1 Wednesday, 14 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: One matter to be dealt with outstanding from
6 yesterday was the request by Mr. Fila and Mr. Petrovic to exclude part of
7 the evidence of Dr. Rugova. The Chamber has considered this further and
8 is of the view that this comes too late, it should have been dealt with at
9 the time, but that in any event on the face of it it is an unsound
10 application and therefore we refuse it.
11 Can we now have the witness, please.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Dorovic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: A number of problems arose in yesterday's evidence,
16 and I have been giving some thought to how to deal with the situation to
17 try to avoid a repetition of some of the problems we had yesterday. So
18 I'm making a point at the outset of the evidence today of saying what I've
19 said I think quite a number of times already. It's important that you
20 focus on the particular point raised. We all recognise that you feel very
21 strongly about certain things and you feel the need to ensure that we are
22 absolutely fully informed. But please believe me that we have a
23 considerable amount of material which we've already read from -- produced
24 by you, and it is vital to concentrate on the particular points that
25 counsel are raising. And if we feel we're not getting enough, we will ask
1 questions ourselves.
2 So I ask you to be patient with us and try to concentrate on the
4 Similarly, I direct these words to counsel. Please try to focus
5 the questions specifically and try, so far as possible, to avoid narrating
6 paragraphs of material, after which it's sometimes very difficult to
7 follow the question. In most cases yesterday, I think it would have been
8 possible to ask a question without reference to the various paragraphs
9 which were referred to. I appreciate that that happens in a limited
10 number of questions, but when it does happen it tends to cloud, rather
11 than clear, the issue that's before the Trial Chamber. And since I expect
12 much of the proceedings this morning to be conducted in B/C/S, then please
13 bear in mind the need to pause - and this applies to both counsel and
14 witness - pause between question and answer so that you give the
15 interpreters, who do a very difficult job here extremely well, but have --
16 naturally have limitations because of the difficulty of the job. Give
17 them time to catch up.
18 Mr. Aleksic.
19 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have read
20 the transcript and my notes carefully, and regardless of what you have
21 just said, I have finished my cross-examination. I would like to thank
22 you and I would like to thank Mr. Dorovic. I have no further questions
23 for this witness.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: This is not a criticism. I hope you will take it
25 in the right spirit, but life is full of surprises.
1 Mr. Cepic.
2 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 WITNESS: LAKIC DOROVIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dorovic, good morning.
7 A. Good morning, Mr. Cepic.
8 Q. I am Djuro Cepic, one of the Defence team members, and I am going
9 to have some questions for you.
10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up Exhibit 1309, P1309, in
11 B/C/S page 7, in the English version page 30, Article 64. Can I please
12 call that up on the screen. Can we focus on Article 64, please.
13 Page 7 in B/C/S, page 30 in English. Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Dorovic, on your chief on Monday conducted by Ms. Moeller you
15 stated that the platoon commander is responsible and if he finds the
16 perpetrator he has to arrest him. This was on page 11440 of the
17 transcript here in Article 64, the first paragraph, it says: "Every
18 officer holding the post of company commander or another equal or higher
19 post and an authorised official of the internal affairs organ or the
20 security organ of the Yugoslav Army forces and military police might
21 arrest a serviceman caught in the act of committing a crime being
22 prosecuted ex officio if there is the risk of his escaping or if that
23 person poses a risk to life or important property."
24 Can you see that, Mr. Dorovic? Paragraph 1 of Article 64, that
1 A. Yes, I can see it.
2 Q. My question to you is this, please listen carefully: Am I right
3 in saying that a company commander can arrest a person who has committed a
4 crime if the conditions of this sort are in place, but that customarily it
5 is the military security services that perform arrests because they're
6 educated and trained and equipped to perform arrests?
7 A. Yes, absolutely yes.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 A. This is exactly what I emphasised.
10 Q. Thank you very much.
11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can I please ask the registrar to put
12 Exhibit Number P2818 on the screen.
13 Q. Mr. Dorovic, before us on the screens there is information of the
14 work of the military judiciary. You have already commented upon this
15 information. You will agree with me, won't you, that this is not
16 information from the Pristina Corps originally but that this information
17 which is an -- a piece of information from the staff of the Supreme
18 Command of the sector for operational work and training, the command of
19 the Pristina Corps only forwarded it to somebody else. Isn't that
21 A. Yes, that is what it says in this document.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 A. But I don't know what is in the enclosure.
24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could I please ask the registrar to go
25 to the next page of this document.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is exactly what it says.
2 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You can see information from the 1st Army and from the 2nd Army;
4 in other words, this is not something that originates from the Pristina
5 Corps, this is something that the Pristina Corps forwarded to the General
7 A. On the stamp in the upper right-hand side corner I see "Belgrade,"
8 so that may well be the case. Can we see who signed it?
9 Q. Can you look at the contents? It says in the 1st Army.
10 A. I don't know who the information is from. I can't see it,
11 Mr. Cepic.
12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page on the
13 screen, please.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, just now, you've just said that this is
15 something the Pristina Corps forwarded to the General Staff. Did you mean
16 to say that?
17 MR. CEPIC: Opposite. Probably opposite, probably it is a problem
18 in translation, because this document issued by general --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I understood that the first time and I thought
20 this was the other way around, so I was just trying to correct it.
21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may be of
24 assistance, this document we are looking at now contains the same thing as
25 document P1918, which is already in the system, has been used through
1 witness Vasiljevic. Only the cover page of this document differs from the
2 cover page of the other one. In the document 1918 you can see who the
3 author of the document is, where it originated from.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.
5 Mr. Cepic.
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Dorovic, you have it now on your screen, don't you, the
8 signatory --
9 A. There's no signatory. It says here that it was compiled, and as
10 somebody who knows the system I am questioning the credibility of this
11 document, not its contents but the formal aspect thereof --
12 Q. Mr. Dorovic, just a moment. Let's not go into such tiny details.
13 Are you the author of this document?
14 A. No.
15 Q. This is what I'd like to hear. Can you read the first page.
16 A. This is what I'm saying --
17 Q. I am asking you questions --
18 A. And I am answering questions. I want to be precise.
19 Q. Mr. Dorovic, I am asking you very clear questions and I'm kindly
20 asking you to answer my questions clearly and up to the point and I am
21 grateful to you in advance to you for that.
22 On the first page it says: "This command received information
23 from the staff of the Supreme Command from the sector for operations and
24 education," under number so-and-so. I am asking you a very simple
25 question. This information which is enclosed to this document, is this
1 something that was issued by the staff of the Supreme Command?
2 A. I'm saying no.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 A. Please read it and you will see that it is not the case.
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 Mr. Dorovic, Pusto Selo, Senovac near Orahovac has been mentioned
7 a location. You have also mentioned this as one of the case files
9 A. I have never mentioned this, never mentioned the names of these
10 places. Let's be precise, Mr. Cepic. I was talking --
11 Q. Senovac near Orahovac --
12 A. I was talking about a mass grave in the vicinity of Orahovac
13 containing 47 bodies. This is a case file that I had in my hands and the
14 places that you mentioned -- the places that you mentioned --
15 Q. I will be very precise. The only mass grave that is mentioned
16 near Orahovac is this one in Senovac. So we can call it a mass grave near
18 A. If we're talking about what is being mentioned, I'm also aware of
19 some others around Orahovac --
20 Q. I'm asking you about this one --
21 A. I'm --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters will not be able to interpret
23 if the speakers overlap.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, there's too much overlapping here. Now,
25 I know you're not the principal offender at the moment, and I recognise
1 that, but the witness has to be controlled by you and we've had more than
2 a day of trying to learn how to do this.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that counsel is too fast with
4 his questions.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: And I'm just being told that you speak too quickly
6 and it's not clear.
7 THE INTERPRETER: He asks questions too quickly. It cannot be
8 interpreted in its entirety. Thank you.
9 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues]...
10 Q. [Interpretation] You have mentioned in these documents that you
11 inspected with regard to that mass grave near Orahovac that a large number
12 of documents were located, documents that were issued by the military
13 police, and my question is this:
14 Do you maybe know that the security organ of the command of the
15 Pristina Corps immediately, when they learned about a number of fresh
16 graves near Orahovac, sent its organs to check the information that had
17 been received in the media through some individuals or from some units and
18 to check the situation on the ground and see what had actually happened?
19 Are you aware of that? As you were expecting those documents, did you
20 learn of that, yes or no?
21 A. I found a number of official notes by the security organs, if I
22 remember it well, and one was signed by Nesic and I know that in
23 particular note very well, because I know the person --
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. So in other words, I'm aware of all that.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: That answer's not very clear to me.
3 Are you saying you were aware of a number of other mass graves
4 which had been investigated by the military security organ?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. In my answer I
6 just said this -- the question was whether I knew that among the documents
7 there were also official notes by the security organs. I said yes, and I
8 specified that I was particularly interested and I analysed a note that
9 was compiled by Nesic, the security organ, and there was some other
10 official notes among those as well.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: That wasn't the question, Mr. Dorovic. The
12 question was: Do you know that the security organ of the command of the
13 Pristina Corps sent units to check the situation on the ground and see
14 that this actually happened? Now, do you know that they looked for these
15 reported mass graves?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I am aware of only one grave,
17 and this is the only one I'm talking about. This is the first time I hear
18 that there might have been investigation into some others, that there were
19 others investigated.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: All right, Mr. Cepic.
21 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, if you allow me, I asked a specific
22 question about exactly that grave and he confirmed --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, I see, I see.
24 MR. CEPIC: -- and he confirmed in his answer --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I see. Sorry. Well, the question was that --
1 MR. CEPIC: He confirmed that he found -- I'm sorry if I interrupt
2 you. He confirmed in his statement in paragraph 35, he confirmed that he
3 found the files with the records of security staff of -- and he mentioned
4 the name of Nesic also.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: But if you look at your question again you say:
6 "Do you maybe know that the security organ in the command of the Pristina
7 Corps immediately, when they learned of a number of fresh graves near
8 Orahovac," now I got --
9 MR. CEPIC: No, no, it was a single, not a plural --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: The way it's come out in the translation I got
11 suggests there were a number of sites but you're saying that it was only
12 one site you were referring to and that his answer that he had read
13 documents in relation to it confirmed the position for you. Thank you
14 very much. That clears it up. Please move on.
15 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 [Interpretation] I would like to call up Exhibit Number 5D128.
17 Q. Mr. Dorovic, since the complete investigation was carried out by
18 the military organs and once it was established that the army had not been
19 involved in all that, the case continued to be processed by the district
20 public prosecutor's office in Prizren. Please look at the screen.
21 A. Yes, I can see it. The prosecutor is signed here.
22 Q. Do you agree with me?
23 A. I don't understand what you're asking me.
24 Q. In keeping with this document -- do you see the document before
25 you? Do you agree with me that the investigation was taken over by the
1 civilian prosecutor in Prizren?
2 A. This is what it says in the document.
3 Q. Yes, please look at the document, see what it says in the
4 document. Is this a document by which certain things are being handed
5 over to the prosecutor in order to carry out certain procedures? Will you
6 agree with me that the investigation was taken over by the civilian organs
7 in keeping with the document on the screen?
8 A. I don't know who from. It does not come clear from this document
9 that this was being taken over from somebody else.
10 Q. Are they involved in these proceedings?
11 A. This is something else.
12 Q. Please answer the question.
13 A. Your question is very inappropriate, incorrect, Mr. Cepic.
14 Q. Mr. Dorovic, what does the document in front of you mean? Can
15 you please explain. Nothing else. That's all.
16 A. Judging by the title, this is an order for the exhumation by the
17 district prosecutor's office. There's no word about any take-over.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 A. You're not precise.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 Now that we're on the subject of security organs, on Monday in
22 response to the question put by Judge Bonomy you said that the commander
23 of the security squad in the Pristina Corps was Nesic when you were there,
24 in the Pristina Corps. Yesterday, in your evidence yesterday on page 81
25 you said that Nesic was in actual fact the security organ in the Pristina
1 Military District. What is correct?
2 A. I never said any such thing. What is correct is that Nesic
3 introduced himself to me invariably as the security organ after Vujisic
4 was expelled.
5 Q. Where?
6 A. The command of the Pristina Corps.
7 Q. Just a second. Pristina Corps command.
8 A. Yes, corps command, yes.
9 Q. Let us clarify that first.
10 A. And I never said anything else.
11 Q. But yesterday you said on page 81 in line 24 that Nesic was
12 actually the security organ in the military district --
13 A. Never, never.
14 Q. All right. Thank you. Have you heard the name of Momir
15 Stojanovic, who at the time when Mr. Boris Tadic was minister of defence,
16 was the chief of security of the Army of Yugoslavia?
17 A. Yes, of course. The chief of the entire service of security, if
18 I -- if I have the same person in mind. I know some other people by the
19 name of Momir Stojanovic.
20 Q. I'm asking about this one, and do you know that this same
21 gentleman was actually commander of the security of the Pristina Corps --
22 rather, the chief of the security organs of the Pristina Corps during the
23 aggression against our country?
24 A. This is the first time I hear about this, Mr. Cepic. I hear it
25 from you.
1 Q. Thank you. Let us just clarify one more thing. Vukojica Vujisic
2 was replaced from his duty because of poor performance; right?
3 A. I was told on account of good performance Cvijic, Nedeljko, with
4 whom I started working in Kosovo together, told me that they expelled him
5 because he was exceptionally professional and a high-quality officer --
6 Q. Thank you, thank you --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the end of the
8 witness's answer.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: We did not get the end of your answer there. Could
10 you clarify it for us, please, Mr. Dorovic. You said that you were told
11 that he was replaced on account of good performance and you said a little
12 more than that.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of lawful, honourable, and
14 proper work. He filed criminal charges, criminal reports, because of
15 serious crimes; that is the only reason why he was expelled. I know
16 specifically and that was the explanation I was given and that's what
17 Nesic told me, too, that he was expelled because of the criminal charges
18 brought against Ristevski and Stefanovic. On that occasion when I
19 explained --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: That's fine. That's obviously much more than you
21 said before. I just wanted to know what you had said before.
22 Mr. Cepic.
23 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I just need a minute to find
24 something in the statement, please, if you allow me.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Dorovic, I am going to quote paragraph 30 of your statement,
3 the last sentence.
4 "I then told Nesic that I would extend the investigation to
5 include Vujisic and confront him with accusations to be involved in this
6 crime. Nesic then cursed my mother," and so on and so forth.
7 A few moments ago you said he was exceptionally proper, or rather,
8 before that you said in your statement that you would extend the
9 investigation so as to include Vujisic --
10 A. You're forgetting something, Mr. Nesic [as interpreted], that
11 Nesic expelled Vujisic. You're forgetting that I started working with new
12 security organs led by Cvijic, Nedeljko.
13 Q. Thank you. But I'm asking you for a specific answer. How come
14 there's such a big difference?
15 A. There's no difference.
16 Q. There's no difference, is that your testimony, no difference in
17 your different statements, yes or no?
18 A. What are you talking about?
19 Q. I'm just waiting for the interpretation to be recorded. I'm going
20 to repeat. Two minutes ago you said that Vujisic was an exceptionally
21 professional, conscientious, and responsible person.
22 A. That is what Nedeljko Cvijic told me the first evening when we
23 met, and he explained it to me in great detail why it was that he had been
24 expelled. He said that he had been expelled by the new people who came in
25 and who now held all the strings in their hands and that they expelled him
1 because he worked lawfully.
2 Q. So why did you want to extend the investigation against Vujisic?
3 A. Mr. Cepic, you are abusing this. Please read all of what I said.
4 You will see that you are maliciously portraying this, taking it out of
5 context. That is my answer to Nesic's assertion that Vujisic actually
6 filed criminal report against the people he worked with, the security
7 organs, because they did not share with him. That is what it says in my
8 report, and I as prosecutor said in that case, Mr. Nesic [as interpreted],
9 I would have to extend the investigation so as to include Vujisic if they
10 shared this together, and then he said that he would expel me, that he
11 didn't need somebody like that. He swore my mother -- he cursed my
12 mother, he swore at me, and he left the office, so it would be fair.
13 Q. I'm just reading this. I read everything in detail and you say -
14 your words are in the statement - "then I said to Nesic that I would
15 extend the investigation so as to include Vujisic and to confront him with
16 the accusations."
17 Did you confront him with the accusations, did you extend the
18 investigation, yes or no?
19 A. I was prevented by Nesic, Mr. Cepic.
20 Q. And why didn't you write an official note about this, that you
21 were prevented in doing what you said previously?
22 A. And why are you prejudging this?
23 Q. Don't respond by putting questions to me. Let your answer be
24 recorded in the transcript. Just take it easy, please.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: So why did you not write an official note?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did write an
2 official note and that official note is one that the security organs are
3 aware of. Colonel Kovac knows about this in the security administration;
4 my commander, Pesic; and my superiors know about this. It was precisely
5 at the very beginning that I indicated what Nesic's threats were and these
6 were threats that were repeated throughout my stay down there. So there
7 is an official note in which I portrayed what Nesic did to me, how he
8 threatened me, how he stopped me from doing my work. There is a written
9 record of this; that I be protected by the security organ of my command,
10 because these are separate commands.
11 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. [Interpretation] You wrote that the door on your car did not work
13 properly, and that is what you wrote on the 30th of May.
14 A. Not only that, Mr. Cepic --
15 Q. Just a second. I'm putting a question. Listen to me carefully.
16 A. Ah, all right, I cannot tell the difference. Actually, I'm trying
17 to understand your question. It seemed to me that you had put a
18 question --
19 Q. Please do not interrupt me, please. I ask you kindly not to
20 interrupt me. On the 30th of May you wrote - and we saw that in the
21 courtroom yesterday - that the door on your car did not work properly and
22 the language was pretty strong that you used in this letter to Colonel
23 Pesic, the commander of the military district. Is it correct --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: What's your question, Mr. Cepic?
25 MR. CEPIC: I'm just asking about something different, very
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you want to ask --
3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Yesterday while giving evidence, when Mr. Aleksic put a question
5 to you, you said that on that day you submitted your request to be
6 relieved of duty. Am I right if I say that it wasn't on the 30th of May
7 that you submitted this request to be relieved of duty?
8 A. On the 1st of June, that's when I submitted a formal request and I
9 handed it in, but, Mr. Cepic --
10 Q. Thank you. Now that we're on the subject of the 1st of June,
11 yesterday you said that you were in detention until the 4th of June, 1999,
12 in the evening. Could you tell me when you were actually detained.
13 A. That's not what I said, Mr. Cepic.
14 Q. Transcript page 97, line 5.
15 A. I said that practically I was in detention on the 4th of June, all
17 Q. Oh, sorry about that. Sorry. Sorry. It was only on the 4th of
18 June that you were in detention?
19 A. Right. While Nesic was breaking up my office and taking
21 Q. And that day they probably took the documents for Ristevski?
22 A. No, he probably took them.
23 Q. Earlier --
24 A. On the evening of the 29th. On that day he only broke into my
1 Q. On that -- [In English] "Tuesday on 29th" --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that Mr. Cepic has to slow
3 down with his questions and cannot overlap with the witness all the time.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, it's a yellow card this time. The
6 interpreter is again saying you must slow down. Now, what remedy do I
7 have against you --
8 MR. CEPIC: I do apologise.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: -- am I going to have to ask someone else to
10 conduct the cross-examination or are you going to do as requested?
11 MR. CEPIC: I apologise one more time, Your Honour. I especially
12 apologise to the interpreters.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much. I will try to do my best.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dorovic, up until the 4th of June, am I
16 right if I say that you carried out your duties as prosecutor on a regular
18 A. The 4th in the morning, up until 10.00 in the morning, yes, you're
20 Q. And officially you were prosecutor all that time?
21 A. Formally, like usual.
22 Q. Thank you. And you also held meetings of your collegium, staff
23 meetings with your colleagues from the prosecutor's office. Isn't that
25 A. On four occasions on General Obrencevic's orders.
1 Q. All the way up to the 4th?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, yesterday
5 during the course of the day I received an e-mail, in my modest opinion, a
6 very interesting document, and I asked for an urgent translation of that
7 document. However, until this moment I do not have a translation of the
8 document, so I ask very kindly -- actually, it's just arrived. It's just
9 arrived, my colleague told me just now. So could we please call up on
10 e-court 5D131.
11 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.
13 MS. MOELLER: I object to that. I haven't even seen the document.
14 I mean, he may put a question on the basis of the document, but I object
15 to the use of the document at this late point. He was obliged to give the
16 documents he would use at the beginning of the cross-examination, which
17 was yesterday in the morning.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the explanation's been given that he received
19 it in the course of yesterday.
20 MS. MOELLER: Well, Your Honours -- but, I don't know why he only
21 received it yesterday. Did they only find it in their files late or what
22 is the background? I don't think that can be a justification all the time
23 just to say, I received it only yesterday.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I have to say I think the Defence have not
25 abused the late -- the possibility of late introduction of documents in
1 this case. I know it's happened occasionally, but my -- I don't have the
2 impression that this is a regular piece of behaviour and deliberately
3 done. I think there may be a couple of occasions where it's appeared that
4 way, and we've dealt with them adequately. But it's unrealistic, I think,
5 to say, Well, he can put questions based on the document but he can't
6 submit the document, bearing in mind that actually proving it is something
7 that probably has to await the presentation of the Defence case. So I
8 don't think it's a particularly helpful way for the Prosecution to police
9 the presentation of the Defence case to take exception to this.
10 However, Mr. Cepic, I think if you could re-direct your
11 cross-examination to something else for the moment and let Ms. Moeller
12 have a copy of the document, then she'll be better prepared to deal with
13 the issue when it arises.
14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please take these
15 copies and for the sake of clarity, Your Honour, unfortunately, I only
16 have four copies here --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you move to something else and then come back
18 to this.
19 MR. CEPIC: Okay, okay. Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation].
22 Q. Mr. Dorovic, is it correct that before the municipal court in Nis
23 under number K133/06 there were proceedings instituted against you because
24 offence to an official person, that is to say, you offended Judge Zoran
25 Popovic; is that correct?
1 A. These proceedings were stopped.
2 Q. Thank you. We cannot deal with it now. Thank you.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that what the e-mail is about?
4 MR. CEPIC: Exactly, Your Honour, and I just showed a copy of
5 e-mail and the time when I received this copy.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think you should come back to it and give
7 Ms. Moeller time to consider the position. So move on to something else
8 just now and return to this later.
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Dorovic, is it correct that on a train between Belgrade and
11 Bar, near the town of Prijepolje, you were preventing policemen from
12 carrying out their duty when you took out your pistol when they asked you
13 to show your ID, which is regular procedure. Could you tell us something
14 about this?
15 A. Mr. Cepic, is it with regret that I have to say that this is a
16 dirty lie, and that it is improper for you to bring something like that up
17 in this honourable court. That is not true. This is a dirty lie that has
18 been abused by the security organs. The case was quite different, and you
19 are misrepresenting it maliciously in passing, which is really beneath the
20 role that you're supposed to play here.
21 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] 3D541 is the document that I would
22 like the registrar to call up here, that is the last paragraph of that
23 statement. Could we have the last page and the last paragraph of the
24 document we see in e-court now.
25 Q. Mr. Dorovic, the penultimate paragraph. This is the testimony of
1 one of the witnesses in the proceedings still pending against you.
2 A. The proceedings were not instituted against me, Mr. Cepic.
3 Q. We'll come to that. We'll see about that.
4 A. Don't take something that is untrue as your starting point. If
5 you know the proceedings is not instituted against me but against the
6 judges who --
7 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Dorovic. Why did you not bring along
8 proof of the fact that the proceedings were not instituted against you?
9 A. I do have that. I do have proof of the fact that the judge, or
10 rather, that the prosecutor dropped the charges and that the court issued
11 two decisions. I asked the Chamber yesterday for permission to show it to
13 Q. When was this?
14 A. What you were referring to about the offence in Nis.
15 Q. No, no. I'm not referring to that offence case. You would know
16 very well what I am referring to.
17 A. There is the decision about the termination of the proceedings
18 that was issued by the district court in Belgrade. I spoke about that
19 yesterday. What Djura Blagojevic states here is not true.
20 Q. Let's take it slowly. Let us not jump from topic to topic. When
21 was the decision terminating the proceedings against you issued at the
22 military department of the district court in Belgrade?
23 A. I got it sometime in the middle of last year, in the month of
25 Q. Thank you. Why don't we have it before us? You gave us a
1 mountain of other documents.
2 A. I don't know why I should be giving anything to you, Mr. Cepic.
3 If you ask me, then I'll give it to you. I'm offering it to you. Here.
4 If you want to have it, I'll give it to you.
5 Q. Why was the procedure before the district court in the military
6 department launched?
7 A. For physical assault.
8 Q. Why was it terminated?
9 A. You see, I received on the 26th of April a new indictment. A
10 hearing was held thereupon, and subsequently the prosecutor dropped the
12 Q. When was this? When did the prosecutor drop the charges?
13 A. I told you already that I was told in the month of July that the
14 prosecutor had given up the charges. I have the decision concerning Nis
15 and concerning that bodily harm which you showed -- which you presented as
16 grievous bodily harm; whereas, it wasn't. And on the 26th of April, on
17 the sixth hearing held in the case, I received an amended indictment. At
18 the very next hearing there was a postponement. I asked for the trial to
19 continue, and I was told that the prosecutor had given up the case.
20 Q. But you did not ever receive a written document?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. Therefore, the proceedings are still pending against you?
23 A. No, Mr. Cepic. That's not true. There are no proceedings against
24 me. There are, however, proceedings against them. There is another
25 decision, if you will.
1 Q. Thank you, thank you.
2 A. You're welcome.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: The 26th of April in which year?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2006, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: And you've heard -- after the postponement and when
6 you were told that the prosecutor had given up the case, since then have
7 you heard anything at all about these proceedings?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that hearing, I asked for the
9 proceeding to be brought to a close so that I'm not exposed to abuse any
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Please listen to my question. Since you were told
12 that the prosecutor had given up the case, have you heard anything further
13 about it?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't receive a document. I
15 didn't hear anything else to that effect, but on that occasion I was told
16 that the prosecutor had given up.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Simple question, Mr. Dorovic. It appears,
18 although you make it very difficult for us by not answering it directly,
19 it appears that you have heard not one word about the matter since you
20 were told in July that the proceedings had been dropped. Is that correct?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, in your system, would that normally suggest to
23 you that that was the end of the matter, that now we are, what, nine
24 months after July.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, that would mean what you
1 said. Two decisions were taken but a third one has to be taken still. I
2 appealed to them to, in fact, issue such a decision because this has been
3 going on for eight years now.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: So in your system a case can go on for nine months
6 without anything actually happening in it?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it can. I wasn't summoned for
8 two years, and now I'm speaking about my case. Of course matters should
9 not proceed that way.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, can we go back to the exhibit that is on the
14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I have the page before that in English.
16 MR. CEPIC: Last page in English, please.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, whoa. I'm asking to see some of this,
18 Mr. Cepic You can go back to it in a moment. I'm just having a look at
19 this page.
20 Now, we heard yesterday, Mr. Cepic, about an allegation of a
21 pistol being drawn, and I thought it was an in office. Is that correct?
22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, I will
23 elucidate the matters in several of my questions. Yes, it did take place
24 there --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: It was -- the allegation yesterday related to
1 something in an office.
2 MR. CEPIC: Exactly.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: This allegation we're looking at here relates to
4 something in a train. Is that correct?
5 MR. CEPIC: Completely two different cases, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: That's all I wanted to know. Please proceed.
7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. You wish to therefore contest the testimony of a sworn witness who
9 testified against you?
10 A. Let me repeat. It's a dirty lie.
11 Q. Thank you. We'll finish that. Let's just go back for one moment
12 to the proceedings -- or rather, to the event on the 30th of May in the
13 evening. We heard during the cross-examination by my learned friend
14 Mr. Aleksic some details concerning this event.
15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the court deputy to call
16 up Prosecution Exhibit P2708.
17 Q. In the meantime, Mr. Dorovic, all of us who are married come into
18 conflict more or less with our mothers-in-law. Did you ever come into
19 conflict with your mother-in-law which ended up before a court?
20 A. Yes, I did, 25 years ago, Mr. Cepic.
21 Q. And this was processed before the Belgrade court, wasn't it?
22 A. I do not wish to speak about that, Mr. Cepic. This is a family
23 matter that was dealt with and done with 25 years ago. This is something
24 that only serves to speak about your person, Mr. Cepic. This was dealt
25 with 25 years ago --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there a purpose in this cross-examination?
2 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will change the topic.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the record -- oh, yes,
5 we have it before us. This is the trial record.
6 Q. In the heading here it says that --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I've misunderstood you. I thought you were
8 departing -- is there a reason for cross-examining the witness about a
9 domestic event 25 years ago in a war crimes trial?
10 MR. CEPIC: I just tried to check credibility of this witness how
11 many times he was before the court.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: And are these --
13 MR. CEPIC: How many times he was proceed before the courts of our
14 country, how many times he was accused.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes and --
16 MR. CEPIC: For which crimes he was accused.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: And during what period of time are we talking?
18 MR. CEPIC: That allegations were 20 years ago, but it was a
19 criminal act.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well -- just give us a moment until we consider
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: We will not allow you to ask any questions about
24 the allegation that you've got on the screen at the moment and we will
25 disregard it. Obviously, we have to deal with each allegation as it
1 comes, but please depart from this one.
2 MR. CEPIC: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour. I just tried to check
3 his criminal record. Thank you.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but not all criminal records are relevant,
5 Mr. Cepic, and we will ensure that we only consider ones that are relevant
6 to issues before us.
7 MR. CEPIC: Thank you one more time.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was never convicted and I'm 51
9 years old. Never ever was I convicted and I am 51 years old. Proceedings
10 were terminated on several occasions --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, do you accept that, that the witness has
12 never been found guilty of any offence?
13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this time I don't have
14 a report from the criminal records in order to double-check this. The
15 witness did say that he was being tried for this offence more than 20
16 years ago. We have a trial record in front of us which dates five years
17 back --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: We've already ruled on this one, Mr. Cepic. And
19 unless you've got before you a foundation, something that tells you he was
20 convicted of something, we will not allow you to ask any more questions
21 about his past record.
22 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't convicted ever. I am 51.
24 It is true that three times there were -- on three occasions there were
25 proceedings --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: We're not interested in allegations of -- in the
2 past history that were never -- that did not result in convictions because
3 we are not here to investigate the rights and wrongs of events many years
4 ago, other than -- by that, I mean many years before 1999.
5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Will I be allowed to put few questions
6 concerning the proceedings instituted against Mr. Dorovic and this refers
7 to the trial record that we see before us. This is tied with the period
8 of time when he served as prosecutor.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, these you can ask about.
10 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 [Interpretation] Can this Exhibit P2708 be turned to page 7 in
12 B/C/S and 10 in English. Could we also have the version in English, page
13 10, please.
14 Q. Mr. Dorovic, we have the trial record before us from the
15 proceedings where you were accused --
16 A. Where I was accused, not am, Mr. Cepic.
17 Q. Very well. We have the testimony by Witness Corac, who was a
18 military police officer at the time and by profession a medical doctor,
19 who testified he was unable to come closer to you because you trained your
20 pistol at him whilst he was in the presence of two more police officers.
21 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we move to page 11 of the English
23 Paragraph 4 in English is where he states: "Back off, Corac. I
24 will kill you all, motherfuckers."
25 Let's carry on. Page 12 of the English translation and page 8 of
1 the original --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: We don't want you to go through various paragraphs
3 before posing a question. You should pose a question in relation to the
4 paragraph you've just read. I think I indicated that at the outset today.
5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation].
6 Q. Am I right in saying that you in your evidence confirmed that you
7 had trained your pistol on them and threatened them with killing them?
8 A. That's a lie.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. This is a falsified document, and because this trial record was
11 falsified, the president of the district court is being held to account.
12 A complete paragraph was left out and the president of the court and Judge
13 Popovic are being tried for this very fact. Why are you concealing this?
14 Q. Thank you. We will get to that.
15 A. You are not a correct person, Mr. Cepic. This is a falsified
16 document and there is a judge who is being held to account for the fact
17 that the document is falsified. Are you aware of the fact that there is
18 an investigation pending for this very fact?
19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dorovic, we received the document from the
20 Prosecution --
21 A. As proof of fact that it's a falsification that the president of
22 the court arranged for the falsification of the document and rigging a
24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 5 of the original,
25 and in English page 7, paragraph 2, the last sentence in English. And in
1 the original it's the first paragraph, last sentence.
2 Q. This is your testimony at the trial where you confirm: "I did,
3 indeed, say something along the lines of: 'Do not come closer. I will
4 kill you. '"
5 A. That was after the physical conflict, after I had taken the police
6 their pistol.
7 Q. You took a pistol off of a police officer?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. This is a police officer's pistol and there is proof of fact whose
11 pistol it was.
12 Q. Let me just go back to what you said. Thank you very much. Thank
13 you very much, indeed.
14 Let's go back to Mr. Corac's testimony, the testimony of
15 Mr. Corac. Let's not elaborate on this too much.
16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Page 8 of the original, please. Page
17 12 of the English version, paragraph 1 thereof.
18 [In English] Your Honour, may I continue, please?
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
20 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Corac introduced himself. He was a reserve
22 military policeman. By profession he was a doctor. And he says in the
23 last sentence that you didn't show any signs of fear at that time. Was he
24 right in saying that?
25 A. This is something for you to conclude when you analyse what he
1 said, but you forget that before that, I had seized the pistol from them
2 and that all this was happening in my office --
3 Q. Thank you --
4 A. And at 22 hours.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you.
6 I can't make any conclusions. I can't draw conclusions, but there
7 are people who can and such conclusions were, indeed, drawn and in
8 practice there are, as you may well know, drawn by professionals.
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have Prosecution Exhibit
11 Q. Mr. Dorovic, in front of us on our screens we can see an opinion
12 by Dr. Tomislav Krstovic, specialist in neuropsychiatry and forensic
13 psychiatry. He says that a longer observation of the accused under
14 hospital conditions is necessary, considering the complexity of the case.
15 He had carefully looked at all the documents in the file and he inferred
16 this conclusion and came up with this opinion.
17 My question is very simple. To this very day, have you ever been
18 checked in order to dispel doubts about your mental health?
19 A. This order was made null and void and this person is criminally
20 charged for this order and you have just -- this was written in order to
21 stop me talking at the moment --
22 Q. No, no, no. Once the witness has said --
23 A. Because this was made null and void at the same moment --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... This is the
25 sort of area that he should be free to deal with. We're not here to hear
1 your speeches; we're here to hear his evidence.
2 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue, Mr. Dorovic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank God
5 that you have realised what this is all about. I'm not going to waste
6 your time. I'll be very brief. In the district court in Belgrade
7 proceedings are pending against the president of the military court,
8 Vukadin Milojevic, and Judge Zoran Popovic for all they have done. They
9 almost put me in an asylum in order to stop me from talking, to shut my
10 mouth after the witnesses, the current judge, and current prosecutor of
11 the district court had confirmed that I had been attacked, that I defended
12 myself, and that I managed to defend both myself and them.
13 The number of that case file is VP -- to be more precise, the
14 district court in Belgrade military department, decision number is
15 VP Ki 13 -- I apologise, 1738/2005. This is the trial to establish
16 criminal responsibility for the fabrication of the record that you just a
17 while ago allowed to be analysed before you. I am thankful to Mr. Cepic
18 for having asked this question. I am only sorry that he did not put it
19 earlier, but -- and I would like to thank you for giving me an opportunity
20 to explain things. In this way Cepic wanted to discredit me as a witness.
21 It's up to you to be the judge of everything, judging by
22 everything that I said and everything I've been through, when the two
23 witnesses said that I defended myself and that I defended them as well.
24 And you should trust them because one of them is a judge and another is a
25 prosecutor, very experienced people. All of this had been stopped, and
1 proceedings are pending against all these people who fabricated all that.
2 There's also a decision on dropping the charges, not of grave
3 bodily harm but light bodily harm, and this is the essence of the matter.
4 This document corroborates the fact that these proceedings were
5 fabricated, that I was framed. And they told me that if I did not accept
6 retirement, that if I did not forget everything that I had done, that I
7 did not leave the army, that they would proclaim me insane. I sought
8 protection from everybody I could in the country. I addressed everybody I
9 possibly could address on that occasion. Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Dorovic.
11 Could you deal with the particular question, as well: Have you
12 ever been the subject of a psychiatric examination subsequent to this
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never. There was no need for that.
15 If you will allow me just one more explanation, Your Honours. In the
16 army, if there are suspicions about the health of the officer, that
17 officer has to undergo examinations, even against their will. So far I
18 have not been put under that, and there have never been any suspicions
19 about my mental health.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
21 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Am I right in saying that you did not file charges against the
23 doctor, but rather against Milojevic and Popovic?
24 A. And all those who were involved in the fabrication of the trial.
25 Q. You did not raise charges against --
1 A. It is true there are criminal reports --
2 Q. Slow down --
3 A. -- from the times when I wanted to challenge criminal
4 responsibility of all these involved. I was summoned -- please don't do
5 that. You cannot deal with this like that. If you want to discredit me,
6 then this has to be done with a measure.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. You can't do it this way, Mr. Cepic.
9 Q. How did you challenge the opinion of this doctor?
10 A. I filed a criminal report against him alleging that he
11 participated --
12 Q. Against the doctor --
13 A. Against all who were involved in that --
14 Q. And about the doctor --
15 A. Against the doctor as well --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Please, when I'm speaking -- when I'm speaking, I
17 expect silence.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, you are the offender here, constantly
20 overrunning the witness, who's answering questions which he's entitled to
21 answer in the way he's choosing to do because of the challenge you are
22 making against him. So please allow him to answer these questions. When
23 I think he's gone too far, I'll stop him. Now, let's start this exercise
25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can you
1 please bear with me just for a moment while I look for ...
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
5 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 I would like to ask Mr. Registrar to tender Exhibit Number 2724,
7 please, P2724.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dorovic, this is a criminal report for the
9 crime of violation of law on the part of the judges that you filed against
10 Vukadin Milojevic, president of the court in Nis; Radenko Miladinovic,
11 judge of the military court in Nis; and an unidentified general from the
12 military leadership.
13 A. Later on I said that it was Radomir Gojovic, and you know it.
14 Q. This was a plot against you wasn't it, conspiracy?
15 A. You may call it whatever. I filed a report on them making efforts
16 to put me to trial, and you can call it whatever. You can call it a
17 conspiracy. Maybe this is part of your effort to discredit me.
18 Q. Thank you. The judge in your proceedings was Zoran Popovic,
19 wasn't he?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. At that moment, no, let me be very precise. It was Radenko
23 Miladinovic who learned about that, and he wanted to be removed from the
24 case, because it was well known that he had been tried in a number of
25 fabricated cases. And he wanted to be excluded from these proceedings,
1 and that is why he was indeed excluded; and then this was given to Popovic
2 and he continued in the same way.
3 Q. Thank you very much. In the meantime, you were prosecuted by the
4 prosecutor for offending Popovic?
5 A. No.
6 Q. I'm asking about later. These proceedings were stayed because of
7 the amendments to the criminal law, and Mr. Popovic did not want to join
8 the prosecution against you.
9 A. This is prosecuted ex officio, and the prosecutor abandoned the
10 charges. He dropped the case 93 pursuant to Article 101. Mr. Cepic, at
11 the time when this insult allegedly took place, this was prosecuted ex
12 officio. And he dropped the charges because there was no insult, and it
13 had -- it was proven that the proceedings had been fabricated and that's
14 why he is now criminal charged not me.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have Prosecution Exhibit
18 Q. In front of us we have a decision dropping the proceedings against
19 you for another crime, crime of insult, and in the statement of reasons it
20 says: "The criminal proceedings against the accused Lakic Dorovic,
21 lieutenant-colonel, serving with the Ministry of Defence for crime of
22 insult from Article 1993 [as interpreted], paragraph 2 has abandoned the
23 pursuit of prosecution for this criminal act"?
24 A. You know that pursuant to Article 101, the acts are prosecuted ex
25 officio. You may be right that this may be wrong, because this is
1 prosecuted ex officio and you know it only too well. This is not correct.
2 Q. Thank you very much. Let me go back to the previously mentioned
3 criminal report?
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can I now call up exhibit number
6 Q. Am I right in saying that the higher instance, the higher
7 judiciary instance, issued this decision on the screen to turn down your
9 A. Why are you talking about a document which has been ruled out for
10 a long time?
11 Q. So this has been ruled out?
12 A. Yes. You have a decision on new proceedings. Why are you talking
13 about a decision which is no longer topical? This is just one in a series
14 of your incorrect actions. You are a good lawyer, but this is obviously
15 malicious on your part. Why are you not showing us the decision that is
16 in place, that is effective now, because there are proceedings underway
18 Q. Thank you very much. Let's look at the last paragraph of this
19 document. In your appeal, you expanded on the allegation. You have
20 mentioned some war crimes but not a specific one, and the supreme military
21 court finds that if you had learned about crimes as an official person
22 pursuant to Articles 2 and 3 --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 223 .
24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation].
25 Q. -- of the ZKP, the law on criminal proceedings, you are duty-bound
1 to report such acts to the Prosecutor.
2 A. This is true, Mr. Cepic, and I reported on those in 1999 to
3 everybody in the state, including the state federal prosecutor.
4 Mr. Cepic, you have just shown us a criminal report. The Court has to
5 bear in mind that I addressed the supreme military prosecutor, not
6 Milosavljevic at the first-instance court who was ordained with the three
7 ranks in a scope of 14 months and you have to know that.
8 Q. You cannot be promoted in service because there are all -- still
9 proceedings against you pending, and you cannot be promoted to the rank of
10 colonel because of the proceedings that are pending against you.
11 A. Mr. Cepic, let my superiors talk about that, but the fact is I was
12 the first one put forth for promotion and that the decision was prepared
13 with the signature of the president of the republic on my republic. But
14 because of the conflict with the security organ, it was from -- by them
15 that I was put forth in 2002 for the position of the military prosecutor
16 in Belgrade. You have to know that. There is written document to that
18 Q. Thank you very much. But in keeping with the letter of the law,
19 you cannot be promoted in the military service because --
20 A. I cannot be appointed as a prosecutor, I cannot be appointed as a
21 judge, and I have to suffer abuse. I have to continue suffering abuse.
22 You're very right, Mr. Cepic.
23 Q. Because there are proceedings pending against you?
24 A. There were proceedings against me. There were, and I am repeating
25 it for the third time, I believe.
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 A. That's why they don't intend to finish the proceedings. They are
3 waiting for me to either be retired or to die. However, I'm still alive,
4 and I still haven't fled the way they've fled.
5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, will you allow me to go
6 back to an exhibit that I received yesterday --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
8 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] -- or rather, the exhibit that I
9 received yesterday, and in that way I will finish my cross-examination?
10 Thank you.
11 Could we see in e-court Defence Exhibit 5D131.
12 Q. Mr. Dorovic, you confirmed to us that on the 1st of June, you
13 were in your office, the prosecutor's office, that you had meetings, that
14 you were informed about everything. Please take a careful look at this
15 document in front of you. You said previously that Ristevski, Zoran, and
16 Stefanovic, Aleksandar, are the cases that were stolen before that on the
17 29th of May.
18 We have here a judgement of the military court attached to the
19 command of the military district of Pristina on the day of June 1st, 1999,
20 dealing with Ristevski and Stefanovic.
21 A. Mr. Cepic, with full responsibility before this Court and before
22 all courts in this world, with full responsibility before God I, claim
23 that Ristevski was not tried at the time when I was in Kosovo; that is to
24 say, until the 4th of June, 1999, at 10.00 in the morning, I claim to you,
25 with full responsibility, that Ristevski was not tried and that this trial
1 was not attended by prosecution attorneys.
2 I would have been present had there been a trial. This is a
3 forgery. I'm aware of the gravity of what I'm saying; but up until the
4 4th of June, Ristevski was not tried. Most probably this is a forgery.
5 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Dorovic.
6 A. You're more than welcome, Mr. Cepic.
7 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, we just have a mistake in translation.
8 In introduction part, there is -- this is marked 1st of May, 1999; but in
9 original document, it is 1st of June, 1999.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: The document says the hearing was on the 1st of
11 May. Is that ...
12 MR. CEPIC: It is mistake. If you see the previous part of
13 sentence, first military prosecutor criminal number 390/99, dated 22nd May
14 1999, after a public hearing held on 1st May. In original document, it is
15 the 1st of June. Even the witness confirmed that the indictment is issued
16 on 22nd of May.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the indictment was, but there
18 is this other indictment, Mr. Cepic.
19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
21 A. Well, Mr. Cepic, please don't deal with it so partially. Let us
22 get to the truth.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: We've heard that there's another indictment earlier
24 in the evidence.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And also, by your leave, Your
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The crime is formulated in a
4 different way here. Everything is different here. You cannot see who
5 prosecution counsel is. And since these charges are brought ex officio,
6 you cannot do that without the actual prosecuting attorney involved.
7 It's not a proposal to take to court to prosecute --
8 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Wait a second. You said it was not a proposal to prosecute?
10 A. I'm talking about two indictments, Mr. Cepic.
11 Q. Here it says in the introductory part: "Deciding in accordance
12 with the proposal to prosecute of the military prosecutor" --
13 A. Mr. Cepic, everybody can read what is written here. The Court can
14 read it for themselves, too, but I am telling you that these are
15 proceedings regarding two indictments; then you know full well what
16 indictments are, what proposals to indict or prosecute are.
17 Q. Absolutely. And you said yesterday that these indictments are
18 registered as 3D0/99 [as interpreted]; right, of the 22nd --
19 A. Two, two; both are the 22nd of May.
20 Q. 3D0/99 [as interpreted]?
21 A. 3D0/91 [as interpreted].
22 Q. Yesterday, you didn't mention 91 --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Please slow down. It's got to the stage where I
24 will have to take action because you've been asked repeatedly both of
25 you --
1 MR. CEPIC: I apologise.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: -- to take this much more slowly and observe a
3 pause. This is not appropriate behaviour in a courtroom. So please --
4 MR. CEPIC: I apologise, Your Honour.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Honour, I
7 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, if you allow me, we have a problem in
8 transcript page 42, line 14 and 15, it is not 3D --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: It's also in line 12, it's 3 --
10 MR. CEPIC: I said --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: It's 390/99.
12 MR. CEPIC: Yes, exactly, I said 390/99.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there you're finding the sort of problem that
14 arises when you speak too quickly.
15 MR. CEPIC: I apologise one more time. Thank you, Your Honours,
16 that was my last and final question for this witness.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dorovic, thank you for the answers you
18 gave. Please don't take this personally because this is the way things go
19 in a cross-examination, and we are professionals here. Thank you once
21 A. Even that does not mean behaving in an inappropriate way. You are
22 a very professional man, and you know that you acted very unfairly today.
23 I had a different impression of what your role was supposed to be and a
24 different role of what you personally were supposed to be like. I am
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. I'm glad I met you.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, do you have any questions?
4 MR. LUKIC: No questions.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic, do you have any questions?
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: No questions, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there re-examination?
10 MS. MOELLER: Yes, there is, Your Honour. Could we maybe -- would
11 you like me to start right now --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: No.
13 MS. MOELLER: -- or take a break --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. The break today should have been five
15 minutes ago. And we will take the break now and we will resume at 11.00.
16 Mr. Dorovic, we need to have a break at this time. It's a bit
17 earlier than yesterday, but that's for our own technical reasons. Would
18 you again go with the usher from the courtroom and we'll see you again at
20 [The witness stands down]
21 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.
25 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Re-examination by Ms. Moeller:
2 Q. Sir, I just have a couple of questions to clarify some points from
3 the cross-examination of the counsel for you. And let's start with the
4 issues we discussed just this morning. The proceedings regarding this
5 brawl you had with your deputy while you were in Pristina still. On that
6 day that this event occurred, what had happened in the morning?
7 A. On the 30th of May in the morning, for the umpteenth time, Nesic
8 walked in and he presented me with an ultimatum, asking me to drop
9 criminal charges and he threatened me.
10 Q. And if I --
11 A. After that --
12 Q. -- if I can interrupt you here. I was just trying to clarify. Is
13 that the day -- was that the same day that this brawl occurred in the
14 evening where in the morning Nesic threatened you in regard to these
15 files, Ristevski and Stefanovic? That was all on one day, was it?
16 A. I think that this was the fourth time. I have this precisely
17 recorded in my diary, and I can refer to the dates --
18 Q. Yes, thank you --
19 A. -- the first time was on the 26th and this was on the 30th --
20 well, yes. I would like to emphasise that these were --
21 Q. Sir, I'm just trying to clarify the chronology of the events here.
22 MS. MOELLER: If we could call up P2708 which is the trial
23 transcript, if we could go to page 5, the bottom paragraph in the English
25 Q. In this paragraph in the trial transcript this is what you stated
1 according to this transcript, which you already said is not entirely
2 complete. But it is recorded there the same way that you just explained
3 it today, that it was the very day the brawl occurred that Nesic had
4 threatened you once more in the morning. And I don't want to go through
5 the transcript I just want to point out --
6 MS. MOELLER: And I wish to tender the transcript in whole, Your
7 Honours, at this stage, because we have looked at so parts and I think it
8 is necessary for you to have the whole document and this fact is actually
9 confirmed by the injured party in this transcript, which is on page 14 of
10 the English version and it is also confirmed by another witness,
11 Blagojevic, on page 18 of this very transcript that Mr. Dorovic had,
12 indeed, been threatened by Mr. Nesic that very morning of that particular
14 JUDGE BONOMY: In tendering this whole transcript, though, for us
15 to consider, is it to assist determination of this point or are you saying
16 that the whole content should be considered for their own merits?
17 MS. MOELLER: I'm tendering it for this particular point, Your
18 Honours, and --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Because I got the impression that the witness
20 doesn't accept all of it.
21 MS. MOELLER: Yes, that's correct. He says it's incomplete, and
22 against this background the argument would be that even though it is
23 incomplete that this transcript, even under this premise confirms what he
24 said was the context in which this incident occurred. And I would now
25 like to ask some more questions about the incident as he would describe
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the situation as you've presented it, is no
3 different from the situation in relation to any other exhibit that we've
4 considered. We will take account of it insofar as it appears to us to
5 cast light on other evidence and to be of value in itself, and we will do
6 that in the light of the comments made about it. Thank you.
7 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Mr. Dorovic, I would like you -- there was some talk about a
9 pistol being involved in this incident and I would like you to explain as
10 short and precise as you can what was the situation with regard to this
12 A. This pistol, I took it away during the brawl and this was the
13 pistol of Dragoljub Zdravkovic, as was later established. This pistol, I
14 handed over to Cvijic. Witnesses say that he was here on the premises,
15 that is, during the brawl. You have the statement of witness Zdravkovic,
16 who is the current prosecutor, then of witness Blagojevic, who also
17 confirms that Cvijic as the security organ was there all the time on the
18 premises. On the morning the next day I gave Cvijic that pistol and there
19 is a certificate to that effect. I asked for him to carry out his
20 expertise, and there is a certificate in writing on his behalf as security
21 organ that this pistol was handed over. It's not my pistol. It is the
22 pistol that I at one point in time during this clash took away from
23 Zdravkovic and it ultimately turned out that it was a police pistol --
24 Q. And, Mr. Dorovic --
25 A. -- I just wish to --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Dorovic. Can you tell me whether
2 you normally kept a pistol of your own.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment I did not have a
4 pistol. Just the day before that on the 29th in the evening, on advice
5 from my commander, Colonel Pesic, I was issued with an automatic rifle.
6 And he advised me to sleep in the office. As a matter of fact, he
7 asked --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Was there ever an occasion in 1998 or 1999 when you
9 kept a pistol?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I had my own service
11 pistol. I do have a pistol service. All officers have service pistols --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but then I got a rifle.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Well, the rifle's of no concern to
15 anything that's arisen in the case so far.
16 Ms. Moeller.
17 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Sir, why did you take this pistol away from Mr. Zdravkovic in the
20 A. Because we exchanged a few blows. I used to be a successful
21 sportsman. I did karate. I was a strong man. I managed to defeat him.
22 He was a stronger man than I was, and that's why he thought that he could
23 handle me and humiliate me. But as we were fighting at one moment, I
24 managed to take away his pistol; and at one point in time, the police
25 appeared. It was Corac precisely.
1 Q. Yes. And when you took the pistol away from Zdravkovic, where was
3 A. This happened in my office.
4 Q. So when Corac and the others entered the office, you had the
5 pistol in your hand. Is that what you're saying?
6 A. Absolutely --
7 Q. And --
8 A. -- and I never pointed it at the police, never ever would I have
9 done something like that. I'm a prosecutor. I had never seen that man in
10 my life. I actually do not even know whether he was there. This Corac,
11 actually. I first saw him at the trial in Nis. From the commander --
12 [Microphone not activated].
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Dorovic, for the first time I think in this
15 trial, I've used the button here to silence the microphone of someone who
16 is not doing as the Court requires him to do. You were asked a simple
17 question which you answered, and there was no need to give us the rest of
18 your life's history in addition.
19 Ms. Moeller.
20 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
21 Q. After Corac and the others had arrived and you had the pistol in
22 your hand, when did you give the pistol? When did you turn it over? And
23 please, really, focus on this exact a question. We go through step by
25 A. The following day when Cvijovic, the security organ, came to see
1 me. I told him what it was that had happened, and I gave him the pistol.
2 He wrote a certificate stating that I had handed over the pistol.
3 Q. And that particular day, the 30th, after what had happened in the
4 morning, once more how did you feel that day in terms of your personal
6 A. You see, if people who kill and who you know killed tell you that
7 they will kill you, if they insult you, if they threaten you, like Nesic
8 did to me in front of 60 people. He told me that he did not need that
9 kind of prosecutor, that he would liquidate me or expel me. And he was
10 swearing on me at ethnic grounds. He cursed my Montenegrin mother. For
11 me, that is a terrible insult. So it was more of that than fear. At that
12 moment I could not think about the actual impact of everything he had said
13 to me.
14 The only thing that was in my head was that this was a man who was
15 powerful and dangerous, and particularly because he asked me not to
16 mention, not to say, not to think about doing anything about Stosic. And
17 I knew that he was an exceptionally dangerous man, the most dangerous man
18 in the army, and I as the prosecutor knew about him, had occasion to know
19 about him.
20 Q. Thank you --
21 A. So on the other hand if somebody publicly --
22 Q. Mr. Dorovic --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Your microphone's been silenced again; and if this
24 happens again, then we will bring your evidence to an end. You will not
25 get a chance to clarify the things that the Prosecutor wishes you to have
1 a chance to clarify after cross-examination if I have to do this one more
3 Ms. Moeller.
4 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up Exhibit P2731, please.
5 Q. As we discussed earlier today, the first-instance court issued an
6 order for a neuropsychiatric examination of you, and was this decision
7 overturned to your knowledge at some point? And just a yes or no would
9 A. Yes, it was.
10 Q. And if you look at the document that is on the screen, do you
11 recognise this decision as a decision -- as the very decision which
12 overturned the decision of the first-instance court?
13 A. Yes, that's it. That is that decision of the supreme military
15 MS. MOELLER: And can we go to page 3 in the English version,
16 please. Yes, go down a little, please, further.
17 Q. This decision states that this so-called expert was never in any
18 personal contact with you nor was he present at the trial session as such.
19 Can you confirm that, because you were there?
20 A. Absolutely. That's what I assert. I don't even know the man --
21 Q. Okay. Thank you.
22 A. -- I've never seen him in my life.
23 MS. MOELLER: Now, can we call up Exhibit P2759, please, the last
24 page in the English version.
25 Q. You -- it was discussed with you earlier that the judge in the
1 first-instance trial was Judge Popovic. Is that correct?
2 A. At first it was Radenko Miladinovic who --
3 Q. Yes, you've said that --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: We've had that whole story from you. You've been
5 asked a simple question if the judge that actually dealt with the case was
6 Judge Popovic, yes or no.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these were proceedings
8 going on for eight years. If we're talking about the moment of expertise,
9 yes, it was Popovic.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 Ms. Moeller --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before that --
13 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
14 Q. That's all I needed to know, sir.
15 MS. MOELLER: I don't see the exhibit on the screen yet.
16 Q. This is another request for assistance that we, the Office of the
17 Prosecutor, sent to Serbia and Montenegro.
18 MS. MOELLER: Can we have the English exhibit? Okay.
19 The request for assistance was addressed to Serbia requesting
20 files on the proceedings we discussed earlier today against the three
21 persons against which the proceedings were then ended, as we heard today.
22 And on page -- on the last page, if we could go there, if we could zoom
23 in. Yes.
24 That was sent on 30 November 2006 and there is mentioned that
25 there is an ongoing criminal procedure number VP Ki 1738/05 against
1 Vukadin Milojevic and Zoran Popovic.
2 Q. Is this the very proceeding you mentioned when you talked with
3 Mr. Cepic about whether or not there are still proceedings ongoing against
4 persons who triggered the proceedings against you?
5 A. Yes, and they forged records --
6 Q. Yes --
7 A. -- and one of the incriminations in --
8 Q. Mm-hmm. And this Zoran Popovic is the very Judge Popovic that we
9 were just talking about?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. MOELLER: I see Mr. Cepic on his feet, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise for interrupting the
15 examination of my learned friend Ms. Moeller; however, it seems to me that
16 there is an omission. On page 51 in line 9 my colleague said "expert"
17 when she was commenting document P2731. She said "alleged expert";
18 however, in the document it doesn't say "alleged expert." It
19 says "expert." That's the only mistake that was made. I believe it's an
20 important one, and I believe that it was inadvertent on the part of my
21 colleague in terms of interpreting the words that are there.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Your comments are noted, Mr. Cepic.
23 Please continue, Ms. Moeller.
24 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 MS. MOELLER:
2 Q. Moving away now from this subject and moving on to some other
3 issues that were discussed during yesterday and today, today several
4 documents were shown to you and yesterday also there was mentioning of a
5 mass grave at Pusto Selo. The mass grave near Orahovac that you talk
6 about in your statement in paragraph 35, has that anything to do with this
7 mass grave at Pusto Selo that you were asked questions about, to your
8 knowledge? And yes or no would, again, suffice.
9 A. I can say neither yes or no, because I don't know the exact
10 location in view of the name of this place, that is. I assume -- but I'm
11 not sure of this.
12 Q. Okay.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: You assume what?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That it could be linked up if it has
15 to do with the same place --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 Ms. Moeller.
18 MS. MOELLER:
19 Q. Now going back to something Mr. Visnjic asked you yesterday about
20 particular requests that you sent to the authorities requesting that the
21 disciplinary proceedings regarding the Natasa Kandic event be ended
22 against you, and Mr. Visnjic showed Exhibit 2735, which we don't have to
23 call up again.
24 My question is only: How many of such requests did you send since
25 this proceeding was initiated to official authorities?
1 A. I have to be precise. Proceedings are considered initiated on the
2 day when the decision is brought on carrying out a disciplinary
3 investigation --
4 Q. Mr. Dorovic, please, let us try to focus on what I want to adduce
5 from you. Please listen for a second. How many times did you request
6 that these proceedings be ended one way or another? Just give us a number
7 or -- if you can.
8 A. Oh, now I understand what you are saying. Many times.
9 Unfortunately, I cannot say, but really, many times. I requested the
10 minister through the head of department, through the military court in
11 Belgrade, and indeed that court did call upon the ministry to have a
12 decision made with respect to this matter. I even had to write an open
13 letter in the press --
14 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
15 A. -- I cannot give you the exact number so --
16 Q. Okay, okay -- okay --
17 A. -- ten times.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, there was also an issue about how many times you
19 actually requested to be released from your position as the military
20 prosecutor. And my learned friend Mr. Visnjic tendered two exhibits in
21 this regard yesterday. And you said yesterday in response that there were
22 other requests that weren't tendered.
23 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up Exhibit P2753, please.
24 Q. Mr. Dorovic --
25 MS. MOELLER: Is that already the Serbian version? I don't think
1 so. Now it's on the screen.
2 Q. Could you look at that. Is that another request you sent on 1st
3 June 1999 to be released of your position?
4 A. For the fourth time in my career as a prosecutor, I believe that
5 earlier today to Mr. Cepic's question I clearly said that this was on the
6 1st of June, and yes, this is the document.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. MOELLER: Now, can we call up Exhibit 2712, please.
9 Q. Which is the official note that was made by Mr. Karan on the talks
10 he had with you about a number of aspects and complaints that you made,
11 which was discussed extensively yesterday with Mr. Visnjic.
12 MS. MOELLER: Can we go to the point 4 of this document. I think
13 it's page 3 -- sorry, page 4. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. Visnjic pointed out yesterday things that he did not find in
15 this official note. If you look at point 4, Mr. Karan notes that you
16 discussed with him the issue, the allegations that evidence was destroyed
17 about some crimes. Can you confirm that you raised this issue with him?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one moment.
19 Mr. Visnjic.
20 MR. VISNJIC: Your Honour, I believe that if a question is put,
21 the paragraph should be read through, because what this point 4 refers to
22 and if we are looking at the same thing - I don't know what you have
23 before you - has nothing whatever to do with what I asked the witness
24 about and what witness talked in response to my question. I questioned
25 the witness about the period relevant to the indictment, whereas here
1 under bullet point 4 a reference is made to an entirely different
2 development and this does not arise from my cross-examination.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I think anything in a document that has been
4 explored in cross-examination that might help explain the witness's
5 answers is plainly something that may be raised in re-examination; yet the
6 outcome of the examination is a matter for comment in due course.
7 And you can continue with the question, Ms. Moeller.
8 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. As I said, this note refers to one bullet point: "Evidence was
10 destroyed ..."
11 Did you discuss these allegations with Mr. Karan in this meeting?
12 A. Yes, the entire day, around 8.00, about serious things mostly --
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. -- later on --
15 Q. Mm-hmm. And if you look at the end of the paragraph above that,
16 there is also mentioning of a case against Milovan Tijanic. Did you also
17 discuss this Tijanic matter with Mr. Karan in this meeting?
18 A. Believe me, Your Honours --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]...
20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could my learned
21 friend tell me where a reference is made to Tijanic, where his name is
22 mentioned --
23 MR. VISNJIC: I'm sorry, we have a B/C/S version which is
24 completely --
25 MS. MOELLER: At the end of paragraph 3.
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yeah, it's visible now but in my
2 copy it was -- sorry.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. No need to apologise.
4 Can you now answer the question, please, Mr. Dorovic.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke about Tijanic. I spoke
6 about more than a hundred cases. I primarily insisted and I'm grateful
7 for having been given occasion to speak about what they had done --
8 MS. MOELLER:
9 Q. Thank you --
10 A. -- the people from the security services, that is.
11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that there
12 were grounds for my remark. Could the Prosecutor read to the witness the
13 entire part that is illegible here save for the name of the witness.
14 Maybe the Prosecutor could read to the witness what is the case involved,
15 before what court, and against whom. Maybe the Prosecutor should read all
16 that to the witness.
17 MS. MOELLER: If we could have the English version back on the
18 screen I can do that, certainly. And the relevant text is: "... And a
19 case against Milovan Tijanic conducted by the military court in Nis."
20 I would --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you waiting for my comment? I
22 spoke about the proceedings against Tijanic which were conducted before
23 the war court affiliated with the command in Belgrade, but I know that
24 Tijanic was also processed --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on.
1 Mr. Aleksic, what's the problem?
2 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] During this witness's
3 examination-in-chief no reference was made to the proceedings in Nis. I
4 agree that we spoke about the proceedings in Belgrade, but now we're
5 talking about these proceedings in Nis. The name Tijanic and the case
6 before this witness as a prosecutor in Belgrade, yes, but the case in Nis,
7 this is something new.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a case by the security
9 organs --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Please don't speak until I invite you to. Thank
12 Yes, Mr. Aleksic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Anything else you want to say, Mr. Aleksic?
15 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] No, nothing else. This is the first
16 time we hear of the case against Milovan Tijanic before the court in Nis.
17 The witness never mentioned this, either on his direct or on the cross,
18 and I don't think it should be allowed to him to now start talking about
19 this case.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, can you comment on that, please.
21 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I only wanted to point out that this
22 name appears in this document and I don't intend to lead any further
23 evidence -- or to ask any further questions on that. It was just a
24 re-examination in relation to Mr. Visnjic's pointing out of what is all
25 not contained in this document that I was pointing out that some things
1 were indeed contained, some known names and --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: And no question arises of whether the witness
3 discussed Tijanic in any other context that was referred to in
5 MS. MOELLER: Well, he said when I asked him earlier on, I think,
6 that he discussed the case with Mr. Karan. I would need to check the
7 transcript, but that's what I understood, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: He was talking about proceedings before the war
9 court affiliated with the command in Belgrade, and he also knows there
10 were proceedings in Nis.
11 MS. MOELLER: Yes, so to me, that was answered the way that he
12 discussed both matters.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 MS. MOELLER: I'll move on.
15 Q. Mr. Dorovic, regarding this incident with Mr. Tijanic, in the
16 transcript of yesterday, page 11626 you said that what was done in this
17 event was done on orders of Pavkovic and Ojdanic. In your statement you
18 state that it was done on orders of Pavkovic and Lazarevic. Can you
19 please clarify that?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the
22 question is wrong. The witness did not say that it had been done on
23 Pavkovic's and Ojdanic's orders. He said that Tijanic allegedly had the
24 authority bestowed upon him from Pavkovic and Ojdanic. Please do not
25 allow the Prosecutor to put questions in this way. He said that witnesses
1 had told him that Tijanic had been given authority from Pavkovic and
2 Lazarevic, and yesterday he said that it was from Pavkovic and Ojdanic.
3 This is the essence of his statement, both the written statement and his
4 testimony yesterday.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you accept that, Ms. Moeller?
6 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honour, I accept that what the witness said
7 in the statement is what he said, and if I misinterpreted that, then that
8 was my mistake.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 MS. MOELLER: I wasn't meaning to imply anything here.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, please continue -- which paragraph in the
12 statement is it, remind me?
13 MS. MOELLER: It is -- it's -- I'm sorry, Your Honours. I'm --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I have it noted if I can find it, because --
15 MS. MOELLER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Paragraph 17 onwards which
16 deals with -- and it's actually paragraph 17, the last -- the second-last
17 sentence --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I have it. Thank you.
19 MS. MOELLER:
20 Q. So, sir, my question was: In the statement you said that from the
21 written statements it occurred -- or the written statements contained that
22 these operations carried out by Tijanic were done on orders of Pavkovic
23 and Lazarevic, and yesterday you said Pavkovic and Ojdanic. And I just
24 wanted to clarify this point, please, and shortly if you can.
25 A. Tijanic himself claimed that he did everything on the order of
1 Pavkovic and Lazarevic. The witnesses, on the other hand, who were
2 supposed to either contest or confirm his testimony also said that they
3 had provided assistance. Those were witnesses that provided material
4 goods, and they had certificates to that effect. We asked them to tell us
5 whether they had provided that material and if they indeed did, what was
6 the purpose of providing those things, because we're talking about a lot.
7 And each and every one of them told the security organs, and I
8 subsequently read these statements, they all claimed that they provided
9 assistance to Tijanic in order to help the army, the Pristina Corps, and
10 our units on Kosovo. This is what they claimed.
11 Yesterday, to Mr. Visnjic's question, I said that I thought that
12 this was done pursuant to an order. Furthermore, if you will allow me, I
13 can also clarify this. Tijanic at that time in Belgrade pursuant to that
14 criminal report and in those proceedings was also answerable for such a
15 collection of things in Kosovo. At that moment the security organs
16 insisted on the abuse of official position that he was also involved in
17 when he was in Kosovo. A reference was made to a car company from
18 Pristina to several repair companies, and later on it turned out that all
19 that was true and this was also discussed both in Belgrade and --
20 Q. Sir, I'm still not clear. Why and in which role, if any, did you
21 mention General Ojdanic yesterday in this context?
22 A. Tijanic claimed that he had permissions by the minister of
23 defence, the Chief of the General Staff, and everybody in the state and
24 that whatever he was doing, he was doing it continuously in Serbia, in the
25 entire territory of Serbia where he collected assistance and help --
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. -- he also claimed that he was doing that with the permission of
3 Minister Pavle Bulatovic, General Ojdanic, and he mentioned all the other
4 generals as well. He literally claimed that he was doing everything
5 pursuant to order starting with minister across the entire military
6 leadership and that this was his task, the task he was entrusted with to
7 carry out.
8 Q. Thank you. I think that clarifies this issue.
9 My last --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm glad you've got it clear. What we have is the
11 minister and the whole senior army officers --
12 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: -- now, which is rather different from yesterday's
14 answer and rather different from the answer in the statement.
15 MS. MOELLER: Maybe one follow-up question, Your Honour.
16 Q. Who ever mentioned or implied General Ojdanic in this to you?
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that this
19 question should be ruled out. It's not admissible. Bearing in mind the
20 fact that the witness has provided three answers. She has had three
21 opportunities to ask this question. This is very much a leading question,
22 and this is my chief objection.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: None of these objections are well-founded. It's a
24 perfectly appropriate question for re-examination.
25 Please continue, Ms. Moeller.
1 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
2 Q. Sir, the question was: Whoever mentioned or implied General
3 Ojdanic in these events to you? And please be short.
4 A. I've already told you, it was Tijanic. Tijanic claimed that he
5 was doing that with the permission of the state leadership, the military
6 leadership, and then he named people who had allegedly allowed that. When
7 he was naming them he said everybody from the minister of defence to
8 General Lazarevic and he also mentioned General Ojdanic among all these
9 names. This is what he said, and you can see it in his evidence.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 Now, the last aspect I need to address with you is the
12 disappearance of these 17 case files that we talked about yesterday,
13 paragraph 27 of your statement. And I want you to be very short and
14 specific in your answers, because I will be very specific in my questions.
15 These cases were first with you; correct? Yes or no suffices.
16 A. Yes, they were first my cases.
17 Q. And then, according to paragraph 27 of your statement, they were
18 turned over to Spasojevic, meaning the military prosecutor at the Pristina
19 command; yes or no?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And at the time they were turned over from you to him, where these
22 files complete, to your knowledge?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And why not?
25 A. Some important documents were missing, some important evidence was
1 missing from them, from those case files.
2 Q. And how did this come about?
3 A. Somebody just removed the documents that are mentioned in the
4 request to conduct investigation and in the request to carry out certain
5 investigative procedures.
6 Q. And when did that happen?
7 A. I filed my report, convinced that this had happened on the 29th of
8 May and on the 30th of May. And I blame the security organs, Nesic,
9 Cvijovic, and others for that very openly. I was very suspicious of them,
10 and I also filed a report against the president of the court as well.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: So how did -- how did these papers disappear while
12 the files were in your custody?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somebody simply removed them. Not
14 the entire case files went missing, just some documents from those case
15 files. 15 investigations were ongoing at the time.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: And that happened while these files were in your
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could not have been in my
19 office, Your Honours. They could have been in the office of the court and
20 the investigative judges --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- those were cases pending trial.
23 I am a prosecutor, Your Honours, and in our system at one point in time
24 everything is turned over to the court and while the court is in charge of
25 the case, the case files are with the court.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
2 Ms. Moeller.
3 MS. MOELLER:
4 Q. So these case files -- how did you know that documents had been
5 removed from these files before they were turned over to Spasojevic?
6 A. Because the investigative judges asked us to state whether we
7 adhered to our request for investigation, i.e., request for certain
8 investigative procedures. Since the court declared itself territorially
9 incompetent and in that case I as a prosecutor, together with my deputies,
10 had to inspect every single case file in order to state our view. After
11 we had read the requests, either for the investigations or for some
12 investigative procedures, we saw it very clearly that in the description
13 of the criminal act certain documents were mentioned, certain certificate
14 on confiscated goods. Some official notes and other things which we could
15 not locate in the case files. In order for us to be able to decide, I ran
16 up to the president of the court, and from him requested to complete the
17 case files. And then he told me, Dorovic, forget everything. This has
18 already been decided. Another person will be in charge of that.
19 Q. Okay. So I understand - and tell me if I correctly understand -
20 these files were not turned over from your prosecutor's office but
21 actually from the court, that you reviewed them before they were turned
23 A. I registered every case, and in every case file there is my
24 request --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Please stop. The question is about which office
1 they actually left last before going into the hands of Spasojevic. Was it
2 from you or from the court?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the court's office. That was
4 the final place where they were.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 Ms. Moeller.
7 MS. MOELLER:
8 Q. And you say at this stage documents within the files were missing;
10 A. That is what I was able to observe, together with my deputies, at
11 the time, correct.
12 Q. And then -- the rest of the files were turned over to Spasojevic?
13 A. Actually, to his court, because he was a prosecutor. This case
14 involving the grave was turned over to him personally. As for the rest,
15 they were referred to the court with the command of the Pristina Corps
16 with a reference to the KV number.
17 Q. Okay. Okay. Now I think that clarifies it to some extent.
18 What happened then to these files, if anything, after they were
19 turned over to the court at the Pristina command?
20 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that. Spasojevic just consulted me
21 about the mass grave case and told me that it had been decided that he
22 would proceed in this case. What happened to these cases, what the final
23 decision was, I really don't know, what happened to these cases. What
24 happened to them, I really don't know.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you.
1 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I think that clarifies paragraph 27 in
2 the statement which is in its form not clear. And I think that also
3 concludes my re-examination. Thank you.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Ms. Moeller.
5 Mr. Visnjic.
6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have nothing special
7 to say in relation to the examination we heard just now, the re-direct.
8 However, I would just like to draw your attention to something. Since my
9 colleague asked for all of 2D708 to be -- P2708 to be exhibited and I did
10 not speak about that but 3D543, Cvijic's statement, I would like the Court
11 to look at that in its entirety, too, in relation to the entirety of
12 document P2708.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have anything to say on that, Ms. Moeller?
14 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, I understand documents in
15 cross-examination to go in to the record as far as the witness responds to
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.
18 MS. MOELLER: And that would be our position.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: But that extends to those aspects of the document
20 that need to be considered to put everything that's been said by the
21 witness in context. And on the face of it, this document looks as though
22 it falls into that category. The problem I think may arise in the Defence
23 case because there may be an issue over the reliability of that document.
24 All we would be concerned about at the moment would be its prima facie
25 value I think, and if it's a question of looking at the overall context,
1 then we would regard any part of that document that we needed to have
2 regard to for that purpose. But it will not be a document that's admitted
3 like a statement might be admitted in the presentation of a party's case.
4 If Mr. Visnjic wants to establish that positively as a piece of his
5 evidence beyond the point that's it's been confirmed by the witness, then
6 he will have to do that as part of the Defence case. But for the moment
7 we will look at it in the context in which it was presented to the
9 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, if I may --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
11 MS. MOELLER: -- say one more thing. That's my concern, because
12 Mr. Visnjic referred Your Honours in his cross-examination to a high
13 number of statements, and it's our understanding he cannot just tender
14 statements of witnesses in full in cross-examination without calling this
15 witness, bypassing Rule 92 and other rules that allow witness evidence to
16 go in. That's why I made this request.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
18 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: But any document will be considered by us to assist
20 in setting the evidence that the witness has given in context, and we will
21 obviously need to look at documents which have been quoted in -- by
22 Defence counsel in putting questions. And if reading more of the
23 document's necessary to understand exactly what the question was getting
24 at, then we'll need to read it. But beyond that, I don't go. If the
25 statement is to be regarded by us as a statement that was actually made by
1 the witness, then that will have to be proved as part of the Defence case.
2 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps we are now in a
5 situation that we haven't had before. I did not cross-examine the witness
6 about some things that Mr. Aleksic and Mr. Cepic examined him about.
7 Later on Ms. Moeller availed herself of the opportunity provided by her
8 re-direct, and I think that from that point of view the witness said
9 something on the basis of which perhaps I could ask for additional
10 examination, but I would like to avoid additional examination, and that is
11 why I just wanted to draw your attention to this document which was
12 already there in the cross-examination.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: So --
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] So we are speaking theoretically
15 now. I don't think this document is really important, but what happens if
16 from somebody else's cross-examination something crops up which may give
17 me the right to put some additional questions?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: You can apply to cross-examine further if those
19 following you raise issues which could be held against you, because you
20 have a right to answer anything that's said against you. But I think
21 you've identified a very practical way of dealing with the situation here
22 with, which is to invite us to look at the document in the context of the
23 re-examination as well as in the context of your cross-examination. And
24 we're content to do that, but we do -- you will appreciate that any
25 documents that the Defence use may yet be challenged by the Prosecution as
1 unauthentic until they're proved at a later stage. There may be some that
2 actually are proved in the course of the Prosecution case, but the
3 majority will have to be established in your own case.
4 You've actually identified a problem which will arise at a later
5 stage in this case when we get to the Defence case and Defence counsel are
6 cross-examining another Defence counsel's witness, then the sort of
7 situation you envisage where things might be said against you later could
8 well arise, and we'll just have to deal with any application you made to
9 avoid injustice. That's a common problem in this sort of adversarial
10 process. We'll deal with it according to the circumstances.
11 MR. VISNJIC: Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Dorovic, that completes your evidence here --
15 oh, I'm sorry, maybe it doesn't complete your evidence.
16 Mr. Cepic.
17 MR. CEPIC: I would like to deal with some different issue.
18 Actually, my learned friend, Ms. Moeller, mentioned about Exhibit P2708
19 that would be useful to tender just parts of this evidence, but I do have
20 completely opposite opinion because that is an exhibit which --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: No, she asked the opposite. She asked the Court to
22 take account of --
23 MR. CEPIC: The whole -- okay. I had completely different --
24 excellent. We completely agree about it. Thank you.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that does bring your evidence to an end,
1 Mr. Dorovic. Thank you very much for coming to the Tribunal to give
2 evidence. Whatever we make of it at the end of the day this has been an
3 extremely helpful episode in the trial. Your evidence has come to an end
4 and you're free to leave. Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask for the possibility to say
6 one sentence, please, Your Honour? Briefly? A brief sentence?
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you capable of that? Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we'll see. It is a unique
9 opportunity for me to thank General Ojdanic for not having signed the
10 draft submitted to him by General Gojovic. Had he done that, I and my
11 family would have been destroyed, but he's the one who created General
12 Gojovic, and he knows that full well. Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much, Mr. Dorovic. You're now free
14 to leave the courtroom.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: What's next, Mr. Hannis?
18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we have no further witnesses today. We
19 have a videolink scheduled for tomorrow. The witness that is scheduled
20 for Friday I'll have to advise you about later. He was supposed to travel
21 today, but I'm not informed yet as to whether or not he's arrived. We
22 will let you know as soon as we have any information about K87.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: We need to make special effort to complete a
24 videolink in one day, and that may need tailoring any proposals you have
25 at the moment since we only have I think the basic four hours tomorrow,
1 unless something changes between now and then. But on the schedule at the
2 moment we only have the basic period. On the other hand, we could have
3 got more time for you on Friday if you had wanted, but -- so you should
4 keep working.
5 I don't think -- I should have raised with Ms. Moeller there the
6 question of exhibits. I don't think there are any issues arising in
7 relation to the exhibits from the last witness, because you made your
8 position clear insofar as you didn't refer to them. If you wanted them
9 exhibited you, would have to tender them in a different way. And so your
10 position is confined to the admission of those that you referred to in the
11 course of the examination of the witness?
12 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct. Thank you.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: So there are no issues.
14 I repeat what I said yesterday, though, about any exhibits that
15 you seek to tender as part of the Defence case must be presented to us in
16 an appropriate form no later than Friday.
17 Just finally, Mr. Hannis, I raised a matter with you on Monday
18 about Clark, General Clark, and we have outstanding a question of
19 certification. I take it there's no advance on the information in
20 relation to that matter?
21 MR. HANNIS: No, there is not, Your Honour. I -- while I'm up
22 perhaps I can advise you of the --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: We have the difficulty of interpreting the footnote
24 in the -- in the response, and we still have that problem, unfortunately.
25 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. We have advanced beyond one point
1 that I know. The Rule 70 provider was interested in seeing the decision
2 concerning the other two which we now have. They are informed of that.
3 But I think they were also awaiting a decision regarding a request for
5 As a practical matter, I think we're so near the end of time in
6 our evidence that whatever the decision was, we probably are not going to
7 be able to have General Clark here, not before the 23rd of March, even if
8 we were able to resolve the pending matter regarding the US requested
10 JUDGE BONOMY: You surprise me, because you're not likely to have
11 an overload next week, are you?
12 MR. HANNIS: No, it's not because of having too much court time --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: It's availability?
14 MR. HANNIS: It's availability, yeah. And in connection with
15 that, Your Honour, I should indicate to the Court, I e-mailed Mr. Dawson
16 last night concerning - I don't know if you have been advised - concerning
17 Mr. Burns. There is a personal matter that may make him unavailable next
19 We're trying to see if there's any way we can resolve that but
20 that may not work out. We do anticipate having Mr. Phillips here
21 hopefully on Monday.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I hope you manage to resolve the problem of
23 Friday's witness, and we shall resume tomorrow at 9.00.
24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.14 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of
2 March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.