Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1107

 1                           Thursday, 19 July 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted into the

11     courtroom, the Defence has one session and a half, and that's the new

12     sessions, that's approximately the one hour and a half, to conclude its

13     cross-examination.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Kingori.  I'd like to remind you

17     that you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave yesterday

18     at the beginning of your testimony, and Mr. Stojanovic will now continue

19     his cross-examination.

20             You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22                           WITNESS:  JOSEPH KINGORI [Resumed]

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel, sir.

25        A.   Good morning, sir.

Page 1108

 1        Q.   We shall proceed from where we broke off yesterday, as we

 2     adjourned.  I would just like you to confirm a fact for me, namely, that

 3     on the 9th of July, 1995, you left Srebrenica and went to the UNPROFOR

 4     base in Potocari; right?

 5        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Upon arriving in Potocari, you did not have any direct perception

 7     anymore in terms of gathering information for your headquarters; right?

 8        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Therefore, at one point in time you made the following decision:

10     Believing that this was justified from a security point of view, you sent

11     to Srebrenica Emir Suljagic, a local interpreter who worked for you.  You

12     sent him to Srebrenica so that he could inform you about what was going

13     on there; right?

14        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

15        Q.   So you personally cannot stand by the information that you

16     provided to north-east headquarters in Tuzla in your reports dated the

17     9th, 10th, and 11th of July, because you could not see any of that

18     yourself; is that correct?

19        A.   That's not correct, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Then I'm going to ask you how you can stand by something that you

21     are writing in your report without having seen it yourself?

22        A.   Your Honour, whatever report we were getting from Emir Suljagic

23     and also any other source that we could get, we could try to verify.  But

24     in our report when we were sending to our headquarters, we used to

25     indicate that it's not confirmed by us, but that does not mean that it

Page 1109

 1     was necessarily wrong or erroneous.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, just a matter as far as the

 3     transcript is concerned.  I read to you what we now find page 2, line 6:

 4     Upon arriving in Potocari, you did not have any direct -- did you then

 5     say perception or did you say reception? - anymore in terms of gathering

 6     information?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But which of the two, please, perception or

 9     reception?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perception.  He could not

11     directly perceive what was going on in Srebrenica because he went to

12     Potocari.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And the answer was:  Yes, that

15     is correct.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Colonel, sir, please go ahead.  You say that you can stand by the

19     reports dated the 9th, 10th, and 11th, although they are not based on

20     your very own direct observation of these things in Srebrenica.  How

21     come?

22        A.   Your Honour, this was based on the knowledge that we knew our

23     interpreter head and the fact that we were hearing also the shells

24     heading towards Srebrenica.  So the only thing maybe that we could have

25     doubted is on the type of weapon that was used.  But as to whether the

Page 1110

 1     rockets, shells, or whatever, went to Srebrenica, at least even ourselves

 2     we could hear, so we knew it was happening.

 3        Q.   In view of this reporting of yours from the shelter in Potocari,

 4     did you inform headquarters that this was unverified information as far

 5     as you personally were concerned?

 6        A.   Your Honour, I would, first of all, seek a clarification on what

 7     you mean by "shelter"?  Because though we were in Potocari, we were not

 8     in a bunker, we were outside.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Having clarified this, could you then please further

10     answer the question.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I am going to repeat this once again.  This is what I'm asking

13     you, Mr. Kingori:  In the information that you provided for the 10th of

14     July to headquarters, did you say that this was unverified information as

15     far as you personally were concerned?

16        A.   Your Honour, information that we were sending to the headquarter

17     and we could not be able to verify ourselves personally, we used to

18     indicate:  Not confirmed by UNMOs, that is, "NCBU."

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at

20     65 ter 04004452, page 3 of the English version and pages 5 and 6 of the

21     B/C/S version.

22             Your Honours, while we're waiting, may I say that this is a

23     report that the headquarters of military observers sent to their

24     headquarters in Zagreb and which has attached the information that

25     Mr. Kingori's team provided for the 9th and 10th of July, 1995.

Page 1111

 1        Q.   Mr. Kingori, your first report which you entitled a current

 2     report from Srebrenica, you say that the shelling of Srebrenica is still

 3     going on, and then you repeat --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please tell us in which paragraph of this

 5     document we find what you're referring to.  Is it the first paragraph?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am moving from paragraph 1 on

 7     page 3 to the second paragraph, where there is a reference to shells,

 8     150-millimetre artillery shells; and then the third paragraph where

 9     there's a reference to shelling of the town of Srebrenica for the 10th of

10     July.

11        Q.   This is what I'm asking you now, Mr. Kingori:  Where can one see

12     anything to the effect that this is information that has not been

13     verified by you as observers, but that this is second-hand information as

14     far as you're concerned, unverified, not confirmed, as you said?

15        A.   Your Honour, let's start with paragraph 1 that you mentioned.  We

16     are talking about over a hundred shells, which we could be able to see or

17     hear passing by.  Secondly, we have also indicated that we got a report

18     from DutchBat, it's indicated there.  And I don't think there's anything

19     else that we require to even put as NCBU, because everything we could be

20     able to hear or get the information from DutchBat and is indicated.  If

21     you go to I think that para that you talked about, this we could be able

22     to count ourselves.  We did not necessarily have to rely on Emir.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kingori, could we move to the second paragraph,

24     which was also brought to your attention, which start reading:

25             "Two heavy shells, probably 155-millimetre artillery shells ..."

Page 1112

 1             Could you tell us what was the source of your knowledge that you

 2     could tell they were 155-millimetre artillery shells?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, this could have come from Emir and I can see

 4     we did not indicate NCBU on that one.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   That's precisely what I wanted to ask you because there is no

 9     reference whatsoever to this being unconfirmed, as you said; however, you

10     said that one of the sources of your knowledge and --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, this is comment.  Please, next

12     question to the witness.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   You said that one of the sources of your information was the

15     counting of shells, or rather, the counting of gun-shots that you could

16     hear in Potocari; right?

17        A.   Yes, Your Honour, that was one way of getting it.

18        Q.   Now I would like us to take a look at a video clip from the

19     Srebrenica trial video that we received from the Prosecution, 65 ter

20     video-clip --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, what do you mean by "Srebrenica

22     trial video"?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a document

24     that we received in segments and that we call -- that we gave a working

25     name, the Srebrenica trial video, and it has a 65 ter number and we dealt

Page 1113

 1     only with particular clip, as the Prosecution did yesterday.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that part of the same video as parts were shown

 3     yesterday?

 4             Mr. Vanderpuye, you're on your feet.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I am on my feet, only

 6     because in respect of the document that is now in e-court, Mr. Stojanovic

 7     asked Colonel Kingori specifically with respect to the sources of

 8     information then informed that report.  He's asked him about the first

 9     three paragraphs and there's a fourth paragraph which speaks directly to

10     the witness's attribution of that information --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you can deal with that in re-examination.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Perhaps I will.  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So, Your Honour, 65 ter is

15     V00044581A.

16        Q.   And I will ask you to take a look at this video-clip.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   You didn't hear any sound, but I'm just going to ask you very

20     briefly, Mr. Kingori.  Shall we agree that this is video footage of the

21     town of Srebrenica on the 10th of July?  You do recognise the area, don't

22     you?

23        A.   Your Honour, I recognise the area.  It's Srebrenica town.

24        Q.   And will we agree that the people who were literally in the town

25     of Srebrenica on the 10th of July were being hit by mortar shells?

Page 1114

 1        A.   I really don't get what you mean because on the video we could

 2     see somebody firing from within to outside with a mortar shell.

 3        Q.   Are you saying that you did not observe that directly and could

 4     not observe that directly because on that day you were already in

 5     Potocari; right?

 6        A.   That's not what I mean.  What I'm saying is from the video one

 7     can see somebody firing to outside, but that we did not hear.  We did not

 8     comment on that.  But when we were in Potocari we could be able to hear

 9     incoming fire, fire that was coming through overhead where we were or

10     coming through another direction but coming in to Srebrenica, that we

11     could be able to count.  But this one we did not hear ourselves.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that there's rather some confusion.  First

13     of all, let's keep matters strict.  You said:  Do you agree with me that

14     this is Srebrenica on the 10th of July?  The witness said:  I recognise

15     the area.

16             Do you know whether it was the 10th of July?

17             THE WITNESS:  I don't know for sure.  I just said I recognised

18     the area.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so therefore the date -- at least this

20     witness - I'm not saying that it's not - that has not been established.

21             Then what exactly now was your question, Mr. Stojanovic?  It was

22     not entirely clear to me, and apparently not also to the witness, so

23     then ...

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask once again.

25        Q.   These detonations, could you hear them in Potocari?

Page 1115

 1        A.   Your Honour, maybe I'm getting lost.  Which detonations?  Because

 2     you have already indicated about two.  I have seen one outgoing.

 3     Initially you were talking about incoming, now which ones are you talking

 4     about, Your Honour?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic is the one who asked the questions.

 6             The initial question, Mr. Stojanovic, you put to the witness,

 7     whether the witness would agree that in the town of Srebrenica on the

 8     10th of July, that people were being hit by mortar shells.  And then the

 9     witness answered:  I'm confused because what I see is not people hit by

10     but I see firing of shells.

11             Now, if we are talking about detonations, are we talking about

12     detonations of shells that were fired into Srebrenica or are we talking

13     about firing of shells, as the witness said he saw on the video, that is,

14     next to this -- what seems to be a gas station, that first we see a plume

15     of smoke and then later, coming closer to it, we see people -- what seems

16     to be mortar -- now, please put a clear question to the witness because

17     the witness is confused about incoming and outgoing shells.

18                           [Defence counsel confer]

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honours, that the

20     entire misunderstanding is due to misinterpretation of the part where my

21     question was not whether people were being hit, but whether there was

22     shooting from that point.  But I think you understand what I'm getting at

23     so I will move on.

24        Q.   I want to put a simple question to you, Mr. Kingori.  You call

25     this outgoing fire and there were four shells that were fired, and we can

Page 1116

 1     see this in this footage - and if necessary we can repeat this once

 2     again - could you hear and register these sounds in Potocari where you

 3     were, yes or no?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I -- whether it was four or not, whether we

 5     have to replay that -- apparently the issue Mr. Stojanovic wants to put

 6     to you is:  Could you hear outgoing fire in Srebrenica from your position

 7     at Potocari?  Could you?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, we could not, and especially bearing

 9     in mind that outgoing could have been going to a different direction, not

10     towards Potocari.  If it is fired towards a different direction, like I

11     suspect now it could have been to the west of Srebrenica, it was

12     difficult for us to hear it from Potocari.  But incoming, because it was

13     coming in and then detonating, it was very easy to hear from Potocari,

14     but this one was detonating elsewhere far, so we could not hear it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  How do you know it was detonating elsewhere?

16             THE WITNESS:  Because obviously if you're firing towards another

17     direction, the detonation will be there, not where you're firing from.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but could you observe in any way in which

19     direction the firing took place, in which direction the shells were

20     fired?

21             THE WITNESS:  It's difficult to determine, but what I'm saying is

22     if it was being fired outside, towards the west or any other direction

23     other than overhead, Potocari, it was difficult for us to hear.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that, but you do not know in which

25     direction firing?

Page 1117

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, you cannot know for sure, but bearing in mind

 2     that these were now Muslims firing towards the Serbs, and we knew the

 3     general direction of the Serbs, is that most likely they could have been

 4     firing a certain direction, so it was difficult for us to hear if it was

 5     not fired overhead Potocari.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  If you

 8     allow me, just brief consultation with my client.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you, Your

14     Honours, for your help.

15        Q.   Mr. Kingori, you saw in this video footage an artillery piece.

16     On the basis of your experience and knowledge, can you tell us what kind

17     of artillery piece this is?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask for the video-clip to

19     be replayed, at least the part when the shells are being fired.  And then

20     if we can also hear the sound, then perhaps they can be counted too.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you for your assistance, Mr. Kingori.  You can see this

24     artillery piece.  If you can, according to your knowledge, can you tell

25     us what sort or what type of artillery this is?

Page 1118

 1        A.   Your Honour, too me this looks like a mortar.

 2        Q.   Would you say that I'm right that it could possibly be an

 3     82-millimetre mortar?

 4        A.   It could be because this is slightly bigger than 60, so it could

 5     be.

 6        Q.   And would you say that I'm right if I say that if we adhere to

 7     the demilitarisation agreement, this kind of artillery piece could not

 8     have possibly in any way whatsoever be in Srebrenica at the time?

 9        A.   Your Honour, depending on the date of this video, it could have

10     been after we had left Srebrenica, and maybe they had even taken their

11     weapons, the heavy weapons from the Bravo Company of the Dutch compound.

12     It's possible.  Anything could have happened.  I don't know when this was

13     taken.

14        Q.   We have information that this footage was taken on the 10th, but

15     that could be irrelative, therefore I'm not going to ask you anything

16     else about this.

17             Now, let me ask you this:  Was UNPROFOR maintaining communication

18     with superior HQ that had surveillance systems that could identify and

19     locate the source of artillery fire, do you know anything about that?

20        A.   Your Honour, I did not.  What I knew was what we were doing

21     ourselves, trying to locate these heavy weapons, but if the use of

22     satellite was ongoing elsewhere, I did not know.  That was not at my

23     level.

24        Q.   If your interpreter, Emir Suljagic, was in Srebrenica and if we

25     are talking about the 10th of July, could he have heard those mortar

Page 1119

 1     shells?

 2        A.   Your Honour, if he was in Potocari, definitely he should have

 3     heard this.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, in the previous episode we learned

 5     incoming fire, detonation upon impact, and the sound of mortars being

 6     fired, that may be different what you can hear and what you cannot hear.

 7     Now, you put a question without making any distinction here.  So would

 8     you please be clear, apart from if he was there and if we are talking,

 9     would he have heard.  That is -- it reminds me of some literature which,

10     ifs and ifs, I mean -- that's a -- that's not asking the witness for

11     knowledge or his personal observations.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due

13     respect, on page 12, line 24 of the transcript, my question was quite

14     clear on the understanding that Mr. Kingori was in Potocari and that he

15     couldn't hear the outgoing fire, but he did that Emir Suljagic was in

16     Srebrenica.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, there's no need to start a debate

18     when I give you guidance.  Please proceed.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.

20        Q.   So my question was:  Could one hear these shots in Srebrenica,

21     where E mir Suljagic was on that day?  Maybe we have a problem with the

22     interpretation again.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The problem that I notice from the answers that

24     were given, sir, is that you asked indeed at page -- line 24, page 12:

25             "If your interpreter was in Srebrenica and if we are talking

Page 1120

 1     about the 10th of July, could he have heard those mortar shells?"

 2             The answer was:

 3             "Your Honour, if he was in Potocari, definitely he should have

 4     heard this."

 5             So the witness is talking about Potocari, your question relates

 6     to Srebrenica, so can you clear that.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely so, Your Honours, and

 8     I just repeated my question:  If Emir Suljagic was in Srebrenica on that

 9     day, could he have heard this outgoing fire in Srebrenica?  And the

10     answer could be either yes or no.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kingori, would you please answer the question,

12     to the extent you're able to do; and if not, please tell us.

13             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, if he was in Srebrenica, as I said

14     earlier, he could have heard that -- that fire.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  He would have heard the sound of --

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of --

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- outgoing mortar fire?

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23             Let's look at document -- but before that, I would like to tender

24     into evidence the report that we used together with this document,

25     65 ter 04452 and this video-clip, which is marked V00044581A, 81.

Page 1121

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  First, with respect to 65 ter 4452, I would note

 5     that this is one of the associated exhibits to the witness's statement,

 6     and I think we had held an abeyance on the determination on the

 7     admissibility of those documents until either at the end of his testimony

 8     or at some other point.  The second is that the video-clip that was

 9     played is part of the trial video in this case which is 65 ter 26123, and

10     it is simply an extraction or an excerpt of that video-tape.  But rather

11     than have all of these things, I think piecemeal, it might be better to

12     admit the trial video, that's also part of the video footage that I

13     played to the witness in direct examination, so that we don't have this

14     all spread out in different places and repeated throughout the evidence

15     in the case.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It might be good that if it's all one video that we

17     have it in one piece and that's always clearly indicated what portion is

18     played at that moment.  If the parties could agree on that, then we'll

19     receive the video in its entirety, but please discuss it briefly --

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But we need a clear indication which part was

22     played to this witness during cross-examination, which part of the trial

23     video, because that is not in the transcript.  You didn't indicate from

24     which part to which part you played this video for the witness.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  What footage -- could you give us the indications of

Page 1122

 1     what was played?  I see on the screen, perhaps I read it, what apparently

 2     was played was from 4 minutes, 43 seconds, to 6 minutes, 20 seconds.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I now read on the screen and apparently

 5     that is what was played.  Yes.

 6             One second, please.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it seems that the parties have already

 9     anticipated in the entirety of the video to be admitted into evidence

10     because the separate portions played are not uploaded as such in e-court.

11     Please sit together with Madam Registrar during one of the next breaks

12     and sort this out in such a way that we never have any problems in

13     understanding what was played from what video and what is in evidence and

14     what is separate or as a whole.

15             Please proceed.

16             We now will look at another portion, which -- is this the portion

17     on the screen which is going to be played or was it the portion that has

18     been played, Mr. Stojanovic?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the

20     footage that we have already played, but we are going to use another

21     portion.  But please allow me to say that concerning this video footage,

22     we're going to discuss this with the Prosecution because there are a

23     number of compilations, but nevertheless we need to agree which ones are

24     going to be used.  Thank you.

25             Let's move on.  Now I'd like to call up document 65 ter --

Page 1123

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But most important for us to know is what portion

 2     will be played now, starting at what time, ending at what time.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, everybody saw the

 4     minutes indication on the screen, it's 4.46 up to 6.02, if I'm not wrong,

 5     so that footage that we had already had an occasion to see.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you apparently are about to play another

 7     portion, apparently you are not what I understand --

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Not at this point.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now have

11     65 ter document 17897, chapter 4, page 2 in English and page 2 in B/C/S.

12     And let us focus on paragraph 3 in English.

13             Your Honours, this is a report compiled by NIOD that precisely

14     addresses the issue on investigating the Srebrenica events.

15        Q.   Mr. Kingori, this is what it says, inter alia, in paragraph 3 --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the counsel please

17     be more precise --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters are asking you to be more precise.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to read more slowly.

20             "They left the base only after the fall of the enclave.  The fact

21     that they sent their interpreter, Emir Suljagic, back to Srebrenica with

22     a Motorola walkie-talkie to count and report on the shell bursts did not

23     leave a good impression ...  some DutchBat soldiers liked to call UNMOs

24     'UNBOs,' standing for 'UN Bunker Observers,' because 'when something had

25     to be observed these people were sitting in the bunkers.'  Two

Page 1124

 1     interpreters also said later that the UNMO hardly ever tried to set foot

 2     outside the door and very much relied on them (the interpreters)."

 3             Now I'm asking you this.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Now my question is:  As far as your engagement is concerned, is

 7     this a summary or is this account correct or not?

 8        A.   This is erroneous for various reasons.  One of them, it's evident

 9     that we did observe when we were in Srebrenica, even when the shelling

10     was ongoing.  We were reporting from Srebrenica before we headed to

11     Potocari.  We wrote everything we did while in Srebrenica on account of

12     what we saw, what we analysed, and we could not have seen and analysed

13     from a bunker.  Secondly, when we left Srebrenica and headed to Potocari,

14     really even when you see in the video, we are not in a bunker, that is

15     not a bunker.  When we were meeting General Ratko Mladic, we were not in

16     a bunker, he didn't come to a bunker; we were outside.  So we could be

17     able to hear missiles, rockets, artillery pieces or weapons, they were

18     being fired overhead.  We could even see them flying overhead.  We could

19     not have done that from a bunker.  So for sure, this is quite erroneous

20     and one-sided, which, to me, it's misleading and maybe that's why you are

21     referring to it.

22             Maybe I can add a third one in that these two interpreters, who

23     are these?  Because the two that we had we were with -- in constant touch

24     with Emir Suljagic, other than Hasan Muhanovic who decided to be -- to

25     stay outside of the UNMO family, but we were with Emir throughout.  And

Page 1125

 1     even when he was reporting from Srebrenica, we are the ones who had sent

 2     him there.  And not everything that we were reporting came from Emir,

 3     most of it came from us, ourselves, in Potocari --

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I would kindly ask that we try and be brief.  I only

 5     put to you what the Dutch Institute had said.  Let's look at the last

 6     sentence in this paragraph where it reads:

 7             "Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans also made a vain attempt to send

 8     them back to Srebrenica:

 9             'When that failed, I sent my own Liaison Officer team.'"

10             My question is:  Do you recall that you had been requested to

11     return to Srebrenica instead of having your interpreters there, yes or

12     no?

13        A.   Your Honour, that question cannot be answered by yes or no.  The

14     answer I can give is, first and foremost, Colonel Karremans was not in

15     charge of us.  He was the DutchBat commander --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kingori --

17             THE WITNESS:  -- secondly --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- whether he is in charge or not, I can ask someone

19     to do something even if I have no competence to do so.  I can ask the

20     local gas station to sell me sugar.  That is not an answer.  You can

21     answer the question whether he requested -- whether you had been

22     requested to return to Srebrenica instead of doing something else.  You

23     can answer that question, whether it was requested.  Whether it was

24     rightly requested, whether there was someone who should not have asked it

25     that, that's another matter, but you can answer that question, please.

Page 1126

 1             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I was in the process of answering.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS:  What I was saying is Colonel Karremans knows very

 4     well there is a time we went back - and is on record - with him from

 5     Potocari to Srebrenica for a meeting with the Muslim leadership.  It is

 6     on record and the sitreps are there and it is in my statement.  We went

 7     there, had a meeting with the Chief of Staff, and went back to Potocari.

 8             Secondly, there is a time we went to Srebrenica with an MSF lady

 9     called Christina and to pick the injured, so obviously we went back to

10     Srebrenica after that.  We were not afraid of going there, and even those

11     two times that we went there, firing was still ongoing, we were not

12     afraid, we were not hiding.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  When you returned to Srebrenica, were you requested

15     to do so; and if so, by whom?

16             THE WITNESS:  There are two occasions, Your Honour.  One is when

17     we went back for a meeting with the --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But were you requested?  You are describing what you

19     did.  The question is about whether you were asked to do something;

20     that's not the same.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  We were requested by

22     Colonel Karremans.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             THE WITNESS:  And we went there for a meeting.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 1127

 1             THE WITNESS:  And it is on record.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS:  The second occasion that we went back was when we

 4     were requested by -- I think Christina, a lady from MSF, and we went back

 5     to pick the injured who were -- the sick who are in the hospital.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So twice you went back, once at the request of

 7     Mr. Karremans and once at the request of Christina.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your

11     permission, can we just ask the witness:

12        Q.   When was it that you returned to Srebrenica in compliance with

13     Colonel Karremans' request?  What was the date and did you make any

14     reference to that in your statement?

15        A.   Your Honour, it's indicated very well that we went back there

16     because there were two issues to discuss, and it is so indicated.  One of

17     them was the ultimatum that had been given --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kingori, could you give the dates.  That's what

19     you were asked to do.

20             THE WITNESS:  The dates, I cannot remember them very well but I

21     think --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

23             THE WITNESS:  I cannot remember them very well.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.

25             Did the two occasions when you returned, are they found in your

Page 1128

 1     statement?  That was the next question.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Some of them are in my earlier -- in my statement

 3     and some of them are in the evidence I've already given before.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Kingori, will you agree with me that between the 9th and the

 7     13th you did not go back to Srebrenica; is that correct?

 8        A.   That is wrong, it's not correct.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  I'm not going to insist on this because

10     this information is contained in your reports.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, no comment.  Questions to the

13     witness.  That is what examination of a witness means.  At a later time

14     you can argue on the basis of other matters.  Please proceed.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to have the NIOD report

16     admitted into evidence, number 17897 according to 65 ter rule.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Objections?  Because the NIOD report -- I think it

18     was chapter 4 only which was, if I'm not mistaken -- do you want to --

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So you don't want the NIOD report but chapter 4 of

21     the NIOD report.

22             Mr. Vanderpuye, any --

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No objection, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection.

25             It's a very lengthy report - isn't it? - or it's many, many

Page 1129

 1     pages.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And we have dealt with one page and nevertheless you

 4     seek to be admitted into evidence the whole chapter?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  If an

 6     instruction is that we can extract only one page from that document, as

 7     we did during the previous examination, we would like this page from

 8     chapter 4 to be given a number and to have it admitted into evidence as

 9     such in order not to overburden.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  With respect to the

12     tendering of the single page, I would object to that because I think it

13     presents, let's say, a distorted picture of what the chapter discusses --

14     because you can see, actually, at the bottom of the page that chapter is

15     beginning to discuss the UNMO's point of view with respect to the issues

16     that Mr. Stojanovic has put to the witness.  And I think to present

17     simply the one page to the exclusion of the rest would distort the

18     record.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't give any -- instructions to come, but one

20     second, please.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The parties are hereby instructed that the party

23     which tenders the document carefully considers what portion of the

24     document we would need, then consult with the other party to see whether

25     the other party considers it's necessary to have for contextualisation a

Page 1130

 1     broader portion.  Then agree on what finally is the selection.  If

 2     there's disagreement, the Chamber will rule on it, but preferably that

 3     you come together and say page this to that, that's what we'd like to

 4     have in evidence.

 5             So we'll reserve a number for the selection still to be made from

 6     chapter 4 of the NIOD report and we hear from the parties what portion

 7     exactly it is that we are requested to admit into evidence.

 8             Madam Registrar, the number reserved for that purpose would

 9     be ...?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  The reserved number would be D20, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D20 is still to be filled in.  We --

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, at this moment I take it that it's the whole of

14     the report still, but it should be reduced.  So D20 will be the number of

15     what is now chapter 4 and what will be reduced to a portion of chapter 4.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC:  [Microphone not activated]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- microphone.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will be careful about the time

21     that I have left.

22        Q.   Now let's go once again through P34, which is your 65 ter

23     statement.  I'd like to have paragraph 135 in English, page 30, in B/C/S

24     page 41.

25             Mr. Kingori, while we're waiting for this document to be

Page 1131

 1     uploaded, I would like just to remind you and ask you the following.  You

 2     say that at one point on the 11th of July you were at a meeting in

 3     Bratunac with Major Nikolic and Colonel Vukovic.  And you think that

 4     Mr. Den Haan was with you on that occasion.  I'd like to ask you this,

 5     although you were asked that same question by the Prosecution, could you

 6     remember which route you took on the 11th of July in order to reach

 7     Bratunac?

 8        A.   Your Honour, I think the route we took was the normal one,

 9     through a place we called Yellow Bridge.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, we had a new schedule, which means

11     one hour, 20 minutes' break.  We'll take that break now.  After the break

12     you have another half an hour.

13             We take a break but could the witness first be escorted out of

14     the courtroom.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll like to see everyone back in 20 minutes from

16     now.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- On resuming at 10.23 a.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

21             Mr. Stojanovic, there was some confusion about the number you

22     mentioned at one moment.  You once mentioned 65 ter 14004452, but we do

23     understand that you want to refer to 65 ter 4452, which is UNMO

24     headquarters BH sector NE daily situation report dated the 10th of July,

25     1995, at 0001, that was on the associated exhibit list, but I do

Page 1132

 1     understand that you wanted to tender that as well.  Therefore, perhaps we

 2     assign a D number.

 3             Madam Registrar, that would receive number ...?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04452 becomes Exhibit D21, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence because if it was on

 6     your associated exhibit list, Mr. Vanderpuye, then I could not imagine

 7     any objections.  D21.

 8             Is there any reason why the witness is not ...

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may continue your

11     cross-examination.  You've got half an hour left.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   Mr. Kingori, if you remember I asked you about a meeting that you

14     attended on the 11th of July in Bratunac.  My question is whether this

15     meeting was held before the NATO bombing of the positions of the Army of

16     Republika Srpska or afterwards, on that particular day?

17        A.   Your Honour, the meeting was held after the bombing.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell the Court, to the best of your

19     knowledge, who was it that guided the NATO air force towards the

20     positions of the VRS?  Whose mandate was this?

21        A.   Your Honour, ourselves, we had just given the grid references of

22     the areas we thought the weapons of the BSA were, but on as to who guided

23     the aircrafts, I do not know.

24        Q.   Will you please tell me whether in your reports to headquarters

25     you provided information about that, namely, that you were at this

Page 1133

 1     meeting in Bratunac on the 11th after the NATO air-strikes?

 2        A.   Your Honour, there was initially a request for a meeting before

 3     the air-strikes and we were told not to go.  We were advised by our

 4     headquarters not to go because we could have been taken as human shields,

 5     but after the air-strikes we were allowed to go because it was now over.

 6     There were no more air-strikes planned.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I did understand the question to be whether you

 8     reported about your presence during that meeting to your headquarters.

 9             Mr. Stojanovic, is that well understood?

10             Then could you please answer that question.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.  I'm going to

12     repeat my question once again.

13        Q.   Did you submit a report --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you've put a question, the witness

15     did not apparently understand the question rightly, I repeated it and I

16     invited the witness to answer the question.

17             Did you report to headquarters your presence during that meeting?

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, we did.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  If you

21     allow me for time-saving purposes, I would like to tender 65 ter 04457,

22     which is on the list of the Prosecution as well, and these are all the

23     summary reports of the mission in Srebrenica for the 11th, and we can see

24     from there whether reports were sent or not.  Having said that, I can

25     move on to my next topic.

Page 1134

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President, no objections.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You said "all the reports."  I see UNMO report dated

 4     the 11th of July, 1995, 0001 hours, which seems to be a three-page

 5     document.  Is that correct, Mr. Stojanovic?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the document,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04457 becomes Exhibit D22, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Kingori, I shall try to deal briefly with your testimony

15     regarding your meeting with General Mladic on the 12th of July.  I just

16     have a few more brief questions in relation to that.  You said that it

17     was in the afternoon.  Now I'm asking you whether this meeting or contact

18     with General Mladic was before, during, or after the arrival of buses in

19     the area of Potocari?

20        A.   Your Honour, the initial meeting was before the arrival of the

21     buses.

22        Q.   In your assessment, how much time had elapsed between these two

23     meetings of yours with General Mladic?

24        A.   I can't exactly say how long, but it was not very long.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Approximately in so many hours, was it one hour,

Page 1135

 1     five hours, thirty minutes, approximately?

 2             THE WITNESS:  For sure it was on and off.  We could briefly meet,

 3     then I would leave, I would come back, we would meet again.  But together

 4     I think we were there for about two or three hours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Stojanovic.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   The separation that you spoke about, did that start before the

 8     buses arrived?

 9        A.   Your Honour, I've spoken about two separations.  Which one does

10     he mean?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the separation which one, Mr. Stojanovic?

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I'm asking you about the first process that you spoke about.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the adult men being separated from the women,

15     the children, and the elderly?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  The

17     second one was when the buses --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we are talking about the first one.

19             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, the first one was done before

20     General Mladic arrived.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Would you care to elaborate on your view of this separation?

23     Before General Mladic arrived and before the buses arrived, where were

24     they taken?  Were they guided in a particular direction?  And how were

25     they separated from this mass of people?  Could you please describe how

Page 1136

 1     you saw that.

 2        A.   Your Honour, the men were being picked one by one from the group

 3     that was outside there and led towards a white house.

 4        Q.   The soldiers who were singling them out, did they walk into the

 5     mass or did they call out their names in front of the white tape that we

 6     saw?

 7        A.   Your Honour, I think I've just answered.  They were being picked

 8     from the mass.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And not by name as I understand.

10             THE WITNESS:  Not by name.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   When did this process start in terms of General Mladic's arrival,

14     how much earlier was that?

15        A.   Your Honour, I can't remember.

16        Q.   The conversation with General Mladic that has to do with your

17     complaint regarding the position of the people in the building that you

18     called the white house, that was not recorded; right?

19        A.   Your Honour, it's difficult for me to answer that.  I don't know

20     why it was not recorded or whether it was recorded at all.  Even what we

21     are seeing, I didn't know everything was recorded.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I appreciate if my colleague

24     perhaps clarify what he means by "recorded," --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 1137

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  -- whether video or written.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It came to my mind as well.  Recording could be

 3     anything, Mr. Stojanovic; that could be audio recorded, that could be

 4     video recorded, but that could also be to write it down on a piece of

 5     paper.  Perhaps with this clarification the witness could tell us whether

 6     he was aware of any audio recording.

 7             Were you, Mr. Kingori?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, for the video recording, we knew it

 9     was going on.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

11             THE WITNESS:  We could see the video people going on.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although I was asking about the audio

13     recording, you have answered the question for the video recording.  You

14     knew that video recording was ongoing, but you were not the ones who were

15     in control of that recording?

16             THE WITNESS:  No, we were not.  It was under the Serbs.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you write it down?

18             THE WITNESS:  No, we did not.  We did not indicate that there was

19     a recording going on.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  What I meant to say was did you put down on

21     paper that conversation for yourself, for example, in your own diary?

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I did.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I did.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a way of recording as well.

Page 1138

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   This is what I'm going to ask you:  Did you see in any one of

 4     your testimonies until now, did you see any kind of video or audio

 5     recording of the conversation you had with General Mladic in respect of

 6     your complaint about the position of people in the building that you

 7     called the white house?

 8        A.   Your Honour, so far I've not seen, but I've seen myself

 9     complaining through one of the interpreters, who was to take the

10     information to General Mladic; and we were following each other after

11     General Mladic and he told him what I had said.

12        Q.   Then I would like to ask for us to view this recording together.

13     It seems to me that what you said just now pertains to the 13th.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

15     view once again V0 0044581A, the time from 158 until 159.35.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Kingori, will we agree that in this footage there is no

19     recording of you telling the interpreter about the situation in the white

20     house?

21        A.   Your Honour, in this record it's not indicated, but I don't think

22     they were filming everything that was being said by everybody.

23        Q.   I'm asking you that precisely because a few moments ago in your

24     answer you said that that had been recorded; that is to say, when you

25     were saying that to the interpreter.  So let us agree that what you said

Page 1139

 1     was not recorded on the 12th of July, 1995; rather, it was on the 13th?

 2        A.   Your Honour, I think even the Honourable President asked me about

 3     the recording, and when I said I put it in my diary, he agreed that it

 4     was also a form of recording.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not the question.  The question is whether in

 6     this footage was just played, whether you see or hear any moment where

 7     your complaints are either communicated to the interpreter or by the

 8     interpreter to Mr. Mladic.  That's the simple question, whether we see it

 9     or -- and/or whether we can hear it here.

10             THE WITNESS:  And, Your Honour, the last question I answered I

11     said:  No.  I did not -- I cannot see it there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   We stopped the video here because I wish to ask you the

15     following.  You said that a young man was interpreting and you identified

16     him as a person who had good English and you identified him during the

17     direct examination by Mr. Vanderpuye.  Is this the young man who is

18     interpreting in this footage and that you see standing next to

19     General Mladic, who is working there as an interpreter?

20        A.   Your Honour, the person I identified as an interpreter was

21     wearing a blue jacket, a blue UN jacket although he was from BSA, so I

22     don't think he is this one.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, can you help us to indicate where

24     you stopped the video, which is the time?  So that we have it on the

25     record which frame you are referring to.

Page 1140

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it was 1.59.35.  That is at least what you

 2     indicated and that is what we saw on the screen, Mr. Stojanovic.  Is --

 3     have we seen all that?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Mr. Kingori, I assure you that the person you described as an

 6     interpreter who was interpreting your conversation with General Mladic

 7     does not exist in this video footage.  And the interpreter who

 8     interpreted that day in General Mladic's communications is the man

 9     standing next to him in this clip.  And could we please continue playing

10     this video footage and then you will see that this person is indeed

11     interpreting.  So can we please go on.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Kingori, we've replayed this for a simple reason.  Let me ask

15     you this:  At any point in time did you see the person that you described

16     as an interpreter with a blue flak jacket, yes or no?

17        A.   Your Honour, I did not see him there, but I did not say he was an

18     interpreter for the BSA.  If you follow through the way I've said about

19     that interpreter, it's somebody I identified outside -- you know, from

20     the BSA side, not necessarily the one who was interpreting for

21     General Ratko Mladic.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you just played what exactly?

23     Please give 65 ter numbers if you have one; and if it is portion of a

24     larger video, give us the exact times you played.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I would like

Page 1141

 1     to tender this.  65 ter V000 -- or rather, 1D0082, according to 65 ter,

 2     that is to say the time from 1.57.00 to 1.59.36.  And the video is

 3     V00044581A.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's the number the Prosecution uses

 5     internally.

 6             Now, please assist me.  The last portion you played you say is

 7     from 1.57 to 1.59.36, that is, 2 minutes and 36 seconds.  Would you

 8     agree, Mr. Stojanovic?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If I look at my screen, we are at 1 minute, 30, and

11     apparently not the whole of this has been played.  So how do you

12     reconcile 1 minute and 30 seconds with two hours -- 2 minutes and 36

13     seconds?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] According to the information

15     that I had and last night, or rather, the night before last, when we

16     worked on this video footage, it runs from 1.57.00 -- I do apologise,

17     1.58.00, 1.58.00 through 1.59.35.  Thank you for your assistance,

18     Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the description in e-court is incorrect.

20     We just looked at 1D00082 for a little bit over 1 minute and 30 seconds,

21     and that is part of the bigger video.  Perhaps if at any moment in the

22     near future you could identify which portion of the bigger video this was

23     so that we have a clear record later on.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I have to insist, I would like to know where

25     you stopped the video and at which point in time we could look at the

Page 1142

 1     still.  That was not the part my honourable colleague put on the record;

 2     it was at a different time.  We need the correct description of that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the still was a couple of seconds before the

 4     end of the video.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was the second still, but we had another one

 6     earlier.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to the

 9     information I received from my colleagues it was stopped at 1.58.35.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That was the first time.  The second time, I think

11     it was close to the end.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The other one is 1.59.30.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then you said you played all of it, so let's

14     look at the last 6 seconds as well.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Mr. Kingori, I will try to be as efficient as possible.

19     According to our investigation, the person that you identified yesterday

20     during the direct examination as the interpreter who interpreted for you

21     and General Mladic was Gajic Ljubodrag.  He's a member of the special

22     brigade of the police, not the army.  He was forcibly mobilised in

23     Serbia.  He testified before the court in Bosnia and Herzegovina and he

24     said that he never carried out any conversation with you and

25     General Mladic on the 12th.  So that is what I am putting to you.

Page 1143

 1             I want to confront you with that in respect of what you've been

 2     telling us so far.  What do you say to that?

 3        A.   Your Honour, that is not the correct position, because as far as

 4     I know - and even on video you are seeing it's him - I was discussing

 5     with him, with that man with a blue flak jacket.  And even after that we

 6     would go together to General Mladic's place, you know, wherever he was,

 7     and he would tell him the same thing.  But that does not mean that he was

 8     the interpreter for the BSA.  I'm not saying that here.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you introduced a lot of assumed

10     facts.  You put them to the witness.  The witness says that it's not

11     correct.  That's where it ends.  The Chamber is, of course, not in any

12     position at this moment to verify whether your information is accurate or

13     not.  Let's move on.  Please proceed.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.  I'm not going to

15     deal with it any longer because we will work on it in other ways.  I will

16     end by putting a few more questions.

17        Q.   You said that at one point in time you informed General Mladic

18     that in the building there were a great many people.  Can you tell the

19     Trial Chamber how many people there were there?  What is your estimate?

20        A.   Your Honour, at that particular moment I did not know how many,

21     but there were definitely over 1.000 people, according to my estimate.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And are you then talking about the premises or the

23     house itself?

24             THE WITNESS:  In the house.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  In the house.

Page 1144

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.  Next question, Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then let us please

 4     take a look at a document, 65 ter 19814.  It was used during the

 5     examination of the previous witness.  Can we have page 40 in English.

 6        Q.   And I am going to ask you to take a look and see what the

 7     representative of Doctors Without Borders said in relation to this

 8     particular information.  So 65 ter document 19814, page 40.  In this

 9     document Ms. Christina Schmitz informs her superiors - and that was on

10     the 12th of July, the day that we are discussing - that 35 men were

11     detained in a house and that they were being treated well.  Can you see

12     this?

13        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I can see that.

14        Q.   Does this have any effect on your estimation that at the time

15     when you talked to General Mladic there were approximately 1.000 men in

16     the house?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I do object to the

19     question because I think it's misleading to the witness.  Mr. Stojanovic

20     hasn't laid a foundation to establish that the house that's reflected

21     here is the house that the witness is discussing in his testimony.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you please try to explore in

23     terms of time and place, et cetera, unless the witness would have already

24     a -- an answer to your question.

25             Mr. Kingori, there was a report about 35 men being guarded in one

Page 1145

 1     house.  Any comment on that or any knowledge of a house in which 35

 2     people were guarded?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, for this particular one, I do not know

 4     which house she was referring to because I know there was several houses

 5     that had people in.  I've talked about that white house.  There was also

 6     another white house where some men were being taken behind and killed,

 7     and maybe Christina had another house that she was talking about.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if you further want to explore the

 9     matter, then please do it in detail as far as time and place is

10     concerned.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   I'm going to ask you again about the 12th of July.  You said that

13     at one point General Mladic conceded to go to the white house and to look

14     at the situation there.  Do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I did.

16        Q.   At your request, was it possible for Mr. Mladic to see at that

17     point that so many people were, indeed, inside the house?

18        A.   Your Honour, it was possible to see, and also he offered to take

19     me there and we did go there together with him.

20        Q.   The interpreter that you mentioned and described earlier, was he

21     with you and General Mladic on that occasion?

22        A.   That I can't remember.

23        Q.   So how could you communicate then?

24        A.   I thought your question was on whether we were with him when we

25     went to the white house, only that I know -- he interpreted in a way that

Page 1146

 1     we understood each other and we went together with General Mladic to the

 2     white house -- to that white house and saw what was happening.  And in

 3     the process whatever was done there is recorded.

 4        Q.   I asked you did you at any point enter the ground floor of the

 5     house?

 6        A.   No, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   How were you then able to estimate the number of the people there

 8     if you didn't enter the house?

 9        A.   Your Honour, we were able to see through the windows and other

10     openings from up there.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you are aware that you have used now

12     35 minutes after the break where I granted 30 minutes.  Could you please

13     wind up.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   I'm going to conclude with this question:  Now, can you tell us,

16     this house that you call the white house, how many windows did it have on

17     the ground floor that enabled you to see inside, to the best of your

18     recollection?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, if you want to communicate with counsel,

20     do it, please, silently and ask counsel to approach you.  So if Mr. Lukic

21     would like to hear what Mr. Mladic says, then he'll come to you I take

22     it.

23             The number of windows, Mr. Kingori.

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I can't remember how many.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, Your Honours, just to

Page 1147

 1     confer for a minute.

 2                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Kingori, this is my last question:  Did you at any point in

 5     time went around the house or did you stay in one place outside the house

 6     by the road?

 7        A.   Your Honour, we managed to go around a bit.  It is only that we

 8     could not go inside, but we managed to go slightly towards one side and

 9     come back, but we could not go inside.  So not mainly from the road

10     alone, no.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kingori.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with this I

13     conclude my cross-examination.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

15             Mr. Vanderpuye, any need to re-examine the witness?

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I don't anticipate it will

17     be very long though.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That --

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I don't anticipate it will be very long.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a relative concept, long or short.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It is, indeed.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  How much minutes would you ...?

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm guessing about 15 minutes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  15 minutes.  Then please proceed.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

Page 1148

 1             If I could have D21 brought up, please, in e-court, it's formerly

 2     65 ter 4452.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours, and

 5     I again need your assistance and instructions.  The document that we used

 6     a minute ago, 65 ter 19814, was admitted into evidence through

 7     Ms. Schmitz.  We are using it again today, and if you believe that I

 8     should also offer it to be admitted, then I think this is a good time to

 9     do so.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  You say admitted through Mr. Smith?

11     Oh, Ms. Schmitz, yes.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Ms. Schmitz, and according to my

13     information it was assigned number D00018.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, is -- if a document is in evidence,

15     it is in evidence.  If another party uses that, it's usually recorded

16     by -- the in-court system.

17             Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, I would just like to clarify.  The

19     document D00018 is 65 ter 25607, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That apparently then is a different number?

21             Please sort it out, Mr. Stojanovic, and we'll hear from you after

22     the break.

23             Mr. Vanderpuye, please proceed.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do so.  Thank you.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 1149

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'll need to go to page 3 in the English,

 2     please, and page 6 in the B/C/S.  I think we've got it here.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 4        Q.   Colonel Kingori, you were shown this document by Mr. Stojanovic

 5     in the cross-examination and asked about a reference in this document

 6     concerning the basis of information that you were receiving from

 7     Srebrenica, in particular whether or not it was indicated in this report.

 8     You were shown paragraphs 1, 2, and 3, and I wanted to direct your

 9     attention to the last paragraph, item number 1.  Can you see that?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I can see it.

11        Q.   It reads:

12             "Info received from one of our yellow cards who is in Srebrenica

13     at the moment and with whom we are in contact with by radio ..."

14             Can you tell us what you mean here by "yellow card" or what is

15     meant by "yellow card"?

16        A.   Your Honour, "yellow card" was used to mean interpreters.

17        Q.   Does this refer to the interpreter Suljagic who you referred to

18     in your cross-examination a few moments ago?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  This is Emir Suljagic.

20        Q.   And would the person or unit receiving this report understand

21     what is meant here by "yellow card"?

22        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

23        Q.   I want to show you another document which is D22.  And when that

24     one comes up we'll need to go to page 2 in the English and page 3, I

25     believe, in the B/C/S.  And what I'd like to do is direct your

Page 1150

 1     attention -- you were asked some questions about a meeting in Bratunac I

 2     believe on the 11th of July.  And what I'd like to do is to first direct

 3     your attention to the bottom of the page in English here where you can

 4     see a reference to a meeting that was attended by an UNMO team.  Now,

 5     first can you explain or do you recall this particular meeting?

 6        A.   Your Honour, this meeting, we went there together with DutchBat

 7     LO team to discuss with BiH and is indicated those -- all those who were

 8     present.

 9        Q.   Where did that meeting occur, if you can recall?

10        A.   Your Honour, this occurred at the PTT building.

11        Q.   That would be in Srebrenica?

12        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Let me refer you to page 3 in the English and page 4 in the B/C/S

14     and we'll take a look at item number 4.  If we go down to the bottom of

15     the page we'll see item number 4, and it reads that:

16             "The BSA requested a meeting with DutchBat and UNMOs in Bratunac.

17     However, this was refused by UNPROFOR HQ.  We are further informed that

18     the aircraft may still execute the strike ... by 1300 hours."

19             This is on the 11th of July, Colonel?

20        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it is.

21        Q.   Is this the meeting in Bratunac that you referred to during the

22     course of your cross-examination?

23        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  This is the one that we did not attend.

24        Q.   Let's take a look at 65 ter 4458, and we'll go to item number 4

25     with respect to that document as well.  Here we can see that it refers to

Page 1151

 1     the ongoing situation as being very tense, and under item number 4 -- or,

 2     rather, [indiscernible] and shells are overflying the DutchBat compound

 3     in Potocari, and so on and so forth.  And we can see under item number 4,

 4     it says:

 5             "UNMOs are still waiting to see if the meeting with the BSA,

 6     planned by the commanding officer of DutchBat to discuss the fate of the

 7     refugees and UNPROFOR personnel will take place.  UNMOs plan to attend if

 8     possible."

 9             What meeting is that?

10        A.   Your Honour, this is the same meeting that had been planned.

11        Q.   Was that the one that was planned to take place in Bratunac?

12        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I will be tendering all of the --

15     these are also among the associated exhibits, but I will be tendering

16     them all.  So I won't offer it this at this time because there are a

17     couple of other documents I'd like to get through first, if that's all

18     right with the Chamber.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'd like if you use any document, I'd like to

20     deal with that immediately.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So I can strike it from my list of associated

23     exhibits because they're not purely associated exhibits anymore.  So now

24     4458, UNMO report, update, date 11 of July.

25             Any objections against admission?

Page 1152

 1             No objections.

 2             Madam Registrar, the number would be ... ?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 4458 becomes Exhibit P37, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             I'd like to show the witness 65 ter 4436.

 7        Q.   In relation to a number of questions that were put to you

 8     concerning your interaction with General Mladic, you were asked whether

 9     or not you recorded these conversations or otherwise noted them or

10     whether they appeared in video.  I do want to ask you about this one in

11     particular.  Under item number 2 it refers to General Mladic giving an

12     assurance that:

13             "... the convoy was acceptable so there should not be any problem

14     with the convoy in Zvornik and Yellow Bridge."

15             Do you recall the context in which this information was

16     communicated to you or your team?

17        A.   Your Honour, this was a communication concerning the UNHCR convoy

18     which had been scheduled to arrive much, much earlier, but was delayed by

19     lack of authority from the BSA to get into the enclave.  But here

20     General Mladic is giving us a -- the consent that it will actually be

21     allowed in.

22        Q.   And did that occur after you had information that the convoy had

23     been stopped, in fact?

24        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

25        Q.   And it was a medical convoy, as indicated in this report?

Page 1153

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  The next para is indicated that it had been

 2     stopped at Kladanj.

 3        Q.   I'd like to take you -- I'd like to draw your attention to item

 4     number 5 in this report, and there you will see that it reads that:

 5             "The number of BiH soldiers that are taken POW," prisoners of

 6     war, "by the BSA is not known yet but General Mladic told the UNMO team

 7     and the commanding officer of DutchBat that the BiH are having several

 8     hundreds of dead soldiers in the area of the Bandera Triangle ..."

 9             Do you recall the in context in which this information was

10     communicated to your team?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  Our team met General Ratko Mladic mainly to

12     ask him about the men who were put in there in the house -- in the white

13     house, and he confirmed to us that those people would be taken as

14     prisoners of war to be exchanged with the others that are on the BSA

15     side -- on the BiH side.  But mainly he also talked about the issue of

16     the soldiers that had been killed in Bandera Triangle.  So he was trying

17     to tell us that there was serious war in the Bandera area.

18        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  I don't have any further questions for you.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would like to tender this document as well,

20     and then move on to the rest of the associated exhibits, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We are -- one second, please.  4436, any objection

22     against admission?

23             Madam Registrar registrar, the number would be ... ?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04436 becomes Exhibit P38, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 1154

 1             Earlier, Mr. Stojanovic, when you suggested that the short

 2     report, 35 men in the house, was already in evidence perhaps under D18.

 3     It is not D18.  It is part of a 75-page document for which the parties

 4     were invited to report what portions of it they would select and would

 5     have admitted into evidence.  And I think we have now three pages --

 6     well, at least three portions indicated by the Prosecution and ten

 7     portions indicated by the Defence.  I think it is part of that, but it

 8     has not yet been assigned numbers.  I think that we need the relevant

 9     portions to be uploaded into e-court so that finally they can be admitted

10     and then will be included in that exhibit.

11             Then we -- I'd like to move to what remains now as associated

12     exhibits.  I take them number by number.  14468, which was initially not

13     on the associated exhibits but has been added to it, any objection?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, as far as the

15     Defence is concerned.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  044 -- then, Madam Registrar, that would be

17     number ...?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 114468, Your Honours?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I was talking about 04469.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  04469.  04469 then receives -- becomes

21     Exhibit P39, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is UNMO daily report, 17th of July, 1995,

23     2300 hours.  Okay.  It's now clear.  It is 4469, and you said it is P39,

24     and is admitted into evidence.

25             Next one, 4471, also added to the associated exhibits, initially

Page 1155

 1     not being listed.

 2             Any objections?

 3             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  [Microphone not activated]

 5             04471 becomes Exhibit P40, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P40 is admitted into evidence.

 7             Then I move on.  I skip all those who have meanwhile been

 8     admitted into evidence.  The next one on my list is 4438.  Any

 9     objections?  UNPROFOR sitrep 5th of July to 6th of July.  No objections.

10             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  4438 becomes Exhibit P41, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             Next one is 4440, "UNMO Report Re: Food Situation Srebrenica,"

14     8th of July.

15             Any objections?  No.

16             Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  4440 becomes Exhibit P42, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

19             4441 is the next one.  No objections.

20             Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  4441 becomes Exhibit P43, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Next one, 4442.  No objections.

24             Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  4442 becomes Exhibit P44, Your Honours.

Page 1156

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It is admitted.

 2             Next one, 4445.

 3             No objections.

 4             Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  4445 becomes Exhibit P45, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted.

 7             4446.  No objections.

 8             Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  4446 becomes Exhibit P46, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             4448, in the absence of objections, Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  4448 becomes Exhibit P47, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted.

14             Next one is 4449.

15             Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  4449 becomes Exhibit P48, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

18             Next one, 4450.

19             Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  44450 [sic] becomes Exhibit P49, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             The next one on my list would be 4459.

23             No objections.

24             Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  4459 becomes Exhibit P50, Your Honours.

Page 1157

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P50 is admitted.

 2             Next one, 4461.

 3             Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  4461 becomes Exhibit P51, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted.

 6             The next one is 15737, "UNMO Report Re: Srebrenica" dated 13th of

 7     July, 0609 hours.

 8             Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  15737 becomes Exhibit P52, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And the last one is the diary of the witness

11     Kingori, dated March to July 1995.  Any objections, Mr. -- no objections.

12             Before we decide on admission of this one, it is a rather lengthy

13     document.

14             Madam Registrar, is there a typewritten version uploaded into

15     e-court or perhaps I should ask Mr. Vanderpuye.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I don't think there is.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And you expect us to --

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, I don't.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to decipher all this?

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, I don't.  And in fact, I don't believe that

21     it's necessary to tender it, so I won't tender that one in the

22     circumstances.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the Defence has used it as well I think

24     or referred to it.

25             Mr. Stojanovic, if the Prosecution does not tender it, although

Page 1158

 1     it was indicated as an associated exhibit, would that -- would that

 2     trigger any need for you to have the document or portions of it in

 3     evidence?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I made reference

 5     to this document and the relevant pages are 13, 17, 23, and 24 in the

 6     B/C/S, and in English these are pages 7, 9, and 12 of those both-sided

 7     pages.  If the Prosecution does not want to have this admitted, and I

 8     confronted all this with what the witness said in terms of what has been

 9     recorded or not, then, once again, with your permission - although we

10     don't need the whole document - I would suggest that we admit only the

11     relevant pages, page 7, 9, and 12 in English, so basically three pages.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What you would have to do is to, first of all,

13     consult with the Prosecution whether for contextualisation the

14     Prosecution would like to add any page if you tender some of the pages.

15     Then all the pages thus selected should be uploaded as a D exhibit.  And

16     then you would tender it once this is done.  We'll then hear from you and

17     then we'll decide on admission, but preferably pages selected by both

18     parties together.

19             Mr. Vanderpuye, you're available for consultation, I take it?

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, absolutely.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is the --

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  There is one document 4439 which may have been

25     overlooked.  I'm not sure if maybe it was admitted through another

Page 1159

 1     witness and that's why.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  4439, let me just have a look.

 3             4439, as far as I'm aware, was admitted as D17.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much.  I missed that.  I

 5     appreciate that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Madam Registrar, could you confirm that 4439 was admitted as D17?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  No, your --

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, D17 was 4392.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we separately now deal with D -- no, with 4439.

14     Apparently I made a mistake, Mr. Vanderpuye.  I apologise for that.

15             4439, any objection?  It is UNMO headquarters sector daily sitrep

16     report dated 7th of July, 1995, 2000 hours.  No objection.

17             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  4439 becomes Exhibit P53, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P53 is admitted into evidence.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kingori, since the Chamber has no further

22     questions for you, this -- unless there's any need, Mr. Stojanovic,

23     whether the questions in re-examination, have they triggered any need for

24     any further questions?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, not on the

Page 1160

 1     basis of the questions put by the Prosecution.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             Mr. Kingori, I would like to thank you very much for coming a

 4     long way to The Hague and having answered all the questions that were put

 5     to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I would wish you a safe

 6     return home again.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We did not strictly follow the one-hour rule.  We

11     take a break now and we'll resume at ten minutes to 12.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 11.29 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 11.55 a.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber made a few errors.  65 ter 4469, which

15     we admitted as P39, was already admitted as D13.  65 ter 4471, which we

16     admitted before the break as P40, was already admitted as D14.  For these

17     reasons, P39 and P40 are vacated hereby.

18             Before the next witness will be called by the Prosecution, I

19     would like to briefly move into private session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1161

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             Could the next witness, Witness RM255, be escorted into the

15     courtroom.

16             Mr. McCloskey, earlier it was indicated that if the Defence would

17     have no objection that you would present the evidence of the next

18     witness, RM255, as a 92 ter witness.  May I take it that -- is there

19     agreement between the parties?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's my understanding there is.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see Mr. Stojanovic is nodding "yes."  Any

22     further matter to be raised at this moment?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.  Just to tell you that he - as

24     you were aware - was originally scheduled as our first witness, so we

25     took the unusual view that we would have him viva voce.  Now that that's

Page 1162

 1     not possible and we're, out of efficiency and effectiveness, we think

 2     that this is the best way to go and with some hope that we may be able to

 3     finish our witnesses this week.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, in view of the fact that the Defence has agreed

 5     to hear the evidence of this witness as a 92 ter witness, the Chamber

 6     allows the Prosecution to present this witness as a 92 ter witness.

 7             One question, perhaps.  Mr. Lukic, last time when we were briefly

 8     discussing the map binder, you said your specialist was not in court.

 9     Are there any objections?  If so, we would not hear them at this moment.

10     If not --

11             MR. LUKIC:  There are objections.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  There are objections.  So P3 remains for the time

13     being as marked for identification.  We'll hear your objections at a

14     later stage.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Good day, Witness.

17             THE WITNESS:  [Microphone not activated]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness RM255, because that's how we will call you

19     during these proceedings.  We'll not use your own name and please take

20     care that -- in giving your answers that you do not reveal your identity

21     either.

22             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

23     solemn declaration.  The text is handed out to you.  I'd like to invite

24     you to make that solemn declaration.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 1163

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Witness RM255.  Please be seated.

 3             Witness RM255, you'll first be examined by Mr. McCloskey.

 4     Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the Prosecution.  You'll find him to your

 5     right.

 6             Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  We would first like to hand the witness the

 8     pseudonym sheet, 28116.  It's a -- I think the best way to ensure that

 9     it's -- the screen is not shown to the audience.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11                           WITNESS: RM255

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

14        Q.   And is that you?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would offer that into evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated]

18             65 ter number being - let me have a look --

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- 28116 --

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  6.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Receives number, Madam Registrar ...?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P54, Your Honours, under seal.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P54 is admitted under seal.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 1164

 1        Q.   And hello, Witness.

 2        A.   Good day.

 3        Q.   I'll begin by reading a short summary - it won't have everything

 4     you've always told us - and then I'll ask you some questions so we can go

 5     over your story.

 6        A.   All right.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  In July 1995 the witness and his family lived in

 8     Srebrenica town.  At that time, the conditions of life in the enclave

 9     were difficult.  Sporadic humanitarian aid resulted in severe food

10     shortages.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  On 11 July 1995, out of fear that they would be

13     killed as a result of constant shelling, the witness and his family,

14     together with the rest of the Muslim population, sought protection at

15     UNPROFOR in Potocari.  The witness's sons did not follow him to

16     Potocari --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Instead --

19        Q.   You don't need to answer me at this point.  This is just me

20     reading, Witness.  Thanks.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The witness's sons did not follow him to

22     Potocari.  Instead, they left through the woods with the Muslim army.  On

23     the night of 11 July, the witness and his family had to spend the night

24     in the open near the Dutch base along with thousands of others from

25     Srebrenica.  On 12 July Serb soldiers arrived in the area and came within

Page 1165

 1     the crowd of Muslims.  The witness recalled VS soldiers providing bread

 2     and water to the people, which he felt was an attempt by the Serbs to

 3     hide their true intentions.  That day buses and trucks arrived and people

 4     boarded them and went to Tuzla.  He and his family were too far in the

 5     back to be able to leave that day.  On the night of 12 July, the people

 6     were very frightened and he could hear screaming as Serb forces took

 7     people away.  On 13 July the witness and his family approached the buses,

 8     but the witness was separated from his family and sent to a nearby house

 9     with other men from Srebrenica.  He stayed in that house for about one

10     hour and was then directed outside and put on a bus with other Muslim men

11     and taken to a school in Bratunac.

12             He and others were placed in a building where he stayed for two

13     nights.  During this time people were beaten and abused by military

14     police and some people were taken from the building and never returned.

15     They were not provided anything to eat, given only small amounts of

16     water, and not allowed to use the toilet facilities.

17             On the 15th, at about 1100 to 1200 hours, he and others were

18     taken out and placed on buses and told they would be transported to

19     Tuzla.  During the drive the witness noticed they were not driving

20     towards Tuzla but instead headed in the direction of Zvornik.  They

21     passed through Zvornik and came to a village he was later told was named

22     Pilica, where he and the others were placed in a building that was either

23     a school or a house of culture.  That night Muslim men were taken outside

24     by soldiers and he could hear sounds of beating and gun-fire and the

25     process lasted through the night.

Page 1166

 1             The next day, the 16th, at around noon, he and some of the others

 2     had their hands tied behind their backs and were loaded onto buses and

 3     driven about 2 and a half kilometres to a large field, where he could

 4     hear gun-fire and was able to see bodies lying in lines on the ground.

 5     He and others were ordered off the bus and taken to the area where the

 6     bodies were and ordered to lie down by the soldiers, whereupon his group

 7     was cut down with gun-fire.  He, however, was not injured and managed to

 8     untie his hands and eventually escape the area later that day.  After

 9     several days, he and another survivor turned themselves into the Serb

10     police and were taken to Bijeljina to a military prison.

11             Finally on 23 December the witness was released.

12             And, Mr. President, I would offer the -- I would, first of all,

13     ask the witness if he was -- managed to last night look at a statement

14     that he gave in May 1996.

15        Q.   Was it read to you last night?

16        A.   I don't know what this reading is.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I explain to the witness.

18             Witness, what Mr. McCloskey just read is a summary of what is in

19     your statement.  Since we'll not go through all of it, quite a lot of

20     details may be missing.  But for the public to be able to follow the

21     proceedings, Mr. McCloskey just briefly summarised what is found in your

22     statement.

23             He now asks you whether yesterday you were able to read or have

24     read to you the statement as you gave it at the time.  Did I understand

25     that you confirmed --

Page 1167

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, read it, all of it, this

 2     statement of mine, and all of it was fine.  No problem.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   And if you were asked questions on those topics today, would your

 5     answers be the same?

 6        A.   Well, I'd say the same, and you can ask me whatever you want, I

 7     mean from that statement of mine.

 8        Q.   And was that statement true and correct to the best of your

 9     knowledge?

10        A.   Every word is correct.  No problem there.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer that exhibit, the 28330, the May

12     25th, 1996, statement to the ICTY.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

14             Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  28330 becomes Exhibit P55, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But, McCloskey, I take it that you wanted to tender

17     it under seal?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, please.  We are currently working on a

19     redacted version as well.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, but the one to be admitted should be under

21     seal.

22             P55 is admitted into evidence under seal.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we do have now a redacted public version,

25     which is 28330.1, which we would also offer.

Page 1168

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I think - but I don't remember exactly - that is to

 2     be filed but not to be admitted in order to avoid that we have everything

 3     double in evidence.  But we'll discuss that later.  At this moment no

 4     decision will be taken on admission.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Now, Witness, do you remember how many times you've testified

 8     about this case here at this Tribunal?

 9        A.   I was here five times.  This is my sixth time, my sixth time.

10        Q.   Okay and -- now I'm going to ask you a few questions about the

11     statement you gave, which the Judges have and have studied.  So do your

12     best to listen to my questions and we'll go forward.  Can you tell us,

13     your two sons that went through the woods with the army, about how old

14     were they when they went through the woods with the army back in July of

15     1995?

16        A.   Well, one could have been about 23, he had just done his military

17     service; and the other one, well, he was born in 1961, so he was 26, 27,

18     I cannot say exactly.

19        Q.   And can you tell us briefly what you have heard of the fate of

20     your sons now?

21        A.   Well, we just heard -- I mean, I guarantee this with my life,

22     that they just went through the woods in order to protect their bare

23     lives.  I can guarantee that neither one of them had a rifle, neither one

24     of them went into the woods with a rifle.  They left as civilians.  The

25     younger one had been called out to dig trenches, whatever, and the other

Page 1169

 1     one had four children.  He went to Zepa, brought food, so he could barely

 2     feed his children.  The aid that arrived in Bratunac -- well, it would

 3     get there, you know, they would pick and choose whatever they wanted, and

 4     what was not for them, then that was sent on to Srebrenica.  So we were

 5     really in a tough situation as far as food was concerned.

 6        Q.   And -- okay.  Have you buried your sons?

 7        A.   Yes.  They found one of them somewhere in Kamenica and the other

 8     one was only 6 kilometres from crossing the line, that is, at Snagovo,

 9     above Zvornik, that's where they found his grave.  I mean, they found the

10     grave, but -- I mean, they even ground their dead bones, so not even all

11     the bones are there.  But I buried what was there.  There are quite a few

12     people who are in two or three graves.  They were trying to hide this

13     using machinery, going to different places in the woods and the

14     mountains, trying to hide all of that.  But people are being found.  This

15     year they buried 500, 520 of them.  And then last year a bit over 5 00.

16     And that's the way it is, every year they dig up these graves, they find

17     them; others haven't been found yet.  In this sad genocidal Srebrenica,

18     that's where it happened.  Many mothers and children suffer there and

19     were buried and their remains --

20        Q.   Okay --

21        A.   -- are being found to this day.  I saw Mladic in Srebrenica then,

22     I saw him.  He was --

23        Q.   Okay, okay --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness RM255, would you please carefully listen to

25     the questions that Mr. McCloskey puts to you.  And if he wants more

Page 1170

 1     information he'll ask for it.  So please focus very much your answers on

 2     what Mr. McCloskey asks, and we have read your statement in detail.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   And, Witness, I want to now take you to 13 July in Potocari that

 8     you talked about in your statement, and you say in that statement that on

 9     the 13th of July your family and you went towards the buses.  Can you

10     tell me who was with you in -- what was your family -- just which family

11     members, briefly?

12        A.   My wife, my daughter, I was there, and then my grandchildren from

13     my older son, and then when we left Potocari there was this roadblock and

14     they would allow, say, only 200 people to pass there or 250 who were

15     supposed to get to Tuzla by bus and that's how we passed that barricade.

16     And then we got to this other one.  Only 50 metres afterwards, there was

17     this other barricade on the road and they were separating men from women

18     and from children.  And they said we just want to put a few questions and

19     then we're going to let you go, and that's how it was.  After one hour,

20     that's how long we were there at that house, this Serb soldier came and

21     said, Does anyone have any money?  And one person said, I have about 100

22     marks.  And he said, Hurry-up, until someone else comes in.  So I

23     wouldn't want to split it with them, so he just put it all in his own

24     pocket, right.  So then --

25        Q.   Okay.  Let me stop you there.  I'm sorry, but let me just go back

Page 1171

 1     a little bit.  You mentioned that as you and your family went to the

 2     second barricade you were separated.  Can you tell us who separated you

 3     from your family?

 4        A.   Karadzic's army, those who were down there.  Karadzic knows that.

 5     He must have ordered that - that's for sure - to do that.  Until Karadzic

 6     arrived -- the next day -- I mean, the next day Karadzic arrived in a van

 7     and that's when they started separating the men and then most of them

 8     were killed.

 9        Q.   Okay let's --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, I take it that you intervene at the

11     right moment so to avoid that the Chamber has to do it again and again.

12     And please keep the witness on track.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

14        Q.   Witness, as his -- the President has said, we need to try to stay

15     specific to my questions, and that will be the best way to get through

16     it.  Remember, they have your statement and know the story.

17             Where were you taken by the soldiers that separated you?

18        A.   They separated us in Potocari and it was the Vuk Karadzic school

19     in Bratunac.

20        Q.   Okay.

21        A.   The primary school.

22        Q.   That wasn't a clear question.  Before you got to the area of the

23     Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac, what place did they take you to in

24     Potocari right after they separated you?

25        A.   Then they separated us into a house and we spent an hour there,

Page 1172

 1     maybe, and then when the house was filled with men, say in an hour, they

 2     said, Come here to the bus.  We sat down and it was off to Bratunac.  We

 3     had to leave our bags outside, the little bit of food we had, and the

 4     rest, whatever.  Then this primary school, that's where we spent another

 5     hour --

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let me stop you there --

 7        A.   -- and then from there --

 8        Q.   Let me stop you there.  I want to just go back to Potocari

 9     briefly.  When you were in this house for an hour in Potocari, did anyone

10     take your name down?

11        A.   No one was writing anything.

12        Q.   Did anyone interview you or ask you questions?

13        A.   No one over there.  They were just asking for money.  As for

14     talks or negotiations, that could not succeed.  A woman came there and

15     she was just moaning, screaming, Genocide, genocide, don't go.  Well, you

16     have to go.  When it's genocide, it's genocide.  They go -- they take

17     people out and they beat them, whatever, and it was basically troops do

18     whatever you please.

19        Q.   Okay.  Okay.  Did you see any of the soldiers or anyone in this

20     house where you were interview anyone or write down anybody's name?

21        A.   Well, I didn't see any of that.  I just told you about the man

22     who was asking for 100 marks.  And up there in Potocari, somebody was

23     talking to IFOR and said Srebrenica is and showed this and then he said,

24     Zepa, and then Gorazde, until the fall or the winter -- well, that's what

25     I heard.  And this other one said, There is this plane going around,

Page 1173

 1     just -- you can just see the lights, going around Srebrenica and then

 2     leaving.  And then this other one said, Well, what do we need anybody

 3     for?  Even America can do nothing to us.  And he threw a hand-grenade,

 4     whatever.

 5        Q.   Remember to listen to my questions and we'll be through very

 6     quickly, but you will have a chance to tell further.  I want to show you

 7     a picture that was shown to you the last time you were here, and it is

 8     28083.  If we could put that up on the screen.  And I also showed this to

 9     you recently.  Do you -- it should come up on your screen.  And we need

10     to blow that up.  And if we look carefully at this, do you remember this

11     photograph and marking on it in the last trial?

12        A.   Well, as far as I can see, this is Bratunac.  This could be the

13     primary school, and then from here where they took us to Vuk Karadzic,

14     over here.  Should I use a pencil to mark all of this for you?

15        Q.   Well, first, before we get to that, we can see - I hope you can

16     see - that there are two small red marks on two different buildings in

17     this photograph that you marked.  Do you remember marking those in your

18     last trial?

19        A.   Well, I do remember, but this could be the elementary school and

20     the other one is the Vuk Karadzic school where we were transferred, this

21     one here and that one here.  I think this is the elementary school.

22        Q.   Okay --

23        A.   One of them definitely is.

24        Q.   Can you see on one of the photographs it looks like there's a big

25     black mark like the ceiling or the roof is caved in?

Page 1174

 1        A.   This one here?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we cannot see what you are pointing at.

 3     Now, could I ask you, two buildings are marked.  The one is a little bit

 4     further down, the other one is a little bit further up to the right.  The

 5     one which is down and more to the left, what is that building?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this is the elementary

 7     school, and this is the Vuk Karadzic.  But they have renamed this school

 8     since.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the Vuk Karadzic school, is that the one a

10     little bit higher up with a smaller red marking than the other one?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this is the Vuk

12     Karadzic school, the smaller of the two.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we use the pointer on the screen so that we

14     assist the witness in -- could you carefully look at where the arrow is

15     at this moment.  Could you tell us, is that the elementary school where

16     the arrow is now?  Can you see it.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the elementary

18     school --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and there is the road, and it is

21     connected to this other school with a corridor or whatever.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We now move to the other school with a

23     pointer, please follow the pointer.  You see the other building now.  Is

24     that the Vuk Karadzic school?

25             Perhaps if the pointer could be moved a bit so that the witness

Page 1175

 1     is better able ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that that is the

 3     elementary school because the Vuk Karadzic is the bigger one.  As well

 4     for this one, it's next to the road.  So we entered this school building

 5     and after an hour we moved to this place where they were killing people

 6     day and night and taking them out.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

 8             After having corrected himself, the witness now points at the

 9     building with a small red marking to the right and higher up as being

10     the - let me now - the elementary school; and the building further down,

11     a larger construction with a slightly red marking as the Vuk Karadzic

12     school.  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28083 becomes Exhibit P56, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P56 is admitted into evidence.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   Now, Witness, I want to take you to the time right after you

20     escape from the execution at this farm where you're able to untie your

21     hands and you get into the woods.  And did you meet some people in the

22     woods that also escaped that you were not able to keep up with?

23        A.   Well, another four men managed to escape and I was a fifth one.

24     So when we came out it was dark, there was moonlight, and we went to the

25     forest and it was pitch dark there.  I was the oldest among them.  They

Page 1176

 1     couldn't wait for me, so I was left alone behind.  It seems that they had

 2     been captured on the way and they ended up in Zvornik, but nobody has

 3     ever heard or seen them.  When I arrived --

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you a question about that.  When you were still

 5     with those four men, did you learn that any -- where any one of them was

 6     from, the village?

 7        A.   I asked one man and he said that he was from Jagodnja, but he

 8     never came.  He's gone.

 9        Q.   And did you see any signs of injuries to any of these four men?

10        A.   One of them had bloody trousers, but I don't know whether it was

11     from his wound or whether it was somebody else's blood.  Since it was

12     dark, I couldn't see whether he was limping or not, but I can say that I

13     saw blood on his trousers.

14        Q.   Now, you've described before and in your statement that at the

15     execution site you remembered a fruit tree.  And have you been back to

16     that execution site in the last few years?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Who took you back?

19        A.   I was taken by a German crew and our crew as well, so I went

20     twice.  They videotaped the site and processed it, took pictures, and so

21     on.

22        Q.   Did you see that fruit tree that you spoke of in your 1996

23     statement?

24        A.   Yes, I saw this fruit tree, only it was bigger, and there's

25     another one that has sprouted from it in this same location.  And there's

Page 1177

 1     a grave nearby where people were executed, from which they later exhumed

 2     the bodies, dragged them somewhere in order to conceal them, so lots of

 3     bodies were crushed, their bones --

 4        Q.   Okay --

 5        A.   -- were crushed and you can find one person in three graves.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now lastly, just yesterday do you recall telling the

 7     investigator and myself that you wanted to tell us something that you've

 8     never told us before?  You mentioned you'd had a vision about

 9     General Mladic and you said something about him being at one of these

10     places.  Now, Witness, the Trial Chamber's not interested in visions, but

11     what can you tell us for sure that you saw in relation to General Mladic

12     and -- you need to make sure about this, it's important.

13        A.   Well, when first people allegedly went to Sarajevo, I saw that

14     they were not tied, their hands were free so that they could take out the

15     money and pay, and then his army --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note we are not familiar with

17     the term that the witness is using.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some were doing the killing and the

19     others were escorting the buses - I'm talking about the soldiers.  So

20     there were only a few of them left who were taking people to the bus.

21     And then when he came, he brought with him 2 metres of white cloth, 2

22     metres of green cloth -- as I could see personally, that man was Mladic,

23     only he was bareheaded and his shirt was unbuttoned and you could see his

24     chest.  And he was carrying those two pieces of cloth.  And then there

25     was a man accompanying him and he had an automatic rifle across his

Page 1178

 1     chest.

 2             He looked like to me exactly like Mladic only he didn't have the

 3     cap that he had in Potocari.  This time he had no cap on his head.  He

 4     gave those two pieces of cloth to two of our men, said, Tear it up into

 5     pieces and tie up your hands yourselves.  And then he left.  And later on

 6     three or four soldiers took us to the buses and one of them hit me with a

 7     rifle-butt.  My hands were tied behind.  I had to bend down.  Nobody

 8     allowed us to look around, but I managed to see that up there in a shade

 9     there was this same man who gave me the cloth, and there were three or

10     four of them all together, but that was Mladic as far as I could judge

11     and as far as I knew him, only he didn't have a cap on his head.  He was

12     red in the face, bareheaded, with an automatic rifle.  So it was him, no

13     question about it, 100 per cent.

14             And I didn't include this in my statement because I couldn't

15     remember everything because I went to terrible fears and frights.  And

16     when the time came for me to make a statement was the time when I came

17     out of the camp.  And I can tell you, the 27 members of my family

18     perished, including my two daughters-in-law, the men-folk from my family,

19     and what can one do except lose one's mind?  And on top of that, when I

20     realised that my sons were missing, that my family was missing in the

21     genocidal Srebrenica, I used to speak very honestly about everything, and

22     I said that boys as young as 15 years were killed and even people over

23     60.  These people are not required for military purposes.  They even

24     killed people up to 80 years of age --

25        Q.   Yes, yes --

Page 1179

 1        A.   -- on the least -- on the year before last an 84-year-old man was

 2     buried.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much for coming here once again.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have nothing further.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             We have this new schedule with shorter hearings.  Who will

 7     cross-examine the witness?  Will it be Mr. Stojanovic?

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, one hour would be in the next ten minutes and we

 9     went on the first session a bit longer.  Would it be a good idea that we

10     take a break now and that you would cross-examine the witness after the

11     break and how much time would you need for that?  How much time would you

12     need for cross-examination?

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Our estimate is that the

14     cross-examination lasts one hour and we have now this new piece of

15     information provided by the witness, so it seems that we shall need one

16     hour and maybe it's best if we went on break now and then continue after

17     that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take the break now.  But perhaps first the

19     witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And we'll resume at five minutes past 1.00.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Perhaps one thing that may help.  I just wanted

25     to be able to tell the Court that it is not the Prosecution's intention

Page 1180

 1     to rely on this most recent evidence related to General Mladic or

 2     Karadzic.  I wanted to bring that out so that you could see that.  I

 3     think we've asked him -- perhaps too much of this witness, but we will

 4     not be relying on that.  We rely on his statement and all the

 5     corroborating evidence in it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, which of course if you said you

 7     would need one hour, would this change your position as to be in need of

 8     more than one hour?  The Prosecution is not going to rely on the last

 9     portion which does not appear in the statement, that is, where the

10     witness said that he recognised Mr. Mladic at a certain moment.  So only

11     on the statement, same for Mr. Karadzic.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I understood

13     Mr. McCloskey correctly, this portion of the evidence will not be

14     admitted into evidence, then in that case I will conclude my

15     cross-examination within an hour and I'm not going to address this issue.

16     And there is a submission about Mr. Mladic's alibi on the relevant date

17     and I wouldn't go into that matter at all.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, to say not to admit, it is of course

19     evidence given, but the Prosecution will not rely on it.  So they'll not

20     invoke that in support of their case.  That's how I understand

21     Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Perhaps we can reach a stipulation of some sort.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps you speak with each other during the

24     break.

25             Mr. Stojanovic, if we would resume at five minutes past 1.00, we

Page 1181

 1     would have left 40 minutes.  If it would be reasonably possible to finish

 2     the cross-examination in those 40 minutes, of course that would enable us

 3     to release the witness, to excuse him further.  But of course if you

 4     really need his time -- the time you indicated, then we have to take a

 5     half an hour more tomorrow morning.  But please try and see to what

 6     extent you could elicit the evidence in the time remaining in the last

 7     session.  We'll resume at five minutes past 1.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, you're on your feet.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, as it seems unlikely that we will be

13     able to begin the evidence of the next witness, may I have the permission

14     to release the Dutch interpreters and the witness for the day?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. GROOME:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That seems to be clear.

18             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

19             Mr. Lukic, when waiting, could you already give us an indication

20     as to if you say you object to the admission of the map of -- the binder

21     of maps?  Is it specific maps or?

22             MR. LUKIC:  All those maps, Your Honours, have drawings, have

23     facts inserted inside them.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  So we wouldn't object if they were only maps, but

Page 1182

 1     obviously every single page is evidence that has to be led through the

 2     witness or introduced somehow, but we cannot agree still because we still

 3     don't know if the facts on the map are correct or not.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any way to find out if, for example, if I saw

 5     some maps of a sniping incident, whether the victim was located at a

 6     certain place, is there any way that you would agree on that or try to

 7     agree on that?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I think that it would ask for much more work we have

 9     to perform to be able to agree on the -- even on the locations of the

10     victims.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we've heard your submissions.

12             Then, Mr. Groome -- but is the witness escorted into the

13     courtroom because that's our priority at this moment.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, perhaps if I could have an opportunity

17     to speak with Mr. Lukic and then we could discuss whether there's a

18     sensible way to proceed.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll then later hear from you.

20             Mr. Lukic, that would also apply for maps of the

21     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps which are -- seem to look as army maps?

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Witness RM255.

24             Witness, you'll be now cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic, who is

25     counsel for Mr. Mladic.  Listen carefully to his questions and try to

Page 1183

 1     answer those questions.

 2             Mr. Stojanovic, you're invited to put as clear as possible

 3     questions to the witness.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, if I understood you correctly, in

 7     1995 you were not militarily engaged; correct?

 8        A.   No, I wasn't.  My sons even didn't have any rifles, let alone me.

 9        Q.   The youngest son of yours that you mentioned here as having gone

10     to dig trenches and fortifications, did he have military assignment in

11     that year?

12        A.   Well, he did have and I think I also had one, but I was not

13     supposed to carry a rifle.  I was just to stand guard and to warn people

14     if it is necessary flee.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [No interpretation] --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the number

17     because of the overlapping.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, there was some overlap.  Could you

19     please --

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will repeat.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have in e-court

23     document Exhibit 28066, according to 65 ter which shows a list of members

24     of the Poznanovic company.

25        Q.   Sir, taking into account the measures that are in place --

Page 1184

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am prepared to

 2     take due care of that.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm just hoping it's not being broadcast at this

 4     point.  It's --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  This document should not be broadcasted and you

 6     should have indicated that already spontaneously, Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  I was duly

 8     careful about this and I wanted to ask the witness without mentioning

 9     anything whatsoever, can -- to tell me just if he can see his son's name

10     on this list.

11        Q.   And of course you don't have to give me any details, numbers,

12     et cetera.  Just tell me if he is there or not?

13        A.   I cannot read it from this distance.  It is possible.  He could

14     have been on a list, but everyone has to defend oneself.  A woman was

15     killed while working the field and there was another person in civilian

16     clothes as well.  Two women were killed from an aircraft.  What kind of

17     aircraft were there?  Who sent them?

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, let's keep it very practical.  Did

20     you want to bring to the attention of the witness the entry on the first

21     page under number 4?  Is that the one you would like him to look at

22     specifically?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.

24     And we're only going to admit this into evidence, so I will not insist on

25     this any further.  We just have to go through the document so that I can

Page 1185

 1     establish a foundation.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then, apart from -- could the witness be shown

 3     the list so that he can read it and not to be shown to the public and

 4     then in his own language, so that is the B/C/S version of it.  Could we

 5     enlarge entry number 4.

 6             Can you read the name there, Witness, under number 4?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you recognise the name of one of your sons and

 9     his year of birth?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  With

13     your permission, we would like to tender into evidence this document

14     marked under 65 ter Rule 28066 under seal.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I was not supposed to stand

16     guard.  I should have waited in my house to be killed and everything

17     else?  My whole family, my wife, my children -- so was I supposed to sit

18     and wait in my house?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no question was yet asked in this respect.

20             Any objection, Mr. McCloskey?

21             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28066 becomes Exhibit D23, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  D23 is admitted into

24     evidence under seal.

25             Mr. Stojanovic, I've not looked at the original, but I take it

Page 1186

 1     that sooner or later you'll explain to us through evidence the date of

 2     this list, because it refers to persons having joined on the 30th of

 3     April, 1992.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will move on.

 5        Q.   Sir, at one point on the 11th of July you decided, along with

 6     your family, to head for the UNPROFOR command in UNPROFOR, do you recall

 7     that?

 8        A.   Of course I do.

 9        Q.   Who told you to go in that direction?

10        A.   Well, I saw that the army was leaving, going away, and IFOR who

11     was there, they also withdrew, so everybody else had to go and move out.

12     And despite the fact that my ancestors and I spent my whole life there,

13     everything was damaged and destroyed.

14        Q.   Did anyone specifically tell you to head for Potocari or was this

15     your personal decision?

16        A.   Well, the shells coming from Zeleni Jadar and Zvijezda, from Caus

17     told us that because they were impacting cross-wise.  So we were told

18     that by the shells.  And the shells do not discriminate between women,

19     children, or whatever.  You have to run because otherwise you won't

20     survive.

21        Q.   Can you please tell me, do you know who told your sons to leave

22     through the forest together with the army?

23        A.   Well, this was also told them by the shells as well as many

24     civilians who had gone through the woods together with the army.  Because

25     the people knew what the Serb army was and they were killing everyone and

Page 1187

 1     swiping them and obliterating them like a fire.

 2        Q.   Do you know if that was a decision made by anyone from either

 3     civilian or military authorities, yes or no?

 4        A.   Well, definitely people headed off because they saw that

 5     Srebrenica was falling.  There were thousands of mothers crying their

 6     eyes out and also children, and they are still crying to this date.

 7        Q.   At the time when you decided to go to Potocari and the men of

 8     military age towards the forest in Jaglic and Susnjar, you didn't see the

 9     Serb army anywhere in front of you; is that correct?

10        A.   Well, I didn't, but I did see them in Potocari.  I saw the Serb

11     army who came later, there were shells falling around --

12        Q.   We'll come to Potocari, sir, later.  We are still talking about

13     Srebrenica and the 11th of July, and we can agree that at the time when

14     you headed for Potocari there was no Serb army?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.  But Srebrenica was on fire.  Shells were

16     falling down.

17        Q.   My next question is, if I understood you correctly, after your

18     arrival at Potocari you spent there two days in total, 11th and 12th, and

19     then you were moved on the 13th?

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.

21        Q.   What I would like to hear from you is this:  On the 13th, if I

22     understand correctly your statement, you were separated and transferred

23     to Bratunac?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I hear that you are already responding when

Page 1188

 1     Mr. Stojanovic is still asking his question.  Interpreters cannot

 2     interpret two persons speaking at the same time.  So please wait until

 3     the question is finished and then answer that question.

 4             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   That first day, the 12th of July, you didn't see any separation

 7     of men; is that correct?

 8        A.   No, I didn't see it on the 11th, but on the 12th I think that

 9     Mladic arrived and negotiations took place.  There was a female who was

10     shouting there, Genocide, genocide.  They couldn't reach any agreement

11     because Mladic wanted to kill a large number of people and let go the

12     rest of them, but our people didn't agree to that and that's how Mladic

13     acted.

14        Q.   How do you know that this was his intention, that he wanted to do

15     that?

16        A.   What else?  He was at the top of this policy, Karadzic,

17     Milosevic, and himself.  They are like three brothers, like triplets,

18     they're all the same.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, to the extent you wanted to

20     establish that the basis of the knowledge of the intent of Mr. Mladic,

21     that there may be no factual basis.  If that would be your point, then

22     it's clear to the Chamber.  Please proceed.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   Did you personally saw General Mladic in Potocari at any point?

25        A.   Yes, I did.  When they were throwing loaves of bread in order to

Page 1189

 1     demonstrate how humane they are and when they were distributing chocolate

 2     to the children and all of that was videotaped, but they did not

 3     videotape how they committed genocide.

 4        Q.   Will you please tell the Chamber if in this statement that was

 5     admitted into evidence that you gave back in 1996, you mentioned that you

 6     saw General Mladic in Potocari?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.  He was in Potocari, definitely, 100 per cent.  And

 8     only after he came the men were separated.

 9        Q.   I'm asking you if you remember - and you said that this statement

10     was read out to you again and that you stand by it in its entirety - in

11     this statement given in 1996, did you ever mention seeing General Mladic

12     in Potocari?

13        A.   I mentioned it, he was there.  I did not say in my statement that

14     he was in Pilica.  I was so shocked.  I -- the number of people who were

15     killed, my sons were killed, I myself -- it's a miracle that I survived

16     all of that, the sheer fear of it.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at this

18     together.  Your Honours, bearing in mind the last answer and the one

19     before that, let us please view another video-clip, 1D00070.  It has to

20     do with footage of Potocari on the 12th of July, 1995.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Sir, were you nearby if you look at this footage now?

24        A.   Yes, I managed to catch a loaf of bread myself.  Yes, I was there

25     and yes it was being recorded.

Page 1190

 1        Q.   Did you see General Mladic at all during those moments?

 2        A.   Yes, Mladic was there.  He was walking around there and the

 3     loaves of bread were being thrown out.

 4        Q.   How far away was he?

 5        A.   Well, maybe 10 metres, and then down here the loaves of bread

 6     were being thrown out and this was being filmed.

 7        Q.   Did he wear a cap then?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did he have a weapon in his hands?

10             Did he wear a cap then?

11        A.   Yes, I've already told you that.

12        Q.   Did he have a weapon at his hands?

13        A.   Yes, yes, on his shoulder, an automatic rifle.

14        Q.   The buses that transported the population, at the moment when

15     this bread was being distributed, had they already arrived?

16        A.   Well, I don't know.  Some people were eating earlier, others

17     later, and then when the bus got there, then it went away.  I mean, I

18     wasn't watching the vehicles out there because they were lower down and

19     then people would take their seats.

20        Q.   When the buses arrived, people were shuffling and they wanted to

21     get onto the buses as soon as possible; right?

22        A.   Well, yes, fear.  They wanted to leave.  It was a question of

23     death and life and they wanted to get out.

24        Q.   That first day you did not get onto the buses because you didn't

25     want to be in that crowd?

Page 1191

 1        A.   No, I left on the 13th.

 2        Q.   You personally did not see any of the killings that occurred on

 3     those two days in Potocari on the 12th and the 13th?

 4        A.   I did not see that, but cries were heard, screams.  When people

 5     would jump up in one area then everybody would jump up out of fear.  Then

 6     we asked the Serb soldiers where was this, and they said a woman had a

 7     baby.  And they were even laughing, they were making fun out of it.  And

 8     that happened about ten times, these screams, this noise.  And after that

 9     you just hear, say ten minutes later, either moaning or cries or -- and

10     then you'd hear a rifle or an automatic rifle or whatever.

11        Q.   I'll move on with my questions.  The next day, the 13th, when did

12     you set out towards the buses, what time of day?

13        A.   I set out perhaps at 9.00, and maybe I got to the bus only at

14     1.00 or 2.00.  It was so crowded.  People were pushing around and you

15     couldn't move.

16        Q.   You will agree with me that there were two obstacles?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   There was one where the people were allowed to go through and the

19     other one where they were being separated?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.

21        Q.   And then this first obstacle or barrier, where they let the

22     people go, do you remember that there were two UN APCs there and they

23     were like a funnel and that is how people were allowed in?

24        A.   Well, maybe.  There were soldiers there that were also blocking

25     the road.  As I passed by, our hands were together like this and then

Page 1192

 1     they would let us go, and then they would actually hold their hands and

 2     they wouldn't let us get through.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at

 4     65 ter 1D00077.  Your Honour, this is an aerial image of the area of

 5     Potocari, the 13th of July, and the time was roughly the one that was

 6     pointed out by the witness.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear

 8     Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I think the interpreters have

10     difficulties hearing.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  I think we've

12     overcome that now.  I would just like us to zoom in on the central part.

13        Q.   Let me ask you this, sir:  Can you recognise the road between

14     Potocari and Srebrenica, or rather, between Bratunac and Srebrenica and

15     the buses that can be seen in this image?  Can you see all of this?

16        A.   Well, if it's this road here ...

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, bearing in mind

18     the fact that we are going to have a problem with identification, I shall

19     go on.  I'm not going to tender this into evidence because already

20     tomorrow we will have an opportunity of having it admitted.  However, may

21     I just tender 65 ter 1D00070 and then I will proceed.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, apparently tendered from the bar

23     table.  Is there any problem as far as you're concerned?

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm apologising.  It's the video we saw, the

Page 1193

 1     distribution of bread.  Any --

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection.

 4             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Video number 1D00070 becomes Exhibit D24,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D24 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   The next thing I wish to ask you is the following.  You said that

11     at one moment you received information to the effect that the people who

12     were being separated would be questioned and then sent on to Tuzla.  Do

13     you remember that?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   At any point in time, were you informed that there was a list of

16     persons who were wanted for having committed war crimes and who were

17     among these masses of people?  Did you hear about any of that?

18        A.   I did hear about that, but that was not investigated.  I mean,

19     you know, you take people to a camp and then you investigate there.  You

20     do not just kill everybody because they're Muslims, you know, you don't

21     do that.

22        Q.   Sir, let us please try to stick to the answers.  I fully

23     understand you and I have every possible respect for the tragedy that you

24     experienced, and I express my full condolences on behalf of the Defence

25     and General Mladic.  But did you see the men being separated?

Page 1194

 1        A.   I didn't see the document but I saw them, who were separating

 2     them.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have

 4     65 ter 17833 in e-court, please, and while we're waiting I wish to say

 5     that this is a document that is entitled:  "List of Persons Who Are

 6     Wanted as War Crimes Suspects."  And I shall quickly move on to my next

 7     question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a man of 80 or 84 is not a

 9     war criminal.  That would not be possible --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's wait and see what the question is.

11             Please put a question to the witness.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   My question, sir:  Did you ever in Potocari or in the school in

14     Bratunac, did you ever see this list in the hands of the Serb soldiers?

15     And I'll move on.

16        A.   Well, they did not bring out a list for me to read; that was

17     their secret.  They were doing one thing and saying another.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

20     tender document 65 ter 17833.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. ...

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I would object.  I don't think this is the

23     witness for this particular document.  This is a genuine document.  There

24     are -- one of the people on our list is -- may be associated with this

25     document, but I don't believe this witness, since he knows nothing about

Page 1195

 1     it, is really the person for this list.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If there's no objection in itself against the

 3     list to be admitted into evidence, then perhaps the parties could sit

 4     together and see under what rule they could have this admitted into

 5     evidence.  But the witness says he had not seen a list although he heard

 6     about it and that seems not to be a very good basis for admission.  But

 7     this is not an attempt to bar anything from being -- becoming in

 8     evidence.

 9             Would the parties agree to sit together and to discuss the matter

10     how to introduce this list, either through another witness or by any

11     other way?  Then I'll not invite --

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We shall certainly

13     agree on this.  I don't think there will be a problem.  Let us deal with

14     this in another one of our cross-examinations of another witness.  So I

15     withdraw my motion to have it admitted into evidence at this moment

16     because we shall be going back to this document many times.

17             May I proceed, Your Honours?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You may, but please keep in mind that we have to

19     finish in a couple of minutes.  I do not know how much time you would

20     still need more.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, unfortunately I

22     did not manage to finish within these 35 or 40 minutes.  I think I need

23     another 15 minutes or so.  I have three more documents and a few more

24     questions related to Pilica, Branjevo, and the process of separation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, although we looked for quite a number of

Page 1196

 1     minutes to video which seemed not much to add, that is, the distribution

 2     of bread about which the witness has testified, but let me ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, if we would try to finish the

 5     evidence -- would you need time for re-examination as matters stand now?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Stojanovic, Madam Registrar is exploring

 8     whether it would be possible to continue for another 15 minutes.  Again,

 9     we need the co-operation of many.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  15 minutes, Mr. Stojanovic, not more.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We'll do our best to

13     finalise this.

14        Q.   Sir, these people who were involved in the separation, what kind

15     of uniforms did they wear?

16        A.   They had multi-coloured clothes, and those who were doing the

17     separation, that was the Serb army.  The ones manning the first

18     barricade, I am not sure whether it was UNPROFOR or the Serb army.

19        Q.   Do you know if there were members of the police or MUP of

20     Republika Srpska?

21        A.   I don't know.  They all wore the same clothes.  I didn't pay too

22     much attention because I was terrified, so I just passed through.

23        Q.   Therefore, you don't know whether those were members of the

24     police or the army; is that correct?

25        A.   I think that they were military because they had camouflage

Page 1197

 1     uniforms.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Are you familiar with these persons Nesib Mandzic,

 3     son of -- Camil, and Avdo Ivanovic?

 4        A.   I don't know anyone called Nesib, but I heard of him.  But I

 5     don't know him.

 6        Q.   Do you know the men or the person called Ibran Mustafic?

 7        A.   I don't know him either.  But I know that this person has died.

 8     I think that at the time he was the president or the chief of Srebrenica.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look now at document

10     1D00084, 65 ter.  While we are waiting to have this document, this is a

11     segment of pages 386 and 387 of the book entitled:  "The Planned Chaos,"

12     written by Ibran Mustafic, who was in Potocari in those days and who

13     describes the separation in the following manner.  Can we have the next

14     page, please.  The last paragraph underlined.

15        Q.   The author of this book says the following:

16             "At that time, a check-point was set up on the little bridge

17     across the Rabin creek manned by Chetniks, several soldiers of the Dutch

18     Battalion, Nesib Mandzic, Ibro Nuhanovic, and Camil, and they were

19     letting people through and separating them.  I knew that they had been in

20     Bratunac negotiating, but I could not believe that I was seeing with my

21     own eyes that several Dutch soldiers, Nesib, Ibro, and Camil were working

22     together with the Chetniks on separating people."

23             I'm asking you, do you remember that somebody from Srebrenica

24     whom you knew and in the presence of the Dutch soldier pointed out to

25     people who should be singled out from the column?

Page 1198

 1        A.   I don't know.  And as for Mustafic who wrote this, he must have

 2     written it under duress because he had been in a camp and he must have

 3     written it as they dictated it to him.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we start interpreting or speculating on the

 5     book, the witness said that he didn't know any of these persons.  Now

 6     apparently you are putting to him what is a description of the role of

 7     those persons, and then you asked the witness whether you remember that

 8     someone from Srebrenica - whom you knew and in the presence of the Dutch

 9     soldiers - which seems to be a clear reference to the persons you

10     mentioned, of which the witness said he doesn't know them.  So therefore

11     I wonder whether you could put a question to the witness which he can

12     answer.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I'm

14     not going to deal with this document any longer.  I will tender it

15     through another witness because we shall have to deal with this matter

16     extensively in the future.

17        Q.   Now, I'd just like to ask you a few more questions.  Can you

18     recall how many buses set off from Bratunac towards Pilica?

19        A.   Seven.

20        Q.   Was anyone driven from the school in Bratunac before you, yes or

21     no?

22        A.   I don't know if they were taken somewhere further, I don't know,

23     but I do know that on that side there were killings going on during day

24     and during night because people were screaming, there were shots.

25        Q.   After you boarded these seven buses, were any people left behind

Page 1199

 1     in the school in Bratunac?

 2        A.   I don't know that, but I don't think so.  There were seven buses

 3     and I think that everybody boarded them.

 4        Q.   When you arrived at the school or the centre in Pilica, did you

 5     from those seven buses enter the school first?

 6        A.   I didn't see anyone.  When we entered Pilica there was -- the bus

 7     stood there for about two hours.  I don't know what they did with the

 8     people living there, but they knew that there was going to be killing and

 9     shooting.  I didn't see anyone because it was already dark.  When we were

10     driven there, there were four pillars in front of the door and I hit one

11     of those pillars because it was too dark.

12        Q.   Sir, can you tell me how many people were on the bus that you

13     were on, roughly speaking?

14        A.   Well, about 50 people, according to the number of seats, and they

15     were mainly all full.

16        Q.   And were all those people from the seven buses put up in the

17     centre in Pilica or the school in Pilica?

18        A.   Yes, they were.

19        Q.   You were driven towards Branjevo on the following day; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   I think that we spent there two nights and one day, and on the

22     third day, whether it was the 16th or the 17th, people were taken out to

23     be killed.

24        Q.   How long did they drive you until you came to a place where the

25     buses stopped?

Page 1200

 1        A.   I don't know exactly.  I cannot tell you that, but I think

 2     between 2 and a half and 3 kilometres.

 3        Q.   How many buses took you from the school to that location?

 4        A.   As far as I know, two buses in each batch.

 5        Q.   Between the place where the bus stopped and the location of the

 6     execution, can you tell us how long you walked?

 7        A.   I would say between 60 and 100 metres.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, interpreters and transcribers need

 9     time, so do not -- take a very little pause between answer and question.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   How big were the groups of people taken off the buses?

12        A.   Between 20 and 25 or 27, so 50 people in two batches were taken

13     out and shot dead.

14        Q.   According to your evidence, there was a total of eight to ten

15     soldiers.  Do you still stand by that statement today?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Inasmuch as you were able to estimate, how many groups were

18     needed to vacate or empty a bus?

19        A.   Well, two groups were taken out and executed.

20        Q.   You described to us how you managed to survive, but I'm asking

21     you this:  Whilst you were still in the place where you fell onto the

22     ground, were you able to estimate the time that elapsed until the next

23     buses arrived?

24        A.   Well, it's 2 and a half kilometres, up to 3 kilometres, as I

25     said, so they came and left immediately.  And then they came and left

Page 1201

 1     immediately.  So they were shooting people next to me.

 2        Q.   At one point after you were wandering around this area you

 3     decided to give yourself up; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you appeared before some policemen that you encountered?

 6        A.   Yes, there were two policemen and a driver when we surrendered

 7     ourselves.

 8        Q.   And you were transferred to the military command in Karakaj; is

 9     that correct?

10        A.   Yes, but they just dropped by in a restaurant owned by a good

11     Serb who gave us food, who gave us drink, who gave us a pack of

12     cigarettes each, and all credit due to him because he was a real good man

13     and I kissed him and I started crying.

14        Q.   And after you reported to the military command, you and a group

15     of other people of Srebrenica were transferred to Batkovic; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   As soon as you arrived at the Batkovici camp, you were recorded

18     by the International Red Cross?

19        A.   Yes, that is correct and that is how it happened.  They

20     registered us immediately.

21        Q.   You were never abused, harassed, or beaten in Batkovici?

22        A.   Well, I personally wasn't, but some people were though.  But as

23     far as I'm concerned, I did not report anything to anyone.  That's how I

24     survived.  But I wasn't beaten, I wasn't maltreated.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I said I would be strict.  You've

Page 1202

 1     one minute left.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

 3        Q.   Five months later you were exchanged in Batkovici; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And my last question, we go back to the 13th.  On the 13th of

 6     July, when you were separated in Potocari, did you at any point see

 7     General Mladic there?

 8        A.   I only saw him when those loaves of bread were thrown out.

 9        Q.   And can you recall -- you said that he had a rifle.  Did he have

10     it in his hand or over his shoulder?

11        A.   He had an automatic rifle over his shoulder.

12        Q.   And I don't know how knowledgeable you are about the weapons, but

13     was that the rifle called Kalashnikov?

14        A.   I'm not very knowledgeable about the weapons, but I do know that

15     that was an automatic weapon.

16        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I really am sorry if I forced you to re-live all

17     these terrible events that you had to go through.

18        A.   Thank you for your understanding, but whatever anyone deserves

19     that should come their way.  There are good Serbs.  I have always

20     maintained that.  But their command was such --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I would first like to hear from

22     Mr. McCloskey whether there are any questions in re-examination.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness RM255, this concludes your testimony.  I'd

Page 1203

 1     like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague.  As it was said

 2     before, it's not the first time and it's a long journey for you.  We

 3     appreciate that you came and that you've answered all the questions that

 4     were put to you by the parties and by the Bench.  And you may -- you are

 5     excused and you may follow the usher.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank you for inviting

 7     me to tell the truth here and to seek justice.  And there can be no

 8     justice without life sentence.  Many, many tears have been shed.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we are not at a point that we would discuss

10     sentencing.  Please follow the usher and have a safe trip return home

11     again.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day.  I would like to thank all

14     those who have assisted us even beyond the time apparently in full

15     understanding of the urgency of concluding the testimony of this witness

16     if possible today.  We will resume tomorrow, Friday, the 20th of July, at

17     9.00 in the morning in this same courtroom, I.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day of

20                           July, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.