Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2160

 1                           Tuesday, 4 September 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             I was informed that the parties have no preliminaries.  I have

11     one; but, meanwhile, the witness can be escorted into the courtroom.

12             I'd like to give the guidance of the Chamber on timing of sending

13     lists of documents to be used with witnesses.

14             On August the 23rd, the Defence expressed concern about late

15     notice of certain documents used by the Prosecution with Witness Doyle.

16     The Defence then sought guidance from the Chamber about when such lists

17     should be sent.  The Chamber will not set any strict time-limits in this

18     respect at this stage and is confident that the parties can find common

19     ground on this issue without involving the Chamber.

20             At the same time, the parties are encouraged to send lists of

21     documents to be used during examination-in-chief as early as possible.

22     The Chamber would expect that a first list of documents be sent no later

23     than seven days prior to the witness's testimony.  Such a list could then

24     be complemented at a later stage following any proofing of the witness.

25             And that is the guidance of the Chamber.

Page 2161

 1             Ms. Bibles, could you tell us how much time you would still need?

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  I anticipate about 20 additional

 3     minutes with this witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that information.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Begic.  I'd like to remind you

 7     that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

 8     beginning of your testimony.  That is that you'll speak the truth, the

 9     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10             You will now be further examined by Ms. Bibles.

11             You may proceed, Ms. Bibles.

12             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           WITNESS:  RAJIF BEGIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Examination by Ms. Bibles: [Continued]

16        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Begic.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   When we broke yesterday, you were describing being on Vrhpolje

19     bridge and believing that -- and I believe the quote was:  "We'd been

20     abandoned to our fate."  I'd like to ask you about the circumstances at

21     the bridge at that point in time on the 31st of May, 1992.

22             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, could P163 please be brought back to

23     our screens.

24        Q.   First, could you tell us how far it is from the bridge to the

25     water?

Page 2162

 1        A.   Well, the bring is about 5 or 6 or perhaps 7 metres high.

 2        Q.   And as we look at P163 on our screens, we see a number of

 3     buildings that are in the area around the bridge.  What was happening

 4     with those buildings at that point in time, on 31st of May of 1992?

 5        A.   Yes.  On that day, we passed by the buildings you can see on the

 6     screen.  When we arrived at the bridge, we were facing them, so you could

 7     see all of the surroundings of the village of Hrustovo and part of

 8     Vrhpolje, and everything there was on fire.

 9        Q.   Was there a check-point near the bridge?

10        A.   There was one at the bridge itself.  When you cross over the

11     bridge and go a little further, at the cross-roads where you can take the

12     direction for Ilidza, there was a sort of bunker where they carried out

13     controls.

14        Q.   Could you tell us, looking at this photograph, whether that

15     check-point would have on the left side or the right side of the bridge?

16        A.   On the right-hand side of the bridge.

17        Q.   While you were at the bridge, as you described when we finished

18     yesterday, was anything going on around that check-point?

19        A.   No.  We just saw a lot of soldiers standing on the bridge there,

20     and there were some soldiers standing by this check-point at the

21     cross-roads where the road leads to Ilidza.

22        Q.   What were these soldiers doing as the beatings were going on?

23        A.   Well, there was a group standing by the railings itself on the

24     left-hand side, on the downstream side.  They were standing there and

25     they had their rifles in their hands, and some of the soldiers were

Page 2163

 1     walking around the middle of the bridge.  They were beating those who

 2     were standing on the other side.  They were cursing.  They were walking

 3     around.  They were beating people, and so on and so forth.

 4        Q.   Was anyone in your group resisting or fighting back?

 5        A.   No, not physically.  But Hakija Begic, for example, said a few

 6     words quite loudly, and on the whole the others were mostly moaning and

 7     just looking at the ground, looking down in front of them.  So there was

 8     no physical resistance, in fact.

 9        Q.   Yesterday you testified at, I believe it's 2151, lines 1 through

10     11, that Miralem Ceric and his son Enes were taken into the

11     slaughter-house and that you didn't see them again.  Did he have any

12     other sons in your group?

13        A.   Miralem Ceric.

14        Q.   Yes.  Did he have any other sons who were still in your group at

15     the bridge?

16        A.   Yes.  Miralem Ceric and his son Enes Ceric were behind us.  His

17     younger son, Midhet Ceric arrived at the bridge with us in the column.

18     He was the first person there.  If you are looking from the direction

19     that we came from, he was standing there on the bridge.

20        Q.   Did you see whether anything happened to him on the bridge?

21        A.   Yes.  After they had spent some time beating the people and

22     insulting them, one soldier asked loudly, Who was good at jumping into

23     the water.  And there was a soldier standing on the right-hand side by

24     the railings there, Marinko Acimovic was his name, and he said I know

25     that Cera knows how to jump into the water and then

Page 2164

 1     Nenad [as interpreted] Palija, who was standing in front of him, ordered

 2     Midhet to jump into the water.  Midhet did so.  He climbed over the

 3     railings on the bridge and jumped into the water on the upstream side.

 4     As Midhet was swimming downstream, the water took him downstream, I saw

 5     four soldiers who were preparing their automatic weapons and leaning over

 6     the railings, and when Midhet appeared under them, they opened bursts of

 7     fire directed at him.  Several moments later, you could see his body a

 8     little further down.  The water had carried him downstream.  You could

 9     see that his body wasn't moving, and you could see that the water was red

10     with his blood, the water around him.

11        Q.   And I just want to go back.  Who ordered him to jump off the

12     bridge?

13        A.   Nenad Kaurin, a soldier who was standing in the middle of the

14     bridge.

15        Q.   And how old was Midhet?

16        A.   Well, at the time, I think he was about 30 years old.

17        Q.   All right.  Who was next to be ordered off the bridge?

18        A.   Well, as I have said, Midhet was the first person in the column,

19     if you are looking from -- if you are facing from the direction that we

20     came from.  And then there was Munib Begic.  When Midhet was taken

21     downstream, you could hear someone say, Let's have the next one, and then

22     there was a soldier who had searched and beat the people earlier on.  He

23     approached.  He hit him a few times with a baton.  He hit him on the head

24     a few times with a baton an ordered him to jump.  He just had a look to

25     the left, climbed over the railings, and he jumped, and a few moments

Page 2165

 1     later, the same thing happened.  The same four men leaned over the

 2     bridge.  You could hear Munib swimming and these four men firing at him.

 3        Q.   And how old - excuse me - was Munib?

 4        A.   At the time he was 27 years old.

 5        Q.   Who was next to go over the bridge?

 6        A.   The next person standing by Munib was Enes Dezdarovic.  He was

 7     under age at the time.  He was between 15 and 16 years old.  He was the

 8     next one.  And to my right, two of his brothers and his father were

 9     standing to my right, in fact.  He was also ordered to jump, and when

10     this boy tried to jump into the water, and as hes with climbing over the

11     railings, Jadranko Palija approached and shot him in the head at the time

12     that he wanted to jump.  He pushed him over the railings with his leg and

13     when his body fell into the water and was passing under the bridge, the

14     four men I have already mentioned fired at him again.

15        Q.   At that point in time, was attention directed towards you

16     somehow?

17        A.   Yes.  After they -- these people had been killed, they started

18     beating all the others who were still standing on the bridge.  Some were

19     thrown to the ground.  Some were already lying on the ground.  They

20     kicked some of them.  Hit others with their rifles.  It was chaos.  You

21     could no longer distinguish what was being said and to whom.  There was

22     just a lot of terrible groaning.  The elderly people who were standing on

23     the right were groaning, so this maltreatment and these beatings lasted

24     for several minutes.

25        Q.   What was happening to you?

Page 2166

 1        A.   I was also beaten, as were the others.  But somehow I remained

 2     where I was standing.  In other words, I wasn't lying down on the bridge.

 3     Jadranko and Nenad came and punched me in the head while I was standing

 4     there, and there was Elmedin Begic whose turn came next.

 5        Q.   And can you describe for us what happened when it became his

 6     turn?

 7        A.   Yes.  When it was his turn, a soldier approached and asked him

 8     who the lieutenant, the officer in Begici was, and he said, No one.  He

 9     asked him who had weapons.  He said he didn't know.  Then they started

10     beating the people again.  They skipped him then and ordered me to open

11     my mouth.  Jadranko put the barrel of an automatic weapon in my mouth.

12     And then someone said, Don't kill him on the bridge.  Don't dirty the

13     bridge.  He should jump.

14        Q.   Did you, in fact, then jump?

15        A.   Yes.  I also climbed over the railings.  I was in the middle, and

16     then I dived into the water.

17        Q.   Can you describe what happened as you went into the water?

18        A.   Yes.  As the water was up to my neck at the place that I dived

19     into, I hit my head because there was a rock on the bottom.  I turned

20     around and I managed to climb out under the column, the mid-column, of

21     the bridge.  I was standing there and I heard the soldiers looking for

22     me.  They were waiting to see me swimming.  I knew I had to pass by.  I

23     think someone said, The water will take him away.  He's certainly been

24     stopped by this column.  And then I briefly took my leave, in a certain

25     sense.  I didn't want to swim.  I didn't want to be an easy target for

Page 2167

 1     them.  I decided to swim under water.  Then I took off that white T-shirt

 2     that I still had on me and kicked it to the bottom of the river, and when

 3     I had gone downstream a metre or two, I swam under water, a little to

 4     their left, and when they noticed the T-shirt, they opened bursts of

 5     fire.  While I was swimming under water, I could see this.  And then, as

 6     luck would have it, I avoided all those bullets.  I swam under water to

 7     the left because I wanted to reach the bank, and I managed to do that.

 8        Q.   How far down-river did you make it?

 9        A.   I wouldn't know exactly.  Between 50 and 60 metres.

10        Q.   Could you tell us, when you came up from your dive, where --

11     where in the stream of the river were you?

12        A.   Yes.  There are a lot of trees to the left of the river.  A lot

13     of bushes.  There was one that was just a bit above the water.  I managed

14     to emerge by that bush, and as I emerged, I took care not to be seen.  So

15     only part of my head was above the surface of the water.  I grabbed onto

16     the bush, and that's where I remained, in hiding.

17        Q.   How long did you stay in that location hidden by the bush?

18        A.   Well, when I jumped off the bridge, I don't know what time it was

19     exactly, about 5.00 or half past 5.00.  I remained by the bush, observing

20     what was going on on the bridge, and when everything was over, my

21     intention was to get out of the river because the water was cold.

22     However, I couldn't do so because there was still a lot of soldiers

23     moving around by the river and in the surroundings, so I remained there.

24     I waited for night to fall so that I would take advantage of the dark.

25     So it was already a little dark when my intention was to get out of the

Page 2168

 1     water.

 2        Q.   Let's go back to when you first came up in the bush.  Could you

 3     see or hear what was going on on the bridge?

 4        A.   Yes.  You could see everything that was going on.  But from that

 5     distance and through the branches, it was difficult to see everything.

 6     You could see people jumping off the bridge.  You could see the bodies

 7     falling into the water, but it wasn't possible to identify the person who

 8     had jumped into the water.  You could see the same four men who continued

 9     to fire.  You could hear people groaning and moaning.  They continued

10     with their beatings.  There was a lot of noise they were making.  They

11     continued cursing.

12        Q.   Were you able -- are you able to tell us how many bodies went off

13     the bridge after you surfaced at the bush?

14        A.   I saw two or three other bodies that jumped off the bridge, or

15     were thrown off the bridge, after I had jumped.  Not everyone jumped off

16     the bridge.  After the two or three bodies that jumped, the two or three

17     people that jumped into the water, you could hear them opening bursts of

18     fire for quite some time, and then there was silence for a while.  You

19     could no longer hear anything.

20        Q.   At some point, did you attempt to find other survivors from the

21     bridge?

22        A.   Yes.  When I managed to get out of the water, over the next few

23     days, I spent some time walking around the area in an attempt to see if I

24     could find anyone, but I didn't find anyone.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My I just interrupt, Madam Bibles.

Page 2169

 1             At page 9, line 13, the witness says or is interpreted to have

 2     said:

 3             "After the two or three bodies that jumped, the two or three

 4     people that jumped into the water, you could hear them opening bursts of

 5     fire for quite some time and then there was silence for a while."

 6             Did you mean to say that the people who are jumping into the

 7     water fired shots?  Or were they fired at?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  What I said was that from

 9     where I was in the water, I could observe the same scenario repeating

10     itself a few times.  The man would jump.  Then the four would fire.

11     After that, would you hear a long burst of fire.  After the scenario

12     repeated itself three times, then you would hear the long burst of fire.

13     And then after that shooting, no more people jumped in the water and you

14     couldn't hear any more moaning or cursing.  It's as if there is nobody

15     there on the bridge anymore.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MS. BIBLES:

18        Q.   What sort of injuries did you have in the -- after the -- the

19     bridge?

20        A.   I was beaten on the bridge.  I had some bruises around my eyes.

21     When I jumped into the water, when I dived, I hurt my head.  My skull

22     cracked open in one place, yes.

23        Q.   You testified that over the next few days you spent some time

24     walking around the area.  What area did you stay near during those few

25     days?

Page 2170

 1        A.   Yes.  After it got dark, then I was thinking that I should get

 2     out of the river, but I had already bled a lot and I was cold.  So the

 3     water just carried me downstream.  And then the next day, or a couple of

 4     days later, I woke up at the delta of the Sanica river, and I was there

 5     by a bridge, and I spent the next couple of days there.

 6        Q.   At some point, did you decide that you needed to go for help?

 7        A.   Yes.  I spent three nights there where the Sana and the Sanica

 8     rivers meet, and then when I could no longer stand being there, I decided

 9     to leave and go somewhere.  I decided to go to Andja Krlic and Vid Krlic.

10     And so that one night when there was a storm, I took the opportunity and

11     I went to their house, and I asked them for help.

12        Q.   And just to clarify, was this your godmother?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you actually -- were you able to reach her?

15        A.   I did, yes.  Like I said, that night, when I decided to go

16     somewhere else, it was a terrible storm.  It was raining.  There was

17     thunder and lightening, so I used that very dark time to reach their

18     house, unnoticed.

19        Q.   When you reached her, did she tend to your wounds?

20        A.   Yes.  I arrived after midnight.  And in the state that I was in,

21     I didn't dare to knock on the door.  I hid in the barn.  And only when it

22     was light, when they came out of their house, then I said something.

23     They received me.  They told me that they knew what had happened.  They

24     brought me into the house, and then my godmother Andja brought some plum

25     brandy to clean my wound on my head.  She cleaned the area around my

Page 2171

 1     eyes, and then she put some kind of dressing on my chest.  I put some dry

 2     clothing on, and I had a cup of tea.

 3        Q.   You told us that her family -- this was a Serb family.  Did they

 4     have Serb neighbours who were concerned for their own safety because you

 5     were with them?

 6        A.   Yes.  Her son Zeljko was also an armed soldier.  At that time he

 7     just happened to be at home.  The check-point that was not far from our

 8     houses was a joint check-point for the Serbian population in the

 9     surrounding houses.  From Vehici [phoen] to my godmother Andja's house,

10     there was no check-point.  At least I didn't see any.  There was just one

11     check-point more to the right, near the Stojnovics' place.

12        Q.   Did someone turn you in to the authorities?

13        A.   Yes.  After 15 or 20 minutes, I was so tired.  At one point, I

14     woke up.  There was nobody in the room, and you could hear voices calling

15     me to come outside.  I went outside, and then I could see neighbours who

16     had surrounded the house.  They were armed and they were telling me to

17     surrender.

18        Q.   And did you, in fact, surrender?

19        A.   Yes, I went out.  I knew my neighbours.  There was an officer

20     with them.  My godmother Andja and her son were standing there with them

21     when I came out.  Then the people who had surrounded the house also came,

22     so we were all standing together in one place near the house.

23        Q.   All right.  After you surrendered, did you receive medical care?

24        A.   No.  At that point, no.  This officer was in two minds, the one

25     who came with the car and the neighbours.  His only dilemma was what was

Page 2172

 1     I doing there.  Who was I.  Why did I come there.  He was asking Andja.

 2     Actually, she explained to him that I was her godchild and that I could

 3     stay at their place, which is what he was asking.  He asked, Can he stay

 4     with you for a couple of days until the situation calms down a little

 5     bit?  She said, Yes, he can.  But the neighbours who were with this

 6     officer were not in favour of my staying.  They wanted him to drive me

 7     away from that place because I posed a danger for them.

 8        Q.   All right.  Going forward in time, at some point in time, did you

 9     end up going to Manjaca camp?

10        A.   Yes.  In July, when the inmates were taken to Manjaca that day, I

11     was also in one of those trucks.

12        Q.   Where were you immediately before being taken to Manjaca?

13        A.   After I was taken from my godmother Andja's house, they took me

14     to the village of Tomina.  That's where I received medical treatment.

15     They interrogated me, and after this interrogation, I was released.

16     Actually, I was taken to the village of Tomina which was across the river

17     from our village, and that's where the refugees were located, from

18     Begici.  My mother was there and my youngest brother.  We were some 20

19     days there.  And then, after that, all the refugees from the neighbouring

20     villages were transferred to the Krings camp in Sanski Most.  And then

21     after a couple of days, or three days, we were transferred to Manjaca.

22        Q.   How long were you in Manjaca?

23        A.   I was there until the 16th of December, 1992.

24        Q.   And from there, you were eventually released?

25        A.   Yes.  When the camp was disbanded, I was released with the other

Page 2173

 1     inmates.  We went to the town of Karlovac.

 2        Q.   Did your mother and youngest brother survive the war?

 3        A.   Yes.  They were transported from the Krings camp before I was.

 4     They were taken to Central Bosnia.  And then I think they went to

 5     Slovenia.  Through the Red Cross, I think it was.

 6        Q.   Are you aware of whether or not an exhumation was done of bodies

 7     under the Vrhpolje?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is interest any dispute about these matters.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  No, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, why then ask the witness?

11             MS. BIBLES:  Just --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Especially if you indicate that you need another 20

13     minutes.  You've taken now approximately 30, and then to come up with

14     matters which are not in dispute, and I take it that there is documentary

15     evidence of it anyhow.

16             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I won't be asking more than one

17     question with respect to this.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MS. BIBLES:

20        Q.   Do you know whether the remains of any of your immediate family

21     was identified in the exhumation?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And who was that?

24        A.   Many of them were found.  Among them, my brother, Nedzad Begic,

25     my younger brother.

Page 2174

 1             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, as I am coming to the end, I would ask

 2     that 65 ter 28366 be brought to our screens.

 3        Q.   While that's being brought up, have you looked at a list of

 4     names, the list of names you see before you, before testifying?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And the list of names, can you tell us just briefly who these

 7     people are.  How is it that -- that their names are all together?

 8        A.   Yes.  This is a list of the people who went to that bridge that

 9     day.

10        Q.   Have you seen or heard of any of the people whose names are on

11     this list?  Have you heard of any of them being alive since the 31st of

12     May of 1992?

13        A.   Unfortunately, no.

14             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, the Prosecution tendered 65 ter 28366

15     into evidence.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, it's not clear who created this

17     document, and we would object to this kind of documents.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  First question:  Who created it?

19             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, this was created from the witness's

20     statement by the Office of the Prosecutor and then shown to the

21     witness --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It is --

23             MS. BIBLES:  -- over the weekend.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It is extracted from previous statements and

25     testimony, is that?

Page 2175

 1             MS. BIBLES:  That is correct, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  And also we would ask where in the indictment we have

 4     those names or this list?

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, this would be for Scheduled Incident

 6     A71.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, this refers to, as I said,

 9     Scheduled Incident A71.  There was a separate list filed with the names

10     of the victims.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We -- as we stated before, we would -- we would

13     always object to the documents created in this way by the Office of the

14     Prosecutor.  It's up to Your Honours to decide what to do with this kind

15     of document --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  What basis?  I mean, of course, what we could do

17     now, the witness recognises, as he has testified, that these are names of

18     persons he knows were in the -- taken to the bridge.

19             Now, of course, we could ask him to -- or to put on the record

20     each individual name and ask him to confirm that this was a person.  That

21     seems not to be very practical.  It's not clear to me on what basis you

22     exactly oppose the admission of the list, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  It's more --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What legal basis, I mean.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Legal basis:  That it's more of a -- actually -- just

Page 2176

 1     a second.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             MR. LUKIC:  And it is different from the one -- from the

 4     indictment, so why don't they show the witness that list?  We would

 5     object because it was created by the Office of the Prosecutor.  It's --

 6     it's, I think, not good to let parties to create documents and ask for

 7     their admission.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  A lot of photographs, for example, are produced by

 9     the Office of the Prosecution as well.  I mean, I never heard that that

10     makes them in any way inadmissible.  Now, often we see that.  But I'll

11     consult with my colleagues about admission.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I have a few questions for the witness.

16             Witness, I'll read the names, and you confirm by a yes or a no

17     whether they were in the group that were led to the bridge.

18             Elmedin Begic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Fuad Begic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Hakija Begic.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Irfan Begic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 2177

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Muhamed Begic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Muharem Begic.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Munib Begic.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Nail Begic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Nedzad Begic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Sacir Begic.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Enes Ceric.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Enver Ceric.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Midhet Ceric.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Miralem Ceric.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Enes Dizdarevic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Ismet Dizdarevic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Muhamed Dizdarevic.

Page 2178

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mirsad Dizdarevic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ismet Kurbegovic.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions?

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Not with respect to this exhibit, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, is there any need to insist on the

 9     exhibit to be admitted -- have it admitted into evidence?

10             MS. BIBLES:  No, Your Honour.  The record is very clear at this

11     point.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed and keep in mind that you went well

13     beyond your 20 minutes.

14             MS. BIBLES:  I apologise for that, Your Honour.  We did reserve

15     two hours for this witness and I was overambitious in my time.  I have

16     one last question.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please put it to the witness.

18             MS. BIBLES:

19        Q.   Could you describe for us the last time that you saw your brother

20     Nedzad?

21        A.   At one point when I was standing on the bridge.  I was the fourth

22     in line.  My younger brother, Nedzad, was the last one in the column that

23     was standing along the fence, and when I was jumping off the bridge, at

24     that point I looked at him and he looked at me also.  Then that was the

25     only -- actually, that was the last time that we saw each other.

Page 2179

 1             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I have no further questions.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Bibles.

 3             Mr. Lukic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I am.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Begic, you will now be cross-examined by

 6     Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.  And you'll find him on

 7     your left.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Begic.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   As you heard from His Honour, I'm going to be cross-examining you

12     now on behalf of the Defence of General Mladic.

13             Today, on page 3 of the transcript, you talked about Vrhpolje and

14     Hrustovo.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the last part

16     of his question.  Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Are you aware that Hrustovo and Vrhpolje were strong military

19     points of the Muslim army?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Did you know the brothers Vukanovic?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Are you aware that they were the commanders of these military

24     units in Hrustovo and Vrhpolje?

25        A.   Yes, I did hear about it, but I didn't know it myself.

Page 2180

 1        Q.   And are you aware that, at the time, there were 900 members of

 2     the Bosnia-Herzegovina TO in Vrhpolje at the time?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   And are you aware that in Mahala and Hrustovo there were 400

 5     members of the B and H TO?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Are you aware that on the 26th May 1992, there was a mortar

 8     attack initiated from Mahala on the Serbian parts of Sanski Most?

 9        A.   Well, I was in Begici at the time which is 10 kilometres away, so

10     I didn't see or hear anything like that.

11        Q.   At the time that you're speaking of, did you know that the

12     fighting in Vrhpolje precisely on that day resulted in the death of ten

13     members of the Serbian army in combat?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Do you know that on that day 146 fighters of the TO of the

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina forces surrendered in the fighting in Vrhpolje?

17        A.   No.  I'm hearing of that for the first time.

18        Q.   And have you ever had heard of Amir Avdic, who was one of the

19     commanders of those forces?

20        A.   Yes, I have.

21        Q.   And did you know that he was one of the commanders of those

22     forces?

23        A.   No.  At that point, no, I did not.

24        Q.   And did you hear about that later?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 2181

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at P163 on our

 2     screens.

 3        Q.   When you were describing how people slipped through the gaps in

 4     the fence of the bridge or the railing, is this how this railing looked

 5     at the time?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And how high is it?

 8        A.   1 metre.  I don't know exactly.  Approximately 1 metre.

 9        Q.   And how is it possible for a person to slip through this railing?

10        A.   Through the top.  Because the railing only has one bar going

11     through the middle.  And then they would slip through this upper part of

12     it.

13        Q.   I'm sorry, I didn't understand you.  They passed through what?

14        A.   Through the railing.  This is a picture of the bridge after it

15     was repaired, after the war.  It's an identical -- the railing is

16     identical, but you could slip through this top frame of the railing.  You

17     could slip through it.

18        Q.   Are you saying that the people were sliding through between the

19     asphalt and that wrung, that railing?

20        A.   Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you put to the witness that he used the

22     words "slip through."

23             Could you give us the exact line where he said so, so that we are

24     able to follow your examination.  Because a WordWheel search on the

25     yesterday and today, only gives one -- let me see ... I only see the

Page 2182

 1     word -- oh, let me see.

 2             I didn't find it.  Could you assist me.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I'm trying, Your Honour.  For example, today, on page

 4     4.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  Page 4, you said.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I have line 3.  But let me look ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 4, line 3 of today's transcript, I do not find

 8     anything of the kind.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  After that.  I don't have the exact page and line.

10     He was talking about Midhet.  Here it was marked:  He climbed over.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  He climbed over.  That's not the same as slipping

12     through, isn't it.

13             MR. LUKIC:  But in his statement, I found that he said "through."

14             JUDGE ORIE:  This statement is not in evidence, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  It will be.  It will be.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I do understand that you want to tender it

17     soon.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, I will tender it soon, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait and see.  Please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you proceed, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At page 21, line -- line 22, the witness says,

24     after being asked a question:

25             "I'm sorry, I didn't understand you.  They passed through what?"

Page 2183

 1             The answer was:

 2             "Through the railing."

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  This is a picture of the bridge after it was

 5     repaired after the war.  It's an identical -- the railing is identical,

 6     but you could slip through this top frame of the railing.  You could slip

 7     through it.  The point I want to raise with you is that he could slip

 8     through that top.

 9             Now, at page 22, you -- line 1, you say:

10             "Are you saying that the people were sliding through between the

11     asphalt and that wrung, that railing?"

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, if they were slipping through the top as he

14     has already told you, it couldn't be between the asphalt and the railing.

15             MR. LUKIC:  But then he confirmed what I asked him, because there

16     was no possibility to -- there is only one gap in between the railing --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's not further --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's not further discuss it at this moment, but

20     there certainly is some confusion --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're confusing the witness.  This is the point.

22     Because he has given you an answer and you ask the same question again

23     and ask it differently.  He said they go over the top.  Now you say it's

24     between the asphalt and the wrungs.  Obviously if it is between the

25     asphalt and the wrungs, it means they are sliding on [indiscernible]

Page 2184

 1     virtually, when in fact he says they are climbing on the top.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  There was nothing on the top to squeeze through.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, on the top he said this railing has a bar in

 4     the middle.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  So --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you jump over.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  -- only one bar.  Only one bar.  There is nothing to

 8     be squeezed through on the top.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if it confuses us, it most likely would

10     have confused the witness as well, whatever he answered.  And if you say

11     he confirmed that, it could be because he was confused.  That, at least,

12     is a possibility which we should exclude for your next questions.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   We'll go on, Mr. Begic.  We'll get to that.  I'll find it in your

16     statement as well.

17             You saw bodies floating downstream.  You saw that from the

18     bridge; right?

19        A.   No.  From the bridge, you could hear someone below the bridge,

20     but you couldn't see it.

21        Q.   All right.  But when people were hit, did you see --

22        A.   Yes, we did see that.

23        Q.   And how far away would they float when you could see them?

24        A.   Well, after 30 or 40 metres, you could already see the water and

25     a body floating on the water.

Page 2185

 1        Q.   And then, when you grabbed onto a piece of wood when you first

 2     got out --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- all these bodies -- all the bodies of the persons before you,

 5     did they already go downstream?

 6        A.   I don't know where they ended up, because we could see them

 7     floating down the river from the bridge, but not all the time because we

 8     were being beaten and everything else.  So our attention was diverted and

 9     we could not watch these bodies for a very long time as they went

10     downstream.  I mean, you couldn't watch downstream any longer and you

11     couldn't see where they ended up.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look of the

14     statement of the witness from the 16th of April, 1996; 1D205.

15        Q.   Do you recognise the statement that you gave on the 16th of

16     April, 1996 at the court in Sanski Most?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   At the bottom of the page, is that your signature?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at page 7

21     now in both languages, B/C/S and English.

22        Q.   Since this statement is rather condensed, there are no

23     paragraphs so we'll have to count the lines.  Today, you said that you

24     got out of the water after 50 or 60 metres --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2186

 1        Q.   And in line five in B/C/S and in line 24 on the same page in

 2     English, you say that you dived and swam under water for about 100 to 150

 3     metres.  Can you reconcile the two statements for us today?  Can you tell

 4     us what is correct?

 5        A.   To this day, I cannot say exactly how far away it was from the

 6     bridge to that bush.  Now, when I think of it, it seems to be about 150

 7     metres.  Sometimes I say 50.  But, at any rate, the distance was at least

 8     50 and then up to 150 metres.  That would be the most accurate way of

 9     putting it.

10        Q.   At any rate, you said in your statement that you no longer saw

11     the bodies of the persons who got into the water before you, and you

12     confirmed that for us today.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So they floated down these 50 or 150 metres.  They floated

15     downstream?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And where is the grave where they were found later on?  That is

18     unclear to me.  Is it the grave below that bridge from which the people

19     allegedly jumped or is it a different bridge?

20        A.   As far as I know, there are several graves.  And the bodies of

21     the persons who were on the bridge were identified.  Some were found in

22     the grave under the bridge and others at other locations.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I would need guidance from Your Honours.

25     Are we going to have short sittings today and short breaks?

Page 2187

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have -- I -- I should have been more

 2     alert on the short sessions.  If this would be a suitable moment for you

 3     to take a break?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take the break now and then resume at ten

 6     minutes past 11.00.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If we take short breaks then.  I'm confusing you at

 9     this very moment as well.  Apologies for that.

10             Could the witness first be escorted out of the courtroom.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume, after a short break, at 11.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

16             Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was also a bit puzzled by the reference to

17     "grave."  I think the witness said something about an exhumation.  Grave,

18     exhumation, I do not know whether it was a primary or secondary grave,

19     et cetera.  But, certainly, the witness did not use the word "grave," but

20     it may be in the statement.  But, again, the statement is not in evidence

21     and the Chamber has not read it.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome back, Mr. Begic.  Mr. Lukic will now

25     continue his cross-examination.

Page 2188

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Begic, just briefly I will go back to the

 3     bridge railing.

 4             We already have your statement on our screens, but we need page 5

 5     in B/C/S and page 6 in English.  First of all, I would like to show the

 6     Judges that there was no ill-intent on my part when I referred to this.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S version, we need line 12

 8     from the bottom up.  In the English version, we need line 4 on page 6.

 9     Line 4 from the top.  Everyone can see it in the English version now.

10             This is what is written:

11             "He squeezed through the fence and jumped into the water head

12     first."

13             The same is written in the B/C/S version.  I'm going to read

14     B/C/S now.

15             "He squeezed through the fence and then jumped into the water

16     head first."

17             [In English] This is just for the clarification that I really

18     found it in the -- in the -- in his statement, and I wasn't misleading

19     this witness, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's not discuss this any further.  What you

21     appropriately should have done is to put this to the witness because

22     at -- certainly you confused the Chamber if you are referring to portions

23     of a statement which the Chamber is unaware of and then ask questions

24     about it.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

Page 2189

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But also jumping through the fence.  You can

 3     jump -- jumping through the fence is more in line with jumping over --

 4     over the top rather than sliding underneath.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I was clear, Your Honour.  Exactly.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] We're not going to deal with this any longer,

 7     Mr. Begic.  I'm going to move onto something completely different now,

 8     when you say that local Serbs from the village of Cosici and Stojinovici

 9     placed a check-point 800 metres from your village.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 2, lines 4

11     through 6 in B/C/S, and page 2, lines 7 through 9.

12        Q.   You speak about a commander here who brought the unit to your

13     village on the 25th of May, and this is what you say.  You see line 3:

14             "That unit which come to our village on the 25th of May, 1992,

15     was commanded by a commander with long black hair, tied in a ponytail.

16     He wore round dark glasses."

17             And then further on you say:

18             "He wore black leather gloves which he never took off."

19             Would you say the same thing today if you were to describe this

20     commander?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Also, on the same page of the B/C/S version but line

23     6 from the bottom up; and, in English, it is page 3, line 2 from the top.

24     You describe the 31st of May, 1992, so this is the day when these

25     killings happened, as you had said.  And again you describe this

Page 2190

 1     commander, and you say:

 2             "The unit was commanded by the Chetnik whom I previously

 3     described as having a long ponytail."

 4             Would you say the same thing today as well?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you something.  Since we are

 7     describing the check-point in Cosici and Stojinovici now, is it correct

 8     that Muslims had a check-point as well but in the village of Crnojevici

 9     at the time?

10        A.   I don't know where that village is.

11        Q.   Crnojevic.  Perhaps it was mistaken there.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D207, could we please see that in

13     e-court.

14        Q.   Mr. Begic, I'll read through it so that it can be correctly

15     interpreted.  This is a transcript from the Brdjanin case.  Page 6382.

16     The date of the trial was the 31st of May, 2001, when you testified in

17     that case, and Ms. Faveau-Ivanovic, or Mrs. Faveau-Ivanovic, asked you

18     the following:

19             [In English] "Is it not true that Muslims also set up

20     check-points in their villages and hamlets?"

21             [Interpretation] And your answer at point 17 is:

22             "It is true, they set up a check-point at the village of

23     Crnojevici?"

24             It hasn't been correctly noted here.  What did you have in mind?

25     Where did the Muslims set up a check-point at the time?

Page 2191

 1        A.   I can't remember this statement, a check-point in Crnojevici.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to the top of the page,

 3     please.  Could you zoom in to the top left-hand corner so that the

 4     witness can see it.

 5        Q.   It says the witness is Rajif Begic and that he was testifying in

 6     open session.  Do you remember testifying in the Brdjanin case?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   You don't know what you were testifying about exactly at this

 9     point in time?

10        A.   I was probably thinking about a station, a Vrhpolje station, but

11     I didn't see any large check-points in the hamlets, so I couldn't really

12     say that there was a check-point there.

13        Q.   So you're telling us that on the 31st of May, 2002, in fact, you

14     weren't telling us the truth?

15        A.   Well, I'm not familiar with the existence of a village called

16     Crnojevici.  I don't know how it is that this name, Crnojevici, appears

17     in the transcript.

18        Q.   Very well.  We will move on.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the language on the 31st of May is not

20     unambiguous, and I think it would be fair to -- to the witness to

21     acknowledge that.

22             The question was:

23             "You said yesterday that your Serb neighbours set up

24     check-points.  Is it not true that Muslim also set up check-points in

25     their villages and hamlets?"

Page 2192

 1             When the witness said it is true that they set up a check-point

 2     at the village of Crnojevici, then it's unclear who are the "they,"

 3     because in the question setting up check-points is referred to both by

 4     Serbs and by Muslims so --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the "they" is --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  The question was Muslims, specific.  Is it not true

 8     that Muslims also set up check-points.  It is it true --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was introduced by:

10             "You said yesterday that your Serb neighbours set up

11     check-points."

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  "Is it also not true that Muslims also set up

14     check-points?"

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If a witness then answers:  "It is true that they

17     set up check-points," there may be ambiguity as whether the witness

18     responds to the introduction to the question or the question itself.

19     That is ambiguous.  I do not need any further discussion at this moment

20     about it, but I would like to have it put on the record.

21             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, in this transcript he wasn't answering

23     to my question.  He was -- in this transcript he was answering to

24     question of my colleague Fauveau.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I said that from reading it that it

Page 2193

 1     seems, at least, ambiguous.  Not to say that you're right or wrong, but

 2     at least there's some ambiguity in the day and that's what I wanted to

 3     put on the record, and you may now proceed.

 4             Please do so.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  If I can inquire that "they" is ambiguous in today's

 6     transcript or in the transcript from the 31st of May, 2002?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  31st of May, Mr. Lukic.  And, as I said before, you

 8     may proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] In the same statement on the second page --

11             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] We no longer need the transcript.

12     We need this witness's statement, 1D205.  Page 2 in both versions.  It's

13     the 14th line from the bottom in the B/C/S version; and it's the sixth

14     line from the bottom in the English version.

15        Q.   Mr. Begic, here, you say:

16             "The entire municipality was attacked.  The town of Sanski Most

17     itself and the villages of Hrustovo and Vrhpolje.  It was relatively calm

18     in our village up until the 31st of May, 1992."

19             When the attack was carried out against the villages of Hrustovo

20     and Vrhpolje, do you know how long it lasted?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you know whether any resistance was mounted?

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   Now very briefly, I'd like to deal with the part of your

25     testimony when you say that Nedjo Sucur [phoen] interrogated you in the

Page 2194

 1     school.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   He asked you whether you knew Nenad Kaurin; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Nenad, according to you, was one of the people who opened fire on

 6     the bridge; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You said that you knew him and that he was a member of the

 9     reserve police force; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   He also wore a blue police uniform and a blue cap.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, could we have a look at Exhibit P162.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have that up on the screen,

15     please.

16        Q.   Mr. Begic, this is an exhibit that we have already had a look at.

17     It's a drawing of the Sanski Most municipality and the villages have been

18     marked.  We can see it now.

19             Could we have one map shown on the entire screen.  It would be

20     easier?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  English or B/C/S version, please?

22             MR. LUKIC:  B/C/S version so that the witness can see it more

23     properly.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] With regard to this document I'd like to ask you

25     the following.  At the top, we can see various colours that reflect the

Page 2195

 1     ethnic composition of that municipality.  Did you make this sketch?

 2        A.   Did I draw this map?  No.

 3        Q.   Did you work out the ethnic composition of the population.  It

 4     says in 1991 the ethnic composition was such and such, and in 1995 it was

 5     such and such.

 6        A.   Perhaps, but I can't remember.

 7        Q.   Did you draw this map?

 8        A.   I can't remember.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Here the ethnic composition of the population as

10     represented in 1991 and in 1995.  You have the English version of the map

11     in front of you.  Perhaps that is causing some confusion but it doesn't

12     matter.  I had a look at the map and calculated that there were 19

13     Serbian villages depicted on the map.  Can you tell us what the ethnic

14     composition of the Sanski Most municipality is today?  What is the

15     percentage of Serbs living in the municipality of Sanski Most today?  Do

16     you know anything about that?

17        A.   No, I don't.

18        Q.   So could we agree that there are very few Serbs in the

19     municipality now?

20        A.   Yes, we could agree on that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now go back to your statement, 1D205.  Page

22     5, line 12.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you didn't object to the admission of

24     P162.  Nevertheless, of course, it raises some questions.

25             Ms. Bibles, you used this map, and -- which depicts apparently

Page 2196

 1     the ethnic composition of the various villages.  The only thing you asked

 2     the witness about was whether it's in the southeastern area, that's where

 3     he lived, and you mentioned a few -- was it your intention to establish

 4     in any way the ethnic composition, either in 1992 or at 1995?  Because if

 5     that's the case, you should have asked the witness questions about it.

 6     And if you did not intend to do that, why didn't you use a map without

 7     any ethnic compositions?

 8             That's -- again, Mr. Lukic, you did not object.  But I think, in

 9     view of your questions, it's important for us to know what you intended

10     to prove with this map because you didn't ask any question about what

11     seems to be the core of this map.  That is, ethnic composition.

12             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, the intent of the question was as the

13     witness was describing.  Sanski Most in 1992 was to display Sanski Most

14     as an area that had villages of all ethnicities, and particularly with

15     respect to his area that they were mixed.  That's correct.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, first of all, you didn't ask any such question

17     from the witness, so it is not the appropriate way of establishing that

18     by remaining silent on it and just putting the colours on our screens.

19     That's one.

20             Second, if it was your intention to intention to establish the

21     composition, the ethnic composition of the villages in 1992, or at least

22     at the beginning of the conflict, then I think there exists a one -- 1991

23     census, at least not unknown in this Tribunal, which gives the details.

24     So then it would have been appropriate, first of all, to try to agree

25     with Mr. Lukic about the ethnic composition of villages in Sanski Most

Page 2197

 1     and then to present that either as an agreed fact or to do that not

 2     through a witness which remains completely silent on the matter, but

 3     then, rather, bar table the census on Sanski Most.

 4             This is not the way the Chamber expects the Prosecution to

 5     proceed in these kind of matters.  Irrespective of whether Mr. Lukic

 6     objects to the admission, yes or no.  May this serve you as guidance.

 7             Mr. Lukic, sorry for the interruption.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] We need to have a look at your statement, page 5

10     line 12 in the B/C/S version.  It's page 5 and line 23 in the English

11     version.

12             Here you mention --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, we still don't know where we are on the

14     English statement.  We don't see the page, we don't see the lines.  We

15     can't count line 27 because -- that's better.  Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC:  And it's line 23, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

19        Q.   Here you say:

20             "He told us to line up on the bridge in single file, half a metre

21     apart, and take off all our clothes, except for T-shirts ..."

22             Did you obey the person who ordered to you take everything off,

23     apart from your T-shirts?

24        A.   When they order you to take your clothes off, well, that person

25     didn't say that everyone should remain in their T-shirts.  Everyone was

Page 2198

 1     ordered to take their clothes off.  Some took everything off apart from

 2     their T-shirts.  Some remained in their shirts and trousers, but the

 3     person did not say that people should remain in their T-shirts.

 4        Q.   Page 76, lines 3 to 7, you yesterday said that someone

 5     remained -- some remained wearing their trousers, some wearing two

 6     T-shirts, or shirts, but no one kept their shoes on.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   So what you said in your statement can't be accepted, what you

 9     said in the transcript should be accepted?

10        A.   What did I say in the statement?

11        Q.   I asked you whether you obeyed this person.  Did you obey him?

12     How did you act?

13        A.   Yes, we obeyed him.

14        Q.   Thank you.  My colleague asked you about the injuries you

15     sustained today [as interpreted], and you said that you -- your eye had

16     been wounded and your head as well, because of the beating.

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   You didn't have any other injuries?

19        A.   I had been beaten in the stomach, the ribs, but I was visibly

20     injured in the head when I was beaten.  And when I jumped into the water

21     I hit a rock, as a result of which I had a wound to the head.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have a look at page 7,

24     line 7 in the B/C/S version, and in the English version, let's have a

25     look at page 7, line 21.

Page 2199

 1        Q.   In your statement, line 7, as you can see, or, rather, it starts

 2     at line 6, towards the end of line 6.  It says:

 3             "While I was swimming underwater, I felt that I had been injured

 4     in the area of the left shoulder."

 5             Were you wounded in that area on that occasion?

 6        A.   When I was swimming underwater by the T-shirt, a bullet whizzed

 7     by, grazed my left shoulder, so I was only grazed.  I didn't bleed.

 8        Q.   So you were wounded in the area of the left shoulder?

 9        A.   No.  No, I wasn't.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that someone designated you as a person

11     who had weapons?

12        A.   Yes.  At the bridge, when it was Elmedin Begic's turn, when the

13     soldier ordering us to jump from the bridge asked him who had weapons,

14     Elmedin pointed to the right and said, They had.  But he didn't say Raho

15     had or someone else had.  He said, They had weapons, and what he had in

16     mind were the weapons that were handed over at the check-point in

17     Stojinovic.

18        Q.   And then you go on to say that you were beaten by Chetniks on the

19     bridge.  What kind of insignia did they have, if you remember?

20        A.   They had different insignia.  Like I said, some were wearing

21     military uniforms.  Some were wearing blue uniforms.  Some had Chetnik

22     insignia.  Some had just regular items of clothing, waistcoats, jackets,

23     so it was all mixed.

24        Q.   But among the soldiers who came on the 25th of May, 1992, you

25     didn't recognise anyone because you were hiding.  But your mother

Page 2200

 1     recognised your school friend, Dusko Savic; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Before and at that time he was living in Kljevci; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   The second time when they came, they beat up three men:

 7     Kurbegovic, Ismet, Hakija Begici, and Sacir Begic; is that correct?

 8        A.   The first time when they came on the 31st of May, they didn't

 9     beat anyone when we set off.

10        Q.   So this was between the 25th and the 31st.  When they came that

11     time, is it correct that these three men were beaten?

12        A.   They came a number of times and they beat these three men.

13        Q.   According to you it was Ranko Cosic, Vico Ilic, Bosko Stojanovic

14     who beat these men up; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And did they also live in the neighbouring villages of Cosici and

17     Stojinovici?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you saw these same people on the 31st of May 1992; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   No.  They didn't come that day when they were taking us away.

22        Q.   Also in the Brdjanin case - we don't need to call up the

23     document, it's page 6389 in e-court - you said that they wore different

24     things on their heads, some of them had helmets and others were wearing

25     different caps; is that correct?

Page 2201

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And in response to a request by my colleague Ms. Fauveau, so in

 3     Brdjanin on the 30th of May, page 8689, when asked, you said that all men

 4     wore some kind of uniform - is that correct? - and you answered in the

 5     affirmative.  You said yes.  Would you still stand by that statement?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not get the transcript page

 8     and line numbers for the previous question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would read the transcript, page 41, the

12     interpreter didn't get the transcript page and line numbers for the

13     previous question.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The first page was 6389 and the

15     second page was 6389, also.  I just gave the line numbers, from 17 to 19.

16        Q.   And now I would like you to tell us this.  In response to His

17     Honour Judge Agius's question on page 6399, line 11, of the Brdjanin

18     trial of the 30th of May, you said - and you gave a longer answer, I'm

19     summarising:  Members of these units were not members of the regular

20     military force.  Would you still say the same thing today?

21        A.   Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, without knowing the context of, for

23     example, "these men."  Of course the Chamber, if it's not in evidence,

24     has got no idea what "these men" are, what it refers to, et cetera.  So

25     if you want us to take these matters seriously you should, one way or

Page 2202

 1     another, either to provide that one page or -- so that we can place it in

 2     time that we can have the right reference as far as time and place is

 3     concerned.  Are we still talking about the people coming to the village?

 4     Are we talking about the people taking him to the bridge?  "These men" is

 5     really creating a puzzle for us rather than it gives answers.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm going to

 8     try to correct this error right now.

 9             Can we please look at e-court 1D209, which is the page that I was

10     referring to.

11        Q.   We can only see a part of the question by His Honour Judge Agius.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Probably we would need to look at the

13     previous page, but we did not upload it.  But we're going to show this

14     exhibit -- actually, this exhibit, which we would like to tender.  We

15     have the answer of the witness.  I will broaden my question so that it's

16     clearer.

17        Q.   And so, Mr. Begic, I'm going to ask you in order to explain

18     things better, thus, the people who came on the 25th of May, 1992, in

19     uniform, Serbs, with weapons, and then these same people who came, the

20     ones in uniform, with weapons, Serbs, on the 31st of May,

21     1990 [as interpreted], were not members of regular army forces; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Begic.  I have no further questions for you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

Page 2203

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could -- Mr. Lukic --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, one thing.  We were -- we had the

 4     statement ...

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We had the statement of this gentleman, 1D205.  We

 9     would like to tendered it into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Without any limits, Mr. Lukic, which means that all

11     the inculpatory elements of that statement would be in evidence as well?

12             MR. LUKIC:  We can cut off the portions if Your Honours want

13     us -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We do not want it.  I'm just pointing at the

15     consequences as far as the -- if you -- and, of course, there's another

16     problem:  If you want to tender this into evidence, then we are -- is

17     this the statement taken by the local authorities?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Not for the purposes of this Tribunal, which means

20     that it does not fall within the scope of 92 ter.

21             MR. LUKIC:  That's true, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Then I will skip -- I will withdraw our request.  We

24     don't need the statement since the gentleman answered all our questions.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2204

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber gained the impression that

 2     you read into the transcripts all the relevant portions of that

 3     statement.  Under those circumstances, and I think that is what you

 4     hinted at, that you were considering to withdraw tendering his statement.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If that is the case, then we don't have to decide on

 7     the matter.

 8             There was another issue about the transcript.  Let me see.  There

 9     was something about the year, 1990.  Let me see ...

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  There was -- if you look with me at page 42, your

12     question --

13             MR. LUKIC:  Which page -- which line, Your Honour?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  42.  It is for me line 17:

15             "... with weapons, Serbs, on the 31st of May 1990 ..."

16             I may take it that you intended to refer to 1992.

17             MR. LUKIC:  1992.  And I think that I said so and the witness

18     heard the same.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then that is corrected.  There seems to

20     be little chance of real confusion there.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Any -- if this concludes your cross-examination,

23     I'll just check with my colleagues.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber at this moment has no further questions.

Page 2205

 1             Ms. Bibles, is there any need to re-examine the witness?

 2             MS. BIBLES:  No, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Begic, then this concludes your testimony

 4     in this case.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague --

 5     yes, Mr. Begic.  You wanted to address me.  Please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  If you permit me,

 7     Your Honour, I would like to say something.  I would actually like to go

 8     back to Mr. Lukic's question about the bridge.  It's correct that I said

 9     that those were killed squeezed through between the railings, so I don't

10     want this to be in doubt at any point, how my friends and my neighbours

11     were killed.  I said that we squeezed through and that is correct.  Even

12     today can you still squeeze through the railing, even though it's a

13     little bit hard to see in the photograph.  But the way in which

14     Dizdarevic, Enes was killed is exactly the way I described it, and I

15     would like the statement to remain just as it is.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which I do understand now is that he squeezed

17     through the upper part of the railing and what a bar below that.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So just under the very top but not over --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the middle, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  In the middle.  This correction --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Begic, for that.

24             Mr. Lukic, no further questions on that.

25             Ms. Bibles, the same.

Page 2206

 1             Then thank you for this clarification.  Then I, again, want to

 2     thank you - that was what I was doing - for coming to The Hague and for

 3     having answered all the questions that are put to you by the parties and

 4     by the Bench, and I wish you a safe journey back home again.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness is excused.  He may follow the usher.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, is the Prosecution ready to call its

 9     next witness?

10             MR. GROOME:  In a few minutes, Your Honour.  Based on my earlier

11     conversation with Mr. Lukic, he thought that he would take the entire

12     session, so we had arranged for the witness to be brought at noon.  As

13     soon as he said he was sitting down I sent an e-mail and they are

14     bringing the witness over now, but it may still take a few minutes for

15     the witness to arrive.

16             I do have a short matter that I could deal with at this time to

17     make productive use of the time, but it will be a few minutes before the

18     witness is in the building.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that.  Now usually the last part of the

20     morning session is a bit shorter.  Now we could also, after you have

21     dealt with the matter you wanted to raise, we could also take the break

22     then and then have two sessions of approximately equal length.

23             MR. GROOME:  I think that would ensure that the witness is here

24     at that stage, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The matter you would like to raise at this

Page 2207

 1     moment is which one, Mr. Groome?

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, prior to the summer recess the Chamber

 3     had raised concerns about the fact that the Prosecution had not used

 4     consistent colours in the Sarajevo court binder to denote the locations

 5     of the VRS and ABiH front lines.  We've examined the map book more

 6     closely and in fact we have used colours consistently, and we - in any

 7     map produced by the Prosecution - we've used the colour red to mark the

 8     location of ABiH forces and blue to mark the location of Bosnian Serb

 9     forces.  The problem is in the VRS maps, some of which are reproduced, in

10     those maps the colours are not used consistently.

11             So thus in the VRS map reproduced at page 1 of the map book, the

12     VRS used red to mark the location of the ABiH forces and blue to denote

13     VRS forces.  They used the opposite colour scheme in the VRS map

14     reproduced at page 49.

15             So that's an explanation of the different colours, and if the

16     Chamber would wish us to create an explanation or insert to add to P3,

17     which is that map book, the Prosecution would be happy to undertake that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd first like to take a look at what you just

19     explained.

20             MR. GROOME:  They were the maps on pages 1 and 49.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm just looking at them now.

22             I do see that opposite colours are used.  I think, as a matter of

23     fact, but I'm looking at my colleagues, that we should not in any way

24     change any of the original maps, and I think that your explanation at

25     this moment is clear to us and enables us to work on the basis of the

Page 2208

 1     material we find in that binder.

 2             MR. GROOME:  And, Your Honour, should we ever use these maps with

 3     witnesses, we will remind the Chamber of the possible confusion.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much for that explanation.

 5             Mr. Lukic, unless there's any matter -- and I see that Mr. Mladic

 6     apparently wants to consult with you.  Perhaps you --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to say a couple

 8     of things.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, you first have to consult with Mr. Lukic

10     about what you intend to say because you're represented by him.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And perhaps what we best could do is to take the

13     break now, both for the witness to arrive and for you, Mr. Lukic, to

14     further consult with Mr. Mladic.

15             We take a break and we resume at ten minutes past 12.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 12.14 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we ended the last session you consulting

19     with Mr. Mladic.  I do understand from your body language that there's

20     nothing to be raised at this moment.

21             MR. LUKIC:  That's true, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll proceed.

23             Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Hochhauser.

Page 2209

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  The witness is present but before I call him

 2     into the courtroom if I may just address two matters briefly.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 4             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  One is the issue of -- sorry.  The first is that

 5     the Prosecution provided to the Defence a proofing note of 2 September,

 6     dated 2 September 2012.  We provided at this point that note both in

 7     English and B/C/S.  That proofing note contains approximately 12

 8     corrections made to the witness's ICTY amalgamated statement which we

 9     intended to offer today under -- pursuant to 92 ter.

10             It also contained additional details of the information regarding

11     the witness's interaction with Mr. Mladic in April of 1994.  During the

12     recess just now, I approached Mr. Ivetic and asked if he would have an

13     objection to my showing the corrections contained in that proofing note

14     to the witness on paper during the examination rather than leading each

15     of the corrections separately.  Mr. Ivetic indicated to me that it would

16     be his preference to have the whole proofing note shown to the witness,

17     including the additional information regarding Mr. Mladic.

18             I've now done that during the break.  It's been shown to the

19     witness outside the courtroom, and so, Your Honours, if -- if it pleases

20     the Court, and that route is acceptable to the Court, I would ask that

21     that proofing note be allowed to be assigned a 65 ter number and we'll

22     show to the witness during the course of the examination.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm a bit confused.  65 ter numbers are not

24     assigned but are -- by yourself, isn't it?

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Ah, yes.

Page 2210

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore there's no need --

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'm sorry, I just meant to add it to our 65 ter

 3     list.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  65 ter list, yes.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And the number would be 28371.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Ivetic, no objections against adding it to

 7     the 65 ter [overlapping speakers]?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Nothing, Your Honours.  It's of an accurately

 9     reflect -- the statement -- the discussions have been accurately

10     reflected that took place during the pause.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Leave is granted to add the proofing note to

12     the 65 ter exhibit list.

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I would just add to that, because this came up

16     unexpectedly, although we had -- we had entered into e-court just the

17     redacted version that we thought we would be showing, the entire proofing

18     is not yet in e-court but I have hard copies to provide to the witness

19     and to the Bench, and we hope that it will be up in e-court within the

20     next five to ten minutes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.  And if would you provide the

22     Bench with the hard copies already, that would assist us.

23             Any other matter?  If not ...

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The next witness the Prosecution calls will be,

Page 2211

 1     Ms. Hochhauser?

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  It's Mr. Hurko Sefik.  I'm sorry,

 3     Mr. Sefik Hurko.  I apologise.  And while he is being brought in,

 4     Your Honours, I would just point to the fact -- to the adjudicated facts

 5     which bear upon his testimony.  They are adjudicated facts 1127 through

 6     37, and 1225 -- I'm sorry, I apologise.  1215 through 1217.

 7             Where the evidence in his statement has been completely covered

 8     by the adjudicated fact, the amalgamated statement has been redacted as

 9     per the -- as per the practice of the Court.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No protective measures?

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  No.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Hurko --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I presume.

16             Mr. Hurko, before you give evidence, the Rules require you to

17     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I

18     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  SEFIK HURKO

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hurko.  Please be seated.

25             Mr. Hurko, you'll first be examined by Ms. Hochhauser.  You'll

Page 2212

 1     find her to your right.

 2             Ms. Hochhauser, you may proceed.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Hurko, good morning, or good afternoon.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6        Q.   Can you please tell the Chamber, are you currently employed?

 7        A.   I'm retired.

 8        Q.   And where is it that you live now?

 9        A.   In Sarajevo.

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Hurko, you have given -- you gave a statement --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hochhauser.

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not uncommon to start with the first question

14     whether the witness would state his full name and date of birth, for the

15     record.

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I apologise.

17        Q.   Sir, could you please state your full name and date of birth.

18        A.   My name is Sefik Hurko.  I was born on the 22nd of November,

19     1957, in Rogatica.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Hurko, in -- on 24 January 1999, you gave a statement to

21     the ICTY; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And prior to that, on 16 November of 1994, you gave a statement

24     to local authorities in Bosnia; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2213

 1        Q.   Now, on the 1st of September, 2011, did you have the opportunity

 2     to review an amalgamation of those two previous statements into one

 3     document?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If I could ask the usher to please put 65 ter

 6     number 28362 on the monitor.

 7        Q.   Sir, do you recognise -- I see we're looking at the first page.

 8     Do you recognise the signature on that page?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And if we could turn to the last page of the

11     document.  I apologise.  The page before.  So it would be page 13.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I do recognise it.  It's my

13     signature.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

15        Q.   Okay.  Did you have an opportunity to review over this past

16     weekend and yesterday a copy of this statement in B/C/S?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And is it correct that yesterday you noticed two additional

19     changes that you wanted to make.  One being that in paragraph 41, the

20     third sentence should read 10 July -- "10 June" where it now reads "10

21     July"?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And in paragraph 42, where it reads -- where the first sentence

24     begins, "A couple of days after that," that the "that" should be changed

25     to "on 9 July."

Page 2214

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, on the 2nd of September, did you make a number of other

 3     observations and changes that you would like to make or small corrections

 4     that you would like to make to the statement?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If I could ask, please, for 65 ter number 28371

 7     to be shown to the witness.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And this is, just for reference, this is the information

 9     report that I was just referencing.  I believe it's up in e-court now.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look at it.  And it looks very much the

11     same as what we received in hard copy a minute ago.

12             Please proceed.

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Great.  And I see also that the B/C/S version of

14     it is there as well.

15        Q.   Sir, have you had an opportunity to review this document?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And I'm going to refer you now to the information in paragraph 2

18     on page 1 of this document in which it indicates certain changes that you

19     would like to make to your statement.

20             Does what's written here on the monitor in front of you

21     accurately reflect the other changes that you would like to make to your

22     statement?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hochhauser, what was shown in the English is

25     more than what was shown in B/C/S.  Therefore, I take it that you would

Page 2215

 1     like to ask the witness about the beginning of page 2 as well.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Sir, if you could look at all of the points on page 1 and 2 that

 4     are indicated with -- with letters before them alphabetically.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, have you had an opportunity to review just before --

 7     just before entering the courtroom, the summary that's listed under the

 8     bullet point 3, which begins, I believe, on the second page in the B/C/S

 9     version and goes through the third page.  And, on the English, it's

10     contained only on the second page.

11        A.   Yes, I had a look at this a few minutes ago.

12        Q.   Okay.  And does this accurately summarise the additional

13     information that you provided?

14        A.   Yes, it does.

15        Q.   Now, in regard to both 28362, which was the previous statement,

16     the ICTY amalgamated statement that you looked at, the 2 -- and -- and

17     28371, the changes that are now reflected on the monitor in front of you

18     and the additional information provided, if you had the opportunity today

19     to provide the same information, would you answer the questions the same

20     today as you did then?

21        A.   Yes, I would.

22        Q.   And now that you have taken the solemn declaration before this

23     Chamber, can you affirm that together 28371 and 28362, as well as the two

24     date corrections that we previously talked about, contain a truthful and

25     accurate account of the -- of your evidence?

Page 2216

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender

 3     65 ter number 28362 along with associated exhibits 08506 and 08880 into

 4     evidence.  I would note for the Chamber there is an additional document

 5     that's listed which is an associated exhibit, that's with the 65 ter

 6     number 09316, but on further consideration of that document it's not

 7     being offered because the -- the document itself doesn't add anything to

 8     the witness's statement.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

10             Then --

11             MR. IVETIC:  None, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  None.  Madam Registrar, could you please assign

13     numbers.  First, the statement given by the witness, the amalgamated

14     statement of 2011 I think it was.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28362 becomes Exhibit P164,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  Next one.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 08506 becomes Exhibit P165,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted.  Next one.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 08880 becomes Exhibit P166,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  And document 09316 becomes Exhibit P167,

25     Your Honours.

Page 2217

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that the Prosecution indicated that they

 2     would not tender that document; is that correct?

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  That's correct.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then what is missing, apparently, is the information

 5     report which has 65 ter number 28371 and was uploaded a minute ago.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.  And I also would like to offer that into

 7     evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  This is -- number P167 is now vacated.  Then

10     document 28371 becomes Exhibit P167, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P167, it being the information report dated 2nd of

12     September, 2012, is admitted into evidence.

13             You may proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, with the Court's permission I will

15     now summarise the witness's written evidence as contained in the ICTY

16     amalgamated statement which was originally our intention to offer

17     pursuant to 92 ter.  I intend to still lead additional evidence on the

18     additional information live.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although it being admitted, it should not

20     duplicate what is found there.

21             Please read your summary for the public, and I take it that you

22     have explained to the witness what purpose it serves.

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.  It's been explained to the witness that

24     what I say is not evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 2218

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  On 14 August 1992, Mr. Hurko was detained in the

 2     town of Madjar by Serb soldiers along with his -- he was detained along

 3     with his mother, his father, and his uncle.  Mr. Hurko and his father

 4     were questioned about Rajko Kusic of the Rogatica Crisis Staff and were

 5     severely beaten during that questioning.  His uncle is believed to have

 6     been killed.

 7             Mr. Hurko and his parents were then brought by Kusic to the

 8     detention centre at the Rogatica secondary school along with other Muslim

 9     men, women, and children.  On 15 August, 1992, Mr. Hurko was brought to a

10     cross-roads in the direction of the village of Kosovo, where he observed

11     a mini-bus coming from the direction of Rogatica which was carrying

12     civilians.  Shortly thereafter he heard firing, and the Serbs that

13     accompanied the bus returned to where he was and boasted that they had

14     killed all the Balijas.  The next day Mr. Hurko was brought to Rasadnik

15     camp and he made the connection from what he saw and heard there that the

16     men in the bus who had been killed were those taken from Rasadnik the

17     morning before.

18             Mr. Hurko was imprisoned at Rasadnik camp from 16 August 1992

19     until he was transferred to Kula prison on 30 April of 1994.  During the

20     20 months that he was imprisoned at Rasadnik, Mr. Hurko and his father

21     were severely beaten, and he both witnessed and heard about the routine

22     beating and killing of numerous other Muslim detainees.  Female detainees

23     at Rasadnik were taken out in the middle of the night, forced to perform

24     sexual acts with elderly male prisoners, and were also raped.  Prisoners

25     of both genders were subject to numerous sexual humiliations and abuses.

Page 2219

 1             Throughout his detention Mr. Hurko and the other detainees were

 2     forced to do labour, including going to the front lines and recovering

 3     the bodies of Serb soldiers from minefields.  Mr. Hurko's statement

 4     provides evidence of individual perpetrators of these crimes as well as

 5     who was running these crimes.  On 5 October, 1994, after a total of

 6     approximately 26 months in captivity, Mr. Hurko was exchanged.

 7             And that concludes the summary, Your Honours.

 8             So if I may inquire.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

11        Q.   Mr. Hurko, as you know, this Court has already carefully read

12     your statement which is now in evidence, so I'm going to ask you several

13     questions with the hope to either clarify the information in the

14     statement or add additional information, okay?

15             And you have to --

16        A.   Fine.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Now, if we could please have Exhibit P164, the

19     amalgamated statement, back on the screen.

20        Q.   Now, in paragraph 24 of your statement, after you describe being

21     brought to Rasadnik on the 16th, it reads:

22             "I asked Mujo Jasarevic whether were there any other prisoners in

23     the camp.  He said there were but they had been taken in a mini-bus that

24     day to collect hay."

25             Can you tell us what bay is being referred to?

Page 2220

 1        A.   I was taken to Rasadnik on the 16th, from the secondary school to

 2     Rasadnik on the 16th.  When Mujo told me on that day, he was referring to

 3     the 15th when I, too, was in the village of Kosovo.  So it was the

 4     previous day.  That is the day that I had in mind.

 5        Q.   Now, I'm going ask you -- and I'm guilty of the same thing, but

 6     if you could slow down a little bit, please.

 7             You were detained at Rasadnik camp from 16 August 1992 to 30

 8     April 1994; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can you tell the Judges, please, approximately how many people

11     were detained in the camp at various times during the period that you

12     were there?

13        A.   When I arrived in the camp, when I arrived in Rasadnik camp,

14     there were about 45 people there and the people who had came from the

15     secondary school.  So there were about 100 people there.  Some were sent

16     away for exchanges; others would arrive; and there were about 100 women,

17     children, elderly people, men who were fit for military service.  These

18     people were present in the camp during the period that I spent there.

19        Q.   And is it fair to say that the -- the number -- the actual

20     numbers fluctuated during that time-period?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   Can you tell us what the ethnicities of these people were?

23        A.   Muslims.

24        Q.   And can you tell us the age range of the people that were there?

25        A.   From 6 to 75 or 80 years old.  One woman even gave birth in the

Page 2221

 1     prison.  So there were new-born children and people who were 75 or 80

 2     years old.  Nezirja [phoen] Dizdarevic was the name of the woman who gave

 3     birth in Rasadnik camp.

 4        Q.   Can you describe for the Court what the conditions were in the

 5     camp in terms of food and shelter and medical provisions?

 6        A.   When I arrived in the camp where the men were, there were only

 7     certain facilities to the side and nothing else.  There were three tin

 8     cans in a corner.  I asked Mujo Jasarevic what sort of tin cans they

 9     were.  He said we used them as a toilet.  And in another corner there was

10     these suitcases.  I asked him about them.  He said there were some other

11     inmates, 25 to 30 of them, and they went to collect hay, but I realised

12     that those were the people who were killed from the previous day.  And

13     there was nothing else in the room where we spent our time lying down,

14     apart from those planks that I have mentioned.  We slept on those planks.

15     Food would arrive.  It wasn't very good.  It was pretty bad.  And it

16     wasn't much.  One dish consisted of perhaps 200 grams of food and we had

17     a slice of bread, and this would be provided to us in the morning and in

18     the evening.

19        Q.   And were there -- were there separate areas for the men and the

20     women?

21        A.   Yes, there were separate areas for men and women, but there was

22     no door, so everything could be seen.  And there was only one entrance,

23     and then there were two separate rooms, one for the men, one for the

24     women, but the door was open.  In fact, there was no door, so it was all

25     open.

Page 2222

 1        Q.   And the women and children and elderly that you've told us were

 2     there, were there -- were they treated differently?  Were their

 3     conditions any different than the men of military age?

 4        A.   No.  The conditions were the same for everyone.  There were no

 5     medical supplies, no medicine.  I didn't notice that they were provided

 6     with protection of any particular kind.

 7        Q.   Now, I'd like -- I'm going to turn, please, to paragraph 25 of

 8     your statement, and it says there:

 9             "From 16 August 1992 to 1 September 1992, I went to work and

10     nobody beat me."

11             Can you describe, please, for the Chamber what work you were

12     doing?

13        A.   When I arrived in the prison, I didn't go anywhere for a day or

14     two.  Later a mini-bus arrived and said, You're going to work.  The

15     mini-bus took us to the main centre in Rogatica, to the main street, and

16     we swept that street.  Mostly we took Muslim things out from their houses

17     and loaded them onto lorries.  The items were then taken to Serbian

18     houses or flats and we would unload them.  There were two mosques that

19     were razed to the ground, and we also cleared through those mosques

20     during that period of time in Rogatica.

21        Q.   When you say you took Muslim things out of the houses, how did

22     you know that they were Muslim houses?

23        A.   Well, since I lived in Rogatica, and there was this place called

24     Rudo as well, I knew that these houses were Muslims.  I knew that that

25     was the case before the war, too.

Page 2223

 1        Q.   And what do you mean by "things"?  What kind of things?

 2        A.   I mean stoves, furniture, sofas, dressing tables, fridges.  They

 3     took all those items out.  The rooms were left empty.  And sometimes

 4     they'd take water too.

 5        Q.   Now, were you ever given any choice about whether to do this or

 6     any other kind of labour that you did during your detention?

 7        A.   No, we didn't have any choice.  We did everything we were ordered

 8     to do.  We had to do everything.  The worst sort of things that they

 9     didn't want to the do.  They forced us to perform such labour, which we

10     did.

11        Q.   And if you can tell us what were the repercussions of refusal?

12     Or did anyone ever try to refuse?

13        A.   I didn't see anyone who dared to refuse to comply, and if anyone

14     had refused to comply with the orders, that person would have been

15     killed.

16        Q.   Sir, at paragraphs 25 through 27 of your statement, you describe

17     beatings of both you and your father on a particular occasion.  Can you

18     briefly give the Chamber, tell them with a little more specificity what

19     you mean when you say "we were beaten"?  What happened?

20        A.   I was beaten on several occasions.  My father and I were beaten

21     on several occasions.  Around the 1st of September, 1992, Miso Vojinovic

22     was the warden of the prison and his assistant was Despot, that was his

23     surname, and his nickname was Buco.  About 2.00 in the morning they took

24     my father out and he was detained for about half an hour.  I could hear

25     him banging on something.  Half an hour later, Despot or Buco came to

Page 2224

 1     fetch me and asked me to stand up.  When I got into the room, I saw Miso

 2     Vojinovic and Buco.  They took a baton, Buco was standing in front of me.

 3     He said he was interested in some sort of trenches in a place called

 4     Sarani and he was interested in mines.  I started saying that I had never

 5     been there, that I hadn't dug the trenches there.  He then started

 6     beating me with that baton.  I don't know how many times he hit me.  I

 7     could just see that my shirt was tight.  They later asked me about

 8     weapons and whether I had a rifle or something like that, and then he

 9     took a larger baton, and when he started hitting me with that larger

10     baton I fell to the ground.

11             When I fell, they took a bucket of water and threw the water over

12     me.  Then they told me to stand up, I stood up, and they took me back to

13     the prison where my father was.  When I saw my father, my father asked me

14     whether I had been beaten.  I said, Yes.  I asked him whether he had been

15     beaten.  He said, Yes.  In the morning when they had a look at my back it

16     was all swollen, and that was also the case for my father.  So that was

17     one occasion that I can describe for you.  If you need me to describe

18     other occasions, I can.

19             And then on the following morning some inspector called Djida

20     arrived, and he spoke to my father outside about 9.00 in the morning and

21     they took him to the police station in Rogatica.  I went to work but I

22     couldn't work there.  I remained standing.  There were two policemen, one

23     of home was called Pero Rajak arrived.  The other's surname was

24     Kovacevic.  They told me I should go to the station.

25        Q.   Sir --

Page 2225

 1        A.   Kovacevic then --

 2        Q.   -- I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt you there for a moment.

 3     Just going back to what you were telling us about that beating that you

 4     gave as an example.  You've described one -- that one incident.  How --

 5     can you tell us, did you see other prisoners -- other detainees subject

 6     to the same types of treatment?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And, in addition to that, could I ask you to speak a

 8     bit more slowly so that the interpreters and transcribers are able to

 9     follow you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

12        Q.   Okay.  Sir, did you see other prisoners treated to -- subject to

13     the same kind of treatment that you've described now for the Court in

14     terms of beatings?

15        A.   I saw them killing someone.  I would hear them beating people.  I

16     knew that similar things were taking place and even worse things.  After

17     the 28th of July, 1993, there were certain things that I heard and saw.

18     It wasn't just what happened to me and my father.

19        Q.   When you say there were certain things that you heard and saw,

20     are you referring to the treatment of the -- the similar treatment of

21     other people in the camp detained with you?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And, sir, did you ever hear during any of these beatings any

24     language, ethnic or otherwise, language directed at the prisoners?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2226

 1        Q.   Can you please describe that for the Chamber.

 2        A.   Which incident are you interested in?  There were several

 3     incidents.  Could you please specify the one you are interested in?  When

 4     they killed Becir Cutaj on the 21st of March, 1993, we were working in a

 5     place called Trnovo.  It's a village in the vicinity of Rogatica.  We

 6     were digging trenches.  About 1700 hours we returned to the camp, and

 7     Adena Musevic [phoen] gave us some macaroni for dinner and a slice of

 8     bread.  There was a dish by the side and someone asked whose dinner that

 9     was, and some said it was Becir Cutaj's dinner and that Vinko had taken

10     him to his office, so no one touched the dish.

11             We went to the room that we slept in.  We spent about two hours

12     there, and then you could hear some groaning in Vinko's room.  Some

13     crying.  You could hear some banging, someone being beaten.  This took

14     about half an hour -- this lasted for half an hour or an hour and then

15     there was a break for an hour and then it would continue, and that

16     evening Becir Cutaj didn't appear.  On the following morning Vinko Bojic

17     said that Suljo Kustura should remain behind.  He to do something.  He

18     remained behind.  Becir had been killed that evening, and Suljo buried

19     him.  He told us that he took him out in a sort of wheel barrow and he

20     had been cut into pieces.

21        Q.   Sir, what I'm specifically asking about is whether in -- in your

22     memory of any of incidents that you observed of beatings or killings

23     whether you heard -- whether there was a specific type of language coming

24     from the people who were doing the beating or killing directed at the

25     prisoners.

Page 2227

 1        A.   Well, they were cursing Balija mothers, Balijas, Ustashas, where

 2     is Alija for you?  Who did you vote for?  That's what they said everyday.

 3        Q.   Sir, I'd like to draw your attention, now, to approximately 1st

 4     of April 1994.  And can you tell us on or around that date where you were

 5     brought and -- where you began -- where you were brought, excuse me?

 6        A.   Exactly on the 1st of April, three military trucks came in front

 7     of the camp.  They said that all who are capable of working should go on

 8     these trucks.  We were there, and also from other Sartorovici [phoen],

 9     Torni Do [phoen], Osevo [phoen], other villages, there were other men and

10     everybody boarded these three trucks and we went towards Ustiprace.

11             About 4 or 5 kilometres away, they told to us get out.  When we

12     got out, we walked for about half a kilometre and then was a large number

13     of Serb soldiers there.  There were heavy weapons like mortars of

14     different calibres.  Also there were howitzers.  Now I'm not very

15     knowledgeable about this kind of thing.  So they lined us up there and

16     they said to us an offensive against Gorazde has been launched.  Now you

17     are going to be working here.  You will have an assignment to carry

18     ammunition and food there, and you should do all of this for the

19     military.

20        Q.   Okay.  That's --

21        A.   We were supposed to carry all of that towards a hill called

22     Trovrh.

23        Q.   And, sir, can you tell us approximately how long did you do that

24     work for?

25        A.   I worked until the 17th or 18th.  I carried ammunition and food

Page 2228

 1     everyday, and I saw -- I took a dead soldier from there, and about ten

 2     times I carried wounded people too.

 3             After the 17th, the 18th, we had a break for about two or three

 4     days, and then one morning, a truck came, and they said that ten or

 5     fifteen Muslim camp inmates were supposed to get on that truck.  They

 6     drove us towards Ustiprace, but before that there was this placed called

 7     Mesic.  That's where the truck went and we went through some woods, some

 8     mountain called Gnjila.  The road was a macadam road.  As we were driving

 9     across this Gnjila we got to this other side of the Trovrh hill, and you

10     could see Gorazde from there as well.  It was about --

11        Q.   I'm sorry, sir.  Can I ask you was this a different place that

12     you were brought to during the previous weeks of that month?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  Before we went to Mesici.  That's a different place.

14        Q.   And could you please tell the Court on the day that you were

15     brought to this different place --

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And, actually, if I can ask for Exhibit 167 to

17     be placed on the screen, please.

18        Q.   That day, did there come -- did there come a point when somebody

19     told you to speed up because General Mladic was coming?

20        A.   Yes.  But I haven't gotten to that yet.  Yes, well, that did

21     happen but I'll tell you about that later.

22             When they brought us to behind this hill Trovrh we saw Gorazde,

23     and they said that we should work in this forest and that we should cut

24     some logs and place them across some kind of hole and apparently some

25     tanks were supposed to go that way.  Then Vinko Bojic, the person who

Page 2229

 1     brought us there, said, Speed up a bit because General Mladic is supposed

 2     to come here.  And then we got a bit confused.  We started working a bit

 3     faster, and within three or four minutes a group of soldiers showed up

 4     together with Mladic.  These soldiers walked up to him to say hello.

 5        Q.   Can you describe, first of all, when -- when General Mladic

 6     walked up, you said with a group of soldiers, can you tell us how they

 7     were -- how he was dressed and how the soldiers were dressed?

 8        A.   Well, they all wore camouflage uniforms and they also had some

 9     kind of insignia, whatever.  I'm not knowledgeable about this kind of

10     thing.  What a general wears, whatever.  I mean, I didn't even dare look

11     properly.  But they all wore camouflage uniforms and they pridely said --

12     proudly said hello to him because the general had come.  And they said

13     hello and the Muslims had left the trenches over those days, and now

14     whether he saw something there, whether he didn't see anything, he said,

15     You see, America is feeding them, America is providing them with

16     clothing.

17        Q.   Again, I have to ask you to slow down -- slow down in your

18     answers.

19             Who said, "America is feeding them, America is providing them

20     with clothing"?

21        A.   Mladic.

22        Q.   And can you tell us, you said you heard other soldiers addressing

23     him.  How were they addressing him?

24        A.   General.

25        Q.   Now, what was it -- and if you can, just answer -- as I go

Page 2230

 1     through these questions, just try to answer the questions specifically.

 2     What was it -- what, if anything, did you hear General Mladic say toward

 3     you or about you and your group?

 4        A.   He congratulated the soldiers on their victory, and then when he

 5     got a bit closer he said to Vinko, Who are these guys working?  Because

 6     we were wearing civilian.  And he said we were inmates from Rogatica.

 7     And he asked whether we were loyal or whether we had been captured, and

 8     Vinko said loyal.  And then he said, Let them go out a bit here.

 9        Q.   Who said are they -- are they loyal or are they captured?

10        A.   General Mladic.

11        Q.   And what did you understand that to mean?

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would object as to that being

13     speculation unless there's some foundation for this witness being asked

14     to testify as to the intent of the speaker of those words.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the only question was asked from the witness

16     how he understood that.  Whether that's right or wrong and whether that

17     accurately reflects the intention of the speakers is a matter still to be

18     seen, but the witness may answer the question.

19             How did you understand that question?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just go on now.  He said that

23     we should get out and then we lined up, one next to another, and he asked

24     Vinko whether we were loyal, whether we were loyal to the Serb republic

25     or whether we had been captured at the front line.  And Vinko said that

Page 2231

 1     we had not been captured but that we were loyal.  Then he made a sign

 2     with his hand towards Gorazde, saying, See this Gorazde here, in a day or

 3     two it's going to be in Serb hands.  You who wish to remain here will

 4     have to be baptised, and those who do not want to do that will be

 5     transferred to Alija's state.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you -- could you take care that

 7     Mr. Mladic's voice is -- that he is speaking at low level of volume.

 8             Please proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.

 9             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

10        Q.   And did he say anything after that.

11        A.   He said that we should go to work and then he disappeared.  I

12     mean, I don't know when he left with these soldiers.

13        Q.   Okay.  And if you can tell us -- are you able to just tell the

14     Chamber where exactly was this that you saw him?  Where did this event

15     take place?

16        A.   It's below Trovrh.  I mean, I don't know the villages around

17     Gorazde.  I don't know their names.  There were 5 or 6 kilometres away

18     from Gorazde, I think.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

20     microphones be switched off when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

22        Q.   And is Trovrh a hill in that area?

23        A.   Yes.  From Rogatica and from my village you can see it from this

24     side, that hill I mean, and -- I mean, from both sides.  I mean, from

25     Rogatica and Gorazde you can see this hill, yes.

Page 2232

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Hochhauser, the interpreters request that we

 2     switch off all microphones when the witness is speaking.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I apologise for failing to do it, Your Honour.

 4             In any case, that concludes the Prosecution's questioning of this

 5     witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.

 7             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, that concludes the Prosecution's

 8     questions for it witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             Yes.  I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Ivetic.  If we take a break

11     now for 20 minutes we would have 50 minutes left for -- after the break.

12     Could you give us -- already give an indication as to how much time you

13     think you would need.  It is, of course, a 92 ter witness which is

14     different from a viva voce witness.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  I had already sent an e-mail to

16     my colleague on the other side that an hour and 40 minutes was estimated

17     for this witness.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we take the break first, and we'll resume

19     at 25 minutes -- no, let me see.

20             We'll resume at 1.30.

21             But could the witness first be escorted out of the courtroom.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

25             MR. GROOME:  Prior to the Court taking a break, something just

Page 2233

 1     happened in the Court.  Rather than myself characterise what happened,

 2     could I ask the Chamber to review the tape -- the camera that's focussed

 3     on Mr. Mladic during proceedings.  It happened at the last ten seconds of

 4     the -- when we all stood up.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll ask to be provided with a copy of

 6     the last minutes of what happened in court.

 7             We'll take a break and we'll resume at 1.30.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 1.09 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 2.04 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom

11     again.

12             Meanwhile, the Chamber reviewed the tape.  Mr. Mladic, you made

13     gestures at the end of last session which are inappropriate, which you

14     shouldn't have made.  Waving with your finger, et cetera.  You should

15     refrain from doing that.  Let that be clear.  It is inappropriate

16     behaviour.  At the same time, the Chamber, having considered it, saw no

17     reason at this moment under the present circumstances to take any

18     measures in relation to that behaviour.

19             But let it be clear:  Again, you should refrain from any gestures

20     which expresses agreement or disagreement with what witnesses say.  Under

21     all circumstances, you should not do it.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome back, Mr. Hurko.  The break took more time

24     than expected.  Apologies for that.

25             Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to start your cross-examination.

Page 2234

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I am, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 5        Q.   Good day, sir.  Today I have a set of questions --

 6        A.   Good day.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic is counsel for Mr. Mladic and he is the

 9     one who will cross-examine you.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Sir, today I have a set of questions that I need to ask you to

13     try and better understand the testimony that you have given, both in the

14     witness statement and in court.

15             I would ask that you pay attention to precisely what it is I'm

16     asking you so that your answers can be focussed on that question, and I

17     promise that I will try to go through this as easily as possible with

18     you.  Is that fair?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, first, I want to clarify some background

21     matters as to yourself.  Could you tell us about your educational

22     background; specifically, what school you finished and when?

23        A.   I finished a school for catering in 1980, 1979.  Whatever.  I

24     don't know the exact year.  I am a trained cook.

25        Q.   Fair enough, sir.  And I apologise.  I was just waiting for the

Page 2235

 1     translation into English and the transcript to catch up with us.

 2             If I can move along then.  Am I correct that you served a period

 3     of compulsory military service with the JNA?

 4        A.   Yes.  In the quartermaster's corps.  I was a cook there as well.

 5        Q.   Could you tell us briefly where and when it was that you

 6     completed your compulsory military service with the JNA?

 7        A.   In 1976, in Nis, Leskovac, and Pec.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And now you've mentioned already that you were

 9     in the quartermaster's corps.  Was that your only assignment or was there

10     another unit speciality or branch of the JNA that formed a part of your

11     compulsory military service?

12        A.   At first I had this infantry training and this gun.  The rifle

13     M-48.  It's the only thing I knew about.  That's all.  And then this

14     quartermaster's work.  I learned that as well.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And if you remember who were -- or was your

16     commanding officer for the -- both of the stint in the infantry and the

17     stint in the quartermaster corps?

18        A.   There was this second lieutenant.  I really cannot remember the

19     name.  It's been such a long time.

20        Q.   Then I'll move along.  Sir, am I correct that you, upon your

21     discharge -- upon discharging your duty with the JNA, that you had to

22     register with the local defence office to have your official duty station

23     assigned in the event of war or mobilisation?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And can you tell us where you were registered?  That is to say,

Page 2236

 1     which Office of National Defence were you registered in?

 2        A.   In Rogatica where I lived.

 3        Q.   And what was your official war-time assignment or duty station as

 4     per your registration in the Rogatica local national defence office?

 5        A.   I was on the reserve police force but I worked on the ground, and

 6     I hardly ever came for these lineups and whatever because I worked

 7     elsewhere.

 8        Q.   And am I correct that as part of this registration you had an

 9     automatic obligation to report for duty to your appointed duty station or

10     war-time assignment in the case of a war or a call-up?

11        A.   No.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For instance, if I worked in north

14     Yemen, if I was out there, I couldn't come.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the transcribers and interpreters ask

16     you to take a break.  You see "[Previous translation continued] ..." when

17     you start your question already.

18             Please keep that in mind and proceed.

19             MR. IVETIC:  I will, Your Honours.  And I apologise to both the

20     transcribers and the translators.

21        Q.   Sir, if we can move forward to the years 1991 and 1992, am I

22     correct that the JNA at that time began calling up citizens to be

23     mobilised for the events that were taking place on the territory of

24     Slovenia and Croatia?

25        A.   I worked in north Yemen at the time, in 1991.  I came back, and I

Page 2237

 1     don't remember that very well.

 2        Q.   Did you at any time receive a call-up summons asking you to

 3     report for duty from the JNA in 1992?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Am I correct that in 1992 you were working as a cook for RO Bosna

 6     Putovi, Sarajevo?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   At that time were you still residing in Rogatica or were you

 9     residing in Sarajevo?

10        A.   I lived in Rogatica with my wife and children, in the Rudo

11     neighbourhood.  I came to Rogatica every week --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear where the witness

13     worked.

14             MR. IVETIC:

15        Q.   And if we can look at your statement in paragraph 1 --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, have you noticed the observation by the

17     interpreter?

18             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.

19        Q.   Sir, if I can ask you to repeat for us where it is that you

20     worked in regard to the last answer, as the interpreters did not hear.

21     The only part that has been recorded is that you lived in Rogatica with

22     your wife and children in the Rudo neighbourhood and you came to Rogatica

23     every week.  They missed where you were working.  Could you please

24     complete the record of your last answer.

25        A.   I worked in Sarajevo, but I lived in Rogatica.

Page 2238

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, am I correct that we're going till 2.15

 2     today?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then it's time to stop.  That is, of

 4     course, due to the fact that it took a while to review the video.

 5             Mr. Hurko, we'll adjourn for the day, and I'd like to instruct

 6     you that you should not speak with anyone or communicate in any other way

 7     with whomever about your testimony, whether that is your testimony as you

 8     have given it today or whether it is your testimony still to be given

 9     tomorrow.

10             Is that clear to you?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.

13     You may follow the usher.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,

16     Wednesday, the 5th of September, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same

17     courtroom, I.

18                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of

20                           September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.