Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22014

1 Monday, 11 February 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, everyone. There is something I would

6 like to clarify before we start this morning. In reviewing the transcript

7 for last week over the weekend, I was reminded of a hurried intervention

8 when accused and counsel appeared to be speaking loudly at the same time

9 when I made reference to puppetry. I -- it concerned me when I re-read it

10 that it could be regarded as a general comment and not confined to that

11 particular occasion, so forth avoidance of any doubt whatsoever, I want to

12 say one thing. I hope, indeed I think, that counsel know that I

13 appreciate the responsible way in which the proceedings have been handled

14 in general by counsel and that the comment was one made in the heat of the

15 moment.

16 Can we now have the witness, please.

17 [The witness entered court]


19 [Witness answered through interpreter].

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning again, Mr. Joksic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Your cross-examination by Mr. Hannis will continue

23 in a moment. Please bear in mind during that and the rest of the day that

24 the solemn declaration to speak the truth continues to apply to your

25 evidence.

Page 22015

1 Mr. Hannis.

2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mijatovic [sic]. You told us that after David

5 Gajic left that your new boss, the coordinator was Mr. Vilotic. How many

6 of you were working directly under Mr. Vilotic? I understood you were his

7 deputy but were you his only deputy or were you one of several?

8 A. There was another deputy there who was involved in

9 counter-intelligence in Kosovo and Metohija.

10 Q. And who was that? What was his name?

11 A. Well, these people changed during these eight years. Several of

12 them came for one-year or six-month stints. The last one who was there

13 when the war broke out was Slobodan Milikic [phoen].

14 Q. Since you were the one who was there the longest, were you

15 considered the number-two man?

16 A. Yes, it can be put that way.

17 Q. You told us on Friday in your direct examination that when a crime

18 was uncovered by the service, especially crimes relating to terrorism, the

19 state service would investigate and do preliminary investigations, would

20 interview people. Did you yourself personally interview any of those

21 persons arrested?

22 A. Not personally. Perhaps at the very outset. As for some of the

23 work we did in 1993 and 1994, on one or three occasions I personally took

24 part, but usually it was the operatives from the centre of the state

25 security.

Page 22016

1 Q. Okay. And at page 21942, one of your answers was that no one from

2 the public security sector was in charge of anything or could issue any

3 orders in the state security sector.

4 I have a question. Given the level you were at, how -- how do you

5 know that?

6 A. Well, I know that first of all in terms of the rules of service.

7 That is not allowed. And from my personal experience, I know that no one

8 ever gave me any orders from any public security organ, and the rules of

9 service say that that is not allowed too.

10 Q. Couldn't the minister of interior delegate someone from public

11 security to give information or give directions to DB personnel? Wasn't

12 that possible?

13 A. No. That was not the practice that prevailed. Also, there was

14 this instruction on the exchange of information that was adopted by the

15 minister. So there was no need to convey that to anyone. According to

16 the rules of service, one knew how one was supposed to work, and we knew

17 who was entitled to issue orders to us, and that was only the head of the

18 state security section.

19 Q. There's a topic I want to cover later, but I'll ask you a question

20 about it right now. When you got involved in dealing with Mr. Rugova's

21 situation during the war around the 31st of March, the 1st of April and

22 following that, who gave you instructions or directions to go over and see

23 Mr. Rugova and later on to transport him to and from Belgrade?

24 A. When we received information that Rugova was alive and that he was

25 in his house, I consulted the immediate coordinator, Miso Vilotic, and we

Page 22017

1 agreed I should go to his house and do what I did. After that, all the

2 orders and everything that was supposed to be done was something that I

3 was told by the chief of state security from Belgrade.

4 Q. And at the time that was Rade Markovic?

5 A. Rade Markovic.

6 Q. And do you know from whom he was getting instructions, if any,

7 regarding Rugova?

8 A. Well, I cannot know, but I can assume.

9 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about David Gajic. When did he -- when did

10 he leave his post as coordinator in Kosovo?

11 A. At the end of December 1998.

12 Q. And did Vilotic take up the position immediately after that?

13 A. From the 1st of January, 1999.

14 Q. Mr. Mijatovic [sic], do you know -- do you know why you were not

15 promoted to that position? You had been the number-two guy in Kosovo for

16 six or seven years; right?

17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, it's Mr. Joksic that's on the stand, not

18 Mr. Mijatovic.

19 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.

20 Q. I misspoke and I apologise, sir. Mr. Joksic, you know why you

21 were not promoted to that position?

22 A. Well, I cannot say. Personnel policies were conducted by the

23 chief of service, and it was his assessment that it should be Vilotic.

24 Q. Okay. And who was the chief of service who made that decision?

25 Was it Stanisic or Markovic?

Page 22018

1 A. Then specifically it was Markovic.

2 Q. When did you leave Kosovo in 1999?

3 A. I think it was the 12th of June or July.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether it's June or

5 July. We with barely hear the witness.


7 Q. The interpreters just told us they couldn't -- couldn't hear you.

8 Did you say June or July?

9 A. June. June.

10 Q. Thank you. Do you recall when Jovica Stanisic was replaced by

11 Mr. Markovic?

12 A. Well, I think it was during 1998, but I'm not quite sure. I think

13 it was sometime in the month of October, October 1998.

14 Q. And what information did you have about why that took place?

15 A. Well, I didn't have any information. We didn't have any

16 information. I mean, who asked us down there who's going to be your

17 boss? It was just changed and instead of Stanisic, Markovic came there.

18 Why that happened, we really don't know. And no one told us why.

19 Q. Did -- did David Gajic tell you why he was replaced?

20 A. Well, he didn't tell me. At that time people were saying that he

21 was nearing the end of his career, that he was supposed to retire, and

22 also it was being said that he should be involved in more peaceful work

23 somewhere in the top echelons of the service, an easier job, because he

24 was getting on in years. It was his age that was the main concern. He

25 was rather sickly, too, and people were saying that that is why he was

Page 22019

1 withdrawn to Belgrade, to get an easier job.

2 Q. Didn't David Gajic ever complain to you about this so-called Joint

3 Command that was working in Kosovo in 1998?

4 A. No, he didn't.

5 Q. And he never told you that he thought that that body had been

6 created because Milosevic was unhappy with the kind of information he was

7 receiving from the -- from the RDB?

8 A. No.

9 Q. As a matter of fact, didn't he actually get removed from his

10 position as coordinator on or about the 1st of October, 1998?

11 A. No. No. He was down there until the end of December, and he was

12 coordinator.

13 Q. At page 21946 on Friday, you gave an answer that according to your

14 information, neither David Gajic nor Mr. Vilotic were members of the MUP

15 staff for Kosovo. That's your information, right, your understanding?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. With regard to the MUP staff in Kosovo, I'd like to show you a

18 series of documents, and first can we start with P1251. This will be on

19 the screen in a minute, Mr. Joksic.

20 Actually, with the usher's help, let me hand you a hard copy. And

21 if you'll look at the second page, you can see that this is -- this is

22 from General Djordjevic, who I understand is on the public security side

23 of the house. You see that signature and stamp on the second page?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And this purportedly is on the 15th of May, 1998, and on the first

Page 22020

1 page you'll see it's a decision on the formation of a Staff of the

2 ministry in Pristina. Did you ever see that document before?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. If we could look next at P1252. And I'll give you a

5 copy of that one as well. I'll trade you, if I may.

6 The -- you'll see on the second page again this is another one

7 from General Djordjevic, and the date may be difficult to read, but I

8 think from other evidence it is the 11th of June, 1998. And you'll see on

9 the front page this is a decision on the composition of the Staff.

10 Did you see that document before?

11 A. No.

12 Q. But most importantly, I want to show you P1505, and I'll hand you

13 a copy of this one.

14 This is dated the 16th of June, 1998. And this one is from the

15 minister of the interior, Vlajko Stojiljkovic, and it's a decision to

16 establish a ministerial staff for the suppression of terrorism.

17 Have you not seen this document before today?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Well, if you look on the first page you'll see it has General

20 Sreten Lukic as the -- it's translated here as the head of staff, and

21 David Gajic is listed as the deputy head of staff.

22 A. Yes, that's what's written here.

23 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt the authenticity of this document

24 signed by the minister?

25 A. Well, I have no reason to doubt the document as it -- I mean, that

Page 22021

1 would be a matter of expertise. As far as I know, and I was down there

2 all the time, David Gajic was never that. I know that Sreten Lukic's

3 deputy was Miroslav Mijatovic. So David Gajic, as far as I know, well, I

4 was down there but he was never the deputy of the head of this staff. I

5 know that at that time Mijatovic was with Sreten Lukic as deputy head of

6 the staff.

7 Q. Well, how can you say that no members of the DB were on the MUP

8 staff for Kosovo? This document's signed by the minister puts Mr. Gajic,

9 who we all know was in the DB, as the deputy head.

10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, he's already twice given the factual

11 bases for his answer, so I think that the counsel's question at this point

12 is asked and answered.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'll ask him another question.

15 Q. How about Milorad Lukovic? You'll see him a couple names down,

16 assistant head for special operations. He was DB. What's the source of

17 your information that he's not on the staff?

18 A. At that time I didn't know that Milorad Lukovic was a member of

19 the staff. Later on during the war he showed up a few times down there.

20 Probably -- well, I don't know. To the best of my knowledge he was not a

21 member of the staff. Now, whether he was, I wasn't informed about it. I

22 see that that is written here and it's written for Gajic, too, and I know

23 for sure that he did not do that. Now, I mean what is written is another

24 matter.

25 As for Lukovic, then at that time I didn't even see him down there

Page 22022

1 in Pristina at the time of this. I mean, in 19 -- well, during the war in

2 1999, I showed him -- I saw him show up a few times in Pristina, but I was

3 not aware of this document. I never knew of the existence of this kind of

4 document.

5 Q. And you told us -- I see Mr. --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Allow me in respect to the

8 transcript. Page 9, line 2. The witness said that in 1998 he did not see

9 Lukovic at all, and then he saw him several times in 1999. That is what

10 the witness said in actual effect, and perhaps it would be a good thing if

11 my colleague Mr. Hannis would clarify that.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly ask that all other

13 microphones be switched off when the witness is speaking. We have great

14 difficulty. Thank you.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, do you want to deal with that?

16 MR. HANNIS: I will.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


19 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Joksic, to the best of your memory Legija, or

20 Milorad Lukovic was only in Kosovo in 1999?

21 A. No, in 1998 I did not see him in Kosovo. In 1999, during the NATO

22 bombing and during the war then I saw him two or three times. He did show

23 up in Pristina.

24 Q. And how can you be certain you did not see him in Kosovo in 1998?

25 A. In 1999 I did. I did not see him in 1998.

Page 22023

1 Q. And my question is how can you be sure that you did not see him in

2 Kosovo in 1998?

3 A. As far as I can remember, I didn't see him. Well, I mean, I was

4 down there all the time. And Pristina is not a big city so that you would

5 not see or notice if he'd come. And I was there at the SUP and at the

6 service. So I did not see him in 1998. And in 1999, I saw him about two

7 or three times.

8 Q. And as you said, Pristina is -- is fairly small. In 1998 did you

9 not see Mr. Sainovic in Pristina on numerous occasions in 1998?

10 A. I saw Mr. Sainovic several times, but most of all on television

11 rather than in direct contacts in 1998. As far as I know, at that time,

12 to the best of my knowledge, he was in charge of contacts with foreign

13 missions, diplomats and others who were staying in Kosovo and Metohija.

14 So it is in that capacity that I would see him every now and then. I did

15 not have any personal contacts with him in 1998. It was only in 1999 that

16 I did. But I saw him in Pristina because it's a small town, and the TV

17 was still working then and newspapers were writing about him meeting with

18 various foreign officials in Kosovo and Metohija.

19 Q. Did you not also see Mr. Minic and Mr. Matkovic in Pristina in

20 1998, because they, along with Mr. Sainovic, attended dozens of meetings

21 in Pristina between July and October 1998.

22 A. Yes. And those other two politicians, I saw them, too, coming

23 every now and then to Pristina. As for their specific assignments as

24 politicians, well, I wasn't informed exactly why they were coming and in

25 what capacity. I knew that Minic was president of, I think, one of the

Page 22024

1 chambers of the Federal Assembly. So it was probably in that capacity.

2 Matkovic, as far as I know, was the director of Sartid and an official of

3 the SPS, but I saw them coming there two or three times. I saw them

4 meeting up with the local politicians there in Kosovo and Metohija and

5 with the mayor and with the president of the provisional executive council

6 of Kosovo and Metohija and these other people, but I noticed that sort of

7 in passing two or three times. I saw them there in Pristina two or three

8 times, but they stayed for a very short while and they'd leave.

9 Q. And neither Mr. David Gajic or Mr. Radovic from your service told

10 you about meeting with those politicians and representatives of the public

11 security and the VJ in Pristina in 1998?

12 A. No. As for these meetings that David Gajic attended and Miroslav

13 Radovic, too, well, I knew about them because we in the service would

14 prepare information that they were exchanging there, and I knew that they

15 had meetings with members of the army and the public security. It is for

16 that purpose that we prepared for them all this information that we were

17 receiving from the ground so that they could present this information at

18 these meetings.

19 Directly who took part in these meetings, well, Gajic did not

20 convey that to me. He didn't talk about it, and there was no need to. We

21 knew what our job was. So we were supposed to exchange the information

22 that we had available so that all the rest who were in charge of security

23 in -- of security in Kosovo and Metohija could go on acting in a

24 coordinated manner.

25 Q. So if I understand correctly, what you're saying is you don't know

Page 22025

1 if these meetings Gajic went to were attended by these political people,

2 Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Minic, and Mr. Matkovic; is that right?

3 A. Yes, I don't know.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, still looking at this Exhibit P1505 from the 16th

5 of June, you'll see here under Lukovic two names down we have the

6 assistant head for special police units. I take it that's the PJP; right?

7 A. Here it says assistant head of staff special police units, Major

8 Goran Radosavljevic. I could not really interpret this, what it means

9 special police units. I know that the PJP was there. Now, whether that

10 pertains to the PJP, I don't know.

11 Q. Okay. Well, we had two names above Milorad Lukovic for special

12 operations, and you know that was the JSO; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And right. Below that, we have Lieutenant Colonel Trajkovic,

15 assistant head for special anti-terrorist units. That's the SAJ, isn't

16 it, S-A-J?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. And the next logical thing in describing the units of the police

19 would be the PJP, wouldn't it?

20 A. Well, probably the PJP, but I really could not be the Judge of

21 that.

22 Q. You told us on Friday that as far as you knew Goran Radosavljevic

23 didn't -- didn't command any units. I think you told us as far as you

24 knew he was only in charge of training; right?

25 A. Yes, in 1999. I didn't know about this in 1998, but in 1999, as

Page 22026

1 far as I was told then, as far as I knew then, he was a member of the

2 staff or assistant head of staff for the training of special police

3 units. That's what I had been told, and that's how I knew of him.

4 Q. Who told you that?

5 A. Well, I cannot remember now exactly who it was that told me. A

6 member of the staff, someone from the staff. But the members of the

7 staff, those who are written here, I mean apart from him I didn't see any

8 of these others who are listed in this decision. Zivko Trajkovic, he did

9 not come. He came rarely. Lukovic in 1999, as I already mentioned two or

10 three times. Only Goran Radosavljevic was there more often as a member of

11 the staff. It was completely different people. Mijatovic and five or six

12 other people were on the staff. In this decision the names of those

13 persons are not listed.

14 Q. Well, Mr. Joksic, do you allow for the possibility that these

15 named members in the staff had meetings that you did not attend?

16 A. I couldn't say anything about that because I don't know.

17 Q. Okay. And I see neither your name or Mr. Vilotic's name on this

18 list.

19 A. That's because we were never members of the staff.

20 Q. Okay. And I tell you on the last page, item number 6 talks about

21 with this decision coming into force, "the following shall come out of

22 force," and rather than hand you the documents again, I will tell you that

23 P1251 and P1252 that we looked at, I believe, are the ones referred to as

24 the 15 May 1998 decision and the 11 June 1998 decision that were signed by

25 Djordjevic. So it seems that the minister is -- is overriding what

Page 22027

1 General Djordjevic on the public security side of the house had proposed

2 and is creating this staff which includes both members of the DB as well

3 as the JB. Would you agree with that?

4 A. Well, the document tells me that it's like that. However, I don't

5 think had this ever got off the ground. It never began operating. This

6 document you're showing me seems to suggest just that, but I can't say

7 that I was ever aware of that. I didn't actually notice any of this in my

8 work, not at any point, especially not the fact as is suggested here that

9 David Gajic was the deputy chief of staff, as far as I knew. And I think

10 I did know quite a lot.

11 Q. Okay. One last thing before we leave this document. I think it's

12 on the -- yeah, it's on page 2 of your B/C/S. Two paragraphs above item

13 number 2. It says: "The expanded staff shall also include chiefs of the

14 secretariats for internal affairs centres -- centres and branches of the

15 RDB."

16 You're not aware of that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Let me show you one last document related to this issue. It's

19 P1811. I'll hand you a copy of that in just a second. Colonel, this is

20 another document from the minister of the interior, and this one is dated

21 the 31st of May, 1999. It's called a decision on establishment of the

22 ministry staff. Did you ever see this document before today?

23 A. No, never.

24 Q. Okay. And do you recognise the people named there under General

25 Lukic?

Page 22028

1 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour, misrepresentation. Mr. Lukic

2 never appointed these persons as members of the staff and we'll show that.

3 MR. HANNIS: I didn't say that --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the question is simply based on Lukic being

5 at the top of the list and the others are under him. It's not suggesting,

6 I don't think, command.

7 MR. LUKIC: But the translation did. I was listening to the

8 translation at that moment.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Well, it wasn't -- I gather from

10 Mr. Hannis it wasn't meant to.

11 MR. HANNIS: No.

12 Q. I was just asking if you recognise the names listed under General

13 Lukic's name on this document.

14 A. I do recognise most of the names.

15 Q. Were those people that worked with you and worked with the MUP in

16 Pristina in 1999?

17 A. Yes. For the most part except here it says "Deputy chief of the

18 staff." Okay. This is the 31st of May, 1999. Yes, that's when Bozovic

19 came to replace Mijatovic, and I do know all the other people here.

20 Q. Okay. If you go to the last page where we have the signature

21 of -- of the minister of interior, item number 6 says this decision shall

22 enter into force on the 1st of June, 1999, and then it says this decision

23 supersedes the decision number 1580/98 of 16 June 1998 which I will tell

24 you is the one that we were just looking at, Exhibit P1505.

25 Now, reading that I take it to mean that the previous decision

Page 22029

1 from 16 June 1998 had been in force until it was superseded by this one on

2 the 31st of May, 1999. Isn't that correct?

3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, the question as phrased asks the witness

4 to comment on what Mr. Hannis thinks. Whether what Mr. Hannis thinks is

5 correct, I think that's improper. It's legal conclusion and best left for

6 the trier of fact which in this case is the Trial Chamber.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

8 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I think that's something within

9 the knowledge of this witness as a member of the Ministry of Interior

10 whether a decision by the minister remains in effect unless and until it's

11 replaced by a superseding decision.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I think your question calls for him to draw the

13 conclusion that Mr. Ivetic suggests. It may be a different question could

14 be directed to whether on the face of it this is consistent with what

15 happened in the -- in Kosovo during that period.

16 MR. HANNIS: Well, I guess I have a difficulty with that, given

17 his previous answer regarding 1505 where he says as far as he knows, none

18 of those guys were members of the staff. So it's hard to ask him if

19 that's consistent with what he saw when the preceding document wasn't

20 consistent with what he says he knew.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but what would have been possible would be to

22 say that the document you're now referring to, P1811, suggests that

23 between -- is it May 1998 or --

24 MR. HANNIS: 16 June.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: -- June 1998 and the 1st of June 1999 the document

Page 22030

1 1505 and the personnel referred to in there were present, the document was

2 in effect and these personnel were present.

3 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now that he sees that, does it not remind him what

5 in fact was the position.

6 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: It's factual matters alone that really this witness

8 can deal with, Mr. Hannis.


10 Q. You told us, Mr. Joksic, that you had not seen this exhibit, P1811

11 or the previous one P1505 before coming here. Did you see any other

12 decision from the minister of interior in -- between June 16th, 1998, and

13 31 May 1999 regarding the composition of the MUP staff for Kosovo?

14 A. No, never.

15 Q. Okay. And regarding the previous one that we looked at, was

16 Colonel Trajkovic ever present in Pristina in 19 -- in the second half of

17 1998 and the first half of 1999?

18 A. As far as I know, Colonel Trajkovic, and I believe I do know about

19 this, was a commander of the SAJ unit, which was a public security sector

20 unit. I didn't know at the time whether he was a member of the staff, but

21 we knew that he was the commander of this unit that was at the time in

22 Kosovo Polje. I just saw that document which suggests that he was also a

23 member of the staff, which I didn't know at the time.

24 Q. Did you see him physically present in Kosovo in the second half of

25 1998 and the first half of 1999?

Page 22031

1 A. I did see him over there, but I can't give you the day or the

2 month that I did. I know that I used to see him in Kosovo now and again.

3 They would travel back and forth between Kosovo and Belgrade. I do know

4 for sure that during 1999, during the airstrikes, he did spend some time

5 in Kosovo. As for these months that we're talking about now, I know that

6 I saw him a couple of times. I can't tell you, though, whether it was the

7 end of the year, the beginning of the year. It has been a long time,

8 after all, and I can't say for sure. I know that I knew who Zivko

9 Trajkovic was and I knew that he was the commander of the SAJ and I know

10 that he did spend some time in Kosovo, he travelled to Kosovo, I know that

11 much. And I also know that in 1999 during the air strikes he did spend

12 time in Kosovo. As for earlier on, I did see him a couple of times but he

13 came and went and I can't say exactly when I saw him because unit was not

14 under my control and I didn't much keep track of what was going on over

15 there. I do know that I did see him every now and again, though.

16 Q. How about Major Radosavljevic? Was his nickname Gurij?

17 A. Yes, Gurij.

18 Q. And did you not see Gurij in Kosovo in the second half of 1998 and

19 the first half of 1999?

20 A. He was there during the airstrikes. I can't say about the

21 preceding period of time. In the first half of 1999 I think he was

22 actually in Kosovo, January and February, and March, and then the

23 air-strikes started. Gurij was there. I did see him there. As for 1998,

24 I can't really quite remember whether he was there all the time or not.

25 Q. Let me show you another exhibit. This is P --

Page 22032

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Hannis, please.


3 Q. This is Exhibit P2805. I'll hand you a copy of this one as well.

4 This is described as the minutes of a meeting held on the 5th of

5 November, 1998 at the ministry staff in Pristina. Have you seen this

6 document before today?

7 A. No.

8 Q. This meeting was attended by the president of the republic of

9 Serbia, Mr. Milutinovic, also by the minister of the interior, General

10 Djordjevic, Rade Markovic, your boss Mr. Vilotic, David Gajic. You don't

11 recall this meeting having taken place in early November 1998?

12 A. I do remember that the President of Serbia came, but I can't

13 remember the specific meeting.

14 Q. This looks like a pretty big meeting, a lot of people attending, a

15 lot of important people attending, including General Pavkovic and 13

16 representatives of the Pristina Corps. Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Minic,

17 Mr. Andjelkovic, Mr. Matkovic. Wasn't this a big event at the MUP staff?

18 A. Well, it's hardly my place to say whether it was big or small. I

19 know that the president came to tour Kosovo after everything that had gone

20 on in 1998. It was probably a big one. I'm looking at the list and there

21 was quite many of them, but I can't say anything more about it.

22 Q. You see among the people attending is Goran Radosavljevic. Do you

23 see his name? I think it's the second name after Colonel Mijatovic.

24 A. Yes, yes. That's what it says.

25 Q. Does that refresh your memory about whether he was in Kosovo in

Page 22033

1 1998?

2 A. Well, I for one can't remember. This suggests that he was there.

3 He probably was there. Was he there throughout, I really can't say. I

4 know about 1999, that he was. As for 1998, I did see him every now and

5 then, but I can't specifically remember. He probably was because that's

6 what the document claims.

7 MR. HANNIS: I see Mr. Petrovic on his feet.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I see that it has been

10 corrected. I believed there was a problem but there isn't.

11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Joksic, near -- near the end of the list of people attending,

13 it mentions the chiefs of the CRDB. Who were those people?

14 A. Chiefs of the state security centre in Kosovo were in Pristina,

15 Milan Lakovic in Prizren, Milivoje Savic, Bozidar Trajkovic.

16 Q. Okay. And what is ORDB?

17 A. Those are departments of the service, and these are parts of the

18 centres.

19 Q. Okay. And how many people would that be in November of 1998?

20 A. Well, there was a department in Kosovska Mitrovica, one in

21 Urosevac, one in Pec and one in --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the last place.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So a total of four. Kresin Jakovic

24 had belonged to Prizren, Urosevac belonged to Gnjilane, and Kosovska

25 Mitrovica belonged to Pristina.

Page 22034

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Was the fourth department you listed Jakovica?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.


5 Q. And you personally did not attend this meeting?

6 A. Well, I think I wasn't. My name is not there but can't remember.

7 I see that all the heads of the centres were there and departments, so I

8 was supposed to be there. I should have been there. Why wasn't I? Maybe

9 I was away on that day. I know the meeting took place. I see that was I

10 there, no, I wasn't; why wasn't I there, I don't know why I wasn't. I

11 should have been there. Maybe I simply forgot.

12 Q. Okay. Did you keep any kind of official diary during 1998 and

13 1999?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know where that diary is today?

16 A. I think this was destroyed when I retired.

17 Q. Okay. How about -- did you keep personal diary, a non-official

18 diary?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So you don't have any contemporaneous notes or accounts of where

21 you were or what was happening with you in 1998 and 1999; is that correct?

22 A. I no longer have any. I did have something like that when I was

23 still an active employee of the state security sector. According to our

24 rules of service, this sort of thing is handed over when you retire and

25 probably destroyed. I don't think I would have been allowed anyway to --

Page 22035

1 to continue to keep these as private documents in my possession. I think

2 I probably would have been prosecuted for something like that.

3 Q. Okay. In the list of people attending where it has David Gajic

4 and Milisav Miletic [sic], my English translation says RDB assistant

5 chiefs.

6 As I understood, you told us Vilotic didn't start until 1 January

7 and Gajic left at the end of December 1998. Do you know why both of them

8 were attending this meeting in November?

9 A. Yes. Milisav Vilotic, was the assistant chief of sector in

10 Belgrade. There had been decision to that effect. He came to Kosovo in

11 late December 1997 [Realtime transcript read in error "Steven"]. He was

12 supposed to replace Gajic back then. However, Gajic stayed on for another

13 year, and Vilotic remained in Kosovo as assistant chief or head of the

14 sector. He stuck around. He helped with the work of the centres. He did

15 not hold any official post for that year apart from being the assistant

16 head, but he remained in Kosovo for another year with no specific official

17 post. He had arrived in Kosovo in late December 1997. What it says here

18 assistants and so on, Gajic and Vilotic, pursuant to this decision they

19 were both assistant heads of the sector at the service's HQ.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, the transcript has some references to

21 Miletic which should be Vilotic. For example, in line 7 of page 22, line

22 12. There's no doubt you're referring to Vilotic; is that correct?

23 MR. HANNIS: That's correct. I don't know if I misspoke, but

24 that's what I intended, and I think we all understand that's who we're

25 talking about.

Page 22036

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

2 MR. IVETIC: And in Line 14 at the beginning the transcript shows

3 late December Stevan I believe it was 1997.


5 MR. IVETIC: And while Mr. Hannis is mentioning the English

6 translation of the document I note the English translation of the document

7 does have a significant error. In the paragraph where it says -- in the

8 introductory paragraph where it says Major-General Sreten Lukic, in the

9 Serbian version it says Major-General Sreten Lukic and Major-General

10 Momcilo Stojanovic, who of course is from the VJ, and then it lists

11 Mijatic [phoen], Vucurevic, Radosavljevic, Zdravkovic, Adamovic, Slovic,

12 Rajcic, Krstic and Vuckovic, staff members, and then it goes on to list

13 other persons present who were not staff members. It's a critical

14 translation issue so if -- I don't know if we need to have the CLSS verify

15 what -- what I say there's a missing -- there's a missing word in there

16 that does change the meaning somewhat.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying that there's a word used in the

18 B/C/S version that's omitted?

19 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour. Between Major-General

20 Sreten Lukic and Major-General Momcilo Stojanovic there is what would be

21 the English translation of "and."

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, we can have that rectified as you suggest, but

23 how does it alter the meaning?

24 MR. IVETIC: Well, in the Serbian when you say Major-General

25 Sreten Lukic and Momcilo Stojanovic, then there's a pause and then you

Page 22037

1 list persons and say staff members, it separates the Major-General Lukic

2 and Major-General Momcilo Stojanovic from persons who are listed as staff

3 members so it makes a -- it's a minor difference but I did want to bring

4 it to the attention since it is a document that counsel seems to be

5 interested in and is relying upon the English translation of, but clearly

6 Gajic and Vilotic are down as other participants and not as staff members,

7 which I think is of some import.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis you should resubmit this document to

9 CLSS. It obviously can be done very quickly since it's one word we're

10 talking about. Well, perhaps it's not as simple as that.

11 Mr. Bakrac.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 23, line 12, my

13 learned friend Mr. Hannis talked about Stojanovic who is, of course, from

14 the VJ. Why the "of course," since we don't know who this is a reference

15 to and it's certainly not the Stojanovic from the VJ since at the time he

16 was no major general. Back in 1998 he was a mere colonel. And if you

17 look at the evidence, that's what it clearly shows.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Your quarrel is with Mr. Ivetic and not with

19 Mr. Hannis on that score. It's Mr. Ivetic who is making that statement.

20 MR. IVETIC: The transcript records otherwise, Your Honours.

21 That's just what I was going to step up for. It is my words, and I did

22 misspeak about it being that Stojanovic. There's another Stojanovic as

23 well.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: But is it a VJ Stojanovic.

25 MR. IVETIC: No, no.

Page 22038

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Are we agreed on that, Mr. Bakrac?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Well, you can make the appropriate

4 filing once that's back to CLSS, Mr. Hannis.

5 MR. HANNIS: We will, Your Honour. Thank you.

6 Q. Mr. Joksic, I would ask you to look at one other thing in this

7 document. On the first page in your hard copy about seven lines up from

8 the bottom of that page you'll see a reference to the 27th of October,

9 1998. I want to ask you about the sentence that follows that, and this is

10 President Milutinovic speaking. He says that on the 29th of October,

11 1998, a meeting with the -- with the FRY president was held regarding the

12 situation within the army and the police.

13 Did you -- were you aware of a body called the operations

14 interdepartmental staff for the suppression of terrorism in Kosovo and

15 Metohija? Do you have any knowledge of that body?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. And with reference to that meeting, which I would suggest

18 to Your Honours is the meeting described in Exhibit P2166, if you could go

19 to the second page in B/C/S and it's the fifth line down. Mr. -- perhaps

20 the fourth line down. Mr. Milutinovic says: "Everything remains the same

21 for the Yugoslav army and police, Joint Command. VJ units are not

22 withdrawing and police forces are reduced only by the part that has

23 already been withdrawn."

24 It seems that President Milutinovic is aware of the Joint Command

25 but you and the RDB in Kosovo were not aware of it? Is that your

Page 22039

1 evidence?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You're not aware that General Lukic attended a meeting of the

4 interdepartmental staff for the suppression of terrorism in Kosovo on the

5 29th of October in Belgrade?

6 A. No. I don't know. I know that he went up there for some reason,

7 but I don't know what was going on.

8 Q. Do you know of a person named Milorad Jankovic in -- in the MUP in

9 1998, 1999?

10 A. Milorad Jankovic? No, I can't remember. I don't know that name.

11 Q. All right. Let me show you another document. This is Exhibit

12 P1693, and this is -- this is from the 1st of May, 1999. I'll hand you a

13 hard copy.

14 This appears to be a survey or report of events in -- regarding

15 the security situation between the 30th of April and the 1st of May,

16 1999. You see the last page has General Lukic's name.

17 Is this a routine document that was submitted to the minister of

18 the interior and the chiefs of the RDB and the RJB in 1999 during the war?

19 A. Yes. It's -- it's a routine overview of events for that day in

20 Kosovo and Metohija.

21 Q. Can you recall having seen this particular document before today?

22 A. No, I haven't seen it.

23 Q. Would you generally receive these documents in the course of your

24 work?

25 A. Well, I can't remember receiving them or seeing that document

Page 22040

1 accidentally at the staff. I see that information is contained here that

2 was provided by the service concerning the SUPs and the officers in charge

3 so that our data is included here as well, but we went through this

4 document where the staff reported what had happened the previous day in

5 Kosovo and Metohija.

6 I didn't receive this document individually. It wasn't copied to

7 me. You can see who the addressees are. But occasionally it's possible

8 that I saw it at the staff. I didn't see it being drafted, certainly, but

9 I'm not sure.

10 Q. One of the persons it's addressed to is Colonel Krstic as head of

11 the analytical administration. Was he in Belgrade at that time?

12 A. I think so.

13 Q. Okay. And based on what you've said just before, I gather that

14 you or your -- your group had input -- I mean, some of the information

15 contained here is information that would have come from -- from you and

16 your guys; right?

17 A. Yes. The procedure was as follows: Chiefs of centres in Kosovo

18 and Metohija would get certain intelligence, and they would pass it on to

19 us for purposes of coordination. We would assess it. If something was

20 purely local, we would tell them, "Inform the chief of SUP what's going on

21 in his territory," or he would do that of his own accord. Sometimes when

22 some information reached us that was more important we as being in charge

23 of state security coordination, we would inform the staff of what was

24 going on in Kosovo and Metohija if some major terrorist attacks were

25 expected, but for the most part, chiefs of centres would inform chiefs of

Page 22041

1 SUPs, and whenever they informed us they would make a point of saying we

2 had informed the chief of SUP or the garrison on that territory in case

3 the army needs to be informed or involved that they should be in the

4 know. That's how it was during peacetime. When the war began in Kosovo

5 all that stopped and reporting was very difficult. We did as best as we

6 could manage.

7 Q. Could you look at the last page, item number 4. It refers to

8 persons who fled the territory of Kosovo and Metohija. Do you see that?

9 And the third paragraph, the last one before -- before item number 5 says

10 between 24 April and 30 April 1999 a total of 715.158 persons belonging to

11 the Siptar national minority left the territory of the FRY. 517.000 via

12 Vrbnica, et cetera. Were you aware of that information in April of 1999?

13 A. I don't know whether I was aware of this specific information. I

14 can't remember. But we knew that people of all ethnicities were leaving

15 the territory at the beginning of the war, and we knew that members of the

16 Albanian minority community started leaving Kosovo and Metohija en masse

17 after the start of the air-strikes. They went primarily to Albania and

18 Macedonia. I was aware of this specific information that day. I just

19 can't recall precisely the day. I know that a large number of ethnic

20 Albanians left the territory of Kosovo and Metohija at the beginning of

21 the war just as Serbs did and people of other ethnicities. They even

22 started leaving before the air-strikes.

23 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about an answer you gave on Friday at page

24 21950. Mr. -- I think it was Mr. Ivetic was talking to you about the

25 JSO. You said that you had no direct -- no connection with that unit and

Page 22042

1 you thought they were stationed about four or five kilometres away from

2 Kosovska Mitrovica. You said that unit was directly linked to the chief

3 of service and they had almost no connection with us.

4 The chief of service in 1999 would have been Rade Markovic;

5 right? That's who you mean the JSO had a direct connection with?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you have any information or hear anything about the JSO being

8 deployed to Dubrava prison in 1999?

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

11 MR. IVETIC: Object insofar as Dubrava prison is a specific site

12 that has been dropped from our indictment. If the counsel is wishing to

13 bring that up, I submit that we'll have a lot more work before us.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

15 MR. HANNIS: I'm just asking if they were deployed there. It has

16 to do with command and control and who is dealing with. I'm not asking

17 about what happened there, not at this juncture.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: That appears to be consistent with what has

19 happened in relation to at least one other site. So with that

20 undertaking, Mr. Hannis, you may proceed with the question.


22 Q. Mr. Joksic, do you recall the question or should I ask it again?

23 A. Please repeat.

24 Q. Did you have any information or hear anything about the JSO being

25 deployed to Dubrava prison in 1999?

Page 22043

1 A. No, I had no such information. I had the information that I

2 mentioned on Friday, that they were deployed four to five kilometres of

3 Kosovska Mitrovica, but to date I don't know the exact location.

4 Q. In your answer you said, "They had almost no connection with us."

5 So that sounds like they had some connection with you, however slight.

6 What was that connection?

7 A. No. They had no connection with us whatsoever. It was the chief

8 of sector who was directly in charge of commanding over them, and we had

9 nothing to do with them.

10 Q. Okay. Could the minister of interior not issue an order to the

11 JSO?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. And how about during a state of war? Could not the Supreme

14 Command or Mr. Milosevic issue an order to the JSO?

15 A. I don't know that. I don't think they could. I know that

16 according to our rules the unit was responsible only to the chief of

17 sector. Except the chief of sector, I don't believe anyone was able to

18 directly command the unit.

19 Q. Okay. You mentioned that in a previous period before 1998 and

20 1999, this is at page 21951 in the transcript: "We as members of the

21 service could ask the chief of the RDB, if we were carrying out a complex

22 action, to have a part of the JSO engaged in it. I think this occurred on

23 only two or three occasions throughout my stay from 1992 to 1999."

24 What -- what changed prior to 1998 and 1999? Couldn't you in 1998

25 and 1999 still request the chief of the RDB to have the JSO engaged?

Page 22044

1 A. As we know the chief of -- the service of state security gathers

2 operative intelligence. They don't conduct armed operations against

3 terrorists. And in years before 1998 and 1999, for instance if we had

4 intelligence that there was an armed group that ordinary police units

5 could not tackle and arrest, that it's likely they would put up a lot of

6 resistance and kill a lot of people, then 10 or 15 men from a specialised

7 unit would come to arrest the suspected terrorists and that's how the job

8 would be done. That's what we could do then. In 1998 and 1999, we

9 couldn't do it the same way because the situation was different. There

10 was an armed insurgency by terrorists, and all other units were engaged to

11 combat them, not our service. Why would our service do it? Half

12 [Realtime transcript read in error "happen"] of our personnel don't even

13 know how to shoot.

14 Q. But the guys in JSO know how to shoot; right?

15 A. Yes. That was the best trained unit for combatting terrorism out

16 of all those we had.

17 Q. And the JSO was engaged in anti-terrorist operations in 1998 and

18 1999 in Kosovo, in joint operations with the VJ; right?

19 A. Well, I don't know that, but probably. I don't know specifically

20 where they were engaged and how, because we had nothing to do with them.

21 Q. Okay.

22 MR. IVETIC: Just a transcript issue, Your Honours. Page 31, line

23 9, "happen," I believe should be "half of" instead of "happen of."

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

25 MR. HANNIS: I agree, thank you.

Page 22045

1 Q. So you -- you weren't aware of the JSO being engaged in any of

2 those anti-terrorist operations in Kosovo. I take it then you don't know

3 who would have coordinated their being engaged in joint operations with

4 the VJ, do you?

5 A. I don't know, but according to the rules it should be the chief of

6 sector. I don't know, however, who coordinated in specific operations.

7 It was probably the chief. It couldn't have been anyone else.

8 Q. Okay. You said on -- on Friday that other than perhaps one JSO

9 reserve officer being involved in -- in an individual killing that you

10 were not aware of any other crimes committed by members of the JSO in

11 Kosovo in the course of 1999; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Prior to the 17th of May, 1999, did you receive any request

14 from -- from the deputy minister Rade Markovic or anyone from his office

15 for information about crimes that the JSO might have been involved in?

16 A. I don't remember that we received that request. In fact, we

17 surely didn't. They couldn't request it from us because we didn't know

18 anything about that as members of the service in Kosovo and Metohija.

19 Q. Okay. And how about the presence of Arkan's in Kosovo in 1999?

20 Is that something your service would have been aware of?

21 A. We were not aware of the presence of Arkan's men in Kosovo and

22 Metohija until I saw some statements in this trial saying that they were

23 there. All I can say is that there were no Arkan's men in Pristina.

24 The only thing that's possible, although I don't know this, that

25 they were in the reserve forces of the JSO but that the state security

Page 22046

1 sector knew they were in Kosovo and Metohija. Outside reserve JSO units,

2 we didn't know. I know that there was some sort of staff in the Grand

3 Hotel, since I lived there in some hidden basis during the air-strikes I

4 know that there was no staff of Arkan's men in the Grand Hotel. But in

5 1992, seven years before the war when Arkan was doing his electoral

6 campaign in Kosovo, their entire staff was in the Grand Hotel, and at that

7 time five deputies were elected from Kosovo and Metohija, but that was an

8 electoral campaign headquarters in the Grand Hotel in 1992, not during the

9 war.

10 MR. HANNIS: Mr. Petrovic.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, page 32, line 25. It

13 says: "I know there was some staff in the Grand Hotel." There's a whole

14 passage missing. The witness actually said that during proofing he found

15 out that some people were saying that during the war there was some sort

16 of staff or headquarters in the Grand Hotel.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, do you wish to clarify that? The

18 answer seems to be translated in a way that doesn't reflect the whole of

19 what the witness said.

20 MR. HANNIS: I can ask him.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you should. Thanks.


23 Q. Mr. Joksic, you've heard the discussion that just took place. Can

24 you clarify for us what your answer was about a staff in the Grand Hotel

25 during the war?

Page 22047

1 A. During the war there was no headquarters of Arkan's men in the

2 Grand Hotel, and I said, although you didn't ask me that, that he had an

3 electoral headquarters in 1992 when he was --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: We got that. We got that answer. The question was

5 whether there was any other staff office in the Grand Hotel. Forget about

6 Arkan.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We who were legal occasionally

8 used the basement of the Grand Hotel to hold meetings after the

9 air-strikes when the MUP building in Pristina was destroyed. That's down

10 there underground in the basement of the Grand Hotel. That's where we met

11 a few times.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: You've been translated as saying we who were legal

13 occasionally used the basement of the Grand Hotel to hold meetings after

14 the air strikes in Pristina. What did you actually say? It doesn't sound

15 right in English.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members of the army, the MUP staff,

17 and I as a member of the service of state security met there, held

18 meetings there.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note the witness in his first

21 answer did say "we who were legal."


23 Q. What kind of meetings did you have in the basement with the army

24 in 1999?

25 A. Those were not official meetings. It was in the evenings, because

Page 22048

1 all of us had our bases where we hid during the war. We would meet up

2 there but only after the MUP was hit during air-strikes. We would meet

3 there to exchange information about what had happened that day in Kosovo

4 and Metohija. It was not an official sort of meeting. We just exchanged

5 information about where air-strikes had been during that day, what had

6 happened, and sometimes we had dinner there, all of us. So those were not

7 official meetings with minutes kept. We just told each other the latest

8 news, and we made a point of splitting up as early as possible so as --

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, page --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- so as not to get killed.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

12 MR. IVETIC: Page 34, lines 24, we would meet there to exchange

13 information. He said the number of times and it wasn't -- I don't want to

14 suggest the answer. Maybe we could ask him how many times and it will be

15 clear without me suggesting it.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.


18 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many times you're talking about,

19 Mr. Joksic?

20 A. I couldn't recall exactly how many times. Two or three times,

21 maybe.

22 Q. Any civilians attend any of those meetings?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And --

25 A. During the war, no.

Page 22049

1 Q. Who from the -- who from the VJ attended these meetings?

2 A. As far as I can remember, there were two or three times when

3 Generals Pavkovic and Lazarevic attended. Sometimes this security officer

4 would come with them, Momir Stojanovic. I'm not sure. I think Momir was

5 there because we directly exchanged information, the two of us. And on

6 behalf of the staff, the chief, Lukic, represented the staff. I was there

7 as member of the state security and Miso Miletic -- Vilotic. Correction.

8 Vilotic.

9 Q. Was it just the three of you then from the MUP, Lukic and Vilotic

10 and yourself? Anybody else from MUP?

11 A. I don't think so at these briefings. They were short, 10, 15

12 minutes for purposes of exchanging information. I don't know. Perhaps

13 occasionally somebody would come from the staff if they needed to bring

14 some sort of information, but ...

15 Q. You're not aware of a 17 May 1999 meeting that Rade Markovic

16 attended with President Milosevic, Mr. Sainovic, General Ojdanic and other

17 representatives from the army to discuss certain alleged crimes by members

18 of both the VJ and the MUP?

19 A. No, I don't know about that.

20 Q. You said you became aware after, through some statements made at

21 this trial about some of that. Were you aware there's evidence in this

22 case that Rade Markovic reported at that meeting that Arkan had offered a

23 hundred volunteers but that he had only taken 30 of them, and he confirmed

24 there were 30 members of Arkan's unit in Kosovo, that they'd been in

25 Kosovo Polje and that they had allegedly killed an elderly couple there.

Page 22050

1 You didn't know anything about that in 1999?

2 A. No. I was not aware of that.

3 Q. And at that same meeting we have evidence that General Pavkovic

4 mentioned bodies being found in Jezerce and Rade Markovic acknowledged

5 that was a village in an area under the JSO's responsibility and that in

6 fact Legija had been there. You didn't know about either?

7 A. No. I was not informed of that.

8 Q. Did -- did Trajkovic work in the same building with you in 1999?

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if he could specify. There are several

10 Trajkovics that are in the police structures.


12 Q. I'm sorry. This is the Trajkovic connected with the SAJ, the

13 S-A-J, who we saw listed in Exhibit P1505 earlier this morning. Do you

14 know who I'm talking about?

15 A. Yes, I know. He wasn't with us. He was with his own special unit

16 stationed in Kosovo Polje.

17 Q. Okay. And speaking of crimes alleged against RDB personnel, you

18 were aware about the allegations that Milorad Nisevic from Suva Reka was

19 charged in connection with some war crimes in that area during the war?

20 Did you know about that?

21 A. During the war we were not aware of that. And as for the alleged

22 crimes in Suva Reka, I found out about that much, much later after the war

23 from press reports and other media. I heard proceedings were started and

24 certain individuals were arrested and charged with crimes in Suva Reka.

25 During the war we didn't know that, and as I said, I only found out after

Page 22051

1 retirement. I didn't even know about it for the time when I was still

2 employed until 2001. I read about it later.

3 Q. We've heard that I think you took a couple of trips to Belgrade in

4 connection with Mr. Rugova, but other than that, during the war in Kosovo

5 were you in Pristina the whole time?

6 A. I was in Pristina all the time except for when I travelled with

7 Rugova to Belgrade.

8 Q. Okay. And while you were in Pristina -- we've had evidence from

9 some Pristina Albanians who indicated that they were -- they were forced

10 out of their home by -- by Serb forces and directed to the train station

11 where they got on the trains and were taken to the border with Macedonia.

12 You were in town all that time. Didn't you see hundreds or

13 thousands of the Kosovo Albanian civilians being directed to the train

14 station by Serb police and/or Serb soldiers?

15 A. I was present in Pristina, and I did see columns of Albanians that

16 were moving towards the railway station and the bus station in order to

17 leave from Kosovo and Metohija. I did not see anyone forcing them to go

18 from Kosovo and Metohija.

19 I know another thing too. Directly from Rade Markovic a few days

20 after the departure started, Rade Markovic called me and said, "Joksic,

21 tell the colleagues down there if I don't find them, tell the colleagues

22 from the public security sector to prevent the departure of Albanians from

23 Kosovo and Metohija by all means." That is the direct order that I

24 received from Rade Markovic. I conveyed that later to General Lukic. We

25 tried. We called these check-points at the border that they should be

Page 22052

1 returned, and we even had this terrible misfortune that we were telling

2 people to go back, and then afterwards during the course of the night they

3 would be bombed by NATO aircraft. So they were hurt more than had they

4 left for Albania. I think there were two or three cases like that.

5 So in spite of all our efforts during the boarding onto trains at

6 the railway station and there at the border where there were our

7 check-points and where people were trying -- well, people were frightened,

8 and for the most part, they would leave Kosovo and Metohija.

9 I'm saying that I know this one time that General Markovic called

10 me and said that we should try to do everything to prevent these

11 departures. We didn't want to apply force, and we were not in a position

12 to apply force to stop them, but we were trying to persuade people.

13 However, we proved to be unsuccessful. So quite a few of them crossed

14 over either into Albania or Macedonia.

15 Q. So when was this phone call approximately? What date?

16 A. I think that that was in the beginning of April. Maybe one of

17 those days since I went to Belgrade with Rugova on the 1st of April and

18 then I came back. So perhaps it was after the 5th or 6th of April. He

19 actually insisted on the fact that they had received information that

20 quite a few people were leaving Kosovo and Metohija and that we should do

21 whatever we could in order to keep them there. I know that from the

22 political organs there, I mean we were giving these refugees food. It was

23 the provisional Executive Council. Doctors went there to treat people, to

24 give them medication, but it was hard to keep them from leaving Kosovo and

25 Metohija.

Page 22053

1 Q. So how is it that Rade Markovic, the chief of the DB, thinks that

2 he or you can direct the public security side about what to do? I thought

3 the two were separate.

4 A. These are two separate sectors, but what he said to me was that

5 probably the leadership of the RDB in Kosovo and Metohija would get the

6 same instruction but he conveyed this to me and at that particular moment

7 there was no one there from the public security and he told me to convey

8 it to them and they would get direct instructions from their own

9 leadership, from their chief of section or from the minister, whoever, but

10 he told me that I should convey that everything should be done to have

11 people stay there, not leave Kosovo and Metohija.

12 Q. Now, in your earlier answer you said you conveyed this answer from

13 Markovic to General Lukic. So did you do that because you understood him

14 to have authority over the public security guys in Kosovo?

15 A. No, no, no, not because of that. Quite simply this was conveyed

16 to me and that I should make him aware of what the message was. It wasn't

17 an order. Rade Markovic could not issue orders to them.

18 Q. Well, your answer, and I'm reading from the English translation,

19 page 38, starting at line 16, "Directly from Rade Markovic a few days

20 after the departure started Rade Markovic called me and said, 'Joksic,

21 tell the colleagues down there if I don't find them, tell the colleagues

22 from the public security sector to prevent the departure of Albanians from

23 Kosovo and Metohija by all means.' That is the correct order that I

24 received from Rade Markovic. I conveyed that later to General Lukic."

25 That's what you said before. Are you wanting to change your

Page 22054

1 answer now?

2 A. No. What I stated was that I received orders for myself to take

3 all measures, that the service should take all measures that they could.

4 I mean and that in cooperation with colleagues from the RJB measures

5 should be taken and that they -- well, I didn't say this here now but they

6 would specifically receive instructions probably from their own

7 leadership. And he conveyed to me that the service should do whatever it

8 can, in cooperation with the RJB to stop the columns of refugees leaving

9 Kosovo and Metohija.

10 Q. And one of the reasons he conveyed that message to you to pass on

11 to public security was because the public security were directing the

12 people to leave, directing the Kosovo Albanians civilians to leave

13 Pristina; right?

14 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour. This question has no bases

15 in the testimony of this witness and is being presented purely

16 argumentatively.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: That certainly seems to me to be a perfectly

18 legitimate question in the context, so you may ask that question,

19 Mr. Hannis.


21 Q. I'll ask it again, Mr. Joksic. One the reasons Rade Markovic

22 conveyed that message to you to pass on to public security was because the

23 public security were the ones directing the people to leave, the Kosovo

24 Albanians to leave Pristina; right?

25 A. That is not right. That is your opinion. No one gave them

Page 22055

1 instructions to leave Pristina as far as I know. And it is not correct

2 that that was done by the public security.

3 Q. You were asked about Shaun Byrnes and some of his contacts with

4 the KLA. You mentioned in -- at page 21961 on Friday that, "We do have

5 that information in relation to Shaun Byrnes. We have -- we also have

6 information out there that is an integral part of a statement in the

7 investigative proceedings where he was giving them advice," meaning the

8 KLA. You said: "I remember this particular unit in the Lab area and he

9 was saying they were well-equipped, well-trained and that they should keep

10 it for the future."

11 So from that document, as I gather, you just knew that he met with

12 them. You didn't know specifically what was discussed between them, do

13 you?

14 A. That is not correct. We did know what it was that they were

15 talking about.

16 Q. Did you have tape recordings of the conversation?

17 A. Well, reading the reports, we probably had recordings, too, but I

18 wouldn't be sure of that now. I'm telling you now about what was stated

19 in the information that was written by our operatives. There could have

20 been two sources of knowledge in relation to the conversations. They

21 either had eavesdropping equipment or one of our collaborators may have

22 been planted there and he could have been listening in on the

23 conversation. I cannot say exactly what the source was of this

24 information, but it's one of those two. That must be correct, because we

25 were following the activities of the KLA and there in that brigade we had

Page 22056

1 our own collaborators who reported to us about what was going on.

2 Q. And your interpretation of that conversation was that Shaun Byrnes

3 was encouraging them to save their good equipment and their good unit for

4 what was going to happen in the future, the big planned offensive in the

5 spring; right? That's your interpretation?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Wouldn't you agree with me, sir, that it might be an equally good

8 interpretation that Shaun Byrnes was legitimately trying to reduce the

9 violence and maintain the peace and buy time for the negotiations in

10 Rambouillet and Paris to work? Isn't that possible?

11 A. In my view, no. Knowing the overall situation --

12 Q. Thank you. You've answered the question. That's all I needed.

13 A. In my --

14 Q. Your lawyer can ask on redirect if he wants to follow that up.

15 You were monitoring Shaun Byrnes. Were you also trying to monitor General

16 Clark and Naumann in October 1998 when they were in Serbia trying to

17 negotiate with President Milosevic?

18 A. Well, probably they were doing that, but I don't know about that,

19 because at that time I was in Kosovo and Metohija, and if they are the

20 right kind of service, they probably did that up there too.

21 Q. You mean your service, the DB?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Okay. But -- so you weren't aware in October 1998 or even up to

24 the war in 1999 what Mr. Milosevic had told Clark and Naumann about how he

25 proposed to take care of the Kosovo problem?

Page 22057

1 A. No, I didn't know about that. The president of the country did

2 not inform us lower-ranking officials about that.

3 Q. Could we --

4 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, is it a good for the break? I

5 need to go to another document now.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We'll break now. We have to break at

7 this stage, Mr. Joksic. We will resume in half an hour. Meanwhile could

8 you please leave the courtroom with the usher.

9 And we will sit again at 11.15.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 --- Recess taken at 10.44 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

13 MR. HANNIS: Judge, while the witness is coming in I just wanted

14 to raise one procedural matter. We have a transcript of General Lukic's

15 interview with the OTP. The original was English only, the same situation

16 we had with the Lazarevic interview. We now have a merged version with

17 B/C/S and English. We would like to attach it in e-court to Exhibit

18 number P948, because we previously referred to the original version with

19 English only and made some references to page numbers, so it will be

20 helpful to have both and we seek leave to do that.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any objection to that course of action?

22 Mr. Bakrac.

23 [The witness stakes the stand]

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Ivetic.

Page 22058

1 MR. IVETIC: None, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you. Well, we will authorise

3 that, Mr. Hannis.

4 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Joksic, I want to ask you about another document. This is

6 P1990. With the usher's help I will hand you a hard copy. This is dated

7 the 17th of February, 1999, and it's a meeting of the Pristina MUP staff,

8 minister of the interior, and Generals Djordjevic and Markovic as well as

9 General Stojilkovic are in attendance and your boss Mr. Vilotic also

10 attended. Have you seen that document before today or do you remember

11 this meeting from February 1999?

12 A. No, I have not seen this document until today. I don't remember

13 this at all.

14 Q. Okay. I want to direct your attention to -- to page 3 in the

15 B/C/S. It's page 5 in the English, Your Honours. And Mr. Joksic, I will

16 tell you that the speaker that this is credited to is -- is the minister

17 Stojiljkovic. Do you see a part that's highlighted in orange on your page

18 there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'm reading from the English translation. The top of page 3, the

21 third line: "We are counting on phases of pressure. Within two or three

22 days of an attack," and this is talking about a NATO attack, "we have to

23 put our plans in motion and use the time to mop up the territory from

24 terrorists."

25 Do you recall that being discussed or do you recall see anything

Page 22059

1 in writing about that, that part of the plan was if and when NATO attacked

2 the immediate plans were to try and get rid of all the terrorists in those

3 first few days?

4 A. No. I was not aware of that plan.

5 Q. Okay. And if you could go to the -- to the last page. There are

6 a number of points raised, and the second one up from the bottom talks

7 about raise -- we're on page 6 of the English, raise discipline,

8 behaviour, and appearance of policemen to a high level. Do away with

9 Rambo-style caps and bandannas. Were you aware that that was a problem

10 with the police in early 1999?

11 A. No, I don't know about that.

12 Q. Then let me turn to another topic. You were questioned by

13 Mr. Petrovic yesterday about Mr. Rugova. At page 21987, you said there

14 was a big media campaign and speculation about whether had he was alive or

15 not. You told us you consulted with Vilotic as to what you should do and

16 the two of you agreed that you should go to Rugova's house and contact

17 him.

18 Did you receive no instruction or direction from above, or was

19 this your original idea between you and Vilotic?

20 A. At that moment it was only our idea because we knew about all

21 these problems. When we found out that he was in his house and that he

22 was alive, we thought we should go there and talk to him and ask him

23 whether he would be prepared to state in public that he's alive, that he

24 wasn't even wounded. So it was our decision at that moment.

25 Q. And before going to his house to ask him about that did you

Page 22060

1 consult with Rade Markovic or any of your superiors?

2 A. No. No. Only after having gone there.

3 Q. And when you went there who went? Was it just you or you and

4 Vilotic?

5 A. No. From the service it was only I, and I took along with me the

6 director of the media centre in Pristina that was in the Grand Hotel. I

7 know his last name was Urosevic. I told you the first day that I'm not

8 very good with names. My memory doesn't serve me well there. But

9 Urosevic was his last name. I can't remember his first name.

10 Q. Okay. I think we've heard some evidence about that and we

11 probably know who you're talking about. You said at page 21987, line 15,

12 that when you got there you found several members of the public security

13 in front of the house. Did you -- did you have any conversation with them

14 the first time you went there?

15 A. No. I just asked, is Mr. Rugova in the house? They said yes.

16 And I went into the house and established contact with Rugova.

17 Q. Approximately how many public security people were there at the

18 house when you went that first time?

19 A. Well, I cannot remember exactly now, but say around five or six of

20 them.

21 Q. Do you know who was in charge of them?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. Do you know when and how they came to be there?

24 A. No, I don't know about that either.

25 Q. Okay. Were you -- were you in civilian clothes or did you wear a

Page 22061

1 uniform?

2 A. Civilian clothes.

3 Q. Did -- did these guys recognise you or did you show them some kind

4 of identification? How was it that they just let you in?

5 A. Since I had spent a lot of time in Kosovo and Metohija, I think

6 that they recognised me. But when I passed by them I introduced myself.

7 I said that I was Ljubivoje Joksic from the state security centre.

8 Q. Did you carry a weapon, a sidearm?

9 A. [No interpretation].

10 Q. And then you mentioned you spoke to Dr. Rugova. Eventually you

11 went back to the press centre and brought the journalist over and he gave

12 a statement about being alive and well. You went on to tell us at page

13 21988 that after that press conference you agreed with your colleagues

14 from state security that they shouldn't be inside Rugova's house. Had any

15 of them been inside the house when you got there that first day?

16 A. When I arrived on the first day they were in front of the house,

17 and when you just walk into the house there is this entrance hall and then

18 there's this door where there was a room where in the previous days Rugova

19 held press conferences. I know that from TV. On one wall there were

20 photographs of Rugova with Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul and others. So I

21 remember seeing that room on those -- on TV from those press conferences.

22 There were public security men there.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, that question was translated as, "You

24 agreed with your colleagues from state security that they shouldn't be

25 inside Rugova's house"; is that correct?

Page 22062

1 MR. HANNIS: Well, that's what his answer says in the transcript.

2 I -- I think I should clear that up because I understood he probably meant

3 public security.



6 Q. When you told us that on Friday did you mean that you agreed with

7 the guys from public security that they shouldn't be inside the house?

8 The answer was previously transcribed as state security, but I think you

9 meant you talked to your colleagues from public security and agreed that

10 they shouldn't be inside the house. Is that right?

11 A. I'll explain that now.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. When I established contact with Rugova, Mr. Rugova, when I went

14 into the house, when I talked to him and when he agreed to make a

15 statement at a press conference, when I went out there I talked to the

16 chief of the sector in Pristina, the state security, and he gave me two

17 operatives from the state security. So it is from that moment that they

18 entered the entrance hall. Men in civilian clothing. They entered the

19 entrance hall, whereas the colleagues from the public security were the

20 external security of Rugova's house. So from that moment when I showed up

21 and when I agreed with Rugova that he would hold a press conference, I

22 provided for two operatives from the state security who were in the

23 entrance hall close to where the press conference would be held and also

24 later on when we secured the house of Rugova. However, our colleagues

25 from the public security, we agreed with them that they had nothing more

Page 22063

1 to do there any longer so they were only external security.

2 Q. Just so I'm clear, so when you got there that first day, there

3 were a couple of public security guys inside the house in that entryway

4 near where Rugova sometimes held press conferences?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then you said you spoke with the chief of your sector about

9 that and agreed that you should have state security guys inside the house,

10 not public security; right?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Who was that? Is that -- that you spoke to, the chief --

13 A. The chief of the centre, Milan Lakovic.

14 Q. Okay. And who did you -- who did you talk to on the public

15 security side to tell them, "Take your guys out," or did you just tell

16 those two guys who were there to go outside? How did that transpire?

17 A. I've already said that just then I said that they should not be in

18 the house. I said it right there, because there's a big family there,

19 lots of children. They should go out. They did listen to me. They

20 obeyed me, although it was not for me to give them any orders but we

21 simply agreed as human beings. And then later on through the chief the

22 centre I reached this agreement. I mean, he and the chief of SUP in

23 Pristina agreed that they would provide for the external security of

24 Ibrahim Rugova's house. So that functioned all this time for a month and

25 even more than that.

Page 22064

1 Q. And did you -- when did you report about this to -- to your

2 superior in -- in Belgrade? Was it after the press conference was held?

3 A. After the press conference was held, I called the chief of sector

4 and I informed him about what we'd been doing.

5 Q. When you say chief of sector, do you mean the chief of sector in

6 Pristina?

7 A. No, no, no. The one in Belgrade, Rade Markovic.

8 Q. Okay. Then you told us about when Mr. Sainovic came to Pristina,

9 and I think that first time you said, at page 21989: "He arrived that

10 evening. He contacted me, and they spoke in Rugova's house. I took him

11 to Rugova's house and they spoke."

12 How was it that Sainovic got in touch with you? Do you know who

13 told him that you were the one to talk to about seeing Rugova?

14 A. First of all I need to clarify this. On the 1st of April, I took

15 Mr. Rugova to Belgrade and put him in contact with the president, Slobodan

16 Milosevic. So contact was established. You hadn't asked me about that,

17 so I won't be explaining now.

18 I flew back to Pristina I think on the 4th of April. I got a

19 phone call from Rade Markovic, the chief of sector, and he said the

20 vice-president of the federal government Sainovic would be there to talk

21 to Rugova, please take him to Rugova because Sainovic didn't know where he

22 was. He said to welcome him on arrival and take him there, and this is

23 precisely what happened on the evening of the 4th he arrived in Pristina.

24 I met up with Mr. Sainovic and I took him to Rugova.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

Page 22065

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, it's for the transcript.

3 It's page 51, line 12. And full stop now. It's not the same sentence

4 that I went to Pristina I think on the 4th of April. I think these are

5 two different sentences and they confer an entirely different meaning on

6 what the witness is saying.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: You said, Mr. Joksic, that you went to Belgrade on

8 the 1st of April. When did you fly back to Pristina?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same day.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And it was the 4th of April that Markovic

11 telephoned you?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st of April. I returned to

13 Pristina on the 1st with Rugova and Markovic called me on the 4th.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. That clarifies it.

15 Mr. Hannis.

16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

17 Q. And on that first trip to Belgrade did you drive or did you fly?

18 A. Drove.

19 Q. And in the car it was you and Rugova and Merovci and another

20 person from the DB?

21 A. No, just the driver.

22 Q. Okay. All right. Now, when -- when Rade Markovic called you a

23 few days after this return from Belgrade, why was it he contacting you

24 about this? He didn't contact Vilotic.

25 A. Because I was the one who was involved in this context with

Page 22066

1 Rugova.

2 Q. And who had made that decision that you would be the one? Was

3 that because you'd been the first one to go out there that day on the 1st

4 of April, 31st of March?

5 A. Probably because I was the first to get in touch with him. I was

6 the first to talk to him, and we had agreed that he would call that press

7 conference, and he had agreed to go to Belgrade with me to see President

8 Milosevic. That was probably why I was then to continue working with

9 Rugova.

10 Q. Who made the -- who made the initial decision that you should be

11 the one to go to the house? Was that your idea or Vilotic's idea or a

12 joint idea?

13 A. Vilotic and I decided this together.

14 Q. And -- and do you know why the two of you decided you should be

15 the one?

16 A. Because one of our tasks was to try and find the leaders of those

17 political parties, well-known people, to make sure they were safe and to

18 keep them out of harm's way. The chief of sector had given us that

19 assignment earlier on when we found out that Rugova was there, this was a

20 good opportunity to get in touch with him straight away just to keep him

21 out of harm's way. As I testified on Friday, Mr. Rugova was receiving

22 threats all the time from the KLA that he would be liquidated even earlier

23 on even prior to 1998 and in the course of 1998 and also early in 1999.

24 Q. Let me stop you there. I don't think you really answered my

25 question. It is why did the two of you decide you should be the one? Had

Page 22067

1 you had any prior dealings with Mr. Rugova?

2 A. No. No, never.

3 Q. Did you -- did you speak Albanian?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Is it because you'd been in Kosovo longer or is it because you're

6 sort of a physically imposing guy with a deep voice?

7 A. No. That's not the reason. The reason was that I happened to be

8 there. I had been in Kosovo for a long time. Well, that was the reason.

9 The two of us were talking about this, but then Vilotic decides it by

10 saying, You go and finish the job. There was no special reason for me

11 being the one. It could have been anyone else really.

12 Q. Okay. Well, you've told us then on the next page that you think

13 that Sainovic came three or four times and you took him to see Rugova and

14 they would talk and then he would go back to Belgrade. Did you -- did you

15 report internally in the DB about these meetings? Did you write any

16 reports about it?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And you told us that you did not attend all those talks between

19 Sainovic and Rugova. I think your answer was for the most part over 70

20 per cent of them, and then you described the atmosphere at those meetings

21 that you thought they both did their best to create an atmosphere of

22 mutual trust and confidence and there were never any bad words or serious

23 conflicts, but you can only speak about the meetings you attended. You

24 don't know what transpired between them when you weren't there, obviously;

25 right?

Page 22068

1 A. Of course, that's right, but neither of them ever told me after

2 that that they had disagreed on anything. As for direct talks with

3 Rugova, I think I had attended over 70 per cent. It's just a ballpark

4 figure that I'm giving you. Maybe there were times when I wasn't there,

5 but for the most part I was there for these talks.

6 Q. And did you -- did you attend conversations between Mr. Sainovic

7 and Mr. Merovci?

8 A. For the most part.

9 Q. But during all this time up until arrangements were made for

10 Mr. Rugova and Mr. Merovci and their families to leave, basically their

11 family was under house arrest, weren't they?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You mentioned that there was a meeting with President Milutinovic,

14 and you said -- yeah. You mentioned that your chief of service called you

15 about arrangements for Mr. Rugova and Merovci to be brought to Belgrade so

16 they can depart the country. That's Rade Markovic you're talking about in

17 that context?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. All right. And in your answer at page 21995, this is the English

20 translation. You said: "And we took Rugova with his family, because in

21 the meantime when we realised that he would be released -- or, rather,

22 that he would be taken abroad, I organised two jeeps to transfer his

23 family from Kosovo to Belgrade."

24 I suggest you were correct the first time when you said, "When we

25 realised that he would be released," because in effect he was being held

Page 22069

1 there, in your view, I suppose to protect him from the KLA, but he wasn't

2 free to leave unless you all gave him permission; right?

3 A. That's not right. Before we found him, he was too afraid to leave

4 his home until we found out where he was. Rugova was the one who refused

5 to leave. There was no house arrest of any kind. And another thing that

6 proves this is the fact that Merovci who would go there came and went as

7 he pleased. He would go to Skopje, he would walk around Pristina

8 looking for Rugova's associates. Therefore it is not true at all that he

9 was under any sort of house arrest.

10 Q. Well, you answered my question before and said you didn't know how

11 or when the public security police had arrived at his house and were

12 around the house. You don't know how long they'd been there, do you,

13 before the 31st of March.

14 A. No. On the 31st when I went there to talk to Rugova, they were

15 there. Prior to the 31st of March I don't know if they were there or

16 not. I don't believe that they were. That's when I said that they should

17 leave the entrance hall and that they should secure the house from

18 outside. And I brought two state security operatives later on who then

19 stood guard at the door.

20 Q. Okay. But the police during the external security after -- after

21 your arrival, these are police in uniforms with weapons; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Long-barrelled guns?

24 A. I can't remember specifically. I think automatic ones. Yes,

25 rifles.

Page 22070

1 Q. And -- and neither Mr. Rugova nor his family were allowed outside

2 the house during all that time except before arrangements were made for

3 them to leave the country, right, except when Mr. Rugova was taken to

4 Belgrade for a couple of meetings. Isn't that right?

5 A. No. They themselves refused to leave the house. They were too

6 afraid to leave the house. Both Mr. Rugova and Merovci asked for the

7 house to be guarded and their entire families to be guarded, both Rugova

8 and Merovci. It was their personal request that we [Realtime transcript

9 read in error "they"] should guard the house.

10 Q. Were you aware that when you first arrived and had a couple of

11 your security men set up outside that there was a German journalist, a

12 female German journalist in Rugova's house?

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I'm sorry for the interruption, but 57,

14 1, it was their personal request that we should guard the house, not they

15 should guard the house. Thank you.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Through, Mr. Zecevic. Mr. Hannis.


18 Q. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mr. Joksic. Were you not aware that there

19 was a German journalist, a woman named Renate Flottau F-l-o-t-t-a-u, I

20 believe, in Mr. Rugova's house?

21 A. Yes. We didn't know that at the time. At the time we didn't know

22 that this lady was there nor did they tell us that she was there. There

23 were quite a number of his family members and relatives that I wasn't

24 inclined to go to each and every room just to check who was there. He

25 said there are 17 of us here. I took that for granted and I didn't go to

Page 22071

1 any of the rooms. The Albanians can be a bit peculiar in this respect,

2 the women, you know, that sort of thing, so men don't go to those rooms

3 upstairs. I know about this particular custom that they had, and that's

4 why I was not inclined to go to any of the rooms to check. They told me

5 that there were 17 of them there. I took that at face value.

6 Q. And you really didn't need to worry about that because they were

7 all going to be kept there and only allowed outside if and when you, and I

8 mean you collectively, the police, the DB and the JB, permitted it. Isn't

9 that correct?

10 A. No, that's not correct.

11 Q. You mentioned that during the war communications were bad for your

12 service, but you told us that in connection with Mr. Rugova you did manage

13 to connect another phone so he could stay in contact with the rest of the

14 world, for example, with Hill in Skopje and other officials; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I take it those conversations were probably closely

17 monitored? That would be standard practice with your service, wouldn't

18 it?

19 A. It was standard practice. It's just it was very difficult to

20 organise at the time. The reason being the telecommunication

21 installations had been destroyed from which this could have been done.

22 Therefore, I'm not sure that those conversations were eavesdropped on, the

23 conversations that Rugova had from his home. The post office in Pristina

24 had been destroyed.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you.

Page 22072

1 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I'm sorry, I have a question. This is from the

6 Bench. I have a question. What were your own views about Dr. Rugova,

7 because you travelled with him to Belgrade. You establish a contact.

8 What did you think of him as a -- as a person and as a politician or

9 whatever? Can you give us some views, your personal views? Thank you

10 very much.

11 A. I got an impression during my years of life and work down there.

12 He struck me as a person who wasn't difficult to talk to and someone that

13 politicians could negotiate with. But throughout those eight years, every

14 Friday he would give a press conference. At the end of each and every one

15 of these he would say that DSK, his political party was in favour of a

16 neutral and independent Kosovo. I was aware of his attitude throughout

17 those eight years. Every Friday whenever he was in Pristina he would give

18 a press conference and say the same thing, he was in favour of a neutral

19 and independent Kosovo. Now that the war had begun and victims were

20 falling on either side of the conflict, he softened up a bit and my

21 impression now was that he believed there should be negotiations, that the

22 war should stop, and that there should be a chance to talk about these

23 relationships in Kosovo and Metohija. My impression during those days

24 when I was taking him to Belgrade a number of times was that he was

25 prepared to negotiate, unlike some other leaders of Kosovo Albanians who

Page 22073

1 advocated the use of force as the only means to resolving the conflict in

2 Kosovo and Metohija.

3 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, I have a

6 single question that stems from Mr. Hannis's cross-examination. This was

7 never brought up on examination-in-chief. Therefore, there was no need

8 for me to ask the question in my cross-examination. It's about this

9 witness's evidence last Friday. Mr. Hannis asked him about meetings in

10 1998. It was exchange of information between the MUP and the army and the

11 witness claims to have attended a couple of those and then the question

12 came who did you see there and then the witness said General Lazarevic and

13 Pavkovic from the MUP. The meetings were held at the corps command or at

14 the MUP building and the only thing I wish to ask the witness is whether

15 perhaps he can pinpoint the time period in 1998 when he saw General

16 Lazarevic.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment. Just one moment before we -- are

18 you referring to the evidence we heard today on this? You say Friday. We

19 certainly had some evidence today about meetings with Lazarevic and

20 Pavkovic.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was today about

22 1998 and last Friday Mr. Hannis when he first began --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: The one today was about 1999, but are you asking

24 about 1998?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That's right, because last Friday, I

Page 22074

1 am sure my friend Mr. Hannis remembers, this was brought up at the start

2 of his cross-examination.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

4 MR. HANNIS: Well, I remember him answering today about meeting

5 Pavkovic and Lazarevic in 1999, but in 1998 I thought it was just a

6 general VJ-MUP get together, and I don't think I asked about names or

7 heard those names, but I could be wrong.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have a page reference for this, Mr. Bakrac?

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, not right now, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you can hunt and raise the matter at the end

11 of re-examination, and if it causes any difficulty for Mr. Ivetic, he will

12 have a chance to come back on it, but if you find the page reference, we

13 can consider that at the end of his re-examination.

14 Mr. Ivetic.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I think I've found it at page

17 22010, line 3. And the answer was, "Well, as for those that I attended,

18 General Lazarevic and Pavkovic and then from June or July 1998 onwards

19 General Sreten Lukic and one of his staff." So that may be --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. You can ask your question, Mr. Bakrac.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Joksic, just a single question from me about 1998. You heard,

25 didn't you. At what point in time did you see General Lazarevic at these

Page 22075

1 meetings with the MUP?

2 A. As far as I remember, and I don't think I'm wrong, in the first

3 three or four months I did not see General Lazarevic. Perhaps he was away

4 somewhere. Between January and April I didn't see him. It wasn't until

5 May or June that I started seeing General Lazarevic. In Pristina. At

6 meetings.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Joksic.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

11 Q. Good day again, Mr. Joksic, I'll try and be brief. Today

12 Mr. Hannis asked you about other possible interpretations of Mr. Shaun

13 Byrnes' actions and words and you started to answer him and Mr. Hannis did

14 not care for your answer. Could you please continue with what you were

15 going to say about the reasons why for you there was no possibility of

16 interpreting Shaun Byrnes' actions and deeds in any other way?

17 A. Because, well, we were monitoring Mr. Shaun Byrnes' activities.

18 We had a lot of information, a lot of other reports indicating that he was

19 lending his support to members of the KLA and advising them on what to do,

20 when to attack, when not to attack, and so on and so forth. I can't

21 recall any details. There was a flood of incoming reports and our

22 operatives were writing these reports every day and submitting them. I

23 read a lot about that, and I do know that there was quite some information

24 pointing out the links between Shaun Byrnes on the one hand and members of

25 the KLA on the other. When I analysed those reports my impression was

Page 22076

1 that he was some sort of an advisor to them.

2 Q. Thank you, sir. If we could have Exhibit P1811 on the screen.

3 This is a document that Mr. Hannis showed you today. And, sir, you

4 testified that you did recognise most of the people listed in this

5 decision. The question I have for you, sir, is are any of the persons

6 listed herein as members of the MUP staff employees of the State Security

7 Service, the RDB?

8 A. No, not in this document.

9 Q. Thank you, sir. And then the other day you testified during

10 cross-examination that during the bombing you spent a lot of time with

11 General Lukic as the MUP moved around to avoid being killed by NATO. Did

12 you have occasion to see any generals of the RJB who were always with

13 Lukic during this time?

14 A. Well, yes. For the most part it was General Obrad Stevanovic, the

15 assistant minister, and sometimes General Djordjevic would come to

16 Pristina, too, from the RJB.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Joksic. I have no further questions for you.

18 Thank you for your time and your assistance.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, the document on the screen at the

20 moment, that is P1811, is it?

21 MR. IVETIC: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: It says at the bottom of that page in

23 English "Chiefs of secretariats of the interior and of the RDB centres and

24 departments in Kosovo ... are hereby designated members of the staff."

25 MR. IVETIC: That's the same general language from the prior

Page 22077

1 decision but he was --


3 MR. IVETIC: -- talking, I believe about the named individuals who

4 Mr. Hannis asked him about and who I asked if any of those were members of

5 the RDB. On the Serbian those would be the first full page and the first

6 four lines on the second page. I don't have the English in front of me to

7 see. I suspect you're talking about the next set of paragraphs that come

8 after that before the end of the second page in Serbian.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: No. You just need to look at the paragraph

10 immediately after the one you've drawn his --

11 MR. IVETIC: Yes, yes.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: -- attention to.

13 Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Joksic, that completes your evidence. Thank

16 you for coming here to give evidence. You're now free to leave the

17 courtroom with the usher.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, your next witness.

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. It would be Cedo Sakic.

21 JUDGE: Thank you.

22 [The witness entered court]


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Sakic.

Page 22078

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

3 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

4 you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I begin? I solemnly declare that

6 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated. You will now be

8 examined by Mr. Lukic.

9 Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Examination by Mr. Lukic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Sakic.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. Please give us your full name for the record and tell us briefly

15 about your career.

16 A. My name is Cedo Sakic, born on the 20th of January, 1956, in a

17 place called Lipovo Polje, Gospic municipality, the Republic of Croatia.

18 I was admitted in the MUP of the Republic of Serbia on the 15th of

19 December 1977. I worked there until the 1st of July 2000 when I was

20 retired.

21 Q. What jobs did you do in 1999?

22 A. In 1999 I was chief of the escort service in the security organs.

23 Q. I have to start from the beginning. I said -- we'll move right

24 away to the topic of our interest. Let me ask you, did you go to Kosovo

25 and Metohija accompanied by Bozidar Protic, and if you did, how many

Page 22079

1 times?

2 A. In 1999 --

3 Q. When I say how many times, I meant how many times with him when he

4 drove trucks from Kosovo.

5 A. In 1999, I went four times accompanied by Bozidar Protic. He was

6 my -- I was his escort.

7 Q. On whose orders did you go the first time as Protic's escort?

8 A. The first time I provided security for Mr. Bozidar Protic I

9 received the order from my superior officer, the command of the unit for

10 security of republican organs Colonel Mladen Sipovac.

11 Q. It came into the record as I asked you the first time. Did you

12 say the first time or every time?

13 A. Every time.

14 Q. Where did you go the first time?

15 A. Late in April was the first time when I received the order from my

16 commander to provide security to Mr. Protic, and we went to Pristina. In

17 fact, I believe it was some sort of utility enterprise or maybe a

18 marketplace.

19 Q. How did you go, with which vehicle, from Belgrade to Pristina?

20 A. We used two vehicles, Puh, a Mercedes, M601565 and M601564 were

21 the licence plates. Those were issued personally to me. They were the

22 vehicles of my unit.

23 Q. Did you use any other vehicles apart from these?

24 A. On the way there we didn't use any other vehicles, just the ones

25 issued personally to me.

Page 22080

1 Q. Who sat in the same car as you when you went to Pristina for the

2 first time?

3 A. The driver Jovan Pecenica. I was the passenger next to the

4 driver. Mr. Bozidar Protic sat behind me, and next to him was a policeman

5 nicknamed Boske. I don't remember his full name.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, is Puh some reference to a type of

7 vehicle?

8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: So what were the two vehicles?

10 MR. LUKIC: I'll try to clarify with the witness.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Could you explain what a Puh is?

12 A. It's an all-terrain, vehicle, a jeep. On our local market it was

13 called Puh. In the Western markets it was called Mercedes 230 diesel.

14 Q. You mentioned someone named Boske. Was he regularly a part of

15 your group or was he seconded to you occasionally?

16 A. This policeman Boske, he worked in a different section, but he was

17 seconded to me for a long time as assistance, and I can't really remember

18 for how long.

19 Q. Do you remember who was in the other vehicle?

20 A. The driver was Ljubinko Banjac. Next to him sat Dragan Stosic,

21 who was also one of the officers. Then Dragan Jankovic sat behind him.

22 He wasn't from my unit. I know he was from Paracin, and I can't remember

23 his exact name. And the fourth was Vlastimir Lukovic.

24 Q. You said Dragan Jankovic and I can't remember his name. Do you

25 mean to say you were not sure?

Page 22081

1 A. I believe it was Dragan, but I'm not sure. And Dragan Stosic was

2 certainly an officer in the second vehicle.

3 Q. On that occasion did Protic talk to anyone in the car on the way?

4 A. Two, three times as we were travelling Mr. Protic talked to

5 someone on his cell phone. He was just -- he just said the exact location

6 where we were at the time and said nothing further. I didn't know who he

7 was talking to. I asked him why he was discovering our position. I

8 reminded him we were in a state of war, that we were being listened to,

9 but he simply avoided an answer. He didn't say anything.

10 Q. So you arrived in Pristina, and what happens then?

11 A. We took a roundabout way from Devet Jugovica towards Obilic from

12 the juncture, and we entered Pristina near Caglavica, near the petrol

13 station. Since we didn't know the town well, he told us exactly where to

14 go because he knew the exact location. He took us there. We stopped.

15 Mr. Protic and I got out of the car -- can I go on? The security detail

16 there consisted of people in civilian clothes and some in uniform. Mr.

17 Protic greeted those who were in uniform -- or, rather, one of them.

18 However, at that parking lot there were two refrigerator lorries. One of

19 those had the refrigerator working and the other not. The other one was

20 open and empty.

21 Mr. Protic got into the truck because the key was in the ignition,

22 in the refrigerator truck. He explained to me that he needed to create

23 pressure to pump air, so to speak, as he explained to me. He got into the

24 second refrigerator lorry, took the tool box, and put it in the

25 refrigerator lorry he was going to drive. There were some other vehicles

Page 22082

1 on that parking lot, probably impounded in various incidents. From one of

2 the jeeps he took a white spade and put it in his lorry.

3 I noted all that in my notepad and later put it in my report

4 submitted to my commander.

5 Q. On that occasion while you were in Pristina, did Protic from any

6 location whatsoever telephone anyone from a land-line?

7 A. Mr. Protic had had no opportunity and did not speak to anyone from

8 a land-line, and he didn't need to because he had a cell phone.

9 Q. On that occasion while you were in Pristina did he tell you to

10 whom he had spoken while you were travelling?

11 A. As we were going around that truck, he wanted to speak to me

12 one-on-one. When we were behind that refrigerator lorry which had the

13 refrigerator on, he told me he had spoken to General Djordjevic.

14 Q. Who was Protic's superior at the time?

15 A. His superior was General Zekovic, Gojko, whose last name I don't

16 remember, and Mr. Nenadic.

17 Q. At that time was it usual for drivers under Nenadic to have cell

18 phones?

19 A. I know that drivers under Nenadic had been issued with cell phones

20 back in December 1988.

21 Q. You mean to say 1998?

22 A. Sorry, yes, 1998.

23 Q. Do you know what was the call-sign or code number of these cell

24 phones given to this category of drivers?

25 A. Their first numbers, first digits, were 063, because that provider

Page 22083

1 covered all of Serbia, whereas the one beginning with 064 had coverage

2 only next to the motorway.

3 Q. How far did you accompany Protic on your way back from Pristina?

4 A. We accompanied him up to the petrol station near the building of

5 MUP of Serbia -- or, rather, the building of emergency medical service.

6 We left him there and said good-bye, and he hung back.

7 Q. When you say up to the emergency medical service building or the

8 MUP building, you mean in Belgrade?

9 A. Yes, in Belgrade, and prior to that we had stopped in Velika Plana

10 where he told us not to accompany him further on.

11 Q. That was the first time. How long was it before you travelled

12 with Protic again? Where did you go?

13 A. I believe it was the same week, maybe five, six, or seven days

14 later. We also went to Pristina, again on the orders of my superior

15 commander, Mr. Sipovac Mladen, again to Pristina.

16 Q. Did you use the same vehicles?

17 A. The very same vehicles. And it was the same security team.

18 Q. Where did you pick up Protic and how did you arrange where to pick

19 him up?

20 A. The first time we started around 1400 hours. The second time we

21 departed around 1800 hours. On that occasion my commander announced to me

22 that I was again to be the security man for Protic. However, at that time

23 Protic called me from his cell phone to meet up next to the emergency

24 medical service building next to a business called Stek, between the

25 petrol station and the Stek business, that we would meet there, that we

Page 22084

1 should drive up to there and pick him up.

2 Q. Was he again with you in the same car or in the other car?

3 A. He was in my car, sitting behind me.

4 Q. How many other policemen were there?

5 A. In the first vehicle there was Jovan Pecenica, the driver, and

6 Boske sitting behind the driver as the fourth man.

7 Q. What kind of assignment did Protic get this time?

8 A. I asked him where we were going and he said directly to Pristina.

9 But again, on the way he gave someone the location where we were but only

10 from Celija Lake to Pristina. And he guided us again in a roundabout way

11 from the other side of town so that we entered Pristina from Caglavica.

12 He took us to the back of the building of Rilindija newspaper where there

13 was a wire-fenced parking lot. At the very entrance to the parking lot

14 there was a booth with a policeman inside who was guarding the vehicles.

15 Q. You said he communicated your location to someone. Using what

16 equipment?

17 A. His cell phone.

18 Q. You arrived in Pristina to that parking lot near Rilindija that

19 was guarded. On that occasion did Protic, while you were in Pristina,

20 that is, have the possibility of calling someone from a land-line, and did

21 he phone anyone using a land-line in Pristina?

22 A. Mr. Protic had no possibility to call anyone using a land-line,

23 and he did not call anyone. He didn't use a land-line telephone at all.

24 Q. The first time and the second time when you were in Pristina, did

25 he enter any buildings in Pristina and, if so, what buildings?

Page 22085

1 A. Mr. Protic did not enter a single building in Pristina, and he

2 could not go anywhere from us because I was his escort. He couldn't go

3 away from us.

4 Q. Where did he take over the truck then?

5 A. When we arrived in that parking lot, the policeman who was there

6 in the hut got up and lifted the barrier. We drove in. Mr. Protic got

7 out of the vehicle and came to this duty policeman. I don't know what it

8 was he talked about with him, and then he returned into the car that was

9 air-conditioned. He sat in the truck, turned it on. The engine was

10 working for about five minutes. He went around the vehicle and went

11 back. He talked to someone then on the telephone, but I don't know who,

12 and he turned on his lights in this way showing us that we could leave,

13 and that is exactly what we did.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, not air-conditioning

15 but refrigeration.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it the reference now to the refrigerated

17 vehicle is to a lorry and not a car.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Also, you said that he was talking on the telephone.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What kind of telephone was it?

24 A. Mr. Protic used his own cell phone in the truck of -- in this

25 refrigeration truck. Refrigerator truck.

Page 22086

1 Q. Thank you. Do you know who it was that he talked to then?

2 A. No. I couldn't hear because I was outside, and I don't know what

3 it was that he was talking about or who it was that he was talking to.

4 Q. You went back to Belgrade; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In the direction of Belgrade. So where did you leave Protic?

7 A. When returning to Belgrade, 100 kilometres away from Belgrade

8 there is a gasoline station in Velika Plana. We stopped there to refresh

9 ourselves a bit and that's where we stopped and then we continued to

10 Belgrade and Protic told us to accompany him only to the emergency

11 hospital -- rather, the MUP, and then that's what we did, and he went

12 further on to Batajnica.

13 Q. That was the second time?

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I clarify a couple of matters from this?

15 On this second occasion, did you go to Pristina in two motor

16 vehicles again?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: And the same eight people?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And how many refrigerated trucks were there in the

21 car park on this occasion?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On this occasion I pointed out that

23 it was only one refrigerator truck in that parking lot. In the first one

24 there were two. One was open, the back door was open, whereas this one

25 was closed.

Page 22087

1 JUDGE BONOMY: On the first occasion what happened to the other

2 refrigerated truck, the one that Protic did not drive?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what happened.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I'll just try to move on a bit further to clarify the points that

8 Judge Bonomy was interested in.

9 Did this truck stay behind in the parking lot when you left

10 Pristina?

11 A. The second refrigerator truck remained in the parking lot. It was

12 empty. I don't know what happened to it later on.

13 Q. Thank you. When was the third time that you accompanied Protic,

14 and where was it that you went?

15 And I'd like to call up on e-court 6D1494.

16 While we're waiting for the map, can you tell us where it was that

17 you went the third time?

18 A. The third time we went to Kosovska Mitrovica via Pristina.

19 Q. After how many days?

20 A. Well, this was about 20 days perhaps. Say 21 or 19. I cannot say

21 for sure.

22 Q. After what?

23 A. After the second time I accompanied him.

24 Q. What vehicle were you in?

25 A. I was in the vehicles that I'd been issued in the unit. These

Page 22088

1 were Puh jeeps, the ones that I explained about a moment ago.

2 Q. What about Protic? What vehicle did he take?

3 A. Protic drove some kind of a truck. Sort of like a refrigerator

4 truck. I don't know now. It didn't have the thing up there for

5 refrigeration. It didn't have a device for refrigeration. It was just

6 sort of like a big box.

7 Q. Did you enter the truck where Protic was?

8 A. Well, when I went to Kosovo I would go in to see him, and I'd ride

9 with him for about a hundred kilometres roughly. When we got off the

10 highway near Krusevac until we passed the lake of Celija. I was keeping

11 him company because he was bored.

12 Q. Since I need a map, it probably takes more time for it to be

13 uploaded, and I need to ask you questions about that map, but then perhaps

14 I can ask you other questions until the map is there.

15 When you reached Pristina, where did you go and how?

16 A. Five kilometres before Pristina, around five kilometres before

17 Pristina at Devet Jugovica we turned right, and then we went to Milosevo.

18 In Milosevo there is this crossroads leading to Obilic and then going left

19 to Kosovo Polje or the other side of Pristina, that is, and to the right

20 you go to Kosovska Mitrovica.

21 When we got there I didn't know where it was that we would be

22 going after that. Protic was signalling us where to go, to turn right.

23 As we went on, he was just giving us indications that we should move

24 faster, faster, flashing his lights. And we got to Kosovska Mitrovica and

25 then he took us to this railway station, and then there is a timber

Page 22089

1 processing plant close to it. The door was open, so we could see. I

2 mean, we could see these machines, the machines that carpenters use. So

3 that is how I came to the conclusion that that is what it was.

4 Q. Very well. Now we have the map on our screens, so I would kindly

5 ask the usher to help you with the pen, and could you please mark your

6 route on this map, where it was that you were driving as you went from

7 Belgrade to Kosovska Mitrovica.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: The number of this exhibit? 6D1494. Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you. Since the map is in Cyrillic, to the right of various

12 localities could you please use numbers. Number 1, Pristina, please.

13 A. Does this apply to me?

14 Q. Yes. Yes.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Very well. Now Obilic, number 2, please.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Number 3, Kosovska Mitrovica.

19 A. May I explain a bit more?

20 Q. Go ahead.

21 A. There is this one village here and this other village there. This

22 is Donja Brnjica and then Gornja Brnjica up to Pristina, near Pristina.

23 Q. Use number 3 to mark Kosovska Mitrovica. 4 and 5 the villages,

24 and give us the names again as you put the numbers there.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 22090

1 Q. What's the village number for?

2 A. Donja Brnjica. And number 5 is Gornja Brnjica.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. LUKIC: Can we have the IC number for this exhibit, please.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is number 5, Mr. Lukic?

6 MR. LUKIC: It's on the left-hand side from number 1.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: So it's just the big red blob. Okay. You can have

8 a number then.

9 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Now we have number 5.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a big village.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC 185, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Since we've already marked this exhibit, we can no longer draw

15 things on it, but --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you can call it up and you can --

17 MR. LUKIC: Can I call up --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: This one.

19 MR. LUKIC: This one, yes.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: IC185, and then you can draw on it once it's there

21 on the screen in its photographed form.

22 MR. LUKIC: I'd like to call IC185. Okay.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sakic, could you please mark for us here the

24 direction from which you came. Did you come from the direction of

25 Podujevo? Can you just link this up to the blue line? [In English] Too

Page 22091

1 late now. Okay. That's fine. And can I have --

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

4 MR. LUKIC: And could I have the IC number for this exhibit,

5 please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC186, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Sakic, we lawyers sometimes have to put questions that may

10 sound illogical, but I have to ask you this: On the occasion when you

11 went to Kosovska Mitrovica, during your third trip, that is, accompanying

12 Protic in relation to the escort of the truck, did you turn off and go to

13 Pristina?

14 A. No. We never went to Pristina because it wasn't necessary.

15 Q. You've already explained to us that you came to Kosovska

16 Mitrovica, this timber processing plant. And what did Protic do with the

17 truck that he drove?

18 A. Mr. Protic drove his truck to that entranceway. He backed off and

19 parked it in a way that the front of the truck was parallel to the door of

20 this timber processing plant.

21 Q. On that occasion did you see what it was that Protic was loading

22 onto the truck?

23 A. No. I couldn't see because I was on the other side, and on the

24 other side to where I was, there was the railway station and the ramp for

25 loading train cars. Since we were looking from up there, we had no chance

Page 22092

1 to see any of this. And Protic was with us up there later.

2 Q. Did you see Protic making a telephone call from there from a

3 land-line?

4 A. Protic had no chance to make a telephone call from there and talk

5 to anyone because there wasn't a land-line telephone there at all.

6 Q. And what happened then? Was Protic there with you within that

7 area? Where did he go to?

8 A. He came to us. Mr. Protic came to us, and I think there could

9 have been up to ten people there including those who were loading whatever

10 they were loading. The rest were policemen. And we talked about all

11 sorts of things there. Mr. Protic came to us and he was with us, and it

12 was the -- probably of the commander, leader of these men who were there.

13 I don't know. He had the rank of captain, and he happened to be there and

14 he talked to me.

15 Q. And what did you ask this captain?

16 A. I asked him, "What is being loaded there."

17 Q. And what did the captain answer to you?

18 A. The captain said, "We are loading Siptars." And in response to my

19 question "What do you mean Siptars, who killed them," because that was

20 quite foreign to me. And he said, "Their guys did it." I said, "What do

21 you mean their guys," and he said to me "NATO aircraft." That was his

22 answer to me.

23 Q. Where did you go with that truck?

24 A. When the loading was over these people in civilian clothes called

25 and said that it was all over. Protic went down and turned on his truck

Page 22093

1 and flashed a light at us, and then we went towards Pristina and then from

2 that crossroads to Podujevo and then further on to Belgrade.

3 Q. On that occasion did you enter Pristina on your way back?

4 A. No. There was no need for us to enter Pristina.

5 Q. After that, did you go to Kosovo and Metohija yet again escorting

6 Protic?

7 A. Well, towards the end of the NATO bombing. I can't remember the

8 exact date. I was again called up by my superior to escort Protic, and

9 then we went to Janjevo. That is --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, I think we could deal with that after

11 the break.

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Mr. Sakic, we have to break now for lunch. That will be for an

15 hour. Could you please leave the courtroom with the usher and we will see

16 you again at quarter to 2.00.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.46 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

20 [The witness takes the stand]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Can we continue?

24 A. Certainly.

25 Q. The last thing we discussed was your trip to Janjevo. How did you

Page 22094

1 get there and how did Protic get there? To Kosovo and Metohija, I mean.

2 What sort of vehicles?

3 A. This time around we drove in our own vehicles, and Mr. Protic

4 drove in a Tatra owned by the Gemaks company.

5 Q. Did you actually go into Protic's Tatra vehicle on that occasion?

6 A. Yes, both on the way there and on the way back.

7 Q. Were the same people escorting him?

8 A. Yes. Same vehicles, same people.

9 Q. Did anything happen on your way to Kosovo and Metohija?

10 A. On our way to Kosovo and Metohija, we stopped in a place called

11 Blace, which is where the house is where Mr. Protic was born. We had

12 coffee there. He pulled a jerrycan with oil, fuel out of the vehicle and

13 left it in his own garden.

14 Q. As he pressed on was there any firing along the way?

15 A. Near a place called Janjevo we came under fire from everywhere.

16 We took a right turn towards the turn-off for Obilic and Mitrovica. There

17 is a storage facility, a warehouse where commodity reserves of the

18 Republic of Serbia. We stopped there to see if anyone had been injured.

19 And we were joined here by a politician named Momo Trajkovic who also came

20 under fire.

21 Q. You said that the firing took place in the village of Janjevo?

22 A. Outside the village of Janjevo.

23 Q. And what happened at Devet Jugovica, Devet Jugovica.

24 A. Yeah, right, I'm sorry, it was Devet Jugovica.

25 Q. Can we please have 6D1494 brought back up in e-court. Thank you.

Page 22095

1 Not everything was recorded that we were saying a minute ago. Did the

2 fire occur in the village of Janjevo or the village of Devet Jugovica?

3 A. Outside the village of Devet Jugovica.

4 Q. On the road to Janjevo?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. We'll probably be spending some time waiting for the map to show

7 up on our screens. In the meantime let me ask you this -- the map's

8 there. Can you please show us where exactly you were moving. Can you

9 please mark your movements on this map.

10 A. It was like this. We went from Podujevo as far as Devet Jugovica,

11 then as far as the crossroads, and then towards Kosovo Polje. That's the

12 route that we took.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: At the end of that -- at the end of that route is

15 that Janjevo?

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Can you put a number 1 next to Janjevo, please.

18 A. [Marks].

19 JUDGE BONOMY: It seems a long way from Devet Jugovica.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if I could do anything to move

21 it closer, I would. It's about 20 kilometres from Pristina.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: The reason I ask is you said that you came under

23 fire near place called Janjevo, but it would appear it was more than 20

24 kilometres from Janjevo.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. Not in Janjevo. That's

Page 22096

1 not where the firing occurred. It was in Devet Jugovica, which is round

2 about here.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Put a number 2 there please at Devet Jugovica.

5 A. May I add something?

6 Q. Please explain whatever you like.

7 A. We had a shortcut to take here through Pristina, but --

8 Q. Don't draw anything, please.

9 A. However, there is a village here called Vranjevac and every time

10 we went there we would drive around it because sometimes the Siptars

11 brought children to the road there in order to stop us moving and then

12 they would start sniping at us. So this was something that we had to

13 avoid every time we drove there.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a second. We'll ask CLSS to translate the

15 passage from 81, 2 to line 16.

16 Now, what's the significance of Vranjevac?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vranjevac was significant because

18 this was a densely populated area.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what's it got to do with this particular

20 journey? We're looking at one event at the moment which is your fourth

21 trip. Now, where did -- what happened at Vranjevac?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing happened. I'm mentioning

23 this as a place we had to avoid and drive around it as opposed to right

24 through it.


Page 22097

1 Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Protic -- Sakic. I'm sorry. Do you know about this period, I

4 mean throughout 1999, was there a very important stronghold of the KLA in

5 Vranjevo [as interpreted]?

6 A. Yes, yes, that precisely being the reason why we took the long way

7 around it.

8 Q. All right. Now we see you arriving in Janjevo? What do you find

9 when you get there? What's going on?

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Stop for a moment. If you look at the question,

11 Mr. Lukic, it says was there a very important stronghold of the KLA in --

12 oh, no it's now changed. It was Janjevo. But -- you gave a name that I

13 think even I could hear ended in "jevo." Now, which place were you

14 referring to?

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Vranjevac.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you for your help.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Protic --

19 A. Sakic.

20 Q. Sakic, my apologies, really. We see you arriving in Janjevo?

21 A. Indeed.

22 Q. What's going on there?

23 A. Right in the middle of Janjevo there was a police patrol waiting

24 for us. They took charge of Mr. Protic and then he was gone for half an

25 hour. There is a forest nearby, and I had no idea where he was off to

Page 22098

1 from there, but during this trip he -- this was the only time he was away

2 from me and not under my control.

3 Q. All right. When Protic returned, was he also under the escort of

4 that patrol that took charge of him?

5 A. Yes, because he was coming from down the slope upwards, and

6 there's a bit of a slope there and we were at the top of that slope.

7 That's where we were standing. So first we saw a police vehicle arrive

8 followed by the Tatra lorry which beamed its lights on us to give us a

9 signal. So we got into our vehicle and drove on to Podujevo.

10 Q. So you were driving back the same way now.

11 A. Yes, we are.

12 Q. What about Protic? Did he stop anywhere this time around?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did Protic tell you where you were going to, and where did he tell

15 you that if he did?

16 A. We didn't know this road that we were taking at all. Protic told

17 me near Aleksinac when we got into his vehicle that we were on our way to

18 Petrovo Selo because we were taking a different road, Prokuplje, Nis, and

19 then the toll booth where he started complaining that he was to tired to

20 keep on driving. It was 10.00 p.m. already, and so on and so forth.

21 After about 20 kilometres I switched to his truck. I had a lunch

22 box with me. I gave him something to eat and then we continued on to

23 Paracin where we took a right turn and about 20 or 30 kilometres from

24 there we stopped at a petrol station. We refreshed ourselves and pressed

25 on for Petrovo Selo.

Page 22099

1 Q. Did you write any reports in relation to these trips?

2 A. Whatever I did that I did outside Belgrade, I was under an

3 obligation to write a report which I would then submit to my unit

4 commander in Sipovac. Had I had failed to do that, I would have been

5 punished.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. LUKIC: I just wanted to mention regarding the transcript,

8 everything is recorded as a question, but from "whatever I did" is

9 actually the answer of the witness.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know whether Protic knew where he was

13 going already while he was in Belgrade; if so, how do you know that?

14 A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question.

15 Q. Every time you went with him, every time you escorted him these

16 four times that you went, did you have the impression that even back in

17 Belgrade, Protic knew where he was going?

18 A. Yes. Every time I took this trip with him he had received

19 instructions in Belgrade as to where we would be going and what we would

20 have to do.

21 Q. How do you know that?

22 A. I know that because he would tell us, We're off to Pristina and

23 then as soon as we reached Devet Jugovica he would warn us by beaming his

24 headlights at us, using long beams that something was going on and then he

25 would point us in our next direction.

Page 22100

1 Q. During these trips did Protic ever drop the name of Sreten Lukic

2 in any way?

3 A. I am absolutely positive that he never ever mentioned General

4 Sreten Lukic's name.

5 Q. Thank you. During these trips could Protic go anywhere without

6 being escorted by the police?

7 A. No, he couldn't. Mr. Protic never strayed from me at all except

8 for the fourth trip in Janjevo where another police force, a local police

9 force took charge of him and went with him to those hills.

10 Q. Thank you. While you travelled together did you go to Protic to

11 the Pristina SUP or the Pristina MUP staff?

12 A. The Pristina staff, the staff that was in Pristina, kept changing

13 its location. We didn't even know where it was at the time. So we never

14 went there simply because we didn't need to. Mr. Protic would receive all

15 of his assignments in Belgrade and he knew exactly where we were going.

16 Q. Thank you. Did Protic phone you in 2006?

17 A. I met Mr. Protic in 2005. We spoke on the phone in 2006 and twice

18 in 2007 I was with him. In 2005, on the way out of my flat at Nikolaj

19 Gogolj 38A, I found him standing next to a removal van that he owned with

20 another two men. I approached him and said, "Proto, is that you," and he

21 didn't say anything but he started saying things immediately against

22 General Lukic and he started attacking General Lukic verbally. He said

23 the following words: "I will testify against Lukic because he did not

24 award me a flat whereas he had awarded one to the driver Basanovic." He

25 said, "I will testify in favour of Haradinaj, I will testify in favour of

Page 22101

1 Thaci," and then I asked him, "Okay, so how come nobody's asking me

2 anything, they're just talking to you." And then he told me. I was

3 summoned by The Hague Tribunal, and they told me just show up and we'll

4 give you a thousand dollars for that. I said in relation to you that the

5 whole thing stank to high heavens and that you had run off with your team.

6 I'm under oath. I have to tell the truth.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Lukic, please.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And now tell us about yourself. After talking to him, were you

10 summoned by the MUP to testify?

11 A. On the 21st of April at 9.00 a.m., I was in Vladimirovac, I own a

12 house there, just past Pancevo.

13 Q. Can you tell us the year, please, if you remember?

14 A. 2006. My phone at home rang. I returned, picked up the

15 receiver. I heard a voice saying, "It's Proto speaking." And I said,

16 "Say it." Proto. I thought -- since I had another friend with the

17 surname of Protic, I thought it was the other one. And then hearing what

18 he asked, it was -- I knew it was Bozidar Protic. He asked me, "Cedo, did

19 you get a summons to the court? All the drivers received summons to the

20 court regarding the refrigerator trucks. They know everything. There's

21 no reason to hide anything." I answered, "I didn't get anything and

22 nobody told me anything about anything, but I know one thing, an honest

23 man need not worry. Just tell the truth." And that's what I said to him.

24 Q. Did you warn him there was a written report?

25 A. Yes, and I added in addition regarding every of my trips there is

Page 22102

1 a detailed written report at the MUP of Serbia that I submitted after each

2 trip on which I served as escort.

3 Q. Were you invited to testify?

4 A. I'm not sure about the date, but I believe it was the 28th of

5 September around 8.00 a.m. My cell phone rang and somebody from the

6 administration for war crimes called me. I don't remember the name,

7 although he told me his name.

8 Q. What was the year?

9 A. 2006. So it was in 2006. When I answered the phone the voice

10 said their name, "I'm from the administration for war crimes. We need

11 your statement. Can you come here and talk to us?" I gave them my

12 address and half an hour later somebody came to fetch me. They drove me

13 to Makis, and there I gave a detailed statement covering everything I

14 could remember at that time. I asked them to give me a copy. They

15 wouldn't because they told me it's an official secret. You don't need it

16 anyway, and we can't give it to you. But the person who was interviewing

17 me was referring me to the statement of Mr. Protic who had given his

18 statement earlier and he was kind of leading me to -- to repeat the same

19 things and I answered no, I won't do that. In that case it won't be my

20 statement.

21 Q. Did they question you again on the same subject, on the same case?

22 A. Yes. They summoned me again. In fact another three or four times

23 regarding a case of brother Betici that I knew nothing about. Betici

24 brothers.

25 Q. Do you remember when was the second time you gave a statement?

Page 22103

1 A. No, I can't, I'm sorry.

2 Q. Regarding that questioning, were you polygraphed?

3 A. Yes. I consented to it on my own accord, and since I successfully

4 passed the polygraph test they didn't invite me any more.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Which -- which -- this is on the second -- the

6 second occasion, Mr. Lukic, is it?

7 MR. LUKIC: After the second occasion, I think. The witness can

8 clarify.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not clear at the moment.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Sakic, when were you polygraphed, after the first statement

12 you gave or after the second one?

13 A. After the second statement they asked me would I accept

14 voluntarily to undergo the polygraph test. I agreed. I went through it,

15 and after that they didn't call me again.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I don't understand what the polygraph test is

17 in that context if it's done after the statement's been taken. A lot of

18 this, I don't understand at the moment, Mr. Lukic, and it's only right you

19 should know that. Starting, first of all, with the name of the person

20 that the witness said got a flat but Protic didn't. Who was the person

21 you said Protic was complaining about getting rewarded with a flat?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Driver Basanovic.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment. Sorry.

24 MR. LUKIC: I have one intervention regarding the translation.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, what is that?

Page 22104

1 MR. LUKIC: The translation is that he was rewarded with the flat.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Is that not what --

3 MR. LUKIC: And he is not awarded.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Reward, it's awarded yeah.

5 MR. LUKIC: The flat was allocated to him. I think that's what

6 the witness said, but you can clarify with him if you want.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think it really changes the meaning.

8 You were then asked after talking to him were you summoned by the

9 MUP to testify, and then you told us about a call that you got from Protic

10 on the 21st of April. Now, did the MUP summon you to testify?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The MUP summoned me, but only

12 in October and September and October.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: I may have misunderstood what you have been telling

14 us recently then, because I thought that this -- these four -- or these

15 various interviews you had were with the -- let me see. The

16 administration for war crimes. Are you saying that's part of the MUP?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I think it's called department

18 for war crimes or administration. I'm not sure. And it's at the location

19 called Makis.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And on the three later occasions when you were

21 summoned there, were you asked only about the brothers Betici?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At first I gave a statement

23 regarding the transports I had done earlier, and then they asked me about

24 the Betici brothers, thinking that I had provided escort from Prokuplje to

25 Petrovo Selo village. In essence they were looking to learn anything

Page 22105

1 whatsoever about that case.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you then saying that on each of the four

3 occasions you were actually asked questions about Protic?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: On how many occasions were you asked about Protic?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first two questions. The first

7 two meetings. I was giving a statement regarding the escort services I

8 provided on trips.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, do we have the reports that this witness

10 compiled for the MUP following his activities out with Belgrade?

11 MR. LUKIC: No, we don't.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Do we have the statement that he is

13 said to have given to the department for war crimes?

14 MR. LUKIC: Actually -- just one second. Actually, the Prosecutor

15 gave us his statement he gave on the 25th of September, 2006.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: So that's -- that's the first one given to this

17 department of war crimes, is it?

18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I assume so. All --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thanks.

20 MR. LUKIC: We asked the Prosecutor to give us all the statements

21 of our witnesses given to any organ they have in their possession, and we

22 received this one only today.

23 MR. STAMP: And just for the record, we got this one only this

24 morning.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Everybody's working overtime for you, Mr. Lukic.

Page 22106

1 There you have it. You can now continue with your examination.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 For the record I just need to have this IC number so we don't keep

4 this map on the screen any more.


6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC187, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: May I continue, Your Honour?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Protic -- Sakic. Sorry. Sakic. I've been

12 obsessing about Protic for a while now.

13 Anyway, Mr. Sakic, when you were undergoing the polygraph test

14 after you consented to it, how much time passed before that test and your

15 second statement?

16 A. It was on the same day. I never left in fact. They just put me

17 in a car, took me to the MUP location where there was a polygraph.

18 Q. When you were answering questions at the polygraph, were you asked

19 about these trips regarding which you gave those first two statements?

20 A. Yes, and they told me the result of the test was positive. I know

21 nothing further because I don't know about these things.

22 Q. Thank you. And now I would like to ask you if you had ever seen

23 Protic at his own apartment and, if so, when.

24 A. I visited his home in 2007, on the 1st of February, 2007, and 15

25 February 2007. On the 1st of February, we talked and he sought to elicit

Page 22107

1 some remarks from me, to provoke me. He said, "I am with friends. Come

2 for a drink. Bring coffee, bring drink," et cetera, et cetera. I

3 couldn't accept. My wife was waiting. I went to see him on the 15th of

4 February, and as he asked me back then, I brought the things he asked when

5 I came to visit him at his apartment, and he told me he was travelling to

6 The Hague on the 20th and he was scheduled to testify on the 24th.

7 Q. Did he tell you about any privileges or benefits he had sought

8 from the state authorities in order to testify?

9 A. Yes. He told me that through the chief of -- and I may get the

10 name wrong again -- administration or department for war crimes, he

11 received and warrant allowing him a licence to carry a weapon. He managed

12 to have his son employed as an inspector in Stari Grad municipality, that

13 he also managed to find his daughter a job through the same person at the

14 Assembly of Serbia, and the same chief actually found a job for his

15 daughter that was much better paid, 12.000 dinars better paid, and the

16 same chief also promised to help him repurchase the apartment he was

17 living in, 80 square metres -- 82 square metres, at a price of 600 euro

18 per square metre. And he even offered to take me to the same chief to get

19 whatever help I need if I needed anything.

20 Q. Since the Trial Chamber is not aware and doesn't have to be aware

21 whether 600 euro per square metre is the normal price --

22 A. It's many times less than the normal price.

23 Q. Did Protic mention Sreten Lukic on these occasions?

24 A. Yes, he mentioned him to me. He told me, "You have no one to

25 defend there. They didn't give you anything. There's no one you need to

Page 22108

1 testify for." And regarding Sreten, he told me, my -- "My five minutes

2 have come. I'll bury him 50 metres below the ground." And then he showed

3 me five or six statements he had, and he told me that one of them was

4 given to an investigator of the FBI. He also showed me a calling card of

5 an investigator by the name of Philip, and he had asked that Philip to

6 intervene with minister Rasim Ljajic to have him call up the minister of

7 the interior Jocic to enable him to repurchase this apartment he was

8 living in at a price of 600 euro per square metre.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: When was this said?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 15th February 2007. 2300 hours.

11 And his neighbour was at his home at the time.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And when was it the chief of the war crimes

13 administration had promised him the opportunity to --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- I don't know. I can't say that

15 because I don't know. That's what he said to me. And he told me --

16 sorry. He told me he was unable to repurchase his apartment, but instead,

17 since his wife was employed with the SUP, it will be dealt with through

18 her.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, the chief you've told us had promised to

20 help him to buy his apartment at a knock-down price. Now, when was that

21 promise made?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. He just passed it on

23 to me. He told me that that evening, on the 15th of February. I don't

24 know when the conversation between the two of them took place.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: And when did he tell you he was unable to

Page 22109

1 repurchase his apartment?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Protic?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. You said he told you he was unable to

4 repurchase his apartment but it would be dealt with through his wife's

5 employment with the SUP. When did he tell you that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That same evening, because

7 Mr. Protic had received one apartment from the MUP of the Republic of

8 Serbia located in Batajnica, and he moved his son into that apartment, and

9 he wanted another apart the for himself, his wife, and his daughter. He

10 explained all that to me and we discussed it all.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Please just concentrate on what I'm asking you.

12 And you told us that someone called Philip had been asked to do something

13 to help him as well. When -- when did he tell you about that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me all that on the 15th of

15 February, 2007 from 19 until 2300 hours. And he showed me the calling

16 card of that person, but I don't know his full name because I didn't

17 remember it.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: At the end of the day what did you think had

19 actually happened with the flat? Did you have a clear understanding in

20 your head?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My conclusion was that it was

22 impossible to put into practice this wish he had. He had already received

23 one apartment. He was still married to his wife, and there was no basis

24 in law for him to get another apartment.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Where was the apartment that he was to be able to

Page 22110

1 buy at -- at a cheap price?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a neighbourhood called Cukaricka

3 Padina.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: So that's not the apartment in Batajnica.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Did he -- thank you.

7 Mr. Lukic --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The flat in Batajnica was

9 repurchased by him.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, it was repurchased. That's an expression

11 that I don't really understand, "repurchased." Had somebody taken it from

12 him?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means to privatise. At that

14 time, an evaluation was made of that apartment that was already in use.

15 The evaluation was made by the MUP, and he had to pay the amount in order

16 to privatise it. Instead of MUP property, it would become his property,

17 his private property.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: And had he actually paid the money for the one in

19 Batajnica?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Where was it you actually visited him on the 15th

22 of February?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At his flat which was also MUP

24 property and into which he had moved with no legal basis or entitlement,

25 and this flat was at Cukaricka Padina.

Page 22111

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Please continue.

4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Protic --

6 A. Sakic.

7 Q. Oh, yes. Sakic. Mr. Sakic. There is a whole area of civil law

8 dedicated to this sort of thing in former socialist countries. I think

9 only Judge Kamenova can at this point in time understand what we're

10 talking about. We are talking about socially owned flats or how these are

11 privatised or purchased below market value by the prospective owners.

12 Let's not dwell on this any longer, but let's get one thing straight.

13 Once a flat like this is --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, that would be very easy to understand

15 and is very easy to understand. It's the use of letter "re," and that

16 suggests you've owned the property before. It's been taken from you and

17 you repurchase it.

18 MR. LUKIC: I know. In the West it means when you repurchase

19 something, but actually in this case the apartments were before owned by

20 the state and later on by companies, and their price is deducted because

21 of long-term usage and you would repurchase actually those apartments from

22 your company for the 10th of the price. To it's worth then 70.000 euros

23 you would buy it for 7.000 or, I don't know, maybe sometimes 10.000 but

24 it's much smaller price, and that's exactly what Protic tried to do with

25 the second apartment as well. That's what we are trying to explain here.

Page 22112

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, indeed, but it's not a difficult concept.

2 It's been a plank of a political party in the United Kingdom to be able to

3 sell to people who rent properties these same properties but at a very

4 substantially reduced price. It's a common concept. So it's just the use

5 of the language. It's not the concept itself that's the problem.

6 MR. LUKIC: And I don't know if the translators can translate this

7 word at all, because it's not selling, buying, but it's really something

8 else. The term is "otkup," and the term for buying is "kupovina."

9 JUDGE BONOMY: But if you either "otkup" or "kupovina," either

10 way, do you become the owner of the property?

11 MR. LUKIC: You use "kupovina" when you buy on the regular market

12 price.


14 MR. LUKIC: When you buy by "otkup," you became the owner again

15 but just for the much lower price.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: But the end result is the same; you're the owner

17 again.

18 MR. LUKIC: You're the owner, yes.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please continue.

20 MR. LUKIC: And you can buy only one apartment through "otkup."

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sakic, do you know that Protic tried to avoid

22 testifying in The Hague?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the reason for that? Could it be that his demands for

25 testifying had not been met?

Page 22113

1 A. Yes, I do know --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Please don't answer that question. That's the sort

3 of leading question that completely devalues the answer, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: I'll ask completely different --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: No, don't bother. You really have lost the way on

6 that one, I'm afraid.

7 MR. LUKIC: Okay. But I think we have enough.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Protic.

9 A. Sakic.

10 Q. Sakic. These were my questions. I think you will probably

11 forgive me for not addressing you properly, and thank you for testifying.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic -- sorry. Of Mr. Cepic, do you have --

14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] There must be some difference between

15 the two of us, Your Honour.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Again, Mr. Cedo Sakic, my name is Djuro Cepic.

18 A. Pleased to meet you.

19 Q. I am speaking on behalf the General Lazarevic. I have several

20 questions, maybe a single one. We're about to find out. Today at page

21 78, 78 of today's transcript, to be more specific, you mentioned the

22 situation in Kosovska Mitrovica when this person called Protic that was

23 mentioned so many times was there. There was something you didn't see at

24 the time but that you discussed later with a commander who was a captain

25 by rank.

Page 22114

1 Mr. Sakic, am I right if I say that there was not a single member

2 of the VJ thereabouts and that the captain was a MUP captain and not a VJ

3 captain?

4 A. Yes, you're entirely right.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Mr. Sakic, you will now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor

9 Mr. Stamp.

10 Mr. Stamp.

11 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

13 Q. In 2007, where did you live?

14 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I live in Belgrade. That's where my address is,

15 but I have another house in a place called Vladimirovac, which is a

16 distance of some 45 kilometres from Belgrade. My address in Belgrade is

17 Nikolaj Gogolj Street 38A at Banovo Brdo.

18 Q. How far is that from Cukaricka Padina?

19 A. From my flat to Protic's flat at Cukaricka Padina the distance

20 must be between 250 and 300 metres.

21 Q. Now, did you see -- or let me ask you this. How did you come to

22 be in his flat on the 1st of February, 2007?

23 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I leave my flat, I go down a flight of stairs, the

24 only one there, on the way to Ada Ciganlija, which is a popular promenade

25 in Belgrade. There's a track there. It's eight kilometres long, and

Page 22115

1 that's normally where I took my constitutionals with my wife, and I met

2 him outside the flat. There was a blue van that he owned. He used to own

3 a TAM truck. That was before. And then he changed it and now he got

4 himself a new van.

5 Q. So on the 1st of February you did not go into his flat. I thought

6 you said you were at his flat on the 1st of February.

7 A. I was. I was in his flat then as well.

8 Q. How did you come to be in his flat? Were you --

9 A. But --

10 Q. -- invited there or did you --

11 A. Yes. He had invited me to his flat, Protic did, because I was

12 passing by and we bumped into each other. He was standing outside his

13 flat because I was passing his flat on my way there, as I explained.

14 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. You said that while you were in his flat, he

15 tried to provoke you. How did he try to provoke you?

16 A. He tried to foist a story on me, his own version of these events

17 and I said, "Proto, listen, it's not your place, it's not my place to do

18 this. There are reports to this effect in the possession of the MUP of

19 Serbia. Every escort has its own reports and that is the only yardstick

20 that one can use."

21 Q. Now, you're back in his flat on the night of 15th of February.

22 Under what circumstances? How did you get to return to his flat on the

23 15th of February?

24 A. Well, he invited me, as friends do. He told me to grab a bottle

25 of something to drink, some fruit juice, a bar of chocolate. You know, as

Page 22116

1 friends do.

2 Q. So I take it from your evidence that you -- after you drove with

3 him in 1999, you saw him in 2005, and he called in 2006, and you visited

4 his home in 2007, the 1st the February and the 15th of February. Are you

5 telling us that Protic is your friend?

6 A. No. An acquaintance, yes.

7 Q. So you're telling us that you were invited to and you attended at

8 the house of this acquaintance who was trying to provoke you for three

9 hours at least on the 15th of February, in the night of the 15th of

10 February.

11 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I've known Mr. Protic for 15 years. We didn't

12 socialise, and we did socialise, depending on the time. Sometimes we came

13 across each other in the MUP building, so several times we had lunch

14 together and so on and so forth.

15 Q. You said that you saw him in 2005. Where did you see him in 2005?

16 A. 2005. Sometime around October I saw him at Nikolaj Gogolj street

17 38A outside my own flat.

18 Q. Now, you said that he told you that -- Basanovic got recorded.

19 That I don't think is what the transcript said. Is that Basanovic or

20 Brasanovic?

21 A. Basanovic.

22 Q. Do you know his full name?

23 A. No. I don't remember.

24 Q. What work did he do?

25 A. He was another driver in the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.

Page 22117

1 Q. Who, if anybody, did Protic say rewarded that driver?

2 MR. LUKIC: I objected to that term "rewarded," because that was

3 completely wrong translation. So it may be that the witness does not

4 understand the question. It was allocated, not rewarded.

5 MR. STAMP: I think when answering questions to my friend he used

6 the expression reward -- or the translation was rewarded.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, that was the subject of contention at that

8 time, Mr. Stamp. I think the best plan is to ask the witness, first of

9 all, what it is he contends was the complaint that Protic was making about

10 the obtaining of a flat.


12 Q. What -- yes. What was the complaint Protic was making in respect

13 to the obtaining of a flat by Basanovic?

14 A. Allegedly Basanovic had got two flats. One, as I said earlier on,

15 he had purchased or had privatised, and then Mr. Lukic later on awarded

16 him this other flat. So he ended up with two. I don't know what the

17 truth is. I'm just telling you what he told me at the time.

18 Q. I see. And did you ever become aware that Basanovic was also said

19 to be involved in transporting bodies from Kosovo to Serbia?

20 A. Mr. Prosecutor, this is not something that I'm aware of.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 A. What I know I'm happy to share to you. He certainly never talked

23 to me about that. I wasn't providing his escort at the time. Therefore,

24 I don't know.

25 Q. Well, while we're on that subject, was Protic the only person

Page 22118

1 during the NATO intervention that you escorted from Kosovo to Serbia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did Protic or anyone else not tell you that other MUP drivers were

4 involved in transporting bodies, including Dragan Basanovic and Bogdan

5 Lipovac?

6 A. He didn't share that with me. Therefore, I'm unaware of it.

7 Q. Now, sir, didn't you visit Mr. Protic at his flat in March after

8 he testified here?

9 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. On the 15th of February, that's when it was,

10 and he was supposed to travel on the 20th and appear on court on the

11 24th. And that's when he showed me some statements that he made to our

12 own prosecutor, to the MUP, and so on and so forth, to Karleusa, the

13 captain, that sort of thing. Let me add this, if I may: He gave me this

14 to read and then they're all different.

15 Q. Did you discuss his testimony with him after he testified in any

16 form, whether by telephone or -- or personally or face-to-face?

17 A. I'm sorry. Testifying --

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. -- what do you mean? After his evidence here, is that what you

20 mean? No, I most certainly did not talk to him. The reason being, I

21 think his only objective in testifying here was to obtain some form of

22 material gain. Therefore, I refused to talk to him about the matter

23 again.

24 Q. But -- but Mr. Sakic, you told us he tried to provoke you with his

25 story on the 1st of February, but you still turn up to his apartment at

Page 22119

1 night for three hours on the 15th of February. So the reason you're

2 giving us for not speaking to him after his testimony couldn't be a valid

3 one.

4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, he's that sort of a person. He wants to get a

5 rise out of anyone. He wants to prove that he is in charge, that he is

6 the boss. And here you had a situation where he was trying to annihilate

7 me in the sense of suggesting that it wasn't me who had gone places. It

8 was all about him. That's what he was trying to make me believe, that he

9 was doing everything on his own.

10 Q. I see.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: You said to us earlier that he had asked you

12 when -- when he phoned you whether you got a summons to the court, and he

13 said to you, "All the drivers received summons to the court regarding the

14 refrigerator trucks. They know everything."

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: You weren't interested in who all these drivers

17 were?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. You know why? Because he was

19 the only one I was working with. I wasn't working with anybody else. I

20 don't know what everybody else was doing. I was just interested in him

21 and the case that we worked together.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: And you -- you didn't think at that time that he

23 was perhaps giving information that might cause trouble for you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I know I am clean. I

25 know he has nothing on me and can't possibly pin anything on me. I myself

Page 22120

1 would have a couple of things to share, after all.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.


4 Q. Can you just explain to us how is it you're saying that Mr. Protic

5 tried to annihilate you by suggesting that it wasn't you who had gone

6 places? What is it that Mr. Protic said or did?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, he told me in 2005, April 2005, outside my flat

8 that he had told the prosecutor, the war crimes prosecutor, The Hague one

9 in Belgrade, that I had run off with my group, that this stank to high

10 heaven and that I'd run off with my group, which was simply not true.

11 Q. Where did he say you would have run off from? I'm afraid I'm not

12 following your answer.

13 A. It was outside my flat in 2005. He was standing right there. He

14 was in the middle of moving someone's flat. I talked to him and

15 immediately he started attacking Mr. Lukic verbally, and then I asked him,

16 "How come everybody's calling you? Nobody's calling me." And he told me

17 this to the letter. I said this was something that stunk to high heaven

18 and you had run off with your group and then he went on to tell me, "If

19 you had been willing to work with me nobody would ever have called you for

20 anything at all."

21 Q. Stop there for a minute. What did he say stank to high heaven?

22 What was he referring to?

23 A. He was probably talking about the cargo that was transporting.

24 Q. And when he said that you had run off with your group, what was

25 he -- what did he mean by that?

Page 22121

1 A. The escort group and both vehicles. That's what he wanted to say,

2 that we'd run off and abandoned our job and simply fled.

3 Q. And you're saying that you thought this would annihilate you.

4 A. That's right.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sakic, we're -- we've been delicately going

6 round this -- this matter for some time now. Did you know there were

7 bodies in these vehicles?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I knew about the bodies

9 from Mitrovica because the captain who was there had told me that there

10 were bodies there, and I knew about the last round in Petrovo Selo when

11 they'd been unloaded. Then Protic approached me at breakfast to tell me

12 there were 17 bodies there.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: And what did you think was involved in the other

14 two journeys?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the other two journeys, we

16 had our suspicions about things like those, but I personally wrote the

17 report to the unit commander and I mentioned our suspicions. But I hadn't

18 seen anything.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: But then you did know on the second two -- on the

20 last two occasions that there were bodies. Did your reports record that,

21 that the bodies were being moved around the country?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my assignment was to

23 provide escort, which was what I did once --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Just answer my question. Did your report say

25 that -- that there were bodies being driven around the country?

Page 22122

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I arrived in

2 Belgrade, I produced a detailed report as to what I had seen and what I

3 had heard. I stated that I had heard from the captain who was providing

4 security there that there were bodies there. As to the last report, I

5 state clearly there that I'd heard from Mr. Protic that there were 17

6 bodies involved. I produced that report. I signed it off, and I handed

7 it over to my superior officer to deal with it.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Remind me who that superior officer was.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Mladen Sipovac, commander of

10 the unit providing security for republican bodies.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: So you say on two occasions clear information given

12 to your superiors that you had a suspicion that bodies were being moved

13 around the country in refrigerated vehicles.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Stamp.


17 Q. Yes. And just to make that clear, on the two occasions when you

18 made written reports about the suspicions, these were in relation to your

19 first and second trips.

20 A. The third and fourth trips. That's what I meant about hearing.

21 As for the first and second one, I didn't say, because --

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... There are two things here,

23 and His Lordship asked you clear questions the last time about

24 suspicions. You said --

25 A. Yes.

Page 22123

1 Q. -- in respect to two of the trips that you were told by a captain

2 that there were bodies, and in the last one in respect to Petrovo Selo,

3 you were told by Protic that there were 17 bodies, and you reported that.

4 Didn't you also say --

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. -- in respect to the suspicions that you had in respect to the

7 other trips, you also reported those suspicions?

8 A. Mr. Prosecutor --

9 Q. Did you say that?

10 A. Okay. I understand. Just a moment, please. Yes, okay. What I

11 said in the report was what I wrote, but verbally I informed the commander

12 of the unit that some stench was felt and that the suspicion was that

13 these were corpses.

14 Q. And this is in respect to which trip?

15 A. The first and second.

16 Q. No. The first and second trips were with refrigerator trucks.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. According to you, Protic just arrived, examined them, and drove

19 them off.

20 A. [No interpretation].

21 Q. And you're saying that those two trucks smelled. Just yes or no.

22 You're saying that the trucks stank.

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And they stank of dead bodies. That's what you thought the smell

25 was.

Page 22124

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, you said --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Just -- I've maybe caused confusion rather than

4 helped, but I would like to know to whom that information was reported,

5 because there seems to be a recognition of an obligation, and we, I think,

6 should know who is the superior in the chain. Where are --

7 MR. STAMP: Should I follow on that or should --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Because of the confusion I've already caused, I

9 thought it best to leave it to you, Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP: All right.

11 Q. You reported it to whom? Can I -- your suspicions in respect to

12 this stench from the two vehicles?

13 A. Commander of my unit, Mladen Sipovac, Colonel.

14 Q. And you reported this in writing, I think you said.

15 A. The last two I submitted in writing. I submitted the first two in

16 writing as well, but I informed him about it verbally. I did not mention

17 it in writing.

18 Q. Coming back to what I said, you're not --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Just to complete the picture, Mr. Stamp, you were

20 identifying - excuse me - something that I had overlooked, and that was

21 that the witness said, as for the other two journeys, and that's the first

22 two, "We had our suspicions about things like those," and that's referring

23 back to the specific information about the third and fourth one, "But I

24 personally wrote the report to the unit commander, and I mentioned our

25 suspicions, but I hadn't seen anything."

Page 22125

1 Now the witness says that that means that the stench was something

2 he reported orally. So what exactly he wrote is not clear to me, if you

3 want to explore that further.

4 MR. STAMP: Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Sakic, that's precisely what I'm getting at. You have said

6 that you reported orally what originally you said you reported it in

7 writing. Can you please tell us, did you report the first two trips to

8 your superior in writing, that is your suspicions about the stench in?

9 MR. LUKIC: Asked and answered. We have it in the transcript.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And what is the answer?

11 MR. LUKIC: The answer is he reported it in writing but not

12 regarding that. He informed him orally.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: So my question which I had opened we would get an

14 answer to is what he actually reported in writing. So if you ask that

15 more specific question, Mr. Stamp, I don't any there will be any objection

16 taken to it.


18 Q. What did you actually report in writing?

19 A. In my written report I wrote when it was that we left, where we

20 arrived, what we took over, a closed refrigerator truck where the cooling

21 system was working, which way we drove back, what time we arrived, where

22 we left this, and where Mr. Protic left, and what vehicles were used, how

23 many persons, what persons, and so on.

24 Q. What did you report about your -- about the contents of those

25 trucks?

Page 22126

1 A. As for the last two tours that we drove, I made a note there as to

2 what it was I heard from what person. From captain so-and-so I heard what

3 I heard. From Mr. Protic who told me over breakfast in Petrovo Selo what

4 it was that was in there.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sakic, if I was the superior, your superior,

6 and you sent me a report like the one you've just described, I would, I

7 think, want to know what you were doing. You've told us everything in

8 that report except what your task was.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My task was to have the vehicle and

10 driver travel safely when going there and when coming back, nothing more

11 than that.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And you wouldn't feel it appropriate to report on

13 what the vehicle and driver were actually doing?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand that question,

15 please.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, is it normal for the army in Yugoslavia at

17 that time the to be driving refrigerating lorries round the country?

18 MR. LUKIC: Police, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, police.

20 Is it normal for the police at that time in Yugoslavia to be

21 driving refrigerated lorries round the country?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, I do apologise, but at

23 that time we were driving equipment for Kosovo and to Kosovo and from

24 Kosovo, and I had three refrigerator trucks full of weapons, Chinese

25 made. I also drove that in refrigerator trucks to Novi Sad where the

Page 22127

1 secondary school of the Ministry of the Interior is. So there was no

2 rule. It was a state of war.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: How did the police come to have --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: How did the police come to have refrigerator

6 trucks?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. When there's a

8 state of war, then probably they have the right to take them.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: So when you say you went to Novi Sad, were you

10 taking weapons, Chinese-made weapons, from Kosovo to Novi Sad?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. It was taken away

12 from the terrorists. We left it on one day, and the next day that

13 warehouse was bombed.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: When was that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember the exact date.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: And your report in that case would make no

17 reference to the fact that you were escorting refrigerator truckloads of

18 Chinese-made weapons?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Bonomy. That's what we

20 wrote in our report, because I was there when the trucks were being loaded

21 and I saw what it was that was being loaded onto the trucks, but I cannot

22 write about what I did not see.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Stamp.

24 JUDGE CHOWHAN: What did you see, especially at the -- at the

25 factory where there was wood? And then you learned from a captain of the

Page 22128

1 MUP what it had. You knew what was in the refrigerator van.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when arriving, since

3 this is in a higher place, I saw some carpentry machinery, and that is why

4 I came to the conclusion that it was that kind of a factory, judging by

5 the machines. At that moment, Mr. Protic parked his vehicle at the

6 entrance, and I didn't see what was happening after that. There were

7 three or four persons there that went down there to work. Mr. Protic came

8 to us and we talked there. I don't know what it was that was being

9 loaded. That was not my obligation or duty. My obligation or duty was to

10 provide this escort.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I think for the sake of clarification here, that

12 was the third trip; is that correct?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: My particular concern, and I think Judge Chowhan's

15 concern also is about the first two trips. What did you see on these

16 occasions?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On those occasions I did not see a

18 thing. They were closed. I didn't feel any stench, though, because I was

19 in the vehicle in front. I heard that from my colleagues who were in the

20 last vehicle.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.


23 Q. Didn't you tell us -- didn't you tell us that you smelled the

24 first -- the two refrigerator --

25 MR. LUKIC: Reference, please.

Page 22129

1 MR. STAMP: I'm asking him.

2 Q. Didn't you tell us that you smelled the first -- the stench of the

3 first two refrigerator trucks and they smelled like decaying bodies?

4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, when I'm going in front of the vehicle there is no

5 chance that I can feel the smell. Only the person who is driving behind.

6 I mean, they felt it, and they told me about it.

7 Q. Now, while we're trying to find if you said that and where you

8 said that --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's at page 109, line 21. But witness has

10 now amplified that answer.


12 Q. Now, isn't it correct to say that on the way back -- or on the way

13 into Serbia, on each occasion you stopped -- you stopped at the parking

14 lot at Velika Plana?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you spoke with Protic there?

17 A. Mr. Prosecutor, in Velika Plana there is this big area where we

18 stop, wash our hands, wash our faces. We get some mineral water, juice at

19 the petrol station. Protic says, "You're going with me to the MUP," and

20 we just act accordingly. We move on.

21 Q. All right. So I take it that yourself, Protic, and the other

22 escort vehicle stopped in approximately the same place?

23 A. Well, approximately always in Velika Plana, because there was this

24 big area there by the road.

25 Q. Didn't you smell the stench of decaying bodies from the truck when

Page 22130

1 you stopped with him to refresh yourself?

2 A. I was in front and I didn't feel anything. I heard about it from

3 the people who were in the back vehicle and from Protic too.

4 Q. I'm not asking you now about when you're driving, but you said you

5 heard about the stench from Protic. When was this?

6 A. Velika Plana. And when we went the next time, too, then he was

7 sitting there with me in the same vehicle, he'd say that, but then my

8 people also told me that this stench was felt. The people from the

9 vehicle in the back, I mean.

10 Q. When Protic told you about the stench at Velika Plana, was this

11 the first, second, third, or fourth trip?

12 A. The second time. Behind Rilindija.

13 Q. Listen, can you just focus on the question I'm asking you? I'm

14 asking you about the stench.

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. And you just told us that Protic told you while you were at Velika

17 Plana about it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This was the second trip?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, did you ask Protic about the stench of decaying bodies on

22 this second trip, when you were returning on this second trip?

23 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. We had our suspicions that this involved

24 corpses, but we didn't want to discuss it very much.

25 Q. So Protic just told you about the stench and you left it at that?

Page 22131

1 A. Yes. And my people also in the last week who felt this conveyed

2 this. And when I reported to the commander, I made him aware of that too.

3 Q. Just focus on -- I'm not talking about when you were driving on

4 the road. I'm talking about when you stopped on the way back at Velika

5 Plana. Didn't you smell the two trucks? Didn't you smell the stench of

6 decaying bodies when you stopped?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, there is no chance -- oh, please let me explain

8 this to you. Yes, yes, but please allow me to explain.

9 It's a big parking lot, and the vehicle was parked further away.

10 We were in front, and we did not feel it. We couldn't feel it. There was

11 no need for me to go there. There is this other person, this other

12 vehicle following this vehicle.

13 Q. You're driving -- what I want to understand, you're driving --

14 incidentally, what was your rank then?

15 A. Lieutenant.

16 Q. Lieutenant. Who was the most senior ranked person there then on

17 these outings?

18 A. Me. Me.

19 Q. You're saying that on the first two trips your subordinates told

20 you that the truck you're escorting stank of decaying bodies. You stop at

21 a parking lot, refresh yourselves, eat, drink, and wash up. Protic tells

22 you on one of these occasion that this -- the terrible stink from these

23 bodies are coming from the truck. Did you yourself not investigate or

24 smell --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

Page 22132

1 MR. LUKIC: Yes. I would like to have the reference when were the

2 witness mentioned decayed bodies. I think that he mentioned only that

3 they noticed unpleasant odour or smell but not from decayed bodies.

4 MR. STAMP: I asked him specifically if the unpleasant odour --

5 MR. LUKIC: That's exactly what I'm objecting. You asked

6 specifically that he said something and he didn't.

7 MR. STAMP: I'm asking specifically the unpleasant odour --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment. The reference is the one I gave you

9 earlier, 109, line 24. The question was: "And they stank of dead

10 bodies. That's what you thought the smell was." And the answer from the

11 witness was "Yes."

12 MR. LUKIC: But he learned it from other people. He wasn't sure

13 about that.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's the answer he's given at that stage.

15 I made the point to you earlier that that answer was qualified, but what

16 exactly the truth is will be determined later, and it could be any one of

17 these versions depending on what's accepted by the Bench.

18 MR. STAMP: To come back to the question, if may.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes you may.


21 Q. As the senior man there, the lieutenant in the MUP, when you

22 parked and refreshed yourself at Velika Plana, did you not inquire about

23 the stench that your subordinates told you about and that raised your

24 suspicion?

25 A. Mr. Prosecutor, it wasn't my place to ask questions about what I

Page 22133

1 was transporting. My job was to provide escort. Mr. Protic knew exactly

2 what he was carrying, and so on and so forth. I didn't know what I was

3 carrying, but I had my suspicions. I informed my superior of my

4 suspicions, and it wasn't my place to wonder why, what he would do next.

5 It wasn't my job to actually open it to see what was in there.

6 Q. I'm just -- I'm just inquiring, a simple question. Did you make

7 any further inquiries at Velika Plana when you had the opportunity to do

8 so? I -- is your answer is, "Yes, I did," or, "No, I did not"?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE CHOWHAN: There's one more question. When you are given an

11 assignment of escorting, taking -- going here and there, are you also told

12 of details of the route, of where you have to go, what would be there,

13 because if it is something more sensitive, you may require more security.

14 If there's nothing sensitive, you may not require. What were you told

15 here when you were given these assignments?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when the circumstances

17 are normal and I get an assignment, then everything gets explained. But

18 in this case when I was about to leave, I didn't even know what I was

19 leaving for. My assignment was to provide escort for Mr. Protic and that

20 alone. I had no idea where I was off to. He was taking us there, and

21 that was the extent of what I knew.


23 Q. There is Mr. Protic and there is the truck. Were you told at what

24 stage your responsibility to escort this truck that you didn't know about

25 the contents of would cease?

Page 22134

1 A. The only thing I was told, to provide escort for Mr. Protic. That

2 was all. My commander told me that. And that was the only assignment I

3 was given, for him alone, and then he'd be saying what, where, and when,

4 how far and that sort of thing, and so on and so forth. So although I far

5 out-ranked him, which I stated in my report, I sort of minded the fact

6 that I had not been given a more accurate and specific assignment and he

7 had been. I didn't like that. I said so.

8 Q. So on no occasion did you know how far you were to escort him to?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You took that from him?

11 A. [Microphone not activated] ... him.

12 Q. Where is Obilic in respect to Pristina? Sorry, just tell me how

13 far is it from Pristina?

14 A. About 12 kilometres. Yes, 10 to 12, 15 perhaps.

15 Q. When you went on the first trip, how long did you stay in Obilic?

16 A. No. We didn't even go into Obilic. Mr. Prosecutor, we went as

17 far as the turn-off for Obilic. That's on the left and on the right it

18 continues on for Mitrovica, and if you take the left road it takes you to

19 Gracanica, Urosevac and so on and so forth. As far as Milosevo, Lazerevo,

20 and so on and so forth.

21 Q. Remind me, on the first outing that you made, where did you

22 collect -- or where did Mr. Protic collect the truck? Where exactly?

23 A. I think this was a utility company, a public company, Pijaca, I

24 think, in Pristina. There's an open area there, a stretch of open ground

25 with gravel, and I think this was a market or a square.

Page 22135

1 Q. How long did you remain there at that square?

2 A. Ten minutes at the very most.

3 MR. STAMP: I'm wondering if it's a convenient time.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: How much longer do you expect to be?

5 MR. STAMP: Perhaps an hour at the most. At the most.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Sakic, if you were put in this position

7 again, would you act in the same way?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: What would you do that was different?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would have changed my job. I

11 would have found myself a different job. I certainly wouldn't have been

12 doing the job that I was doing.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps you've misunderstood my question.

14 If you were in the position you were in, a lieutenant in the

15 police, and were today faced with a similar situation, would you act in a

16 similar way?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would have requested from my

18 superior to be given a fully specific assignment, to know what I was to do

19 and how I was to do it, and then I would have followed his orders.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And in the situation where you learned enough to

21 alert you to the serious possibility that bodies were being transported

22 around the country, would you have acted in the same way as you acted?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, believe me, I don't

24 know that given the same situation again that I would do the same thing or

25 not.

Page 22136

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, before the Chamber rises I wonder if I

3 could ask two questions. There was something that I really ought to ask

4 tonight.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well, Mr. Stamp.


7 Q. You said that Mr. Protic told you about somebody from the FBI by

8 the name of Phil who made him some promises.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think it's quite right to put the two

10 together. There was someone from the FBI and separately someone called

11 Phil, an investigator, and I don't think the two were linked, Mr. Stamp.

12 MR. STAMP: All right. I'm sorry.

13 Q. The investigator Phil, do you know what organisation he's attached

14 to?

15 A. Philip.

16 Q. Philip.

17 A. This Tribunal. His calling card was in Mr. Protic's possession,

18 and he actually showed it to me. I can't remember the exact name, but I

19 did see it.

20 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sakic, that brings our proceedings for today to

22 an end. We have to stop at this time. That means you need to return to

23 complete your evidence tomorrow. That will be at 9.00 tomorrow morning,

24 but it will be in a different courtroom. It will be in Court III. So you

25 need to be there for 9.00.

Page 22137

1 Meanwhile, it is a strict rule that we have that you must not

2 communicate with anyone at all about any of the evidence in this case, any

3 aspect of the evidence whatsoever. You can talk to people about whatever

4 you like except that you must not speak or communicate with anyone about

5 the evidence in this case.

6 Now, would you please leave the courtroom with the usher, and

7 we'll see you tomorrow at 9.00.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.36 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day

11 of February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.