1 Tuesday, 26 February 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, everyone. We shall continue with the

6 evidence of Mr. Vucurevic.

7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, there are two matters while the witness

8 is coming in. P1990 was an exhibit when Mr. Ackerman was cross-examining

9 the witness yesterday. It became apparent that one line apparently was a

10 bad translation, that has been submitted. We do have a new translation,

11 it's been uploaded in e-court, and we seek leave to replace the previous

12 translation with this new one.

13 And P2157 was used by Mr. Ivetic. We had no translation at that

14 time. We since have obtained one and uploaded it into e-court and we

15 would like to advise you of that. We have advised the parties of that and

16 I understand no one has an objection to either.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, on the understanding that there's no

19 opposition to the substitution of the new translation of P1990 and to the

20 translation of P2157 being uploaded and admitted as the respective

21 translations of these exhibits, then we shall authorise that.

22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Vucurevic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: The cross-examination by Mr. Hannis will now

1 continue.

2 Mr. Hannis.

3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 WITNESS: RADOVAN VUCUREVIC [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vucurevic. The first item I want to ask you

8 about is an exhibit I think Mr. Ackerman showed you, it's 6D130. I don't

9 know if you have that in your binder or not. It's a document dated the

10 27th of March, 1999. Do you recall seeing this one before?

11 A. Yes, during proofing.

12 Q. And it's from the assistant to the minister a Major-General Stojan

13 Misic to the -- all the SUPs, to the border police stations, and to the

14 MUP staff head, and to other administrations. I'm interested in item

15 number 1, and it's -- this is in connection with a decision of the federal

16 government to proclaim a state of war. Item 1 says: "Update the list of

17 foreigners." Well, there's a question about the translation. Maybe you

18 should read it out for us and we'll get a translation from the booth as we

19 go. Could you do that? Would you read number 1 for me, please.

20 A. Item 1 reads: "Update the lists of foreigners, those permanently

21 resident and those temporarily residing in the country, as -- and carry

22 out any other preparations for them to perhaps be taken by force to the

23 state border and expelled from the FRY, or rather, taken to whichever

24 reception centres will be designated for this purpose." I'm not sure

25 whether I've read it correctly.

1 Q. Okay. Were you aware of this instruction, to update the lists so

2 that they could -- so that the foreigners could be forcibly escorted to

3 the state border?

4 A. No, not as far as I know. I wasn't aware of it at the time. As I

5 told you, I only saw this document during proofing.

6 Q. Were you aware at the time of a provision in the law for forcibly

7 removing all foreigners during a state of war?

8 A. No, I was not aware of such a provision.

9 Q. Are you aware now whether there is or was such a provision?

10 A. No, I don't know what law this sort of provision might be part of.

11 Q. Okay. And I don't know if you've read the document, but it

12 doesn't appear that there's any reference to the law under which that

13 would arise; do you agree with me?

14 A. I do. This item does not refer to any specific regulation.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, yesterday I think there was a discussion with you

16 about identity cards and passports and documents. I was a little unclear

17 on parts of that discussion. You mentioned that for personal identity

18 cards and passports and other documents there are registers that are

19 kept. Now, can you explain to me where these registers are kept? Are

20 they in the local SUPs or is there some other office where those records

21 were maintained in 1999?

22 A. Every year the same situation applied. The registers were kept in

23 the secretariat of the interior, and the secretariat of the interior

24 actually issued those documents.

25 Q. And I wasn't clear, were those electronic registers or are there

1 hard copies or both?

2 A. In the case of travel documents there were manual registers. I

3 can't remember what the first year was for this sort of procedure to be

4 introduced, but I think one part of the secretariat as from one point in

5 time on, it became electronic. As for personal ID this is done by hand

6 but then all this information is then entered into a unified information

7 system.

8 Q. And --

9 A. So that if you have the first and last names of each and every

10 person or the citizen's identification number, you can run and check and

11 you can see where and when they were issued with a personal identification

12 document.

13 Q. Okay. So when you said in that answer regarding the personal IDs,

14 this was done by hand and then all this information is entered into a

15 unified information system. Is the unified information system an

16 electronic computer system?

17 A. Yes, it's a computer system.

18 Q. Thank you. Now --

19 A. I do have one extra remark to make here. Depending on the

20 equipment that a particular secretariat had available to it, there was

21 some secretariats where the ID documents were typewritten and there were

22 other secretariats where these documents were produced by using a

23 computer.

24 Q. Thank you. Judge Bonomy asked you a question yesterday at page 4,

25 line 12, and it was in connection with the answer you gave about -- you

1 said you think that you had heard at the administration that these records

2 were handed over to UNMIK. And Judge Bonomy asked you: What is the

3 source of your information on this? And you said: "In contacts with

4 employees of the administration."

5 My question to you is: Can you name the administration employees

6 from whom you heard that these records had been handed over to UNMIK? Who

7 told you that, if you can recall?

8 A. I can't recall right now who it was specifically.

9 Q. And when you say those records were handed over, do you mean the

10 hard copies or electronic files?

11 A. I really don't know how they were handed over. Maybe this was

12 information that was shared on an informal basis and maybe it's something

13 that didn't concern me at all.

14 Q. Do you know or -- strike that.

15 Even if those documents were handed over to UNMIK, wouldn't the

16 MUP or wouldn't the administration have kept at least a copy for

17 themselves as well?

18 A. I really don't know how this went and what exactly was handed

19 over. I told you about the types of records that were kept. In my

20 opinion, even if all those registers had been handed over it would have

21 still been down to the unified database of the Ministry of the Interior of

22 the Republic of Serbia to keep all this information, to preserve it.

23 Q. Judge Chowhan asked you a question yesterday at page 10 about

24 whether the registers have a column mentioning the ethnicity of a person

25 or whether that information is on or in the ID cards. You

1 said: "Wherever there was a request for personal identification documents

2 to be issued, there was a box that stated the person's ethnicity but no

3 citizen was under an obligation to have that recorded."

4 You went on to say that: "Normally this type of information was

5 something you could always find in the records."

6 How was it that this could always be found in the records? Is it

7 something that's noted on the birth certificates, for example?

8 A. As far as I know, this wasn't something that was noted on the

9 birth certificates. The only thing noted at the time was date and place

10 of birth and information regarding parents as well as citizenship.

11 Q. If the -- for example, if the individual requesting an

12 identification card did not provide that information, would the

13 governmental clerk or person filling out the form put in ethnicity based

14 on what they observed from the individual, based on their name, based on

15 the language they used?

16 A. In our country all the forms are filled out by whoever is putting

17 in a request. Every time a form is filled in, the person making the

18 request does it, and then the request is signed.

19 Q. Okay. If there's no request from the citizen to include their

20 ethnicity on those forms, though, is it left blank?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. We've seen some records from census I think from 1981 and then

23 we've seen some estimates of the population and the ethnic breakdown in

24 Kosovo for 1991 and later. From where would that information be obtained

25 that showed in some of those reports that the ethnic background of the

1 population of Kosovo was 80 per cent or higher of Albanians? Where is

2 that ethnic information obtained from?

3 A. I don't know. I assume this would have been based on a census.

4 Whenever there is a census, ethnicity is something that is declared by

5 each of the citizens involved in it.

6 Q. And are they required to report an ethnicity when the census is

7 taken?

8 A. They are not strictly required as far as I know.

9 Q. Isn't it true that in 1988 and 1989 in Kosovo you could generally

10 make a good educated guess about somebody's ethnicity simply based on

11 their name?

12 A. I don't see why we should talk about this in reference to 1988 and

13 1989. It's a generally known fact that members of the Albanian ethnic

14 minority have different names as opposed to Serbs, and the same thing

15 applies in Vojvodina where there is a far greater number of ethnic

16 minorities, the Hungarians, the Ruthinians, the Slovaks and so on and so

17 forth. Therefore, if you look at a person's name, yes, it might make it

18 possible for you to infer their ethnicity, but each person is perfectly

19 free to declare their ethnicity on whatever basis they like. They can say

20 whatever they like. In the former SFRY there were citizens who at a

21 census declared their ethnicity to be Yugoslav.

22 Q. I've seen and heard from some of those. And I apologise, I said

23 1988 and 1989, I meant 1998 and 1999, but I understand your answer doesn't

24 need to be limited to those years. You talked about where you were housed

25 when you were working for the staff, for the MUP staff in Kosovo, and at

1 page 18, line 21, you told us Novica Zdravkovic sat in one office, your

2 office was opposite his, next to yours was Desimir Slovic, right next to

3 your offices was a big one with Dusko Adamovic and Goran Radosavljevic,

4 and then Mr. Mijatovic and Mr. Lukic had their offices. By my count you

5 only named seven individuals. Was that the total make-up of the MUP

6 staff, just you seven persons?

7 A. Those were people that I met every day and they had each their own

8 office. I forgot to mention General Stojanovic. I can't remember

9 specifically when he first arrived, but he too had an office that was

10 adjacent to Mr. Zdravkovic's office. Those were the people I used to see

11 in those rooms and offices, and I was not really aware of anyone else

12 having an office there.

13 Q. You --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: You're recorded as saying General Stojanovic. What

15 name did you mention there? You forgot that -- that you had forgotten to

16 mention?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. General Momcilo Stojanovic.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: When did he join the MUP staff?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember exactly, but I know

20 that he was there too, perhaps, roughly speaking, sometime around October

21 or November but I can't be more specific than that.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Is he mentioned in any of these decisions,

23 Mr. Hannis?

24 MR. HANNIS: Not that I recall, Your Honour. I was just about to

25 follow up.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, please. Thank you.

2 MR. HANNIS:

3 Q. What was his job or role on the staff?

4 A. I don't know. Several times I heard that he went to some meetings

5 about some flats that were being built.

6 Q. How did you know that he was a member of the staff? Did anyone

7 introduce him as that or circulate a memo saying, Welcome General

8 Stojanovic, our new staff member? How did you know that he was part of

9 the staff?

10 A. I didn't say he was part of the staff. All I said was he was

11 there too. He had an office that was next to ours.

12 Q. Okay. Well, my question was: Was it only seven of you who were

13 on the MUP staff? And then I understood by mentioning him in your answer

14 you were telling us that he was also on the staff.

15 MR. LUKIC: I would have to intervene at this point. The witness

16 yesterday mentioned also members who were employed by the Pristina SUP at

17 the same time, so these seven and some other people who were at the same

18 building.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: The problem is we can't go back on the transcript

20 at the moment.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 MR. LUKIC: In my question when I asked him about the offices, I

23 asked him specifically --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment, Mr. Lukic.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic, what was your point?

2 THE LUKIC: This witness mentioned seven people as members of

3 staff sitting at that location.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.

5 MR. LUKIC: And there were I think two or three other members of

6 staff who were members of Pristina SUP at the same time, part-time members

7 of the staff.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but that would suggest that the reason for

9 mentioning Stojanovic is connected with the work of the staff, and that's

10 what Mr. Hannis is pursuing. Whether full time or part time, no doubt

11 he's hoping the witness will be able to amplify our knowledge on the

12 matter, that's all. So please -- I think bearing in mind what Mr. Lukic

13 has said, Mr. Hannis, nevertheless it is I think a matter on which we

14 would like a little more information if you can obtain it for us.

15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Vucurevic, what I am trying to find out is how many MUP staff

17 members were there. You named those seven, including yourself, and

18 General Lukic. Who else was on the MUP staff with you, anyone else?

19 A. I can say based on who was there, Mr. Mijatovic, Mr. Dusko

20 Adamovic, Mr. Desimir Slovic, and Mr. Goran Radosavljevic. As for

21 employees of the Ministry of the Interior, those were the ones who had

22 been dispatched to Pristina.

23 Q. You just now didn't mention Novica Zdravkovic. Was he or was he

24 not a member of the staff?

25 A. Novica Zdravkovic was a member of the staff when I first arrived

1 in April 1998.

2 Q. And is that it? Is that the total? Is there anyone else?

3 A. That was all. I said yesterday who was there before June 1998,

4 Mr. Djinovic and then he returned.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Vucurevic, the question that was asked earlier

6 Mr. Hannis said to you: "You told us Zdravkovic sat in one office, your

7 office was opposite his, next to yours was Slovic, right next to your

8 offices was a big one with Adamovic and Radosavljevic, and then Mijatovic

9 and Lukic had their offices. By my count you named only seven. Was that

10 the total make-up of the MUP staff?

11 And you said: "Those were people that I met every day and they

12 had each their own office. I forgot to mention General Stojanovic. I

13 can't remember specifically when he first arrived, but he too had an

14 office that was adjacent to Mr. Zdravkovic's office."

15 Now, so far is that an accurate statement of your position, your

16 recollection?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's true that I said that, but

18 Mr. Prosecutor asked me about who had their offices there and that is why

19 I said that I just remembered that General Stojanovic's office was right

20 there as well.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, I've just pointed out to you, Mr. Vucurevic,

22 that that was not the question. The question was: "Was that the total

23 make-up of the MUP staff, just you seven persons?"

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And perhaps I misunderstood the

25 question, since we were talking about all the offices that were there.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, please help me to understand the position.

2 You've just mentioned as a person who is beside you, in the same working

3 area, at the very least a general called Stojanovic and the only person

4 senior to him working in the office would appear to be General Lukic. Is

5 that correct?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, General Lukic and

7 General Stojanovic were both major-generals. As I said, I didn't know

8 exactly what General Stojanovic's job was.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic was suggesting when he interrupted that

10 he was actually a member of the SUP staff who was working part time for

11 the -- sorry, I've misunderstood.

12 What was your point, Mr. Lukic?

13 MR. LUKIC: There were two other members from --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I see. You weren't referring to --

15 MR. LUKIC: No, no --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry --

17 MR. LUKIC: Sorry if I made --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no, I'm sure it's my misunderstanding.

19 So Stojanovic, can you just tell us one way or another, was he a

20 member of the MUP staff for Kosovo?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. I'm only

22 certain about the persons that I have enumerated.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: So you're saying that there's a general --

24 major-general working in there and you don't actually know whether he has

25 any role to play in the staff of which you're part. That is your

1 evidence, is it?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. Professionally

3 we were not in touch at all.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Was he there very much?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he sometimes was. He would

6 come and go. I can't remember specifically.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Vucurevic, I'm finding it very difficult

8 to accept that's the sum and substance of your knowledge of the presence

9 of a major-general in an office more or less next to yours during a period

10 of high tension in the most controversial part of the Balkans at that

11 time. Now, please try to help us with a clear indication of the frequency

12 of his attendance there and the general nature of the job he was doing.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that I know that

14 he came and that he went to attend some meetings related to housing

15 issues. What it was that he did altogether is something I really don't

16 know.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS:

19 Q. And just to be clear, he's a police general, not an army general,

20 right?

21 A. Police general, yes. And as far as I know he worked at the SUP

22 Pozarevac.

23 Q. Thank you. The reason that I was asking my question was yesterday

24 when you gave us that list of names of people and what offices they were

25 all in, Mr. Lukic went on to ask you: "Apart from these offices, were

1 there any other rooms at the SUP of Pristina that were used by the staff?"

2 Your answer was: "No, we didn't use any other rooms."

3 And then he asked you: "Is that to say that all the members of

4 the staff were present on that same floor in those few offices?"

5 And your answer was: "We were all on the same floor."

6 So is that correct, all you members of the staff were on that same

7 floor and all you members are just those seven persons that you named? Is

8 that correct?

9 A. But on that floor where we were there were the offices of the

10 Pristina SUP. There were other employees there as well. I cannot

11 remember now what organizational units they belonged to. I just said that

12 the staff did not have a separate building, separate premises where they

13 were put up. They were put up at the Pristina SUP building.

14 Q. Right now I'm not interested in who else might have been on the

15 floor with you. My question is: Is that the total membership of the

16 staff, of the MUP staff, is that you seven guys that you named on that

17 floor and nobody else? I don't care about people from the SUP. I just

18 want to know about the MUP staff.

19 A. Only the persons that I mentioned, yes.

20 Q. Thank you. You were asked about a document, I think it was P1990,

21 and there was a discussion about a plan of the public security sector with

22 a view to preventing and disabling the entry of the military forces of

23 NATO into our territory. And Mr. Lukic asked you: The public -- or maybe

24 it was Mr. Ackerman at this point. You were asked: "The public security

25 sector, is it in charge of defending the state border?"

1 Your answer was: "As far as I know, the public security sector is

2 not in charge of defending the state border."

3 But my question is: But wasn't MUP supposed to work together with

4 the VJ in preventing any possible land invasion by NATO? That was part of

5 the overall defence plan, wasn't it, for MUP to assist VJ in preventing a

6 NATO invasion?

7 A. Well, the defence of the country as far as I know is the task of

8 the Army of Yugoslavia, while the Ministry of the Interior is supposed to

9 take care of its own work.

10 Q. And during a state of war would not that work include helping

11 prevent an invasion by NATO or do you know?

12 A. I don't know about that.

13 Q. I asked you a little bit yesterday about the Joint Command, and I

14 think you told us that you maybe heard it one time and we decided that

15 might have been the time when President Milutinovic visited and spoke and

16 mentioned the term. Mr. Ackerman asked you at page 30, line 18, he

17 pointed out to you that one of the things that he and you both know about

18 large organizations is, like police and military, it's all about reporting

19 and paperwork and there's a lot of it.

20 And your answer was: "That's right, but everyone knew only about

21 what they were doing for security reasons."

22 Now, Mr. Vucurevic, that's a concept I'm familiar with in my

23 system and we use the term "need to know." Are you familiar with that

24 term in the context of security concerns, need to know, meaning you're

25 only told what you need to know and nothing more? Is that a concept that

1 you're familiar with in your work?

2 A. Could you put a more specific question. I didn't quite

3 understand. It was a long introduction.

4 Q. Okay. Well, for example, if I'm General Lukic and I'm going to

5 Joint Command meetings, I may not tell you about it because you don't need

6 to know about the Joint Command to do your job. So do you understand the

7 term "need to know" in that context?

8 A. Now I understood. I've already said that General Lukic did not

9 submit reports to me as to what meetings he attended.

10 Q. And would you agree with me that that may be a reason that you

11 don't know anything about the Joint Command because it's not something

12 that would impact on your work? You told us you didn't deal with the

13 combat operations or the PJP and the SAJ and the work they were doing,

14 right?

15 A. That's possible.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you.

17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I hate to interrupt, but that's a

18 compound question so I'm not sure what question the witness is actually

19 answering.

20 MR. HANNIS: I think that's an appropriate objection, Your

21 Honour. I can go back and --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. Please do.

23 MR. HANNIS: -- ask two questions.

24 Q. Sir, you just said that's possible, are you referring to -- well,

25 let me ask it this way. First of all, you didn't deal with combat

1 operations or what the PJP and the SAJ were doing out in the field in

2 joint operations with the VJ, for example. Is that right?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. And so if that were a matter that may have been one of the

5 concerns of a body called the Joint Command, then that could be a reason

6 that you didn't know about the Joint Command because you had nothing to do

7 with those kinds of actions or operations. Do you agree with me about

8 that?

9 A. Well, I've already said that I do remember roughly when it was

10 that I heard that term; however, in terms of experience, had this kind of

11 a body existed, just as I said when I heard of a plan, I mean if there was

12 a Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija, I would have had to hear about it

13 and know who the members were at least.

14 Q. Well, are you saying it's your position that there was no Joint

15 Command for Kosovo and Metohija?

16 A. I don't know about that.

17 Q. But you seem to say that if there had been you must have heard

18 about it or you would have heard about it. Isn't that what you just

19 said?

20 A. As I said that I heard of the term, as I've said, I heard of a

21 plan and this plan had some stages. So I assume that I would have to have

22 at least some basic knowledge of the existence of something and where that

23 something was, although I did not deal with that and that was not part of

24 my work.

25 Q. Okay. In your preparations for testifying, were you shown a

1 document, it's our Exhibit Number P2166, which are the minutes of a

2 meeting of the operations inter-departmental staff for combatting

3 terrorism in Kosovo. It's a meeting that included Mr. Milosevic,

4 President Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Minic, General Lukic, General

5 Pavkovic, and several other members of the higher-ranking officials of the

6 army, the MUP, and the political personnel. Do you recall being shown

7 that document?

8 A. I think I saw that.

9 Q. And did you see in that that Mr. Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic,

10 President Milosevic, General Pavkovic, Mr. Minic, and your own General

11 Lukic all referred to the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija during

12 that meeting. You saw that, didn't you?

13 A. I don't remember exactly. I think I did see that when I was

14 looking at documents and I looked at quite a few documents. I cannot

15 remember exactly what is stated in each and every document.

16 Q. And are you aware that General Lukic has told the investigators of

17 the OTP that he attended meetings of the Joint Command in Kosovo in 1998

18 and 1999?

19 A. No, I don't think I know about that.

20 Q. That's in an exhibit in this trial. Having heard that and having

21 seen that document of the meeting that I asked you about before, does that

22 change your opinion about whether or not there may have been a Joint

23 Command but you just didn't become aware of it when you were in Kosovo in

24 1998 and 1999?

25 A. Could you please repeat your question.

1 Q. Never mind. I'll move on to my last question because I've run

2 over my time. I want to show you exhibit P1811. I can hand you a hard

3 copy with the assistance of the usher.

4 Now, I know this is dated after you left Kosovo, because I

5 understand you were injured -- was that on the 1st of April,

6 Mr. Vucurevic, when you were injured in the bombing?

7 A. No. The 29th of March.

8 Q. Okay. Do you know where General Lukic and Colonel Mijatovic were

9 at the time you got injured in that bombing? Were they in the same

10 building?

11 A. When I was injured, they were not in the building of the Pristina

12 SUP.

13 Q. This document, P1811, is dated the 31st of May, 1999, and you'll

14 see it's a decision on the establishment of the ministry staff for the

15 suppression of terrorism. That's the same title we saw on Exhibit P1505

16 from June 16th of 1998, right? And if you would look at the last page,

17 page 2 of the English, item number 6, this decision supersedes the

18 decision on the establishment of the ministry staff for the suppression of

19 terrorism, number 1580/98 of 16 June 1998, which I will tell you is at

20 Exhibit P1505. So other than this document and P1505 for the period from

21 June 1998 to May 31st, 1999, it appears there was no other document in

22 force regarding the ministry staff for the suppression of terrorism.

23 Would you agree with that?

24 A. Well, I do agree because what is written here is that this

25 decision is no longer in force once this decision is adopted.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions for this witness, Your

3 Honour.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Vucurevic, you indicated to us that there were

6 occasions when you saw Gajic and you mentioned the lunchroom as a place

7 you would see him within the building. Over what period was it that you

8 were aware of his presence there?

9 A. Well, I can't remember exactly but I think that it was immediately

10 upon arrival. This was a common room where we had breakfast, lunch, and

11 dinner. So all the people who worked in Pristina came there, people who

12 worked in Pristina but had actually come from other secretariats and other

13 organizational units outside the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: And over what period of time were you aware that he

15 was around?

16 A. You mean for how long he was there?

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Was there a time after which you just didn't

18 see him?

19 A. Well, I can't remember exactly, but I think that while I was there

20 he wasn't there all the time. Now, was this in the autumn of 1998? As

21 far as I know, by then he was no longer in Pristina. I didn't see him

22 then.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: So after what time? Can you help me? After what

24 date roughly did you not see him again?

25 A. Well, as I've said, I cannot remember exactly. I think it was

1 either September or October. I'm not quite sure, because I didn't see all

2 these people every day. Sometimes you would see someone and sometimes you

3 simply wouldn't run into them. I just know that he worked at the state

4 security sector and that he was in charge.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, you said that you saw Legija on one occasion.

6 Do you remember roughly when that was?

7 A. That, I truly cannot remember. I just know that I saw him once

8 during lunchtime.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you remember the day that General Lukic first

10 arrived to take up his position as head of the staff? I don't mean the

11 date. Can you remember him arriving to take up his post?

12 A. Well, I remember that day, of course. I cannot remember the exact

13 date, but a meeting was held and I think that the previous head of staff

14 was there, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Novica Zdravkovic, Mr. Goran Radosavljevic, then

15 Mr. Miodrag Zumovic [phoen], and I. I don't think I can remember anybody

16 else being present.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And what was to happen to the previous head?

18 A. As far as I know, he went back to the job he held before that at

19 the traffic police administration.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: So did you find out why Mr. Lukic was there, why he

21 had been appointed?

22 A. As far as I understood things, the previous head of staff had

23 already spent a year in Pristina. It was my understanding that that is

24 why he was going back to his job.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell me in maybe two or three sentences

1 what was the purpose of the MUP staff for Kosovo?

2 A. Well, I've already said that I really didn't understand what the

3 point of this staff was either. I can say briefly what I know of, that is

4 to say what I know of what we did.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there anything that you did that couldn't have

6 been done by using the ordinary organizational units of the MUP?

7 A. No. As for my line of work, I didn't do anything that they

8 couldn't have done.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a bit of a puzzle then what this body was

10 there for as far -- in your mind at least.

11 A. Well, I've already said when I went to the administration once or

12 twice for preparations, that nobody showed me what it was that this staff

13 did nor did anyone tell me clearly, precisely, and concisely, these are

14 your obligations, these are your powers, this is what you're supposed to

15 do. I told you what the circumstances were surrounding my secondment to

16 Pristina. It was my understanding that it was some kind of a punishment.

17 It's not that I was promoted, that I was sent to a higher position. They

18 sent me to Kosovo in the period when practically every day a policeman or

19 a citizen would get killed or abducted. So I went there highly

20 dissatisfied, and I didn't have any choice. I only could have resigned.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And you never got the impression while you were

22 there that there was a need in dealing with the Kosovo problem for a body

23 that would coordinate the activity of the police, the various police

24 organizational units within Kosovo?

25 A. Well, that's not the impression I had. I am speaking from the

1 vantage point of the line of work that I had.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 Anything arising from that, Mr. Hannis?

4 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

6 Re-examination, Mr. Lukic?

7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

8 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vucurevic.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Well, this is coming to an end, isn't it. I asked you something

12 on Friday, page 23055. That question was not recorded, it just says "the

13 16th of June, 1998," that will probably be corrected. However, in your

14 answer you say from line 17 onwards, I'm going to read it out in English

15 so that you would receive a proper interpretation of the English

16 transcript.

17 [In English] "Also, there were persons there who were working at

18 the Pristina SUP, such as Milorad Rajicic, Rasko Milenkovic, and

19 Dr. Dobrasin Krdzic and Milutin Vukovic. I think that he also worked in

20 the Pristina SUP."

21 [Interpretation] Out of these persons you mentioned here, can you

22 remember who it was that worked at the Pristina SUP while simultaneously

23 carrying out duties in the MUP staff?

24 A. It is Mr. Rajicic, then Mr. Krdzic, then -- no, I forgot the last

25 name and when I was speaking then I had the document in front of me. The

1 man who was an analyst and I'm sure that he worked at the SUP Pristina. I

2 just wasn't sure about Vukovic, whether he worked at the Pristina SUP

3 then.

4 Q. Let us then look at P1505.

5 A. Yes, Rasko Milenkovic is the name that slipped my mind.

6 Q. Were these persons members of the staff to the best of your

7 knowledge?

8 A. They were members of the staff, that is how they were introduced

9 to me too and ...

10 Q. Did they sit with you on the same floor in those six or seven

11 offices?

12 A. No, they used their regular offices, their regular work premises

13 in the Pristina SUP.

14 Q. These offices of theirs, were they in the same building or in

15 different buildings?

16 A. I've already said there was several buildings in Pristina.

17 Q. But were they part of the same complex of buildings?

18 A. Mr. Milorad Rajicic had an office one or two floors above mine, so

19 I know for sure that he was in the same building.

20 Q. Today on page 5, line 24, you were asked whether ethnicity was

21 recorded in the card required for issuing a personal identity card. Do

22 you remember there was an explicit remark on that card that the applicant

23 was under no obligation to state his or her ethnicity?

24 A. I cannot now remember the exact contents of that application form,

25 but I do know that the officials at the window have no right to ask an

1 applicant to state their ethnicity.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now call up 6D269.

3 Q. Do you have the document before you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. My colleague Mr. Ackerman asked you yesterday why the addressee,

6 state security sector, has a remark, for their information, next to it.

7 First we have to see who signed this document and their official title.

8 A. It was the chief of sector, Lieutenant-General Vlastimir

9 Djordjevic.

10 Q. Which sector?

11 A. Public security sector.

12 Q. Was it possible for him to order anything to the state security

13 sector?

14 A. No, he cannot order anything to the state security sector because

15 the latter has it own chief.

16 Q. With this same document you were asked to look at item 7,

17 referring to volunteer and paramilitary units and their members. For as

18 long as you were in Kosovo and Metohija, did you know whether there were

19 any volunteers on the police force?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 Q. You were shown document P1989. We don't need it on the screen,

22 but on page 2 you were shown a report from the chief of secretariat in

23 Gnjilane, Colonel Dusan Gavranic, where he says that there had been

24 problems with volunteers in Zegra. I will show you 6D614.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have it in e-court, please,

1 page 15.

2 Q. In para 2 what is written?

3 A. "Village Zegra, 31st March 1999, homicide under Article 47 of the

4 criminal law of the Republic of Serbia. On 31st March 1999 authorised

5 officers with the secretariat in Gnjilane filed a criminal complaint KU

6 number 183/99 against Vlado Zmajevic from Niksic, Zeljko Djuricic from

7 Zrenjanin, Ratko Soldat from Vrbas, Goran Kostelnik from Vrbas, Sasa

8 Djosanovic from Zrenjanin, Nikola Ivelic from Vrbas, and Damir Novic from

9 Zrenjanin. Members of the volunteer unit of the VJ for the criminal act

10 of homicide against Uksin Uksini and Djazim Haziri from Zegra village.

11 The perpetrators were remanded in custody under Article 196 of the Law on

12 Criminal Procedure. The criminal complaint was submitted to the office of

13 the competent military prosecutor on the 1st of April, 1999. An

14 investigation of the crime scene was conducted and photo documentation

15 compiled. The case is under jurisdiction of the competent army

16 authorities."

17 Q. Can we see from this which volunteers are the subject of this

18 report by the chief of secretariat Dusan Gavranic? Were you aware of this

19 or have you -- did you already leave?

20 A. I had already left, but it says here a volunteer unit of the Army

21 of Yugoslavia.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have in e-court P1990.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, this is the document where I indicated

24 before that we would admit portions of it, and you indicated that there

25 are still translations ongoing in relation to parts of it.

1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: On reflection, the best plan I think is to simply

3 mark for identification each passage as it comes and deal with the thing

4 in one all-encompassing order in due course to keep things under control

5 and there will be no doubt in anybody's mind about what has been admitted,

6 rather than that piecemeal suggestion I made. So --

7 MR. LUKIC: Have one witness at the end --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

9 MR. LUKIC: -- who took part in this --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's yet another reason why we should leave

11 the final disposition of any part of this until that stage.

12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: And for the avoidance of doubt in the transcript,

14 that comment refers to 6D614 and not to the exhibit you're now calling up.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Vucurevic, do you have P1990 before you?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Did you attend this meeting?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. My colleague Mr. Ackerman suggested to you that Sreten Lukic was

21 superior to the minister and his two assistants by virtue of the fact that

22 he was chairing this meeting. You explained that the fact was he was like

23 a host at the staff, and I want to ask you: In February 1999 is it the

24 case that Minister Stojiljkovic, Generals Djordjevic and Obradovic [sic],

25 at this moment on the 17th of February, 1999, were permanently in Kosovo

1 and Metohija or did they come as guests on that occasion?

2 A. I believe that they had come as guests.

3 Q. Was Sreten Lukic superior at that meeting or at any time in 1998

4 or 1999 to Minister Stojiljkovic, chief of the state security -- sorry,

5 chief of the public security sector Djordjevic or his assistant

6 Stevanovic?

7 A. No, he wasn't superior to them and he couldn't be because they had

8 higher positions, especially Djordjevic, who worked at the SUP in

9 Belgrade.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, again for the avoidance of doubt,

11 although I think it becomes clear, your reference was not to General

12 Obradovic, I take it, but to General Obrad Stevanovic.

13 MR. LUKIC: My mistake, I wrote it wrong as well.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: But you meant Stevanovic?

15 MR. LUKIC: I meant Stevanovic.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 MR. LUKIC: But also we have to correct something in the

18 transcript, line 7, page 28, it says that Djordjevic who worked at the SUP

19 in Belgrade, it was actually Lukic who came to the MUP staff from the SUP

20 Belgrade.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Page 28, which line?

22 MR. LUKIC: 7 and 8, but I can ask the witness again.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you should.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Vucurevic, who came to the MUP staff in Kosovo from SUP

1 Belgrade?

2 A. From what I know, General Sreten Lukic and I believe also

3 Mr. Dusko Adamovic had worked in SUP Belgrade and I believe even Goran

4 Radosavljevic worked in SUP Belgrade. Only Mr. Mijatovic had come from

5 the police administration from the headquarters of the Ministry of the

6 Interior.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up in e-court 6D262.

8 Q. Can you see it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. My learned friend Mr. Hannis asked you how you received the

11 assignments you were to carry out in Kosovo and Metohija. The last

12 paragraph in B/C/S, page 1, reads: "For purposes of uniform treatment of

13 diplomatic and consular missions, representatives of international

14 organizations and international humanitarian organizations accredited in

15 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, it is necessary to proceed as

16 follows."

17 And then on the next page we have the procedures listed. My

18 question is: Does this dispatch also stipulate your assignments vis-a-vis

19 diplomats, representatives of humanitarian organizations, and other

20 international organizations?

21 A. Yes. Item by item it is listed here exactly how we were to

22 proceed with representatives of these international organizations.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you have responsibilities in relation to

24 diplomats?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not have any contacts with

1 them.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have the Prosecution

4 Exhibit P1693.

5 Q. You don't have it so please look at the screen.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we need only page 1.

7 Q. It's an overview of security-related important events dated 1st

8 May 1999. I would like you to comment on what you see on the last page,

9 namely, that 715.158 persons had left Kosovo, although that's not the time

10 when you were there. But since you were asked about this I want to ask

11 you too. If you don't know, say that you don't know. Did you hear from

12 your colleagues whether these people were counted precisely or was it an

13 estimate of the employees at border crossings?

14 A. I didn't hear anything about it, but I think it must be an

15 estimate because with those crowds and pressure at border crossings I

16 believe it's impossible to count and register all those people.

17 Q. And what about the possibility that their documents could not be

18 checked, could that be one of the reasons?

19 A. Yes, it could be one of the reasons. As far as I know, there was

20 no checking done or recording.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have 6D768.

22 Q. You don't have that, do you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Before I ask you about this document, could you tell us what are

25 instructions, orders in the sense of "nalog" and orders to update?

1 A. Well, "nalog" is when somebody's told how to proceed in a

2 particular situation.

3 Q. What about updating?

4 A. Well, that means that somebody's reminded of the obligation they

5 were given earlier.

6 Q. My learned friend Mr. Hannis showed you this document and

7 suggested that Sreten Lukic ordered the SUPs in Kosovo and Metohija to do

8 certain things, jobs, which means he issued instructions or orders

9 suggesting that the police was not performing its job professionally.

10 Now, look at item 1, 2, and 3, what exactly this contains. You don't have

11 to read.

12 A. I don't have this page opened.

13 Q. Could you at least look at 1 and 2? I'll read it for you.

14 "In order to prevent and suppress such occurrences, it is

15 necessary to do the following:

16 "1. Ensure full control over the employees of the ministry every

17 day and demand that they carry out their tasks professionally and

18 responsibly.

19 "2. Vigorously institute criminal misdemeanour and disciplinary

20 proceedings against the perpetrators of such actions proportional to the

21 seriousness and type of act and the manner in which it was carried out.

22 "3. Record any such occurrences and events and report

23 immediately to the ministry staff in Pristina."

24 Are these specific orders in the sense of "nalog" being issued

25 here or is the only thing that's being pointed out the legal obligation

1 that the SUPs have?

2 A. I think what is being pointed out here is the obligation that all

3 members of the secretariat have under the law. I must say again, I wasn't

4 the one who produced this document, but I think it is being highlighted

5 again here to the chiefs because of the situation that prevailed in

6 Kosovo. This type of work needed to be performed on a daily basis.

7 Q. Number 3 says: "Record all such instances and immediately report

8 to the ministry staff in Pristina."

9 What we see being emphasised here, is this not something that the

10 SUPs were already doing in relation to the Ministry of the Interior staff,

11 they were reporting, weren't they?

12 A. Yes, on a daily basis.

13 Q. The last paragraph on page 2, could you please look at

14 that: "Chiefs in the secretariat and commanders of the PJP joint

15 detachment shall be personally responsible for the implementation of the

16 above measures and for preventing such occurrences."

17 Who would normally have been responsible for carrying out these

18 tasks, or rather, did Sreten Lukic change something around in relation to

19 what would normally have been the case?

20 A. A chief of the secretariat is responsible for the tasks and work

21 of his own secretariat in its entirety.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 6D798.

24 Q. These minutes are not complete, and perhaps that's why they were

25 used to explain the substance of the document itself. Let me ask you

1 this: You were at this meeting, weren't you?

2 A. Yes, I was.

3 Q. You say that minutes of meetings taken at the MUP staff for as

4 long as you were a member were taken by Slovic, right? Were those

5 meetings tape recorded or video recorded?

6 A. I don't know that those meetings were recorded in that way.

7 Q. Do you know if Slovic ever made any shorthand notes from these

8 meetings? Was he properly trained to do something like that?

9 A. I don't know. All I know is that he was one of the analysts in

10 that department.

11 Q. Did he simply hand-write whatever was being said at the meeting by

12 just taking handwritten notes?

13 A. I think that was actually the case.

14 Q. My last question, it's about 1D144.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 2, please.

16 Q. This is a decree on ID during a state of war. Do you know if

17 these provisions applied to Kosovo and Metohija or did they apply

18 throughout the territory of the Republic of Serbia?

19 A. This applied throughout the Republic of Serbia.

20 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Vucurevic. I have no further questions

21 for you. Thank you for coming here to testify.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, on

23 cross-examination and re-examination something was raised, of course I'm

24 not entitled to any additional questions but there is a reference there to

25 volunteers based on the MUP report and the evidence that Mr. Lukic has

1 been using. I just want to tell the Chamber that these are volunteers

2 about whom there is already evidence, they were Prosecutor's -- this is

3 5D825 and 5D955 -- P955.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: You can make these submissions in due course,

5 Mr. Bakrac.

6 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Vucurevic, that completes your evidence. Thank

8 you for coming to the Tribunal to give evidence to us. You're now free to

9 leave the courtroom with the usher.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall now take a break and resume at ten

12 minutes to 11.00.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, your next witness.

17 MR. IVETIC: Our next witness is Mr. Radojica Nikcevic, Your

18 Honours.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Nikcevic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

23 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

24 you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

3 You will now be examined by Mr. Ivetic on behalf of Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 WITNESS: RADOJICA NIKCEVIC

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

8 Q. Good day, Mr. Nikcevic. For purposes of the record, could you

9 please identify yourself.

10 A. My name is Radojica Nikcevic. My father's name was Radomir.

11 Q. And could you give us a short biography of yourself, including

12 your educational background.

13 A. I was born in Pec 1965. I resided both in Pec and in a village

14 between Pec and Decani, it's called Dojca Rena [phoen]. I completed my

15 secondary -- my elementary education in Rausic and my secondary education

16 in Pec and the highest school in Gnjilane.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you briefly tell us about your employment within

18 the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic of Serbia.

19 A. I had been with the MUP since 1991, more specifically I was first

20 deployed to Pec and that went on until 1995. In 1995 I was dispatched to

21 the police department that was attached to the Pec SUP, Celopek. In 2002

22 I was re-deployed to the gendarmerie department in Belgrade. I am now in

23 a unit that deals with the special action tactics.

24 Q. I -- am I to understand correctly that you are now an instructor

25 in the unit that deals with special action tactics?

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. Because that didn't make it into the transcript. Now, if we could

3 focus for a moment at the time-period of 1998/1999, what precise posts or

4 positions did you hold in the Serbian MUP at that time?

5 A. An employee of the Pec SUP of the Ministry of the Interior. I am

6 a police member, a policeman. In mid-2002 I joined the PJP. Later on in

7 1999 I joined the OPG, and in 2002 I joined Belgrade's gendarmerie.

8 Q. Just to clarify, sir, the transcript records you as saying in

9 mid-2002 you joined the PJP. Is that date accurate?

10 A. It was in June 2002 the PJP, which used to be the PJM and then

11 later the PJP.

12 Q. Is it 2002 or 1992, sir?

13 A. I permutated, I apologise, 1992.

14 Q. Now, in the course of your employment within the secretariat of

15 interior in Pec, did you know -- and again focusing on the time-period

16 1998 to 1999, did you know of any non-Serbs that were employed by the SUP

17 Pec?

18 A. Yes. There were Muslims there, Roma, and a certain number of

19 Albanians or Siptars. More specifically, in the department where I worked

20 in Celopek, working with me was Zenun Gashi, a Roma, and Samija Ademi, a

21 Siptar.

22 Q. And you've already told us when you became a part of the PJP. Can

23 you tell us the circumstances how you became a part of the PJP?

24 A. I'm not aware of the circumstances. I know I passed a test of

25 physical and mental abilities, and I met the requirements because I was a

1 policeman in the Pec SUP. All members of the PJP who were admitted to the

2 Pec PJP took that test and passed it.

3 Q. Had you been selected by anyone to become a member of the PJP?

4 A. Well, of course I had been recommended by my direct superior, the

5 commander of the Pec police station Besavic Dragan or maybe one of the

6 other officers effected that particular selection.

7 Q. You also mentioned the OPG, could you tell us what that acronym

8 stands for?

9 A. OPG as such, OPG, it exists, existed, since sometime in the

10 1970s. The abbreviation stands for operative pursuit group.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, with respect to the particular OPG that you were

12 a part with, what areas provided members for that OPG and what was the

13 total number of persons, the manpower, of that unit?

14 A. For the most part, those were men -- not for the most part. For

15 the most part those were men who were from the PJP and then were proposed,

16 their names were put forward for additional training that was done with

17 members of the OPG. And in terms of manpower, the Pec SUP numbered ten

18 men together with Klina and Istok, about ten.

19 Q. And could you please tell us what types of assignments you would

20 undertake as a PJP or OPG member?

21 A. As a member of the PJP - and the same thing applies to the OPG -

22 since we were within the PJP we worked on the same kinds of assignments.

23 For the most part these had to do with upholding public law and order. To

24 a high extent it was about that. We provided security for various

25 sports -- sporting events. We maintained check-points. Those were our

1 assignments.

2 Q. The membership of the PJP company in Pec, were those all

3 policemen?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When you would not be engaged as part of the PJP or OPG for

6 specific assignments, what jobs did you then undertake when not engaged in

7 the PJP/OPG?

8 A. Our regular jobs, mine was with the police department in Celopek

9 and the others worked in the Pec police station, working within the

10 sector, patrolling sector check-points, that sort of thing.

11 Q. Could you tell us who was Vidomir Salipur and what eventually

12 happened to him?

13 A. Vidomir Salipur was a policeman of the Pec police station. He was

14 killed sometime in 1999 on the 8th of April, in the village of Radovac in

15 a vehicle in which he was moving from Pec to Rozaje. He was hit by a

16 hand-held launcher and another member who was in a different vehicle was

17 wounded on the occasion.

18 Q. How many PJP units were within the SUP Pec? What was the

19 structure?

20 A. The structure was as follows: Two platoons in Pec and one each in

21 Klina and Istok. At the outset, the Djakovica SUP had a platoon which

22 makes up a total of five. Later Djakovica SUP splinted off from the Pec

23 SUP, and instead of the Djakovica platoon, the traffic police platoon was

24 now attached to it.

25 Q. During the time-periods when you were not called up nor engaged as

1 part of the PJP or OPG, who were your superiors within the SUP Pec?

2 A. My direct superior was Dragan Kerseljevic, the commander of the

3 police station; later on when I moved to the Celopek police department,

4 the police department commander Milos Krstic and his deputy Esad Hasic.

5 Q. Now when you were operating as part of the PJP, who were your

6 superior officers at that time?

7 A. At the outset the company commander was Radomir Colic; his deputy,

8 Dragan Kerseljevic; the platoon commander, Dragan Djukic; and the

9 department or squad commander, Miomir Jovanovic. In mid-1998, I mean I

10 would like to say that Dragan Kerseljevic when this was splinted off from

11 the Djakovica and Pec SUP became the company commander. His deputy was

12 Srdjan Perovic. The platoon commander remained the same and Joksovic Sasa

13 now became the squad commander. And when Captain Perovic was killed in

14 Lodza and commander Kerseljevic was wounded and platoon Commander Djukic

15 was killed, some changes were introduced to the command structure. Krsto

16 Djuricic now became company commander, his deputy was Dragan Stojkovic,

17 and the platoon commander was Vidomir Salipur.

18 Q. When you operated as part of the OPG, who were your superior

19 officers at that time?

20 A. My immediate superior was the company commander at that time,

21 Djuricic.

22 Q. And what differences were there between the PJP and the OPG?

23 A. I don't see any difference between these two formations except

24 that the OPG had somewhat more training than the members of the PJP.

25 Also, there was specialised training in the OPG. Just one more thing, if

1 I may change something. Here I said Stojkovic Dragan I think previously,

2 and it's not Dragan, it's Nenad Stojkovic.

3 Q. Thank you. As far as the PJP and the OPG are concerned, was there

4 any difference in pay between those that were just PJP and those that were

5 PJP as well as OPG?

6 A. No, no. There was no difference. Everything was the same except,

7 as I've said, the difference is that members of the OPG underwent more

8 training.

9 Q. Could you tell us what the numerical strength was of your PJP

10 company?

11 A. Around 80 men.

12 Q. Could you tell us, if you remember, in 1999 what radio call-signs

13 did the PJP from Pec utilise?

14 A. Call-signs, as for where I was, the 1st Platoon, it was Grom; for

15 the 5th Platoon, I mean this other one that was there in the SUP of Pec

16 was mine. When the platoon commander Djukic got killed, the call-sign

17 Grom was one that we no longer used. Then the entire group of the 1st and

18 5th Platoon took over the call-sign Munja.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: That is possibly what the

20 speaker said a few moments ago but we did not hear him well.

21 MR. IVETIC: I guess with the interpreter's comments I should ask

22 the witness to repeat the call-signs sitting closer to the microphone.

23 Could you re --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before -- yeah, you better do that.

25 MR. IVETIC:

1 Q. Could you repeat what both call-signs were that you mentioned a

2 few moments ago in answering my question, as the interpreters did not

3 catch the -- just repeat the two call-signs that you mentioned.

4 A. The call-sign was Grom and there was the call-sign Munja.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you now tell us something about the training that

6 you underwent when you became a member of the OPG?

7 A. I do not remember every detail of what it was that we went through

8 during training, but training was primarily psychological and physical

9 resilience, tactics, we also had target practice. That would be about it.

10 Q. Could you please tell us where that training for the OPG took

11 place.

12 A. At Mount Goc.

13 Q. And for those of us that are not familiar with the geography,

14 could you tell us, is Goc within or outside the territory of Kosovo and

15 Metohija?

16 A. Goc is near Kraljevo, outside the territory of Kosovo and

17 Metohija.

18 Q. And who else was in your training group, what SUPs were

19 represented at this training at the Goc mountain?

20 A. I'm not sure, but I think that at the time when I was there for

21 training in the month of December 1998 that the other members were from

22 the territory of Kosovo, that is to say the SUPs from Kosovo, Pristina,

23 Mitrovica, Gnjilane, Urosevac, Prizren, Djakovica, and Pec.

24 Q. Thank you. And could you tell us who led the training for -- the

25 training at this facility at Goc?

1 A. Goran Radosavljevic led the training.

2 Q. And could you tell us if you remember who some of the other

3 instructors were for this OPG training that you underwent?

4 A. The instructors were from the MUP. I didn't know them. We

5 addressed them as Mr. Instructor. I know after we got out I got to know

6 Radomir Djeric, who I saw at the gendarmerie, he was one of them.

7 Q. Do you recall some of the specific themes that were covered as

8 part of the training course?

9 A. For the most part, it was reconnaissance and observation, movement

10 on the ground, using tear gas, break and entry into premises, placing

11 check-points, or rather, barriers to stop vehicles and persons on a road.

12 Q. Were there any theoretical courses also covered as part of the

13 training?

14 A. Yes. Before we would do practical work, the theoretical part

15 would be presented to us as to what it was we were doing, what the subject

16 was.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm just waiting for the transcript to catch up

18 with us.

19 Now, could you tell us upon completion of your OPG training what

20 did you do immediately upon returning from this training?

21 A. Regular work at the police station, or rather, I was attached or

22 returned to the Celopek police station.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, focusing on the policemen of the SUP Pec, what

24 were the types of fire-arms issued to all policemen and what different

25 fire-arms were there for members of the PJP?

1 A. Policemen were personally issued with a pistol CZ-99 and an

2 automatic rifle respectively, M70 AB2. The same -- or actually, as

3 members of the police we had TT's. First it was the members of the PJP

4 that got CZ-99s and then subsequently other members of the SUPs replaced

5 their pistols, their TT pistols, with the CZ-99.

6 Q. Were there any additional fire-arms or weapons that were available

7 to the PJ -- to the police officers who were called up as part of the PJP?

8 A. Yes. Individuals were issued with something, or rather, the

9 company was issued with a sniper rifle.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the exact

11 reference.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And a PHT, 7.62-millimetres.

13 MR. IVETIC:

14 Q. Did you make a reference to a particular type of sniper rifle?

15 The interpreters state that they did not hear the reference after sniper

16 rifle.

17 A. A classical rifle that was used in the army and police in the

18 then-Yugoslavia, present-day Serbia.

19 Q. What uniforms were worn by the police of the SUP in Pec in 1998

20 and 1999?

21 A. Policemen wore regular uniforms, that is to say a blue jacket,

22 navy blue, dark blue; then a light blue shirt with epaulettes; trousers

23 that were navy blue; shoes; and a black leather belt with additional

24 attachments.

25 Q. And what uniforms did the members of the PJP wear?

1 A. Members of the PJP wore multi-coloured navy blue jackets, shirts,

2 trousers, and boots on their feet.

3 Q. And during what time-period was that uniform of the PJP?

4 A. Well, the period is mid-1998, something like that.

5 Q. And how did the PJP uniform change at that point in time? What

6 was the new PJP uniform?

7 A. Olive-green-grey, green, the same thing as a set except that it

8 was olive-green-grey, and also I added there was a belt with accessories,

9 with an extension.

10 Q. Were there any emblems or insignia on the PJP uniform?

11 A. Yes. On the sleeve we would have a shield with the tri-colour

12 flag and letters saying the police. That's on the left sleeve. On the

13 right sleeve PJP insignia.

14 Q. Did you have occasion to wear any vests; and if so, how were those

15 marked?

16 A. Vests were used in action, they were also olive-green-grey. On

17 the back it said "police" and on the front on the right-hand pocket. Also

18 there were accessories on them for the necessary equipment.

19 Q. And if you could tell us how visible were these markings, that is

20 to say from how far away approximately could they be noted and

21 distinguished?

22 A. It depended on whether it was day-time or night-time. In day-time

23 the visibility was 100 metres because the letters were white, so it was

24 noticeable.

25 Q. Thank you. And did any members of your PJP unit wear any

1 non-standard uniforms different from anybody else?

2 A. No. The principle of uniformity was highly respected.

3 Q. Did you have occasion to wear ribbons on the uniforms; and if so,

4 what was the purpose?

5 A. I remember that we wore ribbons twice, once -- I mean in two

6 periods. After Perovic was caught in July, Captain Perovic, in Lodza, the

7 terrorists wore police uniforms and that's how they tricked him and

8 arrested him. From then onwards I know that we wore ribbons. I think --

9 well, it's not that I think, it's the way it should be. They were white,

10 yellow, and red.

11 Q. And could you tell us in what --

12 A. And in the second period --

13 Q. Wait a second, please. First of all, dealing with the first

14 period that you've just described after Perovic was caught in July. What

15 year was that during?

16 A. 1998, the month of July, the 7th of July.

17 Q. Thank you. Now could you go on to the second time-period when

18 ribbons were used along with the uniforms. When was that?

19 A. I know that the action was in Rugova, that's when we wore them,

20 that is to say around the 15th, around the 15th.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please be

22 asked to come closer to the microphone.

23 MR. IVETIC:

24 Q. Sir, could you get closer to the microphone. The interpreters are

25 having a hard time for you -- hearing you. And first of all, what year

1 was this second time-period and -- the second time-period where I believe

2 you said the 15th of April?

3 A. 1999.

4 Q. And do you recall what type of ribbons were used during this

5 time-period?

6 A. Yellow, blue, and red.

7 Q. During 1999 -- well, first of all, I want to ask you about an

8 individual named Nebojsa Minic. Was he a member of the Pec secretariat in

9 1999?

10 A. No. I don't know exactly how much time he spent with us. I

11 know -- well, about two months, August and perhaps September; and then he

12 smashed up a kiosk in a street in Pec, and since then I've never seen him.

13 Q. And when you say he wasn't in the police, was he -- was he let go

14 out of the police force?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to focus for a time-period on the KLA.

17 Did you have occasion to hear any public pronouncements by representatives

18 of the KLA prior to 1999; and if so, what precisely did you hear, when did

19 you hear it, and who was with you when you heard it?

20 A. I saw Adem Demaqi in his family, or rather, in the family home of

21 Gashi Zenun. Policeman Jankovic was with me. The three of us were

22 sitting in a room and a statement was on TV Tirana to the effect that

23 Kosovo cannot be freed at all or cleansed at all from the Serbs unless the

24 international community is provoked so that all the Siptars would leave

25 the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, and then by displaying a

1 humanitarian catastrophe the world would react and their objectives would

2 be accomplished. I remember that because Gashi Zenun and Jankovic

3 Radojica were making comments about that. And right now we see what the

4 situation is in fact.

5 Q. Thank you. If we can move on. Did you ever eye-witness any KLA

6 tactics with regards to civilians?

7 A. KLA tactics boiled down to the following. They would provoke an

8 incident, cause an incident, then they would seek shelter in villages

9 where there were civilians, and in this way they would show the people

10 that the police was carrying out repression against them. I had this one

11 particular case while I worked at the Celopek police department. A person

12 by the name of Kelmendi from the village of Kosuric reported that he had

13 been mistreated in his family home by the members of the KLA, that is. We

14 went to the actual site, to his home, and as we took statements from his

15 family they told us that they had set out in the direction of the village

16 of Glodjane. The patrol went to the village of Glodjane, to be more

17 precise they went to the church within the village itself. We parked our

18 vehicle, and at that moment a Mercedes came by, four persons ran out of it

19 and opened fire at us. We could not open fire because behind them there

20 were civilians who were working in the fields. On that occasion a

21 policeman was wounded.

22 Q. What was the KLA's practice with respect to uniforms?

23 A. As I said, about the Lodz village, some 15 of them were wearing

24 the police uniform because at that time it was possible to get hold of

25 police uniforms, just buy them. But for the most part they discarded

1 their own uniforms.

2 Q. And what was the KLA practice with respect to their own

3 casualties, as you witnessed?

4 A. In many, many cases they carried their own wounded and dead away,

5 they didn't leave them behind.

6 Q. Now focusing on your own family, did any of your family members or

7 relatives endure attacks by the KLA in 1998 and 1999?

8 A. Yes. In 1998 early in July, maybe the 2nd or 3rd of July, we left

9 our family home in our village precisely because of that and we moved to a

10 suburb of Pec. That last incident that happened to my family and myself

11 happened, although prior to that we had good neighbourly relations with

12 the surrounding families, three of our Albanian neighbours came with a

13 tractor to do our fields so that we would not be exposed by working

14 outside. They expected that no one would open fire on them; however, on

15 that day fire was opened on them from the direction of Streoc village.

16 And the next day we moved out. Our family was not the only one to leave,

17 the Paunovic family, Jokic, Vukovic families and the Drmanovics and

18 Vujisics from Zlopek village also left and it turned out to have been a

19 good idea because that same night Lakos Paunovic was kidnapped and to this

20 day no one knows what happened to him. Before that they also kidnapped

21 three of my neighbours.

22 Q. Who were those neighbours and what ethnicity were they?

23 A. Zeko Gutic was an employee of EPS.

24 THE INTERPRETER: If the interpreter heard correctly.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a Muslim. Vucic Vukovic was

1 from Dugocak village very near to mine. And Vuk Vujisic, a child of 15.

2 Nothing is known of their fate either, except that according to some

3 information Vesel Dizdari who was Vukovic's family kum kidnapped them when

4 they were passing by his house and saying hello.

5 MR. IVETIC:

6 Q. Do you know of any specific instances where the KLA targeted

7 ethnic Albanians and your home village?

8 A. I don't understand your question.

9 Q. Apart from the information you've already gave us about

10 Mr. Kelmendi, do you know of any other instances where the KLA targeted

11 ethnic Albanians in your home village?

12 A. I don't know about my village --

13 Q. The area around [Previous translation continues]... village.

14 A. Right. Zenun Gashi a policeman, according to a report made by his

15 wife, was visited at his home by some men. They raped the wife and his

16 daughter aged 12, they took him out to the terrace of the house, beat and

17 abused him, and later took him away. He used to live in Kosuric village.

18 The only reason why they did that was that he had not left the police

19 force.

20 Samija Ademi, another man I used to work with, was involved in an

21 incident at the police station in Celopek when policeman Dragan Bilanovic

22 was killed. He escaped through the woods. He used to work in Celopek

23 police station and lived in Zlopek village some 15 kilometres away.

24 During the night he went to his home, and later I heard that he got away,

25 went abroad, to Switzerland to join his brother.

1 Q. And do you know of any incident involving a Gani Shari?

2 A. Gani Shala, is that the man you mean, from Rausic. He had a shop

3 in his own village. Someone fired three or four shells at his house and

4 fired at it with infantry weapons just because the police used to buy

5 things from his shop. And we tried to avoid meeting with our neighbours

6 in our own villages to spare those neighbours later being accused of being

7 spies and to spare them from repressions by KLA members.

8 Q. Did any members of your unit die in the course of 1998 and 1999 in

9 Kosovo-Metohija due to attacks of the KLA; and if so, how many?

10 A. Many of them were killed. I don't know the exact number, but 24

11 perhaps.

12 Q. And would that be approximately 24 out of the total 80 that you

13 testified earlier had been part of your unit?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know how many persons were wounded within your unit during

16 the same time-period in fighting with the KLA?

17 A. Many more were wounded, up to 40, around 40, perhaps even more.

18 Q. If we could now focus on the time-period in 1998 following the

19 October agreements with the OSCE and onwards, what kind of work did your

20 PJP unit in Pec undertake at that time after the OSCE mission came to

21 Kosovo?

22 A. As the OSCE arrived to Kosovo, I was doing my regular police work

23 in the police station in Celopek, save for the incident in Racak, when an

24 attempt was made to apprehend the group located in that place.

25 Q. How did the members of the KLA act after the withdrawal and

1 reduction of the MUP from Kosovo and Metohija pursuant to the agreement

2 with the OSCE?

3 A. Would you say that again.

4 Q. How did the members of the KLA act following the withdrawal of MUP

5 pursuant to the October accords and the arrival of the OSCE?

6 A. The KLA started with provocations in towns. They moved from

7 villages to towns.

8 Q. And did their --

9 A. In Pec where I was, there was the incident of the Panda cafe,

10 where six children were killed. Then there was this bomb or hand-grenade

11 thrown onto another cafe called Slavica. No one got killed but people

12 were wounded. So their method was to go in small groups and perpetrate

13 acts of revenge also against Albanians who socialised with Serbs or

14 perhaps even employees of the police as well as against Serbs and others.

15 Q. All right. If we could now move along to the time-period of the

16 NATO bombings. Do you have knowledge of any specific NATO attacks on the

17 territory where you were carrying out your duties and what they hit?

18 A. Pec was hit when bombs fell on the barracks of the VJ, which is

19 between a suburb called Brezanik and another one Karagac was targeted,

20 Brezanik, Bijelo Polje, Zagrevanje [phoen], Rugova, Barane, Krusevac, and

21 even one cluster bomb fell close to my house, killing a little girl who

22 was working with her parents making haystacks. She was wounded, injured.

23 I saw her later at the hospital.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether it's killed

25 or injured.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was also Savine Vode, where a

2 bus was moving from Djakovica towards Rozaje in Montenegro.

3 MR. IVETIC:

4 Q. During the time-period of the NATO air war, what were relations

5 like between the police and civilians?

6 A. The relations between the police and civilians was the same as

7 before; it's just that now the police were trying to put civilians under

8 cover when bombing was expected. The police expected that the post office

9 in the centre would be targeted, so as soon as the alert siren was sounded

10 civilians ran for cover -- although, in fact the air-strikes were more or

11 less continuous.

12 Q. What were the instructions that you received from your superior

13 officers within the MUP regarding treatment of civilians when engaged as

14 part of the PJP?

15 A. Before each and every action we were told very clearly to treat

16 civilians with -- in keeping with the highest professional standards, and

17 the same applied to any wounded persons and anyone arrested. They had to

18 be treated professionally and in keeping with all the laws of the Republic

19 of Yugoslavia.

20 Q. Did members of your unit ever receive any orders from superiors

21 within the MUP to the effect of undertaking to rob or forcibly evict

22 civilians of ethnic Albanian nationality out of Kosovo and Metohija?

23 A. No, never.

24 Q. During the time-period of the NATO war, what did the Pec

25 secretariat of the interior do to try and prevent crimes and uphold public

1 law and order across the territory that it served?

2 A. I used to see police officers in Pec, both in mufti and in

3 uniform, especially in the evenings because there was no street lighting

4 due to air-strikes, and crime incidence was increased. They were working

5 trying to detect and apprehend perpetrators of criminal acts.

6 Q. Did you ever eye-witness any incidents where a policeman from your

7 unit engaged in any criminal act against a civilian during the course of

8 his duties?

9 A. No. There was this one case that I mentioned before when Minic

10 smashed up a kiosk, but he was removed from the service immediately.

11 Q. Do you know any police officer by the name of Zoran Djuricic from

12 Decani?

13 A. Yes, but Zoran Djuricic only worked in Decani, otherwise he hails

14 from Papic village.

15 Q. Did you have occasion to see him engaged as a member of the PJP at

16 any time during 1999 in the course of any action?

17 A. I think he was not in the PJP at all. I never saw him because

18 they belong to the PJP of Djakovica and I never saw him with that outfit.

19 When I saw him, it was at a check-point when he was working in Decani.

20 Q. And do you perhaps know a Vule Mircic of the Decani OUP?

21 A. Yes, he was the chief at the department of internal affairs in

22 Decani. I never saw him in the field either, but I know him because I

23 used to live there and I came frequently -- I went frequently to Decani.

24 Q. I'd just like to take a few moments to go through an exhibit and

25 see if we can highlight some points that you might have some personal

1 knowledge or information on. If we could have Exhibit 6D614 up on the

2 screen, and the first item I would like to ask you about is at page 519 of

3 the same, item number -- item number 10.

4 Now, sir, could you first, so that everyone knows what we're

5 talking about here, could you first read the first two sentences of this

6 entry in this overview and tell us if you have any personal knowledge of

7 the same. If you could perhaps zoom in on item number 10, the second from

8 the bottom on the page, that might make it easier.

9 A. "On the 5th of July, 1998, Rados Paunovic from Rausic village left

10 Pec to go to his home and property in Rausic village when he was kidnapped

11 by armed members of the KLA."

12 Q. And --

13 A. I know this person. We used to be neighbours. I talked about him

14 before and I mentioned his nickname, Lakos Paunovic.

15 Q. So is this the incident you told us about earlier when you and

16 your family had to leave the village with several other families and this

17 individual was kidnapped?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. And if you could just briefly read for us the remainder of that

20 section and highlight for us the perpetrators of the crime against whom

21 charges were filed.

22 A. "An investigation of the crime scene was carried out for safety

23 reasons.

24 "Criminal complaint KU 391/99 was filed against unknown

25 perpetrators as well as an amendment to the complaint. Both of the

1 documents were lodged with the district public prosecutor's office in

2 Pec. This crime of terrorism was committed by Krasniqi Meto, Krasniqi

3 Dino, Dizdari Vesel, Sakaj Resat, Krasniqi Cuf, Krasniqi Iber, Krasniqi

4 Devad, Krasniqi Dzafer, and Krasniqi Avni. All of them lived in Pec

5 municipality."

6 I would like to point out this: With the exception of Dizdari

7 Vesel, they are all from the village of Vranoc to the extent that I can

8 tell.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, could you find a suitable place to

10 interrupt, please?

11 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. Let me just ask one more question

12 about this point so we can finish up this point.

13 Q. Do you personally know these individuals that you say are from the

14 village of Vranoc?

15 A. Yes. Meto Krasniqi was the owner of a cafe in Pec, his cousin was

16 killed in 1997 during the attack on the Ozrim police squad. In 1996 I was

17 with the Celopek police squad, on the 28th of August when an attack

18 occurred. That was when these attacks first started, attacks on police

19 squads. At first he was a suspect, but later it became clear that he had

20 been involved in the attack.

21 Q. Thank you, sir. Your --

22 A. My apologies. As for Veselj Dizdari, as I mentioned before --

23 Meto Krasniqi, he was killed after the war because he had committed a

24 number of different crimes in the area, specifically in and around Pec,

25 Decani, and Djakovica. He was the leader of a group known as Crna Ruka,

1 the black arm -- the Black Hand. Veselj Dizdari is a neighbour of mine

2 and he is also the "kum" of Vukovic Vucic. I believe I mentioned him in

3 relation to the kidnapping.

4 Q. And just lastly, this group, Crna Ruka, were they -- what

5 ethnicity were they?

6 A. They were all Albanians, Siptars, at least as far as I know. I

7 had friends over there who were Siptars and based on what they told me I

8 learned that Meto Krasniqi who was passing himself off as a great friend

9 of mine was actually leader of that group.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we could have the break now.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

13 Mr. Nikcevic, we will have to break at this stage for half an hour

14 or so; while we have that break, could you please leave the courtroom with

15 the usher.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall resume at five minutes to 1.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

20 [The witness takes the stand]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Nikcevic, just to finish off the area -- the point that we had

24 before the break before moving on. Meto Krasniqi, you said he was killed

25 after the war because he had committed a number of different crimes in the

1 area. Do you know whom he was killed by, if you know?

2 I'm told there was a problem with the translation. I'll try this

3 microphone. To finish up the area that we started before the break, you

4 mentioned that Meto Krasniqi was killed after the war because he had

5 committed a number of different crimes in the area. If you know, could

6 you tell us whom he was killed by, that's if you know.

7 A. I know about what happened in Streoc about this Albanian lady

8 whose name I can't remember.

9 Q. I think there's still a problem -- I'm asking specifically about

10 the killing of Meto Krasniqi. Do you know whom he was killed by after the

11 war; if you don't, just say so and we'll move on.

12 A. There's this friend who told me that a man from Streoc had killed

13 him whose daughter Meto had previously raped. I think his last name was

14 Strefaja [phoen] but I'm not certain.

15 Q. Would that have been an ethnic Albanian or another ethnicity

16 surname?

17 A. No, no, an Albanian.

18 Q. Thank you, sir. If we can move on to page 590 of this exhibit and

19 item number 96 there from Krusevac, Pec, July 1998. I'll wait for it to

20 come up on the screen. One moment. This doesn't appear to be the --

21 there we go. Now it's up. I believe this part does not have a

22 translation, that might be the confusion. We're getting number 96 from a

23 prior section on the right-hand side of the e-court. For purposes of

24 having everyone able to understand what we're talking about, sir, could

25 you read item number 96 in its entirety and then tell us if you have

1 any -- if you know any of the persons involved in the event that's

2 depicted. A. "Between July and September 1998, several times members

3 of the KLA carried out terrorist attacks on homes, property of Radomila

4 Boskovic from Pec, Krusevac village, Pec municipality. For this reason

5 she had no choice but to move out with her family. After that, members of

6 the KLA took away from the house all movable property and set fire to the

7 house itself. No on-site investigation was carried out because of

8 security concerns. A criminal complaint was filed against unknown

9 perpetrators and served on the public prosecutor's office in Pec."

10 Q. Do you know the persons involved and do you have a personal

11 recollection of the incident that is depicted?

12 A. I knew Radomila Boskovic, I worked in the area and the Celopek

13 squad covered Krusevac village as well. The entire Serb population of

14 those villages, such as Krusevac, Dubocak, Rausic, Brolic, Rosulje, and

15 Glodjane left their homes. Some later stayed in Pec and some left for

16 Serbia or Montenegro.

17 Q. Thank you. If we could move -- it should be 18 pages further in

18 e-court, page 608 of the B/C/S original, item number 183, that's at the

19 bottom of the page, going to the top of the next page. That should be

20 page 608, 183 is the item number or the entry number I guess I should

21 say. It should be page 608, I'm told this is page 683. We should have

22 page 608 and that should only be in the Serbian original. This one is one

23 of the sections that's still being subject of translation.

24 There we go, at the bottom of this page, and since we don't have a

25 translation of this handy, if you could, please, for us, sir, read entry

1 number 183 and when you're done with this page have us -- tell us so we

2 can turn to the next page where it's continued this incident on the 7th of

3 September, 1998, in Dubocak, Pec, item number 183. If we could read that

4 for us, sir, first.

5 A. "Between the 31st of May and the 7th of September 1998 on several

6 occasions, members of the KLA carried out terrorist attacks on Aleksa

7 Stankovic's house, also known as Stankovic Leko, from Dubocak village, Pec

8 municipality, and for this reason he had no choice but to move out with

9 his family."

10 I know this person.

11 Q. If we could first off go to the -- well, why don't we do it this

12 way. Do you recall the individual and do you recall the incident? Did

13 you have a personal role in this, could you tell us what that was.

14 A. I talked about incidents when Jovanovic was killed that same month

15 in Celopek, and after that a group set off for Krusevac village in order

16 to fire at Serb homes in Krusevac, Dubocak, so that they had no choice but

17 to leave their homes. There is the example of Milovan Milosevic, there

18 was a person who escaped from their car when they opened fired on them.

19 He ran to his house and they killed him right outside the house.

20 As for Stankovic, they were 3 or 4 kilometres away from the main

21 road and the centre of Krusevac village. They didn't know what the facts

22 were on the ground and what was going on along that ground and near any of

23 the other homes. For that reason they stayed the entire day. During the

24 night Stankovic and his son Ljubisa joined me on the way out of Gorazde

25 [as interpreted]. We took a path through the woods in order to reach

1 their home, and we managed to evacuate Leka and his family, his wife and

2 two sons who were still in the house.

3 Q. And what happened to the house afterwards, what did the KLA do to

4 it?

5 A. They destroyed all those houses. I saw a satellite image because

6 this technology is available for actually getting a good look, and I

7 realized when I looked at this image that none of the houses remained in

8 the area covered by those 20 villages or thereabouts.

9 Q. Nine pages forward to page 617 --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Just to be clear about the detail of that. There's

11 a reference at line 24 to during the night Stankovic and his son Ljubisa

12 joined me on the way out of Gorazde. Then the next line: "We managed to

13 evacuate Leka and his family." Is Stankovic not Leka? Are they not the

14 same person?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

16 JUDGE BONOMY: No.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's his eldest son, not from

18 Gorazde village but from Gorazdovce village near Pec. I think it was a

19 case of misinterpretation. I was with his eldest son from Pec. After

20 this incident, after what happened to us in Krusevac we from the police

21 came to Pec and locals from the area started reporting everything that had

22 been happening to them that day.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a second. I'm just trying to be clear about

24 the -- when you went through the woods, was there one person with you or

25 two people?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stankovic Ljubisa, Ljubo.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: So one person, and it was the father that you

3 actually evacuated with his family?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We reached their house. Stankovic

5 Aleksa, Leka. In the house we find him, his wife, and their two sons; the

6 third is with me, the one who had arrived with me.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: I -- the position is now clear. Thank you.

8 Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. We were to be moving to -- just one moment. Nine pages forward to

11 page 617, item number 224 on the bottom, and this one as well -- which we

12 do -- no, that's the B/C/S. We don't have the English of that. If we

13 could have you -- first of all, is this -- let's -- no, we'll just have

14 you read it. It's only, well, seven lines or so. If you could read the

15 entry number 224 and tell us if you have any personal knowledge or

16 awareness of this incident that is depicted here.

17 A. "Between the 29th March and the 24th of September, 1998, on

18 several occasions members of the KLA carried out terrorist attacks on the

19 house of Desanka Paunovic from Rausic -- Novi Rausic village, Pec

20 municipality. For this reason she had no choice but to leave with her

21 family. After that members of the KLA took away all the movable property

22 that was in the house and set fire to the house itself."

23 Q. And -- go ahead. Finish the last two sections.

24 A. "Investigating judge authorised officials of the secretariat of

25 the interior in Pec to carry out an investigation. Criminal complaint KU

1 572/98 was filed against unknown perpetrators and was delivered to the

2 district public prosecutor's office."

3 Q. Do you know any of the persons involved and do you have a personal

4 knowledge about the events that are depicted here?

5 A. Yes. She is the daughter, sister-in-law, Paunovic --

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the name.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who I said had been kidnapped after

8 we left. Desanka Paunovic left Pec together with my family and went to

9 Serbia later on.

10 MR. IVETIC:

11 Q. Thank you. If we could move approximately 13 pages forward to

12 page 630, item number 286. It's at the bottom of the page, sir. Could

13 you read this entry for Glodjane, Pec, the 1st of November, 1998, and

14 could you tell us if you have any personal knowledge or any additional

15 facts to provide relating to this event depicted here.

16 A. "On the 1st of November, 1998, at about 1330 hours, members of

17 the KLA carried out a terrorist attack against members of the Ministry of

18 the Interior in Glodjane village near Pec. During the attack Drasko

19 Stosic, a policeman from the secretariat of interior of Pec sustained

20 slight physical injuries. No on-site investigation was carried out for

21 security concerns. As I pointed out before, what happened. A person from

22 Kosuric reported mistreatment, having been mistreated, and then we were

23 off to Glodjane village. Once the complaint had been lodged. As soon as

24 we had arrived outside the church in Glodjane, a vehicle showed up from

25 the direction of Nepolje and discoursed four persons who immediately

1 opened fire on our vehicle and the men in it. We were unable to fire back

2 because there were two women and a man right there in the field or on a

3 meadow. They then went Jablanica. They drove past the houses there and

4 they used a hand-held launcher to fire a missile. They hit something that

5 was just off the road, but a piece of shrapnel hit Drasko Stosic."

6 Q. Okay. If we could move ahead eight pages to page 638, item number

7 321 on the overview entitled: "Rausic, Pec, 25th November 1998." Could

8 you read for us this entry and tell us if this is one of the events that

9 you have offered your testimony on here today relating to KLA activities

10 against ethnic Albanians.

11 A. That's right.

12 "On the 25th of November, 1998, according to the report submitted

13 by the injured party Gashi Ganija, a civilian, members of the KLA carried

14 out an attack with four shells and they shot from automatic weapons at the

15 village of Rausic because the villagers of the said village handed over

16 weapons to the police. Members of the OSCE mission were informed about

17 the incident."

18 Q. Do you have any other further knowledge or details to provide

19 about this event?

20 A. I was present, as I've already pointed out, during the on-site

21 investigation because at that time I was in the Celopek police

22 department. I know Gashi Ganija because we did some shopping at his shop.

23 We bought things that we needed at home, and also when we were in the

24 area we would stop by, we would stop at his store. It is for that reason

25 that they were warning him that he should not let us into his store.

1 Q. Thank you. If we go on, page 681, item 504. I believe this might

2 also be an event that you have offered your testimony on. Could you,

3 since we don't have a translation of this either, could you briefly read

4 for us this incident and tell us if indeed it is one that you have made

5 reference to and what other personal details you can provide based on your

6 recollections of the same.

7 A. 504 you said?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. "On the 5th of March, on the 5th of March, 1999, around 2015 hours

10 in the street of the Army of Yugoslavia number 73, members of the KLA

11 carried out a terrorist attack against the Slavica catering facility by

12 throwing a hand-grenade through the shop window. Due to the explosion of

13 the hand-grenade in the store, grievous bodily injuries were sustained by

14 Dejan Mijatovic, Bogicevic Dejan, and Kovacevic Milivoje, all of them from

15 Pec; and light bodily injuries were sustained by Mitrovic Ivica, Markovic

16 Slavica, and Bogicevic Zelimir. Markovic Slavica is the owner of this

17 store. The on-site investigation was carried out by the investigating

18 judge of the district court from Pec in the presence of members of the

19 verification mission of the OSCE. A criminal complaint was filed."

20 Q. And is this the incident of the Slavica a soldier that you had

21 previously identified?

22 A. That's right. I've already mentioned that. I stopped at that

23 shop and I know the persons there, I know the owner and other people.

24 Q. If we could move ahead three pages to page 684, item number 515.

25 Could you read for the record this item for Zlopek, Pec, the 9th of March,

1 1999, and tell us if you can provide any additional details based on your

2 personal knowledge and information relating to the event that is set forth

3 here.

4 A. "On the 9th of March, 1999, around 6.30, Kocan Hashim [phoen] set

5 out from the village of Zlopek on a bicycle in the direction of Pec where

6 he had worked. A kilometre away from his house in the village of Zlopek,

7 the injured party was abducted by armed members of the KLA and they took

8 him in an unknown direction. His fate is unknown. An on-site

9 investigation was not carried out for security reasons. A criminal

10 complaint was filed KU 136/99 against perpetrators unknown and submitted

11 to the district public prosecutor's office in Pec."

12 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge or details to supplement what

13 is set forth herein relating to this event?

14 A. His wife happened to see me in Pec. I knew Hashim personally. He

15 lived in Zlopek. That is near me, about a kilometre away. And when she

16 and I were talking she asked me and said, Let us try to do whatever can be

17 done in order to find him. Since she hadn't heard from him and she told

18 me all about it, what happened. That's what I know.

19 Q. Was this individual ever located?

20 A. To the best of my knowledge, he was never found.

21 Q. One more item I'd like to look at on this overview, page 710, item

22 number 631.

23 A. "On the 8th of April, 1999, in the village of Ozrim members of the

24 KLA carried out a terrorist attack against the patrol of the Ozrim police

25 department. A policeman Esad Hasic sustained light injuries during this

1 attack. On authority given by an investigating judge an on-site

2 investigation was carried out by policemen of the secretariat of the

3 interior of Pec. A criminal complaint KU 210/99 was filed against

4 perpetrators unknown and submitted to the district public prosecutor's

5 office Pec."

6 I mentioned Esad Hasic, he was my deputy commander of my police

7 squad in Celopek. I worked with him in 1998 I think. It was the

8 beginning of 1998 or the end of 1997. That's when he started working at

9 the Ozrim police department. After leaving Kosovo we met up at the place

10 where he lives now. He said to me that his father and his step-mother had

11 been killed.

12 Q. Who killed his father and his step-mother, according to what he

13 said?

14 A. After we left Kosovo they were killed by the Siptars -- well, not

15 Siptars, this group that was killing around Pec, a Siptar group that was

16 called the Black Hand.

17 Q. And what ethnicity was Esad Hasic and his father and step-mother?

18 A. Muslim, but the only reason was because he had worked in the

19 police.

20 Q. Okay. Now, sir -- actually, while we have this on the screen I

21 just realized, if we look at item number 632, Radovac, Pec, the 8th of

22 April, 1999, is this the incident wherein Vidomir Salipur was killed?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, just to finish up a few points that I have left. We

25 previously talked about a Minic Nebojsa and you said he had been in the

1 police for two months before being let out. Was he an active or a reserve

2 member of the SUP Pec during that two-month period when he was on duty

3 with the SUP Pec?

4 A. Nebojsa Minic was from the reserve police. Since we had sustained

5 big losses in our unit and we had a large number of wounded people, then

6 the reserve police force was drawn upon.

7 Q. Thank you. And in your testimony you had mentioned the M-70 rifle

8 that all policemen in the SUP Pec were issued with. I don't know if you

9 said it, but in the transcript it does not refer to the calibre. Could

10 you tell us what the calibre that automatic rifle issued to the policemen

11 of the SUP Pec would have been?

12 A. I omitted to mention the calibre. The calibre was

13 7.62-millimetres.

14 Q. Thank you. And during the break I also looked back at the

15 transcript and saw that I forgot to ask you how long did your training for

16 the OPG take place?

17 A. 15-day training.

18 Q. And lastly, as part of the training you mentioned the stopping of

19 vehicles. Would those have been situations where vehicles were fleeing

20 from regular police forces?

21 A. That's right. Rapid deployment check-points were placed, so when

22 persons would move away from crime scenes or other sites we could put a

23 check-point there because we did have mobile check-points on various roads

24 within the Pec SUP, in order to avoid any undesirable consequences for the

25 police organs.

1 Q. And the persons moving away from crime scenes in that scenario

2 would be the perpetrators; am I correct?

3 A. That's right. Precisely because of such cases.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikcevic.

5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

6 witness at this point in time.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

8 There seems to be no Defence cross-examination.

9 Mr. Nikcevic, you'll now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor,

10 Mr. Hannis.

11 Mr. Hannis.

12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Nikcevic.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. If I understand correctly, you joined the PJP in 1992; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then in 1999 you also became a member of an OPG?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall what month in 1999 that was?

22 A. The end of 1998 and the beginning of 1999, the very beginning. In

23 December I completed my training and I became a member of the OPG.

24 Q. And what were you doing between 1992 and when you joined the OPG

25 or became a member of the OPG? Were you working as a regular policeman in

1 Celopek?

2 A. That's right. I did regular police work. I worked in the sector,

3 I did patrols, check-points, duty service, and other work.

4 Q. Okay. And in 1998 between July and the end of October 1998, did

5 you take part in any actions as a member of the PJP in Kosovo?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was that -- were any of those actions joint actions with the army,

8 with the VJ?

9 A. There were actions that we carried out with the Army of

10 Yugoslavia.

11 Q. We'll probably get to some of those tomorrow because we're almost

12 out of time for today, but tell me about the OPG. What exactly is that?

13 If I understood what you said, this is a group of men who were drawn from

14 the PJP. Is this a smaller group taken from the PJP?

15 A. The OPG is -- OPG were not taken out of PJP ranks. They are still

16 within the PJP, but they had undergone intensified training.

17 Q. So is everybody who's in an OPG also a member of some PJP unit

18 except they've had additional training over and above what the regular PJP

19 members have?

20 A. That's right. They stay in the same unit that they had been sent

21 from. I was sent by my company commander and I returned to the same

22 company.

23 Q. Okay. And is the OPG some specialised group within the PJP that's

24 called upon for special tasks or special assignments because they have had

25 additional training?

1 A. Nothing is specialised. They just shouldered a burden that was

2 greater than that shouldered by others. They bore the brunt of the work.

3 Q. So did every -- did every PJP then have within it at least one

4 OPG, if you know?

5 A. All PJP from the 124th did. I think the others did too.

6 Q. And if you could help us out, what was the 124th?

7 A. Detachment.

8 Q. It's not a brigade?

9 A. At first we called it the intervention brigade, and then it was

10 expanded into a detachment, whatever -- how should I know?

11 Q. Do you know when that change occurred?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. And can you give me an example of the kind of task or job that an

14 OPG might be given to do that couldn't be or wouldn't be done by just

15 regular PJP personnel?

16 A. OPG did not receive special tasks that were to be carried out.

17 The OPG primarily was supposed to be in the forefront when we went into

18 action and the other men were supposed to look at them but we did not

19 really receive any independent special tasks.

20 Q. Okay. You wore the same kinds of uniforms as a regular PJP,

21 correct?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. You had the same kind of weapons and equipment?

24 A. The same weapons, the same equipment, the same everything.

25 Q. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why this separate

1 group of OPG is created. It sounds like there's really no difference

2 between them. You didn't get any extra pay. What is the difference, just

3 that extra training?

4 A. From my point of view, that was the only thing. Now, how it was

5 envisioned at a higher level, they're probably the only ones who know

6 that.

7 Q. Within your OPG did you have a commander who was different than

8 your commander in the PJP?

9 A. No. My immediate superior was the company commander, Krsto

10 Djuricic.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, would this be an appropriate place to

13 break for the day?

14 JUDGE BONOMY: It would if I could understand the last point.

15 Are you saying that he also led the OPG or was there some other

16 platoon commander that led the OPG?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Our immediate superior was

18 Krsto Djuricic as company commander. The OPG is -- the OPG was not

19 platoon strength but squad strength.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 Mr. Hannis, there is pending a motion for addition of documents to

22 the Lukic Defence Rule 65 ter list for the witness Marinkovic. Now, it

23 was only filed yesterday, but are you in a position to say whether you

24 have any comment or response to make?

25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm not sure. Ms. Carter will be

1 handling that witness, it was forwarded to her, but I haven't had a chance

2 to discuss with her if she has a position to raise with you.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you ask her, if possible, to respond at least

4 informally to the Chamber today to let us know whether more time's

5 necessary to consider it, whether there is no response, or whatever.

6 MR. HANNIS: I will.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Just so that we know where we are strategically

8 because this is a witness scheduled for this week.

9 MR. HANNIS: I will. Thank you.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

11 Mr. Nikcevic, we have to interrupt our proceedings now for the

12 day. That completes our work for the day, which means that you will

13 require to return tomorrow to complete your evidence. Meanwhile, it is

14 vital that you have no communication with anyone at all, anyone at all,

15 about any aspect of the evidence in this whole case. You may communicate

16 with whoever you like about whatever other subjects you wish except the

17 evidence in the case. We will resume at 9.00 tomorrow, 9.00 in the

18 morning tomorrow, in this courtroom. Now would you please leave the

19 courtroom with the usher and we will see you again at 9.00 tomorrow.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

23 February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.

24

25