1 Wednesday, 31 October 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 There seem to be no preliminaries. Could the witness be escorted
11 into the courtroom.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any technical problem with the earphones
14 of Mr. Mladic, then ... resolved? Yes. It seems to be resolved.
15 Ms. Bibles.
16 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, the Defence has indicated that the
17 remainder of cross will talk about 45 minutes. I would like to have a
18 discussion with the Chamber and counsel prior to beginning re-examination
19 which actually may shorten re-examination, and I would suggest that if
20 cross-examination takes about 45 minutes that perhaps we could excuse the
21 witness and take that time to deal with that matter.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, seems that you would agree with such
25 way to proceed.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is all right, yes,
2 Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Good morning, Ms. Hanson.
5 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that
7 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
8 beginning of your testimony, that you will speak the truth, the whole
9 truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: DOROTHEA HANSON [Resumed]
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Further, through the VWS, the Chamber was informed
13 that you had forgotten something or left out something in one of your
14 answers yesterday and would like to have an opportunity to complete that
16 You have an opportunity to do so.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. I was asked --
18 Mr. Stojanovic asked me yesterday if I had been given any specific
19 taskings relevant to the Mladic case, and I recalled last night that I
20 had been part of large teams in two taskings that were probably relevant.
21 We do large reviews of large numbers of documents for Rule 68,
22 potentially exculpatory documents, and I was involved in that. And also
23 in the initial review of the Mladic diaries, just -- they put together a
24 lot of people who could read Cyrillic handwriting and we just reviewed to
25 see the dates of the diaries, important meetings, and prioritise for
1 translation. I was -- in both cases I was part of large teams. It was
2 not specific to me, but I recalled those as potentially relevant.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for completing that answer.
4 Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to continue your cross-examination?
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Hanson.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I
8 hope I am ready.
9 Q. If you recall, we finished our yesterday's day's work talking
10 about the composition of the Crisis Staffs and participation of the JNA
11 and VRS in individual staffs. Let's try to wrap up this topic. I will
12 put two simple questions to you to that end.
13 Do we agree that, already on the 22nd of May, 1992, the
14 government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina issued a
15 conclusion suggesting that the Crisis Staffs be abolished because as
16 these statement of reasons states, the defence would be taken over by the
17 army? Is that something that you concluded in your report as well?
18 A. Yes, I base it on the minutes of the government sessions of the
19 21st and the 23rd of May. The 21st of May doesn't actually specify the
20 abolishment. It leave it is blank. But it says as the army is taking
21 over defence, and on the 23rd they say they have decided to abolished
22 Crisis Staffs. And the day after that, the 24th of May, is when Plavsic
23 issues the instructions on Presidencies. So I think -- I see a logical
24 progression there.
25 Q. Can you agree - and this is something that you spoke of in your
1 report - that the then-minister of defence in the government of
2 Republika Srpska on 7th of July in an interview for "Glas" magazine also
3 suggested that the Crisis Staffs be abolished; is that right?
4 A. Yes. It is quite a leap from the 23rd of May to the 7th of July,
5 but, yes, I certainly cite that in my report.
6 Q. Let me finish. In your research, did you come across information
7 as to whether any of the municipalities in Republika Srpska following
8 that date - that's to say, post-7 July 1992 - had operational
9 Crisis Staffs still or were they renamed differently, as organs of
11 A. In some municipalities, they had changed the names from
12 Crisis Staff to War Presidency earlier in June. I believe there are some
13 in July as well. I believe Kotor Varos, but I would have to check the
14 exact dates. But I would note that none of them see -- make a
15 distinction in their operations between being a Crisis Staff and being a
16 War Presidency. They simply regard it as a formal change of name. I
17 know in Kotor Varos they meet in the morning as a Crisis Staff and meet
18 again the same people in the afternoon as a War Presidency.
19 There are certainly some municipalities still calling a
20 Crisis Staff after the 7th of July, but I would have to look more
21 carefully to recall just which ones.
22 Q. But can we agree that the relationship between the Crisis Staffs
23 and the VRS, with regard to command and control over the army, grew --
24 growingly different day by day, steadily different, and that it was the
25 VRS that took over the direction of the war?
1 A. Absolutely. That is what I say in my report, yes.
2 Q. Can we agree that the Crisis Staffs, War Commissions, or
3 War Presidencies, or provisional interim governments, as stated in
4 Zvornik, practically took over the civilian powers of authority. Am I
6 A. What I say in my report is in the beginning, in the early days,
7 say, in April, they had both powers, or at least a strong role in
8 organising the defence and co-ordinating. They lose that role
9 increasingly as the VRS is formed and takes on that role. But they were
10 certainly, all the time, they were the civilian powers of authority.
11 Q. Thank you. Let me move onto a topic which seems to have slipped
12 away in your report, which is the formation of the Crisis Staffs at the
13 level of autonomous regions or districts, as they were called in certain
15 Were you dealing with the powers and the remit of authority of
16 the Crisis Staffs at the level of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina?
17 A. As I note in my report, there's such an imbalance in the material
18 available. There is so much from the ARK level -- from the ARK
19 Crisis Staff and so little from the other Serbian Autonomous Regions that
20 I'm very reluctant to draw any conclusions. I simply don't know enough.
21 What I do see shows that they did act as an intermediary level.
22 They did assert authority over the municipal Crisis Staffs, and the
23 municipal Crisis Staffs, in turn, cited the Regional Staffs as an
24 authority. But with so much on the ARK and so little on the other
25 regions, I was reluctant to go into any detail.
1 Q. Am I right in saying then that you in your expert report did not
2 address the powers and relations between local Crisis Staffs and the
3 autonomous region, or Serb Autonomous Districts as they were called,
4 elsewhere in Republika Srpska. Am I right in concluding that?
5 A. I mention them only briefly because, as I note, I don't draw
6 conclusions. I do mention them, but I don't have enough material to go
7 into it in detail.
8 Q. Then I have only one follow-up question where I'd like you to
9 help us with your expertise in that area.
10 The Crisis Staffs at the level of the Autonomous Region of the
11 Krajina, or Autonomous District of Semberija, Majevica, Herzegovina and
12 similar, were they superior to and were there conclusion binding on the
13 municipal staffs? I'm asking you for the period before the 31st of May;
14 that is, before the establishment of the commissions.
15 A. There is much evidence to that effect, yes, for the ARK. For the
16 other Autonomous Districts there is less, but it is consistent with a
17 hierarchical relationship of republic, then regional, then municipal.
18 But there is so little on the others I'd have to look pretty hard to find
19 the few examples from, I believe, Birac I have a few. But definitely yes
20 for ARK.
21 Q. Let us try and place it in a specific situation.
22 You mentioned Birac and you had ample documentation regarding the
23 Bratunac Crisis Staff, so you dealt with that.
24 This is my question: After the commissions were established -
25 that's to say, after the 31st of May, 1992 - who were the Crisis Staffs
1 answerable to under that hierarchy, the Crisis Staff of the SAO Birac,
2 or, if there was one, and we are not sure whether there was one, a
3 Crisis Staff at the level of the SDS or was it the SDS Main Board, or
4 were they answerable to the commissioner appointed pursuant to the
5 decision establishing War Presidencies; in other words, within whose
6 competence did the local Crisis Staffs fall?
7 A. The Normative documents from the 26th of April, the 24th of May,
8 and the 31st of May all make it clear that Crisis Staffs and
9 War Presidencies were to operate on the directives of the Presidency, the
10 assembly, the government of Republika Srpska, and the Main Staff of the
11 VRS. That would be their ultimate authority.
12 I am certainly not stating that after the 31st of May there was a
13 Crisis Staff at the level of the SDS or the Main Board. The SDS was
14 frozen as a party. There was no more party work at the time. Its
15 leadership had been replaced by that of Presidency. These are now state
16 organs and they are responsible to the highest state levels.
17 As for the Crisis Staff of SAO Birac, I have no documents from
18 them after the 31st of May and indeed we know that the regional
19 authorities were abolished within a few months at the end of the summer
20 of 1992. And I have no reason from the documents I have to think that
21 there was a robust and activity SAO Birac Crisis Staff over the summer of
22 1992. But perhaps there are documents that were simply never brought to
23 the OTP to show otherwise.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at at document in
1 e-court now. It's 65 ter 28394.
2 Your Honours, while we're waiting for the document to appear, let
3 me say that it's one page from the conclusions published in the Official
4 Gazette relative to the conclusions from the meetings of the Crisis Staff
5 of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina for the 15th, 18th and 20th of
6 May, 1992.
7 Q. Ms. Hanson, can we look at the conclusion dated the
8 18th of May, 1992, specifically item 5, which is part of the conclusions
9 of the ARK Crisis Staff, and which reads:
10 "Members of other nationalities living in these areas have to
11 defend their centuries' old homesteads under the banner of the Serb
12 republic Bosnia and Herzegovina because peace should be of mutual
14 This is my question: In view of your analysis relative to the
15 Crisis Staffs locally which were part of the Autonomous Region of Krajina
16 namely, Sanski Most, Kljuc and Prijedor, and I would say that you dealt
17 with those the most, this conclusion dated 18 May issued by the
18 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina was it binding on these
19 local Crisis Staffs in the part where they are called upon to invite
20 members of other ethnicities to join in the defence effort, those who are
21 in the area?
22 So this is my question simply: In formal terms, was it binding?
23 A. Formally, yes.
24 Q. Then let me ask you this: Appreciating your previous answer
25 about the subordination line --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, would you please not make
2 introductions of eight to ten lines, explaining all kind of things and
3 then say, in other words, and then phrase a question which has hardly
4 anything to do with the speech you delivered before that.
5 Please, questions.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.
7 Q. This is my specific question: Based on your research, would this
8 conclusion issued by the ARK Krajina Crisis Staff reflect the obligations
9 and duties arising from the decisions adopted by the republican level?
10 A. I'm afraid I find your question a bit vague. You're saying would
11 this conclusion of the ARK have come from the policies of the republican
12 level. Is that what you mean?
13 Q. Correct. The question is under the system that you explained --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, please, rephrase your question. And
15 if you say, Does this arise from the decisions adopted by the republican
16 level, then please be more concrete. If you have one specific decision
17 on your mind, say, Is there any relation with that decision or that
18 decision. But you invite the witness, more or less, to explore a wide
19 area and find a relationship between what you hint at but not specify and
20 this paragraph 5 of these conclusions.
21 So please be very concrete.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.
25 Q. Let me go back to the portion dealt with yesterday which relates
1 to the instructions on the formation of the Crisis Staffs dated
2 December 1991.
3 Let me remind you that we spoke yesterday of the Variant A in the
4 first degree, item 11, subparagraph 2, which states in what way the --
5 the units should be replenished with JNA personnel. So this is, in fact,
6 the context of my question.
7 Would this ARK conclusion be in keeping with the positions
8 expressed in these instructions?
9 A. They are parallel in that -- well, no. Actually, the A and B is
10 talking about sending Serbs to the JNA. This ARK conclusion is saying
11 that non-Serbs as well should be recruited into the VRS although I would
12 note also in this context numbers 8 and 9 in those conclusions. Excuse
13 me. So in that respect, they're both about getting -- mobilising people
14 into the armed forces with different intentions. But I just think by --
15 to connect this SDS document of 19 December to the ARK in May 1992 when
16 events had far overtaken A and B is difficult. I don't -- it's hard at
17 this point -- after so much has happened in Bosnia, to -- in those months
18 to connect the two in detail I find difficult.
19 Q. Do you mean to say, then, that interpreting the conclusion by the
20 ARK Crisis Staff that you're interpreting it as not being in keeping with
21 the instructions issued?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- let me try to see whether I understood the
23 answer well and to see whether we can come to a quick answer to the last
25 Do I understand you well that you did not see a direct link
1 between this paragraph 5 and what was stated in the 19th of December,
2 which means no a positive link but also that you do not say it's not in
3 keeping with or -- but that the link is just -- it's so difficult to
4 establish a direct link that you can't either positively or negatively
5 say something about it too.
6 THE WITNESS: Exactly, sir. As far as I know, I see no
7 references in the ARK Crisis Staff documents to Variant A and B to the
8 19 December instructions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Not only you do not see any reference but do you see
10 any link in substance.
11 THE WITNESS: No, other than that their Crisis Staffs are
12 organising the defence the Serbian people.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will be done with
16 this document with the following question:
17 Q. Is this position of the Autonomous Region of Krajina on
18 mobilisation which was to include other ethnicities in the defence of the
19 peace, was that, in your view, also the position of the republican organs
20 at the time? Yes or no.
21 A. The -- it was the formal position, I believe.
22 Q. Very well. Now could you comment, please, Article 9 or
23 conclusion number 9 of this same document, which reads, and this was a
24 conclusion of the Crisis Staff of the AR, that:
25 "Reciprocity should be applied in the moving of the population in
1 the whole territory of the Serb republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
2 How would you comment this, this position on reciprocity?
3 A. This conclusion shows that the ARK sees the organisation of the
4 moving out of the population as one of its tasks. They want to apply the
5 principle of reciprocity which I take to mean as many Serbs move into the
6 RS, so many non-Serbs should move out, so it seems to be preparing for
7 the moving out of the non-Serb population. It is not saying we should do
8 everything we can to keep the non-Serbs in the RS.
9 Q. Then, in the context of your last reply, would you please take
10 note of the conclusion of the Crisis Staff of May 20th, 1992,
11 paragraph 1.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honour, let me just
13 say that I was unable to find a translation of this conclusion, and I
14 only have the translation of the conclusion of 18th May, and because this
15 is only one sentence, I'll just read it out to you.
16 Q. So, Ms. Hanson, it says in paragraph 1 of this conclusion that
17 there is absolutely no reason for the population to move out from the
18 Autonomous Region of Krajina, no matter what ethnicity.
19 Now could we agree that this is in stark contrast with what you
20 have just said a few moments ago?
21 A. I would say it's in contrast with the conclusion 9 up the page.
22 In a -- on the 18th of May, they are saying, We should move out as many
23 Muslims as Serbs come in. The next time they say, There is no reason for
24 anyone to move out. So those two are in contradiction.
25 Q. Can the Autonomous Region prevent someone who feels insecure and
1 refuses to accept mobilisation and take part in the war and wish to move
2 out, can they prevent them from it -- from doing so?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Prevent them from doing what, Mr. Stojanovic? From
4 moving out, or from being fearful, or ...
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Well, let me ask you then: Can they prevent them from taking
7 this decision to move out for the reasons mentioned above?
8 A. Yes, if they wanted to they could arrest people and put them in
9 camps but it's -- or forcibly mobilisation them.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, can I just understand your
11 question. I don't know -- it is translated: Can they prevent them from
12 taking this decision to move out.
13 Now nobody can prevent anybody from taking a decision. I can
14 take my decision now and keep it to myself and we'll never know that I've
15 decided what I've decided.
16 What actually do you want to ask the witness?
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps it is an
18 interpretation issue. I will repeat my question.
19 Q. Would it be possible to prevent such individuals who, for the
20 reasons that I've already mentioned, have decided to leave the area where
21 they had lived previously and to prevent them from moving freely? Would
22 that be possible as all?
23 A. Yes. As far as I know, if you have armed forces, you can control
24 the movement of population pretty well. You could also prevent them by
25 reassuring them that they are safe and taking measures to demonstrate
1 their security. Those would be two ways to prevent the movement.
2 Q. In your report, you use documents, and I will talk about Zvornik
3 specifically, which mention the influx of a large number of Serb refugees
4 into Zvornik.
5 Now, in your report and during your research, did you establish
6 that a large number of Serb refugees had actually come to Podrinje?
7 A. It may -- those documents that I cite may mention that in
8 addition to the elements of the document that I cite, but I do not recall
9 at the moment any documents which mention it. I'm not saying they don't.
10 It's just not what I was looking at in those documents.
11 Q. Well, then, let me ask you this: Did you come across such
12 evidence, and did you assess such documents as exculpatory?
13 A. I am not at the moment aware of such documents, and I don't --
14 I'd have to see such a document. But on its own, I don't see it as
15 exculpatory regarding crimes against non-Serbs in Zvornik.
16 Q. Thank you. Could we now please pull up in e-court 65 ter 28413.
17 That's a document that you've used, Ms. Hanson, for your report but in a
18 different context. I would like to refer you to the textual portion of
19 this document, both in B/C/S and in English.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page,
21 please, in both versions.
22 Your Honour, there are three documents here that are connected
23 causily. This is a request from Drinatrans, a transport company,
24 addressed to the interim government of the Serb republic -- Serb
25 municipality of Zvornik. They want -- they're requesting payment. This
1 is evidence that it has been paid. And now could we see page 3 of the
2 document which will show us what it was that the interim government made
3 this payment for.
4 Q. Now, here we can see - could we have the English, please, too? -
5 in this document that you have analysed, Ms. Hanson, we can see that this
6 transport company, Drinatrans, on the 4th of July, 1992, transported
7 along the route mentioned there refugees who were to settle there. And
8 then, again, we see the same thing happened on the 15th of July, the same
9 route, the settlement of refugees.
10 Can you see that?
11 A. I agree it says settlement, "naseljavanje," but they're taking
12 them from Kozluk to the border with Serbia to the bridge on the Drina.
13 And my understanding is Kozluk was a largely Muslim settlement and my
14 interpretation of these documents is removing Muslims from Kozluk and
15 taking them to Gornji Sepak, and I believe their fate was to wind up in
16 northern Serbia on the borders of Hungary.
17 Q. And I put to you, Ms. Hanson, that you are completely mistaken,
18 and I put it to you that this is not true and this is why: It is stated
19 clearly here that this transport is along the Zvornik-Kozluk-Gornji Sepak
20 route, and Gornji Sepak would be the end destination, and this is not a
21 place on the border. It is not a town that would imply moving out of
22 people --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I am putting a
25 question and I will --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you differ with the witness just tell her you
2 differ with her, but now you are telling us what your interpretation is
3 which is testimony.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will then finish my question.
5 Q. Would I be correct if I said that Gornji Sepak was not where you
6 implied that it was and what you were referring to had already been dealt
7 with? Yes or no?
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's a double question.
9 Let's start with the first one. Apparently Mr. Stojanovic
10 challenges that Gornji Sepak is at or close to the border. Is
11 that [Overlapping speakers] ...
12 THE WITNESS: I would have to see a map, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So that answer is there.
14 If there's any way that the parties could agree where
15 Gornji Sepak is, unless there are five or six, but that might resolve
16 certain matters.
17 Now the second part of your question, Mr. Stojanovic, which was,
18 and I have to re-read it, and what you were referring to had already been
19 dealt with.
20 What -- it's not entirely clear to me what that is. But if the
21 witness understands this question, she's invited to answer it.
22 THE WITNESS: I take him there to be referring to the cleansing
23 of Kozluk, the moving out of the Muslim population of Kozluk. And I
24 believe a large part of the action had already taken place, but it's
25 never as simple as one day the story is over. I would have to review
1 events. But I stand by my assertion that Kozluk was a largely Muslim
2 settlement and non-Serbs removed from Kozluk were crossed into Serbia and
3 wound up, many of them, near the border with Hungary. The exact timing,
4 no, I do not recall.
5 If that had already occurred, then one could read the word,
6 "naseljavanje," the settlement, as bring other refugees into Kozluk.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. This suffices,
8 Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honours, and I believe ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Those were all the questions
11 that I had for this witness, Your Honours. I would to thank the witness.
12 And if you allow me, I would like to tender this document into evidence,
13 because we intend to deal with it further. This is document 28413,
14 65 ter, and I would also like to tender the Crisis Staff document that I
15 have used, the AP Krajina Crisis Staff, document number 28394.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, first of all, Mr. Stojanovic, I'd like
17 to ask you, you referred to the conclusions of the 20th of May, 1992, for
18 which you had no translation. You read a line from it. Could you please
19 identify the document by its 65 ter number, if it has a 65 ter number?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. As I
21 mentioned earlier, that's one single document, and it is document
22 65 ter 28394. That includes the document from which the line was read
23 out. That document includes the conclusions both of the 18th and the
24 20th of May.
25 JUDGE ORIE: But part of it not translated, if I understand you
2 Could we have 28394 on the screen.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, document 28314 was admitted as
4 Exhibit P57, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It was 314 -- or 394; I apologise, if I pronounced
6 not clearly.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you can see the
8 document now in the B/C/S version. And on the following page of the
9 B/C/S version, you can see that these are conclusions of 18 September.
10 They go on to the following page. And then at the bottom you can see ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking now at the original. We have -- under
12 number 12 I think we have a decision dated the 18th of May, as we can see
13 on the second page of this document. We have it now.
14 And then we have the next document on this same second page of
15 65 ter 28394 is a decision or is at least a document dated the
16 20th of May. What we also see is that that document is not translated.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Do we understand that you read this part of the
19 document, the B/C/S version --
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
21 It's from that same document, document 28394.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And then -- so you read paragraph 1 in Cyrillic.
23 Could you please slowly read that one again so that we now at
24 least can follow what you are -- could you read it in your own language.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I did not hear
1 the interpretation and I was unable to follow you. But I will try to
2 answer. This same number, the same 65 ter number, is B/C/S 28394, the
3 conclusion dated 18th May and the 20th of May.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Or ... yes.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, you were asked by the
6 Presiding Judge to read that portion again into the transcript in your
7 language. The paragraph 1 of the non-translated document so that we have
8 a clear reference.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank for that. I will read out
10 the conclusion of the Autonomous Region of Krajina dated the 20th of May,
11 1992, published in the Official Gazette, and paragraph 1 reads as
13 "There are no reasons whatsoever for the population of any
14 ethnicity to move out from the area of the Autonomous Region of Krajina."
15 JUDGE ORIE: What now happens again is that we're relying on
16 interpreters for translation which is not what we're supposed to do. It's
17 on the record. I think it is clear who is also going to take care of
18 that also. Number 13 in this document of which we just read - that is
19 the 20th of May decision or conclusion - that it will be translated.
20 Ms. Bibles, are you -- you have selected apparently a portion of
21 this document when it was translated. Could you take care that the whole
22 of the document, all the text included in it, will be translated.
23 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And then we need the new translation to be uploaded.
25 The original is complete already. 28394 will be marked for -- no, is in
1 evidence at -- not yet, no. It is not yet in evidence. It will be
2 marked for identification, Madam Registrar, this document containing both
3 conclusions of the 18th of May and of the 20th of May receives number ...
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28394 receives number D81, MFI'd,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It's MFI'd. And once the full translation is there,
7 we'll decide on admission.
8 Mr. Stojanovic, there was another matter remaining from
9 yesterday, which was 65 ter 6408. That was a document that was used but
10 was not sought to be admitted, and it contains a list of members of the
11 Crisis Staff of Sanski Most, including, for example, Mr. Basara and the
12 other one, Mr. --
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: Anicic.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Anicic, yes. Do you want to tender
15 that [Overlapping speakers] ... if the Chamber would -- if the Chamber
16 would invite you to tender it, would you then do it so as not to make it
17 a Chamber exhibit?
18 Ms. Bibles.
19 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, this actually highlights one of the
20 issues we wanted to raise regarding the guidance with respect to experts
21 and exhibits. It's a technical matter. If an exhibit has been cited in
22 an expert report, we stand behind tendering all of those documents, and
23 the fact -- simply the fact that it is mentioned in expert report will
24 advise the Chamber means we would tender it, if not for the Chamber's
25 guidance perhaps.
1 So conceptually all of these exhibits are actually Prosecution
2 exhibits; however, given the guidance we're not tendering them
3 affirmatively, and we're recognising the process that they're becoming
4 admitted throughout cross-examinations and throughout the testimony of
5 the experts.
6 As a result, what we're seeing with Ms. Hanson is that many
7 exhibits that are actually Prosecution exhibits are coming in now with D
8 numbers or putting the Chamber in the position of having to make it a
9 Chamber exhibit.
10 What we would recommend or what we would suggest to the Court is
11 that any exhibit that has been mentioned in a Prosecution expert report
12 continue to be maintained or -- certainly we want all of those exhibits
13 in, but that we go ahead and give them a P number regardless of who
14 brings the exhibit in so that we don't have confusion down the road about
15 how what what were originally Prosecution exhibits came before the
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'll consider that. But let's first -- I do see
18 your point. Most important and that may be relevant for the Defence to
19 know, that if you refer to documents which are underlying documents for
20 an expert report that, as the Chamber has suggested a couple of times now
21 already, that if questions are put to a witness in relation to those
22 reports or to an expert witness that those specific documents which have
23 gained the attention of the parties and of the Chamber should be tendered
24 as exhibits.
25 Now whether that should be D exhibits or P exhibits, we'll
1 further consider that, although for the Chamber, exhibits are exhibits,
2 whoever has presented them.
3 So, therefore, Mr. Stojanovic, 65 ter 6408, you said there was no
4 need for you to tender it. But if the Chamber would invite you to tender
5 it, would you do it?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly. Yes, I would,
7 Your Honour. I would be prepared to do so.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. And if the Prosecution would prefer to
9 make them P exhibits, would you mind?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I wouldn't mind. On the
11 contrary, I accept that. I accept that with pleasure because that
12 document serves -- well, it's really an exception.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it was primarily presented by the Prosecution
14 as underlying material for the -- for the evidence of this witness.
15 Madam Registrar, 65 ter 6408 would receive what P number?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Number P404, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And P404 is admitted into evidence.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: The next one on my list is 65 ter 28413. It's a bit
20 of a similar story, that it was originally presented as underlying
21 material for Ms. Hanson's report. The Defence has addressed the
23 Mr. Stojanovic, would you mind if it would be admitted into
24 evidence as a P Exhibit?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I wouldn't
1 mind. But if the Prosecution does not seek to do this, then I would be
2 prepared to have it as a D document.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Ms. Hanson [sic], I understood from your previous observations
5 that the Prosecution -- any document underlying an expert report
6 addressed -- addressed by the Defence that you'd like to have it in
8 MS. BIBLES: That's accurate, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Bibles, I should have said.
10 Then, Madam Registrar, 65 ter 28413.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P405, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
13 I'll further discussion with my colleagues whether the way of
14 introducing these documents into evidence, that is, presented as
15 underlying material but not tendered as documents themselves, then
16 addressed by the Defence that that would trigger them to be tendered by
17 the Prosecution, specifically that document in evidence. If there's any
18 document not underlying the report, then they would still become
19 D exhibits if the witness is questioned -- examined on other documents.
20 We'll consider during the break whether what I develop more or
21 less as a system whether that -- whether that obtains the agreement of my
23 Then, first of all, Ms. Hanson, we are at a break. We'll start
24 with re-examination after the break. Could you please escort -- could
25 the please follow the usher.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, you wanted to raise a matter. Have we
3 dealt with it? Was it more or less the matter we discussed over the last
4 five to seven minutes?
5 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, that was the first issue.
6 The second issue may be a means by which we can narrow the time
7 required for re-examination, and what I would like to do after the break
8 would be appropriate -- would be to outline those areas where the Defence
9 has challenged Ms. Hanson's opinion where she has addressed that, but we
10 simply need to introduce those documents which -- many of which she has
11 referred to in her testimony already. Where we don't need additional
12 testimony from her, I would like to address those areas with the Chamber,
13 and if we can admit those -- or if we can tender those documents in
14 advance of her testimony, that would reduce the amount of time required
15 to go through those documents or to address them with her on the stand.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So what you propose is that documents addressed
17 during cross-examination which are underlying the report of Ms. Hanson,
18 and where you have no further questions but where you consider it
19 relevant for us to look at those documents, that you list them --
20 MS. BIBLES: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- that they are admitted and that no further
22 questions are asked about them.
23 Now, have you given a list of the documents that you would like
24 to deal with in this way to the Defence?
25 MS. BIBLES: I have not had a chance to do that, Your Honour. I
1 have just added to the list. I can do that certainly over the break.
2 JUDGE ORIE: How long is that list, approximately?
3 MS. BIBLES: I have four categories. My math skills in the
4 courtroom seem to fail me, so I don't want to tender a number but I would
5 say it's less than 50.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Less than 50. And they have all been addressed or
7 has the subject matter been addressed?
8 MS. BIBLES: Ms. Hanson's opinion with respect to these
9 particular areas have been challenged, and she has referred in her
10 testimony to many of these documents. For many of these we simply want
11 to go ahead and tender them.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could you also carefully look at your list
13 whether there really needs to be 50 or whether there are some core
14 documents which would do. The mere fact that something is challenged in
15 itself and, of course, also depends on how thoroughly that's done, and
16 whether Ms. Hanson has answered questions in such a way that you would
17 say that even without these underlying documents, the evidence is clear
18 and remains clear.
19 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I've actually just counted, and I
20 unless I have miscounted, I believe there's 18 documents.
21 JUDGE ORIE: 18 documents. That is already a redaction of more
22 than 60 per cent.
23 We'll take a break. We'll resume at five minutes to 11.00, then
24 we will let you know whether we can proceed the way you suggest.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I would like first to address the parties and give
3 some guidance.
4 While -- I'll not give guidance but I'll tell you what the
5 Chamber is inclined to do and then we'll hear from the Defence because
6 we're heard from the Prosecution their position, but we'll then hear from
7 the Defence whether there's any objection to that.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is inclined to give the following
10 guidance that, as a rule, underlying documents to expert reports used in
11 cross-examination, as a rule, should be tendered but should be tendered
12 as a document of the party that called the expert because it's the
13 underlying material in this case for the Prosecution expert report and,
14 therefore, it triggers an exception to the bar, the bar to tender all of
15 the underlying documents, which we would try to avoid.
16 So, in this case, dealt with by the Defence. Defence will tender
17 it but it will receive a P number.
18 Then, as far as challenges are concerned without the documents
19 specifically used, the Prosecution should have a possibility then to
20 tender documents directly related to the subject matter challenged by the
22 Now what we would like to hear then from the Prosecution is,
23 first, a specification area of the area challenged, what's the subject
24 matter to which the challenge relates, but very briefly in one or two
25 words, and then that the Prosecution lists the relevant documents it
1 would tender in that context.
2 Now, to the extend if we have already lengthy reports and if
3 cross-examination takes a longer time, then if it would be prepared in
4 writing, that would of course even be better, but if not, for example,
5 for the the 18 documents, just specify the areas - I understand four
6 areas - list the specific documents the Prosecution would like to tender.
7 That is what the Chamber suggests as a way to proceed where we
8 have invited the parties not to tender all the underlying documents.
9 Mr. Stojanovic, any objections to this way of proceeding?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber gives guidance to the parties that
12 we should proceed as I just explained to you.
13 Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps just to add that, of course, the Chamber
16 always expects the Prosecution to be very selective in what is really
17 needed and what is perhaps related, but not the core of the issue.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, are you ready to re-examine the witness?
20 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MS. BIBLES: Actually I will lead off with the documents. The
23 Defence was agreeable to meeting over the break. We have been able to
24 agree to, I believe, it's three of the categories. And if I could, I
25 would lead off with those.
1 With respect to the December instructions which was the subject
2 of a great deal of cross-examination and even questioning by the
3 Trial Chamber at the end of yesterday and the subsequent instructions
4 leading up to the 31st of May, we would tender 65 ter 02349.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we deal immediately with them.
6 Madam Registrar, 02349.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P405, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: 405 is admitted into evidence.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: 405 was already assigned.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 406, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. P406 is admitted into evidence.
12 MS. BIBLES: Should I proceed, Your Honour?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, next one.
14 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 02351.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Receives, Madam Registrar, number ...
16 THE REGISTRAR: Number P407, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
18 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 03010.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Receives number ...
20 THE REGISTRAR: P408, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
22 Next one.
23 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 02487.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Receives number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: P409, Your Honours ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
2 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 02488.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Receives number ...
4 THE REGISTRAR: P410, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P410 is admitted.
6 MS. BIBLES: With respect to the area of War Presidencies in
7 existence prior to June of 1992, 65 ter 06906.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P411, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P411 is admitted.
11 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 03235.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P412, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
15 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 03415.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: P413, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
19 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 08332.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P414, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
23 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honours, Mr. Stojanovic asked for some
24 additional time to evaluate the remaining documents which address the
25 challenge and the issue of Crisis Staff controlling the movements of
1 non-Serb populations. The remainder of these documents, what I would
2 suggest is that we file a very brief bar table motion which would allow
3 the Defence time to respond to those and perhaps we could resolve that
4 issue quickly.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MS. BIBLES: And that's nine documents, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll not decide on them yet, but could you give us
9 an indication as what numbers you would then adopt in such a bar table
11 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.
12 65 ter 07213.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 05980.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 08028; 65 ter 06408.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bibles, that is already P404.
18 MS. BIBLES: I apologise. You're quite right.
19 65 ter 16029.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. BIBLES: 65 ter 02625; 65 ter 03687; 65 ter 11311; and,
22 finally, 65 ter 03080.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. So we'll receive a bar table motion for
24 those last eight documents. And then, Mr. Stojanovic, we'll receive your
25 response and see whether you'd like to add one or more.
1 Now, preferably, this exercise should be done when the witness is
2 still in court. Now, for Ms. Hanson it may not be a major problem to --
3 if there's any need at any later stage to recall her that -- to do that.
4 But preferably these matters should be settled before the witness is
5 excused, released.
6 Any further questions?
7 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I have no questions on re-examination,
8 and I would finally tender Ms. Hanson's report, P379.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Objections? Any further objections apart from
10 the ones already submitted in writing.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then P379 is admitted into evidence.
13 May I take it, Mr. Stojanovic, that there was no real
14 re-examination, that it is has not triggered any need to further examine
15 the witness?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's what the Rules say, and I
17 will abide by them.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Which means that this -- but I'm just looking at my colleagues.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hanson, this then concludes your testimony in
22 this Court. I would first like to thank you very much for coming to the
23 court. I often add the long way to the court. That might be different
24 in your situation, but we appreciate equally your presence in court and
25 for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties
1 and by the Bench.
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. It is always a pleasure to
3 appear before you. May I ask you just to clarify my position now
4 regarding my relations with the Prosecution team, If there's a
5 possibility I could be recalled?
6 JUDGE ORIE: The only remaining matter is if there is any dispute
7 about the few remaining documents.
8 Mr. Stojanovic, if there would be any problem, would you be able
9 to inform the Chamber not later than by close of business on this Friday?
10 Or are you already in a position to say that under the present
11 circumstances ... yes.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Exceptionally, we are in a very specific
14 situation where the witness is about to leave the court. So, therefore,
15 exceptionally, we allow you to consult with Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic
16 should have his voice at such a level that we couldn't even hear him. He
17 should whisper in your ears, Mr. Stojanovic.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as soon as we
21 receive the filing, we will respond. I don't think it will require any
22 additional time, save to see if the documents are on the 65 ter list.
23 And I believe that the response will be filed before Friday.
24 As for Ms. Hanson's question, I know what her professional duties
25 are, and we do not mind that she continues her communication.
1 The only thing is should there any need arise for me to put
2 additional questions to you concerning the documents that you used for
3 your report, I will perhaps kindly ask you to return so that I may put
4 these questions to you. I thank you for the work you've done and for the
5 answers you've given on my own behalf and on behalf of Mr. Mladic.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This totally congrues with the opinion of the
7 Chamber, that you are excused and therefore are free to -- to communicate
8 with whomever, perhaps preferably not to discuss in detail your testimony
9 but to do your work and to have the normal communications. That's one.
10 Second, if at any point in time, at the request of the Defence,
11 or if there would be any need to recall you, then, of course, once such a
12 message would reach you - and it is not just the Defence, but the Defence
13 of course would first have to ask leave to re-call, we would decide on
14 that - but if that would ever happen then on from that moment, you are
15 instructed to stop, then, to communicate in the usual way with your
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I understand.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just to make clear that the Prosecution
20 will undertake to inform Ms. Hanson about that at the earliest
21 opportunity should that happen, and also to give the undertaking that
22 there is no reason that I can think of that we would need to speak with
23 her about the substance of her report or her testimony, so we will not be
24 doing that in any event.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That is appreciated.
1 Then this concludes your testimony. Safe journey home. It's
2 also perhaps a very short journey, but, nevertheless, please come home
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ORIE: No loud speaking outside permitted consultations.
7 JUDGE ORIE: There are a few matters which have to be dealt with
8 before we start with the next witness. And who will take the -- who will
9 examine the next witness, Mr. Groome?
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next witness will be examined by
11 Ms. Julia Lee, and I take this opportunity to introduce her to the Court.
12 We have arranged it so we only need a few moments to make the switch.
13 And there's no -- I think it's just a matter of seconds, Your Honour, so
14 there is no need to rise if you don't wish to.
15 JUDGE ORIE: There are a few matters which have to be dealt with
16 before we could continue with the next witness.
17 First, the Prosecution has requested leave to reply to the
18 Defence response on the Prosecution's Rule 92 ter motion in relation to
19 the next witness without any protective measures.
20 MS. LEE: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, the next witness, Mr. Kapetanovic,
22 leave is granted.
23 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, it may be helpful if I am excused from
24 the courtroom and let Ms. Lee to step forward.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, if you stay there, there is no room for
1 Ms. Lee.
2 Then we also have to decide on the Prosecution's request to add
3 65 ter 28448. That's a video which the Prosecution would like to use
4 with Witness Kapetanovic. That request is granted. The Chamber has
5 considered the objections raised by the Defence. But the Chamber adds
6 that if a further examination of that video would show -- would shed a
7 new light on that video or on the evidence of the witness, then, of
8 course, the Defence always is in a position to ask for a recall of that
9 witness, of course, upon good cause shown.
10 And, therefore, also, the request for a further delay of the
11 proceedings is denied.
12 Ms. Lee, are there any -- yes. There's one short matter which I
13 would like to raise. And perhaps Mr. Groome you should listen carefully.
14 There is a request for protective measures for Witness RM045.
15 Now that witness was scheduled to appear pretty soon. Before we instruct
16 the Defence to respond on very short notice, we would like to know
17 whether the scheduling of this witness is still as it was before.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not sure if you have had sight of
19 it already but there was a development in this particularly witness.
20 Last evening I sent an e-mail to the Defence and to Chamber's staff so at
21 the moment I would say that we'd suggest that we operate on the basis
22 that the witness would not be available this Friday but in the position
23 originally identified in the 14th week.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that triggered my question, as a matter of
25 fact, because under those circumstances we will not invite the Defence to
1 an expedited response.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: When we do not invite you to an expedited response,
4 Mr. Stojanovic, that doesn't mean that if would you have a response or
5 possibly a short oral response that we would -- we'd like to receive it
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We are drafting the response.
8 My colleague, Branko, deals with the witness, and we will file a written
9 response soon rather than me now giving you a more generalised answer.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's appreciated. I do understand that we have a
11 technical problem with a microphone.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that all systems have to be
15 restarted which takes two minutes. Perhaps during these next two
16 minutes, the next witness could be brought into the courtroom.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 [The witness entered court]
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Kapetanovic. Can you hear me in a
21 language you understand?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Apologies for the technical problem we had before we
25 Mr. Kapetanovic, before you give evidence, the Rules require that
1 you make a solemn declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you
2 by the usher. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration, and
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: MUHAMED KAPETANOVIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kapetanovic. Please be seated.
9 Mr. Kapetanovic, you will first be examined by Ms. Lee. Ms. Lee
10 is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find her to your right.
11 You may proceed, Ms. Lee.
12 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Before I begin my examination, Your Honour, I would like to refer
14 to Your Honours to adjudicated facts related to this witness's testimony.
15 And they are adjudicated facts 2426 to 2428 and 2431 to 2434.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MS. LEE: Great.
18 Examination by Ms. Lee:
19 Q. Good morning. Could you please state your full name and your
20 date of birth for the record.
21 A. Muhamed Kapetanovic, 24 March 1984.
22 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you recall providing a written statement to
23 the Office of the Prosecutor on or about the 12th of February, 2000?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. LEE: Could I ask the Court Officer to please display 65 ter
1 28447 on our screens.
2 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, on the screen before you, can I ask that you
3 look at the first page of the English version of the statement. Do you
4 recognise your signature at the bottom of the page?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 MS. LEE: Now, can I ask that we go to page 4 in e-court of the
7 English version of the -- of the written statement. Sorry, it's the
8 page 4 of the English version of the witness statement. It's page 4 in
9 e-court of the English version.
10 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you recognise your signature on that page?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. And how old were you when you gave this statement?
13 A. Well, 16.
14 Q. And have you had an opportunity to read and review this statement
15 in preparation for your appearance here today?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I understand that you made some corrections and clarifications to
18 the statement after reviewing it for the preparation of your testimony.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And these corrections are in paragraph 1 of both statements.
21 It's e-court number -- e-court page 1 -- 2 for the English version.
22 You were ten years old. It states in paragraph 1 that you were
23 10 years old but it should be nine years old?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when you say that -- in paragraph 2, when you say that you
1 lived in an area across from the TV station, you didn't mean literally
2 across from the TV station.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And in paragraph 4 of the statement, when you say that you went
5 to wooded hills near the front lines with your father, you didn't
6 actually go near the front lines but that your perception, as a child,
7 made you believe that the front lines appeared to be closer than they
8 actually were.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in paragraph 7, you say -- when you say the shrapnel went
11 through, it should be that the shrapnel went through your left hand and
12 your right cheek?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And finally in paragraph 9 of the statement where you mention the
15 other side of the building from a sort of military headquarters, the
16 building was not actually directly behind this headquarter.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And now other than the corrections made to the statement,
19 if you were asked today the same questions that you were asked when
20 you -- when you gave this statement, would you give the same answers and
21 provide the same information, in substance?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm
24 the truthfulness and the accuracy of the statement?
25 A. Yes.
1 MS. LEE: Your Honours, the Prosecution would like to tender this
2 witness's -- this witness statement dated February 12, 2000, with
3 paragraphs hand numbered by the Office of the Prosecutor bearing
4 65 ter 28447 as the next public exhibit.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I received a sign by Mr. Stojanovic that there is no
7 Madam Registrar.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28447 becomes Exhibit P415,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P415 is admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I would now summarise this witness's
14 written evidence for the record.
15 Muhamed Kapetanovic is a witness to scheduled shelling incident
16 G6 which occurred on the 22nd January, 1994. The witness was nine years
17 old and living in a 16-storey apartment building in Sarajevo. On the
18 date of the incident, at around noon, the witness had gone outside to
19 play in the snow with his -- with four of his friends. As they were
20 sledding in front of their apartment building, they heard a sound of a
21 shell exploding nearby and began running towards their building. A shell
22 landed behind them which injured Mr. Kapetanovic and two of his friends.
23 One of Mr. Kapetanovic's friends was decapitated by the shell.
24 The witness was injured on his right cheek, his left leg and left
25 hand as a result of the shelling. He was taken to Dobrinja hospital with
1 his father, where he received first aid care. He was subsequently taken
2 to Kosevo hospital where he spent one and a half months for further
3 treatment. Following this incident, the witness spent two years in Italy
4 receiving further medical treatment as a result of his injures from the
5 shelling, including seven operations.
6 This concludes my summary for the witness's written evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Lee. If you would have further
8 questions, you may proceed.
9 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic in which neighbourhood in Sarajevo did you live
11 in 1994?
12 A. Alipasino Polje.
13 Q. And was the name of your street?
14 A. Cetinska, number 2.
15 Q. And do you currently live in the same neighbourhood?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you still live in the same apartment?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And has the street name changed since January of 1994?
20 A. Yes. It has been renamed into Getes Street.
21 Q. And do you know when this name was changed?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, do you know a street called Clara Zetkin Street?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And where is Clara Zetkin Street located in relation to Cetinska
2 A. In the immediate vicinity.
3 Q. And when you say "in the immediate vicinity," do you mean that
4 there is an intersection or -- can you elaborate on what you meant by
5 "the immediate vicinity?"
6 A. Well, Cetinska Street, the part of the neighbourhood where I
7 live, is in that general area. Clara Zetkin Street and Cetinska street
8 start roughly on the same spot but they diverge into opposite directions.
9 Q. So if you are on Cetinska Street walking towards -- are you also
10 on Clara Zetkin Street?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. So then am I correct to understand that Cetinska Street is
13 a continuation of Clara Zetkin Street? It's the same street that turns
14 into a different name.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And has Clara Zetkin Street also changed its name since
17 January of 1994?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What is it called today?
20 A. Bosanska Street.
21 MS. LEE: Your Honours, for your reference I refer you to page 32
22 of the hard copy of Exhibit 3, and it's page 37 in e-court. And this is
23 a -- sorry, the court binder. It is a map of the neighbourhood
24 containing both Gotijeva [phoen] Street and Bosanka Street that the
25 witness has just mentioned. And because of time constraint, I will not
1 go to that map.
2 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, I'm now going to show you a 360-degree
3 photograph which was taken in 2002, and after showing you this
4 photograph, I will ask you some questions.
5 MS. LEE: And, Your Honour, Ms. Stewart will now bring
6 65 ter 10275B to our screens. It's a quick time video illustrating a
7 360-degree panoramic ...
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MS. LEE:
10 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you recognise the street and its surrounding?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. And the street that we're looking at now, what is the name of the
13 street shown in this photo?
14 A. Cetinska.
15 Q. And if you were standing on the street facing the green shed
16 here, which direction would you be facing?
17 A. The north.
18 Q. Okay. And now, looking at this street and its surrounding, how
19 does it compare to the way you remembered it in January of 1994?
20 A. I don't understand the question.
21 Q. Do -- do the street, the buildings around it, were these
22 buildings already existent in January of 1994?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you see any substantive change in the neighbourhood from
25 what you've seen in this panoramic video compared to the way you had
1 remembered this neighbourhood in January of 1994?
2 A. In the main, everything is the same. Except for the green house,
3 I'm not sure that it was there before the war.
4 Q. Okay. And, now, I'll take you back to January of 1994 during the
5 war. Did you go out to play often with your friends?
6 A. Whenever it was calm, we would go out.
7 Q. And when you say "calm," what do you mean?
8 A. There was no shelling.
9 Q. Now, in paragraph 5 of your statement, you say that you and your
10 friends were sledding on a little slope in front of your building. Now,
11 when you look at this green shed on this picture, can you remember in
12 relation to that building where you were playing with your friends on
13 January 22nd, 1994?
14 A. Yes. I was close to the green house, although I don't remember
15 if the house was there at the time at all.
16 Q. Okay. Do you remember the names of the friends that you were
17 playing with that day?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And can you spell their names for the record.
20 A. Danijel Juranic, Admir Ahmethodzic and Elvir Ahmethodzic.
21 Q. And at paragraph 6 of your statement, when you state that you
22 heard a loud explosion and you started to run, do you remember how many
23 explosions you heard before you began to run?
24 A. One or two. I can't remember exactly.
25 Q. And then what happened?
1 A. We heard an explosions and started running in the direction of
2 our entrance way. One shell landed behind us. Danijel Juranic was hit,
3 whereas Admir, Elvir and I were seriously injured.
4 Q. And when said Danijel was hit, did you see him get hit?
5 A. Yes. He was right behind me. And as I turned around I saw that
6 his head had been severed from the body by shrapnel.
7 Q. And do you know how old Danijel was at the time?
8 A. He was my senior by one or two years. So he may have been 10 or
10 Q. And you mentioned earlier that Admir and Elvir were also injured.
11 Do you know how old they were?
12 A. Elvir was the oldest among us. I think he was roughly four years
13 older than me. And Admir, roughly two years older than me.
14 Q. So, now you're running, you're all running towards the building,
15 and you fall on the ground. Do you remember what happened next?
16 A. I fell. I tried to get up. I couldn't. I fell to the ground
17 again and saw that my leg was injured. As I fell down, I turned around
18 and saw Danijel lying headless. My father arrived at that point. Some
19 persons came with a car and picked us up, the three of us, in a group who
20 were injured there. I myself was taken to the Dobrinja hospital.
21 MS. LEE: At this point, Your Honour, I would like to tender this
22 360-degree photograph bearing 65 ter 10275B as the next public exhibit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Ms. Lee, you asked the witness a
24 few questions about a specific portion of this 360-degree panoramic video
25 and I'd like to put on the record where we looked at when you asked these
1 questions. The questions you asked after, where the transcript says
2 "video-clip played," we are then looking at that portion of the video
3 which shows a street, and to the left a little white van at a distance,
4 some people standing before it, and on the right, a person walking on the
5 pavement, more or less behind what seems to be a traffic sign, and in the
6 back of it, a light green structure with a brown belt on it. That was
7 the portion we looked at when you asked these questions.
8 MS. LEE: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And that's hereby put on the record. Any objections
10 against admission? Yes. But let's first deal with the --
11 Mr. Stojanovic, any objection against admission of the video?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as a matter of
13 principle I do not, but you think it would be fair for the transcript to
14 say when this photo was taken, especially in view of what the witness has
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, first of all, admission, no objections.
17 Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10275B becomes Exhibit P416,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
21 Any information as to when the photograph was taken, Ms. Lee?
22 MS. LEE: Yes. I believe I have prefaced to the witness before
23 playing that and this photograph was taken in 2002. The exact date is
24 28th of February, 2002.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that.
1 Judge Moloto has a question for you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Kapetanovic, good morning.
3 I just want to ask one question. Are you able, looking at this
4 picture, to show us the building which houses your apartment?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The only thing that shows is
6 the grey building in the upper right corner. That's number 5. And the
7 entrance to where our apartment is, is behind this.
8 MS. LEE: Your --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 MS. LEE: Your Honour, can I play -- can I show him the entire
11 360 and perhaps the witness could point out whether or not he recognises
12 his apartment building. Because right now we're only looking at one
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you move it slightly, I take it then, to the
15 right. And let's do it in steps of 45 degrees approximately.
16 MS. LEE: And also for your information, Your Honour, I am --
17 JUDGE ORIE: This is approximately 45 degrees, I would say, yes.
18 MS. LEE: I will also be tendering still images of this panoramic
19 photo which I will be dealing very shortly.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, now looking at this picture again,
21 could you further explain your previous answer.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have to move -- pan out a little
23 further. This is the building where I live, but not the right entrance.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We are now looking at a picture -- a part of the
25 picture where the word "foto" on the building is to the very right.
1 We'll now pan further for another 45 degrees.
2 Could we stop here.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now we see entrance number 3, and
4 our apartment is at the next entrance, number 2. So we have to rotate a
5 bit further.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What we looked at is now the building central in the
7 picture where the word "foto" still appears, approximately 90 degrees,
8 which would mean east, direction east, compared to where we started with
10 Could we pan further another 45 degrees.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's 45 degrees approximately. A little bit
13 beyond that.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now you can see our entrance,
15 approximately where the man walking on the pavement can be seen.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Please proceed, Ms. Lee.
18 MS. LEE:
19 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, were you shown still pictures of this
20 360-photograph in preparation of your testimony today?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. LEE: Your Honours, could I please ask the Court Officer to
23 bring 65 ter 10275A to our screens and these are the three still images
24 taken from P416.
25 And could I also please have the usher's assistance in setting up
1 the smart monitor so that the witness could mark on these images in red.
2 Your Honours, I will be asking the witness to make several
3 markings. Would this time be more appropriate to take a break or should
4 we --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you inform us as to how much time you
6 would still need.
7 MS. LEE: I would need about 15 to 20 minutes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because your initial assessment was --
9 MS. LEE: 45 minutes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: 45 minutes. Okay, I think it would be better to
11 take a break first.
12 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
13 We take a short break, Mr. Kapetanovic, and then we'd like to see
14 you back. Would you please follow the usher.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes past
18 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for the witness to appear, Ms. Lee.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee, you may proceed with your examination.
25 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Is the Smart monitor on for the witness marking in red?
2 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, can I ask that you not make any markings until
3 you have finished listening to my question and also until I ask you to
4 mark the pictures.
5 A. Very well.
6 MS. LEE: Can we go to e-court page 1.
7 Q. Looking at this picture, can you tell us where the shell that had
8 injured you and your friends fell?
9 A. This photo is taken, actually, from the spot where the shell
11 Q. Now, can you see on this picture the location where you and your
12 friends were sledding that day?
13 A. Yes, I can.
14 Q. Please mark it with an X and put number 1 beside it.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Could you indicate with an arrow the direction toward which you
17 and your friends were running after the explosion?
18 A. Yes, I can. We were running towards the entrance to our
19 apartment building.
20 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I would like it tender this picture as
21 marked by the witness as the next public exhibit.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10275A, as marked by the witness,
24 becomes Exhibit P417, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. The witness used a
1 circle rather than an X to make his first marking.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. LEE: Can we please go to page 2 in e-court.
4 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you see your building in this picture?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you mark it with an X and put number 2 beside it.
7 A. The entrance itself is not shown in this picture. This is
8 entrance number 3.
9 Q. Okay. But you see your building?
10 A. Yes, yes, I see it.
11 Q. And can you mark your building.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And put number 2 beside it?
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Can you see on this picture the location where you were thrown to
16 the ground after the shelling?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Please mark it with an X and put number 3 beside it.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Do you see the location where you saw Danijel's body after the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I'd like you to put an X and put number 4 beside it.
24 A. Danijel was right behind me, here.
25 Q. And could you also indicate with an arrow the direction towards
1 which you and your friends were running after hearing the loud explosion.
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I would like to tender this picture as
4 marked by the witness as the next public exhibit.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P418, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Do we understand that these -- this -- this is
10 the -- this was the second page of the 65 ter number you indicated at the
12 MS. LEE: Yes, it was.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And it now receives a separate exhibit number.
14 MS. LEE: Exhibit number. Because it has different markings,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
17 MS. LEE: Can we now go to page three in e-court of the same
18 65 ter number.
19 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you see -- first of all, what street are we
20 on here?
21 A. Cetinska Street.
22 Q. And can you see Clara Zetkin Street on this picture?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now can you draw a line where Cetinska Street ends and where
25 Clara Zetkin Street begins?
1 A. Yes. Approximately about here is where Cetinska ends, and then
2 Clara Zetkin begins. And towards us, that's where Cetinska Street is.
3 Q. So now I see that you made an arrow and that's towards Clara
4 Zetkin Street. That would be -- where the arrow is, that you would be on
5 Clara Zetkin Street there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you -- I apologise. Can you put a K beside it, beside the
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Can you see on this picture the location where you fell on the
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Please put an X on it and put number 5 beside it.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And can you see where Admir fell after the explosion?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I would like to -- I apologise. I would like you to put an X and
18 put number 6 beside it.
19 A. [Marks]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee, the Chamber wonders whether it is really
21 necessary on the second photograph where we see more or less the same to
22 mark again what -- the whole marking, of course, the relevance of that is
23 already subject to some doubt, but in view of the adjudicated facts. But
24 then to have it marked on two photographs -- okay. But let's proceed --
25 MS. LEE: Yes, that was my last marking, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That was your last marking.
2 Then, Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Page 3 of document 10275A as marked by witness
4 becomes Exhibit P419, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. LEE:
8 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you know how many people were injured or
9 killed by the shelling on the 22nd of January, 1994, along with you and
10 your friends.
11 A. Six children were killed. There were three who were wounded in
12 my group, and that is in Cetinska Street; whereas in Clara Zetkin, I'm
13 not exactly sure about the number of boys who were injured.
14 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, in paragraph 9 of your statement, you say that
15 the spot where you and your friends were sledding was on the other side
16 of the building from some sort of military headquarters. Could you tell
17 us who you believed occupied this sort of military headquarters?
18 A. As far as I know, their name was Kulin Ban.
19 MS. LEE: Your Honours, in reliance of adjudicated fact 2434, I
20 will move on from this issue.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MS. LEE:
23 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, I will now play a video of a news broad from the
24 22nd of January, 1994. After playing this video I will have some
25 specific questions for you.
1 MS. LEE: Your Honour, Ms. Stewart will now play the video-clip
2 bearing 65 ter 28448, using Sanction.
3 Your Honour, I take it that the protocol is to play the video
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you want to rely on the text, then it
6 should be played twice.
7 MS. LEE: And the transcripts have been provided to the booths.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before it will be played again, one second, Ms. Lee.
10 Mr. Kapetanovic, I can imagine that it's not easy for you to look
11 at these pictures. Now, for very technical reasons, we have to play it
12 again, but if you would prefer not to see it for a second time at this
13 moment, I'll ask your monitor to be switched off when we look at it for a
14 second time, and if you would prefer to take your earphones off, you're
15 free to do so. I just wanted to inquire with you, whether you'd prefer
16 not to look a second time within ten minutes to this.
17 Would you prefer not to look at it again?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will look at it again.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will play it again and that's mainly for us
20 to receive the proper translation. That's the reason why we play it
22 MS. LEE: Your Honour, if I may, I will be stopping at various
23 segments of the video.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MS. LEE: And I would like the witness to comment. Can I stop at
1 those segments at this time or should we play the entire clip again and
2 then go back to those?
3 JUDGE ORIE: You can stop. But then have you to wait until the
4 translation, up to that point in time, is finished.
5 MS. LEE: Okay.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And then can you ask questions.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]: Today on this spot in Sarajevo
9 six boys and girls were killed by two criminal shells. Two were
10 seriously injured. Six young Sarajevans were killed in the name of the
11 insane cause of a Greater Serbia. Their only fault was that they trusted
12 the deceptive calm. Not one of the victim boys and girls had been born
13 yet at the time of the winter Olympics in Sarajevo exactly 10 years ago.
14 The little Olympians exchanged their occupied ice ranges and sleighing
15 slopes on the surrounding hills for the ice on the parking lot. On these
16 sleds two girls got killed. They had borrowed the sleds from their
18 MS. LEE:
19 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you recognise this street?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. LEE: Your Honours, we have just stopped at 56 seconds of the
23 Can we now please continue to play.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]: The majority of the Bosnian
1 people cannot receive the signal of Bosnia and Herzegovina television.
2 This broadcast is rebroadcast on the radio and therefore we will relate
3 that. Right now on the screen there are imagines of scattered brain
4 matter and blood sled by Sarajevo boys and girls. Our radio signal can
5 be heard in Serbia. Tonight Serbia should hear that her heros killed six
6 little Sarajevans with their cannons today. Serbia must hear that so far
7 her sons have killed other 1.600 Sarajevo children and about 20.000 in
8 Bosnia Herzegovina. Serbia should hear that these were not only Muslim
9 children. Here, Serbian soldiers are also killing Serbian and Croatian
10 children and children from mixed marriages. Today and tomorrow are days
11 of rest in Serbia and Europe.
12 Belgrade TV will not broadcast the images of the dead little
13 Sarajevans. The European TV stations will edit out these horrific images
14 in order not to spoil the weekend for the viewers. The diplomatics come
15 of Europe and the world are skiing with their children on the mountain
16 slopes of Europe. The children in Serbia and Europe today..."
17 MS. LEE: Your Honours, we have stopped at 2 minutes and
18 8 seconds within the video.
19 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you recognise this location?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us where this location is in relation to where you
23 A. This is Cetinska Street and further on it's Clara Zetkin Street.
24 While I was back, further back.
25 MS. LEE: We could continue playing this video.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]: The children in Serbia and Europe
3 today do not know that their fathers are criminals. We are poorer today
4 for six little lilies. We're six times sadder today than we were
5 yesterday. Today we have to be six times stronger.
6 "These chilling imagines of massacred children's bodies are proof
7 of the hell of war that we're going through. Today, again, from the
8 surrounding hills the Chetniks continued killing and destroying
9 everything that is human and worth mentioning. Chetniks shells have
10 forever ended the lives of six of our youngest citizens. All they were
11 guilty of was sledding.
12 "The seriously injured 10-year-old ..."
13 MS. LEE: Your Honours, we have stopped at 3 minutes and
14 7 seconds.
15 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, who is this person?
16 A. That's me.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]: The seriously injured
19 Muhamed Kapetanovic was taken to hospital by his father. Four shells
20 fell on Alipasino Polje block C in Cetinska street and Clara
21 Zetkin Street. At that moment I was in the bathroom. The little one was
22 outside" --
23 MS. LEE: We have stopped at 3 minutes and 16 seconds.
24 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic who is this person?
25 A. That is my father.
1 Q. What is his name?
2 A. Hamed.
3 Q. His full name?
4 A. Hamed Kapetanovic.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]: At that moment, I was in the
8 bathroom. The little one was outside and when my daughters looked out
9 the window they screamed saying, The little one is getting killed. I ran
10 out, barely managing to put on some clothes. I didn't even dry myself
11 off. When I came down they were lying there. There were many dead and
12 injured. First aid was administered at Dobrinja and now I brought him
13 here and I don't know what will be with him. He is seriously injured.
14 Muhamed was seriously injured in the jaw and leg by a shell.
15 "We were by the sheds skating. All of a sudden a shell fell. We
16 started running. In front of us we started running towards the house
17 entrance and as Danijel and I started running, a shell landed between the
18 two of us. He was killed on the spot and I was injured in four places.
19 The doctors are still fighting for the lives of the brothers,
20 Ahmethodzic, Elvir and Admir.
21 MS. LEE:
22 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, at the end of the video, the reporter mentioned
23 two names, Elvir and Admir. Are these the same two friends with whom you
24 were playing that day?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And, finally, Mr. Kapetanovic, do you know the extent of the
2 injures that Admir and Elvir sustained from the shelling?
3 A. Admir's left leg was amputated.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat what he said last.
5 MS. LEE:
6 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you repeat your answer. I think the
7 interpreters have not heard you fully. Can you repeat if you know the
8 extent of injuries that Admir and Elvir sustained.
9 A. Admir's left leg was amputated below the hip. And Elvir had also
10 sustained injured to his left leg.
11 Q. And how do you know this?
12 A. Well, I know them.
13 Q. Do you -- are you still -- did you remain in contact with them?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. LEE: Your Honours, at this time I would like it tender into
16 evidence the video-clip as the next public exhibit.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
18 Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: May I have just the number of the video-clip?
20 MS. LEE: Oh, yes, it's 65 ter 28448. I apologise.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P420, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
23 MS. LEE: Your Honours, this completes my examination.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Lee.
25 Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It will be short, Your Honour.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] My name is Miodrag Stojanovic, and I am one the
4 Defence counsel.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just wanted to tell Mr. Kapetanovic that you
6 will now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic, who introduced himself
7 already as a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Can we have document P3 in e-court, the photograph on page 5.
11 While we're waiting for it, Your Honours, it's a collection of
12 photographs provided by the Prosecution which were used repeatedly in the
13 courtroom before.
14 Can we zoom in on the lower part of the photograph, the centre.
15 It's an aerial image.
16 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, kindly tell us if you can by looking at the
17 airport runway find the location of the buildings that you spoke of
19 A. Well, I can't see them at the moment, no.
20 Q. Very well.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we then look at page 6 of
22 the same document. We'll come back to this image later. Thank you. Let
23 us enlarge the central area where we have the green and red frames.
24 Thank you.
25 Q. Sir, by looking at this photograph, can you find the areas that
1 you marked on the previous photographs?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you mark, the same way as you did before, with a red circle,
4 the spot where you were at the time the shell was fired?
5 A. The photograph is rather small.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee.
7 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I was just wondering since this witness
8 has made markings in red for the Prosecution, if the markings could be
9 done in a different colour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is usually done. It's now marking -- at
11 the request of the Defence will be in blue.
12 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could the photograph, could it be blown up a
14 bit, to say the lower left part to be blown up.
15 Does this help you, Mr. Kapetanovic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then mark with a circle the places you
18 were asked to do, the spot where you were at the time the shell was
20 And I take it, Mr. Stojanovic, that you intend to ask the witness
21 to mark the spot when the shell was fired that hit the witness or any of
22 the previous shells he heard being fired?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour. I will
24 have other questions, and we will be marking spot by spot. And we will
25 use it as one exhibit ultimately.
1 Q. So the first question was to mark the spot where you were at the
2 time when the shell landed.
3 A. So you mean where I stood? Well, roughly here. I am not that
4 precise, really.
5 Q. Can you make it a circle and mark it with number 1.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Thank you. On this same map, if you recall, can you mark the
8 spot where, to the best of your knowledge, the first shell landed which
9 prompted you to start running?
10 A. I don't know where the first shell landed. We only heard the
11 sound and started running.
12 Q. Thank you. And thirdly, can you mark the spot where --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee.
14 MS. LEE: I apologise, Your Honour. The witness just made the
15 marking after hearing the first question and he was asked to put a circle
16 and put a place number 1 beside it. And I just see two little circles
17 and so if that could be clarified.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MS. LEE: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the two little circles you have
21 drawn are approximately indicating where you were when the shell fell
22 which hit you?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The place that I marked was the
24 place where I was when I heard the first explosion. And if you could
25 blow up the image further, it will be clearer.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to ask the
2 technical service to do that, although then we will lose the markings.
3 So I will ask the witness to mark the places again.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we somewhere again have on the screen the
5 same picture and not store the markings as we had them now and then to
6 blow up the central part.
7 Still a bit more, please.
8 Are you able to orient yourself, Mr. Kapetanovic, on the -- on
9 the map?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you mark again with a little circle and a
12 number 1 where you were when you heard the shells being fired, when you
13 were still playing.
14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you now also mark where you were
16 when the shell landed which hit you? Also a circle and please a little 2
17 perhaps to the right of that circle.
18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The upper circle was the circle marked by
20 number 1. The lower one by number 2.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance.
23 Q. Can I ask you to place the circle and number 3 at the location
24 where, to the best of your recollection, the command of the Kulin Ban BH
25 army unit was located?
1 MS. LEE: Objection. I object to this question, Your Honour.
2 Information was put to the witness that it was a command of a BiH army,
3 and that's something that this witness has not testified to anywhere. So
4 that's suggesting -- it is rather suggestive, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is. But it is clear to you, you referred to
6 Kulin Ban. That's the name you thought was given to a certain location.
7 Could you mark with a circle -- you've done it already. I see it. Yes.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do not want to interrupt my
10 questioning, but I would like to present to you item 9 which is adduced
11 here as evidence where the witness said that the place where we were
12 skating was across from the location where there was some sort of
13 military staff. So when I said staff I was referring to what the witness
15 JUDGE ORIE: The matter -- the matter has been resolved. So
16 let's not -- let's proceed at this moment and elicit further evidence
17 from the witness.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, I apologise, but I will have several short
20 questions. Don't hold it against me.
21 To the best of your recollection, how long was it between the
22 first and the second shells landed? How much time elapsed?
23 A. I don't recall that.
24 Q. My second question. Can you give us an estimation of the
25 distance you covered, or of the distance between the place you stood when
1 you heard the first shell land and which you marked as circle number 1
2 and the place that you marked where you were hit?
3 A. Roughly 10 to 15 metres.
4 Q. So am I right in saying that the -- in the time interval between
5 the two shells, you covered these 10 to 15 metres? Am I right?
6 A. When the first shell landed, we started running, and then the
7 second landed.
8 Q. Thank you for your help. At the time, you didn't know what sort
9 of shell it was and what weapon fired it.
10 A. No.
11 Q. You didn't even know the direction the shell flew in from.
12 A. No.
13 Q. You don't know who it was who fired the shell, do you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Thank you. I am sorry for everything that happened to you, and I
16 have no other questions for you.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,
18 if this is the right time, I would suggest that we do as we did before,
19 which is that the witness should sign the marked photographs so that we
20 can tender it as a Defence exhibit.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think we never did that here. And the markings
22 are clear in e-court, so, therefore, there's no need to do that.
23 Madam Registrar, the number of this marked map would be ...
24 THE REGISTRAR: Of the page 5 of document P3 as marked by the
25 witness in court will become Exhibit D82, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. It is admitted into
3 Any need for further investigation -- further examination,
4 Ms. Lee?
5 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honour, in light of the cross-examination, I
6 have a couple of --
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. I
8 apologise to my learned friend. If I was told correctly, this is page 6
9 rather than page 5 of the collection of the aerial images. I want to
10 avoid any confusion. I apologise.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Most important is we know what we're looking at.
12 Madam Registrar has managed to get this on the screen and that the
13 exhibit, as now admitted, reflects whatever page it was, the cut-out
14 portion of the map as it's found in the binders. I even think that the
15 page number is page --
16 THE REGISTRAR: It is page 6, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's page 6. And it's -- in the hard copy version
18 it is page 3, a cut-out of page 3.
19 Yes. Ms. Lee.
20 MS. LEE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
21 Re-examination by Ms. Lee:
22 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, the Kulin Ban that you mentioned and that you
23 marked here as number 3, this building, have you ever visited this
24 building during the war?
25 A. No. No, I didn't. But I was close by.
1 Q. And did you know the Kulin Ban personally?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So do you know which -- to which army the Kulin Ban belonged to?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I'm -- did you know -- did you know personally at that time
6 which -- which army that the Kulin Ban belonged to? Is this something
7 that you knew from your personal knowledge?
8 A. Yes, I did know that. They bore the insignia of the
9 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 Q. And my final question is: On the day before hearing the first
11 shell that landed in the vicinity where you and your friends were
12 playing, did you hear any shells or gun-fires that came out of your
13 neighbourhood or near the Kulin Ban building on the date of the incident?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, no speaking.
15 Mr. Stojanovic.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the
17 question does not arise from cross-examination. It actually is beyond
18 the scope of cross-examination.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see.
20 Well, Kulin Ban was specifically addressed by you, so, therefore,
21 it is so closely related to what was asked in cross-examination that
22 Ms. Lee may put this question.
23 Could you please repeat the question for the witness.
24 MS. LEE: Yes.
25 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, on the date of the incident, before hearing the
1 first shell and after which you -- you and your friends began to run
2 home, did you hear -- or did you -- did you hear any shells or gun-fires
3 that came from your neighbourhood or this Kulin Ban building that you
4 just marked?
5 A. No, I didn't hear any explosions. That day was peaceful, and
6 that was why we were outdoors.
7 MS. LEE: Your Honours, this completes my re-direct.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Lee.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one brief question for you.
12 And could we have on our screens the -- Madam Registrar, perhaps
13 you could assist me, the first of the three photographs that were marked
14 by the witness and were separated.
15 THE REGISTRAR: It was P417, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P417.
17 If you would give me one second to phrase my question,
18 Mr. Kapetanovic. Yes, could I ask you the following: Do I understand
19 you well that you were playing approximately where this greenish shed is
20 at the end of the street which you marked? You were playing there, and
21 it's there where you heard the first shell being fired, which made you
22 run back home.
23 Is that correctly understood?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you were asked how far you ran
1 approximately when you heard that shell up till the moment where the
2 shell landed and you were hit by that shell. You remember that?
3 A. Yes. My answer was 10 to 15 metres.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If I look at this photographs, I have some
5 difficulty with your estimate that it would be only 10 or 15 metres,
6 because it seems to be far more to me; because, first, to cross the
7 street from the shed, from the green shed, and then it seems that it was
8 quite a bit more. Would you agree with me, or ... because 15 metres, as
9 far as I am able to deduce from this picture, would certainly -- not any
10 closer than where this man walks.
11 A. I didn't quite understand what you're saying. You mean to say
12 that I ran and -- for more than 15 metres?
13 JUDGE ORIE: At least. I -- looking at this photograph, I would
14 not exclude that the distance would have been more than the 10 or more
15 metres you told us.
16 A. Can you repeat what you said? I'm afraid I didn't understand.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I wondered whether the distance you ran, starting at
18 the shed where you were sleighing, whether, when you were hit, whether
19 you had not yet covered more metres than the 10 or 15 you told us.
20 A. I don't know. My estimate was 15 metres.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 Any further questions? If not, Mr. Kapetanovic, this concludes
23 your testimony in this court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming
24 the long way to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that
25 were put to you. I can imagine that it may not have been easy for you to
1 have been taken back to the incident you testified about.
2 We wish you a safe return home again.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before the next witness is called, I
8 need to make a submission to the Chamber. I can do that either before or
9 after the break, whichever pleases the Court.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think if you can do it in two or three minutes
11 then we will then take a break.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, this submission relates to the next
13 witness, Richard Mole. Several weeks ago, Ms. Hochhauser brought to my
14 attention a document that she came across in her final preparations to
15 lead the evidence of this witness. It was her opinion that the document
16 was of a type that we were obliged to disclose under Rule 68(i). After
17 studying the document considering that in the context of this case, the
18 case against Mr. Mladic, I shared her opinion and made the legal
19 determination that our obligations under Rule 68(i) did require us to
20 disclose the document. The document is identified by ERN number R0155267
21 to R0155270. It is a document of four pages, one being a fax cover and a
22 three-page memo. It was provided to the OTP by an organisation pursuant
23 to Rule 70.
24 Once the determination was made that disclosure was required, we
25 requested from the provider permission to disclose the document to
1 Mr. Mladic. We are still discussing this request with the provider but
2 we're unfortunately unable to secure permission to disclose it prior to
3 today, the date of the witness's evidence.
4 When it became clear that the hurricane over the eastern seaboard
5 would make it impossible to get this permission, I brought it to the
6 attention of both Mr. Lukic and Mr. Nilsson, the Chamber's
7 Senior Legal Officer. I proposed to Mr. Lukic that we proceed with the
8 evidence of Mr. Mole and that I would disclose the document as soon as we
9 received permission to do so. Further, I gave an undertaking that I
10 would not oppose any application by the Mladic Defence to recall the
11 witness should it deem that it is necessary to question the witness about
12 the document.
13 The matter has been raised with Mr. Mole and he appreciates and
14 accepts that he may be required to return to The Hague.
15 If that is an acceptable way of proceeding, Your Honour, the
16 Prosecution would be prepared to call Mr. Mole at this stage.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that the Defence does not disagree
18 with proceeding as you suggested.
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'm handling the witness. Mr. Lukic
20 did advise me of this yesterday, and I agreed with him this appeared to
21 be a reasonable means of proceeding.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll proceed as suggested by Mr. Groome. But
23 we'll first take a break, and we'll resume at a quarter to 2.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 1.26 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 1.53 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, unless there are any preliminaries,
2 I would like to -- the witness to be escorted into the courtroom.
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, good afternoon.
4 As the witness is being brought in, I would just like to place on
5 the record the adjudicated fact on which the Prosecution relied in
6 redacting the proposed 92 ter statement and in deciding not to elicit
7 certain information during examination.
8 Those adjudicated facts are the following numbers: 1731, 1808,
9 2036, 2037, 2039, 2047, 2049, 2050, and 2051.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, I inform the Prosecution and the parties
13 that leave to reply to the response to the 92 ter motion is granted.
14 Good afternoon, Mr. Mole.
15 THE WITNESS: Sir.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mole, before you give evidence, the Rules
17 require that you make a solemn declaration, the text of which is handed
18 out to you now.
19 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
21 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: RICHARD MOLE
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mole. Please be seated.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, there was also a request for adding
1 documents to the 65 ter list. Whenever it comes to tendering of any of
2 the documents, the Chamber will understand this as including a decision
3 on adding the document to the 65 ter list. So we come to that once the
4 document is dealt with.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Mr. Mole, you will first be examined, although not for a very
8 long time today, for only 20 minutes, by Ms. Hochhauser. Ms. Hochhauser
9 is counsel for the Prosecution.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.
12 Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel. Can you please state your name for the
15 A. My name is Richard Mole.
16 Q. And are you currently employed, Colonel Mole?
17 A. I am. I'm self-employed.
18 Q. I take it then that you are retired from any military service?
19 A. I retired in 1993.
20 Q. And what was the last position you held before retiring?
21 A. I was the Chief of Staff in a unit in Germany from whence I went
22 to Bosnia on the UN attachment.
23 Q. I have just been reminded by Ms. Stewart to myself and I'll
24 advise you as well that we need to pause between our questions and
25 answers since we're speaking in the same language. Give a little time
1 for the translators.
2 Now, Colonel Mole, you have previously provided statement to the
3 Office of the Prosecutor in September 1997 and April 2002; is that right?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. You also previously testified in the cases against both
6 Stanislav Galic and Radovan Karadzic; is that correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. In preparation for your testimony in the Karadzic case, you
9 signed amalgamated statement on 7th of May, 2010, which amalgamated
10 relevant portions of your two previous statements and the testimony in
11 the Galic case; is that correct?
12 A. It is.
13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If I could please ask the usher to place 65 ter
14 28455 on the monitor.
15 Q. And, Colonel, do you recognise the document on the screen in
16 front of you?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. And is that the amalgamated statement we just discussed?
19 A. It is.
20 Q. Now, have you had the opportunity to review this statement again
21 before testifying here today?
22 A. I have.
23 Q. On 17 August 2010 during your testimony in the Karadzic case,
24 in -- in that case as transcript page 5805 to 5806, you made a correction
25 to your amalgamated statement at paragraph 12 in which you stated that
1 the sentence as it reads in the written document which says, "There were
2 approximately seven manned observation posts on each side" should in fact
3 read as follows:
4 JUDGE ORIE: Which paragraph, Ms. Hochhauser.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, it's at paragraph 12.
6 And I believe this information, this correction was previously provided
7 to the Chamber and Defence via e-mail.
8 Q. So at paragraph 12 should correctly read:
9 "With respect to the monitoring of weapons, there were 14
10 observation posts. At the end of October 1992, ten were on the Lima side
11 and four on the Papa side. By the end of November 1992, there were 11 on
12 the Lima side and three on the Papa side, and this remained the case
13 until my departure."
14 Now, what I've just read, is that a correction to your
15 amalgamated statement that you would still make today?
16 A. It is.
17 Q. And other than that correction, is the statement that's on the
18 monitor in front of you, the amalgamated statement, both accurate and
20 A. It is.
21 Q. If you were asked the same questions today that you were asked
22 when you provided the information contained in this statement, would you
23 give the same answers?
24 A. I would.
25 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, if I may I now tender 65 ter 28455,
1 the amalgamated statement, into evidence. I see my colleague is
2 standing, so ...
3 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No objection.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Okay.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar -- Mr. Registrar. We've changed
7 during the last session.
8 THE REGISTRAR: It becomes Exhibit P421, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P421 is admitted into evidence.
10 You may proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.
11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, at this time I would also like to
12 tender the associated exhibits into evidence. As Your Honours will note
13 from the chart provided one of the associated exhibits is already in
14 evidence as P00300.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Can we take them one by one --
16 MR. IVETIC: No objections.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No objections to anyone of them?
18 MR. IVETIC: That is correct, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we go through them one by one.
20 65 ter 10775.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P422, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P423, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P424, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P425, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
7 65 ter 10787.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P426, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
10 65 ter 15875.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P427, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
13 Next one is 15895.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P428, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
16 Last one, 19543.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P429, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And is also admitted into evidence.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time, with the Court's
21 permission, I will read a brief summary of just the written evidence
22 contained in Mr. Mole's statement.
23 Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Mole served in the British Army for
24 over 20 years prior to his assignment to the former Yugoslavia as a
25 United Nations Military Observer. After initial posts in Croatia and in
1 Belgrade, Colonel Mole was posted to Sarajevo as a
2 Senior Military Observer and served there from 16 September 1992 until 26
3 December 1992. In Sarajevo, Colonel Mole was in charge of approximately
4 60 United Nations Military Observers positioned on both sides of the
5 confrontation line with a mandate to, among observer things, monitor and
6 report on heavy weapons activity.
7 Colonel Mole's written evidence describes the intense shelling in
8 Sarajevo and the intense psychological pressure which resulted for the
9 city's citizens.
10 He describes indiscriminate and untargeted shelling of the city
11 by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and how he and his monitors sought
12 explanations from that corps' commanders and received explanations which
13 showed no military justification for the shelling.
14 Colonel Mole frequently met with the SRK commander,
15 General Galic, and observed the regular and effective chain of command of
16 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. He also protested the indiscriminate shelling
17 to members of that corps and to its command and in his evidence states
18 that Galic threatened to shell Sarajevo city if events elsewhere did not
19 transpire in the favour of the Bosnian Serbs.
20 Colonel Mole came to view the Bosnian Serb strategy in Sarajevo
21 as a policy of containment in that their use of force was not justified
22 by military necessity but rather by an effort to apply pressure to the
23 city in order to achieve their aims.
24 Your Honour, that concludes my summary.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser. If you have any further
1 questions for the witness, please proceed.
2 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
3 Q. Now, Colonel Mole, as you know the Chamber is already in position
4 of the statement which is now in evidence and has carefully reviewed it
5 so that our time in court will be spent clarifying a few things from your
6 statement and discussing topics that are not addressed in it.
7 First, I'd like to define a few terms that you say use in your
8 statement. You refer throughout it to the Lima and Papa sides. Can you
9 just tell us which is Lima and which is Papa?
10 A. The Papa side was that designated applied to the Presidency side
11 within the city of Sarajevo. The Lima side was designated UNMOs outside
12 the city, hosted by the SRK.
13 Q. You used in your statement the term increp, i-n-c-r-e-p. Can you
14 tell us what is that?
15 A. It is a short word for instant report.
16 Q. And also shootrep?
17 A. Similarly it's a short word for shoot report.
18 Q. And sitrep is that --
19 A. Situation report.
20 Q. Can you tell us just a brief description of what is recorded in
21 each of those three reports, what the differences are?
22 A. A situation report would be a report that I would probably
23 assemble using information and data that I had collected for submission
24 up my chain of command.
25 A shootrep would be a report that was completed on a pro forma,
1 as was an incident report, completed on a pro forma.
2 The shootrep would record outgoing rounds from weapons that
3 UN Military Observers were next to or nearby or could observe.
4 The increp or incident report would be a reciprocal report except
5 that it would report incoming fire that, again, was observed by
6 United Nations Military Observers.
7 Q. Now you told us -- you describe it as a pro forma. Is that
8 meaning a standardised form that was used for all the reporters?
9 A. Yes. There was a form which we trained the individual
10 UN Military Observers to use. The aim of giving them a standard form was
11 to facilitate reading serials over a radio without having to go through
12 detailed explanation. I feel sure that we'll probably come onto the
13 detail of that later.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I might interrupt, I'm sorry. Just for my
15 edification, Colonel, when you say a shootrep, I beg your pardon. When
16 you talk of an outgoing fire from weapons that the United Nations
17 Military Observers were next to or nearby or could observe, I'm not quite
18 sure I understand what -- who was actually shooting.
19 THE WITNESS: The question, sir, was relating to the form. I
20 didn't say who was or wasn't shooting.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking the question.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay. It could be either side.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
25 Q. Colonel Mole, just to follow up on that for a moment. The UN
1 monitor who was filling out the form, can you give us an example of where
2 they would be -- where one might be standing when filling out a shootrep?
3 Where they might be positioned.
4 A. Indeed. As the name of the report suggests, it is a weapon that
5 is actually being fired, so clearly a UN Military Observer would have to
6 be in the proximity of that weapon to be able to observe it. So for the
7 majority of the shootreps which were expedited, most of them would be on
8 the Lima side, since that was where most heavy weapons were. So if I may
9 give an example.
10 Q. Please.
11 A. That, on a gun site where UN Military Observers were co-located
12 with that gun site, if the commander of the gun decided on a fire mission
13 once the rounds were leaving the weapons, it would invoke a shootrep.
14 That shootrep would then be filled out filling in the all the various
15 serials within that form to give as much information as possible so that
16 that could then be reported to myself and up the chain of command.
17 Q. Now, in paragraphs 12 through 14 of your statement you talk about
18 observation posts and weapon sights at the two different types of
19 locations that you were monitoring. And I think you have just begun to
20 give an example of perhaps a weapon sight. Can you tell us the
21 difference, please, between observation posts and weapons sights. What
22 are the two different types of locations that you're monitoring?
23 A. I think it's important at this stage to put the two into
25 The airport agreement of 1992 initiated weapon collection points,
1 and that was invoked on both sides. The detail of the agreement
2 included, or was meant to include, the collection of weapons so that they
3 then wouldn't be used.
4 Now that isn't what transpired. What happened was we had
5 UN Military Observers who were allocated to weapons sights but the
6 weapons were still obviously in use. Now that applied to both sides, the
7 Presidency side and the Serb side. So, as a consequence, we deployed
8 UN Military Observers to Papa and Lima, as I've already explained.
9 Disposition of weapons on both sides was at variance. Most of
10 the heavy weapons were held by the Serb side. Some were held by the
11 Presidency side.
12 Now, at this juncture I must point out that when I talk of the
13 Presidency side, I speak of those weapons within Sarajevo, within the
14 city itself. They didn't have a large number of weapons within the
15 Presidency side --
16 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a --
17 MR. IVETIC: There's a problem with the interpretation,
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Interpretation seems to be problematic.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 JUDGE ORIE: But the clock seems to be problematic as well at
22 this moment because we usually finish at quarter past 2.00. It is
23 quarter past 2.00 now so we have a whole night to repair any other
24 technical problems.
25 Mr. Mole, we'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same
1 courtroom. But I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak with
2 or communicate in any other way with whomever about your testimony,
3 either the -- the testimony given today or testimony still to be given in
4 tomorrow or even the day after tomorrow.
5 So we'd like to see you back, and I invite you to follow the
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow,
10 Thursday, the 1st of November, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same
11 courtroom, I.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of
14 November, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.