Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4043

 1                           Friday, 12 October 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused not present]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Wilson.

14             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, are you ready to continue your

16     cross-examination?

17             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  And ...

18             Your Honour, as I requested yesterday, the time that we requested

19     for this witness was one full session today but we will try and limit

20     that, and I do apologise for this discrepancy between the time that we

21     requested and the time that we actually will use.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But what I'd forgotten is to remind Mr. Wilson

23     that he is still bound by his solemn declaration he gave in the beginning

24     of his testimony.

25                           WITNESS:  JOHN WILSON [Resumed]

Page 4044

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So you may proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic: [Continued]

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] General, sir, we left off yesterday in

 5     mid-sentence, as it were, and it was that proposition that I made.  We

 6     were discussing the column leaving.  That's on line 15, page 4039 of the

 7     transcript.

 8             We said that that was in March 1992, and my -- I put it to you

 9     that that event actually occurred on the 15th of May, and that on this

10     occasion, some 59 members, JNA members, were killed while this column was

11     trying to pull out.

12             Now, would you agree with that?

13        A.   I think your date is probably more likely to be correct than

14     mine, but I'm unaware of the exact number of people who were injured or

15     killed in the incident.

16        Q.   But in any case, you do know that there were casualties, both

17     dead and wounded.

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   General, sir, if we know that on the 3rd of May during the

20     evacuation of the command in Sarajevo there was an incident, and that

21     there was an incident while the garrison was trying to pull out of Tuzla,

22     and that there was another incident when the Jusuf Dzonlic barracks was

23     evacuated - that was in Sarajevo - would you then agree with me that

24     General Mladic's concern for the security of these pullouts was quite

25     justified?

Page 4045

 1        A.   I know nothing of the detail of the first two barracks

 2     evacuations, but on the basis of the Jusuf Dzonlic barracks, the

 3     execution of that evacuation, I think General Mladic had reason to be

 4     nervous about the success of executing the Marsal Tito barracks.

 5        Q.   General, sir, answering the Prosecutor's question on page 3966

 6     about the evacuation of the Jusuf Dzonlic barracks you said that around

 7     30 vehicles were lost on the following day, as well as 30 men.

 8             Now, in the days that followed, did you learn anything about the

 9     fate of these 30 men?

10        A.   Only to the extent that neither side seemed to be particularly

11     concerned about it within about 48 hours of the event, so I assume it was

12     resolved satisfactorily.  Neither side asked us to take any action to

13     assist them to resolve the issue.  So I assume it was satisfactorily

14     fixed.

15        Q.   Could we now have P321, please, on the monitors.  We need page 7

16     in the B/C/S, in the Serbian version, and page 7 as well in the English

17     version.

18             You know this document.  It is about the evacuation of the JNA

19     garrison, and it -- from the barracks, and it was compiled on the

20     20th of May.

21             Now, General, sir, on page 3941 of October 10, you said that in

22     the end it was General Mladic who prevented their pullout from the city,

23     and you were referring to the pullout of some 2.000 people that were

24     supposed to be evacuated by -- through a humanitarian organisation from

25     Sarajevo and taken to the coast.

Page 4046

 1             Now, General, sir, if you now take a look at the next page -

 2     that's paragraph 8 in English - there it says that Colonel Cadjo, the

 3     liaison officer, JNA liaison officer, called to advice that

 4     General Mladic had heard that the column with children was not to leave

 5     that night.

 6             Now, General, sir, my question is this:  Did you ever hear from

 7     Colonel Cadjo that General Mladic --

 8             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, I think my friend may have misspoken when

 9     he was reading the text, at least as it appears in English.  I heard him

10     to say, General Mladic had heard that the children's embassy or convoy is

11     not to leave tonight when it is written that "General Mladic had word."

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If we all agree on that to be the proper reading

13     then it is hereby corrected.

14             And you may proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   I can accept that.  But my question was really about something

17     else.  So General, sir, did you ever hear from Colonel Cadjo that

18     General Mladic had ordered that this children convoy was not to leave on

19     that night?

20        A.   I don't know the source of the information 20 years after the

21     event, but it was quite clear -- it is quite clear in my recollection

22     that the convoy was not going anywhere without General Mladic's authority

23     and he was tying its release in events to the barracks.  He was using the

24     convoy as a bargaining tool.  Whether it was Colonel Cadjo or

25     General Mladic who said the convoy wasn't leaving, I can't remember.

Page 4047

 1        Q.   Now, if we look at the previous page, or, actually, paragraph 5

 2     of this document, you will see there, and let me ask if you will agree

 3     with me, that after the agreement was reached the Presidency called and

 4     came up with a new proposition, proposal, that the JNA did not accept; in

 5     other words, was it the Presidency that changed the agreement that had

 6     previously been agreed around this convoy?

 7        A.   It may well have been.  There was constant bargaining going

 8     backwards and forwards.  I'm simply in this cable stating what the

 9     bargaining position was at a point in time.  At some point after this

10     cable the children were -- were -- the convoy was released.  Barracks was

11     delivered to the food [sic] and both sides were happy.  Counsel, this is

12     just a record of bargaining positions at -- at a point in time before it

13     is finally resolved.

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have 65 ter 27602.

15        Q.   General, sir, this is an intercept dated the 24th of May, 1992,

16     and in the middle of page 1 you can see that one of the participants in

17     this conversation was Milosav Gagovic, and he says there that the Viktor

18     Bubanj barracks had been evacuated and that they had left alive healthy

19     and there was not a bullet was fired?

20             Now, on the following page - in English that will be page 3,

21     line 2, starting with RM, the initials RM.  And in the original -- in the

22     original transcript, it says Ratko Mladic.  And then we can read the

23     following:

24             "Pass on the message to your men to keep the situation calm.  Do

25     not allow any shooting anymore, otherwise you will spoil things for me.

Page 4048

 1     Inform all your people that Viktor Bubanj barracks has been relocated

 2     with no casualties or fire."

 3             General, sir, now when you see this intercept, can you tell us

 4     what it is in your view that General Mladic is referring to when he says

 5     "do not allow any shooting anymore, otherwise you'll spoil things for

 6     me"?

 7        A.   My interpretation is that he is seeking to impose a cease-fire in

 8     that area and he doesn't want his soldiers in that area firing or it may

 9     disrupt future evacuations of the barracks.  And he demonstrates, if not

10     on this occasion but certainly on other occasions, that when he wants to

11     he can impose a cease-fire on the city.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's continue with this intercept.  Let's see now page --

13     the following -- the next page in English where Ratko Mladic says:

14             "And we should not burn and destroy all around us.  Let's give

15     peace a chance."

16             General, sir, when it says "burn and destroy," does that imply

17     the use of some artillery weapon?

18        A.   It includes, in my view, all types of firing.  He is trying to

19     calm down one of his commanders.  He's trying to make sure the situation

20     is quiet so he is unlikely to be using wild or provocative language.  He

21     is trying to calm people down here.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, I'm still not seeing the portion of the

23     intercept that was being referred to about burning everything down.  I'm

24     not sure what page this is on in English.

25             Oh -- I think -- I see the line.  I think it's just perhaps

Page 4049

 1     not -- the translation -- is my friend referring to where he says, "and

 2     we shall not destroy everything around us"?  That is what is written in

 3     English.

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] That's precisely it.  It is

 5     probably to do with the translation or interpretation.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

 7             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will

 8     propose, will move to tender this document, with -- to MFI it, in view of

 9     the Defence's position regarding our -- the final decision about

10     intercepts.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to understand this.  You ask

12     questions and you ask, How do you understand this, Mr. Mladic said this,

13     How did you interpret that?  And at the same time you're reserving the

14     right to challenge the authenticity of it.  How would we understand the

15     testimony of this witness if you say, Well, but we say it's not

16     Mr. Mladic but please tell us what Mr. Mladic said or how we have to

17     understand that.  Isn't that a bit inconsistent, Mr. Petrusic?

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I can agree with you.  However, if

19     the Trial Chamber adopts the view that those documents are authentic, I

20     did not want to miss this opportunity to question this witness about what

21     he knew about this intercept, or related to this intercept.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic, it is not only what the Chamber

24     will say about it.  It -- the issue is what your position is.

25             You are asking the witness questions about it.  Apparently you do

Page 4050

 1     not want to tender it.  You said you want it to be MFI'd.  We'll consider

 2     it during the break, but, of course, the Chamber would like -- if you use

 3     the document, that you take a clear position.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  May I just be heard briefly on that, Your Honour?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Bolton.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  I agree with the observation that Your Honour made

 7     that you can't basically have your cake and eat it too.  Either this is

 8     General Mladic speaking and your acknowledging General Mladic is speaking

 9     and therefore you're asking for comments on what he said, or else there's

10     no relevance to the questions that are posed.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, of course, there is another matter; that

12     is, that if this witness would be have been called, well, let's say, in

13     half a year for now and if matters on authenticity would have been

14     settled then, of course, the dilemma would not exist any further for the

15     Defence.

16             So I'd like -- I prefer to have it MFI'd at this moment, not

17     necessarily for the reason Mr. Petrusic gave but for the Chamber to

18     consider whether we accept or not this way of proceeding.

19             Madam Registrar, the number would be ... ?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 27602 will be D75, marked

21     for identification.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             You may proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   General, sir, finally, did you know that there were military

Page 4051

 1     targets in Pofalici?

 2        A.   I don't know where Pofalici is.

 3        Q.   General, sir, I have no further questions.

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] We are through with our

 5     cross-examination.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

 7             Any need to re-examine the witness, Ms. Bolton?

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Very briefly, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MS. BOLTON:  If we could have D75 MFI back on the screen, please.

11     Thank you.

12                           Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:

13        Q.   General Wilson, do you have -- have you ever heard of

14     Obrad Popadic before seeing this intercept today?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Any idea who that individual was or what role he may have played

17     in the armed forces?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Do you know if he a member of the JNA or the VRS or some other

20     armed force?

21        A.   I don't know this individual at all.

22        Q.   And I take it you had no knowledge of this conversation before

23     coming to court today?

24        A.   I may have seen this intercept in the last few days, but ...

25        Q.   So no personal knowledge of it prior to that?

Page 4052

 1        A.   No personal knowledge.

 2        Q.   And so the answers given to counsel today, are they based on any

 3     knowledge or just your best guesses or speculation?

 4        A.   My interpretation.  Best guesses.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And if we could -- if I could refresh your memory as to

 6     some conversation you had with counsel yesterday.  One of the areas that

 7     were asked questions about was the media.  And this appears at page, for

 8     my friend's assistance, 4007 to 4008 of the transcript when my friend put

 9     to you this question:

10             "General, sir, can you agree with me that there were a lot of

11     sources in the media, a lot of information leaked -- was leaked through

12     the media to shape the public opinion, and the sources for that

13     information was rather unreliable, or rather, they were biased."

14             And you responded:

15             "Information, manipulation of information is one of the weapons

16     of war.  Both during the war in Bosnia and virtually every other

17     conflict.  The accuracy of media reports is often questionable and needs

18     to be verified by reliable means before accepting it as fact, and this is

19     what we attempted to do."

20             General Wilson, are you saying that there were -- every media

21     report from every agency during the Bosnian war was incorrect, or would

22     you need to look at the individual articles or reports to comment on

23     their accuracy?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton is that not perfectly clear from the

25     answer.  The question was phrased in a way which, of course, would lead

Page 4053

 1     to no successful -- I mean, would lead to nothing which would assist the

 2     Chamber.  Generally to say that leaked information would not be reliable,

 3     of course, the witness then perfectly said is that:  What you need to do

 4     is to check on every single occasion, whether it's reliable or not by

 5     verifying it.  And he certainly did not even hint at what you now present

 6     as a possible way of understanding his answer.  I think his answer was so

 7     clear that ...

 8             MS. BOLTON:  All right.  I'll move on, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   My last area, sir, is with respect to some questions you were

10     asked about a special incident report from the 30th of May, 1992, which

11     was P336.  That was a report about firing on UNPROFOR vehicles on the

12     30th of May, 1992, when you were going to Lukavica barracks to meet with

13     General Mladic.  Do you recall that document, sir?

14        A.   I do.

15             MS. BOLTON:  And could we have P332 on the screen, please.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  While waiting for that --

17             Mr. Wilson, when I would have understood -- when I would have

18     misunderstood your answer I just said was so obvious, I take it that you

19     would have immediately intervened and said, No, you have totally

20     misunderstood my answer.  But I thought it was very clear.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             MS. BOLTON:

23        Q.   You see before you, sir, that this is the document we've

24     discussed earlier.  The record of your meeting on the 30th of May, 1992,

25     with General Mladic.  And I wonder if we could please turn to page 2 in

Page 4054

 1     both the English and the B/C/S, and we're going to look at paragraph 8.

 2             So in answer to questions yesterday asked by my friend, you gave

 3     the following response to the question:

 4             "Was fire ever opened at you or at the UNPROFOR vehicles by the

 5     members of the VRS that controlled that road?"

 6             And you said:

 7             "We were fired on many occasions along that route, including one

 8     occasion my vehicle was hit or two vehicles we were travelling in,

 9     convoy.  We were hit 32 times and lost six of the eight tires in our

10     vehicle.  Inevitably, when we raised this with the two parties they would

11     say it was the other party or we have no control of that area.  We never

12     successfully identified who was responsible for these attacks."

13             Paragraph 8 of the document in front of you indicates:

14             "General Mladic apologised for the firing on UN vehicles passing

15     Marsal Tito barracks (special incident reports refers) and blames this on

16     the fact that the people in the barracks had become irresponsible because

17     of the firing they had been subjected to recently?"

18             With respect to that occasion, were you able to get an admission

19     from one of the parties as to who had been responsible for the firing?

20        A.   I think it's outlined in paragraph 8 there.  General Mladic

21     accepts the responsibility that it was some irresponsible individual from

22     the JNA.  And in regard to your question yesterday, I -- I thought the

23     question was had I been fired upon on my journey of that day from the PTT

24     to the meeting with General Mladic, and I said I couldn't recall about

25     whether I was fired upon for that particular journey.  I think we are --

Page 4055

 1     if I misinterpreted your question yesterday, then so be it.  But perhaps

 2     right now we're talking about two different incidents.

 3        Q.   Yes.  I think I have confused you.  Perhaps we need to look at

 4     the special incident report, which is P336.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Pardon me, I've got the wrong exhibit number.

 6     Sorry, it's P -- P341, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   So this is an incident that occurred on the 30th of May, 1992,

 8     when you were travelling to Lukavica, not the incident we discussed

 9     previously of the 25th of May, 1992.

10        A.   Well, now that I've seen this report and I've refreshed my

11     memory, yes, we were fired upon on that journey.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  I have no further questions in

14     re-examination, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Bolton.

16             The Chamber has no further questions for you either.

17             Mr. Petrusic, have the questions in re-examination triggered any

18     need for further questions?

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Wilson, this then concludes your testimony

21     before this Court.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to

22     The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to you

23     by the -- either by the parties or by the Bench, and I wish you a safe

24     return home again.

25             You may follow the usher.

Page 4056

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber considered how we would proceed.  We

 4     have a few procedural matters, not much.  It's about the pace of filing

 5     of 92 bis.  It may also be an oral decision on a motion.  And the Defence

 6     motion to -- in large, time to respond to the sixth 92 bis motion.  These

 7     are relatively minor matters.  The Chamber would like to know whether the

 8     parties have anything they would like to raise.  Not to do it now,

 9     just ...

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have two very brief matters which I

11     think could be appropriately raised in Mr. Mladic's absence.  It's just

12     willing to provide information to the Chamber.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's exactly why I am taking at this moment an

14     inventory of what we have to do, so that Mr. Mladic, who I do understand

15     is present on the premises, knows if he decides that he wants to return

16     to court which he is free to do that he knows at least what the subject

17     matter will be after the break, so if you could just indicate what

18     approximately it is you would raise.

19             MR. GROOME:  It's just to provide information with respect to two

20     exhibits that we undertook to provide the Chamber.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then has the Defence any matter it would like

22     to raise this morning?

23             Mr. Stojanovic.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Not at this time, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then we will ...

Page 4057

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a short break, that is a break of

 3     15 minutes.  Therefore, we'll resume at 10.25.  And, as matters stand

 4     now, it is very likely that we would conclude this hearing at quarter to

 5     11.00, approximately.  My guess would be that we would need some

 6     20 minutes.  We resume at 25 minutes past 10.00.

 7                            --- Break taken at 10.10 a.m.

 8                           [The accused entered court]

 9                           --- On resuming at 10.28 a.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I establish the presence of the accused in the

11     courtroom.

12             Then we had a few procedural matters.  The first one, Mr. Groome,

13     was about the pace of filing of 92 bis and quater motions as they are

14     completed and then to develop the schedule for the Defence when to

15     respond.

16             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The previous guidance of the Chamber was

18     always two to three weeks apart, but that was the previous guiding.  The

19     Chamber grants your request.  You may file the 92 bis and quater motions

20     once they are ready.  And I think the Defence's position was you would

21     ask for further time, and I think we have received a first request for

22     further time and we will look at that, of course.  With -- we'll most

23     likely grant that so you have always reasonable time, if you are flooded

24     with 92 bis motions that you had adequate time to respond.  We have

25     received the first request and we'll decide on that soon.

Page 4058

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

 3             MR. GROOME:  If it would assist the Defence and the Chamber and

 4     the Prosecution of all -- of being aware of the status of these, the

 5     Prosecution would be happy to undertake including a table that would have

 6     all of the pending 92 bis issues at the end of the witness schedule that

 7     we have been producing every few weeks.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that would be appreciated.  Second, there was

 9     a ...

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If you'd just give us one second to find something.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the Chamber would like to deliver a decision, a

15     decision on the Prosecution's motion to amend its 65 ter witness list by

16     substituting Fatima Pita for Witness RM154, Ekrem Pita, a motion which

17     was filed on 7th of September, 2012.  The Defence has filed a response on

18     the 21st of September, indicating that it does not oppose the motion.

19             The Chamber grants the motion.  The Prosecution may amend its

20     65 ter witness list by substituting Ekrem Pita by Fatima Pita.  The

21     Chamber has considered both that the new witness was an eye-witness to

22     the event, whereas, the old witness was not.  It is in the interest of

23     justice to grant the motion.  Also, the Chamber has considered that the

24     Defence did not oppose the motion.  And that concludes the decision of

25     the Chamber on this matter.

Page 4059

 1             Then the third matter I had on my list is that the Defence asked

 2     to enlarge the time the Defence will have to respond to the Prosecution's

 3     sixth motion to admit evidence, pursuant to Rule 92 bis.  This was filed

 4     on the 11th of October, and the request was 14 more days to respond to

 5     that sixth motion.  Since the deadline for the response is today then the

 6     Chamber wonders whether there's any objection to the motion being

 7     granted.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Not from the Prosecution.  Then the Chamber grants

10     this motion, and the Defence has 14 additional days to respond to it.

11     These were the matters the Chamber had on its list.  Is there any --

12     Mr. Groome, you had two brief matters, you said.

13             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  The first one related to D55, and

14     Your Honours may recall this was a map of the Kozarac and Omarska area,

15     and Your Honour had raised the -- questions about the -- the projection

16     angle of the document, and I undertook to investigate that matter.  We

17     have spoken to our mapping unit, and they inform us that it -- the scale

18     at the bottom would not be a reliable way to judge distances, and -- the

19     Chamber should be cautioned against doing so but that the map would be

20     accurate with respect to the relationship of the different locations but

21     certainly not the scale.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And this was due to the projection angle

23     or ...

24             MR. GROOME:  I don't have that precise information.  I will say,

25     Your Honour, that many of these maps are old and at this stage the

Page 4060

 1     Prosecution does have far more sophisticated technology with determining

 2     distance.  So if any distance at any time becomes of importance or is

 3     deemed important by the Chamber or even the Defence, the Prosecution is

 4     happy to seek to get that information.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If I may add that if you do not make any

 6     projection under a certain angle then you don't even need sophisticated

 7     technology.  You can just look at the map, measure it, and then you have

 8     the answer.  That's the reason why -- and I'm now speaking for myself for

 9     the last ten year I've always insisted on having non-projected maps but

10     maps that someone can use.  Perhaps for the future.

11             Then the second matter.

12             MR. GROOME:  The second matter, Your Honour, relates to D59.

13     And, if you will recall, this was a document that had some handwritten

14     text on the original document that had not been translated.  And the

15     Prosecution undertook to see if it could locate another copy that did not

16     have such handwriting.  We were able to query our collection and found

17     another copy of this document without a handwritten note.  We have sent

18     that to the Defence this morning.  And Ms. Janet Stewart informs me that

19     there is different handwriting on this note.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I believe we -- I maybe spoke too early

22     on this issue.  We have sent a copy of what we have discovered in our

23     collection to the Defence this morning, and we'll discuss it further

24     which is the most appropriate copy to have in evidence.

25             Thank you.

Page 4061

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome, then the Chamber will wait

 2     and see what happens in relation to D59.

 3             Mr. Stojanovic, there was nothing else to ...

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we had an

 5     opportunity to see this today, and we will wait for the official version

 6     to come our way.  We've only had opportunity to see it here in the

 7     courtroom, and then we will respond to that, to that part which was

 8     handwritten and which is clear to me because it is in the language I

 9     speak.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, if the parties would reach any agreement

11     which would be the most appropriate -- which would be the most

12     appropriate copy to be used, then the Chamber would prefer to receive a

13     shared position of the parties.

14             MR. GROOME:  I have no doubt that that will be the case,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then if there's nothing else we adjourn.  But.

17     Mr. Stojanovic, it's only a couple of days ago that the Chamber inquired

18     in some detail on how much time the cross-examination of the present

19     witness would take so as to be able to see whether we could still use any

20     time remaining this Friday.  The indication was then still six hours.

21     Later it became four hours.  And it turns out now out to be even far less

22     than that.

23             Would you, please, if we ask this kind of information be very

24     precise in your analysis on how much time you would need, because time

25     claimed and not used is, under the present circumstances, time lost, and

Page 4062

 1     we would try to avoid that.

 2             If there's no other matter, we have two non-sitting weeks, which

 3     means that we adjourn for the day, and will resume on Monday, the

 4     29th of October, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.42 a.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of

 7                           October, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.