Page 1475
1 Thursday, 23 August 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.55 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom.
7 Madam Registrar, please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Prosecutor [sic].
11 Do I take it that the appearances are the same as yesterday?
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, with the addition of Julia Lee and
13 Ozren Jungic.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 And for the Defence.
16 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours for the Defence, Branko Lukic,
17 Miodrag Stojanovic, Milos Saljic, Dan Ivetic and Erica de la Harpe.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. That's the new addition for
19 the day. Good. Welcome.
20 Yesterday we were busy talking about the admission of associated
21 exhibits, Mr. Lukic, and you were saying you were objecting to the
22 admission of all of them.
23 Could you please just, in a -- in brief state what the basis of
24 your objection is?
25 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, as we said yesterday, we don't know --
Page 1476
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt you --
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you carry on, just to say for the same
4 reasons as yesterday and the day before, the Chamber is sitting pursuant
5 to Rule 15 bis. Thank you.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
7 As we said yesterday, we don't know what we have on those videos,
8 if we do not ask the creator of the video what, on that video is. We
9 showed two videos that are different from what we had announced that we
10 have on those videos. So if the videos are not explained, we think that
11 they don't have any probative value for this trial.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Mr. Lukic, any -- the jurisprudence around
13 the associated exhibits is that they are associated because they are
14 discussed in the statement. Is that not the jurisprudence?
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. But probably it is more for
16 written exhibits, how we understand it. Because video is completely
17 different.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't -- I -- you would have to cite me to the
19 authority which says it is just for written exhibits, because as I
20 understand the jurisprudence it just says that any exhibit is an
21 associated exhibit if it is discussed in the statement, and I don't hear
22 you saying that they are not discussed.
23 MR. LUKIC: They are discussed --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And that discussion should tell us what the videos
25 are about.
Page 1477
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes. But another issue we had yesterday and probably
2 we will have in the future, since those videos were time-consuming, we
3 didn't have time. Otherwise, I had all those videos prepared. If I had
4 time I would go through every single video and discuss it with the
5 gentleman.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like us to mark them for identification
7 and give you time to go through them.
8 MR. LUKIC: If can you call the gentleman back.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. That's not -- calling the gentleman back has
10 got nothing to do with giving you time to look at the videos, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: No, no, I saw the videos, all the videos and I have
12 questions for them. I have written questions to go through, the videos
13 to go with the -- Mr. Van Lynden and ask him about the videos.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not following your argument now. At page 3,
15 you say:
16 "But another issue we had yesterday and probably we will have in
17 the future, since those videos were time-consuming, we didn't have
18 time" --
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- "otherwise I had all those videos prepared. If
21 I had time I would go through every single video and discuss it with the
22 gentleman."
23 And then you are saying ... then you then say, "If we can call
24 the gentleman back." But I thought you are saying you haven't had time
25 to go through the videos to determine in fact whether you do want to
Page 1478
1 cross-examine or not.
2 MR. LUKIC: I didn't have time to go through all the videos here
3 during the trial. Otherwise, of course, I -- I saw all the videos given
4 to us.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. I see. Oh, that's your problem.
6 Mr. Groome.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, the Prosecution's position is, is that
8 the videos do in fact meet the legal test for admission as an associated
9 exhibit. I am not aware of any exception with respect to video material.
10 With respect to Mr. Lukic's submission now that he would have appreciated
11 an opportunity to examine the witness on these videos, my submission is
12 that that is something that should have been raised before the witness
13 has been discharged. Having said that, I would inform the Chamber that
14 the witness lives here in The Hague just a matter of a few blocks from
15 the Tribunal if the Chamber should decide to grant what sounds like maybe
16 an application to recall the witness at some future time to examine him
17 about specific videos that could be done without significant
18 inconvenience to the witness. But I submit that Mr. Lukic, if that is
19 his application that it probably is best done in writing so the
20 Prosecution can evaluate it and the Chamber has more detailed information
21 about the application before it.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that, indeed, your position, Mr. Lukic?
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, it is.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: If that is the case, then will you do that in
Page 1479
1 writing so that the Prosecution can respond?
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the meantime, we can MFI the exhibits.
6 Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I don't have no problem with
8 MFI'ing.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MR. LUKIC: I thought you were asking me for numbers.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, we have got the numbers. We just wanted
12 to know if we can be MFI them.
13 Madam Registrar, if they may be MFI'd, please. Do we need to
14 call them out? Not necessary. You can do that --
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, I can assign only a range -- a range
16 of numbers and then [indiscernible].
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: So exhibits will receive numbers from P80 up to
19 and including P89, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 Mr. Groome, I guess you want to hand over to Madam Bolton.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there is a matter I would like to raise
23 with the Chamber before we call the next witness.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. If you may, please.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, yesterday the Chamber raised the issue
Page 1480
1 of Mr. Mladic's conduct during the hearings with Mladic Defence and the
2 accused himself. I would like to make the Chamber aware of the
3 Prosecution's position with respect to this matter.
4 Mr. van Lynden testified Tuesdays and Wednesday of this week. At
5 several times during the course of his evidence, Mr. Mladic hurled
6 insults at the witness. These were not recorded on the transcript but
7 did go out on the video feed on the proceed and were reported both by
8 local and international press. I spoke with Mr. van Lynden after he
9 testified and after he was discharged as a witness to thank him. He had
10 read about these reports on the Internet and was quite displeased that a
11 witness would be subjected to such behaviour in a court. And I convey
12 that the Court now.
13 After the second session on Tuesday, I asked a member of my
14 staff, a B/C/S speaker, to listen to the B/C/S channel. During the third
15 session, a particularly vulgar insult was shouted out by Mr. Mladic.
16 This has not yet been reported in the press. I must say that the
17 Prosecution did not anticipate such behaviour from a senior military
18 officer.
19 The Prosecution appreciates the Chamber's attention to this
20 matter yesterday. Last evening I reviewed the Chamber's decision of the
21 15th of August, 2012, and noted that the Chamber has only authorised a
22 recording of the video image of Mr. Mladic. There is no provision for
23 recording what he says. I recognise that ordering a microphone be left
24 on to record his statements might have implications for his ability to
25 confer with his Defence team, and, thus, the Chamber might have refrained
Page 1481
1 from ordering such, in light of this.
2 The Prosecution will consider its position further. Hopefully
3 after yesterday's admonition by the Chamber, Mr. Mladic will conduct
4 himself with the dignity expected of an officer. If not, the Prosecution
5 will be applying for additional measures to protect future witnesses from
6 having to listen to insults while giving evidence.
7 Secondly, Mr. Mladic has also adopted a practice of shouting
8 instructions and other information to his Defence team. We can all hear
9 it and many members of the Prosecution team understand what is being
10 said. Before the summer break, Mr. Mladic said something which was
11 certainly not in his interests to say. I want to make it very clear to
12 Mr. Mladic and the Mladic Defence that while communications between an
13 accused and his counsel are privileged and sacrosanct, it is the
14 Prosecution's position that if such communications are made public,
15 because they are shouted across a courtroom, it is the Prosecution's
16 position that this important privilege may be deemed to have been waved
17 and the Prosecution may seek to use any inculpatory statements shouted in
18 this manner.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I may just add it is not deemed to be waived. It
20 is waived.
21 MR. GROOME: The Chamber has clearly demonstrated that it will
22 allow Mr. Mladic to consult with the Defence team whenever necessary and
23 in a way that protects the privacy of these communications. It is
24 important that Mr. Mladic and the Defence appreciate that the
25 Prosecution, if this conduct continues, make seek in the future to
Page 1482
1 introduce such statements.
2 Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Groome.
4 Mr. Lukic, do you have anything to say?
5 MR. LUKIC: I think we will. I think we will have, Your Honour,
6 especially regarding the turning on the microphone, but if you can give
7 us some time probably we should answer to this tomorrow.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. I want to say to you, Mr. Lukic, that if
9 some members of the Prosecution could hear the insults coming from
10 Mr. Mladic, I would expect that all of the members of the Defence have
11 heard them, and I would have expected them -- on their own volition to
12 have taken action to stop Mr. Mladic. We haven't done so as the Bench
13 because we don't understand what he says. You do. And I want to say to
14 you on a preliminary basis, prima facie view, the Chamber takes a dim
15 view of the conduct of the Defence in that they have not intervened when
16 their client has spoken in the manner alleged by the Prosecution. It is
17 a preliminary view. Have you the right to argue and show that, in fact,
18 you didn't hear him. Later, as you say -- you will attend to this later.
19 Okay? Thank you.
20 To you, Mr. Mladic, I just want to say: Stop your fingers. I
21 want to talk you. Okay? You stop misbehaving. This is a court of law
22 and you shall behave yourself in the manner in which you are expected to
23 do, and if you do not, this Court does have measures it can take to deal
24 with the situation. I hope you understand that.
25 Before we hand over to Madam Bolton, one last point from the
Page 1483
1 Bench. And this relates to CLSS B/C/S translation policy, which arose in
2 relation to Exhibits D27 to D37. In relation to these exhibits which
3 were tendered through Witness Schmitz for which a B/C/S translation is
4 missing, the Defence --
5 Mr. Mladic -- the Defence submitted that it could not approach
6 CLSS for a B/C/S translation. There has been further research into the
7 issue of CLSS policies on providing B/C/S translations to the Defence.
8 The Registry Court Officer has informed the parties of the exact
9 procedures. If there are further problems, the parties should first seek
10 a resolution with the Registry and only as a last resort revert to the
11 Chamber. The Chamber further reminds the Defence to provide ... I don't
12 think -- no, no, sorry. I will leave it at that. I think the Chamber is
13 satisfied that where the Defence does not need any B/C/S translations,
14 the languages of the Court are satisfied. Thank you so much.
15 Mr. Groome, is that now Ms. Bolton's turn?
16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, good morning.
18 MS. BOLTON: Good morning, Your Honour. If we could bring in the
19 next witness, please.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be brought in.
21 MS. BOLTON: While he is being brought in, Your Honours, I can
22 indicate the Prosecution will be relying on certain adjudicated facts.
23 Those adjudicated facts are adjudicated fact 1683, which relates to the
24 SDS plebescite held on 9th and 10th November, 1991. Adjudicated fact
25 1713 and 1714 which relate to the shelling of the old town area of
Page 1484
1 Sarajevo in early May 1992. Also, adjudicated facts 1693, 1697, 1698,
2 and 1699, which deal with the issue of the erection and dismantling of
3 barracks in Sarajevo on March 1, 2nd, and 3rd, 1992, following the
4 announcement of the referendum on sovereignty.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Bolton. Let Mr. Doyle
6 come through.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Doyle.
9 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May you please make the declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
12 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: COLM MARY DOYLE
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, and ...
15 Examination by Ms. Bolton:
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will be with you just now, Mr. Doyle. Let me
17 just finish with Madam Bolton.
18 Yes, Madam Bolton, you were saying something. Or was I going to
19 say something?
20 MS. BOLTON: You were going to say something, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, I was going to ask a question. I see a
22 pseudonym is assigned to Mr. Doyle and I also noted that there are no
23 protective measures with respect to him. Is there any reason why we --
24 he should be referred to by pseudonym?
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps I'm best placed to answer
Page 1485
1 that --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you could Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, every Prosecution witness has been
4 assigned an internal RM number for internal reasons and also to
5 facilitate communication. There are no protective measures for this
6 witness and the Prosecution has not applied for any protective measures
7 so there is no need to refer to that reference number.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
9 Madam Bolton, you may proceed.
10 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. Your Honours, with your permission I
11 wonder if I might do what Mr. Groome did with Mr. van Lynden and provide
12 Mr. Doyle with a copy, an unmarked copy of his witness statement for
13 reference during his testimony. Can provide it to my friend.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
15 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honour. I just want to check to
16 make sure because one of the copies in e-court was missing two pages
17 so ...
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, your microphone is not turned on.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I will say that again. I was going to say I'm
21 sorry, I thought it was Mr. Lukic who was going to stand up. I notice it
22 is you standing up. Thank you so much.
23 The Registrar officer will show you the document.
24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 No objection from the Defence, Your Honour.
Page 1486
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, do you have somehow any access to the
2 two pages that you didn't find in e-court?
3 MR. IVETIC: I had access to them, correct. I just wanted to
4 make sure --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers]
6 MR. IVETIC: -- the version that is in the record is the correct
7 one [overlapping speakers] time --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] I want to make sure you had
9 the document.
10 Our apologies if we overlap.
11 Madam Bolton.
12 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Morning, Mr. Doyle.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. Mr. Doyle, I understand you're struggling with an ear infection
16 today?
17 A. Yes, I have an infection on my eardrum.
18 Q. If at any point in time it becomes too painful for you to
19 continue, would you please let the Trial Chamber know?
20 A. Yes, I shall.
21 Q. And are you able to hear all right?
22 A. Yes, I can.
23 Q. I am just going to remind you that you and I both speak English
24 obviously and there is an interpreter who is interpreting everything we
25 say into B/C/S so that Mr. Mladic can understand, so it is important that
Page 1487
1 we speak a little more slowly than usual, and in particular that we try
2 to pause between my question and the beginning of your answer, okay?
3 A. That's fine, yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Indiscernible]
5 MS. BOLTON:
6 Q. Sir, do you recall providing a statement to the Office of the
7 Prosecutor? It was ultimately dated the 27th of July, 1995.
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 MS. BOLTON: And if we could have 65 ter 28383 brought up,
10 please.
11 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise is the number 28383?
12 MS. BOLTON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This one is not in the e-court.
14 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, 28343. Sorry, I need reading glasses.
15 Q. Sir, do you recognise the document that is before you on the
16 right side of the screen?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 MS. BOLTON: And could I ask, Madam Registrar, if you could go to
19 the last page of the document where we should find the signature.
20 Q. And while that's being brought in B/C/S, sir, do you recognise
21 the signature on the witness acknowledgment page in English?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And whose signature is that?
24 A. That's my signature.
25 Q. Okay. And have you had the chance to review this statement
Page 1488
1 recently?
2 A. Yes, I have.
3 Q. And did you have a chance to review the statement at the time you
4 originally gave it before signing it?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. I understand there are a few corrections to the statement. And
7 if I could have 65 ter 28342 brought up, please.
8 Sir, this is an addendum that again bears a signature. And can
9 you confirm whether that is your signature, sir?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. And that addendum refers to some corrections in the witness
12 statement; is that correct?
13 A. That is correct, yes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MS. BOLTON: I'd ask that the addendum be marked as an exhibit,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It may be.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I know it is a technicality, but under
19 Rule 92 ter they have to ask the witness, If you were asked the same
20 questions today would his answers be the same, and that has not been
21 done.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam --
23 MS. BOLTON: Sorry.
24 Q. If you were asked about the corrections that are outlined in the
25 addendum, sir, today would those corrections be the same?
Page 1489
1 A. Yes, they would.
2 MS. BOLTON: Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it please be given --
4 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28342 becomes Exhibit P90, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 MS. BOLTON:
9 Q. And in addition to the addendum, sir, I understand that when you
10 had the opportunity to review your statement this past weekend, that you
11 noted an error in paragraph 90. Do you wish to look at paragraph 90,
12 sir.
13 If we could have back 65 ter 343, please.
14 A. Yes, I recall going through that paragraph.
15 Q. And I will indicate it is on page ... 13 in the English version.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And it's 15 in the B/C/S.
18 The last portion of that paragraph currently reads:
19 "Brade saw no artillery anywhere."
20 And I understand that it should read:
21 "Brade saw no evidence of artillery having been withdrawn."
22 Is that correct, sir?
23 A. That is correct, yes.
24 Q. And with those corrections, does your statement accurately and
25 fairly reflect the information you provided to the Office of the
Page 1490
1 Prosecutor in 1995?
2 A. Yes, it does.
3 Q. And if you were asked similar questions today as reposed to 1995,
4 would your answers be the same today?
5 A. Yes they would.
6 Q. And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm
7 the truthfulness of the your statement?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 MS. BOLTON: I would ask at this time, Your Honour, that the
10 statement be admitted along with the associated exhibits.
11 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are -- you did hear what Madam Bolton said:
13 Along with the associated exhibits.
14 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 The statement, together with its associated exhibits, under
17 65 ter 28343 are admitted into evidence. And may it please be given an
18 exhibit number.
19 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour. I would ask -- I think that the
20 associated exhibits should each of them have its own exhibit number
21 individually, and if so I could read out the 65 ter if that assists
22 Madam Registrar.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, you can do that.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Okay, first, the statement, document 28343, will
25 receive Exhibit P91.
Page 1491
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 Madam Bolton, you may then read out the 65 ter numbers of the
3 associated exhibits.
4 MS. BOLTON: I believe they are 65 ter 10941.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Will receive Exhibit P92, Your Honours.
6 MS. BOLTON: Exhibit -- 65 ter 10944.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Will receive number P93, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MS. BOLTON: 65 ter 10980.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Will receive number P94, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MS. BOLTON: 65 ter 10981.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Will receive number P95, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MS. BOLTON: And 65 ter 18738.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Will receive number P96, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you so much,
18 Madam Registrar.
19 MS. BOLTON: With the Court's permission, Your Honours, may I
20 read out a brief summary of the witness's evidence.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed you may, madam.
22 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
23 Mr. Doyle was a member of the Irish armed forces. From
24 October 1991 until August 1992, he was deployed to the former Yugoslavia.
25 During that time-period he served in three different capacities. In
Page 1492
1 October and November 1991, he was a monitor with the
2 European Community Monitoring Mission, or ECMM, and he was stationed in
3 Banja Luka. On the 24th of November, 1991, he was promoted. He remained
4 in the employ of the ECMM but became the head of mission in Sarajevo
5 region and at that time he was transferred to Sarajevo. While serving in
6 that capacity he had a -- 65 international monitors reporting to him.
7 They were stationed in different areas in the former Yugoslavia and those
8 areas included Bihac, Banja Luka, Tuzla, Mostar, and Sarajevo.
9 His responsibilities as head of mission included liaising with
10 political, military, religious and community leaders. This included
11 having contact with the president of Bosnia, Mr. Izetbegovic. He had
12 contact with a number of members of the JNA, or federal army of the
13 republic of Yugoslavia. He had contact with Radovan Karadzic,
14 Mrs. Plavsic, Momcilo Krajisnik, and Nikola Koljevic. He completed his
15 work with the European Community Monitoring Mission at the end of
16 March and he was then approached to act as Lord Carrington's personal
17 representative and he commenced working for Lord Carrington on the
18 10th of April, 1992, and Lord Carrington was the head of the
19 International Conference for Peace in the former Yugoslavia.
20 Mr. Doyle will give evidence about his observations of the rising
21 ethnic tensions in the municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and
22 particularly near the Croatian border in the fall of 1991, and he will
23 give evidence that one source of that tension arose from the mobilisation
24 order that was issued with respect to the JNA. It was the position the
25 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina that the order, in essence, was not to
Page 1493
1 be responded to. They took a neutral position on it. And, as a result,
2 most Croat and Muslims did not enlist or answer the call-up, whereas, the
3 Serb population did mobilise. And I anticipate that the witness will
4 tell that you in the municipalities, the JNA were taking weapons that had
5 been stored with local territorial units, defence units, and then giving
6 those to the reservists who were answering the mobilisation. And the net
7 effect then was that the Serb population in Bosnia was becoming armed,
8 and the other populations were not.
9 As I indicated, the witness left the municipalities at a certain
10 point, and although he continued to receive reports about the goings-on,
11 he was himself stationed in Sarajevo from that point forward, and he will
12 have evidence to give about the situation in Sarajevo. He has some
13 evidence to give about his own observations of the forcible transfer of
14 non-Serb populations in parts of the Serbian-held areas of the city and
15 about rising tensions in the wake of the referendum results and,
16 ultimately, the outbreak of violence.
17 He has some evidence to give about the bombardment of the city of
18 Sarajevo, particularly in May 1992 and his observations of artillery in
19 the hills around Sarajevo and also about the transfer of weapons from the
20 JNA to the Bosnian Serbs.
21 That's the summary, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Bolton.
23 MS. BOLTON: I just have a technical issue. A brief indulgence,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you may.
Page 1494
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Q. Mr. Doyle, your statement was taken back in 1995, and I just
4 wanted to ask you a little bit about what you have been doing since 1995.
5 I understand that you remained with the Irish armed forces until
6 you retired in 2007; is that correct?
7 A. That is correct, yes.
8 Q. And at that time of your retirement what rank did you hold?
9 A. I was a colonel.
10 Q. Okay. And I understand, sir, that after returning from
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, you held a number of different posts, which included,
12 in 1995, being the commander of an infantry battalion stationed in
13 Limerick?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. You were also a battalion commander with the UNIFL in Lebanon in
16 1997/1998?
17 A. Yes, I was.
18 Q. For a time period you were the director of public relations for
19 the Irish armed forces?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you also served in different capacities with the UN training
22 school and the Irish armed forces training centre; is that correct?
23 A. That is correct, yes.
24 Q. In 2002 to 2004 you were the director of the reserve forces for
25 Ireland; is that correct?
Page 1495
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what are reserve forces?
3 A. Reserve forces are the equivalent of territorials that will be
4 taken up in the case of emergencies. They would be what we might term as
5 part-time soldiers. They come up periodically on weekend for duties and
6 for training so they would be there as a reserve in case the occasion
7 would demand that they become part of the Defence forces.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interprets kindly ask you to slow down and put
9 a pause between question and answer, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, I'm going to interrupt you. The
11 interpreters are asking that you slow down and pause in between question
12 and answer and answer and question.
13 MS. BOLTON: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the comment of the interpreters you will not
16 hear if you don't use your earphones.
17 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I couldn't hear your
18 comment.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Precisely because you were not wearing your
20 earphones. That is the point the Judge was making. You won't hear the
21 interpretation.
22 MS. BOLTON: No, that was actually the question I was asking was
23 what channel the interpretation is on.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Channel 4.
25 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
Page 1496
1 Q. Sorry, sir. Going back to 2004/2006 then, I understand that you
2 were the Chief of Staff, military division, UN peacekeeping operations in
3 New York?
4 A. Yes, I was.
5 Q. Sir, you may, if you need to, refer to your statement to keep up
6 with my questions, because I will be referring, at times to various
7 paragraph numbers.
8 At paragraphs 4, 5, and 6 of your statement, you talk a little
9 bit about the mandate of the ECMM, and I have a few questions about that.
10 You indicate that the mandate of the mission was to try to deter
11 the spread of conflict from Croatia into Bosnia-Herzegovina. My first
12 question is: Do you have any experience up to that point in time in
13 monitoring activities in conflict or crisis areas?
14 A. Personally, I served with the United Nations Truce Supervision
15 Organisation which was monitoring cease-fires in the Middle East, so from
16 1984 to 1986, I was a United Nations military observer in Syria and
17 thereafter in Lebanon. And then I was appointed to senior operations
18 officer of Observer Group Lebanon. So, yes, I would have had experience
19 in negotiations at that stage.
20 Q. And who were the parties to the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina
21 or, sorry, in Croatia?
22 A. I had no personal involvement in the actual operation in Croatia,
23 but I was aware of the fact that we had monitors based in Zagreb who were
24 covering the area of Croatia. They had been deployed to Split and from
25 Split, teams were established to go out to various places like Dubrovnik
Page 1497
1 and other centres. All of my deployment at that time in Yugoslavia was
2 based in Bosnia-Herzegovina so it is in Bosnia itself that I would have
3 had experience of dealing with various sides to the conflict.
4 Q. My question may have been a bit vague. Who were the two parties
5 that were in conflict?
6 A. Well, the parties -- are we talking about Sarajevo? We're
7 talking Bosnia?
8 Q. We're talking about Croatia when you were first assigned.
9 A. Well, when I was first assigned, as I said, I did -- there was no
10 actual service that I carried out in Croatia. But at the time that I
11 arrived I know that negotiations were in hand for the withdrawal of the
12 federal army from Croatia.
13 Q. Which federal army?
14 A. The Federal Army of Yugoslavia commonly known as the JNA.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know with whom the JNA had been in combat
16 in Croatia at that time?
17 THE WITNESS: They had been in combat with Croats of Croatia and
18 there were areas of Croatia which had large populations of Serbs
19 particularly in the area called the Krajina, and that's where there was
20 some conflict and the need for monitors to be deployed.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did the Croats have an army?
22 THE WITNESS: The Croats were attempting to establish an army.
23 At that stage, of course, the Croats didn't have their independence so it
24 was part of the federation of Yugoslavia whose army basically was the
25 JNA. So at that time the Croats may have had some territorial forces
Page 1498
1 that I would be unaware of but certainly didn't have an army as such.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think, Madam Bolton, that's as far as we can
3 take it.
4 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. At paragraph 5 there's an indication that it was understood by
6 all sides that if the conflict spread to Bosnia, it would make the
7 Croatian conflict seem very small.
8 Do you know why there was that feeling?
9 A. Well, the feeling we had at the time was that such was the ethnic
10 mix in Bosnia between Serbs, Croats and Muslims that if the conflict did
11 come from Croatia, and it would be very serious, and it was one of the
12 few issues that all sides in Bosnia actually agreed on. They all agreed
13 when I met the political parties, the SDA, who were the Muslims, the HDZ,
14 who were the Croats and the SDS with Serbs, they all agreed, Yes, we do
15 know, Mr. Doyle, that if conflict comes to Bosnia it will be pretty
16 serious, because the population of Serbs in Croatia in comparison to
17 Bosnia was relatively small, but in Bosnia there was a considerable
18 population of Serbs. So all sides agreed that if conflict were to come
19 it would be very serious.
20 Q. All right. Now I understand that when you were working as a
21 monitor, so October, November 1991, one of your responsibilities was to
22 prepare reports; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. And what was done with the reports that you authored?
25 A. The format at the time was that various teams of monitors were
Page 1499
1 deployed to different areas in Bosnia as you have mentioned earlier. And
2 they would go out to the various municipalities which were called
3 "opstina" and they would meet the various people who were in charge like
4 the mayor of the town, the police chief, and then the party leaders in
5 that local community. We would try and learn to find out what exactly
6 are the concerns of the various communities. What are their fears? What
7 are their hopes? And then we would then compile a report based on her
8 findings. The difficulty we had at the time was that we didn't have good
9 communications. So, for example, when I was in Banja Luka, the only
10 means I had of sending reports back to the headquarters in Sarajevo was
11 by using a fax machine belonging to the hotel that we stayed in. This,
12 to me, was not a secure means of transmission of information, so a lot of
13 the reports would have been held and either sent by fax, if we felt it
14 would be safe, or else taken by the team when it returned back to
15 Sarajevo after, say, a week's duty in the area.
16 Q. And when you say you didn't have a good communications you're
17 talking about between the monitors in the field, as it were, and your
18 headquarters?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in terms of the reports that you authored how important was
21 it to you to try to be accurate?
22 A. Well, my experience in any form of peacekeeping was that it is
23 essential to maintain impartiality and neutrality. And, therefore, I
24 would check all of the reports to make sure that they accurately
25 reflected what we found out on the ground. The report then would be
Page 1500
1 agreed upon by the three members of the team. The team I was a member of
2 also had an officer from France and an officer from Greece. Because I
3 was an English speaker, they looked to me, I think, to write the reports,
4 but I wouldn't send the report unless they agreed with its content. So
5 it was done by our experience. It was done by our -- our -- I suppose
6 our professionalism in our training and then when we agreed with the
7 content of the report, it would either be sent by fax, if we felt it was
8 safe, or else it would be taken by the team returning to Sarajevo after
9 its, we say, a week's tour of duty.
10 Q. All right. Moving forward in time when you become the head of
11 the ECMM and you're sent to Sarajevo, did you continue to receive similar
12 reports from your monitors?
13 A. Yes. At that stage in Sarajevo, I had established an operational
14 cell and the -- one of the tasks of the operational cell was to
15 co-ordinate the reports from the different areas from Bihac, from Tuzla,
16 from Mostar, from Sarajevo itself and then that operation cell would make
17 out a consolidated or co-ordinated report and that report then would go
18 from Sarajevo back to Zagreb.
19 Q. All right. And what was in Zagreb?
20 A. Zagreb was the then headquarters of the entire monitor mission.
21 Q. And just moving forward into time, when you ceased working for
22 ECMM and you became Lord Carrington's representative, did you continue to
23 receive any information from the ECMM monitors?
24 A. Yes one of the tasks I had from Lord Carrington was to attempt to
25 keep the contacts I had, because at that stage I was relatively very well
Page 1501
1 known by the leaders of various political parties, and therefore in order
2 for me to be able to give an accurate report, I would look for
3 information from the Presidency, for example. I would get information
4 from some of the monitor teams of the -- of the ECMM, and then afterwards
5 I would get some information from the United Nations force that was
6 deployed. It was very important for me that one part of maintaining my
7 neutrality was I did not look for military information because I didn't
8 want to be targeted as some sort of an agent or a spy or informer or
9 intelligence officer. And this is something I'd learned from my
10 experience in the Middle East, that we don't look for hard military
11 information.
12 We didn't look for locations of units. We didn't look for
13 weapons. But we did get the information about the trends, about the
14 fears and anxieties were of the various population. So a lot of my
15 information came from having the facilities of the monitor mission
16 available to me when I was Lord Carrington's representative.
17 Q. So if we could then ask some questions about the work you did
18 when you were still a monitor in October, November of 1991.
19 Now, at paragraph 7 of your statement, you've listed some of the
20 municipalities that you visited while you were a monitor, and that list
21 included Doboj, Banja Luka, Derventa, Prijedor, and others. Could you
22 just tell the Chamber, please, what the atmosphere was like in those
23 municipalities you've listed in terms of ethnic relations at that time.
24 A. I would have to say that one of the problems the monitor mission
25 came across was that if we met with the party representatives all
Page 1502
1 together we made very little progress because one side would refute what
2 the other side was saying, and after a while we gave it some
3 consideration and I made a recommendation that after I would say towards
4 the end of October -- but -- about the end of October that there would be
5 more gained by visiting the parties separately. So if we were to go to a
6 municipality, out of courtesy we would meet with the mayor first, and if
7 that mayor, for example, was a Serb then we would invite to meet the
8 local Serb representatives of the SDS. And after that, we would then
9 visit the Croats and the Muslims and then we would maybe talk, for
10 example, with somebody like the police chief so that was the first thing
11 we did there.
12 The second thing, there were some common issues that seemed to
13 come up in most of the municipalities. There was an increase in the
14 amount of distrust and suspicion. Words began like Chetnik and Ustasha
15 that were not used earlier, and there was a lot of reference back to what
16 had happened in the Second World War. And we thought this was getting
17 very serious. In addition to that, most of the areas we visited, the
18 various party representative, certainly the Muslims and the Croats, were
19 expressing concern about the amount of reservists that had been called up
20 for military service, that in a lot of cases they were intimidatory.
21 They were carrying weapons. They were creating a lot of fear amongst the
22 non-Serbs. And this was an issue that I used to bring up myself when --
23 when I went on these visits. And one of them specifically is, Why does
24 it appear to us, why does it appear that the Bosnian Serbs seem to have
25 access to more weapons than those of Muslims and Croats? And, of course,
Page 1503
1 we understood ourselves from the point of view that when mobilisation was
2 called and the only -- the only ethnic group that obeyed with the
3 mobilisation were the Serbs, we found out later that when they were armed
4 by the JNA, and they finished their temporary service, they were allowed
5 to retain their weapons.
6 Q. You've given us quite a bit of information there and I just want
7 to break it down a little bit.
8 You first -- you referred to a mobilisation being called. What
9 was the mobilisation?
10 A. Well, my understanding at the time was that the federal
11 authorities in Belgrade issued a mobilisation and that meant that
12 citizens of Bosnia were expected to be called up to have military service
13 with the JNA or alongside the JNA. The president, Alija Izetbegovic,
14 objected to this and felt that this was not something that Belgrade
15 should have the authority to do, so he made a proclamation at some stage
16 that it was not mandatory for the citizens of Bosnia to obey the call-up
17 to mobilisation. However, most of the Serbs actually did mobilise. So,
18 on the one hand, where you had the federal army, which, at this stage,
19 was interpreted as being increasingly pro-Serb, and the Serbs themselves
20 getting armed from the JNA, we began to be concerned that the weapons
21 coming in were all sort of on the one side.
22 Sorry, I should add here that I took up the issue of the
23 indiscipline of the reservists with all the JNA military commanders I
24 met: The 5th Corps, the 9th Corps - not the 9th Corps. The 9th Corps was
25 in Knin - the 10th Corps, the 4th Corps in Sarajevo. And these are
Page 1504
1 issues that I brought up with the federal army myself.
2 Q. Just a few follow-up questions. You indicated that most Serbs
3 responded to the mobilisation order. What about the Muslim and Croat
4 populations?
5 A. I didn't -- I wasn't in a position to get exact figures but it
6 was my understanding and what we were learning is that very few Croats or
7 Muslims were actually being mobilised.
8 Q. And you also told us that when people responded to the
9 mobilisation order, they were given weapons by the JNA and allowed to
10 keep them. What understanding did you have as to where they were getting
11 the weapons?
12 A. Well, I suppose the clearest indication I had of that was when I
13 went on a visit to Sokolac which is a suburb outside of Sarajevo, and I
14 was meeting with a leadership of an internation conglomerate called
15 SIPAD, and at that particular meeting, as I said, the normal thing was to
16 visit then the local authorities, Serbs, Muslims and Croats, and at one
17 stage in the middle of a meeting I could hear a lot of weapons being
18 fired, and I turned around and I asked the question specifically, What is
19 all the shooting outside.
20 And I was told by the leader of the Serb party that these were
21 reservists who had been mobilised by the JNA. They had carried out their
22 period of service, they were now home, and they were letting off steam by
23 firing their weapons into the air. And I asked the specific question,
24 Are the weapons taken off these reservists when they finish their tour of
25 duty? And I was told, No, they are allowed to keep them. And that trend
Page 1505
1 seemed to be evident in other locations as well.
2 Q. Now, you have explained, then, where the reservists were getting
3 their weapons. You've told us they were getting them from the JNA. My
4 question is: Do you know where the JNA were getting the weapons to
5 distribute to the reservists?
6 A. I don't know specifically where they were getting them, but I
7 mean, there was a very large armament industry in Bosnia, the largest in
8 all of federal Yugoslavia so there was certainly plenty of weapons
9 about -- so I'm not -- I can't in truth tell you exactly where the weapon
10 is coming from, but we did believe that the weapons were being supplied
11 let's say by the federal authorities.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, could you please slow down both of
13 you.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
15 MS. BOLTON:
16 Q. Are you familiar with the term Territorial Defence units within
17 the context of Bosnia?
18 A. Yes. My understanding of the Territorial Defence units were they
19 were existing units that was part of the life in Yugoslavia all over the
20 various republics, and those units comprised in Bosnia of Serbs, Croats
21 and Muslims. And they had storage of weapons. And those weapons, I
22 understood, after a while, were actually being used to actually arm the
23 Serbs. So not only were they given by the JNA but they were taken from
24 the various stores of the territorial units. And this, of course, was
25 something again which was all one-sided.
Page 1506
1 Q. When you say that the Bosnian Serbs were taking arms from the
2 territorial units, was there any involvement of the JNA in the seizure of
3 those weapons?
4 A. I --
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, that misstates the testimony.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC: I think it misstates the testimony of the witness.
8 He said the JNA was the one taking this as I read in line number 10 of
9 the transcript.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry, Mr. Ivetic. Let just read ...
11 Yeah. And your point being, Mr. Ivetic?
12 MR. IVETIC: The counsel has now said "when you say that the
13 Bosnian Serbs were taking arms," that is not what the witness testified
14 to so I don't want counsel testifying about matters that are not in
15 evidence.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
17 MS. BOLTON: Well, as I understand what's written in the
18 transcript, he has said that:
19 "... after a while, the weapons," sorry, "were being used to arm
20 the Serbs but not only given by the JNA but taken from the various stores
21 of the territorial units."
22 So I understood the witness to be saying the Serbs were arming
23 themselves from the territory units. Whereas, my friend thinks that what
24 has been said is that the JNA was taking the weapons from the territorial
25 units and redistributing them and I'm trying to clarify which was the
Page 1507
1 case.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I think the best way to clarify that is to say
3 to the witness: You say, Mr. Witness, that after a while, were actually
4 being used to arm the Serbs. Who used to arm those Serbs?
5 You should ask that question.
6 MS. BOLTON:
7 Q. Could you answer His Honour's question.
8 A. As best I can recall, the Serbs were being armed by weapons
9 supplied to them by the JNA and also from stocks of weapons that were
10 part of the Territorial Defence units that were held in stores.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And who was accessing the weapons in the
12 Territorial Defence force stores to arm the Serbs?
13 THE WITNESS: I'm afraid I actually don't know. I suspect that
14 it was probably the JNA, but I can't say for certain.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO:
16 Thank you very much.
17 Yes, Madam Bolton.
18 MS. BOLTON:
19 Q. You told us that your observations were that as a result of the
20 response to the mobilisation order and the conduct of the JNA that the
21 Serb population was becoming armed. Could you tell us what effect that
22 had on ethnic relations in the areas?
23 A. Well, it caused a lot of concern because the Muslims and the
24 Croats were becoming increasing worried, that these weapons might be used
25 in the future against them. It was one of the consequences that probably
Page 1508
1 was to their disadvantage by not -- to the disadvantage of the Muslims
2 and the Croat by not obeying the call to the mobilisation. It meant they
3 wouldn't have access to the weapons that the Serbs would, but they were
4 quite willing to comply with the recommendation of the president when he
5 said they should not actually go up for mobilisation.
6 But it led to an increase in the tension in the areas, and
7 because the relationships between the Serbs, Croats and Muslims was
8 deteriorating, it increased their fears. That would have been my
9 assessment.
10 Q. Okay. May I have 65 ter 02887.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, while we're waiting for the
13 document to come up, this was a document that was for the first time
14 noticed for this witness on August 20th, 2012 when the exhibit list for
15 this witness was first given to the Defence. This document is not
16 identified, to my knowledge, on the Rule 66(A)(ii) disclosures for this
17 witness that were made in February of this same year. And I would draw
18 that to the attention of the Chamber that I view it as a lapse on the
19 part of the Prosecution of their disclosure obligations under the Rules
20 to provide adequate time and notice to the Defence of material that it
21 intends to elicit through witnesses.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
24 MS. BOLTON: My understanding is this isn't a disclosure issue.
25 My friend isn't saying he didn't have disclosure of the document. What
Page 1509
1 he is saying is that when we filed our original 92 ter notice we did not
2 include this document in that notice, which is correct. However, the
3 practice has been before this Tribunal that - and there is no guide-line
4 at this point in time that I'm aware of - that the parties exchange a
5 final list of exhibits. Two days has been the practice in most of the
6 Trial Chambers before the witness testifies. And the reason that there
7 are obviously changes is that often you can't meet with a witness until a
8 short time before they testify. It is only after meeting with the
9 witness that you can ascertain, I think, that final list. So this list
10 was actually provided more than two days ahead of time to my friend and,
11 as I indicated, at this point in time that has been the practice followed
12 with all the preceding witnesses without complaint from the Defence.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it the Prosecution's position that documents
14 can be sprung at least two days before they are used in Court, and that's
15 fine. Is that what I understand you to be saying is the practice?
16 MS. BOLTON: My understanding, Your Honour, for example, I recall
17 before the Perisic Trial Chamber that our practice was two days ahead of
18 time we had to provide a list of the -- final lists of the exhibits we
19 intended to show a witness in court.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. But these are -- these are documents that
21 have been disclosed either under Rule 66 or Rule 68 or whatever other
22 Rule or 70.
23 MS. BOLTON: Yes. And I understand my friend is indicating -- I
24 don't understand my friend to be making a disclosure issue of --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: As I understand him, he is saying it's late
Page 1510
1 disclosure. It was given on the 20th, three days before the witness is
2 on the stand. That's what he said.
3 MR. IVETIC: If I can clarify, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, please do.
5 MR. IVETIC: The document itself, I don't know when it was
6 disclosed. It's in the system. The document is in the system with all
7 the other documents, millions of documents. However, in terms of this
8 witness, the specific Rule 66(A)(ii) disclosures for this witness were
9 done in February of this year and this document is not on that list of
10 disclosures for this witness.
11 The practice for the previous witnesses, it is true that
12 Mr. van Lynden's exhibit list came four days before he testified, but he
13 was from the first segment of witnesses, meaning that we had three months
14 prior disclosure of the primary exhibits that were to be used with that
15 witness. The same has been true for any other witness that has appeared
16 thus far in this trial. This is the first witness for whom -- he was not
17 on the first segment of witnesses and, therefore, there was no disclosure
18 of an exhibit list for this witness prior to the summer recess of the
19 Chamber. And, therefore, counsel has said that it is the practice in
20 other cases. I have had several other cases at this Tribunal and we've
21 had one week prior to witness appearing has been the rule. So I don't
22 know. I do agree that this Chamber has not set a guide-line and that's
23 why I bring this to the attention of the Chamber so that we can perhaps
24 set some sort of guide-line on this, so we all know what the ground rules
25 are for when exhibit lists are to be provided for witnesses.
Page 1511
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do understand it, Mr. Ivetic, that you are not
3 objecting to this document being tendered? Has it been tendered now?
4 MR. IVETIC: It hasn't been tendered yet --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. But it is being used with the witness.
6 You're not objecting to it being used with the witness right now. You
7 are just seeking guidance from the Chamber as to how we will proceed in
8 the future.
9 MR. IVETIC: Waiting for the transcript.
10 Twofold, Your Honour. Yes, I'm seeking guidance, but depending
11 on the questions asked for this witness, I may have other problems
12 insofar as the Rule 65 ter summary for this witness does not necessarily
13 cover all questions that could be asked of this document. But I will
14 wait and endeavour to see what questions are asked of this document
15 before making any general objections.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, shall we then wait until that time?
17 MR. IVETIC: That's fine.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 Madam Bolton, you may proceed.
20 Just before you proceed, Madam Bolton. We have now been sitting
21 for 1 hour, 5 minutes. Practice in this case is that we sit for one hour
22 and break for 20 minutes.
23 Do you have a convenient point where you can stop?
24 MS. BOLTON: Yes, Your Honour, why don't I just put on the record
25 a couple of comments I had and then we could break and deal with the
Page 1512
1 document after the break.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means.
3 MS. BOLTON: The comments I have, Your Honour, are that this
4 Rule 66(A)(ii) doesn't apply to this document. It's a rule that applies
5 to a prior statements. The document is not a prior statement of this
6 witness, and this document was disclosed in November of last year to the
7 Defence. So this is really the only issue that's reigning is the issue
8 of the fact that notice was given four days ago, I guess now, that we
9 would be using it with this witness.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: When it was disclosed in November of last year,
11 what was it disclosed as?
12 MS. BOLTON: It was disclosed under Rule 68 (ii) which I would
13 suggest is the appropriate Rule.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: 68 (ii). Thank you so much. Those are all the
15 comments you would make?
16 MS. BOLTON: Those are all the comments.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Doyle, we're going to take a short break.
18 We'll come back at 20 past 11. You may stand down and come back at that
19 time.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take an adjournment and come back at 20 past
24 11.00.
25 Court adjourned.
Page 1513
1 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
4 MS. BOLTON: Yes. If the witness could be brought in, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon.
6 Yes, may the witness please be brought in.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton.
9 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Doyle, I'm just conscious of the amount of time that we're
11 using, and I'm going to ask you if you could try to keep your answers as
12 succinct as possible.
13 Going back to 65 ter 02887, if I may, please.
14 Looking at the first page of this document that should be in
15 front of you, sir. You see it's a document dated 20th March, 1992, and
16 the author is Commander General Kukanjac. Did you know that gentleman?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And if we could go to, please, page 6 in the English and pages 4
19 to 5 in the B/C/S. Under subheading (5), you see some information
20 indicating that some -- under subparagraph (f), the JNA had distributed
21 some 51.900 weapons to volunteer units in the zone, and I'm wondering if
22 that information confirms or contradictions your suspicions about the
23 JNA's role in arming the Serbian population?
24 A. I think that would conform with what our suspicions were at the
25 time.
Page 1514
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MS. BOLTON: I would be asking to tendered that document into
3 evidence, Your Honours.
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'm confused if the -- if its being
5 tendered -- the witness did not prepare it. I don't know if he has seen
6 it before. He is not the author of the document. I don't have an
7 objection to it coming in based upon the fact that a question was asked
8 upon it, but is the document coming in as a whole or just as to the part
9 that was presented to the witness.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
11 MS. BOLTON: It's a document authored --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Whole document or [Overlapping speakers] ...
13 MS. BOLTON: The whole document, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] question that is being
15 asked of the witness. What do we do about the whole document? If only
16 asked one question about the document under 5 (f).
17 MS. BOLTON: I think in fairness, Your Honour, that it's a report
18 prepared by General Kukanjac, and in order to assess the reliability of
19 the information that you should have -- and the context you should have
20 the whole document in front of you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do we do that if we don't have
22 General Kukanjac before us?
23 MS. BOLTON: Well, in order to understand the context of the
24 document the portion that is being proffered, Your Honour, I think you
25 have to read the document in its entirety.
Page 1515
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: How many pages?
2 MS. BOLTON: 16, I believe.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, Madam Bolton, we have a guidance on that. You
4 can't do that.
5 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, it's 12 pages in English, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Even that, we have clear guidance on tendering of
7 exhibits where you just deal with one little sentence in a document of a
8 number of pages.
9 MS. BOLTON: That's fine, Your Honours, and if pages 1 and the
10 current page we're looking at under subsection 4 could be tendered.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We'll take page 1 and this
12 page admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
13 And may they please be uploaded separately, Madam Registrar --
14 Madam Bolton.
15 MS. BOLTON: They'll be uploaded, Your Honour, as 2887A.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Of the two pages.
17 MS. BOLTON: Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2887A, once uploaded becomes
19 Exhibit P97, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 MS. BOLTON: May I have 65 ter 10942, please.
22 Q. Sir, do you recognise the document that appears on the screen
23 before you?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Who authored this document?
Page 1516
1 A. That was done by my office.
2 Q. And approximately what time-period?
3 A. I think this was done in around February 1992 to prepare for a
4 visit of the head of the mission.
5 Q. Okay. And if we could move forward to the next page, please.
6 The purpose of this document was to do what?
7 A. The new head of the monitoring mission was scheduled for a visit
8 to Sarajevo. His name was Salgueiro from Portugal, and I prepared this
9 document as briefing notes for his visit.
10 MS. BOLTON: And this document in its entirety if we could go to
11 the last page, please - it's 19 pages, but I will indicate, Your Honour,
12 that I will ask that only up to 65 ter 003322 -- sorry, this is an ERN.
13 00332219, which I believe is page 9 in the English version, is what I
14 will be seeking to tender ultimately. And we'll have to have that
15 uploaded into a separate document, Your Honours.
16 Q. Just with respect to paragraph 49 and 51 of your statement, you
17 indicated that by February 1992 the ECMM missions were having problems
18 with freedom of movement; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, we were experiencing some problems there.
20 Q. And in what areas?
21 A. Mostly, I recall, in the area of Banja Luka and north of
22 Banja Luka which would have been towards the north.
23 Q. And if we could have page 5 of the document that's on the screen,
24 please, in both English and B/C/S. Sorry, page 6 in the English and the
25 B/C/S.
Page 1517
1 Under the heading Bihac, second sentence says:
2 "Access in the 9th Corps area is restricted."
3 Do you know who the commander was of the 9th Corps at that time?
4 A. The commander of the 9 Corps at that time was
5 General Ratko Mladic.
6 Q. And do you know why they were having difficulties with access?
7 A. I'm not quite sure. But it was the monitor mission members from
8 Bosnia who were not allowed into the 9th Corps area. I cannot speak for
9 any of the monitors that would have been based in Croatia.
10 Q. Did you have a conversation with a General Ninkovic in this
11 regard?
12 A. Yes, I.
13 Q. And what did -- sorry, who is General Ninkovic?
14 A. General Ninkovic was the JNA commander of the 10th Corps in
15 Bihac.
16 Q. And what did General Ninkovic tell you about access to the
17 9th Corps?
18 A. He said that access would be denied by the commander of the
19 9th Corps to members of the monitor mission from Bosnia.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it your evidence, sir, that both the 9th and
21 the 10th corps were billeted in Bihac?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, my understanding was the
23 9th Corps would have been billeted in Knin and the 10th Corps billeted in
24 Bihac or covering that area.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then the 9th Corps has been discussed -- well, you
Page 1518
1 say access in the 9th Corps area is restricted and this is under heading
2 of Bihac.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, I put that down there because it was in the
4 area of Bihac that I was given this information.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would kindly ask you for a clarification. In
7 line 12 of the count page, you are recorded as having said:
8 "I said that access would be denied by the commander of the
9 9th Corps."
10 I said, or he said?
11 THE WITNESS: No. That should be he said.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: He said.
13 THE WITNESS: General Ninkovic, who was the commander of the
14 10th Corps intimated that permission would not be forthcoming from the
15 commander of the 9th Corps to members of the monitor mission from Bosnia
16 going into that area.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
18 MS. BOLTON: Seeking to tender the eight pages I alluded to into
19 evidence, Your Honour. Again, we have to have it uploaded separately.
20 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honours. We have to consult with
21 the client.
22 MS. BOLTON: Correction, Your Honours, it is actually pages 1 to
23 9 in both the English and the B/C/S.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the Chamber still has a problem, Madam Bolton,
25 because you actually used the first page and this page only.
Page 1519
1 MS. BOLTON: In the case of this document, however, it's a
2 document that the witness personally prepared, the contents relate to him
3 bringing up to date the mission on the -- the new mission commander as to
4 what had been transpiring under the work of the ECMM. And, in my
5 respectful submission, it does contain relevant information. I can ask
6 more questions and deal with it in greater detain, but I'm conscious
7 again of the time.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I note that Mr. Doyle is a 92 ter witness. Does
9 he discuss the other pages in his 92 ter statement?
10 MS. BOLTON: Yes. The contents of the report are discussed in
11 his 92 ter statement. It was an annex, and originally we -- it -- it
12 could have been proffered as an associate exhibit.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just going to ask you that you question --
14 MS. BOLTON: And at the time that the initial determination was
15 made we had indicated we would not be, but we reserved the right to
16 tender it if that changed. And in light of information that came out
17 during proofing we decided to tender it, and therefore it could be, in my
18 respectful submission, tendered as an associated exhibit. It is
19 discussed by the witness.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could it be or is it being?
21 MS. BOLTON: Well, having not -- having not indicated previously
22 we would be seeking to tender it as an associate exhibit I don't feel I
23 can change that position. We've indicated or provided notice that we may
24 try to tender it in court, and that is my position. It is discussed in
25 the witness's evidence.
Page 1520
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.
2 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honours. I had understood it as
4 being an associated exhibit, and since it is authored by the witness, I
5 did not have an objection for this particular document being introduced
6 in the manner that was foreseen for associated exhibits. The one issue I
7 have that my client has just advised me of, while the witness answered
8 the last question which related directly to Mr. Mladic, there was
9 apparently a problem with the headphones and he did not actually receive
10 that in a language he understood, so he was asking for that portion to be
11 repeated insofar as it dealt directly with him and he did not have the
12 ability to follow what was being said.
13 But with respect to this document, we do not have an objection.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you very much
15 Mr. Ivetic.
16 Madam Bolton, are you able to get the witness to repeat the
17 answer to the question that Mr. Mladic didn't receive in a language he
18 understands that related to, I think, the fact that the commander of the
19 9th Corps was said to be going to refuse access to the area. And this
20 was being said by the commander of the 10th Corps. If we can deal with
21 that little part, please.
22 MS. BOLTON:
23 Q. If you could just very briefly repeat what you told the Court
24 about your conversation with General Ninkovic.
25 A. When I requested General Ninkovic to find out if members of the
Page 1521
1 mission from Bosnia could enter into the operational area of the
2 9th Corps the reply I received from General Ninkovic was that the
3 commander of the 9th Corps, General Mladic would not allow or would not
4 permit or give access to members of the monitor mission from Bosnia from
5 going into his operational area, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Is that okay now, Mr. Ivetic?
8 MR. IVETIC: I'm seeing nothing that says otherwise. So I
9 believe that that's fine. Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Okay. The document is now
11 admitted into evidence. The first nine pages of the document, may it
12 please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, may I receive just a number under
14 which these pages will be uploaded.
15 MS. BOLTON: 10942A.
16 THE REGISTRAR: 10942A will receive number P98, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.
18 Yes, Madam Bolton.
19 MS. BOLTON:
20 Q. Could I ask you, sir, the point in time when you moved to
21 Sarajevo, did you ever have occasion to stay at the Hotel Bosna?
22 A. The hotel I stayed in for the period of my time in Sarajevo was
23 in Hotel Bosna in Ilidza.
24 Q. And at any point in time -- sorry. What kind of area is Ilidza
25 who was the predominant [Overlapping speakers] ...
Page 1522
1 A. Ilidza would have been a predominantly Serb area on the outskirts
2 of Sarajevo.
3 Q. When you were first started staying at the hotel, what was the
4 staff composition?
5 A. I can't remember the exact breakdown but certainly there were
6 Muslims and there were Serbs as members of the hotel staff.
7 Q. And did you ever observe a change in that?
8 A. Yes. It was around the period when the dining-room was moved to
9 the back of the hotel for safety so the conflict had actually started,
10 and there seemed to be a new Serb delegation in authority in the area of
11 Ilidza, and I was invited to a dinner that they were hosting and I
12 noticed at the dinner that all of the regular staff that I had come to
13 know were not there. So when I raised it, I was told that the Muslim
14 members of the staff had been moved out of the hotel and had been
15 dropped, as the word I learned was dropped off at the centre of Sarajevo.
16 When I inquired as to why, I was told it was because it was for their
17 safety because they were Muslims.
18 Q. And who give you that information?
19 A. The -- I don't recall the name of the Serb, but he was the leader
20 of the Serb delegation that was now stationed in Ilidza. I don't recall
21 his name. I remember distinctly because I asked was there any Muslim
22 member of staff who was retained, and he said, yes, the chef because he
23 was a good cook was his reply.
24 Q. You refer in your statement to paragraphs 83 and 85 to receiving
25 a phone call from a Mrs. Banjac and she had expressed concerns to you
Page 1523
1 about her husband who had been taken into custody by the Serb MUP in
2 Vrace. And you indicate in your statement that you had raised the issue
3 with Mrs. Plavsic and the Serb leadership on the 1st of May, and you were
4 told that Mr. Banjac would probably be released very soon.
5 I wanted to ask if there was any delay in your making inquiries
6 about Mr. Banjac and your receiving that response from the Serb
7 leadership. Did they need, for example, to step out of the room and make
8 some inquiries or a phone call?
9 A. No, I raised it as a general issue when I went up to Pale on that
10 occasion. And nothing had happened for a few days, and I raised it then
11 by contacting Radovan Karadzic, and I was told that he would be released.
12 I followed up on it by contacting this lady and she informed me that he
13 had been tortured badly and that he was now a broken man physically. I
14 had hoped at some stage I might meet with him but circumstances precluded
15 that.
16 Q. We -- if I could have 65 ter 18738, please.
17 Sorry, this is P0096 [sic] now. 00096.
18 You recognise the transcript in front of you of a conversation
19 between Mr. Koljevic and a Mr. Karasik?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Where do you recognise the transcript from?
22 A. The transcript was given to me by the acting prime minister of
23 Bosnia at the time, a man called Musmir Mamusjehajic [phoen]. He gave me
24 a copy of the transcript.
25 Q. And when was that given to you?
Page 1524
1 A. I think it was around the end of April.
2 Q. Of what year?
3 A. 1992.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, who do we say Mr. Koljevic is
5 talking to?
6 MS. BOLTON: Mr. Karisik.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh Mladjo Karisik.
8 MS. BOLTON: Yes.
9 Q. There is a reference in the intercept to the withdrawal of some
10 artillery. What was that in regards to?
11 A. At the time this happened there were peace talks being held in
12 Lisbon which were being attended by the party leaders. And in a
13 conversation with Mr. Jose Cutileiro who was working as part the peace
14 conference, I was asked if I would go to Pale to ascertain if the Serbs
15 were complying with what they said they would do which was to withdraw
16 some of the artillery from their firing positions overlooking the city of
17 Sarajevo. So one of the reasons I went to Pale was to ascertain if this,
18 in fact, was being complied with.
19 Q. And when did you go to Pale?
20 A. I went to Pale on the 1st of May. I tried to get up on the 30th
21 of April, but because there were so many military movements of heavy
22 artillery and tanks on their way to Pale we were unable to get to our
23 destination, so we returned.
24 Q. Whose artillery and tanks were on the way to Pale?
25 A. There were armaments from the JNA which were being given to the
Page 1525
1 Bosnian Serbs in Pale.
2 Q. Just going back to the -- to the transcript, when you were
3 actually given the transcript originally, were you able to listen to the
4 accompanying audio at that time?
5 A. Yes, I was.
6 Q. Sorry, at the time that Mr. -- that the acting prime minister
7 gave it to you?
8 A. No. I was just given the transcript. I wasn't given any audio
9 version of that.
10 Q. And subsequently have you had the opportunity to listen to the
11 audio?
12 A. Yes. I was asked if I would listen to it again and if I could
13 identify any of the voices.
14 Q. And were you able to identify any of the voices?
15 A. I was able to identify the voice of Nikola Koljevic but not the
16 other person.
17 Q. And at that time were you given the opportunity to listen to
18 other intercepts and do voice identification with respect to those as
19 well?
20 A. Yes. I think I was asked to listen to maybe five or six
21 different conversations.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, I would ask for where this is
24 located in the Rule 65 ter summary for this witness.
25 MS. BOLTON: Can I have a brief indulgence, Your Honour.
Page 1526
1 Your Honour, perhaps I could look for that shortly. I don't want
2 to spend too much time just briefing -- I could either take a brief
3 recess or I could continue on and come back to the issue.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Continue, and you'll come back to the issue.
5 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour, I couldn't hear your response.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Continue and come back
7 to the issue.
8 MS. BOLTON:
9 Q. You alluded a moment ago to a trip you made to Pale on the
10 1st of May, 1992. Who did you travel with?
11 A. I travelled with Mrs. Plavsic and another member of the monitor
12 mission, Mr. Jeremy Brade.
13 Q. And did you have any conversation with Mrs. Plavsic en route?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. What did she say to you?
16 A. She spoke about the need for the Serbs to have their own
17 territory and she referred to the fact that because Muslims were
18 generally living in areas of the cities that the Serbs would need about
19 75 per cent of the territory in order to have their fair share.
20 She also surprisingly mentioned to me that if this conflict were
21 to take the lives of 3 million people, we might as well get on with it
22 and carry on.
23 Q. At that point in time, May of 1992, what was the situation in the
24 city of Sarajevo?
25 A. The situation was very tense. The issue of the referendum had
Page 1527
1 been held, I think I would say that positions were being very much
2 entrenched, and there was a lot of artillery being fired on the city. So
3 movement was very difficult and quite dangerous.
4 Q. And where was the artillery being fired from?
5 A. We were satisfied that the artillery was being fired from the
6 area of Pale and the surrounding hills.
7 Q. And can you describe the quantity of -- of fire that you were
8 encountering?
9 A. Well, I don't have the exact details, but they were sufficiently
10 frequent to force us into -- to take some cover in the bunkers; in my
11 case, in the bunkers of the United Nations headquarters which were the
12 PTT building in Sarajevo.
13 Q. You've described artillery being fired into the city from the
14 surrounding hills. Did you observe any outgoing fire from the city
15 towards the hills?
16 A. Not that I could discern.
17 Q. I understand from your statement that a decision was made to
18 withdraw the ECMM monitors from Sarajevo on the 11th of May, 1992 and
19 that you were to be also evacuated at that time, on the 12th of May.
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. How were you evacuated from the city?
22 A. I was evacuated by a helicopter belonging to the JNA from
23 Lukavica, and I was in the company of General Aksentijevic, the
24 deputy commander of the 2nd Military District in Sarajevo.
25 Q. What is Lukavica?
Page 1528
1 A. Lukavica is a military base belonging -- or occupied by the JNA
2 on the outskirts of Sarajevo.
3 Q. And when you flew out by helicopter, which direction did you fly?
4 A. We flew in a line generally from Lukavica towards Pale because I
5 was informed by General Aksentijevic there was a requirement to pick up a
6 member of the JNA who was very seriously injured.
7 Q. And as you flew out in the direction of Pale, can you tell us
8 what you observed?
9 A. I was able to observe a considerable range of artillery, heavy
10 mortars and tanks that were on the ridge line between Sarajevo and Pale.
11 Q. And did you form any opinion or conclusion as whose artillery,
12 heavy mortars, and tanks those were?
13 A. Well, I assumed that because we were on our way to Pale that they
14 were belonging to the JNA or the Bosnian Serbs, and also the fact that it
15 was a JNA helicopter. I felt that if it was belonging to anybody other
16 than the Serbs they would have attempted to shoot down the helicopter I
17 was in.
18 Q. And were you flying at a range that you could have been
19 susceptible to fire?
20 A. We were flying -- we were flying at a range of maybe 2- or 300
21 feet. It was quite low.
22 Q. And were any shots fired at the helicopter?
23 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
24 Q. Could I have Exhibit P95, please.
25 Do you recognise this document, sir?
Page 1529
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. What is it?
3 A. It is the report of a meeting I had with
4 President Slobodan Milosevic in his office in Belgrade.
5 Q. At whose instance was that meeting held?
6 A. I understand the invitation to meet him came, in fact, from his
7 office from a liaison officer of the federal army.
8 Q. And before attending this meeting, did you have any conversation
9 with your superiors about what role you would take in the meeting or what
10 positions you would take?
11 A. Yes. I informed Lord Carrington of this invitation, and he asked
12 me not to make any arrangements until they gave it some consideration and
13 then I was issued with instructions after that long with the
14 recommendation that I attend the meeting.
15 Q. What instructions where you given?
16 A. I was told that I was there mainly for a watching brief. I
17 should listen to what President Milosevic wished to say to me, and I
18 should accurately reflect in my report the points that he was to bring
19 up. And then there were a few issues that I should, if the opportunity
20 arose, ask him to do, which, I think, are generally listed on that
21 report.
22 Q. If I could have page 2 in both the B/C/S and the English.
23 Paragraph 4 indicates:
24 "I stressed that Lord Carrington was anxious for Milosevic to use
25 his influence over Serbian irregulars in BiH and over General Mladic to
Page 1530
1 end the shelling of Sarajevo."
2 Was that something you were authorised to say?
3 A. Yes, it was. And I brought that to the attention of the
4 president.
5 Q. And if I could have page 4 in the English version, and also
6 page 4 in the B/C/S.
7 There's an indication at paragraph 7:
8 "Milosevic pointed out more than once that Belgrade had
9 vigorously condemned the shelling of Sarajevo which had been a futile and
10 criminal exercise for which the perpetrators should be punished."
11 Does this document accurately reflect what Slobodan Milosevic
12 told you?
13 A. Yes, it does.
14 Q. Who actually prepared the document?
15 A. The document was prepared by a first secretary to the British
16 embassy who accompanied me to the meeting, and his task, I had asked him
17 to report on what had happened as accurately as he could but not to be
18 involved in any discussion with the president.
19 Q. Final document I wish to ask you about, sir, is 65 ter 03344.
20 MS. BOLTON: Just been advised, Your Honour, that the B/C/S
21 translation of this document is not yet available. I only wish to ask
22 the witness about two sentences which I propose to read into the record
23 so they will be simultaneously translated.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, you may proceed, ma'am.
25 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
Page 1531
1 Q. First of all, could you tell us what the London Conference was?
2 A. The London Peace Conference was organised by, I think, the
3 leadership of the United Nations and the British prime minister and all
4 the leaders of the republics were being invited to see could they come to
5 some arrangement to end the conflict in Yugoslavia.
6 Q. And if I could have, please, the next page, paragraph 5.
7 There's an indication there that Dr. Karadzic said that he had
8 issued instructions to "stop his forces from harassing those Muslims and
9 Croats who were 'willing' to leave Serbian areas from signing papers to
10 that effect. He confirmed that any such papers would have no validity in
11 the light of a final settlement."
12 Could you explain what that reference is to?
13 A. Well, I think it was probably in relation to the fact that it was
14 known that some non-Serbs were being expelled from their home -- homes
15 and their estates, and they were compelled to sign a document, disavowing
16 all ownership of those. I had an occasion to speak with Dr. Karadzic on
17 this issue myself.
18 Q. Do you remember what the date was that you spoke to Dr. Karadzic
19 about the issue?
20 A. I don't have it actually in front of me, but I know it was during
21 peace talks in -- in -- in Brussels, and it would have been -- I think it
22 would have been in August 1992 because he requested to meet me over a
23 photograph that I found in a national paper.
24 Q. And what was that photograph of?
25 A. It was a photograph taken of an emaciated prisoner in one of the
Page 1532
1 detention camps in Bosnia which was given a lot of international coverage
2 having been discovered, and I think the prisoner in the photograph was a
3 man called Alic, Fikret Alic.
4 Q. And do you recall when the London Conference was?
5 A. If I could just have a moment to find out, if I could.
6 I think it was towards the end of August. Yes, the conference
7 took place between the 26th and 27th of August, 1992.
8 Q. And did the peace talks in Brussels take place before or after
9 the London Conference?
10 A. They took place before that.
11 MS. BOLTON: I'll be asking to have that document admitted.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you were going to read just two
13 sentences out of it so that they can be translated, madam. Yeah, that's
14 what I thought I heard you said.
15 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I was seeking -- I suppose the translation is
16 not yet available. If it could be -- I did read those two sentences and
17 if it could be MFI'd.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
19 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: To MFI or to admission?
21 MR. IVETIC: To MFI.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
23 please be given an exhibit number and marked for identification.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03344 becomes Exhibit P94 [sic] marked
25 for identification, Your Honours.
Page 1533
1 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, that was my penultimate document to ask you
2 about, sir. The final document is 65 ter 01027.
3 Q. I wanted to ask you - while the document is being brought up -
4 where was the headquarters of the ECMM located?
5 A. Zagreb, Croatia.
6 Q. Do you recall the address?
7 A. It was what we called, referred to as the Hotel I which I think
8 was the international hotel.
9 Q. And did the headquarters have any official stationary that they
10 used for correspondence?
11 A. We had the logo of the monitor mission which was similar to the
12 logo -- well, it was rectangle but it was the 12 flags of the then
13 European Community, or now known as the European Union, and that was the
14 logo we used on our headed paper.
15 Q. And where on your headed paper did that logo appear?
16 A. As best I recall, it was probably on the top left side.
17 Q. And you have before you now a document, sir, and you've had the
18 opportunity to review this document during proofing?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And based on your review of the document, does it appear to be an
21 authenticity correspondence from the ECMM head of mission?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, I believe that this is the
24 document. I missed the number of the document, but I believe this is a
25 document that is not on the exhibit list for this witness. It was not
Page 1534
1 identified for this witness previously, and I believe the witness is not
2 an author of this document so I can't -- I can't see the witness
3 authenticating someone else's documents, and I would object to this
4 process.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said you missed a number. The number that I
6 saw is 01027. Are you able to identify it now?
7 MR. IVETIC: I am not -- then I can -- then I can correct what I
8 said. It was first notice to the Defence on 20th of August, 2012, at
9 4.44 p.m. with respect to this witness.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. So it is similar to the
11 earlier one.
12 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: So what is your position now? You're just telling
14 us that. That's all.
15 MR. IVETIC: I'm also objecting to witness authenticating a
16 document that he did not author and did not see previously to come into
17 proofing. It would be a difference if it was a document he saw in the
18 course of his duties, but my understanding of his testimony is he saw it
19 for the first time in proofing.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
21 MS. BOLTON: The jurisprudence of the Tribunal allows, in
22 essence, reliable evidence to come in and we often proffer documents
23 simply through the bar table process and explain where we got the
24 documents. The issue being one of authenticity, this witness is in
25 position as a result of his role to examine the document and to give
Page 1535
1 evidence about the fact that it appears to be an authentic document
2 having reviewed it, and so, in my respectful submission, it should be
3 completely admissible through this document. We certainly cannot call --
4 it has never been the practice of this Tribunal to call the author of
5 every document before it is introduced. That would be an impossibility.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Has this witness been shown the name of the author
7 at the end of the document?
8 MS. BOLTON: He has, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can he be questioned through that part of the
10 document.
11 MS. BOLTON: It won't be of assistance, Your Honour. I can ask
12 him.
13 Q. Do you recognise the name of the gentleman at the end of the
14 document?
15 A. Yes. Oh, at the end -- the person who signed it, no.
16 Q. And at that point in time, March 1993, where were you?
17 A. I was back serving in Ireland, in my home country.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you don't even recognise the signature? You
20 don't know this person [Overlapping speakers] ...
21 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, I don't. I assume this person was
22 the head of the monitoring mission, but he was unknown to me, and I
23 wouldn't have known who it was at that time, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The other problem is that, Madam Bolton, the logo
25 that you referred to on the left-hand corner of the document is black.
Page 1536
1 It doesn't show the 9 -- I don't know whether you said the 9 flags or the
2 9 legs --
3 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Your Honour --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- the transcript said the 9 flags.
5 THE WITNESS: The stars. The stars of the European Union.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, that's another problem. We don't even see
7 that. We do see that it is typed "ECMM headquarters, Hotel I, Zagreb."
8 MS. BOLTON: Yes, Your Honours. All I can say is that this
9 witness has given his evidence with respect to the fact that it looks
10 authentic, and it appears to be on the letterhead notwithstanding the
11 fact that where the -- where he described the logo usually being located
12 that it has not photocopied so that you can see the flags. Again, we
13 proffer documents all the time through bar table motion without anyone
14 saying anything about the apparent authenticity of the document.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, I understand the proffering of
16 exhibits through the bar table. You are not proffering this one through
17 a bar table. You are proffering it through a witness. Odd as that
18 practice might be, that is the practice of the Tribunal. Where parties
19 have failed to tender a document through a witness, they use the wake-up
20 system of the bar table, which I find absolutely odd but that's what
21 happens.
22 Would you like to keep it until then?
23 MS. BOLTON: I take Your Honour's point. And I simply didn't
24 want us to be criticised for not having shown it to this witness who is a
25 representative of the mission. We will seek to tender it through other
Page 1537
1 means.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MS. BOLTON: Those are all my questions, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I make one point to clarify a number. It is
6 recorded in - just a moment - page 55, line 24, that the document, 3344
7 becomes Exhibit P94. In my view that can't be correct, because P94 is a
8 different document.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, what I said was P99 marked for
10 identification, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, the microphone was not activated. I
15 was not sure if you had something to say. You mentioned Mr. Lukic's
16 name.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I mentioned Mr. Ivetic's name. Madam Bolton has
18 said she is turning the witness over to you.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
21 Q. Good day, Colonel Doyle, I have several areas I would like to ask
22 some questions about today to try and better understand your testimony
23 and to clarify some issues that you might have personal knowledge of. I
24 will again remind you that since we speak the same language we both have
25 to try and have a pause between question and answer and vice versa to
Page 1538
1 assist those are that are translating these proceedings.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I add, you should both slow down while
3 speaking. You're very fast speakers.
4 MR. IVETIC: I, for one, am aware of that, and I will endeavour
5 to assist the translators in that regard as well.
6 Q. First of all, sir, I have some questions relating to your role in
7 the European Community Monitoring Mission.
8 You just talked about the headquarters being in Zagreb. What was
9 the genesis of the decision to have the headquarters in Zagreb rather
10 than in the capital of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in
11 Belgrade?
12 A. I have no idea.
13 Q. Okay. Then I would like to move to your role within the
14 European Community Monitoring Mission.
15 In your statement, you describe in paragraph 1 that you hold the
16 rank of lieutenant-colonel after 30 years of service in the
17 Irish Defence Forces. For the sake of establishing context, what rank
18 did you hold in 1991 when you were first deployed to Yugoslavia?
19 A. I held the rank of commandant.
20 Q. And did you receive any promotions in rank or commendations
21 relative to your deployment in the Balkans during the 1990s?
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. In the course of performing your duties with the
24 European Community Monitoring Mission and later as a personal
25 representative for Lord Carrington, did you ever have occasion to meet
Page 1539
1 and/or speak directly with General Ratko Mladic?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. I apologise, I'm waiting for the transcript and the interprets to
4 catch up with us.
5 A. That's fine.
6 Q. While acting in your role first as a monitor and then later as
7 head of mission, were you acting in your military capacity; that is to
8 say, were you subordinated and taking orders from your military superiors
9 within the Irish Defence Forces, or were you taking orders from
10 civilians?
11 A. I was taking orders from the headquarters of the monitor mission.
12 I was not taking any orders from my military headquarters in Ireland.
13 Q. And with respect to yourself, how much briefing or training did
14 you undergo before being deployed to Yugoslavia in 1991?
15 A. I didn't receive any training, but we did receive some general
16 briefings at Irish Defence headquarters. However, we were being deployed
17 at very short notice, and I was one of the first to be deployed. So
18 there was a question of time. It was important.
19 Q. Can you quantify for us the amount of briefing that you received
20 prior to deployment? Are we talking, days, hours, weeks? Any
21 information you can give would be helpful.
22 A. I can't remember exactly, but I would say it was probably a full
23 day of briefings.
24 Q. Did you receive any kind of training or briefing to advise you of
25 the unique constitutional framework of the Socialist Republic of
Page 1540
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina [Realtime transcript read in error "Yugoslavia"] which
2 set it apart from other nations and, in fact, other parts of Yugoslavia?
3 A. Again, I did not receive any training, but the briefing would
4 probably have included those areas. But I don't recall exactly.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I'm just -- I know that the witness has
6 answered. But, Mr. Ivetic, how is the Socialist Federal Republic of
7 Yugoslavia set apart from other parts of Yugoslavia?
8 MR. IVETIC: If I said that, I misspoke, I was asking about the
9 Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I apologise if I
10 misspoke.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. IVETIC:
13 Q. Colonel, now if I can ask you about the rest of the European
14 Community Monitoring Mission personnel that were deployed into
15 Yugoslavia, do you know if they had to undergo a similar type of training
16 or briefing, as did you, prior to being deployed?
17 A. I do not know.
18 Q. Do you at least know whether, prior to deployment, each member
19 state of the European Committee had responsibility for providing its own
20 personnel briefings or information prior to deployment?
21 A. I can't answer that in any great depth. I would suggest, of
22 course, that it would be normal practice for people to be briefed by
23 their home armies or departments prior to deployment.
24 Q. And that -- as part of that briefing that you did receive -- or
25 that you do recall, did it contain briefing of the conflict, as you
Page 1541
1 called it, in Croatia? I think that's at paragraph 5 of your statement.
2 You said your mission was to deter the spread of the conflict from
3 Croatia.
4 Did your briefing include instruction on the conflict in Croatia?
5 A. It would have included a general indication that there was
6 conflict in Croatia with some of the details but probably no specifics.
7 Q. Would your briefing have included an indication or appraisal of
8 who was viewed as the bad guy in the Croatian conflict?
9 A. I really don't think so, because, as I mentioned, I was one of
10 the first Irish officers to be deployed. And, therefore, it was very
11 early in this -- in this conflict.
12 Q. Okay. I'll move on then --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
14 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you can find a convenient moment somewhere.
16 I'm not saying right now. We're due out at 20 past.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I can -- we can could that
18 now. I've --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: We can do that now?
20 MR. IVETIC: Yeah.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 Mr. Doyle, again, another break, another 20-minute break. Please
23 come back at 20 to.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may stand down.
Page 1542
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 20 to 1.00.
3 Court adjourned.
4 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be brought in.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. Colonel Doyle, I now want to ask you, if you were -- at the time
13 that you were first deployed to Yugoslavia spoke any of the local
14 languages of the Yugoslavia with any level of fluency?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Am I correct then that you had to rely on translators for the
17 performance of your duties?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. Who provided the translators? Were they from outside of
20 Yugoslavia or were they locals?
21 A. Initially, the translators that -- or the translator that I
22 worked with was provided by the authorities in Banja Luka, because that's
23 where I was based.
24 Q. Okay. Am I correct then that as you performed your duties you
25 relied upon translators that were provided by either the SDA or the SDS,
Page 1543
1 that is to say, local officials? Or was there a professional corps of
2 translators affixed --
3 A. The first translator I had was a Serb. He was a businessman from
4 Banja Luka. I don't know whether he was a member of a political party or
5 not; I don't know. Afterwards, the monitor mission started to pick some
6 of their own people that they selected themselves rather than having
7 people supplied. I think it differed in various places.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I see we still have your statement up in
9 e-court, if we could stay with that.
10 In paragraph 13 of your statement - and you're welcome to follow
11 along in your hard copy - you state there that:
12 "On 13 October the president of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
13 Mr. Izetbegovic, in a unilateral statement declared a state of
14 neutrality. This meant that the mobilisation was not authorised by the
15 Presidency. The Serbs within the parliament did not accept this
16 situation, and the Serbs within Bosnia continued to be mobilised?"
17 The first question I want to ask you to clear things up, when you
18 say "unilateral" here in your statement, does that mean that the rest of
19 the Bosnian collective Presidency did not join Mr. Izetbegovic's
20 position?
21 A. I don't think I can actually answer that because I don't know. I
22 would assume that because the Presidency was divided ethnically, with
23 different members, that there may have been objections. But the fact
24 that he announced this as the President of the Presidency, I would have
25 assumed that it had been discussed within the Presidency itself. But I'm
Page 1544
1 not sure.
2 Q. And I -- I assume that when you talk about the divided ethnicity
3 of different members, when we talk about the collective Presidency,
4 during this time-period at least, we're talking about Ms. Biljana
5 Plavsic, Mr. Nikola Koljevic, Mr. Fikret Abdic, Mr. Stjepan Kljuc,
6 Mr. Franko Boras, and Mr. Ejup Ganic. Is that your recollection as well?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Now, in the course of your briefing and preparations for
9 deployment to Yugoslavia, did your briefing cover the constitutional
10 makeup of this seven-person Presidency and/or the rules of order and
11 procedure for the same?
12 A. I really can't recall.
13 Q. And did you, in the course of your deployment, either as a --
14 especially as head of mission, ever order any ECMM personnel to ever
15 research the legal framework or rules of order of this collective
16 Presidency and the methods of voting or official acts of this organ?
17 A. The briefings that would have been given to the incoming monitors
18 would have included the makeup of the Presidency of Bosnia, but apart
19 from that, rules of procedure, et cetera, would not have normally been
20 included.
21 Q. Thank you. And were you aware at the time that the -- that the
22 head of the Presidency, Mr. Izetbegovic, that this was a rotating
23 position that was to transfer to other members of the collective
24 Presidency upon a stated term?
25 A. I actually don't know.
Page 1545
1 Q. Am I correct that within the entire time-period that you were
2 deployed in the -- in Yugoslavia that Mr. Izetbegovic remained at the
3 position of the chair and that this was in excess of a year's time?
4 A. Yes, he did.
5 Q. Now, at paragraph 25 of your statement, you indicate that you
6 were to maintain contact with the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina as
7 part of your official duties.
8 Did maintaining contact with the authorities include keeping in
9 contact with the other members of the collective Presidency of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. Yes, it did.
12 Q. And now in relation to the collective Presidency of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I would like to ask you about 65 ter number 10944,
14 which may have gotten a P number now. It's a Prosecution document and
15 was annexed and -- it was originally was an annex to your statement.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's P93, Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: P93. That's correct, Your Honour. Thank you.
18 Q. This document, as we wait for it to come up, I can give you the
19 background on my question. This document, you will recall, is a
20 statement from the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina from the beginning of March 1992. And if we turn to
22 the first page, which we're at now in both languages, Colonel, do you
23 recognise this report relating to the time-period, I believe, the 1st and
24 2nd days of March, 1992?
25 A. Yes, I do.
Page 1546
1 Q. And this wasn't raised in the direct, but this report was
2 actually authored by yourself. Is that accurate?
3 A. This report was written by myself, yes.
4 Q. Now, your report gives the primary cause for tension in the area
5 as the killing of a Serb and wounding of another at a wedding ceremony on
6 29 February 1992. And if we look down further on the page, at item E,
7 there's a demand that the assassins should be caught: Two Muslim, one
8 Croat.
9 Sir, is it your recollection and am I correct that the reference
10 to assassins here relates to the persons who attacked and shot at the
11 Serb wedding that is it blamed for heightening the tensions in Sarajevo?
12 MS. BOLTON: [Microphone not activated].
13 MR. IVETIC: Microphone.
14 MS. BOLTON: Sorry. Thank you. Sorry, my microphone wasn't
15 working.
16 My friend suggested that the document indicates that the primary
17 cause of tension was the shooting at the wedding, and that's not an
18 accurate reflection of what is written in the document. It does indicate
19 tension was heightened as a result of this, but it doesn't say it was the
20 primary cause.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, you do say primary cause at line 9 of
22 page 68.
23 MR. IVETIC: I do see that. Perhaps I can reformulate it and
24 perhaps ask the witness --
25 Q. Would you agree that the shooting at the wedding was a
Page 1547
1 significant factor increasing or heightening the tensions, as this report
2 indicates?
3 A. I -- it was probably a factor, according to the Serbs. But in my
4 profession, it was not the main reason.
5 Q. And now if I can return to the question I had asked. Looking at
6 item E, where it talks about assassins that should be caught and brought
7 to justice, two Muslims and one Croat, am I correct that the assassins
8 here relate to the persons who participated in the attack upon the Serb
9 wedding?
10 A. Yes. But I should add here that the word "assassins" wasn't my
11 word. It was a translation of the exact demands that were laid out by
12 the Bosnian Serbs. So it was their terminology, not mine.
13 Q. Fair enough say. And, for the record, at this time barricades
14 had only gone up in Sarajevo and were not up in the rest of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Isn't that accurate?
16 A. Yes, I would accept that.
17 Q. And the other factor that you list, the referendum, had taken
18 place on the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Would you accept
19 that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. If we could turn to the next page of your report, items A
22 through G. And it's the second page on both languages, I believe.
23 Would -- would you agree with me that this section is your verbatim
24 recitation of the decisions reached by the Bosnian collective Presidency
25 on this occasion?
Page 1548
1 A. As far as I recall, this is what -- these are the terms that were
2 agreed. Whether they were implemented or not, I have no idea.
3 Q. And, in fact, we don't need to turn to the end of the document,
4 but do you recall that the -- that an actual written statement was issued
5 by the Presidency, which you attached to your report?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we could focus on item B here before us. This reflects that
8 the Presidency acknowledged that results of the referendum would not
9 prejudice the structure of BiH currently under discussion -- under the
10 auspices of the EC. These talks to continue as soon as possible.
11 Sir, is the referendum that is being discussed here the
12 referendum on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the talks or discussions that were under way as this
15 indicates under the auspices of the EC, am I correct that these were
16 discussions that were being undertaken in the Bosnian Herzegovinian
17 National Assembly, or parliament, among the various Serb, Muslim and
18 Croat elected officials?
19 A. Well, my understanding is these were the discussions that would
20 have been chaired by the peace conference rather than being discussed
21 inside the parliament because the Serbs had already vacated the
22 parliament and were not part of its structure anymore.
23 Q. And the discussions in the peace negotiations, the Serbs were
24 participating in that process; is that correct?
25 A. Yes. The Serbs were part of -- any time there was peace talks
Page 1549
1 called, the Serbs were part -- party to that, yes.
2 Q. And if we could move to the next page of this document, we see at
3 the end of the report you state that the decisions were reached
4 unanimously by the Presidency. Does that comport with your recollection
5 that all the members of the Presidency unanimously issued these
6 statements?
7 A. Yes, I would accept that.
8 Q. Do you recall if a voting process took place at this session
9 prior to the statements being used?
10 A. No, I have no idea.
11 Q. And now having used the term "unanimous" in this report, does
12 that refresh your recollection when you earlier stated in paragraph 13 of
13 your statement that Mr. Izetbegovic issued a unilateral statement,
14 whether or not there's a difference between the two?
15 A. I really can't answer that because I don't know.
16 Q. Okay. With regards to the mobilisation, I believe you indirectly
17 inferred it in your testimony, but am I correct that anyone who did
18 respond to the mobilisation, whether ethnically a Serb, Croat, Muslim, or
19 one of the other ethnic minorities in Yugoslavia, received armaments as
20 part of the mobilisation. Would you accept that statement?
21 A. I would accept that if they were mobilised that they would have
22 been armed. Whether they would have retained them or not is quite
23 another matter.
24 Q. Okay. Am I correct that as tensions developed in
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, after the declaration of
Page 1550
1 independence, that Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Koljevic, Mr. Abdic, and eventually
2 Mr. Boras all stopped participating in the Bosnian collective Presidency?
3 A. I -- I can't say that for definite. At the subsequent talks,
4 which I would have chaired, it was getting difficult for the Serbs to
5 come to talks because, at this stage, they had moved to Pale. But we
6 continued the normal negotiations by inviting them to attend, and some
7 occasions they did, and many occasions they didn't. And we also include
8 discussions with the JNA on this process.
9 Q. Thank you. What about Mr. Fikret Abdic? Isn't it correct he
10 left for Velika Kladusa?
11 A. No. The very last peace talks that I was involved in Mr. Abdic
12 was present. And that was leading up to -- attempting to get an
13 agreement on the withdrawal of the JNA from the territory of Bosnia. My
14 recollection is he attended those talks.
15 Q. My question was: Did he continue operating as part of the
16 collective Presidency?
17 A. I assume that he did. That would have been my understanding.
18 Q. Would the Serb members of that collective Presidency who were in
19 Pale have continued to maintain their authority as members of the
20 collective Presidency, in your opinion, as well?
21 A. My opinion would be no.
22 Q. Okay. Did you or anyone at the European Community Monitoring
23 Mission investigate the constitutional and/or legal framework to
24 determine whether the authority of these members of the collective
25 Presidency continued or ceased?
Page 1551
1 A. Well, I should point out here that when I returned in
2 mid-April to Bosnia, I was no longer a member of the monitoring mission,
3 so I wouldn't have been party to what they were thinking on that.
4 And in reinforce to the peace conference, I would have understood
5 that people like Jose Cutileiro and Carrington would have been quite
6 familiar with -- were trying to come up to a political solution. But I
7 wasn't party to it at that stage.
8 Q. I appreciate that, sir. If we could move onto another topic.
9 Paragraph 28 of your statement, you talk about the Serbian
10 autonomous areas and a briefing paper that you received on the topic.
11 For the record, that was P98 which was used by the Prosecution.
12 If we could call up P98 so the witness has that in front of him.
13 Sir, am I correct that this briefing document does not contain
14 any detailed discussion about the constitutional authority, authority
15 under the Law on Defence, or any other Yugoslav or Bosnian law upon which
16 the Serbian autonomous regions are said to be founded? Am I correct,
17 therefore, that there was no research performed or that you had no
18 knowledge of these aspects of these autonomous areas?
19 A. I don't have that document --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which aspects, Mr. Ivetic?
21 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. Let me break down the question.
22 Q. I don't see any discussion of the constitutional bases or the
23 bases in laws of Yugoslavia or the Socialist Federative Republic of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina for these autonomous regions discussed in this report
25 or this briefing. Am I correct that there is no analysis of that
Page 1552
1 performed by the European Community Monitoring Mission?
2 A. I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused here. I don't -- is that document
3 supposed to be in front of me?
4 Q. I believe it is. It is P number --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: P number 98.
6 MR. IVETIC: 98. Yes. Briefing paper from the ECMM Regional
7 Mission, Sarajevo, including information on the Serbian autonomous areas
8 and mandate of the ECMM.
9 THE WITNESS: Could I have the page that refers to the autonomous
10 regions because I just have the cover here of it on --
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. Why don't we turn -- I believe it's somewhere in the second page.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what's the date of this document?
14 THE WITNESS: This would have been around February 1992,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was there an entity called the federal --
17 Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time?
18 THE WITNESS: I actually can't recall at this stage.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was there?
20 MR. IVETIC: If I could refresh his recollection.
21 Q. On 7th April, 1992 is when the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was
22 recognised by the EC. Is that correct sir?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So prior to that time, it would have still been part of the
25 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as a socialist federated
Page 1553
1 republic under that republic -- under Yugoslavia. Is that your
2 recollection, sir?
3 A. The document that I have there does not go into any of the
4 backgrounds on the issue of the autonomous regions.
5 Q. If we go to the next page, this is, I believe, the -- is this the
6 second or the third page? Well, if I can ...
7 Perhaps it might be easier to refer to your statement since you
8 do mention this annex in your statement.
9 Paragraph 28 of your statement, sir.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you talk about Annex 3 to this statement. Is this document
12 that we just looked what was Annex 3 --
13 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... I don't think so. This is a private
14 document that I prepared, but there was a separate document on the
15 establishment on the autonomous regions. That could be the document. I
16 don't think that is the correct reference here.
17 MR. IVETIC: For the record, Your Honours, that was disclosed to
18 us as Annex 3 of the statement, so I don't know ...whether there's
19 another document that we have not been --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
21 MS. BOLTON: [Microphone not activated].
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, it doesn't -- my microphone keeps -- the
24 light keeps flashing. It doesn't seem to be working properly. Is it
25 working now?
Page 1554
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. And there's another microphone next to you
2 there, Madam Bolton, if that one doesn't work.
3 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
4 He may be referring what I think are pages 8 and 9 of the
5 document, there's an annex, and I don't know if that's what my friend is
6 looking for or ...
7 MR. IVETIC: I believe it's best to show the witness those pages
8 and see if that's what he was referring to when he mentioned Annex 3 in
9 his statement, as I do not know.
10 So that would be pages 8 and 9 of P98. Sorry.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you see pages 8 and 9 of P98, Mr. Doyle.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can see that now. That's the document, yes,
13 I would have thought it was, yes.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. Thank you for clearing that up.
16 And now in this document, there is no analysis of the prevailing
17 laws of Yugoslavia or the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina upon which these
18 Serbian autonomous regions were said to be founded. Am I accurate in
19 that statement?
20 A. Yes, I agree that there is no -- there's no detail as -- as
21 you -- as you suggest.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. To your knowledge, did anyone at the European
23 Community Monitoring Mission research this topic or obtain a legal
24 opinion on the same?
25 A. I have no idea.
Page 1555
1 Q. I suppose you do have knowledge, since you do mention a crisis
2 committee several times in your written statement, that the Bosnian
3 Muslim SDA had also set up crisis committees during this time-period?
4 A. Yes. When I went into discussions at the time that -- of the
5 referendum I was informed that a crisis committee under Mr. Ganic was
6 sitting to come up with -- referring to some issues.
7 Q. Okay. I would now to ask you a little bit more about the
8 referendum and the negotiations that you referenced on the topic of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina's future which you discuss in paragraphs 41
10 through 55, approximately. I'll take them one by one, but I wanted to
11 give you an idea of where we are in your statement.
12 At paragraph 46 of your statement, you describe how, on
13 30 January, Haris Silajdzic sought and received via yourself the
14 assistance of the European Community Mission to run the referendum on
15 independence. My question for you, sir, is that at the time of this
16 decision to assist the Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats on running the
17 referendum, the constitutionality of the parliamentary vote had not yet
18 been established, had it?
19 A. Can you -- I'm not sure I understand your question, sir. Can
20 you -- can you ...
21 Q. Yes. At the time that the European Community Commission had
22 agreed to assist in the referendum, the parliamentary vote establishing
23 that referendum had not yet been deemed constitutional by any legal body.
24 A. Yes. I sought a meeting with the judiciary of Bosnia on that --
25 on that issue.
Page 1556
1 Q. Okay. Step by step. Am I correct that you were present for the
2 parliamentary debate wherein the referendum issue was adopted by two
3 parts of the body after the Serb delegates had left upon the meeting
4 being closed.
5 In your report, which is 65 ter number 10943, which is not an
6 exhibit, so I think we should call it up. That's 65 ter number 10943.
7 And if we could turn to the last page of that document.
8 And, sir, there's a note there above a signature. First of all,
9 sir, is this a document that you prepared?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. And is this note wherein you -- wherein it is stated:
12 "It is expected that the legality of the Assembly being
13 reconvened after it was closed by the Assembly president may be
14 questioned as may the authority of the president of the Assembly to
15 conclude the session without a majority in the first place."
16 A. Yes, they're my words.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you.
18 Am I correct that as you state in paragraph 43 of your statement
19 on the 27th of January, you went to the constitutional court of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina to try and get an affirmation from that court on the
21 legality of this vote?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And, to be fair, I'd like to supplement your summary from this
24 paragraph of your statement with your actual testimony in another
25 proceeding and ask you if still stand by it.
Page 1557
1 MR. IVETIC: This is transcript page --
2 Well, first of all, I think -- Your Honours, if I can have the
3 instructions of the Chamber. I have this particular transcript in
4 e-court, and I can show to the witness via e-court so that he has it in
5 front of him. I do not intend to tender obviously a transcript from
6 another proceeding as that would be voluminous.
7 Would that method be appropriate, to have it on the screen while
8 I read it?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. Just that page would be appropriate. And
10 if you would let us know in which case that was. Or let the witness
11 know.
12 MR. IVETIC: I will, Your Honour. That is in the Karadzic
13 proceedings on the 26th of May, 2010. Transcript page 2765 through 2766.
14 And, Madam Registrar, that is 65 ter number 1D118. And it is
15 page 76 and 77 in the e-court.
16 Q. And I believe your answer begins at line 17 in the middle of the
17 page, sir.
18 And if you just follow along with me, and I'll start by quoting:
19 "I think to clarify this point, Your Honour, I would just like to
20 say that at the conclusion of this marathon session of the Assembly, I
21 compiled a report to -- to my headquarters and that report gave a general
22 outline as I understood it to be of what the issues were. I was
23 sufficiently concerned to put in that report the fact that according to
24 the Bosnian Serbs there was a requirement for an agreement to be done by
25 consensus, whereas, most of the people in the parliament seem to be going
Page 1558
1 along the line of where they are going to pass a referendum if they had a
2 majority. What that majority was, I wasn't sure [sic]. I wasn't aware.
3 MR. IVETIC: Sorry.
4 Q. "But I did put down ..." --
5 And now we have to go to the next page to continue:
6 "... that maybe this is something that needed to be checked out
7 legally. So as a consequence of that, I sought a meeting with the
8 supreme legal court, or whatever, of Bosnia, and I met with them the
9 following day to find out whether or not the allegations by the Bosnian
10 Serbs that this referendum debate was constitutional."
11 And here, sir, am I correct that the argument would have been
12 that it was unconstitutional. Is that your recollection? Is this an
13 error in the transcript?
14 A. It would have been -- it would have been the assertion by the
15 Bosnian Serbs that it was not constitutional because it wasn't an
16 agreement by consensus.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 A. And that's why I sought the meeting with the judiciary, to have
19 them explain to me what their views were.
20 Q. And, sir, the parts that we've read up until to you, do you agree
21 that that is now - with the one correction - an accurate assessment of
22 your recollections of this [Overlapping speakers] ...
23 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Am I correct that after having a meeting with the
25 senior judicial bodies of Bosnia-Herzegovina, they could not give you a
Page 1559
1 definitive answer on the legality of this referendum?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And am I correct then that the assistance agreed to be given to
4 Mr. Silajdzic was undertaken without any legal opinion as to the legality
5 of the referendum?
6 A. Well, I know that the European Union agreed to assist the -- the
7 process of -- of the referendum, so I -- I can't speak for the
8 European Union on this. But I understand your point, yes, and I think
9 that's a fair comment.
10 Q. Are you aware of any research being performed either as part of
11 your mission or further up the chain as to this topic?
12 A. No, I do not.
13 Q. You had already expressed your concerns to your superiors about
14 the legality of this decision on -- to have a referendum. Can we then,
15 therefore -- is it safe to say that someone overruled your concerns
16 further up the chain?
17 A. Well, I put my concerns in the report the concerns that I
18 had that I refer to there. What was done with that, or how that was
19 countered, I simply don't know.
20 Q. Fair enough. And we already talked about the fact that
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognised by the European Community on
22 7 April 1992. At that time, was there any change in status as to the
23 existence of a legal opinion about the legality of the referendum?
24 A. Not to my knowledge.
25 Q. And had there been any change expressed by the Presidency of
Page 1560
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina to amend their prior statement which you recorded in
2 the document we looked at earlier from the 2nd of March, 2012, where they
3 unanimously stated that the referendum could not prejudice the structure
4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. Not to my knowledge.
6 Q. Did you recommend to your headquarters or your superiors that at
7 any point in time that the referendum was legal?
8 A. No. I simply felt my duty was to bring up the concerns that were
9 being expressed. How they were dealt with or what final decision was
10 made was outside my remit. So, according, I didn't make any
11 recommendation of my own.
12 Q. At paragraph 54 of your statement, you indicate that you had
13 asked the members of the Presidency what would happen in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina would be recognised. And you're quoted in your
15 statement as saying:
16 "The members of the Bosnian Presidency all said the same thing.
17 They said that they believed the Bosnian Serbs would not be happy with
18 this recognition but that they would come around to accept it ..."
19 Am I correct that what you really meant to say here was that
20 the -- that -- that you spoke with Mr. Izetbegovic and that he said these
21 words?
22 A. Yes, I would agree with that. Yes.
23 Q. You, in fact, did not have contact with the other Presidency
24 members, did you?
25 A. No. Except that I -- no, I had contact with Mr. Karadzic over
Page 1561
1 this issue.
2 Q. Thank you. And ... and the report that you sent to your
3 superiors as to this -- or at that point in time it was
4 Ambassador Cutileiro who was asking. The report you sent back to him
5 would have clearly indicated that it was only Mr. Izetbegovic who had
6 said that the Serbs would accept and that they would eventually accept
7 this situation?
8 A. Yes. The -- I remember distinctly mentioning Mr. Izetbegovic and
9 Radovan Karadzic.
10 Q. Am I correct then, sir, that -- that the recognition of -- well,
11 strike that.
12 You -- at what time did you leave the ECMM? That was March the
13 20th, is that accurate?
14 A. Yes, around that time I returned to Ireland.
15 Q. At that time had the decision on recognition already been
16 unofficially reached?
17 A. I don't actually recall. I don't recall.
18 Q. Did you ever make a recommendation in regards to recognition?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. Thank you. From your statement and your testimony, we've
21 mentioned Mr. Alija Izetbegovic several times. Would it be a fair
22 assessment to state that you had frequent contacts with either him or his
23 office?
24 A. Yes. Because there was a liaison office established to assist
25 our mission which was based in the Presidency. So any time I would go
Page 1562
1 down there, which was quite frequently, I would often meet the president.
2 As, indeed, I would meet other members of the Presidency who had offices
3 there.
4 Q. Would it be fair to say that you were also familiar with
5 Safet Hadzic, the president of the Sarajevo Crisis Committee?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And did your contacts with Mr. Izetbegovic and other members of
8 his office continue when you became Lord Carrington's representative
9 on --
10 A. Yes, they did.
11 Q. In both of your capacities, both at the ECMM and as part of
12 Lord Carrington's -- as -- advisor -- representative to Lord Carrington,
13 did you have occasion to have contact with an individual by the name
14 Sefer Halilovic?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Are you aware of Mr. Halilovic having been the Chief of
17 Staff of the Bosnian Muslim armed forces that were -- at that
18 time [Overlapping speakers] ...
19 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, I was aware of that.
20 Q. Okay. Now, how -- well, you already said frequently.
21 Let me ask you this question then, sir. In the course of your
22 interactions with Mr. Izetbegovic, did you -- did you rely upon
23 information received for them as part of your conclusions and, in
24 particular, I want to direct your attention to paragraph 15 of your
25 statement. That's the third page in English. And maybe I should read
Page 1563
1 it, which part I'm focussing on.
2 "The community was becoming aware that one section of the
3 population, namely the Serbs, were becoming armed. The federal army was
4 also becoming very much a Serbian army."
5 And my question for you: Am I correct that this conclusion is
6 part based on communications and information you would have received from
7 officials, such as Mr. Izetbegovic and other members of the SDA?
8 A. Yes. It would have come from the monitor mission primarily that
9 I was the head of because we had teams deployed throughout the republic,
10 and then it would come from various political members of the Presidency
11 as well.
12 Q. And for the sake of clarity, when you say here "the community,"
13 are we talking here about the European Community?
14 A. Yes, I would say that, yes.
15 Q. And would you agree that this assessment in paragraph 15 would
16 have been applicable to the time-period up until approximately
17 20 March 1992 when you left that position?
18 A. Yes. Because early in 1992, we -- the monitor mission was
19 involved in monitoring the withdrawal of federal -- the federal army from
20 Croatia, and the concern of the mission was that if the JNA was being
21 withdrawn from Croatia, where were those JNA units going to end up and
22 had that been agreed in Croatia itself, which I couldn't establish.
23 Q. Fair enough. I'd like to present to you some excerpts from the
24 sworn statement of General Sefer Halilovic given to the Office of the
25 Prosecutor in 1996. It's in e-court as 1D00173. And I'd like to present
Page 1564
1 you some aspects dealing from this time-period that we've just discussed
2 in 1992 and relating to these same SDA officials who were -- or one of
3 the sources for your conclusions in paragraph 15.
4 At the bottom of page 2 in the English. Yeah, there it is.
5 MR. IVETIC: This would be appear to be the French. I apologise.
6 One moment.
7 It appears that the French has been uploaded alongside the
8 English. If we could turn to the 26th page in e-court. There we go.
9 That's the English portion of this.
10 And now if we could turn to the next page in the English. And at
11 the bottom of the page --
12 Q. Sir, if I could direct your attention to the last paragraph where
13 General Halilovic says, and I quote now:
14 "My work was approved by Izetbegovic himself, and on
15 2 December 1991, I presented my plan during a meeting in Hrasnica. At
16 the meeting that day were: Alija Izetbegovic; two ministers, Munir Jahic
17 and Resad Bektic; as well as the president of the Sarajevo Crisis
18 Committee, Safet Hadzic, and his deputy Mirsad Kebo; plus Safet and Rahim
19 Baltic and Suljo Kepidja."
20 If we could turn to the next page because it continues just one
21 line thereafter.
22 I quote again:
23 "During the meeting of 2 December 1991, in addition to the
24 approval of my defence plan, another important decision was taken:
25 Designations of the headquarters of the Patriotic League."
Page 1565
1 Sir, first of all, do you recognise the names of these other
2 officials who are indicated with Mr. Izetbegovic? Are any of
3 them [Overlapping speakers] ...
4 A. No. None of them were familiar to me.
5 Q. Did, either in your time with the ECMM or later working with
6 Lord Carrington, did the SDA officials that you had contact with ever
7 talk about the Patriotic League or headquarters of the Patriotic League
8 which they had established?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Can I take it from that, sir, that you were not informed at that
11 time that you were in Bosnia about the existence of a so-called Patriotic
12 League founded by the SDA?
13 A. I was aware that there was an organisation called the Patriotic
14 League, but the details of it, no.
15 Q. If we can scroll down to the bottom of this page, I'd like to
16 draw your attention, then, to some other factors. The last two lines on
17 this page, going onto the -- going onto a couple lines on the next page:
18 "It was obvious that the war was unavoidable, and on our side,
19 in order to confront the situation, we were trying to secure weapons
20 quickly at that time.
21 "This [sic] task had been entrusted to Cengic Hasan, who was a
22 member of the General Staff of the political branch of the
23 Patriotic League, as I have told you. In order to carry out that task,
24 he had set up a group of people responsible for supplying us with
25 weapons. The group had succeeded in obtaining some on the black market
Page 1566
1 in Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary, and Germany. And according to what I can
2 imagine, this was made possible through funds which arrived from abroad,
3 particularly from the countries of the Middle East with which Cengic had
4 relations."
5 Colonel Doyle, in the course of performing your duties, did
6 Mr. Izetbegovic or anyone else at the SDA advise you about the activities
7 of Mr. Hasan Cengic and the funds coming from abroad for the SDA to
8 obtain weapons?
9 A. The only thing I can say about that is that Mr. Ejub Ganic was
10 the only member of the Presidency to come to me and say that the Muslims
11 were desperate to get some weapons because they were completely
12 out-armed, we'll say, by Serbs. In other words, I was very conscious of
13 the fact that there was a desire by the Muslims to get weapons because
14 access to them, weapons was very difficult to achieve.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. But the details here I'm not familiar with, no.
17 Q. If we could scroll down to the third paragraph from the bottom.
18 This is, I believe, the last part I want to show you from Mr. Halilovic's
19 sworn statement, so please bear with me, sir.
20 "Izetbegovic is the one who personally authorised Cengic to do
21 the work of supplying us with weapons. He could do whatever he wanted,
22 and since secret business deals were involved, no accounting records were
23 kept on the Bosnian side. In this way, tens of millions of dollars
24 transited through Cengic's hands without any type of control whatsoever.
25 "Throughout the initial period of our defence restructuring, that
Page 1567
1 is, starting from December 1991, and continuing until the beginning of
2 April 1992, Cengic was able to organise the arms deals from which he made
3 enormous personal profit [sic]. No one could oppose him because he had
4 the moral backing of Izetbegovic."
5 Colonel, did Mr. Izetbegovic or any of the SDA officials ever
6 brief you or advise you that they had, already, as of December 1991
7 undertaken a campaign to obtain weaponry which involved tens of millions
8 of dollars?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Am I correct that at the time you were giving your statement to
11 the Office of the Prosecutor and, in particular, paragraph 15 of the
12 same, you did not have this -- any of this information?
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 Q. Would you agree with me that such information about steps taken
15 to arm one side of the conflict and preparations for war rather than
16 peace would have been important factors that were relevant to your
17 mission and responsibilities both while at the ECMM and Lord Carrington's
18 representative?
19 A. Well, I would say that, as I had mentioned before, I didn't feel
20 it was part of my remit to go into the details of weapons and amounts of
21 weapons because I wanted to maintain the trust from all sides. And I
22 would express surprise that this seems to have been organised back in
23 December 1991.
24 Other than that, I really don't have a comment.
25 Q. There was a reference to secret transactions. Do you feel that
Page 1568
1 the SDA authorities that you were dealing with were keeping this
2 information secret from the international observers?
3 MS. BOLTON: Excuse me, Your Honours. I don't know how this
4 witness is supposed to speculate about what was in the minds of the SDA
5 leadership.
6 MR. IVETIC: Let me rephrase the question, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. Please do, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. In the course your contacts with other international monitors,
10 both in the -- both the successors when you left the ECMM and other
11 organisations such as UNPROFOR, and I believe, also at the time there was
12 at least one other mission on the ground, the OSCE, I believe, had a
13 mission as well, did you ever hear from any of them any information of
14 this nature that -- that preparations were made as far as back as
15 December 1991 by the SDA to obtain armaments and prepare for war?
16 A. No, none of the detail. We assumed that all sides were trying to
17 get weapons because of the fears that were amongst the population. But
18 the detail I have no knowledge of, no.
19 Q. Okay.
20 If we can now turn to another document, an interview by Mr. --
21 General Sefer Halilovic.
22 MR. IVETIC: One moment, please, Your Honours.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. IVETIC: The document in question is 1D00167 in e-court, and
25 I have just one selection from that document to present to the witness,
Page 1569
1 and that is at page 3 of the interview.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 MR. IVETIC: And it's the middle of the third paragraph on this
4 page, in the middle.
5 Q. The part I want to draw your attention to, it starts off:
6 "From 2nd of December onward, we started organising the rest of
7 the country, and we organised, we established nine regional HQ. Eight
8 besides Sarajevan, 98 municipal HQ, and a number of logistics, the
9 diversionists, entire diversionist units et cetera, the units necessary
10 for waging war.
11 "Before the beginning of the war, we had 126.000 organised men.
12 According to our estimate, although we didn't have exact data, these are
13 the approximate data and they are quite accurate. There were 80.000
14 armed men. That's the situation by the end of March."
15 Sir, as far as we're still talking about 1991 to March 1992, the
16 period when you were still with the ECMM, to your knowledge, did your
17 monitors report to you of such a situation in the municipalities, that is
18 to say, where the Bosnian Muslim Patriotic League of the SDA had
19 established 98 municipal headquarters and had 80.000 men under arms and
20 126.000 organised men ready to make war?
21 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, we haven't obviously had the luxury of
22 seeing this document until Defence started cross-examining on it, and he
23 just put to the witness that this has to do with the Patriotic League. I
24 can't tell from the excerpt that's on the screen if that's an accurate
25 statement or not of the evidence, and so I see by the time, perhaps we're
Page 1570
1 coming towards the end of the session, if I could have the opportunity to
2 look at the documents obviously overnight, I can indicate whether or not
3 I think the question is fair tomorrow.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, we just got -- the previous
6 document by Mr. Halilovic talked about this. It said that his task was
7 to create headquarters for the Patriotic League, and now he's talking
8 about the number of those headquarters. But I leave it up to
9 Your Honours. It doesn't matter who established them. I'm asking
10 whether this situation was on the ground.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, you even didn't put on the record
12 what kind of document that we are looking at.
13 MR. IVETIC: I apologise --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Overlapping speakers] ... just mentioned a number
15 of a document, but nobody knows what it is about.
16 MR. IVETIC: I mentioned it was being an interview of
17 Mr. Halilovic, Your Honour. I thought I had. I apologise if I had not.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: An interview to whom? When was it taken?
19 MR. IVETIC: I would love to know, Your Honour. This is how it
20 was disclosed to us by the Prosecution. Without that information.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are using it, and we would like to know a
22 little bit more about the provenance of this document.
23 MR. IVETIC: There is apparently no translation, Your Honours,
24 into B/C/S.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have heard, Mr. Mladic.
Page 1571
1 The B/C/S booth, can we get help? We are told there is no
2 translation into B/C/S.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The B/C/S booth is working fine, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, ma'am.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Obviously Madam Bolton says she's seeing
7 this document for the first time, and she would like to be able to make
8 sure that she's on firm ground if she does object or whether she doesn't
9 have an objection to make. It's time to stop.
10 Would that be a convenient time to stop?
11 And we can start with Madam Bolton tomorrow to tell us whether
12 she has gone through the document.
13 MR. IVETIC: That would be fine, Your Honour. I would just only
14 add that since this is a document that came from the Office of the
15 Prosecution, if she could also advise us of its provenance and give us
16 the information that Judge Fluegge was asking for, since that is
17 information that is not in the possession of the Defence and is
18 information that I would be interested in.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I'm not quite sure whether, at this stage,
20 when it is now being tendered by the Defence, it's the responsibility of
21 the Prosecution to tell us about its provenance, which provenance was not
22 sought when the document was received by you.
23 I suggest that you sort that out outside court, and if you still
24 need to -- the question of the provenance, we can talk about it tomorrow
25 too.
Page 1572
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Doyle.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to warn you that you -- we are going to break
7 now until tomorrow. Because you're still in the witness box, you may not
8 discuss the case with anybody, least of all anybody from the Prosecution.
9 THE WITNESS: Certainly, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Until you are excused from further testifying.
11 As from tomorrow, we are scheduled to start at 9.30 and not at
12 9.00, so be back here tomorrow morning at 9.30 in the morning. Same
13 courtroom.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused. You may stand down.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: We stand adjourned to 9.00 -- 9.30 in the morning
20 tomorrow morning. Same courtroom.
21 Court adjourned.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of August,
24 2012, at 9.30 a.m.
25