Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3317

 1                           Monday, 1 October 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             As far as I understand, there are no preliminaries.  Therefore,

11     could --

12             Mr. Groome.

13             MR. GROOME:  There is one preliminary matter, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

15             MR. GROOME:  Just briefly.

16             Your Honour, I forgot to mention last week with respect to 92 bis

17     the following:  In keeping with the Chamber's guidance, the Prosecution

18     is endeavouring to use statements and not rely on testimony.  But there

19     are a number of cases where there is no suitable statement and the

20     Prosecution is concerned that the process of going out, sending a team

21     out, to take the statement, to bring it back to translate it and -- and

22     should the Chamber grant our 92 bis application to then send another team

23     out from the Registry to swear it or have the witness swear to the

24     statement, would not only be very costly but could delay our ability to

25     complete the 92 bis process, so we are asking the Chamber to consider

Page 3318

 1     giving us an opportunity to file a test case, as it were, of five

 2     witnesses where we believe Mr. McCloskey has been looking at it very

 3     carefully and we believe we can make a selection of prior testimony that

 4     would no more than 30 to 50 pages and we believe would read essentially

 5     like a statement.

 6             So we're a seeking permission from the Chamber to file an

 7     application of five witnesses for which we do not have amalgamated

 8     statement or a statement that's suitable, and that way the way Chamber

 9     would have before it an example of what we think would be suitable

10     evidence to be tendered 98 bis and would be able to make a more informed

11     decision about whether this is a suitable way to proceed.

12             Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any response to this, or ...

14             MR. LUKIC:  You know, we do not like any curving of the rules,

15     and at this moment provisionally we would object.  But if you give us

16     more time we will respond either orally or in a written way.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, if my recollection serves me well, we

18     have expressed our strong preference for statements, and I think that in

19     the guidance, but please, correct me when I'm wrong, there is also

20     something about good cause being shown if it is burdensome for the

21     witnesses.

22             Now whether you have to go twice or whether you can already have

23     the statement translated at a distance and taken at a station right away

24     is a practical matter in which I'll not -- on which I'll not comment at

25     this moment.  But I think that if you make an application which meets

Page 3319

 1     what the Chamber requires to make an exception to what it expects as a

 2     rule, of course, it's difficult to say in advance whether or not we would

 3     agree with it.  Much may depend on the reasons you're giving.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just to say that the category of

 5     witnesses that I'm referring to, I don't think that we would be able to

 6     represent that it would be so distressful -- the process of another

 7     statement that we would meet that retirement of the Chamber.  It is

 8     simply that it would be so time exhuming and costly we submit that there

 9     is a better way to proceed and we'd like an opportunity to demonstration

10     that to the Chamber in a limited filing of five witnesses.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will wait and see what you present,

13     Mr. Groome, and we'll then decide on whether or not it's -- it follows

14     your suggestion that this is the better way to proceed.  Certainly, the

15     amount of pages played a role in expressing our preference for statements

16     rather than for testimony -- transcript of testimony I should say.

17             MR. GROOME:  We will prepare that filing, Your Honour.  Thank

18     you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

20     courtroom.

21             Meanwhile, I'll use the time to deal with a late notification of

22     Rule 92 quater motion.

23             On the 23rd of July of this year, the Prosecution filed a motion

24     for admission of evidence of three witnesses pursuant to Rule 92 quater.

25     For some reason, this filing was not distributed to the Chamber until

Page 3320

 1     last Friday.  There was no Defence response to the motion so the Chamber

 2     allows for the possibility that this filing also never reached the

 3     Defence and, in light of this, the Chamber hereby sets the response

 4     deadline for this filing to the 15th of October, 2012.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness, Mr. Merdzanic, I assume.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

 9     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I

10     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  IDRIZ MERDZANIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Merdzanic, you'll first be examined by

18     Ms. D'Ascoli.  Ms. D'Ascoli is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll

19     find her to your right.

20             Please proceed, Ms. D'Ascoli.

21             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22                           Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:

23        Q.   Sir, can you, first of all, state your full name for the record.

24        A.   My name is Idriz Merdzanic.

25        Q.   And now what is your ethnicity, sir?

Page 3321

 1        A.   I'm a Muslim.

 2        Q.   Mr. Merdzanic, do you remember providing a statement to the ICTY

 3     on 27 and 28 of August 2000?

 4        A.   I do.

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can the Court Officer please display 65 ter 28115

 6     on our screens, which is the witness statement.  And, for the record, we

 7     have uploaded a hand numbered version the statement.

 8        Q.   Mr. Merdzanic, once the document is on the screen before you, can

 9     you please look at the very first page of the English statement and, in

10     particular, the signature at the bottom of the page and can you indicate

11     whether you recognise this signature?

12        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

13        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to read and review this statement

14     in preparation of your testimony today?

15        A.   Yes, I have.  As regards my testimony today, I was given the

16     statement to read it before it began.

17             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I ask the Court Officer to please display

18     65 ter 28444.

19             Your Honours, this was the table of correction and clarification.

20     It has been now assigned a 65 ter number, which is the one that I just

21     mentioned.

22        Q.   Sir, once again, when you can see the document on the screen, can

23     you please have a look at it and can you confirm that you had an

24     opportunity to review this document?

25        A.   Yes.  It is the document I received so that I can review it

Page 3322

 1     before the proceedings.

 2        Q.   And does this document accurately set out the corrections and

 3     clarifications that you wanted to make to your statement?

 4        A.   That is correct.  After I had reviewed my statement, I noticed in

 5     several places that there were things that needed to be corrected.  We

 6     had a conversation about correcting it, and these are the actual

 7     corrections that were made.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And taking into account these changes, these

 9     corrections and clarifications, are you satisfied that the statement is a

10     accurate record of your evidence of what happened and what you

11     experienced, as far as you can remember?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   And if you were asked today the same questions, would you give

14     approximately the -- well, would you give the same answers, in substance,

15     and provide the same information?

16        A.   They would be as reflected in the corrections.

17        Q.   Yes.  And now that you have taken the solemn declaration that you

18     affirm -- that you provided the information in the statement and in the

19     correction and clarifications, in accordance with the truth, and you

20     affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of this statement, as corrected?

21        A.   Yes, I can affirm that.

22             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 28115

23     and 28444, pursuant to Rule 92 ter as public exhibits.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 65 ter 28115.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P269, Your Honours.

Page 3323

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  269 - Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at you, no objections -

 2     is admitted into evidence.

 3             The next one, the corrections and clarification, 28444.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P270, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P270 is admitted into evidence.

 6             It seems that someone is constantly touching his microphone,

 7     which produces noise in our earphones.

 8             Yes, it's gone.

 9             Ms. D'Ascoli.

10             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, there are also -- there were 27

11     associated exhibits to Mr. Merdzanic's statement.  But upon review we

12     decided to not to tender them all but we will only tender eight.  These

13     are five diagrams drawn by the witness and explained in the witness

14     statement and also three of the photos taken by the witness in Trnopolje

15     camp.  If I -- maybe I can enumerate them individually if that can assist

16     so that you also have the correspondence between the 65 ter number and

17     the -- the identification that is used in the statement, because of

18     course the 65 ter number is not in the statement.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps I take them one by one.  The first one

20     is 65 ter 18278.

21             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, which is referred to as IM-1 in the witness

22     statement.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 18278 becomes Exhibit P271,

25     Your Honours.

Page 3324

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 2             65 ter 18421, Ms. D'Ascoli.

 3             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I think 421 is the one that we just read,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we had 278.  Let me just have a look.

 6             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Oh, yes.  I'm sorry, that was my mistake.

 7     Therefore, just for the record, 18278 is IM-4 in the witness statement.

 8             The following one you mentioned, 18421 is IM-1 in the witness

 9     statement.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And receives, Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P272, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             Next one, 18422, diagram IM-5, Ms. D'Ascoli.

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, exactly, diagram IM-4.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Receives, Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P273.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             65 ter 18427, a photograph of the interrogation room, IM-B

19     attached to the 2000 ICTY statement receives.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P274, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. D'Ascoli, when I make a mistake you'll correct

22     me.

23             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I will, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  65 ter 18429, a photograph referred to as IM-D in

25     the statement receives number.

Page 3325

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  P275, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 3             18435, a photograph, taken by the witness, IM-I in the statement

 4     receives.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P276, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             18565, diagram IM-2 receives number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  P277, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

10             18567, diagram referred to as IM-3 in the statement receives

11     number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  P278, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

14             Please proceed, Ms. D'Ascoli.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honours.  With the Chamber's

16     permission I will now briefly summarise Mr. Merdzanic's evidence for the

17     public and the record.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

19             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Idriz Merdzanic is a doctor who worked as

20     physician in the health centres in Kozarac and Trnopolje in 1992.

21             The witness testifies about the attack on Kozarac on 24 May 1992

22     and the shelling of the town which continued for two days.  He provides

23     evidence about his efforts to treat people for injuries received from

24     shelling and infantry weapons and how a number of people died as a result

25     of injuries received during the attack.  And this relates to

Page 3326

 1     Indictment Schedule A 6.1.

 2             He testifies about the surrender of the Muslim population on

 3     26 May 1992 and about seeing Serb soldiers looting houses.  He witnessed

 4     the bussing of many citizens primarily women, children and elderly to

 5     Trnopolje camp, which is in Indictment Schedule C 15.4.

 6             This witness testifies about the conditions at Trnopolje camp

 7     where he was detained from 26 May until the 30 of September, 1992.  As a

 8     doctor in Trnopolje camp, the witness provides unique information about

 9     the conditions in the camp and the camp personnel.  He describes the

10     inhumane conditions of detainees in the camp, including disease, lack of

11     adequate food or hygiene, beatings, rapes and killings occurring in the

12     camp, and this refers to Indictment Schedule B 13.5.

13             The witness also testifies about an increase in the prisoner

14     population of Trnopolje camp due to the attacks and the systematic

15     expulsion of the Muslim population from the villages of Prijedor

16     municipality.

17             And this concludes the summary of evidence, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.

19             MS. D'ASCOLI:

20        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, now that I have summarised your written evidence,

21     I'm going to ask you some questions to expand or clarify upon this

22     evidence.

23             First of all, sir, in 1992, you were employed as a physician

24     under the Prijedor health centre and you worked in many satellite health

25     clinics in the Prijedor municipality; for example, the clinic in Kozarac.

Page 3327

 1             Do you know anything?  Did you ever hear of the dismissals of

 2     non-Serb medical staff from Prijedor and Kozarac health centres in the

 3     first half of 1992 after the takeover of Prijedor?

 4        A.   I had occasion to hear about it after the camp was disbanded,

 5     since my wife was also a physician working at the health centre in

 6     Prijedor.

 7             I learned that the manager of health centre, Mr. Bereta [phoen],

 8     summoned all of the medical employees in early June to come to the centre

 9     where he singled out Muslims and Croats, telling them that they are no

10     longer welcome and that they shouldn't come to work any longer.

11             That's what I learned from my wife.

12        Q.   Okay.  Dr. Merdzanic, I will move to the events in Trnopolje camp

13     where you were detained from 26 May to 30 September.

14             Sir, you say that at the time of your arrival there, you had no

15     idea you had arrived at a prisoner camp.  And, for the record, this is

16     paragraph 26 of your statement.

17             Now my question is:  When did you become aware of that?  When did

18     you form the idea that Trnopolje was a prisoner camp?

19        A.   The next day, or two days later, we learned that we can no longer

20     leave Trnopolje, although no explanation was given as to why.  When

21     Major Kuruzovic arrived we handed over a list of personnel in the

22     outpatient clinic and he told us that none of us was allowed to leave.

23     We also learned and saw, actually, that guard posts were set up around

24     Trnopolje and that no one could leave or enter on their own.

25        Q.   So you say that no explanation was given as to why.

Page 3328

 1             So I take it that you were never told -- or, actually, let me put

 2     it in this way.  Were you ever told at that moment or later on during the

 3     months between May and September were you ever told why you were

 4     detained?

 5        A.   No.  No one ever offered an official explanation.

 6        Q.   And of which ethnicity were the other people also in the camp,

 7     detained at Trnopolje?

 8        A.   Muslims and Croats.

 9        Q.   And, of course, because of your role there in -- in this house

10     clinic there, Trnopolje, you spoke to many people and did any of them

11     told you that they were given a reason, they were told why they were

12     detained in the camp?

13        A.   No, there was no explanation that was given.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. D'Ascoli, it would be helpful if we could

15     have the document on the screen, his statement, P269, with the respective

16     paragraph.

17             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Sure.  I was discussing paragraph 26.

18        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, based on your -- what you experienced and what you

19     saw in Trnopolje, the people you treated, the people you talked to in the

20     camp, I mean, in your opinion why -- what do you think was the purpose of

21     Trnopolje camp?

22        A.   In my opinion, the purpose of the camp at Trnopolje was to

23     implement the process of ethnic cleansing in Prijedor municipality, which

24     was effected by the Serbs moving out entire village populations, village

25     by village.  First, they would separate women and children from

Page 3329

 1     able-bodied men, and they would take the women and children to Trnopolje.

 2     Perhaps there were about 10 per cent of men in the overall number who

 3     arrived.

 4             From Trnopolje, convoys were organised to have the people

 5     transported.  At first, it was by railroad in cattle wagons that were

 6     loaded and the people moved outside the Serb territory, as they referred

 7     to it.

 8             The mopping up, as they called it, of villages was always done in

 9     the same way.  I know that because everyone arriving there was telling

10     basically the same story.  The able-bodied men were imprisoned in other

11     facilities or camps or killed on sight or taken in an unknown direction.

12        Q.   Doctor I have two follow-up questions from what you just told us.

13             First, I want to start from the very last part of your question

14     [sic].  You say:

15             "The mopping up, as they called it, of villages was always done

16     in the same way."

17             What do you mean when you say "as they called it"?  What do you

18     mean by "they"?

19        A.   By "they," I was referring to the Serbs, mainly the military.

20     They would go into the village, round it up, expel the whole population

21     from their houses, and then divided them into groups.  Thereafter, they

22     would be expelled from the village.  Those who were able bodied were

23     mainly taken to Omarska.  A small portion of the population came to us.

24     And then, after that, the villages were either looted or if they didn't

25     have any need for it, they would set houses on fire, including churches

Page 3330

 1     and mosques.  Probably the intention behind that was to prevent people

 2     from ever coming back.

 3        Q.   Sir, my second question in relation to what you told us was -- I

 4     was going to ask you an explanation of what you say in paragraph 38 of

 5     your statement, namely, that the number of women and children and elderly

 6     held in Trnopolje was much higher than the number of military-aged men.

 7     And, as you said today as well, that the military-aged men represented

 8     only the 10 per cent of the population.

 9             And I wanted to ask whether you had an explanation about that and

10     whether you knew where the military-aged men were going but I understand

11     from the answer you just gave us that the military-alleged were mainly

12     taken to other camps, and you mentioned Omarska, in particular.  Is that

13     correct?  Is that your understanding?

14        A.   Those who came to Trnopolje the majority of them remained there

15     so with time the number of men in Trnopolje increased.  They were still

16     searching for some people on a daily basis and if they managed to locate

17     them, they would beat them up or just take them away.

18             As for the others who came from the villages, the able-bodied

19     men, most of them were taken directly from the villages to Keraterm or

20     Omarska, or perhaps some other place.

21        Q.   Okay.  Sir, you also discuss in your statement how the guards

22     would beat detainees.  This is, for example, paragraphs 47 to 51, or 53

23     and 57.

24             And also that rape and sexual assault took place in Trnopolje,

25     perhaps 32 and 33, for the record.  And you also comment upon the few

Page 3331

 1     women who came forward to say that they were actually raped or sexually

 2     sexual assaulted.  This is at paragraph 63 and 66.

 3             Now, Dr. Merdzanic, as a doctor, what can you say about the

 4     physical and psychological impact that rapes and sexual violence had on

 5     these women considering that some of them came forward and talked to you

 6     about that?  What can you tell us about the physical and psychological

 7     impact of these rapes on women?

 8        A.   I believe that the major psychological problem, in addition to

 9     the problem of their possibly becoming pregnant and bearing children to

10     their rapers, there were other social problems in that these women didn't

11     know how to explain that to their families or their husbands, what

12     happened.  And I think that the psychological effects are the worst of

13     all.

14        Q.   Doctor, I would now like to ask you a few questions about the

15     camp authorities.

16             In paragraph 35, you mention that Slobodan Kuruzovic was the camp

17     commander, and you also say that Kuruzovic would take orders from higher

18     officials.  We find this in, for the record, paragraph 36.

19             Doctor, can you tell us what led you to believe that he was

20     receiving instructions from someone superior to him?

21        A.   I think that the basis for that understanding was that every time

22     they first had to wait for an approval from higher level for any convoy.

23     This approval came either from Prijedor municipality or Pale, but I

24     cannot tell you exactly.  Anyway, they waited for an approval for each

25     and every convoy.

Page 3332

 1        Q.   Now, I want to ask you about the deputy commander of the

 2     Trnopolje, Slavko Puhalic, whom you mentioned in paragraph 35.  Could you

 3     describe what he wore in terms of clothing or uniform in the camp.

 4        A.   He was dressed in military camouflage uniform of colour green.

 5        Q.   In your statement you also name the guards who were most involved

 6     in the beatings.  This is paragraph 52.

 7             My question is:  Would the camp commander, Kuruzovic, have been

 8     aware of killings in the camps, beating and sexual assault, which the

 9     detainees were subjected by the camp guards, insofar as you know or

10     insofar as you have seen?

11        A.   I think that he did know, although he personally never beat

12     anyone.

13        Q.   What about the deputy commander, Slavko Puhalic, would he have

14     known about it?

15        A.   Slavko Puhalic certainly knew about it, because Slavko Puhalic

16     was one of those who called people by name, such as the relatives of

17     Gutic who was a student working with us in the clinic.  After he had

18     learnt that the two were there, he called two uniformed men in military

19     uniforms from Prijedor and took them to a room where they beat them.  And

20     after that, they drove them away in a small vehicle.  That indicates that

21     Slavko Puhalic must have known about this.

22        Q.   And as far as you know, were these beatings or killings ever

23     either investigated or -- was any action taken about them?  In

24     particular, did Kuruzovic do anything about these beatings or killings

25     that were happening in the camp, for what you have seen?

Page 3333

 1        A.   No.  No investigation was ever conducted concerning the killings

 2     and the beatings.

 3        Q.   And was any action ever taken by Kuruzovic directly in the camp

 4     to stop this?

 5        A.   No.  Not with regard the people being taken away - the beatings

 6     and the killings - not that I know of.  I don't know if he undertook any

 7     measures.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Dr. Merdzanic, now I would like to ask you a few questions

 9     about the visit of journalists to Trnopolje camp on the

10     4th of August, 1992, authorised by Karadzic.  And you mention this at

11     paragraph 70 to 72 of your statement.

12             My question is:  What did the camp guards or officers in the camp

13     do when they knew of the arrival of journalists in Trnopolje?

14        A.   They first attempted to remove as many inmates from the camp as

15     possible.  For that purpose, they organised a convoy in which nearly all

16     the women and the children left the camp.  The first male convoy was

17     organised, and the first such convoy that I photographed left Trnopolje

18     and so they provided space in Trnopolje in order to be able to bring in

19     the inmates from Keraterm and then from Omarska.  Later on, we found out

20     that they had completely closed down Keraterm and transferred the inmates

21     from Keraterm to Trnopolje, and some of them were taken or actually one

22     group of the people confined in a hangar were just shot dead one morning,

23     and one group completely disappeared.

24             They applied the same practice with Omarska.  A group of inmates

25     were sent to Manjaca, another group was kept in Omarska, but they were

Page 3334

 1     given beds and food to be shown to the journalists.  And a third group,

 2     they hid in lorries and buses so that after Penny Marshall had left, they

 3     were brought to us at Trnopolje.

 4        Q.   Let me clarify this bit by bit.

 5             You mention the arrival of people from Trnopolje -- sorry, from

 6     Keraterm and Omarska; for example, you mentioned that a group of

 7     detainees was transferred to Trnopolje from Keraterm, after the

 8     journalist visit on 4th of August.  This is in paragraph 53 of your

 9     statement.

10             So I guess you speak to them while you were in Trnopolje.  You

11     speak to these detainees coming from Keraterm; right?

12        A.   Yes.  We had an opportunity to talk later.  Initially we were not

13     allowed to speak with them, but as soon as the journalists arrived, they

14     were actually in Trnopolje camp in a part which was fenced in order to

15     keep them separate from us.

16             Later on, after Penny Marshall had left and the news about the

17     camps was broken, they soon thereafter removed this wire fence, and

18     people were able to move freely, and their relatives from Prijedor and

19     other places were allowed to come in and bring food to the prisoners.

20        Q.   And when you finally -- when you got the chance of speaking to

21     these people that were transferred to Trnopolje from Keraterm, what did

22     they say, if anything, about what happened in the hangars at Keraterm?

23        A.   Well, they told us that they had been beaten down there

24     regularly.  They described this hangar, that one morning machine-guns

25     were placed there, that the gates were open, and that some 200 people

Page 3335

 1     were shot dead inside the hangar.

 2             At the beginning, we were rather reluctant to believe that

 3     something like that could happen.  But later on I met Enes Crljenkovic, a

 4     man who survived the shooting in the hangar, and after I had talked to

 5     him I became convinced that that was the truth.

 6        Q.   I see that the name of the survivor that you mention has not been

 7     captured in the transcript.  Would you mind -- so his first name is Enes.

 8     Would you mind spelling the last name for the record, please.  His family

 9     name?

10        A.   Crljenkovic.  It's C-r-l-j-e-n-k-o-v-i-c.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I have the same questions also with regard to

12     the detainees that were transferred from Omarska.  You mentioned this in

13     paragraph 71 of your statement.  What did they tell you, if anything?

14     What did they tell you about what happened in Omarska camp?

15        A.   As far as I heard, inspectors from Prijedor and Banja Luka as

16     they referred them to, came on a regular basis to interrogate the

17     inmates.  They were beaten on a regular basis.  And that there was a

18     facility called the white house.  Anyone who was taken to the white house

19     never returned.

20        Q.   Doctor.  Let's go back to the first visit by journalists when

21     Penny Marshall and other international journalists came to the camp on

22     4 August 1992.

23             You describe this in paragraph 72 to 73 of your statement.

24     There, you say that when they came to the clinic, a Serb medical

25     technician, missing an arm, Mica Kobas, was present.  And you didn't dare

Page 3336

 1     say anything.

 2             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Now, I would like to show you a clip taken from

 3     the video filmed at Trnopolje camp during this first visit of Marshall

 4     and other journalists.  This is it 65 ter 22591A, which is a clip of a

 5     little over a minute taken from a video by the ITN.  The originator was

 6     Penny Marshall.  The video was sized by the OTP from ITN in June 1996.

 7             Now for the record the frame we selected correspond to minutes

 8     00:00:28 to 00:01:45 of the original video which bear the 65

 9     ter number 22591 from which the clip has been created.

10             I will now ask Ms. Stewart to play this video but before we play

11     twice I would like first to show some frames so that I can ask some

12     preliminary questions to -- to the witness.  So I would ask Ms. Stewart

13     to --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  -- please stop at the very first images of the

16     video.  I think this would be second 4 so that I can ask the witness a

17     preliminary question.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you provided the booth with the transcripts or

19     are there no words spoken?

20             MS. D'ASCOLI:  We do have transcripts of the video which are

21     uploaded in e-court, are then provided to the booth -- ah, okay,

22     Ms. Stewart did.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, in two languages?

24             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, in two languages, B/C/S and English.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 3337

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can we please stop here.

 3        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, can you describe what you see what is depicted in

 4     this frame?

 5        A.   This is a waiting-room at the clinic.  The man in the forefront,

 6     that's me.  The person to the right in white coat is a Serb called Mica

 7     who was present there.  And --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't catch the last

 9     part of the answer.

10             MS. D'ASCOLI:

11        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, can you please repeat the name of the Serb you

12     just mentioned.  The name wasn't captured in the transcript.

13        A.   His name was Mica Kobas.

14        Q.   So this is the person you described in paragraph 70 to 73 of your

15     statement, the Serb who was present in the clinic when the journalists

16     arrived; correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I now ask --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. D'Ascoli, I'm a little bit confused about the

20     man in the forefront and the person to the right in a white coat.  I see

21     two persons with white clothing:  One to the right of a person who is a

22     little bit further down, and one to the left of him.

23             Which one is you?

24             MS. D'ASCOLI:  This -- the person -- Mica Kobas is the first --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking the witness.  I'm asking the witness.

Page 3338

 1             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Oh.  Yes.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person in the middle, facing

 3     forward, that's me.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you --

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  If we can go back to 00:04.  Mica Kobas is more

 6     visible.  Yeah, exactly.  This is the frame --

 7        Q.   Witness, can you confirm that this is Mica Kobas who was missing

 8     an arm and is visible from the video?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, that is correct.  He had only one arm.  That's

10     Mica Kobas.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. D'Ascoli, in order to understand the testimony

12     we have to put on the record what we saw a minute ago which was not at

13     4 seconds but 5 seconds, 40, approximately, was it?

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, exactly.  At 5 seconds we saw Mica Kobas

15     moving at the very front.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's at 5.4 and we later looked at 4.4.

17             MS. D'ASCOLI:  4, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can we now continue playing the video and stop at

20     approximately 19 seconds.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MS. D'ASCOLI:

23        Q.   We actually stopped at 18.7.

24             And now I'll ask the witness to describe what -- the persons we

25     see in the video.

Page 3339

 1        A.   The one in the foreground, that's me.  Behind me is Gutic Vasif,

 2     a medical student.  And the person sitting down is one of the patients.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 4             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Now we can play the video one time for the

 5     interpreters and then a second time for the courtroom.  From the

 6     beginning, please.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MS. D'ASCOLI:  And now the video will be played a second time,

 9     and we will have the transcript from the booths.  The translation.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             "[Voiceover] Penny Marshall:  Does he get any cases here of

12     people who'd been beaten in other camps?

13             "Merdzanic:  Yes.

14             "Penny Marshall:  Many?

15             "You have a lot of medicine or do you need more medicine?  Need

16     more medicine?

17             "Merdzanic:  Yes.

18             "Penny Marshall:  You are working very hard, hard work.

19             "Merdzanic:  Hard.  I'm in the camp as the others.

20             "Penny Marshall:  Do you speak Russian or English?

21             "Interpreter:  Do you speak Russian or English?

22             "Penny Marshall:  Would you be happy to speak in another

23     language?

24             "Merdzanic:  Just a little Russian.

25             "Penny Marshall ...

Page 3340

 1             Conversation conditions in Russian.

 2             MS. D'ASCOLI:

 3        Q.   Doctor, I have only a couple of questions with regard to what we

 4     saw, as you described already what was depicted.  During this interview

 5     with the journalists in your clinic, did you feel free to talk and

 6     describe the situation in the camp?

 7        A.   We were not allowed to speak freely because Mico Kobas was

 8     present there.  We tried to give a signal to Penny Marshall that we

 9     wanted to remain alone with her, and I think that eventually she got the

10     message, and she asked Mico Kobas to leave the room for a short while.

11             At first, he refused to do that, and they entered into an

12     altercation, after which he did leave the room for about a minute or two.

13     And during that time, we managed to hand over the camera that we used

14     beforehand to make a couple of photos.  She wanted to --

15        Q.   Sorry, you can complete your sentence and then I'll have a last

16     question.

17        A.   She wanted to give us the camera back and keep only the film, but

18     we were afraid that the Serbs would find the camera, so we gave her

19     everything.

20        Q.   Doctor, my last question about this video.

21             At some point after -- immediately after Penny Marshall ask you

22     about the cases of beatings in the camp, we see -- you don't answer, and

23     we see a strange expression on your face.  How would you describe that

24     expression that you had?

25        A.   I don't know myself how I would describe it exactly.  This was

Page 3341

 1     our chance to hand over that camera.  In a way, we tried to make her

 2     realise that we could not talk to her properly while Mica was present

 3     there, and that we wanted to talk to her on our own.

 4        Q.   Thank you, doctor.

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I see it's time for the break, after

 6     which I will only have one other clip to show to the witness, and that

 7     will conclude my examination.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because it was indicated that you would need

 9     45 minutes.

10             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You're now at 50 minutes, I think.

12             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I think so -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... therefore, we'll take a

14     break.  But, first, could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to

17     11.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

21             I, meanwhile, put on the record that when I invited you,

22     Ms. D'Ascoli, to correct any mistake I made, at that same moment I made a

23     mistake.  I had forgotten to rule on the admission of P274, which is

24     hereby done.

25             P274 is admitted into evidence.

Page 3342

 1             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I forgot to ask for

 2     the admission into evidence as a public exhibit of 65 ter 22591A, the

 3     video that we just showed to the witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection?  No objection.

 5             Madam Registrar the number would be.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22591A becomes Exhibit P279,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P279 is admitted into evidence.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.

11             Ms. D'Ascoli.

12             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, I will now ask you to have a look at another clip

14     from a video.  This is 65 ter 22471A, which is a clip of approximately a

15     minute, taken from a video titled:  Dzavid, part 2, which was brought to

16     the Tribunal in January 2000 by Nasret Sivac [phoen], former journalist

17     in Prijedor.

18             For the record the frames we selected correspond to minute 00:37

19     to 00:38 of the original video which bear 65 ter number 22471.

20             I will now ask Ms. Stewart to play 65 ter 22471, and before we do

21     so, if we can stop at this very first image of the video so that I can

22     ask the witness a preliminary question.  Yeah, exactly.  At the -- 00,

23     the very beginning of the video.

24             Dr. Merdzanic, do you recognise the man who is being interviewed

25     here, the man on the left-hand side of the screen, with the white shirt?

Page 3343

 1        A.   That is Dr. Stakic, who worked in Omarska and who was in the SDS.

 2     He held a post there.  I cannot remember what it was exactly.  I've

 3     forgotten.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  This clip can now be played one time, first for

 6     the interpreters who have been provided with English and B/C/S

 7     transcripts, and then a second time for the courtroom.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I will now ask Ms. Stewart to play the video a

10     second time.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             "[Voiceover]:  We are talking to Milomir Stakic, president of the

13     Prijedor municipal Crisis Staff.  Mr. President, please describe to us

14     the situation in the territory that is under your control.

15             "Milomir Stakic:  Well, I can tell you and the viewers that the

16     whole territory of Prijedor municipality is under our control, which I

17     can confirm following the liberation of Kozarac.  The town, Serb

18     settlements or neighbourhoods and smaller enclaves with Muslim population

19     have been under our control since the takeover of power on 30th April,

20     and now, after the fall of Kozarac, the entire municipality is under our

21     control.  In Kozarac itself, this operation of mopping up, as the

22     military call it, is still under way because those who have stayed behind

23     are the most extreme ones and professionals."

24             MS. D'ASCOLI:

25        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, I want to -- I want to ask you to comment upon a

Page 3344

 1     couple of things that Dr. Stakic said in this interview.

 2             First of all, "The whole territory of Prijedor municipality is

 3     under our control which can I confirm following the liberation of

 4     Kozarac."

 5             Dr. Merdzanic, you have experienced the takeover of Kozarac and

 6     the situation in the Prijedor municipality.  Can you confirm or not, on

 7     the basis of what you saw in the territory of Prijedor that the Prijedor

 8     municipality was under Serb control -- control, following the takeover of

 9     Kozarac?

10        A.   That is correct.  He himself said that the military unit took

11     over Prijedor on the 30th of April.  It was only Kozarac, and I think

12     Hambarine and Carakova that were left.  When these two locations fell,

13     then Serbs had full control over the municipality of Prijedor.

14        Q.   Next, can you comment on the expression that Dr. Stakic used,

15     "the liberation of Kozarac"?

16        A.   Well, "liberation."  If it weren't sad, it would be ludicrous.

17     In Kozarac almost 100 per cent, or at any rate over 95 per cent of the

18     population was Muslim.  That's the way it had been always.  Who did they

19     liberate it from?  They killed people, they expelled them from their

20     homes, and then they claim to have liberated Kozarac.  Liberated of whom

21     and for whom?

22        Q.   And, finally, can you comment upon -- about the last expressions

23     that you used that I think has been here translated with "the mopping up

24     of the territory as the military call it."

25             Can you tell us what you intend -- what's your understanding of

Page 3345

 1     mopping up of the territory, as the military use the term?

 2        A.   They use that all the time when we were in Trnopolje, at the camp

 3     there.  They kept saying that they were mopping up or cleansing, one

 4     village after the other.  Although it's not logical now when they say

 5     that they had full control over Kozarac.

 6             Why would they do that in all the villages then?  There was no

 7     fighting.  There was no resistance.  Why did they carry out this

 8     cleansing or mopping up or, rather, this expulsion of the Serbs -- or,

 9     rather, the non-Serbs from their homes.  They were being killed too.

10     They called that "ciscani [phoen]."

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Mopping up as a military

12     term, cleansing as well.

13             MS. D'ASCOLI:

14        Q.   And just to clarify the record you say carrying out the expulsion

15     of the non-Serbs; right?

16        A.   That's right.

17        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Merdzanic.  I don't have any further questions for

18     you.

19             MS. D'ASCOLI:  And, Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 22471A into

20     evidence as public exhibit.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22471A becomes Exhibit P280,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             MS. D'ASCOLI:  And that concludes my examination, Your Honours.

Page 3346

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.

 2             Mr. Lukic, you'll cross-examine the witness, I take it.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Merdzanic, you'll now be cross-examined by

 5     Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 6             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, doctor.

10        A.   Good day, Mr. Lukic.

11        Q.   It's been a long time since we've seen each other, since Stakic.

12             Doctor, the title speaks for itself, that you are more than we

13     will educated.  Nevertheless, I have to ask you about some kind of

14     special education and training, whether you have that because of certain

15     special legal aspects of this trial.

16             Do you have any formal training or did you study social relations

17     between or among separate social groups?

18        A.   I have no special training --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the end of the

20     sentence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last part of your answer

22     because the interpreters did not catch it.

23             You have no special training in what?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no special training in terms

25     of studying these social relations among ethnic groups.

Page 3347

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Is it also correct that you do not have any formal training in

 3     political science and that you never studied the causes of the war?

 4        A.   I have not completed any kind much of political science school.

 5        Q.   Did you study military strategy and artillery ballistics?

 6        A.   I did not study that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did you study military command and control?

 8        A.   No, I did not.  Just like all others from the former Yugoslavia,

 9     I did my military service, so I roughly saw how this worked.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You have not been trained as a lawyer; right?

11        A.   I have not been train as a lawyer, that's right.

12        Q.   You did not study demographics either?

13        A.   Not particularly.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, why not ask the witness whether he

16     studied anything else, the medicine, and whether he has any experience as

17     in when he did his military service.  Then we have excluded.  Because you

18     can ask him whether he studied gastronomy -- or, I mean, let's try to

19     keep it simple.

20             MR. LUKIC:  This is in line with our objections we filed on

21     92 ter motion for this witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm not saying it is irrelevant to know but

23     why not as it in a --

24             MR. LUKIC:  In the future we can do that way.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You just ask:  Did you study anything else

Page 3348

 1     than medicine and is your military experience, does it go beyond what you

 2     experienced when you were serving in the military.

 3             Then in one or two questions you have exactly the information

 4     which now takes two pages.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not depriving you from the information.  I'm

 7     just encouraging you to obtain it as quickly as possible.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Also, actually we're going to abandon this area

10     now and we are going to move on.

11             In this case, it has been already been established that Muslims

12     and Croats did not respond to military call-up.  You added that people

13     were hiding so that they could not be found by those who were enforcing

14     the military call-up; is that right?

15        A.   That's right.

16        Q.   Even some Serbs did not respond to the military call-up; is that

17     correct?

18        A.   That's correct, too.

19        Q.   I'm waiting for the interpretation, so I'm pausing.

20             People were hiding because they could have been prosecuted and

21     convicted.

22        A.   As far as I know, those who did not respond to the call-up would

23     lose their jobs or, for example, if they were policemen, if they did not

24     sign an oath of loyalty to the Serbs and the Serb republic, they could no

25     longer stay on in the police force.

Page 3349

 1        Q.   Are we talking about 1992 or 1991?  What you said just now, in

 2     your answer.

 3        A.   As far as I know, that was 1992.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now we are going to deal with the takeover in

 5     Prijedor.

 6             You yourself said that the Serbs bragged, saying that they had

 7     taken over without having fired a single bullet; is that correct?

 8        A.   Overnight a military unit arrived from Croatia and took over

 9     Prijedor overnight, as far as I know, without firing a single bullet.

10        Q.   Thank you.  After the takeover of Prijedor, did normal life

11     continue in town?

12        A.   Normal life did not continue in town.  A curfew was imposed.

13     Also, searches started, searches of houses.  They were saying that they

14     were looking for concealed weapons, and they started interrogating

15     people.  People were taken to the police station, interrogated, and

16     beaten.

17        Q.   Now I'm going to focus my questions on the period from the 30th

18     of April, that is to say, the date of takeover, until the 22nd of

19     May when the conflict in Hambarine broke out.  So I would like to ask you

20     that we focus on these 20 or so days.  Did people continue going to work

21     except for those who held political office and who, through this change

22     or coup were removed from these political positions?

23        A.   At that time most people still went to work except for some who

24     were hiding so as not to be send to the front in Croatia.

25        Q.   Would you agree with me that after the takeover this situation

Page 3350

 1     suited the Serbs, that they had an interest in not having anything

 2     changed?

 3        A.   I wouldn't put it that way, as far as I know.  Actually, could

 4     you tell me why the Serbs took over Prijedor in the first place?

 5     Democratic elections had taken place.  If they were satisfied with that,

 6     why did they want a military takeover of Prijedor?

 7        Q.   Probably my question was not very precise.

 8             I meant after the takeover were they satisfied with the

 9     situation?  I mean, if we want to call it this mini coup d'etat.

10        A.   You have to ask the Serbs about that.

11        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  This situation, did it suit you, the

12     Muslims, this Serb takeover in Prijedor?

13        A.   At first I thought -- well, in principle, people were not

14     satisfied with that but they did not do anything about it, for as long as

15     the Serbs left them in peace.  However, after the takeover, they were no

16     longer left in peace.  Searches started, and people were being taken

17     away.

18        Q.   From the 22nd of May until the 30th of May, three attacks took

19     place:  In Hambarine, Kozarac, and Prijedor.  Do you know what actually

20     happened in Hambarine?

21        A.   I don't know exactly.  I heard that -- I mean, Hambarine is also

22     a Muslim area and Serbs wished to enter Hambarine.  The

23     Territorial Defence had check-points there, or guards, and there was a

24     conflict.  And in that conflict, there were some fatalities.

25        Q.   You say that conflicts took place.  Did you hear of any Muslims

Page 3351

 1     being wounded or killed in the conflict?

 2        A.   I was not there, but I know one thing.  It wasn't Muslims from

 3     Carakovo that attack the Prijedor.  But it is the other way around, Serbs

 4     from Prijedor attacked Carakovo.

 5        Q.   Did you hear that, actually, fire had been opened on people who

 6     were in a passenger car at Hambarine check-point?

 7        A.   I cannot answer that.  I wouldn't know the answer.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now I'm going to move on to the ultimatum to Kozarac.

 9             Do you know that a military column was moving along the road from

10     Banja Luka to Prijedor?

11        A.   I'm not aware of that.

12        Q.   So you don't know that the military column had been attacked and

13     that the first driver in this military truck had been killed.

14        A.   This is the first time I hear of it.  From you.  Now.

15        Q.   That means that you also did not hear that the column that was

16     moving to Prijedor actually stopped in Jakupovici just before Kozarac?

17        A.   How could it be stopped when Serbs held the entire road from

18     Prijedor to Banja Luka?  There were tanks there and check-points.  They

19     held the entire road under their control.  Even the intersection at

20     Kozarac.  That's where there was a tank too.

21        Q.   I'm asking you whether you heard of the attack against the

22     military column in Jakupovici on 24th of May, 1992?

23        A.   I've not heard of that.

24        Q.   So there was a ultimatum that was issued before this date.  And

25     before this date is it correct that in Kozarac people in uniform and

Page 3352

 1     people out of uniform carried weapons?

 2        A.   As far as I know, most people who had weapons either had

 3     Territorial Defence uniforms or -- what was he called?  Esad Cirkin.

 4     Civilians.  There weren't very many civilians who carried weapons.

 5        Q.   Have you heard of the Territorial Defence of Kozarac having three

 6     and a half thousand members?

 7        A.   Oh, come on.  Don't exaggerate.  There weren't that many

 8     inhabitants in th first place.

 9        Q.   Did you take part in the arming of Kozarac?

10        A.   No, I did not.

11        Q.   Did you see the weapons being brought in?  Were you present?

12        A.   I have never even heard of weapons being brought into Kozarac.

13        Q.   So you don't know what kind of weapons there were in Kozarac and

14     how many?

15        A.   I don't know because I was at the infirmary and it's only once or

16     a few times that I went to the outskirts of Kozarac where Cirkin was.

17        Q.   Now that we have been mentioning Cirkin, you saw 15 persons in

18     uniform around him?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.  That's where they were.  And perhaps at the

20     positions there were others, but I cannot say.

21        Q.   What kind of uniforms did they wear?

22        A.   They also had similar military uniforms, green military uniforms,

23     and uniforms of the Territorial Defence.

24        Q.   At the time did you know, or did you find out later, who

25     Sead Cirkin's superior was?

Page 3353

 1        A.   I do not know about him having any kind of superior.

 2        Q.   Do you know who was in his staff?

 3        A.   I don't know who was on his staff.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5        A.   You're welcome.

 6        Q.   Do you remember exactly what the wording was of the ultimatum of

 7     the Serb authorities to Kozarac?

 8        A.   As far as I know, an ultimatum was issued with the date of

 9     surrender, when they were supposed to surrender.  I cannot tell you

10     exactly what the ultimatum was.  I was just a civilian there working at

11     the infirmary.  I just heard from other people what was going on.  I was

12     not organised from a political point of view, from a military point of

13     view.  I did not belong to the authorities in any way, so I would not

14     have any insight as to how this exactly developed.

15        Q.   Did you know then or do you know now who issued the ultimatum?

16        A.   I know that one of the negotiators was Stojan Zupljanin.  Now, as

17     for who issued the ultimatum, I really can't say.

18        Q.   Very well.  Did you learn that Zupljanin issued an order that it

19     wasn't mandatory in -- for Prijedor and another municipality?

20        A.   I am unaware of that.

21        Q.   In the conflict which preceded, you were tasked by Sead Cirkin to

22     set up a plan for medical assistance for those who might get wounded.

23        A.   It is completely incorrect.  Sead Cirkin provided no instruction

24     or order to me to set up an outpatient clinic.

25        Q.   You say you were in contact with him, and he told you to do

Page 3354

 1     things by yourself and to set up a health clinic.

 2        A.   It's not correct in the way you put it.  He provided no

 3     instruction.  There was about -- there were about ten civilians who

 4     gathered, and we decided to help civilians and people who might be

 5     injured.  It had nothing to do with the TO or Sead Cirkin.

 6        Q.   You said that you wanted to assist the civilians and people who

 7     might become injured.

 8        A.   Anyone who needed assistance.

 9        Q.   Including soldiers?

10        A.   Yes.  Even Serb soldiers.  We even had a Serb soldier who was

11     wounded.

12        Q.   Thank you.  We have that in your statement.

13        A.   I make no difference.  A patient is a patient.

14        Q.   Let us move onto the issue of fighting in Kozarac.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have exhibit

16     65 ter 18273.

17        Q.   It is still not on our screen, doctor.  We will dwell on this

18     topic briefly.  It is a map.  We see the title:  Kozarac-Omarska

19     Overview.

20             So this is supposed to indicate the area of Kozarac and Omarska?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can you mark for us where that tank was which you mentioned?

23        A.   Oh, the image is gone.

24        Q.   Do bear with us.

25             Place a T where you think the tank was.

Page 3355

 1        A.   At the intersection, approximately where the red dot is.  That's

 2     where the tank was placed even before the attack and ultimatum.

 3        Q.   Please use the pen again to mark Jakupovici for us, both Gornji

 4     and Donji Jakupovici.

 5        A.   I don't see them here.

 6        Q.   It should be in the direction of Banja Luka.

 7        A.   Oh, yes, here.  Jakupovici.  Gornji Jakupovici.  As for Donji,

 8     yes, this is where they are.

 9        Q.   Did you see any tanks there?

10        A.   I did not leave Kozarac at the time.

11        Q.   Thank you.  We are done with the map.

12             While you served your military term --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you want to tender it, Mr. Lukic?

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, map marked by the witness.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Map 18273 as marked by the witness in court

17     becomes Exhibit P281 Your Honours.

18             Sorry, I apologise, it should receive D number.  So it becomes

19     Exhibit D55, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D55 is admitted into evidence.

21             Mr. Lukic, may I ask you what kind of a map this is.  Is this,

22     again, such a map with a not 90-degrees projection, but ...

23             MR. LUKIC:  My understanding is this is more sketch.  We received

24     it from the Prosecution.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 3356

 1             MR. LUKIC:  So ...

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, I see that there's a scale of

 3     kilometres.  Now scales indicating kilometres do not work on maps unless

 4     they are 90 degrees projected maps; because, otherwise, it distorts the

 5     distances, et cetera.

 6             I would urge the parties only to use maps which are free from

 7     such distortion.  Mr. Groome, the Prosecution, I've noticed in many other

 8     cases is very good at providing maps which are of a bad quality because

 9     they are not the 90 degree projection, just from the top to the bottom

10     but rather under a certain angle.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I can investigate this particular map

12     and see what its projection is.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because distances, we get lost if we do not

14     have the right projection.  But for the purpose of this marking, I think

15     it's no real problem.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Doctor you said that you served your regular

20     military term and you told us where.

21             Let me ask you this:  Were you in contact with any artillery

22     units while serving in the army?

23        A.   No, not directly.

24        Q.   In your statement, you say that shells fell and exploded

25     incessantly.  One could say that it was around-the-clock shelling for two

Page 3357

 1     days.  These are paragraphs 12 through to 18 of your statement.

 2             Let me ask you this:  Kozarac and its environs it is a densely

 3     populated area, is it not?

 4        A.   You can see it on a map.  It depends what standard you apply.  By

 5     European standards it is not densely populated.  Perhaps in Balkan terms

 6     it might be.

 7        Q.   How many inhabitants were there in the area at the time in

 8     Kozarac and Kozarusa?

 9        A.   I really don't know.

10        Q.   How many wounded were there, due to the shelling?

11        A.   I don't know exactly.  I can only say that as for those who

12     managed to reach us because due to the shelling very few did, there

13     were --

14        Q.   Can you offer a figure?  I counted 6 or 7 people.  I don't know

15     if I'm mistaken.

16        A.   There was one dead there.  There was one with a wound to the

17     thorax; two children; two women.  Well, a total of nine, I think.

18        Q.   Well, you're better placed to know the figure.  We'll accept

19     that.

20             At a certain point on the 25th of May, 1992, the shelling

21     stopped; correct?

22        A.   Yes.  I can repeat:  When the shelling began on the 24th, it went

23     non-stop throughout the night until the next day.  Then there was a short

24     break of two to three hours.  Perhaps there were talks going on, or

25     something else.  And then shelling resumed until the next day, when there

Page 3358

 1     was a surrender.

 2        Q.   You have partially answered my next question.  I wanted to ask

 3     you if you knew about the negotiations in the midst of fighting?

 4        A.   I was not privy to that.

 5        Q.   It is obvious that the negotiation round on the 25th was

 6     unsuccessful since the shelling resumed.

 7        A.   I really can't answer that question.

 8        Q.   Did you have occasion to hear on Radio Prijedor what it was all

 9     about?

10        A.   Before the attack on Kozarac, the Serbs cut off all telephone

11     lines and there was no -- there were no radio reports of any attacks.

12             In any case, I heard nothing.

13        Q.   Did you see civilians leaving Prijedor -- sorry, Kozarac for

14     Prijedor, since they were called upon to leave Kozarac and come to

15     Prijedor to take shelter because of the fighting?

16        A.   I never heard about that.  How was one to leave if there was

17     shelling non-stop?  Kozarac was being shelled where the houses and

18     civilians were rather than any positions.

19        Q.   Did you hear about it later, that many civilians, indeed,

20     followed the instruction and took shelter in Prijedor with their families

21     and relatives?

22        A.   People could not leave Kozarac because of the shelling.  Only

23     once Kozarac surrendered the civilians were supposed to leave.

24             I don't know what the situation was in the outskirts though.  I

25     was in the hospital all the time, and I only have partial information.  I

Page 3359

 1     don't know what was taking place further afield.  I really can't say.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you learn later, or perhaps at the time, that

 3     wounded people kept arriving in the Prijedor hospital, both Serbs and

 4     Muslims, throughout the conflict?

 5        A.   I am not familiar with that.

 6        Q.   You said yourself that after the clash, the wounded were

 7     transferred to Prijedor to the hospital; correct?

 8        A.   No.  I said that the wounded were the first to leave.  There was

 9     this Lugar, who was Serb, and a boy.  They were taken to Prijedor.  The

10     boy died later on.  There was another wounded person in the chest, and a

11     driver, but they were taken to Omarska, to the camp.

12        Q.   What are the names of the two people who were directly taken to

13     Omarska?

14        A.   One of them was the husband of Azra, the vet, the veterinarian.

15     And for the other one --

16        Q.   Was his last name Blazevic?

17        A.   I think his last name was different.

18        Q.   If you can recall.  If not, let us move on.

19        A.   I can't.  The other person was Sefik.  I believe that was his

20     first name.  I can't recall the last name.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Let us discuss the surrender of Kozarac now.

22             You said that Nihad Bahonjic was singled out and killed when they

23     reached you.  He was your driver; correct?

24        A.   It was not when they reached us at the outpatient clinic.  We

25     were taken from the outpatient clinic on foot to the centre of Kozarac.

Page 3360

 1     We waited there for a while -- for a while, and that's when he was

 2     singled out.  When they were -- when we were picked up by a military

 3     jeep, we heard two shots being fired.

 4        Q.   Do you know if he participated in attacks on certain Serbs

 5     immediately preceding that period?

 6        A.   I know that while I was in Kozarac, during the attack, he was

 7     with us, throughout.

 8        Q.   Why was he singled out?  Was it a kind of revenge?  What was your

 9     impression?

10        A.   I really don't know.  They asked him for an ID.  He did so.  And

11     that's when he was taken away.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Even after the surrender, some remained fighting.

13     Some of the fighters withdrew to -- towards Mount Kozara?

14        A.   As far as I know, the police force surrendered and they were all

15     killed immediately after the surrender.  Cirkin, with his men, set off

16     across Mount Kozara.  They were captured later on.  So if we compare how

17     many of them were captured, which was about a dozen with your figure, you

18     mentioned 3.000.  This is an illustration of how many people there were.

19        Q.   Did you hear about a counter-attack on Kozarac in an attempt to

20     seize it again by Muslim forces which were led by Kemal Alagic, aka

21     Divljak?

22        A.   I can't say anything about that.  By that time I was in the camp

23     in Trnopolje.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Let us move on to Trnopolje then, which is

25     paragraph 26 and onwards in your statement.

Page 3361

 1             Which facilities or around which facilities were people situated,

 2     those people who were brought at Trnopolje?

 3        A.   There was an outpatient clinic and the local commune building as

 4     well as the cultural hall.  Some were there, while others were in the

 5     school.  When there was no more room there, they were also placed in the

 6     construction material store.  When that became full, people were forced

 7     to sleep outside on the grass, between the school and the hall, up as far

 8     as afield as the pitch.

 9        Q.   In the vicinity of Trnopolje, where these people were

10     accommodated, there's a railroad track; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   When was this railway built?

13        A.   I wouldn't know that.  This was the railway that connected

14     Banja Luka, Prijedor, and further on, towards Zagreb, as far as I know.

15        Q.   We can agree that it was built tens of years before that.

16        A.   I can't give you an answer.

17        Q.   Can we agree, then, that this was not something that was built

18     prior to the event.

19        A.   No, no, no.  It was there already, and they knew very well that

20     it was very convenient to use cattle carriages to transport people

21     further on.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, if it was there already then it was

23     built prior to the event, wasn't it?

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  That was my understanding.  I just

25     wanted to check.  Because there is some statement from this witness

Page 3362

 1     telling something different.

 2             Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Among the guards in Trnopolje there were Muslims

 4     as well; is that correct?

 5        A.   I don't know that there were Muslims among the guards.  I know

 6     that there were two men who once came from the front and were looking for

 7     their families in the camp, because whilst they were in -- on the front

 8     line, their families had been taken away and killed.  But these two were

 9     not guards.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for my understanding, Mr. Lukic, when you said

11     that -- there's some statement from this witness telling something

12     different, that is not in evidence or is it --

13             MR. LUKIC:  No, it's not.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

15             MR. LUKIC:  If it comes out, I would be able to address this.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

18             [Interpretation] Can we please have P277 in e-court.

19        Q.   Doctor, will be so kind and mark the place where Penny Marshall

20     was standing during her first visit.

21        A.   As far as I know, Penny Marshall entered through this place, and

22     that's the construction materials store, and this fence used to exist

23     before.

24             Now, there was a small passing or opening in the fence.  She

25     passed through it and reached this bigger fence.

Page 3363

 1             The Keraterm inmates were locked up here.  A new fence was put up

 2     there.  And the other one was repaired, and this is where the prisoners

 3     were kept.  And she filmed them from this area, I think.  But there are

 4     some shots from different angles as well.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, in order to understand the marking, I

 6     think, please follow me, the blue dot, lowest, is the place where she

 7     entered the -- what was the literal text.  The material shed.

 8             The cross above that, slightly to the left, is where she filmed.

 9             Now, further up, there are two lines, to the left and to the

10     right of the words "Serb Red Cross."  That is where the witness said the

11     new fence was made.  And the cross immediately below the

12     "Serb Red Cross," that is where the detainees were.  Better is, next

13     time, to invite the witness to mark with --

14             MR. LUKIC:  Change the mark.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, to at least use letters or whatever, if you

16     instruct him better.  But I think it's now clearly on the record.

17             Ms. D'Ascoli seems to agree as well.

18             But marking usually is best done by using letters or by giving

19     clear instructions.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  I made three such

23     sketches:  There's one before the journalists arrived, there's one when

24     the journalists arrived, and the one after they had left.  And maybe the

25     best way would to be use sketch number 2 where all the relevant positions

Page 3364

 1     of journalists are marked.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We have now used this one.  I leave it in the

 3     hands of Mr. Lukic whether he wants to use another one as well.

 4             But what you said is now reflected by your markings, isn't it?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I'd like to tender the document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, P277, as now being marked by the

11     witness will receive number ...

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit D56, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D56 is admitted into evidence.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, please.  I'd like to add

15     one thing.

16             Within this fence were the prisoners from Keraterm; whereas, the

17     rest of them were still in school.  I wanted to say this in order to

18     avoid any misunderstanding.  And I do apologise.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear and on the record by now.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I'm going ask you something in connection with this.

22     Penny Marshall is filming the people who had been brought from Keraterm,

23     or was she filming the people who were not brought from Keraterm?

24        A.   As far as I know, she was filming the prisoners brought from

25     Keraterm and a smaller group of them arrived earlier from Omarska but the

Page 3365

 1     majority were from Keraterm; because most of people from Omarska arrived

 2     only towards the evening, after Penny Marshall had gone.  They were also

 3     put inside the fence where this construction materials store is located;

 4     the place where she entered the compound.

 5        Q.   You say that this fence was built to confine the people from

 6     Keraterm immediately before the journalists arrived, and then the fence

 7     was removed after they left.

 8        A.   Once the world and Europe learned about the camp by television

 9     broadcast, they hastily removed the fence.  So one segment of the fence

10     was newly built, and there was an older fence that used to exist before.

11        Q.   I'm a bit confused.  They know that the journalists are coming,

12     they put people inside the fence, and as soon as the journalists leave,

13     they tear-down the fence; isn't that counter-productive?

14        A.   As far as I know, there was no plan for journalists to come to

15     Trnopolje.  They were supposed to go to Omarska, but then they were sent

16     from Omarska to Trnopolje, and, as far as I know, they were already

17     passing through Trnopolje when journalists, by chance, saw some people.

18     They removed the fence only after my photographs were published and after

19     Penny Marshall basically provided proof of the existence of the camps.

20     They were probably under the pressure from the public, and an instruction

21     came from Karadzic or whoever for this fence to be removed, and they even

22     allowed family visits from Prijedor, in order for the prisoners to get

23     some food.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you -- you asked for opinion.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

Page 3366

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the witness happily enough did provide

 2     90 per cent of his answer by giving facts.  I think it's better to ask a

 3     witness of fact about facts, rather than to elicit opinion.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I agree, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'm also looking at the clock.  Would this be a

 6     suitable time for a break?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness first be escorted out of the

 9     courtroom.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes past

12     12.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

16             Meanwhile, I use the opportunity to remind the parties that they

17     were instructed to file by the 26th of September their positions as to

18     how much material should be uploaded into relation to D20, which is the

19     report of the Netherlands institute for war documentation.

20             I don't think that we have seen any filing not from Defence, nor

21     from the Prosecution, or have we?

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I believe Mr. Vanderpuye and

23     Mr. Stojanovic have been discussing it.  I believe they have come to an

24     agreement.  Perhaps he can illuminate us what that was.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we will hear from them then at a later stage.

Page 3367

 1     It's then true that we have not received any written submissions that

 2     were filed.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.

 5             Mr. Lukic.

 6             There were no consultations in court anymore.  That was the new

 7     regime.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Doctor, can we continue?

11        A.   Yes, we can.

12        Q.   The fence that you said was built, the new one, can it be seen in

13     the film made by Penny Marshall?  You must have seen them.

14        A.   Yes, it can be seen in Penny Marshall's film.

15        Q.   Now, the fence around the school is just an ordinary fence.  How

16     tall was it?

17        A.   Well, about 70 centimetres, up to 1 metre.

18        Q.   So one could easily jump over it.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   At which point were people free to come and leave Trnopolje?

21        A.   When you say "people," are you referring only to males, or are

22     you referring to women and children as well?

23        Q.   I'm referring to women, children and the elderly.  When there

24     they were allowed to leave.

25        A.   The women and children were mainly transported elsewhere.  When

Page 3368

 1     an announcement came that the journalists were going to visit the site,

 2     the women who had arrived from Omarska beforehand were sent off to

 3     Prijedor.  After the journalists' visit and before the

 4     International Red Cross came and the fence was torn down due to the fact

 5     that it was known that there were camps, women used to come but mainly to

 6     visit and to bring food.  There were some exceptions, though, that some

 7     of the women came to the camp of their own accord.  They mostly came in

 8     an organised way, by buses, following the mopping up of their villages.

 9        Q.   Some men left as well; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.  A smaller portion of the male population managed to do

11     that, if a Serb managed to put them on a convoy.  And I said that was

12     organised before the journalists arrived and before the others arrived.

13     A convoy was set up before the International Red Cross registered the

14     detainees.  I'm talking about the convoy of detainees who were killed at

15     Mount Vlasic.  In that period, Major Kuruzovic who had received

16     confirmation that there was place to accommodate them before being

17     registered, they let them go.  For example, my wife's father was also set

18     free, but later on, in Prijedor, he and his wife and the wife's sister

19     were killed in their house, in Prijedor.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I gained the impression that your first

21     question, which was at which point were people free to come and leave

22     Trnopolje, the witness then asked what you understood by "people."

23             And that there's some confusion as what "leaving" means in this

24     respect.  The witness apparently is talking - that's at least how I

25     understand his testimony - about when people left Trnopolje; whereas,

Page 3369

 1     your initial question seemed to be to what extent people were free to

 2     leave and come back and go to their homes and then return to Trnopolje.

 3             Is that what you wanted to ask?  Because that's not what the

 4     focus of the answer was.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I'm satisfied with this answer, Your Honour.  Maybe

 6     when it is translated it sounds differently.  But I think witness and I

 7     understood each other properly.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, it's also for the Chamber, of course, to

 9     understand what you apparently -- let me ask it clearly.

10             You have told us about convoys leaving or women taken out before

11     the journalists came.  To what extent were those detained men, women,

12     children, elderly - if there's any distinction, please make it - were

13     able to leave Trnopolje, go home and then return, or even not return.

14             Could you tell us something about the freedom of movement in and

15     out Trnopolje?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, mostly -- I mean,

17     well, when the journalists came, no one could enter or leave without

18     receiving permission from the Serbs.  Until that arrival, after cleansing

19     the these village, they mainly brought in women and children.  Only about

20     10 per cent were men.  And then women and children were transported

21     further on from Trnopolje to territories outside the Serb republic.

22             When it was announced that the journalists would come, then men

23     were released in this one convoy too.  They were allowed to leave, as

24     well as women, to create room for these others.

25             After the journalists came --

Page 3370

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there because your answer again is

 2     apparently focussing on people taken to other places.

 3             My question is about, if, for example, a woman or small number of

 4     men were brought to Trnopolje, or came - some of them, you said,

 5     voluntarily to Trnopolje - were they free then to leave and go home again

 6     and then to return, or should they stay, apart from the convoys taking

 7     them out.  But on an individual level, could they go home, for example,

 8     to look after their vegetable garden and then return with some food or --

 9     and was that allowed to everyone?

10             This is a very compound question.  Apologies for that.  Could you

11     please tell us something about that.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is it a bit complicated,

13     that's what I can say.  Because in different stages there were different

14     relations within the camp.

15             At any rate, it was never possible for the civilians to decide

16     themselves, Now I'll go to the camp, then I'll go home and then I'll come

17     back again.  They had to receive permission to do that.

18             For example, at one point in time they even allowed male inmates

19     to go not to their own homes but to houses around the camp that were

20     empty to look for food because there wasn't enough food in the camp.

21     There wasn't enough food so they allowed them to go in search of food.

22     They also allowed them to bring in some wood-fueled furnaces but then

23     nobody could do that without any kind of control.  It's not that I could

24     go home and then return whenever I wanted to.  No, that did not happen.

25     It was only after they allowed this, after the journalists and before the

Page 3371

 1     Red Cross, namely, that woman could come to the camp and visit the

 2     inmates that had been registered.  Then after the International Red

 3     Cross, and after the journalists, they allowed these visits.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   For example, even if people would leave if someone would manage

 8     to escape, could they move around or were there front lines around the

 9     entire area?

10        A.   As far as I know, there were only check-points.  Now whether

11     there were more conflicts going on.  I don't know.  I don't know if there

12     were further conflicts.  If somebody managed to escape then it was

13     possible, well, I mean, like out of any prison anybody can try to escape

14     and some succeed and -- but where do they go?  Serbs were going from one

15     house to another, checking everything.  Houses had also been torched.  I

16     think that there was no point in trying to escape anyway.

17        Q.   Didn't conflicts start in Bosnia-Herzegovina as soon as the camp

18     was opened?

19        A.   I'm talking about conflicts in Prijedor.  As far as you remember,

20     Dr. Stakic himself said on TV that Serbs held under their control --

21     well, unless you're saying now that he was not saying the truth at that

22     point in time on television that's a different matter.  But the Serbs

23     themselves were saying that Prijedor had been taken care of.  That it was

24     over.

25        Q.   Obviously this interview had been given before the 30th of May,

Page 3372

 1     because there's only a reference to Kozarac.  So could -- so Dr. Stakic

 2     did not know what the situation was in Prijedor.

 3        A.   Well, he was president of the SDS, and he'd have to -- well, all

 4     right.

 5        Q.   Now that we're on the subject of Stakic, I saw that you said that

 6     he was a member of the SDS.  Do you know --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the date of the interview known in one way or the

 8     other?  Because you're drawing conclusions.  Obviously it has been given

 9     because there's only a reference -- if you know the dates then if the

10     parties could agree on that, then we don't have to deduce by logic when

11     the interview was taken.

12             Anyway ...

13             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe the Prosecution can help.

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, I'm checking the MFI information for the

15     video, Your Honours, but we don't have the date of the interview itself.

16     We have the date of the -- when the video was seized and brought to the

17     Tribunal, but there is no date of the interview --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MS. D'ASCOLI:  -- and I remember there was no date on the video

20     either.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know that Dr. Stakic was a member of the

24     Veljko Guberina Radical Party, not a member of the SDS.

25        A.   I don't know that.

Page 3373

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now this is why I asked whether you had anywhere to

 2     go.  You heard about the opening of the corridor towards Serbia on the

 3     28th of June.

 4        A.   I hadn't heard of the opening of the corridor towards Serbia.

 5        Q.   You hadn't?  All right.

 6        A.   No, I hadn't.  But what would I be doing in Serbia?

 7        Q.   Towards Croatia there was fighting there.  Towards Croatia and in

 8     Croatia.  Then towards the part that was under the control of the TO BH,

 9     later on the army of the BH, there was also fighting.  Could you leave at

10     all crossing the confrontation line at any point, if this were not

11     organised?

12        A.   First of all, I was not allowed to leave at all.

13             Secondly, my opinion is that all of those who were fit for

14     military service -- well, the Serbs left them there on purpose because

15     they were afraid if they would let them go somewhere then they take up

16     weapons - probably - and fight together with the BH army to return to

17     their homes.  That's why the Serbs decided to kill them and not to let

18     them go.  This is just my opinion.

19        Q.   Now we're going to deal with facts and I'd like to talk about the

20     conditions in Trnopolje itself.

21             From paragraph 31 onwards, a few paragraphs.  First question:

22     When you came to Trnopolje, you were not searched or frisked; is that

23     right?

24        A.   That's right.  We were not.  Only Azra Blazevic had a rucksack.

25     No one else had anything.

Page 3374

 1        Q.   All the time in Trnopolje, you had your personal documents; is

 2     that right?

 3        A.   I did not have my documents.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have in e-court 1D300.

 5     We need -- actually, in line 1 they asked you -- I'm going to read it in

 6     English so you can receive the proper interpretation:

 7             [In English] "Did you have your personal documents on you?"

 8             [No interpretation]

 9             [In English] "Yes, I had my ID."

10             [Interpretation] That's what you said under oath in the Stakic

11     trial on the 11th of September, 2002.

12        A.   Sorry, I cannot remember exactly.

13        Q.   Was your memory better, more fresh then than today?

14        A.   Possibly.

15        Q.   Would you accept that you did have your personal documents on you

16     throughout your stay in Trnopolje?

17        A.   I can say that they did not take our documents away.  I think

18     that that is sufficient.  I mean, I cannot recall the actual image now,

19     having my ID there.  Maybe I did have it; maybe I didn't.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I'll leave it at that.

21             Now I'm going to ask you about the registration of people in

22     Trnopolje.  Was that done from the very beginning or actually from when

23     you arrived?

24        A.   Registration in Trnopolje?  That was not carried out, as far as I

25     know.

Page 3375

 1        Q.   We received that information in independent television news LTD.

 2     On the 8th of March, 2000, you testified 02095901, 51 to 53, lines 51 to

 3     53.  This is what you said, that from the very outset registration was

 4     carried out in Trnopolje.

 5             Would you recall that testimony today?

 6        A.   I know that we had to compile a list at the infirmary and hand it

 7     over to Kuruzovic.  As for the others who were in camp, except for when

 8     they left, then they had to sign this.  I don't know of any special

 9     registration, especially not all these women and children who spent only

10     a night or two there and then were transported again. I do not remember

11     this registration.

12        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

13             As for the conditions in Trnopolje itself, is it correct that

14     guards tried to help people?

15        A.   I never claimed that all Serbs were bad.  There were some people

16     who want to the help us.

17        Q.   Were there other Serbs from the surrounding area who tried to

18     help?

19        A.   There were other Serbs who tried to help.

20        Q.   For example, the locals, the people who lived around the area,

21     Serbs included, you say brought food to Trnopolje.

22        A.   That's correct.  But, as I've said, these were just individuals.

23     Even the Serb lady who was with us, Goga was her name, she was in Kozarac

24     with us at the infirmary there, and she was taken to Trnopolje together

25     with us.  She wanted to stay on with us in Trnopolje, but they did not

Page 3376

 1     allow that, and they kicked her out.  She's Serb too.

 2        Q.   The Red Cross arrived in Trnopolje, the local Red Cross, on the

 3     28th or 29th of March [as interpreted], 1992; is that correct?

 4        A.   I cannot say exactly which day that was.  I cannot guarantee

 5     that.  At any rate, it was in the beginning.

 6        Q.   What did they have in order to help the people who were there?

 7        A.   I don't know whether they had anything available.  I just know

 8     that they did not bring anything.  Now, whether they had something

 9     available, and did not, or whether they did not have anything available,

10     I mean, I cannot say.  I don't know.

11        Q.   I apologise, doctor.  Just a technical matter.  Page 58 of

12     LiveNote, line 22, it say "the 28th or 29th of March."  And I think that

13     my question referred to the 28th or 29th of May.  And I believe that that

14     is how the doctor understood it too.

15             Let us move on.

16             Do you know where this assistance for Trnopolje arrived, the

17     assistance that did?

18        A.   Which assistance?

19        Q.   Did the Red Cross take part in this?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you should seek confirmation if it's your

21     understanding that the witness understood something.  Then you should

22     seek confirmation rather than to -- to express what you believe is the

23     case.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I will.  Thank you.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Doctor, we have to go back to this 28th and

Page 3377

 1     29th.

 2             I asked you when the Red Cross arrived, and you said towards the

 3     end -- or the beginning, or, rather, the beginning when it was

 4     established.

 5        A.   When Trnopolje was established.

 6        Q.   It's May, isn't it?

 7        A.   It's either the end of May or the beginning of June.  But it's

 8     just during those few days.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that members of the Red Cross from

10     Prijedor asked the International Red Cross for help?

11        A.   I'm not aware of that.

12        Q.   Did you communicate with members of the Red Cross?

13        A.   We did communicate with Pero Curguz and Dusko Ivic.

14        Q.   Did you suggest to them to ask the International Red Cross for

15     help?

16        A.   We did not make direct proposals like that to them.

17        Q.   Can we agree -- or, actually, I'll read out a portion of

18     testimony from Stakic of the 10th of September.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have 1D304, please.

20             [In English] Before I continue, Your Honour, I forget to ask to

21     tender 1D300.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

23             Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D300 becomes Exhibit D57, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 3378

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] This is page 7749 of the Milomir Stakic trial

 3     transcript, lines 15 through 21.  In line 15 you say:

 4             [In English] "We did not know really about the command

 5     structure."

 6             [Interpretation] Then in line 18, question:

 7             [In English] "And finally this:  On this first afternoon, the

 8     soldiers who were there, were you able to understand from their uniforms

 9     who they were, what unit?"

10             [Interpretation] Line 21, you say:

11             [In English] "I wasn't able to tell really."

12             [Interpretation] Can we agree that you were not familiar with the

13     command structure in Trnopolje?

14        A.   In the course of those first few days, we did not, because

15     Major Kuruzovic arrived only several days later, and then we learned that

16     he was the person in charge of camp.  In the first few days, there was

17     another officer.  I don't remember his name, though, nor do I know what

18     military unit he belonged to.

19        Q.   Which structure --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic, it would have been fair to

21     the witness to have read to him also when he said something about the

22     command structure, to read the question to him, which was limited at that

23     first stage, not -- and that would have been appropriate to put to the

24     witness because that was what his answer was about.

25             Now the witness has corrected more or less, your mistake.  You

Page 3379

 1     may proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, if I may just ask a question.  I'm not

 4     quite sure that I'm following you now.  At the time when you called for

 5     this exhibit, you had been asking the witness, did you communicate with

 6     members of the Red Cross.  And then he said, we did communicate with --

 7     no, no, no.

 8             You said did you suggest to them to ask the

 9     International Red Cross for help?  And then it was said we did not make

10     direct proposals like that to them.

11             Next question was can we agree or actually I will read out a

12     portion of testimony from Stakic on the 10th of September.  That's when

13     you called this.  Now I thought what you -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             MR. LUKIC:  It's not related.  My mistake, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought what you wanted to show the witness is

16     the fact that he asks the International Red Cross for help or somebody

17     asked the International Red Cross for help.

18             MR. LUKIC:  My mistake.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But this one of command structures I don't know

20     when it comes from.  When did you discuss command structures?

21             MR. LUKIC:  I just moved to the next section of my questions,

22     Your Honour, obviously I didn't [Overlapping speakers] ...

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

24             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... artfully enough.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you suggesting that this exhibit is a basis

Page 3380

 1     for the command structure that's the topic you're now going to --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, Your Honour.  Not

 3     Red Cross, sorry.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you made the transition clearer ...

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you for helping.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] I will still dwell on the commands structure,

 9     doctor.

10             Did you know at the time or do you know now what sort of

11     organisation Kuruzovic belonged to?  Who was his superior?

12        A.   I don't know who his superior was.  I only know that he wore

13     military camouflage uniform, and I don't know anything about his

14     superiors.

15        Q.   Thank you.  As regards the conditions in the camp, you described

16     different guards and that you say that at some point or that there were

17     periods of time when the guards only carried side-arms.  Did you mean

18     handguns?

19        A.   No.  Just rifles without automatic rifles.  Guards at Trnopolje

20     changed.  They rotated approximately every two weeks, and each shift had

21     their own weapons, meaning that the kind of weapons changed with the

22     guards.

23             On one occasion, while I presume everyone was at the front line,

24     we even had older men, retirees, with rifles who were tasked with

25     guarding us.

Page 3381

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             Let me move to the part of your statement where you discuss rape.

 3     It is paragraph 33.  There, you mention Marica Olenjuk and a woman who

 4     came to her house.  Can you recall that woman's name?

 5        A.   I don't know her name, but I can show you the house.

 6        Q.   Since I don't have a diagram let me ask you this:  Is the house

 7     outside the perimeter at Trnopolje where the people were accommodated?

 8        A.   It was outside the camp.

 9        Q.   There was a woman living in that house who came to see

10     Marica Olenjuk; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You reported the incident to a skinny man in uniform; correct?

13        A.   When I first came out, I saw Baltic in town, and he took me to

14     that man, since he at that point in time was responsible for the camp.

15        Q.   After that, the women were taken for medical examination?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Was that another incident?

18        A.   It was a different incident.  The examinations took place later.

19        Q.   What was Rade Baltic -- Baltic's position?  Why did you turn to

20     him?  Does he have a place in the Trnopolje hierarchy?  Rade Baltic.

21        A.   He was always in civilian clothes, much like Ostoja Skrbic.  He

22     did not wear a uniform.  He was a prominent Serb in Trnopolje.  Now

23     whether he had any position, that is something I don't know.

24        Q.   You said about Kuruzovic that he was in camouflage uniform.  Can

25     you describe it?

Page 3382

 1        A.   It was light olive-green camouflage fatigue.  It was greenish in

 2     colour.

 3        Q.   Did you see such uniform on other people at the time?

 4        A.   The Balaban brothers who came later had the same kind of uniform.

 5     As for Slavko Puhalic, his hue was different, darker.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Let me move to paragraph 63 of your statement.  You

 7     will see it on the screen shortly.

 8             There, you say that you had a conversation with Dr. Ivic to have

 9     the women whom you reported as having been raped examined, and he

10     consented to it.  Ivic probably conveyed it to Kuruzovic; correct?

11        A.   Yes.  There were a few women who agreed to the report -- the

12     incident being reported.  I talked about it with Ivic, and he said that

13     he needed to talk to some others first before a decision was made.

14        Q.   Were you present when he asked for Kuruzovic's approval, and do

15     you know whether, indeed, he turned to Kuruzovic?

16        A.   I don't know that, but I do know that he had to talk to someone

17     first, although I wasn't present.

18        Q.   The women were taken to the hospital and examined; correct?

19        A.   They were put on a Serbian Red Cross van, and they were returned

20     as well.  Ivic confirmed to me that they had all been raped.

21        Q.   Do you know who told Ivic about that information?

22        A.   Ivic accompanied them to Prijedor.

23        Q.   After that, the perpetrators, most likely, came to threatened

24     Kuruzovic for having allowed that the women be examined; is that correct?

25        A.   They arrived two tanks.  There were -- there were words El

Page 3383

 1     Manijakos on them.  And they had an argument with Kuruzovic about why it

 2     was allowed for the women to be examined.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The letters on the

 4     tanks may have been El Manijakos as in mock Spanish.

 5             Could the witness please repeat his last sentence.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did you have any impression that the perpetrators were trying to

 8     cover things up?

 9        A.   Well, very likely, but I can't be sure.

10        Q.   Do you remember the first name of Dr. Ivic?

11        A.   Dusko or Dusan.

12        Q.   Yes, so that we could research that.

13             One of the soldiers was detained once the women had been

14     examined.

15        A.   We heard later on from the guards - I don't know whether it's

16     true or not - that one of them was detained and that they went to get him

17     out of jail.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to move on to that part of your

19     statement where you discuss murders in Trnopolje.  That section begins

20     with paragraph 35.

21             In paragraph 35, you say that they were taken away from the

22     clinic and that they were no longer seen.  The persons in question were

23     Mijaz Gutic or Dzemal Zeric.  Is it Zeric or Seric with a diacrytic?

24        A.   Zeric.

25        Q.   You didn't see them being killed?

Page 3384

 1        A.   No, we only heard them being beaten and taken away in a car.

 2        Q.   If they were killed you have no knowledge about who did that?

 3        A.   No, but they were taken away by people in military uniform.

 4        Q.   The people who took them away in military uniform, you don't know

 5     who they were subordinated to, who they reported to?

 6        A.   I don't know, but Slavko Puhalic knows because he called them.

 7        Q.   We need to go to paragraph 43 next.

 8             There you say -- well, you mentioned the brothers Pjanic and they

 9     told you of a murder of 20 people in the village of Elez.  Who did they

10     hear it from?

11        A.   They said they heard it from the people who went to bury the

12     bodies.  It was organised by Pero Curguz to have them buried.

13        Q.   Pero Curguz was a member of the Red Cross; correct?

14        A.   He was.  That is correct.

15        Q.   The people who told you about it, who had heard about it from

16     those who buried the bodies, those people didn't know who the

17     perpetrators were.

18        A.   As in the case of other villages, that village was cleansed too,

19     which means people were driven out of their homes and expelled, as well

20     as killed there.  Fikret Hodzic, he was killed in front of his house.

21     There were soldiers in uniform.  I don't know if it was the same unit

22     that was engaged in mopping up everywhere, but that's how they were doing

23     it.

24        Q.   You don't know if those people had been killed in combat and then

25     brought there?

Page 3385

 1        A.   They were not killed in combat, in Elez.  That was right next to

 2     the camp.  There was no fighting there at all.

 3        Q.   Paragraph 55 of the statement, please.  You discuss the killing

 4     of five people with the last name of Foric.  Azra Blazevic told you about

 5     the killings; correct?

 6        A.   I saw when they were lined up, when they lined up the detainees

 7     in front of the school and they asked for Foric to step forward.  Few of

 8     those lads stepped forward, and after that they were taken towards the

 9     railway, and we heard that they were killed.  And Azra told me that she

10     heard this from one of the guards.

11        Q.   Can you tell us who the guard is?  Did she tell you his name?

12        A.   No, I don't know.

13        Q.   This person who told you Mrs. Blazevic, was that individual

14     present during the killing or was that something that she also heard

15     second-hand?

16        A.   I can't tell you that I suppose she did not take part.  I don't

17     know.

18        Q.   Let's move now to paragraph 57.  You speak about the killings at

19     Ribnjak.  Who told you about these killings?

20        A.   That happened during the time when the International Red Cross

21     was already on the site.  A military vehicle brought some five or six

22     young men into the camp.  They were handed over to the guards.

23     Mladen Mitrovic took them to the local commune building, and then another

24     person in military uniform driving a civilian car arrived.  Then they

25     were beating these people for about half an hour and then took them

Page 3386

 1     towards Ribnjak, and while they were being taken away, we could see that

 2     they were being beaten along the way, and then we heard that they were

 3     killed down there.

 4        Q.   Doctor, who told you that?

 5        A.   I can't tell you at the time.

 6        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

 7             Let's move on now to the topic of convoys from Trnopolje,

 8     although we did tackle this issue to a certain extent already.  Were the

 9     people forced to enter buses or trains, or did they come to Trnopolje of

10     their own accord?

11        A.   No.  The people didn't come to Trnopolje of their own accord to

12     board those vehicles.  Once they were in Trnopolje, nobody beat them

13     individually in order to force them to join the convoy.  Quite simply,

14     they were told to join the convoy along with the women and children.

15        Q.   Do you know that the convoy was organised by the Red Cross?

16        A.   No, I don't know who organised this convoy.

17        Q.   Who organised the convoy with which you left?

18        A.   The International Red Cross and the UNHCR.

19        Q.   Did you ever talk to Pero Curguz about who was organising the

20     convoys?

21        A.   No, I didn't.

22        Q.   Pero Curguz was in charge, and he received instructions and

23     orders from the Crisis Staff.  That is what you told the federal criminal

24     police.

25        A.   I suppose so, but I cannot say with any degree of certainty that

Page 3387

 1     that is correct.

 2        Q.   That's what we found on the 1st of December, 2004, page 19, that

 3     you said that.  Do you remember that?

 4        A.   No.  I cannot remember because I was in such a position that did

 5     not allow me to know 100 per cent who was giving orders whom among the

 6     Serbs.  Of course, you don't think that the Serbs would come to me and

 7     tell me this and this order arrived from this and this person.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise.  Would it be convenient time to make a

10     break now because Mr. Mladic is not feeling well so maybe we could ...

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we can take a break now.

12             Could you give us an indication as to how much time you would

13     still need, Mr. Lukic?

14             MR. LUKIC:  I -- I might finish today, or -- I -- I think I need

15     a bit more time than we have until the end of the day, after the break.

16             But I'll try my best to finish by the end of the day.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And we'll consider how much time we would

18     grant you.  You know that we are always monitoring the cross-examination

19     closely.

20             We'll take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

21             Could the witness first leave the courtroom.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Recess taken at 1.17 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.40 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

Page 3388

 1             Mr. Lukic, the Chamber has closely monitored your

 2     cross-examination and expects you to finish today.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I realised --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Preferably.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  -- myself as well, so I will.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Doctor, we don't have long.  Let's now look at paragraphs 78 and

13     79 from your statement where you speak about the convoy headed for

14     Mount Vlasic.  Do you recall if this convoy set off on or around the 21st

15     of August, 1992?  Is that consistent with your recollection?

16        A.   It set off before the detainees were registered by the

17     International Red Cross.  So I think that the International Red Cross

18     arrived at the camp but did not start registering them immediately.  That

19     means that the convoy was organised before they were registered.  I don't

20     know the date.

21        Q.   I wasn't expecting you to give me an exact date.

22             Now let me show you document 1D309.  While we are waiting for

23     this document to appear, this is issued by the Command of the

24     1st Krajina Corps, in which they are sending a report to the Main Staff

25     of the Army of Republika Srpska.  The date is the 22nd August 1992.

Page 3389

 1     However, there are two blank pages:  Page 3 in B/C/S and page 2 in

 2     English.  This is page 2.  We need page 3 in B/C/S.  Number 3, at the top

 3     of the page.

 4             Here, you can see when they describe the situation on the ground,

 5     it says, under number 3, fifth and sixth lines from the beginning:

 6             "On the 21st August between 1830 and 1900 hours, Muslim civilian

 7     men were massacred.  The massacre was carried out by a group of policemen

 8     who were escorting the convoy towards Travnik.  The place where the

 9     massacre took place was at Koricanske Stijene, in the canyon of Ilomska

10     River on Mount Vlasic."

11             Do you think that this is the incident that you heard about?

12        A.   Yes, I do.  However, as I said, I cannot confirm the date

13     positively, but I would think so.

14        Q.   The next document is dated 11th September, and that's 1D311.  The

15     B/C/S version is quite poor whereas the English is a much better one, and

16     I'm going to read out to you what it says.  As I said, it's dated the

17     11th of September, 1992.  It is addressed to the Banja Luka CSB, that is,

18     the Security Services Centre of Banja Luka.  And then it's passed on to

19     the public security station in Prijedor.  And it says:

20             "I hereby order to conduct, in accordance with the law and other

21     regulations ..."

22             It seems to me that it says "a full investigation."

23             "...regarding the fate of approximately 150 persons of Muslim

24     nationality in the area of Skender Vakuf municipality - Koricanske

25     Stijene."

Page 3390

 1             In order for me to put a question to you, we need to see another

 2     document, which is 1D310.  It's a short document, dated

 3     14th of September, 1992, in which the Prijedor public security station

 4     gives its response to the previous letter received from the Banja Luka

 5     CSB as their superiors.

 6             And we can see here that chief of public security station

 7     Prijedor reports to a higher authority that he was not able to carry out

 8     an investigation due to the fact that all police officers that were

 9     involved in escorting the convoy to Travnik, it says the 8th of 1992

10     [as interpreted], as of the 9th of September, 1992, were on the front

11     line in Han Pijesak.

12        A.   May I add something?

13        Q.   Go ahead.

14        A.   This is not correct.  Because one of the Balaban brothers was

15     there and the son of Pero Curguz who subsequently came to the camp and

16     continued their regular work.  They were not dispatched to the front.

17     And the son of Curguz said himself that he did not participate in that.

18        Q.   Does that mean that Pero's son was a member of the police,

19     because it is obvious from here that the police provided escort.

20        A.   Pero's son was also dressed in a military drab olive uniform just

21     like the Balaban brothers, but I don't know to which units he belonged.

22        Q.   Can you tell us today, if you know, that Dado Mrdza was convicted

23     by this Tribunal for this crime as a member of the police force?

24        A.   I'm not familiar with that for a simple reason that I recall

25     these events only when I come here.  Otherwise, I just close the book on

Page 3391

 1     it and never give it another thought.

 2        Q.   So you don't know that in Bosnia-Herzegovina seven other persons

 3     were convicted in respect of this same event?

 4        A.   Yes, I really don't know about that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to tender 1D309.

 6             MS. D'ASCOLI:  No objections, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What has this -- 1D309.  Was the ...

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             MR. LUKIC:  It's military document.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D309 becomes Exhibit D58, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D58 is admitted into evidence.  It is more or less

13     from the bar table because the witness cannot tell us anything about it,

14     isn't it, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  He did tell us about the event.  Who -- and --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But not about the document.  Well -- no, I'm

17     not saying it's not related.  Of course, it is related to his evidence,

18     but, yes.

19             MR. LUKIC:  We'll use this document probably in a future,

20     probably the Prosecution and us, so ...

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please then proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I would also ask --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One question, by the way, Mr. Lukic, in the document

24     we have on our screen now.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.

Page 3392

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It says handwritten note, 15th of September, 1992.

 2     There is a handwritten note in the translation, which I cannot see on the

 3     original.  So there apparently is something ...

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We have those two documents, we found those two

 5     documents.  Whether the Prosecution has different ones we have no

 6     objections to other documents that would be replaced.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing I notice is that the English version

 8     is not the same.  And the way in which you sort that out with the

 9     Prosecution, I mean, most important is that it is sorted out, because

10     translations should be in accordance with the original.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             MR. LUKIC:  We also ask to tender 1D310.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Which is on the screen.  So how to solve the problem.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Maybe we can inquire about whether we have the

16     original in another way and whether this handwritten note is visible in

17     that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could it be marked for identification and so that

19     we finally verify whether we have a good translation or an original with

20     handwritten notes on it.

21             Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D310 becomes Exhibit D59, marked for

23     identification, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps that status for the time being.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3393

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, am I correct that you used 1D304 but you

 2     didn't not intend to tender it further or ...

 3             MR. LUKIC:  1D -- I want to tender -- let me check, Your Honour.

 4     Thank you.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, when we used transcripts usually we don't

 7     tender them.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't tender them.  You just have read it from

 9     the -- okay.  That's then clear.  And the same would be true then, I take

10     it, for 1D311.

11             MR. LUKIC:  No.  1D311 we would ask

12     for [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You would ask for that to be admitted.

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  No objections, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, for 1D311.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit D60, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D60 is admitted into evidence.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   The next topic that I'd like to deal with you now, at the end, is

21     the topic of dismissals from work.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

23     65 ter 17415.

24        Q.   Doctor, you worked in the former system.  We're of the same age.

25     So we worked in Yugoslavia too.  Do you know of the provisions of the law

Page 3394

 1     stating that whoever does not come to work for three days automatically

 2     loses his job.  Do you remember that?

 3        A.   I cannot say either yes or no, whether people are dismissed if

 4     they don't come to work for three days.

 5        Q.   All right.  If we look at this list that is before us now, we see

 6     number 8 and number 9.  Are these foreigners?  These people had actually

 7     been dismissed.  That is what is stated in the heading.

 8        A.   I don't know them.

 9        Q.   All right.  But, on the basis of their last names, can we not

10     conclude that they're not from our part of the world?

11        A.   I don't know whether these are Albanian names from Kosovo.  But

12     I'm not aware of these people having worked in our institution.

13        Q.   Jelena Topic is number 11.  Did you know her?

14        A.   No I did not.

15        Q.   Can we agree that Jelena Topic would be a Serb?

16        A.   Probably.  I mean, I don't know how to make a distinction between

17     Serb and Croat names, but if you say so, that's probably the case.

18        Q.   We see the name of Dr. Risto Stojanovski under 19.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   He is most probably a Macedonian; is that right?

21        A.   Yes, that's right.

22        Q.   Twenty, Dr. Mario Karacic.  Who could he be, or, rather, what

23     could he be?

24        A.   A Croat, probably.

25        Q.   Grozdanic, Josipa?

Page 3395

 1        A.   Probably a Serb name.  I'm not sure about that.

 2        Q.   25, Jozica Djakovic?

 3        A.   I think that is a Serb name.

 4        Q.   50, Dusanka Vukovtic?

 5        A.   Dusanka is a Serb name, I think.

 6        Q.   Not to go on any further.  That would it be roughly.  Perhaps

 7     there are seven or eight other Serbs in this list.  So I would like to

 8     ask you whether you heard at the time, or later, that all of those who

 9     did not report for work were dismissed from the Prijedor hospital?

10        A.   I know that those who reported to work were dismissed.  I know

11     that only those they needed were kept on, like Begic, the surgeon.  They

12     kept him in this hospital while they needed him.  He's a traumatologist.

13     When they no longer needed him they took him to Omarska and killed him.

14        Q.   When was Dr. Begic taken to Omarska?

15        A.   After the attack on Kozarac.  I cannot say exactly but he

16     certainly worked for another month or so.  When they found a replacement

17     for him he was not released.  He was taken to Omarska then.  Begic.  Then

18     Sadikovic who took part in the negotiations they also took him to Omarska

19     and killed him.  Of course, he could not report for work if he was

20     detained in a camp.  I couldn't go to work either because I was detained

21     in a camp.

22        Q.   Well, that's precisely what I'm saying.  These people who worked

23     in the General Hospital in Prijedor.  If someone would not come to work

24     for three days, three successive days, they automatically dismissed them?

25        A.   Well, how could people go to work if they were detained in a camp

Page 3396

 1     by the Serbs themselves?

 2        Q.   But we cannot blame these people in the hospital for having

 3     dismissed these people if they did not come to work?

 4        A.   But I'm telling you --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, this is not a debating club.  You are

 6     supposed to ask questions and then the witness will answer those

 7     questions, as he did.  And let's move on.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I'm close to the end.  I would just --

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you know any of these people from this list?

10     For example, did you --

11        A.   Sadikovic Esad is number 46.

12        Q.   Dr. Zoran Vikoli [phoen], you said you knew him?

13        A.   Yes.  And also down here, a gynaecologist, Dr. Zeljko Sikora, he

14     was taken to Omarska and killed.  Of course, he was dismissed if he could

15     not go to work.  He was in camp and then he was killed there.  And my

16     wife was also dismissed.  She could no longer go do work, of course.

17        Q.   So do you know why these Serbs were dismissed?

18        A.   For example Zoran Vikolo even before war started, managed to flee

19     to Croatia, to Zagreb, and then he lost his job.

20        Q.   We see that.  It was the 14th of April.

21        A.   Yes.  Well, I've already said there were many who were hiding and

22     who did not want to fight against their neighbours.  They were many such

23     Serbs.

24        Q.   All right.  Major Kuruzovic was a teacher, actually; right?

25        A.   Yes, that's right.  He was just a reserve major.  But otherwise

Page 3397

 1     before the war, he was a primary school teacher.  I don't know what it

 2     was that he taught.

 3        Q.   Thank you, doctor.

 4        A.   You're welcome.

 5        Q.   These were all the questions I had for you.

 6        A.   Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  Before I give an opportunity

 8     for the Prosecution to re-examine the witness.

 9             You asked the witness whether he could conclude with you,

10     Mr. Lukic, that the names on the list that they are not from our part of

11     the world.  What is the common part of the world you have with the

12     witness.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Balkans, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And do you say that these names are not from the

15     Balkans?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I do.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the two --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Only two names.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Only two names.  Okay.  Yes, it's just numbers 8 and

20     9.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Any need to re-examine the witness.

24             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I do have a few questions Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

Page 3398

 1                           Re-examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:

 2        Q.   Mr. Merdzanic, first of all, I would like to go back to when you

 3     were asked today about a number of people wounded by the shellings during

 4     the attack in Kozarac.  So I'm reading from temporary page number 40 of

 5     today's transcript and you said that, when asked you whether you could

 6     offer a figure, you said you come to the 6 to 7 and then later on you

 7     said, well, a total of 9.

 8             Now because I recall from your statement, and this is

 9     paragraph 12 to 18 to P269, that you described two different situations

10     when you treated wounded people in Kozarac immediately at the beginning

11     of the attack and later on in the following days.  At the beginning of

12     the attack, there was in the clinic of Kozarac, in the proper health

13     centre and later on you moved to sort of house clinic, at the periphery

14     Kozarac.  So now I was wondering if could you clarify whether this number

15     9 that you told us about today, refers to the total number of wounded

16     people, or just to the most serious cases that you mentioned while

17     discussing -- while -- while replying to the answer by Mr. Lukic?

18        A.   Just more serious cases.  Those who came with minor injuries, I

19     didn't take them into account.

20        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  That's clear now.

21             Later, yes.  You also mentioned that the -- your wife's father,

22     his wife, and his wife's sisters were killed in their house in Prijedor.

23     Do you remember when was that?  And do you know the circumstances in

24     which that happened?

25        A.   That happened in 1994, considerably later.  They didn't want to

Page 3399

 1     leave the house, and one night, there was this curfew in Prijedor that

 2     had been imposed.  Men in uniform came and killed them in their house.

 3        Q.   Do you know anything more about this uniform?

 4        A.   I'm sorry, I don't know exactly about that.  But my wife and her

 5     brother investigated this for many years, and some of the persons who did

 6     that have already been brought before a court.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I've move to the next question.  You also say today that

 8     some people came to the camp voluntarily -- yes, on their own accord.

 9     That they mostly came in an organised way by buses following the mopping

10     up of their villages.  I'm reading from temporary transcript of page 51

11     of today's transcript.

12             Now, first of all, could you clarify the point in time in which

13     this happened, meaning whether it was at the beginning when Trnopolje was

14     established or later on after, before the journalists came?

15        A.   This of their own accord does not relate to these convoys with

16     buses.  These were individual cases, when some women came on their own,

17     on foot, from the surrounding area, but these were just individual cases.

18             All of those on buses and trucks were expelled from their homes

19     and brought under duress.

20        Q.   Okay.  So just to clarify, the individual cases that you

21     mentioned, did they represent as small percentage, I guess, of the camp

22     population, could you maybe give an estimate in terms of numbers, like

23     thousands or tens or less?  I mean, just to give us a more precise idea.

24        A.   It was a very small percentage.  It was in such cases when they

25     had been driven out of their homes by Serbs and told to go in the

Page 3400

 1     direction of Trnopolje.  They were all in the area immediately

 2     surrounding Trnopolje.  As for any specific figures, well, a few dozen,

 3     perhaps.  It wasn't anywhere near the thousands of people that were

 4     included in convoys, but perhaps several dozen.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that clarification.

 6             Now, my next point, today you were asked by Mr. Lukic whether you

 7     knew to which organisation Kuruzovic belonged to, who was his superior.

 8     I'm now reading from temporary transcript page 63.

 9             And I just wanted to clarify your answer to that, because it

10     seems to me that you just reply to the second part of the question.  Who

11     was his superior, and you say I don't know who his superior was.  I only

12     know that Kuruzovic wore a military camouflage uniform.  And I don't know

13     anything about his superiors.

14             Can you -- well, my question was whether you knew to which --

15     exactly -- so whether you could give an answer to the first part of the

16     question, meaning whether you knew to which organisation or which army,

17     considering that you talk of a military camouflage uniform, Kuruzovic

18     would be belong to or would be affiliated.  If you could --

19             MR. LUKIC:  This, I would objection, Your Honour.  Which army.

20     There was only army.  So it's not leading.  It's more than leading.

21             MS. D'ASCOLI:  There is a military camouflage uniform mentioned.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Do you know what -- wearing a camouflage uniform, do you know

24     whether and to what armed force he belonged to?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Such uniforms were only worn by the

Page 3401

 1     military and the reserve force belonging to the military.  There were no

 2     civilians.  I can't be specific as to any unit though.

 3             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Okay.  I leave it there.

 4        Q.   And, finally, you were also asked the killings of five Muslim men

 5     with the last name Foric which you discuss at paragraph 55 of your

 6     statement.  I just want to ask you whether in the months -- well, in the

 7     following months up until September, the end of September, 1992, you saw

 8     these five Muslim men with the last name Foric again in Trnopolje or not?

 9        A.   No, no.  The Forics were killed.  I couldn't see them again.

10             Later on, I only saw five survivors from Vlasic who came out at

11     the same time we did.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Merdzanic.

13             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, that concludes my re-examination.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.

15             Mr. Groome before we finish, I think we have one or two questions

16     from the Bench still.

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Merdzanic, could you tell us how many people

19     approximately were employed by the Prijedor police -- by the Prijedor

20     hospital?

21        A.   There were all departments there such as internal medicine,

22     surgery, gynaecology, so there were many people.

23             As for the health centre where I worked there were fewer people.

24     The health centre could have had about 100 employees.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And the hospital --

Page 3402

 1        A.   And the hospital must have had significantly more.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means 500, 1.000, 2.000?  What --

 3        A.   Not as many.  It wasn't a huge hospital, but several hundred

 4     people.  I can't be specific.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Judge Moloto has a question for you as

 6     well.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At page 82, lines 10 to 13, you were explaining

10     the individuals that you say were coming to the camp of their own accord

11     and not the people in the buses.

12             In explaining, you said these were people who came, for instance,

13     after being "driven out of their homes by Serbs."  Just quote that --

14             What I want to find out, the -- these people, are they, all of

15     them, came there as a result of having been driven out of their homes by

16     Serbs or are there others who came for other reasons, to your knowledge?

17        A.   Before the ICRC came, everyone who had come had to come there

18     because they had been driven out of their homes and had nowhere else to

19     go.

20             Following the arrival of the ICRC, there were people who tried

21     coming by themselves in order to be registered by the ICRC.  Such

22     registration offered a degree of safety.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  So they were not coming to the camp to come

24     in voluntarily to be in the camp.  They were coming to be registered by

25     the ICRC?  Do I understand you properly?

Page 3403

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So those who came, having been driven out of their

 3     homes by Serbs, what -- did they come to the camp or did they come to be

 4     registered also?

 5        A.   Those who had been thrown out had come before the ICRC came.

 6     They had nowhere else to go.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  I understand you.  Thank you

 8     very much.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Any questions triggered by the questions in

10     re-examination or by the Bench?

11             MR. LUKIC:  Not by the Bench, by the Prosecution.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, can we deal with it in.

13             MR. LUKIC:  One question.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  One question.  Okay.  Because I already have a bad

15     reputation with -- with interpreters and other staff.  So please.

16                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Doctor, it's me again.  Is it correct that

18     Kuruzovic had one type of uniform, Slavko Puhalic another, and the

19     soldiers who were there, a third type?

20        A.   Slavko Puhalic and Major Kuruzovic had the same kind of uniform,

21     a combat fatigue.  It's just that Slavko Puhalic's was slightly darker.

22     Most of the other soldiers had green military uniform, probably that of

23     the reserve force.

24        Q.   Do you know that at that time the army did not have combat

25     fatigues?

Page 3404

 1        A.   I don't know about that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. D'Ascoli.

 4             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours, I just note that 65 ter number

 5     17415 that was used by Mr. Lukic has not been tendered, and there is a

 6     reference on the record, of course names from that.  So I was just

 7     wondering what the status is of that document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the list of some 119 names.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  That one would show up again during this trial, I'm

10     sure.  So I asked for that document to be tendered into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait for that.  Should we not mark it for

12     identification at this moment because if at a later stage the same 65 ter

13     number is beyond our control.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we can mark it for identification.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 65 ter 17415.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit D61, marked for identification,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps that status until tendered.

19             MS. D'ASCOLI:  And, Your Honours, just for the record, we would

20     have no objections to the document to be tendered now.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the Prosecution -- the Defence didn't do

22     so, so, therefore, we leave it as it is now.

23             Mr. Merdzanic, this concludes your evidence in this court.  We'd

24     like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for answering the

25     questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I

Page 3405

 1     wish you a safe return home again.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  With apologies to interpreters, technical staff,

 5     transcribers, everyone who is suffering under this late conclusion, we

 6     adjourn for the day, and we'll resume, Tuesday, the 2nd of October, at

 7     9.30 in this same courtroom, I.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of

10                           October, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.