120905ED

Page 2240

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

2 MR. GROOME: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Those are the two

3 witnesses that we will be reversing.

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Hurko.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hurko, I'd like to remind you that you're still

8 bound by the solemn declaration you've given yesterday at the beginning

9 of your testimony. That is, that you'll speak the truth, the whole

10 truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 Mr. Ivetic will now continue his cross-examination on behalf of

12 the Mladic Defence.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 WITNESS: SEFIK HURKO [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

18 Q. Good day, sir.

19 A. Good day.

20 Q. Since we will be dealing with your signed witness statement, sir,

21 I wanted to see if you have a copy of it in front of you. If not, I do

22 have a clean copy in the B/C/S language that I can provide for you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please provide it to the witness.

24 Any need it to be shown to the Prosecution or ...

25 MR. GROOME: We accept Mr. Ivetic's representation that it's a

Page 2241

1 clean copy, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Sir, if we could start off at paragraph 1 of your statement. You

6 mention that on the 2nd of April, 1992, when you took the bus home to

7 Rogatica from Sarajevo that Serb soldiers stopped you at Stjenice. They

8 searched and checked the identities of people.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Excuse me. If it would be possible to also put

12 it up in -- up on the screen in e-court so that everybody else can

13 follow.

14 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely. That's P164.

15 Q. And, sir, am I correct that these Serb soldiers searched and

16 checked the identities of people but otherwise that you had no problems

17 with them?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And am I also correct that these soldiers checked the

20 identities -- I apologise. I'm told that there was no translation for

21 Mr. Mladic, so I'm going to have to repeat that question, sir, and please

22 bear with me.

23 Am I correct that these Serb soldiers searched and checked the

24 identities of people but otherwise that you had no problems with them?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2242

1 Q. Am I correct that these soldiers checked the identification

2 papers of all the people on the bus?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And do you know, were the people on the bus, did they include

5 persons of all ethnicities or nationalities?

6 A. I don't know. I think it was different, but -- I don't know.

7 Everybody showed their own documents.

8 Q. And then the soldiers just let you go; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, they did let us go.

10 Q. And for a point of clarification, were these JNA soldiers?

11 A. Camouflage military uniforms.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to go back to a document that you

13 mention in your statement, P166. That is an item that you discuss in

14 paragraph 4 of your witness statement. And it has been introduced into

15 evidence.

16 In your statement, you state that you knew of no enemy

17 strongholds in this area, that is to say May 22nd, 1992. Isn't it true,

18 sir --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could we also have P166 on the screens so we're able

20 to follow.

21 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. It's a one-page document in both the

22 English and the B/C/S, so everything is going to be on the first page.

23 Q. Sir, this document is dated the 23rd of May, 1992. Would you

24 agree with me that at that time in the area of Rogatica municipality and,

25 in fact, in some of these settlements that are listed in this document,

Page 2243

1 these villages had armed guards or watches in place --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you wait for me to finish the question, sir.

4 Would you agree with me that these villages had armed guards or

5 watches in place similar to the one that you were part of?

6 A. I don't know about these guards. When I came to the village of

7 Madjar, we'd gathered around the houses. That's where we stood guard

8 duty. That's what we called it at any rate. I had a pistol. Somebody

9 had a hunting gun. Nothing. Those were these village guards. And now

10 you're talking as if these were some special guards. It was nothing

11 special.

12 Q. Thank you. Thank you for the answer, sir.

13 Now if we look at this document briefly, the middle of the page

14 in both languages --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, there may be some confusion. It's not

16 entirely clear whether the answer to your last question relates to the

17 other villages or to the witness's own village.

18 Witness, could you tell us were you told that -- that you stood

19 guard duty in your own village, do you know whether the same was done in

20 the other villages of the municipality? Do you know or do you not know?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in these nearby villages,

22 yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You mean you know that they stood guard in a similar

24 way in those nearby villages. Is that ...

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 2244

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours, and thank you for your

3 assistance.

4 Q. Sir, if I can direct you to this -- to the middle of this

5 document in both languages, there's talk about the body of a Serb soldier

6 that had been in possession of the enemy forces being recovered. Do you

7 see that, sir?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I would also focus your attention to the end of that

10 paragraph where it says:

11 "In the rear, enemy forces killed two old men."

12 Do you see that, sir?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that this text would seem to

15 suggest that someone was armed and was fighting against the Serb forces

16 in Rogatica at the time?

17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I'm sorry --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. May I explain this.

20 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

21 Ms. Hochhauser.

22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm going to object to that question. I think

23 the document speaks for itself in terms of what it suggests and the

24 witness isn't being asked for his own knowledge on the matter.

25 MR. IVETIC: If I may respond, Your Honour.

Page 2245

1 JUDGE ORIE: You may respond, Mr. Ivetic.

2 MR. IVETIC: This document was presented by the Office of the

3 Prosecution through this witness. This document was admitted into

4 evidence by the Office of the Prosecution with respect to this witness.

5 Counsel asked this witness about the comment that there were about --

6 there being no enemy forces in the village and that these villages were

7 attacked. Therefore, it is quite relevant to address this witness, the

8 credibility of his testimony on that record, and again this is a matter

9 that was opened up in direct examination by counsel.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think Ms. Hochhauser did not object on

11 the basis of relevance. She was objecting on the basis of that we

12 shouldn't ask a witness to interpret a document, what it suggests, does

13 not, because that is to be derived from the text itself.

14 At the same time, I noticed that apparently the witness was

15 starting an answer in which he explains what his observations were. So

16 therefore, if you would have phrased your question in a different way.

17 And that's, of course, what the Prosecution did. They elicited from the

18 witness factual comment on what is described here. If he says there were

19 no enemy strongholds, that is his own observation and is not interpreting

20 the text.

21 Therefore, please rephrase your question in such a way that the

22 issue is dealt with but not by asking the witness to tell what the text

23 suggests, because that is what the Chamber can identify itself as well.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 2246

1 Q. Sir, having viewed this text, would you care to -- and having

2 refreshed your recollection with this text, would you care to revise your

3 prior answer that there were no enemy strongholds in this area?

4 A. There were no enemy strongholds in that area. But may I explain

5 this document that you've come up?

6 Q. Unfortunately, sir, the Judges and the Prosecution do not want

7 you to explain the document. I will ask the questions.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Don't explain the document, but tell us what you

9 knew about matters described in this document.

10 Please do.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Zlatni Do, where

12 this soldier got killed, as they were saying -- I don't know that he got

13 killed. But anyway, if he got killed, this is a place on the outskirts

14 of Rogatica. All the refugees fleeing from Rogatica before the war and

15 during the war had to go through this Zlatni Do. That is where they came

16 across land-mines. Some got killed, some got injured, lost their legs,

17 Muslims, women, children. Now, whether this soldier was supposed to be

18 there, whether he was on patrol duty, I don't know. But I don't know why

19 he would be there in the first place and what he was doing there. I

20 don't know. Possibly somebody killed him too, I don't know.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so you have no knowledge of the event, but you

22 told us that mines were there --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- which caused several people to be injured

25 including children --

Page 2247

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- and women.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's avoid a battle about what seems to be

6 semantic, what is a military stronghold and what is the presence of armed

7 persons. That, of course, not exactly the same, and therefore to invite

8 the witness to revise his answer on the basis of what seems to be at

9 least some -- some victims and some shooting and to have armed military

10 strongholds. That's, of course, to some extent a semantic issue.

11 MR. IVETIC: It is, Your Honour. And I hope that within a few

12 moments we'll have a much clearer picture as I get into matters that the

13 Office of the Prosecutor excluded from the statement.

14 JUDGE ORIE: We're looking forward to it.

15 MR. IVETIC:

16 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that you have no knowledge of any

17 existing armed Bosnian Muslim forces operating in Rogatica municipality

18 in the Muslim villages in May of 1992?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry -- I'm sorry, Mr. Ivetic. That's not

20 what the witness said. The witness said there are no enemy strongholds

21 in this area.

22 MR. IVETIC: And that's why I'm asking this question,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you're asking him about -- that's not your

25 question. Your question is does -- is it your testimony that you have no

Page 2248

1 knowledge of any existing armed Bosnian Muslim forces. That's something

2 different from strong enemy holds.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think that if you have phrased the

4 question like: Do you have any knowledge of, and leaving out whether

5 that's the testimony of the witness, then we also avoid any discussion or

6 whether it is the testimony to be given by the witness or the testimony

7 already given by the witness --

8 MR. IVETIC: Fair enough.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- would avoid that problem.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. IVETIC: Fair enough, Your Honour. Thank you.

12 Q. Sir, do you have any knowledge of existing armed Bosnian Muslim

13 forces operating in Rogatica municipality in the Muslim villages in

14 May of 1992?

15 A. In May 1992, I've already said there were armed Muslims without

16 uniforms. The police that fled from Rogatica had automatic weapons. I

17 also saw hunting weapons, I saw some M48 rifles in the hands of

18 civilians. And as for strongholds, I saw trenches. I did not see that.

19 Q. Fair enough, sir.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit confused by the last two lines:

21 "And as for strongholds," you say, "I saw trenches."

22 And then you said:

23 "I did not see that."

24 Is that -- did you see the trenches or did you not see them?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see trenches.

Page 2249

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

3 MR. IVETIC:

4 Q. Sir, I don't think you understood the Judge's question. Isn't it

5 true that you dug trenches in the villages above Radici in May of 1992?

6 A. Yes. When I went from the village of Madjar and when I came to

7 the village of Radic. I was there around the 20th of July. That's when

8 it was. I got this written on an ordinary piece of paper with a pencil

9 to report to Novakovici. When I arrived there I saw about 400

10 milled-aged men. There was a commander there. They called him

11 Commander Husein Hadzibulic and Ljubomir Muhamed was his deputy. They

12 said that those who had weapons should go to one side and those who did

13 not have weapons should go to the other side. I went to this other side

14 because I did not have a weapon so half of the people there were armed.

15 When I say "armed," I mean people who had hunting rifles;

16 automatic rifles, that's what the police had who had fled. This

17 Hadzibulic talked to them and said that Chetniks were attacking us, that

18 we left our homes. We have no homes. We have 10 kilometres more to the

19 Drina and we have to jump into the Drina. As for the rest, those who do

20 not have weapons, they would be in the work platoon. I left -- I went

21 away from there. I went to my children and nobody said anything. We

22 were there in the woods, about ten or 12 of us, and we went to dig some

23 trench, just like that. Just so as not to be totally idle. It was just

24 like that.

25 And also one day we made a road. We got together with shovels,

Page 2250

1 whatever, and that's what we did. Nobody called me up and said you're in

2 a work platoon and now you have to report every day so on and so forth.

3 So within 20 odd-days I already fell prisoner. Later on, I heard that it

4 was called work obligation.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, this that you've just told us -- first of

6 all, for the record, am I correct that at this time when you went to the

7 village of Radici, you joined the so-called Republic of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina Territorial Defence force under Mr. Husein Hadzibulic?

9 A. Well, that's it. Do you understand that? That's when I was

10 called to come there. I mean, you know, I came there for that lineup and

11 I didn't go anywhere else except for those two days when I did that work.

12 Q. Fair enough and was Mr. Hadzibulic's unit operating on the

13 territory of the Muslim villages in Rogatica community in the period of

14 May 1992 through August 1992 when you were captured?

15 A. Oh, no. That's the first time I saw Husein Hadzibulic. I mean,

16 I don't know what they were doing there. I went back into the forest

17 where my children were. Do you understand that?

18 Q. I do, sir, and I will get to all of that, trust me. This

19 portion, all this portion is not in your statement. Did -- did you omit

20 this from your statement?

21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Objection.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Based on?

23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I don't understand what he means by did he omit

24 this from the written statement. The written statement was prepared as

25 an amalgamation of his prior statements which contain the information and

Page 2251

1 have been disclosed to counsel and --

2 JUDGE ORIE: You're more --

3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Sorry.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, now are you answering the question

5 more or less and that's not what you're supposed to do.

6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm sorry.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could you rephrase your question in such

8 a way that we know how this statement was taken, who took initiative to

9 do what.

10 MR. IVETIC:

11 Q. Sir, we are now talking about P164. That is the statement of

12 which you have a hard copy in front of you, just so that there's no

13 confusion.

14 In the process of preparing that statement, did you tell the

15 personnel from the Office of the Prosecutor this -- this information

16 about Mr. Husein Hadzibulic, about the 400 members of this Territorial

17 Defence of the Republic of BiH armed with the armaments that you

18 mentioned. Did you provide that information to the Office of the

19 Prosecutor?

20 A. I read this statement, and -- I mean ...

21 Q. Yesterday we went through a rather significant amount of

22 corrections that you made to this statement --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, this is not about corrections. It is

24 about selection of topics in a statement, and that's a different matter

25 from a correction.

Page 2252

1 May I inquire with the parties first. Mr. Ivetic, your knowledge

2 of what apparently is not in the statement, is that based on any previous

3 statement or any previous testimony of the witness which was disclosed to

4 the Defence?

5 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely, Your Honour, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then therefore there's no way of not

7 disclosing matters, but, rather, a matter of selecting what the

8 Prosecution considers to be the most relevant; whereas, the Defence is

9 aware of other periods, other places, about which the witness testified.

10 If you consider that to be relevant, then you may elicit evidence

11 on that rather than to start exploring on who left it out on purpose

12 because that's clearly the suggestion you are making. Please elicit from

13 the witness whatever evidence you consider to be relevant. And if it

14 would not have been in one of the previous statements, then that might

15 have been different. But apparently the Prosecution has been transparent

16 by providing you with previous statements, which includes those portions

17 which it now apparently considers to be less relevant as evidence in the

18 present case.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, can you tell me what day and what month it was that you

22 first went to Radici and were -- first joined the Territorial Defence of

23 the Republic of BiH?

24 A. At the beginning of June, the 8th of June, when the attack on

25 Madjari commenced. We couldn't go into our house, so I went to Radici

Page 2253

1 with my children. It was about the 8th of June that I left the village

2 of Madjar. And the lining up I mentioned took place on, roughly

3 speaking, the 20th of July. I spoke about that just a while ago.

4 Q. You have mentioned a lineup. I would like to show you a document

5 that's been marked 65 ter number 1D111.

6 MR. IVETIC: And this will be the first page in e-court for both

7 the B/C/S and the English.

8 Q. Now this is dated the 29th of April, 1992, sir, and it's a telex

9 sent from the Staff of the Territorial Defence of the Republic of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina by Mr. Hasan Efendic. It describes calls for

11 co-ordinated action with the Ministry of Interior to blockade roads and

12 the prevention of movements by the JNA, as well as co-ordinating and

13 planning military action across the entire territory of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 Sir, did the lineup where Commander Husein Hadzibulic lined you

16 and other members -- other individuals up, did it include instruction on

17 any of these matters contained in this order from Mr. Hasan Efendic?

18 A. No, I don't know anything about this document. I wasn't there.

19 I've already said that from the 20th of July, 1992, I was part of that

20 unit. I joined the unit. And for 20 days, I was free. As of that day

21 later, I was taken captive. I was arrested.

22 Q. Okay. Now, am I correct that in Rogatica the MUP or the police

23 forces split into two; that is, that there was a Serb element and a

24 Muslim element that co-existed at the same time in --

25 A. I don't know anything about that. I left Rogatica on the 6th of

Page 2254

1 April, and I don't know what took place in the town of Rogatica.

2 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to call up -- this document I do not intend

3 to tender, Your Honours, as the witness has said he had no knowledge of

4 it so we can move along. I'd like to call up 65 ter number 1D176.

5 Q. And, sir, while we wait for this document, I think you will see

6 that this is also dated the 29th of April, 1992, and it's from the MUP of

7 the Republic of BiH, and we can see from the original that

8 Mr. Alija Delimustafic signed it. And it talks about the same situation

9 as in the prior document but this time on the side of the so-called

10 Bosnian Muslim MUP.

11 I want to ask you: You mentioned police officers being present

12 at the lineup. Am I to understand you correctly that we are talking

13 about Bosnian Muslim MUP members that were present in the lineup of 400

14 persons by Commander Hadzibulic?

15 A. Yes, there were some policemen from the Rogatica MUP.

16 Q. And these policemen were armed with automatic infantry weapons;

17 isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes. I did see automatic infantry weapons. I only saw such

19 weapons on them.

20 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you about Ramiz Alajbegovic. Am

21 I correct that this person was the former deputy chief of the police

22 station in Rogatica and after the split became chief of the Bosnian

23 Muslim component of the police in Rogatica?

24 A. Before the war, I think that Ramiz was the commander of the

25 police, not the chief, or perhaps the deputy. But later he became the

Page 2255

1 commander of the police.

2 Q. And would you agree with me that this police, commanded by

3 Mr. Alajbegovic, was in existence and was operating armed in the Muslim

4 villages of Rogatica municipality during the time-period of May through

5 August 1992?

6 A. Yes, they were in those Muslim villages in the municipality of

7 Rogatica. But they weren't all in the area where I was present. It was

8 in the other area in the direction of Sokolac. So they weren't all in

9 the area where I was present. Nothing was known at the time and everyone

10 went where they could.

11 Q. I'd like to ask you about something that I believe you do know

12 about. Am I correct that your father assisted Mr. Alajbegovic to recruit

13 villages in the Rogatica municipality to join the so-called Territorial

14 Defence of the Republic of BiH and planned to engage in combat with the

15 VRS?

16 A. No. No, this is how it was. My father on several occasions went

17 to Madjar from the village of Radici. He went there to fetch food and so

18 on. On one occasion when he was passing by he met Ramiz Alajbegovic, and

19 Ramiz Alajbegovic asked him whether he could meet up with the Lelek

20 family who lived by our village. He said, I'll see. If you can do so,

21 try and meet them. And when he was passing by, he saw one of the Lelek

22 family members. And there was an agreement that Ramiz Alajbegovic and my

23 father and several members of the Lelek family should meet. And then a

24 day or two later, as agreed, they had a meeting.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could I urge both counsel and the witness to slow

Page 2256

1 down when they speak.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Q. And am I correct that the Lelek village turned down the request

5 of Ramiz Alajbegovic to join the so-called Territorial Defence of the

6 Republic of BiH?

7 A. Yes. When they met Ramiz Alajbegovic asked them whether they

8 would be willing to join the TO to defend an integral Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 They said that this was a war between the Muslims and the Serbs but

10 everyone was going over to their own side and they didn't accept that

11 offer.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. I want to clear up something. And, again, this

13 will be the last -- well, strike that. Let me see, I'll try to move on.

14 You've answered some of the questions I'd already thought of asking you

15 now.

16 If I can ask you, sir: You testified in the Karadzic

17 proceedings; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I want to ask you about one aspect of that testimony which took

20 place on the 2nd of September, 2011. It's at transcript page 18223,

21 lines 14 to line 25. And, sir, in so far as there are no transcripts in

22 the -- in the language that you understand, I'm going to have to ask you

23 to please listen carefully to what I read to you from that, and then I'll

24 ask you about one particular aspect of that testimony. If I may then

25 begin, sir, if you're ready?

Page 2257

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you are aware that when reading usually

2 the speed of speech goes up, so please keep that in mind.

3 MR. IVETIC: I will, Your Honour.

4 Q. All right. Sir, now I'm beginning the quotation:

5 "A. The 22nd of May, I was in the village of Madjar where my

6 father lived. On that day, around 1300 hours, fire was opened on all

7 Muslim villages in the municipality of Rogatica; that is to say,

8 literally all of them. And that is when that happened for the first

9 time.

10 "Q. How do you know that fire was opened on all the Muslim

11 villages in the municipality of Rogatica?

12 "A. The village of Madjar is up on a hill, and you can see all

13 of Rogatica and the other villages like Kovalj, Vragolovi, Kopljevici,

14 Orahovo, Sljedovici, Tubrici. All of these villages could be seen, and

15 you could see the shells falling on all of these villages. You could see

16 all of that from this village of mine where I was, Madjar, and all these

17 shells were falling in Madjar," end quote, sir.

18 And the question I have for you is: In this statement in this

19 case, you very clearly state that it was small arms fire that occurred on

20 the 22nd of May, and that is at paragraph 3 of the statement. Would you

21 therefore have to correct the testimony that you gave in the Karadzic

22 case regarding shells falling on Madjar?

23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would just ask, if I may, that the witness's

24 statement at paragraph 3 be on the screen, made available to him, since

25 that's where the portion is that counsel is referring him to.

Page 2258

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. IVETIC: That's right.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I think he was provided with a hard copy.

4 MR. IVETIC: I believe he still has a hard copy.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you have a look at paragraph 3, Witness.

6 Especially the first few lines.

7 Could you comment on what Mr. Ivetic just read as your testimony

8 in the other case and what you stated in paragraph 3 as to the weaponry

9 used on the 22nd of May, 1992? Small arms fire, or shelling.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were from Serbian places,

11 where Serbs lived. And they fired from those places on Muslim villages.

12 All the surrounding Muslim villages that I have enumerated. And they

13 fired from small weapons and from -- they fired shells on all these

14 villages that I have enumerated.

15 The Muslims didn't open fire here. And it wasn't until the 10th

16 of August, 1992 -- or prior to that date I didn't see a single mortar or

17 artillery in possession of the Muslims. The largest weapons that I saw

18 were automatic rifles.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there.

20 The one issue raised at this moment is that the fire that was

21 opened on your village, in your statement it reads that it was small-arms

22 fire - that should be fire from the opposite armed forces; whereas, in

23 your testimony in the Karadzic case, you said it was shelling.

24 Could you explain the difference between your testimony in

25 Karadzic and what we find in your statement at this moment?

Page 2259

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were these small weapons and

2 then there were shells that were fired, and then there were these

3 infantry weapons, as I have said. But shells fell on the villages. I

4 don't know how I put it previously, but shells did fall on various

5 places, that's quite certain.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So your statement is, in that respect, incomplete?

7 Where it only refers to heavy small-arms fire.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I didn't put it clearly. I

9 am saying now that I do remember that there was shelling.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

12 Q. Do you believe perhaps that you did mention it and it was a

13 translation error, the shelling, and that's why it's not in the statement

14 that the Office of the Prosecutor introduced into evidence?

15 A. Well, I don't know what happened, but things were the way I have

16 just described them.

17 Q. I'd like to show you a document that we've marked -- that is

18 marked 65 ter number 08359.

19 MR. IVETIC: This is a document on the Prosecution's list. And

20 for now, if we can have the top of the first page in both languages.

21 Q. First of all, sir, looking at the top of this document, could you

22 verify if, in fact, you are the citizen listed there, Sefik Hurko, son of

23 Fejzo and Izeta, born 22nd November, 1957, in Rogatica, who is giving

24 this statement?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2260

1 Q. And do you recall giving a statement in November of 1994 at the

2 premises of the security --

3 A. [No interpretation]

4 Q. Sorry, I would ask you to wait for my question to be asked in its

5 entirety and then to please answer, otherwise we'll just have more

6 confusion and it will take more time to get through this.

7 Do you recall giving a statement in November 1994 at the premises

8 of the Security Services Centre in Sarajevo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And just so that we can be sure, at the time that you gave this

11 statement, would it be accurate to state that the Security Service Centre

12 in Sarajevo was subordinated under the government of

13 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic?

14 A. Well, believe me, I don't know who they were subordinated to. I

15 don't know anything about politics. I believe that that was the case,

16 but I don't know who was subordinated to whom.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could turn to the middle of the first

18 paragraph in the English and it's also the middle of the first

19 paragraph in the B/C/S, and I will read the English, and, sir, hopefully

20 you can locate this on the B/C/S, although it is a rather poor copy.

21 The part I'm interested in starts:

22 "As soon as we arrived in the village, we organised night watches

23 together with the other inhabitants. We were poorly armed, and I had a

24 CZ57, 7.62-millimetre pistol. It was relatively calm until 22 May 1992,

25 when heavy small-arms fire was opened on our village from the surrounding

Page 2261

1 hills."

2 Sir, would you agree with me that there is a distinct difference

3 between heavy small-arms fire and shelling that you have described today?

4 A. Well, yes, I would agree that there is a distinction to be made.

5 But I didn't express myself very well. I didn't know much about the

6 infantry or about the artillery and so on and so forth at the time.

7 Q. Sir, this statement was made two years - and we're talking now

8 about the statement on the screen from 1994 - was made two years after

9 the incident in question. Would you agree with me that your memory of

10 events was better in 1994, when you gave this statement, as opposed to

11 2011 in the Karadzic case or today, when you testified about there being

12 shelling?

13 A. Well, perhaps I was in a worse state then. I had come out of a

14 camp and for about 26 months I suffered a lot. If you read about this in

15 the statements, you will know. So I was in a camp for 26 months and I

16 went out, and I had to go to a psychiatric hospital for treatment there.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the point, apparently, you want to make

18 is clear to the Chamber.

19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. If I can have just one

20 second to consult with my client, and then I will have more questions.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could we keep consultations within limits and

25 otherwise to be done during breaks.

Page 2262

1 Mr. Ivetic.

2 MR. IVETIC: I will endeavour, Your Honours.

3 Q. Sir, this statement from 1994 goes into great detail, describing

4 what you've already mentioned to us when your father was asked by

5 Ramiz Alajbegovic to get villages to join the TO.

6 The question I want to ask you is: Did you or your father ever

7 help Mr. Alajbegovic to recruit other villages, apart from the Leleci

8 village, to join the TO?

9 A. No, never.

10 Q. Fair enough. And to --

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt you for a moment.

12 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think to understand the answer, it is necessary

14 to look at your question as it is recorded.

15 I understood you to ask if you or -- and I quote:

16 "... you or your father ever helped Mr. Alajbegovic to recruit

17 other villages ... to join the TO?"

18 The word "other" is missing and therefore the answer could be

19 misunderstood. Please clarify that.

20 MR. IVETIC: I will. And I thank you, Your Honour, for the

21 detail to attention that I missed.

22 Q. Sir, there -- apparently I either misspoke, but to avoid

23 confusion I'd like to ask you again: Did you or your father ever help

24 Ramiz Alajbegovic to recruit over villages, other than Lelek, to join the

25 Territorial Defence of the Republic of BiH?

Page 2263

1 A. As I have said, we never did that. That was in 1992.

2 Q. Thank you. And now you mentioned earlier, I believe, the 500

3 persons who were a part of the TO unit of the Republic of BiH in Radici.

4 Am I correct that approximately half of this number were armed with

5 automatic rifles, M48s, shorter military rifles; that is to say, military

6 weapons rather than civilian hunting rifles?

7 A. There were various weapons, hunting rifles, the M48 military

8 rifles. I had such a rifle. That's why I'm familiar with it. There

9 were also automatic weapons that the police had. That was in Novakovici,

10 not in Radici. Because the lineup I was in was in Novakovici.

11 Q. Thank you. Since Mr. Alajbegovic was the one that asked your

12 father to ask the villagers of Lelek to join the TO, am I correct in

13 assuming that Mr. Alajbegovic also had either a role in this TO or his

14 own armed unit operating in the region? If you could clarify that.

15 A. Well, it is possible that the police that went out was under his

16 command.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think we're at the one-hour point.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are. Could you give us an indication as to

20 how much time you would need after the break.

21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I believe I used about approximately 10

22 minutes yesterday, one hour today, and I believe I should be able to

23 finish within half an hour or 40 minutes in the next session.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you stay within the time-limits you

25 indicated before.

Page 2266

1 JUDGE ORIE: The transcript not yet states that we resumed. So

2 we're still in recess, although apparently speaking.

3 Madam Transcriber has corrected it, and the Chamber appreciates

4 that she has done so.

5 [The witness takes the stand]

6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll continue, Mr. Hurko.

7 Mr. Ivetic.

8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. Thank you, sir. For now I'd like to ask you some questions about

10 this group whether it was one or two under Mr. Alajbegovic and

11 Mr. Hadzibulic.

12 First of all, sir, did you ever become aware, in 1992, of an

13 organised attack that was carried out upon a military installation at

14 Trovrh wherein --

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. Did you ever have occasion to become familiar with an

17 event on the 4th of June, 1992 when there was an organised attack by

18 armed Bosnian Muslims upon a military installation at Veliki Zep?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Am I correct that both of these locations - that is to say,

21 Trovrh and Veliki Zep - are part of Rogatica municipality?

22 A. I don't know about Trovrh. But Zepa is in Rogatica -- part of

23 Zepa is in Rogatica municipality, whereas another part belongs to

24 Han Pijesak. But as for Trovrh, I'm not sure whether it is in Rogatica

25 or Gorazde. I really don't know.

Page 2267

1 Q. In any event, those are all places near to the area --

2 MR. IVETIC: One moment.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

8 Q. Do you have any knowledge, sir, of an incident that occurred the

9 3rd through the 5th of June, 1992, wherein there was an attack on Boran

10 village when Serb civilians were killed by armed Bosnian Muslim forces?

11 A. Sir, you keep putting questions to me about places where I had

12 never been. I was in the area between Rogatica, Gorazde, and Visegrad.

13 That's where I was during the war, in that part of the country.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now there are sometimes other ways of gaining

15 knowledge. If you have no knowledge, just say, No, I have no knowledge.

16 That sufficiently explains. Mr. Ivetic may not always be aware of what

17 you know, what you observed, or what you heard from other persons.

18 Please proceed.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 MR. IVETIC:

21 Q. Let me ask you, sir, about the 14th of July, 1992, and the

22 killings of Serbs in Drobnjaci and Duljevac. Did you hear about these?

23 A. I know of Drobnjaci and Duljevac. I've heard about that.

24 Q. To clarify, since the transcript indicates that you heard about

25 "that," are you referring to knowing about the two villages of Drobnjaci

Page 2268

1 and Duljevac, or are you referring to knowing about the killing of Serbs

2 in those villages?

3 A. No, no. I know of the villages. I've heard of villages called

4 Drobnjaci and Duljevac, but I don't know what happened there.

5 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that from May to August 1992 there

6 was fighting going on between armed Bosnian Muslims and armed Serb forces

7 throughout Rogatica municipality?

8 A. Well, in the area where I was, there was only shelling of the

9 villages at the time, and there was shooting from those villages

10 towards -- from some villages towards Visegrad. As for the other side, I

11 don't know about that. Whether there was any fighting or not, I didn't

12 hear of that.

13 Q. Okay. Allow me to move on, then, back to a point where you --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, just for my understanding and perhaps

15 for my colleagues as well. This is all about background, is it?

16 MR. IVETIC: Correct.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Only background.

18 MR. IVETIC: Only background.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps sometimes I would start with the

20 foreground and then to the background. I mean, the statement of the

21 witness is about detention, beatings during detention, persons being

22 killed when they were detained, a witness being forced to beat his

23 father. That is what is the core of his testimony.

24 Now, the background, and you might even seek to agree with that,

25 what we often see now is that witnesses are asked about whether they were

Page 2269

1 aware that a Serb was killed, and that may even amount to a crime. I

2 would not deny that. But it's all background, if I understand you well,

3 and that there's no, at least from what we've heard now, on the most

4 important elements of the testimony of this witness, there's no challenge

5 to, if I could call it, the foreground, the matters I just mentioned.

6 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, I think that also these matters

7 are important to challenge the credibility of the witness and to see if

8 there's any issue of partiality of the witness, and I believe that the

9 areas I'm going into now will show that, in fact, we cannot rely upon

10 this witness for everything.

11 JUDGE ORIE: There were a few questions about the reliability of

12 the witness. That's clear to the Chamber. But, again, background takes

13 now approximately 80 per cent of the time in cross-examination rather

14 than the core of what seems to be the testimony of the witness.

15 You may proceed.

16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

17 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask about some -- the names of some Bosnian

18 Muslim persons from the Rogatica area, and I'm going to ask you if you

19 know them. Jamakovic, Lutvo?

20 A. I know him.

21 Q. Hasecic, Alem.

22 A. I don't.

23 Q. Perkusic, Saudin.

24 A. Unknown.

25 Q. Two individuals: Bahulovic, Hapa and Bahulovic, Nane.

Page 2270

1 A. I heard the names, but I don't know them.

2 Q. Sabanic Samir.

3 A. I don't know him.

4 Q. Zagorica Muaz.

5 A. I know him. Just by sight.

6 Q. With respect to those individuals that you indicated you either

7 knew or had heard of, do you recall if they were members of either the

8 Hadzibulic TO unit or Mr. Alajbegovic's MUP unit?

9 A. Lutvo Jamakovic was a member of the MUP of Mr. Alajbegovic's.

10 And the other one, probably Hadzibulic. Hadzibulic's men.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. IVETIC: I would like to call up number 1D00212, which is a

13 document -- and it's page, I believe, 4 of the English and page 3 of the

14 B/C/S. And I apologise, this is a partial translation so it's not a --

15 it's a draft translation, it's not a full translation. I will only deal

16 with the parts that have been translated. And I apologise, it's page 3

17 in the B/C/S for this particular question.

18 The item at the end the page, sir, in the B/C/S talks about

19 various incidents, and it talks about these individuals whose names I

20 have just read to you lighting up or I guess -- I guess razing the park

21 hotel in Rogatica.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.

23 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that it is a document. That doesn't

25 come as a surprise to the Chamber.

Page 2271

1 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then you told us that there is only a partial

3 translation and not a full translation, and yet you will deal only with a

4 few pages. What is it? That's the relevant information the Chamber

5 needs.

6 MR. IVETIC: This is an intelligence report. It was disclosed by

7 the Prosecution. It was also used in the Karadzic proceedings. And I

8 apologise, this is how it was disclosed to us. I'm not going to be

9 seeking to introduce the document, I just want to ask the witness if he

10 can verify information relating to these individuals who he has just

11 named and whether he was knowledge of any of these incidents contained

12 herein.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it individuals he knows.

14 MR. IVETIC: Correct. That's why I asked --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Or he has heard about.

16 MR. IVETIC: That's why I asked before I presented the document,

17 that he identified four individuals that he either knew or had heard

18 about and what units they were parts of.

19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If I could ask if we could see the first page of

20 the document, just to see in e-court whether -- in the B/C/S, whether it

21 contains any kind of a stamp or seal. And if it could be scrolled down

22 to the bottom. Okay. Thank you.

23 MR. IVETIC:

24 Q. Sir, do you have any information about this incident wherein

25 these individuals that you named that were part of the both the same TO

Page 2272

1 unit as yourself and Mr. Alajbegovic's MUP unit and the attack that they

2 performed on the Park Hotel in Rogatica?

3 A. The Park Hotel, I don't know anything about. Of all of this, I

4 only know the Vodice village. There was a large nest there from which

5 they fired on the Muslims. The Jamakovic that you mentioned, Lutvo

6 Jamakovic, that's the person that I know. He gathered a group of men and

7 they attacked that village and liberated it, and the machine-gun nest was

8 no longer there. I don't know who was killed. This is all I know.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And do you know it by personal observation or did

10 you hear about that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about it. I was nearby and

12 I heard about it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: From whom did you hear about it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't recall anymore. But

15 I heard it from several people, the civilians who were there. I can't

16 remember exactly who it was I heard it from.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I have finished with this document since

20 the witness has gone and given us the extent of his knowledge of Vodice.

21 Q. Sir, I would like to ask you: Are you familiar with an organised

22 attack, or ambush I guess it was, that occurred at Jabucko Sedlo in

23 Kopaci wherein an armoured Praga, artillery piece, was actually taken

24 over by armed Bosnian Muslim forces in Rogatica municipality?

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the witness.

Page 2273

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you --

2 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers]

3 MR. IVETIC:

4 Q. I apologise, I misspoke. When I said Rogatica, I meant Gorazde.

5 But I believe, sir, that your answer did not come in -- did not enter the

6 transcript. Could I ask you to please repeat your answer?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But would now you also please repeat your

8 question?

9 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely.

10 Q. Sir, I would ask -- I would like to ask you if you are familiar

11 with an organised attack or ambush, I guess it was, that occurred at

12 Jabucko Sedlo wherein an armoured Praga, an artillery piece, and a tank

13 were taken over by Bosnian Muslim forces? And I said Rogatica

14 municipality but you corrected me that that is Gorazde municipality. Do

15 you know of this event, sir?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honours.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. Sir, I'd like to now turn to a topic that is related to some

23 information that you gave when you testified in Sarajevo to the State

24 Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the trial of Stojan Perkovic, 15th

25 October 2009. First of all, sir, do you recall giving testimony in that

Page 2274

1 case?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And maybe so that we can -- well, I apologise. The transcripts

4 are only in English so I don't think they will be of assistance to the

5 witness. But, sir, if you need to be refreshed about these items I'm

6 going to ask you about, I will put up the transcript and I will read it

7 to you. But I think it's a very simple issue.

8 Do you remember in that case that you identified that you gave

9 additional statements to the SIPA metro special police and also the

10 Association of Women Victims of War? In B/C/S that would be

11 "Zene Zrtava Rata."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And can you tell us when it was that you have given these

14 statements and if you have copies in your possession?

15 A. I don't have those copies and I can't really remember. It was

16 five or six years ago that I made the statement to the Association of

17 Women Victims of War. And as for SIPA, that was perhaps -- the statement

18 that I made was perhaps half a year or a year before Perkovic was

19 arrested.

20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, for the record the Defence was not

21 provided those statements. We did ask the Office of the Prosecutor and

22 they did indicate that they do not have them in their possession.

23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: That's correct, Judge.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 Please proceed.

Page 2275

1 MR. IVETIC:

2 Q. Were you approached by these organisations or did they approach

3 you to make statements?

4 A. They approached me to get that statement from me.

5 Q. Now I want to focus with you upon the statement given to the

6 Women Victims of War Association. Am I correct that is headed by a

7 Ms. Bakira Hasecic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are you or are have you ever been a member of that organisation

10 headed by Ms. Bakira Hasecic?

11 A. Yes. I am a member.

12 Q. Sir, my information is that persons who have given statements to

13 that organisation and are members receive a monthly stipend of up to 350

14 euros a month for their statement. Did you receive or have you ever

15 received any stipend or money in exchange for giving your statement to

16 the Women Victims of War Association?

17 A. Yes. And it's not euros but marks. Yes, I did receive it.

18 Q. Thank you for the correction, sir.

19 Now I'd like --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one --

21 Did you receive one stipend or did you receive it on a monthly

22 basis; and, if so, for how long?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received them on a monthly basis

24 and it has been going on for three years now. I've been a member of that

25 organisation for three years, and this organisation includes people who

Page 2276

1 were sexually abused. They may be members of the organisation. Those

2 who are not victims of sexual abuse may not be members of this

3 organisation. So once it was established what had happened to me at the

4 camp, then I started receiving this stipend.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, that means altogether over three years

6 approximately 12.000, you say deutschemarks, but they do not exist

7 anymore --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But I still receive that.

9 That is the law. Everyone who was a victim of sexual abuse would receive

10 that, and I still receive it to this day.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it, therefore, your testimony that all

12 victims get such a stipend on a monthly basis or only those who have

13 given statements to the organisation?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. There are quite a few

15 people who have provided statements and they do not receive anything.

16 It's only for those people who were sexually abused, who were raped and

17 whatnot.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Just --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can just clarify. Perhaps the

22 Chamber will think it is me that's giving evidence, but the Bosnian

23 money, despite -- for historical reasons is still referred to as

24 deutschemarks even though Your Honour is correct.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 2277

1 MR. IVETIC: Actually, counsel is not accurate.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- let's -- let's leave out this detail.

3 We have an idea of the approximate amount of money involved and that's

4 what the witness receives.

5 MR. IVETIC: I was going to ask the witness to answer if that

6 was ...

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: If you think it needs clarification, Mr. Ivetic,

9 please go ahead.

10 MR. IVETIC:

11 Q. Sir, when you say marks, are we talking about the convertible

12 marks which have a fixed rate of exchange with the euro that are

13 circulated in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina today, with the

14 abbreviation KM.

15 A. That are in circulation today in Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes, and

16 they have a fixed rate of exchange with the euro. And it's about -- it's

17 the equivalent of around anywhere between 175 and 200 euros. Yeah, well,

18 after what we've been through, you know, it's not bad.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Two marks to one euro, that's approximately.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. IVETIC: I will.

22 Q. Sir, now I'd like to turn to your testimony about the direct

23 interactions that you claim you had with General Mladic in 1994.

24 First of all, sir, can you agree with me that you neither

25 mentioned that in the two statements you gave to the BiH authorities

Page 2278

1 1994, nor these two statements that you've identified to SIPA and this

2 association, nor the two statements that you gave to the Office of the

3 Prosecutor of this Tribunal. Is that correct?

4 A. Well, that was when I was exchanged. My first statement was

5 given in 1994. I was taken to the court by this military unit in Bosnia

6 and Herzegovina, and I think that's where I gave the statement.

7 Now, the later statement that I provided in November when I went

8 to the Security Services Centre, I began giving my statement but then a

9 shell struck that building and we had to flee to the basement. So then I

10 started giving it again, but then we had to flee to the basement three

11 times. Now you can imagine what was like for me after I had spent 26

12 months in the camp. We were only able to put together some six pages or

13 so at this time, and I just couldn't think of what it was that I could

14 tell them.

15 As for the other statement about Perkovic, to do with the

16 Perkovic thing, they wanted me to talk about the people who had been

17 arrested, and that's why I didn't provide the statement. The same is

18 true for the Karadzic case. I didn't provide any statements.

19 Q. And you testified in two proceedings in the State Court of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina wherein you also never mentioned this encounter with

21 General Mladic; is that correct?

22 A. Well, no, not for those two cases, because it wasn't necessary.

23 Because it had to do with other crimes committed by those people.

24 Q. Let's focus on the encounter itself. Can you describe for us how

25 General Mladic was dressed?

Page 2279

1 A. He had a military camouflage uniform, as far as I can recall. I

2 think he didn't have any cap on his head. There was a lot -- there were

3 a lot of troops around him. They all wore camouflage uniforms. That's

4 what the Serbs wore. He had some insignia, but I didn't really know much

5 about them. He was a general or something.

6 Q. And just to be clear, when Mr. Mladic asked if those of you

7 working were loyal or captured, am I correct that Mr. Mladic was told

8 that you were, in fact, loyal citizens rather than captured prisoners?

9 And I'm referring to what Mr. Bojic told him.

10 A. Mr. Bojic, or, rather, Mladic asked Mr. Bojic who are these men?

11 And Bojic said, These are prisoners from the Rogatica camp. And then

12 Mladic asked, Are they loyal or were they captured? And Bojic said, They

13 are loyal. And then he said, Well, let them come out from the ditch

14 where we were hiding. When we got out --

15 Q. Let me focus on the aspect of your -- of this testimony. Isn't

16 that correct, sir, that there were other people there also performing

17 tasks from, for instance, Satorovici, this area where they had tents set

18 up that -- where these people were sleeping with -- were co-habitating

19 with the Serbian army?

20 A. Do you mean the village of Satorovici?

21 Q. Yes, among other things.

22 A. Satorovici village, also Tmorni Do. These were loyal villages

23 until 1993. In November 1993 they were all taken to Rogatica camp and

24 then we were assigned to provide food to those people. This was as of

25 April 1st, 1994, and onwards, and this is when we had this meeting with

Page 2280

1 Mladic. There were people from Satorovici from the camp. I can't recall

2 all the names. I know, for instance, Vatar [phoen] Semso,

3 Mujo Jasarevic, Trusmo Mufti and so on. They were there when Mladic was

4 there.

5 Q. How far away were you from General Mladic during this encounter

6 with him?

7 A. When we got out it was more than 4 or 5 metres, when we stood

8 there as he was saying that to us.

9 Q. Did you or any of the other prisoner there correct Bojic or

10 advise General Mladic of the fact that you were prisoners or captured

11 combatants rather than loyal citizens?

12 A. We didn't say anything. It was only Bojic who spoke.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, there is a great risk of confusion.

15 Captured was earlier referred to as captured at the front line as

16 a combatant. Now, if you're not captured at the front line as a

17 combatant, apparently you're considered to be loyal, but loyal, in such a

18 context, does not mean - and I'll ask the witness what it may not mean.

19 When you had an encounter with Mr. Mladic, were you at that time

20 free to go wherever you wanted to go, or were you not free to move as you

21 wished?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, we didn't dare go

23 anywhere where we wanted to go ourselves. We just went to where they

24 took us.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic, where there seemed to be a kind of

Page 2281

1 a loyal and being captured at the front line, there may be a category of

2 persons being loyal, and, at the same time, captured but then in a

3 different way. So we should avoid any confusion about that, and there

4 may be not be the dichotomy which is suggested in the -- in the

5 conversation that we heard about.

6 MR. IVETIC: Well, my question was then did -- so Bojic

7 misrepresented the situation to General Mladic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think, as a matter of fact, it's the wording

9 used. We have heard from the witness whether he was free to go at that

10 moment, and certainly it was -- if we under -- if we take that as a

11 starting point, it certainly, the conversation, did not give the details

12 and gave a dichotomy which may not be one which existed in reality.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. IVETIC:

15 Q. Now, at that time, sir, neither you nor any of the other

16 individuals there brought to the attention of General Mladic the

17 conditions under which you were being treated in detention. Is that

18 accurate?

19 A. No. We were trembling, we were shaking. None of us dared speak,

20 none of us prisoners who were working there. He only talked to Vinko.

21 He was the warden of the prison in Rogatica, and he talked to hum.

22 Q. And, in fact, sir, do you know the -- the location where this

23 took place? Could you describe that for us? Isn't this, in fact, rather

24 far away from the detention facility where you were being detained?

25 A. I would say maybe 15, 20 kilometres away from the prison that we

Page 2282

1 were. But when we were brought in on the 1st of April, that's when the

2 operation against Gorazde took place, and we took food, ammunition,

3 everything else towards Trovrh. The hill of Trovrh.

4 When we had a break for about two or three days, a group did not

5 go out to take food there. Then the military truck came one morning and

6 said that 10 or 15 of us should go on this truck somewhere else, and we

7 went elsewhere. We went to this other place, not the place where we had

8 taken food before.

9 Q. You've already given us all this information during the direct

10 examination. My focus was on the place where you had the encounter with

11 Mr. Mladic. Am I correct that that is not located near the detention

12 facility?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Has the witness not answered that question, 15 to 20

14 kilometres?

15 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I apologise. I missed that part.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I also observe that you are about at the

17 time you indicated you would need.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I have approximately six minutes or

20 seven minutes of questions remaining, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

23 Q. Sir, I'd like to move to another topic of your testimony.

24 At paragraphs 51 through 60 --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could Mr. Mladic lower his voice. Most likely to be

Page 2283

1 achieved by taking off his earphones when he consults with members of the

2 Defence team.

3 MR. IVETIC:

4 Q. Sir, just one last question about that -- about the encounter

5 with Mr. Mladic before --

6 A. May I just interrupt you for a second. Very often Mr. Mladic is

7 showing me something with his finger.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, if that is the case, and we may verify

9 that, would you refrain from making any gestures, either approving or

10 disapproving. I saw, for example, before the break that when you

11 apparently happy in the way in which Mr. Ivetic conducted his

12 cross-examination, it was thumbs up. You should refrain from that.

13 I said that yesterday to you. I repeat it today. And if it

14 continues, then please be aware that the Chamber may take measures which

15 might be similar to the ones we took last week.

16 Please be aware of that. This is a clear warning to you. We'll

17 review, during the break, or later today, whether you made such gestures.

18 And you may remain seated when I address you.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

20 MR. IVETIC:

21 Q. As I was sayings, sir, one final question about the encounter

22 with Mr. Mladic before I move onto my last topic --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic can consult with Mr. Lukic during the

24 break. So it should stop now at this very moment.

25 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic, consultation in the break which will be in

Page 2284

1 20 minutes from now.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Q. Sir, this encounter with Mr. Mladic: Am I correct it is near the

5 Jabucko Sedlo or Tritak [phoen] location?

6 A. I don't know what the name of this place is. It belongs to

7 Gorazde.

8 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move to another topic of your

9 testimony at paragraphs 51 through 60 of your statement, which is P164.

10 While we wait for that to come up, sir, can I ask you: Before

11 the conflict, did you take much interest in politics?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Am I correct that during the conflict - that is to say, before

14 you were captured - you did not have occasion to follow the politics

15 going on in Rogatica during that time?

16 A. I did not.

17 Q. And during your detention in the various locations you have

18 testified to, during that time-period, I suspect you also did not have

19 occasion to follow politics in Rogatica. Am I correct?

20 A. In which period?

21 Q. From August 15th, 1992, until the time that you were exchanged,

22 you did not have occasion to follow politics in Rogatica during that

23 time, did you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, as far as the Crisis Staff in Rogatica is concerned, you

Page 2285

1 never were present for any of their meetings, were you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Therefore, I'm confused, sir, how it is that you are able to give

4 quite detailed information about the composition of the Crisis Staff of

5 Rogatica at these paragraphs of your statement. Am I correct, sir, that

6 most of this information in paragraphs 51 through 60 of your statement

7 actually was given to you by others, including either security organs in

8 Sarajevo or Ms. Bakira Hasecic's organisation or others helping you to

9 prepare for your testimony before the Tribunal?

10 A. No, no one did that. I heard about that while I was in prison

11 from Serbs. These people that you are referring to and that you have in

12 mind, Rajko Kusic, everybody else. Tell me their names and I will tell

13 you.

14 Q. Tell us how precisely how you know Jadranko Vukovic was called

15 Captain on the Crisis Staff?

16 A. He was a teacher in Rogatica before the war. And some dogs were

17 brought to Rogatica and he trained these dogs, and he was a captain at

18 the Crisis Staff. That's what they called him. He was supposed to train

19 these dogs.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the question was how do you know that on

21 the Crisis Staff they used to call him captain? How do you know that is

22 what they called him in the Crisis Staff?

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These commanders in prison, they

25 mentioned that. And that's what they said, that they were on the Crisis

Page 2286

1 Staff.

2 MR. IVETIC:

3 Q. How is it that you know Radomir Furtula commanded the attacks on

4 Rogatica, Ustiprace, and Gorazde as is stated in paragraph 56 of your

5 statement?

6 I'm told that there is a problem with the translation. Could you

7 tell us how it is that you know Radomir Furtula commanded the attacks on

8 Rogatica, Ustiprace, and Gorazde as is stated in paragraph 56 of your

9 statement.

10 A. Radomir Furtula was born in Rogatica and he was a military man

11 before the war. He held the rank of major. He came several times --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you here. Please carefully listen to the

13 question.

14 In your statement you say:

15 "I know he commanded the attacks on Rogatica, Ustiprace, and

16 Gorazde."

17 How do you know this?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew him before the war. He was

19 born in 1957. He was a military man. He was a major. And he came to

20 Rogatica --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Again, where he was born, how you knew him, that's

22 not the question. Why and how do you know that he commanded these

23 attacks I just mentioned? Were you present during the attacks, did you

24 hear it from someone; and, if so, from whom? That's the question.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Vinko Bojic we heard that he

Page 2287

1 was in command in these places, Rogatica, Gorazde. We heard about that

2 from Vinko who was the prison warden. That's what he said to us when we

3 came to prison, Vinko.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

6 MR. IVETIC:

7 Q. And looking at paragraph 57 of your statement, what is the basis

8 of your knowledge that Razdoljac, Djuko, was issuing orders to commanders

9 of the prisons?

10 A. Barracks were right by the prison, and when we were in prison he

11 came to the prison. He always asked Vinko for us to go out and to unload

12 ammunition and other things that came to Rogatica. As for all of this

13 information, we heard about all that from Vinko Bojic. He told us who

14 was who, and that's what I heard from him.

15 Q. And when you say that this individual, Djuko, Razdoljac was

16 issuing orders to commanders of the prison, would that include the

17 Rasadnik prison?

18 A. Rasadnik was the prison and he came there and he told Vinko to

19 give him these prisoners to unload things. He didn't ask. He just said,

20 You will give me such and such a number of people to unload ammunition.

21 And it was mostly ammunition that we unloaded there where he was, at the

22 barracks.

23 Q. How do you reconcile that with your statement at paragraph 44

24 wherein you state that Rajko Kusic had 100 per cent control over Rasadnik

25 prison. Are these the same individuals or different individuals?

Page 2288

1 A. I have already described Rajko Kusic, I think, when he came to

2 the prison. And to be very accurate, there were four or five inmates who

3 worked with Rajko Kusic in the same company, that is Huso Krajina,

4 Vatar Semso, Mujo Jasarevic, Orso [phoen], all of them had worked with

5 Rajko Kusic and knew him very well.

6 Further on, when I was arrested, I was brought before Rajko Kusic

7 and that is how he introduced himself. He said that he was Rajko Kusic.

8 Also, when we were supposed to be exchanged, he came and he said that he

9 would no longer feed us, that he would send us to Alija so that Alija

10 could feed us, and that's already contained in my statement.

11 Q. Two last points, sir. In your proofing session relating to

12 Mr. Mladic, you are quoted as saying that you believe Mladic is a butcher

13 and your opinion is that "everything what happened in the camps was

14 Mladic's idea." Sir this accurately reflect your sentiments?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And -- and yet you never saw Mladic at any of the camps or

17 prisons that you were at, did you?

18 A. I did not see him in any one of the prisons.

19 Q. Are these your personal sentiments or something that someone else

20 told you to say at this Tribunal?

21 A. No, no, these are my personal feelings. When he said that we

22 should all be christened and that we would be transferred to Alija's

23 state, and there's nothing that I didn't mention in that statement.

24 MR. IVETIC: One moment.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please, at low voice.

Page 2289

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MR. IVETIC:

3 Q. Sir, am I correct that apart from the encounter that you have

4 testified about, you never once encountered Mladic again, and, thus,

5 never saw him committing any acts -- harming any individual in your

6 presence?

7 A. No. That time I saw him where I was -- well, I never saw him

8 again. Except for that one time that I described.

9 Q. Okay. I want to put it to you - and this is my final question,

10 sir - or ask you: Does your personal sentiment towards Mr. Mladic mean

11 that you are willing to do whatever it takes to get him convicted?

12 A. I would do whatever I could to have him convicted as much as

13 possible.

14 MR. IVETIC: No further questions, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

16 May I put one additional question in relation to that.

17 Would you also not tell the truth in order to achieve that

18 Mr. Mladic would be convicted?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Just what I said. I stand

20 by that. And that offended me terribly. When he said that we either had

21 to be christened or transferred to Alija's state. And there was no other

22 way out for me. I could only be destroyed. That's why I'm offended.

23 And I wouldn't say anything else. I never saw him again. That was the

24 only time that I saw him, and that's what I told you about and that's it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So whatever you would be prepared to do, that would

Page 2290

1 not include giving false testimony; is that correctly understood?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] False testimony? No, no.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto has a question for you.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: What does it mean to be christened or transferred

6 to Alija's state?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, christened means to have us

8 converted, to change our religion; that we'd no longer be Muslims, that

9 we'd be Serbs. And if we didn't want to do that, then they would

10 transfer us to that state. And I didn't say that in my statement. If he

11 had a state. That's what he said. So if had a state. So -- I mean, if

12 he doesn't have a state, and if I don't want to convert to Christianity,

13 then I'd be destroyed. And the suffering I experienced in camp. I

14 cannot describe that. You cannot believe that. Twenty-six months, it's

15 the command that ordered them to do all of that. We were stripped naked

16 in camp and --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You have told us about that.

18 I just wanted to know what it meant to be taken to Alija's state. Thank

19 you so much.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, any need to re-examine the witness?

21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honours, I do have a few questions.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you think you could finish that in the next

23 couple of minutes.

24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Couple meaning about three or four --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Five, six minutes.

Page 2291

1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I may need a little bit more time than that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Approximately how much?

3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would say probably closer to ten.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, unless there is any urgent reason why we

6 shouldn't do that, I would like Ms. Hochhauser to re-examine the witness

7 in the next ten minutes.

8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.

10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you.

11 Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

12 Q. Sir, at page 39 of today's transcript at line 20, Mr. Ivetic

13 said -- asked -- said to you you testified in two proceedings in state

14 court of Bosnia and Herzegovina wherein you never mentioned this

15 encounter with Mr. Mladic. Do you recall that question? My -- my

16 question to you is: Did anyone in the state courts or during that

17 proceeding ever ask you about an interaction with Mr. Mladic?

18 A. No, no one asked me.

19 Q. Similarly, you first informed the Office of the Prosecutor about

20 this interaction after testifying in the Karadzic case. To the best of

21 your recollection, were you specifically asked by anyone about Mr. Mladic

22 in -- when doing any of the other -- the previous statements that you

23 gave to the OTP?

24 A. Here in The Hague?

25 Q. So -- yes, in preparation for the prior statements that you gave

Page 2292

1 to the OTP, both the amalgamated statement that is in evidence now and

2 the statement that you gave in 1999, were you ever asked a specific

3 question about Mr. Mladic? Were you ever asked whether you had any

4 interaction with him or had anything to say about him?

5 A. When I testified here in the Karadzic case, and when the hearing

6 was over, then I said to a Prosecutor that I had seen Karadzic -- no, not

7 him, Mladic. And I wanted to describe it, and he said that it wasn't

8 necessary. So that was last time here.

9 As for Mladic, I talked about him when I just got out of prison,

10 and they took me to some military corps. Now I don't know where that

11 was. And I gave an extensive statement there about everything, and I

12 mentioned Mladic there, I think.

13 Q. sir, you've just told us about the circumstance after testifying

14 in Karadzic when you first raised -- brought to the Prosecutor's

15 attention the incident with Mr. Mladic. My question to you is prior --

16 before that conversation, where -- where you were asked if you had seen

17 Karadzic and you said, No, I never saw Karadzic, but I did see Mladic,

18 before that, were you ever asked in preparation for any of the OTP

19 statements that you gave here to the ICTY, were you asked about

20 Mr. Mladic -- were you asked a question about Mr. Mladic?

21 A. No one asked me.

22 Q. Okay. Now, you've told us -- you were asked a series of

23 questions about the -- about your statement at paragraphs 51 through 60,

24 about how you knew about the -- about people that were on the Rogatica

25 Crisis Staff.

Page 2293

1 So drawing your attention to that series of questions, if I can

2 point you --

3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could have, please, 164 -- Exhibit 164 up

4 on the screen.

5 Q. And if I could point you to the -- paragraph 55. I believe it

6 should be page 11 in the English.

7 Now, you told us when you were answering that series of questions

8 in regard to, and please forgive me if I mispronounce the name, but it's

9 Razdoljac - is it? - aka Djoko, you told us about him, that he had

10 appeared at Rasadnik and that was some of the basis for your knowledge.

11 Did you have the opportunity at other times to overhear Serb soldiers

12 talking about other members of the Crisis Staff and other people who were

13 involved in the camp?

14 A. Well, yes. All these persons you mentioned here, I heard about

15 that from several Serb soldiers. I can't remember now. And that's why I

16 said that they were in the top of that command, Razdoljac was there and

17 he came often to the prison, and he could actually ask for inmates to

18 come out even without Vinko. How many were needed to unload the

19 ammunition. I've said that.

20 Q. And in the 20-plus months that you were at Rasadnik, did you have

21 other opportunities to see any of these other people that are listed in

22 those paragraphs 52 through -- through 60, did you have other

23 opportunities to see them at Rasadnik and also to hear conversations

24 amongst them?

25 A. Yes, I did have the opportunity of seeing some of these people

Page 2294

1 have I have enumerated, but it was difficult for me to hear the

2 conversations that they held amongst themselves.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Just to clarify, does that mean that the persons you

4 commented upon being the members of the Crisis Staff, that they were

5 present in the place where you were detained, that is, in Rasadnik

6 prison? Did you see them there?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

8 JUDGE ORIE: All of them or some of them?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw all five of them, but they

10 weren't together on the same day. Sometimes there would be one of them

11 who was present. On other occasions it would be someone else and so on.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say five, and I think seven names are

13 mentioned. So you did see five out of the seven?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, seven. I saw all of them

15 that I said, five. However ...

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.

17 MS. HOCHHAUSER:

18 Q. Sir, if I could just ask you to look at those -- those

19 paragraphs. So it's beginning -- beginning from 52 to 60. And just look

20 at the names, review the names, 52 through 60. And can you -- can you

21 tell us, again, whether -- after having reviewed the names, if there were

22 any of those people that you did not see at the camp?

23 A. I saw Rajko Kusic, Rajko Vukovic, I saw Mile Ujic. We were taken

24 to a flat of Mile Ujic's and we cleaned it. He turned up, gave us some

25 food. He was an officer and had some sort of insignia on him and they

Page 2295

1 called him Captain. I can see one, two, three names here. Rajko,

2 Jadranko, And Mile. Can I have a look at the others?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Next page for the witness, please. I think he has a

4 hard copy of his statement, doesn't he?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Further, Radomir Furtula. He would

6 appear in the prison. Razdoljac, Djoko, yes. Carkic, Zoran, they said

7 he was a security officer, captain for security. That's what the Serbs

8 called him. And Stojan Perkovic, I saw him too. He was arrested and

9 sentenced to 12 years in prison. The sentence was delivered in the court

10 in Sarajevo. I know about Rajko Kusic for sure, and Radomir Furtula did

11 appear in the prison. He conducted all the military operations around

12 Rogatica and Gorazde. This was mentioned with Vinko, in a conversation

13 with Vinko. I didn't hear this from the Muslims.

14 MS. HOCHHAUSER:

15 Q. Sir, moving onto a different topic. The -- I'd like to talk

16 about the stipend that was mentioned from the Women Victims of War

17 Organisation. Now, that stipend is from the -- actually from the

18 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the government of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina uses the Women Victims of War Organisation to distribute the

20 money; is that correct? Are you aware of that?

21 A. I don't know. I receive that money. As to where these funds

22 come from, I have no idea. It's a non-governmental organisation, and we

23 receive this sum every month.

24 Q. Okay. I'd like to draw your attention now to the line of

25 questions that you were asked about -- about your interaction with -- and

Page 2296

1 again pardon my mispronunciation, with Hadzibulic's unit. Now --

2 JUDGE ORIE: May I also remind you that your ten minutes are

3 approximately over, so please wind up.

4 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Approximately over. Okay.

5 Q. Sir, you said at page 16, line 14, you were asked about automatic

6 infantry weapons, and you responded: "I only saw such weapons on them."

7 Can you tell us who "them" is?

8 A. Well, the 250 men who were to one side, and on the other side

9 there were men without weapons. So they were Muslims. That's where I

10 was lined up, and I saw those weapons on them. I didn't know them by

11 name, but they were Muslims.

12 Q. So that was approximately 250 of the 400 people that you

13 described gathering there; is that correct?

14 A. There were between 400 and 500 people. And that was that one

15 half of them. I didn't count them. I didn't know whether there were 200

16 or 300 of them, but it was half of all those people whom I could not

17 count.

18 Q. Just two more questions, sir. Can you tell us those -- when you

19 were there that day, the people that you saw there, did they appear

20 otherwise organised? Did they have uniforms or other provisions that you

21 saw?

22 A. No, they didn't have any kind of uniform. They were summoned

23 there on that day in order to organise themselves. There were no

24 uniforms. They were all in civilian clothing. And there were no

25 uniforms available of any kind in any case.

Page 2297

1 Q. And, sir, do you consider yourself to have been participating in

2 any kind of organised armed resistance at any point from April of 1992

3 until 14 August 1992 when you were detained?

4 A. No, not at all. I didn't participate in anything. We gathered,

5 one day we dug trenches, and there was this other day when we were doing

6 road work. We hadn't been issued any orders, we were bored, and so we

7 organised ourselves and spent two days working. And during that 20-day

8 period I was taken captive, and as for what subsequently happened, I

9 don't know.

10 Q. So it was a sum total of two days that you're -- you're talking

11 about, interacting with Hadzibulic?

12 A. Yes. I was in contact with Hadzibulic around the 20th of July

13 and only on that occasion.

14 Q. Okay.

15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, that concludes my re-direct.

16 Thank you for your patience.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Have the questions of the Prosecution triggered any

18 need for further questions?

19 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then --

21 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honour. I do have to check with

22 the client. He is trying to get my attention. I apologise.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 [Defence counsel confer]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- could Mr. Mladic speak at such a level of

Page 2298

1 speech that others cannot hear him.

2 MR. IVETIC: No -- no new questions raised by the re-direct,

3 Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

5 Mr. Hurko, this concludes your testimony in this Court. I would

6 like to thank you very much for coming and for answering all the

7 questions that were put to you either by the parties or by the Bench.

8 You're excused. I wish you a safe return home again. You may follow the

9 usher.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break.

13 For the next witness, no protective measures.

14 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then he can be called after we have resumed, and

16 that will be at 12.30.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

20 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour. There are a couple of brief

21 preliminary matters to address.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then before we -- yes. If you would please

23 address them. We'll wait for the witness to be brought in, and --

24 please, Mr. Traldi.

25 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2301

1 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

2 make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I

3 invite you to make that solemn declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 WITNESS: IVO ATLIJA

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examination by Mr. Traldi:

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Atlija. Please be seated.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Atlija, you'll first be examined by Mr. Traldi.

12 Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.

13 You may proceed, Mr. Traldi.

14 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Sir, can I ask you to please state your full name for the record.

16 A. My name is Ivo Atlija.

17 Q. And good morning, Mr. Atlija. Can you tell us where you were

18 born?

19 A. I was born on the 19th of May, 1963, in the village of Brisevo,

20 Prijedor municipality.

21 Q. And what is your ethnicity, sir?

22 A. I am a Croat by ethnicity.

23 Q. Mr. Atlija, do you remember providing a statement to the ICTY on

24 18 -- sorry, the 18th through the 20th of October, 2000?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 2302

1 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask the Court Officer to please display

2 65 ter 28367 on our screens.

3 Q. And, Mr. Atlija, now that the document is on the screen before

4 you, I'd ask you to view the first page; in particular, the signature in

5 the bottom right-hand corner of the English version, and indicate whether

6 you recognise that signature?

7 A. Yes, that's my signature.

8 MR. TRALDI: And can I ask that we go to page 22.

9 Q. And, again, I'll ask you whether you recognise the signature.

10 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, page 23, Your Honours.

11 Q. And, again, I'll ask you whether you recognise the signature on

12 that page.

13 A. Yes, that's my signature.

14 Q. And, Mr. Atlija, in your statement, discussing grave number 1,

15 including a group of about 20 Muslims in Stara Rijeka, the statement

16 reflects that you think the grave was exhumed but you are not sure. Have

17 you subsequently discovered what happened to the bodies of the people

18 buried in this grave?

19 A. Through the media, I subsequently discovered that no bodies were

20 found in that grave, but they were subsequently found in a grave called

21 Jakarina Kosa, as far as I can remember.

22 Q. And in this statement discussing grave number 9, your statement

23 reflects that the map attached at Annex B reflects the wrong location for

24 grave number 9. Did you review Annex B to your statement, the map of

25 grave-sites, in preparation for your testimony?

Page 2303

1 A. Yes, I did. And the grave is at the right location on the map

2 that I had a look at, and this means that the error has been corrected.

3 Q. And on page 17 of your statement where you discuss grave number

4 13, your statement reflects that you are not sure if Mirsad Svraka's, I

5 apologise for my mispronunciation, if that person's body has been

6 exhumed. Have you since learned if the body has been exhumed?

7 A. Later I discovered through the press that the body had been

8 exhumed.

9 Q. And now in annex A to your statement, 65 ter 28368, I just want

10 to clear up two inconsistencies between the English and B/C/S versions.

11 MR. TRALDI: First, if the Court Officer could pull up

12 paragraph 20 of 65 ter 28368 on the third page each of the English and

13 the B/C/S.

14 Q. Sir, is the right number 200 Muslims or 2.000 Muslims that were

15 killed in Redak?

16 A. The right number is about 200 Muslims. That's what I said, and

17 that's what it says in the Croatian version.

18 MR. TRALDI: And, second, if the Court Officer could pull up

19 paragraph 24 on the fourth page of both the B/C/S and the English.

20 Q. In the B/C/S of this paragraph, it says that, and again I'll

21 apologise for my pronunciation, Ivica Mlinar, Luka Mlinar, and Jerko

22 Ivandic, were killed by pickaxes, shovels, and fence posts. In the

23 English it say, Ivica Mlinar and Luka and Jerko Ivandic. Can you clarify

24 for us whether Luka's last name was Mlinar or Ivandic?

25 A. Luka's last name is Mlinar. Ivandic is a mistake. There was

Page 2304

1 only a Jerko Ivandic. So the last name was Mlinar. Ivica and Luka are

2 Mlinars.

3 Q. And, sir, have you had a chance to review your ICTY statement and

4 its associated annexes in preparation for your testimony?

5 A. Yes, I have had such a chance.

6 Q. And subject to the corrections we have just discussed, sir, if

7 the Chamber takes your statement together with the annexes, will it have

8 a correct picture of your evidence?

9 A. Yes, there's nothing I would change.

10 Q. And if I were today to ask you questions about the material

11 addressed therein, would you provide the same information, in substance?

12 A. Yes, I would provide the same information for the simple reason

13 that this information is truth and there is, therefore, no need to change

14 anything.

15 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders

16 65 ter 28367, pursuant to Rule 92 ter, as a public exhibit.

17 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

18 Madam Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28367 becomes Exhibit P168,

20 Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: P168 is admitted into evidence.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours I would also, at this time tender

24 the annexes to the statement as associated exhibits.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.

Page 2305

1 Madam Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28368 becomes Exhibit P169,

3 Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28369 becomes Exhibit P170,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted.

8 THE REGISTRAR: And document 28370 becomes Exhibit P171,

9 Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I believe there are two more annexes

12 with 65 ter numbers 18458 and 18459.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18458 becomes Exhibit P172,

14 Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

16 THE REGISTRAR: And document 18459 becomes Exhibit P173,

17 Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Also admitted into evidence.

19 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, we now have those hard copies of

20 the redacted version of what is now Exhibit P169.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I meanwhile was informed that the only

22 redaction is found on the second page. Is that true?

23 MR. TRALDI: There are substantial redactions on the second page,

24 Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Not on the other pages?

Page 2306

1 MR. TRALDI: As I recall, no, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the usher could assist.

3 You may proceed.

4 MR. TRALDI: Now that the requirements of Rule 92 ter have been

5 satisfied, I will briefly summarise Mr. Atlija's written evidence for the

6 record.

7 Ivo Atlija was born and raised in Prijedor municipality. In

8 April 1992, he left Prijedor town after being sent home from his job on

9 the orders of the SDS and returned to Brisevo, where his parents lived.

10 From Brisevo, Mr. Atlija saw Serb forces attack Muslim villages

11 in May of 1992. Hundreds of women and children came to Brisevo seeking

12 refuge. They told him that the Serb army was burning their houses,

13 killing men, and raping women. Mr. Atlija heard an ultimatum given to

14 the Muslim village of Hambarine on behalf of the Prijedor Crisis Staff to

15 surrender certain people or see the whole village burnt down. Then he

16 saw soldiers and tanks enter the village. During the attack on Kozarac,

17 he could see smoke rising and destroyed houses.

18 On 27 May 1992, Brisevo was shelled. The next day, the villagers

19 surrendered all their weapons. Check-points were set up around the

20 village and men were taken away to detention camps.

21 In the early morning of 24 July, Brisevo was attacked about

22 large-calibre weapons. There was non-stop shelling. Regular soldiers

23 and Chetniks burned down houses and looted them. All in all, 68 people

24 were killed.

25 Mr. Atlija was told that the 6th Krajina Brigade and the

Page 2307

1 5th Kozara Brigade were involved in the attack. The majority of the

2 soldiers left during the course of 25 July. Mr. Atlija and other young

3 men saw burned down houses and several buildings which had been damaged,

4 including the Catholic church, and they helped bury the dead, starting

5 with Mr. Atlija's own father.

6 Q. Mr. Atlija, now that I have summarised your written evidence, I'm

7 going to ask several questions to clarify or expand upon that evidence.

8 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that the Court Officer call up 65 ter

9 13331 at this time.

10 Q. Sir, do you recognise the area on this map?

11 A. Yes. You can see the town of Prijedor in the map, and you can

12 see the fish pound to the right in blue. And then there's a road towards

13 Banja Luka to -- to the right. And that would be south-east, or to the

14 east. And to the left, there is the read to Bosanski Novi. On the other

15 side, to the south, there is the road for Ljubija. And above, if you

16 follow this road from Prijedor to Ljubija, you pass through the village

17 of Hambarine that has already been mentioned, and then you go a little

18 further down in the direction of -- okay.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. And did you have the chance to review this map

20 in preparation for your testimony?

21 A. Yes, I have seen this map.

22 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, does it fairly and accurately

23 depict the Prijedor municipality?

24 A. Yes. I'm quite convinced that the map is a correct one.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, is that a matter there's any dispute

Page 2308

1 about it, or have you agreed with the -- is it challenged by the Defence?

2 MR. TRALDI: I'm sorry, which matter exactly, Your Honour?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Whether this map accurately reflects the

4 geographical situation. I mean --

5 MR. TRALDI: We have not spoken to the Defence in that regard,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it seems that unless there's any reason to

8 believe that these kind of maps are inaccurate, that you could either

9 agree with the Defence or leave it to cross-examination if there is any

10 challenge to that, especially since you asked for additional time - which

11 was not granted, by the way, yet, and we said we would see how

12 examination-in-chief develops. And if you then start asking questions

13 about whether the map is accurate or not, that, of course, might not be

14 the best use of your time.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour. At this point I would request

17 that 65 ter 13331 be admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.

18 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

19 Madam Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 13331 becomes Exhibit P174,

21 Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And - let me just have a look - is this map also in

23 the binder you tendered, Mr. Traldi? I just need to have a look at it.

24 Because -- let's have a look.

25 MR. TRALDI: On a quick review, Your Honour, I don't believe it

Page 2309

1 is.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there's a similar map. But, Madam Registrar,

3 the number would be ...

4 THE REGISTRAR: It's already assigned P174.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for that. P174 is admitted into

6 evidence.

7 MR. TRALDI:

8 Q. And, Mr. Atlija, after you left Prijedor you went to Brisevo.

9 What was the atmosphere there like when you arrived?

10 A. At that time there was calm in Brisevo and the situation was

11 relatively normal.

12 Q. And did that atmosphere change?

13 A. Yes, unfortunately, in time it did change. The shooting was

14 approaching. As time went by, Muslims came from the surrounding villages

15 and told stories, and as I said the shooting approached both from

16 Prijedor and from Sanski Most so that we were increasingly encircled.

17 The situation was changing. The people were withdrawing, becoming

18 withdrawn and afraid. And fear could be sensed. It was almost palpable.

19 Because people felt helpless. They saw what was happening around them,

20 and they were probably fearful that that would happen to us too, but

21 nobody wanted to say it out loud.

22 So the situation was becoming more and more hopeless and more and

23 more bad for us. In addition, after a couple of weeks, the power supply

24 was cut off, so we were unable anymore to watch television. The food in

25 the refrigerators and freezers had gone bad. So people were becoming --

Page 2310

1 realising that it was turning for the worse.

2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I would request that the Court Officer

3 call 65 ter 18438 to our screens.

4 Q. Sir, do you recognise the building in this picture?

5 A. This is the Brisevo Catholic church right before the war.

6 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd request that 65 ter 18438 be

7 admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18438 becomes Exhibit P175,

10 Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

12 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask now that the Court Officer call up and

13 play the video-clip bearing 65 ter number 22594A. I apologise, we'll be

14 playing that.

15 [Video-clip played]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see now on the screen the

17 interior of that same church that we had seen earlier. This is after the

18 attack in 1992.

19 [Video-clip played]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, the same church but from a

21 different angle.

22 MR. TRALDI:

23 Q. And, sir, at the end we saw the church tower. Do you know

24 anything about what happened to the tower?

25 A. The church was destroyed and set on fire inside. And as for the

Page 2311

1 tower, I believe it was demolished by, or, rather, destroyed by a

2 hand-held launcher, a Zolja or some kind of anti-tank weapon. So the top

3 of the tower was destroyed by this piece of weaponry, and -- as well as

4 the bell tower.

5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd request that 65 ter 22594A be

6 admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Video 22594A becomes Exhibit P176, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

10 MR. TRALDI:

11 Q. Mr. Atlija, at paragraph 108 of Exhibit P168, your ICTY

12 statement, in page 21 of the English and the B/C/S, you mention that all

13 the Catholic churches and the mosque in Ljubija commune were destroyed.

14 Can you tell us when that happened?

15 A. I'd just like to say that officially Ljubija was not a

16 municipality at the time. The church and most of the other religious

17 buildings were destroyed at that time during the attack. So the Brisevo

18 church was destroyed in a direct attack on Brisevo. And as for the other

19 religious buildings, they were destroyed within the next couple of weeks.

20 Not all on one day.

21 Q. And, sir, in your written evidence, you discuss victims named

22 Mato Buzuk, Milan Buzuk, and others with the same last name. Did you

23 ever learned what happened to someone named Morge Buzuk?

24 A. Well, I would also like to point out that Morge is not a name,

25 it's actually a nickname. His last name was Buzuk and he worked at the

Page 2312

1 same company where I worked and he was killed during the attack on

2 Brisevo.

3 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I will not go into further detail

4 about the attack in reliance on adjudicated facts 919 through 924. I

5 would, however, ask that the document marked 65 ter 26499A be called to

6 our screens and that the Court Officer turn to page 3 of the English and

7 4 of the B/C/S original.

8 And while that's coming up, Your Honours, this is one of the

9 documents that I mentioned at the beginning. It's an excerpt from the

10 list of persons from the Banja Luka bishopric killed during 1992 which

11 was provided to OTP directly by the bishopric.

12 Your Honour, as I -- apparently there is an issue with calling

13 this exhibit up, I suggest that I move to the next area while it's

14 called. Ah, now it's on the screen.

15 Q. And, sir, do you recognise this document?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. And what is it?

18 A. This is a list of people who were killed in the Brisevo area.

19 But, for instance, the Matanovic family, they officially belonged to

20 Stara Rijeka village, which was a border-line area between Brisevo and

21 Stara Rijeka. Well, what's important to say is that this is a list of

22 people who were killed at that time.

23 Q. And did you have a chance to review this list during preparation

24 for your testimony?

25 A. Yes. I reviewed it, and I think that I mentioned a number of

Page 2313

1 names where I wasn't certain about the fate of those people. I didn't

2 know them too well.

3 Q. And just to go over some of those brief names that you were not

4 certain of sir. Looking at page 4 of the B/C/S, I understand you

5 believed that the people listed at names 4 and 30 may have died elsewhere

6 and not in Brisevo.

7 A. Yes, that's what I said.

8 Q. And on page 5 of the B/C/S, I understand you do not know the

9 people listed at names 55 and 66; is that correct?

10 A. 55 Ante Tokmacic [phoen], that's correct. I don't know the man.

11 I can't recall him. As well as the name under 66, Tomislav Buleta. I'm

12 not sure and I don't know what happened to that man. I don't know who

13 that was.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The right name was not on the screen when you put

15 the question to the witness. You should wait for the appearance of the

16 correct page.

17 MR. TRALDI: I apologise, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Especially if you only refer to numbers. There

19 are so many numbers, starting from number 1 again.

20 MR. TRALDI:

21 Q. With regard to the remaining names, sir, you lived in Brisevo

22 during the attack and participated in many of the burials of people who

23 died during that attack. To the best of your knowledge, subject to the

24 clarifications above, when did the remaining people listed here die?

25 A. Could you please clarify? I'm not sure I understood your

Page 2314

1 question. Maybe I was a bit distracted. The people who were killed

2 whose names appear on this list, they were all killed on the same day

3 during the attack on Brisevo.

4 Now, could you please repeat the second part of your question?

5 Q. That -- that answers my question, actually, sir.

6 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 26499A as a

7 public exhibit. And, for the record, I would note that it's the portion

8 beginning at the title "Stara Rijeka" an ending just above the title

9 "Surkovac" that we are suggesting that the witness can authenticate.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that you referred to the names under

11 Stara Rijeka. But when it was introduced, it was people being killed in

12 Brisevo? Is that -- could we ask the witness whether that's the same, or

13 is it where they were exhumed?

14 Could you tell us?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can clarify this.

16 The title of the document says "Stara Rijeka," but I've just

17 heard that this was obtained from the Banja Luka bishopric. Now, the

18 village Presevo belonged to the bishopric of Stara Rijeka; however, most

19 of these people were actually from Presevo and not from Stara Rijeka.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that clarifies the matter.

21 Mr. Traldi, you will only rely on the names mentioned under

22 Stara Rijeka.

23 MR. TRALDI: That's right, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

25 If not, Madam Registrar.

Page 2315

1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 26499A becomes Exhibit P177,

2 Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P177 is admitted into evidence.

4 MR. TRALDI:

5 Q. Mr. Atlija, in your statements, you mention women who were raped.

6 Could you explain to the Trial Chamber why you didn't want to give their

7 names in your statement?

8 A. Yes, gladly. I did not want to give their names because those

9 women were born, grew up, and lived in a very conservative Catholic

10 environment, and any publication of their names would be additional

11 suffering to them and they had suffered enough already. And, to the best

12 of my abilities, I will never mention any of those names. If any of

13 those women want to talk about it themselves, I don't object to that, but

14 I will not be the one to disclose their names.

15 Q. And did you see any of those women who had been raped

16 subsequently?

17 A. I saw them and I talked with them.

18 Q. And what condition were they in at the time?

19 A. Terrible condition. Suffice it to say that we had very much

20 difficulty preventing some of them from committing suicide.

21 Q. And, Mr. Atlija, in your statements, for instance P168,

22 paragraphs 105 to 107, you mention you were -- repeatedly spoke with

23 Vojo Kupresanin about crimes that you said were committed by Serb forces?

24 About how many times did you speak with Kupresanin in total?

25 A. I met with Vojo Kupresanin on three occasions, but we talked on

Page 2316

1 the phone on many more occasions. I can't tell you exactly how many.

2 Q. And in all those conversations, sir, did Kupresanin suggest, ever

3 suggest, the possibility that anyone would be punished for the crimes you

4 described to him?

5 A. No, he never said a word about any of that. The only thing he

6 did say was that he would try to intercede with General Talic so such

7 things would stop. And he gave me access to the telephone service to

8 Ljubija.

9 Q. And did Kupresanin ever arrange a meeting for you with any other

10 Serb leader?

11 A. Kupresanin organised a meeting with the then-mayor of the Serbian

12 Prijedor municipality, Mr. Stakic.

13 Q. Can you describe that meeting for us?

14 A. There were three of us in the delegation. The meeting was

15 relatively short. There was another man in Mr. Stakic's office together

16 with Mr. Stakic. We later learned that his name was Sovanovic. I don't

17 know exactly what his position was. I believe he was his deputy. They

18 offered that they move us to intact houses that remained in the Muslim

19 village of Biscani, but after a short conversation we declined that

20 offer.

21 Q. And did Stakic or any other Serb leader you spoke with ever

22 suggest the possibility that anyone would be punished for the crimes you

23 were aware of?

24 A. No. To this day, not one.

25 Q. When you spoke with Kupresanin and Stakic and other Serb leaders,

Page 2317

1 what did you ask of them?

2 A. The only thing that I asked of them was to allow us to move out

3 of that region without any impediments, and I will quote what I said then

4 to Mr. Kupresanin in the presence of Mr. Rasula, who was the police

5 commander in the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most. There was also

6 Bishop Komarica and some other people present. I said this to him:

7 "Sir, you have territory, you've gained territory, so just allow

8 people to move out from there. If you absolutely need to have Brisevo

9 and those couple of hills there, you, the Serbian military, and the

10 Serbian people, you can have them, but just let us go in peace."

11 However, he did not do that.

12 Q. And in your meetings with Serb leaders and on the basis of those

13 meetings, did you develop an impression why they were reluctant to let

14 you leave?

15 A. Well, I can illustrate this. One of their excuses was, Listen,

16 we have been accused of ethnic cleansing, and if we now let you go that

17 will be an additional argument to accuse us of the same thing. And what

18 I replied to that was, Well, what? And if you kill us all here, that

19 wouldn't be ethnic cleansing? So I assumed they wanted to keep us there

20 for some negotiations as hostages. Because Brisevo had no strategic

21 significance in military terms or political or economic terms. And those

22 couple of hills there, they were completely irrelevant. So it's a real

23 shame that so many people died for nothing.

24 Q. And, Mr. Atlija, in Exhibit P168 you talk about how before the

25 war, Brisevo was an almost completely Croatian village by ethnicity and

Page 2318

1 it was destroyed. Not a single Croatian house left. Have any of the

2 Croats who lived there subsequently returned?

3 A. No one returned to live there permanently.

4 Q. And have any of the homes been rebuilt?

5 A. Well, it would be more correct to say that three or four houses

6 were built.

7 Q. And if no one has returned, sir, to live there, when are the

8 houses used?

9 A. The only purpose of those houses is for us to meet there once a

10 year to commemorate those unfortunate events. That is when a couple of

11 hundred of people would gather there and we would use those homes so that

12 we wouldn't have to stay out in the open, so that we would have a roof

13 above our heads.

14 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that concludes my examination.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

16 We had a few longer sessions this morning, therefore I think we

17 should take a break now and then resume at 20 minutes to 2.00 for the

18 remaining 25 minutes.

19 Mr. Atlija, could you follow the usher. We take a break of 20

20 minutes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume in 20 minutes from now.

24 --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

Page 2327

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

3 Q. Mr. Atlija, I would now like to take a look at paragraph 12 of

4 your statement, where you talk about propaganda. Let us wait for it to

5 come up on the screens. You don't have to read it. Can we agree that at

6 this time all three sides engaged in propaganda?

7 A. I'm referring to propaganda that we had access to in Prijedor,

8 that we were exposed to in Prijedor. I believe what you're saying, that

9 all three sides, or all sides, were engaged in propaganda, but what I'm

10 referring to here is the propaganda that we were exposed to in Prijedor

11 municipality, and the propaganda that indoctrinated the citizens of

12 Prijedor. And I'm talking about Prijedor because that is an area that I

13 know things about.

14 Q. Thank you. Isn't it correct that TV Zagreb could be watched, the

15 programmes broadcast by TV Zagreb could be seen in Prijedor municipality

16 because there were repeaters posted there?

17 A. That's correct. It is was possible to follow some programmes on

18 Zagreb TV.

19 Q. Was it possible or did you have reception of the broadcasts from

20 TV Sarajevo because there was a repeater at Vlasic, Mount Vlasic?

21 A. Well, in Brisevo, as far as the time when I was there, it was not

22 possible anymore to receive broadcasts from Sarajevo TV. Whether someone

23 switched off the repeater at Mount Vlasic or not, I don't know, but we

24 couldn't watch those programmes.

25 Q. Thank you. Before TV Sarajevo was switched off at Mrakovica, did

Page 2328

1 you notice that TV Sarajevo stopped broadcasting programmes from Belgrade

2 television?

3 A. Well, I know that the news at 7.30 or 8.00 p.m., the prime-time

4 news, were broadcasts from different television centres, but that, too,

5 stopped, but I couldn't tell you exactly at what time. I couldn't give

6 you the date.

7 Q. Thank you. It is sufficient to tell us what you know about.

8 Thank you. You say then that the media were openly calling for all Serbs

9 to take revenge and to pay back the old debts from the Second World War,

10 newspapers started referring to Muslims and Croats as fundamentalists and

11 Ustashas?

12 A. Yes, that's true.

13 Q. Did you notice that that had an effect on the local Serbs?

14 A. Well, unfortunately, yes, it did have an impact.

15 Q. Did you observe that, too, when armed Serbs came to your village

16 of Brisevo, when they attacked it?

17 A. On that day, on the day of the attack itself, I was busy

18 elsewhere, but immediately following this attack from conversations with

19 others and when we had occasion to hear things they were talking about, I

20 could say yes, it did have an impact on them, too.

21 Q. You also say that they kept repeating that Serbs, Orthodox Serbs,

22 were threatened by fundamentalists and Ustashas who wanted to exterminate

23 Serbs. Was it your impression that the Serbs believed this, that they

24 really believed this?

25 A. Well, that's the sorry part. And to this day I really regret

Page 2329

1 that they were actually certain that what they were thinking was true.

2 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to refer you to paragraph 14 of your

3 statement. In paragraph 14 you say the following:

4 "The following couple of months I remained in Brisevo because it

5 was impossible to go to Prijedor without a special permit that was issued

6 by the Serb authorities in Ljubija."

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Is it also correct that Serb civilians, too, had to obtain these

9 permits to be allowed to move in Prijedor municipality? I'm talking

10 about civilians.

11 A. In the entire area of Prijedor municipality, I couldn't say with

12 certainty. But I do know that people from Ljubija, people of Serb

13 ethnicity from Ljubija, didn't have any difficulty travelling to Prijedor

14 or moving about in Prijedor, or even travelling in their own vehicle,

15 which, for us, was unthinkable.

16 Q. Did you, at the time, have occasion to move around, together with

17 some Serb civilians at that time?

18 A. No, not together with a Serb civilian.

19 Q. In other words, you don't know that they, too - in other words,

20 the Serb civilians - had to have a permit in order to move around freely

21 in Prijedor municipality?

22 A. Now whether they had any permits or any kind of paper in their

23 pockets, I really don't know anything about that, and I couldn't tell.

24 Q. Thank you. Who issued these permits, these passes, that allowed

25 free movement; do you know?

Page 2330

1 A. As far as I know, these permits were issued at the Serb so-called

2 command. I don't know exactly the official name, but I know that it was

3 run by the Taranjac brothers.

4 Q. Could that have been a Crisis Staff in Ljubija?

5 A. It is possible that this body was called a Crisis Staff, but in

6 everyday speech we just referred to it as the command.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, on page 16082 in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case,

8 when you testified, you said that these permits were issued by the

9 Serbian Crisis Staff in Ljubija. Does this help refresh your memory?

10 A. Yes, it is possible that that was called a Crisis Staff, but you

11 will allow that after all these years, I may forget a detail or two -- I

12 may have forgotten a detail or two.

13 Q. Do you know who introduced the curfew in Prijedor municipality or

14 in Ljubija?

15 A. Who and when the curfew was imposed in the entire Prijedor area,

16 I don't know because I was probably already in Brisevo, and we were not

17 very familiar with all the details in Prijedor as were the people who

18 lived there, who lived in Prijedor.

19 Q. Now something of lesser importance, but you did mention it your

20 statement in paragraph 15, and I know this is not of lesser significance

21 to you, and my apologies, but you say in paragraph 15 that sometime in

22 May of 1992, a Serb, by the name of Milan Mutic broke into my apartment

23 and took up residence there and he still lives there. Of course, you

24 gave this statement many years ago, so let me ask you whether in the

25 meantime you were able to recover your property?

Page 2331

1 A. It is correct, what you've said is correct. However, this man no

2 longer lives in my apartment. And about four or five years ago - I'm not

3 absolutely certain - through various international organisations and the

4 current authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina, we managed to recover this

5 property and to sell it, not to this man, not to Mutic, and not at the

6 commercial, the ongoing market prices, but we did manage to sell it.

7 Q. Thank you. Now paragraphs 16 and 17 you say:

8 "In early May 1992, several hundred Muslim women and children

9 from those villages took shelter in Brisevo. They stayed in our village

10 five or six days. Some of them later returned to their own village and

11 others tried to get to Sanski Most."

12 A. Yes, that's correct. Most of them were from Hambarine, and some

13 left for Stari Majdan, Sanski Most, and others decided after a few days

14 to return to Mataruska hills, as they referred to them. These are the

15 hills where Muslim villages were.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock. We have to

17 adjourn for the day.

18 I first would like to instruct you, Mr. Atlija, that you should

19 not speak with anyone or communicate in any other way with whomever about

20 your testimony, whether that is the testimony you gave today or whether

21 testimony still to be given tomorrow. Is that clear to you?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is clear. Thank you, I

23 understand you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at

25 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom. And you now may follow the

Page 2332

1 usher.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,

5 Thursday, the 6th of September, 9.30 a.m. in this same courtroom, I.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of

8 September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.