1 Wednesday, 26 September 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused not present]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 I observe and the Chamber was informed that Mr. Mladic did not
11 want to enter the courtroom. Any explanation, Mr. Lukic? Or
12 Mr. Stojanovic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
14 We have agreed -- just before the hearing, we have been informed
15 by Mr. Mladic that, in view of the fact that the witness will be heard
16 via videolink today, he believes that, in this way, his rights to
17 directly hear the witness would be violated and he cannot and does not
18 wish to take part in working with this witness in this way. He insisted
19 that we inform you about that.
20 We conveyed to him that examination via videolink is not an
21 unusual situation, but it is exceptional and possible under certain
22 circumstances. We indicated to him the possibility of the hearing being
23 held without his presence. He said that we should convey to you that he
24 continues to insist that witnesses be heard directly in the courtroom in
25 his presence, and therefore he does not wish to enter the courtroom
2 Your Honours, it was my duty to convey that to you here today.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That is clear, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 I put on the record that the Chamber has decided on a motion,
6 which was filed on the 14th of August, 2012, requesting that the present
7 witness be permitted to testify via video-conference link. The Defence
8 has responded to this motion, and although they had some questions about
9 the medical documentation, the Defence did not oppose the request by the
11 The Chamber has decided on the matter in its decision of the 7th
12 of September, 2012. No request for leave to -- to grant leave for an
13 appeal was filed. Therefore, there is a final decision on this matter by
14 the Chamber, and the Chamber cannot understand the position of Mr. Mladic
15 in any other way than that he waives his right to be present at this
16 moment during his trial. If this observation would not be accepted by
17 the Defence, then we would like to know why it is not accepted by the
18 Defence. But as matters stands now, the Chamber intends to proceed in
19 the absence of Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic having waived his right to be
21 Any further comments?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I
23 would just like to ask for a short break so that I can convey this to
24 Mr. Mladic so that we can receive further instructions. We shall then
25 return to the courtroom.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I make the following submission.
3 Mr. Stojanovic has said that he informed Mr. Mladic of the
4 possibility we could proceed. Could I ask that Mr. Stojanovic be
5 directed to inform Mr. Mladic that his failure -- that he has the right
6 to be present at his trial under Article 21, and his failure to come out
7 would be deemed a voluntary waiver of that right so he fully appreciates
8 the significance of his failure to come to court.
9 Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although I understood that Mr. Stojanovic had
11 informed Mr. Mladic about this before we entered court, I will just
12 consult with my colleagues.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may inform the -- Mr. Mladic as
15 suggested by Mr. Groome, although we thought that it would have been done
16 already, but you can do it again. If Mr. Mladic wants to enter the
17 courtroom, he should do that without any further noise. Just come into
18 the courtroom, sit down, and behave. That's what we expect him to do.
19 And that's also the reason why we are willing - exceptionally - to wait
20 with the examination of the witness until Mr. Mladic comes in.
21 If Mr. Mladic doesn't wish to enter the courtroom, please tell us
22 so that we can start.
23 We take a break of two minutes.
24 --- Break taken at 9.40 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 9.45 a.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, we said two minutes. If you have
2 problems in your communication with your client, fine, but then one
3 counsel should stay in court and the other one can deal with it out of
4 court. We said two minutes, and we meant it. Anything to report?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in accordance with
6 what we said, we did speak to Mr. Mladic, and he stood by what he said,
7 that he did not wish to enter the courtroom today while this witness is
8 being examined. He said that that can be considered as his waiver to
9 attend the examination of this witness, and he will appear in the
10 courtroom when we continue examining the witness who was here yesterday.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least that's the moment where he wishes to
12 attend again, I do understand.
13 Let's first now proceed with the videolink. Is our
14 representative in Sarajevo, I think it is, is she able to see us and to
15 hear us?
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour. I can see and
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then is the Prosecution ready to examine
19 the witness?
20 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. May I take this opportunity to
21 introduce to the Chamber to a member of the team who has not appeared
22 before, Ms. Abeer Hasan.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now protective measures are in place - face
24 distortion, voice distortion, pseudonym - but the testimony in itself
25 would be public.
1 Ms. Hasan, that's the position at this moment.
2 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. That's
3 correct, that is.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the witness be escorted into the
5 room. And are all the protective measures effective at this moment?
6 Ms. Hellman, at the other side, can you confirm that every
7 preparation for the protective measures has been made?
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour, I would like to ask
9 my colleague from the courtroom to verify protective measures.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could the same be done at this side of the
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
20 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
17 We'll take a break of ten minutes.
18 --- Break taken at 9.53 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.00 a.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We resume.
21 Can it be confirmed that all protective measures, that is, voice
22 distortion, face distortion, are in place, and then, of course, we have
23 the use of pseudonyms. Can this be confirmed? Either from the Registry
24 in The Hague or from the other side of the videolink.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, all the protective measures are in
1 place. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Then, Madam Registrar, at the other side of the videolink, could
4 the witness be escorted in the videolink room.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, witness is present
7 in the courtroom.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 Witness RM145, can you see me and can you hear me in a language
10 you understand?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
13 make a solemn declaration, the text of which will now be handed out to
14 you. May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: RM145
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 [Witness testified via videolink]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness RM145. Please be seated.
21 Witness RM145, your testimony will be given under protective
22 measures. No one in the public will see your face. No one in the public
23 will hear your own voice. And we'll not address you by your own name,
24 but we'll call you "Witness RM145."
25 Now if you're asked any question, and if you fear that by
1 answering that question in accordance with the truth you might reveal
2 your identity, please do not hesitate to ask me that we go into private
4 Is that clear?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then you'll now be examined first by Ms. Hasan.
7 Ms. Hasan is counsel for the Prosecution. Carefully listen to her
9 Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.
10 Examination by Ms. Hasan:
11 Q. Good morning, witness.
12 A. Good morning.
13 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, just for the record we are relying on
14 certain adjudicated facts in relation to this witness and have redacted
15 portions of his statement accordingly. I won't mention the specific
16 adjudicated facts as -- out of an abundance of caution and for the
17 witness's protection, unless you wish me to do so and we can enter into
18 private session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we've seen the numbers do appear in the
20 confidential exhibits, which I take it you'll send us soon a statement of
21 the witness.
22 MS. HASAN: Correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
24 MS. HASAN: May we have 65 ter 28423 displayed on the screens but
25 not broadcast.
1 Q. Witness, I trust that you see something in a hard copy or on the
2 screen before you? And if I may ask you, without reading anything out
3 loud, to please confirm whether it is your name and your date of birth
4 that is recorded on this paper under RM145?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I'd offer 65 ter 28423 into evidence
7 under seal.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 28423 shall be assigned P254,
10 under seal. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P254 is admitted under seal.
12 MS. HASAN: May we now have the first page of 65 ter 28422
13 displayed on our screens. And, again, not broadcast for the public.
14 Q. Witness, do you recall having met with the Office of the
15 Prosecutor on the 14th of February in 2011 when an amalgamated statement
16 that comprised your prior statements and your prior testimony, as well as
17 additional information, was read to you in your language. Do you recall
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Please take a look at this first page. Do you see your name on
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you recognise the signature that is on the bottom right-hand
24 side of the English version of this document?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And can you tell me whose signature that is?
2 A. It is my signature.
3 Q. Have you recently --
4 MS. HASAN: If we can actually now turn to page 16 in e-court.
5 Q. And this is the last page of the document. Do you recognise the
6 signature on this page?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that your --
9 A. It is my signature.
10 Q. Thank you. Have you recently had the opportunity to read this
11 amalgamated statement of your evidence from 14th February 2011 in your
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Yesterday we spoke and you informed me that there were three
15 changes you wished to make to your statement, and I will take you through
16 the changes that you spoke to me about. The first one was to
17 paragraph 16 of the B/C/S version, and you wished to replace the word --
18 the B/C/S word for the English word "nephew" to "tetic" as opposed to
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you told me that this more accurately reflected your
22 relationship to the named individual in that paragraph; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. In addition to that there were two changes you wished to make to
25 paragraph 51 of your statement. The first was that the bus that you were
1 on that stopped in Sokolina had the driver, Zuti, plus two guards on it
2 and not three guards, as the statement currently provides. Is that a
3 change you wish to make?
4 A. Yes, yes. Yes.
5 Q. Finally, in relation to that same paragraph, you wanted to
6 correct the statement that there were 50 to 55 of you crammed onto the
7 bus. And you wished to correct that --
8 A. Yes. 55 would be the correct number.
9 Q. Thank you. Are there any other changes or corrections that you
10 wish to make to the statement?
11 A. No. The rest is fine.
12 Q. Taking into account these changes, these corrections that we have
13 just made, if you were asked the same questions, would you provide in
14 substance the same answers of the evidence contained in your statement?
15 A. Yes.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 MS. HASAN:
18 Q. And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm
19 the accuracy and truthfulness of this statement, as corrected?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I'd offer into evidence the witness's
22 amalgamated statement of 14th February 2011, which is 65 ter 28422, under
24 JUDGE ORIE: Since I see that Mr. Stojanovic has no objections,
25 Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
1 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 28422 shall be assigned
2 Exhibit P255.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P255 is admitted under seal.
4 Ms. Hasan, may I ask you one -- seek clarification of one small
6 If you would look together with me at page 9, the question
7 starting at line 14, second line where you said "that comprised your
8 prior statements and ..." and there followed two words. I'm trying to
9 reconcile that with ...
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think I -- I understand already the matter that
12 was on my mind due to the help of my colleague, so it is a matter of
13 timing of taking the statement in 2011, which is a while ago, and the
14 present situation. Therefore, there's no need for further clarification.
15 Please proceed.
16 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, with your leave I'll now read a
17 summary of the witness's evidence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
19 MS. HASAN: In 1992, RM145 resided in the Novi Grad municipality.
20 In late May, the witness's village was attacked. The attack was led by
21 Jovan Tintor, Nikola Stanisic, and others. Approximately 30 men,
22 including RM145, attempted to escape, and after being ambushed,
23 surrendered. The Serb forces separated RM145 and 13 others from the rest
24 of the group. Jovan Tintor ordered that they be taken to the barracks at
25 Bojnik. On the way, the Serb forces beat, abused, and threatened to kill
1 the Muslim men. Upon their arrival at Bojnik, RM145 saw other prisoners
2 there who had been captured from other villages in the area. The
3 detainees, including RM145, were severely beaten.
4 The Muslim men were then taken to the army fuel depot in
5 Rajlovac. RM145, together with 85 to 90 other Muslim prisoners, were
6 detained in an empty fuel cistern, or reservoir. Mile Stojanovic
7 introduced him as the commander of the camp. RM145's evidence addresses
8 scheduled incident B 10.1. After nine or ten days of his detention in
9 these -- in this fuel cistern which involved repeated beatings and
10 interrogations, RM145 saw Zuti, the driver of Jovan Tintor, and four
11 armed men take out ten prisoners who were told they were going to be
12 exchanged but never returned to the cistern. The next day Zuti returned
13 and called out the name of an additional 15 or 16 men. These men were
14 taken out of the cistern and were also never seen again.
15 Finally, the witness's evidence addresses scheduled incident B
16 10.2. He describes how on the 14th of 1992, 55 of the prisoners detained
17 in the fuel cistern were put on a bus and told they were being taken to
18 be exchanged in Kobilja Glava. They were escorted by eight men in
19 camouflage uniforms, and two vehicle -- four vehicles; two at the front
20 of the bus and two at the rear.
21 Instead of going to Kobilja Glava, the bus drove in the direction
22 of Semizovac and stopped in a place named Sokolina. The driver and
23 guards got off the bus and moments later the bus was fired at. Those who
24 attempted to escape the bus were shot. Forty seven of the Muslim men on
25 the bus were killed. RM145 sustained an injury to his left arm and is
1 one of the few survivors of this massacre.
2 That concludes the summary.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan. Please proceed.
4 MS. HASAN: May we have 65 ter 05391 displayed on the screens.
5 This is a photograph.
6 Q. And I'd ask you, Witness, if you could tell us what this
7 photograph depicts?
11 Q. Which of these two cisterns, the one on the right before you, or
12 the left, were you detained in?
13 A. I was detained in the left smaller tank, which used to contain
14 petrol. The bigger one contained some 130 men. I don't know why they
15 were in the bigger tank. Later on, they were exchanged at the same time
16 they put us on the buses to be massacred.
17 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I'd seek the admission of this
18 photograph, 65 ter 03591.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I observe that earlier, page 14, line 5, that
20 the 65 ter number, for whatever reason, is not correct. But 03591, the
21 photograph we just looked at, will receive, Mr. Registrar, number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 03591 shall be assigned
23 Exhibit P256. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P256 is admitted into evidence.
25 MS. HASAN:
1 Q. Witness, how long were you held captive in this fuel cistern?
2 A. We were there for a fortnight. Or, rather, 13 days. Because the
3 day before the massacre, they had taken us in cooler trucks. They drove
4 us all around Eastern Bosnia, Sokolac, Koran, Rogatica, and then they
5 returned us to Pale. Most probably they did that in order to remove us
6 from that site when the other detainees and women and children were being
7 exchanged on the 13th. On that day, in the evening, they brought us
8 back. So I would say that I was there -- that I was detained there for
9 13 days, and then on day 14 we were taken to be massacred.
10 Q. At paragraphs 41 and 44 of your amalgamated statement, you give
11 evidence about a man nicknamed Zuti who came to the fuel cistern and
12 called the names of a number of men who you said you heard were to be
13 exchanged. These men were taken away. Could you clarify for us on how
14 many occasions during your detention did this take place?
15 A. Twice. Zuti came twice. As far as I can remember, on the 9th or
16 the 10th of June, 1992, he came and he took away ten men including
17 Brailovic and some others whose names I can't remember. Allegedly, they
18 were being taken to Ilidza to be exchanged. However, I never saw those
19 men again after the war. Some were found in the Vlahovo cemetery in
20 Blazuj. The second time he came, he took away 15 or 16 men from Bioce in
21 the direction of Ilijas, and those men were never seen again either.
22 MS. HASAN: May we now have a video-clip played, and it bears 65
23 ter number 22388E.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MS. HASAN:
1 Q. Witness, did you -- do you recognise what was on this clip?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Please tell us what you saw.
4 A. That was a bus of the transport company on to which we were
5 loaded from the Rajlovac camp. We had two vehicles escorting us. There
6 were two guards in each of them and Zuti was the driver, and they brought
7 us to the place where you can see the buses, the place is Sokolina. They
8 carried out an all-out attack from all the infantry weapons that they
9 had. They used those against the detainees.
10 Q. In your statement, amalgamated statement, at paragraph 60, you
11 state that a photographer by the name of Ibrahim filmed the entire
12 massacre. Could you clarify whether the video we just saw is the video
13 that you were referring to in your statement?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I'd now seek the admission of 65 ter
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to have it replayed and have
19 certain portions, if need be, to be stopped so that we have a still.
20 Judge Moloto will indicate where he would like to have the still.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: At the stage where we can see the bus closest.
22 MS. HASAN: Certainly.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you so much.
25 JUDGE ORIE: There's no need to --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We further continue.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
5 Mr. Registrar --
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I -- with your
7 leave, we would have an objection.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The reason for our objection to
10 admitting this part of the video-clip is the following. Or rather, there
11 are several reasons. First of all, we do not have a relevant enough
12 confirmation of the authenticity of the clip.
13 Secondly, the clip is so ambiguous in terms of the vehicle, in
14 terms of the place where the -- we can see the vehicle, as well as in
15 terms of the damage that may be seen on the vehicle possibly.
16 Thirdly, this video-clip, at least according to what we can see
17 as regards the date and the time, is not a contemporaneous video-clip.
18 Actually, it was taken after the tragic event.
19 So it is not a video-clip of the massacre. This is a not a
20 video-clip of the massacre. And it does not serve the purpose for which
21 it has been tendered. That is why we are of the opinion that this part
22 of the video-clip should not be admitted into evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You say "this part." I do not know whether there is
24 a broader video-clip. You suggest so, Mr. Stojanovic. Could you tell us
25 what your understanding is of any remainder we have not seen?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in our preparations
2 for today's session, I had an occasion to look at the video-clip which is
3 a compilation of several video-clips, it's rather lengthy. And it
4 doesn't comprise only the depiction of this bus but also the journey to
5 the place as well as the burial of the people killed there, and there are
6 also some other portions which are separate from this particular event.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would like to ask one or two questions to
8 the witness before we proceed.
9 Witness, could you tell us when the bus was shot at, when most of
10 the persons on board of this bus were killed, was it dark, was it light?
11 What time of the day was it?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was sometime around half past
13 6.00 or 7.00 in the afternoon. It was still daylight.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It was still daylight.
15 My next question is, you said this video depicts the massacre.
16 Now, from this video I did not observe anything of shooting which would
17 result, perhaps, in breaking glass or whatever. I do not see any of
18 that. How do I have to understand your testimony? That this depicts the
19 bus on which you were when you were massacred; or that this actually
20 depicts the shooting at the bus when --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The massacre was carried out. I
22 wish to say something. The massacre was carried out on the 14th of June,
23 1992, late in the afternoon. After the massacre was carried out, I and
24 my neighbours and friends managed to pull through, and I crawled through
25 the area until I reached a Muslim village sometime in the morning. I had
1 been walking through a forest all night.
2 When I arrived at that village, we were received by the
3 villagers, and then the Territorial Defence took two tractors in order to
4 pull out those massacred men, and it was then when the video-clip was
5 taken depicting the bus, the people on the bus, those who had been
6 massacred, and then those people were pulled out from the bus.
7 Dragan Ekanovic came to that place, together with the Chetnik escorts,
8 and he said that he had not seen anything on the bus when the bus passed
9 by him.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Were you present -- could I ask you the following
11 question --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And a little --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, were you present when this video
14 was taken the next morning?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was present when the bodies were
16 being pulled out from the bus and when they were brought to the grave
17 where they were buried. The Territorial Defence and its chief,
18 Dzafer Heric, did not allow me and my uncle to go down there. They
19 feared for our safety.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did you, that next morning, did you see the bus
21 again, which you had left that night before?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I was up there. We were
23 up there recovering and all that. All day on the third day of my stay in
24 Vukasevic village where I was being treated by the villagers, there was a
25 doctor there as well. On the third day, that bus was set on fire by
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask you --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I wish to say is --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you to focus your answers very much to
5 my questions.
6 You said the day after the massacre, the video was taken. I
7 asked you whether you were present when that video was taken. That
8 means: Were you in the vicinity of the bus, and could you see the bus?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 One second, please. First of all, Ms. Hasan, would you like to
12 respond to the objections to the video being admitted?
13 MS. HASAN: Yes, Mr. President.
14 The statement in the amalgamated statement that a particular
15 videographer or photographer filmed this video, and it does state there
16 that it is a video of the massacre, which we've always understood it to
17 be a video that was taken the day after the massacre of the bus, and
18 there's another clip we will be showing. These are just excerpts of the
19 entire video which is somewhat lengthy, that we selected, to be displaced
21 In terms of -- so in that respect, and on the basis of the
22 witness's evidence, that he recognises the bus that's on the video as the
23 bus that he was in, there is sufficient foundation for its admission. In
24 terms of the place and the damage to the vehicle and what can be seen, it
25 is -- the video is what it is. And it does have the dates -- date stamp
1 there. In terms of -- so there's no disagreement that it is not
2 depicting the actual shooting of the bus from our point of view.
3 And so the purpose of it is to -- the purpose of this clip that
4 we're tendering is to simply see which is what the witness has stated,
5 that this is, in fact, the bus that he recognises as the one he was in.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Now I think the objection was twofold.
7 First authenticity; second, the place and the identity and the
8 circumstance of all that; and it not being contemporaneous.
9 The latter matter has been dealt with to some extent. Do you
10 know who took the video? Is there information about who took the video,
11 any statement or any?
12 MS. HASAN: We'd have to dig in a little bit on that. I have --
13 I know it was seized in 2002, but I'll have to look a little bit closer
14 into from whom. I know what this witness has said, which it was a
15 photographer called Ibrahim who was present the day after on the
16 massacre -- the day after the massacre.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has decided that it will MFI the video
19 for the time being but we may have some additional questions on it
21 But, first, a number to be assigned to this video for purposes of
22 it being MFI'd, Mr. Registrar, will be.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 22388E shall be assigned
24 P257. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. It will keep the status
1 of marked for identification.
2 Judge Fluegge would have one or more questions for the witness.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, Mr. Witness.
4 Can you tell us a little bit more about the photographer who took
5 the video, according to your testimony. You called him Ibrahim. Can you
6 tell us, do you know this man personally --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Have you seen him while he was taking this video?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met him when he returned after he
10 had taken this video. He resided in Vogosca. He hails from Donje Selo,
11 a village not far from the one where I ended up after the massacre.
12 Since he could not stay in Vogosca, he returned to his native village.
13 He is a photographer by profession. He had a camera on him. He had
14 video cassettes, and he could use that to record the crime.
15 When I set out towards the free territory, I had that video
16 cassette on me. And I would like to say one more thing: That bus is
17 still on that day when -- where -- to this very day, this bus is on the
18 place where the massacre was carried out in Sokolina. Anybody can see
19 it. You can see the damage on the buses, and there's also a
20 commemorative plate which was placed there.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that answer.
22 What is the family name of this photographer, Ibrahim?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, I believe
24 that it is either Dzafic or Heric. I wouldn't know. It was a long time
25 ago. I don't recall. I know that his first name is Ibrahim.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. And what did he tell you at that day how he
2 got there and how he was able to film this event?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Territorial Defence unit had
4 already been set up in that village. It had its commander and its
5 members and he was one of them. There was also a doctor there who helped
6 us who had been wounded. He treated us. Dzafer Heric, the then-chief of
7 the regional Territorial Defence, hired him to record what had happened,
8 to record that crime. The Territorial Defence members took two tractors
9 and went down there in order to pull out the bodies.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that.
11 One final question. How did that happen, that you received this
12 video from this photographer? Why did he hand it over to you?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, so that I could testify to
14 the crimes committed by those Chetniks against the Muslims, just as I'm
15 testifying here today.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have a technical problem with the
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: It looks as if the videolink has been restored.
20 Could that be confirmed from the other side of the videolink.
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Let me ask one final question, another final
25 Did this photographer, Ibrahim, hand this video over to you that
1 day or at a later stage?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was on that day when I went to
3 Olovo with my relative in Vares, Visoko, in the direction of Sarajevo.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you hand this over to the Prosecution or any
5 other institution for the investigation of a crime; and, if so, when?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. About the 28th of December,
7 1992 I arrived in Hrasnica, and the army in Hrasnica took that cassette
8 from me. When I was to cross over the track at the airport, UNPROFOR
9 would take it and they would return it when they arrived in Sarajevo,
10 when they went to Sarajevo.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would also like to add that when
13 they came from the Hrasnica press centre to the television in Sarajevo,
14 they called me and returned the tape, but I was told that the tape had
15 been sent to other places abroad.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I also have one more question.
18 I was a bit uncertain about your answer on when you received this
19 video. You said you received it on the day you entered free territory
20 and, later on, when asked by Judge Fluegge, you said:
21 "It was on that day when I went to Olovo with my relative ..."
22 Now, when was that? Was that immediately after the event? Or
23 was it a week after or a month after? Could you please clarify.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was 11 days after the massacre.
25 We were recovering in the village of Vukasovici for 11 days. After an
1 11-day period, when we set off to Olovo -- well, in fact, after five days
2 Ibrahim gave me the tape because we said we were going to Sarajevo and
3 that we would like to have that tape. Five days later, he gave it to us.
4 After he had shot the footage. And on the 11th day, we left the village
5 of Vukasovici and went in the direction of Olovo and further on to
6 Sarajevo. I took that tape with me as far as Hrasnica, which is located
7 in the surroundings of Sarajevo, and it is there that the army said that
8 if I took it over the tarmac, because there was no other way to reach
9 Sarajevo, you had to cross the tarmac, the army said that in that case,
10 the UNPROFOR -- UNPROFOR take it from me. They had some secret routes
11 that they used, and they would use those routes to take it with them, and
12 they would return it to me when I came to Sarajevo. I received that tape
13 at a later date.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, would you please focus on my questions
15 only. And if I need more information, I'll certainly ask you for it.
16 What I'd like to know is when he gave you the tape after five
17 days, did you already look at the tape at that time? So did you watch
18 what was on the tape?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So when, for the first time, did you watch what was
21 on the tape you had received from Ibrahim?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I arrived in Visoko.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And when --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a man who took me in
25 there --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said in Visoko. When was that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was around the 30th of June.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that some -- close to ten days after you
4 received the video, you watched its content.
5 Is that correctly understood?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 10 or 15 days later.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will further wait for further
11 information to receive from the Prosecution.
12 Any further questions, Ms. Hasan? Because we interrupted, more
13 or less -- when you tendered the video, we interrupted your
15 MS. HASAN: Yes, I do, Mr. President. A few more questions.
16 In fact, I was going to play another clip from this same video.
17 It's 65 ter 22388G.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please play the other video.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MS. HASAN:
21 Q. Witness, what, if anything, can you tell us about the scenes that
22 we just saw on that video-clip?
23 A. The video-clip shows the locals performing an exhumation of a
24 mass grave, and they used two tractors to transport the locals of the
25 village of Ahatovici who had been killed. The cemetery they were buried in,
1 the grave they were buried in, is at Ravno in the village of Vukasovici,
2 and that grave is still located there.
3 Q. Were you present that day when the massacred bodies were buried,
4 as shown on this video?
5 A. Yes, I was there, as well as my uncle, and we had to identify all
6 those who had been massacred. However, there were no documents. They
7 confiscated the documents when we were taken captive, so it was only on
8 the basis of their clothing, on the basis of their footwear that we could
9 identify them. On occasion, we identified someone on the basis of that
10 person's features or face, but this was rarely possible, in fact, as the
11 faces were not always intact.
12 Q. Were any of the persons on the video familiar to you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was this clip of the video, was this part of the video footage
15 taken by Ibrahim which was subsequently given to you?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I would also seek the admission of
18 this video. It comes from the same source as the first one, and we will
19 endeavour to provide also additional information.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It will be marked for identification.
21 Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 22388G shall be assigned
23 P258, marked for identification. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it will keep that status for the time
1 I would, nevertheless, have a few questions again also on this
3 Witness, you said -- and could we have -- could we have it played
4 just in the beginning and then have a still.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we have a still here.
7 Yes. Witness, you told us that the video-clip shows the locals
8 performing an exhumation of a mass grave. First of all, you were not
9 present when this happened, or were you?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, was it an exhumation? I see that there is a
12 date on this video, which is the 15th of June, in the early afternoon --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Was it --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's when the work was coming to
16 an end, roughly speaking.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was it an exhumation? Because if I remember
18 well, the -- what was it -- if it was --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- was no exhumation?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The massacred bodies had been taken
22 and a grave was, in fact, dug, and they were buried.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you were present when this happened?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you recognise what you just saw in the video as
1 reflecting what you saw at the time?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The grave is to the left-hand side,
3 in my direction. That's where the grave is located.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you recognise the scenery and persons and
5 the event --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the entrance to the houses,
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, my last question would be: You said you
9 received the videotape, and you watched it approximately ten days after
10 you received it. Was this footage on that same videotape you had
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And was the portion we saw earlier - about the bus -
14 was that also on the tape you viewed ten days after you had received it?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I had all the footage on one
16 tape. It included the time when they were taken out of the bus, the
17 massacred people were taken out of the bus, and the time when they were
18 buried in the grave.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked the video to stop at 12:08 seconds, I
22 take it, from the footage we just watched.
23 Ms. Hasan, any further questions for the witness?
24 MS. HASAN: Just some final questions.
25 Q. Witness, how long after the guards and Zuti got off the bus did
1 the fire begin?
2 A. When the bus came to a halt in Sokolina, they said they had to
3 pour in some water because the engine had overheated. When they got out,
4 they ordered us to remain still. They said they would throw a grenade at
5 us and open fire. About 15 seconds after they got off the bus, you could
6 hear a loud explosion at the front of the bus and then they opened fire
7 from all of their weapons.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. Osa 79-millimetre -- or rather 90-millimetre hand-held
10 rocket-launcher was used and two Zoljas were used, then they threw in
11 hand-grenades, they opened fire from automatic rifles and machine-guns,
12 and this assault lasted for about 15 minutes.
13 Q. Thank you, Witness. Were there any Serbs in the bus at the time
14 it was fired at?
15 A. No.
16 Q. When you and the other survivors got off the bus, did you see the
17 vehicles that had escorted the bus to this location?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you see --
20 A. When they finished shooting -- no.
21 Q. Did you see Zuti or any of the other guards when you eventually
22 got off the bus? Were they present?
23 A. No. After they had perpetrated the massacre, they turned the
24 engines on and set off in the direction of Srednje.
25 Q. In paragraph 52 of your amalgamated statement you gave evidence
1 that Zuti stopped at Srednje on the way to Sokolina and that at that
2 point you could no longer hear the vehicles that had been accompanying
3 the bus up until that point. Later, at paragraph 54, you state that
4 after the attack --
5 A. [No interpretation]
6 Q. Sorry, Witness, if I can just complete my question and then you
7 can answer.
8 You then state at paragraph 54 that after the attack on the bus,
9 you heard two limousines stop alongside the bus. You heard two men have
10 a conversation. And I just wanted to ask you, based on what you were
11 able to hear or see, can you explain whether the four vehicles that
12 started off escorting you at Rajlovac had, in fact, escorted you all the
13 way to Sokolina?
14 A. When we left Rajlovac, there were four vehicles escorting us.
15 Two at the front; two at the back. I heard the sound of the vehicles
16 accompanying us as far as Srednje. When the bus stopped in Srednje,
17 Zuti, the driver, asked a guard, I suppose, at the check-point how many
18 kilometres remained to Sokolina. As far as I can remember, he said
19 between 6 and 8 kilometres. Zuti closed the window and moved on. But
20 from Srednje to Sokolina, I didn't hear any vehicles behind us
21 accompanying us, so one might assume that those vehicles were full of
22 those Chetniks and they left to lay an ambush at the time.
23 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I have no further questions for the
24 witness at this time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan.
1 I think it's time to take a break.
2 Mr. Stojanovic, could you give us an indication as to how much
3 time you would need for cross-examination?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I don't
5 think I'll need much time, and I'll perhaps be able to conclude my
6 cross-examination within one hour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll take a break, and -- yes,
8 Mr. Groome, anything?
9 MR. GROOME: Does the Chamber wish me to make arrangements or ask
10 VWS to return Mr. Selak for this afternoon?
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's a reasonable expectation that we will
12 conclude the testimony of this witness in, well, let's say close to 1.00.
13 And then if Mr. Selak would be available --
14 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- that would assist.
16 Madam Registrar at the other side of the videolink, we'll take a
17 break and we'll resume in half an hour from now; that is, 20 minutes to
19 [The witness stands down]
20 --- Recess taken at 11.11 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.42 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask Madam Registrar the other side of the
23 videolink, whether the witness can be escorted in the courtroom -- in the
24 videolink room, I should say.
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM145, can you still hear me and see me?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
5 Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
6 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir.
10 A. Good day.
11 Q. I'm going to put a few questions to you in relation to your
12 testimony today. I would kindly ask you not to mention the name of the
13 place where you hail from because of all of us in the courtroom know
14 which place this is. Thank you.
15 In paragraph 4 of your statement, and the Prosecutor asked you
16 today whether you accepted fully as your own, you say that at one point
17 in time the members of the paramilitary units in the surrounding area,
18 around your village, were issued with uniforms and weapons of the former
19 JNA. You say that they wore these uniforms, and these uniforms bore the
20 insignia with four Ss in Cyrillic. Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What I wish to ask you is the following. How do you, and in
23 which way, assess who is a paramilitary and who was a member of the
24 regular army?
25 A. I wish to say to you that when the army received orders to
1 withdraw and to leave the barracks, they took along what was
2 indispensable. However, quite a bit of equipment and uniforms stayed
3 behind in the barracks. And then they gave the local Serbs the barracks
4 and put the barracks at their disposal.
5 Q. My question was whether you make a distinction between members of
6 regular military forces of the Army of Republika Srpska and
7 paramilitaries that you called Arkan's Men, Seselj's Men, and the White
9 A. Yes. When I was taken prisoner and when I was brought before the
10 barracks in Butile, I considered as paramilitaries those who wore
11 everyday clothing. They had those fur hats with cockades. Then they had
12 white ribbons around their arms, and some wore red berets. That would be
13 it. Some of them wore military uniforms of the former JNA.
14 Q. In your statement further on, you say that in May 1992 all Serb
15 families that lived in the neighbouring villages - not to mention the
16 names of these villages - had left their homes and moved closer to the
17 military barracks in Rajlovac. You think that they had been ordered to
18 leave their homes so that paramilitary units could establish their own
19 military positions there. Do you remember that part of your statement?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Do you think to this day that the reason why the Serb civilian
22 population left their homes closer -- getting closer to the barracks was
23 precisely this possibility of engaging paramilitaries in establishing
24 front lines?
25 A. I'll tell you something. Someone - and I don't know who - said
1 to the Serbs that 500 Green Berets arrived in the village. And that's
2 not correct. I'd really like to see someone take a Green Beret prisoner.
3 Q. But will you agree with me that this was precisely the time when
4 in your village and in the neighbouring village that was populated by
5 Muslims, a Territorial Defence Staff was established and about 150
6 long-barrelled rifles were distributed?
7 A. It wasn't 150 long-barrelled rifles that were distributed.
8 Rather, it was mostly police reservists who were in the village and who
9 used to go hunting, and some of them had pistols and whatever. It was
10 only the reserve police that had long-barrelled rifles. If you consider
11 a hunting gun to be a long-barrelled rifle, then ...
12 Q. Do you consider hunting weapons to be infantry weapons, small
14 A. No. This is guns that are used for hunting.
15 Q. Please let us take a look at paragraph 10 together.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P255, Your Honours. It's under
17 seal. Just recently we had it admitted into evidence.
18 Q. Let us take a look at this together, and could you try to explain
19 this to us. Sir, in paragraph 10 of the statement that you say you fully
20 stand by, you say --
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I assume that you
22 do have the English version in front of you.
23 Q. -- in order to organise ourselves as best we could, we
24 established a Crisis Staff headed by a certain person. You gave the name
25 there. And you say:
1 "We had about 150 barrels of infantry weapons."
2 Now I'm asking you whether these weapons were given to you or
3 whether you had them from earlier on?
4 A. No. These are people who had weapons of their own, either
5 hunting guns or pistols. It was only the reserve police force that had
6 been issued with automatic rifles.
7 Q. What do you mean then by this statement, when you say that you
8 had about 150 barrels of infantry weapons?
9 A. Well, I consider all of it to be weapons. However, when you
10 don't have anything else, a hunting gun can be an infantry weapon too.
11 Q. Thank you. When your village was attacked -- actually, before
12 that, local paramilitary units and members of the former JNA asked you to
13 hand over these weapons; is that correct?
14 A. There was no mention of weapons. What they said was that men
15 from age 15 to 70 should come to the barracks and that our safety and
16 freedom would be guaranteed.
17 Q. Before your village was attacked, were you asked to hand over
18 weapons? Was it the former JNA and local paramilitaries that asked you
19 to do that?
20 A. No. They went about in an APC and said through a loud-speaker
21 that we should surrender.
22 Q. In that way, were you told to hand over weapons?
23 A. Well, probably.
24 Q. You did not hand over these weapons; am I right?
25 A. I, as an individual, did not even have any weapons. As for the
1 others, since the village had been attacked, there was no need to
2 surrender weapons. They put up resistance as best they could.
3 Q. Fighting around your village took two days, from the 27th until
4 the 29th of May. And these attacks continued until the morning of the
5 29th of May, but they were successfully repelled by your side; is that
7 A. How successful it was is something I cannot say. But during
8 those few days, we had been shelled from all the artillery weapons that
9 the former JNA had.
10 Q. On the 29th of May, 1992, members of Serb paramilitary forces
11 entered your village; right?
12 A. Yes, that's right. After the shelling, there was even more
13 shelling in front of the infantry. Paramilitaries entered the village,
14 and behind them were tanks and APCs, and -- and there was general chaos.
15 Everybody tried to flee.
16 Q. During the direct examination, you mentioned that these were
17 units under the control or command of a man whose name, surname, and
18 nickname, you mentioned. Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you tell the Court who this man is? Is he a military man
21 at all?
22 A. That is Jovan Tintor, nicknamed Joja. I knew him only because
23 his land and his house were about 3 kilometres away from mine, and he
24 used to know my late uncles because they went to school together.
25 Q. Will you agree with me that he's not military personnel?
1 A. I never said that he was military personnel.
2 Q. To this day, you say that he then led the paramilitaries that
3 attacked your village, or, rather, entered your village.
4 A. When I was taken prisoner, when we were singled out, and when
5 these people were killed, he came wearing a military uniform of the
6 former JNA. And it was the summer JNA uniform, at that, military
7 uniform. He had a cap on, and on this cap there was a five-pointed star.
8 Q. Among the people who you recognised, as you were retreating, and
9 as you were taken prisoner, you mentioned several names; do you remember
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I would be interested in the following, and I'd like to redress
13 that problem. You mentioned the name of Dragan Koprivica and Arnautovic,
14 Bato. Do you remember these two names?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Bato Arnautovic is that the same person as Davor Arnautovic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I'm asking you this because I would like to eliminate the
19 difference that I see in your statement. Please let us look at
20 paragraph 22 together of the statement that was admitted into evidence
21 today; P255.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you say, among other things, when --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, paragraph 22 is redacted, so
25 therefore there's no need to look at it together with the witness. The
1 Chamber doesn't know what it says.
2 If there's any matter you'd like to raise which is found there,
3 then you have to introduce it not by reference to paragraph 22, but --
4 and if you have any concerns about inaccuracies in paragraph 22, there's
5 no need to raise it because we can't read it so we're not bothered by the
6 inaccuracies. But if there's any other reason why you want to address
7 matters dealt with in paragraph 22, then, of course, you may proceed.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'll
9 take things differently.
10 Q. What I would like to ask you is this: Am I right in saying that
11 you were present when Dragan Koprivica and Bato Arnautovic opened fire
12 from fire-arms at the Muslims in the second group of detainees and then
13 they slit their throats; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. I would like to under line something else. Bato is a
15 nickname and Davor is his brother. (redacted)
16 (redacted), and also about Dragan Koprivica. I didn't know them
17 well. When they separated us over there, when they turned up and
18 committed crimes, he told me this is Dragan Koprivica, Bato Arnautovic,
19 and Davor.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up
22 a document under seal, 1D272.
23 Q. Let's pay attention to the first paragraph on page 3 in B/C/S.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is also page 3
25 in the English version.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we continue with that, there's all kind
2 of interference on the English audio channel. I now -- it's 12.00, the
3 bells are ringing. I hear in the background. Could it be taken care of
4 that we do not have this other sound. It can come from Sarajevo; it can
5 come from here.
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I'm informed that you did not
8 provide the document to the Registry in Sarajevo; is that correct?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is correct,
10 Your Honours. I told the Registrar that we would be using his statement.
11 We have not handed them over. I believe that they're right.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And you would expect them to find it themselves and
13 print it out instead of it being provide it -- provided with it by you?
14 That's, let me say, at least is a wrong understanding of how it works.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. In any case,
16 no. I'll try and avoid that. I'll try to overcome that inconsistency.
17 I'll try to do that through my questions to the witness, with your leave.
18 With your leave, Your Honours.
19 Q. Sir, do you recall whether on the 15th of April, 1993, you
20 contacted the institute for research of inhumane treatments, and did you
21 provide them with a statement to that effect?
22 A. I can't remember.
23 Q. Would you allow for a possibility that in 1993 you provided such
24 a statement to that institute, amongst other institutions?
25 A. It is possible.
1 Q. I'm asking you this because I would like to know at any point in
2 time, to the best of your recollection, mentioned the name Davor
3 Arnautovic, instead of Bato when you spoke about these events.
4 A. It is possible, but I mentioned both of them.
5 Q. Are you saying that both brothers, together with Mr. Koprivica,
6 participated in that act?
7 A. No, not both of them. But they were all present there.
8 Q. To the best of your recollection, do you still claim today that
9 when it comes to shooting and the act of slaughter, that either Davor or
10 Bato Arnautovic participated in that?
11 A. It was Bato Arnautovic who participated in that together with the
12 Dragan Koprivica. (redacted)
13 addressed them by those names.
14 Q. Would you agree with me that you, in practical terms, did not
15 recognise either of those persons. You are testifying today based on
16 what another person told you about those individuals? Are you -- am I
18 A. Yes. When it comes to their identification. However, I saw
19 those men and my nephew told me what their names were, and that's what I
20 am calling them today.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. There's a simple reason why I'm going to put the next question to
16 you. Do you know which paramilitary units those three individuals that
17 you have just mentioned belonged to?
18 A. They belonged to Joja Tintor's unit. When Joja Tintor appeared
19 everybody addressed him as their commander, and they consulted with him
20 about the detainees. They asked him what to do with the detainees. They
21 were Chetniks.
22 Q. When you say Chetniks, what do you have in mind?
23 A. I have in mind those paramilitary units who sported fur hats and
24 cockades on their heads.
25 Q. Thank you. Just one more question. Do you know personally when
1 the Army of Republika Srpska was officially established?
2 A. No, I don't know that.
3 Q. You have mentioned two more names and, again, the names of two
4 brothers, Goran and Zoran Damjanovic. Do you remember that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Would you agree with me that those two were on trial before the
7 court of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. They were on trial for the events about which you yourself
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you agree with me that those two individuals were found
13 guilty and sentenced?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. Do you know that on the 12th of December, 2012, there will be a
16 hearing before the human rights court on their appeal?
17 A. I don't know that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, listening to your last five
19 questions, is there any dispute about this?
20 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, no. The individuals are named in the
21 statement. In fact --
22 JUDGE ORIE: No, my question is the question -- the last five
23 questions were do you know that they were prosecuted, do you know that
24 they were convicted, et cetera. Is there any dispute about all that?
25 MS. HASAN: No, not from our side.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, why do you ask this witness on
2 matters which are not in dispute? You could agree on it. Quickest way
3 of dealing with the matter.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I
5 would like to respond. First of all, I simply don't know what's not in
6 dispute in view of the examination-in-chief.
7 Secondly, I was not a position to meet with the Prosecutor
8 yesterday afternoon and stipulate on what the witness was going to
9 testify about. In the future, I'll try and do that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, it's not without reason that I ask
11 whether there's any dispute, because it's very difficult to imagine that
12 these facts, as court proceedings and judgements, that it's all
13 documented, that -- I -- I hardly could imagine that there would be any
14 dispute about it. Apart from that, I do not know yet what the relevance
15 of it is. So therefore if you say I had no opportunity, I would say next
16 time if you have such -- it's not one question, it's five questions in a
17 row, try to find out. And let's focus on matters which are in dispute.
18 That is what we are primarily here for. Please proceed.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I am
21 Q. The two individuals you have just mentioned, Goran and
22 Zoran Damjanovic, were they also members of the same paramilitary
23 formation as the Arnautovic brothers and Koprivica?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. And now, let's look at paragraph 34 in your
1 statement, which has been admitted as P255. Here, you speak about those
2 individuals who were in charge of the facility where you were
3 accommodated, the fuel tank. And you say that a person, whose name was
4 Mile Stojanovic, came with another person named Sok and four other
5 persons who escorted them. He came up to the fuel reservoir, he
6 introduced himself as the commander of the camp, and you say that they
7 were dressed in blue uniforms similar to police uniforms. My question is
8 this: Was it your conclusion that people who guarded you were, indeed,
9 members of the police?
10 A. They wore uniforms of the Orao air force institute. Those
11 uniforms were blue.
12 Q. You don't know whether they were soldiers or police officers; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Well, since they wore air force uniforms, in my mind they were
16 Q. Are those uniforms similar to police uniforms?
17 A. Yes. That uniform consists of a blue shirt and blue trousers.
18 Sok also sported a cap, and on the cap there was a flag of the former
19 Yugoslavia, and on his shirt, on the right-hand shoulder, he had the same
20 flag on -- on his sleeve.
21 Q. Thank you. And now let's deal with the part of your testimony
22 when you were taken towards Srednje. You mentioned the village of
23 Sokolina. Could you please tell the Court how far is that village from
24 the place where you were billeted at the time? And I'm referring to the
1 A. Approximately some 35 to 40 kilometres.
2 Q. To your best recollection, how much time did it take you to
3 travel that route on the bus?
4 A. About an hour.
5 Q. Is the village of Sokolina on the main road leading from Sarajevo
6 to Olovo or did you have to make a detour?
7 A. As you travelled down the main road and as you arrive in Srednje,
8 you turn left and then you take the old road -- regional road under the
9 bridge in the direction of the stone quarry, which is nearby. The
10 village of Sokolina itself is a village with a sawmill, a barn, and a
11 house on the right-hand side of the road. There is a little stream
12 parallel with the road.
13 Q. How far is it that from the main road leading from Sarajevo to
15 A. About 6 to 7 kilometres.
16 Q. For the benefit of us who are not familiar with the area, could
17 you tell us whether at the time in 1992 it was in the territory under the
18 control of the Serbian forces, or --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, apparently the connection with
20 Sarajevo has been cut. Therefore, we have to wait until it's there
22 [Technical difficulty]
23 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the connection has been restored.
24 Could you please restart your last question after I have verified that
25 the witness can hear and see us.
1 Can you see and hear us, Witness?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. My last question was how far was it from the main road. You said
6 6 to 7 kilometres, and then I started putting another question to you
7 that perhaps you did not hear. That question was: Could you help us who
8 are not familiar with the area, could you tell us whether that place at
9 the time of these tragic events in 1992 was under the control of members
10 of the Serbian armed forces or under the control of members of the Muslim
11 armed forces?
12 A. Let me tell you the road, the local road from Srednje leads as
13 far as the village of Mokro and beyond to Pale. On the right-hand
14 side -- when you leave from the direction of Srednje, on the right-hand
15 side there were the Serbs or the Serbian villages and the place known as
16 Visojevci. Vogosca was beyond the hill. And on the left-hand side there
17 were the Muslim villages and the Territorial Defence was there. In the
18 vicinity of the village of Vukasovici there was a Serbian village known
19 as Drazevici and the Serbs lived there quite normally.
20 Q. What I'm asking you about, and I would like you to assist us if
21 you know the answer, has to do with the place where the tragic event
22 occurred. Was that place under the control of the armed forces of
23 Republika Srpska or under the control of the armed forces of Bosnia and
24 Herzegovina? In whose area did this event occur?
25 A. The armed forces of Republika Srpska used that road. And when I
1 survived the massacre, after I had recovered, there's a place from which
2 you can see that road, and there was a carrier from the Army of
3 Republika Srpska that was controlling that road with a jeep escort. But
4 I'd like to add that that road was used to take all goods to Pale and
5 elsewhere. And let me also say that they dug a road from Vogosca through
6 the village of Visojevci and I saw trailer trucks using that road to
7 transport looted goods from Sarajevo.
8 Q. This is what I wanted to ask you about. If I've understood you
9 correctly, that road passes through the lines that were under the control
10 of the Army of Republika Srpska, and on the left side under the control
11 of the Territorial Defence and the ABiH forces; is that correct?
12 A. Yes. But I would also like to add something. That was the case
13 until the massacre occurred. The Muslims and the Serbs were negotiating
14 in the village of Gajavi [phoen] in the police centre. And this was the
15 case until the massacre occurred. When the massacre occurred, these two
16 sides started fighting each other.
17 I also want to say that when I left Vukasovici to go to Visoko, a
18 month or a month and a half later, the inhabitants from Vukasovici and
19 the inhabitants of those Muslim villages fled to Visoko because the
20 Chetniks had taken those villages.
21 Q. Could we just move on a little more rapidly, please. Just answer
22 my questions and I'll try to be as simple as possible. Thank you.
23 A. I only wanted to explain things.
24 Q. Very well. If that's necessary, I'm grateful.
25 My following question: To the best of your recollection, fire
1 was opened on the bus from the front part of the bus, when you're looking
2 in the direction that you were advancing in; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. But -- but it was also from the side.
4 Q. Could you tell us, to the best of your recollection, how long did
5 this shooting last?
6 A. About 15 minutes.
7 Q. You didn't see any of the men who opened fire; is that correct?
8 A. I didn't. I was under a pile of dead bodies.
9 Q. So you weren't able to see them at any point in time. And when
10 you got out from under those bodies, you couldn't see any of the people
11 who had taken part in the shooting; is that correct?
12 A. That's correct. I didn't see anyone, but I heard everything.
13 When they massacred everyone, they turned their engines on, they came out
14 to the bus. One person from one vehicle told another person in another
15 vehicle to get on the bus and see if anyone was alive, but this person
16 cursed him and said you go and check if you are interested in that, and
17 they closed the door and returned to Srednje.
18 Q. You have already spoken about that. My question now is as
19 follows: You don't know and you never found out which formation these
20 men whose voices you heard were members of; is that correct?
21 A. I don't know which units they belonged to, but I assume that
22 those who perpetrated the massacre turned their engines on immediately,
23 and someone said that they should check whether anyone was still alive.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the question, the last one, whether
25 the witness found out the formation these men were members of, was that
1 whether he had seen that? Is that what you intended to ask the witness?
2 Yes. Then it's the third time in 30 seconds that you ask the same
3 question to the witness. The first time he said I couldn't see anything
4 because I was under a pile of bodies. Then you asked him whether he
5 could not see outside who were the perpetrators, and of course the answer
6 was no. And then the witness started elaborating on all kind of things
7 we have found already in his statement and he repeats it, and you let him
8 go. And then you now ask it for the third time.
9 That is not the way the Chamber expects you to conduct the
10 cross-examination and also not to ask how long the shooting lasted if the
11 witness has told us that half an hour ago that it was 15 minutes.
12 There's no need to ask the same again and again and again. Would you
13 please take care that you finish in approximately the time you indicated.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour. But the
15 question was also whether he subsequently obtained any information
16 because we'll be dealing with that. That is mentioned in his statement
17 at a later stage. I'll move on.
18 Q. Sir, let's have a look at your statement that you have before
19 you, P255. Let's have a look at the part of your statement,
20 paragraph 55, where you say:
21 "When the locals from Vukasovici arrived at the site of the
22 massacre, they found a Chetnik patrol there with two trucks that were
23 supposed to tow the bus away together with the bodies of the people
24 killed in the massacre. They were told to leave."
25 Can you see that part of your statement? It's paragraph 55.
1 A. Paragraph 55.
2 "I saw three neighbours of mine coming after me ... "
3 Q. Please pay attention to the penultimate sentence and the last
4 sentence in that paragraph where it says the following -- my question in
5 fact is since we understand that you didn't go back there, who went to
6 the scene? Members of the ABiH or, as you say, a Chetnik patrol with two
8 A. A Chetnik patrol arrived with two lorries. Heric Dzafer told me
9 about that when he had returned with the tractors and the massacred
10 bodies. He said he had come across the Chetniks and he had also seen
11 Dragan Ikanovic among them. He was standing there and he said that he
12 hadn't taken part in the incident and that he hadn't seen anyone in the
14 Q. Thank you. Would you explain for the benefit of the Chamber how
15 it is possible, if that is what they told you, because I know that you
16 weren't at the site yourself, how is it possible for a Chetnik patrol to
17 arrive then tries to remove the bodies, and at that point in time members
18 of the ABiH arrive from the village of Vukasovici, and no incident
19 occurs? What in fact happened?
20 A. There was no incident because they had been negotiating up until
21 that point in time, and when they arrived there, Heric Dzafer, the chief,
22 said they should be removed because there were 30 members of the
23 Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They were armed. He told
24 Dragan -- or he asked Dragan, What have you done, Dragan? And Dragan
25 replied and said he didn't know anything about it. He then said they
1 should be removed, the bodies should be taken so that they could be
2 buried. And then he said, Dragan, we have living witnesses.
3 Q. Are you now telling us that after the event the patrol of
4 Chetniks with their vehicles left the bodies to members of the ABiH and
5 they withdrew from the site without a fight?
6 A. Yes, that's right, because the Territorial Defence was more
7 powerful so they couldn't do anything. They returned three days later
8 and they set fire to that bus.
9 Q. The vehicle you said was an armoured personnel carrier and
10 controlled the road. Could that vehicle have gone into action at that
11 place, at that site where these two groups from the warring factions were
13 A. At the time, this personnel carrier was not there.
14 Q. With regard to the Chetnik units and patrols that you have
15 mentioned, did these patrols discuss the identity of those who
16 participated in the crime?
17 A. Dragan Ikanovic told Heric, Dzafer that Boro Radic and Ratko Adic
18 were involved in the incident.
19 Q. Who is --
20 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Do I understand you well, Witness, that
21 all what you're telling us what happened at that moment when the TO came
22 and wanted to remove the bodies, that's all hearsay. You were not
23 present, were you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you can ask the witness what he was
1 told. But to say what did whom, at what time, et cetera, for -- as a
2 question to someone who was not present is -- well, is at risk to produce
3 unreliable evidence. So please keep that in mind.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. When I put my question to you I was aware of the fact that you
6 weren't present. But as I will shortly be concluding my
7 cross-examination, I would just like to ask you the following. The
8 second clip that we had a look at today, and you said in relation to that
9 clip that you were present when the footage was taken of the grave being
10 dug and of the burial, could you tell us whether this footage was taken
11 in a continuous way? Did the cameraman shoot the footage continuously?
12 A. I don't know whether he used up one cassette and then put another
13 cassette in the camera. I don't know. But the cassette that he gave to
14 me had footage of the entire event from the beginning to the end.
15 Q. On the cassette that he gave to you, were there any chronological
17 A. Well, there were interruptions. He would shoot one scene and
18 then there would be a cut and then he would shoot another scene, so, yes,
19 there were such interruptions.
20 Q. Do you know whether he had several cassettes or was there only
21 one cassette that he gave to you?
22 A. I do not know. But he gave me one cassette five days later,
23 after he had processed it.
24 Q. Are you telling us that this cassette was copied in the village
25 when you arrived there?
1 A. He had to copy it because the camera has a small cassette and he
2 to copy that footage onto a large cassette.
3 Q. Was the burial of these victims done on the same day when the
4 bodies were collected from the site where they were killed?
5 A. Yes. They were brought in in the morning and the bodies were
6 buried on the same day. That was on the 15th in 1992.
7 Q. And were you ever told that any parts of the video footage were
9 A. No.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I
11 would like to have a look at another clip again from the video that we've
12 already had a look at. It's 65 ter 22388G, and I would just like to ask
13 the witness to explain -- provide us with some explanations concerning
14 this segment. And I'd like to view the clip from the very beginning and
15 up to the 39th second of the clip. Could we please see the clip now.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. While we're following this footage, I would like to ask you,
19 Mr. Witness, to focus on the lower left-hand corner where you will see
20 the time and the date of this video-clip. You will see the time and date
21 of the video-clip there. Please focus on the 36th second of this
22 video-clip, and then I'm going to ask you to explain this to us. Since
23 you said that you had been there, so you will tell us how come this
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So, for the transcript, we see the time as 13:58. And could we
3 please go on now. Three more seconds to go. We can stop now, and the
4 time here is 14:41.
5 Bearing in mind what we saw, I would like to ask you the
6 following. This interruption and after that the continuation of this
7 filming, some 50 minutes later, was that the result of a total
8 interruption in the filming or was it the result of the removal of part
9 of this film?
10 A. No, this was interrupted. The man took a rest for an hour. He
11 ate and things like that. So he took a bit of a rest.
12 Q. Thank you. And I will conclude with the following question. Do
13 you know whether to this day anyone, before any court, was tried because
14 of what you testified about today, because of the deaths of these people
15 on the bus?
16 A. Yes. Mr. Karadzic.
17 Q. Do you know whether any of the possible perpetrators were tried
18 before any court of law?
19 A. Yes. Well, no, not perpetrators, but rather those who took part
20 in this from when I was taken prisoner. It was the Damjanovic brothers,
21 Goran and Zoran. And they were convicted, too.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions for you.
23 A. You're welcome.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 Ms. Hasan, any need for further questions? But let me first
1 consult with my colleagues.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the document, I think it was 1D272
5 or something like that, which you had on the screen but which was not
6 provided to the representative in Sarajevo, you hardly used it with the
7 witness, I think. May we take it that you do not intend to tender it?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. And
9 I accept the fact that this is an omission on my part. We hadn't
10 submitted it on time. I quoted it, so it will do.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, any further questions for the witness?
12 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I don't have any further questions for
13 the witness. However, I wanted to raise the issue of the video footage
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we need the witness for that? I mean, if
16 you consider it possible that it would trigger further questions to the
17 witness, then please do it now. If you say, no, that's unimaginable,
18 then we could first excuse the witness.
19 MS. HASAN: I think we can excuse the witness at this point.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Witness RM145, this concludes your
21 testimony. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to the videolink
22 room and for answering all the questions that were put to you by the
23 parties and by the Judges. I wish you a safe return home again.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I also wish
25 you all the best.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. The representative of the Registry in
2 Sarajevo, we can conclude the videolink at this very moment.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
6 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, given all the questions that were asked
7 and the evidence that's now on the record, it's the Prosecution's
8 position that there's a sufficient foundation for the admission of MFI
9 P257 and MFI P258, both excerpts of a video taken -- taken by an
10 individual we have heard named Ibrahim. The witness has given evidence
11 that he received the video from -- from the -- from Ibrahim shortly after
12 it was taken. He watched the video just a few days after that. He has
13 testified that the events depicted or the scenes depicted on the video
14 reflected what saw when he was present at the scene the day after. He
15 recognised the bus as the one that he was in that was shot at. He
16 recognised the location. And it is, in our respectful submission, what
17 it pour puts to be, a video taken the day after the massacre depicting
18 the bus the witness was in and the removal and burial of the bodies that
19 same -- the subsequent day, on the 15th of June.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does that mean that you withdraw your offer to
21 provide us with the information about when it was seized, where it was
22 seized, from whom it was seized? The Chamber would like to have complete
23 information on all aspects regarding authenticity. For example, whether
24 it was the same tape or whether this was a copy or that -- we do not know
1 MS. HASAN: We're still investigating that, and we will provide
2 that information.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll wait for that information.
4 Then there are a few procedural matters I'd like to briefly deal
5 with. We could then take a break and then we could resume the
6 examination of Mr. Selak.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I was informed that he would be here
8 from 12.30 so that should be possible.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's ...
10 First, yesterday I dealt with MFIs P80 and, as I said at the
11 time, P89. These are the exhibits which were tendered through
12 Witness van Lynden. I admitted these two and the Defence stated that
13 they had no further objections to it.
14 Now I made a mistake there. I read P80 and P89, but the issue
15 was about P80 up to and including P89. I made a mistake there.
16 May I take it, in the absence of any further comments, that the
17 withdrawal of objections concerned P80 up to and including P89?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then I hereby put on the record that P80 up to and
20 including P89 are admitted into evidence.
21 I briefly turn to Witness RM066. The Defence was given time
22 until yesterday midday to make submissions on the MFIs P186, P188, up to
23 and including P190 and P192. The Chamber has not received any
24 submissions. Is the Defence ready to make submissions or does it not
25 wish to make any further submissions?
1 MR. LUKIC: It's not that we don't wish. And obviously we missed
2 the deadline. And right now, I have no idea, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then please look at it during the next break so that
4 we can see and hear what your position is.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, now moving to the other side, talking about
7 deadlines, the Prosecution was given until Monday this week to provide
8 updates on its plans for -- for its plan for 92 bis and 92 quater
9 motions, but I don't think the Chamber has received anything of the kind.
10 Or did we?
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, my understanding was, that's why I'd
12 said last week that I was prepared to give those orally on Friday, I
13 thought the instruction to us was to give those orally. I'm prepared to
14 give them at any moment that the Chamber has some time.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'd like to hear them now.
16 MR. GROOME: I think they're of --
17 JUDGE ORIE: But not now.
18 MR. GROOME: Well, they're --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know how much time it takes, but...
20 MR. GROOME: I think it may take about 20 to 30 minutes to give a
21 detailed --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that's quite a while.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I withdraw the offer to make those submissions at
25 this very moment.
1 MR. GROOME: -- could I say to the Chamber that it appears that
2 the way things have progressed this week that we will not have a witness
3 for the -- that will fill the entire hearing time this week.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll then at least have further time to hear
5 your submissions.
6 MR. GROOME: And I'm ready at any time to make them, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then one of the things I had forgotten to put
8 on the record is that the request for leave to reply in relation to
9 Witness RM145, that the Chamber had decided to granted that request for
10 leave. It was filed on the 31st of August, I think, in relation to the
11 Defence response on the 92 ter motion. It's hereby put on the record
12 that leave to file this reply is granted and hereby put on the record.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I don't know off the top of my head
14 whether that was one of the situations where we attached the draft reply
15 or the reply as an annex.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think you had in your -- you attached it -- well,
17 but --
18 MR. GROOME: I'll check that over the break, Your Honour, and I
19 will [Overlapping speakers] ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... I could look it up. Let
21 me see whether I can do it right away.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was, Mr. Groome, Prosecution reply to
24 Defence response to Prosecution 92 ter motion RM145. And you already
25 included in this reply that you were of a different opinion as to whether
1 the statement included inappropriate opinion or expert evidence, and you
2 more or less repeated in that reply the position the Chamber had
3 expressed in various decisions.
4 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. We'll await your decision
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, we -- it's hereby put on the record that
7 your request for leave to reply is granted.
8 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]...
10 MR. GROOME: I meant to await the decision on the underlying
12 JUDGE ORIE: The underlying application was to have admitted into
13 evidence this statement of Witness RM145, which has been done.
14 MR. GROOME: Oh. I'm sorry, I'm confused. I think I need a
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'll have a break.
17 Unless there's any other procedural matter at this moment, I
18 would like to take a break until quarter past 1.00 and then resume for
19 one more hour.
20 We'll take that break now.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.56 p.m.
22 [The accused entered court]
23 --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, are you ready to, once the witness is
25 back in court, to resume the examination -- I'm sorry, I have to address
1 the Defence. I needed a break as well.
2 Is the Defence ready to continue the cross-examination of
3 Mr. Selak?
4 Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
5 Mr. Lukic, we left off during the last hearing with a matter
6 about whether the witness had to answer a question, yes or no. I'll
7 first deal with that matter before we continue.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Selak.
10 WITNESS: OSMAN SELAK [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, I would like to remind you that you're
14 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of
15 your testimony.
16 And before I give an opportunity to Mr. Lukic to resume his
17 cross-examination, I will give a decision by the Chamber on whether or
18 not you had to answer a certain question.
19 A question aiming at enabling the examining party to obtain
20 further information which it wishes to use for further investigation or
21 exploration of the matter at stake can be relevant. The Chamber
22 considers that the names of other members of the resistance staff in
23 Banja Luka over which the witness said he was elected as commander in the
24 middle of July of 1992 as a lead to further investigate or explore the
25 mistrust the Serbian side may have had of the witness is of hardly any or
1 no relevance to the determinations the Chamber will have to make in this
3 The Chamber has considered in this respect that the witness was
4 elected only when he had retired or was about to retire from what had, by
5 then, become the Army of Republika Srpska. The concern of the witness
6 for the other members of the group would, in itself, be no reason not to
7 answer questions that are put to him but an obligation to answer only
8 exists if those questions are sufficiently relevant. The question put by
9 Mr. Lukic is not.
10 And now I address you, Mr. Selak. The Chamber allows you, as you
11 may have heard by now, the Chamber allows you not to answer the question
12 that was put to you. But please keep in mind that the Chamber determines
13 whether or not you have to answer a question and whether or not such
14 answer can be given in private session. You may address the Chamber on
15 these matters, but it is not for you but for the Chamber to decide on the
16 concerns you may have.
17 This concludes the decision of the Chamber.
18 Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, please proceed.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Colonel Selak.
21 A. Good day.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please briefly see document
23 P249 on the screen.
24 Q. While waiting for it to appear, Colonel, the document is a map, a
25 sketch made by an officer from the 1st Krajina Corps. Now with regard to
1 the first map that we have, you mention the names of the towns where
2 members of the 1st Krajina Corps were deployed, and we're dealing with
3 the 18th of May, 1992, which is what it says here.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. At the time, were there any Croatian units present in
6 Bosanski Brod?
7 A. I personally do not know, but it was possible because
8 Slavonski Brod is nearby. I didn't have precise information, but the
9 corps command would probably have discussed such an issue at the meetings
10 that it held. I'm not sure but it's possible because the border with
11 Croatia is located there, and I assume that the units entered
12 Bosanski Brod and Slavonski Brod.
13 Q. Does this also go for Derventa which is to the south of
14 Bosanski Brod?
15 A. There were no Croatian units in Derventa. My opinion is that
16 there were no Croatian units in Derventa. That is what I'm claiming.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you avoid to speak simultaneously. If
18 Mr. Lukic intervenes in your answer, it may be because he has -- he
19 considers that he has already received an answer to the question and
20 wants to stop you. Then you should carefully follow Mr. Lukic. He is
21 the one who is in -- conducting the examination.
22 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed. But don't speak at the same time.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. As far as you know, you can see Doboj. It's even further to the
25 south from Derventa, and it's about 70 kilometres from the border with
1 Croatia. At the time, did you have any knowledge according to which
2 Croatian army units had entered about 15 kilometres in the direction of
3 Doboj and they were staying in Bosanski Brod and Derventa and going
4 further south?
5 A. Your Honours, let me repeat what I said: I have no information
6 according to which Croatian units entered the town of Derventa and, in
7 particular, the town of Doboj because of large garrisons of the Army of
8 Republika Srpska there.
9 Q. Do you exclude that possibility or do you allow for such a
11 A. I exclude the possibility. That's the information I have.
12 Q. Fine. Thanks. Let's see the second page in this document on the
13 screen, please. Here, you spoke about the Serbs from Bosnia and the
14 Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro. And you used an X to mark a Serb from
15 Bosnia and two Xs to mark a Serb from Serbia and Montenegro. And the
16 time-frame we are talking about is after the 18th of May, 1992. People
17 from this chart were said to be members of the 1st Krajina Corps Command.
18 In the second row in large box, we can see the name Milan Tomovic,
19 colonel. Do you know that Tomovic was married with a woman -- or to a
20 woman from Banja Luka?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And then at the same level in the chart, we have Dragan Marcetic.
23 Are you aware of the fact that he is married to a Muslim women from
24 Banja Luka?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So he remained in the town where he lived with his family. The
2 following person is Miroslav Rankovic, Colonel Miroslav Rankovic. Are
3 you aware of the fact that he left the Army of Republika Srpska when a
4 corridor was created?
5 A. I don't know the date. I know that he went to Serbia, probably
6 to Belgrade. As to his reasons, I don't know what they were. He was the
7 chief of the personnel department in the corps command and personnel
8 officers regularly went to Belgrade because Belgrade would send their
9 officers in. Belgrade directly exerted an influence on the appointment
10 of officers in respective armies.
11 Q. Were people able to leave Banja Luka, go to Serbia, and do this
12 before the creation of the corridor on the 28th of June, 1992? Was it
13 possible to go?
14 A. Your Honours, at the time as commander of the logistics base, I
15 myself insisted on the creation of that corridor. It was difficult to
16 pass through because our vehicles, the vehicles the logistics base had,
17 couldn't bring in ammunition and other equipment from Serbia and
18 Montenegro. So it was essential to create this corridor, but even before
19 the corridor was created, vehicles used various routes in order to reach
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, just to avoid any confusion, if you look
22 at page 65, line 12, you said here you spoke about the Serbs from Bosnia
23 and the Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro. Now, the legend is Serbs not
24 from Bosnia and Serbs from Serbia Montenegro. At the top.
25 Now, if there's any confusion created by this legend --
1 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... on my part, at least.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon.
3 MR. LUKIC: Obviously there is. On my part, at least, there is a
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please, having been reminded of it,
6 be -- clarify it.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, this chart is in English so perhaps
9 whoever made it missed out on something.
10 The first X says Serbs who are not from Bosnia marked with one X,
11 and marked with two Xs Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro. Next to one X
12 should it say, should it read, "Serbs from Bosnia," or "Serbs who are not
13 from Bosnia"?
14 A. The first X was to mean Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina; was to
15 stand for Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina. Your Honour, could I add
16 something with regard to this issue. There is a [indiscernible]
17 important piece of information that relates to the matter.
18 Q. We have clarified this issue for the time being, and as the
19 Chamber said we'll deal with the statements later. I'd just like to go
20 through the list of these names.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak aloud. He wants
22 to consult with counsel, if there's any need to do that.
23 Then we proceed. Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Is it your testimony that Miroslav Rankovic,
3 Colonel Miroslav Rankovic, did not leave the VRS in the summer of 1992?
4 A. I'm not aware of that. I'm not sure, Your Honours.
5 Q. Thank you. The following person, Colonel Lazo Kosanovic. Is it
6 your testimony today that he did not leave the VRS in the summer of 1992?
7 He's on the chart below Rankovic.
8 A. Yes, can I see him. I personally know this colonel. However, I
9 did not communicate with him after my hand-over of duty as commander of
10 the logistics base. I would see him in Banja Luka, but I don't know the
11 exact dates. The chart changed. People were appointed to other duties.
12 As to where they went -- as to whether they remained within the VRS, I do
13 not know. But I'm claiming there were very few officer who left the Army
14 of Republika Srpska, who left the former JNA. Only those who were to go
15 into retirement.
16 Q. The next box we have, the big one, in the first line - it's the
17 first one to the left - it says Colonel Ratko Simic. Is it your
18 testimony today that this colonel did not leave the VRS in the summer of
20 A. I don't think he did.
21 Q. Would it refresh your memory if I said that Novica Simic took
22 over his duties, was appointed to this position?
23 A. Yes. But I don't think what position Ratko Simic was appointed
24 to. I left and -- well, if you had asked me at the time, perhaps I could
25 have answered.
1 Q. So you don't know whether he left or did not leave?
2 A. I'm not sure, so I can't say.
3 Q. Very well. The next person, the second one on the right from
4 Simic in the same row, it's Celeketic, Colonel Celeketic. Is it your
5 testimony today that he did not leave Republika Srpska in the summer of
6 1992 after the corridor had been opened?
7 A. Colonel Celeketic. I have to think about this. I don't think he
8 did. Perhaps in the Autumn, but he did not leave in the summer. I was
9 performing my duties up until the 10th of July, and after that date I
10 didn't move around town that much afterwards. I don't think he left in
11 the course of the summer. He was the commander of the 16th Brigade in
12 the Kozara barracks.
13 Q. Sir, according to what you can remember, he left in the Autumn
14 not the summer of 1992?
15 A. He probably -- he had probably fulfilled the conditions for going
16 into retirement so he left then.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: What -- Mr. Selak, what is Colonel Celeketic's
18 first name?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Celeketic. It's not Rade.
20 I don't know. I can't remember.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I also would have one question in trying to
22 understand - Mr. Lukic, sorry to interrupt - this chart. We have two
23 categories, a Serb, as we now understand from Bosnia, and a Serb from
24 Serbia Montenegro. Now we also find a lot of boxes with names but
25 without any indication. Does that mean that they are not Serb, or does
1 it mean that they are Serbs but not from Bosnia and not from Serbia
2 Montenegro? For example, Serbs from Croatia. Or -- how do I have to
3 interpret the boxes where no indication is given, as we find it in the
4 legend? For example, General Talic. He is not marked as a Serb from
5 Bosnia. He is not marked as a Serb from Serbia Montenegro. What does
6 that mean? Or would you not know? It's a bit unclear to me.
7 Mr. Selak, could you clarify, especially the empty boxes.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I took part in making
9 this schematic. This is a mistake. Because Momir Talic, the late
10 Momir Talic, unfortunately, it is a well known thing that he is from
11 Bosnia, from Bosanska Krajina. And it's probably my mistake and the
12 mistake of the team that worked on this. People knew exactly who came
13 from where. So it's just a mistake in making the diagram. Talic is from
14 the area of Banja Luka, as a matter of fact from Bosnia.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you similarly also know where
16 Colonel Vukelic came from or Colonel Stevilovic? Or all those who are
17 without any marking as to their origin, does that mean that you are aware
18 but that it's just forgotten to put it in the chart? And I'm not asking
19 you to go through every single person, but ...
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically, Colonel
21 Radivoje Tomanic is from the area of Brcko from Bosnia-Herzegovina. My
22 mistake when making this. Gojko Vojnovic is also from
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I don't know exactly from which town or village but
24 also from Bosnia-Herzegovina. Stevilovic I think is from Serbia. But
25 that's a mistake, Your Honour. I'm not sure I can give a specific answer
1 to this question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps for some you would know, for others you
3 would not know. But it's not reflected in the chart.
4 Mr. Groome, of course this sheds some light on the usefulness of
5 a chart where half of the information is left out.
6 MR. GROOME: I -- I accept that, Your Honour. And perhaps maybe
7 the best thing to do would be to limit its probative value to the
8 organisation of the different people and the positions they held if
9 that's what the witness is -- all he is able to verify.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You would say apart from background, yes.
11 MR. GROOME: I think probably, and I can do it on re-direct, just
12 explore with the witness whether he is certain about the positions they
13 held and their relationship to each other. If I -- it seems that at this
14 point there is a lack of clarity on ethnicity.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see that. And then last question still about
16 this. At the bottom of the chart, we see the commander of the
17 Derv. Brigade which I take it is the Derventa Brigade. Is that
18 understood? And is that -- U/K major, does that mean that it's an
19 unknown person which held the rank of major? I mean unknown to you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes, a major.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Of whom you do not know the name, is that correctly
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I forgot it. Your Honour, may
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I've clarified a few matters in relation to
1 the chart.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps it could be zoomed in a bit so the
3 witness can see it better.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Yes, well, Mr. Selak, if at the end of your testimony important
6 matters have been left out, you will have an opportunity to add them.
7 But at this moment, I would prefer that Mr. Lukic puts his next question
8 to you.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear to me.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Let me just ask you one more thing: Colonel Nikola Obradov is
13 registered here quite clearly. Did he stay on after the summer of 1992
14 as a member of the Army of Republika Srpska?
15 A. I knew him personally. He was the commander of the rocket
16 brigade, the only one in the former Yugoslavia. While I was commander he
17 had stayed on --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You start telling us about the rocket brigade,
19 et cetera. The question simply was whether he stayed after the summer of
20 1992 as a member of the army. Could you please focus your answer on that
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, yes.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Would it jog your memory if I were to tell you that he was
25 replaced by Rapajic?
1 A. No. No, I'm not sure. I don't know the date when it was. There
2 was a replacement. Now, was it 1992 or later? I'm not sure. There were
3 a lot of transfers among the officers.
4 Q. Your testimony today, are you sure -- are you not sure that he
5 stayed after the summer of 1992 as a member of the 1st Krajina Corps or
6 the Army of Republika Srpska in general?
7 A. He was not a member of the corps in Banja Luka. Rather, he
8 was --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Both speakers are speaking
10 at the same time. We cannot discern what is being said.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you speak at the same time, we do not have double
12 information but we have no information at all. So try to avoid that.
13 And, Mr. Selak, try to focus on the question.
14 Now, apparently the issue was, and -- yes. Whether that -- and
15 I -- even the name is lost.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
17 Q. Mr. Nikola Obradov, was he a member of the Army of
18 Republika Srpska after the summer 1992? You said yes; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, briefly, this
22 chart is not proper. Not even in terms of which Serbs from Serbia and
23 Montenegro were members of the Army of Republika Srpska after the opening
24 of the corridor on the 28th July 1992, and it's not good in terms of
25 showing which persons held which particular position in the Army of
1 Republika Srpska at that point in time because we see that quite a few of
2 them had left. We are going to prove that very easily. That can easily
3 be seen from the personnel records. So at this point in time we object.
4 Since we now had time to check this, at this moment we do object to the
5 veracity of this piece of evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: There are two matters. The first is what
7 happened -- yes, Mr. Groome.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I rise only to say that this is
9 something that clearly the Prosecution has been willing to enter into
10 discussions with to agree to for many months, in particular with respect
11 to the expert Richard Phillips. The only thing really that is a matter
12 there is the organisational chart, so I think I renew my invitation to
13 Mr. Lukic to sit down. We have military analysts, he has people that can
14 he check for the information. I'm sure it's something that we could
15 agree on, an accurate chart of the organisation of the VRS.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would be the second of my observations.
17 The first one is questions are put did he stay after the summer or did he
18 stay after this moment or that moment. The chart reads officers --
19 "offices," I take it that should be "officers," and senior officers of
20 the VRS 1st Krajina Corps, after the 18th of May, 1992.
21 Now, today is after the 18th of May of 1992. But I do not expect
22 that this chart expresses the situation of today. So therefore, in order
23 to understand it and to also understand whether its inaccurate or not, it
24 may be relevant to know who stayed after the 18th of May but also how
25 long he stayed and without an end date or without further dates. And
1 here and there we have a bit of a date. For example, for Stevilovic, it
2 says 06/92 --
3 MR. LUKIC: He was killed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: He was killed. Okay. That's clear that --
5 MR. LUKIC: That's fine.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that's not clear for us, of course.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Killed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It just gives a -- it just gives a date. He could
9 have married on that day or he would have resigned or -- I mean, why --
10 the Chamber, of course, wants to --
11 MR. LUKIC: Of course.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- understand the evidence. And, Mr. Lukic, again
13 I'm primarily addressing at this moment Mr. Groome, but at the same time
14 questions to be put about what happened in the summer, whether that
15 contradicts the chart, is very difficult to establish because the chart
16 doesn't given any further information as the --
17 I just want the parties to keep this in mind. Both when
18 supporting or when criticizing the chart.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, can I just add that I think some of the
20 confusion is this witness left in the middle of the summer and I think it
21 might reduce the confusion if we're -- if the question is posed
22 whether -- while he is there or does he have knowledge about what
23 happened after he left. I think that may reduce some of the confusion.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Again, middle of the summer. I do understand that
25 the witness left mid-July. If that's the middle of the summer, then it
1 could be more precise. But I just share with you my concerns in how we
2 should understand and interpret this piece of evidence.
3 My second observation would have been is there no possibility to
4 agree on most it. But that is already raised by Mr. Groome.
5 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Why I am challenging -- sorry, I have to come back to this issue.
8 Why I am challenging this chart is because the -- one of the main points
9 of this witness's testimony is that Serbs from Serbia stayed in the VRS
10 and it still remained part of JNA. So the same army. And we exactly
11 showed, and we will show, that it's not true.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then we're looking forward to that evidence and that
13 challenge to the chart.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Could we now please go on dealing with
17 paragraph 61 of your statement.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecution please provide
19 the witness with a copy of the statement.
20 [In English] To the witness. Yeah, that's fine.
21 Q. [Interpretation] In this paragraph, Colonel, have you found it?
22 Paragraph 61. In it, you say:
23 "At that point in time, in Bosnia-Herzegovina" -- or, rather, "in
24 the Bosnian Krajina there was no Bosniak or Croat army." That's what you
25 say. "Hence it is not possible that the prisoners in Manjaca camp had
1 been arrested during military combat."
2 My question is as follows: Is it your testimony today that in
3 Krajina there wasn't any armed conflict?
4 A. No, Your Honours. There were armed conflicts because in
5 municipalities in Bosanska Krajina units were formed to protect the
6 people. There were hunting guns there and also weapons were bought from
7 Serb neighbours, because they had received it from members of the JNA. I
8 have a document to that effect. How many weapons were distributed by the
9 JNA and by the SDS to the Serb people. As a matter of fact, they would
10 write in big capital letters "Srpska" on houses because -- because
11 weapons were distributed at night.
12 Q. If I ask you what time it is and you say to me it is Wednesday
13 today, that is not an answer to my question. You really have to focus on
14 what it is that I am asking. I'm not saying that your information is not
15 correct, but please focus on my question and answer that.
16 A. But the army did not exist as such, the Army of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the territory of Bosanska Krajina. There was only
18 groups that organised resistance in municipalities and local communes in
19 order to protect themselves.
20 Q. All right. That is what you claim when say that there was no
21 army in the territory of Bosanska Krajina?
22 A. That was covered by the Banja Luka Corps with the exception of
24 Q. All right. It's clearer now. You mean that --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we please have the document P244 on the
1 screen. It would help all others --
2 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Yes, yes, yes.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Let us now move onto paragraph 63 of your
4 statement, please. This is what you say. Reported signed by
5 Lieutenant-Colonel Stanimir Djurovic, dated the 1st of June, 1992.
6 "In Prijedor, Kljuc, and Sanski Most, our units successfully
7 conduct the mop-up of the terrain without encountering any strong
8 resistance and capturing large numbers of both the paramilitary rank and
9 file." In parenthesis it says about 7.000 so far.
10 In the very next paragraph your comment is as follows. So this
11 is paragraph 64, you say:
12 "This report is of interest because there could not have been
13 7.000 paramilitaries there. It is my belief that they were civilians."
14 My question: At the time, did you go to these areas that are
15 described in this report, Prijedor, Kljuc, Sanski Most?
16 A. I did not go but I did have information from my co-workers and
17 friends and also documents.
18 Q. Just a moment. Which friends? What information?
19 A. Friends from Banja Luka, officers as a matter of fact. Because I
20 stayed on in Banja Luka, I continued to live there, and my colleagues,
21 officers, Serbs --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Which officers told you this?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Again, Mr. Selak, the last question was whether you
1 went there, I think. That was the previous question. Did you go to the
2 area? You said I did not go. That's an answer to the question. Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And then you started telling other things. Well, if
5 Mr. Lukic would be interested, then he would ask you for that.
6 Now, then Mr. Lukic asked you what -- which friends, what kind of
7 information? And then you said friends from Banja Luka, officers as a
8 matter of fact. That's an answer to the question. And then you say
9 because I stayed in Banja Luka, I continued to --
10 The question was: Which friends, what information. Yes? Could
11 you please resume your answer there. Which friends? By category or by
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Friends, Serbs, officers,
14 colleagues of mine who lived and worked in Banja Luka.
15 JUDGE ORIE: What information did you receive from them?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked about the
17 situation in terms of combat operations, when the war would be over, what
18 all of this was leading to, and as friends and colleagues and patriots
19 they told me what their opinions were and what was happening in
20 Bosanska Krajina and, in particular, in the Banja Luka Corps. That is
21 the information that I had. And I trusted them.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question was very specific about the
23 number of troops. What did they say about numbers? Numbers of
24 paramilitaries? Did they say anything specific about that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, they did not say that
1 specifically. However, I analysed after the war the combat operations as
2 they evolved in municipalities, and we came to certain conclusions in the
3 Institute for War Crimes --
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you there. Because my question
5 was, did they say anything specific about that. Your answer was: They
6 did not say that specifically. That's an answer to the question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: If I was really interested to know --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- how you nevertheless came to certain figures, I
11 would ask you. And we'll see what Mr. Lukic further wants to ask you.
12 Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. So these colleagues of yours at that time did not tell you about
15 any numbers, and we'll also deal with the subject of arming these areas
16 because you claim to know the numbers of personnel and weapons. Let me
17 ask you now: Did you take part in the arming of Muslims in the area of
18 the 1st Krajina Corps?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know who it was that armed Muslims in the area of the
21 1st Krajina Corps?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Can we agree that you then cannot even speak about who had which
24 quantity of weapons?
25 A. Such information did not exist even in the corps. This is a
1 fabrication of people from these units that were cleansing these
2 municipalities of Muslims. That's the point. And that is what matters.
3 Q. Who invented this?
4 A. The people who provided information according to which there were
5 7.000 armed paramilitary troops.
6 Q. Who were these people?
7 A. Units from the VRS that covered that territory. That's their
8 report. This is a report from the corps according to which there were
9 7.000 of them. Where they did obtain that information? The Muslims
10 didn't provide it.
11 Q. How did you obtain information that there weren't that many?
12 That's what I'm asking you about.
13 A. If there had been so many of them, a unit with 4.000 men couldn't
14 have --
15 Q. This is all hypothetical. Do you have information or not?
16 That's all I'm interested in.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, again, this is not a debating club. This
18 is a court of law. Carefully listening to what Mr. Selak says is, to the
19 extent people have said that there were 7.000, I don't believe them,
20 although I myself have no direct observation of any numbers. Neither
21 were specifics given by the persons I consulted at that time about those
23 MR. LUKIC: That's enough.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's enough.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.
2 MR. LUKIC: It is, Your Honour. Thank you.
3 [Interpretation] Could we now see -- just a minute. Could we now
4 see document -- it doesn't have a number yet. 09041 is the number.
5 [In English] One minute.
6 Q. [Interpretation] You have the document on your screen dated the
7 14th of April, 1992.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The document states that anti-army propaganda has reached
10 unprecedented dimensions. This propaganda has reached unprecedented
11 dimensions. This propaganda is led by the Party of Democratic Action and
12 Alija Izetbegovic personally. Yesterday you agreed that some political
13 parties, not all of them, were active against the JNA. Is it true that
14 some of the active-duty officers moved over to the Territorial Defence of
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina at that point in time, as early as then?
16 A. Yes. Because the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had been
17 established in March 1992. It had been recognised by the international
18 community and the JNA was a foreign force occupying the territory of
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
20 Q. So you, too, at the time felt as if you were a foreign force
21 occupying the area?
22 A. Understand this as you will, but I remained a patriot in respect
23 of all three peoples. Not just one.
24 Q. Was it logical to expect that the JNA could immediately leave
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina at the same time that Bosnia and Herzegovina had
1 been declared to be an independent state?
2 A. Yes, Your Honours. The JNA units in Bosnia and Herzegovina were
3 renamed the Army of Republika Srpska on the 18th of May, 1992 - all of
4 the units - and they remained present in the areas that they had
5 previously occupied.
6 Q. I have already asked you about this and you have answered my
7 question. You said that the local people were now in those units. The
8 young men doing their military service who weren't from Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina left the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you
10 confirmed this?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So whether a unit is called this way or that way, whether it
13 changes its name or not, it doesn't matter. But the fact is that instead
14 of a soldier, a 19-year-old soldier who came from Belgrade, there was a
15 45-year-old man from Prijedor who took his place; is that correct?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, whether a unit is called this way or that
17 way, whether it changes its name, it doesn't matter, or didn't matter.
18 But the fact is that's not questions. That is argument.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: And then at the very end you asked do you agree with
21 me. Take it proposition by proposition, and then clearly ask the witness
22 what you'd like to hear from him. And apart from that, if you say, It
23 doesn't matter, and if you say, Do you agree with me, then you are
24 asking, you're inviting the witness to say whether something matters or
25 not. Well, that's not for a witness of fact to answer. So therefore
1 try -- I do understand it's not easy. Let me say this as well. But try
2 at least.
3 MR. LUKIC: I will, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- to keep it organised.
5 MR. LUKIC: I will do my best.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. LUKIC: I don't know if it's enough, but I will do my best.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I did not criticise you for not doing your best but
9 I'm trying to assist you in performing your duty.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
13 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, let me ask you the following: Is
14 it true that the units of the former JNA changed their names?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is it true that the units of the former JNA changed their troops?
17 I'm not talking about the officers. We have already discussed who
18 remained and who left. But did the troops, the soldiers, change?
19 A. Only partially. A small number of them.
20 Q. A small number of soldiers, of privates, in the VRS?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. So all those soldiers from the VRS who were over 23 or 24 years
23 of age had previously been in the JNA in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
24 A. Yes. They were in the JNA.
25 Q. A 45-year-old man from Banja Luka served in the JNA, from
1 Banja Luka?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. My son had -- was 20 years old and he did his regular military
5 service in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He was from Bosnia.
6 Q. I'm asking you about people over the age of 23 or 24.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. They also did their regular military service?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Someone who was 45 years old did his military service, his
11 regular military service in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time?
12 A. Not at that time. There was a mobilisation later. Let us
13 understand each other. When there was a mobilisation, everyone up to the
14 age of 60 had to report to military units.
15 Q. Very well. We'll return to this document that we have before us
16 dated the 14th of April, 1992. Is it true that entire staffs of the
17 Territorial Defence went over to the side of the Army of Bosnia and
19 A. No, not entire staffs.
20 Q. The entire staff, for example, in Visoko, in Konjic, did these
21 staffs move over to the side of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
22 A. Yes, because this was covered by the ABiH, so Croats and Bosnians
23 responded. There were also Serbs who were members of the Army of Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina.
25 Q. Is it correct to say that military facilities at that time - on
1 the 14th of April, 1992 - were targets in Bosnia and Herzegovina? I'm
2 not only referring to the 1st Krajina Corps. We know that wasn't the
3 case there. Were military facilities targets for attacks? Do you have
4 any such information? Was this the case in certain parts of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina where the Muslim inhabitants were in the majority?
6 A. Yes, there were such acts because the former JNA was on the side
7 of Republika Srpska. So it was a revolt and there were such activities,
9 Q. And were military facilities in Croatia also attacked before
10 these attacks?
11 A. I'm not sure. I assume that that is possible but I'm not
12 certain, so I can't answer your question precisely.
13 Q. At the time on the 14th of April, 1992, did the JNA attack the
14 Muslims or Croats in any part of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
15 A. I don't have any such information, so I couldn't answer that
17 Q. At the time were flats of members of the JNA in Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina also attacked? Were military personnel arrested, taken
20 A. Well, people would abandon their flats, flee from the territory
21 covered by the armija. Covered by the Federation right now. At the time
22 it was Bosnia and Herzegovina. Officers, citizens, Croats, and Serbs
23 would flee. They would exchange positions or, rather, their places of
24 residence. Your Honours, I have a document. In Banja Luka there was an
25 order according to which Muslims from the Crisis Staff had to leave
1 Banja Luka and they weren't allowed to return to their flats. So this
2 certainly took place in other areas as well, but I don't have any precise
3 information as to where, to what extent, and at what time such things
5 Q. On page 2 in the B/C/S version, under number 1, we can see what
6 was insisted on in the JNA at the time.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that it is also page 2 in the
8 English version, item 1.
9 Q. [No interpretation]
10 JUDGE ORIE: We receive no interpretation at this moment.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. The microphone was
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
14 Q. Under number 1 it states:
15 "Maintain unity of the army, especially of officers. Talk openly
16 with all JNA members."
17 I'll start again.
18 "Maintain unity of the army, especially of officers. Talk openly
19 with all JNA members."
20 In brackets it says AVS and GL. It means active-duty officers
21 and civilians.
22 "We don't want any vacillation or treachery. Everyone should
23 make clear where he stands beforehand, and it should be stated clearly
24 that the army was brutally attacked and had not done anything to harm any
25 of the peoples."
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would just rise to -- it would -- I
3 think -- I believe it would be more appropriate for the witness to be
4 asked to give abbreviations rather than for Mr. Lukic to provide evidence
5 of that.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. We'll first clarify this up. My colleague is quite right. Could
8 you first tell us what AVS stands for and what GL stands for?
9 A. AVS means active-duty officer and GL means civilian personnel.
10 This is in reference to the JNA --
11 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to that at this moment. We have to leave
12 it to that, Mr. Lukic.
13 Mr. Selak -- could you give us an indication, Mr. Lukic, as to
14 how much time you would still need tomorrow?
15 MR. LUKIC: Definitely at least the whole day tomorrow. I don't
16 know if we have some time, and I think that we do, on Friday -- I might
17 take some time from Friday, as I announced seven hours for this witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No further witnesses available for this week,
19 Mr. Groome?
20 MR. GROOME: There is, Your Honour. One more witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: There's one. One. And that witness would take?
22 MR. GROOME: It's -- I don't have the estimates in front of me,
23 but it's --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I'll look at the estimates.
25 MR. GROOME: It'll be one of the shorter witnesses, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Mr. Lukic, let's try not to lose ourselves in debates and let's
3 try to elicit evidence the witness can really provide to us. I will try
4 to assist you.
5 Mr. Selak and Mr. Lukic, addressing both of you, I was close to
6 the point, which did not often happen during my years in this Tribunal,
7 where I would be the traffic light; that is, no one speaks unless I've
8 given permission. That is stop to this, stop to that, like a traffic
9 policeman, saying, You can now drive. We're close to that point. I just
10 want to inform both of you. And please keep that in mind and try to
11 avoid that I have to serve here as a traffic police officer rather than a
12 careful listener to what the evidence is about.
13 Mr. Selak, I would like to again instruct you that you should not
14 speak with anyone about your testimony, whether already given or still to
15 be given, and also not to communicate in any other way about that.
16 We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow, Thursday, the
17 27th of September, 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, I. But
18 the witness may first leave the courtroom.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of
24 September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.