is no objection.

7 MR. SEPENUK: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. So why you don't you take a look. If you could put that on the

9 screen, 4D32. Just take a look at that letter, Colonel, and tell us

10 whether you recognise that letter.

11 A. No.

12 Q. You've never seen that letter?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. Of course it's Mr. Afrim Aziri's statement that that letter

15 was turned over to General Clark. Right. So I will -- and your answer is

16 no, you have --

17 A. I've never seen it.

18 Q. Okay. I'll ask you finally, having seen the contents of Mr. Afrim

19 Aziri's statement and what he says about your role in turning over

20 documents to the KLA, I'll ask you finally that question from Judge May

21 when he said: Colonel, can you assist us as to this: It is alleged that

22 the KLA and NATO were working together. As far as you were concerned, was

23 there any evidence of that?" You said: "No."

24 Is that, sir, your testimony today?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7001

1 MR. SEPENUK: That's all I have, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Sepenuk. Mr. Zecevic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, just one matter. It is not a

4 question, it is a clarification with the witness about the certain name.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

6 Q. Sir, during your testimony yesterday, the reference is row --

7 page 68, row 20 and 21.

8 You were referring to a person named -- named here in the

9 transcript Guy Sans. I believe the -- would you be so kind to -- to spell

10 his last name, please, just for the record, because it is spelled as

11 S-a-n-s in the transcript.

12 A. No. It's -- it's certainly S-a-n-d-s, but I can't remember if it

13 had an E, because he's American but a strange American. No aspersions are

14 being cast anywhere. But, no, he's -- it might have been S-a-n-d-s or

15 S-a-n-d-e-s, I'm not sure. It's not S-a-n-s for sure.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. That's all I had.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I thank you, Mr. Zecevic. I take it the reference

19 to strangeness was to spelling.

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course. I'm outnumbered, sir.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. Could we show the witness Exhibit 2D8.

23 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

24 Q. Colonel, Mr. Petrovic asked you on Monday about the commission for

25 cooperation, and he showed you a document which maybe you'll see on your

Page 7002

1 screen in a moment which related to the make-up of the commission in

2 Belgrade, and I think you'll recall it listed Mr. Sainovic as president

3 but then it names, as you can see now, 11 members of the commission.

4 A. Mm-hmm.

5 Q. If we can scroll down to those. Of those 11, did you know any of

6 these individuals or were any of them present in Pristina attending

7 meetings of the commission that met in Pristina?

8 A. Well, if number 9, if that's the administrator in Kosovo, Zoran

9 Andjelkovic, then, yes, I was -- I met him.

10 Q. Okay. And then we saw a supplement yesterday that there were two

11 additional members added later and that was Colonel Loncar and I believe

12 it was Dragoljub Janovic from the Ministry of Justice. We now Loncar was

13 in Pristina, how about Minister of Justice, Mr. Janovic? Was he ever in

14 Pristina?

15 A. I didn't come across him.

16 Q. And in Pristina, the representatives that you met with in

17 connection with the commission for cooperation, when Loncar and

18 Andjelkovic were both present, which one was in charge of the meeting?

19 A. Well, Loncar was -- when he was there, he ran the meetings. I

20 mean, he told us at one point that - I read my notes today - he was the

21 representative of the FRY government in Kosovo.

22 Q. And I think you've said in your statement and in your testimony

23 that there was at least one occasion when Mr. Sainovic came to town and

24 was present at a meeting?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7003

1 Q. Who presided at that meeting?

2 A. Mr. Sainovic.

3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday at page 6880, line 10, Mr. Petrovic was

4 asking you about whether or not it was a fact that the KLA rearmed and

5 reinforced and consolidated militarily during OSCE's presence there in

6 late 1998 and early 1999, and you agreed that was true. What about the VJ

7 and the MUP during that period of time? What were they doing?

8 A. Exactly the same.

9 Q. Thank you. Page 6891, line 8. Judge Bonomy asked you a question

10 to clarify something about the prisoners that you were visiting in Nis,

11 and I think you clarified those were KLA prisoners, but you had made a

12 reference to a number of soldiers as well, and I think you explained those

13 were VJ soldiers and there was some kind of exchange involving those. Can

14 you tell us briefly what that was all about and how was OSCE involved in

15 that matter?

16 A. Obviously the Serbian side wanted to get its soldiers back which

17 had been -- who had been captured just east of Vucitrn-Mitrovica area, and

18 obviously the KLA weren't going to release them when they knew that there

19 were also KLA prisoners sitting somewhere in Serbia. So following several

20 meetings but at very high level it was agreed that there would be an

21 exchange of prisoners, but the exchange of prisoners could not be seen as

22 an exchange of prisoners so there had to be a gap, a time gap, between the

23 relies of one and the realise of the others of the group.

24 Q. You say this discussion took place at very high levels --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 7004


2 Q. Who were the representatives on the respective sides in these

3 high-level negotiations about this exchange that was not going to be an

4 exchange of prisoners?

5 A. Well, on the Serbian side it was usually led by Mr. Sainovic.

6 Q. What about on the KLA side, if you know?

7 A. I don't. If the KLA were involved in these meetings I didn't go

8 to them.

9 Q. And from OSCE, was anyone involved in this?

10 A. Yes, of course. I believe you know -- I don't know if Mr. Walker

11 was present but certainly that was either the ambassador or DZ or somebody

12 from the OSCE.

13 Q. And do you know -- you said there had been a gap in between. Who

14 went first?

15 A. We released the VJ soldiers first.

16 Q. Why -- why was it being required that this not be seen as a -- a

17 direct exchange, if you know?

18 A. I didn't know, and it was - it was purely that -- it wasn't for

19 showing any weakness of government caving in to the KLA, caving in to

20 terrorists that this sort of exchange would take place and also probably

21 not to set any precedents.

22 Q. Thank you. Yesterday - I want to go to another Defence lawyer -

23 Mr. Cepic asked you some questions, and at page 6895, line 12, he was

24 talking about inspections of VJ facilities, and he asked you about the

25 problem that the army would have with no notice on inspections and a

Page 7005

1 requirement to have 24 hours notice. Do you recall that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. For the purposes of your mission, was it important to be able to

4 do inspections on little notice or no notice?

5 A. Well, yes. Of course.

6 Q. Why?

7 A. Because there were reinforcements coming in all the time and

8 equipments were coming in, and we were actually beginning to loose track

9 of what was actually in Kosovo and what had gone out of Kosovo and

10 therefore it was important to verify what was there, in agreement with the

11 original agreements.

12 Q. At page 6895, line 22 he mentioned that one of the agreements that

13 was worked out in connection with this locally, I guess, was that there

14 was a requirement for the presence of a liaison officer from the VJ when

15 you were going to do some of these inspections. Do you recall that?

16 A. I do, yes, mm-hmm.

17 Q. I think you said you helped draft that provision?

18 A. Yes, for the -- I did. I mean, I actually issued the instruction

19 and took it round the regional centres myself.

20 Q. Do you recall when that came to be a requirement, approximately?

21 A. Sometime in January.

22 Q. Okay. And did that apply only in the area of the border belt or

23 all across Kosovo?

24 A. It was specifically intended for the border belt because that's

25 where the problems were. However, Colonel Kotur and General Loncar did

Page 7006

1 actually want -- also required us if our verifiers wanted to visit a

2 military installation, but not to verify but just to visit.

3 Q. Okay. At page 6896, line 14 he asked you about the VJ's training,

4 exercise and training locations. I think in your answer you indicated

5 that you were told the VJ's position about training was that they could

6 train anywhere in Kosovo. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes. Initially they were saying they were deployed to certain

8 areas and then when they deployed there they said they were deployed

9 somewhere else, and when I questioned it they said they could deploy

10 anywhere, because the whole of Kosovo was a training area for them.

11 Q. Okay. Did -- didn't you understand that to include Kosovo

12 Albanian villages?

13 A. It was obvious that when they deployed the areas did include

14 Kosovo Albanian villages.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] It's already too late, Your Honour. I

17 think we got clear answers from this witness in the examination-in-chief

18 when Mr. Hannis questioned the witness on this same subject that he's

19 raising again, but thank you anyway for hearing me.


21 Q. When they -- when you saw VJ units go out in the field and deploy,

22 did you actually see this occur where they settle up a perimeter for a

23 training area that encompassed a Kosovo Albanian village?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And were you allowed in to inspect this particular deployment?

Page 7007

1 A. No. Well, there were several but one we were not allowed in until

2 we got clearances by satellite telephone to go in, and certainly another

3 area towards the -- right towards the end, again sort of south of Vucitrn

4 where there had been a lot of shelling and fighting going on, we were not

5 allowed actually towards the villages but we could see the burning

6 villages.

7 Q. Then later at page 6913, line 10 Mr. Cepic asked you about -- I

8 think it's Lapastica near Podujevo?

9 A. Mm-hmm.

10 Q. And there was an incident that you had mentioned where a Kosovo

11 Albanian doctor or physician had been killed. Mr. Cepic asked you whether

12 or not you had been there when it happened. You indicated no, you were

13 there a couple of days later. How did you find out about what happened

14 there? What was your source of information?

15 A. It came out in various ways. In the first place, our KLA liaison

16 officers had told us. Second, sort of more obviously than that, was we

17 were actually aware that there was fighting going on along that ridge and

18 when we were allowed to, eventually to go in, we went in and had a look,

19 and we found a number of bodies in the field and the body at the doctor's

20 house.

21 Q. Did you have any conversations with any of the Serb forces that

22 were deployed in that area?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What did they tell you about what had happened?

25 A. Well, when I questioned -- when I raised the point that this was a

Page 7008

1 medical station, they told me that as far as they're concerned that there

2 were terrorists in that area and it was a legitimate target.

3 Q. Next I want to go and if we could show the witness Exhibit 395.

4 While that's coming up, Colonel Ciaglinski, Mr. Ackerman was

5 asking you some questions about the -- the Holbrooke agreement and about

6 the OSCE's mission to verify the cease-fire, and you will recall your

7 discussion, I think, starting at page 6920. Yes. And there was a

8 question. You, I think, raised the issue that you had under the terms of

9 the various agreements you had access throughout Kosovo, and I believe

10 Mr. Ackerman was making the point, well, the mission, though, was to

11 verify the cease-fire, and there's no need for you to go in barracks,

12 et cetera, to verify a cease-fire.

13 Could we look at the next page of this exhibit. And if we could

14 scroll down, yes, to the paragraph that's underlined. Could you read for

15 us that paragraph?

16 A. Mm-hmm. "In order to further encourage the return to peace and

17 normality, the state authorities of the FRY will bring down the level of

18 presence and the equipment of security forces (MUP and VJ) throughout

19 Kosmet to normal levels, i.e., to the levels preceding the outbreak of

20 terrorist activities."

21 Q. And if we could scroll down to the bottom of the page. It

22 says: "With these goals in mind, the state authorities of the FRY have

23 announced the following measures," and on the bottom of this page they

24 talk about special police units that were deployed after February 1998

25 will be withdrawn.

Page 7009

1 Can we go to the next page, please.

2 Number 2: "Any additional heavy weapons or equipment brought in

3 or transferred after February 1998 are to be withdrawn or returned from

4 the MUP to the VJ."

5 Number 3: "Heavy weapons and equipment remaining under MUP

6 control will be returned to the police stations."

7 Number 4: "All VJ units and additional equipment brought in after

8 February 1998 will be withdrawn."

9 And number 5 about border guards.

10 Was this some of the kinds of things that you were trying to

11 verify?

12 A. They were, exactly.

13 Q. Was it necessary to go into garrisons to do that?

14 A. Yes. That's where the equipment was kept.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, on page 6947 Mr. Ivetic asked you several

16 questions on cross-examination, and one of them had to do with the point

17 about traffic or crime control roadblocks. To your knowledge, in Kosovo

18 at the time what kind of uniforms did the traffic police wear?

19 A. Traffic police wore a totally different uniform which was a

20 standard police uniform which was not combat kit but ordinary pair of

21 trousers, a belt, and a shirt.

22 Q. Okay. And these --

23 A. And a different hat, sorry.

24 Q. These 27 points, the check-points that were discussed in the

25 agreement, did you see traffic police at those check-points?

Page 7010

1 A. No. In fact, the 27 points, that was the maximum number of which

2 I think the agreement said no more than a third should be manned at any

3 one time, i.e., 9.

4 Q. What kind of police were seen by the OSCE verifiers at those

5 check-points when verifications were attempted?

6 A. Heavily armed MUP police in combat equipment.

7 Q. Do you know, were those the kind of police that were engaged in

8 crime control?

9 A. I don't think we saw much sort of crime control going on. It was

10 mainly sort of major operations in the field.

11 Q. Okay. If we set aside anti-terrorist, whether that's crime

12 control or something else.

13 A. Yes, I mean, crime control to me is quite different from

14 anti-terrorist operations. Normally anti-terrorist operations are carried

15 out by military.

16 Q. At page 6952, line 10 Mr. Ivetic showed you an entry from one

17 of DZ's annexes, I think at number 8, which had a 5 January 1999 entry

18 saying that all 27 OPs inspected, that most were occupied by the MUP.

19 At this time in January, did you observe MUP also in addition to

20 OPs having roving patrols?

21 A. Yes. The MUP were travelling, would be found everywhere in

22 Kosovo.

23 Q. Did the -- did the number of those roving patrols observed by OSCE

24 remain constant throughout or did they increase or decrease during the

25 time that you were there?

Page 7011

1 A. No, the MUP operations increased throughout our time.

2 Q. At page 6923, line 21, there was a document shown in a reference

3 to Mr. Nikolaev, who was described as a reconstruction man. I'm just

4 curious, what was a reconstruction man?

5 A. Oh, I see. The -- there was someone in charge of actually

6 reconstructing Kosovo, I think building new schools or new housing

7 developments. That's reconstruction, actually. There was a separate

8 Deputy Head of Mission responsible for that.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. And there was a separate one responsible for reviewing the

11 judiciary and that sort of thing.

12 Q. All right. You were also asked about a document that set forth

13 some of the discussions that you were having internally in the OSCE. One

14 of the things that was discussed was a concern about the possibility of

15 KLA fabricating incidents. Do you recall that?

16 A. Mm-hmm, yes.

17 Q. I think you said -- you discussed all kinds of possibilities

18 internally. Did you also discuss the possibility or concerns about Serbs

19 fabricating incidents?

20 A. Yes. We had to look at both sides and examine all possibilities

21 and how events were -- what had happened, how they had taken place, why

22 they were taking place, what could have been the motivation, the rationale

23 behind them.

24 Q. Finally, just a last couple of questions, and I've been informed

25 that Haeslip is spelled H-e-a-s-l-i-p.

Page 7012

1 A. I was close.

2 Q. Yes. Mr. Sepenuk asked you about were you aware that General DZ

3 had testified in Milosevic and indicated: "Nobody talked to me about the

4 plan."

5 Since you and DZ testified in the Milosevic case, and before

6 testifying here, did you have any conversation with him about that?

7 A. We -- I mean, we are good friends. You know, over the years

8 we've -- we've talked about all these issues, yes.

9 Q. Okay. Did you -- did you ever remind him, Hey, remember I told

10 you about this plan that Kotur told me about?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. And what did he respond when you told him that?

13 A. He agreed he hadn't actually told me. I told him and he -- he

14 remembers the conversation we had about it in general because there were

15 so many things happening, and he said it was just a possibility and it

16 just seemed likely, unlikely, he just didn't know what to make of it.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no other questions

19 for this witness.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave in the

23 redirect by Mr. Hannis a new topic arose on page 24, lines 15, 16, 17,

24 and 18. The witness mentioned something he had not mentioned before;

25 namely, the area of Vucitrn, or south of Vucitrn. He said there was a lot

Page 7013

1 of shelling and fighting, and the mission could not have access but could

2 see the villages burn. So that's page 24, lines 15 through 18.

3 If my memory serves me well, we did not hear these details before

4 from the witness, and they do not feature in his statement, so I would

5 like an opportunity to clarify these matters with the witness.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, this was in answer to my question

8 explaining about training areas sometimes involved setting up a perimeter

9 that included villages. I don't think he mentioned those specific

10 villages or locations before, but he did address that topic, and that was

11 a topic asked about on cross-exam.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, it's something that should not be

14 regarded as -- as normal procedure, but we shall allow you to ask a

15 maximum of three questions to clarify what you wish to clarify.

16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I have to express my great gratitude

17 to the Chamber.

18 Further cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ciaglinski, I already introduced myself to

20 you and asked you some questions.

21 Just with regard to these events south of Vucitrn. Was that in

22 March?

23 A. I believe so.

24 Q. Is it the case that the OSCE mission was represented by Captain

25 Ferdinand, Aleksander Lubarenko [phoen], and other persons in this matter?

Page 7014

1 Were they in charge on behalf of KVM?

2 A. It was an area that -- it was their regional area, but I and DZ

3 had roaming rights. We could go where and see what we liked. We didn't

4 have to ask the regional centres.

5 Q. I hope you agreed that those villages in the direction that you

6 were looking at were Brusnik and Bukos.

7 A. It was the villages to the south. I think one of them was Bukos,

8 yes.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I introduced

11 one exhibit in e-court, 5D26, just relating to -- to this particular

12 issue.

13 Thank you again for this opportunity.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Well, I've just a brief question to clarify a

16 position. While you were exercising your roaming rights and were keeping

17 a vigil on these places which were being obstructed or which were being

18 manned by people, did you wear your -- did you attire yourself in some

19 uniform?

20 A. We had no uniform, sir. The only thing we had were yellow hats

21 that we used to wear, but the most obvious thing about our presence were

22 the bright orange vehicles.

23 JUDGE CHOWHAN: And they were acquainted with the -- with the fact

24 that these belonged to your organisation?

25 A. Everyone recognised the orange vehicles, and I think a lot of

Page 7015

1 people at the check-points also were aware of who I was. I was referred

2 to quite a lot by the Serbian side as Mr. Richard.

3 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Okay. The second question is there was some

4 vagueness in the expression about the people who were attired there

5 manning these positions, because you knew that what VJ uniform was, but

6 these people were not attired, as you said, in the uniform of the police,

7 and some of the insignias also you could not see because you were not so

8 close. But please tell us, then, what sort of uniforms were these people

9 wearing who were manning these position posts and positions. Thanks a

10 lot.

11 A. Right, sir. The police had two uniforms; one was the normal

12 working uniform that they would wear in peacetime and in -- in the

13 headquarters; and the other one, for operational reasons, they would put

14 on military-type combat kit. But this combat kit wasn't green. It was

15 usually blue, sort of a mottled blue or dark blue uniform with helmets,

16 with webbing, which is the strapping that -- which holds the ammunition

17 belts, with boots.

18 So they were still police, but these were police that were

19 deployed on operations, so anti-terrorist operations as opposed to

20 carrying out routine traffic duties, routine investigations.

21 JUDGE CHOWHAN: And the people you found there who were posted

22 there while you were on your roaming exercise, they were wearing this

23 uniform you've just described?

24 A. Yes, sir. The MUP always wore in the field, we only saw them in

25 military-type -- police military-type uniforms.

Page 7016

1 JUDGE CHOWHAN: But police had that type of uniform?

2 A. They did, yes.

3 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thanks a lot.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: That completes your evidence, Mr. Ciaglinski.

5 Thank you for coming again to the Tribunal to give evidence. You're now

6 free to leave.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, your next witness.

10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, Ms. Kravetz will lead the next witness.

11 It's Gordana Tomasevic.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: The next witness is?

13 MS. KRAVETZ: As Mr. Hannis just indicated, the next witness is

14 Ms. Tomasevic. I will change places over to the other side.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: The schedule that you've provided for forthcoming

16 witnesses suggests that you will examine in witness for an hour. It's

17 becoming very difficult to keep control over the time used in the course

18 of the trial because witnesses are being presented not as originally I

19 think generally envisaged as mainly witnesses whose evidence would be in

20 writing or alternatively given live. It's not immediately obvious why it

21 should be necessary to examine this witness for an hour when we have the

22 statement and bearing in mind the nature of the evidence that's to be

23 given.

24 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, that is true. That's the estimate that

25 was indicated in the witness notification, but I assume I'm going to be

Page 7017

1 way under or well under that estimated time. I don't think I will --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the norm for this should be half an hour in

3 terms of our original approach to --

4 MS. KRAVETZ: We -- we are proposed --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: -- this type of evidence.

6 MS. KRAVETZ: That is correct, Your Honour, but we are proposing

7 this witness as a Rule 92 ter/live in the event that her evidence --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, this is a concept that really is one that

9 you've invented as the case has progressed. All your witnesses are -- as

10 it turns out are live because they're giving evidence by word of mouth

11 here, and then part of their evidence is being admitted in the form of

12 writing. But where the bulk of that evidence from a witness of this

13 nature is given in writing, we envisaged, as our order about time-keeping

14 indicated, that such witnesses would give live evidence for about half an

15 hour and that if you wanted to do something different you would apply to

16 us.

17 I know that the rules of the Tribunal changed from this 92 bis

18 situation to this 92 ter after the trial began, but this is the sort

19 situation where we envisaged that you would ask us and justify needing

20 more than half an hour to present this evidence, because if you don't do

21 that it gives us great difficulty in controlling cross-examination and the

22 time involved in cross-examination, and the tail's beginning to wag the

23 dog as far as allocation of time in the trial is concerned.

24 Now, what is about this evidence that requires more than half an

25 hour?

Page 7018

1 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I see your point, and I'm going to try

2 my best to stick to the half an hour that's usually allocated to

3 Rule 92 ter witnesses and --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you for that. And can you tell me whether

5 there are any named witness -- any named victims related to this evidence

6 or is this evidence of deaths which are unspecified in the indictment?

7 MS. KRAVETZ: In the forensic reports which we are going to seek

8 to tender through this witness, there are approximately 12 persons who are

9 named, 5 of whom are in -- persons who are named in our schedule.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Which schedule is that?

11 MS. KRAVETZ: Schedule F which deals with the Izbica killings.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Let's bring in the witness.

13 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I would like to point out before I

14 start with this witness that in the witness notification we included the

15 Rule 65 ter summary as filed in May of this year. Under the heading

16 updated summary, we have included some additional paragraphs that were

17 left out of the summary that was filed this year. I have inquired with

18 some of my colleagues. It seems that this was just simply due to an

19 oversight on our part, and I would seek leave to add those paragraphs back

20 to the Rule 65 ter summary of this witness.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And do you understand there is no objection to

22 that?

23 MS. KRAVETZ: I haven't heard anything from the Defence with

24 regard to this.

25 [The witness enters court]

Page 7019

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I have something

3 else to raise. I was just waiting for Ms. Kravetz to finish because we

4 had an agreement between us, and I thought she would sort of notify you

5 about it. It has nothing to do with this topic.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: The query at the moment is whether there is any

7 objection to the update to the 65 ter summary relating to this witness.

8 Well, I see no objections so we shall allow that.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: Now, with regard to the matter that Mr. Visnjic

10 wanted to bring up, prior to commencing court today we discussed the

11 possibility of tendering this statement, striking out one of the

12 paragraphs. So when -- at a later stage I will indicate which one of the

13 paragraphs we have agreed to strike out. If that's okay.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Good afternoon, Dr. Tomasevic.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry for talking across you as you came into

17 the courtroom but we hadn't quite concluded a discussion preliminary to

18 your evidence.

19 Could you now make the some declaration to speak the truth by

20 reading aloud the document which will be placed before you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

Page 7020

1 Ms. Kravetz.

2 Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

3 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Could you please state your full name

4 for the record.

5 A. My name is Gordana Tomasevic.

6 Q. And, Ms. Tomasevic, I understand that you are a forensic medicine

7 specialist currently employed at the military medicine academy in

8 Belgrade; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Since when have you been working at this institution,

11 Ms. Tomasevic?

12 A. From the 22nd of April, 1998.

13 Q. Ms. Tomasevic, did you provide a statement to the Office of the

14 Prosecution in March 2003?

15 A. Yes. On the 3rd and 5th March.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, this is P2490.

17 Q. Did you provide a second statement on 25th July, 2006, where you

18 made some clarifications to the evidence that you had provided in your

19 earlier statements and provided additional information?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Have you recently had time to review these statements and the

22 attachment to these statements?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And having reviewed these statements, are you satisfied that the

25 information contained in these statements accurately reflects the truth of

Page 7021

1 the events that you described there to the best of your knowledge and

2 recollection?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I seek to tender these two statements;

5 these are P2490, P2507. And the first statement has a series of

6 attachments; these are P2491 to P2499.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Will you be clarifying what these are as you

8 progress through the evidence?

9 MS. KRAVETZ: I'm not going to go through each of these

10 attachments. They are explained in the written evidence.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that, but how do we know which one is

12 which as far as numbers are concerned?

13 MS. KRAVETZ: I can -- yeah. I can go one by one, if you would

14 like.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it will be necessary, otherwise we won't know

16 which is which.

17 MS. KRAVETZ: P2491 is Annex I to the witness statement dated

18 March 2003.


20 MS. KRAVETZ: P2492 is Annex II which is an order issued by

21 investigating judge, Milutin Sekavic [phoen].

22 JUDGE BONOMY: And is it the same all the way up to 2499 that the

23 last number is the same as the number of the annex?

24 MS. KRAVETZ: They are the same.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. These will be admitted. You should

Page 7022

1 tell us which paragraph you're deleting from the statement, though,

2 otherwise it will be wrongly admitted.

3 MS. KRAVETZ: I was just going to do that, Your Honour.

4 We have agreed to strike out paragraph 2 of the statement, the

5 statement dated March 2003.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Very well. These statements will be

7 admitted with that deletion.


9 Q. Ms. Tomasevic, in paragraph 11 and 12 of your statement of March

10 2003, you indicate that on 10 May 1999 you were informed that you and your

11 colleagues were to travel to Nis and to report to the Nis military

12 hospital to Dr. Kostic at the military hospital there. When you were

13 provided this information, were you provided any reasons as to why you

14 were being sent to Nis?

15 A. No. I was just verbally informed that on the 11th of May I should

16 report to Dr. Kostic in Nis. He was director of the military hospital in

17 Nis, and nothing else was said. I received no other order in relation to

18 that.

19 Q. Now, in paragraph 14 of the same statement you indicate that once

20 you -- that you arrived at the Nis hospital, reported to Mr. Kostic, he

21 indicated that you were to travel to Pristina in Kosovo but that he did

22 not provide further information as to what would be your task in Kosovo.

23 Was it the regular procedure for you to be sent to the field in this

24 manner with no information as to the tasks that you were going to be

25 carrying out?

Page 7023

1 A. No. That was no regular procedure by any means. For that kind of

2 job, if anybody is sending you anywhere, and especially to war, you had to

3 have written orders.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm likely to appear particularly -- the word I

5 would use but perhaps you're not familiar with is pernickety today in view

6 of what happened yesterday afternoon. The two questions you've asked so

7 far are clearly answered in the statement, and we really must use this

8 time to better advantage than simply asking the witness to go over what

9 she's clearly set out in the statement.

10 I do, however, have a -- assuming that you've passed paragraph 12,

11 I have a question about paragraph 12 of the statement where you say that

12 the instruction for this came by telegram. Was that an appropriate way in

13 which to get an instruction for this type of work?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That was not the regular

15 procedure, and I received no cable, no telegram that day. I got hold of

16 that telegram after I came back of Kosovo in mid-June, and only because I

17 insisted. I don't remember anymore who finally gave it to me. So

18 initially I received no orders and no telegram about that business trip.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: For the avoidance of any doubt on this paragraph,

20 the very last sentence in English says: In fact -- and this is a

21 reference to Dr. Strbac, he had -- did you mean to say never seen a

22 decomposed dead body?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right. He had not seen a decomposed

24 dead body because he's a pathologist and I'm a forensic pathologist.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: It's to clarify the use of the English language

Page 7024

1 which was a problem.

2 Ms. Kravetz.

3 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mm-hmm.


6 Q. Ms. Tomasevic, in your statement you referred to your arrival to

7 Pristina, and you indicate that upon arriving you were directed to the

8 command headquarters. Who directed you to present yourself there to the

9 command headquarters?

10 A. I really can't remember. We received instructions that upon

11 arrival in Pristina we should report to the command. We did that. The

12 military command was located in a hotel. I don't remember the name of the

13 hotel. And we were met by Generals Pavkovic and Lazarevic. I mean they

14 met the whole of my team.

15 Q. Do you recall what was discussed during that first meeting with

16 Generals Pavkovic and Lazarevic?

17 A. Nothing much. We just chatted. They offered us coffee and drinks

18 and that was all for that day.

19 Q. Now, you referred in paragraph 16 to a second meeting that you had

20 at the same location with General Pavkovic and Lazarevic. Do you recall

21 who else was present during this second meeting?

22 A. That second meeting was on the 22nd May when we were invited to

23 attend the military command in order to be sent to the first mission, to

24 the first location, that is, and if I remember well there was General

25 Dzakovic and some other officers, but I really can't tell you more.

Page 7025

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I -- can I take it that between the 12th of May

2 and the 22nd of May you didn't just stay in Pristina? Did you go back to

3 your normal working duties during these 10 days?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We were there all the time left

5 to our own devices.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.


8 Q. Now, Ms. Tomasevic, you indicate that during the second meeting

9 General Pavkovic explained to you that you were going to use your

10 expertise for the purpose of asanacija. What did you understand that he

11 was referring to by this comment?

12 A. He explained to us, and I gathered myself, that we were to be

13 engaged in so-called sanitization jobs, which imply the taking of hygienic

14 and sanitization measures, specifically collecting corpses, performing

15 post-mortems and, if possible, identification before burial in order to

16 prevent the spreading of contamination or infection. When the bodies have

17 been autopsied, they are then buried into either mass or individual

18 graves. That is the procedure that was followed both in peacetime and in

19 wartime.

20 Q. Now, you indicate in paragraph 17 that during this meeting you

21 received a verbal order from General Pavkovic to attend an abandoned house

22 in a location called Staro Cikatovo. Do you recall exactly what were his

23 instructions, what you were going to be carrying out at this location as a

24 duty?

25 A. He was not in a position to give any instructions except the order

Page 7026

1 itself because he doesn't know what the job of a forensic pathologist is.

2 So concerning that location, in view of the fact that I am a forensic

3 pathologist, and I am the only one there, and I work only on the orders,

4 written orders, of an investigating judge, and I insisted to get that

5 order, so as to see on whose orders I'm working, he told me to that under

6 he said, There is no order, I'm ordering you verbally. And that's how we

7 had to go to that location.

8 Q. Now, you described in the -- in the following paragraphs 18 and 19

9 what you saw at that location. When you returned to Pristina, I

10 understand you prepared a report based on your observations of what the --

11 of your findings at this location. Was this report ever handed over to

12 General Pavkovic?

13 A. Well, no. It cannot be. It couldn't be submitted to him because

14 he wasn't the one who could order it. And anyway, it wasn't done by

15 orders of the court. And anyway, General Pavkovic did not ask for the

16 report from that location.

17 Q. Did anyone --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Doctor, where is the report?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those reports, I don't know if they

20 are still in existence. I used to have them. They were written and they

21 were signed complete with photo documentation that I received at my own

22 personal request some years ago, but where they are I really don't know.

23 That -- what matters is that I didn't submit them to anybody.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. I understand that matters to you and why,

25 but what matters to us more importantly is what it's in them. Has no one

Page 7027

1 ever asked you to try to trace the report? The Prosecutor, did they ask

2 you before coming to try and trace this report?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. Nobody asked for reports

4 from that location.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Has a letter of request been sent to the government

6 of Serbia for this report?

7 MS. KRAVETZ: I understand, Your Honour, the witness has never

8 handed the report over to local -- any local authorities, and it was my

9 understanding that the report is no longer in her possession, but maybe

10 the witness can clarify this point.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: What did you do with the report?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now I really don't know where

13 those reports are, whether I destroyed them, maybe, but I doubt that. I

14 wrote the report up then in 1999 when I came back. I was hoping that

15 somebody would ask for them but nobody did. And the reports were not done

16 on the orders of the court. I, as a forensic pathologist, had no one to

17 give them to. So the only thing that could have happened is that they

18 stayed with me.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: But you can't remember whether you still have it?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably. I don't know.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it might have been a good idea to ask the

22 witness to have a look before she came, but there we go, it's too late

23 now.

24 Move on.

25 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour. I know a request for

Page 7028

1 assistance was made with regard to the other reports, and we do have those

2 in our possession.

3 Q. Now, in your statement you indicate that you were tasked with

4 three further examinations, and I want to direct your attention to the

5 examinations that you performed on 101 bodies that were brought from

6 Izbica in Srbica municipality.

7 I understand from your written evidence that you personally did

8 not attend the exhumations that were carried out at this location at

9 Izbica but that your colleague, Dr. Strbac, was present. Do you recall

10 what information he provided, if any, regarding these exhumations that

11 were carried out in Izbica?

12 A. We did not discuss that. He just told me that the graves were

13 individual, the bodies were buried individually. That was all. We didn't

14 talk about that anymore.

15 Q. Now, Ms. Tomasevic, I understand that the bodies were brought from

16 Izbica in trucks to locations in Kosovska Mitrovica where you carried out

17 the examinations. At what location specifically did you carry out this

18 examination?

19 A. On the first day, on 3rd June, we tried to perform external

20 examinations, that is autopsies, in an area next to the hospital in

21 Kosovska Mitrovica. However, the conditions were very bad. The place was

22 very narrow, teeming with flies, and then we decided to do it in a hangar

23 also in Kosovska Mitrovica. So we continued to perform the autopsies in

24 that hangar for three days.

25 Q. And other than your team who else was present during these

Page 7029

1 examinations in this hangar?

2 A. Apart from the members of my team, this was attended as specified

3 in the order of the investigating judge, scene of crime technicians from

4 the SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica, and men from the so-called utilities

5 company; also from Kosovska Mitrovica.

6 Q. Now, did you prepare an individual report for each one of these

7 bodies that you examined at this location?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we please have Exhibit P248 be brought up in

10 e-court. Could I have the English version here. Could we zoom in on

11 the -- thank you.

12 Q. Do you recognise this document, Ms. Tomasevic?

13 A. Yes. Yes. I wrote up these autopsy protocols as they're called.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... my screen at

15 the moment.


17 Q. Ms. Tomasevic, I see that the date on this report is 3rd June

18 1999. You indicated, however, in your statement of July of this year that

19 all the reports have the same dates but that your examinations were

20 carried out in a period of three days, from 3rd to 5th June; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes. I would just like to add that I did not turn over my autopsy

23 protocols to the investigating judge. Instead, on the 30th December 2003,

24 for completely different reasons I turned them over for safekeeping to the

25 first municipal court in Belgrade. How they landed here, I don't

Page 7030

1 understand. They are quite incomplete, and they have not been signed by

2 me. And I would also like to point out to certain errors that exist in

3 every protocol.

4 Q. Okay. You indicated that there are some errors in this protocol.

5 Could you tell us what those errors are that you would have liked to

6 correct at the time?

7 A. Yes, I can say that. First of all, the most important error that

8 is the greatest concern to you -- let me first explain why I made these

9 mistakes. I did this in 1999 when I made the first autopsy protocol. I

10 just numbered the other ones by copying and pasting the reference number.

11 So the mistakes were copied. I said that they were attended, the

12 post-mortems were attended by military police members, which is not true.

13 They were attended by civilian police. The military police had nothing to

14 do with it.

15 Then I said the photographing was done by Ivica Jovanovic, because

16 that was the only name that I could remember. Instead, I should have said

17 scene of crime officers from the SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica.

18 Third mistake, the descriptions of damage on clothing is missing,

19 and this damage is not compared to the wounds and injuries on the body.

20 The -- another mistake is that the date is wrong. The date is the same on

21 all protocols, and they were in fact done over three days.

22 The bodies were brought in black bags, and since they were exhumed

23 by excavator certain damage was inflicted on the bodies in the course of

24 excavations. So I described such damage as defects rather than injuries.

25 Those are the major mistakes. In other terms, I would not change

Page 7031

1 anything to these protocols.

2 Q. I think we're having a problem with e-court. I can't seem to get

3 an English -- okay.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll have our break at this stage.

5 Doctor, we have to break at this time each day and we break for

6 about 20 minutes or so. While we have this break, you need to leave the

7 courtroom. So could you go with the usher and he will show you where to

8 wait and we'll see you in about 20 minutes' time.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: We will resume at 10 past 4.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Kravetz.

14 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes. Could we have page 3 of the -- this exhibit up

15 on e-court.

16 Q. Ms. Tomasevic, you have a section called "Conclusions" in front of

17 you, on the screen in front of you.

18 Could we zoom in on that, please. Thank you.

19 Ms. Tomasevic, in this section under the heading "Conclusion," you

20 state that the corpse -- that in this case the corpse that you examined

21 was in an advanced state of putrefaction and that the time and cause of

22 death could not be determined with reliability, but it was possible to

23 confirm the wounds.

24 And in the second paragraph you say that the wounds on the corpse

25 were to the trunk probably inflicted by projectiles from -- it says in the

Page 7032

1 English "side-arms." I believe this is a typo; it should say "fire-arms."

2 Ms. Tomasevic, from what you could observe on these bodies, were

3 most of the bodies have this type of injuries that you assumed were from

4 fire-arms, or is this case that we're looking at now an exception?

5 A. No. The bodies or, rather, the people were probably killed by

6 projectiles fired from fire-arms, as far as I can recall. With one corpse

7 we had a blunt injury, whereas all the others were probably killed by

8 fire-arms.

9 Q. Now, based on your observations did most of these -- were most of

10 these bodies dressed in civilian clothes or did you also find bodies

11 dressed in any -- some sort of uniform, either a complete uniform or part

12 of a uniform?

13 A. The bodies were in civilian clothes for the most part. There were

14 several bodies in black KLA uniforms.

15 Q. Now, before the break you indicated to us some corrections that

16 you would have liked to make, or some errors that are contained in these

17 reports. If you had had the time would you have also modified these

18 conclusions or do these conclusions reflect accurately your findings as to

19 the examinations that you conducted on these bodies?

20 A. I wouldn't change the conclusions. The conclusions contain

21 everything I could -- all the conclusions I could come to after the

22 autopsy.

23 As for the other facts concerning the existing wounds

24 characteristics based on which I concluded that they probably resulted

25 from gunshot -- from fire-arms injuries, and as for the trajectory canals

Page 7033

1 and due to the fact that many injuries result from such canals and from

2 entry/exit wounds as well as the comparison between the damage to the

3 clothes and the injuries, the number of injuries, the sequence of injuries

4 as well as the mechanism which caused the injuries, as well as concerning

5 the information on which of those injuries were the result of death, all

6 of those facts could be addressed by me only as an expert, but as someone

7 who carried out an autopsy, I produced these conclusions. This is all I

8 could do in that capacity. For such type of information, I would have had

9 to have received another order from the investigative judge to clarify.

10 As a forensic pathologist, I usually receive an order from the

11 investigative judge to carry out a forensic autopsy. After that, I make

12 conclusions on the cause of death, and I state what weapon was used,

13 whether it was a fire-arm or blunt instrument. I put that in my

14 conclusions, and I forward the report to the investigative judge.

15 Then the investigative judge needs to draft another report for an

16 expert examination, and he can task me or another forensic pathologist

17 with doing that.

18 In case of fire-arm injuries, the investigative judge would

19 request information from the expert on the cause of death. This would

20 include the instrument used, the sequence of injuries, and the injuries

21 which caused death and all the aforementioned factors. I also need to

22 categorise the injuries as well as the mechanism behind them, as well as

23 to specify the type of weapons used. As for the latter, I would need a

24 ballistics expert for that. A forensic pathologist does not make

25 conclusions as to the types of weapons used to cause injuries.

Page 7034

1 Q. Thank you. Now, very briefly, I understand that some of these

2 body-bags in which the bodies were brought contained some wooden grave

3 markers that were found at the site in Izbica, and these markers indicated

4 the names of some of these persons; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. During the exhumation, in certain graves we found wooden

6 markers which resembled small ladders, pieces of wood with Albanian names

7 on them. All such markers were put in bags together with the bodies and

8 transported to Kosovska Mitrovica, and I noted that in my autopsy reports.

9 I believe only a few bodies had such markers. This was noted in the

10 paragraph pertaining to clothing.

11 For example, I can't see it in this report, but when describing

12 clothing, after that the next sentence would be "Together with the body

13 there is a marker being forwarded with a specific name engraved." This is

14 as much as I can recall, and it was only in several cases.

15 Q. I understand from your -- your written evidence that you concluded

16 these examinations on 5th June 1999. Did you carry out any further

17 taskings while in Kosovo after you completed the Izbica examinations?

18 A. No. We left Kosovo on the 14th of June. In the period between

19 the 5th and the 14th of June we were also left to our devices, and we

20 didn't do much.

21 Q. And these reports that you prepared on the basis of your

22 examinations were never -- you told us you -- they were never handed to

23 local authorities at the time. Were you ever paid for them at any later

24 stage, for these examinations that you conducted?

25 A. No. I was never paid for it. I have knowledge from my sources

Page 7035

1 who were close to the then government who told me that the then minister

2 of justice and minister of finance told me that -- that they wouldn't pay

3 a penny. I was told by their own assistants never to hand over the

4 documentation until I receive my fee. I have my attorney working on it,

5 my lawyer, and this procedure is still pending. It is still before our

6 courts, and I have believe and I hope that it will be resolved soon.

7 I also wanted to state that I never asked an apartment or a rank

8 or a promotion for the job I did. This would have been far better for me,

9 but I only wanted to receive what I was due according to the criminal law

10 and laws of our country.

11 Q. You stated earlier that you later left these reports in custody at

12 a court. In which court did you leave these reports in custody? Where

13 exactly?

14 A. It was the First District Court in Belgrade. As I said, I learned

15 from some people who were highly positioned then and who were members for

16 the National Committee for Cooperation with The Hague Tribunal that they

17 tried to state that I wasn't in possession of such information whatever,

18 and although they knew I had it because I was on the spot, there was also

19 a criminal report submitted against me by Mr. Svilanovic for the offence

20 of obstruction of evidence.

21 First of all, I wanted to show that I had that documentation.

22 Second of all, I have my lawyer working on it to who advised me to hand

23 the documentation over so as to prove that I indeed have it. I deposited

24 it with the First Belgrade Court in December 2003. I handed over the

25 complete documentation, including photographs, which was subsequently

Page 7036

1 forwarded by the crime scene technicians who had taken them. Those people

2 were from the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP.

3 Q. Thank you, Ms. Tomasevic.

4 MS. KRAVETZ: Those are all my questions for this witness, Your

5 Honour. I wish to tender Exhibit P248, which is this collection of

6 forensic autopsies for the Izbica bodies. And I wish to point out to Your

7 Honours, as I indicated earlier, there are five named victims in our

8 schedule that are referred to in these reports. Maybe I could indicate

9 the number of the forensic report just to facilitate reference at a

10 further --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

12 MS. KRAVETZ: So this is number 55. It's Mr. Bekir Musliu.

13 Number 83, Ali Dragaj. Number 84, Asim Osmani. Number 88 is Istric

14 Srepmali [phoen]. And number 93 is Simber Shala.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the means of identification of these as

16 victims here?

17 MS. KRAVETZ: You mean the names in the forensic reports or the

18 evidence we have?

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. How is it that you identify that these bodies

20 examined by this witness included these five named persons?

21 MS. KRAVETZ: There -- there were witnesses who have testified

22 before this court already with regard to Izbica have provided evidence as

23 to the identity of these persons. For example, I can give you one

24 example, concrete example, is number 83, Ali Dragaj. We have evidence

25 from Witness Mustafa Dragaj who names him as being present in his group of

Page 7037

1 persons in Izbica when these killing incidents took place. There's also

2 evidence from Ms. -- Dr. Liri Loshi who filmed the bodies as you will

3 probably recall in Izbica on -- in the aftermath of after these events,

4 and Ali Dragaj's body actually is shown on the photograph. They're

5 attached to his statement and the video that we tendered through Mr. Liri

6 Loshi, and you will see his body has a name tag with his name and the

7 information concerning date of birth, which corresponds to what is in this

8 report.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: And is that the basis for linking the autopsies to

10 the victims, that the victim had a name tag, as it were, in -- along with

11 the body?

12 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes. And as the witness just indicated and has also

13 explained in her statement, some of the bodies came -- the body-bags had

14 wooden plates --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: That's what I'm referring to. Are all five that

16 you've named here, do they fall into that category?

17 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes. The person I referred to, Ali Dragaj, I think

18 he had his identity card in his pocket and so that's how he was identified

19 by Ms. Tomasevic.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And does that apply to the other four, that it's

21 that kind of identification that's being done here?

22 MS. KRAVETZ: It's identification either because they have the

23 documents on them at the time they were examined by Ms. Tomasevic or the

24 wooden plate with the name which was put at the burial site was included

25 in the body-bag which --

Page 7038

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can -- can I ask you a question about paragraph 67

2 and 68 of the statement of the -- of March 2003? Are these two paragraphs

3 part of the letter?

4 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honour. This is part of the exhibit, of

5 the attachment to this statement. It's not clear from the -- from the way

6 it's been included here in this statement, but this is part of the

7 attachment to the statement.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. And P248 will be admitted.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, we will follow the indictment in this

12 case, and the Milutinovic Defence has no questions.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

16 MR. VISNJIC: No questions, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic.

18 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Dr. Tomasevic. I have a few

21 questions for you.

22 The first topic I want to deal with concerns your departure to

23 Kosovo.

24 I would kindly ask the Registrar to put P2491 on e-court. It is a

25 telex --

Page 7039

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, telegram.

2 Q. -- sent to Mr. Spasic by Mr. Krgovic. The penultimate sentence of

3 the document reads: "The transport and travel will be carried out

4 pursuant to orders of the administration of the VMA." Page 2, please.

5 The part written by hand has two sentences. The sentence number

6 two says: "The order is issued by the VMA administration."

7 Do you know of this order?

8 A. No. I've never seen it. As I stated previously, I managed to

9 retrieve the telegram in mid-June, I believe. If I returned on the 14th

10 of June, it must have been around the 20th.

11 Q. Concerning that and paragraph 12 of your first statement, this

12 being P2490, you say that when you came to the VMA you said you were told

13 that civilians do not receive orders but only military officers, and

14 Mr. Strbac was appointed as head of the team, and he was an officer.

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. In your July statement, you clarify that on the 10th of May you

17 were called by Major Strbac and he told you to report to the military

18 hospital in Nis. And then you said: "I don't know where the order

19 received on Mr. Strbac originated from, where it came from."

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. The next topic has to do with the Staro Cikatovo location. In

22 paragraph 18 of your statement from 2003, you state that you were taken to

23 the house by some soldiers, and once you arrived some 300 metres away you

24 heard machine-gun fire. As relating -- relates to that, in paragraph 20

25 you say: "There is no evidence based on which an identification could

Page 7040

1 have been carried out, and the autopsies were not carried out because of

2 the conditions there."

3 And my question was: What were the conditions?

4 A. First of all, I didn't say it was machine-gun fire. I do not have

5 such knowledge of weaponry. That was the way it was interpreted. I said

6 I heard bursts of gunfire.

7 Second of all, you being a lawyer should know that an autopsy

8 should not and must not be done in wartime, in war conditions, and nowhere

9 in the world do you see autopsies carried out during combat activities.

10 They occur only after the signing of truce. It is only in the territory

11 of the former Yugoslavia that the military academy teams engaged in such

12 risky jobs.

13 Q. Thank you, Ms. Tomasevic. As opposed to the other three locations

14 you testified on, the Staro Cikatovo location saw no exhumation and no

15 autopsy. Am I correct?

16 A. You're not. There was no exhumation because the bodies were in an

17 abandoned house. The external examination I carried out would equal

18 carrying out autopsy in peacetime and it was wartime there. I also made

19 some dental examinations, something I didn't do in the other locations.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel and witness should pause between

21 question and answer.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you just bear with me a moment. Because

23 you're speaking the same language the interpreters have difficulty keeping

24 up with your pace. It's important that when Mr. Aleksic finishes his

25 question you wait and just to allow the interpretation to catch up.

Page 7041

1 You'll see from the screen in front of you when it runs out.

2 Now, could you start that answer again, please, if you remember

3 the question clearly.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember what the question was.

5 There was no exhumation because the bodies were in an abandoned

6 house, and this was probably repeated when I was giving my interpretation

7 and must be in my statement when I said that autopsies are not carried out

8 in wartime.


10 Q. [Interpretation] As regards that, you said that the military crime

11 scene technicians photographed the site. On page 43, line 18, 19 and

12 further on, you stated that you received the photographs from that

13 location?

14 A. Yes, upon my insistence. I received it from Leskovac some two

15 years ago, I believe. I received all the photographs of the spot and the

16 bodies. I didn't have them back in March 2003, although I do have them

17 now.

18 Q. Can you tell us how and from whom you received the documentation?

19 A. I have the official letter which accompanied it. My security

20 officers from the VMA are familiar with that. I -- I sent out a request

21 to someone in Leskovac and I received that from Leskovac.

22 Q. Does this pertain to the military judiciary or the military police

23 bodies?

24 A. Yes. In any case, it pertains to the military organs.

25 Q. After this event in Staro Cikatovo you were in contact with the

Page 7042

1 investigating judges of the military court affiliated to the command of

2 the Pristina Corps with regard to the next locations?

3 A. The next locations, yes.

4 Q. In those communications did you mention this report and the

5 location of Staro Cikatovo?

6 A. No, never.

7 Q. When you came back to your employer, the military medical academy,

8 did you inform any of your superiors or the chief of your section, your

9 supervisor?

10 A. Of course. Of course I informed my then chief, Dr. Zoran

11 Stankovic. I tried to get hold of information because he's a man of great

12 experience with wartime and war conditions, and he told me that he would

13 not be standing behind me. He would not be supporting me. He's

14 absolutely not interested in my protocols, and he would not place his

15 signature on my protocols as my supervisor, nor would he allow the seal of

16 the institute of forensic medicine to be placed on them.

17 Q. Can you tell me during your stay in Pristina were you in contact

18 with the chief of the sanitary service of the Pristina Corps?

19 A. I don't even know who that is.

20 Q. Just two more questions. During the examination-in-chief, you

21 spoke about sanitization and the notion of sanitization as explained by

22 General Pavkovic, and you said that this job involves taking steps

23 necessary for identification of bodies and establishing the cause of

24 death.

25 My question is: Everything that you and your team did in May and

Page 7043

1 June in Kosovo had to do with steps to identify the bodies and establish

2 the cause of death; is that correct?

3 A. My job was to perform post-mortems, plus identification only if

4 the latter is possible, and we have to know that this was wartime.

5 Identification is possible only with the attendance of family members.

6 But if we were dealing with unidentified corpses, that is not possible,

7 and we were dealing with unidentified corpses in my case.

8 Q. But you did take all the other steps towards that objective?

9 A. Which objective?

10 Q. Well, you said your job involved taking steps to perform

11 post-mortems and identify the bodies and establish the cause of death.

12 A. I don't remember saying that at all.

13 Q. In paragraph 16 of your statement --

14 A. I read my statement, and I saw that sentence. I think that is

15 something that is implied when the investigating judge writes his order.

16 He writes the order, and then it's a matter of course that the pathologist

17 should try to identify the body. But if there is no family, if there are

18 no friends, then the burial is performed by the utilities company of that

19 municipality.

20 Q. Thank you, Doctor. I have no more questions for you.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

22 MR. CEPIC: Yeah, that's me. Thank you, Your Honour. I do

23 apologise. I do have a problem with the earphones.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon. My name is Djuro Cepic,

Page 7044

1 attorney-at-law. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. I'll try to speak a little more slowly, which is unusual for our

4 language, but that is all for the benefit of the interpreters.

5 You mentioned that upon arrival in Kosovo you had two meetings

6 with Generals Pavkovic and Lazarevic. Those meetings were attended by a

7 number of persons. Can you tell me: Apart from the team that you led,

8 were those meetings attended by some other teams or members of teams?

9 A. No, just my team.

10 Q. And do you know that at that time in Kosovo, apart from the team

11 that you led, there were any other expert teams?

12 A. You mean from the military academy in Belgrade or Pristina?

13 Q. Tell me first about the military medical academy.

14 A. I remember that before I departed Dr. Stankovic was there. How

15 long he stayed, I don't know. When he came back another team left led by

16 the present chief, Dr. Milosavljevic, together with pathologist Kosta from

17 Nis. I saw him only on the first day when I arrived on the 12th of May,

18 and I know that he had some health problems and General Lazarevic gave him

19 permission to leave, and he did not come back again. So we spent all of

20 34 days there, which is absolutely inhuman, because teams are relieved

21 every 10 days normally.

22 Q. I understand. I see that from your statement. I'll try to put my

23 questions concisely and I would appreciate similar answers.

24 This conversation that you had with General Pavkovic, is it

25 correct that he asked you to do your best in keeping with the rules of

Page 7045

1 your profession, to perform all the required activities?

2 A. No, he didn't ask any such thing.

3 Q. So it was an informal conversation.

4 A. Well, we arrived on the 12th of May. He explained that as a

5 medical expert team we were supposed to do the sanitization of terrain,

6 and I confirmed to him that I understood the term "sanitization" in that

7 way. And before I left I consulted with Professor Dunjic, who was my

8 greatest and only teacher, and he also had explained to me before what

9 sanitization meant, and General Pavkovic is not familiar with forensic

10 medicine, so he wasn't able to tell me anything.

11 Q. That was precisely going to be my next question. He is not

12 competent to tell you what you --

13 A. Of course he's not competent to tell me what I'm supposed to do.

14 Q. Far from that. Let us come back to Staro Cikatovo. On that

15 occasion, there were military investigating bodies present?

16 A. No, just soldiers or officers. Nothing like an investigating

17 judge. There was scene-of-crime officers from the military, yes, but not

18 military investigators, if you mean the investigating judge or somebody

19 else.

20 Q. Please allow me. This is my field of expertise as it happens.

21 Even scene-of-crime officers belong with the military investigating

22 bodies.

23 A. Very well. But as a lawyer, you know that I'm supposed to work

24 only on orders of the court.

25 Q. Of course I know that.

Page 7046

1 A. Makes me very happy to hear that.

2 Q. Are you aware that there is documentation from this site? You

3 said that it was only in 2003 that you got it at your own insistence.

4 A. I didn't say anything about 2003.

5 Q. You explicitly said in response to questions by -- questions by

6 Mr. Aleksic that it was only in March 2003 that you got documentation from

7 the military prosecutor's office.

8 A. March 2003. I'm not aware of that. You must not have been

9 listening. I don't know when I got it. Maybe two or three years ago, but

10 nothing about March 2003. If I had known that, I would also have known

11 from whom I had received it.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you, Doctor. Do you know that all this material

13 taken over by military investigating bodies was deposited and turned over

14 to the court, military court during combat actions and they still have a

15 copy?

16 A. Which military court and which documentation? I don't understand.

17 Q. Documents related to Staro Cikatovo, the time you spent there, the

18 work you did there, the protocols, the photographs, everything that was

19 done was turned over under the Law on Criminal Procedure to the --

20 A. I'm sorry, my documents were not turned over to anyone.

21 Q. We're not talking about your documents. I'm talking about the

22 on-site investigation report, the photo documentation from the site.

23 A. I have all that. I've said that. I got it -- I got that material

24 at my own request. The on-site investigation report and the photo file

25 relating to that site and the bodies, I have that.

Page 7047

1 Q. And you are aware that exist -- that it existed from the very

2 first moment.

3 A. Of course it existed. There were people there who photographed

4 every body. I as a forensic pathologist have the obligation to have every

5 corpse photographed.

6 Q. That is your obligation in relation to the corpses, and as we have

7 seen - I'll try to speak more slowly - in your Exhibit P248 every corpse

8 was photographed four or five times, and those photographs make an

9 integral part of your autopsy reports.

10 A. From what I remember, I have only one photograph per corpse in the

11 material I got from Leskovac, not four or five.

12 Q. What about the autopsy reports from Izbica?

13 A. In those I have more per body; several hundred photographs in

14 total.

15 Q. Thank -- I thank the interpreters. I am indeed sorry for speaking

16 too fast.

17 Let us clarify one more point, Doctor. It is your obligation to

18 get pictures of the bodies, but according to the letter of the Law on

19 Criminal Procedure and in keeping with the rules of your profession, you

20 need photographs for your own expertise and other photographs regarding

21 exhumation and other relevant affairs are the responsibility of

22 scene-of-crime technicians and they are probably turned over to

23 investigating judges?

24 A. Correct. I never get exhumation photographs.

25 Q. Thank you. That was one dilemma concerning your statement because

Page 7048

1 you said you did not receive those photographs.

2 A. On the contrary. I think I said in my statement that it was not

3 unusual at all for me not to get pictures from the exhumations. You

4 should have read it more carefully.

5 Q. I read it carefully.

6 A. I said it was not at all unusual.

7 Q. Let me just check that everything is correctly recorded in the

8 transcript, that everything that has been said is in the transcript.

9 I'm sorry, Your Honour. Page 64, line 4, unfortunately due to the

10 speed of this exchange, it's not the whole answer. The answer is: "Thank

11 you. I never got scene-of-crime photographs."

12 However, the real answer was a bit longer, considerably longer.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: I doubt if it's going to assist us very much,

14 Mr. Cepic, to know any more than we've already got from the witness on

15 this matter. We seem to be diverted from the essence of her evidence at

16 the moment.

17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Doctor, you mentioned in your statement those two sites,

19 Belo Polje, municipality of Pec, and Malo Ribare village in Lipljan.

20 There everything was done in keeping with the rules of your profession,

21 science and the provisions of the Law on Criminal Procedure?

22 A. Absolutely. The investigating judge attend on both locations, as

23 should have been the case.

24 Q. And all your activities in Kosovo performed during the bombing and

25 combat operations were extremely risky. On a couple of occasions you were

Page 7049

1 exposed, you were under fire?

2 A. I was constantly under fire.

3 Q. So you suffered?

4 A. Lots.

5 Q. Do you know maybe -- [In English] I do apologise.

6 [Interpretation] Do you know perhaps that during the exhumation of

7 bodies in Izbica locality of which we have heard quite a great deal now

8 there were even some terrorist activities directed at the site but also in

9 the broader area of that location in a wide ring secured by the army of

10 Yugoslavia? There were combat operations there that made the exhumation

11 work considerably more difficult.

12 A. You can do without the "even," because it went on 24 hours a day.

13 There were no air-raid alarms like in Belgrade, because it went on

14 non-stop. You're under fire non-stop.

15 Q. And you know that in this whole area Izbica, Drenica there were

16 constant attacks while the exhumation was going on, while the army was

17 holding that ring around the broader area?

18 A. Well, I can suppose so.

19 Q. Just two more questions. Did you know that the General Staff of

20 the army of Yugoslavia in 2001 established the commission whose task was

21 to gather materials about the sanitization performed in Kosovo,

22 sanitization of the terrain performed in Kosovo?

23 A. I know that the General Staff did have a commission. I think its

24 name was Commission for Cooperation with the ICTY, and I had one interview

25 with them.

Page 7050

1 Q. Do you know, perhaps, or do you have any knowledge about the

2 report sent to that commission of the General Staff of the army of

3 Yugoslavia dated 15th May 2001, from the Institute for Forensic Pathology

4 and Medicine, and that includes your strictly confidential report, 300-3

5 dated 14th May 2001?

6 A. I don't remember the date or the year. If you mean the report

7 that I had to make to indicate all the locations where I worked in

8 Kosovo --

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Yes. It was supposed to be strictly confidential, and then my

11 name was published in a weekly with a wide circulation, thanks to Ivan

12 Markovic.

13 Q. We'll discuss it.

14 A. You mean who gave my name for publishing?

15 Q. Thank you, Ms. Tomasevic.

16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this

17 witness, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: No doubt we will be hearing more about this

19 commission set up by the General Staff of the army on what basis it was

20 and what work it did in due course.

21 Mr. Ivetic.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will be brief, I do have

23 just a couple questions for this witness.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Tomasevic.

Page 7051

1 A. [No interpretation].

2 Q. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I am of the attorneys for Mr. Lukic,

3 and as I indicated I have just a few questions for you.

4 Now, first of all, Dr. Tomasevic, during your career and the

5 over -- from what I've read you've performed over 700 forensic

6 post-mortem inspections. For each of those instances during your career,

7 am I correct that upon completion and submission of your report to the

8 judicial authorities that would enable the judicial authorities to

9 continue with their investigations and ask for any additional forensic

10 work to be done on the bodies? Is my understanding correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. And now if we can -- if we can focus just on Izbica,

13 the examination undertaken at Izbica. At paragraph 12 of your 2003

14 statement, you indicated for the other forensic autopsies that you took

15 part in at Staro Cikatovo that Dr. Strbac as an officer was the head of

16 the team, even though you clearly had more experience. Was this also the

17 case with Izbica, that he was the formal head of the -- of the team, even

18 though you were actually the person with the more experience in terms of

19 doing this type of forensic work?

20 A. Yes. Dr. Strbac actually had no experience. He's just a

21 pathologist, and that's a completely different speciality.

22 Q. Okay. And am I correct that as part of your course -- post-mortem

23 examinations of the bodies recovered from Izbica that you are unable to

24 determine the actual time of death for any of the bodies? And when I say

25 "you," I mean the examinations either conducted personally by you or the

Page 7052

1 examinations conducted by Dr. Strbac that you oversaw.

2 A. Correct. I have no -- no sufficient parameters to be able to say

3 anything of that kind.

4 Q. Sorry. I just have to slow down and wait for the translation to

5 come in on the English so we don't get ahead of the translators.

6 Based upon your knowledge and experience, Doctor, although you

7 could not determine the time of death, did the bodies that you examined

8 from Izbica show a similar state of decomposition or were some of the

9 bodies showing a more advanced state of decomposition than others?

10 A. They were all in the same state of decomposition; that is,

11 advanced putrefaction.

12 Q. And -- and based upon your knowledge and experience, am I accurate

13 to state that the -- with that state of decomposition it is almost

14 impossible to determine the time of death based upon just the type of

15 inspection that you carried out?

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't answer that. You've already answered that

17 question. That gives counsel the information he wants on the point.

18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

19 Q. Now, Doctor, you talked about some. Bodies having grave markers

20 that accompanied the body-bags that were apparently found at the

21 exhumation site. Do you recall that any of the bodies that you personally

22 dealt with had grave markers that also had insignia or markings for the

23 UCK on them?

24 A. What do you mean "had insignia"? You mean on the uniforms? They

25 had no tatoos. I don't understand.

Page 7053

1 JUDGE BONOMY: We've already had evidence that some of the bodies

2 were dressed in black KLA uniforms. Do you need more than that?

3 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I do, Your Honour. I'm not asking about

4 uniforms. I'm asking about the wooden grave markers themselves, and my

5 next question will make it obvious why I'm asking that. I can go ahead.

6 Q. Doctor, your report, P248, with respect to the forensic review of

7 these bodies, I have gone through the report, and I have found five bodies

8 that had wooden grave marks that accompanied the bodies that are reported

9 according to your report as having some writing on -- some marking on the

10 grave marker showing that the deceased individual was a member of the UCK,

11 that it had an UCK symbol on the actual grave marker.

12 Now, my question deals with whether you actually recall handling

13 any bodies that had these wooden grave markers that accompany the bodies

14 that also had the symbol UCK on the grave marker, and then we'll get to

15 the uniforms.

16 A. Yes. Yes. I remember that UCK was written on the tombstones.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... alert us to the fact that

18 this report is not complete, not official, and did have some errors in it.

19 That information being understood, I'd like to ask you specifically with

20 respect to the descriptions of what the -- the bodies were wearing in

21 terms of the clothing, are the descriptions of the clothing accurate so

22 that if -- for instance, for these five individuals that had UCK grave

23 stones, if the descriptions for these individuals show that they were

24 wearing civilian clothes, is that actually what you saw or is that one of

25 the errors that you had? That is to say, does the report accurately

Page 7054

1 reflect what the bodies were wearing in each instance?

2 A. Yes. My report does reflect it accurately. The bodies that had

3 grave markers marked UCK had uniforms, not civilian clothes on.

4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

5 questions.

6 Q. Thank you, Dr. Tomasevic, for your time and your testimony.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think you got the answer -- I think you

8 should read the answer, Mr. Ivetic, and tell me if in fact you understand

9 that to be what you anticipated.

10 MR. IVETIC: The translation came out a little differently. Let

11 me ask -- let me ask the question this way:

12 Q. Can -- Dr. Tomasevic, can we rely upon the descriptions of what

13 various bodies were wearing that are contained in your -- in your

14 protocols, your post-mortem protocols? That is to say, the descriptions

15 of what various bodies were wearing, is that part of your report at least

16 complete and accurate?

17 A. Yes. I did my best to describe the clothing precisely, and every

18 detail of the clothing can be clearly seen on the photographs attached to

19 the original report.

20 Q. And just for your information, Doctor, the reason I ask is because

21 the photographs are not attached to this copy of the report. So that's

22 why I needed to clarify that with you. So thank you.

23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think I'm finished with this witness.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 Mr. Visnjic, there is one question affecting you that arises from

Page 7055

1 the way in which the cross-examination was conducted. The witness said

2 various things about a Major-General Stankovic not supporting her, and in

3 light of that answer the deletion of paragraph 2 is a bit unrealistic.

4 Now, is there something --

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not understand

6 that in the context of paragraph 2. Lending support does not necessarily

7 have to do with paragraph 2. It could be one of the possible explanations

8 but not the only one. In my view it's not the right explanation, but I'm

9 not going into that now.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: The problem is that I'm about to ask a question

11 about paragraph 2 and I wanted your observations before I did so, and it

12 only the -- it arises outs of this cross-examination, but -- because I'm

13 about to seek clarification of that very point.

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] My comment would be that we had

15 agreed with the Prosecutor that paragraph 2 be deleted from the statement.

16 Now it's up to you to accept or not to accept that, but it has been our

17 agreement from the beginning to delete paragraph 2 as irrelevant to her

18 testimony, and I believe that regardless of what the witness has said,

19 paragraph 2 is not relevant. But maybe I would reserve the right to ask

20 the witness something then.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... with this

22 paragraph, I think.

23 Ms. Kravetz, do you have any comment to make?

24 MS. KRAVETZ: As Mr. Visnjic has indicated, he approached me

25 before court and we had agreed that, as he had requested, this paragraph

Page 7056

1 would be omitted, but I don't have any preference. So if Your Honour

2 wants to reinstate this paragraph and keep it in, we had only done it to

3 accommodate Mr. Visnjic.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: In view of the position taken by the Prosecution,

6 we will leave paragraph 2 of the statement out of account.

7 Ms. Kravetz, do you have any re-examination?

8 MS. KRAVETZ: No, Your Honour. I have no further questions for

9 this witness. Thank you.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I have a few questions relating to medical

12 jurisprudence.

13 I just want to ask, did you find rigor mortis on any of the bodies

14 present or not? Rigor mortis.

15 A. No. No.

16 JUDGE CHOWHAN: In this -- when would you think rigor mortis would

17 relax? Or when will it set in, when in a case in hand, I mean in the area

18 in hand and keeping in view that weather?

19 A. Your Honour, it is for an expert is to say; whereas, I appear here

20 only as witness. Therefore, I cannot respond to your question.

21 JUDGE CHOWHAN: You're not an expert on medical jurisprudence?

22 You have said that, that you're not a mere pathologist, you're much more.

23 You have a degree.

24 A. I am a forensic pathologist, an expert in the field, and that was

25 my role in the job done, where however my role here is as a witness, which

Page 7057

1 is different as an expert. I can respond to your question, provided I was

2 here in the capacity of an expert.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Doctor, the distinction you make between an expert

5 and someone who has actually carried out the work in a particular case is

6 one we recognise, but at the same time a person who has carried out work

7 on a particular case can use his or her expertise to draw conclusions

8 which may assist us. We're not in a position now to go back to the

9 situation where a further order might be made and an expert brought in to

10 provide additional information. We can only rely on you as the person

11 here with the maximum knowledge about this particular investigation. So

12 we would be grateful if you would do your best in the circumstances to

13 answer the questions that are put to you by Judge Chowhan.

14 If you feel that you are not in a position because you don't have

15 enough information to answer a question, please tell us that, but don't

16 rely in this instance on the legalistic distinction between what you were

17 doing and the work of an expert.

18 JUDGE CHOWHAN: When you conduct an autopsy, then you observe a

19 body. And when you observe a body, you write down a report, and that

20 report is called the inquest report, the inquest report. And you prepare

21 the inquest report to record your observations as you saw the body. This

22 is universal. And then you -- you then use the knife or wherever it is

23 required to cut the body for post-mortem examination, and then you see

24 what you found inside the body.

25 Now, please tell me, did you prepare the inquest report of these

Page 7058

1 corpses that you saw and recorded what you saw and also recorded the

2 condition of the body, putrefication, blueness, eating by the insects, how

3 much of the body was left, whether it was totally eaten up or only the

4 bones were left, or whether it had all the bones, whether it did not have

5 certain bones, whether there was ligature mark or whether there was no

6 ligature mark?

7 We find that this report of yours, whatever was brought here, is

8 destitute of that sufficient information --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I have to interrupt at this point. I don't

10 agree with Judge Chowhan on this, but -- so we need to consult briefly on

11 this again.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, while we may not agree on what questions are

14 entirely appropriate in the circumstances, Judge Chowhan does have

15 questions he wishes to ask and he will proceed now to ask you these

16 questions.

17 So far you've heard what he's asked. Are you able to comment on

18 that before he goes further?

19 A. Your Honours -- may I continue? You said that before I used the

20 scalpel, the knife to do the internal examination, it is specified in all

21 my reports that I conducted an external examination. I didn't go inside

22 the body. I didn't study the cavities.

23 An autopsy is one thing, and making an expert report is a

24 different thing by law in my country, otherwise, I would speculating. I

25 kindly ask you to take that into account. If the case is different in

Page 7059

1 your country, then I should have been proofed on that. I should have been

2 told that in your system there is no distinction between a witness and an

3 expert.

4 I can assist you, though, in saying -- or suggesting the

5 following, since you said you were short of time: I can tell you that

6 according to -- or pursuant a ruling on your part I can put that in

7 writing in a relatively short time. I can make an expert report, and I

8 can only reiterate that I cannot answer to questions which could be -- or

9 should be posed of an expert.

10 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you very much. This explanation does help.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm afraid it hasn't helped me. I'm now confused

12 about the situation. What is it you're saying, is something you cannot

13 deal with today?

14 A. Today or tomorrow I cannot address matters that would require an

15 expert. An expert needs to compile a report based on what he or she saw

16 and based on facts.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what -- how do you define an expert?

18 A. An expert, it is a forensic pathologist in this case, and once the

19 forensic pathologist receives an order from the investigative judge to

20 carry out the expertise, he has before him a -- a report compiled by

21 either that expert or another expert. He also says -- has the complete

22 set of documentation that was in the possession of the investigative judge

23 containing the information on the event, the Official Note on the

24 crime-scene investigation conducted together with a sketch of the scene,

25 the photographs, the report from the investigation as well as various

Page 7060

1 witness statements or any statement of possible defendant and data on the

2 deceased.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: You're not being asked to reach conclusions based

4 on that sort of material. You're being asked very limited questions about

5 your own observations, not about anything else, and I find it difficult to

6 see what difference it would make if you had more time to deal with this.

7 If all that the Bench wish is further information about your

8 findings, why can you not give us that information?

9 A. I've explained already, I believe.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, all you've said is that if someone in Serbia

11 wrote out an order asking you to do a further report on the information

12 you've already gathered, then you could do that as an expert. Or have I

13 misunderstood that?

14 A. Once I received an order for autopsy, I do that. When I receive

15 an order for expertise, I do the other one. These are two completely

16 different matters.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: But as I understand it, they may both be based on

18 exactly the same information.

19 A. When carrying out an autopsy, all you have is the body, no other

20 data.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And we're only asking for information based on your

22 observation of the body, that's all.

23 A. All of that is contained in the conclusions. Based on the autopsy

24 performed, I concluded that the putrefaction was advanced and that the

25 time and cause of death cannot be established, whereas in the course of

Page 7061

1 expertise I could have stipulated the possible causes of death.

2 In item 2, I stated that the wounds in various parts of the body

3 were most likely caused by fire-arm projectiles. Based on the parameters,

4 I could see characteristics of the wounds, the existence of trajectory

5 canals and so on and so forth.

6 Once the autopsy had been carried out, I may mention the cause of

7 death in the course of expertise, but as far as the autopsy goes, it

8 contains what I had already mentioned. If the investigative judge is

9 interested in obtaining more data, he needs to forward a request for

10 expertise.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: We have taken some time to consider whether we have

13 adequate information from you on the basis of which you are prepared to

14 give your evidence and we're now satisfied that we do, and therefore on

15 the questions that were concerning Judge Chowhan, we do not require to ask

16 any further questions.

17 Judge Nosworthy wishes to deal with two quite separate matters.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much, Judge.

19 With your permission, I really, Dr. Tomasevic, have just one

20 question for you. On your statement of the 5th of March, at paragraph 54,

21 you spoke about travel to Kosovska Mitrovica daily from Pristina through

22 Vucitrn - please forgive my pronunciation - which was a Siptar Kosovo

23 Albanian stronghold and dangerous to drive through. And you further

24 said: "One day we were driving in a convoy when we were stopped and

25 advised that communications from NATO planes had just been intercepted,

Page 7062

1 and they believe that our convoy was about to be targeted."

2 What I want to discover from you is who was it who told you that

3 and gave you that information?

4 A. When we were approaching that area, there were soldiers and

5 officers around. The convoy consisted of four vehicles. I remember that

6 ours was a red Mercedes. They stopped us, and they said that thanks to

7 our pilots, who knew the English language and who overheard NATO pilots,

8 they learned that our convoy was about to be bombed. The area was

9 otherwise empty. It was a clearing. Our four cars were very visible, and

10 we would have been an easy target. So we left the vehicles and hid under

11 some trees for about two hours until the danger was gone. And on that

12 day --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last thing

14 she said. Somebody was hurt, but the interpreter didn't hear.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: The very last part of your answer was not picked up

16 by the interpreter. You said you left the vehicles, hid under some trees

17 for about two hours until the danger was gone, and you went on to say

18 something else. It started, "And on that day."

19 A. And later that day we found out that on the same day Daniel Shifer

20 was injured.

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And just to be precise, soldiers of -- I'm

22 sorry. My microphone wasn't active.

23 Just to be precise, soldiers of which particular army?

24 A. Our army.


Page 7063

1 A. I mean our army, the army, the troops that were in Kosovo. That

2 was the only army, our army.

3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And when you say "officers," what do you mean?

4 A. Well, military officers. All of them were officers. I don't know

5 what our contract soldiers as opposed to others and I'm a medical doctor,

6 I don't know anything about ranks. All these people were in military

7 uniforms.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: No further questions. Thank you, Judge.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 Doctor, who is Daniel Shifer?

11 A. Well, I don't know exactly what position he held, but he spent

12 some time in our country. A Frenchman that held some position in Kosovo.

13 He was widely known, but I really can't recall now what his title was.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, thank you very much. That completes your

15 evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now

16 free to leave. Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE BONOMY: We will break now and we will resume a bit earlier

20 than would otherwise have been the case. We resume at five past 6.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Dragulev.

24 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honour, the next witness is K81. And the

25 witness's evidence pertains to paragraphs 72 and 77 of the indictment. We

Page 7064

1 are calling him pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

2 [The witness enters court]


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: And the time you're likely to occupy in examining

6 him?

7 MS. DRAGULEV: I don't think I'll be more than 20 minutes.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 Good afternoon, sir. You are known to us as K81. You realise

10 that, I hope. So when we do not use your name, we do not mean any

11 discourtesy to you. Would you please make the solemn declaration to speak

12 the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed before

13 you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

17 So the Trial Chamber Judges already have your statement so we have

18 a considerable amount of information already. You're here so that counsel

19 for the various parties can ask some questions, to clarify points in the

20 statement, perhaps add to them, and in some instances perhaps to challenge

21 what you've said. The important thing is to concentrate on the particular

22 question that's asked of you and try to confine the answer you give to the

23 particular point that is raised in the question.

24 The first counsel to ask questions will be for the Prosecution,

25 and that is Ms. Dragulev.

Page 7065

1 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 I would ask the usher to deliver to the witness what will be

3 marked Exhibit P2485, the identification sheet. Thank you.

4 Examination by Ms. Dragulev:

5 Q. Mr. K81, can you please review the document that was placed in

6 front of you and confirm that it correctly reflects your name, your date

7 of birth, and your place of birth, without reading them out loud? Please

8 just answer verbally with yes or no. Does it reflect your name, your

9 place of birth, and your date of birth?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honours, we would like to tender Exhibit P2485

12 under seal.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: That will be done. Thank you.

14 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. K81, did you provide a statement to the Office of the

16 Prosecutor on the 30th of March, 1999?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you make some corrections to the statement on the 1st of

19 February, 2002?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During our proofing session, did you have a chance to review those

22 statements?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you make some corrections or -- or clarifications and discover

25 some translation errors in your statements during the proofing session?

Page 7066

1 A. Yes. There were some minor mistakes.

2 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honour, I would quickly like to go through

3 these corrections with the witness and would ask the usher to deliver to

4 the witness an Albanian translation of his statement. It contains

5 numbered paragraphs. Thank you.

6 Q. Mr. K81, you made a correction to page 1, paragraph 4 of your

7 statement. The last sentence of that paragraph reads: "I think there

8 were about 80 buses that brought them in."

9 What correction did you make to that paragraph, to that sentence?

10 A. When I gave the statement, I said 8 to 10 buses, not 80 buses.

11 This was the correction I made.

12 Q. Thank you. And the next correction was to paragraph 5 of the

13 statement, the next paragraph. You made a correction to the

14 sentence: "They were un-kept." You said that you did not remember saying

15 that. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct. I don't remember saying that.

17 Q. On page 2, paragraph 11 of the statement, we discovered a

18 discrepancy between the English version and the Albanian version of the

19 statement. The third sentence of paragraph 11 reads: "We could see them

20 from where we were in the mountains." Whereas the Albanian version

21 states: "We could see the houses from where we were in the mountains."

22 Which version is correct, the Albanian one or the English one?

23 A. The Albanian version is correct where it says that we could see

24 them looting the houses.

25 Q. That would be the English version that refers to them, "we could

Page 7067

1 see them from where we were in the mountains."

2 A. [No interpretation].

3 Q. Thank you. And in the same paragraph you also made a

4 clarification. You said that you could only see them, the people, or the

5 villagers, through binoculars from where you were in the mountains. By

6 using binoculars; is that correct?

7 A. Yes. This is correct.

8 Q. Thank you. And in the same paragraph, in paragraph 11, in the

9 Albanian version of your statement one the names that is mentioned there

10 is spelled as Mehmeti, M-e-h-m-e-t-i. Is that the correct name?

11 A. No. That's not the correct name. It should be Mahmuti.

12 Q. Could you spell that, please.

13 A. Yes. M-a-h-m-u-t-i.

14 Q. Thank you. You then made a correction to the last sentence or in

15 fact the last word of paragraph 15 to the part that reads: "Valbona is in

16 the USA."

17 What was the correction you made to the sentence? Where was

18 Valbona at the time you gave the statement?

19 A. She was in France. That is the truth.

20 Q. Paragraph 22 there is a reference to Fazli. You corrected

21 that --

22 MS. DRAGULEV: Apologies, Your Honour. There was a reference to

23 the name Fazli Rustemi.

24 Q. And you corrected that name to Fazli Ukshini; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's correct. It's Fazli Ukshini.

Page 7068

1 Q. Do you spell Ukshini, please.

2 A. U-k-s-h-i-n-i.

3 Q. And I believe the last direction was to paragraph 23 was rather

4 translation error. The English version of your statement in the third

5 sentence it refers to 10.00 p.m., the time reference is 10.00 p.m.,

6 whereas the Albanian version refers to 8.00 p.m., 2000. Which time

7 reference is correct?

8 A. 10.00 is correct.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, taking those corrections --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you do that, I need to be guided to some of

11 these to complete this. I don't have a statement with numbered

12 paragraphs.

13 Valbona is referred to where?

14 MS. DRAGULEV: That's in -- in the English statement on page 2,

15 and it's the third paragraph from the bottom, the very last word.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Then --

17 MS. DRAGULEV: The name Fazli Rustemi appears on page 3.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a second. I've lost my notes now. This is so

19 confusing. One of these days you'll do this before the statement is

20 finalised for the Court.

21 The reference to Mahmuti, where is that?

22 MS. DRAGULEV: The reference to Mahmuti is on page 2, paragraph --

23 the third paragraph from the top. That's only in the Albanian version so

24 it's correct in the English version.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: The reference to Fazli.

Page 7069

1 MS. DRAGULEV: Is on page 3, the fourth paragraph from the bottom.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's correctly spelt.

3 And the 10.00 p.m. reference is in the next paragraph, is it?

4 MS. DRAGULEV: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's where the change is to the village name

6 also; is that right?

7 MS. DRAGULEV: That's in the second statement. Yeah, that's

8 correct.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

10 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. K81, taking those corrections into account, are the statements

12 true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and recollection?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And can you confirm to this Court that that evidence is what you

15 would give under oath today if you were asked the same questions?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honours, I would like to tender Exhibit P2268

18 under seal. The exhibit contains the witness's statement dated May 30,

19 1999, and the corrections to the statement dated February 1st, 2002.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it that a redacted version will be available

21 almost instantly for publication.

22 MS. DRAGULEV: Yes, Your Honour, we can make one available.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think it's your duty to make one available

24 simply by deleting the name. Meanwhile, it will be admitted under seal.

25 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you. Can I please have Exhibit P36 up on the

Page 7070

1 screen. Can you zoom in a little bit. Thank you.

2 Q. Mr. K81, do you recognise the villages Zegra, Vladovo and Vlastica

3 on this map? And --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- with the help of the usher could you please make a line on the

6 map to mark where you were hiding? Please show us the location of the

7 mountains that you refer to in your statement.

8 A. The mountains were around Llashtice and Zhegra villages.

9 Q. Can you please mark the map. Oh, you did. Thank you. Thanks

10 very much.

11 MS. DRAGULEV: Could I have an IC number for this, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC 111, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you. Can I now please have Exhibit P1785 up

15 on the screen. This exhibit is already in evidence. Please go to page 2

16 of the exhibit.

17 Q. While we're waiting for that to come up, Mr. K81, in your

18 statement you described that you saw VJ soldiers who were looting and

19 burning the village of Llashtice, and that you saw them burn the mosque in

20 that village.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you --

23 MS. DRAGULEV: Can you go to page 2 of that exhibit, please. The

24 English one, if possible, because that's a colour copy. Thank you.

25 Q. Mr. K81, do you recognise the mosque on this photograph?

Page 7071

1 A. Yes. This is the mosque in Llashtice village. It is this mosque

2 that I saw being burnt.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you.

4 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honours, I have no further questions at this

5 point. Thank you.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 Witness, you have a copy of your statement there, do you?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you look at the seventh paragraph.

10 I take it the numbers are the same in Albanian and in English,

11 Ms. Dragulev, right?

12 MS. DRAGULEV: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: That paragraph in English reads: "In a nearby

14 village named Zegra, I heard that a man's house was shot up."

15 Who did you hear that from?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard this from the villagers who

17 were there nearby. This was an incident that occurred in that village.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: When did this happen?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened during the days when

20 the army came and took positions in Zhegra village. This is when his

21 house was attacked and when this old man together with his wife were

22 killed.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you confirm when the -- the forces first

24 arrived in Zhegra?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The forces arrived around 25th of

Page 7072

1 March, but they kept coming. I think it was on the 29th when additional

2 forces came to the village. I do not remember, though, the exact dates.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, you then in the next paragraph again talk

4 about hearing what the army or civilians did, and in the paragraph after

5 that you say that they also went to the home of the local president of the

6 LDK. Who did you hear these things from? Was it the villagers you've

7 mentioned, or was it from someone in particular?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard it from the villagers. As

9 large forces came there, we wanted to know what was going on. They

10 started to attack the activists of the LDK, and we were scared.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: That answers the question. Thank you.

12 And just one final question. If you go to the end of the

13 statement and count back the sixth last paragraph says: "We left that

14 village and went to the village of Zub. We wanted to get some food. Just

15 as we sat down, the host of the house we were in said, The VJ was there,

16 stand up."

17 Is that what was said?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what he said. The VJ

19 was nearby. We wanted to look for food, and we were told that the army

20 was nearby and that's why we had to leave and go somewhere else.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: So when he said, "Stand up," what did he mean by

22 that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wanted to tell it us that the

24 army was nearby and it was possible that they could catch us inside there

25 and that that's why we had to leave.

Page 7073

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 Mr. Zecevic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: We will follow the indictment order again, Your

4 Honour, for this witness.


6 MR. ZECEVIC: And the Milutinovic Defence has no questions.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions. Thank you.

9 MR. VISNJIC: No questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic.

11 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have just

12 a few questions for this witness.

13 May I ask the Registrar to place in e-court a Prosecution exhibit,

14 namely 615, page 24. And can we zoom in on the right upper corner that

15 refers to the town of Gnjilane, that shows Gnjilane and -- sorry. I think

16 we have to show the next page, because that's where the border lies.

17 Page 25, please. So now it's the left upper corner. Can we zoom in on

18 that.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. K81, you saw a moment ago a different map but

21 this one is a relief map, so it could be of more assistance. Do you

22 recognise Zegra, Llashtice and Vladovo here? You mentioned them?

23 A. Yes, I can.

24 Q. Can you draw the area where you were, where the Crna Planina,

25 Black Mountain, is?

Page 7074

1 A. This is the part where we were.

2 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Could we give this exhibit an IC

3 number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC 112, Your Honours.

5 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. In your statement, in paragraph 12 you said that the area where

7 you were was three to four kilometres away from your village and that it

8 is called Crna Planina. You said you had a pair of binoculars and that

9 you could see what was happening in the environs from the position where

10 you were.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. In your statement, in several paragraphs you describe

13 the soldiers of the army of Yugoslavia, and you said that you could tell

14 them apart since they wore dark green uniforms. Was it only because of

15 that that you described them as VJ soldiers?

16 A. I could recognise the soldiers very well because I was there, and

17 I could see them while they were in the village as well as while they were

18 arriving in the village. And I also knew the uniforms they wore, so

19 that's why I could recognise them.

20 Q. Except for the uniforms you didn't see any insignia, did you?

21 A. No, I didn't see any insignia. I only saw their uniforms. They

22 were armed.

23 Q. I agree with you that you were able to see them while you were in

24 your village, but it is your statement where we find that you were some

25 three to four kilometres away from your village and some two to two and a

Page 7075

1 half kilometres away from the other places, and that you could tell them

2 apart by using your binoculars. That's what my question referred to.

3 From that distance of over two kilometres, all you could see was

4 their uniform, and based on that you concluded they were members of

5 the VJ. Am I correct?

6 A. As the crow flies, it was less than three or four kilometres. The

7 road we used was longer. I would go as close as possible to see what was

8 going on in the villages around that area.

9 Q. Can you tell me what was the shortest distance at which you were

10 when you observed what was going on through the binoculars?

11 A. Approximately 700, 800 metres. One kilometre at the most, not

12 further than that. The mountains were there, and that was the closest I

13 could get to see them.

14 Q. Yes. But in your statement, you do not mention that you

15 approached as close as that. In any case, tell me, please, whether you

16 had the binoculars all the time and used it repeatedly.

17 A. Yes, I had them with me all the time, and I used them because

18 there was nothing else I could do. And I wanted to see what was happening

19 for self-defence, fearing that they might enter our houses, and we were

20 afraid they might come up to the place where we were hiding.

21 Q. It is your testimony, therefore, that from the distance of 7 to

22 800 metres by using the binoculars you could clearly see what was going on

23 to the extent described in your statement. Is that so?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. Thank you. I have a few more questions for you. In paragraph 20,

Page 7076

1 you say that you went to Presevo. Can you tell me whether you encountered

2 any problems on the way, that is when you crossed from the territory of

3 Kosovo over to Serbia proper, since you mention in your statement that

4 Presevo is in Serbia proper and that it is an Albanian town?

5 A. We had problems only in Zub village where the army shot at us, but

6 then we didn't see any more army until we arrived in Presheve.

7 Q. I know. I asked you -- my question refers only to your trip as

8 far as Presevo. Therefore, I believe you've answered it.

9 I don't think I have any further questions. Thank you.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 Mr. Bakrac.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. K81, my name is Mihajlo Bakrac,

15 attorney-at-law, counsel for General Lazarevic. I wanted to begin my

16 cross-examination with what you stated at page 91, in line 3 and 4 of the

17 transcript.

18 When my colleague Mr. Aleksic asked you whether you had the

19 binoculars all the time, you said yes. You said you wanted to use it for

20 self-defence. Mr. K81, does that mean that you carried a weapon?

21 A. No, we didn't have weapons, but we observed what was happening in

22 our village, what the army was doing, and the surrounding villages. None

23 of us was armed, and that was why I kept the binoculars, only to see what

24 was going on.

25 Q. But you said that you used the binoculars for self-defence. What

Page 7077

1 did you intend to defend with if you had no weapons?

2 A. A binocular is not a weapon. It can only helps you see what the

3 army in this case was doing in my village, in Vlladovc, or in the

4 surrounding villages. There is no way I could defend myself with a

5 binocular, of course.

6 Q. I'm not saying you could use it for defence. I'm just quoting

7 your words. You said you used the binoculars to organise your defence,

8 which to me sounds like you were armed. Is that correct?

9 A. No. No, I was not armed, but I just saw what was happening

10 because they drove us out of our homes. That was why I was observing what

11 was happening, fearing that they might come up to the mountain where we

12 were hiding. So that was the only reason I kept the binoculars and used

13 them all the time.

14 Q. When you say you kept the binoculars, what are you trying to tell

15 us? Whose binoculars? How did you come to possess it?

16 A. The binocular was mine, and I had them since a long time ago.

17 They didn't belong to anyone else.

18 Q. Mr. K81, you stated that you did not serve your military term.

19 Why is that?

20 A. Because at that time I was still very young, and I was not invited

21 to join it.

22 Q. Mr. K81, at the time of the war you were 24 or 25. People are

23 being called to serve as early as 18.

24 A. But I was never summoned.

25 Q. Did you receive a draft call from the KLA headquarters, perhaps,

Page 7078

1 to join them?

2 A. No, never.

3 Q. Did they ask any vehicles from you or some other type of

4 assistance for the KLA?

5 A. No, they didn't ask me for any vehicles, for anything for that

6 matter.

7 Q. But you knew the KLA people from your area, didn't you?

8 A. In my area I didn't know anyone, and as far as I know, there were

9 no KLA members.

10 Q. Do you know Imeri Alisa from your village of Vladovo?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How about Alija Ahmet from -- from Gnjilane?

13 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honour, I believe the witness indicated that

14 the translation was not working. It seems to be working now.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Do you know Alija Ahmet from Gornja Livoca [phoen]?

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the answer.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you give that answer again, please. The

20 interpreter didn't hear it.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know Ahmet Aliu from

22 Livoc e Eperm [phoen].

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Since you said I knew Imeri Alisa, did you know that he was a

25 member of the KLA and his pseudonym was Ili?

Page 7079

1 A. No, I never knew that.

2 Q. Was he hiding in the mountains with you, the mountains you

3 mentioned in your statement? Was he one of the group hiding in the

4 mountains?

5 A. No, he was not one of us.

6 Q. Very well. How many were there, and were all of you male?

7 A. In the mountain, there were women, children, elderly people, young

8 people, males. All the people who were in the village, they all took to

9 the mountains, all of them.

10 Q. Except for your family, and your family went to the village of

11 Vlastica; is that correct?

12 A. My family, Llashtice village were in that area, in a mountainous

13 area. There were no KLA members. There were only ordinary villagers

14 unarmed who were driven out of the place by the Yugoslav forces. They

15 were driven out of their homes.

16 Q. Mr. K81, you stated that the Yugoslav forces were quartered in the

17 battery factory. Where is that factory? Is it in your village or some

18 other village?

19 A. No. The battery village is at the entrance to the Zhegra village.

20 One kilometre or so from Vlladovc village. That was where they were

21 stationed. And after that, they started to maltreat people.

22 Q. When you say they were stationed there, what do you mean? Who do

23 you mean?

24 A. Yugoslav army.

25 Q. Did you personally go to the factory? Did you see the forces

Page 7080

1 quartered there?

2 A. When the army started to come, the Serbian army, I was in Zhegra.

3 I saw them taking opposition. But when they were stationed and started

4 maltreating people, we didn't dare go up to them.

5 Q. Mr. K81, in your statement, at page 5 you stated, and I will not

6 mention her name, in any case, you state there that your sister provided a

7 statement to the OTP investigators. Is that correct as well?

8 I do not receive interpretation. I'm not receiving it.

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. If need be, we can put this up on e-court, but did you know that

11 your sister stated to the OTP investigators that between Vladovo and Zegra

12 there is a battery factory owned by the state? On that Friday,

13 paramilitary members took over the factory and used it as their base. Did

14 you know that she stated that, claiming that paramilitary forces were at

15 the factory?

16 And the statement was given under the pseudonym K8, for my learned

17 friends from the Prosecution.

18 A. I don't know exactly what my sister had stated, but the fact is

19 that that was a battery factory and that is where the Serbian army was

20 operating. But there were also Serbian villagers who accompanied them,

21 and they were under the command of the Yugoslav army.

22 Q. How do you know they were under the command of the Serbian army?

23 First of all, you didn't see them there. This is what you said a moment

24 ago. So where did you get that information that they were under the

25 command of the Serbian army? You haven't stated any such thing up until

Page 7081

1 now.

2 A. I saw the army with my eyes, but everything was done under the

3 army's orders.

4 Q. The fact that you saw the army there with your own eyes is a

5 different story. How do you know that everything was done under army

6 orders? Did you see any order of that nature? Where do you get that

7 information from?

8 A. I saw it with my own eyes. When I was going to Zhegra, before I

9 went back I saw the army with the Serbian civilians, and I saw that they

10 were cooperating with one another. And when the army attacked the

11 Vlladovc village, it was the army who did everything. That was in the

12 front line.

13 In Llashtice, too, I saw them when they entered the village.

14 There were soldiers and civilians, but they were under the control of the

15 army, under the command of the army.

16 Q. You saw them enter the village, but you didn't see them do

17 anything else. Isn't that correct?

18 A. I saw them setting the houses on fire, the mosque. I saw them

19 looting and raiding.

20 Q. And you were in the village of Vlastica and you saw it all, or did

21 you see it from the mountain, from the distance of some three to four

22 kilometres?

23 A. I stayed in the mountain near Llashtice, but Zhegra village and

24 Llashtice village are situated around that place where I was hiding. So

25 when I wanted to see what was going on in Zhegra village, I went to that

Page 7082

1 side of the mountain overlooking Zhegra and so on. I moved from one place

2 to another and observed the developments.

3 Q. In your statement at page 2, did you not say the following, and

4 this was in May 1999 when your recollection was far better: "The VJ

5 soldiers behaved like proper soldiers. They minded their own business and

6 behaved properly."

7 Isn't that a part of your statement? Page 2.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is paragraph 4.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what I have stated, and

10 this is how it was. But until they were stationed, after that they

11 immediately started the maltreatment, and I have explained everything in

12 my statement. After that, the incidents started, the maltreatment of the

13 population that was there.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Everything you could see you could see from up there in the

16 mountains; isn't that correct?

17 A. Most of it, yes.

18 Q. And from that location as you confirmed to my learned friend, you

19 couldn't notice or make out any insignia or patches worn by the soldiers

20 in the village?

21 A. What insignia or patches do you mean?

22 Q. Uniform, the uniform patches.

23 A. No, I couldn't see them. I saw only the army. I could see the

24 army and the police, but I couldn't discern the insignia. Had I paid

25 greater attention maybe I would have seen, but I didn't.

Page 7083

1 Q. Is it correct that the members of the paramilitary forces also

2 wore uniforms?

3 A. I couldn't distinguish the paramilitary forces, but I saw people

4 partly dressed in uniform operating in -- in unison with the Yugoslav

5 army.

6 Q. I will read out a part of your sister's statement: "Some wore

7 olive-drab military uniforms and some had olive-drab T-shirts. 10

8 soldiers had painted their faces. Most of them had insignia I'd never

9 seen before. They were the shape of a lion, although I cannot say that

10 with certainty. It was no regular insignia of the VJ. Everyone around me

11 kept saying that these were Arkan's Tigers."

12 Did you know that your sister provided that description?

13 A. I told you earlier, and I am repeating it, I do not know what my

14 sister said. At that time, she was here and she gave her own statement.

15 She spoke about what she saw from Llashtice. She passed to Pashen

16 [phoen], Gudrik [phoen], Partesh [phoen], Gllogovc, and she could see what

17 was happening in these Serb-inhabited villages. So I don't know what she

18 said.

19 Q. But she was not up at the mountain. She didn't have the

20 binoculars. She was there.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: This is no way to cross-examine this witness with

22 reference to another person's statement. You can lead that evidence in

23 due course if you wish. You've asked him enough questions about this.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to ask the

25 witness this:

Page 7084

1 Q. Do you know --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the name.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Qamil Shabani.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you spoke of the events that the -- that His Honour asked you

7 about when you heard that in the village of Zegra soldiers came to a house

8 of an LDK activist and that he was not at home at that moment and that his

9 name was Nehat, did you hear all that from Qamil Shabani or from someone

10 else?

11 A. No. I heard it from someone else when the Serbian army went to

12 search for him as an activist of the democratic league of a party that was

13 in Kosova. Nehat was not at home, so they killed his father, the uncle,

14 and the uncle's wife.

15 Q. And you stated here that you heard the soldiers had done that.

16 Mr. Shabani provided his own statement to this Tribunal, and as regards

17 the same event, he said that paramilitary members in Zegra --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, this is not the way to cross-examine a

19 witness on what he has said in his statement. If you have a point to put

20 to him, put it, but this lengthy reading of the statement of another

21 person is not the appropriate way to do this. If there's a particular

22 point you want to make, please do so.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have that witness's

24 statement, and I can also check against the transcript.

25 I have passed 7.00. I will not have any further questions, but I

Page 7085

1 can only provide you with some explanation as to this witness's statement

2 at a later stage.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you can lead that witness in due course or

4 produce the statement if we agree to accept it when it comes to the

5 Defence case, but if you have a particular point to put to this witness

6 that is the case and get his comment on it, please put it, but don't read

7 out the statement of another witness. We trust you to have a basis for

8 your question. Just get to the point of the question.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I've

10 received his answers as regards his sister's statement.

11 Q. What if I told you that there is a witness from Zegra who says

12 that he or she was in Zegra at the time and that the paramilitaries were

13 responsible for the incident?

14 A. My answer is this, and I told you earlier what the other witnesses

15 have told you I don't know. I'm here to tell you what I personally know.

16 In Zhegra and in the surrounding villages there was the Yugoslav

17 army operating. All of them were in uniforms, but they were aided also by

18 the Serb villagers of these villages. I don't know what the other person

19 has said.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, the height of his evidence in any event

21 is that he heard from villagers that either the army or civilians went to

22 the home of the -- of Nehat. Now, he's not saying it was the army, as I

23 understand it.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The interpretation we received, or

25 the translation, was the army and civilians. Let me check that.

Page 7086

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the English --

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Excuse me. You are right. Not "and

3 civilians," but "or civilians." I apologise to the Court.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: So there isn't a point to be pursued here.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I have no

6 questions.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, do you have questions?

8 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour, we don't.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Any re-examination, Ms. Dragulev?

10 MS. DRAGULEV: Just one quick question, Your Honour.


12 Re-examination by Ms. Dragulev:

13 Q. In paragraph 5 of your statement on page 1, you stated that the

14 men in civilian clothes that you were told were Arkan's Tigers stayed with

15 the VJ soldiers, did you see that for yourself? Did you see that or did

16 you hear that?

17 A. When the vehicles of the Serbian army came, I heard from some

18 villagers who were older than me, they told me that these were

19 Arkan's Tigers or soldiers.

20 Q. And did you see these people stay with VJ soldiers?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

24 questions.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: K81, that brings your evidence to a conclusion.

Page 7087

1 Thank you very much for coming to the Tribunal to give it and to add to

2 the statement you already gave. You are now free to leave.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic -- sorry, Mr. Aleksic.

6 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We're

7 running late, but I just wanted to draw your attention to the following:

8 After expert Brunborg, we have Zlatomir Pesic. We have just received a

9 statement of the 29th of June, 2005, on four pages he gave to the interim

10 administration of the UN in Kosovo, and supplemental information on two

11 pages with 20 paragraphs.

12 If he is to begin testifying tomorrow, according to the schedule,

13 I believe this will pose problems for us. I need to discuss this with

14 Mr. Ackerman. Nonetheless, I believe he would support my statement, my

15 application.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: You perhaps ought to speak directly to the

17 Prosecution about it to see if in fact there is a way of accommodating any

18 difficulty you may have by rearranging other witnesses' evidence. We note

19 that this fits in neatly at the moment with Prosecution plans to call

20 Brunborg as the first witness on Wednesday, tomorrow at 2.15.

21 So we now adjourn until 2.15 tomorrow.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.09 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day

24 of November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.