Page 35
1 Monday, 4 July 2011
2 [Further Initial Appearance]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 10.07 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Mr. Mladic, would you please be so kind to focus your attention
8 on the Chamber and remove your cap, please.
9 Could Mr. Mladic be assisted in taking off his cap. Thank you
10 very much.
11 Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic.
12 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. I call case number
14 IT-09-92-I, Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 Mr. Mladic, during the initial appearance -- you are invited to
17 put on your earphones because otherwise you'll not be able to attend
18 to -- Mr. Mladic, wait for a second. You'll have an opportunity to speak
19 soon.
20 I already would like to start with the following observation.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot hear anything.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, wait until I give you an opportunity to
23 speak.
24 Could we verify that he's on the -- could we verify that
25 Mr. Mladic is on the right channel, which is, I take it, channel 6.
Page 36
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I can hear the Serbian
2 language.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, would you please remain silent at this
4 moment. Wait for a second. You'll have an opportunity to speak.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: On the 3rd of June, the Chamber noticed that there
7 was some undesirable silent communication between you, Mr. Mladic, and
8 the public gallery. It seems that this communication was initiated from
9 both sides, that is, from you and from the public gallery. The Chamber
10 will not allow this to happen again. The attendance of the public serves
11 the public character of the trial, not to facilitate communication
12 between the accused and the public, let alone to give an opportunity to
13 express, although silently, any feelings of misgiving by the public
14 towards the accused or vice versa. Measures will be taken if you,
15 Mr. Mladic, or the public would not follow these instructions.
16 Mr. Mladic, already to tell you that representation will be one
17 of the next matters to be discussed.
18 Mr. Mladic, you are communicating with the public gallery. I
19 told you before that measures would be taken if you continue to do that.
20 So would you please focus your attention on the Chamber and not
21 communicate with the public gallery. So please look in our direction.
22 We are addressing you.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, I said that you will have an opportunity
25 to speak soon. Let me first introduce this hearing. During the
Page 37
1 initial -- let me first say good morning to everyone and may I have the
2 appearances first.
3 Prosecution.
4 MR. GROOME: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Prosecution
5 Dermot Groome, Peter McCloskey, and Ms. Janet Stewart.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
7 Could I have the appearances of the Defence.
8 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] For the Defence of
9 General Ratko Mladic, Aleksandar Aleksic, duty counsel. However,
10 Your Honour, I would kindly ask you if I may address you straight away,
11 just a few sentences.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a few sentences you are allowed to speak.
13 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since the initial
14 appearance of General Mladic until today I visited him in detention more
15 than ten times. I had totally normal communication with him until last
16 Friday when we last saw each other. On that occasion, General Mladic
17 told me that today he would not appear in court because his chosen
18 counsel has not been appointed yet. However, this morning when he came
19 to the Tribunal, General Mladic refused to communicate with me and he did
20 not want me to be present here this morning.
21 In view of the fact that the Registrar extended the dead-line for
22 the appointment of permanent counsel to General Mladic until the
23 1st of August, this year, I would like to add my own voice to that. And
24 due to this overall situation, I would like to ask the Trial Chamber to
25 postpone the entering of General Mladic's plea until a later date.
Page 38
1 Rule 62(A)(iv) speaks in the plural of initial appearances and
2 says if the accused does not enter a plea during the initial appearances,
3 then the Trial Chamber is going to take measures. For the protection of
4 General Mladic's interests, I kindly ask that the entering of his plea be
5 postponed. If he is against my presence in this courtroom, I would like
6 to ask the Trial Chamber for leave to leave the courtroom. Thank you,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Aleksic. We'll deal with the
9 representation but we'll first consider your request.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Aleksic, you have made two requests. The first
12 is to postpone the -- this hearing and give an opportunity to Mr. Mladic
13 to enter a plea at a later point in time. That request is denied.
14 The second request was that you would be allowed to leave the
15 courtroom. That request is denied as well. The Chamber fully
16 understands that you're without instructions at this moment, which does
17 not make your task very easy. At the same time, you are appointed as
18 duty counsel, and what the Chamber invites you to do is to intervene even
19 without instructions, to intervene whenever you consider it to be in the
20 best interests of Mr. Mladic to intervene. We'll deal with
21 representation, as I announced before, soon.
22 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. Thank
23 you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then introduce today's hearing.
25 Mr. Mladic, during the initial appearance of the 3rd of June,
Page 39
1 2011, you decided not to enter a plea on the counts of the indictment.
2 Instead, you chose to do so 30 days from the initial appearance, at least
3 you asked for more time but that's what the Chamber decided, that is,
4 within the 30 days as provided for by the Rules. And it is for this
5 purpose that the Chamber has scheduled today's hearing. Before we
6 proceed, however, with this, the Chamber would like to deal with some
7 other matters first.
8 During the initial appearance - and I'm talking about your
9 health - you have drawn the Chamber's attention to a number of issues
10 related to your health. You then gave consent for the Registry to
11 provide the Chamber with your medical documentation. Subsequent to the
12 initial appearance, the Chamber requested that the Registry provide this
13 documentation to the Chamber no later than the 29th of June, 2011, and
14 informed the Registry accordingly through an informal communication.
15 According to a memorandum from the Registrar to the Chamber dated
16 the 30th of June, 2011, the reporting medical officer at the
17 United Nations Detention Unit indicated that no longer gave your consent
18 to provide the Chamber with your medical documentation. Therefore, the
19 Chamber did not receive it. The reporting medical officer further
20 informed the Chamber that in his opinion there was no medical reason
21 which would prohibit you from attending and participating in the further
22 appearance which was scheduled for today. And it is on this basis that
23 the Chamber has decided to proceed as planned today.
24 I now move to the second item I would like to raise, that is,
25 your legal representation. On the 1st of July, 2011, the Registrar
Page 40
1 requested an extension of time for the assignment of permanent counsel
2 for you pursuant to Rule 62(C) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
3 In the Registry's request, which was filed publicly, the Registrar sets
4 out the steps taken by representatives of the Registry and by --
5 representatives of the Registry and you, Mr. Mladic, with regard to this
6 issue. Based on the information provided to the Chamber, the Chamber is
7 satisfied that this matter is about to be resolved and that the Chamber
8 has granted -- grants the request for assignment of counsel a bit later
9 than provided for in the Rules.
10 Apparently your representation is a matter of major concern to
11 you at this moment. I therefore invite you to briefly address the
12 Chamber on the matter, but before you do so I already introduce the
13 matter as follows. You've had, I think, all together four meetings with
14 the Registry in which assignment of counsel was discussed. The Chamber
15 was also informed that you had expressed your preference for counsel to
16 be assigned. I do understand that your preference was Mr. Saljic from
17 Belgrade and a lawyer from Russia. The Chamber was also informed that at
18 a point in time -- Mr. Mladic, if you continue to address the public
19 gallery rather than the Chamber, as I said before, measures will be
20 taken.
21 Yes, Mr. Mladic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
23 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't activate your microphone, we'll not
24 hear you. If you want to say anything, please ...
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Orie, I am not underestimating
Page 41
1 you in any way. I hear better in my left ear and I'm cold on my head.
2 Let me put my cap on. Half of my body isn't functioning. I'm not
3 underestimating you in any way. I want to communicate with you in a
4 humane way. You are trying to impose impossible conditions on me, a
5 lawyer I don't want and --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am just going to look at you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, if there's any problem with your medical
9 condition, the Chamber could have addressed that matter if it would have
10 had the medical information which you told we should not receive.
11 Therefore, under the present circumstances we'll just continue and
12 there's no need to put a cap on your head. If any medical information at
13 any later stage would indicate that this would be an appropriate measure
14 to meet -- to meet your medical concerns, then we'll consider that.
15 Mr. Mladic, I invited you to briefly address the representation
16 issue. As I said before, you had had four meetings with Registry staff.
17 You have expressed your preference for preferred counsel to be present.
18 They have not been assigned yet. Apart from the two preferred counsel at
19 any point in time also a list of seven potential counsel has been
20 discussed with you. One of the issues which needs to be resolved is that
21 there's no right of audience for any counsel who is not qualified and as
22 a result admitted to the list. I do understand that the Registry is
23 working hard on verifying whether counsel of your preference, whether
24 they could be admitted to the list, yes or no, whether they qualify, yes
25 or no. So that matter is dealt with.
Page 42
1 I also understand that it was only very recently that you came up
2 with names, not giving the Registry much opportunity to deal with the
3 matter. I think they were left with only seven to ten days to deal with
4 the matter.
5 I further understand that an opportunity has been given even to
6 visit you during the weekends and that every -- any potential counsel was
7 able to visit you. So therefore the Registry is working hard on the
8 matter and the matter not yet being resolved but soon being resolved, we
9 will proceed. If, however, you would like to raise any matter in this
10 respect, you have a brief opportunity to do so now.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How much time do I have in terms of
12 minutes to say this briefly?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's say it's my provisional assessment that
14 two minutes or three minutes will do. Please proceed.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since I'm an elderly man and
16 sickly, can I be given five minutes to say that?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, you are invited to start. If you --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand. I understood that.
19 Mr. Orie, to cut this story short, I request that two attorneys
20 attend my trial, Mr. Milos Saljic and Mr. Alexander Mezyaev. Mr. Saljic
21 was a military judge for many years, highly competent. He visited me in
22 my cell and I spoke to him at length, for four hours. I wish --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, one second. If you have certain counsel
24 of preference, you don't have to explain the reasons to the Court why you
25 prefer them. We do understand that you have had discussions with all
Page 43
1 potential counsel, including Mr. Saljic. Therefore, that is understood.
2 Please proceed.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I ask you kindly that
4 Mr. Alexander Mezyaev be allowed to come. I don't know him personally.
5 I would like him to come so that we meet and that he, Saljic, and I draft
6 the concept of my defence before this Court. As for other attorneys, I'm
7 not asking for them and I don't need them.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, whether or not someone can visit you in
9 the United Nations Detention Unit is in the hands of the Registry. So I
10 take it, Mr. Registrar, that you have taken notice of the fact that
11 Mr. Mladic would like to be visited by Mr. Mezyaev. Is that correct?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, we will facilitate the visit.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
14 Any other matter, Mr. Mladic, in relation to your representation.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish for you to extend my time.
16 I would kindly ask for a month so that together with my two lawyers and
17 my son, we meet up at the Detention Unit and that we clarify the
18 situation that I'm in. I with them and they with me. It's no use for
19 you to try imposing a lawyer on me through the Registry. As for this
20 young man, he's young and likable. I don't want to offend him in any
21 way --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, as I told you before, assignment of
23 counsel is primary responsibility of the Registrar. We have received
24 reports. You are working hard with the Registry on this matter to be
25 resolved. And let me just consult with my colleagues.
Page 44
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, a similar request was made by
3 Mr. Aleksic a couple of minutes ago, the request was denied and your
4 submissions have not changed the position of the Chamber in this respect.
5 Therefore, we will proceed, but before we go into the procedure of --
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I won't.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, you'll have an opportunity to speak if I
8 give you an opportunity to do so.
9 Mr. Mladic, my question to you is -- and I can guess what the
10 answer will be but let's just hear it from you. Are you ready to enter
11 pleas today, yes or no?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Orie, you can do whatever you
13 want. Without Mr. Saljic and without Mr. Alexander Mezyaev, there is no
14 need for me to receive anything or to say anything, and you do as you
15 wish. You are not letting me have --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, I do understand --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You want to impose --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, I do not want to impose anything. I
19 refer you to the Registrar to resolve the matter -- could you please --
20 could you please be silent, Mr. -- when I'm speaking, Mr. Mladic.
21 We refer the matter of assignment of counsel is at this moment
22 discussed between you and the Registrar and that's how it is.
23 Under the circumstances, I understood your answer to be that you
24 are not ready to enter a plea at this moment. Therefore, there's no need
25 to explain to you exactly how we would proceed if you would be ready to
Page 45
1 enter a plea, but I'll just inform you that Rule 62(A)(iv) provides:
2 "The Trial Chamber or the Judge shall:
3 "If the accused fails to enter a plea at the initial or any
4 further appearance, enter a plea of not guilty on the accused's behalf."
5 And we'll proceed on that basis. I will read the counts and then
6 the Chamber will enter a plea on your behalf --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, no, don't read it to me,
8 not a single word.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, would you not
10 interrupt me. Under count --
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have to interrupt you --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have a lawyer.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, if you do not stop to interrupt me, the
16 Chamber will consider whether or not you should be removed from the
17 courtroom. We proceed --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Remove me now.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll proceed.
20 Under Count 1, you --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't go on, Mr. Orie, please. Let
22 my attorney Milos Saljic come and then -- then you can speak.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, I'll inform you, in addition to what I
24 earlier said, of the following. It has been discussed among the Judges
25 of this Chamber whether Mr. Saljic, who is counsel of preference
Page 46
1 apparently, could attend this hearing this morning. The Chamber would
2 not have opposed to Mr. Saljic sitting next to Mr. Aleksic, so as to be
3 able to assist him, awaiting further verification of his qualifications.
4 The Chamber was informed that Mr. Saljic, where there was no request ever
5 made, but nevertheless we considered the matter, left The Hague and that
6 is, as far as I'm concerned, the main reason why Mr. Saljic is not
7 sitting just in front of you.
8 Mr. Mladic, my last -- if you say, I will continue to
9 interrupt --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, you're not right. You're
11 wrong.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We're not going to discuss you. I hereby you
13 instruct you not to interrupt me anymore and to wait until I give you an
14 opportunity to speak. And I will proceed.
15 Under Count 1, Mr. Mladic, you are charged with genocide,
16 punishable under Article 4(3)(a) of the Statute --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, I'm not going to listen to
18 this. I'm not going to listen to this at all. Without my lawyer, I'm
19 not going to listen anymore.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're talking in vain. I'm not
22 going to listen to anything without Saljic.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, the
24 Court orders that you be removed from the courtroom.
25 Could security please escort Mr. Mladic out of the courtroom.
Page 47
1 Could Mr. Mladic --
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're not a court. Who are you?
3 You're not allowing me to breathe.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for a moment. We adjourn for a moment.
5 Curtains down, please. We resume soon.
6 --- Break taken at 10.38 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We resume this hearing. I just had started to
9 reading the counts.
10 Count 1. Under Count 1, Mr. Mladic is charged with genocide,
11 punishable under Article 4(3)(a) of the Statute of the Tribunal. This
12 count focuses on events in a number of municipalities in Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina between the 12th of May and the 31st of December, 1992.
14 Mr. Mladic is charged with both individual criminal responsibility under
15 Article 7(1) of the Statute and superior responsibility pursuant to
16 Article 7(3) of the Statute.
17 The Chamber enters a plea of not guilty on behalf of Mr. Mladic.
18 Under Count 2, Mr. Mladic is charged with genocide, punishable
19 under Article 4(3)(a) of the Statute of the Tribunal. This count focuses
20 specifically on the events in and nearby Srebrenica in 1995. Mr. Mladic
21 is charged with both individual criminal responsibility under
22 Article 7(1) of the Statute and superior responsibility pursuant to
23 Article 7(3) of the Statute.
24 The Chamber enters a plea of not guilty on behalf of Mr. Mladic.
25 Under Count 3, Mr. Mladic is charged with persecutions on
Page 48
1 political, racial, and religious grounds, a crime against humanity,
2 punishable under Article 5(h) of the Statute of the Tribunal. Mr. Mladic
3 is charged with both individual criminal responsibility pursuant to
4 Article 7(1) of the Statute and superior responsibility under
5 Article 7(3) of the Statute.
6 A plea of not guilty is entered by the Chamber on behalf of
7 Mr. Mladic.
8 Under Count 4, Mr. Mladic is charged with extermination, a crime
9 against humanity, punishable under Article 5(b) of the Statute of the
10 Tribunal. He is charged both with individual criminal responsibility
11 under Article 7(1) of the Statute and superior responsibility pursuant to
12 Article 7(3) of the Statute.
13 The Chamber enters a plea of not guilty on behalf of Mr. Mladic.
14 Under Count 5, Mr. Mladic is charged with murder, a crime against
15 humanity, punishable under Article 5(a) of the Statute of the Tribunal.
16 He is charged with both individual criminal responsibility pursuant to
17 Article 7(1) of the Statute and superior responsibility under
18 Article 7(3) of the Statute.
19 The Chamber enters a plea of not guilty on behalf of Mr. Mladic.
20 Under Count 6, Mr. Mladic is charged with murder, a violation of
21 the laws or customs of war, punishable under Article 3 of the Statute of
22 the Tribunal. He is charged both with individual criminal responsibility
23 pursuant to Article 7(1) of the Statute and superior responsibility under
24 Article 7(3) of the Statute.
25 The Chamber enters a plea of not guilty on behalf of Mr. Mladic.
Page 49
1 Under Count 7, Mr. Mladic is charged with deportation, a crime
2 against humanity, punishable under Article 5(d) of the Statute of the
3 Tribunal. He is charged both with individual criminal responsibility
4 pursuant to Article 7(1) of the Statute and superior responsibility under
5 Article 7(3) of the Statute.
6 The Chamber enters on behalf of Mr. Mladic a plea of not guilty.
7 Under Count 8, Mr. Mladic is charged with other inhumane acts,
8 forcible transfer, a crime against humanity, punishable under
9 Article 5(i) of the Statute. He is charged both with individual criminal
10 responsibility pursuant to Article 7(1) of the Statute and superior
11 responsibility under Article 7(3) of the Statute.
12 The Chamber hereby enters a plea on behalf of Mr. Mladic of
13 not guilty.
14 Under Count 9, Mr. Mladic is charged with acts of violence, the
15 primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian
16 population, a violation of the laws or customs of war, punishable under
17 Article 3 of the Statute of the International Tribunal. And he's charged
18 both with individual criminal responsibility pursuant to Article 7(1) of
19 the Statute and superior responsibility under Article 7(3) of the
20 Statute.
21 The Chamber enters on behalf of Mr. Mladic a plea of not guilty.
22 Under Count 10, Mr. Mladic is charged with unlawful attacks on
23 civilians, a violation of the laws or customs of war, punishable under
24 Article 3 of the Statute of the International Tribunal. He is charged
25 both with individual criminal responsibility pursuant to Article 7(1) of
Page 50
1 the Statute and superior responsibility under Article 7(3) of the
2 Statute.
3 On behalf of Mr. Mladic the Chamber enters a plea of not guilty.
4 Under Count 11, Mr. Mladic is charged with the taking of
5 hostages, a violation of the laws or customs of war, punishable under
6 Article 3 of the Statute of the International Tribunal. He is charged
7 both with individual criminal responsibility pursuant to Article 7(1) of
8 the Statute and superior responsibility under Article 7(3) of the
9 Statute.
10 And the Chamber enters on behalf of Mr. Mladic a plea of
11 not guilty.
12 I deal with a few other matters. The Chamber would like to deal
13 with some additional matters.
14 On the 14th of June of this year, the Prosecution asked the
15 Chamber about the exact scope of the disclosure obligation and, more
16 specifically, if the obligation covered the supporting material for
17 previous versions of the indictment as well. On the 16th of June, 2011,
18 the Chamber then informed the Prosecution that the disclosure obligation
19 covered the supporting material for the operative indictment. It further
20 advised the Prosecution to disclose at least lists of the supporting
21 material for the previous versions of the indictment. The Chamber also
22 reminded the Prosecution that already at the initial appearance the
23 Chamber had instructed the Prosecution to disclose the material related
24 to the Rule 61 hearing. These communications were done through informal
25 means, on which the duty counsel was copied, and they are hereby put on
Page 51
1 the record.
2 On the 1st of July, 2011, the Prosecution filed a public notice
3 on disclosure, indicating that it had fulfilled its obligations pursuant
4 to Rule 66(A)(i), but there was one matter not entirely clear.
5 Perhaps, Mr. Groome, in paragraph 3 of this notice and also in
6 footnote 3 you said something about electronic disclosure. Does the
7 Chamber well understand that hard copy disclosure has been completed but
8 that you're still working on electronic disclosure?
9 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. The Prosecution has fully complied
10 with 66(A)(i). With respect to other material related to the Rule 61
11 hearing which the Chamber instructed the Prosecution to disclose, the
12 technology used during the Rule 61 hearing is not -- is no longer in use
13 by the technicians here at the Tribunal. So they are in the process of
14 making audio copies of the B/C/S version of the Rule 61 hearing. The
15 English version has been fully disclosed in hard copy.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that clarifies the matter. Thank you for this
17 information.
18 Mr. Aleksic, I do not know whether you'll be able to communicate
19 directly with the accused or whether it will be in the context of
20 communication with permanent counsel once assigned, but I would like to
21 draw your attention to Rule 72(A) in relation to preliminary motions. I
22 just read the rule to you as a reminder, and I start halfway in the
23 second half of this article.
24 "Subject to any order made by a Judge or the Trial Chamber, where
25 permanent counsel has not yet been assigned to or retained by the
Page 52
1 accused, or where the accused has not yet elected in writing to conduct
2 his or her defence in accordance with Rule 45(F), the 30-day time-limit
3 under this Rule," that's the time-limit for filing preliminary motions,
4 "shall not run, notwithstanding the disclosure to the Defence of the
5 material and statements referred to in Rule 66(A)(i), until permanent
6 counsel has been assigned to the accused."
7 Mr. Aleksic, the Chamber -- and again, I do not know whether you
8 will be in a position to discuss it with the accused or otherwise.
9 Perhaps you could discuss it with permanent counsel once being assigned.
10 The Chamber understood that Mr. Mladic had some concerns about
11 transportation from the United Nations Detention Unit to the premises of
12 the Tribunal. I inform you that the responsibility for that
13 transportation is in the hands of the host state. Therefore, the
14 Registry is not directly responsible but is quite willing, as they told
15 me -- is quite willing to address any concerns Mr. Mladic may have. So
16 that should be communicated then with the Registry and then the Registry
17 will take it up with the host country.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Aleksic, would you --
20 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Concerning
21 disclosure under 66(A), I've understood what you've just read and the
22 Rule 72, and on this issue I discussed this with General Mladic last
23 Friday and he stated that he did not want me to receive any 66 material.
24 On the other hand, and in view of the events earlier today, I have
25 informed my learned friends from the Prosecution that I don't want to
Page 53
1 receive that material, and in view of what General Mladic stated earlier
2 today, I don't want to do anything against his will. Therefore, I would
3 kindly ask the Trial Chamber to issue instructions or guide-lines on the
4 record that if it is my duty as duty counsel to receive Rule 66 material,
5 to say so on the record. And then in further discussions with the
6 Registry I will ask to be relieved of this assignment as duty counsel
7 because I have other obligations and I would not like to do anything
8 against the interests of my other clients or against the interests of
9 General Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Aleksic. I'll discuss the matter
11 with my colleagues.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Aleksic, it is part of your duty to receive any
14 disclosure material. Of course, this Chamber is not competent to decide
15 what you should do with it, but at least you should take care that it is
16 all passed on to permanent counsel once he is assigned. Otherwise there
17 would be a risk of this material being lost for the Defence on the long
18 term and that's what the Chamber wants to avoid. Whether and when you
19 will be relieved from your duties as duty counsel is -- of course highly
20 depends on how the discussions on the assignment of permanent counsel
21 will develop.
22 Therefore, I can't give you any answer, final answer, to that
23 apart from the fact that it's not the Chamber that assigns or relieves
24 counsel but it is the Registry.
25 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I have understood my obligations
Page 54
1 under the Rule. Thank you, Your Honours.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, is there any matter the Prosecution
4 would like to address at this moment?
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution requests that
6 Mr. Aleksic and the Registrar notify the Office of the Prosecutor when
7 other counsel is formally assigned to the case. The Prosecution will at
8 that time immediately commence the transfer of other materials required
9 by the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. That's all, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
11 Mr. Aleksic, any other matter you would like to raise?
12 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Not for the time being,
13 Your Honours. If anything turns up, I will address either the Registrar
14 or the Trial Chamber in writing depending on the issue I want to raise.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Aleksic. I take it that if you have
16 further communication with Mr. Mladic that you'll inform him that the
17 Chamber has entered pleas on his behalf, pleas of not guilty. And you
18 might even add to that that if Mr. Mladic would be inclined at any moment
19 to change that plea, that that is, of course, possible. That's not for
20 the first time that this would happen in this Tribunal.
21 I then can inform the parties that the Chamber will schedule a
22 Status Conference in due course following further information from the
23 Registry with regard to the assignment of counsel.
24 We adjourn sine die.
25 --- Whereupon the Further Initial Appearance
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1 adjourned at 11.09 a.m. sine die
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