120827ED

Page 1642

1 Monday, 27 August 2012

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this

6 courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Unless there are any preliminaries, is the Prosecution ready to

12 call its next witness, which, we do understand, is Witness RM115.

13 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, the Prosecution is. And may I

14 take this opportunity to introduce the Chamber to Rachel Hochhauser.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome into the courtroom, Ms. Hochhauser.

16 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Good morning, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know how to pronounce it, Hochhauser or

18 Hochhauser.

19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Either will do, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

21 If you are ready, then could the witness be escorted into the

22 courtroom. Protective measures are there. Face distortion, voice

23 distortion, pseudonym Witness RM115. And may I remind the parties that

24 to the extent necessary to protect the identity of the witness, that they

25 should apply for closed session.

Page 1643

1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, as the witness is being brought

2 in, if I could just note that on Friday P99 was marked for identification

3 pending translation. It is has now been translated and is uploaded into

4 e-court, so we would ask that it be admitted.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against the admission of P99?

6 No objections.

7 P99 the document is admitted into evidence.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Witness RM115.

10 Good morning, Witness RM115. Can you hear me in a

11 language you understand?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require

14 that you make a solemn declaration, that you'll speak the truth, the

15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 Now, first of all, the screens will be up and I explain to you

17 that you testify under protective measures, which means we are not using

18 your name, your face will not be shown to the outside world, your voice,

19 your own voice, will not be heard by the outside world, and to the extent

20 the content of your testimony would be at risk to reveal your identity,

21 then the parties are instructed to ask for closed session.

22 Is that clear, Witness RM115?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, could I invite you to make a solemn

25 declaration. If you would prefer to remain seated, no problem, there's

Page 1644

1 no formal rule which requires you to stand.

2 Could you please make the solemn declaration that you'll speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The usher will

4 hand out the text to you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, Witness RM115, do solemnly

6 declare that I shall speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

7 the truth. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.

9 Mr. Groome.

10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just in an abundance of caution, I

11 know that there has been technological updates in this court, but

12 typically when witnesses have had voice distortion we've seen another

13 microphone on the podium. I do not see that now. I'm just inquiring

14 whether it's no longer necessary or has there been an omission.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think my microphone was switched off already

16 automatically a couple of times, but may I remind everyone: If the

17 witness speaks, please switch off your ...

18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: And I do understand that a new technology allows for

20 using one microphone even when voice is in place.

21 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, this is just confirmed to me by the

23 Registry.

24 Ms. Hochhauser, if you're ready, please proceed.

25 Witness RM115, you'll first be examined by Ms. Hochhauser.

Page 1645

1 Ms. Hochhauser is counsel for the Prosecution. Listen carefully to her

2 questions and please answer them.

3 Ms. Hochhauser.

4 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 WITNESS: RM115

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

8 Q. Good morning, Witness.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. Can I please ask to begin with that the Court Usher show this

11 witness the pseudonym sheet which has been marked with 65 ter number

12 28344.

13 And, Witness, are you able to see what's on the monitor in front

14 of you?

15 A. I see this thing here. It's not in Bosnian. It's in English.

16 And then I see this other thing there, and that's my last name.

17 Q. Okay. Does -- does what is in front of you on the monitor, does

18 it list your name and your date of birth? Or, I'm sorry, I'm actually

19 looking at what is up on the monitor. Does it correctly list just your

20 name?

21 A. There should be another diacritic above the letter C.

22 Q. And with that exception, does that correctly list your name, with

23 the exception of the missing diacritic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 1646

1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I would ask that the pseudonym

2 sheet be tendered into evidence. Under seal.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.

4 Madam Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28344 becomes Exhibit P101,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: P101 is admitted under seal.

8 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Okay.

9 Q. Witness, did you give a statement in 2008 and sign the English

10 version of that statement; do you recall that?

11 A. I signed it, but this gentleman said that I should sign this

12 proof that he had read it out to me in Bosnian.

13 Q. Okay. And in 2010, were you shown an actual Bosnian -- B/C/S

14 version of that same statement?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'd ask, please, if the usher could put 65 ter

17 number 28345 in the B/C/S version, please, on the monitor but not to be

18 broadcast outside of the courtroom. And it's a statement dated 4 of

19 November 2008.

20 Q. Okay. Do you recognise what's on the monitor in front of you?

21 A. I recognise my signature. I see ...

22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And to be clear, can we actually see page 5 in

23 e-court, the last page of this exhibit, shown to the witness.

24 Q. And do you recognise your signature on that page?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 1647

1 Q. And, ma'am, the B/C/S version of your 2008 statement was signed

2 by you in -- on April 22nd of 2010; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, at that time, in 2010, when you were shown the Bosnian --

5 the B/C/S version of your statement, did you also the chance to make

6 corrections to the statement?

7 A. Well, there were some corrections, but right now I do not see

8 them displayed.

9 Q. Okay. Now, I'd ask the usher, please, to place on the monitor -

10 also not to be broadcast outside of the courtroom - 65 ter 28346.

11 And, ma'am, do you recognise what is on the monitor in front of

12 you? Do you see your signature on that addendum?

13 A. I see my signature here. That is my signature. But I do not see

14 the text itself. The print is a bit small.

15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Is there a way to enlarge the print, please, for

16 the witness?

17 Q. Are you able now to see it?

18 A. I can read it now.

19 Q. Now, did you have the opportunity -- well, withdraw.

20 Let me first ask. Do you recognise the text as well now?

21 A. Yes. But this thing here, Cicin Han -- well, yes. It's right

22 now. Before it was different, but now it's right. Yes, that is the

23 correction made.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I do not receive translation at this moment, but ...

25 Yes, yes. Now I see there was the -- the plug was not -- was

Page 1648

1 moved slightly.

2 I read from the transcript what the witness said.

3 Please proceed.

4 MS. HOCHHAUSER:

5 Q. Witness, did you have the opportunity last Wednesday to look for

6 the first time at a B/C/S translation of this addendum before you that's

7 on the monitor now? To look at the B/C/S version for the first time.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And are there any corrections that you would make to that

10 addendum, having now read it in B/C/S?

11 A. I haven't read it yet. I do apologise. Just give me another

12 minute.

13 Q. Take as much time as you need.

14 A. It says here "pucajte," but he actually said "tucite Velusice,"

15 fired Velusici.

16 Q. And so the -- I'm sorry, can you repeat, please. What should the

17 addendum in front of you say accurately so that it accurately reflects

18 what you said?

19 A. This is what it should say in the fourth paragraph: Mladic said

20 "tucite Velusice." That is what he said. Over here what is written is

21 "pucajte." It should be "tucite."

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: If the interpreters could give us the --

23 THE INTERPRETER: T-u-c-i-t-e, and the interpretation is the one

24 provided, fired at Velusice.

25 MS. HOCHHAUSER:

Page 1649

1 Q. Ma'am, are you make a distinction between the two words used in

2 the B/C/S language in that sentence that's in quotations "at Velusice,"

3 the word that comes before, whether it's "fire" or "hit"?

4 A. Yes, there is a difference. "Pucajte" is one thing, you can

5 shoot and fire, but "tucite" to my mind means kill everyone. That's how

6 I see it.

7 Q. And just to be clear, what is it that the statement -- which word

8 should it say in order to accurately reflect your testimony, your

9 evidence?

10 A. Instead of "pucajte" it should say "tucite."

11 Q. So -- except for the change that you've just told the Chamber

12 that you would make to that addendum that you've just explained, do both

13 of these documents that you've seen now today, 65 ter 28345 and 28346, do

14 those two statements together contain an accurate account of your

15 evidence?

16 A. Yes, except for that one word. It's different in relation to

17 what I had said.

18 Q. Now, if you were asked the same questions today that you were

19 asked when you gave those statements, would you give the same answers?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And now that you've taken the solemn declaration before this

22 Chamber, do you affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of these statements?

23 A. Yes. But that one word that was changed. Well, as for the rest,

24 it's all right and I have nothing to add to that. It's all the way I

25 said it the first time.

Page 1650

1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, at this time, the Prosecution

2 tenders 65 ter 28345 and 28346, respectively the 4 November 2008

3 statement and its addendum dated 22 April 2010, along with the associated

4 exhibits into evidence. And in light of the protective measures ordered

5 by this Chamber, we would ask that they be placed under seal.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I am looking at the Defence. No objections.

7 Madam Registrar, do we have a full list of the associated

8 exhibits or are there just the two?

9 THE REGISTRAR: I can assign numbers for two documents used now

10 and later file a memo with the associated exhibits.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps that's the most practical thing. How many

12 numbers should be reserved? Are there two? Is this 49965 and 9965.1?

13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honour, it is just the two -- the two

14 exhibits. That's correct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Just the two exhibits. Perhaps we assign numbers to

16 all of them first.

17 The 4th of November 2008 statement, although signed on the

18 22nd of April, 2010, would receive number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: So document 28345 will receive -- becomes

20 Exhibit P102, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal.

22 The next one is the addendum to the statement dated the 22nd of

23 April, 2010, and signed on that same day.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28346 becomes Exhibit P103,

25 Your Honours.

Page 1651

1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal. Then we have 65 ter number

2 9965, a medical record.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P104, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal. Then 65 ter 9965.1, newspaper

5 articles.

6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No, I'm sorry. I apologise, Your Honour, if I

7 may. But the next one the people -- the Prosecution is offering is

8 28057.

9 JUDGE ORIE: 28057 --

10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- is recorded in partial transcript of media

12 broadcast. Is that, Ms. Hochhauser, what you're referring to?

13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honour. On the exhibit list provided

14 it's the two non-shaded exhibits that are actually being offered.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is that -- 28057, Madam Registrar, receives?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P105, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: P105. Any need to have it under seal.

18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No, 28057 should not be under seal, but P104

19 should be.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think P104. Now I'm a bit ...

21 Yes, P104 is admitted into evidence under seal. P105 is admitted

22 into evidence. Please proceed.

23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 If we may go into private session.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

Page 1653

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 MS. HOCHHAUSER:

9 Q. Witness, on the night of 28th May, 1992, into the morning hours

10 of 29th May, 1992, were you in the hospital in Sarajevo in the Marin Dvor

11 neighbourhood?

12 A. Yes. That was the former military hospital, and I was at work

13 there.

14 Q. When you say it's the former military hospital, of which

15 military?

16 A. Of the Army of the former Yugoslavia. It was a military

17 hospital. I worked in that hospital as a civilian.

18 Q. Now, in your -- actually, let me ask. On the -- at the time

19 time-period that we're talking in May of 1992, was there -- was there any

20 military use or military personnel in that hospital?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you explain that?

23 A. There were military personnel in the hospital. Then they

24 requested to leave and go to the other side, whoever wanted to leave,

25 left. And whoever didn't want to leave remained in the hospital.

Page 1654

1 However, when they left the hospital, they subsequently shelled the

2 hospital and targeted everyone else mercilessly because they had remained

3 in the hospital.

4 Q. And, ma'am, those -- those people that you're describing as

5 having stayed, they were members -- they remained although they were

6 members of which military?

7 A. The people who stayed, stayed there to work. The soldiers

8 weren't there, they left. They remained there to stay and work in the

9 hospital as hospital staff, medical staff.

10 Q. So are you -- are you speaking of doctors and nurses and other --

11 other people doing medical work in the hospital?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So in May of 1992, were there any armed soldiers or ammunition

14 stores or anything like that? Any active military use of the hospital

15 that you were aware of.

16 A. I know nothing about that. All I know is that we treated the

17 wounded, the treatment was provided, but as for weapons and military

18 purpose, I know nothing about that. There were porters, of course, who

19 were just standing outside because every hospital had such porters. But

20 I know nothing about these operations that you have mentioned.

21 Q. And the -- the employees of the hospital who remained to continue

22 their medical work, were they both Serb and -- were they both Bosnian

23 Serb and other ethnicities?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. Now, in your 2008 statement, at paragraph 4, you describe hearing

Page 1655

1 Mr. Mladic on the radio the night before you were injured.

2 Can you tell the Chamber whether there is a reason that this

3 radio broadcast stood out in your mind?

4 A. Well, that night was a fatal one for me, and I will never forget

5 it, for as long as I am alive.

6 Q. And how do you know that the voice on the radio was Mr. Mladic?

7 A. Well, we had previously seen him on television. He was in

8 command, and he had a very recognisable voice. Even a small child could

9 recognise his voice because that man really issued orders for shelling

10 and so on and so forth. There was no doubt about that.

11 Q. Now, have you had the opportunity to hear again the -- the whole

12 radio broadcast that you describe in your statement?

13 A. Yes. Later, it was shown on television, and when we have the

14 anniversary at the hospital it's also broadcast. It was a terrible day

15 for us victims and for the hospital. This is something that cannot be

16 forgotten.

17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would now ask Ms. Stewart to play just two

18 short segments of what's been marked now as P105, and she will be playing

19 it in sanction. So that is the introduction from 7 minutes, 30 seconds

20 to 8 minutes, 58 seconds, and then intercept 11 from 17.15 to 18.17. The

21 accompanying transcript should be visible on the screen while it plays.

22 [Video-clip played]

23 [Technical difficulty]

24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I don't know if anyone else is hearing anything?

25 No.

Page 1656

1 JUDGE ORIE: I do not hear anything.

2 [Video-clip played]

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 [Video-clip played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We have obtained a recording from

6 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Territorial Defence Staff of an

7 order for attack on Sarajevo from General Ratko Mladic and

8 Colonel Mirko Vukasinovic. You will hear, viewers and listeners, because

9 our news program will be rebroadcast later by Radio Bosnia-Herzegovina,

10 how targets in Sarajevo, Bascarsija, Pofalici, Velesici, Marin Dvor,

11 Didzikovac, the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Presidency, and vital

12 facilities in our city are selected. All types of weapons are being used

13 to fire. 82 and 122-millimetre mortar shells, 155-millimetre gun shells

14 and rockets. Officers are given orders in code, and Muslims -- and

15 Muslim names such as Fadil, Zijo, and Mustafa are usually used. The

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina Territorial Defence Staff has discovered that

17 Mustafa is in fact Veljko Stojanovic, a Colonel of Lukavica, who shells

18 the Aerodrom estate, the airport estate, and

19 Dobrinja. And Zijo is Lieutenant-Colonel Ivan Milosev, the commander of

20 the Vrace battery, and his assistant, Dragan Petkovic. These are names

21 that shall be remembered by today's inhabitants of Sarajevo and it's

22 future generations.

23 "Just a second. Okay."

24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would ask that when intercept, which is

25 coming next, is actually played, that the interpreters not interpret it

Page 1657

1 so that we can hear the voices of the actual speakers. And the

2 transcript should be still running with it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The first one is to be played without

4 interpretation.

5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes. And that's the -- that is intercept 11,

6 at 17.15 to 18.17.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We will first listen to that.

8 Is there any agreement between the parties whether the transcript

9 and the translation, as it appears on our screens, accurately reflects

10 what was said? Is there any dispute about this?

11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I'm not aware of a dispute.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No dispute.

13 JUDGE ORIE: No dispute about the accuracy of the text of the

14 transcript and the translation of it. Thank you for that.

15 Now, the problem is that the speaker who says no dispute is not

16 identified on the transcript.

17 Could you again confirm.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence counsel

19 Miodrag Stojanovic.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Now we have a complete record of the agreement

21 between the parties in this respect. And intercept 11 may be played.

22 [Intercept played]

23 MS. HOCHHAUSER:

24 Q. Witness --

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: Just a moment please.

Page 1658

1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I apologise.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due

4 respect, I've been informed that the first couple of questions weren't

5 heard by my client.

6 Could the first few interventions, sentences of this intercept be

7 played again.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we play the whole of intercept 11

9 again.

10 Mr. Mladic, be attentive. It will start soon.

11 [Intercept played]

12 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.

13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Now, Witness, you've told us that you've heard the entire radio

15 broadcast containing many more intercepts than the one that was just --

16 the small excerpt that was just played for you. But the one that we've

17 just heard, is that what -- is that what you specifically describe in

18 paragraph 4, when you talk about hearing him talk about Velesici? And

19 excuse my mispronunciation.

20 A. Yes. Fire on Velesici.

21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honours, may we

22 go into private session, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 1663

1 Witness RM115, we are about to start with the cross-examination,

2 but perhaps it would be better to take a break first. If there's

3 anything you would like to say before we take a break, please do.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like that break,

5 Your Honours, because I really need to go and some other things.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll take a break of 20 minutes and

7 we'll resume at 10 minutes to 11.00. But the witness first be escorted

8 out of the -- no, that's okay. But the witness first to leave the

9 courtroom before we adjourn.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break now.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15 [The witness takes the stand]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM115, you'll now be cross-examined by

17 Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic, and you'll

18 find him to your left.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Once again, good morning,

21 Your Honour. Thank you.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Ma'am, before I proceed in private session, I

24 want to express, on behalf of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic, to express

25 our sincere regret for what has happened to you and for the permanent

Page 1664

1 consequences you are suffering. But please understand that in doing our

2 job we have to ask you a few questions. It is it our obligation. Thank

3 you.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could, Your Honours, I

5 would like to go into private session for the first couple of questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1665

11 Page 1665 redacted. Private session.

Page 1666

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Ma'am, you told us that you had been given a room to live in, and

18 it was on the second floor of the hospital; do you remember that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Will you tell us, would it be correct to say that the windows of

21 your room faced north?

22 A. I never made such an analysis. I don't know what side the rooms

23 were facing. They were closed. And we put up mattresses against the

24 window.

25 Q. Would I be right in saying that the windows were facing Vogosca

Page 1667

1 and Kosevo, and those parts of Sarajevo?

2 A. I am not that kind of expert that you could question about what

3 side the windows were facing. I was doing my job, and I never dealt with

4 that sort of thing. There are other institutions that would be better

5 placed to answer that.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I now ask the Registrar,

7 the legal officer, to call up 65 ter 28316, page 24, and this is already

8 an exhibit; P3. It is that collection of photographs and maps,

9 Your Honours. Maps of Sarajevo...

10 Q. I will ask the witness - when the exhibit is displayed - to try

11 to recognise these buildings. Can you see them on the screen?

12 A. I see them, but I'm not so good with sketches.

13 Q. In the central part, can you recognise this yellow building?

14 A. I can't, because I always walked in the street. I never

15 photographed anything from above. I cannot explain this.

16 Q. I will ask you about something closer. Can you recognise the

17 buildings of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Executive Council,

18 and Marin Dvor?

19 A. If I were walking through Marin Dvor, I could recognise it, but I

20 have never seen an aerial photograph. Nothing seen from above. I

21 couldn't.

22 Q. Then I will finish with this question and this photograph.

23 In the right upper corner of this photograph, can you see a

24 building, a white many-storeys building. And would that be the hospital

25 you were talking about?

Page 1668

1 A. I don't know with these pictures taken from above. I told you.

2 I'm not good with these sketches taken from above. I never photographed

3 anything.

4 Q. Thank you. Then I will move on and take a different approach.

5 You have no understanding of artillery weapons used in such combat, in

6 war operations, do you?

7 A. No.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: Okay. Okay.

10 Q. [Interpretation] To this day, you do not know from which position

11 that artillery shell could have come from, the one that hit the hospital.

12 A. No, I'm not that kind of expert that could be questioned about

13 that. I could say nothing about that.

14 Q. Do you remember any time before you were wounded in the night

15 between the 28th and 29th of May when an artillery unit of the Army of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina was observed in the vicinity of the hospital?

17 A. No. We were hiding in basements. I didn't see the outside

18 world. I had no contact. I can't say anything about that.

19 Q. And after you were injured, you spent all your time in Sarajevo,

20 in the building of the hospital, until November 1993?

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1670

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Q. Now I shall move onto another topic because we're in public

9 session. Madam, can you remember when you heard this alleged

10 conversation of General Mladic's before the wounding?

11 A. Well, I cannot remember. Nobody was doing any counting, but it

12 was heard, before and afterwards.

13 Q. Can you tell us tentatively at least how many days before your

14 wounding you heard this conversation on Radio BH?

15 A. I cannot give you any accurate information. I wasn't doing any

16 counting. I didn't know what would happen. We were seeking shelter from

17 shells, detonations, we were hiding. It wouldn't cross your mind to do

18 any counting.

19 Q. Before that, before listening to this intercept, you did not have

20 an opportunity of meeting General Mladic personally?

21 A. Well, we saw him on television. Even small children knew him.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, in the context of the testimony of

23 this witness, the last question really is a surprising and, at first

24 sight, a very superfluous one.

25 Please proceed.

Page 1671

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You did not know in any way where General Mladic could have been

3 at the moment when that conversation was taped.

4 A. Well, he said from Hresa. So everybody knew who held Hresa, and

5 they were targeting different parts of town. Those parts of town where

6 they thought the population was non-Serb. And there were different

7 ethnicities all over town. Whoever didn't want to get their hands dirty

8 stayed, and others left.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we, once

10 again, look at the transcript of the conversation that we heard a moment

11 ago, 65 ter 20815.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think a conversation that was admitted

13 meanwhile is P105; isn't it, Mr. Stojanovic.

14 Do you have any page on your mind -- yes.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Madam, can you please tell the Court in your own words where, in

17 relation to the hospital, the area of Hresa is?

18 A. The area of Hresa is opposite the hospital, on a hill that was

19 held by the Serb side.

20 Q. Could you tell the Court where, in relation to the hospital, the

21 area called Pofalici is?

22 A. Again, I'm telling you, I never made any sketches. I never had

23 an opportunity of counting which side is which, where they were. It

24 never crossed my mind. It's a well known thing where Pofalici is,

25 Velesici. He said Velusici.

Page 1672

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, has any attempt been made to agree

2 with the Prosecution on where Pofalici is, which seems to be a very

3 clearly identified geographical area. I mean, why bother the witness

4 with apparently is not what she is best at. That is, geography. I mean,

5 is there any dispute about where Pofalici is?

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think

7 there is any dispute between us and the Prosecution where Pofalici is.

8 That is a fact that cannot be in dispute. It is the way it is. The aim

9 of these questions was, before I was in a position to receive this answer

10 from the witness, to see what her orientation is in time and space, to

11 show to the Trial Chamber what the content of this conversation is and

12 where the positions are as referred to in the conversation. However, I'm

13 dealing with this very briefly. I'm going to move onto the -- to a

14 different question now --

15 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not hear the end of the

16 sentence.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What the Chamber would expect you to do is

18 under those circumstances to clearly identify where it is. We had a

19 Court binder, which you opposed to. I take it that somewhere we'll find

20 exactly there where Pofalici is. Agree with the Prosecution on the

21 matter and do not waste time on it in court. Please proceed.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Madam, I'm going to ask you in the following way.

24 Will you agree with me that the area of Velesici is to the

25 north-west in relation to your hospital and that it is more than 1

Page 1673

1 kilometre, at least?

2 A. Believe me, I do not know about these things like north-west,

3 whatever. I came here because of my wounding. As for this geography,

4 I'd kindly ask you to spare me all of that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, apparently you have not understood

6 my comments. Where these areas are, you can still agree on that with the

7 Prosecution and inform the Chamber about it.

8 The witness has now told us several times that north, north-west,

9 south, et cetera, that's not -- why continue? Please proceed in a

10 meaningful way.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall

12 move on.

13 Could we now please take a look at document 65 ter 20828.

14 While we're waiting for this to appear in e-court, I would like

15 to say that this is a document that represents an alleged conversation --

16 alleged transcript of an alleged conversation between Ratko Mladic and a

17 person called Potpara and Baros.

18 Could we please take a look at page 2.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Before you ask the witness any questions about this

20 document, Mr. Stojanovic, would you first establish whether there is any

21 reason to expect that the witness would have any personal knowledge about

22 the matters you are about to ask her. Because if not, you should move

23 on. If she has any specific knowledge about the matters you'd like to

24 put to her in relation to this document, then, of course, you may

25 proceed.

Page 1674

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, precisely.

2 That is my task.

3 Q. Madam, can you read this text? And can I then ask you whether

4 you remember this recording; and did you hear this conversation on

5 Radio Bosnia-Herzegovina at any point in time?

6 A. Which recording?

7 Q. I would kindly ask you to look at the text in front of you.

8 That's a transcript of this intercepted conversation.

9 And when you read it, could you answer my question: Whether you

10 remember having heard this conversation at any point in time on

11 Radio Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 A. This is not written in Bosnian. I cannot read it now.

13 Q. You should have the B/C/S version in front of you as well.

14 The reading of this text, does it jog your memory? Does it

15 remind you of having heard this on the radio?

16 A. Believe me, I didn't remember any of that. I didn't write it

17 down. Different things were being said.

18 What I remember is that I was wounded. We worked at work. We

19 did not have time to sit around. We had many things to do, so ...

20 Q. You said to us here in the courtroom --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before you continue, we've seen only

22 page 2. It was apparently suggested in your question that this was

23 broadcasted. Is that suggestion based on anything?

24 And, second, could you tell us at what time - apart from the

25 day - this conversation could be located?

Page 1675

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. According to

2 our information and our investigation, this conversation took place on

3 the 29th of May, 1992, as is stated here, and it is in the morning hours.

4 This does correspond, in terms of time, to all the events that

5 the witness spoke about.

6 JUDGE ORIE: What -- morning hours extends to 12 hours, from

7 midnight until midday. Could you be more specific?

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. According to

9 the information I have, this conversation took place at 10.55.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I don't think you have already answered my

11 first question, whether it was broadcasted.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] According to our information,

13 yes, Your Honour. And that is why my question was whether the witness

14 had heard this. If she hadn't heard it, then I shall proceed.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if you -- if you carefully listen to

16 the testimony of this witness, it -- one could understand it as being

17 that she was wounded during the night hours, from the night of the 28th

18 of May until the 29th of May, and that she was in a coma. Now, is there

19 any reason to believe that she only came -- went into coma after 10.55 in

20 the morning, or are you asking the witness whether she was listening

21 radio while being in coma? I'm just inquiring into the line of

22 questioning.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due

24 respect, I am fully aware of the fact that that would have been

25 impossible then.

Page 1676

1 Several times today, this witness spoke about this intercepted

2 conversation, and she said that she heard it many times after the war.

3 So I don't think that the witness could have heard it on the 29th at

4 10.55. It is quite logical.

5 My question was: Whether at any point in time, afterwards, she

6 had the opportunity of familiarizing herself with this conversation. And

7 that is the only thing that I wish to ask her.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, your question should have been

9 more clear in that respect.

10 Second, Witness, having read at least the beginning of all this,

11 do you have any recollection of after the war or after you had left

12 hospital that you ever heard any such conversation?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was broadcast several times

14 in the media. And that will not be erased. That will remain in the

15 memory of all citizens.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Are you now referring to the original portion that

17 was read to you about -- or are you talking about this part, that is, a

18 conversation between Mr. Mladic and Mr. Potpara. Is that what you heard

19 several times; or was it the other one; or both?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying for sure that the fire

21 at Velusici was uttered before my wounding a bit. I was wounded at night

22 at ten past 12.00, and I don't remember anything after that. But

23 afterwards it was broadcast and it will always be broadcast, what his

24 instructions were, and that's that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, apart from that broadcast which you heard at

Page 1677

1 the time and you've heard again after the war, Mr. Stojanovic was asking

2 you about another conversation of which he showed you the text.

3 Do you have any recollection about that other conversation of

4 which you saw the text a minute ago and which was not about the attack?

5 Not the conversation which you heard before you were wounded but a

6 totally different conversation. Do you have any recollection that you

7 have heard this after the war?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we heard different

9 conversations. I cannot identify this precisely which conversation this

10 was. I mean, who could have followed all of that? Nobody was writing it

11 down. Also different statements were being given. I mean, I cannot say.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Monster.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 By your leave, I'm just going to try to put something from this

16 document. Page 4. Page 5 in B/C/S. I would just like to put a

17 paragraph to the witness, and if that does not jog her memory when it was

18 that she heard it, I am going to stop asking her about this intercept and

19 I'll use it some other time.

20 Q. So, madam, I would like to ask us that we take a look together.

21 We will get the B/C/S version as well.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 4. 3363. And it says that

23 the alleged participants in this -- participant in this conversation,

24 Ratko Mladic, says, inter alia:

25 "Me, too. If they want peace, they have it. Last night I

Page 1678

1 ordered -- as soon as I arrived, there was a massive attack not only

2 against the units but also against you. This shooting, somehow I managed

3 to calm people down here, to get them under control, to stop them from

4 firing. This thing that they are doing now, they probably have some good

5 mimes or some good impressionists who can probably imitate our voices

6 successfully, mine, yours, everybody's."

7 Q. And I'm asking you now whether this part of the alleged

8 intercepted conversation can remind you of ever hearing it after the war,

9 after you returned to the country. Yes or no?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It was broadcast in the media as well, wasn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you, madam. And I'm not going to deal with this document

14 any longer.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this

17 intercept be admitted into evidence. It's a 65 ter document, 20828, and

18 I think it would be number 39, if I'm not mistaken.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection.

20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: None.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, at the same time, the relevant part

22 of it has been read into the record. All the rest is left without any

23 attention, so the Chamber, before admitting these kind of documents,

24 wonders what the evidentiary purposes of it is. I mean, through this

25 witness. Perhaps it's something to be bar tabled or ...

Page 1679

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I am certain

2 that certain documents can be tendered without using this witness. The

3 other matters in the intercept that are of importance and, therefore, if

4 the Chamber agrees I would suggest that this intercept be admitted.

5 Perhaps we could just have the relevant page of the intercept admitted

6 into evidence through this witness.

7 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I was just going to add to that

8 that while I don't have an objection to the entirety being admitted, I

9 would have an objection to just the -- the portion read to the witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 208828 becomes Exhibit P39,

14 Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted --

16 THE REGISTRAR: D39.

17 JUDGE ORIE: D39 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Q. Madam, with regard to May 1992, do you know that the Marsal Tito

20 barracks, which is in the vicinity of the hospital, was surrounded by

21 ABiH members at that point in time?

22 A. The former Marsal Tito barracks was completely destroyed by

23 Serbian units.

24 Q. In that case, my question is as follows. When did that happen?

25 A. Well, I didn't note the dates. People note down such things.

Page 1680

1 History will be written, but that wasn't something that I was responsible

2 for. We were at war. We were fighting simply to survive. We weren't in

3 a position to reach for our diaries and take pens or pencils and note

4 these things down. I do apologise, but these issues I'm not familiar

5 with.

6 Q. I'll try and remind you once more, and this will be my question.

7 If I say to you that the Marsal Tito barracks, that men moved out in the

8 first week of June 1992 from the Marsal Tito barracks, would that remind

9 you of the fact that in May 1992 the barracks were surrounded?

10 A. Everyone left the barracks on a voluntarily basis. No --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser.

12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting, but

13 at this point I was going to object. Again, the witness has said

14 repeatedly that she doesn't have knowledge of these things, and now she

15 is being reminded -- supposedly reminded of things that occurred while

16 she was in a coma in order to get an answer and so I would object.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the witness said that she doesn't

18 have any knowledge. "I do apologise," she said, "but these issues I'm

19 not familiar with." And you nevertheless continue to ask questions about

20 matters she says she is not familiar with. The witness is here to

21 testify about what she observed personally, not to be taught what, in

22 your view, may have been reality.

23 Please proceed. And I think you used, until now, 45 minutes.

24 How much time would you still need, Mr. Stojanovic?

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have several