Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23265

1 Wednesday, 27 February 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, everyone. We hope to be continuing

6 with the evidence of Mr. Nikcevic.

7 MR. OGRIZOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my name is Ozren

8 Ogrizovic. I am the case manager in Mr. Sreten Lukic's team. Mr. Ivetic

9 is actually in the building, unfortunately he may be about ten minutes

10 late for the start of the trial. I can only offer my apologies on his

11 behalf. He was sick throughout the day yesterday. He just got in touch

12 with me several minutes ago to let me know that he was in the building and

13 on his way to the courtroom.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Is Mr. Lukic not available?

15 MR. OGRIZOVIC: [Interpretation] He will be arriving for our next

16 witness in about half an hour.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Was there no communication earlier about the

18 possibility that Mr. Ivetic would not be here?

19 MR. OGRIZOVIC: [Interpretation] I do not have information to that

20 effect. The last thing I heard from Mr. Ivetic was that he would be here

21 on time; however, he called me a couple of minutes ago telling me that he

22 was about to enter the building and would make the courtroom in about ten

23 minutes.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there anything you wish to say to us,

Page 23266

1 Mr. Ivetic?

2 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, I apologise for my tardiness.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't think we deserve an explanation?

4 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, I apologise. I've been ill the

5 past few days and it's been harder for me to get here in the morning. And

6 then unfortunately I was down in courtroom I waiting for the door to be

7 opened until I found out that we were in courtroom III. So I would have

8 been here a little bit -- couple minutes earlier apart from that.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Nikcevic.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Your cross-examination by Mr. Hannis will continue

14 in a moment. I have to remind you that the solemn declaration you gave

15 right at the beginning of the evidence that you would speak the truth,

16 that continues to apply to your evidence until it's completed.

17 Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Nikcevic. Yesterday you told us about the OPGs,

23 and you mentioned that the OPG that you were in numbered about ten men and

24 you said together with Klina and Istok. Does that mean that the OPG that

25 you were in included some men from Klina and Istok as well as some of you

Page 23267

1 from Pec?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. And who issued you your task or your commands? Was it somebody

4 from Pec or from Klina or from Istok? Who was in overall command of your

5 OPG?

6 A. We would receive our tasks at the outset from the squad commander

7 who was from Istok, and I really can't remember his name. He was a

8 warrant officer.

9 Q. And do you know from who he received orders and directions? Who

10 was his boss?

11 A. The company commander, Krsto Djuricic.

12 Q. And do you know from whom Djuricic received orders and directions,

13 who was over him?

14 A. The commander, and I really don't know who the commander was.

15 Q. Okay. And when you say the commander and you don't know who that

16 was, you don't know his name or you don't know the position he held or

17 both?

18 A. No, I don't know his name, but he was the detachment commander. I

19 didn't know then and I don't know now. I never asked around.

20 Q. When you say "detachment commander," do you mean PJP detachment

21 commander?

22 A. Probably so. Based on the system that was in place the detachment

23 commander exercised command over the detachment, the platoon commander

24 exercised command over the platoon, the company commander exercised

25 command over the company, and the commander exercised command over

Page 23268

1 everybody.

2 Q. Yesterday you mentioned some information about call-signs. You

3 said that when the platoon commander, Djukic, got killed the call-sign

4 Grom was the one that you no longer used. When did Commander Djukic get

5 killed, approximately?

6 A. Djukic was killed during the action at Streoc, I think sometime in

7 mid-1998 but I can't be more specific. Probably sometime late in May.

8 Q. Okay. In that answer you went on to say then the entire group of

9 the 1st and 5th Platoon took over the call-sign Munja. Is that right?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Were both the 1st and 5th Platoons from Pec?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you two operate together or separately?

14 A. I belonged to the 1st Platoon. Whenever there was an action, we

15 were always together.

16 Q. Okay. And you mentioned Vidomir Salipur, was he in one of those

17 platoons?

18 A. At the outset he was the commander of the 5th Platoon. After

19 Djukic was killed, he was appointed commander of the 1st Platoon. As for

20 the chief of the Pec SUP, the chief of the police, Dragan Kerseljevic, he

21 gave them special call-signs, one was Munja, lightning. Since he was

22 there for support and the commander of the 1st Platoon Djukic was given

23 the call-sign Grom, thunder-bolt.

24 Q. After Djukic was killed, Salipur took over the 1st Platoon and

25 then who took over the 5th Platoon?

Page 23269

1 A. I can't remember his name.

2 Q. Okay. You mentioned yesterday an individual named Nebojsa Minic.

3 During the time that he was with you, what platoon was he in?

4 A. The 5th.

5 Q. I want to mention some other names and ask you if you know who

6 they are; and if so, tell us what unit or organization they belonged to.

7 Did you know Miljan Kaljevic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what group was he in?

10 A. The 1st Platoon.

11 Q. What about Sreko Popovic?

12 A. Zarko Popovic --

13 Q. Srecko --

14 A. Srecko Popovic.

15 Q. Pardon my pronunciation.

16 A. Srecko Popovic was a member of the 5th Platoon. I don't know for

17 what reason, but he was replaced the same time as Minic.

18 Q. Did he sometimes go by the nickname Bordus?

19 A. No, at least not that I knew.

20 Q. And Miljan Kaljevic --

21 MR. IVETIC: If I can intervene for the transcript before it goes

22 too far up, at line 17, page 5, he was moved out at the same time as Minic

23 rather than replaced, "maknut" was the Serbian word.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

Page 23270

1 Q. Did you ever know Miljan Kaljevic to go by the nickname Rambo?

2 Did you know him to use the nickname Rambo?

3 A. No, never.

4 Q. How about Sladisa Kastratovic?

5 A. He is familiar. He was also from the 5th Platoon, and he was

6 moved out the same time as Minic and Popovic.

7 Q. Now, when you say they were moved out, what do you mean exactly?

8 A. They were no longer members of the PJP, of the Pec SUP. I never

9 again saw them in uniform in Pec.

10 Q. And when approximately was it that they were moved out?

11 A. I don't know exactly, but I think sometime in September 1998.

12 Q. And do you know why they were moved out?

13 A. I know that Minic had smashed up a kiosk in Uska Street, that's

14 what we were told. As for those others, probably there had been a check

15 by the sector chief and the officials in charge of vetting persons who

16 were police officers or military reservists; and after this, they were

17 moved out from us. Be that as it may, I'm not familiar with the procedure

18 because that wasn't my business. This is just a comment.

19 Q. And you never saw any official document regarding their removal,

20 right?

21 A. No.

22 Q. As far as you know, there weren't any criminal proceedings taken

23 against any of them?

24 A. No, not that I knew.

25 Q. Are you aware that there were allegations that those three, among

Page 23271

1 others, were alleged to have been involved in a massacre of civilians in

2 Cuska village just east of Pec on or about the 14th of May, 1999?

3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would object just to the relevance of

4 this. It's beyond the scope. The gentleman has testified that his

5 knowledge of Minic was that -- and the others was that they left the Pec

6 SUP in September of 1998. If we're talking about an event in 1999

7 [Realtime transcript read in error "1998"], that's about as relevant for

8 our purposes as something happening in 2003 with this witness.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, he's from Pec, he's in the area, there's

11 evidence of a massacre of civilians in May 1999. The fact that these

12 gentlemen may have left his group in August of 1998 doesn't mean he might

13 not know about it.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment.

16 The issue here is the witness's knowledge of events affecting the

17 individuals mentioned and the circumstances in which they came to be no

18 longer members of the PJP. Their conduct thereafter may indeed be

19 relevant in assessing the likelihood that the witness's account of what

20 they did or at least what one of them did is accurate, so we will allow

21 you to proceed with this line, Mr. Hannis.

22 MR. IVETIC: One more thing then, Your Honour, the transcript says

23 if we're talking about an event in 1998 at line 6, obviously that should

24 be 1999.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, thank you.

Page 23272

1 Mr. Hannis.

2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

3 Q. Let me ask you again, are you aware that these -- Mr. Minic,

4 Popovic, and Kaljevic are alleged to have been involved in an alleged

5 massacre of civilians in Cuska village just east of Pec in May of 1999.

6 Did you not hear about that?

7 A. Late 1998 Kaljevic left the police and left the Pec area, since he

8 was originally from Montenegro. He was a SUP official in Pec. It would

9 have been impossible for him to be in the Pec area. As for those two, as

10 I said before, I never saw them again since they left the unit.

11 Q. Do you recall where you were on the 14th of May, 1999?

12 A. May 1999, I think I was at home following the injury that I had

13 sustained near Stari Trg in Mitrovica. I was bedridden.

14 Q. When were you injured near Stari Trg?

15 A. On the 28th of April, 1999.

16 Q. And how long were you out of action due to that injury?

17 A. Until early June or sometime into June. The departure from Pec,

18 that's when I rejoined the unit.

19 Q. You told us about some of those radio call-signs. In the units

20 that you were in, who carried and used the radios? Was it only your

21 platoon commander or your company commander? How many individuals had

22 radios? First of all in 1998.

23 A. In 1998 each squad commander, each platoon commander, each deputy

24 company commander, and each company commander and possibly anyone who went

25 to an observation post or the leader of such a group would then be given a

Page 23273

1 radio.

2 Q. Did you ever carry one in 1998?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, what about in 1999, was it the same, each squad commander,

5 platoon commander, deputy company commander, and company commander?

6 A. That's right. I think we got extra radio equipment. The squads

7 had I think two radio sets each.

8 Q. And in 1999 did you carry one of the radios in your squad?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And who was your squad commander in 1999?

11 A. A man from Istok, his name escapes me now really. He was only

12 there for a short while and I only spent a short time with him therefore.

13 Q. Yeah, you told me before you forgot his name. You mentioned some

14 of the extra training you underwent in December 1998 in connection with

15 being in the OPG and you told us that that training was led by Goran

16 Radosavljevic. Did you know him before this training in December 1998?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And after that training in December 1998, did you hear anything

19 about him or know what he was doing?

20 A. 2002 he was my commander in the gendarmerie.

21 Q. Thank you. You told us that after you completed your OPG training

22 you went back to your regular work at the police station in Celopek. How

23 big was Celopek village back then, approximately?

24 A. You mean in terms of size or the number of residents?

25 Q. Both if you can tell me.

Page 23274

1 A. I don't know exactly, but it had some 400 houses or so.

2 Q. And how many police worked in your police station in Celopek back

3 in 1998 and 1999?

4 A. In 1998, around 15; and in 1999 we were reinforced I think up to

5 30, 25 to 30, 20-ish.

6 Q. Okay. You described for us the kind of uniforms worn by the

7 regular police and then the PJP, and I wasn't clear on this answer.

8 Regarding the uniforms the PJP wore you said they wore multi-coloured navy

9 blue jackets, shirts, trousers, and boots on their feet. Multi-coloured,

10 does that mean like the camouflage pattern?

11 A. PJP had blue camouflage uniforms, navy blue or a grey blue.

12 Q. And then you mentioned later that uniform changed to an

13 olive-green-grey, that was also a camouflage uniform?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Was there a shortage of uniforms in either 1998 or 1999 for the

16 PJP?

17 A. I don't know whether it existed, but our unit had both. In 1998

18 we used the blue one and in end 1998 and all of 1999 we used the

19 olive-green-grey.

20 Q. You told us yesterday at page 45 that -- in answer to a

21 question: "Did any members of your PJP unit wear any non-standard

22 uniforms different from anybody else?"

23 And you said: "No, the principle of uniformity was highly

24 respected."

25 Now, however, did you not see in 1998 and/or in 1999 other PJPs in

Page 23275

1 the field with all kinds of different uniforms, mixed bits and pieces that

2 didn't match and non-standard items like bandannas or headbands. You

3 didn't see any of that in other PJP units?

4 A. A certain number of reservists in the police wore different

5 uniforms to ours, but they did not have bandannas. We wore bandannas

6 only -- sorry, we wore kerchiefs only around our necks, like against

7 sweat.

8 Q. And you never saw any PJP wearing them around their head?

9 A. Under the cap, yes, because that was the time when it was very hot

10 and some of us wore them around their head against sweating.

11 Q. You were asked about the wearing of ribbons, and you explained to

12 us that you recalled two different time-periods when you did that. The

13 first one was after Captain Perovic had been kidnapped in July, and you

14 said: "From then onwards I know that we wore ribbons."

15 So how long from July 1998, when you first started wearing

16 ribbons, did you continue to wear them?

17 A. I don't know for how long they were worn, but I believe until

18 September, I think. I really can't tell you for sure. It's been a long

19 time since then.

20 Q. But you stopped wearing them in 1998 sometime before the OSCE

21 mission arrived, correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And then I think you told us that the second time-period you

24 remember wearing ribbons was in 1999. You --

25 A. Correct.

Page 23276

1 Q. And in relation to when the NATO bombing started, how long after

2 that was it before you wore ribbons in 1999?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I believe he gave the exact month and

5 time-frame yesterday.

6 MR. HANNIS: If I can have a citation to that, Your Honour. I see

7 it was put to him in a question, but the answer he gave was 1999. Maybe

8 it was earlier than the section I'm looking at.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I see no difficulty about asking that question,

10 Mr. Hannis.

11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Nikcevic, can you recall now how long after the NATO bombing

13 was it before you started wearing ribbons again?

14 A. We wore those ribbons during the Rugova action. Now, what time it

15 was and how long, it was not long.

16 Q. Okay. Yesterday you mentioned that after the OSCE arrived you

17 were doing your regular police work in Celopek and then you said: "Save

18 for the incident in Racak."

19 Were you involved in the event AT Racak around the middle of

20 January 1999?

21 MR. IVETIC: For the record, the same standing objection we've

22 been making throughout this case, since Racak has been removed from the

23 indictment.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: The decision of the Chamber will be the same as it

25 has been all along, that when it comes to issues of command and control of

Page 23277

1 the forces of the authorities, then we will allow that to be explored.

2 And at the moment it's not clear that this questioning goes beyond that.

3 So please continue, Mr. Hannis.


5 Q. Mr. Nikcevic, were you involved in the action at Racak about the

6 15th of January, 1999?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I think I saw your name or a name like yours mentioned as someone

9 who was injured on that occasion. Was that you?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Who was your commander on that occasion?

12 A. I really don't know who my commander was. I mean, I know today

13 but at that time I didn't know who my commander was.

14 Q. Today you know who your commander was at Racak, but at the time

15 you didn't know?

16 A. No, I'm saying today I know, being on the job I am, who my

17 commander is; but at that time I didn't know and wasn't really interested

18 who the commander was. I was -- I only cared up to company commander but

19 I never saw that man.

20 Q. Okay. Who -- well, how did you come to go to Racak on that date?

21 A. On the orders of the commanding officer, "komandir."

22 Q. Whose name was?

23 A. Krsto Djuricic.

24 Q. And above him you don't know who was commanding or involved in the

25 Racak event?

Page 23278

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you recall whether you and your colleagues wore ribbons on that

3 occasion?

4 A. I don't remember, but I don't think we did.

5 Q. Do you recall what you were told about the purpose of that action?

6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, does this relate to command of the

7 action or is it going to the substance of the action? Again, they keep

8 trying to expand the scope of this Court's ruling with respect to Racak to

9 try and bring something into the case that is not in the case.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I think this may well go to the question of command

11 and control, Mr. Ivetic. Let's see where it's going before we take a

12 stance on determining the bound in this particular instance.

13 Mr. Hannis.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, do you recall what you were told about the purpose of

16 this action at Racak?

17 A. The commanding officer told us there had been an incident, that

18 some of our colleagues were killed and wounded near Racak and that we were

19 being sent to arrest the persons responsible.

20 Q. Do you recall what other units were engaged with you or did you

21 know?

22 A. There were another two groups, operative pursuit groups, at least

23 I think so.

24 Q. Do you know where they were from?

25 A. One was local, from that area, and about the other one I really

Page 23279

1 don't know anymore.

2 Q. Do you know if there was any support provided or assistance

3 provided by the VJ?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. And do you know what the outcome was in terms of anyone being

6 arrested or anyone being killed among the Albanians in Racak?

7 JUDGE BONOMY: That goes beyond the bounds of what's permissible

8 in this case, Mr. Hannis.

9 MR. HANNIS: Well, it relates to another topic, Your Honour.

10 Maybe I need to ask a different question.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.


13 Q. Now you told us you were asked about: "What was the KLA practice

14 with respect to their own casualties?" And you said: "In many, many

15 cases they carried their own wounded and dead away and didn't leave them

16 behind," right?

17 A. That's right. That's what I answered. In many cases, not in all

18 cases, but I cannot even remember every case.

19 Q. Do you recall there were a number of dead bodies left behind in

20 Racak --

21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, if the purpose of this is to find out

23 how KLA bodies, if any, were handled on this occasion, that requires

24 exploring the merits in an unacceptable way to determine who was who in

25 this incident and that's something that's beyond the scope of the trial.

Page 23280

1 MR. HANNIS: All right, Your Honour.

2 Q. You told us that in many, many cases they carried their own

3 wounded and dead away. Can you give me two or three examples where that

4 happened by date and location?

5 A. I cannot recall the date and location when they carried their

6 losses away, because we would just know by the blood-stains. And later in

7 Krusevac village where we found a hospital - and that's one of the

8 examples - we saw that they had some wounded and certainly some corpses

9 there.

10 Q. Let me show you Exhibit P1596. This will be a photograph coming

11 up on your screen in a minute. I will tell you, sir, that we've had some

12 evidence in this case of a plan for marking or how ribbons were to be worn

13 in the week of July 25th to July 31st, 1998, and on the 26th of July the

14 instruction was to wear a red ribbon on the left shoulder and a white

15 ribbon on the right shoulder. Can you tell us anything about who this

16 group is? Are those PJP or some other police formation? What can you

17 tell us based on the uniforms?

18 A. I can say that those are police uniforms. I don't know anyone in

19 this picture.

20 Q. You described the police vests that were worn. Can you point to

21 one in this photograph that's an example of what you described for us

22 yesterday?

23 A. I told you about my unit. These people are not my unit. None of

24 those men here is wearing the combat vest that was issued to policemen at

25 the time.

Page 23281

1 Q. Would you agree with me this group here is not showing the high

2 degree of respect for uniformity that you told us you had within your

3 unit?

4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I will object to the question insofar as

5 that we have evidence from one witness that this may not even be Kosovo.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lazarevic, I appreciate that when you're

7 wearing the earphones you tend to speak perhaps more loudly than you

8 would. If you could, when you're speaking to each other remove the

9 earphones so that the sound does not carry across the courtroom.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, your response to that.

12 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, we do have that schedule in

13 Exhibit 6D667, which talks about wearing a red ribbon on the left shoulder

14 and a white ribbon on the right shoulder. And I think from other evidence

15 in the case there is some -- just a suggestion that these are police and

16 that it probably is Kosovo in 1998.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: What is that evidence?

18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't have it to hand.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

20 MR. HANNIS: But I recall the witness -- I thought the witness who

21 said it was, and then he said it wasn't Kosovo based on the hill or the

22 forest behind them.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

24 MR. IVETIC: If I could assist, ribbons can be worn in many, many

25 conflicts. There are other formations that use the same uniforms that the

Page 23282

1 police had in 1998 and 1999, and the witness was the Prosecution witness

2 K90 that said this was not Kosovo.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: These are all issues that go to weight and they may

4 be very substantial in this instance, but this is evidence that we do not

5 want to lose sight of by excluding it at this stage. We will reserve the

6 objection that's been taken and allow you to ask the question, Mr. Hannis.


8 Q. I think my question was: Sir, you would agree with me that this

9 group is not showing the same high degree of respect for uniformity that

10 you said you had within your unit, right? Their uniforms are all mixed

11 and matched?

12 A. The uniform as such is not mixed and matched, but you can see on

13 the man with a moustache that he's dirty and the vests they're wearing are

14 mixed and matched.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Between July and October 1998, were you

16 personally involved in any anti-terrorist actions in Kosovo?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were those strictly MUP actions or were they joint actions with

19 the VJ?

20 A. In end July and August I think and all of September, we worked

21 together with the army in 1998.

22 Q. Do you recall now approximately how many different anti-terrorist

23 actions you personally were involved in during that time-period?

24 A. I don't remember each and every action and I didn't participate in

25 each and every action, but I did take part in many of them.

Page 23283

1 Q. Was it as many as ten for you personally?

2 A. I don't believe it was ten; six or seven.

3 Q. Do you recall where any of them were by location, name of a

4 village or an area?

5 A. I remember the action towards Iglarevo, opening up the road from

6 Pec to Pristina, the main road. And since the village was under

7 blockade - Kijevo village that was - we performed a joint action.

8 Q. Do you -- sorry.

9 A. Also from Kuza village towards Glodjane and Jablanica, Bucani,

10 Kotradic, Papracani, that route.

11 Q. Do you remember now approximately when any of those took place?

12 A. Well, that's the period. I cannot tell you the dates.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did you keep any diary or take any photos of

14 what happened during that time-period?

15 A. No, I did not. It's possible that I have -- at least I had two or

16 three photographs from all of 1998 and 1999.

17 Q. You told us that before each and every action you were told very

18 clearly to treat civilians in keeping with the highest professional

19 standards, and the same applied to any wounded persons and anyone

20 arrested. Can you recall now, what was your understanding of the FRY laws

21 about treatment of civilians and wounded persons, including terrorists or

22 KLA? Do you recall specifically what those requirements were or what you

23 were told?

24 A. Just like before the war, the same applied throughout the war and

25 the same applies today. I treat another the way I would expect to be

Page 23284

1 treated by someone else.

2 Q. Now, yesterday Mr. Ivetic showed you Exhibit 6D614, and you went

3 to a number of incidents that you had some personal knowledge of. I want

4 to ask you a couple of questions about some of those. One of them related

5 to Radmilo Boskovic which said between July and September 1998 several

6 times members of the KLA carried out terrorist attacks on homes and

7 property of hers. As I recall, the entry said no on-site investigation

8 was carried out because of security concerns and a criminal complaint was

9 filed against unknown perpetrators. Does that mean between July and

10 September 1998 you - and I mean you guys in the police - weren't able to

11 stop these crimes were catch the people doing it?

12 A. That is correct. During a period of two months this Ljubo

13 Baranska zone of theirs was established, there were no police or military

14 there. After that, broader actions were undertaken.

15 Q. You mentioned rapid deployment check-points were placed so that

16 when persons would move away from crime scenes we could put a check-point

17 there because we did have mobile check-points. During what time-period

18 did you have these mobile check-points?

19 A. I cannot recall exactly when, during what period, but I remember

20 Iglarevo, however I forgot the person's name. In any case they came to

21 his family house, he is a Siptar, he killed one person and took another

22 two to the police --

23 Q. I'm sorry. I just wanted the time-period. If you don't know,

24 I'll have to move on to something else.

25 A. I was trying to explain that. That was during that period, and

Page 23285

1 perhaps you can see that in the criminal reports.

2 Q. Well, I can't. Maybe Mr. Ivetic can raise that with you on

3 re-direct exam after I'm finished. I would like to show you a

4 photograph --

5 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, what I have here is from Exhibit

6 P438, which is the book "Under Orders" not in evidence, but there's a

7 photograph that I would like to show this witness. The version that is in

8 e-court is in black and white. I have a colour photograph that we've made

9 and given an exhibit number, and it's P3111 and I would like to use that

10 because I think it's more useful. I've advised the Defence yesterday that

11 I was going to use this photograph.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying that from some other copy of the

13 book "Under Orders" you've managed to take a colour photograph?

14 MR. HANNIS: Yes, yes, this is the identical photograph that's in

15 the book, but in e-court I think we have a black-and-white version of the

16 book and not a colour version of the book.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Any problem with this, Mr. Ivetic?

18 MR. IVETIC: Apart from it being in "Under Orders," I don't have

19 the providence of the photograph that "Under Orders" had to get it. I

20 don't have the exhibit in front of me to see if they have a item, but

21 we've been using photographs throughout this case, so I don't see that as

22 being a strong objection on my part.

23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Nikcevic, we're going to show you a photograph here in a

25 second. Can you recognise any of the people in that photograph?

Page 23286

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in the middle of the back row, that's Salipur, isn't it?

3 A. The one standing.

4 Q. In the middle of the back row, yes, with the rifle in his left

5 hand held up, correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Can you tell us any of the other people in the photograph, on the

8 back row far right, in the blue camouflage uniform, who's that?

9 A. The one with the light machine-gun or the one without? The one to

10 the left or --

11 Q. On the back right, that's Nebojsa Minic, isn't it?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. And the last guy on the back row on the left, who is that, do you

14 know?

15 A. Miljan Kaljevic.

16 Q. On the back row or the front row?

17 A. The row below, the one with a radio device.

18 Q. And the weapon, correct?

19 A. Yes, correct.

20 Q. And he's wearing a headband?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Did you know who the third individual was on the back row standing

23 on the left with his arm up on the KLA emblem? Do you know who that is?

24 A. He is familiar, but I'll need some time to remember his name. I

25 will eventually.

Page 23287

1 Q. Okay. And any of the other guys on the front row, do you

2 recognise them?

3 A. The one in civilian clothes was a journalist. Next to him is

4 Goran Radosavljevic, and I believe the other one is Martinovic.

5 Q. Do you recall Martinovic's first name?

6 A. We called him Mico.

7 Q. Do you know where the journalist was from or what agency he was

8 with?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Do you have any idea when this photograph was taken?

11 A. I remember --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: One moment.

13 Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I was going to say if he's not in the

15 photograph I don't see how he can know without speculating but...

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we should hear what answer he can give us,

17 Mr. Hannis.


19 Q. You can go ahead, Mr. Nikcevic.

20 A. I think this photograph was taken in Glodjane. We discussed this

21 and I was looking at the photograph. This was their line-up to have the

22 photograph taken.

23 Q. And when you say "we discussed this" and you were looking at the

24 photograph, who is "we" that discussed this?

25 A. I was looking at the photograph trying to recognise people, for

Page 23288

1 example, Miljan and Salipur. I was being shown this photograph.

2 Q. When? You mean just now or some prior occasion?

3 A. At that time. I didn't see Miljan since then, and Sala has passed

4 away.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we resolve the first point, please,

6 Mr. Nikcevic. You indicated that you've discussed this photograph

7 previously. When was that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recall exactly. I do

9 remember the photograph, though. I do remember seeing it back in Pec.

10 The photograph was taken -- well, I don't know. I can't remember. I

11 don't remember the photograph as such.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's just resolve this now. You've obviously

13 discussed it with someone before. Tell us first of all when that was.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was towards the end of 1998. We

15 were looking at photographs, and this one I remembered in particular

16 because Goran was in it. That was the reason.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Who were you discussing it with?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was discussing it with Kaljevic

19 and Salipur. They each had one of this photograph.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And when was the event in Glodjane?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in 1998 during the same

22 period when -- well, I don't know what date exactly.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: You cannot help us with a rough indication of when

24 it was?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately August, August or

Page 23289

1 September. I don't know exactly.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.


4 Q. I don't know if you can see on your photograph, but it appears to

5 be at least some of these guys are wearing one red ribbon on their left

6 shoulder. Can you see that?

7 A. Yes, one can see the red ribbon.

8 Q. Exhibit 6D667, which is a schedule for wearing ribbons, indicates

9 the 29th of July, 1998, was a day in which one red ribbon was to be worn

10 on the left shoulder. Knowing that, would you agree with me that this

11 photo may have been taken on or about the 29th of July?

12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would object to the speculation and

13 also I believe Mr. Hannis is reading the exhibit wrong and I believe the

14 exhibit is for one month, not the other months. It's possible there was

15 another date that had the same -- but I believe it's a combination of

16 ribbons. I don't have the exhibit in front of me to be really sure.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a matter on which you can make submissions,

18 Mr. Hannis.

19 Mr. Nikcevic, did you say you could not recognise the person with

20 his hand on the top of the KLA emblem?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know him, he's familiar, but I

22 cannot recall what his name was at this moment.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that a radio apparatus he's carrying?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Just below his right hand there's a brown bag.

Page 23290

1 What's that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a bullet pouch, although some

3 people used it to carry bandages as well or something else they needed.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: And is that standard OPG-issued equipment?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is not standard OPG-issued

6 equipment.

7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, just in case there's some

8 misunderstanding, the witness testified that his OPG training was in

9 December of 1998, so either whether this was in July as Mr. Hannis

10 suggests or September, it would have been before that.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: You're quite right. Thank you.

12 Is it standard PJP-issued equipment?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it is not. Such pouches came

14 with the PAP semi-automatic rifle, and the reserve police forces were

15 issued with those.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

19 Q. In addition to the guy on the back left, isn't -- doesn't

20 Mr. Kaljevic and Mr. Salipur, don't they both have some sort of radio or

21 communication equipment on their vest as well?

22 A. Yes, they do.

23 Q. And can you tell me what Goran Radosavljevic is wearing, is that a

24 uniform? It doesn't look like a camouflage uniform.

25 A. I don't think it's a uniform. However, it could be. I apologise,

Page 23291

1 but I have problems with my eyesight.

2 Q. You told us about Nebojsa Minic and how he was removed after some

3 breaking up of a kiosk. Do you know any more details about that event?

4 Was anyone injured or was he just removed because of some property damage?

5 A. No one was injured during that incident; however, the police

6 patrol in civilian clothes noticed that he was breaking up the kiosk and

7 that was it for him.

8 Q. And do you agree with me that this group is not observing the

9 uniformity principle. We've got all sorts of different mixtures of

10 uniforms just in this small group here, don't we?

11 A. We can see three members of the Pec PJP, Salipur, Miljan, and

12 Martinovic. They are wearing the same clothes. Minic was a reservist

13 wearing a blue uniform and we have Novakovic, the bold person, he's

14 wearing blue clothes. It's another PJP. But this was only for the sake

15 of the photograph. Perhaps this was no action. It might have been during

16 a break.

17 Q. With regard to --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, which is Novakovic?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one I couldn't remember his name

20 a moment ago.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Top left. The one with his hand on the KLA

22 insignia?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


Page 23292

1 Q. You don't recall his first name, do you?

2 A. I don't.

3 Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions, before we leave that

4 photograph, about Salipur. You told us that he was killed around the 8th

5 of April, 1999. I will tell you that in a -- in our exhibit P1993, it's

6 at line -- page 7 of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S, Your Honours, in

7 a meeting on the 11th of May, 1999, that he was spoken about by Krsto

8 Djuricic, who is listed as the commander of the 124th Brigade company.

9 That's your company commander, right?

10 A. Krsto Djuricic commanded our company. There is a tape concerning

11 Salipur and we have an exact date there.

12 Q. And at this meeting at the MUP staff in Pristina on the 11th of

13 May, he's recorded as saying: "We did not have any losses except for

14 Salipur, who was killed while undertaking measures without our approval."

15 Do you know what that's a reference to? What measures was Salipur

16 taking without approval?

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

18 MR. IVETIC: This is pure speculation. There's no foundation for

19 this question. How is he supposed to know what -- unless he was at the

20 meeting, unless he was Mr. Djuricic himself --

21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I resent this kind of intervention where

22 there is a clue to the witness --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I think, Mr. Ivetic, this is a case where you

24 should have asked us to invite the witness to leave. It's very difficult

25 to know whether he be prompted by this intervention. The intervention is

Page 23293

1 without foundation. He was involved in the event, was he not, himself?

2 You --

3 MR. HANNIS: No, I don't have any information about that --

4 MR. IVETIC: If he asked that --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: We don't know.

6 MR. IVETIC: If he asked that and then we get an answer, then

7 there might be foundation; but I'm saying it's speculation. It's nothing

8 more than speculation, Your Honour.

9 MR. HANNIS: The question is: Do you know what it's a reference

10 to? That can be yes or no.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed, Mr. Hannis.

12 Please continue.


14 Q. Do you know what the commander was referring to when he said that

15 Salipur was undertaking measures without our approval? First of all, can

16 you just say yes or no whether you know what that was about?

17 A. I cannot comment a statement made by the commander. He knows why

18 he said that. I do know that Salipur was killed in a vehicle, he was

19 driving it and the vehicle was struck by a shell. He was killed.

20 Q. At the time that happened, do you know where he was going or what

21 he was doing?

22 A. The same day fire was opened on another two or three vehicles

23 which were coming from Montenegro. As to why he went there, I don't know,

24 but I believe his wife was about to deliver. Once he got killed, she gave

25 birth two days later. Since the telephone lines were down, maybe he was

Page 23294

1 trying to reach Rozaje because he was on leave during that period.

2 Q. With regard to the photograph that's still on the screen, during

3 the time that you were in the field in anti-terrorist actions in 1998 and

4 during the war in 1999, did you ever see Goran Radosavljevic out in the

5 field?

6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I think we've had that asked and

7 answered today back at the very beginning of the session Mr. Hannis asked

8 him that question. I don't want to be suggestive. If you want, I can

9 track down the page reference and actually read the answers back to you.

10 But I don't want to be accused of being suggestive to the witness.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't mind him being suggestive if

13 I've asked the question before. I recall asking him if he knew Goran

14 Radosavljevic before the December 1998 training and being told that he was

15 his commander in 2002. I may have asked something that is similar to this

16 question, but I don't think I asked this question before. I stand to be

17 corrected.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have a reference, Mr. Ivetic?

19 MR. IVETIC: [Microphone not activated].

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I really don't see what harm could be done by you

21 pursuing this further, Mr. Hannis. So you say ask the witness about

22 seeing Radosavljevic.


24 Q. Mr. Nikcevic, did you ever see Goran Radosavljevic in the field in

25 1998 or 1999 during these anti-terrorist actions and during the war?

Page 23295

1 A. I don't remember seeing him. By what I can see in the picture, he

2 was there with the journalist. It is possible that he was touring the

3 units there.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 Mr. Ivetic, is there re-direct?

8 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, I do have several questions in

9 re-direct. It will be rather brief though.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nikcevic, we have to have a break at this

11 stage. Could you again leave the courtroom with the usher and we will see

12 you at ten minutes to 11.00.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

16 [The witness takes the stand]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, your re-direct.

18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

20 Q. Mr. Nikcevic, I just have a few questions for you. First I see

21 it's not on the screen anymore, if we could have P3111 on the screen, the

22 photograph that we were looking at prior to the break. Sir, I know it's

23 clear for the record when Mr. Hannis asked you items that are also visibly

24 clear. Are the newspaper -- are the news journalists and

25 Mr. Radosavljevic, do they have red ribbons anywhere on their shoulders?

Page 23296

1 A. No, they don't.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, is there more than one journalist

3 there?

4 MR. IVETIC: I believe there is one. Did I misspeak and say

5 several?

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Your question was "journalists," but we're talking

7 about the one --

8 MR. IVETIC: The one, correct.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Thank you.

10 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. I must have misspoken.

11 Q. Going back earlier to your testimony, you mentioned Mr. Srecko

12 Popovic and Mr. Slavisa Kastratovic -- or Kastratovic, I apologise. Were

13 these -- during the time-period prior to being discharged from the MUP in

14 Pec, the SUP in Pec, were they active policemen?

15 A. No, they were reservists.

16 Q. Thank you. Just waiting for the transcript to catch up with us.

17 And in Celopek, first of all, could you tell us precisely what type of --

18 what type of organized formation was that in Celopek, because it's getting

19 several different translations in English. What was the entity in Celopek

20 and was it under the authority of any other organized units of the MUP?

21 A. The police section in -- the police department in Celopek was

22 under the jurisdiction of the police station of the Pec SUP and it

23 employed regular policemen.

24 Q. Thank you. And with respect to that element in Celopek, you

25 testified that in 1998 there were approximately 15 policemen and that

Page 23297

1 later that was increased to either 20, 25, or 30. If I could ask you,

2 during the time-period when there were 15 police officers, how many police

3 officers were on a duty shift at any given time? How many were on duty at

4 the same time in the course of a regular day?

5 A. Depending on their line of work, depending on who's in the duty

6 service, who's on the regular beat --

7 Q. Let me ask the question a different way. Were all 15 ever on duty

8 at the same time?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Going back slightly, Mr. Ivetic, the institution or

11 whatever at Celopek I had understood from earlier evidence was an OUP. Is

12 that correct?

13 MR. IVETIC: I could ask the witness to clarify but I don't

14 believe so. That's why I had confusion. Because there's --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --

16 MR. IVETIC: It's been called a station, a department, and --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think the answer clarifies anything. It

18 simply says the police section or police department in Celopek fell under

19 the SUP at Pec.


21 Q. Could you give us the entire hierarchy from the SUP Pec downwards

22 to the organized entity in Celopek.

23 A. SUP Pec had three police departments, one in Celopek, one in

24 Klincina and one in Ozrim, plus two branch police offices, Klina and

25 Istok, these are OUPs and they had their own police departments. Now,

Page 23298

1 where they were, I wouldn't know.

2 MR. IVETIC: Does that clarify sufficiently for Your Honours?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Not really because there's confusion in my mind

4 about whether Klina and Istok are OUPs. I don't think they are from this,

5 but --

6 MR. IVETIC: Well, in the Serbian he called them OUPs.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but he said that he doesn't know where

8 they -- "where they were, I wouldn't know," suggests that these OUPs are

9 in places he doesn't know, rather than in Klina and Istok. So it's very

10 unclear to me.

11 MR. IVETIC: He said, and I quote: "They had their own police

12 departments. Now, where they were, I wouldn't know."

13 JUDGE BONOMY: I see, so where they base their police departments

14 is what -- yeah. So the end result is that the police department he is

15 part of is a satellite of the SUP in Pec, which falls under no other

16 organizational unit, it falls directly under the SUP in Pec. Is that the

17 position that you're trying to convey?


19 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Witness?

20 A. Correct.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 I have no further questions for this witness.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


Page 23299

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikcevic.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nikcevic, that completes your evidence. Thank

4 you for coming here to the Tribunal to give evidence. You may now leave

5 the courtroom with the usher.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you leaving us now, Mr. Ivetic, or are you

9 staying?

10 MR. IVETIC: I was planning on leaving, yes.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Well, I just wanted to remind you that

12 there's only one medicine that will cure what you have, I hope you take it

13 and recover quickly.

14 MR. IVETIC: I intend to, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: And you can speak to my countrymen about where to

16 get the best.

17 We will now hear from Mr. Lukic who the next witness will be.

18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, good morning. Our next witness is

20 Petar Dujkovic.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Dujkovic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

Page 23300

1 speak the truth by reading aloud the document now being shown to you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: You will now be examined by Mr. Lukic.

7 Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Examination by Mr. Lukic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dujkovic.

13 A. Good morning.

14 MR. LUKIC: If I kindly ask my friend Eugene O'Sullivan to move a

15 bit so I can see the witness. Thank you.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dujkovic --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- first of all I have to explain something to the Court regarding

19 your written statement --

20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, in the witness statement of this witness

21 there is a paragraph 23, and we have the wrong number of the exhibit

22 inside. So to avoid the hassle we would like to remove that paragraph

23 from his written statement, that's paragraph number 23.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Take it as deleted from the statement, Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

Page 23301

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dujkovic, you have seen that written

2 statement that you signed?

3 A. Yes, I have.

4 Q. I deleted paragraph 23, as we agreed, because it contained a

5 mistake. Regarding other circumstances described in this written

6 statement if I asked you about them again would you give the same answers

7 as in the written statement?

8 A. Yes, I would.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I hereby tender as 6D1499, which is

11 the written statement of Mr. Petar Dujkovic.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have any problem with that, Mr. Stamp?

13 MR. STAMP: No objection.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We shall admit the statement.

15 Just give me a moment, though, Mr. Lukic, would you, please.

16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, thank you.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE BONOMY: One of the deficiencies of the electronic system,

19 and in my opinion there are very few of them, but one is that we cannot

20 make alterations to documents to reflect a deletion. So to resolve the

21 question you need to substitute a redacted version of 6D1499. Now, as

22 soon as you've done it, you should let us know. You don't need to make a

23 filing, just tell us it's been done and we'll confirm that it's

24 substituted for the original.

25 And that reminds me, I should earlier have dealt with your fourth

Page 23302

1 application to amend the 65 ter statement, to which there is no objection,

2 and that application is granted.

3 So please continue, Mr. Lukic, on the basis we shall admit the

4 statement and you can then substitute the redacted version.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. After these procedural matters we can now proceed with your

7 testimony. Mr. Dujkovic, would you kindly introduce yourself and tell us

8 about your career.

9 A. My name is Petar Dujkovic. I was born on the 12th July 1952 in a

10 place called Gornja Brijesnica in Bosnia-Herzegovina, near Lukavac and

11 near Tuzla. All my life I worked with the police. In 1971 I graduated

12 from secondary police school and started to work, and later on the job I

13 completed the higher police school and got a law degree in 1980. During

14 that time and later I was engaged in various jobs with the police,

15 starting as a policeman, later in more senior positions. I spent the most

16 time working with the border police, and in 2005, if I'm not mistaken, I

17 retired.

18 Q. At any time in your career did you control the administration for

19 border affairs?

20 A. Yes, among other things, I worked at the administration of the

21 border police, whose full name is administration for foreign nationals and

22 border affairs. I was first assistant head of the administration; then

23 assistant of one of the sections, the section for border affairs; and

24 later I was assistant head -- sorry, deputy head of the administration.

25 And in the absence of the chief, I managed the administration several

Page 23303

1 years on my own.

2 Q. Now, could you slowly this time repeat the full name of your

3 administration because not all of it is in the record.

4 A. It was the administration of border police, foreign nationals, and

5 administrative affairs.

6 Q. Thank you. Until what time were you at the head of the

7 administration? You don't have to give us the date, just tell us who took

8 over from you.

9 A. I was at the head of the administration until June or July 1999,

10 when General Sreten Lukic took over, whereas I continued for another year,

11 slightly less than a year, as his deputy.

12 Q. Were you a member of the collegium of ministers -- sorry, the

13 minister of internal affairs from 1997 until July 1998 -- 1999?

14 A. Yes, I was a member of the collegium.

15 Q. Who were the other members?

16 A. Assistants of the minister, chiefs and heads of all organizational

17 units or administrations at the seat of the ministry.

18 Q. Before July 1999 was Sreten Lukic member of the collegium of the

19 minister of the interior?

20 A. He couldn't have been because he didn't work at the seat of the

21 ministry.

22 Q. Now could you tell us to the best of your recollection who was the

23 minister and who were his assistants.

24 A. The minister was Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic, and his assistants were

25 General Vlastimir Djordjevic and General Rade Markovic. At the same time

Page 23304

1 these two were at the head of the public security and state security

2 administrations respectively. Another assistant was General Stojan Misic

3 and yet another was General Zekovic. The others were chiefs of

4 administrations, while General Obrad Stevanovic was a member of the

5 collegium in his capacity of assistant minister and he was at the head of

6 the police administration. Other people who attended were General Dragan

7 Ilic, chief of the crime police; Dragisa Dinic, also a general, chief of

8 traffic police; I attended as deputy head of administration for border

9 police, foreign nationals, and administrative affairs. And I'm trying to

10 remember --

11 Q. This will do. Thank you.

12 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I need some guidance from you. We have a

13 6D1305 which is internal rules of Ministry of Internal Affairs, it's not

14 translated but it's actually updated version in force at that time. The

15 Prosecution was using P1072, but it was from 1994 and it's not the exact

16 rules that were in force at that time. They are similar but not the same,

17 so I would rather use one that is accurate.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.

19 MR. STAMP: Subject to getting a translation, we have no

20 objections to using this --


22 MR. STAMP: -- one.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that makes sense. So you should use the

24 1996 one. I hope it's not going to cause a great deal of difficulty that

25 it has not been translated.

Page 23305

1 MR. LUKIC: Small changes, actually, and it can even be followed

2 in P1072 but there are some differences.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, before you move on to that can we just be

4 clear about the ministerial set-up. There isn't a diagram somewhere, is

5 there?

6 MR. LUKIC: On this?

7 JUDGE BONOMY: On the assistant ministers and chiefs of sections

8 or --

9 MR. LUKIC: We'll try to find it --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Just let me ask just a couple of questions of the

11 witness before you proceed.

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Dujkovic, was there a deputy minister?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time there was no deputy

15 minister.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Has there on other occasions or at other times been

17 a deputy minister of the interior?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In the previous period there

19 was one, and as far as I know later when the whole staff changed there was

20 again a deputy minister but not at the moment we are discussing.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the difference between the role of a deputy

22 minister and the role of an assistant minister of the interior?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the difference could be is

24 that the deputy minister is able to stand in for the minister in every way

25 in discharging any function which is part of his job if the minister is

Page 23306

1 absent for whatever reason, and the deputy minister can carry out any task

2 he is entrusted with without being limited by the organization of the

3 organ that he's heading, whereas assistant ministers were each in charge

4 of one area and they could hardly take over another area. One, for

5 instance, assistant minister was in charge of public security, the other

6 was in state security and these were not interchangeable. Most of the

7 other assistant ministers mostly came under public security and each of

8 them had their own line of work.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: There even appears to be a situation where one

10 assistant minister might be directly answerable to a different assistant

11 minister. For example, the relationship between Djordjevic and

12 Stevanovic.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was possible because at

14 the same time he was also chief of public security administration. He was

15 at the same time assistant minister and chief of the public security

16 administration, whereas Obrad Stevanovic was leading one unit which was

17 part of that administration -- part of that sector.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: So both have the status of assistant minister?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: How does that work in practice if they disagree

21 with each other?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't say that because I never

23 had occasion to witness such a situation, and in my line of work generally

24 I had very little to do with the area of Obrad Stevanovic. I had my own

25 assistant, if I can put it that way.

Page 23307

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you ever held the title of assistant minister?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE BONOMY: You've given us I think so far the names of five

5 assistant ministers. Were there actually more than that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that was all. I think I've

7 given you all the names.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: And what were the particular responsibilities of

9 Misic and Zekovic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Misic at the time was

11 responsible for the work of the border police administration of foreign

12 nationals, which is where I worked, and he was also in the fire prevention

13 police. And there may have been some sort of a communications

14 administration that was under him or something like that.

15 As for General Zekovic, he was in charge of logistics. For

16 example, the -- I'm not sure what it was called, joint affairs.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And were both of them responsible to Djordjevic?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they both answered to

19 Djordjevic because their organizational units were part of the sector and

20 they as assistants had direct links to the minister but they probably had

21 certain responsibilities under Djordjevic as well.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE BONOMY: You can see why we would be assisted by some sort

24 of chart, Mr. Lukic, if you have the opportunity to provide that. Thank

25 you. Please continue.

Page 23308

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. You are recorded as saying: "I had my own assistant, if I can put

3 it that way."

4 A. Indeed.

5 Q. What did you mean, the person who was your assistant, what did you

6 mean the assistant minister under whom you were working?

7 A. I apologise for this inaccuracy. What I had in mind was the

8 assistant who was above me who was my superior, but that's what we called

9 him colloquially, as it were.

10 Q. Can you please repeat again who this was.

11 A. General Misic was the assistant minister, he was in charge of the

12 work of my administration, he was my superior, he was also an assistant to

13 the minister. He wasn't my assistant, but he was in charge of my area and

14 that's why I used the expression.

15 Q. Right. That was just by way of clarifying. Thank you.

16 Further for the sake of clarity, in addition to Rade Markovic, who

17 was assistant minister and sector head for state security, what about the

18 remaining assistants, the remaining three, Stevanovic, Zekovic, and Misic;

19 were they not, in fact, subordinated to General Vlastimir Djordjevic who

20 was chief of public security?

21 A. Yes, they were.

22 Q. Can we please now have - and you can find that in your binder -

23 6D1305. We see that on our screens now. Perhaps we could have P1072, the

24 English version, displayed at the same time. I'm not sure if the

25 technology is working properly. Can we actually do that? All right. I

Page 23309

1 see it.

2 What sort of a document is this, sir?

3 A. These are rules establishing the internal organization of the

4 Ministry of the Interior. This was passed on the 31st of December, 1997,

5 and this is the final version.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need Article 13 in both languages.

7 In the Serbian we're looking at page 8.

8 [In English] We need paragraph 13, I believe it's page 8 --

9 actually, it's page, yeah, 10 and I think in English in the other document

10 it's page 12 or 13.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dujkovic, we are facing a certain amount of

12 trouble with our technology, and I wasn't specific enough about the page

13 numbers, I'm afraid. According to these rules that were passed in

14 December 1997 or based on these rules, you see the names of all the

15 different administrations there. Can you try to remember who headed each

16 and every one of these to the best of your recollection.

17 A. Yes, Article 13 shows all the organizational units at ministry

18 headquarters. Number 1, crime police administration headed by General

19 Dragan Ilic, chief; police administration headed by General Obrad

20 Stevanovic, who was also assistant minister; traffic police

21 administration, General Dragisa Dinic; operations centre, Colonel Milivoj

22 Markovic.

23 Q. Slow down, please, just a little.

24 A. Administration for border police, foreign nationals, and

25 administrative affairs headed by me, I was the deputy chief of the

Page 23310

1 administration; number 6, the fire prevention police administration,

2 headed by General Spasic, I don't remember his first name; analysis

3 administration, Colonel Slobodan Krstic, if I'm not mistaken;

4 administration for information and technology, Colonel Dragan Anucovic --

5 Anucojic, Anucojic with a J; communications administration headed I think

6 by Joksic, I'm not sure if I got the name right, Joksic or Joksovic, and I

7 definitely can't remember his first name; administration for joint affairs

8 of the ministry headed by Gojko Todorovic; and administration for food

9 supplies and accommodation headed by Popovic, I can't remember his first

10 name. Most of these were colonels by rank. Whenever I'm not saying

11 general, that means I'm talking about a colonel.

12 Q. All right. Can we please now have Article 6 in both versions of

13 the document. I think the page number was 8.

14 You see Article 6, sir, don't you?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Based on Article 6 of the rules says which other organizational

17 units were set up in the public security sector?

18 A. It reads here that in addition to the organizational units

19 established by these rules in order to dispatch business under Article 2,

20 and those are the organizational units that we've been talking about,

21 special and separate police units are now being set up, OGs, operations

22 groups, or rather, special units. That's what the article says.

23 Q. What about the time we are discussing, which organizational units

24 were eventually set up pursuant to Article 6, if you remember?

25 A. I'm positive about two of those, there was the special

Page 23311

1 anti-terrorist unit, we used to call it the SAI, and the helicopter unit

2 was the other. I can't remember if there were any others in addition to

3 these two, but I don't think so.

4 Q. The order in which these administrations are listed in Article 13,

5 what does that suggest to you?

6 A. The order for the most part seems to be following an order that

7 was perhaps established under a law, some law. Obviously those mentioned

8 first are those more important or more serious, such as serious crimes.

9 After that you normally have to deal with public law and order, traffic

10 safety, and such concerns. That was the standard for the order in which

11 these organizational units are mentioned. This was some sort of a

12 ranking, if you like, some sort of hierarchy. Not each of these

13 organizational units ranked the same in terms of salary for their

14 employees in terms of ranks. You see that some of these heads are

15 colonels, they couldn't go any higher than that, and some held a higher

16 rank because their administrations dealt with more serious matters and

17 they were in charge of managing a greater number of employees. Therefore,

18 the order seems to be that of the degree of seriousness or difficulty

19 entailed in their respective areas of work.

20 Q. You've answered this, but was there any difference in terms of

21 their salaries?

22 A. Yes, there was.

23 Q. We shall now be leaving this subject matter concerning status and

24 structure. For as long as you were at the seat of the ministry, did you

25 ever hear or know of any plan to expel Albanians from Kosovo and Metohija

Page 23312

1 in 1998 and 1999?

2 A. No. It's not that I didn't know. I don't think a plan like that

3 ever existed. I simply can't believe that.

4 Q. What about you, were you ordered by anyone at any point in time to

5 seize personal identification documents from Albanians crossing the

6 Albanian -- the Kosovo and Metohija-Albanian border and Macedonian border

7 and to destroy those documents?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you ever issue any such instructions to the SUPs or did you

10 ever perhaps order any of the border police stations to take that course

11 of action?

12 A. No, never.

13 Q. Do you remember that in the summer of 1998 Vlastimir Djordjevic

14 and Obrad Stevanovic between late July and October ever spent any time in

15 Kosovo and Metohija?

16 A. I can't specify the time-period. I know that they did not attend

17 collegium meetings on a regular basis, but I know that they spent some

18 time in the area.

19 Q. Do you perhaps know that Obrad Stevanovic was in Kosovo and

20 Metohija throughout for the duration of the air-strikes --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic, that's very much a leading

22 question, isn't it? What you should be asking is --

23 MR. LUKIC: If he knows where he was.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: -- what he knows rather than tell him a specific

25 version that perhaps you wish to hear -- I don't know, but it sounds very

Page 23313

1 leading.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Let's move on, sir. I am now returning to your own

4 administration. The administration in which you were working was called

5 administration of the border police for foreign nationals and

6 administrative affairs. In order to hurry things along can we just refer

7 to it from now on as border police administration?

8 A. I wouldn't oppose that, no.

9 Q. So what about this border police administration, did it have any

10 organizational units on the ground that were part of its set-up?

11 A. Yes, it had border police stations.

12 Q. Who appointed commanders to these border police stations?

13 A. Chief of sector following proposals by the head of the border

14 police administration.

15 Q. Who had the power to remove them or replace them?

16 A. Same as before, the chief of sector and the procedure followed was

17 much the same.

18 Q. Do you know what Sreten Lukic's job was before he was dispatched

19 to Kosovo and Metohija in June 1998?

20 A. Yes, he was working as assistant chief of the Belgrade SUP.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: My understanding of the chief of sector would be

22 Djordjevic; is that correct?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of the public security sector. I

24 apologise.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: No, to be clear. It seems odd that every police

Page 23314

1 station commander should be appointed by him, but that's what it comes to,

2 that Djordjevic hired and fired. Is that the position?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is correct.

4 However, it was always following a proposal by the chief of sector who had

5 the main say in it. The chief of sector would only decide on it, or

6 rather, issue a document.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. In the document we have, which is 6D1305 and P1072, in 6D1305, at

11 page 14, we can see paragraph 2 and in P1072 at page 20, paragraph 2,

12 please, Article 18. Page 16, 6D1305.

13 In paragraph 2 or in Article 2 can we see the organization of the

14 border police administration at headquarters, that is, its departments and

15 stations of border police?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please explain the organization of the border police

18 administration.

19 A. According to Article 18 and its second paragraph, it reads that

20 the administration comprises three departments, the department for border

21 affairs; the department for foreigners and travel documents, being a

22 separate department; and the department for administration affairs. It is

23 further elaborated in stating that the department for border affairs,

24 which is part of the administration, had its branch offices, one of which

25 is called the branch office for border police and special conditions of

Page 23315

1 international traffic -- excuse me, no. After that we have border police

2 stations. I interpreted it wrongly. They are not part of the department,

3 but they are answerable directly to the department for border police which

4 is part of the administration. These stations are organizational units

5 the same as the offices between -- within the border police department.

6 Q. Is this an exception compared to the other administrations at the

7 seat of the ministry?

8 A. The exception could be that the other administrations do not have

9 territorial organizational units. They only have organizational units at

10 the headquarters, and the entire issue of working in the field apart from

11 the control of crossing the border falls within the competence of the

12 organizational units of the ministry.

13 Q. This administration through its border police stations, what is

14 its immediate task in the field, direct task?

15 A. The administration through its stations performs part of the work

16 concerning border issues, including those which pertain to the control of

17 border crossings at the physical border crossings, that is.

18 Q. Do you know which border police stations were in Kosovo and

19 Metohija in 1998 and 1999 and at which border crossings?

20 A. I am familiar with that. There was the border police station

21 called Djeneral Jankovic, it covered two border crosses, the road crossing

22 at Djeneral Jankovic and the railroad crossing at Djeneral Jankovic or

23 Kacanik. The other station of border police was called Globocica, it

24 covered only one border crossing, that of Globocica. All three border

25 crossings were between the FRY and Macedonia.

Page 23316

1 Then there were those to Albania. There were two stations, one

2 was Vrbnica, with the same border crossing, and Cafa Prusit and the name

3 of the border crossing was the same, so those police stations included

4 only one border crossing each. The next station was at the airport in

5 Pristina, which dealt only with the airport border crossing. There were

6 five stations in total.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, I don't know whether this is important

8 or not, but I do not understand who the border police stations are

9 answerable to in the administration in Belgrade. You told us -- the

10 witness told us there are three departments, but none of them has a name

11 that appears to encompass the border police stations. So who is it they

12 answer to? Is it directly to some individual or is it to one of the

13 sections within the border police administration in Belgrade?

14 MR. LUKIC: I will try to clarify this, Your Honour.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dujkovic, you heard His Honour's question.

16 Can you answer the question?

17 A. Yes, I can. Your Honour, these border police stations were parts

18 of the department for border affairs being one of the three departments

19 within the administration. They -- the commanders of those stations were

20 answerable to the chief of the department --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: You have now answered it, but in our English

22 transcript that was not originally presented but that clarifies it. Thank

23 you.

24 Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 23317

1 Q. Another clarification, please. You said that there was a border

2 police station at the airport in Pristina. For example, were there any

3 differences between the airports in Pristina and Nis?

4 A. No, there was no difference. There, there was another border

5 police station as well which was in charge of that particular border

6 crossing and it was part of the administration department as well.

7 Q. It is outside the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, but however it

8 is close to Pristina?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who provided the equipment for the border police stations to be

11 able to operate?

12 A. It was provided by the Ministry of the Interior. Most frequently

13 it was following a request of the administration, a request sent from the

14 field, and it was done through the logistics administration joint affairs.

15 Q. Who determined what the principal tasks of border police stations

16 were when it comes to their work pertaining to the border -- state border?

17 A. The administration of border police --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer. The

19 interpreter missed a part of the answer.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, part of that answer has been missed, if

21 you could clarify it for us.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. It is not in the transcript. Could you please respond again to

24 the question: Who determined the principal tasks of border police

25 stations concerning their work at the state border?

Page 23318

1 A. Those tasks were determined by the Ministry of the Interior, and

2 within the ministry the bulk of responsibility lay with the border police

3 administration.

4 Q. Did border police stations create their own work-plans?

5 A. Yes, each and every station of border police had their own

6 work-plan, which had to contain the principal tasks and activities

7 determined by the ministry.

8 Q. What about the process of approving the work-plans of border

9 police stations, could you please explain. Was each work-plan approved or

10 were instructions given?

11 A. No work-plan was approved separately. Each commander would have

12 to draft a plan and forward it to the border police administration at the

13 seat of the ministry. The administration, or rather, those responsible,

14 if they had any suggestions to make they could forward them to the station

15 commander so that he could amend his plan.

16 Q. What about the foreigners' administration, did they have their own

17 plans?

18 A. You mean the administration of border police?

19 Q. Yes, you're right.

20 A. Yes, the administration has its own work-plan, which is also

21 drafted based on the principal tasks received by the ministry and the

22 minister.

23 Q. Who approves the work-plans of the border police administration?

24 A. The chief of sector, the same way as before.

25 Q. Who provides instruction on the activities or work of border

Page 23319

1 police stations?

2 A. Such direct instructions were given by the administration of the

3 border police and the chief of the aforementioned department of border

4 police, which is a part of the administration.

5 Q. The instructions or requests for the work of border police

6 stations, can they be made by other administrations as well?

7 A. Other administrations cannot provide instructions, but they can

8 make certain operational requests; and in that case, stations could follow

9 their requests. If they needed to issue instructions for the border

10 police stations, it was done in agreement with the administration itself

11 and it would be done through the administration and forwarded to the

12 respective police stations.

13 Q. Can the minister issue instructions in your line of work?

14 A. Yes, certainly, the minister can.

15 Q. What kind of reports are submitted by border police stations?

16 A. Border police stations submit reports which can differ pertaining

17 to the issue at hand or the event at hand. They can be urgent and

18 periodical, once a month or once a year, for example.

19 Q. Who are those reports submitted to?

20 A. To the administration of border police.

21 Q. Is the MUP staff in Kosovo and Metohija or anyone from the staff,

22 could they instruct or order anything to the border police stations?

23 A. It wouldn't be advisable without the knowledge of the border

24 police administration.

25 Q. At the level of the ministry, what sort of communication is there

Page 23320

1 from the level of the border police stations?

2 A. You mean between the border police stations and the ministry?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. There are different types of or means of communication, via

5 telephone, via dispatches sent to the ministry, and through written

6 reports sent by couriers.

7 Q. After the air-strikes began, were you able to use all these means

8 of communication?

9 A. After the bombardment, communication was made very difficult

10 depending on NATO forces' activities, and there were frequent

11 interruptions. Such interruptions were mainly restrictive. Individual

12 means of communication were inoperative. We used telephone lines or we

13 would lend telephone lines from other entities such as our organizations

14 or individual citizens; however, it was difficult.

15 Q. Can you recall whether you could establish a telephone link say

16 with border crossings or was it done through other organizational units?

17 A. For the most part we communicated with the border crossings

18 directly. The situation was not the same since there were many border

19 crossings in Serbia as well as many police stations. With some

20 communication was far easier, with some it was difficult.

21 Q. What about the border crossings in Kosovo?

22 A. Concerning those, as far as I know one could talk to them on the

23 phone; however, those lines were down later for the most part. We were

24 able to receive brief pieces of information with as little text as

25 possible so as not to impose a burden on the system that was in place.

Page 23321

1 However, I'm not very familiar with the technical aspects of that. We

2 would draft a message and we would hand it over to the competent

3 communications service which had to come up with a way to transit that.

4 Q. When you were doing -- when they were doing their job on the state

5 border, what legislation was applied by border police stations?

6 A. Practically all the legislation that concerns the Ministry of the

7 Interior, but mainly in their line of work, mainly laws regarding the

8 crossing of state border and movement across border crossings, the

9 legislation concerning foreign nationals and travel documents. There were

10 three federal laws. One was the Law on State Border Crossing and Movement

11 in the Border Belt; the second was the Law on the Movement of Residents

12 and Foreign Nationals; and the third was the Law on Travel Documents of

13 the Nationals of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or in earlier times

14 SFRY. Those were laws that were passed at the time of the previous

15 Yugoslavia, but they are still in force today, they are still followed.

16 And in addition to those laws they, as the organizational unit of

17 the ministry and as policemen, they also applied all other legislation

18 relevant to the Ministry of the Interior, mainly republican legislation,

19 such as the laws on the safety of traffic, laws on public order and peace,

20 criminal legislation, et cetera. Although they are called border police,

21 they were in fact universal organizational units because they had to act

22 according to procedure whenever an incident or a criminal act occurred.

23 Q. To the best of your knowledge, during the air-strikes were

24 documents checked at border crossings in Kosovo and Metohija?

25 A. They were regularly checked up to a certain moment when there

Page 23322

1 occurred a flooding of the state border by people wishing to cross, most

2 of whom had no documents at all. This was directly linked to the

3 situation on the ground, it had to do with the deterioration caused by the

4 war and those people, judging by their appearance, their conduct, and

5 everything else, looked like people who were in danger. They were looking

6 for safety elsewhere, and that caused a big push towards border crossings

7 with Macedonia and Albania.

8 Q. Do you know the usual number of policemen in one shift at one

9 border crossing, and I mean border crossings in Kosovo and Metohija?

10 A. In view of the particular nature of Kosovo and Metohija, there

11 could be four to seven policemen in one shift at a border crossing.

12 Q. And what is the job of the policemen manning a border police

13 station at a state border crossing?

14 A. To control traffic across the border, to check the documents of

15 all people crossing the border, to check the export and import of certain

16 objects prescribed by the ministry, such as weapons, ammunition, printed

17 matter. But they always did that in conjunction with the customs office

18 because the customs office had its own competencies over these goods. And

19 another one of their tasks was to prevent the import of prohibited

20 materials, such as weapons, ammunition, drugs, narcotic drugs, that is,

21 and other goods that are prohibited and that -- which are crime-related.

22 And they also had the task to check the movement and stop certain people

23 at the border crossing, and of course that goes without saying to protect

24 themselves and all the personnel manning the station.

25 Q. I did not announce and we'll not be using, but just for reference

Page 23323

1 3D1122 is the Law on the State Border Crossing and Movement Within the

2 Border Belt.

3 Now, based on that law I will ask you a couple of questions,

4 although you don't have it in your set of documents --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, that document has not been admitted as

6 yet, but if it's a law it should be done by agreement I would have

7 thought.

8 Mr. Visnjic may have the answer.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have the answer.

10 I just received a report that the translation has been completed and it

11 will soon be uploaded into e-court later today. Then we will make the

12 submission we have to make regarding that document.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Mr. Lukic.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Dujkovic, what is the basic document for crossing the state

17 border?

18 A. A travel document.

19 Q. How about an ID, can it be used to cross the state border?

20 A. Only if we have such an agreement with a neighbouring state.

21 Q. In 1999 was there an agreement between the Federal Republic of

22 Yugoslavia on one hand and Macedonia or Albania on the other hand allowing

23 people to cross the border just with an ID?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What is the visa system?

Page 23324

1 A. That is a system under which approvals are issued for a person to

2 enter a state with a valid travel document or to leave a country. It's

3 usually a clause that is entered into a travel document, and exceptionally

4 it can also be issued on a separate piece of paper.

5 Q. We have been told that we may not use the document 3D1122, but

6 just as a reference for my next question I will invoke Article 67 and ask

7 you: Are any records kept at border crossings?

8 A. Yes, records are kept, all the relevant records covering what the

9 police do and what is going on at the border crossing.

10 Q. Could you enumerate some of the records that are kept at border

11 crossings by the police.

12 A. I can. For instance, at every border crossing record is kept of

13 the number of persons crossing the border, either going in or out of the

14 country, especially, or rather, separately for foreign nationals and

15 separately for local citizens. Records are kept of visas issued at border

16 crossings or tourist cards. Records are kept of measures taken towards

17 persons crossing the state border, any case where the police exercised

18 their powers is recorded. And one important record is the bulletin of

19 daily events, wherein all incidents are entered chronologically with a

20 description of the incident and the description of steps taken in response

21 to that incident.

22 Q. Thank you. I will now ask you something about representatives of

23 the KVM. What was the approach to KVM representatives?

24 A. That is the Kosovo Verification Mission. They were foreign

25 representatives of the OSCE who stayed in Yugoslavia based on an agreement

Page 23325

1 between Yugoslavia and the OSCE. Based on that agreement, they enjoyed

2 diplomatic status, and that implied a certain treatment of them by the

3 state authorities. I have to stress that people on the ground were told

4 specifically concerning the KVM to pay special attention, to be

5 forthcoming, to accommodate them in every way, even above the usual

6 standard.

7 Q. Thank you. How did representatives of the KVM prove their status?

8 A. On the ground they would produce a diplomatic ID they received

9 from our foreign ministry, and that document was issued based on their

10 passport and their diplomatic visa with which they came into the country.

11 But on the ground even that ID was sufficient.

12 Q. Who has jurisdiction over issuing visas and IDs for

13 representatives of diplomatic missions?

14 A. The foreign ministry.

15 Q. What was the job of the police?

16 A. You mean in state border crossings or inland?

17 Q. Everywhere.

18 A. You mean by the police, the police could only check their

19 documents and visas that were in the passports. Holders of such passports

20 are outside the competence of the police, the police may not ask for any

21 additional visas, approvals, or take any other steps. They can just check

22 their documents and put a stamp in their passport when they cross the

23 border.

24 Q. And what was the job of the customs office?

25 A. The customs service is generally responsible for controlling the

Page 23326

1 transport of goods across the border, and as far as I know they too had to

2 abide by international regulations governing these persons. But I cannot

3 tell you exactly what exactly their entitlements were in relation to the

4 transport of goods. I couldn't tell you, for instance, which goods these

5 persons could take in and out duty-free, although I know that they had

6 some entitles like that. But the attitude of the customs officers towards

7 them was the same as that of the policemen.

8 Q. You said that you were informed by border -- the stations. Were

9 you ever informed of any cases of mistreatment of persons crossing the

10 state border?

11 A. There may have been individual complaints by citizens about the

12 work of the police, complaints about inappropriate behaviour, but it's not

13 something that was allowed, authorised. Measures were taken against such

14 policemen.

15 Q. Were any instructions issued to that effect?

16 A. Well, that kind of instruction could never be issued, it would be

17 illegal from the outset.

18 Q. What instructions were issued at that time, if you remember?

19 A. At that time instructions were to increase alertness, to increase

20 checks of persons crossing the border, primarily to prevent arms smuggling

21 and to prevent people with all sorts of intentions and motives from

22 crossing the border. And as far as members of the KVM and other

23 diplomatic missions are concerned, the instruction was to act

24 professionally and treat them fairly.

25 Q. Speaking of civilians, when did people begin to leave Kosovo and

Page 23327

1 Metohija, if you remember?

2 A. If you mean large migrations, in the 1990s certain categories of

3 the population left in greater numbers than usual, most of them legally

4 but also illegally, mainly to western countries.

5 Q. In 1999 when did the first mass movements of the -- sorry, 1999,

6 when did the first mass movements of the population begin?

7 A. Well --

8 Q. I want to know when it began.

9 A. The date?

10 Q. Was there any event that would help you put a date on it, before

11 or after the air-strikes?

12 A. Just a day or two after the air-strikes started I believe people

13 started crossing the border in large numbers, and later on there was an

14 escalation, bottlenecks occurred on the border, and general crisis you

15 might say began.


17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe it's -- we have to stop now.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I was going to say is it a convenient time

19 to interrupt you.

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: So we'll have our break at this stage.

22 Mr. Dujkovic, we have to have a break at this stage for half an

23 hour. Could you meanwhile please leave the courtroom with the usher.

24 And we shall resume at ten minutes to 1.00.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 23328

1 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

3 [The witness takes the stand].

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, please continue.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Can we continue, sir?

7 A. Yes, go ahead, please.

8 Q. We were talking about the civilians leaving before the break,

9 weren't we? What about border police stations, did those keep any records

10 about that and were they submitting any chronological or statistical

11 report?

12 A. Concerning these persons crossing the state border, the border

13 police stations kept certain statistical records showing the numbers of

14 people crossing the state border, and this was done in terms of their

15 ethnic breakdown or citizenship. There were two categories in practical

16 terms: Nationals and foreigners. Nothing more specific than that in

17 terms of these persons' origin. There were no individual lists if that's

18 what you mean.

19 Q. After the air-strikes started and large numbers of people started

20 leaving Kosovo and Metohija, was it still possible to maintain regular

21 checks in terms of checking travel documents and anything else that that

22 entailed?

23 A. When the border crossings started being clogged up, because the

24 borders were flooded with people, even women and children, arriving at the

25 border with no proper travel documents to their names, it was impossible

Page 23329

1 to go on checking their documents. Some of them were not even in the

2 possession of appropriate documents. This wasn't something that could be

3 done over a short period of time because on account of the lie of the land

4 along the border there were bottlenecks forming there. I apologise, I

5 have to say this too. In the neighbouring territory the situation was not

6 quite the same as on our side in terms of the regime that these checks

7 entailed. On the other side, as far as I knew, checks were even more

8 rigorous in terms of holding people back and it's possible that they even

9 made lists containing the names of all the individuals crossing the

10 border.

11 Q. You say in the neighbouring territory, what exactly do you mean?

12 A. I mean the territory of the neighbouring state, the neighbouring

13 country, and I mean the work performed by their border police.

14 Q. Which country do you have in mind?

15 A. Specifically when I talk about those border crossings in Kosovo, I

16 mean Macedonia and Albania.

17 Q. Are you familiar with any specific examples of the state border

18 being crossed elsewhere, not at any of the official border crossings or

19 with no valid travel documents at roughly the same point in time but

20 something that didn't have to do with Kosovo and Metohija necessarily?

21 A. Yes, I do know several examples of circumstances like that

22 arising, even under the Law on State Borders that applied at the time it

23 was possible to allow persons to cross the border in places with no

24 designated border crossings. In the case of major emergencies, the

25 natural disasters, or anything in particular that was outside the ordinary

Page 23330

1 going on in the neighbouring territory, for example, war or armed clashes,

2 any situation in which the lives of civilians might have been at risk.

3 I'm familiar with several such examples in more recent history, for

4 example, along the border to Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

5 Likewise, a large number of people crossed into Serbia's territory without

6 being checked. It wasn't possible to check those persons simply because

7 those persons in the majority of cases carried no travel documents or

8 maybe they were carrying travel documents or other documents that would

9 not have entitled them to cross a state border. They weren't valid travel

10 documents. Those were refugees or persons who had been expelled from

11 their homes, mostly from Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, and these people

12 were trying to cross the border and enter Serbia. In this case also we

13 were facing large numbers of people, sometimes tens of thousands,

14 attempting to make the crossing, sometimes as many as 100.000 or more.

15 And this happened more than once. I'm talking about attempted crossings

16 from Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Some examples from a more remote

17 past based on my own experience, I'm talking now about the border to

18 Romania during the revolution --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the relevance of this? At the moment I

20 don't even know where the witness is saying that there were -- there was

21 the possibility of crossing into Macedonia or Albania at points other than

22 the official border crossings, but I do know a bit more about Croatia,

23 Bosnia, and I am about to learn about Romania. Now, are these of

24 relevance to us?

25 MR. LUKIC: Just trying to explain Balkans.

Page 23331

1 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. It's a matter for you to decide if you

2 think that's going to help us.

3 MR. LUKIC: We won't dwell for too long on this.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You started telling us about Romania, sir, briefly, if you can,

7 please.

8 A. Well, similar circumstances prevailed at the time. People from

9 Romania were crossing the state borders at official border crossings and

10 elsewhere. Because of the upheaval in Romania at the time, the fall of

11 Ceausescu. If I may complete this thought, there had been a situation

12 like that in Hungary a long time ago back in 1956 with the Soviet

13 invasion.

14 Q. The Presiding Judge has just instructed us as to what he would

15 like to hear. What about Albania and Macedonia, did people only take the

16 official border crossings to get into Macedonia and Albania or did they

17 also attempt to cross elsewhere?

18 A. Yes, and on a massive scale. It wasn't even possible for them to

19 use the official border crossings since this was an area that was teeming

20 with their own armed units. Therefore, it would not have been advisable

21 to use any other possibility. The only option was to use the official

22 border crossing because that was the only safe option to pick. It is

23 possible that crossings occurred elsewhere, but certainly not to my

24 knowledge.

25 Q. Do you perhaps know whether there was any order at any point in

Page 23332

1 time issued by your administration or the foreign ministry to destroy

2 personal identification documents?

3 A. No, no such order could possibly have been issued and no such

4 action taken.

5 Q. When you say, I don't see how there would have been any purpose to

6 anything like that, let me ask you this: Can you please explain what

7 types of records were kept in relation to Serbia's and Yugoslavia's

8 citizens?

9 A. You mean at border crossings?

10 Q. No, generally speaking.

11 A. You mean the police or generally speaking?

12 Q. Generally speaking.

13 A. Well, what I know is this: Each citizen has several different

14 records. When they're born, their information is entered into what we

15 call the birth register, two separate copies of this document are kept,

16 even in separate buildings, because that's what the regulations say must

17 be done, that's the procedure. There are similar types of records as well

18 kept in the same place as the birth register, I'm talking about the death

19 register and the marriage register as well as what we called the book of

20 citizens. But this is under a different ministry, this is not something

21 that the Ministry of the Interior does. These are birth, marriage, and

22 death register offices and they keep these records. Based on such

23 records, a person can always get a special certificate issued based on the

24 information contained therein.

25 As for the Ministry of the Interior, likewise they keep records

Page 23333

1 about status and about individual citizens. From the moment of birth as

2 soon as a person is recorded into the birth register, the notary or birth

3 register official must forward this type of information to the Ministry of

4 the Interior; then the Ministry of the Interior, based on this, determines

5 a personal identification number for each and every citizen because it's

6 the ministry that must determine this number, assign this number, and keep

7 track of it. This is then submitted, the other copy of the birth

8 register, to the Ministry of the Interior.

9 Each person from their birth on must be registered by the Ministry

10 of the Interior, also in order to keep track of their place of residence.

11 This is what we call the population register, and each person must be

12 recorded in that document, in that book. Based on this, as soon as a

13 person comes of age there are certain entitlements and rights that this

14 person can now exercise. For example, having an ID issued and some other

15 rights that have to do with a person's residence.

16 In relation to this residence register, there is a type of record

17 that is set up earlier on. IDs issued to all those who under the law are

18 entitled to have one issued. There are several types of records, so many

19 in fact, that it would have been impossible for a person to simply not be

20 recorded anywhere at all. Information on this type of thing would

21 certainly have been preserved.

22 Q. For example, the ID register, what exactly does it comprise?

23 A. The ID register is kept in several different ways, one way being

24 this. Each person applying for an ID is recorded in a register, in a

25 book, this is a handwritten entry, those made containing all the

Page 23334

1 information that is required. Next, based on any information contained in

2 a written application by that person, a personal file is compiled and

3 deposited in a ledger, in a system of files which is normally in

4 alphabetical order. And then all of this is transformed into an

5 electronic database. So to all practical intents there are three

6 different ways to record this type of situation.

7 Q. You mentioned the citizen identification number. We haven't

8 discussed this yet, but can you tell us if one looks at that number what

9 exactly can one tell, how many digits?

10 A. 13 digits. If you look at it you can tell the person's age, date

11 of birth, and not everyone can tell but those who are familiar with the

12 system can see all of this including a person's place of residence. There

13 are some other numbers there which are mainly used to distinguish between

14 various people in order to preclude the possibility of two persons ending

15 up with the same number. This has to be computerised because that allows

16 us to monitor the situation, and this applies throughout Serbia, just to

17 keep accidents from happening, for example, someone being awarded the same

18 number and issued in Belgrade.

19 Q. This is a separate register, right?

20 A. Yes, this is a separate register that separate laws and special

21 regulations apply to, and this is something that in our country is under

22 the jurisdiction of the Ministry of the Interior.

23 Q. At what age is this number assigned?

24 A. At birth.

25 Q. Do you know if these records, registers, and files were relocated

Page 23335

1 before the air-strikes started?

2 A. That depended on the secretariat, but for the most part those

3 records were put away somewhere safe. For example, some ledgers, some

4 registers, were taken elsewhere and sometimes entire files were moved,

5 these files were sometimes quite extensive and bulky. There were some

6 cases in Belgrade in some major cities where they couldn't be moved

7 because they were to hefty, rather, there was an attempt to protect them

8 in a different way. Most of the ledgers and registers were put away

9 somewhere safe and then many different measures were taken at the time in

10 order to preserve these records.

11 Q. What about after the war, did anyone come into the possession of

12 these records in Kosovo and Metohija; and if so, who?

13 A. Once the war was declared over and once the UNMIK administration

14 had entered Kosovo based on my memory and on reports that I received,

15 field reports, for the most part those records were officially handed

16 over. Sometimes they were simply left behind sometimes on the account of

17 the situation that prevailed on the ground at the time. And then the

18 UNMIK people simply took possession of those records and registers of

19 their own accord. As far as I know, most of the records have been

20 preserved. I think in the Kosovska Mitrovica secretariat some of the RD

21 files were destroyed, but the ledgers and registers have been preserved.

22 Regardless of that, this is all part of the electronic database which I

23 assume must be in a safe place, the server, that is, maybe it's even

24 outside Kosovo. I'm not familiar with its exact whereabouts.

25 Q. All of the records we mentioned, do they distinguish between

Page 23336

1 citizens based on their ethnicity?

2 A. No, not a single one of them.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just ask one thing before we move away from

4 it.

5 You were there until or you worked until 2005; is that right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I worked at the

7 administration -- excuse me, no. At the administration of border police

8 and foreigners I worked there until 2000. After that I was sent to

9 another organizational unit of the ministry, this being the police school.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And when you left to go to the police school, you

11 would be aware then where the server was for the electronic database, I

12 assume?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was not within our

14 purview. We didn't need to know these technical details. I don't know

15 about that. I might inquire informally and we might be able to find it

16 out, otherwise there was no need for me to know.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: You seem to know a lot of detail, but -- and you

18 seem to know that there is an electronic database or is that something

19 you're speculating about?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I know for sure that there is

21 an electronic database, but I don't want to speculate as to its technical

22 aspects. I can only presume that due to technical reasons those servers

23 may be in three different locations, maybe more. For sure one of them is

24 in Belgrade where the seat of the ministry is. As for Vojvodina, which is

25 another province of ours, I know that the servers can also be found in

Page 23337

1 Novi Sad for technical reasons. They had already been there during a

2 period of time, and then when there were some changes within governmental

3 structures and relations between different bodies of the state, it simply

4 remained there and was not physically transferred to Belgrade. I don't

5 know whether it applies to Kosovo and Metohija as well, though. For some

6 reasons, these may have stayed there or may have been connected to some

7 other servers. I don't know such details.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. To follow Judge Bonomy's line of questions, I wanted to ask you

12 whether you could access those servers from your work station, from your

13 office.

14 A. From my office I could access all records that I had been

15 authorised to use. Personally I didn't deal with that since I had no time

16 or need to, but my clerks, my employees, within the administration

17 following their job descriptions were able to use such registers. Very

18 few requests or tasks can be resolved without establishing contact with

19 that database first.

20 Q. Did you know that, for example, even Slovenia can use that system?

21 A. Maybe at the time when the SFRY was still a single state, there

22 may have been such links; but after that each of the republics established

23 its own information system. As to any mutual cooperation between the

24 systems relies on the people working there. I don't know whether there

25 was such a possibility to enter any records of other republics.

Page 23338

1 Q. What is your administration in charge of?

2 A. The administration I used to work for had a broad range of

3 competences. In a way, artificially it was turned into a single

4 administration, whereas it should have been two or so. In any case, I

5 know that two administrations were created subsequently within the

6 ministry. As for border issues, that would be one. Another group would

7 be the issues pertaining to the movements of foreigners and suppressing

8 illegal migration. The third group of tasks would deal with travel

9 documents of nationals. The fourth group of tasks would have to do with

10 weapons and ammunition in possession of citizens and entities, and the

11 last group of tasks would be the so-called legal affairs which dealt with

12 things such as residence, personal identification numbers, issuing of IDs,

13 public gatherings, and other administrative matters that we call them in

14 our slang. However, some administrative issues are covered by other

15 domains as well.

16 Q. On top of all this, did you also work on the matters pertaining to

17 legal residence of our citizens abroad?

18 A. Yes, that was one of the tasks, the issue of issuing travel

19 documents, suppressing and detecting abuse of travel documents, and the

20 issues of our citizens residing abroad. Given that when they reside

21 abroad they can also exercise certain rights pertaining to travel

22 documents, and in that regard there should be a link established with our

23 administration. It also deals with certain situations of our citizens

24 residing abroad in case they need to return to the country, forcibly or

25 against their wish. Then that would have to have been coordinated with

Page 23339

1 our administration in other state organs. That was within the area

2 pertaining to travel documents affairs.

3 Q. I want to ask you something about identity cards in detail. For

4 the sake of the transcript I will go over a few documents, but I will not

5 be tendering them or using them here. We have the Law on the Issuing of

6 IDs which is 6D1418, and the Law on Identity Cards which is P1832

7 [Realtime transcript read in error "P1382"]. In times of peace,

8 Mr. Dujkovic, how old does one need to be to be issued with an ID?

9 A. In normal peacetime situations under the law prescribing that, any

10 person older than 18 has the right and obligation to be in possession of

11 an ID.

12 Q. Could anyone get an ID if they were younger than 18; and if so, at

13 what age?

14 A. Yes, according to the rules such a situation was envisaged. A

15 minor older than 15 could request to be issued with an ID, although there

16 was no such obligation. People younger than 15 years of age under the law

17 could be in possession of an ID if such a request was made by their

18 custodians or parents; however, such situations occurred seldom. I don't

19 even know of any of them. This is sort of a right they could enjoy, but I

20 don't know what situations required that. Perhaps if someone needed to

21 have a document which would assist in identifying a person.

22 Q. During my career I met such situations in cases when minors would

23 complete marriages?

24 A. Yes, and if they were younger than 15 and if they wanted to

25 exercise certain rights as minors and if they needed identification papers

Page 23340

1 for that.

2 Q. Does the fact that minors do not possess IDs mean that they do not

3 enjoy a certain status?

4 A. That is incorrect. As I explained, when a person is born his or

5 her parent or custodian and the institution where the birth took place,

6 all these have to report the birth to the competent office and that person

7 is entered into the birth register. What follows is the procedure I

8 described. It all happens within a short period of time. The notary

9 notifies the Ministry of the Interior, primarily in order to assign a

10 personal identification number, and since we have another copy of the

11 birth register and that needs to include the entry as well. The parent or

12 the custodian is legally bound to have the newborn registered at a certain

13 location so that the newborn could receive or have data about its

14 residence. Otherwise such things are done following a request and only

15 pursuant to the registers that exist with the relevant bodies.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Dujkovic, in your statement and also in other

17 evidence we've heard we've been referred to a change made during the war

18 reducing the age of which a personal identity card was compulsory to the

19 age of 14. Do you know why that was the case?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are situations, for example,

21 times of war when we have a state of war in place, then special regulation

22 is put in place, decrees with the force of law, which bypass the regular

23 legislative procedure and is put in place by other organs. For example,

24 following a governmental proposal the president can sign such a decree.

25 Such decrees are issued to --

Page 23341

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Dujkovic, we know -- we've had evidence about

2 that. All I want to know is whether you know why this change was made.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. As far as I know, in

4 the explanation that I could read it states that it was so that the work

5 of the Ministry of the Interior in wartime conditions would be made

6 easier. The explanation was rather brief and it is not under my direct

7 competence; therefore, I had nothing to do with such initiatives. It is

8 done by another office in our administration which deals with systematic

9 legal affairs.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: You know no more than that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a regulation we had to

12 implement and we did. I don't know what the reasons were behind it, at

13 least no other reasons apart from the ones I stated to make the work of

14 the ministry easier, since identifying persons in the field falls under

15 the competence of the Ministry of the Interior. I personally think it was

16 also in the best interest of those people so that they could enjoy their

17 rights more easily. I noticed an interesting occurrence at the time, and

18 that is that young men, mostly men, were proudly -- proud at the time to

19 be able to possess an ID. We had queues and people came in in bundles

20 asking for such documents.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: So as far as you're aware, this had nothing to do

22 with trying to get on top of the threat of young Albanian men taking up

23 arms against Serbia?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That was not

25 possible, since that regulation was uniform for the entire state. In

Page 23342

1 practice it was used even more in other parts of the country than in

2 Kosovo and Metohija. I'm trying to say that citizens were quite

3 disciplined when respecting that regulation and it could not have been

4 applied selectively.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, could you then explain -- give me a concrete

6 example of how this would make the work of the Ministry of the Interior

7 easier in the time of conflict and how it would make people or give people

8 the opportunity to enjoy their rights more easily in a time of conflict.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for example, one of the

10 ways for them to enjoy their rights in a more accessible way is to be less

11 restricted in their movements. Since in such circumstances movement is

12 hindered, sometimes even prohibited during certain periods. The competent

13 bodies controlling the movement of persons in the field can establish

14 their identity much more easily. The difference between a minor and an

15 adult visually speaking is sometimes difficult to detect. On many

16 occasions we have people who appear to be adults, but once you see his or

17 her ID you realize it's a minor. This may have been one of the reasons

18 why the age was reduced. It also has to do with another regulation on --

19 concerning the Law on Identity Cards, which states that people younger

20 than 18 could also have IDs; however, this regulation made it obligatory.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Dujkovic, that would suggest to me that the

22 objective was to exercise more control rather than to give more freedom,

23 which would make sense of course. But lay that aside, it would appear

24 from what you've said that the objective was to exercise more control over

25 people between the age of 14 and 18.

Page 23343

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see that as a

2 possibility for those people to be more secure. For example, a policeman

3 might not be able to ascertain the identity of a person due to various

4 circumstances, inability to establish communication, we don't know where

5 his or her parents are, or movements of citizens, and it's in such

6 circumstances easier to identify a person with an ID rather than going

7 back to his parents to ascertain his or her identity since it may have

8 been impossible in the given circumstances. It could be but one of the

9 reasons and we could probably come up with more.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 Mr. Lukic, the two documents you referred to just a little while

12 ago 6D1418 and P1382 are also not admitted at this stage.

13 MR. LUKIC: 6D is not translated, so that's why I'm trying to

14 avoid --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Are these documents then to be the subject of a

16 motion later?

17 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Sometimes the questions of us lawyers might appear to be

21 meaningless but I still have to ask you: What if a person loses, damages,

22 or destroys his or her own ID, for example, it ends up in a washing

23 machine in the pocket of a shirt, is their status as a citizen thereby

24 compromised?

25 A. No, it's not. Obviously they can get this sort of document

Page 23344

1 re-issued, even if it's lost. This is not something that needs proving.

2 People are simply believed when they state that they have lost their ID.

3 This is not something that is verified. Their identity is determined

4 based on information already in our possession. Some files even contain

5 photographs such as the ID register. If we're dealing with a person who

6 is not in our records, no ID can be issued regardless of the person's

7 statement or application.

8 Q. What about --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, did the ID card itself have a

10 photograph?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 Mr. Lukic.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. What about the files, the print of the right index finger is to be

16 found there too, right?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. What if a person loses, destroys, or damages their ID card

19 somewhere abroad?

20 A. This is seldom the case. This is not the type of situation that

21 is frequently encountered because no person is under an obligation to

22 carry ID on them abroad. As soon as they're back in their country of

23 origin they'll apply for a new one. For example, if the situation is that

24 our citizens can use their ID card to cross the border to another country,

25 then this type of situation is reported to the relevant body in that other

Page 23345

1 country. There are consular relations. This person is then allowed to

2 return to their country of origin. As soon as they are back in their

3 country of origin they can get a new document.

4 Q. What if a person loses, destroys, or damages their passport while

5 abroad?

6 A. If that is the case, they have to go to our embassy or consulate

7 in that country in order to retrieve a new document allowing them to

8 return to their country of origin or alternatively to stay in the country

9 they find themselves in, for example, if they work in that country. These

10 documents are issued following approval by the relevant bodies inside the

11 country and this approval can only be issued once the relevant files have

12 been inspected containing information about the applicant.

13 Q. What if someone leaves the country with no personal documents on

14 them, regardless whether these have been destroyed, discarded somewhere

15 along the border or somewhere in the middle of Kosovo and Metohija, how

16 would these persons be able to return with no documents while not being in

17 possession of proper documents?

18 A. These are standard situations and have nothing to do with the

19 situations that we have been discussing today. What was happening along

20 the border to Albania and Macedonia, but there were other situations. If

21 we're dealing with a limited number of people, the procedure is the same,

22 they have to report to the appropriate embassy or consulate, they had to

23 shed light of the circumstances how this came about that they were now no

24 longer in possession of their travel documents or any other documents, and

25 their travel document is declared to be valid in order to facilitate their

Page 23346

1 return to their country of origin. The procedure that is followed is the

2 same. You can't have an application like that unless you have information

3 from the files showing that this person is indeed a national and that they

4 have residence in the Republic of Serbia. In such cases, applications of

5 this nature simply cannot be turned down.

6 Q. All right. And what sort of rule applies to those who left Kosovo

7 and Metohija in 1999, is there some sort of legal decision about this and

8 what do you think the procedure would have been that would have been

9 followed in cases such as these?

10 A. I don't think it's a legal solution for situations like these.

11 All I can do is speculate at the time. Perhaps I can liken this to

12 another situation that we have back in our country these days and for the

13 last several years the same type of situation has prevailed.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Dujkovic, can I just ask you to speak a little

15 more slowly to assist the interpreters. Thank you.

16 Please continue.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

18 We have this situation and we still have it, tens of thousands,

19 hundreds of thousands of our citizens, 150.000 citizens of ours happen to

20 be somewhere abroad in Western countries, most of them in Germany,

21 Switzerland, Austria, Norway, Sweden, and so on and so forth. How do

22 these persons get there? Illegally or perhaps they had lost their legal

23 status and then subsequently refused to return to our country. They are

24 reluctant to return to our country. They apply to the appropriate bodies,

25 mostly they state reasons such as their human rights being violated or in

Page 23347

1 danger in our country. Many of these people end up as asylum seekers,

2 that is what we call them. In the case of these people, their return

3 might prove very difficult, firstly because they refuse this themselves,

4 they will not do this of their own free will, and then secondly, those

5 countries have the commitment to facilitate their return. And there is

6 normally a separate procedure in place, there are agreements in place

7 between our country and these other countries on particular cases and

8 situations and the conditions under which these people can return to our

9 country. And then the procedure takes its course. It's possible that

10 there might be other similar agreements, and this is merely an assumption,

11 between our country and those other countries where these persons happen

12 to be who are illegally there. And this might facilitate their return.

13 Maybe there might be another procedure in place that might turn out to be

14 more or less complex.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Do you know if all the records have been preserved and passports

17 and ID cards issued?

18 A. Yes, all the records have been preserved. I'm not aware of a

19 single case in which a person was refused the right to be issued with an

20 ID or a document simply because their information was missing from the

21 files. There have been cases of incomplete files or those that have not

22 been preserved in their entirety. I talked about Kosovska Mitrovica, I

23 know for sure about that one. I don't know about any other secretariat.

24 I know that they kept the books, but the register was destroyed when the

25 building, the MUP building, there was targeted by a shell or bombed.

Page 23348

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 6D1324 brought up

2 in e-court. Thank you.

3 MR. STAMP: This, just to make an observation, is another document

4 that was notified to us after the time stipulated in the Court order, and

5 also there is no translation.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, what do you say about that?

7 MR. LUKIC: It's all true, Your Honour, but let me check one ...

8 [Defence counsel confer]

9 MR. LUKIC: Because only during the proofing with this witness we

10 realized that we should -- this is the last chance to use this document.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, do you object to it being used? Is

12 there a particular difficulty for you?

13 MR. STAMP: The difficulty of course is that when we are notified

14 late about untranslated documents, there is very little we can do because

15 of the resource limitations we have. However, if the witness is the only

16 person, as I think is being represented by my friend, if the witness is

17 the only person who can speak about the document, I don't know how we can

18 responsibly maintain an objection.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: It seems a fairly short document. If you need any

20 particular part translated, then it can be read.

21 So we will allow you, Mr. Lukic, to use this document.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 And I thank my learned friend as well.

24 Q. We have no translation for this document, Mr. Dujkovic. Can you

25 please read who issued this document, when -- that's it for now.

Page 23349

1 A. The header reads: "Office of the National Council for cooperation

2 with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia on the

3 11th of November -- on the 11th of September, 2007," signed by head of

4 office Dusan Ignjatovic. This was submitted to counsel Dragan Ivetic.

5 Q. Can you please read item 2.

6 A. Item 2 reads -- it literal says: "An individual named Sadiku

7 Sadija born in 1978 in Kosovska Mitrovica residing in Zabare village,

8 Kosovska Mitrovica municipality has no information on any personal

9 documents issued this was checked through the records of Serbia's MUP,

10 fine, and this has been established by checking the records of Serbia's

11 MUP. It has been established that this person has not been registered or

12 recorded."

13 Q. After everything we've heard today, do you allow for the

14 possibility that this person Sadiku Sadija --

15 MR. STAMP: [Previous translation continues]... a very leading

16 question.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: It sounds very leading, Mr. Lukic. I think you

18 should simply ask him for his explanation.

19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. [Interpretation] You've heard the Presiding Judge. What's your

21 explanation?

22 A. My explanation is this person was not recorded anywhere, not in

23 any of the registers discussed or mentioned today, specifically the body

24 that ran its check looked for this information in Serbia's MUP and

25 subsequently ascertained that this person's information was not to be

Page 23350

1 found in any of the files including the electronic database, which means

2 nowhere at all.

3 Q. Thank you. I do believe we have to break for the day, since our

4 time seems to be up.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: I note that the area involved is Kosovska

6 Mitrovica, where you said there had been a difficulty, but that would not

7 explain the absence of records. Is that what you're saying?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. What follows from

9 this, in fact, is that this body has certain records based on which one

10 might be able to ascertain beyond any doubt at all that this person was

11 recorded, but this person was most certainly not recorded in the area of

12 Kosovska Mitrovica or anywhere else in Serbia for that matter.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I -- I obviously didn't make myself clear. I

14 thought that some records in Kosovska Mitrovica had been destroyed.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour. The

16 ID files were destroyed.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: So that would not explain the total absence of

18 records that -- in relation to this person; that's the position?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is right. What I'm trying to

20 say is this person appears not to have been recorded in any of the various

21 registers.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.

23 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I wonder if this could be conveniently

24 dealt with here and now. I -- the transcript 85 -- page 85, 15 gives a

25 name. I wonder if he could be asked to repeat the name. I don't think

Page 23351

1 any name was recorded on the transcript in full.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, 85, 15?

3 Could you again, Mr. Dujkovic, look at item 2 in the document and

4 give us again the name of the person.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. Sadija Sadiku, a lady.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 MR. STAMP: Lastly, Your Honour, I think my friend erroneously

8 referred to the law on identification cards as P1382 and indicated that

9 that was not in evidence or had not been translated. It is in fact P1832,

10 it is in evidence and has been translated.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: End on a high, Mr. Lukic.

12 Mr. Dujkovic, we have to bring our proceedings for the day to an

13 end at this stage. Unfortunately we cannot finish your evidence today.

14 You will have to come back tomorrow, that will be at 9.00 in this

15 courtroom. Meanwhile between now and then it is an important rule that

16 you have no communication whatsoever with anyone about any aspect of the

17 evidence in this case. Because you're a witness in the witness box, there

18 is no possibility of you discussing with anyone any aspect of the

19 evidence. Please bear that in mind and return to resume your evidence at

20 9.00 tomorrow. You may now leave the courtroom with the usher.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I understand.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 For the attention of others, because of a Judges' plenary meeting

24 tomorrow, our -- we'll be sitting rather unusual hours. The first session

25 will be from 9.00 till 10.30; the next will be from 10.50 until 11.50, so

Page 23352

1 just one hour.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 JUDGE BONOMY: And then we will resume at 2.30 in the afternoon

4 until 4.00, so until 9.00 tomorrow.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day of

7 February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.