Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25291

 1                           Tuesday, 15 April 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Pavkovic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Good morning, everyone.  We will now continue with

 7     the cross-examination of Mr. Zlatkovic.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Good morning again, Mr. Zlatkovic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  Your cross-examination will begin in a moment.

12     Please bear in mind that the solemn declaration to speak the truth which

13     you gave at the beginning of your evidence yesterday continues to apply

14     to your evidence today.

15             Mr. Bakrac, do you have questions?

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.  I'll

17     be brief.  I may have three to four questions.

18                           WITNESS:  RADOVAN ZLATKOVIC [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Zlatkovic, good morning.  My name is

22     Mihajlo Bakrac.  I appear on behalf of General Lazarevic before this

23     Tribunal.  As I've already told Their Honours, I will have but a few

24     questions for you.  In your statement in paragraphs starting with 30 and

25     ending with 34 you described the heavy bombardment of Djakovica on the

Page 25292

 1     part of the NATO alliance.  You mentioned the damage caused on the

 2     various housing facilities.  Did you know that at the very outset of the

 3     bombardment the Army of Yugoslavia barracks in Djakovica was severely

 4     damaged?

 5        A.   I did know that because that VJ barracks is next to the Catholic

 6     monastery.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Zlatkovic, that is precisely what I wanted to ask

 8     you next.  Concerning the blast which damaged the barracks, did it also

 9     damage the nearest building, this being the Catholic monastery?

10        A.   Yes, there were great explosions and an ammunition and weapons

11     depot exploded as well, and that was probably what caused the damage.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Zlatkovic.  Yesterday you were asked by my learned

13     friend Mr. Ivetic at page 25284 of the transcript whether you knew of the

14     mixed check-point outside of Meja, and did you have occasion to pass

15     along that road.  I wanted to ask you this:  Would you agree with me if I

16     said that it was a joint check-point at the outskirts of Djakovica

17     towards Brekovac, Zub, and the border crossing of Cafa Prusit?

18        A.   Yes, that check-point was a joint one.

19        Q.   When Mr. Ivetic asked you yesterday the questions I put to you

20     from the page 25284, this is the check-point you had in mind?

21        A.   That check-point at the check-point in Meja, these were the joint

22     check-points.  Let us clear something up first.  The check-point at Meja

23     was a joint check-point when the war began, that's when it was

24     established.  The check-point in Brekovac when the police squad was

25     attacked in Ponosevac, that squad was not very active and they were

Page 25293

 1     pulled out towards Brekovc and that's how it came about that it became a

 2     joint check-point at the beginning of the war.

 3        Q.   But it is at the outskirts of Djakovica, it's not in Meja itself?

 4        A.   No, there were two roads and two check-points, the one in Brekovc

 5     and the one in Meja.  Both check-points -- well, the one in Brekovc was

 6     set up after the police squad had been attacked in Ponosevac.  Since that

 7     police squad was no longer in operation, since they were under constant

 8     attacks from Popovac, Smonica, Nivokaz and other places as well as Batusa

 9     and Kosare and Morina, that's where the terrorists were coming from, and

10     they were attacking Planik and Ponosevac.  The Djakovica SUP had to

11     create a defensive system to try and reach Brekovc and establish a

12     check-point there so as to be able to control any movement of terrorists

13     and to prevent them to come in from that area towards the town of

14     Djakovica.  Later on the Meja check-point was set up, when the war broke

15     out.  The 127th Brigade, I believe, kept attacking the police and army

16     there.  They had their trenches.  No one could go to Kosare to get

17     supplies for the army to deliver them since they were in Kosare and

18     Morina.

19        Q.   Just a moment.  But you will agree with me that as you were asked

20     by Mr. Ivetic that it is at the exit of Djakovica when going to Meja?

21        A.   Well, yes, the two check-points, the check-point was not in Meja

22     itself.

23        Q.   Yes.  When you leave Djakovica and move to Meja?

24        A.   On the road to Meja.

25        Q.   Mr. Zlatkovic, you were in the Djakovica SUP?

Page 25294

 1        A.   Yes, I was sent there by the Serbian MUP.

 2        Q.   What about the OUP of Decani, was it part of the Djakovica SUP?

 3        A.   Yes, it was; however, at a certain point in July it was besieged,

 4     it was attacked by terrorists when they tried to take over that area.  A

 5     policeman of ours was wounded and somehow they prevented them from

 6     reaching the OUP.

 7        Q.   Let us have a look at Exhibit 5D1459 next.  Perhaps you can

 8     recognise -- it's a phone book.  It should be on the screen before you,

 9     items 21 and 22.  It says Decani switchboard and Decani, the officers --

10     officer on duty.  Are these the extensions for the two offices in Decani?

11        A.   What were the numbers you say?

12        Q.   21, 22.

13        A.   Decani switchboard, 61817, is that it?

14        Q.   Yes.  Can you recall whether these were the extensions for the

15     two particular offices?

16        A.   Well, this is a switchboard, well then we have the Radonjic lake,

17     it's the same OUP.

18        Q.   I'm asking you this:  Do you remember that there was a list of

19     phone numbers and that Decani had this particular extension?

20        A.   I don't know, but if it says so it probably was that way.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Please have a look at items 1 and 2.  It says

22     operational staff 1, operational staff 2.  What does this refer to?

23        A.   I really don't know.  I wasn't interested in these matters.  I

24     truly don't know.  I would tell you otherwise -- or perhaps Vule termed

25     himself an operational staff or something.  I don't know.

Page 25295

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Zlatkovic, I have no further questions.

 2        A.   Thank you as well.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

 4             Mr. Zlatkovic, you'll now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor,

 5     Ms. Kravetz.

 6             Ms. Kravetz.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Cross-examination by Ms. Kravetz:

 9        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Zlatkovic.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   Yesterday during your evidence you told us that you were involved

12     in late April in an investigation that took place in Reka Kec or Caragoj

13     valley in Djakovica; correct?

14        A.   Yes, it is.

15        Q.   And you told us this investigation took place over a period of

16     approximately a week and it involved several teams including your own?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   This investigation was carried out under instructions of the SUP

19     chief of Djakovica; is that correct?

20        A.   Not the chief -- or maybe I misspoke yesterday.  I was ordered

21     that by the chief of the OKP, the crime police department.  Following the

22     chief of the OKP, you have deputy chief and chief of sector.  I may have

23     misspoken yesterday when I said "chief," but it's quite a common term.

24     Perhaps I should have been more precise.  Chief of the crime police,

25     Mr. Stanojevic, Milan Stanojevic.

Page 25296

 1        Q.   And you said that you were informed that there were bodies in the

 2     valley, that that's why this investigation was being carried out?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you know how this information was received by the SUP -- by

 5     the SUP Djakovica, that there were bodies in the valley of Reka Kec?

 6        A.   I don't know how they came about that information.  I was the one

 7     who was told to go there, and the chief of the crime police organized us

 8     in several teams and we set out.  As I explained yesterday, there were

 9     problems.  We tried for a couple of days to go there but we couldn't

10     because of the air-strikes in Zub, Ponosevac, and Planik, as well as the

11     part along the border.  And then we worked on it in the next -- in the

12     course of the next few days.  We wouldn't work there for a whole day but

13     for a few hours at a time when there were no sorties and we would go out

14     and come back and so forth.

15        Q.   Approximately how many people from your crime police department

16     were involved in this investigation over this period of a week that you

17     say it lasted?

18        A.   Each team had one crime scene technician, one or two, they would

19     take photographs, and one or two inspectors depending on the lie of land.

20     So one would usually have four to five people within any given team.

21        Q.   So in total would be approximately 12, 15 people that were

22     involved in this investigation?

23        A.   Yes, that's right.

24        Q.   Now, you told us that during the course of this investigation you

25     discovered approximately 20 to 25 bodies; correct?

Page 25297

 1        A.   Yes, that's how it was, but on several locations.  We were in

 2     Ramoc and Popovac and in Korenica, my team I mean.

 3        Q.   So these were discovered in several villages is what you're

 4     saying, these bodies?

 5        A.   Yes, exactly, in several villages.  For example, in Ramoc there

 6     were two or three, then in Ponosevac, Popovac, Korenica, et cetera.

 7        Q.   And your fellow colleagues were also deployed in these same

 8     villages, they also conducted investigations in these same villages or

 9     were there other locations where they were investigating?

10        A.   There was some in Nivokaz, in Smonica, in Racaj, in Pacaj and the

11     work-mates went to those villages as well all the way up to Junik.

12        Q.   Were you also in Meja during this time when you were conducting

13     this investigation?

14        A.   As I said yesterday, I passed by the check-point in Meja because

15     one had to move along that road.  I passed by Meja, by the check-point.

16     I didn't go into Meja itself.

17        Q.   And all these localities that you mentioned are in this same

18     area, I mean these are neighbouring villages around the Meja village?

19        A.   Yes.  It is some 15 kilometres from Djakovica towards the border

20     and next to it, that's where the villages are, all of them, it's 15 or so

21     kilometres from Djakovica.

22        Q.   So these are villages that are basically one next to each other

23     on the road from Djakovica?

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour -- well, okay --

25             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

Page 25298

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I was going to say it's a vague question as to what

 3     next to one means.  If counsel wants a map there's several in the system.

 4     It's fairly evident where these villages are from looking at the map, but

 5     next to when you're talking about an area of multiple kilometres can be

 6     somewhat vague and misleading.  I don't know if it's helpful to the

 7     Trial Chamber.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  I don't think that's an objection to the question,

 9     Ms. Kravetz; it's a suggestion that the answer may have its limitations.

10     It's a matter for you how you proceed.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  I don't intend to get into a map.  I was just

12     asking the witness if these were neighbouring villages, that's all, and I

13     think the witness responded --

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, the --

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Oh --

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  The response isn't recorded.  I think you're

17     right, but the response isn't recorded in the transcript.

18             MR. IVETIC:  He did respond and I think he said yes.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  Okay.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  So there you have it.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:

22        Q.   Sir, you told us that these bodies that you found, these 20 to 25

23     bodies were male bodies and that they bore gun-shot wounds; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 25299

 1        Q.   And I take it you prepared a report on the findings of your

 2     investigation during the course of these days?

 3        A.   At the on-site investigation itself everything was recorded and

 4     filed properly; however, since we worked every day this continued after I

 5     left.  It's not that the on-site investigation was over.  Some of my

 6     colleagues, as appointed by the chief of the OKP, was supposed to file a

 7     criminal report and that was supposed to be sent to the district public

 8     prosecutor in Pec in order to investigate whether this was a crime or

 9     something else.

10        Q.   Do you know how many bodies, if any, were discovered by the other

11     teams that were taking part in this investigation together with yours?

12        A.   They must have found some bodies too.  People were saying they

13     had found some bodies, 10, 15, I don't know exactly how many, up until

14     then.  Later on perhaps more were found after I had left.  I really don't

15     know about that.

16        Q.   Did you not discuss this with your colleagues at the SUP or with

17     your chief during the course of this investigation, whether bodies were

18     being found by other teams?

19        A.   That's why I'm telling you.  They found 10 to 15 bodies, that's

20     what they said to me; later on perhaps they found some more after I left,

21     maybe they found some more but I had already left the SUP of Djakovica by

22     the 15th of May and they probably continued working.  Let me tell you one

23     thing.  This is not a plain, this is mountainous area, there are valleys

24     and hills and trenches from which the terrorists were operating and the

25     army and the police were still being fired at by the citizens themselves,

Page 25300

 1     it was mined and so on and so forth.  So it's hard for people to find

 2     their way there, very hard, and certainly they went on working and they

 3     found some more and most probably -- well ...

 4        Q.   What happened to these 20 or 25 bodies that your team discovered?

 5        A.   Our team that found these 20 to 25 bodies, the crime technician

 6     took finger-prints - and I mentioned that yesterday - and an examination

 7     of the corpses was carried out.  There was a doctor, a surgeon, on our

 8     team who established death and he looked at the tattoos, all of that was

 9     inscribed; and the persons who could not be identified were buried at the

10     Muslim cemetery in Djakovica.  People who were identified, that was a

11     different matter, their family members were called in so that they could

12     have them buried.  Are we understanding each other?

13        Q.   And were you there when these bodies were handed over to these

14     family members?  Is this something you took part in, the hand-over of

15     bodies to the family members?

16        A.   No.  My colleagues, crime technicians, took part, that is a rule

17     in our area.  They record this by video recorder and cameras, and then

18     there is a number that is attached saying whether it's a male or a female

19     corpse and that is recorded so that people could later on find their

20     nearest and dearest and have them buried in a proper way.  As for the

21     people we found, we put them in plastic bags, special bags for corpses,

22     and the burials carried out were as humane as possible.  They were

23     carried out by the public company that was involved in that kind of work

24     for years.  Graves were dug and these bodies were buried.  Also, the

25     bodies that were found by the lake and that had not been identified were

Page 25301

 1     buried in the same place, at the Muslim cemetery.

 2        Q.   Despite this detailed analysis that you say you carried out or

 3     investigation on these bodies, you were unable yesterday to tell us the

 4     circumstances of how these persons had met their death.  You have no

 5     information as to how these persons met their death?

 6        A.   I said yesterday, and let me tell you, there was a war going on.

 7     There must have been fighting otherwise the trenches and the

 8     communicating trenches would not have been dug around the houses and

 9     villages.  These communicating trenches led to the main roads where we

10     had--

11        Q.   Sir, I'm asking you a simple question.  Were you able to

12     establish how these persons met their deaths, how they were killed?

13        A.   I think they were killed in fighting.  In my view, they were

14     terrorists, that's for sure -- well, perhaps some civilians got killed

15     too.  I cannot say anything for sure, but in combat it is combatants and

16     civilians that get killed.

17        Q.   So these were persons that had been killed by the VJ and MUP

18     forces that were deployed in the area; correct?

19        A.   I am saying that the Army of Yugoslavia and the MUP forces were

20     defending the territory of the then-Yugoslavia.  It is certain that they

21     had been attacked, provoked --

22        Q.   Sir --

23        A.   -- and there was this contact as it was.  Yes, please go ahead.

24        Q.   So I take it based on your answer that the answer to my question

25     is:  Yes, these persons were killed by members of the VJ and MUP that

Page 25302

 1     were deployed in that area?

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I would object to the question, it's

 4     been asked and answered.  He's given the extent of his knowledge and

 5     he's -- well, I don't want to be provoke -- I don't want to be said to be

 6     leading the witness, but --

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah, the position is not clear.  I asked

 8     questions about this yesterday, and all that Ms. Kravetz is trying to do

 9     is establish whether the witness has any information about who was

10     responsible for these deaths, whether they were in self-defence, combat,

11     or whatever, that's all.

12             MR. IVETIC:  And he's answered that very clearly prior in the

13     transcript.

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  What do you say the clear answer is?

15             MR. IVETIC:  The investigation needed to be undertaken and

16     completed to find out what the circumstances were, whether it was a

17     criminal act or something else.

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, that doesn't tell us whether he had

19     information about who did it.  The objection to this is repelled,

20     Ms. Kravetz.  If you want to reformulate a question it might assist us I

21     think to know exactly the extent of the witness's knowledge as compared

22     with speculation.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, I will, Your Honours.

24        Q.   Sir, what I'm asking is if you have any information.  I'm not

25     asking you to speculate on what you think the circumstances might have

Page 25303

 1     been.  I'm asking you whether you have any specific information on how

 2     these persons whose body you discovered met their death, how they were

 3     killed.  Do you have any information that you can provide us with today?

 4        A.   I do not have such information for the time being.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Zlatkovic, was your investigation designed to

 6     establish who had killed them or was that not part of the job that you

 7     were actually undertaking?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our job was go out to the scene to

 9     carry out an on-site investigation, and upon completing the on-site

10     investigation to do operative work on the matter, to see what's what.

11     After I left most probably my colleagues worked on this or they are still

12     working on it, and we will see what happened.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  It's a well-known practice in -- certainly

14     throughout Europe and in other parts of the world for an investigation

15     into a death to try to establish who might have caused the death, whether

16     that person's guilty of a crime or not.  It's part of the European

17     Convention and human rights that anyone killed and the relatives have a

18     right to a full investigation of the circumstances including the person

19     responsible.  Now, does your investigation aim at establishing who

20     actually did the killing or was that not -- were you not interested in

21     that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I mourn every victim

23     on both sides, and our objective was certainly to establish what happened

24     and we certainly would have established what had happened.  But what

25     happened was that the population moved out of the area and we could no

Page 25304

 1     longer do any work.  Let me say that to you.  I left earlier and they

 2     left 15 days later and --

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Zlatkovic, there may be reasons why you were

 4     unsuccessful in establishing what you would like to have established.

 5     What I want to know is what it was you were trying to establish, what is

 6     the purpose of this investigation within your system.  Now, was it the

 7     purpose of this investigation or one of the purposes to discover who was

 8     responsible for the actual shots that killed the victims?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, precisely.  That was our

10     objective, to see who fired first, who defended himself, but that could

11     not be established at that point.  There was a war going on and we

12     thought that we'd do it later --

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  We're the last people you need to tell there was a

14     war going on.  Now, we've seen countless documents in this case where

15     there is a report, an official report, that says there was a combat and

16     there were X number of casualties.  So you can relate that report to the

17     bodies that either were found but in most instances were taken away by

18     those who were involved in the combat.  In this instance the bodies are

19     there.  Were you able to tie these bodies to a report of any organization

20     forming part of the Yugoslav authorities or the Serb authorities that

21     actually accepted responsibility for killing these bodies?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand what it was

23     that you told me towards the end.  Could you please repeat that to me.

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  I was explaining that we've seen a number of

25     reports in which it's recorded that Yugoslav authorities were involved in

Page 25305

 1     combat and there were casualties and a number of casualties on the other

 2     side.  Were you able to find any such report relating to this case which

 3     indicated which body within either the Yugoslav authorities or the Serb

 4     authorities engaged in combat and fired the shots which killed these men?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the on-site investigation

 6     itself, we could not establish that and material was being prepared that

 7     would later be elaborated upon, this operative work would be carried out,

 8     interviews and so on.  And certainly the proof would have been there, but

 9     this was probably in the SUP of Djakovica.  And the SUP of Djakovica

10     people say, I wasn't there, but they say that it was bombed.  That's what

11     I heard later, after the war that it was bombed and destroyed.  Now,

12     whether that remained there or somewhere else, I really don't know.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, let's look at the possibilities, were there

14     any paramilitaries operating and your area?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I swear by my life,

16     and I don't know what else here, that with the exception of the KLA there

17     was no other paramilitary structure in the area of Djakovica.  There was

18     the regular army, there was the reserve army, there was the police, and

19     the reserve police.  The paramilitary that is referred to was only the

20     KLA, I mean in a state that --

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  And were there any PJP units in your area?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The PJP did exist.

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  No.  Were they operational in your area, around

24     you -- around Djakovica?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know.  We are

Page 25306

 1     separate from them, I mean certainly they were working, that's a unit

 2     that's trained for anti-terrorist action, most probably they were

 3     operational, but we are a separate department from them.  They belong to

 4     one police and we belong to the crime police, and I am not very

 5     well-versed in all of this.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Would a group of policemen who are not part of the

 7     PJP ever engage a large group of terrorists in combat?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If someone orders them, if a

 9     commander of theirs, a leader of theirs, the commander of the squad, the

10     commander of the station, they certainly have to carry out that task

11     then.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  And have you experience of that happening in your

13     office?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went after such things happened

15     only if some of our people were wounded or killed or if some people from

16     the other side were killed or wounded.  I'm not aware of this.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes, but here we've got at least 40 bodies,

18     according to you.  Now, were ordinary police officers other than PJP in

19     our experience ever engaged in a combat where there might be 40

20     terrorists killed in the combat?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do beg your pardon.  Could you

22     please repeat your question because the interpretation seems sort of ...

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  I'm trying to establish whether in your experience

24     there were occasions when ordinary police officers, not those forming PJP

25     companies, were engaged in combat that might result in 40 casualties

Page 25307

 1     because they were fighting such a large force?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't aware of that.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  So the only option here on your analysis would be

 4     the army?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that the army was

 6     involved -- actually, I don't know about the army or the police.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Zlatkovic, did your scientific tests not

10     establish whose weapons had been used to shoot at those who were killed?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are in the field, the crime

12     technicians in the field actually collected all the cartridges -- not all

13     but the ones they found.  And it was only through ballistic expertise

14     that we were able to establish what weapons had been used.  The

15     terrorists mainly used the Chinese weapons, but in the war towards the

16     end of the war they had got hold of some other armaments, also of our

17     manufacturer, and this is the only way we could establish --

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  But in this case did you establish which weapons

19     had been used?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were cartridges, rifle

21     cartridges, and I didn't see anything else.  I saw that rifles had been

22     used.

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  Did you relate these to the standard-issue

24     equipment of the Yugoslav and Serb forces?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not an expert on this --

Page 25308

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  But you're one of the senior officers in the

 2     inquiry.  You're the man that needs to know.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm the lowest-ranking

 4     of the officers, I was the lowest-ranking.  I never got promoted and I

 5     only remained a captain.  I was nobody's pit.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  So in the team that found the 25 bodies, where

 7     were you?  Were there others in that team who were superior to you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The chief of the OKP was there as

 9     well, Milan Stanojevic, that is.

10             JUDGE BONOMY:  As part of your four- or five-man team he was

11     there, was he?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  Ms. Kravetz -- just a moment.

14             Judge Chowhan has a question.

15             JUDGE CHOWHAN:  Well, I'm rather surprised that you were a part

16     of the investigating team, you discovered cartridges, and you were not

17     able to even know what calibre these -- of what calibre these were.  This

18     is very strange.  And may I refer you to -- this is a second thing I'm

19     telling you.  May I refer you to one of your answers in the beginning

20     when you said:  Yes, it was a war situation and these people, these

21     people were killed and were in their trenches or outside the trenches,

22     came in contact with the forces.  Now, what are those forces?  Now, you

23     have to tell us those forces, first of all, because you were near it when

24     there was interruption and then there was a second question; and

25     secondly, what was the calibre of the cartridges and what -- did you see

Page 25309

 1     those reports later on but you should have known what are the calibre of

 2     the cartridges and I would like to question you further.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When you said that I was close to

 4     the events, in fact, I was far away from these events.  I was some 15 to

 5     20 kilometres away from the scene of the events.  I was in town.  As far

 6     as the cartridges are concerned, these were cartridges -- automatic rifle

 7     cartridges.  Now, as for the calibre, frankly speaking, I cannot remember

 8     at this point.  Ten years have passed, and I am not an expert on weapons.

 9     Of all weaponry, I only used a pistol.  And when we were leaving -- when

10     we were going out in the terrain we were often attacked by terrorists,

11     then I had to carry an automatic rifle and how much I used it, then --

12     well, all in good time.

13             JUDGE CHOWHAN:  Well, we're not at all concerned with what type

14     of weapons you were carrying.  We are concerned about your scientific

15     achievements while you were at the site.  We are also not bothered what

16     distance you were when these episodes took place, but you were there

17     investigating and you picked up the cartridges and you saw them.  Now, to

18     whom these belonged?  And once you tell us that these were cartridges,

19     well, it rules out the possibility of bombing about which you were

20     mentioning.  So it means they were shot at.  Now, what is the calibre,

21     whose weapons these were, because there are standardised weapons given to

22     different military or paramilitary or police and so on, and these could

23     be easily compared.  Why were not these compared?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a while ago that all the

25     material, both written and the objects, the material found in situ were

Page 25310

 1     left in the Djakovica SUP for the file to be completed upon the entire

 2     investigation having been completed.  This would be sent to an institute,

 3     the institute for ballistics, that we had in both Pristina and Belgrade.

 4     What could not be done in Pristina was sent to the Belgrade institute,

 5     and they were the ones who should have completed the examination on that

 6     score, so that I don't know anything else about it.

 7             JUDGE CHOWHAN:  Now, what did you write in the inquest report

 8     which you formulated?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was a classical inquest

10     report, if I should quote, on the day when so and so an on-site

11     investigation was carried out in connection with the terrorist attack, it

12     was done under such and such conditions with bombing going on or without

13     bombing.  Body number one was found at such and such spot, the corpses

14     were marked with numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so on, body found in trench,

15     bound found in bush, body found by a rock, found by a wall, in a

16     stable --

17             JUDGE CHOWHAN:  I'm sorry to interrupt.  I've seen inquest

18     reports.  Please tell me what did you write as an opinion, what can be

19     the cause of the killing, who may have killed, what weapons were used?

20     I'm talking about that specific thing, not about general things, what --

21     the form of the inquest report, we know it, I've seen hundreds of these.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wrote that NN perpetrators,

23     unknown persons, perpetrated a shooting and we would be sending a

24     supplement to the criminal report which was filed if we established

25     subsequently who the NN persons were which we would submit to the

Page 25311

 1     district public prosecutor's office in Pec and they would take further

 2     action upon that supplement.

 3             JUDGE CHOWHAN:  Did you examine the wounds, did you examine the

 4     injuries on the bodies, and did you report on their dimensions and then

 5     connect them with the calibre?  Did you do it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was a doctor there.

 7             JUDGE CHOWHAN:  And did you read what was the -- whether there

 8     was charring or burning on the wounds or whether -- what was the size of

 9     the wound, what was the inlet, what is the outlet?  What did you see

10     there to find out the strength of the bullet, the calibre of the bullet?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We investigated this scene for some

12     ten days because much time had passed after the deaths so that there

13     might have been some shortcomings in our work because the bodies had

14     already begun to decay so that we were not able to establish everything

15     in detail.

16             JUDGE CHOWHAN:  I'm worried about what you observed exactly on

17     the bodies to find out the distance from which it was shot, what was the

18     strength of the bullet, that you're not telling us.  I mean, you are a

19     part of the investigating team and you were going here and there and

20     that's what surprises me.  Please be specific on what we are asking.

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  There was a transcript issue, Your Honour.  I didn't

23     want to interrupt the question of Judge Chowhan, but at the beginning of

24     the response to the prior question in front of:  "We investigated the

25     scene for some ten days ..." there was -- in Serbian basically the gist

Page 25312

 1     of what was said I think:  We certainly did, but that could be cleared up

 2     with the review of the audiotape.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 4             Can you deal with the question, please, Mr. Zlatkovic, which was:

 5     What investigation was there into the distance from which these people

 6     were shot, the strength of the bullets?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not an expert on this matter.

 8     In the forensic institute there are experts who are able to establish the

 9     nature of the wound and ...

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  Ms. Kravetz, are there any exhibits bearing on

12     these issues that have been raised in the last 15 minutes?

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  No, I was actually going to ask the witness if the

14     report of this investigation was available.  We don't have it.

15             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah.

16             Mr. Ivetic, are there any exhibits that bear on any of these

17     issues?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Our investigations have not found these documents,

19     Your Honour.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

21             So could you try and clarify -- we know that the SUP building did

22     suffer damage, but we don't know at the moment the extent to which that

23     may have had an impact on the investigation.

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  I can ask the witness.

25        Q.   Sir, you've spoken at length about this investigation.  Do you

Page 25313

 1     know if the report that was compiled at the end of this investigation

 2     is -- still exists and if it's available somewhere?

 3        A.   I don't know whether one has been compiled -- was compiled

 4     because the SUP was bombed after I had left.  I am -- expect that my

 5     colleagues, if they had the material, had submitted it to the proper

 6     place.  If it had been bombed and destroyed, then that would not have

 7     been the case.  I left on the 15th and later I heard that it had been

 8     bombed -- actually, I read it in the papers, that is how I got that

 9     information.

10        Q.   And if it had been completed during the month of May after you

11     left, this would have been submitted, this report, to the public

12     prosecutor in Pec; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   But you don't know if it's still -- if this report still exists

15     and if it's available in the office?

16        A.   I really don't know whether it was submitted, whether it exists.

17     This can be checked in the public prosecutor's office in Pec, which now

18     is in Leskovac.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  We don't have the document, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Just a final question regarding this investigation.  When you

22     were conducting it, did you not consider the possibility of speaking to

23     VJ soldiers and MUP personnel who had been deployed in the area when

24     these killings took place to try to establish the circumstances of these

25     deaths?  Was that not something you considered doing or that you

Page 25314

 1     undertook to do?

 2        A.   It was certainly planned, but the situation was what it was and

 3     perhaps my departure also disrupted the procedure.  But those who

 4     remained might have done some work on that.  It is -- everything is

 5     possible, but we would certainly have completed the investigation, but

 6     what happened.  I had to leave and they too later left the area of Kosovo

 7     and Metohija.

 8        Q.   I see.  Sir, the evidence before this Court is that over 300

 9     persons were killed in Reka Kec or Caragoj valley at the end of April by

10     Serb forces, both VJ and police.  Are you aware of that, that the number

11     actually was much higher than the one you mentioned, there were over 300

12     people killed?

13        A.   Well, I haven't seen that.  I am just telling here what I have

14     seen, and I have sworn before this Court that I would be telling the

15     truth and I am telling the truth.  This is the number that we found and I

16     cannot augment, increase, that number if I don't know if that is the

17     case.

18        Q.   And are you aware, sir, that the persons that were killed, in

19     particular in the Meja area during these days, their bodies were later

20     discovered at mass graves outside of Belgrade in Batajnica?  Did you hear

21     of that?

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, just a moment, there's another comment to be

23     made.

24             Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  I think we're having a question that causes for

Page 25315

 1     speculation and misstates the evidence.  I certainly -- I mean, I --

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, let's find out --

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Let's find out what he knows.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  -- what the witness's answer is because it may not

 5     be of any importance.

 6             Ms. Kravetz, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the

 8     question.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:

10        Q.   I was asking whether you know of persons killed in Meja at the

11     end of April 1999 whose bodies were later discovered in mass graves at

12     Batajnica in Serbia proper?

13        A.   I read about it in the newspaper.  It was a scandal of sorts.  As

14     for whether they were from Meja, I don't know, it didn't say in the

15     newspaper.

16        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  Sir, you spoke about a check-point outside of

17     Meja and you said it was a joint VJ/MUP check-point.  Were members of the

18     Djakovica SUP responsible for manning that check-point together with VJ

19     soldiers?

20        A.   They were together, certainly.  They controlled at that place and

21     their role was not to allow terrorist groups to enter the town, since

22     there were many there already.

23        Q.   Did a man by the name of Milan Scepanovic work at the SUP in

24     Djakovica while you were working there?

25        A.   I don't -- it's a Montenegrin last name.  There are many

Page 25316

 1     Scepanovics.  I came across that last name when their houses had come

 2     under attack.  If I saw the man, perhaps I'd be able to recall the name

 3     as well.  I really don't know.  I don't know him personally.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  At paragraph 34 of your statement you speak of

 5     an incident that you say you witnessed at another joint check-point.  You

 6     don't give the exact location of where this check-point was.  I don't

 7     know if you have your statement there.  You don't, I see.  Do you recall

 8     speaking --

 9        A.   I don't.

10        Q.   Do you recall speaking of being at a check-point and witnessing

11     an incident where there were some civilians crossing the check-point

12     accompanied by a Catholic priest?

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you very much.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recall that very well.  I was

15     passing by and I saw a Catholic priest in a white robe with a large cross

16     on his chest.  He was in front of a column of refugee --

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  We have this in your statement.  Ms. Kravetz will

18     ask you any other questions.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes.

20        Q.   I wanted to know first where this check-point was located.  This

21     is not the same check-point outside of Meja, I presume, or it was the

22     same one you had spoken about earlier?

23        A.   No, no.  It is the check-point at Bistrazin.  It is a Catholic

24     village where Albanian Catholic population lived exclusively.  There is a

25     bridge there, and that's where the check-point had been established.

Page 25317

 1        Q.   This was again a check-point that was manned by VJ soldiers and

 2     MUP members from the SUP Djakovica?

 3        A.   Both, both were there.

 4        Q.   Now, you described an incident where -- when you saw a Catholic

 5     priest with some civilians.  When did this incident take place exactly,

 6     do you recall?

 7        A.   I think that -- was it after the bombing or during the bombing in

 8     Meja?  People started fleeing.  I arrived there and I saw a man, I

 9     greeted him --

10        Q.   Sir --

11        A.   -- and I tried to speed up their movement.  Let me finish, if I

12     may.

13        Q.   Sir, I'm just asking about when this happened, is this March,

14     April, May, June?  When did it happen?

15        A.   It was in April.

16        Q.   How many people did you see there, sir, at this check-point when

17     you witnessed this incident?

18        A.   A lot of people.  There were women, children, young people, all

19     in all over 100 people perhaps.

20        Q.   Okay.  And how long did you remain there at this check-point?  I

21     mean, were you just crossing by or did you remain there for some time?

22        A.   No, no.  I stayed there for a while, I brought them food -- I

23     brought the food for the people manning the check-point, and I came to

24     see whether there were any problems there.  What we were told at the

25     Djakovica SUP by the chief of the OKP was that people should not be held.

Page 25318

 1     There was an instructional dispatch that had arrived from Belgrade.

 2     People were not supposed to be held or made to stay, but we were simply

 3     there to identify the people and try to screen for terrorists.  That's

 4     why I was trying to rush them along.  I had trust in the Catholic priest

 5     as someone who wouldn't lead a group of terrorists, and I told them to

 6     go.

 7        Q.   And you said this was in April.  You don't recall the specific

 8     date of this incident which you said you recall very well?

 9        A.   It is possible.  I'm very bad at remembering dates, but it may

10     have been around the 20th give or take a day or two.  In any case, it was

11     in April.  I'm positive about that and there was a drizzle.  The priest

12     was something one remembers with his robe, that's why I recall it now.

13        Q.   But you did have occasion to go through this check-point on other

14     dates?  This wasn't the only time that you were at that check-point?

15        A.   I went through it when I would go to Prizren for a weekend leave.

16     I would always go there, but if it was danger there I would go via

17     Rakovina and Klina, or if there was danger on other routes then I would

18     take this one, that's how I would get home.

19        Q.   Okay.  This was a check-point that you regularly travelled

20     through during the course of your stay in Kosovo?  You were regularly

21     travelling through this check-point?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  Moving on to --

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  Can I just clarify one thing.

25             You mentioned a dispatch from Belgrade in your answers there.

Page 25319

 1     What roughly was the date of that dispatch?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the beginning of the war

 3     when we received the instructional dispatch, the Djakovica SUP, that is,

 4     and we were told about it by the chief of the OKP.  It instructed us to

 5     treat persons in the most humane way, including civilians, children, the

 6     elderly, and the rest.  We should treat them humanely, they shouldn't be

 7     mistreated, robbed, and so on and so forth.  It was strictly stated that

 8     whoever should be found committing such acts would be severely punished

 9     and criminal reports would be submitted against such persons.

10             JUDGE BONOMY:  But for the avoidance of any doubt here, the

11     comment that you made that was of interest to us was that the dispatch

12     gave you directions not to hold people.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  And that was issued at the beginning of the war?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  So did you understand that to mean if these people

17     wanted to leave you should just allow them to leave?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

20             Ms. Kravetz.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Sir, yesterday you told us that you -- and today as well, that

23     you left the SUP of Djakovica in mid-May and requested to be sent back to

24     Vranje where you're from because you had been injured in your leg.  Do

25     you recall saying that?

Page 25320

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Sir, wasn't the real reason you decided to leave or request to be

 3     transferred back to Vranje, wasn't that because you didn't get along with

 4     your boss, the chief of the crime police, and you didn't agree with the

 5     way he managed your section?  Isn't that why you requested to be moved

 6     away, it wasn't because you were injured, was it?

 7        A.   I didn't ask for a transfer.  My position was in Vranje.  I had

 8     spent 18 and a half months there.  As for what you're saying, that I

 9     didn't get along with my chief, well he wasn't issuing stupid orders, but

10     at a certain point he wanted me to be in five -- four or five different

11     places for on-site investigations.  I wasn't able to do that.  Just have

12     a look at my leg and the other one.  That was the reason.  The more

13     serious problem was the problem of the leg, I was injured.  As for me not

14     getting along with him, that's a different matter.  We didn't get along

15     because perhaps he wasn't very good at managing.  He couldn't manage

16     people, he was a difficult person, he didn't know how to do it.  He

17     cannot tell me to conduct on-site investigations in different locations

18     at the same time, four or five places, although, for example, there are

19     terrorists there waiting.  I was in favour of the crime scene

20     investigations, but one had to wait.  I didn't want to be killed in vain,

21     not only me but others as well, that was the problem.  However, the more

22     serious problem was the leg, I had been injured.  My knee was injured as

23     well, I limped and attended on-site investigations.

24        Q.   So you requested to be sent back basically because you didn't

25     agree with the way your chief was managing you, and you didn't agree with

Page 25321

 1     the tasks that you were being given so that's why you requested to be

 2     sent back to Vranje?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, he's -- he's answered the question.

 4     I -- it's asked and answered.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My greatest problem was that I had

 6     been injured.  As for me not getting along with him, we were unable to

 7     get along for a year and a half before that but I had to do my work.  I

 8     was under a lot of stress and burden.  I would have to carry out six or

 9     seven on-site investigations within a single day.  It was physically and

10     psychologically difficult for me.  We were under attacks while carrying

11     out investigations.  Ambushes would be set up, that was a problem as

12     well.  I had two children and one had to provide for them.

13             MS. KRAVETZ:

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

17             You were probably right, Mr. Ivetic, but you got the same answer,

18     so --

19             MR. IVETIC:  I appreciate that.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  -- no harm was done.

21             MR. IVETIC:  I appreciate that, Your Honour.  I do have a few

22     questions in re-direct.  I don't know if Your Honours had any questions

23     for the witness.

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  Very well -- there are a couple of matters, just

25     hold on -- in fact, only one.

Page 25322

 1                           Questioned by the Court:

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  In your statement at paragraph 46 you refer to the

 3     management of SUP Djakovica and you refer to collegiums.  What do you

 4     mean there by a collegium?

 5        A.   When I say "collegium," not only in the SUP of Djakovica but in

 6     all SUPs, I mean the following.  They have weekly and monthly collegium

 7     meetings and daily collegiums as well, where you would have the chief of

 8     the SUP, the chief of the OKP, the chief of the crime police, police

 9     station commanders, and some junior officers.  On all of the occasions it

10     was stated and stressed that concerning the people who were moving out of

11     their homes, that they should be treated in the most humane of ways.

12     That was contained in the instructional dispatch from Belgrade.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.  I understand that.  It was the concept

14     itself that I wanted to be clear about and now am.  Thank you.

15             Mr. Ivetic.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

17        Q.   Mr. Zlatkovic, you were asked about calibre of weapons.  Do you

18     know what calibre of weapons were used by the KLA, the VJ, and the police

19     in 1999?  Was there any difference in the calibre of the automatic rifles

20     used by these forces in 1999?

21        A.   No, there was no difference in terms of calibre because the army

22     and the police and the paramilitary formations of the KLA had the same

23     rifles, the only difference being that they had Chinese-made rifles,

24     whereas the army and the police used the rifles produced in Kragujevac.

25     They also had some American rifles, very precise with a long range.

Page 25323

 1     There was no difference; however, cartridges differed because they were

 2     usually supplied by Chinese ammunition.  And at a later stages it seems

 3     after they had robbed some ammo depots they had ammunition from there as

 4     well, and they had rifles which they had taken from our killed personnel.

 5     They would take those rifles and use them.  For example, in Rogovo there

 6     was a rifle which was taken from a killed policeman.

 7        Q.   Is the OKP police required to come out to the scene to perform an

 8     on-site investigation for any reports of bodies irrespective of the

 9     nature and cause of death?  When I say "on-site investigation, "I mean

10     the Serbian word "uvidjaj," which I understand is being translated

11     differently.

12        A.   If a case is reported, one had to go and carry out an on-site

13     investigation except in such cases when we were unable to reach the

14     location because of the activity of terrorists.

15        Q.   You were -- you were asked about this instructional dispatch or

16     depeche from Belgrade.  Did you have the opportunity to see the contents

17     of this dispatch with your own eyes?

18        A.   Well, I did have the opportunity in terms of us having to respect

19     the Geneva Convention, all the policemen, that is.  It was read at

20     meetings held in organizational units.

21        Q.   Did -- do you recollect if this dispatch told where to allow

22     these persons to go or any other details, what was meant by -- and were

23     there any other measures to be taken to safe-guard these persons, do you

24     recall -- recollect any of the other subject matters of that dispatch

25     that was read to you or advised you -- to you by the OKP chief?

Page 25324

 1        A.   Well, the only thing I remember is that if these people had

 2     already decided to leave that they should be allowed to do so along with

 3     an escort so that they're not attacked by the roads because there were

 4     various criminals out there who'd rob them.  The dispatch said that they

 5     should be given food, water, and everything else they need so that they

 6     could leave safely.  As a matter of fact --

 7        Q.   One moment.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   Based upon your -- hold on.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             MR. IVETIC:  One moment, let me check just one thing.

13             Your Honours, I think that's my re-direct.  I was looking for one

14     thing but I think I misread one of the paragraphs, so I don't have any

15     further questions for this witness.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Zlatkovic.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Zlatkovic, that completes your evidence.

21     Thank you for coming to give evidence.  Could you now please leave the

22     courtroom with the usher.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.  Thank you for

24     having been so fair to me.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 25325

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Hannis, you apparently wish to raise certain

 2     matters.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour, I did.  I know one matter we

 4     need to deal with is regarding the motion filed for protective measures

 5     for this witness.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  I see last night Mr. Ivetic filed a motion

 8     requesting closed session.  I just want to say orally that we're opposed

 9     to that.  We don't think there's been an adequate showing made to justify

10     those excessive protective measures.  We can go into private session if

11     we're having a discussion about a particular issue that might disclose

12     his identity.

13             The second matter that I wanted to raise, Your Honour, had to do

14     with the translation of the witness's statement.  Because I had had some

15     concerns about the timing of --

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  Before we go on to that --

17             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  -- it said in the application that the -- in fact,

19     I think for a proper discussion of this we ought to be in private session

20     at the moment.

21                           [Private session]

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Page 25326











11 Pages 25326-25336 redacted. Private session.















Page 25337

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 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  We shall hear the evidence of the next witness in

 5     closed session, and as always we shall review that evidence when we've

 6     heard it and decide whether that decision requires to be maintained in

 7     respect of the whole of the evidence or not.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  So we shall now go into closed session, please.

10                           [Closed session]

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Page 25338











11 Pages 25338-25411 redacted. Closed session.















Page 25412

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23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.31 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

25                           April, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.