Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3218

 1                           Friday, 28 September 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             The Chamber was informed that both parties have preliminaries.  I

11     think the Defence wanted to move into private session for the

12     preliminary.

13             Mr. Lukic, we move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

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Page 3219

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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

25             Mr. Groome.

Page 3220

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, first I was going to tender the letter

 2     of the witness's son which Mr. Lukic spent quite a bit of time with

 3     yesterday.  It's 65 ter 18349.  But when I discussed this with Mr. Lukic,

 4     he expressed that it was his intention to tender it, so if he does that

 5     now I'll have no objection.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  No objections.  Of course, we wanted to tender it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You want to tender it.  Let's then deal with that

 8     first of all.

 9             65 ter 18349 would receive what number, Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D53, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D53 is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the next matter is the Prosecution at

13     this time would tender 65 ter 28432.  This is the chart containing

14     Mr. Selak's observations of eight documents.  And Your Honours, the 65

15     ter numbers those documents is contained on the chart itself.

16             Your Honour, this past Tuesday, at transcript page 2963, the

17     Chamber expressed concern over this chart and what the Chamber termed as

18     creativity of the Prosecution which might lead to a situation that the

19     Chamber wanted to avoid.  Although the Chamber was not explicit about its

20     concerns, I understood the Chamber to be referring to its previously

21     expressed concern of large numbers of unnecessary or marginally relevant

22     documents.  I would like to address the Chamber's concern in the context

23     of this exhibit.

24             There were 34 documents the Prosecution considered using with

25     this witness.  An examination of the previous testimonies of Mr. Selak

Page 3221

 1     reveals additional exhibits which would meet the legal test of relevance.

 2     The Prosecution selected eight of the most directly relevant ones for

 3     admission through a proposal that the Defence accepted as a fair way to

 4     deal with the exhibits and I think was clearly a more efficient way to

 5     adduce the evidence of military documents which largely speak for

 6     themselves.

 7             Document 1 is a JNA 5th Corps report dated the 14th of May, 1992,

 8     a week of importance in this trial.  The document sets forth the state of

 9     the command and control structures in what would soon become the

10     1st Krajina Corps.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, if would you allow me one second.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, the Chamber mainly expressed some

14     concerns in a more general way about a possible development of the

15     procedure.  The Chamber is not seeking at this moment a justification for

16     each of these documents.  Unless the Defence would object to them, of

17     course, then we'd like to hear further explanation.

18             But at this moment the Chamber is - and you have understood that

19     well - is concerned that -- and we didn't say that you had flooded the

20     Chamber.  I think even at the time when it happened we did not know even

21     how many documents would be on the chart.  I'm not quite certain about

22     the time -- moment in time.  But at this moment, also knowing now the

23     number involved, we are not assisted by a full explanation at this

24     moment.  If it comes in the near future to similar situations, it might

25     be that we would like to receive further justification.

Page 3222

 1             MR. GROOME:  If now is not a convenient moment for the

 2     Prosecution to make these submissions, I accept that.  I would make a

 3     request to be able to address the concerns of the Chamber.  It is a

 4     matter of some importance to the Prosecution and in -- so at a time when

 5     the Chamber is prepared to hear these submissions, I would ask that we do

 6     it, and I recognise there is a witness here waiting to be called.

 7             But if it doesn't assist the Chamber at this time, I will not

 8     insist upon making my submission at this moment.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The submissions you made until now, for this

11     instance, Mr. Groome, satisfies the Chamber.  And if you want to address

12     the matter in a more general way in the near future, you will have an

13     opportunity to do so.

14             MR. GROOME:  Or if at any time the Chamber has this concern, I'm

15     prepared to answer it at any time.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That's then --

19             MR. GROOME:  So Your Honour, that just leaves us with the matter

20     of the tendering of that chart and the underlying exhibits.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, which was announced to be done at the end

22     of the examination of the witness.

23             Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             Our understanding of this chart is only to give the opportunity

Page 3223

 1     to the witness to confirm authenticity or not and it's not, in our

 2     understanding, something that should lead to -- to tender these

 3     documents.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that was clear on from the beginning.

 5             I think that we said that we would decide on the admission of the

 6     chart and the documents at the end of the testimony.

 7             I'll check that in the transcript, but I would be surprised if I

 8     said anything else.  And apart from that, the witness, of course, gave in

 9     the chart his comments as well.  I mean, what's the use of hearing the

10     comments of the witness if the underlying document is not accessible, is

11     not in evidence?

12             MR. LUKIC:  In our -- our position is that he would then be shown

13     the documents and tell us about the documents.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  He has reviewed the documents and the instructions

15     in the chart clearly says what he's -- what he is expected to do.  That's

16     at the top, do this, do that, do that, do that, and then write down this

17     or write down that.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if you see the chart, document number 1,

19     I'm not going to take much of your time, it says:  I have not seen this

20     document.  I'm unsure of its authenticity.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.  And that's why the box

22     authentic or non-authentic is not ticked, as a matter of fact, whereas it

23     is for others.  But the witness here says, I cannot say anything about

24     the authenticity of this document.  He didn't tick the box and he

25     explained why.

Page 3224

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Would that document be tendered then?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that is tendered by Mr. Groome, and

 3     whether we will admit it or not depends on our decision and what --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you look at that box, you would realise that

 7     the witness also did not initial it.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I meant by --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But the others that he --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Others have initials.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Others are initialed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That means that this witness in relation to this

18     document cannot tell us anything about the authenticity.  And if you want

19     to challenge the admission on the basis of authenticity, of course, you

20     can do so.  And the Chamber would then have to rely on your submissions,

21     Prosecution submissions, and any other indications of authenticity,

22     because the witness cannot help us.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             Then, first, the chart, in the understanding now, Mr. Lukic, and

Page 3225

 1     I'll check whether I said admission -- about admission.  Any objections

 2     against the chart?

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             MR. LUKIC:  No objections against the chart.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, if I could seek your assistance because

 6     I don't have the chart here.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have a spare -- I have two spare

 8     copies so I can either --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you take them --

10             MR. GROOME:  I could spare one or I can go one by one.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If you take them one by one, if you mention the

12     number we'll hear from -- and briefly say what it is, and then we'll hear

13     from Mr. Lukic whether there are any objections.

14             The first one.

15             MR. GROOME:  Is 65 ter 16015.  It's an order of the 5th Corps

16     issued on the 14th May, 1992.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.  If you want to say -- if you're not

18     prepared, then we'll leave it for later this morning so that can you make

19     up your mind, because apparently you were not expecting the underlying

20     documents to be tendered.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, I would kindly ask Your Honours to give me some

22     time and prepare.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, at this moment, we'll not deal with the

24     underlying exhibits and only deal with the chart itself where there were

25     no objections against admission.

Page 3226

 1             Mr. Registrar, the chart would receive number?

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P259, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P259 is admitted into evidence.  And we'll deal with

 4     the underlying documents at a later stage.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Any other preliminary matters.

 7             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  The Prosecution is prepared to

 8     call the next witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the Chamber has another matter which it

10     would like to raise.

11             Which is the following.  And, Mr. Lukic, please listen carefully,

12     and, Mr. Mladic, also listen very carefully to what I'm going to say.

13             The Chamber has now, at five occasions - that means in relation

14     to five witnesses - received complaints about the behaviour of

15     Mr. Mladic.  Most recently about his behaviour of yesterday where we

16     identified three instances, one of them including an observation made by

17     Mr. Mladic that the witness lied.  In relation to five witnesses,

18     verbally or otherwise commenting, reacting to testimony.

19             This has led the Chamber to establish a new regime.  The accused

20     will not be allowed any further to consult with counsel in court.  The

21     accused may pass a little note, if needed, but silently to counsel.

22     Consultations can take place during breaks.  The accused is not allowed

23     to speak in court.  Any violation will result in the removal of the

24     accused from court.

25             This new regime has been established because, on the one hand,

Page 3227

 1     the Chamber cannot understand the words the accused speaks, audible for

 2     others; and, second, because the accused has shown that he repeatedly

 3     interfered in an unacceptable way with the witnesses, which the Chamber

 4     does not allow.

 5             Mr. Lukic, is this new regime clear to you?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Although I have to stress one thing.  Mr. Mladic

 9     writes very slowly and sometimes when we get its note it's too late or we

10     have to readdress the same issue.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all the consequence of what happened.  I

12     referred to five witnesses where we received such claims.  Some of them,

13     of course, we have dealt with already in the past.  It's a pity.  Then

14     you will be able only a few minutes after that, or after the next break,

15     to respond to that.  That is -- the Chamber would not have spontaneously

16     would have imposed this new regime.  It is because of our experience with

17     the behaviour of the accused in court that we felt that we could not do

18     otherwise in order to protect the witnesses.

19             Mr. Groome, is the Prosecution ready to call its -- yes.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution calls

21     Sulejman Crncalo.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Traldi.  We'll wait until the witness

23     arrives in court.  No protective measures.

24             MR. TRALDI:  That's correct, Your Honour.  And while the witness

25     is being called into the courtroom, Your Honour, I will reiterate from

Page 3228

 1     our filing that Mr. Crncalo's evidence does overlap with certain

 2     adjudicated facts.  We have reviewed Mr. Crncalo's 92 ter material and

 3     made redactions on the basis of facts 1679 and 1683.  We have also

 4     redacted paragraphs of Mr. Crncalo's statement which we deemed not

 5     directly relevant to the adjudication of this indictment.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the redactions do not meet any

 7     objections?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, Mr. Ivetic will cross this witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Ivetic, if there is anything in those

10     redacted paragraphs, of course, this would not prevent you from

11     addressing any matter which is found in those paragraphs.  Although the

12     Chamber is not aware of that content at this moment.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I understand that, and I believe that the

14     Prosecution has the right to prepare their statements how they want.  If

15     there's material I will address it.

16             No objection.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Crncalo.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Crncalo, before you give evidence, the Rules

22     require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out

23     to you.  May I invite you to make that declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.

25             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

Page 3229

 1     and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  SULEJMAN CRNCALO

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Crncalo.

 5             Mr. Crncalo, you'll first be examined by Mr. Traldi.  Mr. Traldi

 6     is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find him to your right.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Traldi:

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Good morning, sir.  How are you feeling this morning?

11        A.   Well, okay.

12        Q.   And if at any time you aren't, please don't hesitate to ask the

13     Chamber and ask us to take a break.

14        A.   Thank you.

15        Q.   And, sir, then could I ask you to please state your full name for

16     the record.

17        A.   My name is Sulejman Crncalo.

18        Q.   And what is your ethnicity, sir?

19        A.   My ethnicity is Bosniak, Muslim.

20        Q.   Mr. Crncalo, do you remember providing a statement to the ICTY on

21     1 November 2009?

22        A.   I do.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask the Court Officer to please display 65 ter

24     28427 on our screens.

25        Q.   And, Mr. Crncalo, now that the document is on the screen before

Page 3230

 1     us, can I ask that we go to the last page of the document?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I note they're both in English.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  I have a B/C/S hard copy with me, Your Honour.  And

 4     I'd note that now the left side of the screen reflects the B/C/S version.

 5     I apologise.  It's the next-to-last page that I'm looking for?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  In the English, I take it.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   And, sir, if you look on the right side of your screen in the

 9     bottom corner, I'd ask if you recognise the signature that you see there.

10        A.   I do, it's my signature.

11        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to read and review this statement

12     in preparation for your appearance here today?

13        A.   Yes, I have.

14             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd ask the Court Officer to please display 65

15     ter 28436 on our screens.  It is a chart of clarifications to the

16     statement which was disclosed to the Defence this week.

17        Q.   Sir, have you had an opportunity to review this document in

18     preparation for your testimony?

19        A.   I have.

20        Q.   And does it accurately set out clarifications to your statement

21     which you made during the course of preparation for your testimony?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   If I were today to ask you questions about the material in your

24     statement, would you provide the same information, in substance, subject

25     to the clarifications you have provided in this document?

Page 3231

 1        A.   I would give the same statement, the same clarifications.

 2        Q.   And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you

 3     affirm, Mr. Crncalo, that you provided the information in both these

 4     documents truthfully?

 5        A.   I provided truthful information.  I have no other information.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 28427

 7     and 28436 into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter, as public exhibits.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Traldi, has the Chamber been provided with the

12     clarifications?  Previous -- prior to coming into court today.

13             MR. TRALDI:  I believe they're in e-court, Your Honour, but I'm

14     afraid we haven't provided you a hard copy.  I apologise.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  This is a 92 ter witness.  That means that the

16     Chamber should, prior to coming to court, be informed about any changes

17     in relation to the 92 ter statement the Chamber has looked at before and

18     has considered before coming to court.  Therefore, I would like to

19     instruct the Prosecution that if any such clarifications, again not about

20     the viva voce witness, then you can present it viva voce in court.  But

21     if it relates to any 92 ter statement, the Chamber should be provided

22     with such a clarification, even if not filed then at least brought to our

23     attention in other ways.

24             Having said this, Mr. Registrar, the numbers for these two

25     documents would be?

Page 3232

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 28427 shall

 2     assigned Exhibit P260.  And 65 ter document number 28436 shall be

 3     assigned Exhibit P261.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P260 and P261 are admitted into evidence.

 5             And just for your understanding, Mr. Traldi, do you expect the

 6     Chamber to go without knowing about 65 ter numbers through the whole of

 7     the e-court in the morning to find out whether there's anything new?

 8     That would be a lack of understanding of what the Chamber is reasonably

 9     expected to do.  Especially since we have no 65 -- we shouldn't do it

10     anyhow, but certainly we could not possibly do it without even having 65

11     ter numbers.  Please proceed.

12             Mr. Crncalo, this had nothing to do with you, but Mr. Traldi will

13     now start his further examination.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour, and the clarification chart was

15     identified on the exhibit list we provided to the Chamber and the

16     Defence, but in future we'll provide you with a hard copy as well.  And

17     that e-mail was sent on 25 September at 5.24 p.m., for your records.

18             At this time, Your Honour, I would also tender the associated

19     exhibits mentioned in our 92 ter filing for this witness.  That's

20     65 ter 03665, 03736, 11113, 11114, 11115, and 11116.  As well as the

21     table of concordance for this witness labelled with 65 ter 28363.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

23             MR. IVETIC:  No objections to these, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Registrar, could you assign numbers to them one by one.

Page 3233

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 03665 shall be

 2     assigned Exhibit P262.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 03736 shall be assigned

 5     Exhibit P263.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 11113 shall be assigned

 8     Exhibit P264.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 11114 shall be assigned

11     Exhibit P265.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 11115 shall be assigned

14     Exhibit P266.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 11116 shall be assigned

17     Exhibit P267.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  And 65 ter number 28363 be assigned Exhibit P268.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

21             Mr. Traldi, I'm still looking at ... could you provide us with a

22     copy where you said it was mentioned on the list of exhibits, because we

23     have the annex A to the motion at the time, and I have another list in my

24     hands where I have difficulties to find the clarification.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour, we'll print out the e-mail and the

Page 3234

 1     list at the break, if that's convenient.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's convenient.  And if I made a mistake,

 3     then, of course, I apologise for that.

 4             Let's proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Now that the requirements

 6     of Rule 92 ter have been satisfied, I will briefly summarise

 7     Mr. Crncalo's written evidence for the record.

 8             Mr. Crncalo is a Bosnian Muslim from Pale.  He was part of a

 9     delegation which met with a member of the Bosnian Serb Presidency named

10     Nikola Koljevic in the spring of 1992.  Koljevic told the delegation that

11     the Serbs did not want Muslims living in Pale.

12             In June 1992, Radovan Karadzic gave a speech in front of the

13     Dom Kulture in Pale.  Mr. Crncalo heard Karadzic say that the best way to

14     defend Serb houses was to attack Muslim houses.  Soon afterwards,

15     Mr. Crncalo and other Muslims were forcibly removed from Pale in convoys

16     organised by the Serb authorities.  Several Muslims who refused to leave

17     the area were killed, and the three mosques in Pale were destroyed, as

18     charged in Schedule D10 of the indictment.

19             Mr. Crncalo and his family fled to besieged Sarajevo where they

20     remained for the remainder of the war.  There he lived in constant fear

21     that he and his family would be killed.  When Mr. Crncalo left home, he

22     was never sure that he would return alive or that those he had left

23     behind would be alive when he returned.  On several occasions, he saw

24     civilians killed by snipers.

25             On 28 August 1995, Mr. Crncalo's wife went to the Markale

Page 3235

 1     market-place to shop for powdered milk.  She didn't come home, so

 2     Mr. Crncalo went to search for her.  On his way, he heard about the

 3     shelling of the market-place charged in Schedule G.18 of the indictment.

 4     When he got to Markale, his wife was not there.  He looked at the

 5     hospital but didn't find his wife there either.  He then went to the

 6     morgue, where he found his wife's body.

 7        Q.   Mr. Crncalo, now that we've reviewed your written evidence, I'm

 8     going to ask several questions to clarify or expand upon that evidence.

 9        A.   Very well.

10        Q.   Mr. Crncalo, you describe in your statement a meeting with Nikola

11     Koljevic and what he said to you.  I'm going to ask you only one focussed

12     question about this meeting.  When Koljevic spoke to you and the other

13     Muslims in your delegation, what was your understanding as to whether he

14     was speaking on behalf of Serb authorities in the area?

15        A.   We first went to see the chief of the municipality, asking for

16     our safety to be guaranteed to continue living in Pale.  He sent us to

17     the police chief.  We put the same question to the chief of police.  He

18     sent us back to the head of the municipality.  And he said that he

19     couldn't guarantee our safety, and this is what the chief of the

20     municipality, the head of the municipality told us.  We then asked both

21     of them to bring in someone --

22        Q.   Sir, I'm sorry to interrupt, but may I ask you again to move

23     forward from when you spoke with the police chief and the chief of the

24     municipality to when you spoke with Koljevic, directly, and ask you

25     whether in your understanding Mr. Koljevic was speaking on behalf of the

Page 3236

 1     Serb authorities?

 2        A.   He was speaking on behalf of the Serbian authorities at the time.

 3     And he told us that the Serbs did not want to live with us.

 4        Q.   And I'm going to move now to paragraph 59 of your statement,

 5     Exhibit P260.  In the that paragraph, you say that your neighbour,

 6     Fehim Hrvo, was arrested and later killed.  Do you know where he was

 7     imprisoned?

 8        A.   He was imprisoned in an old facility -- in an old cinema, in

 9     fact, which was close to the police station.

10        Q.   Do you know if there was ever an investigation into his death?

11        A.   No.  An investigation was not conducted.

12        Q.   Okay.  And in paragraph 60 of your statement, P260, you say

13     Izet Jasarevic, Alija Jusufovic, and Nasko Smajic were also killed.  Was

14     there ever an investigation into any of their deaths?

15        A.   No.  An investigation was not launched into their deaths.

16        Q.   Next, Mr. Crncalo, I want to take you to paragraph 78 of P260.

17     In that paragraph, you say that you saw Radovan Karadzic give a speech in

18     Pale in June 1992.  What first brought you out of your house that

19     evening?

20        A.   My health is not very good, but I do smoke and in such stressful

21     situations I started smoking even more.  I didn't have any cigarettes so

22     I went to buy some cigarettes.  There was a little kiosk down by an old

23     hotel.  I went to the kiosk and there was some sort of a meeting by the

24     Dom Kulture, the cultural centre.  I know what it was about.  I won't go

25     into that.  Radovan was giving a speech at that meeting, and he said, We

Page 3237

 1     have to attack all Muslim houses, wherever they may be.  In this manner,

 2     you will be defending your own house, end of quote.

 3        Q.   And are you sure of that word, sir, that he said "all" Muslim

 4     houses?

 5        A.   I'm now telling you what I heard him say.  As to what he thought,

 6     I don't know.  But I'm telling you what I heard.

 7        Q.   So just so the Trial Chamber understands, sir, your answer is,

 8     yes, you are sure you heard him say that word?

 9        A.   I heard him, and I saw him.

10        Q.   About how far away from Karadzic were you at the time?

11        A.   Well, I would say I was about 15 metres away, give or take a

12     metre.  I can't say precisely.  All I can do is assume that that was the

13     distance.

14        Q.   And then, Mr. Crncalo, you describe in your statement being

15     forced to leave Pale and arriving in Sarajevo.

16             When you joined the convoy and other Muslims joined the convoy to

17     leave Pale, did some Muslims remain in Pale?

18        A.   Yes, they did remain.  Five families remained:  The Mutapcici

19     husband and wife; and Ramiz Kujovic and his wife Hasna; and then

20     Muharem Kujovic remained; Ziba Kadic remained; and a mother and daughter,

21     Alija Hodzas and Hajra.

22        Q.   You say in page 80 -- or, sorry, paragraph 80 of P260, you name

23     some of these people and say they were killed.  My question is:  Of the

24     Muslims you know who remained in Pale, did any of them survive the war?

25        A.   No one survived the war.  I went to the burials of some of them

Page 3238

 1     after exhumations had been carried out, but I know that Ziba Kadic didn't

 2     survive.  However, I don't know whether she died of natural causes or

 3     whether she was killed.  I couldn't say anything about that.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd ask the Court Officer now to please call

 5     P178, the municipalities map book, to the screen, and turn to page 33.

 6        Q.   While they do that, Mr. Crncalo, you singled out Ziba Kadic and

 7     said you couldn't be sure if she died of natural causes.  Does that mean

 8     you are sure that the other people were killed?

 9        A.   Yes.  Some of them were found in pieces in the municipality of

10     Pale.  That's what their son told me when he went to the exhumation.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's addition:  They were found in

12     Gornji Bare.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   And, sir, you'll see a map now on your screen labelling the

15     mosques in Pale.  Based on your memory, does the map accurately reflect

16     the position of those maps?

17             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd suggest that we zoom in a little bit for the

18     witness.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not necessary, I can see it.

20     The sites at which the mosques were located are quite clearly and

21     correctly marked.

22        Q.   And you say in your statement, sir, that you heard that after you

23     left the mosques in Pale were destroyed.  You referred to the period

24     between July and September 1992.  Who controlled Pale at that time?

25        A.   At the time, Pale was under the control of the Serbian Democratic

Page 3239

 1     Party.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And now I want to turn to your time in Sarajevo.

 3     In paragraphs 89 and 90 of Exhibit P260, you mention that you were near

 4     certain civilians who were hit by sniper fire.  Did you see either of

 5     those shootings yourself?

 6        A.   Yes.  I was personally present, and I saw the incident.  The

 7     first person who died by the Hotel Bristol was wearing jeans and a jean

 8     jacket, and I didn't know there was a sniper firing there.  He tried to

 9     cross the road and he was hit by a sniper.  He only managed to move ahead

10     a bit and fell down and there was a puddle of blood at his feet.

11        Q.   And aside from these two incidents described in your statement,

12     sir - on Brodska Street and at the Hotel Bristol - did you ever see

13     anyone else hit by gun-fire in Sarajevo?

14        A.   Yes.  I saw people being killed on television, but as for being

15     present and seeing people being killed, well, yes, in Brodska Street and

16     at the Hotel Bristol I did see such incidents.  But all the streets were

17     covered in blood, and I was continually stepping in that blood.

18        Q.   And, finally, Mr. Crncalo, I have to ask you briefly about the

19     morning of the 28th of August, 1995.

20             MR. TRALDI:  For the Chamber's and Defence's reference, this is

21     discussed in Exhibit P260, starting at paragraph 94.

22        Q.   First, sir, had you been to Markale market yourself during your

23     time in Sarajevo?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   When you went to the market, what kind of people would you

Page 3240

 1     usually see there?

 2        A.   Well, usually ordinary people who had nothing to live off.

 3     They'd go there to buy some food, if anyone was selling food there.  So

 4     usually it was these very ordinary people, the most ordinary people who

 5     would be there.

 6        Q.   Had you ever seen anyone there carrying a gun?

 7        A.   There were no such cases.

 8        Q.   You say in paragraph 94 of your statement that you left home that

 9     morning to look for your wife after you heard a shell.  Around what time

10     was that?

11        A.   Well, my wife was supposed to return - that's what we had agreed

12     on - about half past 10.00 or 11.00.  When she did not turn up, I had to

13     go to look for her.

14        Q.   And in paragraph 95 -- and, again, Mr. Crncalo, please don't

15     hesitate to tell the Chamber if you need a break.  In paragraph 95 --

16        A.   I'll continue now.  I went to look for her.  Halfway there,

17     others asked me where I was going.  I said I was going to Markale.  My

18     wife left.  She hasn't returned.  They said a catastrophe happened over

19     there.  I said, What happened?  They said a shell fell.  I went up there.

20     I'll never forget that image.  It will never leave me.

21             The street was covered in blood.  There were about 30 there --

22     well, that's my assessment.  But the part hit by the shell was covered in

23     blood.  There was a fence protecting pedestrians from the trams, and

24     there were body parts or, rather, parts of clothing and a footwear on the

25     fence, in the streets.  There were body parts.  The entire fence was

Page 3241

 1     covered in blood.  I observed all of this and there were people looking

 2     on from side streets.  They asked me, What are you doing?  I said, I'm

 3     looking for my wife.  There seemed to be wounded, people who were dead

 4     there.  And they put them on -- in vehicles and took them to the

 5     hospital.

 6             I went to the hospital.  I arrived at the hospital.  There were

 7     lists that had already been compiled and they were on the door.  I

 8     searched for my wife on the list.  I couldn't find her name.  Then

 9     someone turned up in a white overall and asked me whether I had had a

10     look in the morgue.  I said, No.  They said, Go there.  Maybe it was a

11     doctor.  I don't know.

12             I arrived a room and I recognised her immediately.  There was

13     seven bodies there.  My wife was the third body in that row.  The bodies

14     were the bodies of women.  It's only human to cry, and I started crying.

15     Three individuals appeared from another room and asked me, Have you

16     recognised her?  I said, Yes.  Crncalo, Pasa.  They noted this down.  I

17     went home then and told the children.

18             So that's what I saw.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, this completes my examination.  And

20     looking at the clock, I'd suggest it might be an opportune moment for the

21     break.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

23             Mr. Crncalo, we'll take a break at this moment.  Would you please

24     follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back in approximately 25 minutes

25     from now.  Yes.

Page 3242

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we take that break, first of all,

 3     Mr. Traldi, there's no need to provide the e-mail.  The e-mail was sent,

 4     as I see, by Ms. Stewart on the 25th of September at 5.24 p.m. in the

 5     afternoon.  It was even clearly indicated that 65 ter 28436 has been

 6     added.

 7             Now, perhaps for a better understanding.  Non-associated

 8     exhibits - and this is one - non-associated exhibits are exhibits that

 9     the Prosecution may use.  Now, the Chamber usually does not start

10     studying these documents.  We then have the 65 ter number, so in that

11     respect I was wrong when I said it's very difficult to do that without

12     65 ter numbers, but even with the 65 ter numbers the Chamber waits and

13     sees whether the party - and that is equally true for Prosecution and for

14     Defence - wish to use that document and wish to tender that document.

15     That's different with associated exhibits which are considered to be an

16     inherent part of the 92 ter statement.

17             Now, a -- this document, clarification, directly relates to the

18     92 ter statement, which the Chamber has reviewed, because it was part of

19     the motion, and, therefore, the Chamber rather would not find it on a

20     list of non-associated exhibits you may use.  But if it's clear that you

21     want the statement to be corrected in accordance with such a document,

22     then we should receive that document itself and not just the 65 ter

23     number.  Otherwise, the Chamber would have to start to select from your

24     non-associated exhibits which one which we think most likely you would

25     use or would not use, and that's really not how it should work.  I take

Page 3243

 1     it that the Defence takes a similar position, and expects the Chamber to

 2     do the same, in relation to exhibits the Defence may use.  We wait to

 3     look at it until you use it.  Therefore, such clarification should need a

 4     different treatment.

 5             We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I could briefly raise a matter.

11             On the 25th of September, the Prosecution has inquired about

12     changing the witness schedule in relation to the testimony of

13     Witness RM081.  I don't think that we have already received the position

14     of the Defence.

15             Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic.  Yes.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm trying to find RM081.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that the one that you said --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, yeah.  I can see.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It was -- [Microphone not activated].

21             MR. LUKIC:  So in that week we have three witnesses; is that

22     right?

23             MR. GROOME:  No.  The Prosecution sent an e-mail, and we did

24     discuss it briefly in court.  This is a person who was detained in the

25     Vlahovac school in Rogatica, and our proposal was to have him available

Page 3244

 1     to testify Friday next week if there was hearing time available.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  That's fine with the Defence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then you are -- you may proceed as

 4     suggested, Mr. Groome.

 5             And there's another matter I would like to raise in this context

 6     but I will do that later.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you are cross-examined, Mr. Crncalo,

 9     Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, I would like to put one question to you.

11             At the beginning of the examination by Mr. Traldi, you were asked

12     about a certain person, Nikola Koljevic.  Can you help me, what position

13     did this man held?  Was he -- what -- what post did he held?  Have you

14     any knowledge about that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was the deputy prime minister of

16     Republika Srpska.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That was all.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Crncalo, you'll now be cross-examined by

19     Mr. Ivetic.  You'll find Mr. Ivetic to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is a member

20     of the Defence team of the -- of Mr. Mladic.

21             Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

24        Q.   Mr. Crncalo, I would ask today that you focus your answers to be

25     directly responsive to my questions and then we'll get through this as

Page 3245

 1     quickly as possible.  Is that understood, sir?

 2        A.   I understood.

 3        Q.   And furthermore, I would ask that if something I say or ask is

 4     not clear to you, that you bring it to my attention.  Is that okay, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6        Q.   While I do appreciate everything you have gone through, I need to

 7     get to the full truth of things together with you, if you will permit me.

 8     Is that agreed, sir?

 9        A.   That's fine.

10        Q.   In that case, I will begin, sir.  First of all, just prior to the

11     break, the Prosecution counsel asked you about various mosques in the

12     municipality of Pale that you state had been destroyed.  Insofar as you

13     were gone from Pale municipality from July 1992 until the end of the war,

14     would you agree with me that you do not have independent personal

15     knowledge of how these mosques in Pale were damaged or destroyed?

16        A.   I learned after the war that the mosques in Praca and Podvitez

17     were mined.  Explosives were set up.  The one in Bogovici burnt down

18     because it was mostly made of wood.  The cemetery next to the Podvitez

19     mosque was bulldosed so that no one would know any longer where each of

20     the graves were.

21        Q.   You -- you have no information of when that was done and by whom

22     it was done, do you, sir?

23        A.   I was told that it was done by the Serb forces in 1992.

24        Q.   Let me move along to the section where you identified several

25     individuals that stayed in Pale municipality after you left and for whom

Page 3246

 1     you said that they were deceased.  I would like to focus for a moment on

 2     Ziba Kadic, whom you indicated that you were not sure of how she had

 3     become deceased --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, paragraph number?

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  That would be -- that

 6     would be the testimony that -- that we just had before the break.  I do

 7     not believe it is a separate -- I do apologise.  It is a paragraph --

 8     Ms. Kadic is not mentioned in the amalgamated statement.  She has been

 9     omitted by the Office of the Prosecutor.  She is mentioned in the last

10     paragraph of the prior statement, but the paragraph in this statement,

11     P260, is paragraph 80.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  Do I --

13             MR. IVETIC:  Which is on page 14 in the English.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Just for my understanding, you say it was

15     about a person which was -- is not in the statement and also not in the

16     testimony, is that?

17             MR. IVETIC:  He testified to her.  Her name is not in this

18     statement.  It is contained in a prior statement that the Office of the

19     Prosecutor had of this witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the Chamber is not familiar with any prior

21     statements.  The Chamber is only familiar with this statement, so

22     therefore I have to check.  Is it anywhere on the transcript of today.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Immediately prior to the break.

Page 3247

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, immediately.  Thank you.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  And perhaps to make it easier for

 4     everyone, if we could pull up 1D285, which is a copy of the statement

 5     taken by the Office of the Prosecutor on 8 June 2001 with this witness.

 6     And if we can turn to page 8 in both versions in e-court.  And while we

 7     wait for that, I can spend the time efficiently with the witness with the

 8     lead-in to this question.

 9        Q.   Sir, am I correct that you -- since returning to Pale, you have

10     been informed or advised that Ms. Ziba Kadic died after the war of

11     natural causes?

12        A.   Ziba did not see the end of the war.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we ... could we have the right page.

14             MR. IVETIC:  This does appear to be the right page, Your Honour,

15     the eighth page in both versions.

16        Q.   Sir, first of all, if we look at the English version of the

17     document that is before you, is that your signature depicted as one of

18     the three signatures on this statement?

19        A.   Yes, the first one.

20        Q.   And, sir, if you could direct your attention to the last

21     paragraph on that page.  In this statement given to the Office of the

22     Prosecutor, you identify Ms. Ziba Kadic as an individual who not only

23     stayed behind in Pale but who also was killed.  This -- this paragraph,

24     therefore, is not correct; is that correct?  Is that --

25        A.   Let me answer.  The situation as it was while I was there became

Page 3248

 1     even worse once I left.  It is impossible that she died a natural death

 2     under such conditions.  In any case, I accepted for the purposes of this

 3     Tribunal that she died of natural causes, and this is what I stand by.

 4        Q.   Fair enough, sir.  So information you received subsequent to

 5     signing this statement that is before you now on the screen caused you to

 6     change your conclusions about the manner in which she died.  You cannot

 7     exclude the possibility that these other individuals, likewise, had

 8     deaths that are different than the conclusions you draw for them; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Sir, if you find the pieces of a body in a grave, isn't that a

11     violent death?  Or Hasna Alija and Hajra were found at the Jewish

12     cemetery.  They were mother and daughter.  And you could clearly see they

13     were -- they died a violent death.

14             As for the Mutapcics, you could see on their bodies that they

15     were killed by bullets.  I attended the funerals of those people once

16     their bodies had been exhumed.

17        Q.   I would now like to move --

18             MR. IVETIC:  I'm not going to be seeking to introduce the

19     document.  The testimony of the witness is clear.

20        Q.   I would like to ask you now about some things that were unclear

21     to me from your statement, which is P260 now.

22             MR. IVETIC:  We're returning to the statement today.  And Your

23     Honours and for the Prosecution, I do have a hard copy in B/C/S which

24     might make it more easier for the witness to navigate through the same

25     with the assistance of the usher.  And after the opposing counsel has

Page 3249

 1     seen the same, I would ask that it be given to him.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we do that, I'm a bit confused by some

 3     of the answers which I would like to clarify.

 4             Mr. Crncalo, you were asked about the death of Ms. Ziba Kadic.

 5     You said the situation became worse after you left, and you say:

 6             "It is impossible that she died a natural death under such

 7     conditions."

 8             And then you said:

 9             "I accepted that for the purposes of this Tribunal that she died

10     of natural causes."

11             And you said that is what you stand by.  That seems to be

12     contradictory.  Could you tell us now whether you accept for the

13     possibility that she died from natural causes.  Is that how I have to

14     understand your testimony?  Or do you still stand by that she died not

15     from natural causes?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Ziba Kadic, I accepted that

17     she died a natural death, and I still accept that.  If it suffices, then,

18     yes, I will gladly say that she died of natural causes.  In any case, she

19     did not live to see the end of the war.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you say she died during the war, and you

21     have no personal knowledge of how she died.  Is that --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no such knowledge.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

24             Please proceed.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just ask one further question on the

Page 3250

 1     questions that were asked by the Judge.

 2             Now, you have no personal knowledge that -- of how she died.  You

 3     can therefore not say whether she was killed but neither can you say she

 4     died of natural causes, can you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say either.  I have no

 6     proof either way.  Since I can't prove she was killed, I will happily

 7     accept that she died of natural causes then.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you can't accept that.  Can you accept that,

 9     given the fact that you don't have the facts of how she died?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to accept that.  I don't

11     want to raise any doubts here.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             MR. IVETIC:

14        Q.   Sir, I'd like to ask you about paragraph 15 of your statement,

15     P260.

16             MR. IVETIC:  That is found in the B/C/S at page 5; on the

17     English, at page 3.

18        Q.   And the question I want to ask you is, there you talk about the

19     "situation returning to normal" until the end of 1991.  Now since we have

20     some paragraphs redacted from your statement, we do not have the full

21     picture of what are you talking, so let me address that with you first.

22             Am I correct that the, quote/unquote, situation you are referring

23     to here at this paragraph was actually relating to the 6 May 1991

24     celebration of St. Georges Day by Mr. Vojislav Seselj and members of his

25     party on the Romanija mountain?

Page 3251

 1        A.   Yes, it does.

 2        Q.   And is it also correct that at that time, when Mr. Seselj held

 3     this St. George Day celebration at Novakova Pecina, I believe, on the

 4     Romanija mountain, you personally saw this as a threat to the Muslim

 5     community of Pale?

 6        A.   We had to see it that way.  He went there to re-establish his

 7     Chetnik movement there.  We had to be fearful.

 8        Q.   Isn't it true, sir, that Novakova Pecina on the Romanija mountain

 9     is actually a historical landmark of the Hajduks' and later of the

10     partizan anti-fascist struggle of all Yugoslavs and had nothing to do

11     with the -- Mr. Seselj and his people known as Chetniks?

12        A.   Historically speaking, the Novakova Pecina location is such.

13     Chetniks, however, did take shelter there, whereas the partisans never

14     did.  They were never there.

15        Q.   Am I also correct that your primary concern at that time was that

16     you were concerned that the Chetniks would drink alcohol during their

17     gatherings and "then turn their anger towards our Muslim community."

18        A.   The consumption of alcohol by the people we are now referring to

19     as Chetniks was normal, regular.  They didn't do much otherwise.  A

20     person under influence has no firm control over any actions, and of

21     course we were concerned as to what would happen with us.

22        Q.   And arising out of your concerns, sir, am I correct that in

23     May of 1991 you and other Muslims from your neighbourhood organised and

24     participated in a guard watch?

25        A.   This is how it was.  That same night, Izet Smajic, my neighbour

Page 3252

 1     and I, turned our lights in front of the houses and were walking about.

 2     At 1.00, 1.30, or 2.00 in the morning, a police car pulled in.

 3     Hujido [phoen] Kadric was in the vehicle as well as the deputy chief of

 4     police, Milan Simovic.  They were touring the area and when Simovic saw

 5     me, since we used to be schoolmates, he asked me what happened, and I

 6     told him I have no idea, Seselj went up to Mount Romanija.  And he said

 7     that three municipalities were sleepless that night.  Fear nothing.  If

 8     there's anything, just give me a call.  There's no need to be afraid.  Go

 9     back to your house.  I told him, Well, I can go back in but I can't sleep

10     any longer.  That's how it was.

11        Q.   And so we can clarify, sir:  Mr. Simovic and Mr. Kadric were both

12     members of the local police in Pale.

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   One was a Serb, one was an ethnic Muslim; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And did you then abandon your guard watch and go inside your

17     house, as advised by these -- by these policemen?

18        A.   I don't know if you can call it guard watch.  But, in any case,

19     my neighbour and I were outside.  They left.  And we stayed outside.  We

20     didn't go back into our houses.

21        Q.   How many days did you stay outside on -- on this type of watch?

22     Night watch or guard watch.

23        A.   Until Seselj left.  For about a week or ten days or so.  I can't

24     be more precise.  In any case, that's when we stopped coming outside

25     during the night.

Page 3253

 1        Q.   Would you agree with me, sir, then that after Mr. Seselj's party

 2     left Pale, after St. Georges Day, that the situation that had caused this

 3     tension dissipated and was no longer in existence?

 4        A.   Of course, it was -- it became easier for all of us once he left.

 5        Q.   Is it also correct, sir, that nothing bad happened to any members

 6     of the Bosnian Muslim community arising out of this gathering and

 7     celebration for St. Georges Day; that is to say, nothing bad happened

 8     even after Seselj's meeting or rally?

 9        A.   Nothing bad happened.

10        Q.   Would you agree with me that this St. George Day celebration was

11     an annual celebration that occurred in the years prior to 1991, not only

12     at this location but throughout the former Yugoslavia?

13        A.   The religious holiday of St. Georges Day is a Serb holiday.

14     There were many families celebrating it.  Traditionally speaking, the 6th

15     of May was the gathering of the Hajduks who were mostly in forests and

16     caves where they found shelter.  During the St. Georges Day that year,

17     they visited in the Novakova Pecina location.  Seselj burst in and

18     organised something there.  I don't know what exactly.  I only know that

19     we were fearful.

20        Q.   And in each of those prior years where St. Georges Day on the 6th

21     of May had been celebrated in Pale municipality, it had transpired

22     without any negative incidents against the Muslim community; is that

23     accurate?

24        A.   Sir, it wasn't just St. Georges Day that was celebrated but many

25     other religious holidays.  Before the political parties were organised,

Page 3254

 1     people of different religions invited their friends to their religious

 2     holidays to celebrate the Bajram and Christmas and other holidays.  The

 3     situation was quite a good one.  Once the political parties took over,

 4     all of the things that we are discussing now and all of the things

 5     because of which I am here now started happening.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, is there any recording of what was said

 7     by Mr. Seselj at that occasion so that we're better able to understand

 8     whether the witness was oversensitive or whether your questions are --

 9     are suggesting something which is not realistic?  Is there any recording

10     of that?  So that the Chamber might call that as evidence so as to better

11     understand the evidence of this witness.

12             MR. IVETIC:  None was identified to us, Your Honours.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, there's a public exhibit in another

14     case at the Tribunal which is a recording of a speech Mr. Seselj gave

15     around that time.  We can review that and update the Chamber and Defence

16     further.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And perhaps I'm not -- we might be interested

18     in any video of that, but we might also, first of all, be interested in a

19     transcript of what he said, if that exists, so as to better be able to

20     understand and evaluate the evidence.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Now, after this celebration on the 6th of May, 1992, Mr. Seselj

24     and his Chetniks, as you called them, that is to say, members of his

25     radical party, they did not hold any rallies in Pale for the remainder of

Page 3255

 1     1991 or 1992; is that correct?

 2        A.   Rallies in Pale started taking place in 1991, as far as I recall.

 3     This is the first time I get a question of that sort.  It was around

 4     midsummer and late June or in July.  That's when the rallies started

 5     taking place.  There was a crisis in Kosovo and people were saying we

 6     won't give up Kosovo while carrying bottles of brandy in their hand.  One

 7     couldn't say whether they were radicals or not because mostly civilians

 8     chanted such slogans.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I would like to refresh your recollection, so we have a

10     clear and full answer, with the testimony that you gave in the Krajisnik

11     case.

12             MR. IVETIC:  This is -- this is document 1D291.  It is page 82 in

13     e-court.  And while we wait for that, this is transcript page 5369, lines

14     4 through 14, of the witness's testimony in those proceedings.

15        Q.   And, sir, I will read for you, since there is no B/C/S

16     translation of the -- of this transcript.  The question that was posed,

17     and it -- beginning like this:

18             "Q. Try to be specific here, Mr. Crncalo.  Forget the 6th of May.

19     Let's move on from the 6th of May.  When do you say that the next meeting

20     after the 6th of May of the Chetniks was held?

21             "A. I don't know.

22             "Q. And, in fact, you don't know if any further meeting was held,

23     do you?

24             "A. Between the 6th of May and the next year 6th of May, I don't

25     know whether there were any meetings of the Radical Party and these

Page 3256

 1     radical people.

 2             "Q.  And when you say the Radical Party, you mean Chetniks, do

 3     you?

 4             "A.  Yes."

 5             Sir, does this selection from your testimony in the Krajisnik

 6     proceedings comport to your recollections of the state of affairs

 7     following the 6th of May, 1991.

 8        A.   I remember clearly what things were like in the course of those

 9     days.  As for the people shouting slogans about Kosovo, there were no

10     symbols to be seen in -- so that one could say whether they were radicals

11     or not, but there were columns marching down the street shouting, We will

12     defend Serbhood.  We won't give up Kosovo.  That's how things were.

13        Q.   Before we get to -- well, let's -- let's -- before we get to

14     Kosovo, do you stand by your testimony in the Krajisnik case, which I

15     have just read to you?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Your question suggests a contradiction between the

19     two.  So do you stand by this or do you stand by that.  There is no such

20     contradiction in the wordings I just had.  So therefore, I think it might

21     confuse the witness if you make him -- although you did not literally do

22     that, but you make him choose between the two, and I think his last

23     answer explained that already.  Would you please be very precise and be

24     fair to the witness in this respect.

25             MR. IVETIC:  I will.  I'm satisfied with the way it's in the

Page 3257

 1     transcript that he has explained.  I will move on now to the second item

 2     he identified.

 3        Q.   Sir, you talked about a gathering relating to Kosovo and the

 4     conflict in Kosovo.  Am I correct this was a one-time event that occurred

 5     in 1991 in Pale?

 6        A.   I still went to work in the engines factory Famos near Koran, and

 7     I could see then that there were columns being formed twice or three

 8     times per week.  And the whole half of that year, things developed that

 9     way.

10        Q.   Is it your testimony that you were present for the rally or that

11     others told you what transpired at the rally?

12        A.   Pale is a small place.  Along the route from my house to the

13     factory, that's where columns were formed and I passed by them.  As for

14     my attendance, what would I do there?

15        Q.   Fair enough.  If we can move on to a related topic.  In

16     paragraph 18 of your statement, that's P260, page 4 in the English, page

17     6 in the B/C/S, you again are talking about 1991 and how these Chetnik

18     members did not physically mistreat you but you were affected

19     psychologically.  And you talk in your statement about how Serb Chetniks

20     were a paramilitary group with a distinct uniform.

21             And, sir, I put it to you that the only Chetniks in uniform that

22     you ever saw in Pale municipality with your own eyes are just the two

23     individuals that you saw at the petrol station who wore homemade uniforms

24     and who are referenced in your statement.  Is that accurate?

25        A.   My statement is accurate.  I stand by it.  At the time, we all

Page 3258

 1     put such people wearing arms under one hat.  As for the people you're

 2     referring to at the gas station, I could only identify them by their fur

 3     caps.

 4        Q.   And the men at the gas station that you referred to as Chetniks

 5     did not have arms; is that correct?

 6        A.   They did not have any weapons at that time.

 7        Q.   And those are the only two people you saw in Pale who you

 8     visually could identify as being Chetniks that caused all this tension

 9     for you.

10        A.   It's not because of them that this tension arose.  It arose

11     because of constant shooting from automatic weapons on the periphery of

12     Pale.  It never stopped, every night.  That's what put fear into us.

13     Hand-grenades were thrown on to the house of Bekir Jasarevic.

14        Q.   Sir, we're talking about 1991.

15        A.   Yes, yes.  Oh, sorry.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I still seek that we receive an answer.

17             You told about the two people at the gas station.  Did you,

18     around that same time, see people dressed in a similar way apart from

19     these two at a gas station?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were some not wearing a

21     full uniform, but there were some who were wearing parts of a uniform,

22     the upper part or the lower part.  But I only saw those two wearing the

23     fur hat and the -- the -- the sign of the -- skull and bones.  I didn't

24     see it on anyone else.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  These two were the only ones you saw wearing those

Page 3259

 1     hats and those skull-and-bones sign?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   At paragraph 17 of your statement, you discuss the shooting of

 6     weapons in the air for Orthodox Christmas and other holidays.  Am I

 7     correct that this is a tradition that took place every year prior to 1991

 8     as well?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you use the word "for," whereas I read

10     in the statement "after."

11             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  Let me rephrase the question.  Perhaps

12     I should cite the -- the -- the paragraph.

13        Q.   Sir, at paragraph 17, you say:

14             "I know this because from time to time, especially after Orthodox

15     Christmas and other Serb holidays, the Serbs would shoot those [sic]

16     weapons in the air.  I could hear the sound of the gun-fire and I could

17     distinguish the sound from the shooting of hunting-type weapons."

18             And my question for you, sir:  Isn't it correct that this

19     situation, the shooting of weapons after Christmas and other Serb

20     holidays, was an annual occurrence that occurred in all the years prior

21     to 1991 as well?

22        A.   Mr. Lawyer, sir, I was born in Pale, and I know very well my Serb

23     neighbours, and they know me and other Muslims.  Nobody would ever mind

24     if there was a wedding party or Christmas or any holiday, not only the

25     new year, if somebody was firing a weapon.  Nobody would mind or tell

Page 3260

 1     anyone anything.  But when the shooting goes on every night, then

 2     something is wrong.  Then there is an amount of fear and pressure created

 3     among the non-Serbs.

 4        Q.   Sir, show me in paragraph 17 where you say the shooting was every

 5     night?  I read it as saying "time to time."  Please clarify this

 6     statement that you have now made.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, there's no use of asking the witness

 8     about every night.  He said that from time to time, especially after, now

 9     that does not in any way contradict.  And the witness, if he now

10     clarifies it, he is fully entitled to do that, and then there's no use in

11     asking him to point at paragraph 17 where, of course, we all can see it

12     doesn't use the same language.

13             MR. IVETIC:  And he has testified that this truthful and

14     accurate, he's reviewed it three times in three prior trials, and now

15     he's got something different.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what is -- it's different language.  Whether

17     it's different from content, that is still to be seen.  But, of course,

18     you may further explore that matter and further ask for it.

19             By the way, I notice that I understand paragraph 16 and 17 - and

20     so do my colleagues - as primarily pointing at the type of weapons.  Not

21     primarily about that they were fired, for example, which may well be a

22     custom on these holiday, although the witness also extends this too.  But

23     the type of weapon seems to be a very important part of this -- part of

24     the statement.

25             Mr. Traldi.

Page 3261

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, just to correct an inadvertent

 2     misstatement on the record.  At page 42 of today's temporary transcript,

 3     line 16, Mr. Ivetic said Mr. Crncalo had verified the statement in three

 4     prior trials.  The statement actually post dates his Krajisnik testimony

 5     and was not used in Stanisic and Zupljanin, so it's only one prior trial.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, having listened to all this, you may

 7     proceed.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Now I want to look at paragraph 16 of your statement, which was

10     mentioned by Presiding Judge.  That's page 3 in the English and page --

11     breaks over pages 5 and 6 in the B/C/S.

12             In this paragraph, you talk about the Chetniks being armed and

13     you talk about 50, possibly more, Chetniks that went to fight in Pakrac,

14     Croatia, and kept their weapons.  I would like to have you comment upon

15     your testimony from the Krajisnik proceedings so we can better understand

16     what this paragraph means.

17             MR. IVETIC:  I would call up 1D291, pages 85 is the -- is the

18     e-court reference.  Although the section that I have will continue

19     through page 87 of the transcript.  And I'll wait for that and then I

20     will begin.

21        Q.   It starts in the middle of the page at line 14, sir, and I will

22     again read the English so that can you get the translation of the

23     transcript.

24             "Q. Is this -- this figure of 50 or about 50 that you put

25     forward, is that based on what you were told by other people or heard

Page 3262

 1     from other people?

 2             "A. Well, when I was in the company of people, of those people,

 3     coming back from those battle-fields, when they were talking amongst

 4     themselves that they were in these [sic] two parts of the battle ground,

 5     listening to them, that's what I concluded.  I didn't hear it from them,

 6     but listening to them talk, that's what I concluded.

 7             "Q. Were they people at work or people that you met in a cafe or

 8     what?

 9             "A. At work, and I don't frequent cafes much.  So at work.

10             "Q. So people from your work, is this what you say, people from

11     your work went to fight in Croatia and returned from fighting in Croatia?

12     Is that right?

13             "A. Yes.

14             "Q. In that case, presumably, Mr. Crncalo, if it's people from

15     your work, you do have a pretty firm idea of how many were involved,

16     don't you?

17             "A. Where I work [sic] in the factory, there were 3.000 people,

18     and I can't know each of those employees, all those workers.

19             "Q. At that moment, I'm suggesting to you that even among 3.000

20     employees, you would have had a pretty firm idea of how many of those

21     3.000 went to Croatia and returned from fighting in Croatia.  Is that not

22     right?

23             "A. Well, I didn't have a precise picture of it all, but that

24     [sic] what was common knowledge, at least on the shift I was working, and

25     we worked in three shifts.  In the other two shifts, there were quite a

Page 3263

 1     number of people whom I didn't know, so I don't know whether they went or

 2     not.  But the people working in my ... shift, they would say, and judging

 3     on what the other -- the men in the other ... shifts say -- but, as I

 4     say, I didn't know anybody personally, so I can't say.

 5             "Q. How many men were on your shift?

 6             "A. About 90.

 7             "Q. And how many -- was it the same people constantly, was it,

 8     broadly speaking, the same 90, not every day, but roughly speaking, it

 9     was the same group of men continuing on the same shift, month in, month

10     out, was it?

11             "A. Yes, mostly.  But you know how it was.  There would be new

12     workers coming in.  Some would retire, other young workers would come in.

13             "Q. Yes, of course, there would be changes.  That [sic]

14     understood.  How many men from your shift went to fight in Croatia?

15             "A. Three."

16             Sir, does this testimony from -- of yours from the Krajisnik

17     proceedings comport to your recollection of how many men you had actual

18     knowledge of that went to Pakrac, Croatia, from Pale municipality in

19     1991.

20        A.   Those people coming back from Pakrac, sometimes during chance

21     meetings I overheard what they were saying.  They mentioned those two

22     that you just referred to.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I think that what -- what you are trying

24     to establish is that the number the witness used for the 50 people

25     returning from Pakrac is based on not direct observation by himself but

Page 3264

 1     on the basis of hearsay and that, therefore, the number of 50 people

 2     might not be as precise as suggested in the statement.  Is that what you

 3     want to establish?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Actually, Your Honour, I believe three is the part

 5     that he knows by hearsay.  He does not know beyond three per the

 6     testimony in Krajisnik, as I read it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'm not sure that accurately

 9     characterises the Krajisnik testimony.  And the witness actually explains

10     the number 50 two pages later in the same testimony.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- okay.  Let's try to see.

12             Mr. Crncalo, in your statement, we find a number of 50 people

13     returning from Pakrac.  Have we well understood that -- that this was not

14     personal knowledge of all these persons but that you concluded that

15     approximately that number of people must have returned from Pakrac

16     because that was what discussed at your workplace and which was, as you

17     say in the statement, public secret.  So not direct observation.

18     Indirect observation.  Perhaps the number not being very precise.  Is

19     that well understood?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  You are quite

21     right.  Instead of 50, there may have been 150 who went from our

22     municipality.  But I heard about 50 from those people who returned.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You also could not exclude that there were only 20

24     or 30?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One has to be realistic.  I am not

Page 3265

 1     a military man inducting young recruits, giving them uniforms, sending

 2     them to Pakrac or elsewhere.  I couldn't know these individuals, and I

 3     couldn't know the names of each person.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, any matter you think is worthwhile to

 5     further elicit, you may do that in re-examination.

 6             Mr. Ivetic, I take it that your point has been addressed.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  It has, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.  But also, think about the

 9     break in the next couple of minutes.

10             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to finish at least this section so we have

11     at least some continuity.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. IVETIC:

14        Q.   With regard to these three people from work that went to Pakrac,

15     am I correct that they were mobilised and they responded to mobilisation

16     orders rather than volunteering?

17        A.   They were organised, mobilised, and they had received call-up

18     papers.

19        Q.   And at that time, wasn't it the legal duty of every citizen of

20     Yugoslavia that received call-up papers to respond and be mobilised by

21     the army?

22        A.   You asked that question right.  Until then, there was a law

23     prevailing in the whole territory of Yugoslavia that all able-bodied men

24     were obligated to report to the military department when called up.

25     However, during those days that we are talking about, none of the Muslims

Page 3266

 1     were called up, only the Serbs.

 2        Q.   For the time being we are talking about these three Serb

 3     colleagues from your work that went to Pakrac.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, it seems that your question addresses

 5     the possible illegality of having been called up to go to Croatia and to

 6     fight.  I do not find anything of the kind in the statement.

 7             And I wonder whether it's the Prosecution's position that it

 8     would be illegal at that time for Serbs to respond to call-ups and to

 9     join your unit and go wherever you were sent.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if I can --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I would first like to receive a response from

13     the Prosecution.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, that's a rather complex question that

15     I'd like to an opportunity to think before I make a statement.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So there's now --

17             MR. GROOME:  I don't like to speak about such things off the top

18     of my head.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, then we have no answer to that.

20             Mr. Ivetic, you wanted to make an observation.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  I was going to present the

22     witness's sworn testimony where he indicated differently.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then -- yes, but the Chamber, of course, is

24     not aware [Overlapping speakers] --

25             MR. IVETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 3267

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- was totally lost as far as the relevance of all

 2     that is concerned.  Apart from that, of course, it's a question about

 3     legality, illegality, which requires a legal opinion rather than factual

 4     observation.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I think we can get this done in two minutes.

 7        Q.   Sir, I would like to direct your attention to page 88 of your

 8     testimony from Krajisnik which is transcript page 5375, lines 1 through

 9     14, of 1D291, which is up on the screen.  And here you are again talking

10     about these three colleagues from work, and I will begin the quotation as

11     follows:

12             "Q. They weren't Chetniks, were they?

13             "A. Well, I don't know what structures they were in.  I really

14     can't answer that.

15             "Q. But was there anything about your three work colleagues to

16     indicate that they were what you regarded as Chetniks?

17             "A. Well, we thought along those lines:  First of all, the people

18     that were prone to these [sic] radical moves, that they were the first to

19     join the fighting.  Now, whether they were those or not, it was our

20     understanding that they were.

21             "Q. So let me get this straight.  Well, I'll put the question

22     another way.  Apart from the fact that they -- the simple fact that they

23     went to Croatia to fight, do you know anything else about these [sic]

24     work colleagues of yours which indicated that they were what you regarded

25     as Chetniks?

Page 3268

 1             "A. I don't, no."

 2             Now, sir, having been refreshed with this testimony from

 3     Krajisnik, is it your testimony that these individuals volunteered or

 4     chose to go to war or were they mobilised and responding to a legal

 5     obligation once mobilised.

 6        A.   I asked the manager because the number of personnel was reduced

 7     in my shift.

 8        Q.   Sir, I must insist --

 9        A.   I asked, Where are these people?

10        Q.   We're talking about these three individuals, and I'd like to know

11     with respect to these three individuals what exactly is your testimony.

12     Were they mobilised and responding to legal obligations, or did they

13     volunteer and choose to go to fight?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Ivetic.  Where in the excerpt that you

15     just read to the witness is anything that could remind him of whether

16     there was mobilisation or volunteering?

17             MR. IVETIC:  In this section, no, Your Honour, but the testimony

18     that he just gave in open court previously was that they responded to

19     call-ups.  In his prior testimony he said that they were the first to

20     want to join the fighting.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You quoted this to the witness and you said at the

22     end of it, Now that I have read you this and you have refreshed your

23     memory, can you answer me were these people mobilised or did they

24     volunteer.  And I'm saying what is it here, from what you quoted to the

25     witness, that reminds witness on whether there was a mobilisation or

Page 3269

 1     volunteers?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, my point is to figure out from

 3     the witness, since I have two sets of sworn testimony that, to me, appear

 4     to be different, to find out what that is.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I'm suggesting to you quote to the witness

 6     a piece of his prior testimony which would remind him about whether these

 7     three were mobilised or whether they volunteered.  This what you quoted

 8     to him doesn't do that.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Agreed.  Agreed.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So can you do what would remind him.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

12        Q.   Sir, having heard your testimony from Krajisnik, does it remind

13     you of what you testified in the Krajisnik trial under oath?

14        A.   I'm trying to answer you, and you stopped me.  The manager told

15     me when I said, There are fewer people now.  And he said, They were

16     mobilised.  Including these three.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I believe we could take the break now.

19     I'm finished with that section and will be moving on to the next section.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you indicate us how much time more time you

21     would need?

22             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And could the witness already be escorted out of the

24     courtroom.

25             Mr. Crncalo, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

Page 3270

 1             MR. IVETIC:  One hour and 10 minutes, I think, Your Honours.

 2     Just outside of that.  I will try to finish in less time, but one hour

 3     and ten should be the outside limit.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if there's not much in re-examination, that

 6     would just leave half an hour.  And I suggest, Mr. Ivetic, if you say one

 7     hour and 10 minutes that you try to squeeze it into the one hour, and if

 8     it would be 65 minutes, I think Mr. Mladic would understand.

 9             We take a break and return at quarter past 12.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

13             Meanwhile, Mr. Ivetic, could you inform me whether you have

14     verified what was said by Mr. Seselj or whether there is any documentary

15     evidence on that.

16             Mr. Lukic, of course, if you want to answer the question, that's

17     fine.  But Mr. Ivetic examining the witness.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I spent the entire break with my client

19     in his cell.  I had no opportunity to verify anything.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I was -- as a matter of fact, you asked the

21     questions in cross-examination, so I was referring rather to what

22     happened before you came into court today.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Because you're asking questions, you're suggesting

25     that it is an overreaction on certain matters, whereas I would then be

Page 3271

 1     interested - and I thought you would be interested to know as well - what

 2     Mr. Seselj said at that moment because that might be very important.

 3             I think that Mr. Mladic wants to consult with you.  He has had an

 4     opportunity to do that during the break as we said before.  And if

 5     Mr. Mladic wants to bring anything to your attention he may now write a

 6     little note.  And if it's so urgent, Mr. Ivetic, that you think it

 7     couldn't wait until the next break, then we'll hear from you.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  And, Your Honours, if I may respond.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. IVETIC:  In preparations for this witness, I have to go upon

11     what's been disclosed for this witness, what other material we can find.

12     My preparations include reviewing transcripts from everything single

13     proceeding where this witness has testified to, and the corpus of the

14     knowledge and the testimony that he has contained in here, the questions

15     he's been asked by other counsel on these same topics, the answers he's

16     given.  And so that was my -- that was where all my questioning comes

17     from, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand that you didn't go beyond that

19     and -- because you asked questions about that event, and you apparently

20     were aware of the character of the location where the meeting was held.

21     I don't know whether that -- and the Chamber, of course, is not in a

22     position to verify that.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The questioning was rather suggestive as that there

25     would be no reason, and we just wondered whether you were also interested

Page 3272

 1     in hearing what Mr. Seselj said at that occasion which might support the

 2     evidence of the witness or might contradict the evidence of the witness.

 3             Mr. Crncalo, Mr. Ivetic will now continue his cross-examination.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   Sir, I'd like to move onto several other matters.

 7             First of all, are you aware of the fact that during the years

 8     1991 and 1992, the Bosnian Muslim SDA political party was clandestinely

 9     procuring weapons and distributing them to its people in the

10     municipalities?

11        A.   I lived in the municipality of Pale.  In 1992, it wasn't possible

12     to enter the territory of Pale.  It wasn't possible for foreign

13     individuals to enter the territory of Pale.  What you're asking me about

14     is something I know nothing of.  I am not aware of anyone having obtained

15     weapons in secret.

16        Q.   Okay.  Am I correct, sir, that you describe yourself as a

17     sympathizer of the SDA party, albeit it not a member?

18        A.   You're right.

19        Q.   For the record, can you tell us, if you know, about the attack

20     carried out on Renovica village in Pale municipality wherein two Serb

21     policemen were killed and five other Serb policemen were wounded while

22     trying to disarm that village?

23             And, for the record, that was in -- 20 -- 22nd -- well, in May of

24     1992 [realtime transcript read in error "1991"], sir.

25        A.   I know about the incident, and that evening after the attack,

Page 3273

 1     Malko Koroman, the chief of police, stated on TV, he was in tears, that

 2     unfortunately there was war in the municipality of Pale, and he said that

 3     two of his policemen had been killed in Renovica.

 4        Q.   Okay, sir.  And do you also have knowledge that - and also in

 5     May of 1992 - the Serb civilians of Renovica were expelled from that

 6     village by armed Muslim fighters, and, thus, streamed into Pale as

 7     refugees?

 8        A.   When the attack was carried out, as you say, they wanted to

 9     confiscate weapons.  It was a classic attack on the municipality of -- on

10     the local commune of Renovica because 90 per cent of the population is

11     Muslim down there.  Yes, there were some Serbs in Renovica, but they

12     could have withdrawn quite easily with the Serbian forces that were in

13     Renovica, and they could have gone to Pale.  I didn't live in Renovica

14     and I couldn't go there, so I'm not in a position to describe things in

15     detail for you.

16        Q.   Fair enough, sir.  For the record --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, just at transcript page 54, line 13,

19     I'd ask Mr. Ivetic to check that line and see if the year he said is

20     correctly recorded there.  I believe he said 1992 and the transcript

21     reflects 1991.  That's temporary transcript page 54 of today's

22     transcript, Mr. Ivetic.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

24             MR. IVETIC:  It should be 1992.  I apologise.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 3274

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   For the record sir, are you aware of the existence of armed

 3     Bosnian Muslim fighters in the municipality of Pale in 1992?

 4        A.   There were no fighters, no Muslim fighters in the municipality of

 5     Pale.  There were the local inhabitants who, well, let's say had lived

 6     there for centuries, their parents, their ancestors, their relatives, but

 7     as for organised military formations, no, there were no such formations

 8     there.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us for the record who are Nisad Crncalo and Emir

10     Crncalo and if they have any relation to you?

11        A.   Yes, they are relatives of mean.

12        Q.   And were these two individuals either members or sympathizers of

13     the SDA?

14        A.   To be quite frank, I never tried to verify whether an individual

15     was a member or not.  All I can say is that I knew where I stood.

16        Q.   With -- with regard --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic.  Written notes, nothing else.

18     Otherwise, you will be removed from this courtroom.  Last warning.

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   With regard to these individuals I believe you testified in the

21     Krajisnik case they were your cousins.  These relatives, in any event,

22     Nisad and Emir Crncalo.  You were presented in Krajisnik with the

23     proposition that these individuals had been arrested because they had

24     been trading in illegal weapons.  Do you recall that testimony, sir?

25        A.   Yes, I remember the event.  They were never involved in a

Page 3275

 1     trafficking scheme for food or weapons.  They were arrested in the street

 2     and I saw that myself.  And it's not only they who were arrested, quite a

 3     few young people were arrested at the time.

 4        Q.   And you personally intervened to get them released from custody;

 5     is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  It wasn't just me.  There were about ten of us who went to

 7     see Malko Koroman to ask him about what was happening and why these young

 8     people had been arrested.

 9        Q.   And eventually, through your efforts, these relatives of yours

10     were released; is that correct?

11        A.   Not just these two relatives of mine whose names I have

12     mentioned.  There were certainly at least ten young people, young men,

13     who had been arrested on that day.

14        Q.   I put to you, sir, that in Pale municipality, specifically in

15     Praca, that the Bosnian Muslim population there had access not only to

16     hunting and sport guns but also to automatic rifles up to the start of

17     the war in April.  Would you agree with that proposition, sir?

18        A.   I wouldn't.  In Renovica there was a military barracks and they

19     were able to control the population.  If any military weapons arrived

20     that weren't intended for those barracks, in such cases, disciplinary

21     measures would have been taken.

22        Q.   Sir, your answer specifies Renovica.  I'm asking you now go

23     Praca.  Are you familiar with Praca?

24        A.   Of course, I -- of course, I am.

25        Q.   Would you agree with me that the Muslim males in Praca possessed

Page 3276

 1     not only hunting and short guns but also had access to automatic weapons,

 2     automatic rifles, up to the start of the war in April?

 3        A.   I'm quite sure that they did not have any such weapons.  I could

 4     stake my life on it.

 5        Q.   I'd like to present to you your sworn testimony in the Karadzic

 6     proceedings.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  1D288, page 26 in e-court at the bottom.

 8        Q.   Wherein you testified pertaining to questions posed to you by

 9     Mr. Karadzic.  And when that comes up, it starts at the bottom of the

10     page and goes onto the next page.  I will read for you, sir.  Please

11     listen carefully.  Starting at line 19:

12             "Q. Now, could I draw your attention to the document on the

13     screen dated 28th April.  It says:

14             'As a result of a successful operation by the employees of the

15     public security station in Pale, most Muslims from Praca handed over

16     their weapons today.  Automatic rifles, which had been distributed with

17     the mediation of the Praca Imam Fazlo Gljiva were handed over to the

18     authorities.  These weapons had arrived in Praca through channels used by

19     Senaid Memic from Hrasnica.  This well known Muslim extremist armed

20     members of the Muslim community throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina and from

21     that shipment, 20 automatic rifles arrived in the Praca region.'

22             "Can you see this document?

23             "A. Yes, but these weapons were legally distributed at the police

24     station of Pale to reserve policemen, and those who couldn't muster the

25     courage to bring this rifle and uniform to the police station were

Page 3277

 1     returned otherwise.  I personally took two rifles from two reserve

 2     policemen and turned them over at the police station.

 3             "Q. You're talking about weapons that people are issued with when

 4     they go on an exercise, be they reserve policemen or reserve soldiers,

 5     they get gas masks and uniforms and weapons and they take it all home.

 6             "A. That's the way it used to work."

 7             Let me stop right there for now.  Do you recall this testimony

 8     from the Karadzic proceedings, sir.

 9        A.   Yes, I do.  But you have to allow me to answer your question.

10        Q.   Sir, how do you reconcile this testimony that you personally

11     surrendered two rifles with your testimony today at line 17 and 18 of

12     page 57 where you said: "I'm quite sure they did not have any such

13     weapons.  I could stake my life on it"?

14        A.   What you say was returned was illegal.  The police had

15     distributed these weapons to the reserve forces.  The Muslims were still

16     in the reserve forces when Malko, after the attack on Renovica, ordered

17     all long-barrelled weapons to be returned.  They were all returned and

18     that included these weapons that were distributed to the police.  The

19     standard Muslim police force in Pale had been disbanded, and the two men

20     whose rifles and uniforms I said I returned, well, yes, I did do that.

21     They couldn't take them with them.  They asked me whether I could return

22     them.  I said I could and I returned them.  I went to the police.  The

23     legal weapons were most probably returned.  There was nothing illegal

24     that was done.

25        Q.   Am I correct then, sir, that the Muslim inhabitants, the males of

Page 3278

 1     Pale municipality, retained the weapons that had been issued to them by

 2     the JNA in 1991 and all this entire period up until now that we are

 3     talking about, including up to the attack on Renovica?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me better understand.  Earlier I heard about

 5     police -- reserve police.  In your question now it is JNA.  Is that --

 6     how do I have to?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, Your Honours.  I had stopped reading

 8     from the quotation before we went to the end.  The witness has talked

 9     about the police and perhaps if I can -- let me -- let me first ask him

10     about the police and then we can finish the quotation and then ask him

11     about the others and it will become clearer.

12        Q.   Sir, am I correct that the Muslim habitants, the males of Pale

13     municipality, retained the weapons that had been issued to them by the

14     police in 1991 and all the way up this entire period up until now,

15     including up until after the attack on Renovica?

16        A.   I don't have any precise information as to when the reserve

17     policemen were mobilised.  I don't have any precise information.  But I

18     did see them when they went on patrol.  They were wearing those winter

19     police uniforms, not the summer ones, and they had semi-automatic rifles

20     on them.  I saw that myself.  They didn't have to return these weapons to

21     the police because every day they were involved in carrying out checks of

22     some kind.  When they were ordered to return the weapons, they returned

23     them.  But as to when these weapons were issued, I don't know.  I

24     couldn't say.

25        Q.   Okay.  And now if we could return to the segment from the

Page 3279

 1     Karadzic trial, and we left off at line 13.  I'd like to read from line

 2     14 onwards and have you comment on that, sir.  So again I will quote so

 3     you can get the translation of what was said during that trial, starting

 4     with line 14:

 5             "Q. That was in keeping with the Tito's doctrine of armed

 6     population?

 7             "A. Yes.  I don't think how long they kept -- they got to keep

 8     the uniforms and the equipment, I mean registered reserve policemen.

 9     These were not distributed to other regular people.  And when this

10     announcement came, some of these reserve policemen did not have the

11     courage to bring it in themselves to the police station.

12             "Q. I agree about the reserve policemen, but were you ever called

13     up to do an exercise as a military reservist?

14             "A. Yes.

15             "Q. At that time would you also take the uniform and sometimes

16     the weapon home?

17             "A. First of all, I could not drive an armoured vehicle back to

18     my home.

19             "Q. Yes, but infantrymen could take weapons home, couldn't they?

20             "A. Yes."

21             End of quotation.  And we're now on page 1211 of that transcript.

22             Sir, do you recall this testimony from the Karadzic trial that

23     you participated in in, I believe, 2010.

24        A.   I do.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

Page 3280

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd just like to clarify the record

 2     regarding the previous line of questioning.  Initially, Mr. Ivetic had

 3     identified --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Yeah.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You may do so.  You are not supposed to comment at

 7     this moment, although I might have comment on some of the questions, but

 8     you can do that in re-examination.

 9             Mr. Ivetic.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.  I apologise, Your Honour.  You said you had a

11     comment on --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I wait for your next question and I might

13     comment then.

14             MR. IVETIC:

15        Q.   Sir, with respect to this part of the Karadzic transcript and

16     your testimony, would you agree with me that it was possible for Muslim

17     males and also males of other ethnicities who had been called up for

18     exercises in Pale municipality to have been issued equipment, including

19     weapons and uniforms, and kept them this entire period, including up

20     until after the attack on Renovica village that we have discussed?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said just a minute ago --

23             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, respectfully, the document that

24     Mr. Ivetic used to start this line of questioning is dated April 1992.

25     He has dated the attack in May 1992, and so I'm not sure why he thinks

Page 3281

 1     this line of questioning is relevant to the attack on Renovica village.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's, again, comment.

 3             Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  To respond or?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  You may proceed.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Sir, can I get an answer to my question.  For your sake let me

 8     repeat it, sir.

 9             With respect to this part of the Karadzic transcript and your

10     testimony, would you agree with me that it was possible for Muslim males

11     and also males of other ethnicities who had been called up for exercises

12     in Pale municipality to have been issued equipment, including weapons and

13     uniforms, and to have kept them this entire period including up until

14     after the attack on Renovica village that we have discussed?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Crncalo, just to clarify, Mr. Ivetic is not

16     asking whether they took any weapons home but whether that was possible.

17     Could you please answer that question.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.  It wasn't possible because

19     at that time, at the time of the crisis, the Muslims did not receive any

20     call-up papers.  No one tried to mobilise them.

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   Were there scheduled exercises in 1990, 1991?

23        A.   Not the usual military exercises.  No such exercises had been

24     planned, as far as I know.

25        Q.   Then where did these reserve policemen whose rifles you returned,

Page 3282

 1     where did they get their weapons if they had not been mobilised and had

 2     not been called for exercises?

 3        A.   Well, I have answered that question.  And now you're asking me

 4     about military weapons or whether the army distributed weapons.  I

 5     answered your question with regard to the police.  The police mobilised

 6     them and they were given weapons, the reservists were.  But as for the

 7     army, there was no attempt to mobilise the -- the Muslims.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'll now come with my comment.

 9             You start a line of questioning, asking the witness that the

10     Bosnian Muslim population there had access not only to hunting and sport

11     guns but also to automatic rifles.

12             A few lines further down, you said:

13             "Would you agree with me that the Muslim males in Praca possessed

14     not only hunting and sport guns but also had access to automatic rifles."

15             And then you create an inconsistency with some people perhaps

16     having kept, due to the police service, having kept.  That is misleading.

17     That is creating an inconsistency which doesn't exist yet.  If you had

18     asked in the beginning:  Are you aware whether any man had any such

19     weapon and what happened to those weapons, then you most likely would

20     have received the answers as the witness gives them now.

21             It takes an awful lot of time, you're confusing the witness, and

22     it's the third time today that the Chamber has to correct you on creating

23     non-existing contradictions.  Please keep this in mind when you continue

24     your cross-examination.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Sir, I must take exception because you are not

Page 3283

 1     looking at page 57, line 2, where I asked specifically did proceed by

 2     asking about the Bosnian Muslim population in Pale municipality generally

 3     and asked him whether he agreed with the proposition.  He then said he

 4     wouldn't and then he started answering about Renovica, and then I went

 5     specifically to Praca because the testamentary relates to Praca.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Where did you limit -- in paragraph 57?  I put to

 7     you --

 8             MR. IVETIC:  On page 57.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I beg your pardon.  Page 57, line?

10             MR. IVETIC:  We're asking about Praca.  Line 2:

11             "I put it to you, sir, that in Pale municipality, specifically in

12     Praca..."

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Bosnian Muslim population, that is a broad

14     characteristic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  In Praca.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is it your suggestion that all the Bosnian

17     Muslim population in Praca had access to or that individuals in Praca may

18     have had such weapons?  That's not the same, Mr. Ivetic.  I take it that

19     you're aware of that.

20             MR. IVETIC:  I'm aware it's not the same.  It's -- we're -- okay.

21     I stand corrected on that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't -- please proceed.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Am I correct, sir, that the SDA leadership in Sarajevo explicitly

Page 3284

 1     told Muslims of Pale and the rest of Bosnia not to respond to

 2     mobilisation call-ups?

 3        A.   No one gave us that information.  The then-authorities in the

 4     municipality of Pale simply didn't send call-up papers to us, and we had

 5     no contact with Sarajevo whatsoever.

 6        Q.   Were you aware of the SDA leadership in Sarajevo telling Bosnian

 7     Muslims not to respond to the mobilisation call-ups -- or, pardon me.

 8     Let's make it very simple:  Are you aware of the SDA leadership in

 9     Sarajevo explicitly telling everyone not to respond to the mobilisation

10     call-up?

11        A.   I am unaware of that.

12        Q.   Can I offer to refresh your recollection by the fact that in two

13     trials before this Tribunal you have testified that you were aware of

14     that, including the Zupljanin transcript, the 21st of June, 2010,

15     transcript page 11997, lines 10 through 15, and the Krajisnik transcript,

16     2 September 2004, transcript page 5365 through 5366.  Do I need to pull

17     them up, sir?

18        A.   If you bear with me, I'll tell you.  This is what I know.

19     Alija Izetbegovic suggested that the young men that were supposed to

20     serve their military term should not go.  I don't know anything about the

21     entire -- the overall population.

22        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's see if we can move forward.  Do you recall

23     that immediately before your arrest, there was an incident in Sarajevo

24     where Bosnian Muslim individuals had attacked a Serb wedding in Sarajevo?

25        A.   Yes.  That is how the media reported.  In Stari Grad, a Serb

Page 3285

 1     person was killed at a wedding, and everyone seemed to believe that.

 2     However, when I was in Sarajevo inquiring about it, they said that there

 3     were demonstrations taking place and that the person who was killed -- I

 4     don't know if I can speak freely?  That they were provoking.

 5        Q.   I'm not interested in the incident as I am in the time-period.

 6     Keeping in mind when that time -- when that incident occurred, sir, and

 7     perhaps -- well, let me do it the easy way.  Let me call up your

 8     testimony from the Krajisnik trial.  T -- 1D284, page 5 in e-court.  It

 9     starts at line 11.  Here it goes -- again, sir, I will read so you get

10     the translation:

11             "Q. I think what I asked you was whether you recall that.  Are

12     you saying that at the time you didn't know anything about such matters?

13             "A. There were check-points towards Sarajevo and towards Pale,

14     but I myself didn't see what those people at the check-points in Sarajevo

15     did.  I didn't go there so I can't say.

16             "Q. Were you aware that they were what might be rather crudely

17     referred to as 'Muslim check-points'?

18             "A. Yes they were."

19             Now, first, sir, I want to ask you, do you recall this testimony

20     that you gave in Krajisnik?

21        A.   I do recall it well.  When I was asked about that instance, I

22     wasn't able to recall things, and they asked me several times.  Each time

23     I said I didn't know.  Very well.

24        Q.   First, before we get to that, are these check-points that you are

25     talking about in Krajisnik check-points that arose immediately after this

Page 3286

 1     incident in Sarajevo where this wedding was attacked?

 2        A.   I can't say anything precisely about the check-points.  I do know

 3     that at one check-point people stopped coming through to work from

 4     Sarajevo to Pale.  That's the only check-point I can refer to.

 5        Q.   Okay.  With respect to Pale itself, am I correct that as of

 6     May 1992 there were many refugees coming to Pale from not only

 7     surrounding villages but also from Sarajevo, such that there are about

 8     15.000 refugees and the food supplies were said to be getting low?

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, that's a compound question.  Perhaps if

10     Mr. Ivetic could break it up so the witness can answer it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

13        Q.   Am I correct, sir, that with respect to Pale itself, as of

14     May 1992, there were many refugees coming to Pale not only from the

15     surrounding villages but also from Sarajevo?

16        A.   Yes, they started coming.

17        Q.   You were asked about -- well, strike that.  Would you agree with

18     me that there were estimates that approximately 15.000 refugees, as of

19     May 1992, had come to Pale?

20        A.   I would agree.

21        Q.   And would you also agree that the food supplies in Pale were said

22     to be getting low because of this excess number of people that were in

23     Pale?

24        A.   I know that too.

25        Q.   And would you also agree with me that the tensions in Pale, or

Page 3287

 1     the rise in tensions in Pale, according to you, were in part -- were in

 2     part arising from this large wave of refugees?  If you understand the

 3     question.  If not, I will rephrase it by going to something you testified

 4     about earlier.

 5        A.   Yes, of course we were afraid.  People were coming.  People we

 6     didn't know.  And they would say, I came from the front lines, I came

 7     from combat, and he had hand-grenades around his belt, knives, weapons.

 8     Of course we were afraid.

 9        Q.   And would you agree with me that during this period another

10     factor which you identify as contributing to the rise of tensions in Pale

11     was an attack performed by Muslims against Serbs in Zepa on the 4th of

12     June, 1992?

13        A.   Muslims did not attack Serbs in Zepa.  There were basically no

14     Serbs in Zepa.  There was a column going from Sokolac to Zepa, and I

15     guess the people there defended themselves.

16        Q.   You were asked about this in the Krajisnik trial, and am I

17     correct, sir, that you agreed, although you didn't know the actual

18     number, that a great number of Serb young men from Pale were killed in

19     this attack on a -- on a column passing by Zepa?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Transcript page, please, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  The transcript page would be 5391

22     through 5392 in Krajisnik.  It is 1D284, pages 8 through 9 in e-court,

23     if --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Starting at line -- line 10, I believe.

Page 3288

 1        Q.   And, now, sir, I apologise.  Let me restate my question.  Am I

 2     correct, sir, that although you don't know the actual number, that a

 3     great number of Serb young men from Pale were killed on this attack on a

 4     column passing by Zepa.

 5        A.   I was in no position to learn about the numerical strength of

 6     either those who were killed or the other side.  I could -- I only knew

 7     that there were helicopters used to communicate with Zepa, and -- but I

 8     didn't know anything about numbers, and they used the helicopters for the

 9     food and the wounded.

10        Q.   Okay.  Perhaps if I can direct your attention and let me read

11     this for you, sir, to be fair.  This is line 13 of what is on the screen

12     through line 17.  And again, it's a quotation from the Krajisnik trial:

13             "Q. And about 45 or about 45 soldiers were killed by Muslims in

14     that attack, weren't they?

15             "A. I don't know the number.  I don't know how many people were

16     killed, those young men who were Serbs from Pale.  But I do know that the

17     number was quite high."

18             Sir, does that refresh your recollection and am I correct that --

19     that this is what you testified to -- in the -- in the Krajisnik case.

20        A.   Yes, I testified to that.  And I repeated that I know there were

21     quite a few who were killed, but I don't know any specific figures.

22        Q.   Okay.  And during this time-period when tensions were high in

23     Pale, at paragraph 31 of your statement, you talk about certain

24     paramilitary criminals who you identify as not being in the army who were

25     going around and harassing people.  I'd like to ask you, if you recall,

Page 3289

 1     that during this time-period, the authorities in Pale, that is, the

 2     police authorities and the army, undertook to disarm and arrest a group

 3     of paramilitary criminals that had been in the Mali Dom who had been

 4     harassing both Serbs and Muslims in Pale?

 5        A.   The traditional kind of mistreatment in private homes and

 6     apartments was not present, but we were afraid the moment such an armed

 7     person would show up.

 8        Q.   Do you have knowledge of the police and army authorities in Pale

 9     arresting a group of criminals who had been -- operating near the Mali

10     Dom in Pale who had been harassing Serbs and Muslims in Pale during this

11     period when tensions were high?

12        A.   This name, Mali Dom, is not familiar to me.  There is a so-called

13     Turisticki Dom that I know but that's far from me, the other end of Pale.

14     I couldn't possibly know what was going on there.  And I don't know why

15     you call these men criminals.  I know exactly what a criminal is.  This

16     thing that was happening in Pale was something entirely different.  No

17     question of criminals.

18        Q.   Do you have knowledge or not of a large group of individuals that

19     were arrested and disarmed by the authorities of Pale during this

20     time-period for harassing Muslims and Serbs in the municipality?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first try to split it up.  Are you aware of

22     people being arrested at that time apparently on suspicion of having

23     arrest Serbs and Muslims?  Do you know whether people were arrested?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 3290

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Do you recall the situation with Agan Kadaric [phoen] and his

 3     wife whose jewellery had been stolen by a certain of these persons you

 4     identify as paramilitaries, and that the police were able to get this

 5     jewellery back and returned it to Ms. Kadaric?

 6        A.   I know about that.  And, yes, it happened the way you say.  The

 7     jewellery was stolen but the police found out somehow, caught those

 8     people, and the jewellery was returned.

 9        Q.   And if we could just briefly look at 1D283.  This is a proofing

10     note.  And I believe the -- the bottom paragraph, the last paragraph on

11     the page, talks about this incident.  And also talks -- says here, sir,

12     and I'm reading from the bottom of the proofing note:

13             "On another occasion, one person was removed from his flat.  He

14     complained and was allowed to return."

15             Sir, is this another incident where these persons you identify as

16     paramilitaries harassed individuals and the authorities -- the police

17     authorities apprehended these paramilitaries and returned the rightful

18     owner to his flat in Pale?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first ask the witness whether he has any

20     knowledge about the incident before we ask him to comment on documents.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, this is a proofing note of the

22     interview with the Office of the Prosecutor and this witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you're right.  Let me see.  Yes, I missed that.

24     Apologies for that.

25             Could you answer the question, Witness?

Page 3291

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know that person.  His name

 2     is Nasko Smajic.  He was arrested, and I'm not sure if he spent the night

 3     in custody, and then he was released.  But then the police caught up with

 4     him and somebody set him up, put a rifle that we called the Gypsy, and he

 5     was found with it, and he was taken in again, and he never came out of

 6     the police station alive again.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Okay.  We have your testimony.  I'd like to now move to discuss

 9     the exchange of residence that you undertook and which is discussed at

10     page 61 through 63 of your statement, which is Exhibit P260.

11             MR. IVETIC:  For e-court, it's page 11 in English and pages 20 to

12     21 in the B/C/S.

13        Q.   And herein you describe the transfer of your house to an

14     individual named Ms. Dragica Subotic.  First of all, with respect to

15     paragraph 61 of your statement, I put it to you that paragraph 61 is not

16     entirely accurate because this paragraph does not identify that you

17     actually co-owned your home with your brother, Taib.  Am I correct?

18        A.   No, you're not correct.  We were owners of the building 2/1.  It

19     was in the land register and it also verified by a court.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You say "we."

21             Did you mean you and your brother or?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  My brother and I.  I

23     mean to say that the two of us were owners of that house.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you were both living in it?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both.  We shared it.  We lived in

Page 3292

 1     one part of the house, each.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  If we can call up 65 ter number 03727,

 4     and I apologise, Your Honours, by my notes this was not tendered as an

 5     associated exhibit, although it is I believe referenced in the -- in the

 6     statement.  So I apologise if there's a P number that I have somehow

 7     missed.  But by my notes, it was not tendered.

 8        Q.   So while we wait for 65 ter 03727, sir, can you look on the

 9     screen.  Does this appear to be the contract that you signed, along with

10     your brother and Ms. Subotic, in relation to your home?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And if we could scroll down to the signatures.  Does that appear

13     to have the signatures of all persons concerned?

14        A.   Yes, they're there.

15        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to part IV of this contract,

16     wherein it states:

17             "The contracting parties hereby undertake that the use and

18     looking after ... the property under contract shall be temporary and

19     shall last until the war eases and the conditions for normal life are

20     achieved, at which time the final status of the property under contract

21     shall be resolved by agreement with the mandatory consent of the

22     contracting parties."

23             Sir, this contract does not, in fact, transfer ownership but

24     envisions the right to use of property that shall be temporary until the

25     war conditions are over; isn't that correct?

Page 3293

 1        A.   Look at the date on this document.  On the same day, after

 2     2.00 p.m., I found myself on the way to Sarajevo on a bus.  I had no time

 3     to think anything over.  I was going straight from there to the bus.  And

 4     this was a very important document.  It was important to Dragica Subotic,

 5     so that she can take -- get into the house.  It didn't matter to me.

 6     There you are, here I am.  I want to swap something with you, and you are

 7     taking in exchange something you have never seen and you have to agree to

 8     it.  I had no opportunity to see that property, and, of course, I wasn't

 9     leaving my house of my own will.  I had to.

10        Q.   We'll get to all of that.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this time I would tender this

12     document as the next available D exhibit before moving onto the next

13     Prosecution document that I'd like to show this witness.

14             MR. TRALDI:  No objection, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection.

16             Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 03727 shall be

18     assigned Exhibit D54.  Thank you.

19             MR. IVETIC:  If we could --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. ... I'm trying to understand why we have to

21     establish that this is not transfer of ownership.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Because the witness's statement in paragraphs 61

23     through 63.  First of all, the heading says "Forcible Transfer of Muslim

24     Property."

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 3294

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  And in paragraphs --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Isn't it true that property is transferred not

 3     ownership by property?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  And in paragraph --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The contracting parties shall take possession of the

 6     property under contract.  That is, therefore, a transfer of property.

 7     And it says nowhere in 61 or 62, it's not even suggested, that ownership

 8     is transferred.  Even the witness is quite clear on that.  Some kind of a

 9     contract.

10             So apart, of course, what is the core of the testimony of the

11     witness, that he was not free to -- not to sign, that he was under such

12     circumstances that he was -- he couldn't do anything else.  Now you are

13     focussing on what seems to be an issue which is relatively marginal in

14     this whole matter, because it's not about the formal aspect of ownership.

15     And apart from that, you are telling me that this is about ownership and

16     you're correcting something which is not contained in the statement.  Or

17     do I misread the statement?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I read the statement and again I'm

19     perhaps --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then tell me where the transfer of ownership

21     is mentioned in paragraph 61 and 62.

22             MR. IVETIC:  62.  62.  "I did not give up my house voluntarily.

23     They were not voluntarily surrendering their property and none of us

24     voluntarily surrendered our property."  And again, I am coloured by the

25     fact that I have the witness's testimony in three other trials where the

Page 3295

 1     insinuation was made that this was a transfer of ownership.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll check that, then.  But at least to the

 3     extent you told me that this is what the document says, you would agree

 4     with me that the document is talking about the transfer of property and

 5     that is the language the witness used at least in his statement, and that

 6     no mention is made in any way of ownership.  But if there are other

 7     matters, then you should have taken the witness to those parts of the

 8     testimony where ownership is dealt with.  Here it is not.  At least --

 9     unless you tell me where to find it.  And we all know that property and

10     ownership is not the same, isn't is it?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

13             MR. IVETIC:

14        Q.   Sir, did you consider this as a contract whereby you were being

15     forced to give up ownership of your property?

16        A.   You're asking me now to comment on legal aspects.  I'm only

17     saying that I was forced to sign that contract.  Now about ownership and

18     property and things likes that, are not something I can speak about.

19        Q.   Fair enough.  With regard to paragraph 61 of your statement, you

20     discuss the negotiations with Ms. Subotic to transfer your house

21     temporarily to her.  I'd like to ask you:  Is it correct that you

22     undertook these negotiations with Ms. Subotic or was it, in fact, your

23     brother who undertook all of these discussions with Ms. Subotic?

24        A.   My brother talked to Dragica Subotic, and I honoured my brother,

25     even though he is dead now, and I did not contradict him.  But if it had

Page 3296

 1     been up to me, I don't know how it would have ended.  It may be that I

 2     would not have survived the war but I would surely not leave my house.

 3        Q.   Am I correct that your late brother basically ran this whole

 4     business about the exchange and that you had very little to do with it,

 5     apart from signing your name on the document?

 6        A.   None of us had any time.  It all happened on the same day when we

 7     had to leave the house.  We didn't have time to discuss anything and what

 8     to do and what is best.  We could see what was going on around us and we

 9     thought we needed to save our heads.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Crncalo, were you present when your brother

11     spoke, your late brother, spoke to -- to Dragica Subotic?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the first part of their

13     discussions, I wasn't present.  I joined them when they had already

14     almost agreed.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if you still remember, at what time in the day

16     you left from Pale?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was 2.00 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  At what time - to the extent you remember - did

19     Dragica Subotic come to you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She didn't actually come to see me

21     at all.  My late wife told me, There's a woman calling on your brother.

22     It could have been 11.00 a.m. when I found out about that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you or your brother have known her before she

24     then came to your house?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we didn't know her.  Nobody

Page 3297

 1     knew her before.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, once you signed, you would be aware of the

 3     existence of Dragica Subotic for two hours, approximately, or a little

 4     bit over two hours?  Is that correctly understood?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not earlier than that.  I had known

 6     her for about two or three hours before I left my house.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   You say you had known her for two or three hours.  Is it correct

10     that your brother met with her the day before and discussed the

11     transfer -- temporary transfer of the property?

12        A.   No, no.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Crncalo, do you positively know that she did not

15     come the day before or are you not aware that she may have come the day

16     before?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose my brother would have

18     told me for sure if he had -- if she had come the day before.  I can't

19     say that she had visited earlier than I saw her.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.  I'm looking also looking at the

22     clock, Mr. Ivetic.  How much time would you still need?

23             MR. IVETIC:  I need at least five to seven minutes to finish up

24     with this line of questioning, which was to be my --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And after that?

Page 3298

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Which was to be my last.  I apologise.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I suggest that you finish in the next

 3     seven minutes and that we take the break slightly later than we usually

 4     do.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   And this Subotic family, am I correct that this lady and her son

 9     did not prevent you from taking anything from the home that you wished?

10        A.   They did not.  But what was I supposed to carry?  On my back or

11     where?  I could take only what I could carry in my two hands onto the

12     bus.

13        Q.   Am I correct, sir, that you did, in fact, get possession of your

14     home back in 2002 and everything there was still intact and preserved?

15        A.   I got the house back, but I didn't find anything inside.  No

16     furniture.  And there are still traces of the axe that was used to get

17     the floorboards off.  And all the shelves and everything we had from --

18     from floor to ceiling, that was all gone.  I -- I did get the house back,

19     though.

20        Q.   Do you recall meeting the son, Mr. Miro Subotic, who was present

21     during the signing of the contract that his mother signed?

22        A.   His mother introduced him.  We only met at the municipality, in

23     the municipal building.

24             MR. IVETIC:  If we can call up 1D292.  This is a statement given

25     by Miro Subotic to the Karadzic Defence team that was disclosed to us by

Page 3299

 1     the Office of the Prosecutor on the EDS system, and I would like to ask

 2     for the witness's comment on some items on page 3.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, do you intend to tender this or to --

 4     otherwise you could read from it because it might be not in line with

 5     Rule 92 bis or ter to use it in evidence, so if you want read a portion

 6     of it and then have it marked for identification that would be the most

 7     appropriate.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I was even just going to read it but have it up on

 9     the screen so people could follow, so that the court reporters and

10     translators can have an easier time keeping up with me.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Obviously I'm only interested in what the witness

13     knows or does not know about these items.  This is on page 3 at the top

14     in the B/C/S and the bottom of page 2 in the English.  And the

15     paragraph I would like to start with is the third from the bottom.

16        Q.   And, sir, I will read for you since I do see that this -- that

17     the B/C/S version is in Cyrillic and I do not know whether you can read

18     Cyrillic:

19             "The brothers, Taib and Sulejman, together with a large group of

20     their countrymen, left Pale in an organised fashion in a bus convoy,

21     probably on the same day.  They all left voluntarily, based on their own

22     requests [sic] and without any kind of harassment.

23             "I personally helped Taib and Sulejman carry their things to the

24     bus.  We parted on friendly terms, and Sulejman's allegations which I

25     have become acquainted with, that someone threatened them and forced them

Page 3300

 1     out of their house, are not true."

 2             First of all, sir, is it correct that Mr. Subotic and the Subotic

 3     family assisted you and your brother in carrying things to the bus?

 4        A.   Miro is not fair and he is not sincere.  He didn't help me and I

 5     don't think he helped my brother.  They did come to check whether we

 6     were, indeed, going to board the buses for Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   And I'm now going to ask you about the entirety of these two

 8     paragraphs that I read to you from this statement of Mr. Subotic.  Do

 9     you -- do you agree that they accurately reflect the situation or not?

10     That is, do you agree with it or do you take issue with it?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  With what, exactly?

12             MR. IVETIC:  These two paragraphs.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  There's a lot in these two paragraphs.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Well, the entirety.  Do they accurately reflect the

15     events that transpired or not, whether --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, you've asked many questions -- many

17     questions were asked about the subjects covered by these where the

18     witness clearly said he did not agree.  So therefore to ask him now to

19     agree on the whole of it seems to be not --

20             MR. IVETIC:  I'm not asking -- I'm asking whether he takes issue

21     with the entirety of it, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The two paragraphs, you mean?

23             MR. IVETIC:  The third from the bottom and the second --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, the one starting with --

25             MR. IVETIC:  "The brothers Taib and Sulejman ..."

Page 3301

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think you already testified that you -- that

 2     you were not helped by Miro carrying their things to the bus, isn't it?

 3             Now --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you -- did you part on friendly terms with this

 6     family?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not.  They did watch us

 8     board the buses, but ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you agree that you were not threatened and

10     forced to leave the house?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't drive us out, but they

12     did hurry us along.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean they, the mother and the son did not drive

14     you out.  But I did understand your testimony to be that -- that you were

15     forced not by these persons but you were forced out of the -- of Pale.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.  I was forced by

17     the Serbian Democratic Party and by Koljevic himself who stated, Serbs

18     won't live with the Muslims together in Pale.  What else is necessary?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have one more question for you.

20             You -- you got the house back, you said, a few years after the

21     war.  I think you said 2002.  Do you remember -- how did you get it back?

22     Was it voluntarily transferred to you, or did you have to go to court for

23     it or?

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I submitted an

Page 3302

 1     application to recover my house, there was some international

 2     non-governmental organisation at work, they were involved, and I went

 3     through them.  They went to the municipality to get some documents to

 4     check that we were indeed the owners, Sulejman and Taib, and based on

 5     those documents they realised we were indeed the owners, and then they

 6     started proceedings to recover the house for us.  But there was this

 7     international CRPC organisation.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It was not that Mrs. Subotic voluntarily left the

 9     house and returned it to you, you had to go to court.  Do I understand

10     you well?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't go to court myself.  It is

12     very likely that the CRPC people did.  Dragica, may she rest in peace,

13     died before I succeeded in getting the house back.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But she remained living in the house when you had

15     started the -- or when the court proceedings had started?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  She died before the procedure

17     of return was set in motion.  Two of her sons, Miro and Zoran, were in

18     the house.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  They continued to live there when proceedings were

20     started.  Is that correctly understood?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             We are beyond the time where we usually take the break.

24             Mr. Ivetic, how much time would you still -- how many questions

25     would you still have, I would say, because I think after six out of the

Page 3303

 1     seven minutes you said you would needed I intervened which would leave

 2     you one minute.  Is that --

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I have five questions, Your Honours, including one

 4     citation from this -- from this statement of Mr. Subotic that goes into

 5     some of the matters that Your Honour has raised.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we first have to take a break.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But could the witness first leave the courtroom.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at ten minutes to 2.00.  And for the

12     five questions, you have five minutes, Mr. Ivetic.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

14                           --- Recess taken at 1.33 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 1.52 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.  You've got five

19     minutes for your last questions.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21        Q.   Sir, the Subotic family, just to be clear, they were Serb

22     refugees who had been expelled from their home in the Pofalici

23     neighbourhood of Sarajevo by armed Muslims; is that correct?

24        A.   I don't know what had happened to them.  I just know they showed

25     up at Pale.  I don't know how they left the city.  I can't comment on

Page 3304

 1     that, and they didn't mention it to me.

 2        Q.   I'd like to return to the statement by Mr. Miro Subotic, and I'd

 3     like to skip to the next page in English, whereas on the B/C/S it's still

 4     on the same page just skipping one paragraph, and I read the

 5     paragraph that begins at the top.  So it's page 3 in the English:

 6             "I left the house owned by the Crncalo brothers in the presence

 7     of representatives of the Commissariat for Refugees and Displaced Persons

 8     of the municipality of Pale.  On that occasion a report was drafted which

 9     clearly shows that the house was returned in good condition.  My brother

10     and I even added a fence on the balcony which was not there before and

11     did that at our own expense.  That is when I gave the representatives of

12     the Commissariat the house key, which was reported in the inventory.

13     Hence, my family and I, my brother's family, and my late mother abided by

14     all six provisions in the contract on exchange signed by us and the

15     brothers Taib and Sulejman Crncalo."

16             Is it correct that you received a report from the Commissariat

17     for Refugees and Displaced Persons and an inventory relating to the

18     condition of the property when it was returned to you in 2003, I believe?

19        A.   I was prohibited from being present when the key was handed over.

20     The report was drafted by a person from the Commissariat and it was

21     drafted only once I arrived at the house with that person.  Miro never

22     even jokingly mentioned my car, let alone returned it.  It was a Fiat

23     125P and it had only 33 kilometres on the clock.  It was almost new --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  33.000 kilometres on

25     the clock.

Page 3305

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In any case, he didn't even need to

 2     return it.  I'm just happy to be alive.

 3             MR. IVETIC:

 4        Q.   If I can now turn to the convoy after this.  Am I correct, sir --

 5     or strike that.  I have information that the convoy was arranged by a

 6     Bosnian Muslim SDA official with the authorities and that the

 7     individual's name is Mr. Ahmed Palo who is the vice-president of the Pale

 8     municipality before the war.  Do you know anything about this?

 9        A.   Ahmed's last name is Palo.  On paper, he was deputy head of

10     municipality, but as for his ability to organise such a convoy, well, he

11     lived some 20-plus kilometres away from the Pale municipality towards the

12     east.  He had no access to the centre of Pale so as to able to organise

13     any convoys.  It was organised by the SDS.  No one else.

14        Q.   Okay.  I understand your testimony.  We will check up on that.

15     Now, with respect to the convoy that was under the police escort, as I

16     believe you had identified in your statement, am I correct that the

17     entire convoy was able to travel over to the demarcation line between the

18     warring factions and that everyone arrived in Sarajevo without suffering

19     any harassment or any injuries.  Is that accurate?

20        A.   That is correct.  No one touched us.  We arrived at a location at

21     Zeca Glava, and then we had to go down to the city on foot.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I thank you for your answers.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I don't have any further questions at

24     this time.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Any need for re-examination?

Page 3306

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Just briefly, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 4        Q.   Mr. Crncalo, Mr. Ivetic just read you at temporary transcript

 5     page 85 a portion of Miro Subotic's statement discussing the condition of

 6     the properties you had exchanged.  Can you describe for the Chamber the

 7     condition of the property in Sarajevo which the Subotics had left when

 8     you arrived?

 9        A.   I can.  I was provided an address, a street and house number.

10     Once I arrived there with my bags, I wanted to get in, but more than half

11     of the house was gone.  It was destroyed by a shell.  If it had been in

12     good condition -- a fortnight later, another two shells landed and it

13     wouldn't have amounted to much anyhow.  Had I been in the house at that

14     moment, I would have died too.  In any case, once I approached the house

15     for the first time, I realised that half of it was gone, blown up by a

16     shell.

17        Q.   And were you able to stay there?

18        A.   I couldn't.  There was no way.  There was nowhere to stay.

19        Q.   Next, sir, Mr. Ivetic inquired with you about conflict in Pale

20     municipality.  Were the people in your convoy who you stated were forced

21     to leave Pale, were they fighting then?

22        A.   There were people like myself with wives and children, with their

23     luggage.  It wasn't much to look at.  One couldn't even think they were

24     fighters.  If they were fighters, they would have been arrested, taken

25     away to the police or elsewhere.

Page 3307

 1        Q.   And finally, sir, when you found yourself in the Sarajevo morgue

 2     on 28 August 1995, you said you saw several people there who had passed

 3     away.  Were any of those people wearing military uniforms?

 4        A.   They were all women.  There was seven bodies of women lying next

 5     to each other.  What sort of uniform?  There were no uniforms.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  And that concludes my re-direct.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, is my recollection right that state in

 9     which the witness found the house in Sarajevo already appears in the

10     statement, that it was hit by a shell and that it --

11             MR. TRALDI:  It's briefly discussed in paragraph 61, Your Honour,

12     in P260.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apparently you didn't elicit any further

14     evidence on the matter, so therefore I wonder whether it was needed at

15     all.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has no further questions.

18             Mr. Ivetic, have the questions in re-examination triggered any

19     need for further questions?

20             MR. IVETIC:  They have not, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Crncalo, this concludes your evidence in

22     this court.  I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague

23     and for having answered all the questions that were put to you, both by

24     the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you for allowing

Page 3308

 1     me to tell the truth.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the first thing I'd like to do is decide

 4     on the admission of D54, that is the -- that is admitted into evidence

 5     because there were no objections from the Defence.

 6             Anything other matter you would like to raise?

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  Two brief matters regarding

 8     exhibits.  First, regarding Exhibit P260, Mr. Crncalo's statement,

 9     Mr. Ivetic cross-examined the witness at length about some of the

10     redacted paragraphs from the statement, specifically paragraphs 13 and

11     14.  We would seek leave to replace Exhibit P260 with an unredacted

12     version as a result.

13             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Totally unredacted or to remove the redactions of

15     those paragraphs?

16             MR. TRALDI:  Those two paragraphs, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So that's paragraphs 13 and 13 are then --

18     what did you say to?  No, 13 and 14 are --

19             Mr. Ivetic.

20             MR. IVETIC:  No objection, Your Honour.  And you'll see that

21     that's where my questions came from.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then leave is granted that the -- that P260,

23     the witness's statement, is replaced by a new version in which the

24     paragraphs 13 and 14 are not further redacted.  Are not redacted, I

25     should say.

Page 3309

 1             Any other matter?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  There was one more matter regarding exhibits,

 3     Your Honour.

 4             Regarding Mr. Seselj's speech on 6 May 1991 which the Chamber

 5     inquired about and which was the subject of many of Mr. Ivetic's

 6     questions, we have located the video and transcripts on our exhibit list,

 7     65 ter 22719A.  And I'd invite Mr. Ivetic and the Defence to review those

 8     with a view to agreeing on admission of the exhibit.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  When do we hear from you?

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, if we could perhaps have the weekend we

11     can take a look at that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  After the weekend we hear from you.  If you

13     agree, then of course the Chamber leaves it in your hands who will tender

14     that.  If not, the Chamber will consider whether it will instruct one of

15     the parties to call it.  But we'll first then think about it.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:  With those brief matters having been addressed, Your

19     Honour, I just seek to be excused.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you are excused.

21             Mr. Groome, I know that you --

22             Yes, Mr. Lukic.  Now -- I know -- let me first address you,

23     Mr. Groome.

24             I know that you do not have the half-hour which you intended to

25     take.  Is there any way of briefing the Chamber already in limited time

Page 3310

 1     and then perhaps summarise what you wanted to say and then have the

 2     remainder be submitted in writing or is there any -- I'm trying to find a

 3     practical solution for --

 4             MR. GROOME:  I have actually a practical solution for the use of

 5     the remaining time, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. GROOME:  There was another report that the Chamber requested

 8     for today, and that was -- you requested it last Friday at transcript

 9     page 2858, and if you recall that has to do with the videotape, and you

10     had asked Mr. Ivetic -- or you gave the Defence until today to report on

11     their position.  We did provide the Defence with our preliminary analysis

12     as we had said that we would, and I've asked Ms. Bibles to come into the

13     Chamber so we are prepared to deal with that, and I think that matter

14     probably will fit within the time available remaining.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If that is the case, are you -- any suggestion

16     that you would submit in writing what you wanted to say about the other

17     matter for which you needed half an hour?  The Chamber noticed that often

18     you have prepared your submissions often in writing.  Is there any way

19     that we could speed up without losing time with witnesses on that matter?

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I do do that to try to make sure that I

21     say it as briefly as possible.  Given everything that I'm trying

22     accomplish these day, I'd appreciate just the opportunity to make -- to

23     have this discussion with the Chamber and to not engage in a lengthy

24     submission and counter-submission process.  I think this is just some

25     very -- very practical matters of guidance I'm seeking from the Chamber,

Page 3311

 1     and I think once the Chamber hears it, it's a matter that can move

 2     forward very quickly after that.

 3             And perhaps, Your Honour, I can say in a sentence essentially

 4     what I'll be seeking is we are filing a bar table motion with respect to

 5     the intercepts, and if I can give the Chamber all of the references on

 6     Monday where you've authorised us to do that, we'll file that Monday, and

 7     I believe that will be 19 witnesses if the Chamber were to grant all of

 8     the relief we sought.  I'm also filing on Monday a notice of witnesses we

 9     may not call and that will be about 30 witnesses.

10             So one of the things I am seeking the Chamber's guidance on:  If

11     we can suspend 92 bis applications on those two groups of witnesses,

12     approximately 50 witnesses, until such time a little further down in the

13     process and prioritise our time on the -- the remaining.  And with

14     respect to the remaining, the pace that we're filing them is set by the

15     Chamber's guidance.  We are seeking the ability to file them as soon as

16     we have them done, recognising that that's a lot to ask the Defence to

17     respond to in 14 days, but we feel that once they're before the Chamber

18     and before the Defence they can decide how best to use their resources,

19     and we would not oppose any application under 127 for an amendment of the

20     time-period for them to respond.

21             And I guess that, in a nutshell, was my submission.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome we leave it to that at this very moment

25     then.

Page 3312

 1             Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Just two brief things, Your Honour.

 3             First, the Prosecution filed a motion for additional protective

 4     measures for the Witness 081 and since it's an urgent matter we don't

 5     object to this motion, so we don't have to go through the process.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you very much for that because that was

 7     on my list as well.  It was only yesterday, I think, that the Prosecution

 8     filed that motion for augmentation.  And it's not the first time,

 9     Mr. Groome, that such motions are filed at a time which - as I have it on

10     my list - doesn't give the Defence sufficient time to respond.  So you're

11     invited to avoid in the future to have such late notice.

12             And yesterday you said, Mr. Lukic, you were saved by the bell --

13             MR. LUKIC:  The bell, yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and I think Mr. Groome is saved by your bell at

15     this moment.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just so it's clear, that's a witness

17     that we were trying to advance so that we make full use of the time.  If

18     you remember earlier today, it was only today that we decided that we

19     would call that witness.  We were simply trying to give everyone as much

20     notice as possible.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not dramatically blaming you for it, but of

22     course the Chamber is always a bit concerned if it receives motions where

23     proper time for a Defence response seems to -- not to be there.

24             Thank you, nevertheless, Mr. Lukic, for your quick response.

25             Next matter you would like to raise.

Page 3313

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  I discussed during the break with Mr. Groome

 2     the issue of acceptance of the 65 ter document 28432.  That's the -- the

 3     list with documents.  And I think that I explained to Mr. Groome why --

 4     what was my confusion, and he agreed to tender the same documents through

 5     the same list with the Witness 511.

 6             So for now we are safe.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So the comments are there, the chart is there --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and the underlying documents will be tendered at

10     later stage?

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

12             MR. GROOME:  Yes.  That's roughly it.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber appreciates that the parties

14     agreed on that.

15             Ms. Bibles, about the video.  We do not have much time, but

16     perhaps you could give it a start.

17             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honours.  As you can see I have no

18     prepared comments.  We simply wanted to request whether the Defence was

19     going to answer the question posed last week.  I think it was about

20     the -- basically about the reliability of the video D43 simply to

21     determine whether we do need to proceed with the formal forensic

22     analysis.

23             Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just think about D43, which was the?

25             MR. IVETIC:  If I can help, it was the excerpt --

Page 3314

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The one video, the excerpt from -- was that the --

 2     the journey to Omarska arriving from the south rather than from the

 3     north, to Omarska?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Correct, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  And I believe at the -- at the end of that session

 7     we'd looked at another videotape that -- it appeared to be from the same

 8     angle, and I said I believe it looks to be the same angle.  The videotape

 9     we used we downloaded from the source and did not alter, so it's what it

10     is.  But then after all this questioning, the witness then clarified and

11     said that this all occurred after he heard the shooting.  So it kind of

12     made the whole thing moot because in answers to cross-examination he'd

13     said that this was the time period when the shooting occurred but then he

14     testified later that this was all after the shooting had concluded.

15             So I leave it to Your Honours -- or to the Prosecution as to do

16     with that -- with that exhibit.  We presented it in good faith based upon

17     the original of that video which -- that was given to the Prosecution in

18     full.  So the excerpt that we showed was the actual video as we received

19     it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to -- we had a video, we then had a

21     video with and without sound, and we had a competing video with different

22     sound.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the main concern was about the competing

25     video with the different sound.

Page 3315

 1             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was -- was that D43?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  That was D43 as I recall, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  And you had asked if the competing video that was

 6     shown in re-direct, whether it appeared to be the same camera angle, and

 7     I believe it does appear to be the same camera angle.  That's all I can

 8     say.  I can't go beyond that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Isn't it true that there was more that the

10     Prosecution wanted to also to investigate whether the sound was tampered

11     with?

12             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  That was the issue that we

13     posited to the Court.

14             If I'm understanding Defence counsel, he is suggesting that he

15     downloaded the video D43, and I'm guessing it was from the web site that

16     was featured prominently on the video itself, and I simply would ask if

17     Defence is indicating that they are no longer positing that as a

18     reliable -- at least audio track, with respect to that, and I think that

19     would bring the issue to a halt.

20             MR. IVETIC:  With respect to D43, absolutely.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber will consider whether or not it

22     accepts this as a solution to the matter raised and we will let you know.

23             We then adjourn for the day, with apologies for the late

24     adjournment, and we will resume - let me just check - Monday, is that the

25     1st of October, I think.  Monday, the 1st of October, at 9.30 in the

Page 3316

 1     morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 2                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of October,

 4                           2012, at 9.30 a.m.