Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20930

 1                          Thursday, 24 January 2008

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5                          [The witness entered court]

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  The cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva will continue

 9    in a moment.  Please bear in mind that the solemn declaration to speak the

10    truth which you made at the beginning of your evidence continues to apply

11    to that evidence until it's complete.

12            Mr. Sachdeva.

13            MR. SACHDEVA:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14                          WITNESS:  MILOS MANDIC [Resumed]

15                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                          Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva: [Continued]

17       Q.   Good morning, General.  I'm going to be very --

18       A.   Good morning.

19       Q.   -- Today.  Paragraph 32 of your statement you speak about the

20    order which is Exhibit P2014 and that is the order of the Pristina command

21    dated the 25th of May, 1999, and I'd like to ask the registrar to bring

22    that up on to the screen; and I'm going to ask you a few questions about

23    that document.  If we could go to -- firstly, you recognise this order,

24    don't you?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 20931

 1       Q.   If we could go to page 2 of the B/C/S and page 3 of the English.

 2    Now, at the top of page 2 you'll see it reads:  "Engage armed non-Siptar

 3    civilians to secure vital facilities and communications to protect and

 4    defend the local population."

 5            And my question is:  These armed non-Siptar civilians were for the

 6    most part locally armed Serbs by the Serb forces that were assisting in

 7    combat operations, weren't they?

 8       A.   First of all, I would like to point out this.  We see the date in

 9    the header of this order.  This order was never implemented, although it

10    was in fact delivered to the units.

11            Secondly, I would like to point out this --

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Mandic --

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- unarmed non-Siptar population,

14    that's what it says.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Madic, yes that's what we want you to tell us

16    about, what does that mean?  It's a simple question.  You don't need to

17    tell us anything else.  Just tell us what that means.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer this question simply

19    because these armed units are not something that I had as part of in my

20    units nor was I aware of the existence of any such armed units in my

21    surroundings.  As I had none, there was no way that I could dispatch them

22    to wherever my own unit was performing combat operations.

23            MR. SACHDEVA:

24       Q.   Well, General, at the end of this order - and you'll remember that

25    paragraph 14 at the end of the order places you as the commander of the

Page 20932

 1    252nd Armoured Brigade in charge of the planning, organizing, and

 2    conducting of combat operations.  So when you received this order, leaving

 3    aside that you say it was not implemented, when you saw that term "engage

 4    armed non-Siptars," what did it mean to you as someone who was

 5    responsible -- who would have been responsible for the planning of these

 6    operations?

 7       A.   Again, the order was never implemented.  Secondly, in that order

 8    there's a particular item about tasks for units.  A task in this order was

 9    defined also for my brigade, and it doesn't say anywhere unarmed -- it

10    doesn't say anywhere armed non-Siptar population; therefore I believe

11    myself to be under no obligation in relation to any such armed units.

12    They never reported to me nor was in fact I aware that there were any such

13    units existing near me.

14       Q.   And I'm sorry I have to persist.  As I've already mentioned, you

15    were placed in charge of the implementation of this order, and in fact it

16    is a direct -- I suggest to you it is a direct order to engage the armed

17    non-Siptar civilians.  So do you agree at least that it means that those,

18    for the most part, those locally -- the local Serbs in those villages were

19    to be engaged by the military in combat operations?  Do you agree with

20    that?

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  Just a moment.

22            Mr. Cepic.

23            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, I believe

24    we've covered this ground at least twice before, and now my learned friend

25    is asking the same question over again.  Likewise, there is the

Page 20933

 1    implication, the following implication, in my learned friend's question:

 2            "I suggest to you it is a direct order, "and so on and so forth,

 3    whereas the general has already explained what exactly the order contains

 4    in item 5.  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  I disagree strongly with that proposition.  The

 6    witness has not answered the question and the question can be pursued.

 7            Please continue, Mr. Sachdeva.

 8            MR. SACHDEVA:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9       Q.   General, do you remember the question or should I repeat it?

10       A.   Please repeat.

11       Q.   The question is this:  This instruction to engage armed non-Siptar

12    civilians is an instruction to engage for the most part those local Serbs

13    from those villages by the military, by the VJ, by the MUP and for them to

14    be used in combat operations.  Do you agree with that?

15       A.   It is your right to make suggestions such as these, but I simply

16    can't confirm that.  Nothing like that ever happened throughout my three

17    months in Kosovo and Metohija.  As to item 14 of the order, as you have

18    explained, it says that the 252nd Mechanised Brigade -- Armoured Brigade

19    must organize coordinated action, but this was never implemented.  It was

20    withdrawn for that precise reason.  The brigade was in no position to

21    organize all these things in the broader area, and especially not in an

22    area that was outside of its area of responsibility.  We were unable to

23    establish any sort of contact with our neighbours, let alone exercise

24    command over any particular combat operations.  Therefore, once again,

25    this order was in fact never implemented.

Page 20934

 1       Q.   Again, let's leave aside that fact.  Presumably when

 2    General Lazarevic wrote this order he had the impression that it could

 3    have been implemented.  Now, when you received this order, weren't you at

 4    least curious as to what this phrase "engage the armed non-Siptars" meant

 5    as a commander, as someone who was responsible for the implementation of

 6    this order?

 7       A.   First of all, when you receive an order from one of your superior

 8    officers in the VJ there's a procedure called understanding your tasks.

 9    One thing you do is you look for where your unit belongs and where you

10    belong in that particular task.  Once you've understood the position of

11    your unit, all you care about are the adjacent units and nothing else.

12    Given the fact that armed non-Siptar population is not something that I

13    had in my units or anywhere near me, it just wasn't something that I was

14    looking at at the time.  I had enough on my plate as I was, and I

15    certainly was in no position, or for that matter, able to deal with this,

16    it simply would have been too much.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Mandic, is it correct to say that you were put

18    in charge of planning the coordination among units for the execution of

19    this action?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we look at item 14

21    of this order, we shall see that there is a contradiction there.  One

22    cannot have a brigade implementing combat operations, especially if that

23    task was not specified in the previous item of the corps commander's

24    order, and that was why the order was never carried out.  I had no

25    equipment and no ability at all to organize a combat operation of this

Page 20935

 1    sort, and that was the reason the order was never implemented.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Would you now answer my question.  Is it correct to

 3    say that you were supposed to be in charge of planning the coordination

 4    among units for the execution of this action?

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to item 14 of the order,

 6    the answer is yes.

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  When you got this order, did you scratch your head

 8    and wonder:  How the hell am I going to do this?

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  And did it never cross your mind to think:  Who are

11    hell are the armed non-Siptar civilians?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If there were any in areas covered

13    by other units, then those units were the ones that were to involve them

14    as their neighbours or as units within their own respective combat

15    dispositions.  I simply spent no time wondering about that because this

16    didn't relate to me.  I never had a unit like that, and this was not one

17    of my problems.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  And in the planning of this action, would it not

19    have been important to know how many of them there were?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I simply didn't go into that.  I

21    received the order with some delay because the liaison officer who had

22    gone on to get it--

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  That's not my question.  My question is:  Would it

24    not be important to know how many of them there were?  If you were

25    actually going to carry this out - we know you didn't - but if you were,

Page 20936

 1    would it not have been important to know how many of them there were?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there was no way I

 3    could know how many establishment units there were that were supposed to

 4    carry out this task, in the sense of manpower and equipment that could be

 5    used for fighting, let alone this other unit that you have been referring

 6    to.

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Move to something else, please, Mr. Sachdeva.  That

 8    seems to be all we're going to get on this.

 9            MR. SACHDEVA:  Yes, Mr. President.

10       Q.   General, my last topic.  If we go to item 5 of this order, and

11    that's page 5 of the English and page -- page 3 of the B/C/S, and actually

12    it's a similar question to the ones I've been asking you, but again this

13    order tasks you as the commander of the 252nd Armoured Brigade to engage

14    in combat activity with the PJP, special police unit, and the JSO, special

15    operations unit.  And the question is:  What did you do in terms of

16    establishing that coordination and cooperation with the police?

17       A.   First of all, what I don't see defined here is which unit this is

18    about.  This is a very generic term; that is what I was unclear about.

19    This is a very generic term as used in relation to police, as if, for

20    example, it said just VJ, whereas of course the VJ actually comprises a

21    lot of smaller units.  But the order arrived late, or rather, I received

22    it late and I was unable to establish contact with these units.

23    Therefore, I didn't even know which units would be operating on this task

24    alongside the brigade.

25       Q.   Well, I'm a little bit confused by that answer.  You said you

Page 20937

 1    didn't know which units they referred to, but then you also say you were

 2    unable to establish contact with the units.  So did you actually attempt

 3    to establish contact with these units?

 4       A.   Not according to the order.  A very generic word is used there.

 5    According to what it says, I was to establish contact with whoever was in

 6    command of the police forces at the upper-most level.  As for the armed

 7    forces, I was unable to establish contact with the upper-most levels.

 8    Somebody ought to have told me which unit this was supposed to be.

 9       Q.   Well, General, in your statement you say, as you've told the

10    Court, that this order was not implemented; however, the action took

11    place, and there was co-activity and good cooperation existing between the

12    two structures.  So when the action took place, how did you ensure that

13    this cooperation continued between the VJ and the police?  Who did you

14    speak to?  What did you speak about?  How was that cooperation done?

15       A.   This order was not carried out.  There was another order that was

16    carried out which arrived later bearing different date for readiness.  The

17    cooperation with the police occurred in the following way:  I called an

18    officer from the corps command who was in charge of planning this

19    operation, as defined in the other order; and I asked this officer to get

20    in touch with the police with their own officer in order to have

21    coordination, concerted action, and cooperation on the ground.

22       Q.   And who was the person in the police that was contacted?

23       A.   I think Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic.

24       Q.   And what was the particular police unit he belonged to?

25       A.   He was assistant commander of the 122nd Detachment of the PJP

Page 20938

 1    forces.

 2       Q.   And as the commander of this operation, did you yourself meet with

 3    members of this detachment and explain what was to take place?

 4       A.   We met and on that occasion he said that he had his own mission

 5    which had been assigned to him by his superiors.  He also said that he

 6    would carry it out independently and that he would be one of my brigade's

 7    neighbours.

 8       Q.   And in that meeting you had, how did you -- what was it that you

 9    discussed with respect to the joint or the -- sorry, the cooperation and

10    the coordinated activity?

11       A.   He went on to define his own axis of operations.  He said who

12    would be the right-hand neighbour of my unit, and I told him about my own

13    axis.  I told him about his left-hand neighbour.  We set the time at which

14    we would achieve readiness for the start of combat activity.  The time had

15    already been set by the corps command order.

16       Q.   And I take it that as a member of the military and given that

17    combat is the specialty of the military, if there was a disagreement or if

18    there was a conflict between planning, your, the military's, decision and

19    method in conducting that combat would take precedence over the police; is

20    that right?

21       A.   First of all, the police had their own mission, they had their own

22    axis of operations, and they had their own ultimate objective.  And by the

23    time they got there, their activities had already been planned, objected.

24    My situation was difficult because my unit equipment didn't actually have

25    the equipment and weapons that it would have been supposed to have, but

Page 20939

 1    rather I had to use combat vehicle crews, take some of their members, and

 2    our planning was separate.  The only thing that had been set for us was

 3    the deadline at which this activity was to start.

 4       Q.   Well, presumably the objective was the same for the military and

 5    the police in terms of the overall operation.  So if there was a

 6    disagreement between the military and the police, is my understanding

 7    correct that the military -- that the method suggested by the military

 8    would prevail; is that right?

 9       A.   Again, my activity had been planned by the time I got there.  The

10    police officer's activity had been planned by the time he got there.  My

11    mission was separate from the mission that the police had as their

12    ultimate objective.

13       Q.   Well, if there had been separate plans and your tasks had been

14    defined in the police's tasks had been defined, what was the point in the

15    cooperation then?  Why did you need to meet?

16       A.   We had to meet, above all, in order to define the time for

17    readiness to begin this activity, to define the axes along which the units

18    would have been brought there in order to keep ourselves from getting our

19    wires crossed and in order to have some coordination and concerted action

20    because we were actual neighbours, weren't we.

21       Q.   And at this meeting, how many members of the military were there,

22    and how many members of the police were there?

23       A.   Seven or eight military, three or four police officers, not

24    counting the security people who were there.

25       Q.   And when you were discussing the forthcoming operation, did you

Page 20940

 1    refer in the briefing, did you refer to a common map or a common order?

 2       A.   I had a decision map containing the decision of the Pristina Corps

 3    command.  I showed them how the operation had been envisaged.  However,

 4    they refused to play along with that map and said -- and the way the

 5    operation was portrayed on the map, they said had they had their own axis

 6    of operations and that they could not act within the same framework as the

 7    army units.

 8       Q.   When you say they said they had their own axis of operations and

 9    their own plan, this is something they told you or did they show you a

10    specific plan and order?

11       A.   They said they had their own axis and their own ultimate objective

12    ones, once that objective was achieved they would move on to their next

13    mission.

14       Q.   So your -- tell me if my understanding is correct, in this

15    briefing you're referring to a common -- you're referring to an order and

16    a map discussing an upcoming operation and some of them -- the police

17    tells you they had their own plans.  What was your reaction?

18       A.   My reaction was to accept what they said.  We were of the same

19    rank.  I had to come to terms with their mission.  Other than that, it

20    suited me just fine that they should have their own axis of operations so

21    we did not have to operate together but rather separately.

22       Q.   General, you were about to go into combat with the police in a

23    coordinated action and you are giving a briefing and the police tell you

24    they had their own plans.  Did you not even ask to see those plans?

25    Didn't you feel it was important to you as someone who was planning the

Page 20941

 1    operation, to find out what those plans were?

 2       A.   The commander of that unit had sufficient authority to tell me, to

 3    inform me about his own axis of operations and to tell me about their

 4    ultimate objective, what the line was that they were supposed to reach and

 5    what mission they he had been assigned.  I wasn't authorised to ask him to

 6    hand over their documents to me so that I might then check whether they

 7    were all right or not.

 8       Q.   It's not a question of handing over documents --

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, Mr. Sachdeva, how much more are you going to

10    pursue this?  You are --

11            MR. SACHDEVA:  Not much further, not much further.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  -- well over the time that was suggested.  Is there

13    any other topic that needs to be dealt with?

14            MR. SACHDEVA:  No, Mr. President.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  All right.

16            MR. SACHDEVA:

17       Q.   Thank you, General.

18                          Questioned by the Court:

19            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Mandic, when this action was actually carried

20    out, and indeed prior to the order being issued to you which you could not

21    implement, do you understand that there had been coordination of planning

22    between VJ and MUP representatives at a higher level than you?

23       A.   This is something that I was able to assume based on the documents

24    that I received.  Whenever there was joint activity, the task was to lend

25    support to forces of the MUP.

Page 20942

 1            JUDGE BONOMY:  The order which you were asked about, P2014, you

 2    say contains language which you don't really understand, that's the armed

 3    non-Siptar civilians.  It contains a direction at the end which you say

 4    could not be implemented because of the general state of readiness of the

 5    combat units involved.  The order seems a bit of a mess.  Is that your

 6    impression of it?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  This order was signed by Mr. Lazarevic --

 9    General Lazarevic.  We've had quite a number of witnesses in this court

10    tell us what a professional officer he was.  Can you account for him

11    making such a hash of an order?

12       A.   I don't believe he was the one who made a hash of it.  Probably he

13    was not aware of the situation that prevailed in my unit, and he wasn't

14    aware of the fact that I wasn't able to establish contact with all those

15    units that were supposed to carry out this task.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  I want to try and be clear about the circumstances

17    when you came into Kosovo.  If you have your report -- your statement in

18    front of you, we can perhaps focus on paragraphs 7 and 8.  You refer in

19    paragraph 7 to part of the brigade being relocated to Kosovo on the 20th

20    of March, but you've also given us in the course of your evidence the date

21    the 16th of March.  What was it that happened on the 16th of March?

22       A.   In its composition under the order on measures of constant

23    combat-readiness, the brigade had a group which corresponded to a weakened

24    battalion.  In mid-March, as I said yesterday, this unit was

25    resubordinated to the command of the 125th Motorised Brigade.  I believe

Page 20943

 1    the order stipulated that it was about checking mobilisational and

 2    combat-readiness of that unit, that is, combat group, which is a standing

 3    unit in army units under the order on measures of constant

 4    combat-readiness.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  So that was removed from your command and

 6    resubordinated at that stage to the Pristina Corps?

 7       A.   To the 125th Brigade, and the brigade was subordinated to the

 8    Pristina Corps command.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.  You then say that on the 20th of March

10    what ultimately became the 252nd Tactical Group was redeployed to Kosovo.

11    Now, on the 20th of March, was it already designated as the 252nd Tactical

12    Group?

13       A.   Two armoured battalions that were transferred by the 20th of March

14    were units that were temporarily subordinated to the command of the 252nd

15    Armoured Brigade in February.  They were not called the 252nd Tactical

16    Group at the time when you are asking me about.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, when were they designated the 252nd Tactical

18    Group?  I think when combined with a command support units and combat

19    activity security units.

20       A.   The battalions were independent with their commands, and as such

21    they could be subordinated to any unit as long as they had a superior

22    command above them.  When the command was formed with the tactical units

23    that I stated in my statement, then they got the name 252nd Tactical

24    Group.

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  When was that?

Page 20944

 1       A.   We can reckon from the 23rd March.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  At that stage, were you their commander?

 3       A.   By virtue of the order of the army, I was temporarily sent to be

 4    the commander of that unit.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Simultaneously, did you remain commander of the

 6    252nd Armoured Brigade?

 7       A.   I could not simultaneously discharge both functions, but I was

 8    appointed to be the commander of that 252nd Armoured Brigade.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  In your statement you tell us that by the 17th of

10    February you were commander of the 252nd Armoured Brigade.

11       A.   Yes.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, do you stop being commander of that when

13    you're commander of the tactical group?

14       A.   When a person is temporarily sent to work in a different unit,

15    then his competencies in the originating unit cease.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  So there's a period during which you command the

17    252nd Tactical Group but do not command the 252nd Armoured Brigade; have I

18    got that right?

19       A.   From the 23rd March until 5th April, I was commander of the 252nd

20    Tactical Group.

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  Why was the change made on the 5th of April?

22       A.   The change occurred because Colonel Jovanovic Miodrag was

23    temporarily sent to the command of the Pristina Corps, who was able to

24    take over as commander of the tactical group, and he was qualified enough;

25    and since the 252nd Armoured Brigade was deprived of its commander by

Page 20945

 1    establishment, I returned to my duties as commander by establishment.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  The 252nd Armoured Brigade was, according to your

 3    statement, resubordinated to the Pristina Corps on the 29th of March.

 4    When resubordination of that nature takes place, do orders require to be

 5    made both by the corps from which the brigade is moving and by the corps

 6    to which it is moving?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, just to complete the position in relation to

 9    the 252nd Tactical Group, are you aware of very serious allegations of

10    criminal acts by members of the 252nd Tactical Group in the course of

11    April 1999?

12       A.   No.

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  Do you know the location Mali Alas in Lipljan

14    municipality?

15       A.   I know it is a place name.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  And you're not aware of allegations of the murder

17    of 20 Albanians there by a group from the 252nd Tactical Group?

18       A.   No.

19            JUDGE BONOMY:  If you could look now, please, at paragraph 42 of

20    your statement which I think is a reference to a military territorial

21    detachment; is that correct?

22       A.   Yes.

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, that detachment was resubordinated to your

24    brigade.  Can you give us examples -- specific examples of the tasks they

25    undertook while resubordinated to your brigade?

Page 20946

 1       A.   The primary task of this detachment was to secure roads, passes,

 2    and crossings that were susceptible -- that were liable to be used by

 3    terrorist forces to cross over from one area to another because the unit

 4    was composed of local people who knew all the tracks and shortcuts.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Let me stop you there.  What do you mean

 6    by "secure" these various facilities?

 7       A.   I mean primarily that they were supposed to make sure that roads

 8    are passable.  It often happened to us that roads, being long, could be

 9    mined.  So we set up forces to guard such stretches.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  So do they stand on the road and guard it?  Do they

11    drive along the road?  Or what do they do?

12       A.   They had their positions overlooking roads.

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  So they could be concealed overlooking the roads;

14    is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  And beyond securing routes, did they do anything

17    else?

18       A.   Sometimes they could be engaged in combat activities because they

19    had particular kinds of weapons, such as mortars 59-millimetres, and we

20    had no such weapons.  We could not move large weapons systems.  And the

21    brigade did not have enough personnel to conduct combat activities because

22    the personnel of my brigade had the kind of equipment that requires the

23    constant presence of crews.

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Do you recollect the strength of the 101st

25    Detachment?

Page 20947

 1       A.   Around 100.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Was that the only detachment subordinated to you?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Cepic, re -- sorry --

 6            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour --

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Just a moment.

 8            MR. SACHDEVA:  Mr. President, I apologise.  I do have one question

 9    arising from your questions, and the reason why is the issue of Mali Alas.

10    I was going to raise it yesterday; however, the answers of the witness

11    made -- made me make a decision otherwise.  However, now that it's raised,

12    I would like to put one document to the witness with your leave.

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

14                          Further cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

15       Q.   General, I'm sorry, I want to show you one document, and that is

16    3D1061.  And this is a document from the 3rd Army security department and

17    it pertains to the incident in Mali Alas in April 1999.  And if you look

18    at the bottom in the handwritten notes, you will see that it states, if

19    the English can be scrolled down, please.  You'll see in the second

20    sentence, and I'll read it:  "The facts point to the conclusion that the

21    crime may have been committed by members of the TG, tactical group, of the

22    252nd Armoured Brigade ..."

23            So the question is that your brigade is mentioned in this document

24    and I want to ask you that upon seeing this is it still your evidence that

25    you know nothing about these allegations?

Page 20948

 1            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honours, with your

 2    leave I would kindly ask my learned friend to read the entire passage

 3    without skipping certain words because the result is something taken out

 4    of context.

 5            MR. SACHDEVA:  I'd be happy to do that.

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  I'm not sure I understand the point that's being

 7    made.

 8            MR. SACHDEVA:

 9       Q.   Well, perhaps the sentence -- the full sentence --

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Very well, do read the full sentence.

11            MR. SACHDEVA:

12       Q.   "The facts point to the conclusion that the crime may have been

13    committed by members of the 252nd Tactical Group of the 252nd Armoured

14    Brigade, but also by units of /illegible/ from Lipljan," and then it goes

15    on to say:  "There is no information as to whether they were requested to

16    give documents, statements (Ilic) et cetera."

17            Your unit is not mentioned in the 3rd Army security department

18    report, and again I ask you:  Do you maintain your evidence that you had

19    no idea about these allegations during that time?

20       A.   First I would like to respond to what is written here.  Whoever

21    wrote the tactical group from the 252nd Armoured Brigade did not know the

22    situation, and I believe that person to have been militarily ignorant

23    because it's not a tactical group of the 252nd Armoured Brigade, it's an

24    independent tactical group with its own chain of command.  It was in a --

25    on a separate route at quite a distance from us.  I had no private, let

Page 20949

 1    alone, official contacts that would enable me to know what was going on

 2    then.

 3       Q.   General, it's just a very simple question, and this person is from

 4    the 3rd Army, so he's not someone who's unfamiliar with military matters.

 5    This document does not change your testimony?  You had no idea of these

 6    allegations, yes or no?

 7            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Cepic, let him answer that question.

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had no knowledge about that, and I

10    keep saying that the tactical group was an independent unit, it was not

11    part of the 252nd Armoured Brigade.  I stated that yesterday as well.

12            MR. SACHDEVA:  Nothing further.

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  Can I see the next page of this document, please?

14    Both -- can we have the B/C/S also.  So the initials are at the bottom.

15    I'm sorry.

16            So who has actually signed that document, can you tell?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says:

18            "Chief, Colonel Stojadin Antic."

19            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah, that's who it's addressed to.  Who has

20    actually written it?

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see the Serbian text only --

22            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, does it look as though it was written by

23    Branko Gajic?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I can see, it is addressed

25    to Branko Gajic.

Page 20950

 1                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  So the actual report appears to be made by

 3    Colonel Antic to Gajic; is that correct?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Then there seems to be a draft letter in reply at

 6    the bottom, a proposed reply; is that right?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot read the text well, but

 8    there are things noted here in hand.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  You know who General Gajic is?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe he was one of the senior

11    officers in the security administration, but from this very text we can

12    see he worked in the security administration.

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

14            Mr. Cepic -- sorry -- Mr. --

15            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

16            MR. SACHDEVA:  I'm very sorry, Mr. President.  Just with respect

17    to the last name on this document I have to ask the witness one question

18    with your leave.  I note that it seems to have been --

19            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, what is the question?

20            MR. SACHDEVA:

21       Q.   General, you'll see --

22            JUDGE BONOMY:  No, no, tell me what the question is.

23            MR. SACHDEVA:  The question is that at the end of the document it

24    appears that the letter has been sent to the -- someone in his security

25    department in the 252nd Armoured Brigade, and I wanted to ask him whether

Page 20951

 1    he knows this person and whether the witness maintains the evidence that

 2    he had not heard about those allegations.

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  Sorry, so this letter shows what?  A letter sent to

 4    who in the 252nd Brigade?

 5            MR. SACHDEVA:  If we move to the last page of the English, please,

 6    it says that:  "The letter to the 1st army OB" --

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  No, we can read that for ourselves.  Your

 8    cross-examination is complete.

 9            Mr. Cepic.

10            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  If you allow

11    me, just for the record I want to clarify certain points.  My learned

12    friend from the Prosecution referred to a document and what was written in

13    a document, but I believe it is necessary to state that the handwritten

14    passage on that document was put to the witness, not the document itself.

15    And now I would like to ask a couple of questions, and just for the sake

16    of clarity next week witnesses will be coming who will provide much more

17    information about Mali Alas and who will make the picture much clearer.

18                          Re-examination by Mr. Cepic:

19       Q.   [Interpretation] General, it's me again.  Good morning.  Have you

20    ever seen this document before today?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Thank you.  Could you please look at the date.

23       A.   14 July 1999.

24       Q.   Thank you.  Is that after the war?

25       A.   Yes [as interpreted].

Page 20952

 1       Q.   I would like to call up another document, 3D1059.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  When was it you saw it before?

 3            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he answered no --

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Your answer is recorded as yes.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered I have not.

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  Have you seen that document before today?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 9            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honour?

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

11            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I would like to be useful for once.

12    The previous document had been shown to that Gajic who had been heard as a

13    witness, and that's when it was discussed before, just to remind you.

14            JUDGE BONOMY:  Please continue, Mr. Cepic.

15            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could I call Exhibit Number

16    3D1059, please.

17       Q.   [Interpretation] General, my learned friend from the Prosecution

18    put this document to you yesterday.  My first question is:  When did you

19    see it for the first time?

20       A.   Yesterday [Realtime transcript read in error "yes"].

21       Q.   Look at the date, please.

22       A.   25th June 1999.

23       Q.   Is that after the war?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Thank you.  Who issued this document and to whom was it delivered?

Page 20953

 1       A.   The document was issued by the security department of the 3rd Army

 2    command, and it was addressed to the security administration of the

 3    Supreme Command Staff.  One copy was left with the author and one with the

 4    security organ of the Pristina Corps.

 5       Q.   Well, you've just told us to whom it was delivered.  Was anything

 6    delivered to your brigade, your corps, or your army?

 7       A.   To the best of my knowledge, no.

 8            JUDGE NOSWORTHY:  Mr. Cepic, if I might, at page 23, line 20 --

 9    sorry, line 19, in answer to the question put I thought I heard a

10    different answer from the witness than what's recorded.  Could you clarify

11    that for me, please.

12            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, I will.

13       Q.   [Interpretation] General, for the record, when was the first time

14    you saw the document that you see on the screen right now?

15       A.   Yesterday, the 23rd of January, 2008, Mr. Cepic.

16       Q.   Thank you.

17            JUDGE NOSWORTHY:  [Microphone not activated]

18            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, for this opportunity.

19       Q.   [Interpretation] General, can the security organ institute

20    criminal proceedings without your knowledge and without informing you?

21       A.   Yes, the organ -- the security organ is not duty-bound to report

22    to me when instituting criminal proceedings.  He can notify only his

23    superior, and on this document on the stamp you can see 3rd Army command

24    and then separately it says "security organ."  And such seals are

25    available only to the security organs not to the command organs.

Page 20954

 1       Q.   Do security organs have a separate chain of reporting?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   In item 2 here we see, based on initial operative information.

 4    General, I know you're not a lawyer, nor have you ever worked in the

 5    security organs, but let me ask you, the document you see before you is it

 6    in fact a criminal report?

 7       A.   I can only interpret it by its title which says:  "Amendment to

 8    the report."

 9       Q.   It says in the document that volunteers and reservists.  Did you

10    have any reservists, volunteers, on the 25th of June when this document

11    was drawn up?

12       A.   Military conscripts labelled volunteers, I had those until the

13    12th of June, 1999.

14       Q.   Thank you.  After the 12th of June, did you have any authority

15    over them?

16       A.   They were released on the 12th of June, and after that I had no

17    further authority over them.

18       Q.   Thank you.  General, in one of your paragraphs, the one before the

19    last, or rather, 48, you said that measures were taken to prevent the

20    perpetration of crimes and to detect perpetrators?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Did the security organ in your brigade or the security organs in

23    your brigade, did they work intensively on this?

24       A.   The security organs - and I told you yesterday in what units they

25    were - did their job very intensively within the framework of their

Page 20955

 1    competencies.  And I am very happy to have all perpetrators of crimes

 2    detected and prosecuted, especially serious crimes.  And any document

 3    tending in that direction will contribute to clarifying the truth.

 4       Q.   Thank you, General.  General, yesterday we mentioned the Supreme

 5    Defence Council; does it have a president at its head?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   In war time was the president the supreme commander?

 8       A.   According to the Constitution of the FRY in both peace and war,

 9    it's the president of the republic who is in command of the army in

10    accordance with the decisions of the supreme council, and from this it

11    follows that the president of the republic is at the same time the supreme

12    commander.

13       Q.   That's at the top.  In view of your military experience and your

14    rank, is it possible that there exists a collective organ of command

15    within the chain of command?

16       A.   No, such a thing cannot exist.

17       Q.   Thank you.  I would now like to touch upon some issues raised by

18    my learned friend.  At one point you -- he mentioned that you were in

19    command of the Drenica action, and you spoke about it in your statement.

20    My question is:  Were you in command of the MUP forces?

21       A.   I could not have been the commander of the action, and in item 14

22    of the order shown to me today it says I was only supposed to be in charge

23    of planning, coordination, coordinated action, and cooperation.  I was not

24    in command of the MUP units.

25       Q.   Thank you, General.  Let's clarify another point concerning

Page 20956

 1    Tactical Group 252 which was mentioned quite often.  Can you tell me from

 2    what units -- out of what units that tactical group was composed --

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, that's already in the statement.  Are you

 4    challenging that, Mr. Cepic?

 5            MR. CEPIC:  No.

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, there's no need -- unless you're challenging

 7    paragraph 7, there's no need for that.

 8            MR. CEPIC:  But just -- with your leave just to clarify something

 9    I think that is not mentioned --

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, ask the question to clarify.  You don't need

11    to go through the list before you do that.  There's an awful amount of

12    time wasted here repeating things that we already know, which you might

13    have to set up if you had a jury determining your case; but where it's

14    this group of Judges who have read the documents you don't need to go back

15    over them to establish whether the witness knows something or not when

16    he's said it in his statement.  So if there's a particular point, focus on

17    the particular point, please.

18            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I am exerting

19    the greatest efforts to make my examinations as efficient as possible.

20       Q.   General, could you please look at paragraph 7 of your statement.

21    It says here that there were two armoured battalions from the command of

22    the 252nd were organized in Tactical Group 252.  Were there also other

23    units from other units of the army within the tactical group?

24       A.   After -- I'm speaking about up to the 5th of April, there was an

25    armoured battalion from the 211th Armoured Brigade and one infantry

Page 20957

 1    battalion from the 2nd Infantry Brigade of the Nis Corps.

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could there be a pause

 3    between question and answer, please, the interpreter did not catch the

 4    beginning of the response.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  We need that answer again, Mr. Cepic, because you

 6    overlapped -- or at least the witness spoke to quickly, I think.  So can

 7    you deal with that.

 8            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I apologise to interpreters

 9    because I speeded up.

10       Q.   [Interpretation] General, what other units were part of TG 252?

11       A.   I'm speaking about the period from the 23rd of March up to the 5th

12    of April, 1999.  Apart from the units listed in paragraph 7, the 252nd

13    Tactical Group also included one armoured battalion from the 211th

14    Armoured Brigade and an infantry battalion from the 2nd Infantry Brigade

15    of the Nis Corps.

16       Q.   Thank you, General, for your clarification.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Do you choose to confine it to the 5th of April

18    because that's when you were no longer the commander?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only provide information about

20    that period.  Later on, I don't know whether units were added on or taken

21    away, I don't know.

22            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

23            Mr. Cepic.

24            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25       Q.   [Interpretation] General, just to clarify a point.  Yesterday you

Page 20958

 1    were asked a few questions about the agreement between the FRY and the

 2    OSCE and the verification mission.  Do you perhaps recall and do you know

 3    whether this agreement referred to the entire territory of the country or

 4    only part of the territory, and did it affect your unit specifically?

 5       A.   At that time I held the post of brigade commander.  This agreement

 6    was part of the defence policy which, according to the constitution, is

 7    conducted by the government.  My knowledge was only of the nature of

 8    information and it did not directly affect my unit; so for that reason I

 9    was not interested in the details of the agreement.

10       Q.   General, you said that in wartime you met General Lazarevic, the

11    commander of the Pristina Corps, two or three times.  Do you perhaps

12    remember that on one occasion you asked to be received by him and why?

13       A.   Yes, I remember very well.  In April I was unable --

14            JUDGE BONOMY:  Just a moment.

15            Mr. Sachdeva.

16            MR. SACHDEVA:  I don't see, Mr. President, how this arises from my

17    cross-examination.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  It probably arises from questions I asked, though.

19            Please continue with your answer.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In April, I was unable to comply

21    with an order issued by the corps commander to report to him daily on the

22    combat-readiness in my unit.  Communication was through the sending of

23    daily operative --

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  You've answered the question.

25            Now, is there another matter that you wish to raise, Mr. Cepic,

Page 20959

 1    because this issue did not emerge from cross-examination or any other

 2    questions.  If that's what you were after, then it was not an appropriate

 3    question.

 4            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just one second, please.

 5                          [Defence counsel confer]

 6            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, just a

 7    brief question following from the previous.

 8       Q.   Did the system of communications -- was it difficult in that

 9    period?

10       A.   Yes, certainly.  There were even rumours that the commander had

11    surrendered or was about to surrender, that there was a capitulation and I

12    was cut off from everybody.  I had no contacts, and I wanted to meet him

13    at any cost to find out whether this was true.

14       Q.   Thank you, General.  Thank you very much.

15            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was my last

16    question.  Thank you.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Mandic, that completes your evidence.  Thank

18    you for coming here to give evidence.  You're now free to leave the

19    courtroom.

20                          [The witness withdrew]

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Cepic, the next witness is?

22            MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, our next witness is

23    Colonel Ljubomir Savic.

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

25            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

Page 20960

 1            MR. SACHDEVA:  Thank you, Mr. President, if I may be excused.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes, very well.  Thank you.

 3            MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, while the next witness is brought in, I

 4    had a question about the statement I just wanted to inquire with the

 5    Court.  There are a number of documents referred to in this statement that

 6    have not been translated; so I take it we will be proceeding in the same

 7    way as yesterday and that these documents will not be admitted into

 8    evidence until translations become available; is that correct?.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes, and indeed if you wish to take issue with

10    whether any should be considered at all, then that's a matter for you.

11            MS. KRAVETZ:  Okay.  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

12                          [The witness entered court]

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  Good morning, Mr. Savic.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Would you please make the solemn declaration to

16    speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

17    you.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

19            I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

20    and nothing but the truth.

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

22            You will now be examined by Mr. Cepic on behalf of Mr. Lazarevic.

23            Mr. Cepic.

24            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25            I would like to call Mr. Usher just to pass this statement to the

Page 20961

 1    witness, please.

 2                          WITNESS:  LJUBOMIR SAVIC

 3                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                          Examination by Mr. Cepic:

 5       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, good morning.  It's a pleasure to see

 6    you.

 7       A.   Thank you.

 8       Q.   Colonel, did you make a statement to the Defence team of

 9    General Lazarevic?

10       A.   Yes, I did.

11       Q.   Would you please take a look at the document which is now before

12    you?

13       A.   Yes, I will.  That's the statement.  The signatures are authentic.

14       Q.   Thank you.  Would you tell me, please, if I were to put the same

15    questions to you today that were put to you when you were making this

16    statement, would you give the same answers to them today?

17       A.   Yes, certainly I would.

18       Q.   Thank you, Colonel.

19            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to tender this

20    statement, it's 5D1392.

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

22            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, are you still in active duty service?

24       A.   Yes, I'm on active duty service, and I'm active in Nis in the

25    command of the land forces of Serbia and my rank is colonel.

Page 20962

 1       Q.   Thank you.  Would you please look at paragraph 4 of your

 2    statement, page 1.

 3       A.   Yes, I can see it.

 4       Q.   Here you describe the action in Voksa.  Can you tell me who was in

 5    command of the army forces.

 6       A.   Of the units --

 7       Q.   Well, to expedite matters, my specific question is:  Who was in

 8    command of your unit?

 9       A.   My immediate subordinate [as interpreted],

10    Colonel Mladen Cirkovic.

11       Q.   Thank you.  Would you tell me whether anyone from the forward

12    command post of the Pristina Corps commanded you?

13       A.   No, it was a single chain of command.  I was subordinate to the

14    brigade commander, he was subordinate to the corps commander.  There was

15    no dual command.

16       Q.   Thank you.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Cepic, in paragraph 4 the English says:  "The

18    order was signed by Colonel Mladen Cirkovic, who was my first superior and

19    who commanded me ..."

20            Now, that must be wrong.

21            MR. CEPIC:  No, no, Your Honour, that is precise because we marked

22    Exhibit Number 6D731, which is signed by --

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  He's just described Colonel Cirkovic as his

24    subordinate, according to the transcript.  Line -- 33, line 11.

25            MR. CEPIC:  If -- with your leave I will clarify right now.

Page 20963

 1            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

 2            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   Colonel, there's an error in the transcript.  For the sake of

 4    precision, who was your superior?  Who issued tasks to you?

 5       A.   As it says here, this order was signed by Colonel Mladen Cirkovic,

 6    who was my immediate superior, and I was his immediate subordinate.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  To go back to these questions, who did you report to?

 8    Who did you brief?

 9       A.   I was constantly in touch with him on a direct line, round the

10    clock.  He had the same map he had given to me and reporting was done by

11    means of that coded map and the phrase book.

12       Q.   Colonel, what was your duty in early 1999?

13       A.   When I handed over the duty of the commander of the third group of

14    the 15th Brigade, as of the 13th of January I think I was transferred to

15    the command of the Pristina Corps and appointed chief of the training

16    department of that command.

17       Q.   In that period, how was training conducted?

18       A.   There was a directive concerning training and there were orders.

19    In view of the specific situation in Kosovo and Metohija, we received --

20    soldiers were sent to us who had already completed the first stage of

21    training.  After one month and 21 days they came to their units in the

22    Pristina Corps, and then we continued training.  That was the unit

23    training stage, and it was training of squads and platoons.

24       Q.   What is your military specialty?

25       A.   After completing the military academy, I became an artillery

Page 20964

 1    rocket unit officer for anti-aircraft defence.

 2       Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  In this officer [as interpreted] we have

 3    heard testimony from Prosecution witnesses, in particular

 4    Colonel Crosland, who said that the use of anti-aircraft guns to target

 5    land targets is not permitted, that it's even banned by the Geneva

 6    Convention.  Can you tell me whether this is correct?

 7       A.   In the course of my training on two occasions I had to pass exams

 8    on international laws of war.  The only limitation on the use of

 9    anti-aircraft guns related to shooting at parachute targets and not all,

10    but only parachutists abandoning damaged aircraft.  They were exempt from

11    the right of shooting with an anti-aircraft gun.  That's how it was up to

12    1999.  If something has been amended in the law since that time, I'm not

13    informed of it.

14       Q.   Just for the sake of clarity, can anti-aircraft guns be used to

15    fire at targets on the ground?

16       A.   In terms of how they're built, the possibility exists, but our

17    training programme also comprises firing at targets on the ground.  This

18    firing is always a drill and is used to prepare our forces for firing at

19    targets in the air.  Whenever there is fire that is opened at targets on

20    the ground, this is considered to be legitimate.

21            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Defence Exhibit

22    5D1243.  The e-court reference in the B/C/S is page 98.  Can we please

23    first see page 1, both in the English and the B/C/S.  Page 1 in the B/C/S,

24    too, please.

25       Q.   General, sir, are you familiar with these rules?

Page 20965

 1       A.   I thank you for this unexpected promotion.

 2       Q.   Well, personally I would really like it if you could become a

 3    general --

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Don't read too much into it because counsel call

 5    each other general.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

 7            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   Colonel, sir, are you familiar with these rules?

 9       A.   Yes, rules for the 20/3 and 55A2B1 anti-aircraft gun, this one has

10    no computer and has three barrels.

11            MR. CEPIC:  Can we have page number 98 in B/C/S and in English,

12    next one.  We need paragraph 258 in English is on second page.

13            [Interpretation] Again, the previous page in the B/C/S.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I see both pages in English.

15            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   Here we go, Colonel.  It's right in front of you.  Can you please

17    look at paragraph 258 of this document, which says that:  "Moving ground

18    targets and fixed targets when necessary can be fired at and water targets

19    as well."  Does that confirm what you said?

20       A.   Yes, and this is clearly defined here.

21            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] You can see that in the English and in

22    the B/C/S if we could please go to page 101.

23       Q.   General, sir, can you see 272 and 273 and so on?

24       A.   If you call me general another time, that probably means I'll

25    eventually become one.

Page 20966

 1            Item 272 -- Paragraph 272 unequivocally shows how targets on the

 2    ground are fired at.  It states quite literally "infantry."

 3       Q.   Thank you very much, Colonel.

 4            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to avoid

 5    opening further documents, this is exactly the same thing that is stated

 6    in the rules and the use of anti-aircraft weapons, 5D1244, and rules

 7    governing the use of the 30/2 millimetres and 5335/7, 5D1245.

 8            Thank you very much.  May I continue?

 9            Can we please have 424 on our screens, 5D424.

10       Q.   And while we're waiting for this document to come up, will you

11    tell me -- there, you see the document, it's on our screens now.  Item 2

12    says:  "The necessity to harmonise and unite forces and PVO, anti-aircraft

13    defence ... "

14            Can you tell us what this means, uniting these in terms of

15    anti-aircraft defence?

16       A.   I did this back in school, PVO systems, anti-aircraft systems, how

17    they're run and how they're controlled.  There's always the tendency that

18    all the equipment that exists in a certain area is used together or

19    united.  There is a difference between troop anti-aircraft defence and

20    territorial anti-aircraft defence.  This was a request that we made to the

21    effect that all these forces in Kosovo and Metohija, the rocket units, the

22    territorial PVO, the fighter planes of the PVO, that these all be united

23    and that a joint location be established where all of these would be

24    together in one place to control the firing of their units.  The objective

25    of all this being to use to the best possible effect the features that

Page 20967

 1    these weapons possess and the systems that are in our possession and to

 2    exchange directly information on what is going on in the air-space.  We

 3    normally referred to this as a joint command post because we were all

 4    independent.

 5       Q.   Thank you very much, Colonel.  Colonel, if you look at paragraph

 6    8 --

 7            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Please go to paragraph 8.

 8       Q.   -- you said that you took over from

 9    Lieutenant-Colonel Milentijevic, who was replaced and arrested because he

10    was held to be personally responsible for the situation in the brigade.

11    What I want to know is did you personally have any of the officers in the

12    brigade replaced when you took up your post?

13       A.   Well, yes, a number of officers were replaced.  Sometimes the

14    reason was that an officer was unable to perform his duty.  I think there

15    were five company commanders that I personally had replaced and also made

16    proposals to the superior command about a particular battalion commander

17    from the 1st Battalion, and General Lazarevic adopted my explanation and a

18    major was dispatched from the corps command to replace this officer.  So

19    this was not a normal situation but this was something that happened every

20    once in a while when a certain officer holding a certain establishment

21    post failed to comply with his duties and obligations under the

22    establishment or his functional obligations, if you like.

23       Q.   Colonel, sir, did you take any measures with regard to any

24    soldiers, ordinary soldiers?

25       A.   Well, yes, whenever the conditions suggested that disciplinary

Page 20968

 1    infractions had been committed, minor infractions, if you like, some

 2    disciplinary infractions that the military disciplinary court would have

 3    been in charge of, I would take measures, I would bring them in, I would

 4    detain them, I would question them, and of course needless to say as the

 5    commander of a wartime Brigade, I had the right to keep soldiers in my own

 6    unit detained for up to 20 days.

 7       Q.   I simply need to ask you this:  How many did you actually have

 8    detained at the time?

 9       A.   This is a step that nobody much liked at the time.  It wasn't a

10    very popular measure, but sometimes there would be as many as 15, 20,

11    sometimes even 30 in detention on a given day.

12       Q.   Colonel, sir, given your level of training, given the positions

13    you held in the corps, can you tell me this:  Did the corps have any 545

14    or 556 or 12-millimetre calibre weapons?

15       A.   I was a head of the training section and I was familiar with all

16    the calibres, all the weapons, and all the equipment that the corps had,

17    some of these NATO calibres some were used by the former U.S.S.R.; and the

18    answer is no under the establishment our officers had 7.65-millimetre

19    pistols --

20       Q.   You don't have to go to all of this.  I just asked you about those

21    calibres and whether they in fact existed at the corps level.

22       A.   The answer is no.

23       Q.   Exhibit 5D1131, please.  Just for the sake of clarity I don't

24    think it comes across clearly on our screens these calibres.  Was this

25    just the corps or the army generally speaking?

Page 20969

 1       A.   There were none in the army, generally speaking.  We have unified

 2    calibres in the army.  The one that we use is 7.62-millimetres times 39.

 3       Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  Colonel, I think we actually have a

 4    translation for this document, at least that's what my associates are

 5    telling me.

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  Would you care to share it with us?

 7            MR. CEPIC:  I'm sorry, I'm just trying to check do we have in

 8    e-court system translation of this document, Your Honour.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  I think --

10            MR. CEPIC:  I'm sorry, I apologise.

11            Your Honour --

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  There appears to be no translation of this.

13            MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, with your leave, I would like to show

14    just one paragraph of this document.  It is so important for Defence.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, no objection is being taken, so --

16            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, sir, will you tell me if you are

18    familiar with this document that you can see on the screen in front of

19    you?

20       A.   Yes, I'm familiar with it.

21       Q.   Tell us what it's about.

22       A.   If you look at item 2.1, I am here reporting to the corps

23    commander on our activities as a brigade.  The period that this dates back

24    to is during an action known as Bajgora Dva.  We searched the ground to

25    the left of --

Page 20970

 1       Q.   Just for the sake of clarity can you please read item 2.1 since

 2    there is no translation, no English translation, the first words

 3    are:  "Situation," please read the document, first what the document is

 4    about in Item 2.1 because time is of the essence here.

 5       A.   I understand.  This is a daily operations report to the brigade

 6    commander in relation to the 8th of May.  Item 2.1, the situation and the

 7    activities of units --

 8       Q.   Slow down, slow down, slow down, slow down, I'll be speeding and

 9    you slow down.

10       A.   Okay.  The item reads:  "During the day we carried out

11    reconnaissance and we searched the Vlahinja Rusalja [phoen] road and the

12    Cimil Dedinje [phoen] road.  Pursuant to the commander's decision as set

13    out in the task known as Bajgora 2.  On that occasion in the Vlahinja

14    village area, trig point 1012, and then the next word is detained, or

15    taken in well that doesn't matter:  183 citizens, 14 men, 71 women, and 19

16    children from the woods" --

17       Q.   Just a moment.  I'm waiting for the interpreters to catch up.

18       A.   "These were sent to the school building in Vlahinja village where

19    they were put up, given firewood to keep warm, and food.  In the area" --

20       Q.   That's all we need.  Thank you.  That will do.

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  Can we interrupt there, Mr. Cepic?

22            MR. CEPIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Savic, we have to have a break at this stage;

24    that will be for half an hour.  While we have the break, would you please

25    leave the courtroom with the usher.

Page 20971

 1                          [The witness stands down]

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  We shall resume at 11.15.

 3                          --- Recess taken at 10.46 a.m.

 4                          --- On resuming at 11.14 a.m.

 5                          [The witness takes the stand]

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Cepic.

 7            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8            If I may, just briefly, I have two documents remaining that I

 9    still have no translation for that I would like to show the witness:  One

10    of these is 5D1132.  Could that document please be brought up.

11       Q.   Colonel, do you recognise this document?

12       A.   It's a little difficult to look at because it's so small.  Yes, I

13    do.

14       Q.   What's it about?

15       A.   This is another daily operations report to the Pristina Corps

16    commander, regular, daily report.

17       Q.   The date?

18       A.   The 10th of May, 1999.

19       Q.   Can we please go to paragraph 4 or item 4.  Will you please read

20    what it says.

21       A.   Sure.  Item 4 reads:  "Morale.  The situation in the units of the

22    58th Light Infantry Brigade is stable.  It is affected in a favourable way

23    by the capturing of the remaining members of the Siptar terrorist forces

24    as well as by the commitment and discipline, as well as maximum compliance

25    with international humanitarian law by our fighters who are responsible

Page 20972

 1    for the safety of over 200 persons of Albanian ethnicity who have been

 2    displaced and are now accommodated at the elementary school building in

 3    Vlahinja village."

 4       Q.   Colonel, sir, what sort of assistance did you provide to the

 5    civilians?

 6       A.   I dispatched a medical team, there were two doctors, a male nurse

 7    and they examined those women and children who had applied for medical

 8    examination.  We brought them firewood, and we brought them food.  The

 9    locals themselves said that they had left behind some food in their homes.

10    So at a later stage they simply thanked us and there was no further need

11    for us to supply them with food.

12       Q.   Thank you.  Did you receive any commendations by the 3rd Army

13    commander of the Pristina Corps for what you did?

14       A.   The corps command received this report, and they in their turn

15    reported to the army commander, and then the army commander sent a

16    telegram to all the army units to point out what we did, and we were

17    commended for our action in writing, which pleased us all a great deal.

18            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go to paragraph 5 of

19    this document.

20       Q.   Can you please read paragraph 5.

21       A.   Sure.  It reads:  "Security situation because of individual cases

22    of theft on private homes as well as desertion, the following were brought

23    in:  A soldier who left his unit without proper authorisation, two

24    soldiers who committed theft from private homes."

25       Q.   Thank you very much.  Did you take vigorous measures in relation

Page 20973

 1    to all those who committed crimes?

 2       A.   Yes, we most certainly did.  There were disciplinary infractions,

 3    there were criminal offences, and in certain cases criminal reports were

 4    filed.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  One last subject to discuss.  I have two questions on

 6    that.  Colonel, did the terrorists treat the wounded and killed in a

 7    monstrous fashion?

 8       A.   Throughout the conflict I viewed them as a legitimate opponent;

 9    however, on the 30th of May during the fighting near the Kolina feature,

10    which is at a particular point along the Mitrovica-Klina road, there was

11    this one particular wounded soldier whom they abducted from what we

12    referred to as no-man's-land .  The commander on the other side reported

13    on this in the following way:  We had been monitoring the radio

14    communications, and that's how we found out about this.  He said that he

15    took one of my men and he was asking his superior officer whether he

16    should bring this man to him.  And then his superior officer said, No,

17    just bring me his head.

18            Two days later, as we continued fighting, further down the

19    territory we found Ivan Milosevic's headless body.  He was naked and we

20    ascertained that he had a total of 29 stab wounds all over his body.

21    Regardless of this, whenever we captured any of their fighters, we would

22    dispatch them immediately to the Mitrovica hospital and there are

23    documents to show this.

24       Q.   Finally, can we please have 5D133.  [In English] 5D1133, please.

25            [Interpretation] Do you recognise this document, Colonel?

Page 20974

 1       A.   Yes.  This is a daily operations report.  The date is the 12th of

 2    May, 1999.

 3            MR. CEPIC:  Could we see count 5, I think that is on the second

 4    page.

 5       Q.   [Interpretation] Can you please read this for us, the first

 6    paragraph of item 5, paragraph 5.

 7       A.   Sure.  "All the security measures that had been planned and

 8    ordered are being properly implemented across the units in the sector

 9    covered by the 3rd Light Infantry Battalion in Vidusic [phoen] village a

10    terrorist was wounded and was sent for treatment to the Kosovska Mitrovica

11    hospital."

12       Q.   Thank you very much.  Did you at all times provide medical

13    assistance to those captured?

14       A.   Yes, certainly.

15       Q.   Thank you very much, Colonel.

16            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours,

17    that was my last question.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

19            Mr. Ivetic.

20            MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                          Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

22       Q.   Good morning, Colonel Savic, my name is Dan Ivetic and I will be

23    having some questions for you on behalf of Sreten Lukic.  Now, first of

24    all, I'd like to have you illustrate for us some matters.  In paragraphs

25    15 through 18 of your statement you discuss in some detail the placement

Page 20975

 1    and activities of both your troops and the MUP forces taking part in the

 2    anti-terrorist action Bajgora Bare.

 3            MR. IVETIC:  At this time I would ask the usher's assistance

 4    because I will be handing a hard-copy of P1975 in the Serbian which is the

 5    order for this action and also an English copy, which I could ask to have

 6    5.2 on the ELMO; so that while I'm showing you the map of e-court so if

 7    anyone wants, they can follow the English translation on the ELMO.

 8    Hopefully we can finish this and move on to the two other areas I have to

 9    question you on.

10       Q.   While we're waiting for that, Colonel, as I indicate you have gone

11    into some detail in these paragraphs, what I would like to ask you about

12    and ask you to indicate on the map, and I'll leave it to you to chose to

13    colour.  The map, is P615, page 18 -- page 8 of the same -- or 18, pardon

14    me, of the same.

15                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ivetic, although you can give the witness hard

17    copies and he can have more than one at a time, we can't see more than one

18    thing at a time.  I don't know how you're going to do this.  If you're

19    meaning us to flash back and forward, then fine.

20            MR. IVETIC:  No, I guess --

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  I'll --

22            MR. IVETIC:  -- I'll read the English so that we can follow long

23    with what the Colonel has in front of him, I think; but for that I'll need

24    the English copy back if I could ask the usher.  I apologise.

25       Q.   Colonel, if you look at section 5.2 of this "zapovest" order for

Page 20976

 1    the Bajgora Bare action, it describes the blockade formed by one of your

 2    neighbouring friendly forces, the 15th Armoured Brigade, and the 5.2 in

 3    the "zapovest" it says:  "The 15th Armoured Brigade 1st Motorised

 4    Battalion will set up a blockade along the line of the village of

 5    Breznice, south of Samodreza, village of Golubija, village of Smrekovnica

 6    and thereon it goes to describe that this was for purposes of preventing

 7    the spillover of terrorist forces from the village of Bajgora into Kosovo

 8    Polje."

 9            If you could please mark on the map, which I don't know if we have

10    the map up yet, P615, page 18, I apologise?

11            JUDGE BONOMY:  So it's the map you want on the e-court screen, is

12    it?

13            MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

14                          [Defence counsel confer]

15            MR. IVETIC:

16       Q.   And, Colonel --

17            MR. IVETIC:  Can we zoom in on this section of the map around

18    Vucitrn which is in the upper middle of P615 to -- there we go.

19       Q.   Colonel, would you be in a position to mark on this map the

20    blockade force -- the positions on the blockade formed by the 15th

21    Armoured Brigade as set forth in 5.2 of the "zapovest," decision, and also

22    based upon your personal knowledge and recollections of this action?

23       A.   Yes, I can't find Breznice, but the position of the brigade, its

24    mechanised battalion, was to the right of the road, if you look at the

25    Pristina-Mitrovica road.  So it would be around here and then all the way

Page 20977

 1    up to Dreza itself.  Specifically there is Golubija.  My left wing was

 2    adjacent to this battalion in Kicici village.

 3            MR. IVETIC:  Let the record reflect that the dashed or broken line

 4    drawn initially was the blockade line and the solid line perpendicular to

 5    it in the upper left-hand corner is the line that was written in last --

 6    that was written in last by the witness pertaining to his side.

 7       Q.   Now -- one moment, Colonel.

 8                          [Defence counsel confer]

 9            MR. IVETIC:

10       Q.   Colonel, the "zapovest" also talks about the village of Samodreza.

11    I do not see that that is incorporated in the map you have drawn, is

12    that ...

13            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, an objection.

14    This witness cannot furnish relevant information on the positions of the

15    15th Brigade.  This is mere speculation which is based on a document.  He

16    is the commander of the 58th Brigade.  I believe he is able to do no more

17    than to draw the positions and the movements of that brigade.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  You will --

19            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] We had the same problem with

20    General Nikolic --

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  You will need to deal with that in re-examination

22    because he was asked if he would be in a position to mark it, and he said

23    yes; so let's continue, Mr. Ivetic.

24            MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

25       Q.   Colonel, just to be sure that your recollection and the

Page 20978

 1    illustration are complete, there is a reference to the region of the

 2    village of Samodreza.  Is that description in the "zapovest" incorporated

 3    in this illustration on the map with respect to the line of the blockade

 4    where it says Grezice [phoen] village, village of Samodreza, village of

 5    Golubija, village of Smrekovnica.

 6       A.   Yes.  I tried to explain where the line would have been in

 7    relation to the Pristina-Mitrovica road.  I wasn't there myself and, of

 8    course, I can't mark the position of each unit.  I should perhaps point

 9    out that I'm speaking in roughest of terms.  Maybe it's not exactly the

10    location.  You can't see all the villages in this map, but I'm talking

11    about my right-hand neighbour.

12       Q.   And with respect to other neighbouring forces, another one that is

13    not mentioned in your -- in your statement is the 54th Military

14    Territorial Detachment which I believe was subordinated to the 15th

15    Armoured Brigade.  Do you actually have knowledge of where they were

16    deployed in the area surrounding Vucitrn sector; if not, just let me know,

17    and I can move on?

18       A.   I really don't think I could be definite about the position of the

19    54th Detachment.  Some of their elements were close to Cicavica and there

20    was one unit that I came across during the fighting on my right wing near

21    Kicici, but they moved about as the situation required.  I can't be

22    definite about their precise location.

23       Q.   Now, Colonel, with respect to this particular action, that is to

24    say the time-period of this action, which was I believe mid-April of 1999,

25    would you be in a position to mark the known locations of armed resistance

Page 20979

 1    from terrorist forces that were encountered, perhaps using a different

 2    colour, which again I would leave to your discretion which colour to

 3    choose, since I know those are very important in terms of military map

 4    drafting.

 5       A.   I'm talking about the second half of April.  This action was

 6    supposed to begin on the 27th, the 26th, or the 27th -- actually, it says

 7    here when it was completed.  Siptar terrorist rebels were holding a

 8    sizeable share of the territory at the time.  We should lower the map to

 9    show the north of this map to show the direction of Bajgora and Bare.  If

10    I can use blue because that's what I'm used to.

11                          [Defence counsel confer]

12            MR. IVETIC:

13       Q.   We can't lower the map.  Are there any on this sector that's now

14    presently visible that you could mark for us; if not, then I will, I

15    guess, save this image and perhaps move to the other sector on the map?

16       A.   Before we zoomed in, I could actually see the northern section.  I

17    can mark the Siptar terrorist forces in my own area.

18       Q.   I take from your answer, sir, that you are not in a position to

19    identify the terrorist forces that were in the southern part of your --

20    south of your forces where the blockade actually was?  Is that -- am I

21    understanding correctly?

22       A.   I can.  I am in a position to do that in relation to my zone to

23    the south of Kosovska Mitrovica.  These would be positions as they were

24    before the Bajgora action commenced.

25       Q.   And as far as positions those would be only with respect to your

Page 20980

 1    zone?  You're not representing that there were no forces in the zone of

 2    the blockade; is that correct?

 3       A.   These are the Siptar terrorist forces in the area covered by the

 4    58th Light Infantry Brigade that's marked in blue and then further up to

 5    the north.

 6       Q.   Thank you, sir.

 7            MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I guess could we have this saved as an

 8    IC number, and I think I will move on.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be IC169, Your Honours.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

11                          [Defence counsel confer]

12            MR. IVETIC:

13       Q.   All right.  Colonel, let's see, I can -- you can keep that order

14    in front of you but I will not, I think, be referring to it again in our

15    cross.  With respect to another topic you discuss at paragraph 11 of your

16    statement you discuss these military territorial detachments.  I would

17    like to ask you first briefly what specific detachments and from which

18    regions were either in your zone of responsibility or resubordinated to

19    you at some point in time during 1999?

20       A.   The military territory division does not coincide with division

21    into political communities so that in the zone of my brigade there are

22    following detachments resubordinated from the military territorial area of

23    Kosovska Mitrovica, 180th, 270th, and 271st; from that same military

24    department of Kosovska Mitrovica the 54th was resubordinated to the 15th

25    Armoured Brigade.

Page 20981

 1       Q.   Colonel, for purposes of the transcript I thought I heard you say

 2    in the Serbian the 56th military territorial --

 3       A.   56th is missing.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  And now with respect to these "odreds," at least the

 5    ones that were resubordinated -- strike that.

 6            The 54th was resubordinated to the 15th motorised -- Armoured

 7    Brigade of the VJ --

 8       A.   To the 15th Armoured Brigade.

 9       Q.   Now, with respect to the remaining four "odreds," would I be

10    correct that they came from --

11            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ivetic, please use the English expression.

12    It's -- makes the transcript impossible for us to read if you use

13    expressions which are Serb and there's no translation available to us.

14            MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, Your Honour.  I'm listening to the

15    witness rather than listening to myself when I say those things.

16       Q.   With respect to these remaining four military territorial

17    detachments, am I correct that they come from -- the 56th comes from Zubin

18    Potok, the 180th from Kosovska Mitrovica, the 270th from Zvecan and the

19    271th from Leposavic?

20       A.   Yes, you're right.

21       Q.   And do you recall the dates at which they were resubordinated to

22    you, these four.  I'm talking about just these four detachments?

23       A.   Beginning of May, 1st, 2nd, or the 3rd.

24       Q.   And would you agree that up until the time-period that they became

25    resubordinated to your brigade, these military territorial detachments

Page 20982

 1    were engaged in tasks exclusively pursuant to the orders of the military

 2    district in Pristina and/or the military department in Kosovska Mitrovica?

 3       A.   They were under the command, until then the commander of the

 4    military department of Kosovska Mitrovica.

 5       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Do you recall the numerical strength of these

 6    units that were under the command of the military department in Kosovska

 7    Mitrovica prior to being resubordinated to your brigade?

 8       A.   Not down to the last man, but the 56th and the 180th were company

 9    strong, equivalent of a battalion.  The 270th and the 271st were platoons

10    equivalent to a company, which means the first two had 200 to 300 and the

11    other two had 100 to 120, maybe 150 men.

12       Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  And with respect to your own brigade, I know

13    that it probably fluctuated during the war, but do you recall the manpower

14    of your brigade as well as the breakdown between active and reserve

15    components for the same at any point in time -- can you give us a

16    reference for any point in time during the war?

17       A.   This whole unit was not active, our brigade, that is, until the

18    beginning of the war, it was not active.  And from the beginning of the

19    mobilisation drive, although mobilisation is an uninterrupted process, it

20    was 70 per cent of establishment; up to the end of the war, we achieved 92

21    per cent of the establishment.  Or in numbers 1400 to 1900 men together

22    with resubordinated detachments, and there was also one artillery

23    battalion of anti-aircraft defence that was resubordinated.  I had a

24    maximum of 3500 men under my command.

25       Q.   Thank you.  You've already mentioned the anti-aircraft unit so I

Page 20983

 1    can actually skip two of my questions.  Now, at paragraph 11 of your

 2    statement among the other assignments or tasks that you describe for your

 3    brigade, you have securing of main roadways.  Can you identify for us

 4    which roadways are in question and how this assignment was to be

 5    undertaken.

 6       A.   The priority road was Kosovska Mitrovica-Sipolje-Gornja Klina

 7    towards Srbica and towards Pec respectively.  It was the hardest to

 8    secure, and in addition to that, there was the road Kosovska

 9    Mitrovica-Zubin Potok, which was in jeopardy in one period, and there were

10    two more roads in my zone Kosovska Mitrovica-Vucitrn-Pristina and Kosovska

11    Mitrovica-Leposavic-Raska.

12       Q.   Okay.  You identify that the roadways were in jeopardy, and I

13    think in your statement you also discuss some of the hardships faced in

14    the area.  I would just like to highlight a couple of documents relating

15    to that.  If we can have 6D1489 up in e-court.

16            Sir, I think you will see this to be a Pristina Corps command

17    combat report dated the 17th of May, 1999, and on the -- I believe on the

18    second page of the original, item 2.1, I believe you will see here a

19    reference to members of your brigade carried out an anti-terrorist action

20    clearing part of the surroundings of Kosovska Mitrovica of terrorists, and

21    specifically we're talking about the sectors of the villages of Zabare,

22    Tamnik, Sipovo.  Do you recall how strong or how fierce of a resistance

23    from the overall terrorist forces there was in this area at this time that

24    this action was underway?

25       A.   This document does not speak of their defence; instead, they

Page 20984

 1    launched an action to cut off the road Mitrovica-Gornja Klina.  They

 2    infiltrated their forces into these settlements, and at one point they cut

 3    off the road to which leads from the centre of the road -- centre of the

 4    town towards Sipolje and onwards.  During that action, several civilians

 5    were killed and one of my military policemen.  He was shot at from a

 6    house.  There is a report covering this incident.  I cannot recall it

 7    precisely, but this report exists.  A 15-year-old boy grabbed the gun from

 8    the military policeman whom he had killed and ran away.  We located that

 9    group later, and with the assistance of PJP units we managed to smash a

10    part of them, whereas another part escaped across the border.

11       Q.   Thank you, sir. Am I correct that this region described here was

12    the scene of earlier confrontations between -- I apologise, sir, the --

13    apparently I'm overlapping with the translation.

14            Am I correct that this region that we've described here was the

15    scene of earlier and, in fact, constant confrontations between the

16    terrorist forces and the security forces, that is to say the forces of the

17    state, in the time-period leading up to this action in May of 1999?

18       A.   Yes, yes, certainly.  But in that period the prior to was to

19    remove the danger from Bajgora towards the old square; and later after the

20    completion of Bajgora 2 action, but also because of those

21    ever-more-frequent actions, we proceeded to resolve the problem in

22    Kosovska Mitrovica itself.

23       Q.   While we're focused on Kosovska Mitrovica, I'd like to show you

24    another document to see if you are -- if you have any knowledge that you

25    can assist us with this document, 6D1098, which is a, as you'll see, an

Page 20985

 1    order from the Kosovska Mitrovica military department dated I believe the

 2    8th of May, 1999, regarding orders for maintaining of law and order.  And

 3    once the document is up before you I would ask if, in fact, you are

 4    familiar with this document.  And if you go on the last -- the second page

 5    or the last page I believe it will list, I think, the recipient

 6    information for the same.

 7       A.   What am I supposed to answer?

 8       Q.   Do you recall receiving this document or are you aware of the

 9    contents of this document detailing efforts to uphold law and order in the

10    region of Kosovska Mitrovica?

11       A.   Yes, I am familiar with the document.  It follows from the order

12    of the corps commander.  When the detachments were resubordinated to me,

13    then the commander of the military department was appointed commander of

14    the garrison.  And order and discipline in the garrison was within his

15    competence so that in that sense all of us were not subordinated but

16    answerable to him because it was his legal obligation to remind us about

17    the need to comply with order and discipline.

18       Q.   All right.  I think that helps us with this document.  Now, sir,

19    I'd like to move on to try and finish up if I can soon to Exhibit P2809,

20    which is dated the 25th of April, 1999, strictly confidential number

21    455-183.  This is a document from the command of the Pristina Corps

22    relating to engagement of MUP forces.

23            First of all, sir, do you recall receiving this document?

24       A.   Yes, I remember it.

25       Q.   And would you agree that parts 1, 2, and 3 of the document,

Page 20986

 1    paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 advise the recipients of what -- strike that.

 2            Would you agree that parts 1, 2, and 3 of the document regulate

 3    which MUP units can be utilised in combat activities?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Now, I would direct your attention to paragraph 2 which references

 6    a plan for engagement identified as attachment 2.  Since we don't have

 7    attachment 2 in e-court on this exhibit, I would ask that you be shown

 8    6D1023, and that's a short document but I think you can analyse the same

 9    and let me know whether, in fact, this is the attachment 2 to the previous

10    document which you received from your superior command.  This is a plan

11    for engagement of combined structures I believe is the translation.  I

12    don't have the English translation in front of me.

13            MR. IVETIC:  And if we can just have the second page so the

14    witness can have the benefit of the entire attachment, particularly the

15    portion dealing with his brigade.

16       Q.   Colonel, can you verify, in fact, that this was the plan for

17    engagement that you received accompanying the previous exhibit listing the

18    35th -- 35th Detachment of the PJP as being the forces foreseen for

19    utilisation by your brigade?

20       A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this.  It's an expression of those

21    evaluations that a ground aggression is possible and that all forces in

22    one zone be combined under one commander.  Here the units of the MUP,

23    specialised units, and other units which were under the secretariat of the

24    interior could be subordinated in a particular zone.  Under this order I

25    made my own document.

Page 20987

 1       Q.   I can go to that right now, sir.  If it would help -- I believe I

 2    have your response at 6D1056, so perhaps we could short-circuit some of my

 3    preliminary questions if we go to that document we can then have you

 4    verify whether in fact that document is the document you're talking about,

 5    first of all, dated the 30th of April, 1999.  Is this the -- is this your

 6    own document that you talk about that is a response to the plan that we

 7    just looked at?

 8       A.   Just a second.  This is the 30th of April and the other one was --

 9       Q.   25th of April I believe was the last document -- yeah.

10       A.   So based on the previous document I drafted by own order and also

11    on the map this was shown.  I remember that the detachment got the

12    assignment to carry out its regular tasks in the peacetime assignment.

13    But in case of a ground invasion by NATO it would be engaged in the most

14    threatened area along the most threatened axis.

15       Q.   Okay.  And if we can look at the last page of this exhibit, I

16    believe that we'll see the 35th Detachment of the PJP and the tasks that

17    you -- that you -- that you gave that formation.  And I would just -- if

18    you could verify that then I think your testimony is complete in that

19    regard and I'll move on.  Again, that's the last page of this exhibit.  It

20    should be -- one moment.

21            We're having some difficulty in e-court.  Just for sake of

22    completeness, I think I'll have to have our -- have the document in

23    e-court looked at, but if I could have the usher show the witness a hard

24    copy of the same, my hard copy is five pages long, whereas the e-court

25    appears to be just one page long, and if you could show him the last page

Page 20988

 1    I think he can quickly confirm that in fact the section for the 35th

 2    Detachment of the PJP is there and it comports with the section that you

 3    just testified about.

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Have you seen more than one page of this document?

 5            MS. KRAVETZ:  No, I was just going to mention that, Your Honour, I

 6    have only seen the copy that's in e-court.

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  If there's only one page, that must be all that you

 8    uploaded, Mr. Ivetic.

 9            MR. IVETIC:  That's what it sounds like.  I'll have to probably

10    upload a whole new exhibit.  I have no problem with the hard copy being

11    passed on to the Prosecution.  It's -- unfortunately.

12            MS. KRAVETZ:  Do we have a version in English though because

13    unfortunately I don't read B/C/S?

14            MR. IVETIC:  I would have to check.  I see we have a translation

15    of what was in e-court.  It should have been all sent together.  But

16    things that are one exhibit don't always stay one exhibit when dealing

17    with --

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Cepic, do you have a problem with this?

19            MR. CEPIC:  Yes, Your Honour, also I don't have that document and

20    I would like to see the other pages.

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, you're going to have the advantage over

22    Ms. Kravetz.

23            Can we have on the ELMO the part that you're going to refer to,

24    Mr. Ivetic?

25            MR. IVETIC:  Absolutely.  It's the last page.

Page 20989

 1       Q.   And first of all, sir, would you confirm for us whether, in fact,

 2    this appears to be attachment 2 as referenced on the first page of your

 3    document, a plan for engagement of joint -- of combined structures it

 4    actually should be although the English says, I think, "joint"?

 5       A.   In the course of execution of actions, they would be a combined

 6    unit.  That's the attachment, the plan of engagement.

 7       Q.   Okay.  And does the -- when you testified just a few moments ago

 8    as to the tasking of the PJP detachment, is that accurately reflected

 9    here; that is to say, is this the tasking that you're talking about?  Is

10    this document -- the document that you were referencing earlier?

11       A.   Yes.  Yes.  So they have to accomplish coordinated action with

12    military territorial detachment --

13            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness slow down when he's reading

14    this.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, just stop for a moment, please.  The

16    interpreter has -- is unable to keep up with your pace of reading, please.

17    So, Mr. Savic, will have to read that again and read it more slowly.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

19            So there are several assignments listed here.  Do you want me to

20    read them all out?

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  It's a matter for Mr. Ivetic what he wants you to

22    read.

23            MR. IVETIC:  I think in fairness to the Prosecution I should have

24    him read it so they know what this section of the document is since I

25    don't have an English translation of the same.  I apologise for the

Page 20990

 1    awkwardness of this, but I think that's the only way to be fair to

 2    everyone.

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, please read it then, Mr. Savic.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this document there are certain

 5    spelling mistakes, but I'll deal with that.  So it begins:  "Parts of the

 6    35th Detachment of PJP -- sorry, 53rd PJP Detachment have certain

 7    assignments:  Establish command and coordinated action with the 280th,"

 8    and that's a mistake, "and uninterrupted functions of communications

 9    systems KM in Kosovo and Metohija, planned execution of defence in keeping

10    with the decision of the brigade commander in the area Svinjare Halaca,

11    Bair warehouse in coordinated action with the 53rd PJP Detachment.

12    Then:  "Detecting and destroying the remaining Siptar forces on following

13    the routes:  Vidusic, Bare, Bajgora, and Trstena, Cuca, Kovacica.

14            Next:  "Carry out continuous gathering of intelligence, processing

15    of that intelligence, and report to the brigade commander about the

16    enemies."

17            Next:  "Participating in the sanitization of the battle-field."

18            Next:  "Take measures to prevent disturbances, breaches of

19    discipline, looting, robberies, desertion, arson, maltreatment, and other

20    types of criminal acts within the units and in the territory of the area

21    of responsibility as well as comply with the provisions of the

22    international law of warfare."

23            Next and the last:  "Extend the necessary assistance with regard

24    to the return of the population that had fled back to their homes,

25    suggesting to them safer places than the area affected by combat

Page 20991

 1    activities."

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ivetic, what is this document?  I'm afraid I've

 3    lost my way here.

 4            MR. IVETIC:  This is, if I can speak and if I --

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah, just you tell me what it is.

 6            MR. IVETIC:  It is a document authored by this witness in response

 7    to the previous exhibit, and this document sets forth his plan for

 8    engagement of forces within his zone of responsibility.  And the -- I fast

 9    forwarded to the last page which is the page that deals specifically with

10    the MUP.  The four prior pages which I think the witness can verify relate

11    to other forces in his zone of responsibility, including the military

12    territorial detachments that we've referenced earlier.

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah.

14            Mr. Savic, is this drafted in the understanding that there will be

15    resubordination of MUP units to the VJ?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Throughout the war we were

17    expecting that this would come through.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  And at one stage there you read:  "Establish

19    command and coordinated action with the 280th ..." And you said "that's a

20    mistake."

21            What was the mistake?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says:  "With 1180th and 280th."

23    1180th is the mistake.  It should be 180th and 280th is correct, actually.

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

25            Mr. Ivetic.

Page 20992

 1            MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 2            I'm just checking to see whether, in fact, the English transcript

 3    coincides with the -- with what the witness just said.

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Sorry.

 5            MR. IVETIC:

 6       Q.   Thank you for reading that document, again I apologise for not

 7    having translation of the same.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  What is the interpreter's correction?

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure anymore whether it's

10    the 270th or the 280th.

11            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Savic, you're referring there to two organs,

12    one is the 180th and the other is the 280th; is that correct?

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said it was a

14    mistake.  It says 1180.  This first 1 is a mistake, so it's 180th Military

15    Territorial Detachment.  280th does not exist; it should be 270th.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  It's that point that was unclear and you've now

17    clarified.  Thank you.

18            Mr. Ivetic.

19            MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

20       Q.   Now, just to move on, you talk -- strike that.

21            I want to ask you about some activities that occurred after this

22    plan for resubordination and engagement was promulgated.  Specifically,

23    first of all, there is an action known as Prekaze, which I believe you do

24    discuss in your statement, although it's not named as such.  Are you

25    familiar with this anti-terrorist action under the name Prekaz?

Page 20993

 1       A.   The action's name is actually Prekaze.

 2       Q.   And am I correct that this is the action that you describe at

 3    paragraph 23 of your statement that actually took place at the end of May

 4    1999?

 5       A.   Yes, that's what I stated in paragraph 23.

 6       Q.   And would you agree with respect to this action that both the 35th

 7    and the 36th PJP Detachments participated in the action alongside the VJ

 8    forces that were there?

 9       A.   I can guarantee for the 35th Detachment which was with me, they

10    were together with me, and we had very fierce firing from the other side.

11    So as it says here, not nothing happened as planned.

12       Q.   And is that due to several factors, including the desertion of the

13    7th Infantry Brigade and the attempt at cutting off the roadway by the

14    terrorist forces?

15       A.   Yes.  There was several unfavourable factors, unfavourable for our

16    forces.  It wasn't the entire brigade, but a detachment from that brigade

17    which was my right-hand neighbour, looking in the north-south direction,

18    left its positions.  That area was vacated, so the Siptar terrorist forces

19    filled it very quickly and they threatened the road from the village of

20    Kucica to Brabonjic wishing to cut it off in that area.  There was very

21    fierce counter-fire from the direction of Hercegovo village in the

22    direction of Sipovo and the Zmic feature.  From there, they fired on the

23    road and on vehicles and units moving along it.  Therefore, we were unable

24    to implement this and I informed the corps commander, General Lazarevic,

25    about these new circumstances, and he accepted our arguments in favour of

Page 20994

 1    modifying the order that had already been issued.

 2       Q.   Okay.  I've just one more question with respect to this particular

 3    action that I will try to make as simple as possible.  Am I correct that

 4    the 35th PJP Detachment that was engaged in this coordinated combat with

 5    your forces did not -- did -- strike that.

 6            That they did engage in the coordinated and concerted combat

 7    alongside your forces; that is, they went according to this modified plan

 8    that you presented?

 9       A.   Yes.  We immediately with the commander of the detachment took

10    appropriate measures to deal with the danger, the threat of cutting off

11    the main road used to supply the forces in Kosovo and Metohija.  So he

12    engaged his companies in the Brabonjic-Kucica axis.  And as my units were

13    suffering fierce attacks by the Siptar terrorist forces, he responded to

14    my request and engaged two of his companies at the very moment when the

15    late Milosevic was killed at the Zmic feature.

16       Q.   Okay.  Now, I'd like to highlight a couple more areas and discuss

17    the terrorist forces and strength in those areas within your zone.  If I

18    can have exhibit P2006 up on the screen.  Colonel, I think you'll see that

19    this is a combat report dated the 9th of May, 1999, and at section 2 on

20    page 2 in the original Serb, and I think it's also in the English

21    translation, you'll see that it describes that your forces along with the

22    125th Motorised Brigade and the 7th Infantry and 354th Infantry Brigades

23    participated in a blockade of a region where the MUP was clearing the

24    terrain and engaging the terrorist forces in accord with a -- with a

25    decision of the commander of the Pristina Corps.

Page 20995

 1            Do you recall what region this action was undertaken in?  And if

 2    it helps you any, I think under 2.7 it does reference some of the -- one

 3    of the participants, the 7th Infantry Brigade engaging and killing a

 4    terrorist in the sector of Zablace.

 5       A.   No, I don't recall.  The 7th Brigade was to the south.  In this

 6    period, that is, the 8th of May, we were engaged in the Bajgora 2 action

 7    to the north of where they were.  But the same task that is mentioned in

 8    item 2.1 --

 9       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...  in your testimony

10    previously.  Let me just check one more detail, Colonel.

11                          [Defence counsel confer]

12            MR. IVETIC:

13       Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  I have no further documents or questions for

14    you.  Thank you for your time.

15            THE WITNESS:  Thank you, too.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Savic, you will now be cross-examined by the

17    Prosecutor, Ms. Kravetz.

18            Ms. Kravetz.

19            MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                          Cross-examination by Ms. Kravetz:

21       Q.   Good morning, Colonel.

22       A.   Good morning.

23       Q.   I believe you still have a copy with you of P1975, which is an

24    order dated 15th April 1999.  I wanted to ask you some questions regarding

25    this order.  You referred to it in paragraph 15 of your statement, and you

Page 20996

 1    say in your statement that you received this order along with other

 2    annexes in an envelope from the Pristina Corps command; is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4       Q.   You had the time to review this order when you were preparing your

 5    statement and today in court, so you have seen that at the top of this

 6    order it bears the heading "Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija" and

 7    there's also a typed signature at the end of the order which says the

 8    same, "Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija," correct?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   When you received this order in April of 1999, was this the first

11    time you had seen such an order in this type of format or were you

12    familiar with these types of orders bearing the heading "Joint Command"?

13       A.   This document was already in the brigade command when I arrived,

14    and that was the first time I had seen it with this heading, as stated

15    here, Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija, and that was the first time I

16    came across it.

17       Q.   I understand this is the first time you came across this specific

18    order, but were you familiar with orders in this type of format bearing

19    the heading "Joint Command"?

20       A.   No.  It was then that I first saw this kind of document with the

21    heading "Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija" in the course of the war.

22       Q.   And did you know at the time what was the Joint Command?

23       A.   At the time we interpreted this to mean combined or joint

24    commanding of units.  So if I've managed to explain this, it is a Joint

25    Command of forces of the MUP and the army.

Page 20997

 1       Q.   Does that mean that generally speaking that orders that involved

 2    joint operations between the MUP and the army would bear this heading,

 3    Joint Command, is that what you're saying?

 4       A.   Those are my words, yes, but I don't think that later on we

 5    received any documents bearing the head Joint Command for Kosovo and

 6    Metohija in the form of orders that is.

 7       Q.   You went into quite some detail in your statement about how you

 8    went about implementing this order, and I'm curious to know, did you ask

 9    your commander, the Pristina Corps commander, why he had sent this order

10    to you bearing the heading "Joint Command," why you were receiving

11    instructions in this type of format?

12       A.   No, I didn't ask him that, but I think you'll see in my statement

13    that pursuant to this order the commander of the 35th Detachment and I as

14    the brigade commander went to Pristina together to ask for approval to

15    carry out this task.  The approval came from the instructions and the work

16    of commands.  When a subordinate commander understands a decision by his

17    superior, he issues his own decision and he's duty-bound to ask for

18    approval from his superior.  That's why I didn't pay special attention to

19    the heading "Joint Command."

20       Q.   So you did ask your superior about this order and why it had the

21    heading "Joint Command" if I understand correctly?

22       A.   No, no, you misunderstood me.  I didn't put the question to him

23    why is this heading -- why does it read "Joint Command."  I simply ask for

24    his approval to implement item 5.3.  I was not especially concerned about

25    the heading.  It didn't excite my attention, it didn't cause me to wonder

Page 20998

 1    what it meant.

 2       Q.   But as you have seen in this order in paragraph -- item number 13,

 3    the second sentence which is at the end of the order, it expressly says

 4    that it is the Joint Command for Kosovo based in Pristina, which is to

 5    command and control all units in the course of combat operations.  When

 6    you read this, this didn't strike you as odd, that there was a reference

 7    to the Joint Command commanding the combat operations in Kosovo?

 8       A.   No, it didn't strike me as odd.  If there was a decision on

 9    resubordination, then it was logical for the MUP command to be

10    incorporated into the command of the Pristina Corps and to create some

11    sort of Joint Command.  At the time it didn't strike me as illogical.

12       Q.   You told us you had worked for sometime, a short time at corps

13    command in Pristina.  Are you aware who was in charge of or which

14    department was in charge of drafting combat orders that were sent to

15    troops on the ground?

16       A.   Yes, it was done by the department for staff affairs and training.

17    The chief of that department at the time was Colonel Radojko Stefanovic;

18    he was my immediate superior.

19       Q.   And as you say in your statement that this order came in an

20    envelope for the Pristina Corps command.  So would it be correct to say

21    that this order if it had come from the Pristina Corps command, it would

22    have been drafted in the same department as other combat orders that were

23    sent to VJ units on the ground?

24       A.   Yes, yes, I do.

25       Q.   So the drafter of those orders would have been Colonel Stefanovic,

Page 20999

 1    who was as you mentioned the chief of the department of staff affairs and

 2    training?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And during your time at the Pristina Corps command in Pristina you

 5    never came across any such type of order bearing the heading "Joint

 6    Command"?  Mr. Stefanovic never gave you a copy of such order?  You never

 7    saw it in the office?

 8       A.   Your Honours, to avoid confusion, I was from that department with

 9    my section for training.  When wartime actions started was something else.

10    Sometimes I was an office courier taking post to Metohija or the forward

11    command post.  I participated in receiving units arriving from other units

12    of the Army of Serbia in Kosovo, so that for the last three weeks in March

13    or the last week in March and the first two weeks in April, I was on the

14    ground; I was not in the command.  That's why I don't how things developed

15    in the staff or how things were done and in this department.

16       Q.   Okay, so I understand that your question to my question is no.  Do

17    you know when Colonel Stefanovic was appointed to that position of chief

18    of department of staff affairs and training?

19       A.   I arrived in that department on the 13th of January and I think he

20    was appointed around the new year, around the 1st of January to the

21    command of the Pristina Corps.

22       Q.   And do you recall who was his predecessor prior to January 1999?

23    Whom did he replace in that position?

24       A.   Colonel Djakovic, who later became a general.

25       Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  I want to move on a bit from this.  We are

Page 21000

 1    continue with this document that's there before you --

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Just before you move on, we've had a variety of

 3    expressions of understanding of the concept of "Joint Command."  I want to

 4    be absolutely certain that I have not misunderstood you when you say that

 5    it was perfectly logical to create some sort of Joint Command if the MUP

 6    was to be resubordinated to the Pristina Corps.  Have I understood that

 7    correctly?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's my standpoint that it

 9    would be logical for a Joint Command to be composed of officers both from

10    the MUP and from the army.  Your Honour, when I received detachments who

11    were resubordinated to me from the Mitrovica military department, their

12    representative or assistant commander for military territorial detachments

13    joined my unit.  So it would have been quite logical to unify this in that

14    way.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

16            Ms. Kravetz.

17            MS. KRAVETZ:

18       Q.   And if I can follow-up on that question.  You referred to this

19    order saying that it was an order for joint actions between the VJ and the

20    MUP.  Your commander, General Lazarevic, could not on his own decide on

21    the -- of joint actions with the MUP; is that correct?  I mean, there

22    would have had to have been some sort of coordination or planning at a

23    higher level than yours for actions involving officers of the VJ and the

24    MUP for such an action take place, correct?

25       A.   You have put a lot of questions.  The corps commander cannot issue

Page 21001

 1    a decision on a Joint Command.  Someone has to issue him with an order who

 2    he will coordinate with, just as he ordered me to coordinate with and

 3    support the MUP forces in the area assigned to me.

 4       Q.   So just to be clear on your answer, in order for you at your level

 5    to be able to carry out a joint action with your counterparts from the

 6    MUP, there would have had to be some sort of coordination or planning at a

 7    higher level among representatives of the VJ and the MUP for this action

 8    to be carried out.  Isn't that correct?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Now, if we can go back to the order, I would like to look at page

11    5 of the English and this is page 3 in the B/C/S, it's paragraph 5.3 where

12    the specific tasks are assigned to your unit.  Do you have that before

13    you, Colonel?

14       A.   Yes, I have it before me.

15       Q.   In this paragraph you were tasked with settling up a blockade

16    along the line of Crnusa, village of Prvi Tunel, and the village of

17    Stari Trg.  Are all villages located in Kosovska Mitrovica municipality,

18    correct?

19       A.   Correct.

20            MS.KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, in the interest of saving time I'm not

21    going to show all these localities to the witness on the map, but they are

22    in page-- on page 14 of P615, which is the Kosovo atlas at the bottom.

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

24            MS. KRAVETZ:

25       Q.   And here your assignment is to support MUP forces in defeating and

Page 21002

 1    destroying Albanian terrorists and there are a number of different

 2    villages and localities mentioned here, Mazic, Resane, Carescani [phoen]

 3    Pasoma, these are all villages located to the south of where your units

 4    were depolyed in Vucitrn municipality.  Is that correct?

 5       A.   Correct.

 6       Q.   Now, in your statement at paragraph 16 you referred to a -- I'm

 7    sorry.

 8       A.   You asked me about the villages south of where I was, but you

 9    didn't let me respond.  You see that this is copied, Bajgora, Skrovna,

10    Samodreza, that's why we went to Pristina to clarify the part that does

11    not relate to the 58th Brigade, but rather has to do with item 5.2.

12       Q.   I'm not sure if the interpretation was correct, you said this was

13    copied, Bajgora and Bare.  You mean that these localities were outside of

14    your specific area of deployment, is that -- if I'm understanding you

15    correctly?

16       A.   Yes, you're understanding me correctly but you misinterpreted what

17    I said, Bajgora, Skrovna, Samodreza, that's not in my area of

18    responsibility.

19       Q.   Bajgora was not in your area of responsibility?

20       A.   No, no, no, no.  That axis, Madam, Bajgora-Skrovna-Samodreza is

21    outside.  Bajgora as a village, yes, but this axis diverges from the axis

22    mentioned here Stari Trg, Bare, Bajgora.

23       Q.   My question, my initial question which is very simple, I just

24    wanted to know, for you to confirm if all these villages were to the south

25    of where you were deployed and you said that that was correct.  Now, in

Page 21003

 1    paragraph --

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  In paragraph 16 you referred to an operative

 4    report that you sent on 23rd April, this is 5D1129, where you report on

 5    preparation for coordination with the MUP to implement the tasks that are

 6    indicated here in this order.  And I would like to know, Colonel, how was

 7    this coordination between you and MUP forces carried out in order to

 8    fulfil the tasks that were assigned to you in this order?

 9       A.   I'll point out right away that throughout the war I had excellent

10    cooperation with this detachment.  The commander of the detachment would

11    come to my command post or I would go to his command post --

12       Q.   May I interrupt you just to ask for a clarification.  Which

13    detachment specifically are you referring to?

14       A.   The 35th Detachment of the PJP's.  It was Branko Prljevic, Colonel

15    Branko Prljevic, who was their commander.  Regardless of the place, we met

16    on a daily basis, studied this task that we had been issued with in the

17    order.  We would go to carry out reconnaissance of that axis, and then

18    based on the reconnaissance we would issue our own decision.  He for his

19    units and I for my units, and we would go to Pristina.  He would report to

20    General Obradovic -- rather, Obrad Stevanovic, and I would report I think

21    it was Colonel Stefanovic who was in the command, and we would receive

22    approval for our idea as to how this order should be implemented.  So we

23    would go together.

24            While carrying out the task, on one occasion on the 30th of April

25    we were visited by Colonel Stefanovic from the army, and on the 1st of May

Page 21004

 1    I think my colleague in the 35th Detachment received a visit from

 2    General Obrad Stevanovic.  And they were satisfied with our engagement,

 3    our mutual coordination, and cooperation.

 4       Q.   And in this specific instance with regard to the order that we're

 5    looking at now, you went to Pristina to consult with Colonel Stefanovic

 6    and your counterpart, the commander of the 35th PJP Detachment spoke to

 7    Obrad Stevanovic in order to be able to implement this task?  Am I

 8    understanding your evidence correctly?

 9       A.   Madam Prosecutor, we do not consult our superior.  We go to

10    present our decision and seek approval for its implementation.  We report

11    on the coordination we have achieved, and his superior for the PJP and my

12    superior for the VJ units would approve the decision.  So it was not a

13    consultation.

14       Q.   Thank you.

15            MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I don't know if this is a convenient

16    time to interrupt for the break.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  As good as any.

18            We have to break now, Mr. Savic, for an hour, so could you please

19    leave the courtroom with the usher and we'll see you again at quarter to

20    2.00.

21                          [The witness stands down]

22                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.45 p.m.

23                          --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Judge Chowhan has been unwell and is unable to

25    continue this afternoon, but we have decided to continue in his absence

Page 21005

 1    since we consider that to be in the interests of justice.

 2                          [The witness takes the stand]

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  Ms. Kravetz.

 4            MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5       Q.   Colonel, before the break we were discussing this order you have

 6    before you and how the implementation was carried out, and you have spoken

 7    about different units referred to in this order.  Were any local

 8    civilians, armed local civilians, involved in carrying out the actions

 9    that are contemplated in this order?

10       A.   No.  As this order, there were no armed civilians.  This was too

11    serious an action and the objective was to lift the blockade of Stari Trg,

12    which was an important feature of state interest.  This was a mine that

13    cannot operate properly because there were permanent attacks from Bajgora,

14    Stari Trg, therefore they were none.  No other forces apart from this

15    detachment and units from my brigade.

16       Q.   The reason I'm asking you is that because in the order there you

17    have before you if you look at number 2 of the order, I believe this is

18    page 1 in the B/C/S version and it's page 2 on the English, if you see

19    right under the heading Pristina Corps assignments, there's a reference to

20    Pristina Corps together with reinforcements and the armed non-Siptar

21    population of Kosovo and Metohija is supporting MUP forces in defeating

22    and destroying Albanian terrorist forces.  Do you see that in the order?

23    If you look down under number 2 I believe this is the same page in the

24    B/C/S, the almost-to-last paragraph, the last sentence says:  "Armed local

25    non-Albanians are to be assigned with guards facilities and roads and with

Page 21006

 1    protecting local non-Albanians."

 2            You see that, Colonel, correct?

 3       A.   Yes, this is paragraph 3 of item 2, right?

 4       Q.   Yes.  Now, we've had many witnesses here before you who have been

 5    asked about this expression armed non-Siptar population and who have not

 6    been able to explain what it means.  When you received this order from the

 7    Pristina Corps command and I presume you read it entirely -- in its

 8    entirety, what did you understand this to mean, the armed non-Siptar

 9    population?

10       A.   I was not receiving any interpretation of what you have been

11    saying.

12       Q.   I'm sorry.  I'll just repeat this.  What I was saying -- I'll just

13    say very briefly.  Armed non-Siptar population that is referred to in --

14    under number 2 in this order, what does that refer to?  Who is this armed

15    non-Siptar population that's being referred to in this order?

16       A.   I did not encounter these forces in my area.  I saw a reference to

17    them in the order, and I saw them marked somewhere in some sort of a unit

18    near the village of Kosutovo or thereabouts.  Other than, that military

19    installations and facilities of vital state interest were being secured up

20    until the 1st of May by military territorial units, that was their main

21    objective, and they were working with MUP units on this.  Therefore, I

22    assert that in the area of responsibility of the 58th Brigade there were

23    no non-armed Siptar persons.

24       Q.   You say you saw them marked somewhere in some sort of unit near

25    the village, which village exactly did you refer to?

Page 21007

 1       A.   This is the village of Kosutovo it straddles the Mitrovica-Zubin

 2    Potok road.  There was a map that I looked at and they were marked there.

 3       Q.   They were -- okay.  So you saw this when you say you saw there was

 4    a map that was attached to the order that you received?

 5       A.   Yes, yes, yes.  We received an attachment to this order for the

 6    Bajgora-Bare action.

 7       Q.   Colonel, when you received this order and saw this reference and

 8    you saw this unit being marked on the map, did you consult or ask your

 9    commander what this meant, who this unit was that was supposed to be

10    engaged in this village of Kosutovo I think it was that you said?

11       A.   No.  I wasn't worried and I wasn't wondering.  This sector that is

12    marked here is where my first infantry battalion from the 58th Light

13    Infantry Brigade happened to be.

14       Q.   So the area where this persons, these non-armed Siptar -- or

15    Albanian persons were supposed to be deployed was an area that fell within

16    the area of responsibility of your brigade, if I'm understanding your

17    evidence correctly?

18       A.   Madam Prosecutor, I'm telling you this is what the document says,

19    but I didn't see them on the ground.  Where I saw them marked, that's

20    true, that's where one of my battalions and the establishment happened to

21    be on the day the document was written.

22       Q.   Okay.  So although the map that you saw had this unit deployed in

23    your area of responsibility, it did not occur to you ask your commander

24    who these persons were that were supposed to carry out actions in the area

25    of responsibility of your brigade?  You had -- you did not ask any

Page 21008

 1    questions about who these persons that were deployed there were?

 2       A.   I understand your interest.  Item 2 is the task of my superior

 3    command.  It is logical for us to go through the entire order, but

 4    whichever commander must start this task, he will be looking at items 4

 5    and 5 because those are the tasks for his unit.  You see at 5.3 there is

 6    no reference to the armed non-Siptar component, is there?

 7       Q.   Colonel, and is there any military facility of interest in this

 8    village of Kosutovo where this unit you're referred to was deployed,

 9    because we see in the order that they're being tasked with guarding

10    military facilities and roads and protecting the population, the

11    non-Albanian population.

12       A.   There are no military facilities there and they're not marked

13    there as a unit.  There is actually no reference to them as a unit.  There

14    is mention there of some armed -- I'm sorry.  Armed non-Siptar population,

15    so this is not a unit.  The scale for this map is 1:100 or 200.000 which I

16    interpreted at this time was a mistake.  I can't say my attention was

17    drawn by this since, again, this was exactly in the opposite direction

18    from the main axis of operations for my brigade Stari Trg-Bajgora.  This

19    is a peripheral area.

20       Q.   The reason I used the word "unit" was you yourself had referred to

21    some sort of unit near this village, that's why I was asking about this

22    unit that you saw on the map.

23       A.   Well, in that case, I was being less than precise.  This sector is

24    marked here, this semicircle, and then this semicircle was marked in the

25    defence area of my own battalion, which was later shifted to the Stari

Page 21009

 1    Trg-Bajgora axis.  This is where a unit came, the name of which was the

 2    56th Military Territorial Detachment.

 3       Q.   Okay.  So this semicircle you're referring to was also an area

 4    where the 56th Military Territorial Detachment was deployed?

 5       A.   That's right.

 6       Q.   Okay.  Well, let's move on from there.  You say in your statement

 7    that the actions that are envisaged in this order were carried out during

 8    a period of approximately seven to eight days between 25th April and 1st

 9    May 1999; is that correct?

10       A.   Correct.  Correct.

11       Q.   And on 1st May did your brigade or units from your brigade break

12    through the KLA front line at Melenica?

13       A.   Meljanica.

14       Q.   Yeah, I'm sorry for my mispronunciation.

15       A.   Yes, we did indeed break through their line and we joined up with

16    units of the 354th Infantry Brigade in the Bajgora sector, Bajgora

17    village.  Meljanica village is to the left in relation to that road

18    looking from Mitrovica in the direction of Bajgora or on the left wing of

19    the attack front.

20       Q.   Did your units then proceed to advance south of Meljanica?

21       A.   The front line was stretching from the south-east to the

22    north-west, and little by little, it shifted from south-west to the

23    north-east towards Bajgora village.  This is what the front line was like.

24    If you look at the map, it went like this.  And then the village of

25    Meljanica is on the left wing of that front -- well, I'm talking in

Page 21010

 1    relation to my forces obviously, and there was very stubborn resistance by

 2    the enemy in that sector, the Siptar terrorist forces or whatever you want

 3    to call them.  And then after the breakthrough the enemy moved north of

 4    this village and we believed that the forces moving at this point were

 5    large-scale forces, and that is why Bajgora 2 action ensued.  So I'm not

 6    sure if that is sufficiently clear for you.

 7       Q.   Yes.  The reason I'm asking is we've heard evidence that as a

 8    result of these operations in the Bajgora area and the ones you've shown

 9    on the map further south, the civilian population was displaced en masse

10    to the general area of the village of Cecelija.  That's correct, isn't it,

11    Colonel?

12       A.   You probably got something wrong because I don't know a single

13    village by that name, but it was said at the time that some of the

14    population from the Bajgora area where there were a number of villages and

15    the main villages would be Bare Bajgora, Mazic, Vidusic, something to the

16    effect that some of the population of Bajgora village had probably been

17    taken to Vesekovac, Skrovna as for the rest of the population who had fled

18    we found them later north of Mazic and those were people from Vlahinja

19    village so that was a refugee village that I was telling you about; but I

20    didn't tell you that at a later stage over the following ten days there

21    were several hundreds more of those locals who were now returning to their

22    villages.  There are several daily reports talking about this --

23       Q.   May I stop you there.  I think there's maybe an error in the

24    transcript here.  I was talking of the village of Cecelija, which is

25    referred to in paragraph 18 of your statement I see its not been correctly

Page 21011

 1    transcribed in the transcript.  So what I was indicating that as a result

 2    of these operations the population fled to the south of the general area

 3    of Bare and Bajgora and concentrated in the general area of the village of

 4    Cecelija.  That's correct isn't it, Colonel?

 5       A.   I was shown that portion in Cecelija, Samodreza, Skrovna,

 6    Vesekovac, for the most part it was people from Vucitrn municipality who

 7    had fled to those parts.  The village you mentioned, Cecelija in relation

 8    to Mazic, well the difference between the two is 15 kilometres.

 9       Q.   Okay.  And, Colonel, I think that you [indiscernible] something

10    today because everyone's referring to you as General --

11       A.   General, yet again.  I have my luck to thank for it.

12       Q.   Colonel, we have heard evidence in this case that on 2nd May a

13    convoy that was travelling in Studime gorge or near the area of Gornje

14    Sudimlje was attacked by Serb forces or that a massive attack occurred

15    there which resulted in the death of hundreds of civilians.  Did you

16    receive any information on this event at the time when these operations

17    were taking place?

18       A.   I think the interpreter is probably confusing the 2nd of May with

19    the 2nd of June because we're talking about the 2nd of May, aren't we?   I

20    do know that it's -- it's difficult for you to pronounce all these names

21    of these villages, Sudimlje, Sudimlje.  About the refugee group I found

22    out about these on the 2nd of May as soon as they reached the Kicic

23    village area which is far on the right wing of this section of the front

24    line.  As soon as I had been informed by officers from that section of the

25    front, I was off immediately to see what was going on together with the

Page 21012

 1    chief of the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP and the commander of the 35th

 2    Detachment of the PJP.  Following consultations --

 3       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...  before we get sidetracked

 4    here.  I was asking you specifically about this attack on a convoy that

 5    was travelling - and you've corrected my pronunciation of the location -

 6    Sudimlje gorge on 2nd of May.  My question was whether you received

 7    information at the time, 2nd of May, when this occurred that there had

 8    been a massacre in which over hundred people, civilians, had been killed.

 9    That was my question.  It's simply a yes or no question.

10       A.   I do apologise for my comprehensive explanation.  The answer is no

11    I had no information indicating that.

12       Q.   Colonel, would it be usual for you to receive no information about

13    such an event that involved such a large-scale killing of civilians in an

14    area where you and other units were carrying out a joint operation?

15    Wouldn't you normally receive reports or information from the units about

16    an event of this scale?

17       A.   No.  This is the right-hand neighbour of the 15th Armoured

18    Brigade, that's their area and the villages mentioned here are ahead of

19    the front end of that brigade.  And we didn't send operations reports from

20    brigade to brigade; rather, we would send our reports to the corps

21    command.  One thing that was of relevance to all the units, the corps

22    command would then report back to them including my brigade and this was

23    the case with Vlahinja where all of the corps's units were informed on

24    what to do with the refugee group found there.

25            So this is something that happens to be in territory that was not

Page 21013

 1    under our control, not under the control of the army.

 2       Q.   And you didn't see any mention of this massacre in any of the

 3    reports that you received from the corps command?

 4       A.   No.  I first found out about this in 2000 when investigators of

 5    the Office of the Prosecutor came to Serbia while it was still Serbia and

 6    Montenegro at the time and they asked me certain questions about that

 7    massacre.

 8       Q.   So prior to that date you had received no information about this

 9    event?

10       A.   No, no.

11       Q.   Now, in your statement at paragraph 33 you refer to a group of

12    civilians that you encountered in the general region of Kicici village and

13    you said you went to that location, you contacted the SUP chief and

14    commander of the PJP Detachment.  This was a group predominantly of women,

15    children, elderly, that's correct?

16       A.   Correct.

17       Q.   Did you get any information from this large group, you're talking

18    about a group of 2.000 or 3.000 people that you and your units encountered

19    there, any information from where they were coming from?  I mean, how did

20    they end up in that region of Kicici village?

21       A.   No.  I received no information at the time.  They were exhausted.

22    They had obviously been on the road for quite some time, and we proposed

23    that they put themselves up in Kicic village which they accepted.

24    According to an order by the corps commander, we were supposed to

25    forestall any movements by civilians in areas of combat activity and we

Page 21014

 1    were supposed to help them go back to where they come from.  You see,

 2    Kicic village happened to be my area, and several days later because it

 3    was quite obvious to us at the time that the area was overcrowded some of

 4    those people were transferred to other neighbouring villages that were

 5    vacant at the time and had been abandoned, Dobra Luka, for example,

 6    another village that was outside of my area of responsibility.  Area of

 7    responsibility, there you have a military term, right, but what I'm trying

 8    to say is they left the area which I controlled at the time.

 9       Q.   Colonel, and you say these were mostly women, children, and

10    elderly.  Where were the men?

11       A.   And the elderly, yeah.

12       Q.   What had happened to the men?

13       A.   I don't know.  I spent about an hour there.  The fighting was

14    still going on.  It's the 2nd of May, you see, there was still operations

15    that were afoot and there were clashes going on with the Siptar terrorist

16    forces. One thing that mattered to me was for those people to be moved

17    around the villages.  I was a military commander.  I had no special

18    authority over those civilians.

19       Q.   We have heard some evidence from a witness who was in Kicici

20    village at this time and she recounted that she went through quite an

21    ordeal before getting there.  She was in the convoy that was attacked that

22    we spoke about earlier, and she told the Court that she and the other

23    survivors of this massacre were detained at an agricultural compound

24    outside Vucitrn for some time and that later her group which was mostly

25    women, children, the elderly were ordered to go to Kicici village.  Do you

Page 21015

 1    know anything about this, about refugees being detained at an agricultural

 2    compound outside Vucitrn town?  We're talking about the evening/early

 3    morning of 2nd or 3rd May.

 4       A.   No, I didn't know that.  Later in 2000, as I said, I heard about

 5    these allegations.  I don't know.  I said it was outside my area and until

 6    my proofing for the trial started I had not been aware of those

 7    developments.  But to be quite frank what I saw written there I found

 8    quite irritating.

 9       Q.   In the evidence we've heard also from the same witness,

10    Fedrije Xhafa, is that at this agricultural compound the men were

11    separated from the women and children and the men were taken to a prison

12    and you're going to excuse me for my pronunciation of the village

13    Prekovnica prison, which is a little bit to the north of Vucitrn and that

14    they were held there under inhumane conditions.

15       A.   Prekovnica.

16       Q.   Did you have any information about this, about men being held

17    separated from the rest of the refugees and taken to this detention

18    facility in early May?

19       A.   No.  Look, Madam, I know about the detention facility in

20    Prekovnica, that's midway between Mitrovica and Vucitrn, but the prisons

21    are not under the authority of the MUP.  I think it's the Ministry of

22    Justice actually that's in charge of prisons.  Therefore, I have no

23    information indicating what exactly went on there.

24       Q.   Very well, Colonel.  We'll move on to a different topic.  In

25    your --

Page 21016

 1            JUDGE BONOMY:  Was all of that about the same event?  There

 2    weren't two separate massacres on the 2nd of May --

 3            MS. KRAVETZ:  No, it's --

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  It's the one event.

 5            MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, it's the same event at paragraphs 72(m) and (i)

 6    of the indictment.

 7       Q.   Colonel, moving on to a completely different topic.  You told us

 8    earlier that in 1998 you were head of Combat Group 3 of the 15th Brigade,

 9    15th Armoured Brigade?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And you said your commander was Colonel Cirkovic at the time?

12       A.   Yes, he was then and still is.

13       Q.   And in August of 1998 you carried out a series of joint actions

14    with the MUP; isn't that correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   The area of responsibility of the 15th Armoured Brigade was in the

17    Vucitrn area, as we saw earlier.  Was that also the case in 1998, Vucitrn

18    municipality?

19       A.   No.  Vucitrn municipality was in the zone of responsibility of the

20    125th Motorised Brigade.  We were in Pristina.

21       Q.   So at the time you were in the municipality of Pristina, that's

22    correct?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   In 1998, in August 1998, were you -- were carrying out these joint

25    operations with the MUP.  Did you hear or see any reference to orders of

Page 21017

 1    the Joint Command?

 2       A.   No.  I may have told the Defence I received orders from the

 3    brigade commander directly.  We had round-the-clock contact.  He brought

 4    me written orders and issued me with oral orders.

 5       Q.   But isn't it correct, Colonel, that the joint actions that were

 6    carried out by your brigade with the MUP were coordinated and planned and

 7    ordered by the Joint Command in Pristina?

 8       A.   It's possible, but I received orders exclusively from the

 9    commander.

10       Q.   Okay.  I would like to show you a document this is P1423  and it's

11    a report on combat tasks carried out by the 15th Brigade.  It's signed by

12    your commander at the time, Colonel Cirkovic.  If we could have that up in

13    e-court.  P1423, yes.

14            So I would like to draw your attention to number 1 in the B/C/S

15    version, the first sentence where it says:  "Between 25th July and 6th

16    August, 1998, MUP units were engaged by decision of the joint command for

17    Kosovo and Metohija," do you see that and it indicates the locations or

18    areas of deployment where this engagement took place?

19       A.   Yes, I can see that.

20       Q.   And the last sentence of paragraph 1 says:  "Previous operations

21    by MUP and VJ units were carried out with the knowledge and approval of

22    the joint command for Kosovo and Metohija and there was no deviation from

23    orders."

24       A.   Madam Prosecutor, this document was shown to me during my

25    proofing.  I was the commander of Combat Group 3, which is equivalent to a

Page 21018

 1    battalion.  What the brigade commander reports to the corps commander is

 2    something that is far from the eyes and knowledge of a battalion

 3    commander.  So it's not for me to comment on and interpret a document

 4    issued by my superior, what he meant to say by it concerning reporting up

 5    the chain of command.

 6       Q.   Very well.  So I take it from your evidence that at the time you

 7    had no information that the actions that you were engaging together with

 8    the MUP had been ordered by the Joint Command, despite what your commander

 9    here is reporting?

10       A.   No, no.

11       Q.   Very well.  I want to move on to a different topic.  During your

12    testimony today you were asked whether you took any measures with regard

13    to ordinary soldiers, disciplinary measures, and you referred to -- your

14    answer was yes and you said that sometimes 15, as many as 30 soldiers,

15    were in detention due to different disciplinary infractions that they had

16    committed.

17            Now, these infractions that you're referring to that resulted in

18    the arrest of -- or detention of these persons, soldiers, were minor

19    infractions; isn't that correct?

20       A.   That's correct.

21       Q.   So you're basically talking about infractions such as abandonment

22    of post -- you have no -- are you getting interpretation now, Colonel?

23       A.   But with interruptions.  Sometimes I hear it but sometimes there

24    are interruptions in it.  We've come to the minor infractions.

25       Q.   Yes.  I'll repeat my question, and please let me know if you don't

Page 21019

 1    get interpretation in your headphones.  So what I was asking was, so the

 2    detention that you ordered with respect to these soldiers that you

 3    referred to earlier was for infractions such as abandonment of post,

 4    failure to comply with an order, there were things like that, minor

 5    infractions; is that correct?

 6       A.   That's correct.

 7       Q.   Now, in paragraph 36 of your statement you refer to a report,

 8    unfortunately we don't have the translation although I think part of it

 9    was used today.  And you say:  "In the period from 15th May, 1999, 18

10    persons were arrested for the commission of crimes."

11            Were these also similar types of crimes, minor infractions,

12    committed by soldiers in your unit?

13       A.   Concerning these 18 persons, I saw that in the operative reports

14    and criminal reports were filed against them.  These were thefts or

15    looting.  Thefts are the milder form and looting is the more serious form.

16    We sent criminal reports to the military court in Pristina, and then to

17    ease the workload, part of these infractions were processed in the

18    district court in Mitrovica.

19       Q.   And theft and looting was a widespread problem in your brigade,

20    was it?

21       A.   In view of the number of instances we see here, one might say that

22    there was a lot of that, but in view of the overall situation as regards

23    breaches of discipline or the law, it was not drastic.  When we talk about

24    the most serious crimes, such as murder or rape, such things did not

25    happen in the brigade.  This refers mainly to the taking of property from

Page 21020

 1    abandoned houses.

 2       Q.   So if I understand your evidence correctly, none of these 18

 3    persons were investigated or prosecuted for any serious crimes such as

 4    murder or rape?

 5       A.   I didn't understand your question properly.  As regards these 18,

 6    misdemeanour and criminal measures were taken against them.  I said there

 7    had been no murders or rapes in the brigade and the units that were later

 8    subordinated to it.

 9       Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much, Colonel, for answering my questions.

10            MS. KRAVETZ:  I have no further questions for this witness, Your

11    Honour, and I think I ran out of time.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

13                          Questioned by the Court:

14            JUDGE BONOMY:  In paragraph 4 of your statement you refer to

15    supporting the MUP forces in the action Slup i Voksa.  Now, is that in

16    Decani municipality?

17       A.   Yes, Mr. President.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  In that area and the surrounding parts, were you

19    aware of a particular problem of looting in August 1998?

20       A.   No, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  I think I've given you the wrong period.  Probably

22    my question should have related to the whole period from then until --

23    that's from August until December.

24       A.   Your Honour, I was there a week.  I was at our automatic firing

25    range in Bijelo Polje near Pec.  In view of the equipment I had available,

Page 21021

 1    the commander, who probably received an order from his commander, issued

 2    me with the task you have had an opportunity of seeing here in his order,

 3    and that was to support the MUP forces on the Decani-Voksa axis and the

 4    Crni Breg-Slup axis.  In that action we had great losses and there was a

 5    very unpleasant episode concerning my command there and the support to the

 6    MUP forces.

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  We'll briefly go into private session.

 8                          [Private session]

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 21022

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10                          [Open session]

11            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  You deal to quite a considerable extent with action

13    along with units of the MUP.

14       A.   Yes.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  And just as an example but I think it's a theme of

16    your statement, if you look at paragraph 23 of your statement which deals

17    with Prekaze, the last sentence says that:  "During the execution of the

18    task, good cooperation was established with members of the MUP."  Can you

19    give me examples of that good cooperation?

20       A.   Your Honour, every well-implemented coordinated action requires

21    good cooperation.  My unit was threatened by stronger forces, stronger

22    enemy forces, and so in spite of the task that the commander of the PJP

23    detachment had been issued which had to do with the Mitrovica-Gornja Klina

24    road, when I suffered losses at the Zmic feature I asked for help.  He

25    introduced first one company and then a second company to repel the enemy

Page 21023

 1    forces and the members of the PJP had losses on that occasion.  I think a

 2    company commander or a platoon commander was killed.  He was an officer.

 3    So we had three men killed in that action alone.

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Can you give me an example in any action the other

 5    way -- where what happened was the other way around, that you gave support

 6    and assistance to the MUP?

 7       A.   Yes, certainly.  In the Bajgora 1 operation there was very strong

 8    resistance on the Majdan hill-Preten feature axis.  And in the course of

 9    the night we provided support with mortar fire to the PJP forces which

10    were under attack from the Siptar terrorist forces.  Also, when advancing

11    from the Bare village in the direction of Bajgora on the 1st of May or

12    perhaps the 30th of April, there was a fierce counter attack against us on

13    the forward companies of the 35th Detachment.  And not only did we

14    introduce all the reserves we had, but we also asked for assistance from

15    the superior command.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  When you provided mortar support, did they tell you

17    the area in which they required that and the targets that you had to

18    direct your attention to?

19       A.   Your Honour, the configuration of the terrain on which we were

20    acting from the village of Bare towards Bajgora is a plateau where

21    everything is visible.  The support was direct, which means that the

22    targets were visible, easy to see, and correction was possible.  The range

23    of the mortar I had at my disposal was 6 kilometres maximum, which means

24    there was no danger of imperilling civilians, as there weren't any in the

25    area.  This was the last major counter attack in that area.  One could

Page 21024

 1    clearly see all their units being brought in and taking up positions and

 2    their battle order and deployment.

 3            I don't know if I've managed to answer your question.

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Was friendly fire on occasions a problem because

 5    you were each acting under separate commands?

 6       A.   No.  Experience from 1998 taught me how to control and manage

 7    fire.  So there was no danger of friendly fire.  This was a success due to

 8    coordination and coordinated and concerted action.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  In general, though, was any particular step taken

10    to avoid the risk of friendly fire?

11       A.   Yes, Your Honour.  For every combat activity, whether in attack or

12    defence, whatever kind of battle it is, a plan of fire support is entered

13    into the map.  So planned firing is entered into the map, and during the

14    attack or defence when new targets are observed based on the map

15    commands -- command is exerted and orders issued and the commander of the

16    unit providing support is there with us.  So we indicate to him the goal

17    or the target to be neutralized or destroyed.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  Were there ever circumstances in which any item was

19    warned to identify soldiers or others involved in activities as being part

20    of the authority -- the official forces rather than any terrorist or

21    insurgent body?

22       A.   No.  My men all wore the M-77 uniform and they were easy to

23    recognise.  The members of the PJP also wore the same uniform -- all of

24    them were wearing the same uniform, so there was no danger of mistaking

25    one unit for another and the enemy forces had those Chinese uniforms

Page 21025

 1    mostly.  It was some sort of camouflage uniform.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, we've been shown terrorists wearing or

 3    alleged terrorists wearing M-77 uniforms.  You didn't experience that?

 4       A.   No, no.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  All right.  Just one final matter then.  The

 6    military -- the resubordination of a military territorial detachment to

 7    your brigade, who made the orders that gave effect to that

 8    resubordination?

 9       A.   Yes, the corps commander effected the resubordination of those

10    military territorial detachments that had until then been part of military

11    territorial departments.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  Did the military department commander also require

13    to make an order to give effect to the resubordination?

14       A.   He had to issue an order because he also informed me which were

15    the commanders of detachments, which forces and equipment they had, so he

16    did issue his order on resubordination.  But the military department was

17    not resubordinated to me.  It continued its regular activities.  It only

18    received an additional activity as commander of the Mitrovica garrison.

19            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Savic.

20            Mr. -- Mr. Ivetic.

21            MR. IVETIC:  Just one thing with respect to Your Honour's

22    question, actually.  At page 95, line 10, was warned to identify, I

23    believe Your Honour said was warn, but I think you could clarify that, I

24    think.

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  What I did say was warn and I think the witness

Page 21026

 1    understood the question.  Thank you.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Cepic, re-examination?

 3            MR. CEPIC:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

 4                          Re-examination by Mr. Cepic:

 5       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, I have a number of questions for you.

 6    My colleague Mr. Ivetic showed you a document of the command of the

 7    Pristina Corps showing the presence of your forces in mid-May in locations

 8    Gornje Zabare, Tamnik, and Sipovo?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Did your forces -- rather, were your forces in that area in

11    mid-April?

12       A.   No.  In mid-April they were not there.  I have stated already that

13    the entire brigade had not even been mobilised at that time.

14       Q.   My colleague Mr. Ivetic has showed you the warning as you called

15    it from the garrison commander, Colonel Nastic, from the month of May,

16    warning all elements of defence.  I would like to know who was in charge

17    for law and order and the personal and security and the security of

18    property?

19       A.   The Ministry of the Interior.  In Mitrovica it was the secretariat

20    for internal affairs.

21       Q.   Were MUP forces perhaps resubordinated to Colonel Nastic?

22       A.   No.  Both he and I had our own military police units that

23    cooperated closely.  Military police were responsible for military

24    personnel and MUP was responsible for everyone else.

25       Q.   I would like to call up Exhibit P1975.  You have seen this order

Page 21027

 1    already and we have discussed it.

 2            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at item 5.

 3       Q.   Can you see it?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5            MR. CEPIC:  [Previous translation continues] ...  [Interpretation]

 6    Next page, please.

 7       Q.   You have it on paper.  Very good.  Tell me, which units received

 8    their tasks in item 5, or rather, which body, which agency?

 9       A.   211th Armoured Brigade, 15th Armoured Brigade, 58th Light Infantry

10    Brigade.

11       Q.   Was a single task issued to anyone outside the Army of Yugoslavia?

12       A.   Not in item 5.

13       Q.   What does this document mean to you?  Whose document is it?

14       A.   Since it came from my superior command, I consider it to be a

15    document of my command.  That's how I understood it and how I implemented

16    it.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  What do you understand by the term "supporting" in

18    this document?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, it can be fire

20    support or logistical support.  In this case it means to support with the

21    resources available to the brigade, primarily fire support; and the rest

22    of the support obtains when MUP units have executed their task and can

23    cede their place to my units.

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  How do you know when you read this what it is

25    you've got to do?

Page 21028

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we learned that at

 2    school.  Support, air support, fire, artillery, moral and psychological

 3    support, logistical support.

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, which paragraph of this deals with your

 5    brigade?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 5.3.

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, let's look at 5.3.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I read it?

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  No, just a moment until I see the English.

10            Now, that one actually tells you what you're supposed to do, but

11    the ones we've been looking at don't.  They don't say that there's a

12    blockade, for example, to be set up.  Now, if we go back to 5.2.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 5.2 --

14            JUDGE BONOMY:  Sorry, it does.  My mistake.  I hadn't seen that

15    part properly.  Thank you.

16            And can we go to 5.1.  Yeah.  Thank you very much.  Now it's

17    clearer.  I misunderstood it.

18            Mr. Cepic.

19            MR. CEPIC:  May I continue, Your Honour?

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

21            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

22       Q.   [Interpretation] Page 71, 72 of the transcript, the Presiding

23    Judge asked you a question -- I'm sorry, it was Ms. Kravetz from the

24    Prosecution who asked that question in relation to coordination and you

25    answered that someone higher should order with whom to effect

Page 21029

 1    coordination, meaning the commander of the Pristina Corps.  Who is higher

 2    up and who can give orders to the commander of the Pristina Corps?

 3       A.   Well, that's easy, army commander.

 4       Q.   And who can issue orders to the army commander?

 5       A.   Chief of the General Staff, or rather, if the war had already

 6    started, the Supreme Defence Council.

 7       Q.   And would an outside body or a civilian person or any other agency

 8    issue orders to anyone in the chain of military command?

 9       A.   No, absolutely not.

10       Q.   Was any sort of Joint Command able to give any orders to army

11    units?

12       A.   "Command" is a collective body, whereas our relations are based on

13    single command and subordination.  Command is where documents are drawn up

14    in area a sense a commander commands not the command.

15       Q.   Who is your commander?

16       A.   General Lazarevic.

17       Q.   In 1998?

18       A.   It was Colonel Cirkovic, Mladen Cirkovic.

19       Q.   In your response to Mrs. Kravetz you allow the possibility that

20    there was a Joint Command and now you gave me a different answer, so could

21    you please explain?  Was it possible for a Joint Command to exist and

22    issue orders to General Lazarevic?

23       A.   To allow the possibility is to accept something that is outside of

24    my knowledge or control.  It's not within my field of vision, so I allowed

25    the possibility --

Page 21030

 1       Q.   Listen to my question carefully.  Was any sort of Joint Command

 2    outside the military chain of command able to issue orders to

 3    General Lazarevic?

 4       A.   Well, after all these calls I finished I can say no.  At that time

 5    I was at a lower level, battalion level.  I didn't know what was going on

 6    higher up, but if we had been following the law then nobody could have

 7    issued orders to him apart from the supreme commander, who is also a

 8    military person, no Joint Command.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Savic, the members of the Supreme Defence

10    Council, are they military people or civilians?

11            THE WITNESS: They are civilians, but this is why there is a

12    staff of the Supreme Command, manned by military personnel, which

13    implements directives of the Supreme Command.

14            JUDGE BONOMY:  But -- yeah.  We have I think a dispute in this

15    case, though, about the power of the command staff and whether, in fact,

16    the Chief of the General Staff as -- during wartime, and possibly also in

17    peacetime, had any executive authority himself.  So that's a matter that

18    we will have to resolve in due course.

19            Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

20            MR. IVETIC:  If I can intervene to hopefully correct the

21    transcript.  At -- one moment, please, lost it.  At page 100, line 24,

22    when referring to the Supreme Command in the B/C/S I believe the witness

23    said he is also a civilian person not a military person, but we can have

24    that clarified.

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, it led me to ask a question I wouldn't

Page 21031

 1    otherwise have asked.

 2            MR. IVETIC:  I know.

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Savic, you were asked:  Was any sort of Joint

 4    Command outside the military chain of command able to issue orders to

 5    General Lazarevic?  And you said that you didn't know what was going on

 6    higher up, but if we had been following the law then nobody could have

 7    issued orders to him apart from the supreme commander who is -- and you

 8    then told us whether he was a military person or a civilian person.  Who

 9    did you say?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We omitted one element.  The

11    commander of the army commanded over the corps commander, and he received

12    orders from the chief of --

13            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness speak slower, please.

14            JUDGE BONOMY:  You're now losing the interpreter.  You must speak

15    a bit more slowly, please.  All I want to know at this stage is what you

16    said in your description of the supreme commander.  Did you call him a

17    military person or a civilian person?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in all democratic

19    societies at the head of the state is a civilian person --

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  No, no, I will not let you go down any other road.

21    Just answer my question.  Did you say he was a military person or a

22    civilian person?  Now, if you can't remember, we'll have the interpreters

23    tell us officially in a document which will be presented to the Court.

24    All I want is your help, if you can give it, to save that work.  You don't

25    need to look at -- just tell me -- can you not remember what you said?

Page 21032

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I know what I said --

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Just tell me what you said.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My commander of the corps was not

 4    commanded by a civilian.  He did not receive orders from civilians.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Very well.  We'll order the CLSS to provide a

 6    formal translation; it's the only way to find out what you said.

 7            Mr. Cepic.

 8            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9       Q.   [Interpretation] We could perhaps try to clarify this.  You said

10    that the corps commander was commanded by the commander of the 3rd Army,

11    and who commanded the commander of the 3rd Army?

12       A.   In peacetime the Chief of General Staff; in war, the Supreme

13    Defence Council, that's the Supreme Command.

14       Q.   Thank you.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  I hope you don't think that's clarified it.

16            MR. CEPIC:  With your leave, if I may ask some more questions --

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  If you feel you need to because you need to know

18    the situation now, fine; but it will be resolved by a formal translation,

19    although these do take some time, as you know.  It's up to you.  If you

20    want to deal with it, please do so.

21                          [Defence counsel confer]

22            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Very briefly, Colonel, what was the Supreme Command Staff in

24    wartime conditions, what did it comprise?

25       A.   The General Staff constitutes the Supreme Command Staff in wartime

Page 21033

 1    conditions.

 2       Q.   And who commands it?

 3       A.   The Supreme Defence Council.

 4       Q.   Thank you very much, Colonel.  Let's move on.

 5            Colonel, during Mr. Ivetic's examination you were shown a number

 6    of documents, P2809 and then the engagement plan and then your engagement

 7    plan and then these documents talk about the manner of engagement of the

 8    MUP forces after orders had been received from higher levels and the

 9    Supreme Command Staff from the command of the 3rd Army for the

10    resubordination of the MUP.  You told the President of this Trial Chamber

11    that you had been expecting throughout the war that there would be

12    resubordination.  And what I'm asking you now is:  Was there ever

13    resubordination before the end of the war of the MUP forces to the VJ?

14       A.   No, that never occurred.

15       Q.   Throughout the war you said that your command comprised officers

16    from military territorial detachment, did you not?  What about each of the

17    resubordinated military territorial detachments, did each of them not have

18    representatives in your command?

19       A.   No, no.  They were commanders of the detachment, and from the

20    command of the military department there had to be coordination with these

21    detachments and there was an officer who was in charge of that.

22       Q.   And who was in command of the military detachments?

23       A.   I myself directly.

24       Q.   Fine.  That's what I wanted to know.

25            General, can there be a collective form of a Joint Command in the

Page 21034

 1    army?

 2       A.   No, that I can entirely rule out.

 3       Q.   And please tell me this, my last question:  Who did you report to

 4    in the war?

 5       A.   To the corps commander alone.

 6       Q.   Thank you very much, Colonel.

 7            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  No other questions.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Zecevic.

 9            MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, but in light of the

10    witness's answers I'm obliged to pose some questions.

11            JUDGE BONOMY:  On what.

12            MR. ZECEVIC:  Concerning the Supreme Command which hasn't been a

13    part of his direct at all -- I need to clarify that because the evidence

14    in this case has been quite different from what this witness is now saying

15    and the defence of Mr. Milutinovic.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  Give me an example of a question you want to ask

17    him.

18            MR. ZECEVIC:  Maybe the witness should be excused.

19            JUDGE BONOMY:  No, just tell me.  No problem telling me the

20    question.

21            MR. ZECEVIC:  No, of course.  Your Honour, the witness said the

22    Supreme Defence Council is commanding the staff of the VJ.  According to

23    the constitution, we know what the constitutional provision.  I don't want

24    to give the answer to the witness.

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  And you think that we will be confused by what he

Page 21035

 1    said earlier?

 2            MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm not -- well, I hope you will not be confused

 3    with what he said.  I just -- because the transcript now --

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  All right, on you go and ask what you want to ask.

 5                          Further cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

 6       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, sir, just a single question.  Are you

 7    familiar with the provision of Article 135 of the Constitution of the

 8    Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia?

 9       A.   I can't tell you before I've seen it, can you.

10            MR. ZECEVIC:  Could we have - I'm sorry I'm unprepared at this

11    point - the constitution of FRY, what is the P number?  It's 900 and

12    something, 54, maybe, I'm sorry, Your Honour.  It's P986 and 1D139.  Let's

13    have 1D139.

14       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, sir, while we're waiting for --

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Zecevic, we do not consider it necessary for

16    you to explore this with the witness.  We do not think harm will be done

17    to your client's case by the answer that was given that concerns you, and

18    that was the reference to the commander of the 3rd Army being commanded by

19    the Supreme Defence Council; is that correct?

20            MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  No, no, that the -- no --

21    how I understood the witness's testimony was that at the top of the chain

22    of command was the Supreme Defence Council and that it -- that the Supreme

23    Defence Council was commanding.

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah, well -- that will not cause us any

25    difficulty.

Page 21036

 1            MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  Thank you very much.  Then I don't have any

 2    questions of him.  Thank you.

 3                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  On reflection, Mr. Zecevic, I think that may be

 5    wrong because there is going to be other evidence in this case that could

 6    have an impact on this and indeed even expert evidence which may have an

 7    impact on it.  And therefore it would be wrong for us to make assumptions

 8    based on what we've heard only so far.  So yes, you should explore the

 9    issue.

10            MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

11       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, sir, are you familiar with the fact that

12    singleness of command --, or rather, is singleness of command not one of

13    the foundations of our military system?

14       A.   Yes, I know about that, subordination and singleness of command.

15       Q.   Will you please explain what the principle of single command and

16    subordination means?

17       A.   What that means is that within the chain of command there is a

18    single commander who issues orders, directives, that sort of thing, that's

19    a single command, singleness of command.

20       Q.   Let me just check if my understanding is correct.  A superior

21    commander issues an order to a subordinate commander, so that's singleness

22    of command, the relationship between two commanders, one superior, one

23    subordinate, so that is the principle of singleness of command, right?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   I'm waiting for the interpretation.

Page 21037

 1            I think that is the same as subordination, right?

 2       A.   Subordination is the responsibility, or rather, the authority of

 3    whoever is issuing the order to issue orders.

 4       Q.   Thank you very much.  On the screen in front of you, you see

 5    Article 135 of the constitution which reads:

 6            "In wartime and peacetime the Army of Yugoslavia shall be under

 7    the command of the president of the republic in accordance with a decision

 8    by the Supreme Defence Council."

 9       A.   I see that.

10       Q.   All right.  If my understanding is correct - and please correct me

11    if I'm wrong - in order to implement the principle of singleness of

12    command which exists in the army, it's the president which should exercise

13    command, right, being the supreme commander; is that right?

14       A.   That's how it should be, but when you say for example in keeping

15    with a decision, he exercises command in keeping with somebody's decision.

16    I command, I carry out assignments based on a decision that is taken by my

17    commander.

18       Q.   Colonel, I agree with you.  In keeping with decisions, that means

19    something very specific but I'm asking you about command, about exercising

20    command.  Who exercises command over the Chief of the General Staff?

21       A.   The president of the Supreme Defence Council.

22       Q.   Thank you very much.

23            MR. ZECEVIC:  No other questions.

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Ms. Kravetz, does that raise any issues for you?

25            MS. KRAVETZ:  No, Your Honour.

Page 21038

 1            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 2            Mr. Cepic, anything else?

 3            MR. CEPIC:  [Microphone not activated]

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 5            Mr. Savic, that completes your evidence.  Thank you for coming to

 6    the Tribunal to give evidence.  You are now free to leave the courtroom.

 7            THE WITNESS:  [Microphone not activated]

 8                          [The witness withdrew]

 9                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, your next witness?

11            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our next witness is

12    Zdravko Vintar.

13            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our next witness is

14    Zdravko Vintar.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

16                          [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

17                          [The witness entered court].

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  Good afternoon, Mr. Vintar.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  Would you please make the solemn declaration to

21    speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

22    you.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I just may put my glasses on.

24            I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

25    and nothing but the truth.

Page 21039

 1            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  You will now be examined by Mr. Bakrac on behalf of

 4    Mr. Lazarevic.

 5            Mr. Bakrac.

 6            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                          WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO VINTAR

 8                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                          Examination by Mr. Bakrac:

10       Q.   [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel, good afternoon.

11       A.   Good afternoon.

12       Q.   Please be so kind as to state your full name for the purposes of

13    the record.

14       A.   My name is Zdravko Vintar, lieutenant-colonel in the Army of

15    Serbia.  I serve in the Nis garrison at the command of the ground forces.

16       Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Vintar.  I apologise for interrupting

17    you, but we have all of that in your statement and our time is limited and

18    this is what I will be asking you.  On the 25th of December, 2007, did you

19    not make a written statement to the General Lazarevic Defence team?

20       A.   I did.

21       Q.   Did you have a chance to go through that statement, to re-read it

22    and to familiarise yourself with its substance?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Does your statement reflect everything that you said?

25       A.   Indeed it does.

Page 21040

 1       Q.   Were we to ask you the very same questions today, would you still

 2    provide the same answers that you gave as on the 25th of December, 2007,

 3    sir, the answers reflected in your statement?

 4       A.   I would still provide the same answers.

 5            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this statement is

 6    Defence Exhibit 5D1394 and may it please be admitted into evidence.

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 8            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   Mr. Vintar, we have now dealt with this formality and we all have

10    the statement before us.  We know what it's about.  There is no need for

11    us to rehash what it says.  I have no more than three or four additional

12    questions or clarifications that I shall be seeking of you in relation to

13    what you shared with us.  If we look at paragraph 14 you state that in

14    view of the fact that you served in Djakovica during the war, the NATO

15    aviation spent a total of 42 days firing at the installations and units

16    within Djakovica itself and in its immediately surroundings.  You mention

17    the Cabrat hill area and the old part of town, the Katovicka Street in the

18    centre of town.

19            We had a witness here Mr. Haxhibeqiri, who said that Stara Carsija

20    and hadum, dzamija at the beginning of the NATO air-strikes had been set

21    alight by the Serb forces.  Please tell me whether any of that is true.

22    And What about Stara Carsija and hadum, dzamija is this the old town and

23    what about and Katalicka Street in the centre of town?

24       A.   That is the old part of town, yes; and it's just at the foot of

25    Cabrat hill.  On the very first day of the air-strikes, NATO fired at the

Page 21041

 1    barracks near the Erenik river.  The distance from Stara Carsija is about

 2    500 metres, and they fired at the slopes of Cabrat hill where our unit

 3    used to be positioned previously.  I'm referring to 1998 when I

 4    say "previously."  I remember that evening.  I know that sometime after

 5    2000 hours a fire broke out, and that part of town was soon ablaze.  If I

 6    may just explain, this is a section of the town that was -- that mostly

 7    comprised wooden buildings, buildings made of wood.  It's not necessary to

 8    explain is it.  As soon as there is even a small explosion, these

 9    buildings will easily catch fire and also some powerlines that were just

10    above caught fire too, some old powerlines.

11       Q.   Thank you very much.  Can you tell me if there was a component of

12    your own unit, the 52nd Rocket Artillery Brigade that was involved in

13    putting that fire out and trying to repair some of the damage?

14       A.   What I know is that the fire protection squad was there and they

15    had a fire engine, and they joined this operation in a bid to put out the

16    fire.  The town authorities also joined in.  I'm not sure how successful

17    they were, but I don't think they managed to achieve much since the fire

18    was really raging and it was blazing away at great speed and it spread

19    very quickly.

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, is Cabar hill the same as Cabrat hill?

21            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no Cabar, this

22    is Cabrat hill, it's probably a mistake.

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  I am also not understanding.  Are you suggesting --

24    or at least I don't understand what you're suggesting the witness earlier

25    in the case said, that's at line 10.  Are you saying the witness said that

Page 21042

 1    something had been set alight by NATO air-strikes?

 2            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, I see there is a

 3    mistake there.  I said that there was a witness.  I mentioned his name,

 4    who said that Stara Carsija had been burned or set fire to by the Serb

 5    forces, that was Fuat Haxhibeqiri and I asked the witness if he knew

 6    whether Katalicka Street and the old town, because that's was he said in

 7    paragraph 14, whether that was in reference to that part of Djakovica.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, you can see why the opposite impression had

 9    been created; however, you've clarified it.  Thank you.

10            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The interpretation was by

11    the Serb forces.

12            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honour.

13       Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, if we look at paragraph 26 of your statement

14    we see that you are commenting on a defence exhibit 5D1158.  Can we just

15    please have a brief look and I'll have an additional question about that

16    exhibit.  Sir, Lieutenant-Colonel, this is a regular combat report

17    produced by your brigade, anti-aircraft defence.  Can you please look at

18    the last sentence of paragraph -- item 1, second paragraph, there is

19    mention there of a NATO strike, they were firing at a column of refugees.

20    And the last sentence claims that a team went out and an emergency team as

21    well including a crew from GA Djakovica.  What does this mean, GA

22    Djakovica?

23       A.   That is the garrison and medical station of Djakovica.  It's a

24    military medical station, and they were assisting those who suffered the

25    consequences of the NATO strike when they fired at civilians.  To the

Page 21043

 1    extent that I can now remember, on that day I was actually called by the

 2    brigade commander, and he told me about the air-strike and he told me that

 3    he had been tasked by the brigade commander to ensure that our brigade,

 4    too, the medical team from the medical station joined this campaign to

 5    provide assistance to those people.  My task was to contact the municipal

 6    authorities to see if any further assistance was needed.  I can't quite

 7    specifically remember now, but I don't think on that day I managed to get

 8    in touch with anyone because everybody was out in the field.  The extent

 9    of this disaster was truly appalling and tragic.

10       Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, can you please clarify this:  What about

11    Cabrat hill above Djakovica before the war broke out and during the war,

12    were there any tanks there, VJ tanks?

13       A.   On Cabrat hill there were the positions of the 52nd Artillery

14    Rocket Brigade of the anti-aircraft defence and they had no tanks.  The

15    positions were taken up back in 1998.  Just before the war broke out we

16    moved the positions of our units because we expected that those would be

17    targeted.  We replaced these positions by mock positions with model

18    equipment and model weapons, and we were successful in fooling the enemy

19    fighter planes because they kept firing at those during the war.

20       Q.   Thank you very much.  Lieutenant-Colonel, I just have a single

21    question left.  In paragraph 3 of your statement you say that the break-up

22    of the SFRY found you serving as a battery commander, and you say pursuant

23    to decision of the SFRY Presidency in July 1991 I declared myself willing

24    to remain a member of the JNA.  Can you please just simplify what kind of

25    an order that was?

Page 21044

 1       A.   I'll tell you what this is about.  After the conclusion of the

 2    clashes between the JNA and Slovenia's Territorial Defence, the Presidency

 3    of the SFRY adopted a decision for the JNA to withdraw from Slovenia's

 4    territory.  That decision also made an option available to officers who

 5    were ethnic Slovenes to decide whether they wish to remain in the JNA or

 6    to go back to Slovenia.  I submitted a written declaration to the fact

 7    that I wished to remain with the JNA.

 8       Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, back in 1998 and 1999, did you know of any

 9    plan, verbal or otherwise, or to expel ethnic Albanian civilians from

10    Kosovo and Metohija?

11       A.   I knew of no such plan to expel civilians from Kosovo and

12    Metohija.  I lived with my family in Djakovica, my wife, my son, my

13    daughter in a residential building.  Most of my neighbours were Albanian.

14    I spoke to them both in 1998 and 1999, and our relationship was perfectly

15    normal.  I'm still in touch with those people, as a matter of fact.

16       Q.   What about the VJ, to the extent that you're aware of it, your

17    brigade, was it involved in a campaign to expel civilians on the ground I

18    mean?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   As an ethnic Slovene, you are still a member of the VJ, right?

21       A.   The Army of Serbia now.

22       Q.   What about 1998, had the army been involved in actions such as

23    these against the civilian population, would you have remained its member?

24       A.   No, if the army had committed any crimes, I would have abandoned

25    the army and I would have abandoned the country as well.

Page 21045

 1       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vintar.

 2            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these are all my

 3    questions.  I really apologise for exceeding the mark, but I thought it

 4    more purseful to wrap up today.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

 6            Mr. Vintar, we have to bring our proceedings for today to an end

 7    at this stage, and you have to return tomorrow to continue your evidence;

 8    that will be at 9.00 tomorrow morning.  Meanwhile, it's vitally important

 9    that you have no communication at all with any other person about the

10    evidence in this case, and by that I mean any of the evidence at any stage

11    in the case.  You can speak to whoever you like about whatever you like

12    except the evidence.

13            Now could you please leave the courtroom with the usher and we

14    will see you again tomorrow at 9.00.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

16                          [The witness stands down].

17                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.36 p.m.,

18                          to be reconvened on Friday, the 25th day of

19                          January, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.