Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1015

 1                           Wednesday, 18 July 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?  But I think

11     you would like to first make some submissions, Mr. Groome.

12             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  On a few matters.  We are usually waiting a few

14     seconds until the witness comes in.  If I do understand that there were

15     three items.  If you would start with the first one and then we already

16     asked the usher to bring the witness into the courtroom and then we may

17     have heard the first one once the witness is there.

18             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

20             And, Mr. Groome, you may proceed.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I can take this opportunity to

22     introduce the Chamber to Mr. Kweku Vanderpuye, who will be taking the

23     next witness, Mr. Kingori.

24             Your Honour, the first issue then that I would address would be

25     with respect to P18.  On Monday the Defence objected to the Prosecution's

Page 1016

 1     tendering of 65 ter 28052, which was then marked for identification as

 2     P18.  It is a report of a meeting between each of the three army

 3     commanders held at the airport on the 11th of July, 1995.  The meeting

 4     culminated in an agreement that was signed by Rasim Delic for the Bosnian

 5     army; Tihomir Blaskic for the HVO; and Ratko Mladic for the VRS.  I do

 6     not believe its relevance is contested, simply whether it meets the legal

 7     standard required for an exhibit to be considered an associated exhibit.

 8     The Chamber asked me to address where in P1, Mr. Harland's statement,

 9     this document was dealt with and why it is the Prosecution's position

10     that it is an exhibit which is associated to that statement.

11             Your Honours, both the Prosecution and Defence when calling a

12     witness pursuant to 92 ter may seek to admit exhibits associated to that

13     written evidence.  This is well established in the jurisprudence of the

14     Tribunal.  This body of jurisprudence stands for the proposition that an

15     exhibit which is an inseparable and indispensable part of the witness's

16     written evidence is an associated exhibit, and such a test is met if the

17     witness discusses the document in his or her written statement or

18     transcript and if that written statement or transcript would have less

19     probative value without its admission.

20             This report and agreement are the subject of three paragraphs in

21     P1, paragraphs 160 to 162.  And if Your Honours would like to look at

22     those paragraphs, they can be found on e-court page 48 of the original

23     and 33 of the translation of Mr. Harland's statement.  Mr. Harland

24     describes the signing of the agreement at the airport on the 11th of

25     January in -- and very briefly summarises the basic terms of the

Page 1017

 1     agreement.  He goes on to say that the agreement was not in fact

 2     implemented, attributing it to "all three sides clearly had other plans."

 3             Also relevant to the Chamber's consideration of this issue is

 4     Mr. Lukic's query on cross-examination regarding this document, and that

 5     can be found at transcript page 834.

 6             Your Honours, the Prosecution's position is that the statement of

 7     Mr. Harland has less probative value for the Chamber if the Chamber does

 8     not have the benefit of the agreement itself.  Mr. Harland only

 9     summarises the document to the extent necessary to discuss it in his

10     statement.  The Chamber should not substitute the original text agreed

11     and signed by the accused and other significant persons relevant to this

12     case with Mr. Harland's summary.  The agreement itself is the best

13     evidence of what is contained within that agreement and what Mr. Mladic

14     assented to by his signature.  It is for these reasons the Prosecution

15     submits that P18 meets the legal test for admission as an exhibit

16     associated to P1, Mr. Harland's statement.  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

18             Mr. Lukic, a response -- perhaps you prefer to briefly think it

19     over.

20             I see the witness is not in yet.

21             MR. LUKIC:  My problem is that I cannot find the document under

22     that number.  It's not an agreement what I can find in our e-court so --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then that seems to be a very technical

24     problem.  I take it that the Prosecution will assist you in -- or

25     whomever else will assist you to find the document and then you'll have

Page 1018

 1     an opportunity to respond at a later moment.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Kingori, I take it.  Before you

 5     give evidence, the Rules require you to make a solemn declaration, the

 6     text of which is now handed out to you by the usher.  May I invite you to

 7     make that solemn declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 9     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kingori.  Please be seated.

11             Mr. Kingori, you'll first be examined by Mr. Vanderpuye.

12     Mr. Vanderpuye is counsel for the Prosecution.

13             Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you,

15     Your Honours.  Good morning to Mr. Lukic, Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Petrusic,

16     and General Mladic.

17                           WITNESS:  JOSEPH KINGORI

18                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

19        Q.   And good morning to you, Colonel Kingori.

20        A.   Good morning, sir.

21        Q.   I know you've been here before, so I'm going to ask you or,

22     rather, remind you to try and speak a little more slowly than you would

23     otherwise so the interprets have a chance to keep up with us and

24     interpret what you say and what I say accurately to the parties.  And if

25     you have any questions about what I ask you or require any clarification,

Page 1019

 1     don't hesitate to let me know and I'll do my best to do so.

 2             Let me get started with this.  Do you recall having provided a

 3     witness statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on 8 January 2012, a

 4     so-called amalgamated statement?

 5        A.   Yes, I do remember I did that.

 6        Q.   And this amalgamated statement, was it a document that

 7     essentially consolidated your prior testimonies in the case of Krstic

 8     from 31 March and 3 April 2000; Popovic from 12 through 14 December 2007;

 9     and the Tolimir case from 14 through 16 and the 20th of September 2010?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it is.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could please have 65 ter 28117 in e-court.

12        Q.   Do you recognise this document, Mr. Kingori?

13        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

14        Q.   And can you tell the Chamber what it is?

15        A.   This is my amalgamated statement that I made during these

16     previous trials.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could go to, please, page 49 in e-court --

18     rather, the last page.

19        Q.   I would like you to take a look at that.  Do you recognise the

20     signature indicated here?

21        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.  This is my signature.

22        Q.   And is that the date, 8 January 2012, the date which you signed

23     this document?

24        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it is.

25        Q.   Colonel, have you had an opportunity to review this amalgamated

Page 1020

 1     statement before coming here today since your testimony in the Karadzic

 2     case?

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I had the honour to go through it on Sunday

 4     and Monday.

 5        Q.   Having had an opportunity to review your amalgamated statement,

 6     Colonel, does it fairly and accurately reflect what you would say were

 7     you to be examined here today and asked the same questions concerning the

 8     issues discussed in it?

 9        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  It reflects what I had said, and given the

10     same situation I would say the same things again.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, at this time I would tender the

12     amalgamated statement.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, there's one missing link.  You

14     haven't asked the witness whether he -- when he gave that statement that

15     he gave that statement in accordance with the truth.  Because if he would

16     have said the same at the time and now says the same, we still have to

17     know whether that's the truth, isn't it?

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President and I was referring -- you're

19     right.  But I can see that it's in the acknowledgement in e-court before

20     the Chamber but I'll ask the question --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you gave the statement at the time fully in

22     accordance with the truth as best as your recollection could --

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I did.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It doesn't come as a surprise, but that makes

25     the chain complete.

Page 1021

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Any objection against admission?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC:  [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28117 becomes Exhibit P34, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P34 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             Before I make -- before I tender the associated exhibits I'd like

11     to ask a few questions, but initially I'd like to read a brief summary of

12     the witness's statement, if I may.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  From March to July 1995 Colonel Kingori was

15     deployed to Srebrenica as a United Nations military observer.  His unit

16     was responsible for monitoring the VRS - ABiH cease-fire agreement and

17     reporting violations as concerned the Srebrenica enclave.  They also

18     liaised with the conflicting parties and assisted international agencies

19     operating within the enclave, such as UNPROFOR, IOM, and MSF.  Kingori's

20     main contacts with the VRS were with Major Nikolic and with

21     Colonel Vukovic.  While deployed to Srebrenica, Colonel Kingori observed

22     the shortage of food and scarcity of reliable water and electricity

23     supplies and that some of these shortages were due to VRS restrictions of

24     aid convoys.

25             Well before the July 1995 attack, Colonel Kingori noted the VRS

Page 1022

 1     presence deep inside parts of the enclave.  VRS troops prevented the

 2     UNMOs' attempts to monitor the situation towards the separation line.

 3             Kingori was one of two UNMOs present in Srebrenica during the VRS

 4     attack precipitating its fall.  He observed the heavy shelling of the

 5     enclave, which commenced on 6 July and intensifying over several days.

 6             If I need to slow down, please let me know.

 7             Kingori patrolled the town to assess the shelling damage and

 8     filed reports from the UNMO bunker in the Srebrenica PTT building.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  On 9 July, as the VRS encircled the enclave, the

11     UNMOs were forced to leave Srebrenica town to Potocari for their safety.

12     As the shelling continued in the days that followed, Srebrenica's

13     population streamed into Potocari, seeking refuge and UNPROFOR's

14     protection.  By the end of 11 July, Muslim civilians filled the DutchBat

15     compound at Potocari with others outside its perimeter.

16             On 12 July, Colonel Kingori estimated approximately 30.000

17     refugees in Potocari.  As VRS soldiers arrived and took up positions,

18     Kingori went out to investigate.  He encountered General Mladic near the

19     compound with whom he briefly conversed.  Mladic said that the VRS would

20     provide buses for the evacuation of the refugees.  Almost immediately

21     thereafter buses arrived and VRS soldiers began making women and children

22     board them.  In the presence of senior VRS officers Kingori saw men and

23     boys ages 14, 15, and 16 years old separated from their families and

24     taken to the white house nearby.

25             Colonel Kingori later approached Mladic with concerns about the

Page 1023

 1     poor conditions of their detention.  Mladic disagreed and eventually

 2     accompanied Kingori to the white house.  Nevertheless, he refused

 3     Kingori's request to enter.  The men and boys were later removed from the

 4     white house without their belongings, including their identifications,

 5     and put on separate buses from those transporting the women and children.

 6     Although Colonel Kingori successfully prevented some younger boys from

 7     being placed on those buses, the VRS soldiers invariably forced more back

 8     on.  His efforts to record the names of men to be transported by having

 9     them call out their names similarly proved difficult.

10             On 13 July, the VRS continued to remove refugees from Potocari.

11     Colonel Kingori accompanied MSF staff to evacuate patients from

12     Srebrenica hospital to Potocari.  Although some expressed their desire to

13     remain at the hospital, VRS soldiers warned Kingori that if the patients

14     were not removed they would be killed.

15             By 14 July, only the wounded and staff remained.  UNMOs helped

16     MSF prepare a list of wounded, local staff, and interpreters to try to

17     ensure their safe evacuation.  This was negotiated during a meeting

18     involving the UNMOs, DutchBat, MSF, ICRC, and the VRS, represented by

19     Colonel Djurdjic, whom Kingori described as a senior officer with whom he

20     met on other occasions.  Professor Koljevic was also contacted concerning

21     the matter.

22             A few days later Colonel Kingori left Srebrenica with his unit

23     together with DutchBat.

24             That concludes my summary, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Please proceed.

Page 1024

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have a number of

 2     questions for Mr. Kingori, as you might anticipate.  However, I do not

 3     intend to lead evidence to any degree of particularity that have been

 4     covered extensively by the adjudicated facts, in particular regarding the

 5     take-over which are facts numbered 1363 through 1388.  There are a number

 6     of facts that overlap, obviously, that are relative to the narrative,

 7     particularly as concerns the accused's acts and conduct.  In addition,

 8     there are facts I will not lead concerning the condition of the crowd at

 9     Potocari, although there is video footage I will cover with the witness.

10     Similarly, there are certain facts concerning the separations that

11     occurred, the organisation of the buses to remove the children, and some

12     events concerning their removal and the incident charged at Schedule E

13     14.2 at Potocari.  I won't cover all of his evidence regarding that, but

14     again some issues will -- are necessary relative to the narrative.

15        Q.   Mr. Kingori -- I'm sorry, Colonel Kingori, can you tell us since

16     your last testimony before the Tribunal in January what you've been

17     engaged in professionally.

18        A.   Your Honour, after my testimony here in January, I was engaged by

19     the UN OCHA Somalia as an expert on civil military co-ordination on the

20     war that is going on in Somalia.  So I'm a consultant for them at the

21     moment.

22        Q.   And could you just tell us in the briefest of terms what you do

23     in that capacity?

24        A.   Your Honour, I do co-ordinate issues to do with the Kenya defence

25     forces, the AMISOM or the African Mission in Somalia, and also the

Page 1025

 1     humanitarian activities that are going on in Somalia though they are

 2     based in Nairobi.  And also, I do train the officers who are going to be

 3     deployed -- the Kenyan officers who are going to be deployed in Somalia

 4     and also the humanitarian actors who are going to do their work in

 5     Somalia.

 6        Q.   I'd like to focus for a moment on your training prior to your

 7     deployment in Srebrenica, and specifically can you tell us first did you

 8     receive any training prior to your deployment as a UN military observer?

 9        A.   Your Honour, before we got deployed to former Yugoslavia we got

10     some training in Kenya on the historical background of the war, the

11     geographical location, and the kind of weapons that we are bound to

12     encounter when we get there and our roles as UN military observers.  In

13     addition, when we went to the mission area, we were briefed in Zagreb and

14     did also a bit of training on the same things.  And now, more

15     specifically, with the weapons systems, the historical background of the

16     war, when it started, the reasons why it started, and where the UN would

17     like to take the country to, that is, to the end of the war and so that

18     people can be able to live again in harmony.

19        Q.   Did you receive any training with respect to technical aspects of

20     your work as a UN military observer?

21        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  We did some specific training.  Part of it was

22     on first aid.  The other part was on the way to do greater analysis in

23     case of any analysing that may come up in the course of our duty,

24     identification of weapons and their ranges -- the effective ranges and

25     the type, how they look like, and especially that the weapons systems

Page 1026

 1     were deployed there were different from the ones we were used to.

 2        Q.   Were you provided with any materials in order to facilitate your

 3     work in this technical aspect?

 4        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  We were provided with some technical materials

 5     like calipers, measuring equipment, and also books to help us to refer to

 6     in case we encountered a certain weapon that we did not know the

 7     technical details of.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  I'd like to ask you a couple questions, if I

 9     may, about the reporting that you did while you were deployed.  Was there

10     a protocol in place governing the types of reports, the number of

11     reports, or frequency of reports concerning your unit?

12        A.   Yes, Your Honour, there was.  We were to prepare reports at the

13     end of every day which we used to call situation reports, or sitreps in

14     short, and they were prepared by 1800 hours to cover the last 24 hours.

15     But on regular intervals, if anything happened in between we could update

16     and call the situation report as update of the situation report.

17        Q.   In terms of the content of these situation reports, was there

18     anything specifically required to be included in them?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honour, there was several issues that we had to

20     include.  That one of them being the time we are reporting, that is, the

21     date/time group; from where that report is coming from; and also to whom

22     that we are sending the report.

23        Q.   Was there a requirement that the information contained in the

24     report -- or rather, the reported information be noted down close in time

25     to the events that are the subject of the report?

Page 1027

 1        A.   Your Honour, I don't get the question clearly.  If you can

 2     repeat?

 3        Q.   How close in time to the events that are reported in any given

 4     report were they?  In other words, from the time of an event happening to

 5     the time that the report is made of it, how much time elapsed on a -- in

 6     a general sense, in a regular context?

 7        A.   Your Honour, we had to make reports as soon as possible and at

 8     least not later than 24 hours otherwise it would be stale.  So we had to

 9     give the reports as the events occurred, and as I said if it is after the

10     1800 hours, we had to give it as an update of the sitrep.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, have you checked whether there's any

12     dispute about what you're now eliciting as evidence, that's the structure

13     of reporting on a daily basis, et cetera?  Have you checked whether

14     the --

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  [Overlapping speakers] with the Defence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- with the Defence whether it's in dispute.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I haven't checked with the Defence whether it's

18     in dispute.  I understand, however, that the Defence doesn't have an

19     objection to the associated exhibits.  So to that extent, I am eliciting

20     this information because I think it is relevant to and important to the

21     admissibility of the associated exhibits.  But to the extent the Defence

22     doesn't object, and if the Chamber doesn't feel it's necessary, I won't

23     persist.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if there's no dispute about the structure of

25     the reporting - and I'm looking at the Defence -I'm not talking about the

Page 1028

 1     content of the reports, that's, of course, a totally different matter,

 2     then I wonder whether -- and, by the way, I take it that we'll see all

 3     these reports appearing twice a day or, et cetera, so it's more or less

 4     self-explanatory.  If there's no dispute about it, then I would tell us

 5     about what there's no dispute and then we could move on.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, the way in which

 8     reports were being sent is not something that is in dispute as far as the

 9     Defence is concerned.  It is the content that is in dispute, and I assume

10     that both the Prosecutor and I will be dealing with that through our

11     questions that will follow.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then I take it there must be one way or another

13     to put on the record that these matters, that's the structure of the

14     reporting and apparently the scenarios developed for the reporting are

15     not in dispute and what they were, that's twice a day, et cetera, instead

16     of spending a lot of time on it in court.  This is also an observation I

17     make for future witnesses but of course also in relation to this witness.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  There is just one

20     other matter in light of what my colleague has expressed.  To the extent

21     that the content of the report is in dispute, that is, I assume the

22     reliability of the information contained in the report, I do think it is

23     necessary in that circumstance, then, to lead the evidence indicating why

24     the reports are reliable or otherwise accurate and that's the reason why

25     I'm asking these questions.

Page 1029

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I already clearly indicated that I make a

 2     distinction between the structure of the reporting system and the content

 3     of the report.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Colonel, with respect to the content of the report, as we've been

 6     discussing, can you tell us whether it was necessary for the reports to

 7     be accurate or reliable in any given circumstance, or how important was

 8     that?

 9        A.   Your Honour, the reports that we were giving had to be as

10     accurate as possible, given the fact that the military observers were the

11     eyes and ears of the UN on the ground and the information we were giving

12     could be used by the other or the higher systems in the UN to take any

13     action.

14        Q.   With respect to the information that was contained in the

15     reports, was this limited to information that was directly observed by

16     military observers or did it contain other information from other

17     sources?

18        A.   Your Honour, the information that we were giving contained what

19     we observed as military observers and also what we went through during

20     the meetings that we were holding with the warring factions and also any

21     other information that we could get from outside.  But I hasten to add

22     that information that we were not confirming ourselves, we had to

23     indicate that it was not confirmed by UNMOs and therefore write NCBU.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, is there anything which I have not

25     read yet in paragraph 12 of the statement you asked about?  There's no

Page 1030

 1     need to repeat what is already in the statement.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  In paragraph 12 in particular, Your Honour?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  NCBU is, I think, the last part of that

 4     accuracy of the reports.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, that's correct.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It's all there.  Would you please focus on matters

 7     which you have not yet found or which really need clarification.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us what sources of information you relied on in

10     particular in the reporting process.

11        A.   Your Honour, the sources of information, as I've indicated, was

12     what we could see ourselves, what we could discuss with either faction,

13     and also what we could be told by anybody within the enclave or from the

14     UN system that they may have wanted us to clarify on ground.  Those are

15     the main sources.

16        Q.   When you say sources from the UN system, did you rely on

17     information from DutchBat?

18        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  It involved the DutchBat, UNHCR, the UNMO

19     headquarters, any other source that is concerned with the UN or UN

20     humanitarian actors on the ground.

21        Q.   Would that include MSF?

22        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

23        Q.   And would it include sources from the -- from within the enclave,

24     civilian Muslim sources?

25        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it did.

Page 1031

 1        Q.   And all of these, were they specifically indicated in the

 2     reports?

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it was.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I interrupt.  I just ask a question.

 6             Mr. Kingori, did your sources, so far as civilians were

 7     concerned, only concern Muslims or other ethnic groups as well?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, it's good to clarify that.  We were

 9     living in the enclave where the Muslims were living.  So mainly the

10     source from there would be from the Muslims, but in case we went out to

11     meet senior people like Major Nikolic who were Serbs, we could get

12     information from them and still use it.  But the predominant people in

13     the enclave were Muslims.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said "predominant," so you did also consult

15     Serb civilians to a lesser degree?  Is that -- should I understand

16     predominant to mean that?

17             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour.  The other group that was there

18     was mainly the military element of the Serbs.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would at this time tender the

21     associated exhibits.  They're indicated in the exhibit list that we

22     provided earlier.  There is -- there are two documents that I have

23     mislabelled inadvertently to add to those documents as associated, and

24     those are 65 ters 4469 and 4471, refer to paragraphs 210 and 215 in the

25     statement respectively.

Page 1032

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, would you like to respond now

 2     or ...?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Later at any rate, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will deal with the associated exhibits soon

 5     afterwards.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Colonel, in your statement you say at paragraph 9 -- we could go

 9     to e-court, it's P34, although there may not be any need for it, it's

10     P34, page 3 in the English, page 4 in the B/C/S.  And I'll just read the

11     section to you because I think it may be quicker.  You state at paragraph

12     9:

13             "At times they could tell us," referring to DutchBat, "if there

14     was anything they want us to go and investigate, they could ask us to go

15     and investigate a specific case, but not general."

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Are we at page 3 in the English?

17        Q.   Do you see that in the last sentence of the paragraph, Colonel,

18     what I've just read to you?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I can see it.

20        Q.   And can you tell us what you meant, first of all, by a specific

21     case and not by a general case or not in general?

22        A.   What I meant here is that the DutchBat -- I mean, we could use

23     information from anywhere and DutchBat could also tell us in some

24     instances that there were some specific cases they would like us to go

25     and investigate, like maybe there was shelling in such and such a place

Page 1033

 1     and they would tell us to go and investigate.  Also, they could give us

 2     information on the intrusion of the BSA inside the enclave, and they

 3     would request us to go and talk to the BSA leadership, that is,

 4     Major Nikolic and others; or just go there and investigate ourselves so

 5     that we can confirm.

 6        Q.   What types of things are we talking about in terms of the

 7     investigation?

 8        A.   Here we are talking about military incursions.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10        A.   Also the penetration of the BSA inside the enclave, mainly those

11     were the issues, and also artillery shelling.

12        Q.   Did you co-operate with other UN agencies operating in the area

13     in a similar way or NGOs and so forth?

14        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  We were taking everything seriously.  Whatever

15     information we could get from any organisation or individuals, we were

16     taking seriously and going ahead and investigate.

17        Q.   At paragraph 39 of your statement - and that's going to be at

18     pages 9 in the English and pages 12 through 13 in the B/C/S - you say

19     that you had certain information about planned UNHCR food deliveries, in

20     part because of your responsibility to provide security for them during

21     transit.

22             I wondered, first of all, the type of information that you had,

23     what was the source of the information concerning UNHCR food deliveries?

24        A.   Your Honour, there was a UNHCR presence in the enclave; they had

25     offices there and their warehouses.  And they used to talk to us, and in

Page 1034

 1     particular when they were going to -- they had plans to bring in food or

 2     other associated items, they would talk to us, request that we talk to

 3     the BSA so that they can allow the food in, and also at least know what

 4     they were doing for the people of the enclave because that was part of

 5     our mandate, to check the humanitarian and food situation in the enclave.

 6        Q.   Let me focus just a little bit about the -- on the humanitarian

 7     situation in the enclave.  In your statement at paragraph 63, that's

 8     English page 15, B/C/S page 21, you refer to the occurrence of shelling

 9     in Srebrenica as a norm.  And what I'd like to know - I think we can see

10     it there in the middle of the paragraph - what I'd like to know in

11     particular is:  What did you mean by that?

12        A.   Your Honour, what I meant was that shelling in Srebrenica was

13     normal to a certain extent.  Also small arms fire, machine-gun fire, that

14     was normal.  It was nothing serious.  I mean, to us we knew it could

15     happen any time and we were used to it; everybody was used to it.  But

16     this particular one was a bit too heavy.

17        Q.   This particular one you're referring to, the attack on 6th July,

18     1995; is that right?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I'm referring to that one.

20        Q.   And the shelling that you refer to as the norm in Srebrenica, is

21     that during the period throughout the period of your tenure there?

22        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  During my stay there, the shelling or the

23     small arms fire was normal.

24        Q.   Originating from where, if you can recall?

25        A.   Your Honour, shelling was mainly incoming, meaning it was coming

Page 1035

 1     from the BSA side into the enclave.

 2        Q.   Now, at paragraph 57 of your amalgamated statement, that's

 3     English page 14, B/C/S page 19, you indicate there that there were a lot

 4     of complaints about shelling or attacks into the enclave.  How frequently

 5     would you say that these sorts of complaints were brought to your

 6     attention?

 7        A.   Which paragraph did you say, Your Honour?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  57.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  57.

10        Q.   And you'll see it in the second sentence.  It says:

11             "In fact, we could not stay for long without some complaints

12     coming from the Muslim concerning an attack somewhere."

13        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  What I meant here is that there were always

14     complaints coming from the Muslims that a certain area had been shelled,

15     a certain area, there were some people had been injured, or that they

16     suspect the BSA are trying to penetrate from a certain area, they have

17     taken a certain OP and there is an incursion there.  All those complaints

18     used to come to us.

19        Q.   Did you receive information as to what kinds of areas or places

20     were targeted by the shelling during this period of time or in this

21     context?

22        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  There were some areas which had high

23     concentration of shelling, and especially from the southern side and also

24     towards the Bandera Triangle.  And we could even identify where the

25     shelling was actually originating from.

Page 1036

 1        Q.   And what were you able to conclude based upon your ability to

 2     identify the origin of the shelling?

 3        A.   Your Honour, the only thing we could do at that particular time

 4     was to report to the UN system - that is the higher echelon - on what was

 5     happening, that is, on the -- on where the source could be after doing

 6     the crater analysis and also analysing the situation on ground to give

 7     them the appropriate areas, that is, in grid reference form or grid

 8     square, depending on the area so that they can be able to do whatever

 9     they wanted, that is, in case they wanted to do an air attack or

10     something like that.

11        Q.   At paragraph 35 of your statement you indicate that there was

12     never enough food in Srebrenica, and that's English page 8, B/C/S page

13     11.  First of all --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye --

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- did you consider the answer given by the witness

17     an answer to the question:  What were you able to conclude based upon

18     your ability?  Do you consider it an answer?

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I do consider it an answer, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I thought the question - but perhaps I misunderstood

21     your question - that you'd like to know what conclusions the witness drew

22     from what they found on the ground.  Of course to say:  Well, the shell

23     fell here or there.  But I think it is mainly about the origin of the

24     shells.  And he said:  Well, we reported what we knew about the origin.

25     I understood your question to be what did you find about the origin of

Page 1037

 1     the shelling.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would be happy to clarify that.  I think --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  If you didn't intend to ask it then -- but

 4     that's how I understood the question.  But if you're satisfied with the

 5     answer, then please proceed as you wish.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Or maybe so I can clarify a bit --

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             THE WITNESS:  -- of the same?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if Mr. Vanderpuye is inviting you to do so.

10     Please.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Indeed I am.  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  What I meant is that we were

13     able to conclude that the shelling was coming from the BSA side, that is

14     what I meant; and the particular grid area, the grid reference or the

15     grid square from where it could have been coming from.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   I think I may have been in the process of referring you to

19     paragraph 35 of your statement, where you indicate that there was never

20     enough food in Srebrenica.  First, can you tell us what you meant by

21     that?

22        A.   Your Honour, during my stay in Srebrenica, we could see that the

23     people were never with enough food.  They were mainly dependent on UNHCR

24     supplies, but of course we know there were other sources of supply of

25     food through the unofficial routes to Zepa and back.  But mainly the

Page 1038

 1     inhabitants of the enclave were dependent on UNHCR food.  This food was

 2     brought in on a schedule -- as scheduled and sometimes there were delays

 3     due to various reasons.  So when those delays were there, obviously we

 4     could see the people are going hungry, and we know for sure they were

 5     unable to grow their own food that was enough to feed the enclave.  That

 6     is what I meant.

 7        Q.   Were you apprised of the -- now, you've indicated that these --

 8     the food was brought in on scheduled -- scheduled convoys, as it were.

 9     And were you apprised of the movement of these convoys, specifically?

10        A.   Your Honour, we were all informed about the schedule.  First of

11     all, to make sure that we seek clearance for the convoy to bring in the

12     food, that is, from the BSA side; and also so that we can prepare the

13     people to receive the food; and also for our reports because we had to

14     indicate the availability of food for the people of the enclave in our

15     reports.  So that was the main reason.

16        Q.   Now, I'd like to focus, if I could, on what you experienced --

17     your unit experienced, rather, with respect to the rotation of personnel,

18     equipment, and supplies.  Could you tell us very briefly about that.  At

19     paragraph 8 in your statement you say that:

20             "Somewhere after April the BSA started denying the UNMOs

21     permission to leave the enclave.  Later on they allowed them to go out

22     and upon their exit they said they cannot come back to replace them."

23             That's paragraph 8, English page 3, B/C/S page 4.  Now, with

24     respect to the rotation of troops and the inability to replenish or

25     replace personnel, were you provided with an explanation as to why

Page 1039

 1     troops, or rather, members of your unit going out couldn't come back?

 2        A.   Your Honour, for any of our troops, and especially UNMOs, to

 3     leave the enclave or even to come in, permission had to be sought from

 4     the BSA so that they give written consent or approval that they allow

 5     this person or these persons to come in or to get out.  And it was a

 6     tedious process because we had to apply, takes about one week, one month,

 7     sometimes they declined completely.  And in this particular case there

 8     are some people who were to go on leave and they were denied permission

 9     to go.  Let alone that leave was accumulated and it reached a situation

10     where they were going and get replaced.  They were still denied

11     replacement, so when the three went there were no replacements.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kingori, sorry to interrupt you.  The question

13     was whether any reasons were given.  You described the rotation and the

14     denial of the people to come back.  But the question was the reasons

15     given to you not allowing new people to come in.  Were any reasons given?

16             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, there are times they could give

17     reasons like -- and that is what I was getting to - there were times they

18     could not give any reason at all.  Some of the reasons they were giving,

19     and especially when we want -- we had been told to remain in the enclave,

20     they said they cannot trust those who are coming in because they don't

21     know them.  In other circumstances they could not give any reason at all.

22     They just said, No, we cannot allow you to come in or go out.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:

25        Q.   Were there any restrictions on the supplies that you had, that

Page 1040

 1     is, your unit had, placed -- imposed, rather, by the VRS?

 2        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  Our supplies were coming mainly through the

 3     DutchBat, and there are times they could get restrictions on resupply.

 4     And so we also get some problems -- we were getting some problems when

 5     there were restrictions on the resupply of DutchBat.

 6        Q.   What kind of supplies are you referring to?  Is this equipment?

 7     Is this food?

 8        A.   Your Honour, it was mainly food and diesel.

 9        Q.   What was the impact on your ability to carry out your work, given

10     those restrictions?

11        A.   Your Honour, especially on the supply of diesel, it was a major

12     predicament in that without diesel we could not be able to patrol the

13     enclave, we could also not be able to run the generators to use -- to

14     enable us to use the computers to send and receive reports and so it was

15     a major headache.  But on the side of food, obviously, without food we

16     could not be able to work well.

17        Q.   Did you bring this to the attention of the VRS personnel that you

18     were dealing with throughout your tenure in the enclave?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honour, we did, and especially through Major Nikolic.

20        Q.   Were you provided with any explanation with respect to the

21     restrictions imposed on your supplies?

22        A.   Your Honour, he was always telling us that he's going to check

23     with the higher commanders of the BSA and then inform us of the outcome,

24     but most of the time it was never forthcoming.

25        Q.   Did you consider the restrictions that were imposed on your

Page 1041

 1     supplies or the rotation of your personnel in your unit justified?

 2        A.   Your Honour, those restrictions were not justified because we

 3     were there to work for the people inside the enclave.  We were employed

 4     by the UN system and therefore there is -- could be no reason for them to

 5     restrict us at all.

 6        Q.   I just want to refer you to the attack - and I'm just going to

 7     ask a few questions about that if I may.  In paragraph 67 of your

 8     statement, that's English page 16, B/C/S pages 21 through 22, you

 9     indicate that the shelling of Srebrenica, and this is during the course

10     of the attack itself, followed a pattern.  First, can you tell the

11     Chamber what you meant by that, by this pattern as you describe it?

12        A.   Your Honour, the pattern that I'm referring to here was that we

13     found after the BSA fired about a few shells, that is, around 20, 30, 50,

14     or whatever over a given period of time, they could stop and wait for

15     another 20, 30 minutes or so before the next shelling.  So that's the

16     period I'm referring to here.

17        Q.   Did the shelling that occurred throughout the attack at

18     Srebrenica, beginning on the 6th of July as indicated in your statement,

19     follow a pattern or system with respect to the areas that were being

20     shelled?

21        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Could you explain that, Colonel, please.

23        A.   The shelling, and especially in Srebrenica town itself, it was

24     following a certain pattern in that they could shell, then stop, then

25     shell again.  And what we felt and what we suspected was that maybe they

Page 1042

 1     were waiting for people after shelling to come out and pick the injured

 2     and the dead, and then when they are inside there where they had aimed

 3     earlier, they can still shell again the same place and kill more people,

 4     and it is -- it was in our reports and that is what I indicated.

 5        Q.   In terms of the areas targeted, at paragraph 73 of your statement

 6     you say --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the Chamber wondered for the last questions what

10     you elicited as evidence which we had not yet read in paragraphs 66 and

11     67.  We read the statement.  There's no need to elicit again the same

12     evidence, and I -- really, I did not hear one word which was new after I

13     had read paragraphs 66 and 67.  Would you please keep this in mind.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'll do my best.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But you are now at paragraph 73 I think.  Let's move

16     on.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I was actually trying to

18     elicit evidence concerning the pattern of shelling separately than the

19     timing of the shelling itself, just for your information so that you

20     don't get the impression that I'm trying to elicit the exact same

21     evidence that's in the statement.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then put your questions in such a clear way that we

23     do not finally receive the same evidence as we have read before.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'll do my best.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And emphasize that it's about areas and not

Page 1043

 1     about timing that you are asking questions.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 3        Q.   Colonel, I refer you to paragraph 73 of your statement, that's

 4     English page 17, I believe, B/C/S page 23, where you say:

 5             "The way the shelling was done was definitely aimed at the

 6     residents of that place."

 7             And what I'd like to know is how you draw that particular

 8     conclusion.

 9        A.   I'm looking for the sentence, Your Honour.  Para 73.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The very first sentence, Mr. Kingori.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I can find it.

12             What I meant here is that the targeting of the enclave, and

13     especially the areas where you would expect more people, like the market,

14     and also some other socio areas, that is what I meant when I said that it

15     was definitely aimed at the residents of that place.  They were also

16     targeting the residential areas, the market and all those areas, so I

17     believed - and we had reason to believe - that they were targeting the

18     civilians of that place.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:

20        Q.   Were those areas, to your knowledge, militarised in any way?

21        A.   No, Your Honour.

22        Q.   How do you know that?

23        A.   Your Honour, we were living in that enclave.  We had reason to

24     believe that there were no military targets because there were no

25     barracks inside there that we could see, there were no major equipments

Page 1044

 1     put anywhere, and there were no military people that we could see in

 2     that -- in those particular targeted areas.

 3        Q.   I'd like to focus, if I could now, on the 12th and 13th of July.

 4     Beginning on the 12th, did you -- first of all, do you remember that day

 5     in particular and where you were?

 6        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I remember I was in -- we were in Potocari at

 7     that time.

 8        Q.   Did you meet General Mladic on that day?

 9        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  It -- I was very pleased to meet

10     General Mladic, the very senior person in charge of the BSA.

11        Q.   Where did you meet him, if you can recall?

12        A.   Your Honour, it was in Potocari outside the DutchBat, near where

13     the bulk of the IDPs were placed.

14        Q.   Just for the record, could you clarify what you mean by "IDPs"?

15        A.   That is the internally displaced persons who had come all the way

16     from other villages in the enclave to Potocari.  And just to clarify that

17     some of them stayed inside DutchBat and others stayed outside in the

18     open.  And where the General was, General Mladic was actually in the

19     outside area.

20        Q.   All right.  And you had an opportunity to speak to General Mladic

21     in that context?

22        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I was pleased to talk to him, but initially

23     when he recognised my patch, reading "Kenya," we started some informal

24     discussion about where I come from, athletics and all those things,

25     before I started informing him through interpreters about other

Page 1045

 1     situation.

 2        Q.   I'd like to show you a little bit of video footage, if I may.

 3     It's 65 ter 26123.  And we're going to start with V0009035, and we should

 4     start at 17.57.4 and hopefully play it through 19.03.  I'd like you to

 5     just take a look at this.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  We've stopped at 19.04.09.

 8        Q.   First, Colonel, do you recognise the area that's shown in this

 9     video footage?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do recognise it.

11        Q.   And what do you recognise it at?

12        A.   This was the area outside DutchBat, slightly towards Srebrenica

13     town.  As you leave from Potocari on the -- the first part was on the

14     left side as you go up, and currently what is being shown here is -- was

15     on the right as you go towards Srebrenica.

16        Q.   And is this the area approximately in which you met

17     General Mladic on the 12th of July, 1995?

18        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  This is the general area that I met him.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Could we just play from 20.41 through

20     20.1 [sic].  Okay.  We can go ahead and play this.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  For the record, we've stopped at 21.10 --

23     sorry, .6.  And I misspoke on the record, I intended and indicated to

24     play from 20.41 through 21.1.  Okay.

25        Q.   Okay.  Do you recognise what's transpiring in this particular

Page 1046

 1     footage, Mr. -- Colonel Kingori?

 2        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do, and I can tell you that this -- what the

 3     BSA soldiers trying to give some food, and especially in the last one

 4     that you showed, some biscuits, some candies to the IDPs.

 5        Q.   And what happened with respect to that -- those biscuits and

 6     candies later on?

 7        A.   Your Honour, immediately the BSA gave out these candies, there

 8     would be a spell whereby the videoing would be going on; and then after

 9     that when the video is not focused on that particular area, they would go

10     back and pick the candies, something which some of us could not

11     understand why they were doing that.  Why give the kids candies and later

12     on pick them from them?  It didn't make sense to us.

13        Q.   Do you recognise the individual that was depicted in this

14     particular clip?

15        A.   Yes, I could -- I can remember him.  It's only that the name

16     right now is gone.  But he's someone I know.  I've talked about him

17     before.  But it's a long time.  I can't remember his name.

18        Q.   All right.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we go to 23.58 and play that hopefully

20     through 25.20.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  We've stopped at 24.22.3.

23        Q.   Do you recognise the people in this frame?

24        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.  There are two, I think, important people

25     here.  To the right there is General Ratko Mladic and at the far corner

Page 1047

 1     you can see a very black person there.  I think that is me.

 2        Q.   Okay.  You think or you know?

 3        A.   I am sure that is me.

 4        Q.   All right.  Let's continue playing, please, through 25.2.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, before you ask any questions, does

 7     the Prosecution intend to rely on the text as we -- it's -- which is

 8     apparently spoken and translated into English on the screen?  If that is

 9     the case, if you would not -- us to ignore it, then it should be on the

10     transcript, and it should be on the transcript in French as well, and you

11     should have provided transcripts of this video to the booth so that they

12     could have followed and translated what was said.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  [Microphone not activated] Sorry, Mr. President.

14     I believe that we do have transcripts of this trial video.  I'm not sure

15     if it's of all the words that are spoken or just the subtitles, which I

16     will check.  And my understanding is that we have given -- first of all,

17     we have obviously disclosed this to the accused.  I don't believe that we

18     provided that, however, to the booths to the extent that the subtitles

19     are clear on the video.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which means that we have an incomplete record

21     of what was said here, especially, for example, that there is no French,

22     and at least on the transcript we cannot read what was said on this video

23     and that may be relevant, so therefore we'll have to find a solution for

24     that.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 1048

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome most likely will be able to inform you

 2     about how I have instructed the Prosecution in previous cases.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll discuss that

 4     with Mr. Groome at my earliest opportunity.  I wasn't aware that there

 5     was a particular protocol with respect to the -- with respect to --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  -- presenting this evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Inform yourself through Mr. Groome and then let's

 9     see whether we can agree on that.  That might be relevant for the Defence

10     at a certain stage as well.  Please proceed.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  We'll have

12     to play this through 25.2 -- I'm sorry, .20.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Colonel, I just have a couple of questions regarding this clip.

16     At the beginning of the clip you can see General Mladic discussing

17     something concerning the boarding of the buses or the transport of the

18     people.  Do you recall that conversation in general?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

20        Q.   And is that reflected in your statement concerning General Mladic

21     talking about the buses and the transport of the individuals at Potocari?

22        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  It is in my statement is so explained.

23        Q.   Is that about the time or close in time to the conversations that

24     you had with General Mladic concerning your having been from Kenya or

25     from the Kenyan armed forces?

Page 1049

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  It was after that and that's the time I

 2     explained to him that the UN was preparing transport, and he said no he

 3     has his own transport.

 4        Q.   Now, with respect to the latter part of the clip in which

 5     General Mladic is talking to members of the crowd and assuring them that

 6     they will be safe and that no one will harm them, were you there during

 7     the course of this particular transaction that we see now in the

 8     monitors?

 9        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I was close by.  I was just there.

10        Q.   And what was your assessment of the situation concerning this

11     group of civilians that were gathered there to be transported out?  Did

12     it -- was it consistent with what General Mladic was saying or not?

13        A.   Your Honour, General Mladic was just doing the right thing at

14     that particular moment, trying to cool the tempers of the people, trying

15     to show them that nothing bad will happen to them, that they should have

16     some hope, to pre-empt maybe a scenario whereby they would protest or

17     demonstrate or do something that would be bad.  So I think he was doing

18     the right thing to cool them down and also tell them that they will be

19     safe on their way out, which actually is an assurance that he was not

20     obliged to obey.

21        Q.   Did that agree with your assessment of what was happening at the

22     time?

23        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it does.

24        Q.   Now, in your statement you say at paragraph 30 to 31, in English

25     pages 7 through 8; in B/C/S pages 10, you talk about a meeting that you

Page 1050

 1     had with Colonel Vukovic and Major Nikolic in June 1995.  You say in your

 2     statement one of the things that was expressed to you at the meeting was:

 3             "Go and tell the Muslims to pack up and leave Srebrenica.  We do

 4     not want them there."

 5             At paragraph 29, and that's English page 7 and B/C/S page 10, you

 6     understood, or rather, you referred to the Muslims there, and your

 7     understanding was that that referred to the military and the civilian

 8     component.  What I'd like to know is:  In light of what you observed

 9     happening here on the 12th of July, whether that was consistent with your

10     meeting with Major Nikolic and Colonel Vukovic back in June?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  It was very consistent in that the way

12     Colonel Vukovic and Major Nikolic had told us, that they would like all

13     the Muslim elements to leave Srebrenica enclave, is actually what now

14     General Ratko Mladic was telling them, that you'd be ferried out of the

15     enclave to a different place.  So it was very consistent with our earlier

16     assessment and also our earlier meeting with Colonel Vukovic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I would like to seek a clarification

18     of one answer the witness gave a minute ago.

19             You said, Mr. Kingori, after you gave your assessment of what

20     Mr. Mladic did, you said he was doing the right thing to cool them down

21     and also to tell them that they will be safe on their way out, which

22     actually is an assurance that he was not obliged to obey.  The last --

23     the very last part of this sentence I do not fully understand.  Could you

24     explain how this is an assurance that he - and I take it that is

25     Mr. Mladic - was not obliged to obey, to obey to whom?  To obey in what

Page 1051

 1     respect?  It's not clear to me.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, what I mean here is that this is --

 3     this could just be -- have just been mere propaganda, just telling them:

 4     You'll be safe, but he doesn't have to ensure that they're safe after

 5     that.  It is not his -- he is not obliged to do that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that's at least -- that is an option you

 7     consider to be possible, that he said this but did not mean it -- to do

 8     it; is that correct?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  He didn't have to mean it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

11             Please proceed -- I'm also looking at the clock, Mr. Vanderpuye.

12     We're close to the time where we take a break.  But could you tell us

13     whether you're on track as far as time is concerned.  I think you asked

14     for 90 minutes.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think I got about an hour in, Mr. President,

16     and I think I -- with any luck, I'll be done in about 15, 20 minutes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  15, 20 minutes.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please find a suitable moment.  I don't know

20     whether that's now or whether that's in a couple of minutes.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's just about now, but I do have one

22     clarifying question.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:

25        Q.   Based on Mr. President's question to you, Colonel, seeing that

Page 1052

 1     you were there when General Mladic was speaking to the crowd, did you get

 2     the sense at the time that what he was saying and doing he meant?

 3        A.   Your Honour, in some of these utterances, some of these speeches,

 4     part of them -- those of us who have been in the military, those who have

 5     been in the political world, know that some of them are just political

 6     statements.  You just want to please people at that particular moment but

 7     you don't necessarily have to mean it or follow it through.  So according

 8     to our own assessment, he just wanted that particular situation to pass

 9     and that's it.  And we were aware of that and we were following it all

10     the way up to the end -- or knowing that most likely he did not mean

11     whatever he was saying.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, this is a good time for the

14     break.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and resume at 11.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Vanderpuye, I learned, but

20     only a minute ago, that the text and video issue I raised earlier has

21     been discussed and we'll consider how to resolve that and that's relevant

22     for the Defence as well.

23             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

24             Mr. Lukic, perhaps before the next break you'll be in a position

25     to respond to P18 or would you like to -- or are you not ready yet?

Page 1053

 1             MR. LUKIC:  One second, Your Honour.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If not --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, we checked, Your Honour.  We don't have any

 5     objections --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  -- to have the exhibit introduced into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then P18 is admitted into evidence.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you said you'd need another 15 to 20

11     minutes.  The Chamber grants that.  Please proceed.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

13        Q.   We'll proceed with the video footage from 65 ter 26123.  It is

14     ERN V0009016.  I'd just like to play it from 02.44.4, as we have on the

15     record, through to 03.51 for the witness.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  We've stopped at 03.51.7.

18        Q.   Colonel, have you -- are you familiar with this particular area

19     that's depicted in this footage, that is, the road?

20        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I am.  This is the area in Potocari outside

21     DutchBat where the civilians, that is the IDPs, were being led to board

22     the buses.

23        Q.   And were you in this area on the 13th of July as well as on the

24     12th of July?

25        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I was.

Page 1054

 1        Q.   I'd like to show you -- or rather, you reference in your

 2     statement that there were some separations that occurred.  Where in

 3     relation to the road depicted here did that occur?

 4        A.   Your Honour, there were two separations on record.  One of them

 5     was when the men were being moved from the women and children, that was

 6     the first separation, and being put in a white house and is recorded.

 7     The second separation was for the boys who were around 12, 13, 14, up to

 8     16 years who were moving with this group of women and children, and they

 9     were being separated and being taken still to the white house.  So there

10     are two separations.  It was in this area.

11        Q.   Both?

12        A.   The first one was where they were -- the IDPs were herded

13     together, where they were put together, the space outside.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   But this other separation was when they were going to board the

16     buses.

17        Q.   And that would have been along this very road?

18        A.   Yes, Your Honour, along this road.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could show, please, the footage starting

20     at 7.26 and play that through 08.32.  All right.  We can go ahead and

21     play that, please.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  We've stopped at 08.33.4.

24        Q.   You can see yourself -- I assume you can see yourself in this

25     video-clip; is that right?

Page 1055

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

 2        Q.   And a discussion that is occurring regarding the availability of

 3     water?

 4        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  That was the main issue at that particular

 5     moment.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us what that discussion was about to the extent that

 7     you can recall?

 8        A.   Your Honour, we had a problem of water for the IDPs in that the

 9     water available from DutchBat was not enough, and we were even requesting

10     for additional water from the BSA which they promised to bring and they

11     later on brought.

12        Q.   Was that water distributed to the refugees at the -- around the

13     compound?

14        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it was.

15        Q.   And were you involved in the distribution of that water?

16        A.   Definitely, sir.  I was involved.

17        Q.   All right.  Do you recognise any of the individuals that were

18     depicted in this particular frame, do you recall their names?

19        A.   Some of them I can't now.

20        Q.   All right.  If we can play from 8.37 to 8.55.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  We've stopped at 08.55.5.

23        Q.   Here -- first of all, do you recall this particular event and

24     what you're discussing here?

25        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

Page 1056

 1        Q.   When you're referring to that place that's overcrowded, what are

 2     you referring to?

 3        A.   Your Honour, I was referring to the white house where all the men

 4     who had been removed from the displaced people, that is from the

 5     men [sic] and children, had been taken to.  That is where they had been

 6     put in a place where it was very uncomfortable, very small -- too small

 7     for them, and they had no -- there was no freedom, you know.  They were

 8     huddled together, they were sitting on each other, and it was not

 9     comfortable for them.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I interrupt for a moment just for a

11     clarification.

12             Mr. Kingori, you said the white house where all the men who had

13     been removed from the displaced people, that is, from the men and

14     children, perhaps did you mean that -- that the men were separated from

15     the men and children?

16             THE WITNESS:  No, from women and children.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you misspoke.  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President -- I'm sorry.  Thank

21     you, Judge Fluegge.

22        Q.   In this particular conversation when you were expressing these

23     concerns to these individuals, did you engage in any kind of follow-up

24     action after this discussion concerning the disposition of the men in the

25     white house?

Page 1057

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I followed it up with General Ratko Mladic

 2     through some BSA soldiers who could speak English, and one of them is

 3     very easily identifiable in the video that you have shown.  He's a person

 4     who could speak, you know, at least good English and is the one who was

 5     translating to General Ratko Mladic of my situation; that is, that what

 6     they are doing to the men, putting them in one small house, was not good.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just go for a moment to 06.15 of

 8     this video footage.

 9        Q.   And I just want to ask you - I'm not going to play it at this

10     point, but we are for the record at 06.15 - do you recognise the

11     individual in the blue vest?

12        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.  This is the man who could be able to

13     speak a bit of English and he is the one who was translating for me with

14     General Mladic.

15        Q.   In your statement you indicate that you at some point went to the

16     white house with General Mladic.  Do you recall that?

17        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

18        Q.   What I'd like to show you is a video clip starting at 09.23 and

19     we'll play that through 09.30.  Yeah, we can go ahead and play it.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:

22        Q.   First of all, do you recognise what we see here or what we have

23     seen in this clip?

24        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  What we see in the background there is the

25     possessions of all the men who had been taken to the white house.  They

Page 1058

 1     were being forced to leave whatever they had, the luggage together with

 2     the identification passes and all that outside before going into the

 3     white house.  So this is what you can see in the background.

 4        Q.   And this frame we can see you, I believe, and that's at 09.30.7 -

 5     is that correct? - on the left side?

 6        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I am the one who is there.

 7        Q.   I would like to play for you now 09.48 through 10.17.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:

10        Q.   Can you tell us what we see in this frame, Colonel?

11        A.   Your Honour, what we are seeing here are the belongings that were

12     for the men who had been separated from the women and children before

13     they entered the white house.

14        Q.   I'm sorry, let me just -- for the record, we've stopped at

15     10.17.7.  Where is the white house that you referred to?

16        A.   Your Honour, the white house is at the back there, that is the

17     one you can see behind there.

18        Q.   Behind the gate?

19        A.   It is -- yeah, it's somewhere behind the gate because this is the

20     entrance they were going through and then they entered the white house.

21        Q.   Is what we see here of the white house on the 13th of July, can

22     you describe what it was like at the time that you went there with

23     General Mladic?  Is the condition that we see it here relatively the same

24     or different?

25        A.   Your Honour, it was relatively the same, only that we could be

Page 1059

 1     able now to see the people inside because we weren't very close, we could

 2     be able to see them inside there, you know, where they were at the top

 3     floor.  But we could not see the ground floor.

 4        Q.   And was there another vantage point into what you could see into

 5     the house other than from the angle that we see it now in this particular

 6     frame?

 7        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  There was another view from the -- I think the

 8     right side of this gate, that is where you could be able to see it more

 9     clearly.

10        Q.   And were you at -- were you able to see from that point on that

11     occasion, that is on the 13th of July, or when you went there with

12     General Mladic?

13        A.   On both occasions we could be able to see.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  Your Honours, it's a

15     misquotation.  Mr. Vanderpuye said that on the 13th of July they left

16     with General Mladic.  That is an incorrect statement because that took

17     place on the 12th.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 44, line 25 of the

20     transcript.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  I do see that and I think it may

23     have been a translation error.  I referred to when he went there on the

24     13th or when we went there with General Mladic, so I was --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay --

Page 1060

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  [Overlapping speakers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then please rephrase your question and -- so that

 3     the witness can answer it.  Rephrase it or repeat it --

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Very well.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And then if it's a translation error, of course

 6     there is no need to rephrase it but --

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's no problem.

 8        Q.   Colonel, when you went there with General Mladic on the 12th of

 9     July, was the house and its surroundings in relatively the same condition

10     as it was when you were there on the 13th of July?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it was in relatively the same condition.

12        Q.   I'd like to show you a video-clip from the same video starting at

13     10.22 and play that through 10.56, please.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We've stopped just now at 10.47.2.

16        Q.   And I wanted to ask you particularly about this frame.  You can

17     see some men on a balcony at the white house.  Were you able to see this,

18     as we see it now in the footage, at the time that you were there on the

19     13th of July?

20        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I was able to see all this.

21        Q.   And were the men similarly on the balcony when you went there on

22     the 12th of July with General Mladic?

23        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  They were.

24        Q.   Okay.  If we can play it out, please --

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 1061

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Very well.

 2        Q.   I have to ask you a couple of questions, if I may --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye --

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- may I remind you of the time.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You're close to your 20 minutes.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I know.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:

11        Q.   You indicated in your statement that you went on the 13th of July

12     to the Srebrenica hospital, that's at paragraph 183, English 40, page 40

13     and B/C/S page 55.  What I wanted to ask you about, specifically, is that

14     you indicated that you assisted MSF to prepare certain lists.  Do you

15     recall that?

16        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

17        Q.   What I'd like to show you is 65 ter 25624.  Do you recognise this

18     document, Colonel?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

20        Q.   What do you recognise it?

21        A.   Your Honour, this was a list of those who were sick in the

22     DutchBat compound.

23        Q.   Is this the list that you helped to compile?

24        A.   Yes, sir, with MSF.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document.

Page 1062

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 2             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 25624 becomes Exhibit P35, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P35 is admitted into evidence.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to show the witness 65 ter 25625.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise this document, Colonel?

 8        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

 9        Q.   And what do you recognise it to be?

10        A.   Your Honour, this is the list of the people who were working for

11     us, that is for the UN, that we had to give the BSA for them to be

12     allowed the enclave.  This included our interpreters.

13        Q.   And did you have -- did you assist to compile this list as well?

14        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would like to tender this as well,

16     Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 25625 becomes Exhibit P36, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P36 is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:

21        Q.   Colonel, did you have an opportunity to ask General Mladic about

22     the separation that you saw occurring while you were in the Potocari area

23     concerning the men and the men and boys?

24        A.   Your Honour, I asked that question and I was told that the reason

25     why they were being separated is to help them identify those who are

Page 1063

 1     soldiers so that they can take them as prisoners of war and maybe later

 2     on exchange them with their own prisoners of war held by the Muslim side

 3     elsewhere.

 4        Q.   Did that relate to also the kids that you saw, 14, 15, and

 5     16-years-olds, as far as you understood?

 6        A.   Your Honour, it did not relate to the kids because for sure the

 7     kids were not fighting age, they were not soldiers, so I don't know why

 8     they were taking them.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  I have no further questions.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

12             Mr. Stojanovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the

13     witness?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We hope so, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kingori, you'll now be cross-examined by

16     Mr. Stojanovic.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel.  I'm

20     Miodrag Stojanovic.  We've already had an opportunity of seeing each

21     other, both in Sarajevo and here, and I'm going to deal with a few topics

22     that are of interest to the Defence.  Will you agree with me that you

23     have testified about these events already five times at least before this

24     honourable institution?

25        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I have.

Page 1064

 1        Q.   Will you agree with me that also before the court of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina in Sarajevo you testified about these events at least five

 3     times.  Some of the testimony was by videolink and other evidence was

 4     given directly in the courtrooms of the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 5        A.   Your Honour, I think in Sarajevo it's twice, not five.

 6        Q.   Mr. Kingori, may I remind you that we received documents of your

 7     testimony in the Bozic et al. case, then in the Trbic case, then the

 8     Vukovic Tomic case, then in the Dusko Jevic case, Mendeljev Djuric.  Does

 9     that refresh your memory to the effect that you testified in more than

10     two cases before the court in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it's is several cases, but I think some of them

12     were put together.

13        Q.   Thank you.  During the direct examination you spoke about your

14     professional career.  However, I would like you to tell the Trial Chamber

15     whether before October 1994, when you first came to the territory of the

16     former Yugoslavia, to Erdut, whether you had any experience with UN

17     peacekeeping missions?

18        A.   No, Your Honour, I did not have.  That was my first deployment in

19     the UN.

20        Q.   You kept a journal or, let's call them, your personal notes

21     recording daily events that you considered of importance and you did that

22     throughout your stay in Srebrenica; am I right?

23        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

24        Q.   This journal or the notes, which were concluded on the 9th of

25     July, 1995, were mentioned for the first time to the Prosecution of the

Page 1065

 1     International Criminal Tribunal during the preparations for the Popovic

 2     et al. case; am I right?

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honour, you're right.

 4        Q.   You also made notes after the 9th of July until the last day of

 5     your stay in the enclave, but according to your own statement you

 6     destroyed them for your personal safety; is that correct?

 7        A.   That's correct, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   You would also agree with me that after you had left Srebrenica

 9     you had a meeting in Zagreb alongside two other UN observers, at which

10     you submitted a report about everything that you had been asked about and

11     about all the events in Srebrenica and that took place on the 24th of

12     July, 1995.  Is that correct as well?

13        A.   That's correct, Your Honour.

14        Q.   During this briefing to your superior HQ, did you make use of

15     your notes and did you inform them that you had a personal diary that you

16     had been keeping during the reporting period?

17        A.   Your Honour, they did not ask about a diary, I did not give them.

18        Q.   Did you say at any point that you had a diary and that you could

19     provide them with the information contained therein?  Did you say any to

20     that effect to any of your superiors?

21        A.   No, Your Honour, but I gave them a proper account of what

22     happened and it was the truth and they wrote it down.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have

24     in e-court document 65 ter 17805, page 1, in both versions; and this is a

25     briefing report of military observers from the Srebrenica enclave

Page 1066

 1     compiled on the 24th of July, 1995, in Zagreb.

 2        Q.   Sir, if it is easier for you we can give you a hard copy of your

 3     statement because perhaps you might need it for reference.  Now, let's

 4     focus our attention on paragraph 2 of this document which reads:

 5             "The three UNMOs were from the Netherlands, Ghana, and Kenya.

 6     The Dutch officer had kept a detailed daily journal that he offered for

 7     future translation and use, the Ghanian had several typewritten sheets,

 8     and the Kenyan officer seemed to have no written records."

 9             Can you see this?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I can see that.

11        Q.   I'd like to ask you this:  Was there any reason at that time,

12     during the briefing, for you to avoid disclosing the diary that you kept

13     on a regular basis and that you said nothing about the possibility of

14     using it as refreshing your memory?

15        A.   Your Honour, my memory was very sharp, it was -- I had good

16     instincts, I could be able to give a proper account of the whole

17     situation.  And if you go further into the para 2 that you have given,

18     you can see where they have written:

19             "From the start of our discussion of the refugee situation, the

20     Kenyan officer took the lead role," meaning I was the one who was leading

21     the whole discussion, I knew everything, so there was no need for

22     anything else.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now we're going to go through your 65 ter statement

24     precisely with the aim of finding out how good your memory is.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe this is a

Page 1067

 1     good time for an instruction to give me.  Is this a good time to offer

 2     the documents that I'm going to use to be tendered or do I do it at the

 3     very end because we are applying different methods with different

 4     witnesses.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You're invited to tender any document at the moment

 8     or after having used it and not to wait until the very end.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for this guidance,

10     Your Honours.  So I tender into evidence document which is the report or

11     debrief of UNMOs from the Srebrenica enclave registered under number

12     17805 as 65 ter document.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

14             Madam Registrar.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  There's no objection --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 17805 becomes Exhibit D15, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D15 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Colonel, we're going to use your statement that was admitted into

21     evidence as 65 ter 28118, and I would like to go to page 5 in English,

22     paragraph 18, which is page 7 in the B/C/S version.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P34.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think your 65 ter number was not a correct

Page 1068

 1     one, but we are talking about P34.  Yes.  Once a document has been

 2     admitted into evidence, it's always better to refer to it by its exhibit

 3     number.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, and we are going

 5     to proceed in that way, and I believe we have the correct document.

 6        Q.   Colonel, could you please be kind and take a look at paragraph 18

 7     where you say - and please focus only on the first two sentences which

 8     read:

 9             "When I met Becirovic or his intelligence officer, most of the

10     time we met at the PTT building.  I think it was only once that we met at

11     the Opstina building.  As far as I know, there was no local headquarter."

12             I'd like to ask you to tell the Chamber this:  To the best of

13     your knowledge, who is this Mr. Becirovic whose name is referred to here?

14        A.   Your Honour, this was Ramiz Becirovic, the Chief of Staff of

15     28th OG.

16        Q.   Are you familiar with the name Ekrem Salihovic?

17        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I am.  He was the intelligence officer.

18        Q.   Were these two individuals active-duty military officers or were

19     they TO, or Territorial Defence, reservists?

20        A.   Your Honour, I don't know what I can call them because, for one,

21     I never saw them in uniform.  But I know they were in 28th OG.  That's

22     what we had been told.

23        Q.   You would agree with me that within the PTT building where you

24     met with them most frequently, there was also a communications centre

25     that was being used by the 28th Division?

Page 1069

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  There was a small communications centre.

 2        Q.   Do you know that the PTT building was also the command post of

 3     the 28th Division according to their deployment schedule?

 4        A.   No, Your Honour, I did not know that.

 5        Q.   Do you know who the commander of the 28th Division was whilst you

 6     were in Srebrenica?

 7        A.   Your Honour, we were always told there was somebody called

 8     Naser Oric or a name similar to that, but we did not meet him when we

 9     were there.  We just heard that he was the one in charge.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could I ask one clarification.

11             You were asked, Mr. Kingori, whether you were aware that the --

12     whether there was a -- let me see, whether you knew that the PTT building

13     was also the command post of the 28th Division.  You said you didn't know

14     that.  Could you tell us whether you observed and whether you were able

15     to observe whether there was any such command post in that building?

16             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, we were unable to establish any sort

17     of command post.  Now, whether there was any command post in that

18     building or any other military installation, other than the

19     communications centre that we could see and that we were holding meetings

20     in.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             THE WITNESS:  That was the only thing we could be able to

23     establish.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You didn't have access to the remainder of

25     that building?

Page 1070

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, we did not have access to any of the other

 2     parts.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   The question I asked you about the names of the people you

 7     mentioned was whether you knew, as an UNMO, that during the period while

 8     you were there, there was an organised and constituted unit called the

 9     28th Division made up of all its subordinate units and with proper

10     internal organisation?

11        A.   Your Honour, as far as I can remember and as far as I knew, there

12     was no such an organised division, a military division, as such that was

13     called the 28th OG.  It was not as organised as any military division

14     would be because for sure it was very difficult to hold a division in the

15     enclave, a division goes with the necessary support arms, that is like

16     the artillery, tanks, air support, and all that, and that you could not

17     be able to hold in such a small enclave.  So militarily -- and

18     somebody as -- you know, like somebody who is from a military background,

19     I know and I knew for sure you could not hold a division in such a place.

20        Q.   Then I would kindly ask you to take a look together with me at a

21     document which is 65 ter 1D00083.  While we are waiting for it to appear

22     in e-court, I'm going to tell you that this is an order issued by the

23     command -- Supreme Command of the armed forces in Sarajevo on the forming

24     of the 8th OG, and the document is dated the 1st of January, 1994.

25             Sir, you can see this document in front of you in which the staff

Page 1071

 1     of the Supreme Command of the armed forces on the 1st of January,

 2     1994 - that is to say, after the conclusion of the demilitarisation

 3     agreement and an agreement on the exclusion of any military elements

 4     whatsoever from the demilitarised zone - was nevertheless forming this

 5     unit.  Please look at paragraph I, subparagraph 1, item (a).

 6        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I can see that.  It was formed in -- to be in

 7     Potocari -- Srebrenica.  Yeah, I can see that.

 8        Q.   When you look at this document, would you agree that I am right

 9     that according to the order of the Supreme Command Staff issued on the

10     1st of January, 1994, an order was issued under (b) to form the

11     280th Light Eastern Bosnia Brigade with headquarters in Potocari,

12     281st Eastern Bosnia Brigade with the HQ in Suceska.  Then we need the

13     next page in B/C/S.  282nd Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade with an HQ in

14     Srebrenica, and I'm not going to read more.  We have 283rd, 284th

15     Brigade, et cetera, as well as an independent mountain brigade with the

16     headquarters in Srebrenica.  Therefore, according to the order that we

17     have here, there are five brigades and there is an independent mountain

18     battalion as an operative unit.

19             Now, according to this document, do you think that that would

20     amend, in any way whatsoever, the observation that you made earlier in

21     terms of there not being any organised unit in Srebrenica or that perhaps

22     you were not able to notice them in view of the area involved?

23        A.   Your Honour, this is actually in paper.  For one, I did not get a

24     chance of reading something like this at that particular moment --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you, Mr. Kingori.  Sorry to interrupt

Page 1072

 1     you.  Do you have any knowledge of this formation of units or military?

 2     Do you have any knowledge of it?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I don't have any knowledge of the

 4     formation of these units.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             THE WITNESS:  But I wanted to add that according to my big

 7     military background and the situation on ground at that particular

 8     moment, it was impossible to have such a big force in that particular

 9     area, and especially when we talk about a division because it is -- a

10     division is a very big formation, it's the second-highest formation

11     before an army.  And a unit goes with its support arms.  This is not the

12     way the BSA side was formed.  That was an organised military group, that

13     is the BSA.  We saw the echelons and support arms --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

15             THE WITNESS:  -- but here what I'm trying to say is that this

16     could have been on paper, but on ground we could not see something close

17     to this.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear.

19             Mr. Stojanovic, we should clearly distinguish between what a

20     witness can tell us what he observed, and of course you can put to him

21     that there's documentary evidence which -- and whether -- which

22     established certain units and whether that causes any doubt on his mind

23     as whether he may have misobserved what really happened on the ground,

24     but that can be done more efficiently than by just putting it briefly to

25     him and this document could perhaps be tendered from the bar table so as

Page 1073

 1     to give support to what you put to the witness rather than to read the

 2     whole of the document.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you, Your

 4     Honours.  That was exactly my intention.  I was seeking to hear the

 5     witness's opinion as well as the question that was put to him before

 6     about what he thought that General Mladic had in mind and that motived me

 7     to formulate the question in this manner.  Maybe, as you say, this is a

 8     good time to have this document entered into evidence and we are going to

 9     use it at a later stage, and I'm talking about 65 ter document 1D00083.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections.

11             Madam Registrar --

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No objections.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes -- I saw you nodding and that's why I said.

14     I always expect the parties, if there's any objection, to raise that

15     spontaneously.  Sometimes I would say in the absence of any objections,

16     but even if I do not say that, I expect you to object if there's any

17     objection against admission when the document is tendered.

18             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D83 [sic] becomes Exhibit D16,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D16 is admitted into evidence.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   I'm going to move to another area.  Only one more question

25     relating to the PTT building.  Colonel, did you have an opportunity to

Page 1074

 1     see that there was a shelter within the building?

 2        A.   Your Honour, if you mean a bunker, yes, there was a bunker and we

 3     used it.  It was there.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to call again document P34, that's

 5     Mr. Kingori's statement given according to 65 ter.  We need page 7 in

 6     English and 9 in B/C/S.  Paragraph 27.

 7             Briefly, sir, let's go quickly through this paragraph because I

 8     have analysed it extensively.  Here you say:

 9             "I really do not remember whether it ever happened, because most

10     of the accusations on attacks were coming from the BH, saying that they

11     had been attacked by the BSA, but normally not the other way around, not

12     the BSA complaining about attacks from the BiH.  It was, I think, very

13     rare or never occurred."

14             Do you see this?

15        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

16        Q.   Now let us take a look together at paragraph 62 of the same

17     statement, page 15 in English and 20, page 20, in B/C/S, paragraph 62,

18     where the Prosecution is instructing you in this statement that what you

19     said, or rather, bringing to your attention that what you said does not

20     correspond entirely to the contents of your diary because this is where

21     meetings with the Army of Republika Srpska during May and June were

22     mentioned, and it was you who personally recorded in this document the

23     complaints from the Serbian side about the military activities of the

24     Bosnian side, and you were being asked why you had never mentioned that

25     before.

Page 1075

 1             Now, I would like to tell you that we can refresh your memory

 2     about your diary and we can do that, but let me ask you:  Do you remember

 3     that there had been complaints coming from the Serbian side about the

 4     violation of demilitarisation and other issues that were committed or

 5     done by the BH army?

 6        A.   Yes, Your Honour, there was some few, and that is why even in the

 7     earlier statement you can see I say there were few or none at all,

 8     meaning they were there, there are some of them, but not as many as from

 9     the Muslim side.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask for a document, 65 ter 04392.

11     Could we please have that in e-court.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] While we're waiting for it,

13     Your Honours, may I say that this is an operations report that the

14     command of the 28th Division sent to its superior command, namely, the

15     2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 30th of June,

16     1995.  This report is signed by the Chief of Staff of the 28th Division,

17     Major Ramiz Becirovic.

18        Q.   Colonel, sir, the first thing I wish to ask you before we focus

19     on this document, and in view of the fact that you have already told us

20     why you think that such a unit did not exist in the enclave, did you know

21     that from the enclave there were several attacks against the territory

22     that was under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska outside the

23     enclave?

24        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  We knew these people were connected to other

25     areas where Muslims were, like Zepa, Tuzla, and all that.  But just on a

Page 1076

 1     clarification of what you said about "inside the enclave," the military

 2     organisation there, that you are calling a military organisation, was not

 3     there as such.  But of course the connections were there and they were

 4     known.

 5        Q.   I'm going to ask you specifically about the military unit that

 6     they're dealing with and that was established on the basis of that order.

 7     We have before you now a document in which they are reporting to their

 8     superior command on what they had done.  However, before we move on to

 9     that, did you know - and on the basis of the way in which information was

10     collected, as you told us during the first part of your testimony - did

11     you come to learn that a unit inside the enclave, regardless of what its

12     force or strength may have been in organisational structure, had

13     instructions to engage through active combat as many forces of the VRS as

14     possible because of the situation concerning the offensive around

15     Sarajevo.  Did you ever receive information to that effect?

16        A.   Your Honour, we did not receive such information, and also I'm

17     surprised - and maybe that could have come as a surprise - that any

18     military organisation inside Srebrenica could go out there and assist

19     other areas.  And what military are we talking about to go out there and

20     assist?  You are talking about a handful of civilians with small arms.

21     You are talking about -- all the heavy weapons had been kept in a

22     DutchBat compound, that is the Bravo Company, and that one is evident,

23     and we used to see those arms there, heavy support arms.  So in essence,

24     the kind of soldiers you may be talking about are soldiers with small

25     arms, those -- and even their training, I doubt whether it was a proper

Page 1077

 1     training, because some of them were just being picked.

 2             What I'm trying to tell you, to explain to you, is that there is

 3     a difference here - and it needs to be noted - that the BSA actually was

 4     an army, was a proper military.  Inside the enclave the people you can

 5     call -- you are calling an army, in fact these are people with small

 6     arms.  Yeah, sometimes occasionally we could see or hear about a heavy

 7     machine-gun, but nothing beyond that at all.  So trying to show like --

 8     they could go there out and support, yes, but in -- at what level of

 9     support?  At what level?  And comparing with the BSA side, then

10     obviously, if this is the intelligence you are using, it obviously maybe

11     meant that you made an overkill when the BSA attacked the enclave, it was

12     an overkill, because these guys were not as heavily armed as you are

13     taking it to be.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I notice the following.  The witness

15     in paragraphs 27 and 62 of his statement stated what was reported to him.

16     Apparently now you are going into detail on whether those reports were

17     right or wrong and what happened on the ground.  Before we deal with that

18     with this witness we should first try to find out whether he has any

19     knowledge of what happened there because on his last answer there seems

20     to be a lot of speculation there, that if this would be then you would

21     not expect this, or that would surprise me; that's all speculations, no

22     factual knowledge.

23             Second, the witness made a clear distinction in paragraphs 27 and

24     62 about any military activity from inside to the outside of the enclave.

25     He said these things were not reported; and if so, on a very minimal

Page 1078

 1     scale.  Again, if you are putting this to the witness and if you think

 2     it's relevant at all, we first have to find out whether the witness has

 3     any knowledge about it.  He may have misobserved.  I'm not saying that it

 4     did not happen, not in any way, but let's put questions to the witness on

 5     matters he knows and rather not to say:  Could it be that you misobserved

 6     matters because we have documents which says otherwise.  These documents

 7     may be very valid evidence, but for the witness to answer questions, we

 8     should establish that he has any of such knowledge, that's one; and

 9     second, if he makes a clear distinction between reports from what

10     happened from inside, then you should also address that on any further

11     question you ask him.  Please proceed.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  That is

13     precisely why I'm using this document.  It is the document of a unit that

14     says itself that it is a unit within the enclave.

15        Q.   That's why I'm going to move step by step, Colonel.  This unit

16     within the enclave that you mentioned as the 28th Division, on the 13th

17     of June at the time when you were there says, inter alia, that on the

18     23rd of June, 1995 - when you were there, in the area of Osmace and in

19     the area of Bijela Stijena - they say themselves that they liquidated

20     seven Chetniks and all with a view to preventing the Army of

21     Republika Srpska from going to the Sarajevo front line as a

22     reinforcement.  This is what I'm asking you now:  Did you ever have any

23     information about these events, yes or no?  And then I shall move on.

24        A.   Your Honour, I will answer you this way.  The reports we were

25     getting from the attacks by BSA on the Muslims was coming from the

Page 1079

 1     Muslims.  Therefore, it means the reports we could have gotten on the

 2     Muslims attacking the BSA so -- should have actually come from the BSA.

 3     And on this occasion, the BSA never reported any attacks on them, so we

 4     had no way of knowing because obviously if the Muslims had attacked, they

 5     could not tell us.  But the BSA should have informed us in various

 6     meetings that we were holding with them.  They did not report to us.

 7        Q.   So the answer would be that you had not heard of these events on

 8     the 23rd of June; is that right?

 9        A.   Your Honour, the answer is that the report should have come --

10     could have come from the BSA, they did not report to us so we did not get

11     to know about it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And for the previous questions, whether you

13     had any knowledge, if you would have said no, that would answered the

14     question as well instead of giving a long explanation as why.  If we are

15     interested in further explanations, Mr. Stojanovic will certainly ask you

16     for it.

17             Please proceed.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I shall

20     try to put as many questions as possible that would require only yes or

21     no answers.

22        Q.   Please look at paragraph 3 of what Ramiz Becirovic says as Chief

23     of Staff of the 28th Division.  He is saying to his superior command in

24     Tuzla that his units, with a view to averting enemy forces from the

25     Sarajevo front line and in order to spread them out towards Srebrenica

Page 1080

 1     and Zepa, to stretch them, on the 26th of June, while you were in the

 2     enclave, they carried out a diversion towards Han Pijesak and Vlasenica

 3     and then he says what the areas were, what the actual localities were,

 4     and he establishes - I think it's the next page in B/C/S now - and he

 5     establishes that on that occasion, according to their estimates, that is

 6     to say of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, over 40 Chetniks were

 7     killed.  And according to unconfirmed information, they sustained losses

 8     amounting to 71 soldiers.  As a military observer, did you at any point

 9     in time, in any of the ways that you described, receive any information

10     about the attack against the village of Visnjica and its torching on the

11     26th of June, 1995, yes or no?

12        A.   No, we did not.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I shall move on.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, again, I -- of course we had only a

15     short opportunity to read through the document.  It defines the unit

16     involved in it.  But where the operation started, which apparently went

17     well far into territory which was occupied or was under the control of

18     the opposite party, it doesn't say it anywhere.  So whether they

19     initiated these operations from within Srebrenica and then went out or

20     whether they were already out and made those operations there, I was

21     unable to find any information on this.  And that was the key issue that

22     was put to the witness earlier.  I do not find, just reviewing it very

23     quickly, any information about that in this document.  As a matter of

24     fact, it does say that the operations were deep inside, as they call it,

25     territory temporarily occupied by the enemy.

Page 1081

 1             So it's still -- and you are more or less implicitly blaming

 2     Mr. Kingori for not knowing all of this.  What he said in his statement

 3     was what was reported to him.  That was what he limited himself to that,

 4     and I think even in the statement we find that what may have happened

 5     outside, he has no knowledge of it.  So it may well be that it happened.

 6     I'm not saying in any way that it did not happen, but let's stick to what

 7     this witness can tell us and let's not put the whole of the war history

 8     through this witness.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Just in

11     terms of our further questions, in paragraph 1 of this document it

12     states -- it is stated clearly which units actually did that, and it says

13     there that these were soldiers of the 28th Division and they were located

14     in the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa.  I'm not going to deal with this

15     any longer, but that was the reason why I used this document.  If you

16     allow me, perhaps this would be the right moment to tender this document

17     into evidence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No objection, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04392 becomes Exhibit D17, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D17 is admitted into evidence.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, I would not mind if you follow me in my

24     distinction between from where an operation was initiated, that's one,

25     even if you are located in a certain area you may initiate operations

Page 1082

 1     from elsewhere; second, you only mentioned paragraph 1 located in the

 2     Srebrenica - and it reads - "and Zepa enclaves," which already makes

 3     clear that it perhaps could have been from Srebrenica, perhaps from Zepa,

 4     or from any other place.  I just want you to be very precise on these

 5     matters.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  If you allow me,

 8     Your Honours, just a minute of consultation with General Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I thank the Court for their

13     understanding, and I shall proceed now.

14        Q.   Colonel, sir, could you please clarify your technique of your

15     diary entries.  Could you tell me whether you noted down in your diary

16     all the meetings that you had with the parties in and around Srebrenica,

17     that is to say both the Bosnian and the Serb side?

18        A.   Your Honour, I did not have one diary, I had several diaries, and

19     it is written in my report that I had several diaries, one of them which

20     was very important and critical on the BSA side, I had to destroy it for

21     my own safety.  But I did not just have one diary -- in fact, it was not

22     a diary as such, it was a book, record, of the meetings and all that.

23        Q.   I'll try to be more specific and I'll ask you to give more

24     specific answers as well.  In the notebook that you kept for June 1995,

25     did you record such meetings with any one of the warring parties?

Page 1083

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   Would I be right if I were to say that the conclusions from

 3     meetings that you consider to be relevant and important would be included

 4     in your daily report and submitted to your headquarters in Tuzla?

 5        A.   That is true.

 6        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you to look at your statement once again,

 7     P34.  Let's look at that together, the one that you gave according to

 8     Rule 65 ter.  Page 7 of the English version, 10 in B/C/S, and let us

 9     focus our attention on 30 and 31, and Mr. Vanderpuye already dealt with

10     that during his direct examination.  In June -- actually, perhaps it

11     would be right and proper if you were to be given the opportunity to read

12     this first.

13             So in June, Colonel, as you say in paragraph 30.  In June 1995

14     you attended a meeting that was held at the Fontana Hotel and where

15     Colonel Vukovic was present.  The meeting had been called by

16     Major Nikolic and his team.  Do you -- actually, you do remember that

17     there were a few senior officers there, including Colonel Vukovic.  First

18     of all, may I ask you the following:  Can you tell the Court what is your

19     recollection, who was Colonel Vukovic and do you know which unit he

20     belonged to?

21        A.   Your Honour, I knew Colonel Vukovic as a senior BSA officer who

22     was maybe in the headquarters.  All I know is that he was a senior BSA

23     officer and he was in charge of that general area.

24        Q.   So you do not know from the point of view of establishment which

25     unit he belongs to; right?

Page 1084

 1        A.   No, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   When you say "no," you mean that you do not know; is my

 3     understanding correct?

 4        A.   When I say "no," Your Honour, I mean I did not know the specific

 5     unit that he was leading.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  That was my understanding, but for the sake of the

 7     record I wanted to have it clarified.  Now let us look at paragraph 31 of

 8     your statement.  So this Colonel Vukovic, at that meeting in June 1995,

 9     to the best of your recollection says that they do not want the Muslims

10     there, that he can give them safe passage, and if they do not want to

11     leave of their own free will he would kill them.  And then you quote his

12     words:

13             "You better leave, and if you don't want to leave willingly we

14     will clear the enclave of you."

15             Will you agree with me that these are extremely serious words and

16     very delicate warnings that you were given on that occasion by

17     Colonel Vukovic?

18        A.   Yes, Your Honour, these were very serious issues being and

19     that -- you know, dead-lines being given by Colonel Vukovic.  We took

20     them very seriously.  We reported the same to the UN system, and later on

21     you see that what he was saying is actually what they did later.

22        Q.   Mr. Kingori, I made an effort to read your notes several times as

23     well as your reports that you submitted to headquarters from June 1995

24     because you could not specify the date.  Nowhere in your reports did I

25     find any of this that would indicate that you conveyed such serious

Page 1085

 1     warnings to your superior command.  Since the break will take place soon,

 2     I would like to ask you kindly to go through your notes.  I have them

 3     here and could you then please tell us whether I'm right.  Also, the UNMO

 4     reports that you sent in June 1995, that will be tendered into evidence

 5     in this trial.

 6             So I'd like to ask you once again, now that I've said all of this

 7     to you, are you still of the opinion that you conveyed this serious

 8     warning to your headquarters in Tuzla?

 9        A.   Your Honour, mine is not an opinion.  Colonel Vukovic told us

10     this --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me -- the question took one minute, more than

12     one minute, Mr. Stojanovic, where apparently you wanted to ask the

13     witness a very simple question:  Did you ever write down in your notes or

14     in any of your reports this threat?  And then the answer would be:  Yes

15     or no.  And that would take us five seconds for the question and now the

16     witness -- did you -- what you said in your statement about if they don't

17     go we'll kill them, did you ever write that down either in your diary or

18     did you report that to any of your superiors in any official report.

19     That's the question.

20             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I wrote it down in my diary, the one I

21     destroyed, and it is supported in the situation report.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then the parties are, of course, invited to see

23     whether it's anywhere in those reports.

24             We'll take a break anyhow.

25             Mr. Kingori, could you already follow the usher.  We'd like to

Page 1086

 1     see you back in half an hour.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell us how much time

 4     you'd further need for your cross-examination?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to my

 6     notes and what I planned to ask, I shall try to speed things up by

 7     putting simpler questions, although I have an interlocutor who is as

 8     verbose as I am, but I think I will be able to finish within the next two

 9     hours.  I have three video recordings and five documents left.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll see how it develops.  Don't blame the witness

11     for your long questions.  If he --

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I won't.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- gives you long answers, it's for you to stop him

14     and to take him back to the question, rather than to say he's long,

15     therefore I'm long as well.  That's not an appropriate approach I would

16     say.

17             We'll take a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 1.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20                           --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, if there's anything you would like to

22     raise, please consult with counsel.

23             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready, please proceed.

Page 1087

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 2             Your Honours, with your permission just one digression.  We

 3     reviewed the transcript and it seems to us that on page

 4     75 [as interpreted], line 7, the last answer given by Mr. Kingori was not

 5     recorded.  Therefore, I'm going to repeat my question and we can do away

 6     with this quickly.

 7        Q.   Mr. Kingori, if I understood you correctly --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I do not mind if you have concerns,

 9     but I'm at page 72, so what misses at page 75 is not apparent to me yet.

10     Whether you think an answer is missing, please put a short question to

11     the witness and then we'll receive a short answer by him I take it.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It's a translation

13     issue, page 70, line 7.  You can see that for yourself, Your Honours.

14        Q.   So, Mr. Kingori, if I understood your answer correctly, you say

15     that the notes that you destroyed contain the impressions and the

16     information and the threats made by Colonel Vukovic on the meeting of the

17     25th of June.  Did I understand you correctly?

18        A.   Your Honour, what I meant was that part of that information is

19     there.  But the other information that was there, that was being conveyed

20     to us by the BSA, and also some strategic information concerning the

21     locations of some equipments, and also the use and the attacks on the

22     enclave, some of them were in that notebook.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I'll move on now.  I'd like to draw your attention

24     again to your statement, P34.  Page 11 in English and page 15 in B/C/S,

25     paragraph 46.  And we'll just go through this briefly.  In

Page 1088

 1     examination-in-chief you mentioned the Bandera Triangle.  Do you recall

 2     that?

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

 4        Q.   Will you agree with me that that was an integral part of the

 5     protected zone of Srebrenica in which the UN observers most often were

 6     denied access?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.  That is very true.

 8        Q.   Would you agree with me that at one point a number of members of

 9     DutchBat from the UNPROFOR had even been detained in the Bandera Triangle

10     area?

11        A.   I'm aware of that, Your Honour.

12        Q.   If weapons or ammunition were being supplied to that area, you

13     wouldn't be able to observe that and therefore you wouldn't be able to

14     carry out your mission; am I right if I say that?

15        A.   You're partly right and partly wrong.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I interrupt you, Mr. Stojanovic.

17             By whom were UN observers denied the right to -- of access and/or

18     even detained, Mr. Kingori?

19             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, we were denied freedom of movement in

20     the Bandera Triangle by the Muslims.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22             Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Colonel, can you please tell us, when I say that you were not

25     able to observe the supply of weapons and ammunition, is there any part

Page 1089

 1     of the statement that I have just made that is not true?

 2        A.   Your Honour, what I said is that when you say the supply of

 3     weapons could not have been known by us in that particular area, I said

 4     part of what you've said is true and partly not true, in that we -- it is

 5     true we could not have known everything in that area that we don't have

 6     freedom of movement.  At the same time, movement of heavy equipment,

 7     movement of arms, could have been seen by other observers.  Other

 8     observers, I'm talking about the BSA could also have seen and told us

 9     about it, so that's why I said it's partly true and partly not true

10     because there were other observers who could have informed us.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   If I received a correct translation, you believe there were

14     military observers, Serb military observers, who could have observed

15     this?

16        A.   Your Honour, I didn't say "military observers."  I said

17     "observers," people who could observe, people who could have seen, and

18     that's why I mentioned the BSA could have seen that.  And I will give an

19     example of when an aircraft crashed:  A helicopter crashed.  We did not

20     see it as military observers, the Muslims did not tell us, but we were

21     told by the BSA about it.

22        Q.   This is my next question.  So you did receive information that at

23     one point this area was used as a helicopter pad for supplying

24     necessities; is that correct?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, isn't that in the statement?  So if

Page 1090

 1     you have any follow-up questions, no problem; but let's then start where

 2     the witness stated about it.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, and this is

 4     going to be a question corroborating my own statement.  But if you allow

 5     me, let me rephrase my question.

 6        Q.   Mr. Kingori, having in mind what you had just said about the

 7     information that you had, and knowing what is contained in the documents

 8     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I put it to you that on the 25th of

 9     May, 1995, a helicopter was downed, a helicopter which was used to supply

10     provisions and other necessities to the enclave.  Is this information

11     correct and did you have it, yes or no?

12        A.   Your Honour, the information I have or I got that time was that a

13     helicopter was downed, but whether it was carrying military hardware or

14     not, I do not know.  But in my statement you also see I mentioned about

15     Ramiz Becirovic being in that helicopter.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you try to investigate this information, to see

17     whose helicopter it was and whether it belonged to the 28th Division or

18     perhaps some other unit of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19        A.   Your Honour, we tried to investigate, but we could not get more

20     information as to where it belonged, whom it belonged to, and what it

21     could have been carrying.

22        Q.   You sought this information from Ramiz Becirovic and other

23     authorities in Srebrenica; correct?

24        A.   Correct, Your Honour.

25        Q.   And those were the ones who declined to provide this information

Page 1091

 1     to you; am I right?

 2        A.   Your Honour, on this one my answer is:  We were investigating

 3     through those people, but at the same time when we sent that report

 4     outside to the UN system, the UN headquarters, we expected them to handle

 5     it at another level.  In fact, that was the essence of such kind of

 6     information.  So it was not just for our use.  Everybody who was in the

 7     system was free to investigate and let us know.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kingori, what Mr. Stojanovic apparently wants to

 9     know is whether when you sought information from Ramiz Becirovic and

10     other authorities in Srebrenica, whether they declined to provide the

11     information you requested.  That is the simple question.

12             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, when he has talked about

13     Ramiz Becirovic and other authorities in Srebrenica, that's why I'm

14     involving -- I'm involving everybody; that is, Becirovic and his ATG and

15     also the external actors.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but did they deny to give you the information

17     you were asking for?

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, they did not give us that information.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That was the question.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm going to finish

22     this section with one document, then I'll move to another topic.

23             Can we have in e-court 65 ter 25607, pages 4 in both B/C/S and

24     English versions.

25             While we are waiting for it, Your Honours, I'm going to wrap-up

Page 1092

 1     this segment with the report, or rather, an introductory note made by the

 2     commander of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, army General Rasim Delic,

 3     when he addressed the Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 4     about the reasons and causes of the military fall of Srebrenica in July

 5     1995.

 6        Q.   Since this is a rather long document, Mr. Kingori, can we please

 7     just take a look at it, specifically page 4, in which the BiH army

 8     commander, among other things, says that there is a summary of how many

 9     ammunition and pieces of weapons and other pieces of equipment, mortar

10     shells, mortars, communication devices, sniper rifles, and mortar shells

11     were delivered to the Srebrenica enclave, and he says that this amount of

12     supplies had not been received by Gorazde and that the defence of

13     Sarajevo in 1993 used even less equipment and ammunition?

14             In view of your experience as an air force colonel, if you can,

15     would you agree with me and say that I'm right, that this quantity of

16     equipment, weapons, and ammunition and the statement made by the BH army

17     commander to the effect that this big amount was neither possessed by

18     Zepa nor Sarajevo, are you telling me that this was something that was

19     going on in the enclave and that you were unable to observe that, yes or

20     no?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, that's not how you can ask that.

22     You put to the witness a report.  Then you start telling him whether this

23     would be what -- what his assessment -- you're asking actually for an

24     expert opinion.  And then apparently based on the assumption that it was

25     all delivered, then you ask the witness whether it's reasonable that he

Page 1093

 1     could have missed it, yes or no.  That's, first of all, three questions;

 2     you should split them up.

 3             So please take it in an orderly manner this matter and ask

 4     questions, of course, primarily -- although you, of course, you may put

 5     something to a witness if need be.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll go step by

 7     step.

 8        Q.   First, Mr. Kingori, my question is:  Did you and your colleagues

 9     from the UN observer mission have any information about the supply of

10     these weapons and equipment, et cetera, as listed here by the BH army

11     commander, yes or no?

12        A.   No, we did not have that information.

13        Q.   Thank you.  My next question:  Bearing in mind your professional

14     experience, to which you referred in examination-in-chief when you

15     answered Mr. Vanderpuye's questions, was this quantity that you see

16     before you a respectable one consisting of weapons and ammunition, as

17     qualified by the army General Rasim Delic?

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand what is meant by "respectable"

21     in the sentence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And apart from that, Mr. Stojanovic, it says:

23             "Until the time of the accident in May, we managed to supply the

24     following to Srebrenica (without Zepa)."

25             Would that mean that in order to give an assessment if at all

Page 1094

 1     possible, whether this was reasonable supplies for a small unit or a

 2     larger unit, and apparently that does not appear in your question yet,

 3     but that you wouldn't have to know starting at what date?  Was this since

 4     1992, was this since 1993, was this until -- by the way, may I take it,

 5     although it doesn't say so, and the witness would not know, that May most

 6     likely is until May 1995, at least I could guess that that is it.  And

 7     then second, the witness arrived after that.  So these are at least four

 8     or five uncertainties which have to be clarified because you could even

 9     ask this question to the witness apart from whether the question itself

10     is clear.  So please take it in an orderly manner and try to elicit the

11     evidence you are seeking.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours.

13     I'll try to separate my questions.

14        Q.   Mr. Kingori, the quantity, or rather, quantities of equipment,

15     ammunition, and weapons that you see before you in this document, page 4,

16     according to your knowledge, would that quantity be sufficient to arm a

17     unit equal to a brigade in strength?

18        A.   Your Honour, it's difficult for me to answer this because I don't

19     know from when and whether it was supplied at one time, just once, or is

20     a continuous supply?  Because the way they are saying here is:

21             "Until the time of accident in May ..."

22             And the war started much earlier, I think it started in 1991, so

23     it's difficult for me to answer that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please move on, Mr. Stojanovic.  It might also

25     depend on how heavy the smokers are which have to consume the cigarettes

Page 1095

 1     which are on this list.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours.  I will

 3     endeavour to make only one more digression from this document, and after

 4     that I would seek this document to be tendered in evidence.

 5        Q.   But before that, please look at page 3 of this document in both

 6     versions where it says that:

 7             "The worst accident occurred on the 7th of May, 1995, when a

 8     helicopter was destroyed right above its destination ... on which

 9     occasion the helicopter crew was killed and nine of twenty-two

10     passengers, among whom were three doctors ... who were recruited for the

11     needs of the 28th Division."

12             Now my question is:  Is this information consistent with the

13     information that you mentioned some time ago about the shooting down of a

14     helicopter?

15        A.   Your Honour, it's difficult for me to answer that question.

16        Q.   I'm not going to ask you any further questions about this.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a

18     good opportunity to tender this document, 65 ter 25607, into evidence.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No objection, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 25607 becomes Exhibit D18, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D18 is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Colonel, allow me to move to another topic now and we'll try to

25     be more speedy.  On the 9th of July you decided for personal safety

Page 1096

 1     reasons --

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your

 3     indulgence, is it possible for me to have a brief consultation with my

 4     client?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 6                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   Colonel, on the 9th of July, according to your statement, you

 9     decided for personal safety reasons to leave Srebrenica; is that correct?

10        A.   That's correct, Your Honour.

11        Q.   I would kindly ask you to take a look at your document P34 --

12     actually, your statement, paragraph 104.  In English it's page 23,

13     B/C/S 32.

14             In the statement that you gave that was admitted into evidence,

15     you said, inter alia, that you wanted to have a meeting with the deputy

16     mayor so that he can give us permission to leave the PTT building.

17             "It may look a bit funny that we were asking for permission, but

18     we felt intimidated by the presence of some armed BiH soldiers out of the

19     building moving around."

20             Do you see this?

21        A.   Yes, I do, Your Honour.

22        Q.   What I would like to ask you about this segment of your testimony

23     is the following.  At that specific moment, that is to say on the 9th of

24     July -- and if you can give an estimate to the Court, approximately at

25     what time you had this conversation or meeting with the deputy mayor?

Page 1097

 1        A.   Your Honour, the first meeting was slightly after 12.00, so it

 2     could have been about 1300 hours, somewhere there, which he declined to

 3     give us the permission to leave the PTT building.  And later on we had

 4     another meeting with him later around -- just some minutes to 6.00, of

 5     which he agreed to let us leave PTT.

 6        Q.   Colonel, at that point in time, on the 9th, either during the

 7     first or the second meeting, did you have information that on the

 8     previous day at 1450 hours, that is, the 8th of July, while UNPROFOR was

 9     withdrawing from Foxtrot observation post, one member of the BH army

10     killed one of the members of the APC crew, a member of the Dutch

11     Battalion?

12        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I was aware.

13        Q.   Was that precisely the cause of your concern, as a result of

14     which you sought permission from the representative of the local

15     authorities to leave Srebrenica?

16        A.    No, Your Honour, it was not.  That was not the reason why we had

17     to seek permission, and the reason was we saw those armed personnel

18     outside there, and there were a lot of people, a lot of IDPs who were

19     outside the main entrance.  And thirdly, we did not want to leave like we

20     are running away because we had stayed with them for a long time and we

21     had already seen a tank positioned at a certain location about

22     2 kilometres away to the right, and we knew that that was a possible

23     assault on the area.  So we wanted to leave, and peacefully too.

24        Q.   I shall stop you there, with all due respect.  I shall interrupt

25     you with all due respect, because the question was whether that was the

Page 1098

 1     reason and the answer is no and I have to move on.  Please, now let us

 2     look together at 04005, that's a 65 ter number, let's look at that

 3     together in e-court.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while we're

 5     waiting for the document to appear, let me say that it was signed by

 6     Osman Suljic on the 9th of July, 1995, and that corresponds to what

 7     Mr. Kingori was saying a moment ago.  This is a document that the

 8     Presidency of the Srebrenica municipality is sending to the president of

 9     the Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic, and to the commander of the RBH army,

10     army General Rasim Delic, who we mentioned a moment ago.

11        Q.   And it says here, inter alia, in line 5 from the bottom that:

12             "Urgently, at the level of state and military organs of the

13     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina a meeting with the Serb aggressor side be

14     held as expeditiously as possible with the aim of finding a possibility

15     to opening a corridor for the population to move to the nearest free

16     territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina under the control of

17     international factors."

18             This is my question to you now --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated]

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   This is my question to you:  On that day, on the 9th, dramatic

22     things were already underway.  Did you have information to the effect

23     that the civilian leadership of the enclave of Srebrenica was asking for

24     a meeting with the Serb side in order to find the possibility of opening

25     a corridor for the population to move out, yes or no?

Page 1099

 1        A.   No, we were not aware of that, and this meeting is being recorded

 2     later in the day, 1900 hours, and we had already left PTT.

 3        Q.   And you were in Potocari at the facilities of DutchBat; right?

 4        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Are you familiar with the following information from the sources

 6     that you mentioned in your direct examination, namely, that the

 7     leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina - as we've heard

 8     here - Alija Izetbegovic and Hasan Muratovic, refused the possibility of

 9     opening a corridor and having the population move out; did you receive

10     that information?

11        A.   I'm not familiar with that information.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I shall move on,

14     Your Honours.  This may be the right moment for me to ask you to have

15     this document admitted into evidence, 65 ter 04005, that's the number.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04005 becomes Exhibit D19, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D19 is admitted into evidence.

19             Mr. Stojanovic, before you proceed there are a few smaller

20     procedural matters which I would like to deal with before we adjourn.  If

21     you have one or two or three minutes for your next questions, that's

22     okay; but if you have other plans, then I'd rather already excuse the

23     witness now.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With all due respect,

25     Your Honours, I would opt for the second possibility then, Your Honour.

Page 1100

 1     Could I please ask how much time I have left tomorrow so that I

 2     reorganise myself and deal with matters as efficiently as possible.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we'll check.  You said you would need another

 4     two hours and you expected to finish within two hours.  We'll ask the

 5     Registry for detailed information.  We'll let you know.

 6             Then, Mr. Kingori, we will soon adjourn for the day but have to

 7     deal with a few other matters.  I would like to instruct you that you

 8     should not speak or communicate in any other way with whomever about your

 9     testimony, whether it's testimony already given or testimony still to be

10     given tomorrow, and we expect to conclude your -- hearing your evidence

11     tomorrow.  Could you please follow the usher, and we would like to see

12     you back tomorrow morning at 9.00.

13             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  There were a few matters left.  Let me start with

16     one about the hearings this week.

17             Earlier this week the Defence requested that the Chamber consider

18     sitting for shorter periods for the remainder of this week, and that

19     request is at transcript page 918.  After considering the Defence request

20     and taking into consideration that there is not enough time to receive

21     medical information, the Chamber nonetheless informs the parties that for

22     the two remaining days this week, that is, Thursday and Friday, Friday,

23     the 20th of July, the court sessions will be shortened to no more than

24     one hour of sitting time, but this also means that the breaks will be

25     shortened to 20 minutes.  Therefore, we'll sit until approximately 10.00,

Page 1101

 1     have then a break until 10.20; then continue until 11.20, then resume

 2     after a break at 11.40 until 12.40; and then the final session will begin

 3     at approximately 1.00 p.m. and will last for 45 minutes, until 1.45 p.m.,

 4     the regular end time of a morning court hearing.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated]

 7             Mr. Groome, you asked to be allowed to make short submissions on

 8     proposed -- on a proposal with how to deal with adjudicated facts and

 9     agreed facts, and also something about the reference to 65 ter numbers.

10     You have the next nine minutes to make such submissions.  If you cannot

11     finish, we'll try to find more time tomorrow.

12             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Before I do that, though,

13     in connection with what Your Honours have just said, the Prosecution have

14     been watching the amount of time that we were using this week and had

15     considered the possibility of discussing with the Defence the conversion

16     of RM255 from my viva voce to a 92 ter witness.  There is a good

17     statement that we could use.  Could I ask the Chamber, if Mr. Lukic does

18     agree to such conversion, would the Chamber entertain an oral application

19     to take this witness's evidence 92 ter?

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We would entertain such an oral application.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, may I first address you on adjudicated

23     facts.  Your Honours, it is the Prosecution's intention to incorporate

24     into its case comprehensive reliance on the adjudicated facts of other

25     Chambers, which this Chamber has taken judicial notice of.  While doing

Page 1102

 1     so permits this trial to benefit from the work and reliable factual

 2     findings of other Trial Chambers, the Prosecution must be cautious of

 3     when and how it relies on them, to ensure that we do so appropriately and

 4     we do so in a way that should the fact be challenged at some time in the

 5     future, the Prosecution is in a position to demonstrate to this Chamber,

 6     or the Appeals Chamber, what evidence it did not adduce in reliance on a

 7     particular fact.

 8             With respect to witnesses who do testify, the Prosecution is

 9     proposing that it follows a procedure similar to what I did with

10     Mr. Harland and what Mr. Vanderpuye did with Mr. Kingori; that is, where

11     the Prosecution believes it can appropriately not adduce evidence in

12     reliance on an adjudicated fact or facts, it will make a brief statement

13     that it is doing so; where knowledge of these facts is necessary to

14     contextualise the witness's evidence which is led in court, the

15     Prosecution will briefly summarise the facts so that the Chamber and the

16     Defence can better understand the witness's evidence.

17             This practice may assist the Chamber in the future.  Should a

18     particular fact be challenged, the Chamber can identify at least some of

19     the evidence the Prosecution did not adduce in reliance on the

20     adjudicated fact.  Such practice will also serve to notify the Defence,

21     should they wish to challenge particular facts, which witnesses the

22     Prosecution believes are capable of providing evidence relevant to these

23     facts.  The Prosecution considers that the Defence, knowing such, will be

24     placed in a better position to adduce evidence pursuant to Rule 90(H),

25     which may serve to challenge that fact.

Page 1103

 1             Your Honour, that concludes my observations or submission on

 2     adjudicated facts.  I don't expect any response from the Defence or the

 3     Chamber.  I just wanted to make these submissions in the hopes that over

 4     the course of the recess they might be considered; and if the Chamber

 5     disagrees with such a procedure, they can make that note to the Chamber

 6     and we'll of course adapt our procedures accordingly.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course the Chamber would appreciate if it would

 8     know the position of the Defence on it when we consider this, not

 9     necessarily to be given now, Mr. Lukic, but soon in an appropriate

10     format.

11             Then we'll consider the matter and I think you also wanted to

12     make a proposal on agreed facts --

13             MR. GROOME:  Agreed facts.  Yes, Your Honour.

14             Your Honours pointed out, I believe it was on Monday, that if the

15     Prosecution agreed with a Defence assertion to Mr. Harland, that no

16     peacekeepers were killed while held by the VRS, it was unnecessary to

17     explore this topic with the witness.  I have a small suggestion regarding

18     how this trial process may be made more efficient through greater

19     reliance on agreed facts.

20             First, what I propose now would have no impact on the need for

21     the Prosecution and Defence to meet regularly to identify matters of fact

22     and law for which there is no dispute between the parties and can

23     appropriately be the subject of an agreement.  This process should

24     continue and the Prosecution always remains available for discussions

25     with the Mladic Defence to identify such facts.  The Defence should not

Page 1104

 1     assume that simply because a fact is perceived as unfavourable to the

 2     Prosecution's case, the Prosecution will not enter into an agreement.  If

 3     the Prosecution believes that a particular fact is truthful, accurate,

 4     and beyond reasonable dispute, the Prosecution will give careful

 5     consideration to stipulating to its accuracy and truthfulness.

 6             The Prosecution proposal relates to the situation that arose

 7     on -- earlier this week with respect to whether peacekeepers had been

 8     killed, and I would like to make the following three points.

 9             First, there may be numerous occasions over the course of this

10     trial that a line of inquiry by the Defence may elicit evidence of facts

11     which the Prosecution does not dispute.  I suspect that it may be more

12     frequent occurrence than its converse.  I also appreciate that the Mladic

13     Defence may only develop its final lines of questioning after hearing a

14     Prosecution witness give its direct evidence.

15             It is my intention to be present at all court hearings, and I

16     undertake to make myself and my colleagues available before court and

17     during breaks to discuss the possibility of agreeing to any facts the

18     Defence may wish to put to a Prosecution witness.  It may be a fact such

19     as we heard in Mr. Harland's evidence, it may be the fact that a witness

20     said a particular thing in a previous statement.  We will also endeavour

21     to be proactive in that if a line of inquiry commences which we are

22     prepared to agree to, we will rise to inform the Defence and the Chamber

23     that the Prosecution agrees to the facts being put to the witness.

24             Second, in order to make effective use of agreed facts, it is

25     necessary to be able to find them easily in the trial record.  If

Page 1105

 1     measures are not taken to make them readily searchable, they are likely

 2     to be difficult to find and, hence, rely on at a later stage of the

 3     trial.  To this end, whenever the Prosecution does agree to a particular

 4     fact during the course of an examination, the Prosecution will use the

 5     word "stipulate" or a variation of it.  This word is defined in Black's

 6     Law Dictionary as:

 7             "An agreement between attorneys that concerns business before a

 8     court and is designed to simplify or shorten litigation."

 9             This word is unlikely to appear in the record related to other

10     matters and will allow everyone working on this case to use the search

11     feature of LiveNote to efficiently find each of these agreements.

12             Finally, I would like to make clear the basis upon which the

13     Prosecution would agree to a fact.  We will apply a two-fold criteria.

14     First, is the fact a matter of dispute or a matter of consequence to the

15     adjudication of this indictment?  If it is not, then the Prosecution will

16     consider whether agreement is appropriate.  Second, are we able to verify

17     that the proposed fact is, in fact, accurate and reliable?  It would be

18     an unfortunate occurrence which could possibly undermine confidence in

19     these proceedings if erroneous facts were allowed to infiltrate the

20     careful and deliberate fact-finding process simply because they were not

21     of apparent consequence to an adjudication of the indictment.

22             Your Honour, that's my submission on agreed facts.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

24             We might not find time to also deal with 65 ter numbers, where I

25     understood you would like to make submissions as well.  We'll find soon a

Page 1106

 1     moment for that.

 2             Mr. Lukic, please consider what Mr. Groome said, as the Chamber

 3     will do.  And if you want to present your position on short notice, then

 4     we would consider that as well in deciding on whether or not we would

 5     adopt and follow these suggestions made by Mr. Groome.

 6             We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

 7     19th of July, in this same courtroom, I.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of

10                           July, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.