Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1204

 1                           Friday, 20 July 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

11             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution calls Mr. Koster

12     to the stand, and may I introduce the Chamber to Mr. Rupert Elderkin who

13     will examine this witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rupert --

15             MR. GROOME:  Elderkin.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Yes, Mr. Elderkin.

17             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. GROOME:  Oh, I'm sorry.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, please.

22             MR. GROOME:  While we're waiting for the witness, could I make

23     one short proposal with respect to the Srebrenica trial video and that's

24     65 ter 26123.  The proposal is the following.  Because of the length of

25     this video it's actually in four parts, and I'm concerned that unless we

Page 1205

 1     identify which part the particular excerpt is that's being played, that

 2     there may be confusion because each part time code starts once again at

 3     0.  If the Chamber were to look at the surrogate sheet 426123, the four

 4     ERN numbers for each part are listed and they are listed in the order

 5     that of -- of the video, so the Prosecution would submit or suggest that

 6     with respect to ERN ending 14, that that's part 1; that part 2 be the ERN

 7     ending in the number 35; part 3 the ERN ending in 16; and part 4 the ERN

 8     ending in 67.  And this way whoever is using the video, if they simply

 9     say the part it, will be clear which video is being used, and Ms. Stewart

10     will upload a different surrogate sheet to reflect this.  Thank you,

11     Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll hear from you at a later moment, Mr. Lukic.

13             Have you discussed this with Mr. Lukic before?

14             MR. GROOME:  I didn't, Your Honour.  To me it seemed to be -- to

15     make practical sense, I didn't think it would be, in light of --

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's purely practical, we would like to hear you.

18             I apologise to you, Mr. Koster, I take it.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

21     Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration, the text of which is

22     handed out to you by the usher.  May I invite you to make that

23     declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             [In English] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

Page 1206

 1     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Koster.  Please be seated.

 3     Mr. Koster, first a preliminary question, in which language would you

 4     like to give your testimony?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to make my statement in

 6     Dutch, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I take it that Dutch interpreters are

 8     there.  I see that there is a Dutch booth as well at this moment.  Since

 9     English and French are the official languages of this Tribunal, the

10     language -- the questions will be put either in these languages or in

11     B/C/S; you may answer the questions in Dutch.

12             Mr. Elderkin, are you ready to examine the witness?

13             MR. ELDERKIN:  Mr. President, Your Honours, good morning.  Yes, I

14     am ready.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             Mr. Koster, you'll first be examined by Mr. Elderkin.

17     Mr. Elderkin is counsel for the Prosecution.

18             You may proceed.

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20                           WITNESS:  EELCO KOSTER

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Examination by Mr. Elderkin:

23        Q.   Good morning to you, Colonel.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   First, could you please say your first and last name.

Page 1207

 1        A.   My first name is Eelco, my surname is Koster.

 2        Q.   Colonel Koster, do you recall being interviewed and providing a

 3     witness statement to the ICTY on the 25th and 26th of September of 1995?

 4        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'd ask please to see 65 ter 28314 on the screen.

 6        Q.   Colonel, this should be your statement coming up on the screen in

 7     front of you.  I'd ask please if we could just see the Dutch first.  We

 8     have three languages for this statement, so I'll show you the English and

 9     B/C/S afterwards.  I don't have a screen on yet, so I need to --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You asked for the Dutch version.  We have it on our

11     screen.

12             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Colonel Koster, is the statement in front of you on the screen

14     the statement that you made in September of 1995?

15        A.   Yes, that's the statement.

16             MR. ELDERKIN:  Please could we see the last page of that

17     statement.

18        Q.   Colonel, looking at that final page of the statement, is that

19     your signature on the page?

20        A.   Yes, that's my signature.  Thank you.

21             MR. ELDERKIN:  And could I also ask that we could be shown the

22     English and B/C/S briefly for those reading in those languages.

23        Q.   Meanwhile, Colonel Koster, have you had the opportunity to read

24     the statement in the last few days?

25        A.   Yes, I've had that opportunity.

Page 1208

 1        Q.   And does the statement truthfully and accurately reflect your

 2     answers during that interview?

 3        A.   Yes, they accurately reflect that.

 4        Q.   And do they truthfully reflect that, those answers as well?

 5        A.   Yes, it's also truthful.

 6        Q.   Would you give the same answers and provide the same information

 7     if you were examined here today and asked the same questions?

 8        A.   Yes, as far as I can remember them properly, and otherwise I

 9     would refer to my statement.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, I'd request the admission of the

11     witness's statement, 65 ter 28314, as his Rule 92 ter statement.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

13             Mr. Stojanovic, you're the one in charge?  Oh, Mr. Petrusic, yes.

14     I'm sorry.  You changed places and -- no objections?

15             Madam Registrar, the number would be ... ?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28314 becomes Exhibit P57, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P57 is admitted into evidence.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  With Your Honour's permission, I'd now like to

20     read a short summary of the witness's evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you explained to Mr. Koster what the purpose of

22     this is?

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  Indeed.  I'll do so again to be clear --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have then we don't have to do it again.  I

25     just wanted to know.

Page 1209

 1             MR. ELDERKIN:  Yes, I did.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  In 1995, Eelco Koster was a Dutch army lieutenant

 4     who served as a DutchBat's logistics officer in the Srebrenica enclave.

 5     On his arrival in January 1995, Koster was informed that there were

 6     already logistical shortages including fuel and rations.  During the

 7     following months DutchBat faced fuel and food shortages.  There was

 8     limited electricity, as the generators required diesel fuel, and leave

 9     requests were refused without reason.  Throughout his time in Srebrenica,

10     Koster also observed the military situation around the enclave or was

11     informed about the situation during staff officers meetings.

12             On the 10th of July, 1995, Koster was among some 30 DutchBat

13     troops ordered to clear the approach route to the DutchBat compound for

14     the fleeing Muslim population and they made a hole in the compound's

15     perimeter fence.  While waiting for the Muslims, Koster could hear firing

16     and shells landing close by.  Koster and others carried one woman into

17     the compound who had shrapnel injuries.  During the 11th to 13th of July,

18     Koster commanded a group of DutchBat soldiers outside the compound.

19     Koster saw the arrival of thousands of refugees, mostly women, children,

20     and elderly men.  During those days, Koster saw scenes including Serbs

21     pushing Muslims towards buses.  He saw some Muslim men sitting in a

22     greyish-white house to the west of the road with personal belongings

23     outside, and he saw DutchBat troops who had been disarmed.

24             On the 12th of July, Koster saw Serb soldiers arriving in

25     Potocari.  Koster saw General Mladic arrive.  Koster spoke with Mladic.

Page 1210

 1     He watched Mladic walking around among the refugees, which was recorded

 2     on video by the Serbs.  Koster told Mladic that DutchBat commander

 3     Karremans wanted to speak to him, but Mladic said that he did not care

 4     about the UN and that he would do as he wanted and that he was now going

 5     to evacuate.  When Koster protested again, Mladic was becoming annoyed

 6     and warned Koster, "If you oppose me, you will be in trouble."  Later

 7     Mladic came up to Koster again and asked if he had seen any Muslim

 8     fighters or knew where they were, to which Koster said that he did not

 9     know and if he had known he would not have told him.

10             On the 13th of July, Serb soldiers again loaded people onto

11     buses.  It was a scorching day and there was chaos with people

12     collapsing, and everyone among the Muslim population looking out for

13     themselves.  Koster investigated a rumour about bodies lying somewhere

14     and went to a location where there were nine bodies with gun-shot wounds

15     in the middle of their backs.  That day Koster saw Mladic driving by in a

16     military jeep more than once.  Koster heard that by about 1900 hours on

17     the 13th of July all the refugees had been taken away.  Koster left

18     Srebrenica with DutchBat on the 21st of July and saw Mladic as the column

19     passed the iron bridge.

20             That concludes my summary, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.

22             MR. ELDERKIN:

23        Q.   Colonel Koster, I now have some additional questions for you.

24     First, please could you tell us briefly what was your current employment?

25        A.   My current employment is with the Royal Dutch Military

Page 1211

 1     Constabulary as deputy director of operations.

 2        Q.   What is your rank today?

 3        A.   My rank is colonel.

 4        Q.   I'd like to ask some background questions concerning the evidence

 5     that I've just summarised and contained in your statement.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we see, please, 65 ter 20005.

 7        Q.   What will be coming up on the screen, Colonel, is a map I'd like

 8     to look at briefly to help put in context the evidence in your statement.

 9     Here --

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  If we could please zoom in towards the lower half

11     of the map.  And just zoom out slightly so we capture the town at the top

12     of the screen right now, please.  Thank you.

13        Q.   So we can see Bratunac towards the top right of the screen, and

14     then along the road running southwards Yellow Bridge, UN Dutch compound,

15     and an arrow towards Srebrenica.  Is this the area to which you were

16     deployed in 1995?

17        A.   Yes, this is the area.

18        Q.   Do you recall anything about the location marked as

19     "Yellow Bridge"?

20        A.   As far as I can remember, Yellow Bridge is the entrance to the

21     enclave which was a check-point we had to pass upon entering and leaving

22     the enclave.

23        Q.   Who held the territory to the north of the Yellow Bridge?

24        A.   That was held by the Bosnian Serbian soldiers.

25        Q.   And to the south of the Yellow Bridge?

Page 1212

 1        A.   The Muslim population was there.

 2        Q.   Can you explain on this map the route by which Muslims were

 3     arriving at Potocari after the July 1995 attack on the Srebrenica

 4     enclave.  If you can do that just by description, that's fine; if you

 5     need to use a marker pen, please say so.

 6        A.   I'll describe it in words.  The Muslim population arrived from

 7     the south from the direction of Srebrenica and went northward to Potocari

 8     and Bratunac.  They came from that direction.

 9             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honour, I'd request to tender this exhibit.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 20005 becomes Exhibit P58, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P68 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed,

13     Mr. Elderkin -- oh, 58, yes, I misspoke.  P58 is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you.

15             Please could we see now 65 ter 17912.

16        Q.   Colonel, we can see from the printed title that this is an

17     overview of Potocari.  Do you recognise the locations here?

18        A.   Yes, I recognise this location.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Elderkin, may I interrupt, please.  I see

20     there are markings on this map.  Were they made by this witness?

21             MR. ELDERKIN:

22        Q.   Colonel, perhaps you could answer the question of the Judge.

23        A.   Yes, these were my own notes that I made.  I also signed the

24     notes.  At the lower left, you'll see my signature.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 1213

 1             MR. ELDERKIN:

 2        Q.   Again, Colonel, if you can describe to us without needing to mark

 3     anything further, could you indicate where is the DutchBat compound on

 4     this image?

 5        A.   The compound is at the bottom centre of the photos, centre of the

 6     photo is the DutchBat compound.

 7        Q.   To clarify, would that be the largest of the buildings we can see

 8     along the left-hand side of the road as we see on the image now?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   And in which direction along the road is Yellow Bridge and

11     Bratunac?

12        A.   Yellow Bridge and Bratunac are in the direction at the bottom of

13     the photograph.

14        Q.   And the markings we can see on the image, could you tell us in

15     turn what they indicate.  First, with the largest of the red boxes.

16        A.   The marking with the largest red square indicates roughly where

17     the refugees were located; and next you'll see a small red marking on the

18     road, and that's the position where four armoured DutchBat vehicles were

19     positioned.

20        Q.   And that would be associated with the writing "4 X APC"; is that

21     correct?

22        A.   Yes, that is indeed correct.

23        Q.   And there is also a line heading from the road towards the right,

24     what does that represent?

25        A.   That line is the route I worked with two fellow soldiers to

Page 1214

 1     investigate whether at the site with the bushes to the right were nine

 2     bodies, and we did indeed find them there.

 3        Q.   Do you recall where a location of a bus compound or bus depot was

 4     when you look at this image?

 5        A.   Yes, as far as I remember the bus depot was in the large red

 6     marked square.

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, I'd request to tender this image.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 17912 becomes Exhibit P59, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P59 is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  And may we see, please, 65 ter 5283.

12        Q.   Now, I certainly have some trouble seeing the writing on here,

13     but this is clearly another marked image.  Colonel, can you tell us

14     whether you can actually read and see the blue lines that appear on here?

15     If not, I'd suggest to proceed with a hard copy of the image.

16        A.   I can see the blue lines easily.

17             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, if they're clear enough to

18     yourselves and everyone else in the courtroom, I'd be happy to proceed

19     with the image on the screen obviously, since that stays in the trial

20     record.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

22             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Colonel, again for orientation, we can see a road running from

24     the top right to the centre bottom of this image.  Can you tell us along

25     that road which direction is Yellow Bridge and Bratunac?

Page 1215

 1        A.   Along this road, Yellow Bridge and Bratunac would be at the top

 2     end of the picture.

 3        Q.   And I'd like to ask you about the markings we can see on here,

 4     starting with the circle towards the top, centre right, and that has the

 5     words "white house" next to it.  What is that location?

 6        A.   That location, as far as I can remember, is the white house where

 7     the Muslim men were gathered.

 8        Q.   When you say where the Muslim men were gathered, who were these

 9     Muslim men and over what period were they gathered there?

10        A.   These Muslim men were the men taken from among the refugees, and

11     that happened around the 12th and 13th of July, as far as I can remember.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Elderkin, before we proceed, I noticed that what

13     you are at this moment show to the witness is, as a matter of fact, a

14     picture which has been rotated, apparently by the usher, and that could

15     lead to confusion if we are talking about the top of the map or east

16     or -- so therefore I suggest that we look at the picture as it was

17     uploaded into e-court, and then we would have to understand, I think, the

18     first answer of the witness to be that Yellow Bridge and Bratunac would

19     be to the right of the map -- of the picture rather than to the top.

20             Mr. Koster, could you please look at it because if we start

21     rotating images then your testimony does not -- is not valid anymore.

22     Could you confirm that as shown now that Yellow Bridge and Bratunac is to

23     the right end of the picture.

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I can confirm that, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 1216

 1             MR. ELDERKIN:  And Your Honour, I think the reference to the

 2     white house is clear enough since the wording appears next to that

 3     marking --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:  -- unless you would like me to confirm that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and that is now at the right edge of this

 7     picture.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:

 9        Q.   Colonel, could you tell us where the white house appears on this

10     image in relation to the DutchBat compound, the one that we saw in the

11     previous aerial image?

12        A.   The white house is located -- well, let me put it differently.

13     The compound is at the lower right of the photograph with respect to the

14     white house.

15        Q.   And there's a marking along the road where I see reference to

16     APCs, that's towards the left-hand edge of the screen as we see it along

17     the road.  Could you tell us what that marking indicates?

18        A.   Yes, absolutely.  That's the position at which the four APCs are

19     positioned.

20        Q.   When were those APCs in position at that location?

21        A.   They were positioned there on July 13th.

22        Q.   Who positioned them there?

23        A.   The APCs were positioned there at my request and the drivers

24     positioned them there.

25        Q.   Why did you decide to position APCs at that location?

Page 1217

 1        A.   I decided to position the APCs there to facilitate security for

 2     the Muslim population and to streamline it.  I positioned the APCs there

 3     as a type of barrier.

 4        Q.   Now, we can see some arrows going diagonally from close to the

 5     APC marking towards the top right of the image.  Please can you tell us

 6     what do they represent?

 7        A.   The arrows mark the route I walked with two fellow soldiers to

 8     the location where we suspected that nine bodies would be found.

 9        Q.   And indeed there is a marking, a line, and the word "bodies" up

10     towards the top right in the uniform green area.  Can you please tell us

11     again what that marking specifically indicates.

12        A.   That's the position where we found nine bodies.

13        Q.   And close to that marking there is a cross in a circle and the

14     letter E.  What does that represent?

15        A.   That marks the spot where we left the road and entered the meadow

16     where the nine bodies were found, and the E means that I was there.

17        Q.   Again, close to that letter E there is a line pointing towards an

18     X and the words "Serb soldier."  Can you tell us what that represents?

19        A.   Yes.  When we left the meadow to report, we were found by a

20     Bosnian Serb soldier at roughly that position and then started speaking

21     on his radio.

22        Q.   And there's also nearby an arrow that does a loop back on itself

23     and that's along what appears to be a roadway or a path heading

24     horizontally towards the right top hand of the screen.  What does that

25     represent?

Page 1218

 1        A.   That line marks the route we selected after the Bosnian Serb

 2     soldier saw us.  We then assumed that this soldier, because he was

 3     speaking into a radio, was reporting and that's why we used a different

 4     route to return to the compound.  When we walked onto that route we were

 5     shot at and we returned, and then we walked back along the route marked

 6     by arrows and went to the compound passed the APCs.  Eventually I stopped

 7     at the APCs and took on my duties.

 8        Q.   I'd like to leave this image on the screen while I briefly cover

 9     some additional detail about the nine bodies that you describe in your

10     statement.  Can you tell us what you saw when you arrived at these

11     bodies; for example, were they grouped together or spread apart?  As best

12     you recall, what was the scene that you saw?

13        A.   When we arrived there we saw nine bodies lying on their stomachs

14     and they were roughly in a line.  The bodies had gun-shot wounds around

15     the middle of the back.

16        Q.   Were the bodies all in the same orientation, the heads at the

17     same end, or mixed in both directions?

18        A.   As far as I can remember, the bodies were roughly all in the same

19     orientation and also roughly in a row, yes.

20        Q.   Again, apart from what you say in your statement, can you recall

21     any additional detail about how you assessed the bodies, specifically any

22     indication that you observed about how long ago they had been killed?

23        A.   I remember once again that the bodies were on their stomachs and

24     were primarily dressed in men's clothes, I mean that they were wearing

25     trousers, and the bodies had gun-shot wounds around the middle of the

Page 1219

 1     back and those injuries seemed recent to me because the blood hadn't

 2     crusted yet.  So it seemed like the bodies had laid there for at most a

 3     half day or a few hours.

 4        Q.   Do you recall any smell?

 5        A.   No.  I didn't smell any strange smell there.

 6        Q.   Were there any weapons nearby or any other indication that these

 7     men could have been soldiers and not civilians?

 8        A.   I did not find any weapons there in those surroundings.  There

 9     were various documents on the ground, and as far as I can remember these

10     men, or at least their bodies, were dressed in civilian clothes.

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, I'd request to tender this document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 5283 becomes Exhibit P60, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P60 is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. ELDERKIN:  May we please see 65 ter 4820.

16        Q.   The title here indicates the image shows Potocari on the 12th of

17     July of 1995 at around 1400 hours.

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, you'll see there are some

19     indications on here added to the aerial image itself, including two large

20     arrows.  These are not relevant to this witness.  This is simply the

21     image that we have in e-court as it is, and I'd ask, with your

22     permission, that we could proceed.  I'll ask the witness simply about the

23     image, not about those additions.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  You may proceed as

25     suggested.  By the way, here you say you have given it a date.  Two

Page 1220

 1     images back there was a date on it as well, but that was the 13th of July

 2     apparently that -- yes, please proceed.

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Colonel, again to orientate the Court to this image, can you see

 5     any part of the DutchBat compound --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  Could I invite both the accused

 7     and Defence counsel, if they want to communicate, to do it at such a

 8     level of voice that it doesn't disturb the Chamber in hearing the

 9     evidence.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. ELDERKIN:

12        Q.   Colonel, to orientate us, can you see any part of the DutchBat

13     compound in this picture?

14        A.   The DutchBat compound is at the lower right of the photograph.

15        Q.   And again, which direction on this image is Bratunac and

16     Yellow Bridge?

17        A.   Yellow Bridge and Bratunac are also situated at the lower right

18     of the photograph.

19        Q.   Can you see the bus depot here?

20        A.   Yes.  The bus depot is at the centre and bottom left of the

21     photograph.

22        Q.   Now, can you please look along the road in the image.  Do you

23     recall the general scene on that road when you were in Potocari on the

24     afternoon of 12th of July, 1995?

25        A.   Yes.  That's the road proceeding to the top left, it's the road

Page 1221

 1     along which the refugees came in the direction of Potocari, that's that

 2     road, yes.

 3        Q.   And where the indication in the centre of the image says

 4     "People," can you tell us what you see on the road and particularly what

 5     you recall seeing on that day in 1995?

 6        A.   That is the location where we sent the -- our red-and-white band

 7     to mark the point up to where the civilian population could proceed

 8     further on safety, and as far as I can see there are indeed a lot of

 9     refugees around that point.

10        Q.   Where were you personally positioned during the course of that

11     afternoon?

12        A.   I was in various positions around the bus depot in the centre of

13     the photograph, but most of the time I was at the spot where I indicated

14     the red-and-white band was, where you see the "People" marking.

15        Q.   And according to your statement, you had several encounters with

16     General Mladic on the 12th of July.  Do you recall where those encounters

17     took place?

18        A.   Yes, I recall that.  That's at the position indicated and marked

19     as "People" and it was on the road, in that area.

20             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, I'd request to tender this exhibit,

21     please.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar -- oh, Mr. Petrusic, you're on your

23     feet.

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence does

25     not object to the admission of this document, but we wish to know who it

Page 1222

 1     was that introduced changes --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters cannot here the speaker.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You -- the interpreters were unable to hear the last

 4     part of what you said.  You asked who made the changes and ...

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Precisely.  That was my question,

 6     this intervention, who introduced these changes as far as the photographs

 7     are concerned?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You mean the markings "People," "Trucks," yes.

 9             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether I have to ask this to

11     Mr. Koster or -- Mr. Koster, if you know who made -- put the text into

12     this, if you know, please tell us; otherwise, we'll ask Mr. Elderkin.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no idea, Your Honour.  In

14     any case, I didn't position them there.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Elderkin.

16             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, the image was provided to us from a

17     Rule 70 provider with all of the text in -- the black text in the white

18     boxes is how we received the images.  I understand, but I would have to

19     confirm if it's a point of contention, that the two arrows on the image

20     were added by one of the OTP investigators for purposes of presentation.

21     But as I said in the beginning --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But you said the Prosecution will not rely on the

23     red arrows.  We have not heard what they mean.  You received the document

24     in this format?

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  Exactly -- as we have seen with the preceding

Page 1223

 1     aerial image as well.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Mr. Petrusic, I also heard you say that there's no objection

 4     against admission.

 5             Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 4820 becomes Exhibit P61, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P61 is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  If I may proceed?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  May we see, please, 65 ter 6189.  This is similar

11     to the last image and again the title indicates that the image shows

12     Potocari, this time on the 13th of July, 1995, again at around 1400

13     hours.

14        Q.   Again for orientation, Colonel, can you please tell us if you can

15     identify the DutchBat compound on this image?

16        A.   The DutchBat compound is situated at the bottom left of the

17     photograph.

18        Q.   Again, looking along the road that we see in the image, does the

19     general scene portrayed here from the air correspond with what you

20     observed when you were present in Potocari on the 13th of July, 1995?

21        A.   As far as I could see from my position, yes, it does correspond.

22        Q.   Were there people present along the road on the 13th July 1995,

23     any crowds of people or groups of people, that you observed when you were

24     there?

25        A.   I saw a great many Muslim refugees along the road, and from the

Page 1224

 1     barrier we set up with the four APCs they were proceeding to the buses,

 2     and I also saw Bosnian Serb soldiers along the road as well.

 3        Q.   Can you identify the location of the barrier on the road on the

 4     13th of July?

 5        A.   Yes, the barrier is located along the road at the upper end where

 6     the vehicles on the road are located, and perhaps it might be convenient

 7     if I indicated them with a marker.

 8        Q.   That would be very helpful.

 9             MR. ELDERKIN:  If I could ask for the court usher's assistance.

10     Can I ask that we have the markings set up in a red pen so that they are

11     distinct for this trial.  Hopefully it may avoid some confusion.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  In general, any markings made at the request of the

13     Prosecution will be marked in red, whereas any marking made at the

14     request of the Defence will be made in blue.

15             MR. ELDERKIN:

16        Q.   Colonel, if I could ask you using the pen to first mark a line

17     where, as best you recall, there was a barrier across the road.

18        A.   The barrier was about there and that was the barrier with the

19     APCs.

20        Q.   And that's the horizontal line you've drawn across the road; is

21     that correct?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   And if we could continue with the pen and ask for a further

24     marking which would be to identify if he can say where was the crowd of

25     people that you observed.  Can you place a circle around the general

Page 1225

 1     area.

 2        A.   That's the area where I saw the people, both behind the barrier

 3     and around the buses.

 4        Q.   And those are the only markings I'd ask from the witness for this

 5     image.  I'd ask if we could have that admitted as a marked in-court

 6     exhibit, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6189 marked by the witness becomes

 9     Exhibit P62, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P62 is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. ELDERKIN:

12        Q.   Colonel, was the barrier across the road in the same position on

13     the 13th of July as on the 12th of July?

14        A.   I issued instructions on the morning of July 13th to take up

15     positions with the APCs there.

16        Q.   I'm finished with that exhibit.  I'd now like to start using some

17     short sections of the trial compilation video of Srebrenica.  They're

18     very short --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin, sorry for interrupting you.  The

20     last question was not properly answered.  You asked if the barrier was at

21     the same position as the day before; this is not answered.  You should

22     ask the witness again.

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Judge.

24        Q.   Colonel, perhaps you could explain if the barrier was indeed in

25     the same position when you put it up on the 13th of July or was it in a

Page 1226

 1     different position, as compared with the 12th of July.

 2        A.   As far as I can remember, on July 12th I didn't have such a

 3     barrier involving vehicles set up, I had that done on July 13th.  So on

 4     July 12th, as far as I can remember, these vehicles were not yet in this

 5     position.

 6        Q.   And the location of the red-and-white tape across the road in the

 7     12th compared to the position of the vehicles in the 13th, were those the

 8     same positions or was the tape at a different location?

 9        A.   The red-and-white tape was at a different position.

10        Q.   And was that closer towards the DutchBat compound compared to the

11     vehicles, as we see on the 13th, or further away from the DutchBat

12     compound?

13        A.   No.  The red-and-white tape was further away from the compound

14     and roughly at the top of the circle marking I placed on the photograph.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. ELDERKIN:  I see we have perhaps five minutes left before the

17     first scheduled break and the first video clip I would play is less than

18     a minute long, so I'll proceed until we run out of time.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

20             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'd like to see from 65 ter 26123 and from part 1

21     of the compilation, which is ERN V0009014, a video starting at 14

22     minutes, 59 seconds, through to 15 minutes, 31 seconds.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. ELDERKIN:

25        Q.   Colonel, do you recall scenes like this as we've just seen on

Page 1227

 1     that sequence of video?

 2        A.   Yes, indeed.  Such trucks completely loaded with refugees and

 3     wounded refugees did pass my position.

 4        Q.   Where was your position around that time on the 11th of July?

 5        A.   At the time my position was outside the compound in the area of

 6     the former bus station, and these vehicles rode passed this bus station

 7     to reach the compound.

 8        Q.   Where were these people coming from?

 9        A.   These people came from the direction of Srebrenica.

10        Q.   The next clip is from part 2 of the compilation and it's --

11     that's V0009035 from 17 minutes, 57 seconds, through to 19 minutes, 7

12     seconds.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We can play it, but then we have no further time for

14     questions.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Elderkin, unless it would be one very short

17     question, but if there are more questions then we will -- they can be put

18     to the witness after the break.

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  They can all wait until after.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you already follow the usher who will

21     escort you out of the courtroom.  We will take a break of 20 minutes.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Elderkin, are you on track as far as time is

24     concerned?

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'll finish within the 90 minutes total that we

Page 1228

 1     indicated for this witness, yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we take a break and we resume at 20

 3     minutes passed 10.00, and could I invite everyone to be ready at 20

 4     minutes passed 10.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.01 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.21 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Elderkin, if you're ready, please proceed.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:

11        Q.   Colonel, we finished just before the break with that short

12     section of video, showing scene around soldiers, crowd, some UN blue

13     helmets in Potocari.  Were you in the area we saw in the video on the

14     12th of July?

15        A.   Yes, I was in that area.

16        Q.   Did you see these kinds of scenes?

17        A.   Yes, I saw these scenes.

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we please see from 19 minutes, 47 [Realtime

19     transcript read in error, "57"] seconds, and pausing at 19 minutes, 55

20     seconds.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Elderkin, as it reads on the transcript you are

22     moving backwards in time.

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  And it should read, Your Honour, 19 minutes, 47

24     seconds to 19.55.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 1229

 1             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you for observing that.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  And we're paused at 19 minutes, 55.1 according to

 4     the counter.

 5        Q.   Can you identify the man in the blue helmet who has just walked

 6     on to the centre of the screen?

 7        A.   Yes, I can.  I'm that person.

 8        Q.   Could we please see from exactly 24 minutes and then pause at 24

 9     minutes, 23 seconds.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  And we have paused at 24 minutes, 23.8 seconds

12     according to the counter on the screen.

13        Q.   Colonel, can you identify the people on the screen, starting from

14     the blue helmet on the left?

15        A.   Yes.  The person wearing the blue helmet at the left of the

16     photograph is me, then the second person wearing a blue helmet is the

17     United Nations military observer, the UNMO.  The gentleman -- I don't

18     recognise the gentleman in the centre wearing glasses, and the man at the

19     right of the photograph, I know him as Mladic.

20        Q.   Do you recall what is going on here?

21        A.   Yes.  This is one of the moments that I'm talking to Mladic.

22             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we carry on playing, please, through to 24

23     minutes and 50 seconds.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. ELDERKIN:

Page 1230

 1        Q.   Colonel, did you remain in the area while General Mladic was

 2     talking to Muslims in the crowd at Potocari?

 3        A.   Yes, I remained at that location.  I was not consistently close

 4     to Mladic's position.  Sometimes I reported about the position of

 5     DutchBat and I tried to converse with Mladic at multiple occasions.

 6        Q.   What did you see General Mladic doing while you saw him around

 7     the Muslims in Potocari on that day?

 8        A.   I saw him talking to the Muslims.  I saw him soothing children by

 9     touching them and patting them, and I saw him doing things like that.

10        Q.   Who was with General Mladic when you saw him around Potocari?

11        A.   There were -- there is Bosnian Serb soldiers around Mladic,

12     including one or two body-guards.

13        Q.   Did you see the video cameraman who would have made this footage

14     or any other footage from Potocari?

15        A.   Yes, I did indeed see camera people recording videos there.

16        Q.   Do you recall that they were dressed as civilians or soldiers?

17        A.   I apologise, I can't remember that.

18        Q.   Did you see General Mladic speak to any of the Bosnian Serb

19     soldiers around him?

20        A.   At the moment that I'm talking with General Mladic, I did see him

21     talking in the direction of Bosnian Serb soldiers.

22        Q.   And just a reference to the previous aerial images we were

23     looking at, does the location we've seen in this sequence of video

24     correspond with the aerial image we saw of Potocari taken at around 1400

25     hours on the 12th of July?

Page 1231

 1        A.   As far as I'm concerned, yes, that was in the area of the

 2     red-and-white tape.

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we please now see part 3 of the compilation

 4     video, which is ERN V0009016, and that's starting first extract at 2

 5     minutes, 43 seconds, through to 3 minutes, 30 seconds, please.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:

 8        Q.   Colonel, do you recall seeing these kinds of scenes when you were

 9     out on the road in Potocari on the 13th of July?

10        A.   Yes, I do.  I saw such scenes of Muslims at several points,

11     Muslims being directed to the vehicles.

12             MR. ELDERKIN:  Can we see, please, from 5 minutes, 42 seconds,

13     pausing at 5 minutes, 46 seconds.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. ELDERKIN:

16        Q.   Colonel, did you see any instances of men being separated from

17     the rest of the crowd during either the 12th or the 13th of July in

18     Potocari?

19        A.   Yes, I did indeed see that, and where we were able to prevent it

20     we tried get the Muslim men back in the flow of refugees, and I did so

21     myself as well.

22        Q.   Do you recall any specific detail about your own attempts to try

23     to prevent separations?

24        A.   Yes, at a certain point I respond to yelling by a young man, who

25     was being removed from the flow of refugees by two or three Bosnian Serb

Page 1232

 1     soldiers.  His mother was there and was protesting, and I went there and

 2     tried to get the boy back into the flow of refugees.  Together with his

 3     mother at first I didn't succeed, but I continued urging and based on my

 4     rank they let the boy go, they released him, and I was able to direct him

 5     back into the flow of refugees so that he was able to board the buses and

 6     trucks.

 7        Q.   How old did he seem to be to you, if you recall?

 8        A.   I think that young man would have been about 15 or 16 years old,

 9     around that age.

10        Q.   Did you or any of the DutchBat soldiers under your command take

11     part in the process of separating men from the crowd?

12        A.   No, we did not do that.

13        Q.   Who was doing the separations?

14        A.   As far as I was able to see, the men were separated from the

15     refugees by Bosnian Serb soldiers.

16             MR. ELDERKIN:  Please could we see from 6 minutes and 8 seconds,

17     pausing at 6 minutes and 16 seconds.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  We're paused at 6 minutes, 16.4 seconds according

20     to the counter on the screen.

21        Q.   Can you tell us who is the man in the middle wearing the blue

22     flak jacket?

23        A.   Yes, the man wearing the blue flak jacket, I recognise him as

24     Mickey, who together with the man at the left of the screen was basically

25     in command on site.  They issued all kinds of instructions.

Page 1233

 1        Q.   Which organisation do you understand this man to be part of?  Was

 2     he DutchBat?  Bosnian Muslim?  Bosnian Serb?

 3        A.   No, the man wearing the blue flak jacket in the centre of the

 4     photograph was part of the Bosnian Serb soldiers, as far as I'm concerned

 5     [as interpreted].

 6        Q.   And the man in the beret on the right of the screen, who is he?

 7        A.   I recognise him as a fellow soldier, van Duijn of DutchBat.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  Can we please carry on to 6 minutes, 31, and pause

 9     there.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  And we're paused at 6 minutes, 31.3 seconds

12     according to the counter on the screen.

13        Q.   This is to give us a clearer view of the man you mentioned to be

14     known to you as Mane.  You confirm now seeing him face on the screen that

15     is the man you recall as Mane?

16        A.   I do, indeed, recognise that man as being named Mane.

17        Q.   And to be clear, again, which organisation was he part of?

18        A.   He pertained to the Bosnian Serb soldiers.

19        Q.   Final clip I'd like to show you, please, is from 10 minutes, 21

20     seconds, through to 10 minutes, 54 seconds.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. ELDERKIN:

23        Q.   Colonel, do you recognise this location?

24        A.   I recognise this location as the location I designated as the

25     white house where the Muslim men from the population were gathered.

Page 1234

 1        Q.   Did you see this location personally during the 12th or 13th of

 2     July?

 3        A.   Yes, I was there on one of the days, not at the actual house but

 4     I was nearby.  And at the time I saw men sitting on the ground against

 5     the house.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much, Colonel.  And in your statement you referred

 7     to seeing Mladic in Potocari on the 13th of July.  Can you tell us how

 8     you saw him, where you saw him, if you recall?

 9        A.   As far as I recall, I saw Mladic riding passed there in a car

10     from the direction of Potocari to Srebrenica.

11        Q.   Thank you very much, Colonel.  I have no further questions for

12     you.

13             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, at this time I've finished my direct

14     examination.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Fluegge would like to put a short question to

18     the witness.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In relation to the white house, you told us that

20     you have been nearby the white house.  Have you any idea how many people

21     were gathered in this white house at this point in time?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing I can tell you,

23     Your Honour, is that when I was nearby that white house I saw about ten

24     men sitting at the house at the time.  I have no indication how many

25     people, how many men, were being detained at the white house.

Page 1235

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, are you ready to start your

 3     cross-examination?

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Koster, you will now be cross-examined by

 6     Mr. Petrusic.  Mr. Petrusic is a member of the Mladic Defence team.

 7             Please proceed.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, my first question is this:  You arrived

10     in Srebrenica on the 21st of January, 1995, or rather, in Potocari.

11     Which rank did you have in the Dutch Battalion at the time?

12        A.   At the time my rank was 1st Lieutenant.

13        Q.   What was your duty in the DutchBat?

14        A.   My duty when I arrived in the enclave was that of a logistics

15     lieutenant, that was my function.

16        Q.   Does that mean that you were involved in providing supplies,

17     materiel, and all other necessities required by the battalion in order

18     for it to be operational during the mission?

19        A.   I did indeed work for the logistics section that was involved in

20     supply of logistics and convoys of people on leave for the battalion.

21        Q.   By reading your statement and listening to your evidence, my

22     conclusion is that on a number of occasions you went on patrol duty

23     inside the enclave?

24        A.   That's correct.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see 1D00093 in

Page 1236

 1     e-court.

 2        Q.   Sir, can you see this document?

 3        A.   Yes, I can see it.

 4        Q.   Do you recognise it -- I withdraw this question.

 5             The handwriting that you can see, can you acknowledge that this

 6     is your handwriting?

 7        A.   I can confirm that that's my handwriting.

 8        Q.   If I understand it correctly, this is a questionnaire given to

 9     you by the ICTY in order to give answers to the questions already asked;

10     is that correct?

11        A.   I don't recall that.

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we move to page 4 in English

13     and page 6 in the B/C/S.

14        Q.   Colonel, this handwriting that you see in the upper and

15     right-hand portions of this page, is this your handwriting?

16        A.   Yes, I recognise that as my handwriting.

17        Q.   At the very beginning you were asked whether you had personally

18     witnessed inhumane and brutal treatment -- I withdraw this question.

19             Let me ask you this:  Does this questionnaire relate to the

20     Srebrenica event that took place in July of 1995?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, isn't that very obvious?  There's no

22     need to ask about matters which are obvious anyhow.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So, Colonel, on page 6 you can see that you provided answers by

25     encircling either a yes or no in response to the questions.  Did you do

Page 1237

 1     that?

 2        A.   As far as I can remember, yes.

 3        Q.   Under item 5 it says:

 4             "Wanton destruction or theft of private property ..."

 5             And you encircled:

 6             "Yes."

 7        A.   Yes, I saw that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Why not ask a question to the witness?  I mean,

 9     it's -- everyone can read that there's "yes" after this question.  So

10     please develop so that we hear evidence which is relevant.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   If I were to ask you whether there was only wanton destruction in

13     Srebrenica, what would your answer be?

14        A.   Whether I saw whether there was wanton destruction or theft, is

15     that what you're asking me?

16        Q.   I'm asking you if I put a question to you that there was only

17     wanton destruction, which you of course should have seen, what would your

18     answer be?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The question is totally unclear to me.

20     Mr. Petrusic, I do not know what you are seeking.  We see that the

21     witness filled in on this form at the question that he observed wanton

22     destruction or theft of private property, he said "yes."  Now please put

23     a clear question to the witness.

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I put the following question,

25     whether he had seen only wanton destruction.

Page 1238

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean by "only" in this respect?  Whether

 2     there was destruction which was not wanton or - that's not clear to

 3     me - or whether he didn't see anything else.  He may have seen vehicles,

 4     he may have seen people.  What do you mean by "only"?  Or is your

 5     question whether he saw any destruction which could not be considered to

 6     be wanton destruction of private property; is that your question?

 7             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No.  My question is whether he saw

 8     destruction that could be considered wanton.  Obviously this is an

 9     interpretation problem.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then rephrase the question in such a way that

12     everyone is able to understand your question.

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So you in Srebrenica, did you see wanton destruction of the town?

15        A.   In the period that I was in the enclave, I was in the city of

16     Srebrenica on some occasions and I saw the destruction of houses and the

17     destruction of various locations.

18        Q.   Was that after the 11th of July, or rather, after the 6th of

19     July, 1995?

20        A.   That was both before the 6th of July and after the 6th of July

21     and around the 11th of July, and in the final period I was primarily in

22     the area of Potocari and the reception area for the refugees.  Before

23     that, I rode through Srebrenica and the enclave several times and

24     patrolled there.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Koster, the word "destruction" may be not always

Page 1239

 1     unambiguous.  When you say "I saw destruction," did you mean that you saw

 2     features that were destroyed or did you see the destruction going on?  I

 3     mean, if you see a house hit by a shell which may have hit a house a

 4     couple of days before, then you see the destruction; but you do not see

 5     the shell hitting the house and -- or destruction.  When you use the word

 6     "destruction," what do you mean?  Destruction ongoing at that very moment

 7     or the traces or the results of what -- the result being destruction of a

 8     house or a feature or whatever?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, both cases are true.

10     In the period before July 11th I saw houses that had already been

11     destroyed, so I didn't see the process of destruction.  In the period

12     around July 11th and afterwards, I also saw -- I also saw shells landing

13     and machine-gun fire between the houses and destroying them.  I saw that

14     process at the time, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, you may proceed.

16             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Yes, just one more question as regards this topic.  Which houses

18     were in Potocari had been destroyed?  Maybe my concept of destruction

19     does not coincide with yours, but you're an officer, you're a soldier,

20     and I think that you know what the real meaning of that concept is.  So

21     which buildings in Potocari were destroyed?

22        A.   I don't know whether we interpret the concepts the same way, but

23     what I saw is that around my position at around July 11th shells hit the

24     houses that were around my position, I saw that.  And I'm describing that

25     as destructions.

Page 1240

 1        Q.   In your statement you said towards the end of January Muslim

 2     fighters wanted you to stay away from part of the enclave.  Can you tell

 3     us which part of the enclave that was and why it was that they had asked

 4     you to do that?

 5        A.   As far as I recall, that would have been the section described as

 6     the Bandera Triangle.  In that period we - in this case UNPROFOR, not me

 7     personally - were denied access to that area.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us how many UNPROFOR soldiers and officers were

 9     taken prisoner on that occasion?

10        A.   As far as I recall that happened in stages, and in the end about

11     70 to 100 UNPROFOR soldiers were detained there.  That's what I recall.

12        Q.   What about Major Boering who went to negotiate after the first

13     prisoners were taken?  Was he also arrested by the same group --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, I read:

15             "When this happened, Major Boering and van Alphen went to

16     negotiate and were also taken hostage by the BiH [indiscernible]."

17             So therefore that question seems to be answered in the statement.

18     Could you please focus on whatever we need in addition to the statement.

19     Please proceed.

20             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, I just wanted to lay that by

21     way of a foundation.

22        Q.   So did your command protest?  Did it lodge a protest with the

23     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sarajevo, or rather, did you protest with

24     the appropriate command of UNPROFOR north-east, in Sarajevo?

25        A.   I don't recall that.

Page 1241

 1        Q.   So, quite simply, you never went to that zone again?

 2        A.   I don't know to what extent you can associate that, but I can't

 3     recall that either.

 4        Q.   Did you ever try to disarm that part of the zone?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Elderkin.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  It's not a direct objection, but the reference to

 7     "you," as it comes across in English, is at least leading me to read

 8     references to the witness personally, and it seems that the questions are

 9     directed at DutchBat generally, and it may help for the record for that

10     to be specified.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             I take it, Mr. Petrusic, that you are not only talking about the

13     witness but also about other members of DutchBat.  Then the question was

14     whether you ever tried - you or DutchBat people - tried to disarm that

15     part of the zone.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I don't recall that.

17             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Further on you say that in the spring of 1995 you noticed troop

19     movements from Zvornik.  These troops from Zvornik in the spring, that is

20     to say the time that you are speaking about, did they arrive in the area

21     of Srebrenica or did they carry out any kind of combat activity in the

22     area of Srebrenica?  So we're talking about the early spring of 1995.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, it would assist the Chamber if you

24     would guide us to the relevant page of the statement.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, just a moment.  It is page 4

Page 1242

 1     in English and page 3 in Serbian -- oh, no, no, no.  I've made a mistake.

 2             All right, Mr. President, I'll go back to that later and now I

 3     shall move on.  What I quoted just now is on page 4 -- just a minute.

 4     Page 4.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Elderkin.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  I think Mr. Petrusic appears to refer to the first

 7     paragraph, page 4, line 4 and 5:

 8             "I also heard that there had been troop movements in Zvornik ..."

 9             If that assists.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we had found it meanwhile, but thank you

11     anyhow.

12             Mr. Petrusic, next question, please.

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So these troops, did they arrive in the protected area?

15        A.   As far as I can recall, they were not in the protected area in

16     that period.

17        Q.   So on the same page, page 4, in the English version it is

18     paragraph 4 and in the Serbian version it is page 3, you say that food

19     was running out.  So you did not have enough food.  Did I understand you

20     correctly, in that period you did not have enough food?

21        A.   In that period we had food but we had to ration it.  The normal

22     food -- the food supply was below what we would normally have had.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 1D0073 is the number of the

24     document that I'd like to have displayed now.  Before I speak about this

25     document, Mr. President, I shall tender this statement which had been

Page 1243

 1     put, or rather, this questionnaire, 1D00093, that is the number.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We hear of no objections.

 3             Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D00093 becomes Exhibit D25,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D25 is admitted into evidence.

 7             Mr. Petrusic, as general guidance, if you want to put a document

 8     to the witness about things that were documented, better first ask the

 9     witness whether he has any knowledge about it.  That it's more

10     appropriate to find that out before a document is put to the witness than

11     after putting to the witness a document and then to hear from him that he

12     doesn't know anything about what's described in that document.  Could you

13     please keep that in the back of your mind and you may now proceed.

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Colonel, sir, were you aware of the situation in which your

16     command approved and provided supplies, that is to say both food and

17     fuel, to members of the 28th Division?

18        A.   I can't remember that.

19        Q.   So if I were to put a document to you, the one that's on the

20     screen, 1D00073, would that refresh your memory?

21        A.   No, I'm sorry.

22        Q.   Please, if I were to read the last paragraph out to you:

23             "We note that the above mentioned quantities have been separated

24     out of the humanitarian aid contingent which arrived in the area through

25     UNHCR while some of the food was obtained from the Dutch Battalion."

Page 1244

 1             Who would be the person from the Dutch Battalion who could

 2     approve these supplies?

 3        A.   That's difficult.  I don't remember the situation properly or

 4     don't remember it at all in fact, and in any case I don't recognise this

 5     letter so that makes it difficult for me to indicate who would have

 6     approved that and I'd like to leave it at that.

 7        Q.   A question of principle.  I'm not saying that you approved it,

 8     but the question of principle, supplies, logistics supplies, would you be

 9     the person to approve that?

10        A.   No.  Ultimately it was the battalion's head of logistics, and I

11     was his deputy -- excuse me, I was his subordinate.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, perhaps I put one additional question.

13             Do you have any knowledge or are you aware of ever DutchBat

14     providing food to the defence -- the Muslim defence or the 28th I think

15     it was Battalion.  But are you aware of ever having provided food to the

16     military, the Muslim military, in the area?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour I don't

18     remember that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You say you don't remember or you remember that it

20     did never happen?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Petrusic, I --

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we are close to a break and I have a few

Page 1245

 1     procedural matters I would like to deal with, therefore I suggest that

 2     Mr. Koster takes the break already and that we briefly deal with these

 3     procedural matters.

 4             For you it would be approximately half an hour that we would like

 5     to see you back.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The matters I would like to deal with, first about

 8     scheduling post the summer recess.

 9             On the 16th of July, the Chamber indicated to the parties a

10     possible schedule for the period between the summer and winter recess of

11     this year.  On the 17th of July, 2012, the Defence made its submissions

12     on this matter.  It stated that it did not object to the weeks of

13     adjournment identified by the Chamber, but proposed that the number of

14     sitting days per week be reduced to four.  Further, the Defence proposed

15     that the daily start time should be moved from 9.00 a.m. to 10.00 a.m.

16     and that the Chamber sit for shorter sessions between breaks.  The

17     Prosecution indicated that it would not make any submission on this

18     matter.

19             The Chamber notes that neither party objects to the weeks of

20     adjournment proposed by the Chamber.  The Chamber therefore schedules

21     hearings in this case for all weeks between the summer and winter recess

22     with the exception of the weeks of the 13th of August, the 10th of

23     September, the 15th and the 22nd of October, and the 26th of November.

24             With regard to the proposed reduction from five to four court

25     days per week for reasons related to the health of the accused, the

Page 1246

 1     Chamber considers that this is a measure affecting the overall scheduling

 2     of the case, and therefore requires specific submissions by the parties,

 3     accompanied by supporting medical documentation.  Absent such submissions

 4     and documentation, the Chamber at this stage denies the request.

 5             The Chamber grants in part the remaining request by the Defence.

 6     On the 21st, the 22nd, and 23rd of August, the hearing will start at 9.00

 7     a.m.; however, as from the 24th of August, the hearing will start at 9.30

 8     a.m.  The daily court sessions will be divided into three one-hour

 9     sessions and one session of 45 minutes, with always 20-minute breaks.

10     The daily court sessions therefore will conclude at 2.15 p.m.

11             I have a few other matters.  One of them is that Mr. Groome made

12     a proposal in relation to adjudicated facts.  He made this proposal in

13     court on the 18th of July, and the Chamber would like to know whether the

14     Defence wishes to respond to that.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I think that we haven't consulted fully

16     on this with the Prosecution, so --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait and we'll further hear from you.

18             The procedure with regard to agreed facts, Mr. Groome also made a

19     proposal on the 18th of July, and the Chamber wondered whether the

20     Defence has already made up its mind on this matter or whether there's

21     still conversations ongoing?

22             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, not only are the conversations still

23     ongoing, but we will probably decide what can we offer to the Prosecution

24     as we read more and more documents and witness statements in the future.

25     So I think it will be ongoing process.

Page 1247

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think the proposal was not on the subject but

 2     rather on the procedure.  Would you disagree with the procedure as

 3     proposed by the Prosecution?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Chamber will consider whether or not to

 6     grant it, now knowing the position of the Defence.

 7             Mr. Groome, you also would like to make a proposal with regard to

 8     65 ter numbers.  How much time would that take?

 9             MR. GROOME:  Just a minute, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the present practice that the

12     Prosecution is following concerns the following situation.  A number of

13     the statements that the Prosecution will be tendering in this case were

14     specifically drafted for another case and they refer to 65 ter numbers

15     assigned to exhibits in that other case.  Obviously, these exhibits have

16     different numbers in this case.  The Prosecution has done with the

17     witnesses to date and proposes to continue to do is to attach to the back

18     of the statement a conversion chart that correlates the 65 ter number

19     mentioned in the statement with the 65 ter number assigned in this case.

20     The Prosecution proposes to actually attach it to the statement to ensure

21     it never becomes separated from the statement and thereby causing

22     confusion.

23             Now, in discussions with the Legal Officer of the Chamber and

24     Mr. Lukic, there are some other concerns with respect to possible

25     confusion later in the trial, and we are actively exploring technical

Page 1248

 1     solutions for that, but I would propose for the time being that we --

 2     Prosecution be allowed to maintain this practice of attaching a

 3     conversion chart to the back of any exhibit that so requires it.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Groome, of course for today the system

 6     will not change, but of course the Chamber would very much like the

 7     parties to seek a joint resolution as soon as possible.

 8             And, Mr. Lukic, if you have already --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  One --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- anything to add to this, then please do so.

11             MR. LUKIC:  -- sentence, Your Honour.  I think that -- this is, I

12     think, the only system the Prosecution can utilise at this moment, but at

13     the end of this trial we will have complete chaos.  It will be impossible

14     for everybody, Chambers, Prosecution, us to follow.  After two, three

15     years, who would remember what happened with which witness and which

16     number was assigned to the wrong document.  So if we search, we would

17     find the document but that document would be different in our case, so I

18     don't know -- we have -- we have to find a solution, but this is maybe

19     some kind of semi-solution but it's not a proper one.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  As I said, for today we're not going to change it,

21     but I also urge that a solution to be found as quickly as possible.  Of

22     course Chambers staff will assist the parties to the extent possible, but

23     I see the problems when in the documents themselves we're still working

24     with the old 65 ter numbers.

25             At least it's now clearly on the record that this problem should

Page 1249

 1     be resolved as quickly as possible and we now first take a break and we

 2     resume at ten minutes to 12.00.  I'll then first read a short -- no, no,

 3     I'm -- I apologise.  No, 20 minutes to 12.00.  I'll then first read a

 4     short decision and then we'll complete the cross-examination of

 5     Mr. Koster.

 6             Mr. Petrusic, could you give us any indication as to how much

 7     time you'd still need with Mr. Koster?

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Hopefully I shall finish by the

 9     end of today.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber encourages you to be well

11     organised in the conduct of your cross-examination.

12             We take a break and we'll resume in 20 minutes.

13                           --- Recess taken at 11.21 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 11.44 a.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, would you please not speak loudly when

16     the Chamber wants to proceed.  You always can consult with counsel, but

17     please at a low volume if there's any need to do it during the sessions.

18             I'll start reading a decision and perhaps meanwhile the witness

19     could be -- remain stand-by, although the decision is quite a number of

20     pages.

21             The Chamber will now deliver its decision on the urgent Defence

22     motion seeking adjournment and continuance of trial or, in the

23     alternative, a reconsideration of the statement amending the guidance on

24     the tendering of evidence through Rule 92 ter of the Tribunal's Rules of

25     Procedure and Evidence, filed on the 9th of July, 2012.

Page 1250

 1             On the 19th of June, the Chamber provided the parties with a

 2     courtesy party of its additional clarification and amendment on the

 3     guidance on the tendering and presentation of evidence, which was

 4     subsequently on the 9th of July formally put on the record.  Also on this

 5     9th of July, 2012, the Defence filed a motion requesting that the Chamber

 6     grant a six-month adjournment of the proceedings or, in the alternative,

 7     that it reconsider its additional clarification and amendment to the

 8     guidance.  On the 10th of July, the Prosecution responded in court and

 9     both parties then made further oral submissions.

10             The Defence submits that since the announcement of the guidance

11     in November 2011, it had organised all its preparations for the trial in

12     accordance with the relevant guide-lines therein, for which the Chamber

13     had repeatedly stressed its preference.  It argues that this drastic and

14     unprecedented last-minute change threatens the integrity of the

15     proceedings and the accused's right to a fair trial.  It further creates

16     additional hardship for the Defence which had already struggled to

17     recover from the Prosecution's lapse in compliance with its disclosure

18     obligations.  Thus, a trial adjournment would allow the Defence to return

19     to the state of trial preparedness it would have been in, had the

20     guidance remained unchanged.  The Defence lists five issues, which had

21     particularly affected its trial preparations, and they will be addressed

22     below.

23             The Prosecution opposes the motion, arguing that the Defence has

24     mis-characterised the Chamber's clarification and amendment to the

25     guidance, and has not demonstrated that the changes had an impact on its

Page 1251

 1     trial preparations, such that would justify a considerable adjournment in

 2     the proceedings.  It notes that it had not altered its Rule 92 ter

 3     package and, thus, the Defence knew what the Prosecution would seek to

 4     tender with the next witnesses for at least 30 days before their

 5     respective testimony.  It further submits that contrary to the Defence's

 6     portrayal, the Chamber's guidance did not replace the Tribunal's Rules

 7     but rather represents the Chamber's preference in respect of the

 8     tendering and presentation of evidence which, in exceptional

 9     circumstances, may be modified.

10             The Chamber will examine whether the extent of the allegedly

11     unforeseen latest modifications to the guidance justify the granting of a

12     six-month adjournment in the proceedings or, in the alternative, whether

13     a clear error of reasoning or the need to avoid injustice warrant a

14     reconsideration of the Chamber's additional clarification and amendment

15     of the guidance.  The Chamber reiterates that its guidance is meant to

16     provide an indication to the parties of its strong preferences with

17     regard to the tendering and presentation of evidence during trial, with

18     the aim of achieving a streamlined presentation of evidence that is

19     concise and efficient.

20             The Chamber recalls that upon showing of good cause and on a

21     case-by-case basis, leave to depart from the guidance may be granted.

22     Therefore, in view of the nature of the guidance, the Chamber considers

23     that any potential burden on the Defence should primarily be assessed in

24     light of how the guidance is applied in practice.  In this respect, the

25     Chamber notes that currently there are Rule 92 bis and quater motions

Page 1252

 1     with regard to two witnesses pending before the Chamber, and that

 2     Rule 92 ter motions filed by the Prosecution mainly relate to witnesses

 3     who will be heard after the summer recess, that is, in at least a month's

 4     time.

 5             Further, in relation to the Defence's concerns about the

 6     last-minute changes to the guidance, the Chamber notes that the guidance,

 7     due to its very nature, is subjected to developments and modifications.

 8             The Chamber will now address the five issues raised by the

 9     Defence in its motion.  First, the Defence raises the issue of allowing

10     the Prosecution to tender additional supplementary witness statements or

11     statements on distinct subjects.  As to the tendering of additional

12     supplementary statements, this modification was already introduced on the

13     24th of April, 2012, that is well before the adoption of the additional

14     clarification and amendment.  But even taken together with the recent

15     modifications allowing additional statements on distinct subjects, in

16     light of the relatively low number of Rule 92 bis, ter, and quater

17     motions filed so far, the Chamber considers that these amendments do not

18     substantially affect the Defence's trial preparations.

19             Second, the Defence argues that the Prosecution would now be

20     permitted to present an unlimited number of associated exhibits.  This is

21     not correct.  In accordance with the Tribunal's jurisprudence, the

22     Chamber's additional clarification and amendment to the guidance allows

23     for the tendering of documents pursuant to Rules 92 bis to quater, if

24     they form an inseparable and indispensable part of a witness's testimony.

25     Further, the Chamber allows the parties to tender associated exhibits

Page 1253

 1     without the witness commenting on them in court under certain

 2     circumstances only, when they do not disturb the clarity of the

 3     presentation of witnesses' evidence.  This, as explained by the Chamber,

 4     would apply to documents of a very specific type.

 5             Furthermore, the guidance has not set any limitation on the

 6     number of exhibits that can be introduced with Rule 92 ter witnesses, as

 7     long as they are presented in court and commented on by the witness.  The

 8     Chamber therefore considers that the Defence's preparations in this

 9     respect have not been substantially affected.

10             Third, the Defence addresses the increase and the Prosecution's

11     examination-in-chief time-limits and the lack of the corresponding

12     increase in the Defence's lengths in cross-examination.  As explained in

13     the additional clarification and amendment, the Chamber had already

14     decided on the times for examination-in-chief prior to the 19th of June,

15     2012.  Furthermore, although the additional clarification and amendment

16     to the guidance does not address the time-limits for cross-examination of

17     92 ter witnesses, the Chamber recalls that in its recent decisions on the

18     Prosecution's 92 ter witnesses, it stated that the exact amount of time

19     available for cross-examination depends on many factors and may also be

20     re-evaluated depending on how the cross-examination is conducted.  These

21     relevant factors include, inter alia, the length of the

22     examination-in-chief or whether the witness is called viva voce or

23     pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

24             Fourth, the Defence protests against the use of transcripts from

25     other proceedings before the Tribunal, which in its view has now been

Page 1254

 1     allowed.

 2             The Chamber recalls that its guidance of the 10th of November,

 3     2011, indicated that transcripts of testimony a witness gave in other

 4     cases would only be admitted into evidence in exceptional circumstances.

 5     The additional guidance merely clarifies the Chamber's initial view by,

 6     inter alia, explaining that while the Chamber will not always insist that

 7     a statement be taken from witnesses who have not previously provided any,

 8     it will carefully consider the party's reasons before deciding on the

 9     admission of transcripts of testimony.

10             Fifth, the Defence claims that the tendering of exhibits during

11     re-examination presents an opportunity for the Prosecution to withhold

12     exhibits, preventing the Defence from addressing them in

13     cross-examination.  The Chamber notes that this issue does not, as such,

14     arise from the additional clarification and amendment to the guidance.

15     It will nevertheless address the Defence's concerns.  In this respect the

16     Chamber recalls that Rule 85 of the Rules provides the general sequence

17     as to the presentation of evidence and examination of witnesses, which

18     can only be varied in the interests of justice.  The Chamber considers

19     that it is inevitable that the Prosecution limit the presentation of its

20     evidence during its examination-in-chief, in the interests of expediency

21     and efficiency.  The parties should not flood the Chamber with material

22     during their case in chief, with a view to anticipating and pre-emptively

23     responding to all possible opposing evidence.  Should the Prosecution, in

24     accordance with the guidance, introduce evidence during re-examination,

25     the Defence will have an opportunity to address this new evidence in

Page 1255

 1     further cross-examination.  The Chamber does not consider that this has

 2     substantially affected the Defence's preparation for trial so far.

 3             In view of the above, the Chamber is of the upon that the

 4     additional clarification and amendment of the guidance introduced limited

 5     modifications to the Chamber's guidance on the tendering and presentation

 6     of evidence, as previously amended on the 24th of April, 2012.  Further,

 7     the Defence has failed to show that these modifications have indeed

 8     impeded on its ability to effectively proceed with the trial to the

 9     extent that would justify granting any adjournment in the proceedings.

10             As to the Defence's request for reconsideration, the Chamber

11     considers that the Defence has failed to demonstrate a clear error of

12     reasoning or the risk of injustice that would necessitate a

13     reconsideration of the impugned additional clarification and amendment of

14     the guidance.  And the Chamber accordingly denies the motion.

15             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, you said you hoped that you would be

18     able to finish today your cross-examination.  If some time would be left,

19     perhaps limited, I do not know how much time you need, Mr. Elderkin, but

20     for re-examination, of course it's difficult to assess at this very

21     moment, but if we could conclude the testimony of this witness today,

22     let's try to achieve that.

23             Welcome back, Mr. Koster.  Mr. Petrusic will now continue his

24     cross-examination.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1256

 1        Q.   Colonel, on page 4 and page 4 in both versions of your statement,

 2     you said that you met representatives of the civilian authorities twice,

 3     and you say that the person involved was probably the mayor and that that

 4     occurred probably sometime in mid-May.  So I'm referring you to your

 5     statement, page 4, paragraph 5 from the top.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And what's the question for the witness?

 7             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

 8        Q.   Mr. Koster, can you tell us what did the mayor request of you?

 9     Did he make any requests or did he merely make some complaints?

10        A.   During that visit we spoke about negotiations concerning

11     logistics supplies and their delivery.  I don't remember exactly what he

12     asked or whether they were specifically complaints.

13        Q.   Do I understand you correctly that he did ask you for some

14     supplies?

15        A.   We spoke about the negotiations for exchanging supplies for food

16     and other materials, but I -- unfortunately I don't remember the exact

17     negotiations.

18        Q.   All right, thank you.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender into

20     evidence document 1D0073 [as interpreted], please.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  That is, Mr. Petrusic -- let me just

22     have a look.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, we are talking about the

25     questionnaire?  No.

Page 1257

 1             Mr. Petrusic, what document because -- forgive me for not having

 2     always all the numbers by heart.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the document about --

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Which spoke about the delivery of

 6     food --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the delivery of food, separating food from

 8     UNHCR, that was not about delivery of food, but about separating and

 9     obtaining.  That was the language used in that document.

10             Any objections?  Not.

11             Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D00073 becomes Exhibit D26,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

15             Mr. Petrusic, it would assist the Chamber that if you refer to

16     documents or quote from documents, that you do it very precise and please

17     proceed.

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Colonel, when you arrived on the 22nd January 1995, did you find

20     there at the location some other international organisations that were

21     headquartered in Potocari or Srebrenica?

22        A.   As far as I can remember, I did meet other international

23     organisations but not on the 22nd.

24        Q.   In other words, after your arrival, that was my question; and you

25     gave me an affirmative answer.  Now, did you co-operate with the UNHCR?

Page 1258

 1        A.   I'm sorry, you mean UNHCR?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   I recall that we did indeed contact UNHCR on a few occasions

 4     after the period of 22nd January 1995.

 5        Q.   Do you know that the UNHCR fuel depot was also situated in

 6     Potocari?

 7        A.   I can't determine the exact location of the fuel depot, but I do

 8     know that UNHCR had a fuel depot in the enclave.

 9        Q.   Do you have any knowledge whether --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Petrusic please repeat the question;

11     it was not entirely audible.

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Do you have any knowledge whether your battalion often used UNHCR

14     fuel?

15        A.   I recall that at least once, but perhaps several times - I'm not

16     sure about that part - used UNHCR's fuel in consultation with UNHCR.

17        Q.   You were acquainted with Lieutenant Rutten, a lieutenant of your

18     battalion.  Correct me if I am wrong .

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That appears from the statement, isn't it,

20     Mr. Petrusic?  He's mentioned many, many times.

21             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I know that he mentioned him,

22     but I would like to hear his answer.  Anyway, it's all right --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, please next question and then it will

24     appear what the problem may be.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have document

Page 1259

 1     1D00092.

 2        Q.   We are waiting for the document, and in the meantime I'm going to

 3     tell you that that's the diary kept by Mr. Rutten as of January until

 4     21st of July, 1995, while he was in Srebrenica.  And the part that is

 5     relevant for the Defence are pages 53 and 54.  I'm talking about the

 6     version in English.  In English it's the bottom of page 53 and the

 7     beginning of page 54.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And your question is, Mr. Petrusic?

 9             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   My question is:  Sir, do you see at the beginning of page 54 that

11     it is said by Mr. Rutten that there was enough fuel for the month of May?

12        A.   Yes, I can read that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Your question, Mr. Petrusic.

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Sir, bearing in mind all of this, was there enough fuel for your

16     units and your patrols to be able to carry out their mission; in other

17     words, to go on patrols around the enclave?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, a time-frame would that -- would you

19     focus on May or would you focus on any other point in time?

20             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I'm talking about the period from the time when the Dutch

22     Battalion arrived until the end of May 1995, bearing in mind of course

23     the previous document as well.

24        A.   As far as I can recall in the period you're referring to, the

25     last diesel transport we received in the enclave was on 18 February; and

Page 1260

 1     from that point we simply used our reserves and operationally we started

 2     to minimise use of motorised transport or at least as far as diesel is

 3     concerned.  So we applied the stage of minimising diesel use in our

 4     operations.  I'm not sure whether this is what Lieutenant Rutten is

 5     referring to, I can't determine that.

 6             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this into

 7     evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, the whole of the diary or this

 9     portion?

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Only pages 53 and 54.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, is there any other portion -- is there

12     any other portion you would like to rely on because you have read

13     literally I think what was in the diary:

14             "There is enough diesel for the month of May."

15             If that's the only quote, I wonder whether we would need -- if

16     there is no dispute about the fact that it was part of Mr. Rutten's

17     diary, whether we need the diary at this moment.

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honour, there's no dispute that that quote

19     comes from Major Rutten's diary.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Then, Mr. Petrusic, do you still insist on -- or would you

22     refrain from tendering this?

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, no.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed and put your next question to

25     the witness.

Page 1261

 1             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Colonel, sir, please take a look at your statement, page 4, the

 3     one-but-last paragraph.  This is the English version and the fourth

 4     paragraph in the Serbian version, the version in B/C/S.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Koster, do you feel comfortable with reading the

 6     English version of your statement, where of course you signed the Dutch

 7     one?  I mean your knowledge of the English language is sufficient to

 8     follow the question in English if you read it in English?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour.  Thank

10     you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President, if

13     you allow me to address you, perhaps it would be faster if it would suit

14     Mr. Koster to have the English version of his statement in front of him.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If a hard copy is available, that could be provided

16     to Mr. Koster, preferably a non-annotated version.

17             Meanwhile you put your next question to the witness,

18     Mr. Petrusic.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   My question, Mr. Koster:  Whose observation posts are you

21     referring to here?

22        A.   I'm referring to the DutchBat observation posts.

23        Q.   Could you have prevented in any way this kind of conduct of the

24     members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or members of the

25     28th Division?

Page 1262

 1        A.   I have a question about that.  Do you mean me personally or do

 2     you mean DutchBat?

 3        Q.   Sir, I do apologise to you for this lack of understanding, but

 4     you are right.  So was it the Dutch Battalion that could have stopped

 5     this kind of thing from happening, such incidents, that is?

 6        A.   I think that enough protests were lodged to the Muslim fighters

 7     in that period not to fire at the Serbs.  Apparently that did,

 8     nonetheless, instigate such incidents despite the protests.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm going to try and intervene here.  It does look

10     as if there is miscommunication here.  This paragraph you're referring

11     to, Mr. Petrusic, it seems to be saying that the observation posts and

12     patrols sometimes came under fire during this period.  You asked the

13     witness whose observation posts these are, and he said they belonged to

14     the ABiH.  Now, you can't then ask whether he can stop the ABiH from

15     doing what they are doing because it is -- they are supporting the --

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Looking at the paragraph you referred the witness

18     to, sir.  I'm not looking at the following paragraph.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] You are quite right, Judge, but my

20     understanding was that during the night Muslim fighters would take up

21     position at the observation posts of the UN, the Dutch Battalion.

22        Q.   Did I misunderstand your statement, Colonel?

23        A.   In my statement I indicated that the Muslim fighters did indeed

24     take position at the observation post during the night to fire at the

25     Bosnian Serb side and the observation posts were DutchBat ones.

Page 1263

 1        Q.   Further on you said that you lodged protests with higher

 2     commands.  Did you try to disarm the members of the Muslim units?

 3        A.   You're still saying "you," and I wonder whether this is addressed

 4     to me personally or is it about DutchBat?  And I explained that we spoke

 5     with the leadership of the Muslim fighters.  I just indicated that we

 6     protested and I don't know, or at least I can't recall, whether this was

 7     the leadership of the Muslim fighters.  So I don't know whether you mean

 8     me or DutchBat in your question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic and Mr. Koster, if Mr. Petrusic puts a

10     question wherein he wants to refer to you as a person and not DutchBat,

11     then he'll clarify that; otherwise, you can understand "you" to refer to

12     you and DutchBat.

13             Please proceed.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Could you please repeat the question one more time.

16             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think that we have sufficiently

17     resolved this dilemma regarding the observation posts, so now I would

18     like to move on to my next question.

19        Q.   In your statement on page 5, paragraphs 3 and 4 in the English

20     version, and page 4, the penultimate paragraph in the Serbian version,

21     are you referring to the removal of observation post E at the south of

22     the enclave?  You do recall that, don't you?

23        A.   Yes, I can recall that.

24        Q.   After this movement -- actually, can you tell us how long this

25     combat lasted?

Page 1264

 1        A.   I'm sorry, I don't recall that.

 2        Q.   After this movement, I mean after the observation post was moved,

 3     did the Drina Corps forces intend to move towards the enclave or did they

 4     stop once the observation post was changed, as it were?

 5        A.   I don't know which unit took up observation post Echo.  I do know

 6     that at that point they didn't get beyond observation post Echo as far as

 7     I can remember.

 8        Q.   So your command, did it have information to the effect that

 9     before this observation post was taken Muslim armed forces left and went

10     to the area in front of this observation post, taking away property that

11     belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska?

12        A.   I can't remember that.

13        Q.   Please can we move on to page 7, paragraph 3 from the top of the

14     page in English, and page 6, paragraph 4, in the Serbian version.  This

15     is already the time of the beginning of combat around Srebrenica.  Sir,

16     that is what you refer to here.  Would you agree with me that the day

17     referred to here is the 9th of July?

18        A.   I'm referring to early July 1995.  I don't recall the exact date,

19     I'm sorry.

20        Q.   Do you remember when soldier Renssen lost his life?  He was a

21     member of the Dutch Battalion.

22        A.   Raviv was indeed a member of DutchBat.

23        Q.   You don't know the date of his death?

24        A.   I don't remember that date now, no.

25        Q.   What about the other members of the Dutch Battalion, were they

Page 1265

 1     aware of the fact that Private Renssen had lost his life?

 2        A.   You mean in that period from what I understand?  Yes.

 3        Q.   Yes, in that period.

 4        A.   Well, it was indicated.  I was in the operations room when that

 5     report arrived, and later on it was confirmed to other members of

 6     DutchBat that Raviv Renssen did unfortunately die.

 7        Q.   In the cited paragraph, you say that observation posts U and S

 8     were taken and that your colleagues were given the choice of returning to

 9     base or to drive into Serb territory, which would mean that they were

10     being taken as prisoners of war.  So these two observation posts were

11     taken by members of the Drina Corps who were carrying out operations at

12     the time.  Is that the way it was?

13        A.   I recall that the observation posts Uniform and Sierra were taken

14     by Bosnian at the time, I just don't know what unit they were taken

15     from -- excuse me, they were taken from Bosnian Serbs at the time, I just

16     don't know what unit they were from.

17        Q.   Sir, do you know that Private Renssen lost his life in the

18     following way, he was going back from his observation post, he was

19     returning to base in Potocari?  He was in an APC.

20        A.   Yes, I know that he was in an APC and was on the way back to the

21     enclave towards Srebrenica and Potocari, and that's where he was injured.

22        Q.   Do you know that he was wounded by members of the Muslim armed

23     forces?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, what does the statement clearly say in

25     this respect?  Ten Muslim fighters said that the armoured vehicle could

Page 1266

 1     not go any further, nevertheless they decided to carry on.  One of the

 2     Muslim fighters threw a hand-grenade -- that's evidence.  Why is there

 3     any need to repeat that?  Please proceed.

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Colonel, sir, these soldiers from the observation posts U and S

 6     that were taken by the Serb forces on the following day, did they

 7     surrender to the Army of Republika Srpska?  Because they did not dare

 8     return because of the threat of retaliation by the Muslim forces.

 9        A.   Yes, I understood that they opted to fall into the hands of the

10     Bosnian Serb army, and I can't speak on behalf of the choice of

11     Sergeant Bresser and van Eck because I didn't know them personally.

12        Q.   You were Major Franken's deputy; right?

13        A.   In the period that I was logistics lieutenant in the enclave, I

14     was the substitute of Major Franken, and when the combat started I was

15     commander of the quick reaction force instructed by the DutchBat

16     operations room.  That was the situation.

17        Q.   Do you know why it was that Major Franken had issued this order

18     of opening the encirclement, if you will, so that the Muslim population

19     could come in?  Why not simply open the gate so that they could enter?

20        A.   I received that order from Major Otter.  As far as I recall, the

21     decision was to get the Muslim population that was fleeing the most

22     protected route possible to the compound, and the route along the road by

23     the gate was in full view and offered all kinds of opportunities to shoot

24     at the Muslim population.

25        Q.   On that first day in the afternoon, that is to say the 10th of

Page 1267

 1     July, did the refugee population arrive in your base?

 2        A.   As far as I recall in the afternoon of July 10th there was not

 3     yet a massive flow of refugees outside.  We did encounter several people

 4     from the Muslim population?

 5        Q.   Now I would like to draw your attention to page 8 of the

 6     statement.  I think that it's the last paragraph on page 8 and the first

 7     paragraph on page 9, the first and second paragraphs on page 9.  In the

 8     Serbian version it is page 7, paragraphs 2 and 3 from the bottom of the

 9     page.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And what's the question for the witness,

11     Mr. Petrusic?

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Colonel, sir, on whose orders did you carry out this mission?

14        A.   At the time I was under the command of Major Otter.

15        Q.   So on his order?

16        A.   On Monday, July 10th, when we went outside and made a hole in the

17     gate and prepared to receive some refugees, I was under his command.  I

18     was his group commander.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And the question of Mr. Petrusic was whether he gave

20     you the order to do that.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To go outside the compound and make

22     a hole in the fence, I was instructed by Major Otter to do that and to

23     get my people ready to receive the refugees, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, Mr. Petrusic.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1268

 1        Q.   Colonel, on whose order did you meet with one of the commanders

 2     of the Muslim fighters of the northern part of the enclave, Mandzic?  Do

 3     you remember that meeting?

 4        A.   Excuse me.  I remember that meeting.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us what the essence was, what the topic of that

 6     meeting was, what the agenda was?

 7        A.   At the first meeting, we were asked what we were doing there as

 8     DutchBat.  Later that evening I had a second meeting and the Muslim

 9     fighters asked about help and to what extent the UN would intervene.

10        Q.   Colonel, sir, is that the same Mandzic from that part of the

11     enclave from which you had been banned, where you were not allowed

12     access?

13        A.   I don't know.  The man I spoke with during the first meeting was

14     introduced to me as Mandzic.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, I'm looking at the clock.  It's time

16     for a break, but I'd first like to have the witness escorted out of the

17     courtroom.

18             We'll have a break of approximately about 20 minutes, Mr. Koster.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, how much time do you think you would

21     still need?

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] To be quite frank, Judge, I need

23     more than the time that is left if I were to do all the things I had

24     planned to do.  I have the 11th, I have Potocari, the 11th, 12th, 13th,

25     I'm talking to you about the topics that I have to deal with.  Until now

Page 1269

 1     I've been told I've used up 75 minutes.  I don't know whether that is

 2     correct or not, but --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber is not only looking at minutes but also

 4     at the way in which the cross-examination is conducted.  Let me just

 5     confer with my colleagues.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, the Chamber has carefully considered

 8     the way in which the cross-examination was conducted.  I once looked at

 9     my screen and saw that for 30 seconds you did not put a question at all

10     to the witness.  I had to invite you several times just to put a question

11     to the witness.  Apart from that, the relevance and the fact that often

12     matters are obvious or already clearly in the statement.  Having

13     considered all that, the Chamber has decided that you have half an hour

14     after the break to conclude your cross-examination.

15             We take a break and we'll resume at five minutes passed 1.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 12.46 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  May the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, you may continue.

21             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, we're now going to move to page 14, paragraph 4 in

23     English, and page 12, paragraph 2 in B/C/S.  In order to be as efficient

24     as possible, I'm going just to quote that you said that the bodies of the

25     victims were usually buried on the northern part.  Do you remember saying

Page 1270

 1     that?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is the last sentence of that paragraph, just

 3     to assist the witness.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I stated at the time, then I

 5     stand by that statement.

 6             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can you tell us how many bodies were buried at that location?

 8        A.   Unfortunately, I cannot remember that at this time.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Approximate number, Mr. Koster?  Was it 10?  Was it

10     200?  Can you give any indication?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, more likely fewer than

12     10 than something near 200.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Did you keep any records or lists of the burials?

16        A.   I remember that DutchBat made a note of the position where

17     several bodies were believed to be buried.

18        Q.   Do you know what was the cause of death of the persons buried

19     there and when did the death occur?

20        A.   No, I can't tell you exactly what the cause of the deaths was.  I

21     know that the time of death must have been around July 11th.

22        Q.   Must have been or was it indeed?

23        A.   As I recall, it was around that time.

24        Q.   Did your command report the burials either to the local

25     authorities or to any of the international organisations?

Page 1271

 1        A.   I have no knowledge of that.

 2        Q.   Let's now move to the events of the 13th of July, when you and

 3     another fellow officer of yours saw ten dead bodies near your compound,

 4     and that's an page 15 of your statement, paragraph 1.  Now, tell me

 5     first, are you acquainted with Private or officer Dorst [as interpreted]?

 6        A.   Yes, I know the name of a fellow officer Dorst.

 7        Q.   Was he together with you on that occasion?

 8        A.   No.  My fellow officer Dorst was not together with me in the

 9     situation as it is described here.

10        Q.   So these dead male bodies that you found positioned as you

11     described, you don't know if they were Serbs or Muslims, do you?

12        A.   I wasn't able to determine that at the time, no.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Petrusic, you put to the witness that on page

14     15 of his statement that he was referring to ten dead people.  In the

15     statement I see only the number of nine persons lying on their bellies

16     with their heads bent forward.  Could you clarify it.

17             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge.  I'm sure I said

18     "nine bodies."  It's probably a translation issue.  We may listen to the

19     audio recording, but obviously we are talking about the people who are

20     described on this page.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That was only for the clarity of the

22     record.  Please proceed.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Colonel, then you go on to say that they wore civilian clothes.

25     Can you tell me, how did you deduce that the wounds on their backs were

Page 1272

 1     2 centimetres in diameter?

 2        A.   That was an estimate at the time.  I walked among the bodies and

 3     at the time examined the bodies close up, so that's how I made that

 4     assessment.

 5        Q.   But, sir, you can only see that visually if you remove the top

 6     garment of the victim.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What was your question, Mr. Petrusic?

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Colonel, do you agree with me that the only way to see this is if

10     one removes the top garment of the victim and that it's impossible to see

11     how the wound looks like if you don't remove the clothes?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, the clear factual question would be:

13     Did you, Mr. Koster, remove or change the position of the clothes of

14     those persons you saw?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  The wounds were

16     visible through their clothes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Then you say that around the bodies you saw pieces of paper,

20     documents of a kind.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Any question or are you just quoting from what the

22     statement already says, Mr. Petrusic?

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   From these documents, were you able to establish anything about

25     the identity of the individuals lying in that field?

Page 1273

 1        A.   No.  Several documents looked like they were official documents.

 2     I couldn't read them, but some of them bore stamps.

 3        Q.   Were there any photographs attached to these documents?

 4        A.   I don't recall.

 5        Q.   And then you went on to say that you threw away these documents

 6     at the moment when you saw a soldier in the vicinity; is that correct?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what the statement says, Mr. Petrusic.

 8     Please put a question to the witness.

 9             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   So being afraid of the soldier that you saw, you threw away the

11     documents; right?

12        A.   No, that's not true.  We removed the documents after we had been

13     fired at and were going to return to the position where the Bosnian Serb

14     soldiers were taken away, the refugees, and we thought that a Bosnian

15     Serb soldier had reported on us.  And we wanted to be free to issue our

16     report.  So that's why we threw the documents away.

17        Q.   On the evening of the 12th -- 11th and the morning of the 12th,

18     did you have any information about the fact that your commander,

19     Karremans, was holding meetings with General Mladic in Bratunac, as well

20     as with the Muslim civilian population?  Do I need to repeat my question?

21     Did you know --

22        A.   Thank you.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The first part was inaudible of the answer.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you aware of such meetings being held.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that meetings were being

Page 1274

 1     held between Karremans and Mladic, and I remember -- I don't remember

 2     that meetings with representatives of the Muslim population.

 3             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   After the first meeting, did the commander or anyone else from

 5     the command tell you that an agreement had been reached for the Muslim

 6     population that had already been assembled in Potocari to be transferred

 7     to Kladanj?

 8        A.   I know that it was at a certain point agreed that the Muslim

 9     would be transferred, but unfortunately I don't remember the region

10     Kladanj.

11        Q.   This knowledge of yours, that the Muslims were going to be

12     transferred, does it pertain to the period prior to the arrival of the

13     buses?

14        A.   No.  I was aware of this after the period the buses arrived.  As

15     far as I recall now, it was after that period.

16        Q.   In one of the video-clips you identified two, as you say, Serb

17     soldiers named Mane and Mickey respectively.  Do you remember that?

18        A.   Yes, I remember that.

19        Q.   Were they present in the area on both the first and the second

20     days?

21        A.   What exactly do you mean by the first and the second day?

22        Q.   Were they present in the area of Potocari inside and outside the

23     compound, or rather, beyond red-and-white tape that you put up after

24     midday 12th of July and after the morning of the 13th of July?

25        A.   As far as I remember, I saw the two Serb soldiers I recognised as

Page 1275

 1     Mane and Mickey.  I met them on the evening of the -- of July 12th.  I

 2     did not see them on the compound personally to the extent I was there

 3     because my duties were outside the compound with the refugees, and I

 4     don't recall whether I saw them on July 13th at this time.

 5        Q.   Just a moment, please.  These persons, Mickey and Mane, was he a

 6     person of authority, as you put it?

 7        A.   Whether these were those persons, they were introduced to me as

 8     the people who at that time were in charge on behalf of the Bosnian Serb

 9     military.

10        Q.   Can you tell us who introduced you in that way -- who introduced

11     them to you in that way?

12        A.   I'm sorry, at this time I don't recall.

13        Q.   Sir, if I tell you that Mane and Mickey were representatives, or

14     rather, members of the unit called the special brigade of the MUP of

15     Republika Srpska commanded at the time by Ljubisa Borovcanin, would you

16     agree with me that this is a correct statement?  Allow me, in accordance

17     with the suggestion my colleague gave me, to clarify that MUP stands for

18     the Ministry of the Interior or the police.

19        A.   No.  At the time they were introduced to me as the people who

20     were in charge on behalf of the Bosnian Serb military.

21        Q.   All the people who were there - we even saw a frame showing

22     soldiers with K-9s, were all these soldiers uniformly dressed; in other

23     words, did they wear identical uniforms?

24        A.   As far as I can recall, some of the uniforms varied.  So to

25     answer your question as to whether all the uniforms were identical,

Page 1276

 1     that's not how I remember it.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us, were the uniforms worn by Mane and Mickey

 3     dominant in comparison with the uniforms worn by other people present?

 4        A.   I don't remember that properly.  I didn't pay careful attention

 5     as to whether all uniforms were about the same.

 6        Q.   When you speak about the separation of men, according to your

 7     estimate did that include men of military age?

 8        A.   As far as I can remember and based on what I saw, I saw

 9     middle-aged men at the white house, I saw young men, and yes, I -- I saw

10     some occasional middle-aged men.

11        Q.   To the best of your recollection was there only one house that

12     you have just mentioned where the separated men were put up?

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Previous response

14     ended with "men of military age."

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether there were

16     multiple houses.  All I remember is that the men that I described, I saw

17     them at what I've said was the white house.

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   On the 13th of July, General Mladic did not enter the UN

20     compound.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that a question, Mr. Petrusic, or would you like

22     to hear from the witness whether he saw General Mladic entering the UN

23     compound on the 13th of July?

24             Could you answer that question, Mr. Koster.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1277

 1        Q.   My question was:  Did General Mladic enter the UN compound on the

 2     13th of July?

 3        A.   I can't remember.  I was working primarily outside the compound

 4     to protect the refugees, so I don't remember and I wouldn't know.

 5        Q.   But you do remember that he went in the direction of Srebrenica,

 6     in his vehicle?

 7        A.   I didn't hear the translation.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The question was whether you remember that he

 9     went in the direction of Srebrenica in his vehicle.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember that, yes.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you remember that he did not get out of the vehicle?

13        A.   When he was passing me, I remember that he did not get out of the

14     vehicle.

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have completed

16     the cross-examination.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.  I even see that you did it

18     within the limits the Chamber said.  It took less than half an hour we

19     granted to you.

20             Is there any need for -- yes.  Before I give an opportunity to

21     Judge Fluegge to put questions to the witness, would you -- is there any

22     need to re-examine the witness?

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  If I may have a couple of minutes on two points.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  On a two points.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  Very short.

Page 1278

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll first -- Judge Fluegge will first put a

 2     question to the witness.

 3                           Questioned by the Court:

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One additional question in relation to Mane and

 5     Mickey, what was the colour of their uniforms, if you recall?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, Your Honour, the colour of the uniforms

 7     was mainly green.  I don't remember clearly whether this was mixed with

 8     camouflage green, but the person I described as Mickey was wearing a

 9     light blue and light lilac jacket, flak jacket, bullet-proof jacket.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Elderkin, you have an opportunity to re-examine

12     the witness.

13             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Elderkin:

15        Q.   Colonel, at page 59 of today's transcript you were questioned

16     about Muslim fighters taking up positions at night at the observation

17     posts, which were DutchBat observation posts.  What did you mean when you

18     said the Muslim fighters took up positions at the observation posts?

19        A.   By "position," I mean that they were in the area of the

20     observation post, and from the area of the observation post they fired at

21     the Bosnian Serb side, expecting to instigate return fire from that side,

22     from the Bosnian Serb side.

23        Q.   And at page 67 of the transcript, you were asked about whether

24     you knew if the nine bodies you found in civilian dress were Serbs or

25     Muslims.  First, was the area where you found those bodies within that of

Page 1279

 1     the Srebrenica enclave?

 2        A.   Yes, indeed.  That location was within the Srebrenica enclave

 3     that the UNPROFOR DutchBat was responsible for.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Elderkin, looking at that map, could there be

 5     any doubt about it?  It was 2- or 300 metres from the road.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  That was to set up the next question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  I only have a few more on this point, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:

11        Q.   Colonel, did you ever see any males in civilian dress whom you

12     believed to be Bosnian Serbs within the area of the Srebrenica enclave up

13     to and including the 13th of July, 1995?

14        A.   No.  As far as I can remember, I did not see any Bosnian Serbs in

15     civilian dress or armed in the enclave.  I didn't meet any.

16        Q.   And did you see any Muslim fighters in Potocari or around the

17     area of the bodies after the time on the night of the 10th of July when

18     you had the meeting with the four ABiH fighters?

19        A.   No.  At the time I didn't see any Muslim fighters in the area of

20     the location where we found the nine bodies.

21        Q.   That's all I have.  Thank you very much, Colonel.

22             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.

24                           Further Questioned by the Court:

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I would have one question for you triggered by one

Page 1280

 1     of the questions by Mr. Elderkin.  You said:

 2             "As far as I can remember, I did not see any Bosnian Serb in

 3     civilian dress or armed in the enclave."

 4             If you would see a person just in passing, how would you know

 5     whether he's a Serb or a Muslim?

 6        A.   I can't distinguish them.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore if you said I never saw a Serb civilian

 8     in the enclave, if I understand your answer now well, that you say I

 9     won't know whether I've ever seen any of them because I could not

10     distinguish between civilians being Muslim or Serb?

11        A.   That's what I meant by that.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions triggered by those raised by

13     the Judge?

14             Mr. Petrusic, no further questions?

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, no.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Then, Mr. Koster, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to

18     thank you very much for coming to this courtroom and for having answered

19     all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench,

20     and I'd like to -- you're excused and you may follow the usher.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber thinks it has dealt with all the

24     outstanding procedural matters at this moment, but, Mr. Lukic, you may

25     not agree with me.

Page 1281

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Unfortunately not, Your Honour.  We have to inform

 2     you about uploaded videos so if you -- it's actually pages from

 3     65 ter Exhibit 19814, so if you want us to do it in written submission we

 4     can inform.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I don't know how formal it is.  If it is purely

 6     practical then --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  It's purely practical.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then an informal communication with Chambers

 9     staff would do, of course to be copied to the Prosecution.  And we don't

10     have to decide immediately on that at this moment, so then we leave it at

11     that --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and it's now on the record that we will receive

14     messages from you.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Since we're still trying to find our way with these

17     videos, apart from sending messages to Chambers staff, both parties are

18     invited to communicate with the representative of the Registry, so as to

19     sort out what has now been uploaded so that Madam Registrar is able to

20     assign numbers to it which -- on which of course we'll then later decide

21     on admission.

22             Anything else?  If not, I'd like to thank just now before the

23     summer recess all those who are assisting us in our work, that is,

24     security, translators, transcribers, everyone who plays a role in the

25     smooth continuation of these proceedings, and perhaps for today a special

Page 1282

 1     thanks for our guest interpreters.

 2             We adjourn and we will resume on Tuesday, the 21st of August, at

 3     9.00 in the morning in Courtroom III.  We stand adjourned.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of

 6                           August, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.