Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26531

1 Wednesday, 21 May 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, everyone. We will continue with the

6 cross-examination of Mr. Djakovic.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Djakovic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: We're grateful to you for taking the time

11 yesterday to write out those parts of the notes which were found to be

12 illegible. I appreciate that it took a considerable amount of your time.

13 I'm advised that some of the passages remain illegible, which is no

14 surprise. It happens to most of us. And you've marked these on the

15 sheet. There are 11 pages, I understand, of your handwritten material.

16 It's important that that is preserved. I understand one other difficulty

17 you had, apart from deciphering some parts, was being sure about the

18 place names in some instances and we would be grateful for just a little

19 more assistance from you. When you finish your evidence today, we've

20 arranged that the court deputy will give you an atlas of Kosovo to see if

21 that assists you to identify any of the place names that you've been

22 unable to identify so far. I'm not expecting you to spend a lot of time

23 on that. Just see what you can do to help further, and we will be

24 grateful for that.

25 The cross-examination by Mr. Lukic will now continue.

Page 26532

1 Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djakovic.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. I see that you worked yesterday after the trial too, so today

9 we'll keep things very short. I would just like to show you a document,

10 the document is 6D1665. There is no translation for this document, so

11 I'm just going to ask you to look at page 2. So could you please read

12 something from there and give me your comments. This is a letter from

13 the Office of the National Council for Cooperation with the

14 International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. It was sent

15 on the 30th of January, 2008, to our colleague Boris, who's a member of

16 this team.

17 So could you please slowly read out paragraph 7 of this letter.

18 We are going to ask for it to be zoomed in. Do you see it now?

19 A. I do.

20 Paragraph 7: "The log-book of the forward command post of the

21 command of the 3rd Army in which documents are registered starting with

22 number 872 for the period from the 20th of March, 1999, up until the 10th

23 of June, 1999, in spite of all the efforts made by the legal successor of

24 the mentioned command has not been found or, rather, it has been

25 established that the requested log-book had not been handed over and

Page 26533

1 filed in the archives and also that there is no accurate information

2 about where the log-book is and whether it was ever destroyed or lost."

3 Q. Thank you. I'd just like to ask you who this legal successor

4 referred to here is, do you know?

5 A. Terminologically, legal successor in a way, well, it can be said

6 it's the army command or the General Staff to which the documents were

7 supposed to be handed over.

8 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to where this log-book could be

9 found, do you know?

10 A. No. It would be logical for it to be in the archives of the

11 General Staff. There is no other place for it to be. The only thing I

12 can say is that I know that there had to be a log-book because in respect

13 of the documents that I did -- that I created at the forward command post

14 they were logged in the log-book, including my control inspections of

15 units on orders issued by the commander and other tasks that we carried

16 out. You can even find out what number it was supposed to be.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djakovic. These were all the questions that we

18 had for you. Thank you.

19 A. You're welcome.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I wanted to request permission to be

23 able to go into two areas --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll come back to you in a moment.

25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

Page 26534

1 JUDGE BONOMY: There is one thing that we would like to ask just

2 finally from our point of view.

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE BONOMY: You've referred a number of times, Mr. Djakovic,

5 to the MUP staff, and that was a MUP staff for Kosovo. What was your

6 understanding of its role?

7 A. Well, my understanding is -- well, I haven't really given this

8 much thought because I had direct contacts with certain persons. So I

9 didn't really give much thought to the role of the MUP, but I think that

10 the role of the MUP did have a certain function. My assessment is that

11 the minister of the interior sent part of the officers from the MUP down

12 there to reinforce the team that would practically be in charge of the

13 work of certain secretariats of the interior in an indirect way, if I can

14 put it that way, exercised its influence; and directly influence the

15 overall situation in Kosovo in relation to the tasks and obligations of

16 the police. I'm saying that because the minister of the interior, at

17 least according to what some people said, had direct links with the

18 secretariats and the staff of the MUP had the same kind of links with the

19 secretariats. Down there there were, if I can put it that way, two men

20 from the Ministry of the Interior who probably had the task to reinforce

21 that team. I'm referring to General Djordjevic and General Obrad,

22 Obrad Stevanovic I mean. Now, what their specific tasks were I can

23 only - well - infer what that might be. And I've already said in a way

24 that General Obrad Stevanovic was primarily involved with the PJPs, and

25 as for the engagement of these units I mostly dealt with him with regard

Page 26535

1 to that matter not with General Lukic.

2 As for General Djordjevic, I did not have much in common with him

3 except during the talks that were held and briefings; however, I as head

4 of operations and training did not have any other contacts with

5 General Djordjevic. I repeat again, most of my contacts were with

6 General Obrad Stevanovic and with General Lukic's assistants or at least

7 they introduced themselves to me as being General Lukic's assistants.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: What period of time are you referring to?

9 A. I am saying all of this about the period of 1998, that is to say

10 up until the end of January, until I was there as head of operations and

11 training. Beforehand I said that for 1999 I cannot give much reliable

12 information because I had contacts with them very seldom because I was

13 involved with completely different things.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: In your evidence initially you gave the impression

15 that you thought that General Lukic had a very important role there, and

16 yet you don't mention him in that context in this answer.

17 A. Certainly, I do mention him. He was on the MUP staff and he was

18 responsible for the work of the MUP staff. I did not say that because I

19 believe that probably there is some documentation in relation to that. I

20 never had any documents from the MUP except for the information that I

21 received from the Ministry of the Interior and the state security. That

22 is to say that I never dealt with any other documents. That's what I

23 said yesterday to General Lukic's lawyer, when answering his questions.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: In liaising with the MUP in relation to any

25 actions, did you personally have direct contact with the heads of any of

Page 26536

1 the seven SUPs?

2 A. The heads, no. As a matter of fact, I could only remember the

3 name of Boro Vlahovic when I went to the commission in April because I

4 and General Stojanovic from the MUP talked to him together. I know the

5 others more in respect of their names. Perhaps I did see some of them

6 individually, but I very seldom had direct contact with them. Mostly it

7 was brigade commanders who had contact with chiefs of the secretariats of

8 the interior.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, does that raise any issues for you?

11 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 We did say we would give you the opportunity if anything arose in

14 cross-examination by Defence counsel, Mr. Hannis.

15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. There was one thing from

16 Mr. Lukic and one thing from Mr. Fila.


18 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:

19 Q. Yesterday Mr. Lukic asked you whether you participated in

20 drafting the plan for combatting terrorism and you said yes. Can you

21 tell me two things. One, what was the name of the plan? What did you

22 call it? Was it just the plan for combatting terrorism or did it have

23 any particular name?

24 A. That plan did not have any secret name, I know that for sure.

25 It had no secret name, as plans do, like Grom or others that existed

Page 26537

1 earlier on.

2 So this plan did not have a name. Its name was simply the plan for

3 combating terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija. That was its name, so to

4 speak, in communication among us and what we were tasked to do within

5 the command.

6 As for its content, yesterday I pointed out, first of all, it was

7 defence of the border; and secondly, the deblockade of roads in two

8 stages. One stage is the deblockade of the roads behind the border belt,

9 and the second or third is the deblockade of road throughout the

10 territory of Kosovo and Metohija, primarily the three main roads,

11 Kosovska Mitrovica-Rudnik-Pec; the second one

12 Pristina-Iglarevo-Klina-Pec, and this road going through Kramovik to

13 Djakovica. And the third road is Stimlje-Dulje-Suva Reka-Prizren. The

14 fourth road was open, that is through Urosevac, Strpce, and Prizren. It

15 was not blocked and no actions were planned there against the terrorist

16 forces.

17 Q. And you said that you participated in writing the plan. Were you

18 the only author or if there were others involved, who else was involved

19 in writing the plan?

20 A. No, no. I've already said that I was the protagonist of the

21 drafting, but the entire command of the corps took part, all of them who

22 were at the command post then. That is to say that General Lazarevic on

23 the 21 of April on orders issued by the army commander went to the

24 forward command post with a group of officers in Djakovica, and he stayed

25 there practically until the end of October. I think that's when this

Page 26538

1 activity ended. As for the rest of the command, General Pavkovic, I as

2 the head of the operations and teaching department and also

3 General Lazarevic's deputy, most of the operative organs, the chiefs of

4 arms and services subordinated to General Lazarevic, then the assistant

5 for logistics, and the assistants to the assistant for logistics, then

6 the chief of security and his assistants, then the assistant for moral

7 guidance and the other organs, they were all in Pristina, at the command

8 post there, and they took part in the elaboration of this plan

9 proportionate to the need in terms of the information that they were

10 supposed to provide. If you're interested in hearing who provided what

11 elements, I can elaborate on that.

12 Q. No, that's sufficient for now. Let me then go to the other

13 topic. Yesterday Mr. Fila asked you a couple of questions about the four

14 civilians that attended the Joint Command meetings, and at page 26.846 he

15 said: "Would you agree with me then that any suggestion or anything that

16 the four said did not have any influence on what was done?"

17 You said: "No, their influence was not really that significant."

18 I would like to show you two documents related to that issue, the

19 first one is P1435. I can hand you a hard copy with the help of the

20 usher. It's dated the 22nd of September, 1998. It's from

21 General Pavkovic, a Pristina Corps commander, to the 3rd Army command,

22 personally to the commander General Samardzic. Have you seen this

23 document before?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In paragraph 1 we see it says: "At the meeting in Belgrade on

Page 26539

1 31 August 1998 presided over by the president of the SFRY, a plan for

2 implementing stage five of the fight against terrorism in KiM was agreed

3 upon."

4 And you'll see that there was a discussion that part of that

5 agreement was forming some new battle groups to be used in KiM. If you

6 will go down to paragraph 4, in English we have to go to the second page.

7 For you, General, it's at the bottom of page 1, paragraph 4 says:

8 "During the briefing on the course of implementing stage five of the plan

9 which was given at the meeting of the ZK for Kosovo and Metohija," and I

10 take it that means the Joint Command? Isn't that what the ZK means

11 there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. "At the meeting of the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija on

14 10 September 1998, the other command organs pointed out that the VJ had

15 not carried out two of its duties under the plan, namely, one, it had not

16 formed rapid intervention helicopter units as the president of the FRY

17 had ordered at the meeting on 31 August 1998; and two, two battle groups

18 had not been moved down to KiM."

19 My first question is: Who were the other command organs at the

20 Joint Command meeting that are being referred to there?

21 A. I can say that during those meetings and briefings, from what I

22 noticed, about 20 to 25 people passed through those meetings and

23 briefings. The fact that nobody stated at the first meeting that any

24 kind of command was formed is true. This is definite, I'm convinced of

25 that, otherwise I would have written it down, and it seems the most

Page 26540

1 important thing to be written down had this been said.

2 Secondly, seven or practically eight people attended the first

3 meeting. Later some 12 to 15 persons appeared at these meetings, they

4 were carrying out different posts and functions, including the commander

5 of the army, the chief or the assistant commander of the 3rd Army,

6 General Samardzic, for counter-intelligence affairs. And of course it

7 would be in their jurisdiction in case anything was illegal --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Djakovic, let me stop you there. The VJ is

9 obviously one command organ and the MUP is another, and what Mr. Hannis

10 is asking is: What other command organs were involved?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are no other organs here. I

12 don't know of any other organs. As to the role they were given, the

13 gentleman from the republican and the federal organs, this is something

14 that I can only speculate on or guess about and I said that yesterday.

15 These would be the four persons referred to here plus

16 Mr. Andreja Milosavljevic also appeared, he was there, then I think

17 Mr. Lakovic or something like that from the state security of Pristina

18 appeared, I think that was his surname. Then there were others, I think

19 Mijatovic was there from the MUP. These were the people. There are no

20 other persons. There is no other organs or persons other than the ones

21 who were there. I don't know of any other organs.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]


24 Q. General, I'm looking at the minutes for the meeting on the 10th

25 of September, and those present are General Pavkovic, General Lukic,

Page 26541

1 Mr. Radovic, Mr. Minic, General Stevanovic, Mr. Andjelkovic, and

2 Mr. Sainovic. So if General Pavkovic is talking about the other command

3 organs pointing out something at that meeting, it had to be somebody

4 other than the VJ and the MUP, and that leaves Mr. Minic, Mr. Sainovic,

5 and Mr. Andjelkovic, because Mr. -- or Mr. Radovic, I suppose --

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I don't have any objections to what

7 Mr. Hannis is doing. I would just like the Chamber to allow the witness

8 to look at the records or the minutes. I apologise. Perhaps then it

9 would be good to continue with the questioning. That is all that I

10 wanted to say. Thank you.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Would that help, Mr. Hannis?

12 MR. HANNIS: I have no problem with that.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.


15 Q. Do you find the entry for that date, General?

16 A. Yes, I have.


18 Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I do have an objection in the sense of the

20 question of Mr. Hannis was it had to be somebody other than the MUP or

21 the VJ, and I don't think the MUP is excluded as being the command that

22 raised the issue if you look at the language in the thing.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but it's plural.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: MUP could very easily have raised that.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I entirely accept that, Mr. Ackerman, but the

Page 26542

1 language uses the plural so there must be another organ. And whether it

2 means an organ of the Joint Command or whether it means an organ that has

3 command responsibilities is yet another issue to be resolved. But first

4 of all we need to identify what are the organs involved.

5 Please continue, Mr. Hannis.


7 Q. That's my question, General, the way I read that. When

8 General Pavkovic from the VJ says at that September 10th meeting: "Other

9 command organs" pointed out that the VJ hadn't done something, I assume

10 MUP is one of the other command organ, but it's in the plural. Who else

11 besides the MUP is he referring to there, now that you've had a chance to

12 look at who else was attending on that day?

13 A. Yes. The remarks probably refer to, at least according to this

14 report, to other civilians. They can refer to other civilians certain

15 remarks, because General Pavkovic here refers to the agreement at

16 President Milosevic's, at a meeting which was attended by the civilians

17 that are referred to here who attended the meeting of the Joint Command.

18 It was attended also by the army commander, by the Chief of the

19 General Staff, and the chief of the security administration. It was also

20 attended by President Milosevic, Stanisic probably, and any of the other

21 organs who were present there, maybe the MUP and the army organs. So I

22 assume this refers to their knowledge in relation to Belgrade what was

23 agreed at a specific state level, where state, police, and army and other

24 state organs took part, the Executive Council, the federal

25 Executive Council, representatives of the government, so these would be

Page 26543

1 the top state organs. Because these details up here are not known to me,

2 how this functioned at the level of Belgrade, but I know for sure that

3 the corps commander constantly went with the army commander in a

4 helicopter to Belgrade. This is what I do know, and they went to the

5 General Staff together. After that, they went to President Milosevic for

6 meetings, but I don't know -- all I know about these meetings and the

7 results is that I received an order to begin preparations based on a

8 decision by the Supreme Council, preparations to draft a plan to deblock

9 communications. This is all I knew --

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... talking about comments that

11 were made at the Joint Command meeting on the 10th of September, that's

12 the meeting where he says: "The other command organs pointed out that VJ

13 had not carried out two of its duties under the plan ..." he's not saying

14 that happened at the meeting on the 31st of August, 1998, right?

15 A. It doesn't say that, but he says that the agreement is such --

16 the agreement in Belgrade was attended by General Samardzic too. And he

17 refers to -- actually, he addresses General Samardzic, that he as the

18 authorised organ, the superior organ to the corps commander, should

19 intervene in that sense and approve the use and the formation of such a

20 unit for rapid intervention. So he addresses the army commander in a

21 regular procedure for it to, with his authority and force of order,

22 implements this decision that was approved at the top levels of the

23 state, that he then approves what is going on here with the organs of the

24 Joint Command.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

Page 26544

1 JUDGE BONOMY: You need to allow the interpretation to be

2 complete.

3 Mr. Fila, you wanted to say something.

4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say if you show him

5 the records from that meeting, the minutes from that meeting, I would

6 like to see if there is a single word of that that is being claimed that

7 Pavkovic said. I would like to find in the notes anything about any

8 civilian stating what Mr. Hannis is putting to you.

9 Can you please read that.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't have time to read

11 this. I'm just responding to the question.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just -- that's not the way to deal with this,

13 Mr. Fila. If you feel that your position is somehow or other prejudiced

14 by this further cross-examination, you should ask at the end of it for an

15 opportunity to clarify certain matters by asking any additional questions

16 you wish. If you feel it can't be done simply by making appropriate

17 submissions in due course, which I suspect it can be.

18 Mr. Hannis.

19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

20 Q. General, if you would go down to the bottom of the page 2 in the

21 B/C/S of that exhibit, P1435, you'll see there's a -- "we propose," a

22 couple of things that General Pavkovic proposes. I want you to read the

23 sentence right above that. Can you read that out so I can ensure the

24 translation we have is correct.

25 A. "We are providing the -- moreover, we're giving the members of

Page 26545

1 the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija the opportunity to report to

2 the president of the SRJ that the Army of Yugoslavia did not carry out

3 its duties as provided under the plan."

4 Q. Thank you. That's what we have on the English. Then one other

5 document related to this topic, P1439. I have a hard copy of this one

6 too, General. With the usher's help, I'll trade you. This is dated the

7 5th of October, 1998, again from General Pavkovic to the 3rd Army command

8 addressed to the commander. Under item number 2, the second paragraph,

9 my English translation says: "On my return from the reporting session

10 with the ZK, Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija, on 19 and 20

11 September 1998, I informed you personally by telephone of the decision to

12 form rapid intervention forces. As part of the conclusions from the

13 Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija meeting, I sent you the decision to

14 form rapid intervention units, which you forbade in your order of

15 3 October."

16 Now, would you go to the entry for the 20th of September, 1998,

17 in the Joint Command notes you took.

18 MR. HANNIS: It's page 124 of the English, Your Honours, and in

19 e-court, it's page 110 in the B/C/S.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, can you please give me the

21 date on that relevant page. Is it October?


23 Q. Yeah, I'm looking for the date of the 20th of September, the

24 meeting of 20 September.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Page 121 seems to be the 19th, 123 for the 20th --

Page 26546

1 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. 124 in the English.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, 124.

3 MR. HANNIS: Actually, the entry starts on 123, but the portion I

4 want to ask about is on 124 in the English.

5 Q. Do you find that one, General, on your B/C/S?

6 A. Yes, from the 20th of September, yes, I found it.

7 Q. And I think it's the next page for you, it's Mr. Sainovic

8 speaking. And the first thing he's recorded as saying is: "To prepare

9 units for faster interventions ..."

10 That's what it says, correct?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. I don't know, can you read the last sentence there because it's

13 marked as illegible here and I can't remember if that's one of the ones

14 you went through yesterday or not.

15 A. I probably then corrected something here most likely, but then I

16 started for Thursday, then it's crossed out, then it says "Friday the

17 commanders of the helicopter units are to come -- unit are to come at

18 10.00, operative from the army."

19 Q. Okay. Thank you.

20 MR. HANNIS: I don't have any further questions from what arose

21 yesterday, Your Honour, but there was one thing. During my

22 cross-examination of the General he had indicated that he never -- no one

23 ever used the term Joint Command in those meetings and he never wrote

24 that in the minutes. I didn't find the entries I was looking for while I

25 was talking to him, but I wanted to direct the Court to page 115 and page

Page 26547

1 142 of the English. There are two entries, one where General Pavkovic

2 says: "A body is to be formed from all the structures to take care of

3 the realization in forming the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija

4 beforehand," and at page 142 Mr. Sainovic is saying: "The Djakovica

5 model is to be applied in the village of," it's an illegible word, "and

6 in Prizren as well (meeting with the Joint Command for Kosovo and

7 Metohija)."

8 And with that --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you wanting to put these to the witness to

10 establish --

11 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, it didn't arise from

12 cross-examination.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think you should do it.

14 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Because --

16 MR. HANNIS: I brought it to your attention to see if you wanted

17 to do it or if you wanted me to do it.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue with that.


20 Q. General, yesterday I think you took the position that during

21 these meetings no one used the term "Joint Command." I would ask you to

22 look, if you can find the entry for the 8th of October, 1998.

23 MR. HANNIS: That entry actually starts on page 141 of the

24 English but in English I'm going to 142.

25 Q. Do you find that, General? At the very bottom of that page you

Page 26548

1 should see Mr. Sainovic speaking, and then on the next page in your B/C/S

2 could you read that out.

3 A. Yes.

4 "The Djakovica model should be applied to Pec and Prizren," and I

5 put in parenthesis "(notes from a meeting of the Joint Command for Kosovo

6 and Metohija on the 8th of October)."

7 This is not something that Mr. Sainovic said. I put in

8 parenthesis that this was a meeting of the Joint Command for Kosovo and

9 Metohija. He didn't refer to that, I did. In my conversation with

10 General Pavkovic, General Samardzic do refer to the Joint Command because

11 General Samardzic also asked me about meetings of the Joint Command, and

12 General Pavkovic and he did refer General Pavkovic to meetings of the

13 Joint Command.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... of September 1998. That

15 starts on page 113 of the English, Your Honour, the portion I wanted to

16 ask about is on page 115.

17 A. 15th of September, yes, I see it.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues]... if you will follow to the

19 third page, the last page for that meeting, it should be just an entry

20 for General Pavkovic.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not see the original

22 or the translation.


24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... under his name on that page.

25 A. "Plan to secure communications by secretariats."

Page 26549

1 The next one: "When the plan for fortifying position is

2 reviewed, the next, a body is to be formed of all the structures that

3 will deal with the implementation and inform the Joint Command for Kosovo

4 and Metohija beforehand."

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. HANNIS: I don't have any other questions, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I just have one intervention in the

9 transcript. I didn't want to interrupt my colleague or yourself. It is

10 page 6 of the transcript. I believe the witness said the secret name,

11 not the secretariat name, as it stands in the transcript. And it says:

12 "Like Grom or others that existed later on," and in transcript it's

13 earlier on. So that's all I have.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 Mr. Fila.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would need to put some

17 questions arising from the questions put by Mr. Hannis. First, in

18 relation to the minutes of the 9th of September he's being shown a letter

19 in which General Djakovic refers to those minutes. So my question is:

20 Is any of the civilians at that meeting on the 9th of September, 1998,

21 the one who mentions anything that General Pavkovic says, according to

22 that letter, and perhaps then we can see who Pavkovic is thinking of with

23 these - how shall we put it, what can I say? - and then you can look at

24 the 9th.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it the 10th or the 9th?

Page 26550

1 MR. HANNIS: The 10th.

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Excuse me, yes, the 10th of September.

3 I apologise.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, well, you may put your question.

5 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

6 Q. [Interpretation] General, sir, the Prosecutor showed you

7 Pavkovic's letter that you are familiar with, where he talks about

8 organs, some organs. You said one is MUP, it can be something else, I

9 don't know, it can be state security, let's say, but it doesn't matter.

10 There was an attempt to insinuate that the organs are actually those four

11 civilians and that you answered me incorrectly yesterday that the

12 civilians didn't have any influence. In your notes, is it said anywhere

13 that those civilians said anything about the matters that Pavkovic is

14 referring to in the letter?

15 A. I didn't notice, but I know that as part of the -- within the

16 command we discussed the rapid intervention forces because the

17 circumstances required us to deal with this problem, and probably

18 General Pavkovic, based on the agreement in Belgrade up there, reminded

19 the army commander about the duties that were agreed on.

20 Q. Thank you. Does that mean, am I on the right road, that Pavkovic

21 in that sense is thinking of Belgrade and not the four civilians who are

22 sitting with you there?

23 A. Based on the communication I had with General Samardzic, I know

24 that General Samardzic was informed about this proposal.

25 Q. All right. My second question. If we were to take the

Page 26551

1 suggestion that there were these civilians that, for example, these

2 forces were formed, were these forces ever formed and did

3 General Samardzic forbid the formation of these forces?

4 A. General Samardzic did not approve the forming of these forces and

5 this is something the Chief of the General Staff is aware of,

6 General Perisic.

7 Q. Were they ever formed?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. If we take the assumption stated by someone here,

10 that General Sainovic [as interpreted] is ordering all the generals of

11 the Army of Yugoslavia, does that mean that he could have issued an order

12 to Samardzic to form these forces or not?

13 A. If this was so, he could have done so, but he didn't even call

14 him. I know he did not call him because the commander of the army simply

15 did not permit the use of helicopter units in Kosovo.

16 Q. All right. And now to go back to what we discussed, the

17 Prosecutor's questions of yesterday. You said yesterday that if anyone

18 were to, anyone at these meetings - and I'm talking about the civilians,

19 only the civilians - had some kind of proposal or suggestion or anything,

20 and this was primarily the MUP, all of this had to go back to

21 General Samardzic, again for approval, so they actually had no influence

22 on implementation at all?

23 A. No direct influence at all, not according to the decisions.

24 Nobody even tried that. I know that decisions on the use of forces, I

25 never heard anyone tell them, Djakovic do this, do that, plan this,

Page 26552

1 never. They -- only the corps commander and the army commander, at least

2 to me.

3 Q. So if the commander, like you said yesterday, if the army

4 commander ultimately would approve an action, this did not go back to the

5 meeting to say that it was approved, but the next day there would be a

6 briefing about how this was referred -- how this was being implemented?

7 A. Yes, they would report back on the implementation.

8 Q. Therefore, between yesterday and today and on the basis of the

9 question you heard, has your opinion and your position in any way changed

10 with regard to these four civilians not having interfered into the

11 matters of the army?

12 A. They did not interfere with these matters.

13 Q. That was all. Thank you.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, irony often doesn't travel well in

15 translation. If you look at line -- page 21, line 7, is that an ironic

16 reference to General Sainovic?

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I didn't say General Sainovic. That

18 was an error. I said Nikola Sainovic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear General Sainovic

20 being interpreted back to me.

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I stated Nikola Sainovic. I don't

22 know how it became General.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise. Perhaps we

24 misheard.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

Page 26553

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would not agree with

2 my colleague Zecevic, who corrected the transcript, because it's page 19,

3 lines 8 and 9, when, or rather, my colleague Zecevic is right in saying

4 that it should have stated a secret name for plans, but the witness also

5 said Grom and the ones that were made before, not later. Can the tape

6 please be double-checked. We disagree amongst ourselves, not all of us

7 have heard the same, but I believe I heard the witness say that and

8 that's why I would kindly request that the tape be double-checked.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Remind me of the page and line number.

10 Mr. Bakrac, it was page 6, was it?

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Microphone not activated]

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Colleague Zecevic

14 intervened --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall ask CLSS to revise the translation of

16 page 6, lines 23 to 25, the word -- just the first three words of line

17 25.

18 It's -- would probably be ideal if everyone had an opportunity to

19 see what General Djakovic wrote out last night before he leaves here. So

20 Mr. Haider can photocopy what was written out and just in case there's

21 anything there that ought to be put to him. It won't take you long to

22 read it. The exercise we did the other day in identifying outstanding

23 matters has not -- has met with mixed results and needs to be revisited,

24 and I'm going to do that just now, and then we'll adjourn to enable

25 certain matters to be clarified and to allow counsel to read the parts of

Page 26554

1 the notes written out by General Djakovic.

2 For the moment, that completes your evidence, Mr. Djakovic, but

3 we would like you not to leave just at this stage until everyone has

4 checked what you wrote out last night to see if they want to ask briefly

5 any further questions. While we are dealing with that, looking at what

6 you wrote and reviewing certain other matters, you'll be given access to

7 the Kosovo atlas so that you can see if you can clarify any of the place

8 names. So Mr. Haider will arrange for that to be done. If it turns out

9 that no further questions are necessary, then that will bring to an end

10 the requirement that you're here. And in case you're not back in court,

11 I thank you now for coming here to assist the Tribunal with its inquiry.

12 Please leave the courtroom with the usher and we'll deal with outstanding

13 matters as quickly as possible and let you know whether you can leave as

14 quickly as possible.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Since at this point in time that is likely -- that

18 is all the evidence that's available for the Tribunal's consideration,

19 subject to various things I'm going to deal with. We should try today to

20 clear the decks of as many outstanding issues as possible, and on Friday

21 I listed a number. Some have been attended to, a number have not, and

22 the ones I'm now going to deal with include the outstanding ones from

23 Friday plus others which were not raised at that stage. When we adjourn,

24 we will expect work to be done on this so that at some stage today,

25 sooner rather than later, as many of these as possible can be removed

Page 26555

1 from the agenda.

2 Now, a number of them relate to items which have been uploaded

3 either to replace other exhibits because of amendment or as English

4 translations to accompany exhibits, and those ones largely await reaction

5 from the Prosecution. It should be possible to deal with the majority of

6 these in the course of this morning. So if you can separately,

7 Mr. Hannis, compile a list of those as I go through them and knowing that

8 we expect a response, that would be helpful.

9 I'm going to deal with these according to the order in which

10 response -- the order of where responsibility lies. So I'll start with

11 those that are there at the initiation of the Prosecution and then

12 proceed through the various accused.

13 Outstanding for the Prosecution, first of all, P2804, that was to

14 be submitted to CLSS for a revised translation due back yesterday?

15 MR. HANNIS: It was due back yesterday, but it's not back yet.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's one to be considered and responded to

17 later.

18 Secondly, the identity documents of the witness Sadiku. You have

19 a motion, Mr. Hannis, to admit P3141 and the Lukic Defence seek the

20 admission of 6D1666. It seems reasonable that if your exhibit's to be

21 admitted that theirs should also. The outstanding issue relates to the

22 translation of P3141. Has it been translated?

23 MR. HANNIS: It has, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that translation needs to be uploaded. It

25 doesn't appear to be there.

Page 26556

1 MR. HANNIS: We'll check on that, Your Honour. We thought it

2 was, but it's not showing up.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Subject to that, both of these can be admitted,

4 but we'll need to have that confirmed by you later.

5 Milutinovic Defence, Mr. O'Sullivan, any additional information

6 that you could provide on these two exhibits, the order P984 and IC133,

7 the Law of the Army of Yugoslavia?

8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's being filed today, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: It has been or will be?

10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It will be. In the next few minutes it should

11 be filed.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you make four courtesy copies or five and

13 let us have them for our break?

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I can, yes.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, the Sainovic Defence, the revised expert

16 report has been uploaded to e-court.

17 Mr. Hannis, are you able to clarify your position on that or do

18 you wish to take it under advisement?

19 MR. HANNIS: May I take it under advisement?


21 MR. HANNIS: May I take it under advisement?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

23 2D346, the Federal Government Rules of Procedure. A complete

24 version has now been uploaded. Again, that's in your hands, Mr. Hannis.

25 The Pavkovic Defence, the submission on 6D1619, a translation has

Page 26557

1 been provided of that and the document was used with the current witness

2 in court yesterday, so it has been admitted and there will be no further

3 written order, Mr. Lukic -- sorry, Mr. Ackerman. That's 6D1619.

4 Mr. Ackerman, the corrections to the OTP interview of

5 General Pavkovic, what is the situation?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no knowledge at all about that,

7 Your Honour.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Aleksic --

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm at a complete loss.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: -- batted it your way on Friday in court.

11 MR. ALEKSIC: [In English] Not me. [Interpretation] Mr. Hannis

12 said that he communicated with --

13 MR. HANNIS: Mr. Ackerman and I can talk during the break.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: We'll try that, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: The Lazarevic Defence now. The motion for

16 admission of documents from the bar table filed on the 19th of May,

17 that's on Monday, will be determined in due course. The Prosecution

18 should respond to that by Friday of this week.

19 Now, there are 76 documents, I appreciate it's a large number,

20 but it looks as though you may have time on your hands. Another of these

21 where we -- well, where the response of the Prosecution is awaited in

22 relation to translation is 5D1114 and also -- sorry, yes, 5D1428 and

23 5D1459.

24 Now, the Lukic Defence, the videos used with the

25 witness Zlatkovic have been re-disclosed as ordered. Now, have you

Page 26558

1 received these, Mr. Hannis?

2 MR. HANNIS: Yes, we have. I have no objection.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, one can be dealt with. The new versions of

4 6D295 and 6D1633 will be admitted in substitution for the existing

5 versions. 6D347, exhibit used with the witness Debeljkovic, English

6 translation, so that's another one for you, Mr. Hannis. 6D5 -- sorry,

7 6D356, 6D353, 6D344, 6D345, 6D604, 6D1251, these all require your

8 response in relation to translations, Mr. Hannis.

9 The Lukic witness statement -- sorry, that's confusing. The

10 witness statements that had been altered, these were advised to the

11 Trial Chamber by e-mail, Mr. Ivetic, and that was satisfactory for our

12 initial purposes. But they do need to be uploaded into e-court.

13 MR. IVETIC: That will be done today. That's in the process of

14 being done -- it is actually done actually. They are already in the

15 system, I just don't know if they have been released -- they have been

16 released as well. So that should already be in the system.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Haider, could you check 6D1631, is that

18 available?

19 Well, in that event, we will admit these revised versions as ...

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the position with the original statements,

22 Mr. Ivetic? Are these the identical numbers or are these being given new

23 numbers?

24 MR. IVETIC: Those are the same numbers that these statements had

25 originally. The only difference was that, I believe, the translations --

Page 26559

1 the English translations of the original Serbian statements were being

2 replaced by the CLSS officials, the --


4 MR. IVETIC: Where the full translation is CLSS as opposed to

5 partially CLSS.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, is there a reason for keeping two

7 English versions on -- in relation to these documents?

8 MR. HANNIS: Not that I can think of at the moment, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, they were the ones that were troubling you

10 because of the fact that CLSS had done the translation initially but then

11 there had been amendments to the statements and the Lukic Defence

12 arranged for other translations of the parts which were amended.

13 MR. HANNIS: Yes, and do you know what's troubling me was not

14 knowing which parts were which --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you were also troubled by the question

16 whether there might be further evidence required from any of these

17 witnesses.

18 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, I haven't looked at the new ones

19 yet to see if there's any difference that would raise that issue. I

20 doubt that there is, but I need a little time to do that.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what we shall do is admit these new English

22 translations as additional parts of these exhibits, and they are 6D1631,

23 1492, 1530, 1533, 1606, and 1614.

24 Mr. Lukic, bar table matters not yet submitted, are there many?

25 MR. IVETIC: Is that in reference to the Rule 70 materials?

Page 26560

1 We're waiting for the Rule 70 provider, that's four documents.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's all?

3 MR. IVETIC: Yes, everything else, I believe, is in our motion

4 and has been submitted for translation or is in the process of being

5 translated for those that were not translated.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: If we were to determine a final date for the

7 submission of all exhibits from the bar table for your defence case and

8 all translations and make that a week on Friday, the 30th of May, you

9 will make it, will you?

10 MR. IVETIC: I can't speak for the translations, Your Honour.

11 That's --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you know how many there are; I don't.

13 MR. IVETIC: There are a significant number. We can only say we

14 can try to get as much done by that date as possible if that's the date

15 that Your Honour submits. We -- as -- we work -- as you can see we work

16 as many hours as we can to get those done, but translations are not a

17 matter that I have much influence over.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you do.

19 MR. IVETIC: I have some, some.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: You've got some, indeed. A great deal in fact we

21 would say.

22 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, for full disclosure, I should say

23 for full answer to your question we do have the one document that

24 Your Honours have been interested in that we just received from the

25 government authorities of Serbia, 6D1667, that one has been translated

Page 26561

1 and is being uploaded. So when I say the only thing remaining

2 outstanding on bar table is Rule 70, that includes that this one has been

3 completed and will be in the system.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the dead-line, Mr. Ivetic, for any further

7 bar table motions will be the 30th of May and the dead-line for the

8 submission of all translations will be the 30th of May.

9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And for the record, line

10 30 -- paragraph -- page 30, line 21, the exhibit in question was 6D1667,

11 I see that didn't make it into the transcript.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 MR. IVETIC: And as I'm on my feet, there was one other -- in

14 your list of outstanding requests for documents that had been MFI'd to be

15 introduced there was one that we have that wasn't on your list, 6D1489, a

16 request was filed on the 29th of April in that matter, Your Honours, so I

17 don't know whether that's already been dealt with or not but it was

18 absent in the list that you recited to Mr. Hannis a while ago.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I will check that.

20 Mr. Hannis, you could perhaps look and see if that is another

21 that you can respond to.

22 Now, the interview of General Lukic with the OTP, there is

23 outstanding a motion and it will be dealt with shortly. I had expected

24 it to be done by today but for various reasons it has not been possible.

25 But that doesn't alter the fact that there may be corrections. Now, have

Page 26562

1 you been discussing corrections?

2 MR. IVETIC: It was my understanding that we had marked items for

3 retranslation along with the Sainovic Defence and had -- I believe that

4 had been submitted some time ago. I'm not positive about that, but I

5 believe it had been submitted --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: To the Prosecution?

7 MR. IVETIC: I --

8 MR. HANNIS: Yeah, we received those from the Lukic Defence the

9 same time we received the ones that Mr. Fila sent us, and that has all

10 gone to CLSS. And you will recall --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: What do Mr. Fila's relate to, sorry, Mr. Hannis?

12 MR. HANNIS: He selected certain portions of the Lukic interview

13 that he had concerns about.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

15 MR. HANNIS: And you will recall CLSS for some follow-up guidance

16 on what we wanted them to do, and that was provided to them and I'm not

17 sure what the status is but it is with CLSS.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

19 One further translation issue, Mr. Ivetic, 6D1667 used during

20 the examination of Dujkovic. I think you've obtained a MUP dispatch that

21 was to explain the communications system.

22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, a courtesy copy of the

23 translations has been sent. This is the document I made reference to

24 earlier that has a translation and is in the process of being uploaded

25 and released into e-court.

Page 26563

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Ah, sorry, I should have picked that up. So

2 that's another one for Mr. Hannis to deal with but he won't be in a

3 position to do that today? Is that --

4 MR. IVETIC: I don't want to speak for Mr. Hannis, but I presume

5 he probably may not be in a position to deal with it until later today or

6 tomorrow.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 It looks like you're the man with the answers to provide,

9 Mr. Hannis, and that Mr. Ackerman has the obligation of a discussion with

10 you.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: What we propose is adjourning for an hour. Is

13 that going to be enough, Mr. Hannis?

14 MR. HANNIS: I don't know, Your Honour. I'll do my best during

15 that time.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: If you want to communicate informally, if it's

17 proving difficult, and we might extend that time without assembling the

18 court for that purpose. But let's see what can be achieved first of all

19 and we'll adjourn for the moment until 11.30.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.07 p.m.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: First of all, does anyone wish to ask any further

24 questions of Mr. Djakovic?

25 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour.

Page 26564

1 JUDGE BONOMY: There being no one wishing to do that, he can now

2 be discharged. Immediately this hearing finishes the further information

3 he's added will be distributed to everyone, it includes certain

4 annotations trying to clarify certain matters that he's written and

5 further information about localities.

6 Now, I'll go through the outstanding matters, Mr. Hannis, that we

7 should be able to dispose of. P2804.

8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, as indicated, I'm advised that that

9 will be completed by the close of business today, and we would ask

10 permission to upload it once it's received.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Where requests are made for translations to be

12 admitted as in these circumstances, parties should understand as a matter

13 of practice from now on that unless they indicate within 24 hours any

14 challenge, the Tribunal will -- the Chamber will proceed to pronounce an

15 order dealing with the item.

16 The identity document, Mr. Hannis, which is P314 -- sorry, I

17 should have completed that by saying, yes, you make your submission as

18 soon as possible.

19 The identity document, P3141.

20 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, it has been uploaded and released

21 and attached, and we don't have any objection to the admission of 6D1666,

22 as it seems to pertain and it would be fair to have it admitted as well.

23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, on that issue I know that we did not

24 reply or I guess it was a response or reply indicated that there was the

25 one issue with the translation of one of those pages of the documents

Page 26565

1 that had some text that wasn't on the Serbian. I don't know if that's in

2 the version that's been uploaded or not since I haven't been able to see

3 it yet, my computer is still going there. But that was raised in our

4 filing so I hope that that's been addressed.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: That's P3141?

6 MR. IVETIC: Sadije Sadiku, yes.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm not sure what the issue was with

9 the translation and I can't tell you whether or not --

10 MR. IVETIC: It could be easily verified. The issue was on the

11 birth certificate it said on the top Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and

12 in the translation in the Serbian it doesn't exist because it was taken

13 out after the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ceased to exist.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: The whole purpose of resubmitting this to CLSS was

15 because there was allegedly information in the translation that was not

16 in the original.

17 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: So we will admit P3141 and 6D1666.

19 Then the courtesy copy given to us by Mr. O'Sullivan in respect

20 of his filing on the Law of the Army of Yugoslavia and the passage with

21 either two or three paragraphs, we've had time to consider that.

22 Mr. Hannis, is there any reason why we should not admit IC --

23 1C -- sorry, IC133?

24 MR. HANNIS: No, I have no objection.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well, that will be admitted, Mr. O'Sullivan.

Page 26566

1 That matter's now resolved.

2 There are then two Sainovic documents where we await your

3 reaction, Mr. Hannis.

4 MR. HANNIS: No objection to either of those.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall admit 2D393 and 2D346.

6 Corrections to the Pavkovic interview.

7 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, it had been brought to our

8 attention I think by the Chamber actually through a Legal Officer that

9 there was apparently one mistake. I've spoken with Mr. Ackerman. He has

10 no additional ones. I noted what seemed to be one additional one on that

11 same page. So we propose to submit that page, I think it's page 109 in

12 e-court, of Exhibit P948, and we requested to have a translation of that

13 page back by this Friday. And we would then seek to substitute that page

14 into e-court or attach it, whichever's the most logistically appropriate

15 procedure.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Probably substitute it.

17 Mr. Ackerman.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: No objection, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

20 We will order that that filing should be submitted by Friday.

21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if I could just intervene, I have

22 finally opened the document, P3141, the error in translation remains in

23 the translation that is in e-court. It says Federal Republic of

24 Yugoslavia, whereas the Serbian does not have that information, and the

25 seal is different, it's of a different state.

Page 26567

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: We will reconsider the decision I made a moment

3 ago and revoke the order admitting P3141. We have Mr. Hannis's

4 submission on that, and Mr. Ivetic will respond hopefully within 24

5 hours. And unless between the two of you it can be sorted out quicker

6 than that and we'll just have to pronounce a written order.

7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm willing to resubmit it to CLSS to

8 revise that because I think Mr. Ivetic is correct from what I can see.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the resubmission can't have made clear what

10 was required, Mr. Hannis.

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm willing to do what's most

12 expeditious --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: No, please do it, it will be necessary, in which

14 case we will leave it to you to make the appropriate filing.

15 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: But we'll order you to do that by Friday.

17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. We will.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: There were then certain Lazarevic documents

19 awaiting your reaction, 5D1114 and 1428 and 1459.

20 MR. HANNIS: No objection to any of those three.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. They will be admitted.

22 Then turning to the Lukic case, 6D347.

23 MR. HANNIS: No objection.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: That will be admitted.

25 And then there's a series, 356, 353, 344, and 345.

Page 26568

1 MR. HANNIS: No objection.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: These will be admitted. Then 6D604 and 6D1251.

3 MR. HANNIS: 604, as I understand the application, was for

4 certain pages from that entire document, and as proposed no objection.

5 And no objection to 1251.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: It's 38 pages, and therefore both that and 1251

7 will be admitted.

8 Now, I understand that the corrections in the Lukic interview

9 have been translated. Has that translation been uploaded, Mr. Hannis?

10 MR. HANNIS: It's --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, yes --

12 MR. HANNIS: -- in the process as I understand it, Your Honour.

13 And I guess a word of explanation. It appears that CLSS made their

14 entries in red on the document, so where there is the English, for

15 example, Investigator Curtis asked questions in English, then there is a

16 B/C/S translation by the interpreter on site during the interview, and

17 CLSS in some of those places where there was an issue has put what the

18 B/C/S says and you'll see there might be some slight variation in that

19 English translation from what the original English was for whatever

20 argument there is to be made from it. From my view, it doesn't appear to

21 be serious differences, but it's not exactly word for word.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you intend to make a filing in response then?

23 It's the Lukic Defence that have uploaded this I think -- are we at

24 cross-purposes here? We're talking about 6D1667.

25 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, I'm talking about something else,

Page 26569

1 Your Honour. I thought you were talking about the Lukic interview.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, let's go to the interview then in that

3 case. In relation to the interview, you should have received now an

4 English -- a translation of the parts that were to be corrected; is that

5 right?

6 MR. HANNIS: Correct.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: And you better repeat -- since I was thinking

8 about something else you better repeat what you said.

9 MR. HANNIS: It's in the process of being uploaded and what

10 changes or what additions CLSS made in the transcript in the highlighted

11 portions that we requested them to look at are in red ink. Everything

12 else is in black so you can see what CLSS has done.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ivetic, is there any objections from your

14 point of view to the admission of this translation?

15 MR. IVETIC: Yes, we filed an objection for other reasons. I

16 haven't seen these. I would have to look through them to see what -- and

17 I assume if they're translated they're translated so that shouldn't be an

18 issue. But I haven't seen the translations as yet because it was sent by

19 the OTP so we don't have a -- and CLSS can't give us copies and you have

20 to get --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Since we are to deal with the question of the

22 interview, it would be necessary for you to make any filing you want to

23 make about the translation question separately but within 24 hours.

24 MR. IVETIC: 24 hours. Thank you, Your Honour, we will.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: And, Mr. Petrovic, this affects you, I think, as

Page 26570

1 well.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we did, indeed, raise

3 those objections in terms of the content of the transcript, while it

4 wasn't clear that the content of this interview would not directly relate

5 to our client. Since this question was resolved ultimately through your

6 decision, we accept any procedure that the Lukic Defence and the

7 Prosecutor agree on. We waive our objections.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 Well, there will be a written order dealing with this interview

10 and it will deal with the question of the translation at the same time.

11 That -- there's then 6D1667, now that's a translation which has been

12 uploaded, Mr. Hannis, but have you had time to see this one?

13 MR. HANNIS: I have, Your Honour, and we have no objection.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. 6D1667 translation will be admitted.

15 You raised as an omission from the list, Mr. Ivetic, 6D1489. In

16 fact, that is a document on your bar table motion, and until the bar

17 table motion is dealt with the translation can't really be dealt with.

18 MR. IVETIC: That's fine then in that case, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Are there any other procedural issues parties wish

20 us to address?

21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think there was the issue regarding

22 the revised versions of the Lukic witness statements, and I have no

23 objection to those.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I think I already said that these were admitted,

25 and the outstanding question was whether to substitute them for the

Page 26571

1 existing exhibit or whether both should remain and for the moment it was

2 both. Now, if you're satisfied they can be substituted then that

3 progresses matters because that will have to be resolved.

4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm satisfied with them being

5 substituted.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Well, that will happen in the case of

7 each of these exhibits, and they are 6D1631, 1492, 1530, 1533, 1606, and

8 1614. Very well. Thank you.

9 MR. HANNIS: May I raise two questions with Your Honour?

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Hannis.

11 MR. HANNIS: One, you indicated that from now on the general rule

12 regarding these translations would be if there was no objection from a

13 party within 24 hours then they would be allowed in. I know there's --

14 you set a dead-line for the 30th of May for the Defence -- for

15 Lukic Defence regarding their outstanding translations. I don't know how

16 many there are. I think there's still a substantial number. The 30th of

17 May falls on a Friday and depending on how many there are I would like to

18 have additional time so I don't have to work 24 hours on Saturday to try

19 and respond. Maybe I'll have no objections, but I just don't know. So I

20 would request now some dead-line beyond 24 hours for those particular

21 items.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: For the ones that arrive on the 30th?

23 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, for any that arrive on the 30th,

25 we will allow you until the Wednesday to deal with them.

Page 26572

1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Should there be a situation where additional time

3 is required, then you know that you should apply to us, but that

4 application should be made within 24 hours of receiving the document

5 unless it falls on the 30th of May.

6 MR. HANNIS: I understand.

7 I see Mr. Ackerman on his feet.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, there's an ancillary issue that may cause

9 confusion and that is the untranslated documents that are listed in the

10 Lukic bar table motion. I trust those are not affected by the May 30th

11 dead-line issue, I don't know, because they haven't even been dealt with

12 with regard to admission yet. But we had both -- Mr. Hannis and I both

13 requested in our objections that we be given additional time to deal with

14 those that have not yet been translated in terms of objecting to the bar

15 table. So I don't know how you want to handle that, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the 30th of May is the dead-line for the

17 translations, and we will separately deal with the issue that you raise

18 on the understanding that the English versions will be there by the 30th.

19 MR. HANNIS: The last thing, Your Honour, was a logistical

20 question regarding the additions that General Djakovic now has made by

21 writing out --


23 MR. HANNIS: And I'm not sure how we should put those into

24 e-court in connection with P1468 because we have made a number of

25 references to the pre-existing page numbers without the newly identified

Page 26573

1 illegible portions.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: That will be dealt with in the way I indicated

3 earlier, which is by a joint filing by all parties. So it is for you to

4 reach agreement on what you do. It would probably be best to keep what

5 he has written separate -- as a separate document but part of that

6 exhibit; however, if it emerges from your consideration of the whole

7 issue that the revisal should be incorporated into one complete version

8 of 1468, including his revisals, then you would make an appropriate

9 filing and we would consider it. But you rightly point out the

10 difficulty associated with that in respect that references have been made

11 to the document a number of times. However, you could probably satisfy

12 yourself whether that is a difficulty and decide what's the best way to

13 do it.

14 We are asking CLSS to deal with this as a matter of urgency, and

15 I envisage this being done this week and the parties being in a position

16 to make this filing at the beginning of next week at the latest but

17 hopefully by the end of this week. Mr. Haider will deal with it

18 immediately we adjourn.

19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Haider is suggesting that we give an IC number

22 to the handwritten version provided by Mr. Djakovic. I think we should

23 do that and we will.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE BONOMY: So since that includes the place names that he was

Page 26574

1 clarifying then, if we give that one document an IC number for the moment

2 it will be on the record.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC199, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 As the parties here are aware but as is not yet publicly known,

6 the Trial Chamber has endeavoured to secure the attendance of certain

7 Chamber witnesses in addition to Mr. Djakovic. The Chamber has been

8 unable to secure the attendance of Christopher Hill, Boris Majorski and

9 Aleksandar Dimitrijevic. We will therefore adjourn now until the 22nd of

10 July at 11.00 a.m., when we will hear closing arguments. We hope to have

11 the rest of the 22nd of July available to us and we hope to have the

12 following three full days, but that remains to be determined. The

13 precise allocation we can secure cannot be clarified to us at this

14 moment. We are confident there will be adequate time during these four

15 days leading to the final day of this term, that's the 25th, for the

16 closing arguments of the parties, that's almost nine weeks from now.

17 In the meantime, final briefs are due on the 8th of July but the

18 Chamber would be greatly assisted by the earlier production of these

19 briefs if any party finds it possible to do that.

20 So we now adjourn until the 22nd of July.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.30 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of

23 July, 2008, at 11.00 a.m.