Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20260

1 Friday, 14 December 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, it's you again. Who is your next

6 witness?

7 MR. CEPIC: Good morning, Your Honour. Still

8 Lieutenant-Colonel Marinkovic.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Of course. We didn't complete him.

10 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, while we're waiting for the witness

11 to come in I want to introduce a new face at our table today. This is

12 Mr. Colin Nawrot, he will be assisting Mr. Reid and perhaps filling in for

13 him in the future.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Marinkovic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: The examination by Mr. Cepic will continue in a

19 moment. Please bear in mind that the solemn declaration to speak the

20 truth which you gave yesterday continues to apply to your evidence until

21 it's complete.

22 Mr. Cepic.

23 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 20261

1 Examination by Mr. Cepic: [Continued]

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Lieutenant-Colonel.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. Have you had a rest?

5 A. Yes, I have.

6 Q. That's good then. I'll take up where I left off yesterday you

7 explained to us the use of various frequencies, could you tell me about

8 the chains of command, how did that function.

9 A. Well, it functioned in the following way, the commander of the

10 combat unit, from my brigade --

11 Q. Let's just make this brief.

12 A. He was in the command of the units of the army, the commander of

13 MUP commanded the units of MUP.

14 Q. Thank you. It's not quite clear in the transcript. Were the

15 chains of command separate?

16 A. Yes, obviously.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. CEPIC: Could we have on our screens 5D931, please.

19 [Interpretation] Your Honours, just before we take a look at this

20 exhibit, page 2, please, line 8, or rather, page 2, line 8, once again not

21 a clear answer, so can we listen to the tape or -- so that we can specify

22 what the witness actually said, not to have to repeat the question again.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm in no doubt that this witness has said that

24 there are two separate chains of command for MUP and VJ, and that was his

25 position yesterday evening as well.

Page 20262

1 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, can you see the document on our screens?

3 A. Yes, I can.

4 Q. Did you see this kind of document, or rather, were you aware of

5 the contents of this document?

6 A. I think I was at the point in time when it was distributed to us

7 by the commander.

8 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, what was the purpose of this and similar

9 documents, similar orders?

10 A. The purpose of this order was that the senior officers of the unit

11 should become more serious or preventive in actual fact. According to our

12 rules and regulations, instructions, and laws, we were otherwise bound in

13 general terms to respect and apply the provisions of international war

14 law, and this was just one, if I can put it this way, preventive order.

15 Q. Thank you. Lieutenant-Colonel, did you perhaps -- were you

16 perhaps present in some actions during the war?

17 A. In certain actions, yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Was there an example in which these actions came

19 across civilians?

20 A. Yes, we came across civilians on a number of occasions.

21 Q. Do you happen to remember a specific example that you could give

22 us?

23 A. Well, I have a number of examples that I remember, but the most --

24 the one that left the greatest impression on me was refugees escaping in

25 the village of Banja, refugee camp near Banja, that is east of Malisevo

Page 20263

1 when along the fringes of the forest, in my rough estimation some thousand

2 people gathered, women and children, of course. And among them, quite

3 openly, members of the KLA moved around amongst them. They were armed and

4 wearing uniforms.

5 Q. Could you tell me when that was?

6 A. That was at the beginning of the NATO aggression, that is to say

7 at the end of March 1999.

8 Q. Thank you. At the time, did the unit continue to advance?

9 A. The unit did not continue to advance, but it stopped there. It

10 was not provoked by the presence of the KLA because they were mixed up

11 with the population and we -- they reported about what they found, and the

12 order arrived that the unit should go back to its area of deployment.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. CEPIC: Could we have in e-court system 5D946, please.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel, do you recognise this

16 document, whose it is?

17 A. Well, looking at the heading, I see that it's a document from my

18 own brigade.

19 MR. CEPIC: Could we have count 5, please, second page in B/C/S,

20 probably in English also.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Would you explain item 5, please, especially the

22 sentence where it says that the civilians were sent back and that

23 activities have been intensified.

24 A. Yes. Since the terrorists jeopardized part of the road running

25 from Pristina to Pec, from Komorane to Lapusnik, so on that side where the

Page 20264

1 villages are mentioned here, that's where an action was executed and they

2 were pushed back to Mount Drenica. And during their withdrawal with them,

3 they took the civilian population from the villages mentioned here.

4 Q. What did they need the civilian population for?

5 A. The civilian population always, at all times whenever we came

6 across a situation like that, they used as protection against us; and they

7 led the population outside villages with them when they had no other

8 protection, means of protection, they took them to the mountains or to the

9 forest because they knew that we wouldn't go into action when the

10 civilians were present.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. Of course if I might be allowed to add, we wrote here that the

13 civilians went back although we were at the outskirts of those villages.

14 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant-Colonel.

15 MR. CEPIC: Could we have 5D949, please, count 5, please.

16 Q. [Interpretation] While we're waiting, can you see the heading of

17 this document?

18 A. Yes, I've read it.

19 Q. Would you take a look at item 5 now, please.

20 A. Yes, I have read it.

21 Q. Could you tell me whether of this the basic tactics employed by

22 the Siptar terrorist unit, ambush actions?

23 A. Well, one of their tactics, they apply guerilla tactics and put up

24 ambushes and mines and explosive devices along the roads that they

25 expected people to be moving, or rather, the organs of the state to be

Page 20265

1 moving.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. CEPIC: Could we have 5D947, please. 5D947.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel, is this a document from your

5 brigade again?

6 A. Yes, this is a document from my brigade.

7 Q. Could you take a look at item 3.2, please, the second paragraph

8 there.

9 A. Yes, I read it.

10 Q. What does the M-77 uniform mean? What kind of uniform was that?

11 A. The M-77 uniforms were olive-green uniforms of the type worn by

12 the JNA and the Territorial Defence in earlier years, until the new

13 uniform had been introduced with the M-89 camouflage pattern. And it was

14 also used by the terrorists because they were stray uniforms that had been

15 left over from the Territorial Defence of the day. And we could see that

16 personally in -- during combat and also on pictures that we came across or

17 footage or the material that we found in their base.

18 Q. Thank you. Lieutenant-Colonel, Witness Shukri Gerxhaliu

19 testified before this Chamber and in his testimony, he stressed that in

20 the village of Donja Sudimlje on the 31st of May, people were killed, or

21 rather, nine members of the Gerxhaliu family were killed. Do you know

22 anything about that, Donja Sudimlje and the date is the 31st of May?

23 A. Yes, I am familiar with it that. I know that the incident took

24 place.

25 Q. Could you explain to us what actually happened, what your

Page 20266

1 knowledge of that is?

2 A. Well, I received information that something had happened, or

3 rather, that there had been a killing in the village of Donje Sudimlje,

4 and I reported to my commander about that and told him that I would

5 investigate what had happened. I went to the investigating judge of the

6 military wartime court of the Pristina Corps --

7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would like to object about this one.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

9 MR. HANNIS: This is nothing that was noticed in the 65 ter

10 summary for this witness.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we said we'd describe the

13 work of the security organs, and this is an example of how they worked,

14 how they functioned, and what they did, their concrete activities. He's

15 not a troop officer. He deals with security, and we did inform the other

16 side what the remit and competencies of the security organs were, what

17 they actually did.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: It's impossible for the Prosecution to be prepared

19 for this if you haven't indicated the date or place of the event that

20 you're going to be leading evidence on. Since you haven't intimated it,

21 move on to something else, please.

22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, did you have a military police company within

24 your composition?

25 A. Yes, during the war I did have a military police company of a

Page 20267

1 reserve force.

2 Q. Thank you. And what was the basic task of the military police

3 company?

4 A. The basic task of the military police company was to provide

5 security for the command post and rear command post, to provide security

6 for the commander while stationary and while on the move, and the

7 encryption station as well, protection and security for the encryption

8 station, so that would be basically what we did.

9 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me now --

10 MR. CEPIC: May I continue, Your Honour?


12 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Could you explain to me, Lieutenant-Colonel, how

14 the areas of deployment of the units were secured?

15 A. As I've already said, that the command post was secured by the

16 military police units or my company of the military police unit, the units

17 secured -- had their own security for their area of deployment. They

18 would set up guards and reporting stations, and that's how they provided

19 combat security.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. CEPIC: Could we have 5D1288, please, 5D.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Then, Colonel, this is a document from your

23 brigade?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 MR. CEPIC: Could we have count 12, please.

Page 20268

1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, with regard to this document I have one

2 objection. In the English translation at the bottom of line 6 it says

3 there's a line missing, and it appears that's because in the B/C/S the

4 copy that we have is cut off. I don't know what it says, but it talks

5 about: "Eliminate the shortcomings and take concrete measures aimed at

6 ..." And that's what's missing. That could be something significant for

7 us.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Which paragraph is this?

9 MR. HANNIS: It's paragraph 6 in the English. You will see right

10 before number 7 it says "line missing."

11 JUDGE BONOMY: We're on the wrong page.

12 MR. HANNIS: If you look at the B/C/S, it's at the very bottom of

13 page 1 it appears that when this Xerox copy was made, it didn't catch the

14 last line because item number 7 starts at the top of the second page.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: You should endeavour with the witness to complete

16 paragraph 6 if you can, Mr. Cepic.

17 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I will try to do my best.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel, will you please have a look

19 at paragraph 6. This is not what I was meaning to ask you about, but just

20 to dispel any doubts. Can you explain what this is in relation to, this

21 paragraph.

22 A. The document is about security and stepping up combat-readiness --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you help us by telling us what's missing from

24 the end of paragraph 6?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can assume, based on the overall

Page 20269

1 context, the chiefs of combat arms will be engaged as needed and as

2 planned as subordinated units to give expert assistance, eliminate the

3 shortcomings and take concrete measures aimed at strengthening, stepping

4 up combat-readiness, I assume that's what's missing because that's what

5 the whole document is about.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 Mr. Cepic.

8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Could we have second page in B/C/S and count 12, please.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel, do you see item 12, it's

11 right in front of you. Is this your explanation in relation to the

12 security regime in the deployment area? Is your explanation confirmed by

13 this item?

14 A. Yes, that's precisely what this item is addressing.

15 Q. All right. Will you please now explain about outside the

16 deployment area, the spaces in between, as it were, were you in charge of

17 controlling those areas?

18 A. No. Outside the deployment areas there were other state bodies

19 that were responsible, the MUP, civil defence, and civil protection.

20 Q. Can you tell me if your unit had any check-points?

21 A. No, my unit had none.

22 Q. And do you perhaps know, given your position, what the

23 jurisdiction was over so-called mixed check-points?

24 A. Yes. Within the area of deployment of my unit, there was such a

25 mixed check-point on the way into Pristina from the direction of Kosovo

Page 20270

1 Polje, but it wasn't manned by my unit but rather by the 52nd Military

2 Police Battalion and a component of the MUP who were there at the

3 check-point. The responsibility of the military policemen who were

4 manning the check-point was to inspect incoming military traffic and

5 military personnel passing through. When I say "military personnel," I

6 mean officers, ordinary soldiers, and any other corps members.

7 Q. What about anyone else apart from the military, were the military

8 policemen there in charge of inspecting those persons too?

9 A. No, they weren't.

10 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, did you have a team in your brigade that was

11 in charge of clearing the terrain, sanitization?

12 A. As far as I remember, there was a sanitization team as we called

13 it.

14 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues]... 5D937.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel, is this a document produced

16 by your brigade?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 MR. CEPIC: Could we have the second page.

19 Q. [Interpretation] As we're waiting for page 2 to come up, will you

20 tell me if perhaps you know who was in charge of the sanitization, which

21 body?

22 A. The same unit that was in charge of overall combat operations.

23 Q. All right. We have a table there of sanitization as carried out.

24 What are these abbreviations about, VJ MUP CZ?

25 A. Yes, in charge of sanitization, VJ Ministry of the Interior or

Page 20271

1 civil protection. As we can tell based on the face of this document, it

2 was civil protection and the people who were carrying out the sanitization

3 in this particular area of this responsibility at the time.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Where do we see that on the document?

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the table right in the

7 middle.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: In the "Carried out by ..." heading. Thank you.

9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.

10 Q. What about sanitization in terms of animal remains and other types

11 of toxic waste on the ground?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 MR. CEPIC: May I continue, Your Honour?


15 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

16 Could we have 5D934, please.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel, you see the document in front

18 of you. Was the document produced by your brigade?

19 A. Yes, it was.

20 MR. CEPIC: Could we have count 3, please.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Cepic please be

22 asked to speak up a little. Thank you.

23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Does this item confirm what you just said?

25 A. Yes, it does.

Page 20272

1 MR. CEPIC: I apologise to interpreters and I will follow your

2 instructions.

3 Q. [Interpretation] We see the second half of item 3, military and

4 judicial organs are invited to launch possible investigations. All right,

5 in a nutshell you explained that already so now we're free to move on to

6 something else.

7 Lieutenant-Colonel, another topic, volunteers, did your unit take

8 in any volunteers?

9 A. Yes, during the war some were.

10 Q. What was their status after being received into the unit?

11 A. The same status as all the other soldiers who were in that unit,

12 they were volunteers in terms of the way they joined; but once they were

13 part of the unit they were just ordinary soldiers like everybody else.

14 MR. CEPIC: Could we have 5D936, please.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel, is this a document produced

16 by your brigade?

17 A. Yes, it was.

18 Q. Can you tell me if you encountered any situations where you had to

19 turn away certain persons who volunteered to join the unit?

20 A. Yes, there were a number of situations like that. They were first

21 screened and vetted at recruitment centres, and then they would go to

22 someone to express their desire to set up their own unit, a volunteers'

23 unit as it were. We made no allowances for that. Our personnel sector

24 would send them on an individual basis to other units in the brigade. I

25 once had occasion to turn some of them away and send them back where they

Page 20273

1 came from, in this case the recruitment centre in Belgrade because they

2 refused to be that type of soldiers.

3 Q. Was a military territorial detachment resubordinated to the

4 brigade at a later stage?

5 A. Yes. I don't know when exactly resubordinated from the beginning

6 of the war, the 54th Military Territorial Detachment, yes, they were,

7 Vucitrn.

8 Q. Where were they deployed?

9 A. My brigade is an armoured brigade. We were always short of

10 infantry, so they were deployed together with a battalion from the 15th

11 Armoured Brigade in the general Vucitrn area, both to the north and to the

12 south of the area.

13 Q. Were they securing a facility or a building in the town of Vucitrn

14 itself?

15 A. As far as I know, they weren't in Vucitrn itself, they were

16 deployed around it.

17 Q. Thank you. Lieutenant-Colonel, did the brigade suffer any losses?

18 A. Yes, both in 1998 and in 1999.

19 Q. How many people came to grief, officers and ordinary soldiers?

20 A. In 1998 there were seven of us and in 1999, 14.

21 Q. What were most of the losses caused by?

22 A. Most of the losses were caused by terrorist activity in the way

23 that I've already described.

24 Q. Thank you. Lieutenant-Colonel, were any perpetrators of crimes

25 prosecuted in your unit, were there any crimes to begin with?

Page 20274

1 A. Yes, there were.

2 Q. Did you track down those people and did you prosecute them, did

3 you press charges?

4 A. Every time we found that a crime had occurred, we pressed charges.

5 Q. What about those crimes that are normally deemed most serious, for

6 example, violations of humanitarian law?

7 A. No, there were none of those as far as I know.

8 Q. What sort of crime was prosecuted? What was the type of crime

9 that you normally came across?

10 A. For the most part crimes against property, aggravated theft,

11 theft, motor vehicles that were seized, and typical military violations

12 such as desertion, violations of military discipline.

13 Q. What I want to know is crimes against property.

14 A. Fine.

15 Q. Can you give us a couple of names, by names I mean people you

16 prosecuted for theft for seizing vehicles belonging to other persons, that

17 sort of thing.

18 A. This all happened quite a long time ago. I'll do my best to

19 remember a couple of names for you. There was an NCO sergeant first class

20 Fuad Musinovic, I think, warrant officer Stevan Radic, warrant officer

21 Kordic; I can't remember his first name. I don't think I can remember

22 anyone else but there is a list of persons who were prosecuted for these

23 crimes, it's in the archives of the military court. I'm not sure in which

24 file you can find members of my brigade, but it should be there.

25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in General Gojovic's

Page 20275

1 lists, and those are marked P954, some of those names are under number 4,

2 then also under number 30; and in P955, aggravated theft, 146 and 147, two

3 officers from the 15th Brigade are listed.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, do you know General Lazarevic?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. How long have you known him for?

9 A. Since 1993. At that time he became my commander at the

10 communications regiment.

11 Q. Can you tell us something about General Lazarevic as a person and

12 an officer?

13 A. I can tell you that he was and still is a model, my personal model

14 to which I aspire in terms of military career and human qualities.

15 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, you spent the entire period of war in the

16 territory of Kosovo?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know anything about the sons of General Lazarevic, whether

19 they were members of the army?

20 A. Yes. I know that the oldest and middle son were members of the

21 army, and I know both of them personally.

22 Q. What status did the two of them have?

23 A. As far as I am aware, they had the status of soldiers, troops in

24 the Army of Yugoslavia.

25 Q. Did they have any sort of privileges? Were they privileged in any

Page 20276

1 way?

2 A. As far as I'm aware, no.

3 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. That was my last and final --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one moment before you sit down.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, we've had a chance to look at the prior

7 evidence in relation to the incident involving the Gerxhaliu familiar that

8 was referred to. It is part of the Prosecution case. I don't think it

9 would really be in the interests of justice to maintain that --

10 MR. HANNIS: Well, that's the precise nature of my objection,

11 though, Your Honour. If it's to confront a Prosecution witness and an

12 incident presented by the Prosecution, that's the very most important kind

13 of thing we should receive note of because when I give lists what I'm

14 going to use in my cross-examination, if I don't know he's going to talk

15 about that incident I don't look at documents relating to that or that

16 prior witness's testimony.


18 MR. HANNIS: So at the very least, Your Honour, I would need more

19 time to address that if you're going to allow that.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that entirely, on the other hand it's

21 one of these matters that is likely to arise at some stage in a Defence

22 case, and therefore the basic point of notice in principle doesn't arise.

23 It's just a practical technical issue which we recognise and obviously if

24 a remedy is necessary and if the witness has to come back, then we would

25 accommodate that in the circumstances.

Page 20277

1 But, Mr. Cepic, I think I was precipitate in preventing you from

2 dealing with that issue, but you should bear in mind that where the

3 Prosecution had led evidence about a specific event and you have a witness

4 who's going to deal with that event and it's not immediately obvious that

5 he will be dealing with it, then specific notice ought to be given to the

6 Prosecution that that will arise in the course of the evidence. But on

7 this occasion we will re-consider the decision we made earlier and allow

8 you to go into that issue with the witness.

9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would like

10 to refer you to an example in practice, how we were notified by the

11 Prosecution concerning the testimony of witnesses K-54 and K-82; later on

12 it turned out that they were going to testify about some matters. Thank

13 you.

14 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, I mentioned earlier and now I would like you

15 to explain to us the following: Prosecution witness Shukri Gerxhaliu in

16 his statement testified about an incident which happened on the 31st of

17 May, 1999, in a village called Donje Sudimlje. Will you please tell us

18 what you personally know, what you personally experienced about what

19 happened there?

20 A. I came to the point where I was saying that I informed my

21 commander about what I knew, and then I went to an investigative judge of

22 the military court within our corps and reported what I knew. He ordered

23 that an investigation be launched. We established a team comprising two

24 military policemen. My clerk, myself, and a crime technician from the

25 52nd Battalion of the military police as well as crime technician from the

Page 20278

1 Vucitrn internal affairs department. I think it was internal affairs

2 department. We went to Donje Sudimlje and we came to the house of the

3 Gerxhaliu family, outside of that house. There were residents, local

4 residents in the village. The investigative judge was conducting his

5 work, collecting information from the residents who appeared there on the

6 spot and who spoke Serbian. I, for my part, talked to two women in

7 Albanian.

8 Q. Did you enter the house?

9 A. Yes. The judge ordered us to enter the house.

10 Q. Did you come across any traces there, corpses?

11 A. We did not come across any corpses, and we had had some

12 information that we gathered when talking to these people and when

13 collecting information, the people that we met outside of the gate, that's

14 what I mean. As for the traces, there were many of them in the house as

15 well as outside the house. There was coagulated blood in the courtyard

16 and there were traces of murder, traces indicated that there had been a

17 murder committed in the house. The traces consisted of bloody spots on

18 the walls, on bed linen, and we also found traces of bullets that had been

19 fired, casings. The most numerous ones were of 7.62-millimetre calibre,

20 Chinese manufacture with grey casings, and there were several holes on the

21 walls produced by bullets. The people whom we had found in the village

22 explained to us that the corpses had been buried in the village graveyard,

23 that the residents buried them there.

24 Q. The investigative team, did they proceed to the graveyard later

25 on?

Page 20279

1 A. I explained to the investigative judge, as I have spoken to the

2 women previously, I told the judge that the women told me that in the

3 upper part of the village we could come across the members of the KLA and

4 that it wasn't safe to proceed further on. Since the judge was in charge

5 of the investigation, I told him about this information and I asked him

6 whether he wanted us to move on, to go further, and he ordered us to move

7 towards the graveyard.

8 Q. Was there an incident on your way to the graveyard?

9 A. Yes. As the team set out, after some 200 metres very intense fire

10 was opened in our direction from this school which was a large building in

11 that village. They opened fire from infantry weapons and machine-guns.

12 Since the Pinzgauer vehicle from my military police company was heading

13 the column, the vehicle was damaged in the course of that attack and it

14 remained in the village. A crime technician from the internal affairs

15 department in Vucitrn was wounded in the hand. Warrant officer,

16 Jovasevic, crime technician from the 52nd Battalion of the military police

17 lost his pistol as they were withdrawing. In other words, they barely

18 managed to survive that ambush. Then the investigative judge ordered us

19 to return to Pristina, saying that the investigation was completed,

20 on-site investigation was completed.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. If I may add, we wanted to come on the following day to retrieve

23 the vehicle that had been damaged; however, when we came there the vehicle

24 was gone and we supposed that the KLA members had taken it.

25 Q. Will you tell me what date it was when you conducted that on-site

Page 20280

1 investigation?

2 A. I think it was in early June, I think the 5th of June.

3 Q. Thank you. Lieutenant-Colonel, thank you very much. Those were

4 my questions.

5 A. Thank you.

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marinkovic, why did you think this was a matter

8 for the military to investigate?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A part of my unit was located in an

10 area above the village, and we didn't want to leave any stone unturned.

11 We didn't want to leave anything to chance.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Had there already been a MUP investigation?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of that.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

15 You'll now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor, Mr. Hannis --

16 sorry, Mr. Ivetic.

17 MR. IVETIC: I will be brief, but I do have some cross for this

18 witness.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

20 Q. Good day Lieutenant-Colonel Marinkovic, my name is Dan Ivetic and

21 I am one of the Defence attorneys for Sreten Lukic. Today I'll have just

22 some brief questions for you and would therefore ask you to pay close

23 attention to my questions, and if they're not clear to you please ask me

24 to repeat them.

25 Now, in your direct examination -- pardon me. In your direct

Page 20281

1 examination you talked about a variety of anti-terrorist actions or combat

2 that you were involved in. Were there anti-terrorist actions undertaken

3 by your brigade or any other VJ units in -- near or surrounding your area

4 of responsibility that were undertaken without the utilisation of MUP

5 forces or without the participation of MUP forces?

6 A. There were such actions, yes.

7 Q. You mentioned the 54th Military Territorial Detachment as being

8 subordinated to you or your brigade. Were there other military

9 territorial detachments in or near your zone of deployment or

10 responsibility that were not subordinated to your brigade?

11 A. There were other military territorial detachments in the territory

12 of Kosovo and Metohija. Every military department, as far as I know, had

13 military territorial detachments.

14 Q. If we could focus in the zone of responsibility of your brigade in

15 particular, do you know if there were any other military territorial

16 detachments of any nature within that particular confined area?

17 A. There were, yes, but they were not resubordinated to my brigade as

18 far as I'm aware.

19 Q. Do you recall how many there were and if you know any of their

20 numerical designations?

21 A. I don't remember how many there were. Well, I can't tell you,

22 perhaps the 115th Territorial Detachment is from Kosovo Polje area, I

23 don't know, either it was 115th or 113th, I know it was a three-digit

24 number.

25 Q. Do you recall if there was the 174th in addition to the 115th

Page 20282

1 Military Territorial Detachment?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. I don't think I have any further questions

4 for you.

5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

7 Mr. Hannis.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:

9 Q. Good morning, Lieutenant-Colonel. I wanted to ask you a few

10 questions about your background prior to 1998. I understand you began

11 active service in the VJ in 1990. Can you tell us what your first job or

12 first duty was at that time?

13 A. My first duty was commander of telephone and teleprinter platoon

14 in the communications regiment, in the Skopje garrison.

15 Q. And from there where did you go?

16 A. During my stay in Skopje, I became commander of the 1st Platoon in

17 the radio relay company of the same unit; and then in 1992, I was

18 transferred with my unit to the Nis garrison when Macedonia seceded,

19 separated itself, from the rest of Yugoslavia.

20 Q. When did you first become engaged in security work in the army?

21 A. In 1997 I was admitted into the security service.

22 Q. As what? As an operative?

23 A. Yes. I became chief of security in the 309th Communications

24 Regiment, chief of security organ, that's the formal title in our army.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I had not realized, your active service did not

Page 20283

1 begin until 1990; is that what you said?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, in 1990 I graduated from

3 the military academy.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I hate to tell you what's noted here as your date

5 of birth. I'm just trying to see in the transcript what was said

6 yesterday. Yes, your date of birth was given yesterday as the 23rd of

7 April, 1947. I did at the time think that you were very well-preserved

8 for your year.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there's a mistake

10 here in the name of my unit. It's not 309th, but rather 319th

11 Communications Regiment.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: But you were born in Vrbovo, I take it?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, those are not my details.

14 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: It is -- it's our previous witness I'm again

16 confusing you with. I'm very sorry about that, sorry; and I see now -- if

17 you look at the transcript 20132 -- Ah, yes, I have it now. Thank you

18 very much.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

21 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, what work have you been engaged in since 1999

22 when the war ended? You're still active-duty I take it?

23 A. Yes. You are interested in the time-period after the war, after

24 1999, right?

25 Q. Yes, very briefly.

Page 20284

1 A. Yes. Together with my unit, I was transferred to Prokuplje

2 garrison, where I served at the same position, chief of security organ in

3 the 15th Armoured Brigade, I stayed there for a while.

4 Q. Until when?

5 A. Until 2000, sometime in June 2000 or July, when I went to the

6 department, security department of the Pristina Corps.

7 Q. And how long did you stay there?

8 A. I stayed there until January 2001.

9 Q. And between January 2001 and today?

10 A. Between January 2001 and today, I worked for a year in an expert

11 team of the General Staff for cooperation with The Hague Tribunal, and

12 afterwards in the administration for security of the General Staff of the

13 army in Belgrade. And afterwards, I went for additional training to the

14 command staff school for two years, and now I'm a teacher at the school

15 centre for security.

16 Q. Now, is that the body that you talked about for cooperation with

17 The Hague Tribunal, is that the Commission For Cooperation that was

18 established by General Pavkovic when he was Chief of the General Staff?

19 A. I don't know who established it or who had the right, to be quite

20 frank, to set it up; but there was an establishment book appointing me to

21 that particular work post.

22 Q. Do you know how you got appointed to that post, did someone

23 contact you in advance and interview you or tell you you were being

24 considered? How did that come about?

25 A. As every time, whenever I was reassigned, I received an order

Page 20285

1 saying that I was being reassigned to another post for the requirements of

2 the service in question.

3 Q. And from whom did this particular order come from, if you recall?

4 A. At the time I was a lieutenant-colonel by rank. Now, I can't

5 remember which service it was whose job it was to compile that order, but

6 it's all regulated in the book.

7 Q. Do you know if General Lazarevic recommended you for that?

8 A. I don't really know.

9 Q. When were you promoted to lieutenant-colonel?

10 A. I received the rank of lieutenant-colonel, I think in April 2001.

11 Q. Okay. At the age of 33?

12 A. Yes, I was promoted ahead of time twice.

13 Q. And what was the nature of your work as an expert for this

14 commission? What did you do exactly? Did you gather documents? Did you

15 interview people? What were your tasks?

16 A. As I was in the analytical department of that team, my tasks were

17 mostly to do with studying all the documents to see whether they were

18 complete and to distribute those same documents when required by the

19 centre for cooperation. I also took part in preparing the documents in

20 order for them to be sent off.

21 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that my learned

22 friend, Mr. Hannis, is getting far away from the subject in hand, and if

23 we're discussing 2001 or 2002 or whatever year after that, I don't think

24 it's going to take us anywhere. Thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: This -- the subject here is not 2001 or 2002, but

Page 20286

1 how the documents from 1998 and 1999 were treated before they were sent to

2 the Office of the Prosecutor, and indeed there is the other subject of the

3 great difficulty that the Office of the Prosecutor did have in securing a

4 great many of the documents that are relevant in the case. So this is a

5 relevant issue for this trial.

6 Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, you said that you took part in preparing the

9 documents in order for them to be sent off. What kind of work did -- what

10 kind of work required a lieutenant-colonel to prepare the documents for

11 them to be sent off? That sounds more like a job for a private clerk.

12 What were you doing to prepare these documents?

13 A. Well, quite simply, the documents that were requested, we would

14 search for them in the archives, find them, copy them, attach a letter to

15 them, and send them on to the centre. A private clerk cannot do that kind

16 of work.

17 Q. Why not? Why can't a private clerk search the archives and find

18 documents? It's not that complicated, is it?

19 A. Well, it's probably not that complicated, but I don't think he

20 could.

21 Q. And there were times when you couldn't find some of the documents

22 requested by The Hague Tribunal, correct?

23 A. Quite possibly, but as I said I was in the analytical department.

24 There were other departments who, in concrete terms, went to look for the

25 documents.

Page 20287

1 Q. All right. Let's move on to something else. You were in the

2 security - what's the term I should use? - security administration of the

3 army or is it a department? What's the correct name?

4 A. I was a clerk in the security department, in one of the sectors of

5 the security administration.

6 Q. Okay. And in 19 -- from July 1998 to the end of the war in June

7 1999, who was your immediate superior? To whom did you report?

8 A. My immediate superior was the brigade commander, and in the

9 professional sense the chief of the security sector of the corps.

10 Q. Okay, yeah. Could you explain about that a little bit. We've

11 heard from some other witnesses that in the security sector or the

12 security service, security administration, that you actually report up two

13 chains. One is to the commander of the brigade, but don't you also report

14 separately through the security channels? Isn't that how it worked?

15 A. Directly as the security organs in the brigade, we were

16 subordinated to the brigade commander. Now, for all questions, and we

17 took part in the work of the brigade command, but for all questions that

18 which to security, the security of the brigade, of the members of the

19 brigade, we would report to the brigade commander about that and the chief

20 of security of the corps. Now, there was certain issues since we had

21 authorisation to apply certain methods, secret methods, then the brigade

22 commander did not know about those things; so about those things and other

23 information we would report to the chief of security in the corps, and

24 that was the rule regulated by the rules.

25 Q. And the chief of security in the corps at the time was who?

Page 20288

1 A. The chief of security of the corps in 1998 and 1999 was

2 Colonel Momir Stojanovic.

3 Q. Did you send him written reports or was it only oral reports or

4 was it both?

5 A. Both.

6 Q. And how often would you report to him in the last half of 1998 and

7 the first half of 1999? Was it once a day? Once a week?

8 A. I would report to him twice a day, and if there were any events

9 that had taken place then more than that, depending on urgency, on a

10 need-to-know basis.

11 Q. And where in the VJ archives would your reports, those kind of

12 reports, be kept?

13 A. I know that all my operative documents, as a rule at the beginning

14 of the war, I would destroy and take with me only the mobilisation

15 documents. Now, where the documents from the sector are, I don't know,

16 and what way they were dealt with I really can't say. I think they were

17 duty-bound to destroy their documents too at the beginning of the war.

18 Q. What about documents generated during the war?

19 A. Documents generated during the war -- well, I didn't find them in

20 the corps when I took over my post in 2000. Quite possibly they exist

21 somewhere in the archives in Belgrade, but I really don't know about that.

22 Q. And you didn't have occasion to look for them or come across them

23 when you were working as an expert for the Commission For Cooperation with

24 The Hague Tribunal, did you?

25 A. No, I did not, and I've told you that I did not deal with that. I

Page 20289

1 told you what the team dealt with in principle. I was in the analytical

2 department and the documents arrived in my department and then we

3 forwarded them on to the centre, as I explained.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: What I didn't understand in that explanation was

5 what you do in the analytical department, once you had made it clear you

6 don't search for the documents.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As there were a number of

8 departments, our department was the department where the collected

9 documents arrived pursuant to a request from this Tribunal, or rather, the

10 centre who sent the request on to us. So we would look at the numbers,

11 compare them, whether they were the right documents and right attachment

12 letters, and then send them off to the centre for cooperation.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Mr. Hannis.

15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. In 1998 and 1999 when you were working in security in the 15th

17 Armoured Brigade, how many people worked directly for you?

18 A. Well, establishment-wise my clerk and myself, but as the situation

19 became more complex in Kosovo we would be helped out from the security

20 organs of the army who sent us their operatives in order to strengthen the

21 combat groups and not to leave anything to chance so that we were better

22 informed that way.

23 Q. Okay. At most, what was the highest number then of people you had

24 working for you in, let's say, 1999 when additional operatives were sent

25 to help with the combat groups?

Page 20290

1 A. Let's differentiate between two periods, one is in 1999 before the

2 war when the operatives were sent to help out, and in each of the three or

3 four combat groups, depending on the situation when they were formed; and

4 in 1999 again, I was replenished with my own establishment security organs

5 from the reserve force.

6 Q. Okay. Can you give us the two numbers for those different

7 periods?

8 A. Well, for the first period there were up to six of us, and during

9 the war, let me just remember, there were eight of us. I think there were

10 eight of us.

11 Q. What kind of work did these operatives do then? Are they wearing

12 military uniform or are they wearing civilian clothes and going out and

13 gathering intelligence? What did they do in general terms?

14 A. We were all in uniforms during the war, and we had our operative

15 positions in the units. We would gather all the information that had to

16 do with jeopardizing security in the units, whether from the unit or from

17 outside towards the unit.

18 Q. How about in --

19 A. And --

20 Q. I'm sorry --

21 A. Please go ahead.

22 Q. I didn't mean to cut you off if you had something more to say on

23 that.

24 A. No, that's fine.

25 Q. How about in the first part of 1999 before the war started, did

Page 20291

1 they all wear uniforms then or did they do their work in civilian clothes

2 sometimes?

3 A. They mostly wore uniforms, and my clerk and myself would wear

4 civilian clothes from time to time as well because of the nature of the

5 business.

6 Q. And the nature of the business is such that sometimes you're going

7 out and talking to civilians and you want to be wearing civilian clothes,

8 not to be recognised as being in the army, correct?

9 A. Yes, sometimes there was the need to talk to civilians too in

10 order to gather information.

11 Q. Your civilian sources that you got information from, did you pay

12 them or did they just volunteer information? What was the nature of that

13 relationship in your intelligence gathering?

14 A. I never paid a single civilian for any intelligence. Quite

15 simply, there were people who had enough consciousness security-wise, saw

16 that there were problems, and wanted to help and convey that to the state

17 organs.

18 Q. And it's the nature of that kind of work, isn't it, that sometimes

19 you are given misinformation or disinformation by persons who have

20 interests contrary to your own, correct?

21 A. Of course, there were quite a lot of people who wanted to plant

22 disinformation on us.

23 Q. I just want to ask you about a couple of the exhibits that

24 Mr. Cepic showed you or that were on the list to be used with you. One of

25 them you mentioned the incident where you -- you and your driver were

Page 20292

1 attacked on the road I think between Podujevo and Pristina when your car

2 was shot up. Do you recall that one?

3 A. Yes, I do, I recall it very well.

4 Q. It said in that report that you were in a civilian vehicle with

5 civilian tags and you were wearing civilian clothes, that you had come

6 back from a meeting of something that is listed as the OUP is the English

7 acronym. Can you tell us what that was?

8 A. The Department of Internal Affairs.

9 Q. And was that meeting to share intelligence?

10 A. Yes. The purpose of that meeting was to exchange information

11 about the territory and that was one of four meetings that I had in the

12 space of the four days pursuant to an order from my superior, the chief of

13 security.

14 Q. Okay. You worked in communications. I think you told us -- it

15 was translated in English as a signalsman. Is there any substantive

16 difference or distinction between that term "signalsman"

17 or "communications officer"? Are those basically the same thing or is

18 there some distinction?

19 A. If you mean liaison officers which were established when the OSCE

20 mission came and officers in the signals part of the army, then there is a

21 difference.

22 Q. No, I wasn't talking about the liaison with the OSCE. Maybe it's

23 just we use the same terms somewhat interchangeably in English. I take it

24 then that you mean -- you worked in communications, for example, radio

25 communications, telegraphic communications, all manner of communications,

Page 20293

1 right?

2 A. Yes, yes. I was the officer there, communications officer in the

3 military specialty.

4 Q. And it's common practice, isn't it, Lieutenant-Colonel, for in the

5 military to use code-names or call-signs to identify various units or

6 organs for purposes of, to some extent, protecting the identity of a unit

7 when you're communicating, correct?

8 A. In the army, yes, there is this communication practice which has

9 the highest level of military secret where that exists and where they are

10 listed, yes.

11 Q. Do you recall in 1998 and/or 1999 what code-name or call-signs

12 were connected with the 15th Armoured Brigade?

13 A. The call-sign in communications is composed of two parts. One

14 part is the name and the second part is the identification number of the

15 officer, or rather, the person who is going to respond when you call him

16 up using that call-sign. So, for example, in the brigade, the brigade I

17 was in the identification number was Grom, and my number was 242. So for

18 somebody to respond when you call him up with the call-sign, you have to

19 say Grom, G-r-o-m, and 242, and I would come up.

20 Q. Okay. And the commander of the brigade was Colonel Cirkovic?

21 A. That's right, the -- Colonel Cirkovic, Mladen Cirkovic was the

22 head of the 15th Armoured Brigade.

23 Q. Do you recall what his call-sign was in 1999?

24 A. I might be wrong, but it was Grom 215. I'm not sure about that

25 number, whether it was 215 that was his number, but it was changed from

Page 20294

1 time to time.

2 Q. Do you recall the unit, the 15th or subordinate units of the 15th

3 Armoured Brigade, using code-name or call-sign Goles, G-o-l-e-s with the

4 full banana?

5 A. That is possible as far as 1998 goes, but I really can't remember.

6 Q. Do you recall what name was used by the Pristina Corps in either

7 1998 or 1999?

8 A. The name that was used during one period was Pastrik. It was

9 changed in 1998 and 1999, but I can't quite remember.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. HANNIS: Could we show the witness Exhibit P1052.

12 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, there are three pages of a document that's

13 called: "Communications station work-plan." If you could look at the

14 first page here. There's no reference to the 15th -- I'm sorry, let me

15 see which one we've got up.

16 MR. HANNIS: The B/C/S doesn't match the English page we've got on

17 the screen so if we could go one more.

18 Q. Colonel, have you seen these kind of work-plans before?

19 A. Forms like this of a work-plan is a military work-plan and in the

20 upper left-hand corner it says "form DV-6," so that's the communications

21 form. This is the standard type of form used, and I've seen many similar

22 ones.

23 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to the third page of both English and

24 B/C/S.

25 Q. I have a couple more questions for you before the break.

Page 20295

1 Lieutenant-Colonel, at the top you'll see a reference to a body called the

2 Joint Command with the call signal, call-sign, of Pastrik. And right

3 below that you see the forward command post for the Pristina Corps having

4 call-sign of Pastrik 13. Do you recall seeing or hearing or using either

5 of those call-signs during either 1998 or 1999?

6 A. I have to mention first of all that this document was not properly

7 filled out from the professional point of view as a communications

8 officer, I noticed that --

9 Q. I'm sorry, Colonel. Could you just answer my question first.

10 A. This is the first time that I see this document. I've never seen

11 it before.

12 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was: Do you recall seeing

13 or hearing or using those call-signs, Pastrik, in 1998 or 1999?

14 A. Pastrik 13, that was the one we used. Pastrik is incorrect,

15 Pastrik as it is, just that single word.

16 Q. And number 8 -- I'm sorry. I don't have -- number 7 -- I'm sorry.

17 MR. HANNIS: Could I go to another English page -- perhaps, Your

18 Honour, this is the time for the break.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marinkovic, we have to have a break at this

20 stage; while we have it, would you please leave the courtroom with the

21 usher and we'll see you again in 20 minutes.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

Page 20296

1 [The witness takes the stand]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Colonel, one last thing with regard to those communications plans.

5 I wanted to look at the one that is B/C/S page number, the last four

6 digits are 3242, I think it's the second page among the B/C/S. There's a

7 reference to what appears to be the 3rd Battle Group of the 15th Armoured

8 Brigade and the 2nd Battle Group of the 15th. Do you see that --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And there's a reference to call-signs or call signals of Goles 80

11 and Goles 70. Do you recall those call-signs being used by subordinate

12 units of the 15th?

13 A. Yes, these are code-names for units from the communications plan.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to show you Exhibit 3D1004, 1004.

15 This is from the 21st of August, 1998 --

16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I think the Trial Chamber has taken a

19 clear-cut position on newspaper articles. I don't think that any sort of

20 cross-examination at all can be based on this. Thank you.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: You know that is not our position. The position we

22 take depends obviously on the potential relevance of answers to the

23 questions formulated by reference to newspaper reports, so let's hear what

24 the question is first of all.

25 MR. HANNIS: Well, my question is, Your Honour, I'm not sure that

Page 20297

1 that's the document I'm looking for. I have 3D1004, 1004, as being a 21st

2 of August, 1998, Pristina Corps command security section report. And what

3 I printed out yesterday and had a hard copy, that's the number I took it

4 from in e-court, 3D1004. Yeah.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: You now have it?

6 MR. HANNIS: Yes, I have it now.

7 Q. General [sic], it's page 1 for you. Have you seen these kind of

8 documents before in your work?

9 A. I have seen this sort of document. It's a security section

10 telegram. I used to work for them at a later stage.

11 Q. Okay. And this one is from the 21st of August, 1998, and it's --

12 the name at the bottom is Colonel Djindjic. Did you know

13 Colonel Slobodan Djindjic in 1998?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And who did he work for then?

16 A. He was with the security department in the 3rd Army.

17 Q. Okay. What was his position vis-a-vis Colonel Stojanovic?

18 A. He was a representative of the superior security organ, but he was

19 not his superior officer. That was Colonel Petar Kuzmanovic at that time

20 as far as I remember, the chief of security department of the 3rd Army.

21 Q. And in 1998 you were aware, were you not, of the existence of a

22 body that was called the Joint Command that met regularly in Pristina in

23 July through October of 1998? Did you know about them back then?

24 A. No, I didn't.

25 Q. And you didn't know about them in 1999?

Page 20298

1 A. No, I didn't.

2 Q. Would you look at item number 3 in that document.

3 MR. HANNIS: We have to go to page 2 of the English.

4 Q. And you'll see it makes reference to: "From the operative report

5 of the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija we would like to mention the

6 following ..."

7 Does not suggest to you, sir, that there was some body called the

8 Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija in August 1998?

9 A. Well, as a matter of principle, when I read this I see that it

10 says "report by the Joint Command." This was something that was forwarded

11 by the State Security Service, but as a matter of fact at the time I was

12 not aware of any such body or knew of any such body. I knew of the corps

13 command that was my superior command.

14 MR. HANNIS: Could we look at Exhibit P2945.

15 Q. This pertains to Colonel Stojanovic. This is a newspaper article

16 purporting to record an interview with him. Were you aware of that or did

17 you ever see that article --

18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.


20 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] This document has not been announced.

21 It's not on the document list of the OTP.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

23 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I thought I had it on the list.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's ask the question without the document,

25 Mr. Hannis.

Page 20299

1 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I wanted to show him the report on

2 page 2, which is a report from Colonel Stojanovic to the Joint Command on

3 the 10th of November, 1998.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: This is -- it's a copy of that order, is it?

5 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Or report rather.

7 MR. HANNIS: We saw it before. It's item number 2 on that page.


9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: It should have been notified, Mr. Hannis.

11 MR. HANNIS: All right, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you accept that?

13 MR. HANNIS: I do accept that.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Is there any explanation for it?

15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, apparently that's just human error on

16 this human's part.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, it would assist us, I think, to hear

18 what the witness can say on this, and it is a document which has featured

19 in the trial in the course of this week. It doesn't seem to us that there

20 could be any real prejudice caused to you in the circumstances, and

21 therefore we'll excuse the failure and allow these questions to be asked.

22 MR. HANNIS: And for the English I think we need to have page 10.

23 Q. Colonel, can you make that out on the screen in front of you? I

24 know it may not be very legible, but it's entitled --

25 A. It's quite illegible. Perhaps if you point me to the precise

Page 20300

1 spot.

2 Q. Well, the title --

3 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to the top of the page it has:

4 "Pristina Corps command, security sector, 11 November 1998." And

5 it says: "To the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija."

6 Q. Would you agree with that?

7 A. Yes, that's what it says.

8 Q. And this was provided in a newspaper interview that

9 Colonel Stojanovic gave when he was talking about events in 1998 and 1999

10 in Kosovo, and it too tends to show the existence of a body called the

11 Joint Command. That doesn't refresh your memory about whether such a body

12 existed and the security organ, security sector, were aware of it and

13 actually reporting to it?

14 A. I wasn't aware of it at the time, no. As far as I can tell, this

15 is a document produced by the security section. I had no authority to

16 inspect any documents within the possession of my superior officer, and

17 I've certainly never seen this document before.

18 Q. Okay. And when was the first time that you heard of such a body

19 as the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija? You must have heard about

20 it before you came here yesterday?

21 A. Yes, I had heard of it while following the trial here in

22 The Hague, and I also heard of it as I was being proofed by my lawyer.

23 Q. You didn't hear of it back when you were working as an expert for

24 the VJ commission for cooperation with The Hague Tribunal? Documents

25 weren't requested regarding the Joint Command?

Page 20301

1 A. I may have heard, but I don't remember. I'm only telling you what

2 I'm sure I remember.

3 Q. And at whatever point in time when you may have first heard of it,

4 you weren't motivated to ask General Lazarevic or General Pavkovic or

5 Colonel Stojanovic about what the Joint Command was?

6 A. No, I wasn't motivated. I know what the command system worked

7 like in the corps, therefore I definitely had no need to ask questions

8 about that.

9 Q. Well, you know what it worked at -- worked like at your level, at

10 the 15th Brigade, correct, but you don't know what it worked like at the

11 higher levels, do you?

12 A. I knew how the corps command was exercising command over the 15th

13 Armoured Brigade.

14 Q. You don't know about the Joint Command meetings that

15 General Lazarevic attended in 1998, do you?

16 A. No, I don't know, Mr. Prosecutor.

17 Q. You don't know about the dozens of Joint Command meetings that

18 General Pavkovic attended in 1998?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And you don't know about the October 29th meeting of the

21 inter-departmental staff with President Milosevic, President Milutinovic,

22 General Perisic, General Samardzic, General Pavkovic, General Lukic, and

23 several other high military and political figures in which the Joint

24 Command's accomplishments during the summer of 1998 were discussed in some

25 detail, you don't know about that either, do you?

Page 20302

1 A. No. You must be aware of the fact that that was too high level

2 for me at the time. I was captain first class at the time in the position

3 that I was holding.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: In 1998 and 1999, did you see any document that

5 made reference to the Joint Command, for example, the one that you've

6 mentioned a moment ago that contained information from the state security?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've explained, this is a

10 document from the security section, my superior section, the command.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I misunderstood what you said, and I'll

12 check.

13 Your answer was: "This was something that was forwarded by the

14 State Security Service." Is that a wrong translation of what you said?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not wrong, that's what the

16 sentence says, that it was received from the State Security Service.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


19 Q. Okay. The 15th Armoured Brigade's area of responsibility covered

20 what municipalities or parts of municipalities in 1999? Can you tell us?

21 A. Yes, the following municipalities, or rather, parts of

22 municipalities: Pristina municipality, Vucitrn, Kosovo Polje, Lipljan

23 perhaps, parts of Lipljan, and parts of Glogovac municipality.

24 Q. And in your work in 1998 and 1999 I think you told us that you --

25 you met or coordinated with a counterpart from the State Security Service

Page 20303

1 from the MUP. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes. I said that in 1998 in addition to my regular duties with

3 the command of the 52nd ARBR PVO. I also offered assistance to the

4 corps's forward command post, so to speak, and then my chief appointed me

5 coordinator with the State Security Service, with the state security

6 branch sector in the Djakovica garrison.

7 Q. And who was that individual?

8 A. Mr. Camovic. I think his first name was Sreten.

9 Q. How about in 1999, did you have any regular contact with members

10 of state security?

11 A. In 1999 I was in the Pristina garrison. My superior command was

12 based there and they were in charge of this communication with the State

13 Security Service. All I had was what happened through the superior

14 security section.

15 Q. And where were you physically located most of the time in March

16 through June of 1999?

17 A. I spent most of that period transferred to the village of Uglari,

18 if I may put it that way. That's just across the way from Kosovo Polje in

19 a house.

20 Q. And what municipality is that in?

21 A. Kosovo Polje, as far as I know.

22 Q. And how far from Pristina is that located?

23 A. Well, from the entry into town itself, the distance may be 2 or 3

24 kilometres. I never really thought much about that, but there are some

25 industrial facilities along the road, so it's almost the same thing

Page 20304

1 altogether.

2 Q. I'd like you to take a look at Exhibit P1996. I'll show you the

3 cover page first and then I'll take you to the page where I have a

4 specific question --

5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I think the witness can hardly be

8 expected to offer relevant information on a document or a meeting that he

9 has never seen and that he did not attend, especially not if we're looking

10 at an entirely different body. This is a document, these are minutes from

11 a MUP meeting. So much for that. Thank you.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

13 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I'm going to point him to the

14 comments by the chief for Pristina, where he's making comments about

15 cooperation with the VJ, problems with VJ soldiers and their conduct, and

16 ask him if that's something he was aware of or whether it's consistent

17 with what he knew about, et cetera. I think that's the kind of thing

18 we've done on a regular basis, Your Honour.

19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may. This last

20 sentence about doing that on a regular basis, my own client,

21 General Lazarevic, was actually disallowed from commenting on this very

22 document.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we have a reference for that, Mr. Cepic?

25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my case manager is

Page 20305

1 working on that. I hope we can get it over the next two or three minutes,

2 the exact page of the transcript. Thank you.

3 MR. HANNIS: I don't need to show him the document, Your Honour, I

4 can just ask questions.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: I appreciate that, but because you insist on doing

6 it we run into these difficulties.

7 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I don't think there's anything

8 improper in proceeding --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: You may be right, but I'd like to see what we did

10 on the occasion referred to if you want to insist on using the document.

11 MR. HANNIS: No, I'd like to save time and just ask some

12 questions.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Do that.


15 Q. Colonel, are you aware that the police in Pristina --

16 A. I apologise, I'm a lieutenant-colonel by rank.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, by the way, we still want that reference

18 as soon as you can get it. Thank you.

19 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour.


21 Q. Well, I'm sorry, I promoted you. Sir, the -- are you aware that

22 in May of 1999 the police in Pristina viewed cooperation with the VJ as

23 being poor and claimed that on one occasion Colonel Cirkovic was asked to

24 provide men for a joint and mixed check-point and the VJ soldiers did not

25 show up. Did you know about that?

Page 20306

1 A. This first portion about this being correct or not, I really don't

2 know, but I really don't know if Colonel Cirkovic was ever asked to do

3 anything by the MUP. You know, the corps command can actually order us to

4 set up a check-point, and the MUP can only file this request through the

5 corps command. I don't really know. We didn't have the manpower or the

6 equipment for that. I had reserve military policemen with me and they

7 were securing the check-point. I've told you about this already, haven't

8 I.

9 Q. Did you know about VJ members not stopping at check-points and

10 driving away from the police when they were asked to stop? Just yes or

11 no.

12 A. No one from my brigade.

13 Q. And how can you possibly know that? You couldn't have been with

14 every member of your brigade at every check-point they ever went by. You

15 can't possibly know that.

16 A. I have no knowledge of anyone from my brigade doing that.

17 Q. Okay.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my hard-working

20 assistant has just located the references, 18807 and -- through 18809,

21 those are the transcript references.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: The date?

23 MR. HANNIS: 22nd.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry?

25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] The 22nd of November.

Page 20307

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 Mr. Hannis.

3 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I was just checking that to

4 see how that transpired.

5 Q. Were you aware that there were volunteer units in VJ uniforms in

6 Pristina in May -- early May 1999?

7 A. I'm aware of the following: During the briefings with the chief

8 of the security section of the corps, and those briefings were held at

9 least once a week or more frequently, even I was given tasks to verify

10 some information. There was some unverified data circulating that there

11 were paramilitary formations, and I personally didn't know about this nor

12 do I know that somebody else was informed that there had been paramilitary

13 formations. And at the time, we had some people who, for reasons only

14 known to them, were misinforming us. So we needed to verify and double

15 verify everything.

16 Q. And in the course of your duties in the security service to gather

17 intelligence and identify and arrest any perpetrators of crimes, did you

18 come across allegations that MUP members, particularly at the mixed

19 check-points were allegedly engaged in committing crimes against the

20 civilian population, including murder, rape, looting, and robbery? Did

21 you know about that or hear about any of that?

22 A. I have no information concerning that.

23 Q. Are you aware of a report that General Lazarevic wrote on the 24th

24 of May, 1999, speaking specifically about that problem? Did you ever see

25 that or hear that?

Page 20308

1 A. I apologise, was this document sent to my brigade command? If it

2 was, then I probably did see it.

3 Q. The only copy I have shows it going up --

4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, I think it would be of

7 assistance, if we are referring to the document, to show it to the witness

8 as well so that he knows what he's talking about. Thank you.

9 MR. HANNIS: Well, my question was if he was aware that it had

10 been reported. I can show him the document but I'm trying to save time.

11 It's exhibit P1723.

12 Q. And I can hand you a hard copy, Colonel -- Lieutenant-Colonel --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: While that's happening, now that I've had a chance

14 to see the point in the transcript where Mr. Lazarevic was asked about

15 P1996, the circumstances were completely different from those that we've

16 just faced. It was re-examination on a matter which had already been

17 dealt with and adequately explained by him. What we're dealing with here

18 is cross-examination, quite different situation, and therefore one in

19 which it would have been perfectly proper for Mr. Hannis to make use of

20 the document.

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Colonel, I think it's the sixth paragraph down. Do you see one

23 that talks about the work of mixed check-points? I think it's highlighted

24 in orange on your copy. Yeah. Could you read that one to yourself

25 quickly and then tell us if as of 24th May 1999 you were aware of any

Page 20309

1 allegations like that.

2 A. In the area of my brigade there was just one mixed check-point, if

3 I remember well. It was at the entry point into Pristina from the

4 direction of Kosovo Polje. This document right now I have never seen

5 before, and I do not have nor did I ever have the information stated here.

6 I never came across such information and my operative work or in my area

7 for which I was responsible as chief of security.

8 Q. So you didn't file any reports orally or written to your commander

9 or up to Colonel Stojanovic about that kind of thing, about MUP committing

10 crimes against the civilian population, right?

11 A. All of the crimes that I learned of, I acted accordingly. If it

12 was committed by a member of the army, then I took measures; and if it

13 wasn't a member of the army who committed them, then I reported further on

14 to my superior. As for matters of these nature, I never informed about

15 them.

16 Q. All right. Thank you.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --

18 MR. HANNIS: I --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: -- there are two separate issues in there. There's

20 the issue of problems at mixed check-point, and there's the issue of

21 reporting of crimes.

22 MR. HANNIS: Well, my issue was the reporting of these particular

23 crimes by MUP against civilians, and I take his answer at the end where he

24 says: "As for matters of these nature, I never informed about them." So

25 I take it that means he did not report it up to General Lazarevic.

Page 20310

1 Q. Correct, isn't that right, Lieutenant-Colonel?

2 A. Well, there was no way I could have informed General Lazarevic

3 personally. I was not in such a situation.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, I'm not understanding this, Mr. Hannis.

5 The thing he says he didn't report was problems with the mixed

6 check-points, but your other question was whether he had reported murder,

7 rape, looting, robbery, matters of that nature, and he appears to say that

8 that was reported to his superior.

9 MR. HANNIS: Well, I'm not clear on that I guess I need --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm certainly not clear on it.

11 MR. HANNIS: -- to ask him.

12 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, did you or did you not advise your superiors?

13 A. Perhaps I gave an answer of a general nature, that I always

14 reported on any crimes that I came across. I didn't refer specifically to

15 the crimes mentioned here. Had I come across, and I didn't, had I come

16 across such crimes, I would have reported them.

17 Q. Okay.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well what --


20 Q. -- We understand --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: What kind of crimes did you come across then?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I came across people who had

23 committed looting, confiscated motor vehicles, and I filed criminal

24 complaints.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: But they're listed in this paragraph I think.

Page 20311

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, but, Mr. President, what

2 is stated here is that given that MUP tolerates crimes committed by their

3 members - and I didn't come across any MUP members who had committed

4 them - I took action with regard to my own people.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now I understand. Thank you.

6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

7 If we could go next to Exhibit 3D633.

8 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, with the help of the usher I'll trade you

9 documents. This is a -- what's been referred to as an evening briefing

10 session of the Supreme Command Staff on the 2nd of June, 1999. You'll go

11 down to number 3, it's General Farkas --

12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave --


14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] -- These minutes or at least several

15 levels below from the position held by the witness at the time, so I don't

16 see how he can give reliable and relevant information concerning something

17 that was briefed about at the highest level. I'm not quite familiar with

18 the hierarchy, but I'm sure that this is at least five levels above his

19 level.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: The whole purpose of having a system of course is

21 for information to be relayed up and down, and in cross-examination it's

22 perfectly proper to place before the witness the foundation for the

23 questions. Indeed, the objection's often taken that there's no foundation

24 or the foundation hasn't been adequately set. There's nothing improper in

25 the approach now being taken. If the question asked is objectionable in

Page 20312

1 some way, then we'll deal with that.

2 Mr. Hannis.

3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

4 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, you'll see I think the sixth bullet point down

5 under General Farkas. It says: "Crimes are being committed by our units

6 in Kosovo. Reports on these acts are not going through regular channels

7 and lines of command. Are serious things happening that the global public

8 is aware of?"

9 Isn't it true that the crimes that were being committed on the

10 ground weren't being fully reported up through the chain of command?

11 A. There are two parts to your question. First of all, is it true

12 that there were any crimes? Yes, it is true, and we did our best to

13 prosecute everything that we learned about. I at the position which I

14 held did not receive information that my commander knew about something

15 but did not report on it unless he concealed something from me, which I do

16 not believe is true.

17 Q. If you'll go down three more bullet points you'll see the entry,

18 it says: "15 bodies were found, including women and children, in the area

19 of the 15th Armoured Brigade."

20 That's your brigade. Were you aware of what this refers to?

21 A. Yes, yes, this is my brigade, and based on the date when this took

22 place all I can say that it was Donje Sudimlje. I can't remember that

23 there was anything else at the time.

24 Q. Well, when you told us about Donje Sudimlje before, did you

25 mention that there were women and children?

Page 20313

1 A. Yes, I said that the entire family was involved. That's the

2 information we received. However, we did not complete our investigation

3 on site because of the KLA attack, but based on the information we

4 collected in the village itself we knew that the entire family was killed.

5 Q. Well, I didn't understand that from your early testimony. Did you

6 tell us before that you actually found bodies? Wasn't what you told us

7 before that the bodies had been buried in the graveyard and you went to

8 try and locate them when you were fired upon, so you didn't find any

9 bodies, did you?

10 A. I think that I was clear in my evidence, that there were no

11 corpses there. We came across traces of the crime, signs of the crime,

12 but when upon receiving, collecting, information from the residents we

13 wanted to go to the graveyard, we were preventing brutally from doing

14 that.

15 Q. So from the signs you found at the scene you were able to

16 determine that there were 15 bodies, including women and children, from

17 the blood spatters on the wall and the empty casings?

18 A. No, we could not conclude anything about the figure. We could

19 only conclude something about the figure based on the conversations with

20 those who were present. And as I said, we were unable to verify that at

21 the graveyard.

22 Q. So what did you report up your chain of command about what you

23 found when you went out there on I think you told us it was the -- what

24 day did you say it was, I think you said it was the 5th of June?

25 A. The 5th of June.

Page 20314

1 Q. This report is the 2nd of June.

2 A. Yes, this is the report dated the 2nd of June. Based on the

3 information we received, the crime was committed on the 31st of May.

4 Q. And when did you first find out about that?

5 A. During that period of time, but I can't be more precise than that.

6 I can't remember exactly, but it was during that period of time that we

7 took action.

8 Q. Did you make a written report about that?

9 A. I can't remember.

10 Q. All right. So how can you be sure that this isn't referring to

11 some other incident?

12 A. No. I didn't say that I was sure. I said that based on the date

13 I thought that it was this incident; however, I didn't know that there

14 were any other such cases in my area.

15 Q. Have you seen the indictment in this case?

16 A. I didn't read it carefully, but I did see it.

17 Q. You see the next bullet point says: "We have problems with the

18 personnel over the appointment of certain senior officers from the

19 security service."

20 Do you know what that's a reference to?

21 A. It's on the other side, I apologise.

22 Q. I'm sorry.

23 A. I don't know. I don't know what this pertains to.

24 Q. Thank you, Colonel. That's all I had about that one. Do you know

25 who Colonel Stojanovic's counterpart was in the SDB? Who did he liaison

Page 20315

1 with from the Ministry of the Interior in 1998/1999?

2 A. I'm not quite familiar with the organization of the Ministry of

3 the Interior in order to be able to say anything authoritatively on it,

4 but he most likely stayed in touch with the chief of the sector of the

5 state security in Pristina.

6 Q. Did you know a David Gajic in 1998?

7 A. No, I didn't know him.

8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, for this next series of questions, based

9 on what happened the other day with the witness, I think I would request

10 we go into private session.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated]

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: What category of person are we concerned about the

14 identification of?

15 MR. HANNIS: It may affect the safety of at least one individual.

16 I can say more in private session.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: In any event, the reason is to ensure the security

18 of an individual who might otherwise be at risk?

19 MR. HANNIS: Correct.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Well, we'll go into private session for

21 that.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 20316











11 Pages 20316-20322 redacted. Private session















Page 20323

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]


8 Q. You mentioned yesterday that throughout 1998 and 1999 you were

9 sometimes or several times at the command post when anti-terrorist actions

10 were being executed. What were your duties at the command post during

11 such times?

12 A. I was mostly there as a representative of the command, that is to

13 say I was with my commanding officer there when a subordinate unit would

14 execute actions, whether it was a combat group or a battalion, an

15 establishment unit.

16 Q. And as a representative of the command, what exactly, what

17 precisely, did you do? Were you reading the reports as they came in and

18 analysing the information? What did you do?

19 A. No. I was there in my role as chief of the security organ, and in

20 those units, the ones that were reinforcements to the MUP or launched

21 independent terrorist actions, I had my operative positions and -- or they

22 had their operative positions and I would tell them what to focus on

23 during an action. And it was much easier for me if I was there to

24 understand the situation when I received the reports rather than just

25 receiving reports. So I could see whether something was not according to

Page 20324

1 the regulations or whatever.

2 Q. And what kinds of things would you task those operatives to do

3 during these actions?

4 A. Well, they weren't operatives, they were officers and soldiers who

5 voluntarily accepted working on certain affairs and collecting information

6 for the needs of the service. That is why I said operative positions.

7 And I issued tasks to them about anything that could indicate a crime

8 having been committed, that they should focus on that to see whether

9 anything had happened, anything untoward; and if something had, to report

10 to me, whether it ranged from theft to more serious crimes and they would

11 send in their reports to me and report to me at set locations. Of course

12 at the time it was not possible to do that work up at the command post,

13 because the principles of my service is that it maintains secrecy and

14 confidentiality in its work.

15 Q. And you told us how you went out and participated in that on-site

16 investigation regarding the Gerxhaliu family on the 5th of June, but

17 earlier in --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- May did you not receive information about the killing of

20 several civilians, the indictment alleges about 104 Kosovo Albanians

21 killed in connection with a large convoy of individuals moving on the

22 Studime gorge road in the direction of the town of Vucitrn. Did you never

23 hear about that incident?

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. Who decided that you would be at this joint or combined command

Page 20325

1 post during these operations? Who told you to go there?

2 A. My brigade commander and I at the collegium, the staff meeting in

3 the morning we would decide who would go to control the subordinate units;

4 it's one of the functions of command.

5 Q. Okay. Was -- well, what command post are you at then? Are you at

6 a command post of one of the subordinate elements that's engaged in the

7 task? You're not at the overall brigade command post, right?

8 A. Yes, you understood that very well. When the commander appears at

9 a command post, it is the brigade command post at the same time. So in

10 principle, the commander decides where his command post is going to be,

11 and for -- to facilitate the functioning, it's usually at the command post

12 of some lower-down unit when it comes to smaller actions, security is made

13 easier and communications are easier.

14 Q. Okay. So were you at the same command post that Colonel Cirkovic

15 was at?

16 A. Yes, yes, I was.

17 Q. Thank you. You mentioned --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Were you aware of a large convoy of many thousands

19 of people proceeding towards Vucitrn at the beginning of May?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did report to me my operative

21 positions, or rather, my subordinate reserve security organs which I

22 mentioned in my previous testimony that there were certain number of

23 civilians moving at a distance from my unit's combat deployment, so I knew

24 there was a convoy, and I personally saw some convoys along the roads.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it what you've just said means that your

Page 20326

1 brigade was in a position to observe this convoy?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From some elevations, some elevated

3 positions, you would observe that. They were relatively far away from the

4 position where my brigade was deployed, but because of the number of

5 people moving along that way, it was visible.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.


8 Q. You mentioned that in these actions where there was joint activity

9 with the MUP, that MUP commanders would be present at the command post as

10 well. Do you know any of those MUP commanders that were present at the

11 command post when you were there?

12 A. Well, I can remember -- I could try to remember, but as to names

13 perhaps Zarko Bratkovic -- I really can't remember the names, I can't.

14 Q. You mentioned, I think, meeting with your brigade collegium when

15 preparing for these kind of operations or actions. Is that correct?

16 Would there be some sort of planning meeting prior to the activities

17 taking place?

18 A. Yes, yes, the commander would rally the senior staff, tell us --

19 give us our tasks that we had got from the corps command to support the

20 MUP forces because you're talking about the joint actions now, that we

21 should reinforce them at such and such an axis for such as a purpose. So

22 he presents his views, he assigns tasks, and that kind of thing, and then

23 we would go on and act upon them.

24 Q. At those meetings, did your commander not show you the order

25 received from the Pristina Corps setting out what the task was for the

Page 20327

1 15th?

2 A. No, he wouldn't show it to us. He would hold a piece of paper

3 like you're holding your document in front of hi, and issue tasks to us.

4 Q. And you never saw any of these documents that might have "Joint

5 Command for Kosovo and Metohija" at the top?

6 A. I definitely didn't see any headings like that during that period.

7 Q. You -- did you during some other period?

8 A. I explained when I saw that. Do you want me to repeat it?

9 Q. You mean during proofing and preparation for your testimony?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Okay. You mentioned in your testimony today at page 13, line 15,

12 about volunteers, and you had once had occasion to turn some of them away

13 and send them back where they came from. When was that that you turned

14 away some volunteers?

15 A. That was at the beginning of the war, but I can't give you an

16 exact date. Possibly it is to be found in the archives of the documents,

17 but as far as I remember the volunteers were brought in two buses to

18 Kosovo Polje near the command post; and the commander set aside a

19 personnel officer which has the necessary organization and unit formation

20 in order to distribute these volunteers. And as the security organ

21 myself, I was asked to look at their cards to see whether there were any

22 problem people there on the basis of my knowledge, and that was at the

23 beginning of the war sometime.

24 Q. And how many did you actually turn away?

25 A. I can't remember now, to give you an exact figure, but no many,

Page 20328

1 about a dozen, ten or so, that did not agree to the conditions we set,

2 that they can't set up a volunteer unit the way they see fit, but they

3 enter the brigade and the general deployment as set.

4 Q. I think you mentioned a document. Did you report this then to

5 your brigade commander and/or your security superior?

6 A. Yes, I did inform them. I think I informed them orally, but the

7 personnel organ was duty-bound. I can't say whether they did report, but

8 it was their duty to send on the report to the corps about the reception

9 of these people.

10 Q. All right. Mr. Cepic showed you Exhibit 5D937 which was a report

11 on cleaning up the territory, the burial of certain dead animals. That

12 report was dated the 18th of May and it refers only to dead animals. Did

13 you actually get involved in any sanitation where human beings were

14 buried?

15 A. I don't remember. As you can see on the basis of that document,

16 it was the civilian protection that did that. It wasn't up to my units.

17 Q. All right.

18 MR. HANNIS: Can we look at 5D946 quickly.

19 Q. This is one that Mr. Cepic showed you as well. This is a report

20 from the 15th Brigade, combat report 25th of April.

21 MR. HANNIS: I need to go to page 3 of the English.

22 Q. And, Colonel, I can hand you a hard copy. It's on the second page

23 and it's item number 5 about security. You mention the return of the

24 Siptar population.

25 A. Yes, I have seen this.

Page 20329

1 Q. And as I said, it's dated the 25th of April. When had the Siptar

2 population returned?

3 A. That population returned during that period, successively, when

4 the terrorists felt that they didn't need them anymore as a human shield

5 and allowed them to leave, and that's when they returned to their homes.

6 Q. And how many people are we talking about here?

7 A. Well, I can't really give you the number. There were three

8 villages, and I wasn't there in all the places so I really can't say. But

9 if a village has 5 to 600 inhabitants, you can work it out for yourself

10 roughly.

11 Q. Okay. You at page 5 today answered a question about why the KLA

12 needed the civilian population, and you said:

13 "The civilian population always, at all times, whenever we came

14 across a situation like that, they used as protection against us and they

15 led the population outside villages with them when they had no other

16 protection, means of protection. They took them to the mountains or to

17 the forest because they knew that we wouldn't go into action when the

18 civilians were present."

19 Now, this is the 25th of April. You know, sir, don't you, that by

20 the end of the first week in April hundreds of thousands of Kosovo

21 Albanians had already left, some voluntarily, others, we say, by force and

22 gone to Albania and Macedonia. You know that, don't you?

23 A. That's rather a long question. I do know that a large number of

24 the Albanian population from Kosovo and Metohija left and went to Albania

25 and Macedonia. Now, what do you want me to answer to the rest of your

Page 20330

1 question?

2 Q. Well, you say that they always used the civilian population at all

3 times. I say to you that you cannot know that and, as a matter of fact,

4 don't you know that some of the civilians left whenever the army showed up

5 because they knew about incidents in which women, kids, and old people had

6 been killed by Serb security forces. They were afraid of you, that's why

7 they left?

8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, in Donje Sudimlje, I talked to the civilians

9 living in the village and part of my unit was not 500 metres above the

10 village at an elevation and there were inhabitants in the village on the

11 5th of June so I don't know what you want to say by what you've just

12 stated. What are you implying?

13 Q. I'm talking about all the other times you said the KLA used

14 civilian as a human shield. I'm saying to you: Isn't it possible that

15 the reason the civilians went on the move when you showed up was because

16 they were afraid of the army, not necessarily because the KLA was using

17 them as a human shield. Do you allow for the possibility that

18 sometimes --

19 A. That's right. I said. That's right, I said I gave a personal

20 example --

21 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry, we haven't got the full translation in

22 B/C/S, so could we have it right now.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you give the question again, Mr. Hannis,

24 from "isn't it possible."


Page 20331

1 Q. Isn't it possible that the reasons the civilians went on the move

2 when you, the VJ, showed up is because they were afraid of the army, not

3 necessarily because the KLA was using them as a human shield. Do you

4 allow for that possibility sometimes?

5 A. I think that they were afraid of the fighting that the KLA

6 provoked on the outskirts of those villages, and they were afraid that

7 they might get hurt in that. And I do claim that the KLA took them with

8 them as a human shield, wherever they couldn't pull out fast enough or

9 didn't have any fortification -- fortified positions or properly fortified

10 positions.

11 Q. Could I show you Exhibit 5D931. This is a document dated the 30th

12 of March, 1999. You looked at it earlier. And in your answer at page 3,

13 line 7, you said: "The purpose of this order was that the senior officers

14 of the unit should become more serious or preventive in actual fact."

15 Is that because already by the 30th of March there had been

16 problems and it was necessary to issue this kind of instruction or

17 reminder about respecting and applying the provisions of international

18 law?

19 A. In my brigade, no, and the purpose of this order is and was

20 prevention. As you can see, it was written pursuant to an order from the

21 Pristina Corps command, and then it was sent down the chain to lower units

22 as an order. So have you understood the answer now?

23 Q. Well, perhaps it's a matter of semantics, but your answer before

24 was: "The purpose of this order was that the senior officers of the unit

25 should become more serious."

Page 20332

1 To me, in English, that means prior to this date they've been less

2 serious and there's a need to be more serious, right?

3 A. Very well. As a lawyer you look at it that way. Perhaps I used

4 the vernacular when I said "get serious," but the substance of the order

5 is prevention.

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have no more questions for this

7 witness. I did want to note for the record that I have a new face at the

8 table Ms. Wendolijn Kramer, who is part of Mr. Reid's legion of

9 supporters.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marinkovic, your brigade was located in Srbica

11 in late March 1999; is that correct?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, not as far as I know.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Not at any time either at the end of March or the

14 beginning of April.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1999?


17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the answer is no.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my recollections.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

21 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a few questions,

22 but may I ask them after we take a break?

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Why? Is it more than five minutes you're talking

24 about?

25 MR. CEPIC: I don't know yet. I have to check. I have to check.

Page 20333

1 That is the point, and I have to discuss with my client in -- during the

2 break just to consider what to do.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll have another break at this stage.

5 Again, Mr. Marinkovic, could you please leave the usher. We'll

6 break now and we'll resume at quarter to 1.00.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

10 [The witness takes the Stand]

11 [Questioned by the Court]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marinkovic, to go back to the question I asked

13 you towards the end of the last session, I'm bringing up on the screen

14 Exhibit P1968, and it's at paragraph 5.3. Now, you'll see in that

15 paragraph a task which was ordered on the 24th of March, 1999, involving

16 villages which are part of the Srbica municipality bordering perhaps on

17 Glogovac and putting your brigade in the area of the south-east perhaps of

18 the -- sorry, south-west of the municipality around the end of March.

19 A. Your Honour, this is an accurate observation. These villages

20 referred to here as the axis of the attack -- perhaps I misunderstood you

21 when you asked me whether I was in Srbica, meaning the village of

22 Srbica --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: No, it was my mistake, and it's the municipality

24 I'm concerned about. And the end of the axis referred to there is not

25 very far from the village of -- the populated area of Izbica. Now, we've

Page 20334

1 heard evidence of the killing of a substantial number of people there.

2 Were you aware of that?

3 A. I had heard of that, yes, about the village of Izbica

4 specifically, not at the time, but I did.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you remember when you heard of it?

6 A. Not quite. I can't be certain. I may have heard during the war

7 at one of the briefings, but I'm certain that I heard about this through

8 the media, the public media, but I can't be more specific than that.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: And at the end of March after this order, between

10 then and the end of March, it is your brigade that would be the VJ unit

11 operating in that area, would it?

12 A. Yes. As I said, parts of Glogovac municipality, parts of Kosovo

13 Polje municipality, Vucitrn, Pristina, and parts of Lipljan municipality,

14 the southern parts. Until later on following a defensive operation, we

15 were replaced by other units.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Looking at that paragraph, the village of Trdevac

17 is in which municipality?

18 A. I don't know, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And Tica do you know where it is?

20 A. I can't say without a map. I'm really not familiar with the

21 breakdown.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

23 Mr. Hannis, anything arising from this?

24 MR. HANNIS: No, thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

Page 20335

1 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Re-examination by Mr. Cepic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel, while this is on the screen

4 in front of you, the axis there for the 15th Brigade, how far is that from

5 Izbica, can you determine that?

6 A. No, not without a map, I'm sorry. One thing I can say, though, is

7 by looking at these villages they were in the blockade of this sector on

8 the southern slopes of the Kosmet [as interpreted] mountain, I think it's

9 quite far from the mountain, Izbica, and I think our equipment, combat

10 equipment of my brigade couldn't go there, couldn't pass there, it's just

11 the lie of the land that would have made it impossible for us to go there.

12 MR. CEPIC: In transcript, page 76, line 14, it is not Kosmet,

13 Kosmac mountain and from the mountain Izbica, village Izbica, whatever.

14 Your Honour, may I continue?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Sir, all my questions stem from Mr. Hannis's questions on the

18 radio system that you were using, the communications system. What was the

19 call-sign for the 15th Motorised Brigade?

20 A. You mean the 15th Armoured Brigade?

21 Q. Yes, that's precisely what I mean.

22 A. Well, looking at all these documents jogged my memory. I think

23 back in 1998 it was Goles and back in 1999 it was Grom, might have been

24 but I'm not certain.

25 Q. Which one were you using during the war?

Page 20336

1 A. I was Grom 242 for the most part.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. CEPIC: Could we have on our screens 5D1052, please.

4 Q. While we're waiting for this document to come up,

5 Lieutenant-Colonel, back in 1999 during the war were there any combat

6 groups?

7 A. At the beginning of the war, a switch was made to establishment

8 units. So combat groups were disbanded, and then elements of units from

9 various battalions were returned to their own original establishment

10 units. So we were set up as establishment units in defensive operations.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you please look at page 1 of this document.

12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have page 3 as well.

13 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, if you look at this document, do you see any

14 reference there to particular time-frame?

15 A. I tried to explain to the Prosecutor that the document was drawn

16 up in a very poor way, it's inaccurate. You can't tell the time-frame,

17 you can't tell the communications plan that this is based on, and you

18 can't see the level of confidentiality involved. It simply doesn't offer

19 up sufficient elements [as interpreted] for us to analyse anything. I'm

20 telling you this as a professional signalsman, obviously.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If I just might say something, page

24 77, lines 24 and 25, the witness said: There are no elements for work

25 according to this document, whereas the transcript does not reflect that

Page 20337

1 literally.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

3 Mr. Cepic.

4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. No date, no other elements. Okay. Based on everything else that

6 we can see there, can you perhaps determine what year we're looking at?

7 A. It might be 1998 because of Ibar IK, what it says there.

8 Q. Thank you very much, Lieutenant-Colonel.

9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much. I

10 have no further questions for this witness. If I just may have an

11 opportunity to wish everyone a merry Christmas. Thank you.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marinkovic, that completes your evidence.

15 Thank you for coming here to give evidence. You're now free to leave the

16 courtroom.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Before we

21 show our next witness in, I would seek permission to address you. Last

22 Thursday we received witness notification and last Monday we realized that

23 there might be more time left that there might be some idle run on our

24 part, and we additionally called this witness, Goran Mijatovic [as

25 interpreted] I proofed him yesterday and all we have is 45 minutes. It

Page 20338

1 will be impossible for me to complete my examination-in-chief. He will

2 have to return both for the end of my chief and for the cross. It was

3 late in the day yesterday, but I realized that there was the option of

4 doing a 92 ter statement, and then maybe we could handle some details for

5 between 20 and 30 minutes, I mean live with this witness.

6 It was too late in the day yesterday to inform the OTP, we could

7 have drawn up the statement but we couldn't have kept it within the Rules.

8 The witness would have to remain under oath for a full month. I think

9 both for my Defence and for the Court, it might make sense. I realize

10 that we would even save up some time, even if you take these 45 minutes

11 away and then one and a half hours -- and then up to two hours, and that

12 is the time I envisaged for my chief, just not to keep him under oath for

13 a full month and not to start now. So what I propose is, if you agree,

14 that he be the first witness to appear after the break and to make him a

15 92 ter witness plus appearing live, but not for more than half an hour.

16 I thought there might be more -- I apologise, just to say this

17 again. I thought there might be more time left for us today, and just to

18 avoid wasting time I called this witness. However, in view of how much

19 time remains, I would ask the Trial Chamber to review my proposal.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 Mr. Stamp.

22 MR. STAMP: Obviously this is a matter for the Court, but we have

23 no objections except for an observation. Firstly, we were told about the

24 witness Goran Jeftovic so if the Defence were thinking about calling

25 Goran Mijatovic, we would object to him being called if that was our

Page 20339

1 intention because we were told about Jeftovic.

2 Secondly, the proposal of learned counsel would, in fact, save

3 significant time if he does proceed by way of 92 ter. Those are the

4 observations we would make.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's an interpretation

6 error, no more than that. My learned friend Stamp is quite right, the

7 transcript reads "Mijatovic," what I actually said was "Jeftovic,"

8 Goran Jeftovic, as opposed to Goran Mijatovic.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: The suggestion you make, Mr. Bakrac, only has force

11 because of the situation you yourself have effectively created. You are

12 the man that told us your case would finish today, and therefore it comes

13 as quite astounding that we should get to this stage in the day and you

14 effectively tell us that you're not in a position to proceed economically

15 and reasonably with the next witness. And the reason I mention this is to

16 emphasise what we said yesterday, that all the signs are so far that you

17 haven't really applied your mind adequately to how to introduce all the

18 evidence you wish to introduce within the time constraints that we all

19 must work under.

20 I hope that the next few weeks will see a change in that approach,

21 and that by giving you another 45 minutes to sort out your problems we may

22 see spectacular results.

23 So in the true spirit of the colour of the robes that we wear, we

24 will grant your motion, and it's the closest you'll ever get to a

25 Christmas greeting from this Bench.

Page 20340

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a special

2 Christmas assignment, but at any rate I can only thank you.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: We will therefore adjourn now, and we will resume,

4 I'm told, in court III -- sorry, before I --

5 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, there's one procedural matter

6 we wanted to raise before the end of the year, IC0163 and P3048 were maps

7 that were discussed in private session yesterday with Witness SD-1. We

8 neglected to mention that we wanted to tender those under seal.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall ...

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the status of these documents will be

12 changed. They will now be under seal.

13 So we'll adjourn and resume on Wednesday, the 16th of January, at

14 2.15, in court III.

15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I also wish to wish you all a happy Christmas.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.07 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

18 January, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.