Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3574

 1                           Thursday, 4 October 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 6     you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President, we are.  Good morning to

12     you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  There was one preliminary matter that we wanted

15     to raise with the Chamber, or at least bring to the Chamber's attention,

16     and that relates to the interpretation arrangements for the witness.  I'm

17     not sure what the Chamber's aware of exactly.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me then try to explain to you.  What we know is

19     that if we have two-way translation that we are limited to 3.5 hours

20     today, and one of the options to be discussed with the witness would be

21     that since we have been informed that he understand English well, that he

22     would listen to the English questions and then answer them in his own

23     language, which would then allow us to go on until quarter past 2.00, but

24     of course only if the witness feels comfortable with that solution we

25     would decide to take that path.

Page 3575

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That is correct, Mr. President.  I have spoken

 2     to the witness just this morning, and he is willing to proceed in this

 3     fashion.  I also informed him that, of course, if there's any difficulty

 4     understanding or communicating to let us know and we would try to make

 5     the appropriate accommodation and arrangements.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'll then briefly introduce the matter with

 7     him again in court.

 8             Then we -- could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.  Could you put your earphones on the

11     English channel at this moment.  And could I invite you, unless there is

12     any specific reason, to take your cap off if you wouldn't mind.  Yes.

13             Mr. Abdel-Razek, if you first sit down for a second, I would like

14     to discuss a few matters with you prior to -- Mr. Abdel-Razek, we have

15     been informed that you understand the English language well.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, we've also been informed that you would prefer

18     to answer questions in your own language, which is Arabic.

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We have an Arabic interpreter who will -- who can

21     translate what I say, what you say, but if you would listen to the

22     questions in English, and if you would answer the questions in your own

23     language, then we could have our normal schedule today.  If, however, you

24     would want my words to be translated in Arabic also before you answer the

25     question, then we are limited in time because it requires more from the

Page 3576

 1     interpreters.

 2             You're entirely free to choose, but if you say, "I'm comfortable

 3     in hearing the English and answering in my own language," that would

 4     certainly -- would be more efficient for us.  But if you would not feel

 5     comfortable with that, please tell us so that even the questions are also

 6     translated to you in your own language.

 7             Now, it may be necessary anyhow that at least part of the

 8     questions that are -- the questions that may be put to you by Mr. Lukic

 9     will have to be translated anyhow, but for the first part, that is

10     Prosecution and to -- to the extent the Bench also puts questions to you,

11     would that be acceptable?  Would you feel comfortable listening to

12     questions in English and answering in Arabic.

13             THE WITNESS:  That would be okay, sir.  I'll go with that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That's one.  Second, before you give

15     evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  Now we

16     found out only this morning that the Arabic text of the solemn

17     declaration is not exactly the same as the English text.  The Arabic text

18     adds a religious element.

19             Now, if you feel more comfortable with adding that religious

20     element, no problem, as long as the text you also pronounce is in

21     accordance with our rules.  In English, you could also make the solemn

22     declaration in English.  In English it is:  "I solemnly declare that I

23     will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."  If

24     you say without any further religious element I'm happy or I feel

25     comfortable in making the oath in that way, I would even suggest to you

Page 3577

 1     that you may take -- make the solemn declaration in English.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Okay so I'll -- [indiscernible].

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, if you just repeat what I say.

 4             I solemnly declare.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That I will speak the truth.

 7             THE WITNESS:  That I will speak the truth.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole truth.

 9             THE WITNESS:  The whole truth.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And nothing but the truth.

11             THE WITNESS:  And nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  HUSEIN ALY ABDEL-RAZEK.

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Abdel-Razek.

15             Mr. Vanderpuye, are you ready to start your examination?

16             You'll first be examined by Mr. Vanderpuye.  Mr. Vanderpuye is

17     counsel for the Prosecution.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I am ready, Mr. President.  And may I proceed?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you,

21     Your Honours.  Good morning to counsel.  Good morning to you

22     General Mladic.

23                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

24        Q.   And good morning to you, General Abdel-Razek.  I know you've been

25     here before and today, as the President has indicated, the circumstances

Page 3578

 1     are a bit different in terms of the interpretation facilities available.

 2     If there's anything that I ask or anything that is put to you during the

 3     course of your testimony that is unclear, please let us know right away

 4     so that we can address that.

 5             Just so the record is clear, could you please state your full

 6     name.

 7        A.   [In English] Major-General Husein Aly Abdel-Razek.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   Retired.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could call up please 65 ter 28433.

11        Q.   And while that's coming up let me ask you, sir, do you recall

12     providing or signing a statement, a witness statement, on 16 July, 2002?

13        A.   Yes, I remember that, yeah.

14        Q.   Do you recognise the document that's in e-court now?  If we could

15     go down to the bottom of the page for one moment.  Thank you.

16        A.   I remember I give this statement.

17        Q.   Very well.  Do you recognise your signature at the bottom of this

18     page, this statement?

19        A.   Yeah, yeah.  It's mine.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Can we go, please, to page 30 in e-court.

21        Q.   As you can see here, this document is also dated -- appended to

22     the statement and dated 16 July 2002, and it refers to certain

23     corrections and additions to the statement that we have just looked at.

24     Do you recall signing this document as well?

25        A.   Yeah, I made this correction and I signed it.

Page 3579

 1        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to look at the statement and the

 2     corrections before you testifying -- before testifying here today?

 3        A.   Yes, sir.

 4        Q.   And can you confirm that the statement and the corrections at the

 5     time that you made them were accurate and truthful?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   General, does your statement as corrected fairly and accurately

 8     reflect what you would say if you were to be examined on those issues

 9     today?

10        A.   Absolutely.

11        Q.   Very well.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would tender the general

13     statement 28433 into evidence at this time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28433 becomes Exhibit P293, Your

16     Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             Mr. Abdel-Razek, I noticed that you answered as well in the

19     English language in a very good English.  Feel free to use your own

20     language if you're answering the questions, because a translator is

21     there, but if you feel comfortable in speaking English, and I noticed

22     that your English is -- is quite good, then of course do as you feel most

23     comfortable with.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 3580

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Mr. President, I

 2     would also tender the associated exhibits at this time as well.  Shall I

 3     enumerate them?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If the list which is before us is still valid, then

 5     if you'd please follow 09387, 65 ter, Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P294, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P294 is admitted into evidence.  09388.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P295, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  P09389.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P296, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And admitted into evidence.  09390.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P297, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.  11208.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P298, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.  The next one is grey

16     Mr. Vanderpuye, which often means that you do not tender it?

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President.  Not at this

18     time.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then we have still have another video-clip

20     which you --

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's my intention to show those to the witness

22     and seek admission.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So all the associated exhibits, we'll deal

24     with admission when you show it to the witness.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President.

Page 3581

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think we've dealt with all of them.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We have, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have a short summary that I'd like to read

 5     into the record followed by a series of questions for the general.

 6             From 21 August 1992 to 20 February 1993, General Abdel-Razek was

 7     the UNPROFOR Sector Sarajevo commander.  He met with the civilian and

 8     military leadership of the warring factions, including among others

 9     Radovan Karadzic, General Galic, and General Mladic.

10             UN military observers regularly reported to General Abdel-Razek

11     on the shelling of Sarajevo by Bosnian Serb forces.  He received reports

12     concerning the civilian casualties of these bombardments and those from

13     sniping attacks.  General Abdel-Razek also observed instances of random

14     shelling and the targeting of civilian areas.

15             Together with other senior UN officials, General Abdel-Razek

16     protested sniping and shelling attacks against civilians, civilian

17     targets, and humanitarian targets to members of the Bosnian Serb military

18     and civilian leadership.  UN officials sent written protests to

19     President Karadzic and General Mladic, as well as General Galic, Plavsic,

20     Krajisnik, and Koljevic, who routinely denied responsibility for the

21     protested conduct.  They claimed that Bosnian government forces shelled

22     their own people in order to draw international intervention or that the

23     VRS was acting in self-defence.  Tellingly, General Galic told

24     General Abdel-Razek and others that if the civilians continued to cross

25     the airport, his side would continue shooting at them.

Page 3582

 1             In General Galic and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,

 2     General Abdel-Razek observed a functioning chain of command.  VRS

 3     personnel appeared professional, well trained, and equipped.  In his

 4     experience, General Abdel-Razek found Galic himself to be a soldier who

 5     clearly acted on superior orders to carry out the shooting and shelling.

 6             The Bosnian Serb leadership was frank about its policy of ethnic

 7     cleansing.  Krajisnik stated as much, as did Plavsic, who acknowledged

 8     its unacceptability to the international community.  Following the London

 9     Conference, Karadzic told General Abdel-Razek explicitly that Muslims

10     were to be removed from Serb territories.  He repeated this in January

11     1993.  When asked candidly, "What do you want" in terms of a bottom of

12     line, Karadzic told General Abdel-Razek, in the presence of Krajisnik,

13     Plavsic, and Generals Mladic and Gvero, that "If we miss the chance, we

14     will not have it again ... the Muslims will be transferred out of Serb

15     territory because we can't live together."  General Abdel-Razek noted the

16     assent of the leaders present, including the accused.

17             Your Honours, that concludes my summary, and I would like to pose

18     some additional questions to the witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   General, this statement is from 2002, and I was wondering if you

22     could catch us up as briefly as you can on what you've been doing since

23     you made this statement, professionally.

24        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I was acting as a military advisor in

25     the state of Kuwait when I gave this present statement.  I think that

Page 3583

 1     this happened in 2002.  Following that, I was called to give my statement

 2     in the case of General Galic.  And I continued working in Kuwait until

 3     2011, and I returned following the events that happened in Egypt.

 4             Upon my return to Egypt, I was asked to work as an advisor at the

 5     Ministry of Defence, and this is my current occupation.

 6        Q.   Thank you, General.  I just wanted to go over, if we could, very

 7     briefly your engagement in Sarajevo, and if you could just tell us very

 8     briefly what were your day-to-day activities as the commander of Sector

 9     Sarajevo?

10        A.   We used to start our activities on daily routine activities.  We

11     used to start with the sector commander briefings, which used to take up

12     to half an hour of our time.  And during this briefing, we used to

13     examine all the main events.  Then I used to give my instructions

14     according to a particular and well-defined agenda, and this agenda is

15     usually prepared by the operation section under the command of the

16     Chief of Staff of the sector, and it comprises generally the main

17     activities that we are required to undertake on a particular day.

18             Then we used to go each one of us to his own section to follow up

19     on the observers' reports, to follow up on telephone calls we used to

20     receive or to make to the various warring factions, or also requests for

21     interviews or meetings.  And we also used to send reports to the higher

22     command in Zagreb.

23             So after gathering all these pieces of information, so up to

24     6.00 p.m. I used to then hold a meeting with my assistant; with the Chief

25     of Staff; and with the chief of operations; and the chief of police; as

Page 3584

 1     well as the SMO, the senior military observer.  And then we used to

 2     follow up on the various reports and information that we received.

 3     [In English] Sorry, I would like to add civil affairs should be added to

 4     this group.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6        A.   Am I clear?  [Interpretation] Following that we used to draft the

 7     report that was to be sent to Zagreb on a 12-hour basis, and it comprises

 8     all the various activities that took place in the sector.  Then it would

 9     be sent and we received instructions from them regarding some main

10     activities or matters, or we follow up on what's happening until we draft

11     the report the following morning.  We used to engage in teamwork, and I

12     would like to say from the outset that all the reports that we sent were

13     the fruit of the efforts of all these concerned people.

14             This is on the practical side.  And also we used to engage in

15     some urgent matters such as, for instance, a complaint or problems

16     happening in the hospital.  For instance, they are short of fuel or they

17     don't have electricity.  That's why we used to quickly respond to these

18     requests, because the maternity department in the hospital used to need

19     fuel, electricity, and so on.

20        Q.   Let me ask you a little bit more specifically about the source of

21     the information that you relied upon in drafting your reports.  I

22     understand that you've said it's the fruit of many people's work, but in

23     terms of the information that you actually relied upon either to draft

24     the reports or subsequently when you went to your meetings to raise with

25     the Bosnian Serb officials and others that you met, what was the source

Page 3585

 1     of that information?  From where did it primarily come?

 2        A.   International observers were our main source, in addition to the

 3     information that we used to receive through the liaison officers

 4     belonging to the various warring factions.  They used also to bring us

 5     some information stating that some events took place in such area,

 6     et cetera.  And in such cases we used, for instance, sometimes to send

 7     someone in order to double-check this information, because based on our

 8     experience there were too many allegations.  That's why we used to send

 9     someone from the civil affairs or from the operations section or to also

10     assign some international observers who were located next to the area in

11     question.

12             And I hope that my next point will be very clear.  I know that

13     there were too many discussions about what I said then -- that sometimes

14     we used to gather information from the media.  We were surrounded by

15     media, and media people, journalists, were deployed everywhere, and they

16     used to come and to give us some information.  However, we used to

17     compare their statements, the information they gave us, with what we used

18     to receive from international observers, and this was the basis of our

19     modus operandi.

20        Q.   Thank you very much.  Let me you ask, did you rely on information

21     during your assignment in Sarajevo Sector -- first, did you rely on

22     information to prepare yourself for that assignment, and did you rely on

23     information from other sources, UN sources and other things, while you

24     were there as well to -- to know more about what the conflict was about

25     and what was occurring in the country?

Page 3586

 1        A.   As I said earlier, I was working prior to that mission in Angola,

 2     and I was about to return to my home country Egypt.  However, one year

 3     later, I received a request from the Secretary-General asking me --

 4     sorry, notifying me, and this was based on a letter by Mr. Goulding,

 5     whereby he told me that the Secretary-General would like you to be the

 6     commander of the Sarajevo Sector to -- and to replace General MacKenzie,

 7     who was a Canadian general.  He told me that we contacted Egypt, the

 8     Egyptian authorities, and they agreed, and the Secretary-General is keen

 9     to know whether you are also interested in this new appointment.  Of

10     course, we are soldiers, and when someone tells me Egypt agreed or

11     accepted, then -- then I started engaging in contacts with Mr. Goulding

12     and Mr. Annan in order to give me a briefing about the situation in

13     Yugoslavia in general and in Sarajevo in particular.

14        Q.   General, if I could, and I don't mean to cut you off, but did you

15     receive any documentation to review or either in preparation for your

16     assignment or during your assignment about the situation in -- in Bosnia?

17        A.   I received reports, detailed reports, about the situation in

18     Yugoslavia in general, starting with the political conflict until the

19     period of time that we were going through or living.  Mr. Goulding also

20     told me that there was a suspension of air activities or flying

21     activities on that particular date and that they were deploying

22     tremendous efforts in order to resume aircraft or flying activities.

23        Q.   I'd like to show you a document, if I could.

24        A.   [In English] Yeah.

25        Q.   It's 65 ter 3345, and while that's coming up, you might find it

Page 3587

 1     easier if -- if you like, you could remove your headphones since you

 2     are -- you'd be listening to me in English, and you won't need to hear, I

 3     don't think, the Arabic translation if you're responding to the extent

 4     that you can follow it in the transcript.  It might make things easier

 5     for you in that way, but we can proceed however is most comfortable for

 6     you.

 7        A.   I'm okay with this.

 8        Q.   I thought you might be.  Okay.  Do you recognise this document

 9     that we have here in e-court now?  It's a document dated 28th of August,

10     1992.  It's the Economic and Social Council.  You can see the heading on

11     it.  What I'd like to do is show you page number 2 of this document.  It

12     will be 2 in both languages.  And you can see under item 1(A):

13     "Observations Concerning the Situation of Human Rights in the Areas

14     Visited."  Under item (A) it refers to "The policy of ethnic cleansing."

15     Now that -- first, is that something that you referred to in your

16     statement?  You'll have to answer in the record.

17        A.   [Interpretation] Regarding this question and before answering, I

18     would like to clarify one point.  In the various UN programmes or

19     agencies throughout the world, we received too many reports about what's

20     happening in the various UN agencies and missions in the framework of

21     co-operation, co-ordination, and also the reassignment of some stuff from

22     one mission to another.  So we have been following up since the beginning

23     the events that were happening in Yugoslavia.  And let me be very frank

24     with you, I was very sad to see the events unfolding in Yugoslavia

25     because it was a country that was on very good terms with my country,

Page 3588

 1     Egypt.  And when I was appointed to head the Sarajevo Sector, I was very

 2     sad because this was not my will.  I wanted to go back to Egypt and to

 3     resume my career over there in my home country, but when I received the

 4     orders, then I had to abide.  And there were too many reports about

 5     ethnic cleansing in the media, as -- as well as in the reports that we

 6     used to receive from the United Nations, that ethnic cleansing was

 7     happening -- taking place in too many areas.  It wasn't a new event.  I

 8     was following up news about ethnic cleansing even before coming to

 9     Sarajevo.

10             And when I met with the Serbian ambassador in Angola, and he was

11     a friend of mine, we tackled this matter, and he told me that the reality

12     is different from what you read in the reports, but many other

13     ambassadors were -- used to tell him, "Come on.  It's already happening."

14     So this was a matter that was known to all.  I did not came up with this

15     expression.  It was happening.  It was taking place before I came to

16     Sarajevo, and it was well known to everybody.

17        Q.   Let me show you page 4 of this document, paragraph 7, in both

18     languages.  I think it's on page 4.

19             You can see here in paragraph 7 it says -- sorry, "The Special

20     Rapporteur was able to collect credible testimony concerning the policy

21     of ethnic cleansing and the methods applied to achieve its aim.

22     According to the testimony received, the policy has been openly pursued

23     on the territory of those parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia which

24     are controlled by ethnic Serbs."

25             Is this consistent with your observations during the time that

Page 3589

 1     you were stationed in Sarajevo?

 2        A.   I heard about this committee because it was -- that was happening

 3     around the same time when I arrived.  The instructions that I had

 4     received from General Nambiar before arriving to Sarajevo [In English]

 5     Yeah, I had to report to him before I go to Sarajevo.  [Interpretation]

 6     So he focused a lot and stressed a lot upon that point.  I told him what

 7     were the major challenges from your point of view as a force commander,

 8     and he indicated and talked about the heavy shelling against civilians --

 9        Q.   General, if I could just stop you for one moment.

10             Sorry, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Abdel-Razek.

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I noticed that you want to tell us about your

14     experience, but your answers are not always focused on the questions.  We

15     are limited in our time, so I would urge you to specifically answer to

16     the question that Mr. Vanderpuye puts to you.  The last question was

17     whether what you read in this paragraph 7, whether that is --

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Consistent.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether this was consistent with what you

20     experienced at the time you were in Sarajevo.

21             Now -- so what we'd like to know is what you read, whether that's

22     consistent with what you observed.  We were not asking to give all of

23     your observations to us, because we might still be here at the end of the

24     day, because you have experienced a lot, I take it, over there.  So the

25     question is does -- is this approximately what you observed at the time?

Page 3590

 1     Is it consistent with your observations?  A simple yes or no would do, or

 2     perhaps one or two lines.  But Mr. Vanderpuye, if he wants to know more

 3     he will ask you.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Okay, sir.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Okay, sir.  I apologise.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Thank you, General.  I take then it is consistent with your

10     experience?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could go to page 10 in the B/C/S, and it

13     will be page 8 in the English, paragraph 40.  We have to move over in the

14     English.  I think I said it was page 8.

15        Q.   At paragraph 40, you will see here that it says:

16             "The greatest threat to life at present" -- and remember this is

17     published or dated 28 August 1992.

18             "The greatest threat to life at present comes from the shelling

19     of civilian population centres and the shooting of civilians in besieged

20     towns.  In addition, there is a risk that massive numbers of civilians

21     will die from malnutrition, illness, and exposure unless the present

22     siege of various areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina under government control is

23     lifted before the arrival of winter."

24             In terms of the threat to the civilian population as a result of

25     shellings and shootings, is this paragraph consistent with your

Page 3591

 1     experience in Sarajevo?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   Let me show you another paragraph, and this is at page --

 4     paragraph 48, page 10 English, page 12 B/C/S.  In this paragraph - and

 5     I'll just read out the section, it will come up in a minute - it says:

 6             "The greatest difficulties are undoubtedly experienced in

 7     Sarajevo where UNPROFOR and UNHCR offices and vehicles frequently come

 8     under attack from shelling and snipers."

 9             Is that consistent with your experience?

10        A.   Yes, sir.

11        Q.   And finally let me show you paragraph 58, page 11 in the English,

12     page 14 in the B/C/S.  And it comes under the heading of

13     "Recommendations" in this report.  It says that:

14             "The heavy weaponry on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina should

15     immediately be neutralised by grouping them under the supervision of

16     UNPROFOR if necessary."

17             And then it says:

18             "The strict implementation of agreements adopted and the

19     principles endorsed by the London Conference in this regard is

20     indispensable."

21             First, are you familiar with the implementation of this

22     recommendation just in a general sense?

23        A.   [Interpretation] In fact, that was encouraged at the beginning,

24     because when I first arrived to Sarajevo, the London Conference had just

25     finished, and I learned from General Nambiar that there was commitment

Page 3592

 1     from the Serbs to collect all the weapons in one area.  That way it would

 2     be possible for the United Nations to monitor them.  But in reality, that

 3     did not happen.

 4        Q.   All right.  We'll come back to that in a moment.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document

 6     into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03345 becomes Exhibit P299,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed,

11     Mr. Vanderpuye.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   You noted in your statement -- several points in your statement

14     that you did meet rather regularly with the leadership of the warring

15     parties.  I'd like to focus you, if I could, on your meetings with the

16     Bosnian Serb leadership, President Karadzic and General Mladic,

17     Biljana Plavsic, and so on.  You outlined at paragraph 60 of your

18     statement, and there's no need to bring it up, a number of issues that

19     you raised, including the shelling of UN headquarters, UN facilities, the

20     shelling of civilians and civilian targets.  I'd like to ask you how

21     often was it that you raised the issue of shelling civilians and civilian

22     targets, snipings, and so on, in your dealings with the membership of the

23     Bosnian Serb leadership?  How frequently did that occur?

24        A.   That happened very frequently.  When I first arrived, the

25     shelling and the sniping, all this was taking place regularly in -- in

Page 3593

 1     the first two months that followed my arrival.  At the beginning of year

 2     1993, this started to decrease a little bit, because many diplomats and

 3     many UN dignitaries, Mr. Owen, for example, and Mr. Vance, they used to

 4     visit quite frequently, and that was an attempt on our behalf to improve

 5     the situation in Sarajevo, because when people knew that there were

 6     foreign dignitaries visiting, the situation usually calmed down.  But the

 7     shelling was quite heavy in the first two, three months following my

 8     arrival until the end of the year, and it was almost on a daily basis.

 9     It happened almost on a daily basis, and we had reports about people

10     being killed and injured.

11        Q.   Did you in particular raise these issues most frequently with the

12     civilian leadership or with the military leadership?

13        A.   With both of them.

14        Q.   And in respect of raising the issues with either of the civilian

15     leadership or the military leadership, was the result that you were able

16     to observe on the ground any different?

17        A.   What was said in the meetings was encouraging, and we heard a lot

18     of promises.  The atmosphere used to be very -- very positive in those

19     meetings.  However, the problem was always in the field in practice.

20     There were militias, there were people who were not disciplined, who were

21     not committed to these orders and instructions, and they carried weapons.

22     So the situation on the ground was totally different from what we agreed

23     upon or discussed in meetings.

24        Q.   You mentioned something here about orders and instructions, and

25     to what are you referring there?  You said there were people on the

Page 3594

 1     ground who were not disciplined, who were not committed to these orders

 2     and instructions, and I wondered what you meant by that.

 3        A.   As I already mentioned, even the leaders of the warring factions,

 4     they used to talk about the presence of people in civilian clothing

 5     carrying weapons and blocking the movements of UN convoys in certain

 6     areas.  And in one of the meetings with General Galic I raised that

 7     issue, and I think that he told me that he has given instructions to all

 8     the factions -- to all the individuals that are not within the military

 9     order, that do not follow the military order, and told them that they

10     should put an end to that situation.  But the situation remained as is.

11     He couldn't even achieve that, because there were many of these

12     individuals, and they were creating chaos.  And this is what civil wars

13     are all about everywhere.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I again intervene for a second.  I think the

15     question was about whether you observed on the ground any difference, and

16     that question was related to complaints about shelling and sniping.  What

17     you're telling us about what happened on the ground seems to be more

18     focused on your freedom of movement as international observers.  I think

19     Mr. Vanderpuye was primarily interested to know whether after such

20     meetings on the ground shelling and sniping were any different from what

21     they were before the meeting.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We used to agree, sir, during our

23     meetings on certain things, positive things.  For example, to ensure the

24     free work and the free movement of the United Nations and in order to

25     establish an atmosphere of trust between the United Nations and other

Page 3595

 1     parties.  And whenever we moved to the ground, we used to notice that on

 2     the ground the situation was completely different from what we had agreed

 3     upon, for the reasons that I just mentioned.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But apart from what you discussed in establishing a

 5     better relationship, you also raised the issue of sniping and shelling --

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- during the meetings.  Did that change after you

 8     had complained about it during the meetings?  Was the shelling less?  Was

 9     the sniping less?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The situation never changed,

11     and it keeped happening over and over despite the agreements.  And

12     whenever I went back to see them, I used to hear a lot of allegations

13     that this side did this or that, and we had to retaliate.  So none of the

14     sides really committed to the agreement, whether the agreements between

15     the warring factions or -- or the agreement -- other agreements -- and --

16     and the forces on the ground also did not commit to them.  And the

17     shelling continued, the bombing as well.

18        Q.   All right.  I'd just like to focus on those specific issues if we

19     could, and we -- you talked about a lot of the interruption or

20     interference with the freedom of movement of UN forces, but I'd like to

21     focus specifically on matters of shelling and sniping.  With respect to

22     those issues, did you raise them specifically with General Galic both

23     personally and in writing?

24        A.   On many occasions, whenever we had meetings and -- that issue was

25     on our agenda for the meeting.

Page 3596

 1        Q.   Did you communicate your protests or objections to the sniping

 2     and shelling beyond General Galic, to President Karadzic and to

 3     General Mladic?

 4        A.   That also was discussed and raised in many meetings that I used

 5     to have with Mr. Karadzic in the presence of General Mladic and

 6     Momcilo Krajisnik and Mrs. Plavsic.  We used to raise this issue -- a

 7     number of these issues with these people, including all the actions that

 8     were affecting civilians, the lives of civilians.

 9        Q.   Thank you, General.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, this is a good time for the

11     break.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take the break of approximately 20

13     minutes, Mr. Abdel-Razek.  By the way, I address you as Mr. Abdel-Razek

14     not to be impolite but that's my usual way of addressing persons, by Mr.

15     or Mrs., rather than by rank or title.

16             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, this is the second time to stand

17     before you.  I really -- I remember you very well.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's a different matter.  Could you please

19     follow the usher.

20             THE WITNESS:  Okay, thank you.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and resume at 10 minutes to

23     11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

Page 3597

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 2             The Chamber has understood that the witness is, for medical

 3     reasons, unable to be with us any longer than until 12.30, and then we

 4     wonder how we would use the time which then remains today because the

 5     witness will only be able to return tomorrow.

 6             Mr. Groome.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, so that we don't spend any of this

 8     limited time today, I would inform the Chamber that we received notice

 9     from VWS this morning that the next witness, RM081, it's their

10     recommendation that that witness not begin his testimony today.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. GROOME:  Perhaps we can talk about that in more detail at the

13     12.00 break about we can do.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber received the same information.

15     We'll consider it during the next break.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

19        Q.   General, I'd like to show you a few documents.  Let me start with

20     65 ter 10632.  First, do you recognise this document?  I see you

21     squinting.  Are you having trouble seeing it?

22        A.   [In English] No, it's okay.

23        Q.   Do you recognise it?

24        A.   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

25        Q.   It refers to the heavy weapons in BiH.  It indicates that it's

Page 3598

 1     from Goulding to Nambiar, and it's dated 28 August 1992, on the heels of

 2     the London Conference.  If we can go to the next page, it refers to the

 3     disposition of heavy weaponry.  In the second sentence it reads that:

 4             "The weaponry, once grouped, would be put under the continuous

 5     supervision of permanent UN observers."

 6             Does this correspond to your understanding or information

 7     concerning what was to happen with respect to Bosnian Serb heavy weaponry

 8     in your sector?

 9        A.   [Interpretation] To my recollection, this was sent from

10     Mr. Goulding to General Nambiar, and such similar documents were sent in

11     a copy to our command.  And Nambiar also mentioned it to me and told me

12     that the matter seems to be encouraging and that is a kind of agreement.

13     According to what Mr. Goulding told him earlier, that Mr. Karadzic and

14     Dr. Koljevic were committed to the gathering of heavy weapons and some

15     particular places and subject to control and supervision by the United

16     Nations.

17        Q.   Thank you, General.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to move to admit

19     this document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10632 becomes Exhibit P300, Your

22     Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P300 is admitted into evidence.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:

25        Q.   I'd like to show you 65 ter 10633, please.  This is a document,

Page 3599

 1     as you can see.  It indicates it's an outgoing code cable, and it's from

 2     General Nambiar to Mr. Goulding, dated 14 September 1992, and it concerns

 3     a meeting with Dr. Karadzic and Colonel Siber, and its says report from

 4     Sector Sarajevo.  Are you familiar with it?

 5        A.   [In English] The report that I sent to him about this meeting.

 6        Q.   Yes.  If we could please go to the second page.  I'd like to ask

 7     you just a couple of questions about it.  There you can see your name in

 8     the right-hand side of the box at the top of the page indicating

 9     releasing official; is that right?

10        A.   Yeah.

11        Q.   Okay.  And then you can see the discussion, the meeting, under

12     items 1(a), and so on.  First can you confirm that this is a meeting you

13     did in fact have -- you did in fact have with Dr. Karadzic?

14        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

15        Q.   And did it concern the heavy weapons that were discussed in the

16     previous document and the agreement or your understanding of agreement

17     with respect to their disposition?

18        A.   Heavy weapons were to be gathered in locations under the

19     supervision of the United Nations, and this was one of the main topics

20     that we discussed.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to move this document

22     into evidence as well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10633 becomes Exhibit P301, Your

25     Honours.

Page 3600

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P301 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   General, in your statement as concerns what happened to the

 4     agreement or understanding with respect to the heavy weapons, you

 5     indicate that it never actually came under the control, the supervision,

 6     of the UN in accordance with the understanding that had previously been

 7     reached.  Is that fair to say?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I confirm it.

 9        Q.   And in your statement you indicate that this was the result of --

10     or in your estimation, was the result of a decision that had been made

11     contrary to the prior agreement by the Serb -- Bosnian Serb leadership.

12     Is that fair to say?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Could you explain a little bit about that?  In your statement at

15     paragraph 28, you say that General Mladic was behind President Karadzic's

16     decision with respect to the disposition of heavy weapons.

17        A.   In fact, what Mr. Karadzic mentioned was very clear during the

18     London Conference, and also what General Nambiar told me was very clear.

19     Also, the letter sent by Mr. Goulding to General Nambiar was very clear,

20     and all of them were holding signs of optimisms.  However, we suddenly

21     found out that the explanation by Dr. Karadzic was totally different from

22     what he stated during the London Conference and what he committed to

23     respect during the Geneva negotiations.  He openly told me that Muslims

24     are too numerous, and we don't have any means but these weapons.  And he

25     told me that we should gather all these weapons in some locations and the

Page 3601

 1     UN should control the weapons in these locations.  And when things

 2     reached this level, I think that underneath it lies a military vision

 3     that came up and was added to his own visions, and his position differed

 4     accordingly.  And when we discussed the military matters, we should

 5     all -- always mention the top level in the chain of command.

 6        Q.   To your understanding in the circumstances that you were in, I

 7     take it that you assessed that that would have been General Mladic.

 8        A.   [In English] Yes.

 9        Q.   In terms of your experience as a general yourself and your

10     extensive experience in the armed forces, here you've assessed that --

11     well, let me ask you this way:  What is your assessment of the

12     interaction between the top levels of the military and the political --

13     the political branch in Bosnia -- in Bosnia during the time that you were

14     there?  What is your assessment of their inter-relationship between those

15     two parts of the government?

16        A.   [Interpretation] I used to see that there was a co-operation,

17     consent, and harmony in terms of the relationship between the political

18     command and the military command.  Also, I was notifying them of all the

19     points that I would be discussing with them.  And, of course, they had

20     the chance and the opportunity to co-ordinate their statements and

21     positions and answers regarding the matters that I would be raising.  I

22     hereby confirm that the relationship was interactive and also very

23     harmonious.

24        Q.   You mentioned a little while ago the chain of command, and in

25     fact you noted at your statement at paragraph 58 that General Mladic was

Page 3602

 1     a strict disciplinarian and his subordinates feared him and that he had

 2     the loyalty of his troops.  I wonder if you could first explain to us

 3     whether or not this is something that you observed personally while you

 4     were stationed in Sarajevo?

 5        A.   [No interpretation] ... and I always reiterate that this is my

 6     own personal impression.  And I can say --

 7        Q.   Let me just stop you for one second.  Part of your answer,

 8     unfortunately, wasn't translated into the record, and I wondered if --

 9     I'm sorry, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it in your hands.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   I wonder if you could perhaps repeat your answer, and I apologise

13     for that.

14        A.   [Interpretation] I would like to say that as soldiers, we can say

15     that a certain leader is a strong leader and -- if he enjoys the respect

16     and the loyalty of his staff, and I can say that General Mladic was

17     belonging to this category of military commanders.  He seemed to me to be

18     a strong commander, and he is a charismatic leader, and he always used to

19     be mentioned by his officers as a respectful commander.  And when he was

20     walking around, he was always surrounded by his officers, and we do not

21     miss -- or misinterpret the personality of military commanders when it

22     comes to us as soldiers.

23        Q.   Were you able to make that assessment in your dealings with

24     General Galic, for example, or with General Gvero?

25        A.   Yes.  When discussing these matters with them, I used always to

Page 3603

 1     see these characteristics.

 2        Q.   In your dealings with General Galic, first I'd like to ask you

 3     could you comment on the professionality, or lack thereof, of

 4     General Galic as you encountered him during the time that you were in

 5     Sarajevo?

 6        A.   My assessment of General Galic was the following one:  I think

 7     that he used to be a commander that obeyed orders as he used to receive

 8     them.  And if I was to take him to another area or to another assignment,

 9     he wouldn't be able to interact with me.  He seemed to me as he was a

10     commander that was strictly obeying the orders he was receiving.  At the

11     end of the day, he was a professional officer.

12        Q.   I'd like to show you 65 ter -- 65 ter 9648.  This, as you can

13     see, is an order from the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,

14     General Galic, and he's directing subordinate units of the corps with

15     respect to the use of weapons, in effect prohibiting the use of certain

16     weapons, certain calibres, until beginning 10 October 1992 up until

17     further notice.  As you can see, the order is dated 10 October 1992.

18        A.   [In English] Yes.

19        Q.   First, can you recall -- and it appears to be that no such heavy

20     weapons were to be used from this moment forward.  Is that your

21     understanding of this order as well?

22        A.   Such a document would have been sent following intensive protests

23     or complaints, but it wasn't respected.  And according to my

24     recollection, he told me that he issued this order, but it was up to the

25     other party or side to observe it.  In all cases, this order was never

Page 3604

 1     respected.

 2        Q.   Thank you, General.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to tender this

 4     exhibit as well.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Sorry.  Yes.  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 09648 becomes Exhibit P302, Your

 7     Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P302 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If I could show the

10     witness, please, 65 ter 10738.

11        Q.   Do you recognise this document, General?  It indicates note for

12     Thornberry.  Do you know who Thornberry is?

13        A.   Yeah.

14        Q.   And it's dated 8 October 1992.  And it says:  "This morning upon

15     your question I called Mr. Ahtisaari in his Geneva office and reported to

16     him the following."

17        A.   Usually this kind of document would be sent by the civil affairs,

18     and he is the subordinate of Mr. Thornberry.  He used to prepare such

19     reports and submit them to me in order to discuss the humanitarian

20     problems, whether from a military perspective or with regards to the lack

21     of materials.

22        Q.   Who would that be?

23        A.   At that time in October, I think it was Mr. Abdel-Razek,

24     Adnan Abdel-Razek.

25        Q.   With respect to what's discussed here in paragraph 1, this is two

Page 3605

 1     days before you see the order from General Galic, it says:

 2             "The general mood of Sarajevo people has reached the lowest level

 3     that I have seen since last April.  The lack of water and electricity

 4     together with the continuing shelling of civilian targets have pushed

 5     people to the edge of tolerance and caused a high degree of despair and

 6     aggressiveness."

 7             That consistent with your observations during this period of

 8     time?

 9        A.   Yes.  As I already mentioned, the shelling during the three first

10     months after my arrival to Sarajevo, the shelling was very heavy.  There

11     were many problems, and the civilians were heavily affected, and really

12     that was the atmosphere that was prevalent at the time.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  Mr. President.  I would like to

14     tender this document as well.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10738 becomes Exhibit P303, Your

17     Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P303 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed,

19     Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd like to show the

21     witness 65 ter 9389, please.  Okay.  I understand it's already P296.

22        Q.   You may recognise this document as well.  It's indicated here as

23     an outgoing cable from General Nambiar to Mr. Goulding, and it concerns a

24     letter that was received from General Mladic.  The date of this document

25     is 15 September 1992.  And if we can go to the next page, I'll -- I'll

Page 3606

 1     show you what I'm interested in.  Thank you.

 2             General, with respect to this document, can I ask why is it

 3     specifically sent to General Mladic as opposed to General Galic or anyone

 4     else that you might have been dealing with from Sector Sarajevo?

 5        A.   When there are lots of acts of violence in several sectors,

 6     usually a letter is sent signed by the force commander.  If the acts of

 7     violence were limited to one specific sector, the sector commander, upon

 8     his own initiative or upon the directives of the force commander, can

 9     raise the issue that led to these acts of violence with the relevant

10     parties.  But let's suppose that the acts of shelling and acts of

11     violence were -- were widespread.  In various sectors, the letter would

12     be addressed from the force commander to the higher commander.

13        Q.   And in relation to the substance that's discussed in this letter

14     at paragraphs 3 and 4, in paragraph 3 specifically, it says:

15             "Allow me to convey to you my deep dismay at the indiscriminate

16     shelling of civilian targets in Sarajevo and Bihac yesterday."

17             This is dated 15 September.  I'll read to you that part, and then

18     in paragraph 4, the second sentence reads that:

19             "Regrettably, we are yet to see concrete proof of the spirit of

20     the London Agreement."

21             Now, with respect to the substance of these -- of these two

22     paragraphs, was that your experience also with respect to what you

23     observed in the Sarajevo Sector?

24        A.   [In English] Yes, sir.

25        Q.   Thank you, General.  I would like to move on to a different area.

Page 3607

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask you something, Mr. Vanderpuye.  In your

 2     list of document it is said Nambiar Satish letter to Mladic, Ratko

 3     regarding indiscriminate shelling of Sarajevo, dated 15th of September,

 4     1992.  This is a letter from Mr. Nambiar to Mr. Goulding, not to Mladic,

 5     but I would like to ask the witness if he can say something about the

 6     meaning of what is written on the bottom of this page,

 7     "Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic."  Have you any idea why his name is

 8     mentioned on the bottom of that page?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what we call a circulation

10     of documents.  For example, if Mr. Nambiar sends any message to any high

11     commander, we receive a copy of that document at the sector, at the

12     relevant sector.  And if the issue is related to agreements, a copy is

13     sent to the relevant person at the United Nations, and at the time it was

14     Mr. Goulding.  Also, a copy is sent to Mr. Vance and Mr. Owen.  This is

15     how a document is circulated in the UN jobs.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you saying that this document was only

17     circulated among UNPROFOR officers and not addressed to people outside

18     UNPROFOR; is that correct?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, if you look at the person to

20     whom the letter is addressed, the letter says, "My dear General."  This

21     letter was addressed by Mr. Nambiar, and it's signed by him.  It's

22     addressed to Mr. Mladic.  A copy is sent just for info, but it is

23     personally and directly addressed to General Mladic.  And if you look at

24     the content, this clarifies it.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Perhaps if we can go to the cover page that

Page 3608

 1     might assist -- that might assist, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this clarification.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And the cover letter deals with two letters.  Would

 4     we see the other one of the 10th of September as well?

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm afraid that's not on my exhibit list, no,

 6     Mr. President.  But we can see from this letter that -- the letter that's

 7     attached, it says letter dated 10 September, received from

 8     General Mladic, and a reply thereto is attached.  We don't have the reply

 9     but we have the letter.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  The letter is of the -- no.  The letter is

11     dated the 10th of September and apparently received from General Mladic.

12     What you are presenting us is the --

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Response.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I think the reply.  The response.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And why is the other letter not attached any more so

17     that we better understand to what it is a response?

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's a fair question, Your Honour, and I'll

19     look into it and I'll find out why it's not attached.  For the purpose of

20     this witness, however, I would still tender -- well, it is already

21     admitted, I believe, so I --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It is admitted already.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I won't belabour the point.  I will find the

24     other one or look into why we can't find it, if that will assist the

25     Chamber.

Page 3609

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   I'd like to show you a short video-clip if I could.  It's 65 ter

 4     22385A.  And we can just play it straight through.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 7        Q.   Before I go on to the next clip, I just want to ask you briefly,

 8     do you recognise what you were seeing there?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what do you recognise it to be?

11        A.   I can see here Mr. Owen and General Morillon and myself.  We

12     started at the Presidency and then we moved on to Pale, and there we were

13     received by Mr. Karadzic.  There was also Dr. Koljevic and

14     General Mladic.  Afterwards, we were joined by Mr. Krajisnik,

15     Momcilo Krajisnik.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  Mr. President, I'd like to tender

17     this clip before we go to the next one.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do I understand you do not want to rely on any

19     part spoken on the clip?

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  On this part, no.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 23385A becomes Exhibit P304, Your

23     Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd like to show

Page 3610

 1     65 ter 22385B.  I believe we do have a transcript of this part of the

 2     clip.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, waiting for the video, I'm also

 4     looking at the clock.  Your indication was one hour and a half, isn't it?

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It is, Mr. President.  I'm quite close.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Quite close.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:

11        Q.   I've stopped it here at it looks like 16:04.  Do you recognise

12     the individual coming up there in the middle of the screen to the right

13     of David Owen?

14        A.   That meeting was on the following day, because we didn't finish

15     the discussions on the first day.  So we went back to meet him a second

16     time.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you.  The question simply was who's the

18     person to the right of Mr. Owen, and I take it that Mr. Vanderpuye wanted

19     to refer to a person with the blue beret.

20             THE WITNESS:  To the right is [Interpretation] This is

21     Dr. Koljevic.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:

23        Q.   You mean the far right on the screen?

24        A.   Yeah.

25        Q.   Okay.  Let's start from the left.  If you can tell us, who's

Page 3611

 1     there on the left?

 2        A.   Dr. Owen, myself, General Morillon, and Dr. Karadzic,

 3     Dr. Koljevic.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  We can keep playing it from this

 5     point forward.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think that the transcript is not complete.  If

 7     you can clarify that, Mr. Vanderpuye.  One person is missing.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 9        Q.   Did you see yourself in the clip that we just played?

10        A.   [In English] Would you have it back, please, a little bit.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we play it again or go a bit -- a little

12     bit --

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Mr. Owen shaking hands with

15     Mr. Karadzic.  This is Dr. Koljevic and General Mladic, and this is

16     myself.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  For the record, that's at 16.7 in the video.

18     That is reference to General Abdel-Razek.  Okay.  We can play it from

19     this point forward, I think.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Mr. Owen.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:

23        Q.   Yes.  Can you tell us where is this --

24        A.   And I'm to his left.  This is in the meeting room.  The UN party

25     is to the right, the UN side, and I can see in the picture the special

Page 3612

 1     secretary Major Rida, and myself, and to my right is Mr. Owen, and next

 2     to him is General Morillon.  To the other side I can see Mr. Karadzic,

 3     and to his left General Mladic, and I cannot identify who is he talking

 4     to.

 5        Q.   Okay.  We'll play it through from this point.  Thank you,

 6     General.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to admit this video.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you want to rely on any text?

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I do intend to rely on the transcript.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we should play it again and then it should be

12     translated to us.  That's the routine in this courtroom.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  The interpreters wanted to

16     address us.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honour, the -- the -- it is by Mr. Owen in

18     English, by Lord Owen.  What do we have to interpret?  And the transcript

19     contains one mistake.  It says "announced" instead of "unannounced."  "I

20     went completely unannounced," Lord Owen said.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Vanderpuye --

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The English I expect to be translated for the

24     accused in B/C/S.  Yes.  No, I'm -- I know that perhaps I'm looking at

25     the wrong booth, but that's the reason why it is played for a second

Page 3613

 1     time.

 2             Mr. Vanderpuye, would you have verified the transcript where

 3     apparently the word "announced" should be "unannounced."  Check that

 4     perhaps together with the Defence and thank the booth for verifying the

 5     transcript.  That was exactly the purpose of this exercise.  And now we

 6     play it again and now it will be translated so that Mr. Mladic also can

 7     have the translation from English.  Please proceed.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             "Koljevic:  Hi, welcome to the Republika Srpska.

10             "Karadzic:  General Mladic.

11             "Mladic:  General Mladic.  Dobrodosli.

12             "Owen:  Nice to meet you.  Dr. Karadzic, pleased to meet you.

13             "Karadzic:  Welcome."

14             "Owen:  I went round the hospital in Sarajevo today, and I ...

15     this was very, very, very depressing.  I don't expect these days to go

16     into the recovery room and find a shell has gone through it.  It's of the

17     recovery room.  I went completely unannounced.  I didn't tell anybody.  I

18     didn't take any press.  I didn't make anything of it, I just went as a

19     doctor.

20              "Morillon:  ... mistake, because on the agreement it was

21     reviewed.  It was in case of a cessation and a ceasefire."

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think I heard in English "unannounced" as

23     well.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Indeed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  So it must be a mistake there.

Page 3614

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would -- I would

 2     tender the video subject to a corrected transcript.  Obviously we'll fix

 3     that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The number would be, Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22385B becomes Exhibit P305, Your

 6     Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is -- I would then mark it for identification

 8     until we have the new accurate transcript.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.  That makes a

10     lot of sense.

11             If I could show the witness the next document, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I'm a bit concerned about -- you said you

13     were close.  How close are you?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I've got two documents to show him and then I'll

15     be done.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Try to do it as efficiently as possible.

17     Please proceed.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  If I could show the witness, please,

19     65 ter 3771.  We don't have anything on the monitors.  Thank you.

20        Q.   General, this is a document.  It's a report that's issued on the

21     30th of September, 1992, and you can see that the headline refers to

22     "Serbs carry out," and it says, "ethnic cleansing operation in Bosnian

23     capital."

24             In the second paragraph of this document it refers to an

25     estimated 150 people forced from their homes in Grbavica, and the Bosnian

Page 3615

 1     police estimate this as 300 -- I'm sorry, 200 people.  First of all, do

 2     you have a recollection of an event like this transpiring during the time

 3     you were in Sarajevo?

 4        A.   [In English] Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you raise this issue with Bosnian Serb leadership to any

 6     extent?

 7        A.   Yes.  We mentioned that more than once with Mr. Galic --

 8     Mr. Galic and Ms. Plavsic.

 9        Q.   I'd just like to go to page 2 of this document just for a moment,

10     and you will see your name referenced in the middle of the page in

11     English where it says:

12             "UNPROFOR Sarajevo Commander Egyptian Brigadier-General Husein

13     Abdel-Razek also met Bosnian Serb leaders for several hours on Wednesday

14     at their military headquarters in Lukavica just south of the Bosnian

15     capital to continue seeking agreements."

16             Do you have a recollection of these meetings?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And it concerned, as is indicated here, the restoration of

19     electricity and water; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to introduce -- or I'd

22     like to admit this document as well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  What is it exactly, Mr. Vanderpuye?  It says that --

24     the heading is 45 of 500 the --

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's a press release.

Page 3616

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a press release.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03771 becomes Exhibit P306, Your

 5     Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd like to show the

 8     witness 65 ter --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's described as a press report.  Is a press

10     release the same as a press report?  I'm just --

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I understand it to be the same.

12     It's -- it's a report of the events like a newspaper report would be of

13     the events in question.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And who is Mr. Paul Basken?

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm afraid I don't know who Mr. Paul Basken is,

16     Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Is he a UN official or --

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  He's not.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  He's not a UN official, no.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there was no objection, but I'd like to know

22     exactly what kind of document this is.  It's not fully clear to me yet.

23     If we do not know who issued it --

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President.  That's why I was

25     asking the witness about the facts that are reported in it to determine

Page 3617

 1     whether or not they're accurate for the purposes of its admissibility.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If I could show the

 4     witness, please, 65 ter 3773.

 5        Q.   This is a document that's dated 30th September 1992, like the

 6     press report we just saw, and in the top you can see it says "UN CIVPOL

 7     Occurrence Report Sector Sarajevo."  Are you familiar with this report,

 8     General?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And it says the nature of event, expulsion of Muslim citizens

11     from Grbavica.  In quotes -- I mean in parentheses it says Serbian

12     occupied territory.

13             If we go to the bottom of the page, and I think we may have to

14     go -- well, we can start on the -- on this page in the B/C/S and then go

15     to the next page, but it talks about at 1645 the unit comes across some

16     25 people with luggages, and then if you look further down the payment,

17     you'll see that it reference to some 300 Muslim civilians having been

18     expelled by the Serbs during the day from the area of Grbavica, 150 of

19     them gathered at the Bristol Hotel.  Are you familiar -- first of all, is

20     this the same event that's reported in the -- in the press report we just

21     looked at?

22        A.   Yes, I remember it.

23        Q.   And this indicates that this report is from Sector Sarajevo.  Is

24     this part of the structure of your unit, your command?

25        A.   Yes.  Mr. Adnan went there, and I think that he was accompanied

Page 3618

 1     by Major Rida, our own secretary, so that they can double-check what was

 2     happening there.

 3        Q.   Thank you, General.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to tender this document as well,

 5     Mr. President.  And that will conclude my direct, as I'm out of time, and

 6     I appreciate your indulgence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03773 becomes Exhibit P307, Your

 9     Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, and it is admitted into evidence.

11             Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  How going to cross-examine the

12     witness?  Will it be --

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  My

14     name is Milan Petrusic and I will cross-examine the general.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course we are familiar with your name.

16     But, Mr. Petrusic, the Chamber is inclined to continue sitting until

17     12.30 and not have the short break, because we most likely will not sit

18     any further today because the next witness is not ready to start

19     testimony, and we have to conclude at 12.30 the examination at least for

20     today.

21             Mr. Abdel-Razek, you would be available again tomorrow?

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Mr. Petrusic, please proceed.

24             Mr. Abdel-Razek, Mr. Petrusic you'll find him to your left and he

25     is a member of the Defence of Mr. Mladic.

Page 3619

 1             Mr. Petrusic, and could you give us an indication of how much

 2     time you'd need?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll gladly answer.

 5     First I'd like to know, though, whether we will follow the same schedule

 6     tomorrow and finish by 12.30.  If so, I will limit my examination

 7     accordingly and possibly even leave some time for redirect for the OTP.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That is appreciated, Mr. Petrusic.  You may proceed.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] General, sir, can you tell us briefly something

11     about the information you received in your country?  You received it from

12     the then Yugoslav ambassador, and I'm interested in how useful that

13     information was and how accurate and truthful did you find it to be as

14     compared to the situation that you found upon your arrival in Sarajevo?

15        A.   Regarding this question, at that time I was not in Egypt.  I was

16     in Angola, and I was in charge of the observers' mission.  And during my

17     assignment in Angola I had many contacts, including the Serbian

18     ambassador in Angola, and I was keen to learn from him in person the

19     position and the political background.  We used to held meetings, regular

20     meetings, be it in his embassy or in the Egyptian embassy in Angola, and

21     we used to discuss these matters based on my discussions with him, based

22     also on media reports, and also based on what I received from

23     Mr. Goulding and Mr. Annan I was able to have some knowledge about the

24     situation on the ground.

25        Q.   General, sir, the first topic I'd like to discuss has to do with

Page 3620

 1     paragraphs 1838 and 106.  It refers to your efforts in dealing with

 2     humanitarian issues such as the supply of water, electricity, and gas to

 3     the city.  In that regard, I wanted to ask you the following:  Did you

 4     know that even prior to your arrival there were problems concerning the

 5     meeting of humanitarian needs and supply in the region of Sarajevo?

 6        A.   When I arrived to Sarajevo, the problems were already existent,

 7     but these problems were not prevailing all over the city.  Some areas

 8     were provided with electricity, water.  However, as a result of heavy

 9     shelling, the situation started to deteriorate, and we were starting the

10     season of winter, cold weather, and this -- this is what aggravated the

11     problem, and this is why the problem was discussed and tackled at all

12     levels.  But the problem was already existent before I arrived.

13        Q.   In these talks were you aware that the transmission lines for

14     supplying electricity in all of Republika Srpska, including Sarajevo,

15     went mainly through areas controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska?

16        A.   This was a technical issue, and I asked Mr. Ganic and

17     Mrs. Plavsic to appoint experts along with the experts or technical

18     advisors of the United Nations professional technical engineers - they

19     were extremely professional - and to tell me where lies the problem and

20     how can we find a solution to this problem, be it in the territories that

21     were under the control of the Presidency or the Bosnians.

22             I remember in this regard an area located between Sarajevo and

23     Ilidza, close to Ilidza, and they said that transmission lines can be

24     repaired and electricity restored, and we can thus improve the supply of

25     water, et cetera.

Page 3621

 1             I offered an initiative to establish a technical working group,

 2     and this group was successful to a large extent, and I received -- when I

 3     was commander of the sector, I received thanks from various factions for

 4     achieving success in this matter, and we were happy to have electricity

 5     restored as well water.  However, whenever clashes used to erupt, all

 6     these solutions would be -- would end.

 7             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] in keeping with that, I would like

 8     to ask for 1D330.  Page 3 in B/C/S and page 2 in the English version.

 9        Q.   And may I ask you to focus on paragraph 4 in English, which

10     begins with the words "To repair transmission installations."  It's the

11     third paragraph from the bottom of this page.  "To repair relay

12     facilities."  Have you found it, General?

13        A.   [In English] No, not yet.  Number 4?  What's on here is until

14     article 3.

15        Q.   It's the third paragraph from the bottom which begins with the

16     words "To repair relay facilities."

17        A.   Yeah, yeah, yeah.  I got it.

18        Q.   These are minutes from the session of the Government of Republika

19     Srpska held just before your arrival.  Can we conclude that even before

20     you arrived, the Government of Republika Srpska raised this problem of

21     electricity and water supply to the highest level, which we see from the

22     very fact that it's discussed at cabinet meetings?  Would you agree with

23     this?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, do you want the witness to conclude

25     this on the basis of this document, because whether the witness has any

Page 3622

 1     personal knowledge about it, we do not know.  If you want to bring this

 2     to the attention of the Chamber, it could perhaps be done by other means

 3     such as to tender this document from the bar table.  But to ask the

 4     witness to read it, if he has no knowledge about it, and then to ask him

 5     to confirm that what is written here is true or whether that he can

 6     confirm that, that's of course a bit problematic as you well understand.

 7             Mr. Vanderpuye, would there be any objection against having this

 8     document in evidence where it -- at least that's what the Defence says,

 9     where it is showing that matters were discussed at a certain level at a

10     certain date.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President.  I accept Mr. Petrusic's

12     representation with respect to the document.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, these are minutes.  So if the witness knows

14     anything about it, ask him.  If not, there is no objection against

15     drawing our attention to what was said in the minutes of the 8th of

16     August, 1992, the minutes of the session of the Serb Republic of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina government.  Proceed as you --

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your leave,

19     I'd like to explain briefly.  My intention was to present this document

20     to the general, because the document clearly shows that the intention of

21     the Bosnian Serb government was to resolve this problem, and the

22     intention was there even before the general arrived.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You're giving evidence whether there was intention

24     or not.  What we see on our screen is that apparently the matter has been

25     discussed if the minutes are accurate, minutes during this session.  Now,

Page 3623

 1     if the witness knows anything about this, ask him.  If the witness is

 2     supposed just to read the document and say, Well, if that's the case,

 3     there was an intention.  And of course you ask him to do something, you'd

 4     better ask the Chamber to do.

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6        Q.   General, do you know something that's in this document that's

 7     still on the screen about activities undertaken by the Government of

 8     Republika Srpska to resolve the problem of power shortages and blackouts?

 9        A.   Sir, I can confirm that in all the meetings, my meetings, with

10     Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Karadzic, whether meetings with myself or in the

11     presence of Mr. Goulding and Mr. Morillon, and meetings with Mr. Owen, in

12     all these meetings what we heard was very positive.  And I recall

13     Mr. Karadzic saying, "This is my city, and I'm keen on providing it with

14     lots of things."  But we used to notice that on the other side -- or at

15     the other hand, they wanted to repair the telephone lines or something

16     like that.  So it was all very relative.  So we heard very positive

17     comments.  The intentions were very good.  So both sides had control of

18     some of the utilities, and it was obviously a war game between the two.

19     I think what matters are not the intentions but the actions, these things

20     that were essential for the people, for the individuals living there.

21     All of us at the level of command of the UN or forces on the ground, we

22     were all keen on achieving this.

23             But to get back to your question, yes, there were intentions,

24     and, yes, they did provide us with technicians.  And I organised that

25     meeting at the airport, and I attended the meeting, and they did do some

Page 3624

 1     work, but some militias were shooting at them, especially from the

 2     Serbian side.  This is something -- this is an information that I

 3     received in a report from the observers and from the technical committee,

 4     and that committee was composed of French nationals.  And the report said

 5     that they were shot at.  Despite that, we continued our actions and we

 6     did succeed on many occasions in restoring electricity and water in

 7     particular, but we still faced problems with fuel and gas.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand you well, Mr. Petrusic, that your

 9     question was about whether the witness was aware of any government

10     initiative prior to him dealing with this matter and already positive --

11     positively seeking to resolve the problems?  Was that what you wanted to

12     ask the witness?  Yes.  Then I would have interrupted the witness halfway

13     where he did not answer your question.  He was talking about his

14     experience rather than about his knowledge.

15             Do you have any knowledge of the government dealing with these

16     matters before your arrival?  By the government.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the problem was very

18     difficult in my presence.  It was very serious.  Before I arrived, I was

19     told --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any knowledge about the government being

21     involved in resolving this problem prior to your arrival?  Do you know

22     anything about whether they discussed it or whether -- what they did

23     or -- prior to your arrival?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, when I arrived, I noticed that

25     the problem was already there, and I learned that there were attempts,

Page 3625

 1     there had been attempts, from both sides to repair the electricity lines

 2     and the water pipes.  However, due to the violence, everything stopped.

 3     So there had been attempts.  And I started from these attempts to

 4     continue and to establish their technical committee composed of

 5     representatives of various sides in order to continue the efforts.

 6     However, there were attempts, and I knew about them.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you have no personal knowledge of it apart

 8     from having heard about such attempts.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, we'll now move to a completely different subject,

13     although I meant to discuss this, but you've said enough.  When you

14     arrived on the 21st of August in Sarajevo, were you briefed in the first

15     few days about the existence of military units in the Sarajevo region,

16     units controlled by the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17        A.   [Interpretation] I'm sorry, the question is not very clear.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the question.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   General, when you arrived in Sarajevo, did anyone inform you

21     which military units and formations were based in the Sarajevo region and

22     controlled by the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23        A.   When I first arrived to Zagreb, I received a briefing from

24     Mr. Nambiar and his command, and we looked at the map, and we talked

25     about the situation, the situation of the forces in the Sarajevo Sector.

Page 3626

 1     We discussed the problems.  So I had enough time to get acquainted with

 2     the situation when I was in Zagreb.  And when I arrived at the end of the

 3     day, I arrived in the afternoon, I asked to receive a briefing about the

 4     situation in the sector.  We discussed the situation for about two hours

 5     in order to determine where are the forces, the Bosnian forces, where are

 6     the Serbian forces, where are the UN positions, the observer positions,

 7     what are the vital targets in the sector, what are the major problems in

 8     the sector.  This is something normal for any commander to be acquainted

 9     with at the beginning of his duties.  I was well aware of the situation.

10     Furthermore, I had a map that I often referred to to determine the

11     locations of the various forces.  This is how I used to follow up on the

12     movements of any vehicle -- any UN vehicle moving inside the sector.

13        Q.   Was there in Sarajevo the command of the 1st Corps of the Army of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Were they based there?

15        A.   [In English] I'd say it is a pie in the sky.  I don't remember

16     really.  But I know the -- I know the -- the 1st Corps headquarter, I

17     used to have a meeting with -- with the commander there, but I don't

18     remember whereabout.  I don't remember it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but Mr. Abdel-Razek, you -- the -- yes, first

20     question you confirm that the --

21             THE WITNESS:  The headquarter of the corps --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the headquarters was in Sarajevo.

23             THE WITNESS:  In Sarajevo, yes, yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But you do not know exactly where.

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

Page 3627

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was a bit ambiguous as to were they

 2     based there.  It seems to limit the question only to whether they were in

 3     Sarajevo and that you can confirm.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Next question, please.

 6             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did you know the deployment of that unit in the zone of Sarajevo

 8     under the command of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 9        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.  However, it was from a UN perspective.

10     So, for example, when we say that here we have a battalion in the sector,

11     for example, but if we look at the details, these details were not

12     available to us because we are not on the front line.  But we can

13     confirm, for example, that in this location there are forces from that

14     side, and in that other location there are forces belonging to the other

15     side.  But we do not know that specifically, where is each unit

16     specifically, because, sir, we -- we didn't have enough staff, enough

17     individuals.

18        Q.   Was any military unit deployed in the city itself?  Did you have

19     occasion to see any such military unit in the city?

20        A.   Inside the city and particularly in the sector where I was

21     operating, there were points.  For example, in the street we would be

22     able to determine that there is a military point or a position with the

23     light weapons, and I would have, for example, one armoured vehicle.  And

24     we used to see them moving inside the city, but they were not military

25     positions per se.  I never saw a military position per se from my -- from

Page 3628

 1     a military perspective.  I didn't see any military posts, any weapons

 2     posts.  There were some forces inside the city, whereas the major forces

 3     were stationed outside the city.  And we would be able to monitor, for

 4     example, the shelling from one side or from the other side.

 5        Q.   What about military units under the command of the government of

 6     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Those that were around the city, did they also

 7     hold some of the important higher ground around Sarajevo, some

 8     elevations?

 9        A.   What I can confirm is the following:  They did have mortars, and

10     I highly objected to that when I talked to Mr. Ganic and Colonel Siber.

11     He was the military representative in the government.  I told him that

12     there were some semi tracks that were coming close to the PTT building,

13     to the command building, and firing from that position, and then they

14     would -- they would leave.  And we would be faced with the retaliation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the situation, but there

17     was no heavy artillery or tanks inside the city.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Abdel-Razek, could I ask you to focus your

19     answer on what was asked.  The question was whether there were any BiH

20     government troops holding positions at the high grounds around the city.

21     That was the question.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us a lot, but it's still not clear to me

24     whether those troops were holding positions at the high grounds around

25     the city.  Could you tell us whether they did?

Page 3629

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.  I know that there were

 2     forces around the city from both sides.  And concerning the Presidency

 3     forces, they were inside the city and they had forces around the city, at

 4     the limits of the city.  I know that very well.  However, they didn't

 5     have heavy weapons.  They had a lot of weapons.  I can confirm that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  For the Presidency forces, they also had positions

 7     on the high grounds around the city?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Not on the high ground.  Not on the mountain.  The

 9     mountain dominated by -- by the Serb forces.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Petrusic.

11             Mr. Abdel-Razek, we will finish for the day.  We'd like to see

12     you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.  I'd like instruct you that you should

13     not speak or communicate with whomever about the testimony, either the

14     testimony you've given today or the testimony still to be given tomorrow.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

21             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I will try tomorrow to put

22     questions in such a way that the witness should be able to answer very

23     quickly, but if his testimony continues as today, I'm not sure I will

24     manage that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, it's your task to take him back on

Page 3630

 1     track.  I mean, I did it a couple of times after he had gone on for 20,

 2     30 lines, but it's your task to do that.  You can do it in two ways.  The

 3     one is to put clear, concrete questions about facts.  The second way of

 4     dealing with this is that if he is going away from what you want him to

 5     tell us, then please take him back.  Of course, if -- finally I'll do it,

 6     but if you do it yourself, then you certainly will be able to achieve

 7     what you intend to achieve tomorrow.

 8             We adjourn for the day -- yes, Mr. Groome.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just briefly.  Since the time

10     limitation that the witness has is roughly equivalent to the time

11     limitation that the interpreters have doing two-way interpretation, can I

12     suggest that we proceed with two-way interpretation tomorrow.  I believe

13     it will not only perhaps have a -- result with a clearer understanding of

14     the question, but if seems to me that the witness is listening to the

15     English translation of his own speech, and perhaps that would speed

16     things up if we proceed in that way.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's certainly a matter to consider.  As a matter

18     of fact, we suggested the way in which we proceeded today not knowing yet

19     at that moment - or at least not fully aware of that - the time limits

20     for the witness were the same as for the interpreters.  So that might

21     speed up tomorrow.  And if there would be any time -- first of all,

22     Mr. Petrusic, I did not put on the record yet that your assumption was

23     right, that the witness can continue tomorrow until 12.30.  And if then

24     the next witness would be ready after that, that would -- then we would

25     not lose further time.

Page 3631

 1             MR. GROOME:  We have no information to say that the witness could

 2     not be, Your Honour, so the Prosecution's ready.  The Defence is ready.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness -- it was preferred that the witness not

 4     start today, and that's reality by now.

 5             We adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow, Friday, the

 6     5th of October, at 9.30 in this same Courtroom I.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.32 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Friday the 5th day

 9                           of October, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.