Page 4229

 1                           Wednesday, 31 October 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             There seem to be no preliminaries.  Could the witness be escorted

11     into the courtroom.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's any technical problem with the earphones

14     of Mr. Mladic, then ... resolved?  Yes.  It seems to be resolved.

15             Ms. Bibles.

16             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, the Defence has indicated that the

17     remainder of cross will talk about 45 minutes.  I would like to have a

18     discussion with the Chamber and counsel prior to beginning re-examination

19     which actually may shorten re-examination, and I would suggest that if

20     cross-examination takes about 45 minutes that perhaps we could excuse the

21     witness and take that time to deal with that matter.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, seems that you would agree with such

25     way to proceed.

Page 4230

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is all right, yes,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             Good morning, Ms. Hanson.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that

 7     you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

 8     beginning of your testimony, that you will speak the truth, the whole

 9     truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  DOROTHEA HANSON [Resumed]

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Further, through the VWS, the Chamber was informed

13     that you had forgotten something or left out something in one of your

14     answers yesterday and would like to have an opportunity to complete that

15     answer.

16             You have an opportunity to do so.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I was asked --

18     Mr. Stojanovic asked me yesterday if I had been given any specific

19     taskings relevant to the Mladic case, and I recalled last night that I

20     had been part of large teams in two taskings that were probably relevant.

21     We do large reviews of large numbers of documents for Rule 68,

22     potentially exculpatory documents, and I was involved in that.  And also

23     in the initial review of the Mladic diaries, just -- they put together a

24     lot of people who could read Cyrillic handwriting and we just reviewed to

25     see the dates of the diaries, important meetings, and prioritise for

Page 4231

 1     translation.  I was -- in both cases I was part of large teams.  It was

 2     not specific to me, but I recalled those as potentially relevant.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for completing that answer.

 4             Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to continue your cross-examination?

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Hanson.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  I

 8     hope I am ready.

 9        Q.   If you recall, we finished our yesterday's day's work talking

10     about the composition of the Crisis Staffs and participation of the JNA

11     and VRS in individual staffs.  Let's try to wrap up this topic.  I will

12     put two simple questions to you to that end.

13             Do we agree that, already on the 22nd of May, 1992, the

14     government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina issued a

15     conclusion suggesting that the Crisis Staffs be abolished because as

16     these statement of reasons states, the defence would be taken over by the

17     army?  Is that something that you concluded in your report as well?

18        A.   Yes, I base it on the minutes of the government sessions of the

19     21st and the 23rd of May.  The 21st of May doesn't actually specify the

20     abolishment.  It leave it is blank.  But it says as the army is taking

21     over defence, and on the 23rd they say they have decided to abolished

22     Crisis Staffs.  And the day after that, the 24th of May, is when Plavsic

23     issues the instructions on Presidencies.  So I think -- I see a logical

24     progression there.

25        Q.   Can you agree - and this is something that you spoke of in your

Page 4232

 1     report - that the then-minister of defence in the government of

 2     Republika Srpska on 7th of July in an interview for "Glas" magazine also

 3     suggested that the Crisis Staffs be abolished; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.  It is quite a leap from the 23rd of May to the 7th of July,

 5     but, yes, I certainly cite that in my report.

 6        Q.   Let me finish.  In your research, did you come across information

 7     as to whether any of the municipalities in Republika Srpska following

 8     that date - that's to say, post-7 July 1992 - had operational

 9     Crisis Staffs still or were they renamed differently, as organs of

10     authority?

11        A.   In some municipalities, they had changed the names from

12     Crisis Staff to War Presidency earlier in June.  I believe there are some

13     in July as well.  I believe Kotor Varos, but I would have to check the

14     exact dates.  But I would note that none of them see -- make a

15     distinction in their operations between being a Crisis Staff and being a

16     War Presidency.  They simply regard it as a formal change of name.  I

17     know in Kotor Varos they meet in the morning as a Crisis Staff and meet

18     again the same people in the afternoon as a War Presidency.

19             There are certainly some municipalities still calling a

20     Crisis Staff after the 7th of July, but I would have to look more

21     carefully to recall just which ones.

22        Q.   But can we agree that the relationship between the Crisis Staffs

23     and the VRS, with regard to command and control over the army, grew --

24     growingly different day by day, steadily different, and that it was the

25     VRS that took over the direction of the war?

Page 4233

 1        A.   Absolutely.  That is what I say in my report, yes.

 2        Q.   Can we agree that the Crisis Staffs, War Commissions, or

 3     War Presidencies, or provisional interim governments, as stated in

 4     Zvornik, practically took over the civilian powers of authority.  Am I

 5     right?

 6        A.   What I say in my report is in the beginning, in the early days,

 7     say, in April, they had both powers, or at least a strong role in

 8     organising the defence and co-ordinating.  They lose that role

 9     increasingly as the VRS is formed and takes on that role.  But they were

10     certainly, all the time, they were the civilian powers of authority.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Let me move onto a topic which seems to have slipped

12     away in your report, which is the formation of the Crisis Staffs at the

13     level of autonomous regions or districts, as they were called in certain

14     areas.

15             Were you dealing with the powers and the remit of authority of

16     the Crisis Staffs at the level of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina?

17        A.   As I note in my report, there's such an imbalance in the material

18     available.  There is so much from the ARK level -- from the ARK

19     Crisis Staff and so little from the other Serbian Autonomous Regions that

20     I'm very reluctant to draw any conclusions.  I simply don't know enough.

21             What I do see shows that they did act as an intermediary level.

22     They did assert authority over the municipal Crisis Staffs, and the

23     municipal Crisis Staffs, in turn, cited the Regional Staffs as an

24     authority.  But with so much on the ARK and so little on the other

25     regions, I was reluctant to go into any detail.

Page 4234

 1        Q.   Am I right in saying then that you in your expert report did not

 2     address the powers and relations between local Crisis Staffs and the

 3     autonomous region, or Serb Autonomous Districts as they were called,

 4     elsewhere in Republika Srpska.  Am I right in concluding that?

 5        A.   I mention them only briefly because, as I note, I don't draw

 6     conclusions.  I do mention them, but I don't have enough material to go

 7     into it in detail.

 8        Q.   Then I have only one follow-up question where I'd like you to

 9     help us with your expertise in that area.

10             The Crisis Staffs at the level of the Autonomous Region of the

11     Krajina, or Autonomous District of Semberija, Majevica, Herzegovina and

12     similar, were they superior to and were there conclusion binding on the

13     municipal staffs?  I'm asking you for the period before the 31st of May;

14     that is, before the establishment of the commissions.

15        A.   There is much evidence to that effect, yes, for the ARK.  For the

16     other Autonomous Districts there is less, but it is consistent with a

17     hierarchical relationship of republic, then regional, then municipal.

18     But there is so little on the others I'd have to look pretty hard to find

19     the few examples from, I believe, Birac I have a few.  But definitely yes

20     for ARK.

21        Q.   Let us try and place it in a specific situation.

22             You mentioned Birac and you had ample documentation regarding the

23     Bratunac Crisis Staff, so you dealt with that.

24             This is my question:  After the commissions were established -

25     that's to say, after the 31st of May, 1992 - who were the Crisis Staffs

Page 4235

 1     answerable to under that hierarchy, the Crisis Staff of the SAO Birac,

 2     or, if there was one, and we are not sure whether there was one, a

 3     Crisis Staff at the level of the SDS or was it the SDS Main Board, or

 4     were they answerable to the commissioner appointed pursuant to the

 5     decision establishing War Presidencies; in other words, within whose

 6     competence did the local Crisis Staffs fall?

 7        A.   The Normative documents from the 26th of April, the 24th of May,

 8     and the 31st of May all make it clear that Crisis Staffs and

 9     War Presidencies were to operate on the directives of the Presidency, the

10     assembly, the government of Republika Srpska, and the Main Staff of the

11     VRS.  That would be their ultimate authority.

12             I am certainly not stating that after the 31st of May there was a

13     Crisis Staff at the level of the SDS or the Main Board.  The SDS was

14     frozen as a party.  There was no more party work at the time.  Its

15     leadership had been replaced by that of Presidency.  These are now state

16     organs and they are responsible to the highest state levels.

17             As for the Crisis Staff of SAO Birac, I have no documents from

18     them after the 31st of May and indeed we know that the regional

19     authorities were abolished within a few months at the end of the summer

20     of 1992.  And I have no reason from the documents I have to think that

21     there was a robust and activity SAO Birac Crisis Staff over the summer of

22     1992.  But perhaps there are documents that were simply never brought to

23     the OTP to show otherwise.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at at document in

Page 4236

 1     e-court now.  It's 65 ter 28394.

 2             Your Honours, while we're waiting for the document to appear, let

 3     me say that it's one page from the conclusions published in the Official

 4     Gazette relative to the conclusions from the meetings of the Crisis Staff

 5     of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina for the 15th, 18th and 20th of

 6     May, 1992.

 7        Q.   Ms. Hanson, can we look at the conclusion dated the

 8     18th of May, 1992, specifically item 5, which is part of the conclusions

 9     of the ARK Crisis Staff, and which reads:

10             "Members of other nationalities living in these areas have to

11     defend their centuries' old homesteads under the banner of the Serb

12     republic Bosnia and Herzegovina because peace should be of mutual

13     interest."

14             This is my question:  In view of your analysis relative to the

15     Crisis Staffs locally which were part of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

16     namely, Sanski Most, Kljuc and Prijedor, and I would say that you dealt

17     with those the most, this conclusion dated 18 May issued by the

18     Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina was it binding on these

19     local Crisis Staffs in the part where they are called upon to invite

20     members of other ethnicities to join in the defence effort, those who are

21     in the area?

22             So this is my question simply:  In formal terms, was it binding?

23        A.   Formally, yes.

24        Q.   Then let me ask you this:  Appreciating your previous answer

25     about the subordination line --

Page 4237

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, would you please not make

 2     introductions of eight to ten lines, explaining all kind of things and

 3     then say, in other words, and then phrase a question which has hardly

 4     anything to do with the speech you delivered before that.

 5             Please, questions.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   This is my specific question:  Based on your research, would this

 8     conclusion issued by the ARK Krajina Crisis Staff reflect the obligations

 9     and duties arising from the decisions adopted by the republican level?

10        A.   I'm afraid I find your question a bit vague.  You're saying would

11     this conclusion of the ARK have come from the policies of the republican

12     level.  Is that what you mean?

13        Q.   Correct.  The question is under the system that you explained --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, please, rephrase your question.  And

15     if you say, Does this arise from the decisions adopted by the republican

16     level, then please be more concrete.  If you have one specific decision

17     on your mind, say, Is there any relation with that decision or that

18     decision.  But you invite the witness, more or less, to explore a wide

19     area and find a relationship between what you hint at but not specify and

20     this paragraph 5 of these conclusions.

21             So please be very concrete.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Let me go back to the portion dealt with yesterday which relates

Page 4238

 1     to the instructions on the formation of the Crisis Staffs dated

 2     December 1991.

 3             Let me remind you that we spoke yesterday of the Variant A in the

 4     first degree, item 11, subparagraph 2, which states in what way the --

 5     the units should be replenished with JNA personnel.  So this is, in fact,

 6     the context of my question.

 7             Would this ARK conclusion be in keeping with the positions

 8     expressed in these instructions?

 9        A.   They are parallel in that -- well, no.  Actually, the A and B is

10     talking about sending Serbs to the JNA.  This ARK conclusion is saying

11     that non-Serbs as well should be recruited into the VRS although I would

12     note also in this context numbers 8 and 9 in those conclusions.  Excuse

13     me.  So in that respect, they're both about getting -- mobilising people

14     into the armed forces with different intentions.  But I just think by --

15     to connect this SDS document of 19 December to the ARK in May 1992 when

16     events had far overtaken A and B is difficult.  I don't -- it's hard at

17     this point -- after so much has happened in Bosnia, to -- in those months

18     to connect the two in detail I find difficult.

19        Q.   Do you mean to say, then, that interpreting the conclusion by the

20     ARK Crisis Staff that you're interpreting it as not being in keeping with

21     the instructions issued?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- let me try to see whether I understood the

23     answer well and to see whether we can come to a quick answer to the last

24     question.

25             Do I understand you well that you did not see a direct link

Page 4239

 1     between this paragraph 5 and what was stated in the 19th of December,

 2     which means no a positive link but also that you do not say it's not in

 3     keeping with or -- but that the link is just -- it's so difficult to

 4     establish a direct link that you can't either positively or negatively

 5     say something about it too.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Exactly, sir.  As far as I know, I see no

 7     references in the ARK Crisis Staff documents to Variant A and B to the

 8     19 December instructions.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Not only you do not see any reference but do you see

10     any link in substance.

11             THE WITNESS:  No, other than that their Crisis Staffs are

12     organising the defence the Serbian people.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will be done with

16     this document with the following question:

17        Q.   Is this position of the Autonomous Region of Krajina on

18     mobilisation which was to include other ethnicities in the defence of the

19     peace, was that, in your view, also the position of the republican organs

20     at the time?  Yes or no.

21        A.   The -- it was the formal position, I believe.

22        Q.   Very well.  Now could you comment, please, Article 9 or

23     conclusion number 9 of this same document, which reads, and this was a

24     conclusion of the Crisis Staff of the AR, that:

25             "Reciprocity should be applied in the moving of the population in

Page 4240

 1     the whole territory of the Serb republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 2             How would you comment this, this position on reciprocity?

 3        A.   This conclusion shows that the ARK sees the organisation of the

 4     moving out of the population as one of its tasks.  They want to apply the

 5     principle of reciprocity which I take to mean as many Serbs move into the

 6     RS, so many non-Serbs should move out, so it seems to be preparing for

 7     the moving out of the non-Serb population.  It is not saying we should do

 8     everything we can to keep the non-Serbs in the RS.

 9        Q.   Then, in the context of your last reply, would you please take

10     note of the conclusion of the Crisis Staff of May 20th, 1992,

11     paragraph 1.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honour, let me just

13     say that I was unable to find a translation of this conclusion, and I

14     only have the translation of the conclusion of 18th May, and because this

15     is only one sentence, I'll just read it out to you.

16        Q.   So, Ms. Hanson, it says in paragraph 1 of this conclusion that

17     there is absolutely no reason for the population to move out from the

18     Autonomous Region of Krajina, no matter what ethnicity.

19             Now could we agree that this is in stark contrast with what you

20     have just said a few moments ago?

21        A.   I would say it's in contrast with the conclusion 9 up the page.

22     In a -- on the 18th of May, they are saying, We should move out as many

23     Muslims as Serbs come in.  The next time they say, There is no reason for

24     anyone to move out.  So those two are in contradiction.

25        Q.   Can the Autonomous Region prevent someone who feels insecure and

Page 4241

 1     refuses to accept mobilisation and take part in the war and wish to move

 2     out, can they prevent them from it -- from doing so?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Prevent them from doing what, Mr. Stojanovic?  From

 4     moving out, or from being fearful, or ...

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Well, let me ask you then:  Can they prevent them from taking

 7     this decision to move out for the reasons mentioned above?

 8        A.   Yes, if they wanted to they could arrest people and put them in

 9     camps but it's -- or forcibly mobilisation them.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, can I just understand your

11     question.  I don't know -- it is translated:  Can they prevent them from

12     taking this decision to move out.

13             Now nobody can prevent anybody from taking a decision.  I can

14     take my decision now and keep it to myself and we'll never know that I've

15     decided what I've decided.

16             What actually do you want to ask the witness?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps it is an

18     interpretation issue.  I will repeat my question.

19        Q.   Would it be possible to prevent such individuals who, for the

20     reasons that I've already mentioned, have decided to leave the area where

21     they had lived previously and to prevent them from moving freely?  Would

22     that be possible as all?

23        A.   Yes.  As far as I know, if you have armed forces, you can control

24     the movement of population pretty well.  You could also prevent them by

25     reassuring them that they are safe and taking measures to demonstrate

Page 4242

 1     their security.  Those would be two ways to prevent the movement.

 2        Q.   In your report, you use documents, and I will talk about Zvornik

 3     specifically, which mention the influx of a large number of Serb refugees

 4     into Zvornik.

 5             Now, in your report and during your research, did you establish

 6     that a large number of Serb refugees had actually come to Podrinje?

 7        A.   It may -- those documents that I cite may mention that in

 8     addition to the elements of the document that I cite, but I do not recall

 9     at the moment any documents which mention it.  I'm not saying they don't.

10     It's just not what I was looking at in those documents.

11        Q.   Well, then, let me ask you this:  Did you come across such

12     evidence, and did you assess such documents as exculpatory?

13        A.   I am not at the moment aware of such documents, and I don't --

14     I'd have to see such a document.  But on its own, I don't see it as

15     exculpatory regarding crimes against non-Serbs in Zvornik.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now please pull up in e-court 65 ter 28413.

17     That's a document that you've used, Ms. Hanson, for your report but in a

18     different context.  I would like to refer you to the textual portion of

19     this document, both in B/C/S and in English.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page,

21     please, in both versions.

22             Your Honour, there are three documents here that are connected

23     causily.  This is a request from Drinatrans, a transport company,

24     addressed to the interim government of the Serb republic -- Serb

25     municipality of Zvornik.  They want -- they're requesting payment.  This

Page 4243

 1     is evidence that it has been paid. And now could we see page 3 of the

 2     document which will show us what it was that the interim government made

 3     this payment for.

 4        Q.   Now, here we can see - could we have the English, please, too?  -

 5     in this document that you have analysed, Ms. Hanson, we can see that this

 6     transport company, Drinatrans, on the 4th of July, 1992, transported

 7     along the route mentioned there refugees who were to settle there.  And

 8     then, again, we see the same thing happened on the 15th of July, the same

 9     route, the settlement of refugees.

10             Can you see that?

11        A.   I agree it says settlement, "naseljavanje," but they're taking

12     them from Kozluk to the border with Serbia to the bridge on the Drina.

13     And my understanding is Kozluk was a largely Muslim settlement and my

14     interpretation of these documents is removing Muslims from Kozluk and

15     taking them to Gornji Sepak, and I believe their fate was to wind up in

16     northern Serbia on the borders of Hungary.

17        Q.   And I put to you, Ms. Hanson, that you are completely mistaken,

18     and I put it to you that this is not true and this is why:  It is stated

19     clearly here that this transport is along the Zvornik-Kozluk-Gornji Sepak

20     route, and Gornji Sepak would be the end destination, and this is not a

21     place on the border.  It is not a town that would imply moving out of

22     people --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I am putting a

25     question and I will --

Page 4244

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you differ with the witness just tell her you

 2     differ with her, but now you are telling us what your interpretation is

 3     which is testimony.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will then finish my question.

 5        Q.   Would I be correct if I said that Gornji Sepak was not where you

 6     implied that it was and what you were referring to had already been dealt

 7     with?  Yes or no?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a double question.

 9             Let's start with the first one.  Apparently Mr. Stojanovic

10     challenges that Gornji Sepak is at or close to the border.  Is

11     that [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             THE WITNESS:  I would have to see a map, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So that answer is there.

14             If there's any way that the parties could agree where

15     Gornji Sepak is, unless there are five or six, but that might resolve

16     certain matters.

17             Now the second part of your question, Mr. Stojanovic, which was,

18     and I have to re-read it, and what you were referring to had already been

19     dealt with.

20             What -- it's not entirely clear to me what that is.  But if the

21     witness understands this question, she's invited to answer it.

22             THE WITNESS:  I take him there to be referring to the cleansing

23     of Kozluk, the moving out of the Muslim population of Kozluk.  And I

24     believe a large part of the action had already taken place, but it's

25     never as simple as one day the story is over.  I would have to review

Page 4245

 1     events.  But I stand by my assertion that Kozluk was a largely Muslim

 2     settlement and non-Serbs removed from Kozluk were crossed into Serbia and

 3     wound up, many of them, near the border with Hungary.  The exact timing,

 4     no, I do not recall.

 5             If that had already occurred, then one could read the word,

 6     "naseljavanje," the settlement, as bring other refugees into Kozluk.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This suffices,

 8     Your Honour.  Thank you, Your Honours, and I believe ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Those were all the questions

11     that I had for this witness, Your Honours.  I would to thank the witness.

12     And if you allow me, I would like to tender this document into evidence,

13     because we intend to deal with it further.  This is document 28413,

14     65 ter, and I would also like to tender the Crisis Staff document that I

15     have used, the AP Krajina Crisis Staff, document number 28394.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, first of all, Mr. Stojanovic, I'd like

17     to ask you, you referred to the conclusions of the 20th of May, 1992, for

18     which you had no translation.  You read a line from it.  Could you please

19     identify the document by its 65 ter number, if it has a 65 ter number?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  As I

21     mentioned earlier, that's one single document, and it is document

22     65 ter 28394.  That includes the document from which the line was read

23     out.  That document includes the conclusions both of the 18th and the

24     20th of May.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But part of it not translated, if I understand you

Page 4246

 1     well?

 2             Could we have 28394 on the screen.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, document 28314 was admitted as

 4     Exhibit P57, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It was 314 -- or 394; I apologise, if I pronounced

 6     not clearly.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you can see the

 8     document now in the B/C/S version.  And on the following page of the

 9     B/C/S version, you can see that these are conclusions of 18 September.

10     They go on to the following page.  And then at the bottom you can see ...

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking now at the original.  We have -- under

12     number 12 I think we have a decision dated the 18th of May, as we can see

13     on the second page of this document.  We have it now.

14             And then we have the next document on this same second page of

15     65 ter 28394 is a decision or is at least a document dated the

16     20th of May.  What we also see is that that document is not translated.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we understand that you read this part of the

19     document, the B/C/S version --

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

21     It's from that same document, document 28394.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And then -- so you read paragraph 1 in Cyrillic.

23             Could you please slowly read that one again so that we now at

24     least can follow what you are -- could you read it in your own language.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I did not hear

Page 4247

 1     the interpretation and I was unable to follow you.  But I will try to

 2     answer.  This same number, the same 65 ter number, is B/C/S 28394, the

 3     conclusion dated 18th May and the 20th of May.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Or ... yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you were asked by the

 6     Presiding Judge to read that portion again into the transcript in your

 7     language.  The paragraph 1 of the non-translated document so that we have

 8     a clear reference.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank for that.  I will read out

10     the conclusion of the Autonomous Region of Krajina dated the 20th of May,

11     1992, published in the Official Gazette, and paragraph 1 reads as

12     follows:

13             "There are no reasons whatsoever for the population of any

14     ethnicity to move out from the area of the Autonomous Region of Krajina."

15             JUDGE ORIE:  What now happens again is that we're relying on

16     interpreters for translation which is not what we're supposed to do. It's

17     on the record.  I think it is clear who is also going to take care of

18     that also.  Number 13 in this document of which we just read - that is

19     the 20th of May decision or conclusion - that it will be translated.

20             Ms. Bibles, are you -- you have selected apparently a portion of

21     this document when it was translated.  Could you take care that the whole

22     of the document, all the text included in it, will be translated.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And then we need the new translation to be uploaded.

25     The original is complete already.  28394 will be marked for -- no, is in

Page 4248

 1     evidence at -- not yet, no.  It is not yet in evidence.  It will be

 2     marked for identification, Madam Registrar, this document containing both

 3     conclusions of the 18th of May and of the 20th of May receives number ...

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28394 receives number D81, MFI'd,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It's MFI'd.  And once the full translation is there,

 7     we'll decide on admission.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, there was another matter remaining from

 9     yesterday, which was 65 ter 6408.  That was a document that was used but

10     was not sought to be admitted, and it contains a list of members of the

11     Crisis Staff of Sanski Most, including, for example, Mr. Basara and the

12     other one, Mr. --

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: Anicic.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Anicic, yes.  Do you want to tender

15     that [Overlapping speakers] ... if the Chamber would -- if the Chamber

16     would invite you to tender it, would you then do it so as not to make it

17     a Chamber exhibit?

18             Ms. Bibles.

19             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, this actually highlights one of the

20     issues we wanted to raise regarding the guidance with respect to experts

21     and exhibits.  It's a technical matter.  If an exhibit has been cited in

22     an expert report, we stand behind tendering all of those documents, and

23     the fact -- simply the fact that it is mentioned in expert report will

24     advise the Chamber means we would tender it, if not for the Chamber's

25     guidance perhaps.

Page 4249

 1             So conceptually all of these exhibits are actually Prosecution

 2     exhibits; however, given the guidance we're not tendering them

 3     affirmatively, and we're recognising the process that they're becoming

 4     admitted throughout cross-examinations and throughout the testimony of

 5     the experts.

 6             As a result, what we're seeing with Ms. Hanson is that many

 7     exhibits that are actually Prosecution exhibits are coming in now with D

 8     numbers or putting the Chamber in the position of having to make it a

 9     Chamber exhibit.

10             What we would recommend or what we would suggest to the Court is

11     that any exhibit that has been mentioned in a Prosecution expert report

12     continue to be maintained or -- certainly we want all of those exhibits

13     in, but that we go ahead and give them a P number regardless of who

14     brings the exhibit in so that we don't have confusion down the road about

15     how what what were originally Prosecution exhibits came before the

16     Chamber.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll consider that.  But let's first -- I do see

18     your point.  Most important and that may be relevant for the Defence to

19     know, that if you refer to documents which are underlying documents for

20     an expert report that, as the Chamber has suggested a couple of times now

21     already, that if questions are put to a witness in relation to those

22     reports or to an expert witness that those specific documents which have

23     gained the attention of the parties and of the Chamber should be tendered

24     as exhibits.

25             Now whether that should be D exhibits or P exhibits, we'll

Page 4250

 1     further consider that, although for the Chamber, exhibits are exhibits,

 2     whoever has presented them.

 3             So, therefore, Mr. Stojanovic, 65 ter 6408, you said there was no

 4     need for you to tender it.  But if the Chamber would invite you to tender

 5     it, would you do it?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly.  Yes, I would,

 7     Your Honour.  I would be prepared to do so.

 8             JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.  And if the Prosecution would prefer to

 9     make them P exhibits, would you mind?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I wouldn't mind.  On the

11     contrary, I accept that.  I accept that with pleasure because that

12     document serves -- well, it's really an exception.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it was primarily presented by the Prosecution

14     as underlying material for the -- for the evidence of this witness.

15             Madam Registrar, 65 ter 6408 would receive what P number?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P404, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And P404 is admitted into evidence.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The next one on my list is 65 ter 28413.  It's a bit

20     of a similar story, that it was originally presented as underlying

21     material for Ms. Hanson's report.  The Defence has addressed the

22     document.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, would you mind if it would be admitted into

24     evidence as a P Exhibit?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I wouldn't

Page 4251

 1     mind.  But if the Prosecution does not seek to do this, then I would be

 2     prepared to have it as a D document.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             Ms. Hanson [sic], I understood from your previous observations

 5     that the Prosecution -- any document underlying an expert report

 6     addressed -- addressed by the Defence that you'd like to have it in

 7     evidence.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  That's accurate, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Bibles, I should have said.

10             Then, Madam Registrar, 65 ter 28413.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P405, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             I'll further discussion with my colleagues whether the way of

14     introducing these documents into evidence, that is, presented as

15     underlying material but not tendered as documents themselves, then

16     addressed by the Defence that that would trigger them to be tendered by

17     the Prosecution, specifically that document in evidence.  If there's any

18     document not underlying the report, then they would still become

19     D exhibits if the witness is questioned -- examined on other documents.

20             We'll consider during the break whether what I develop more or

21     less as a system whether that -- whether that obtains the agreement of my

22     colleagues.

23             Then, first of all, Ms. Hanson, we are at a break.  We'll start

24     with re-examination after the break.  Could you please escort -- could

25     the please follow the usher.

Page 4252

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, you wanted to raise a matter.  Have we

 3     dealt with it?  Was it more or less the matter we discussed over the last

 4     five to seven minutes?

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, that was the first issue.

 6             The second issue may be a means by which we can narrow the time

 7     required for re-examination, and what I would like to do after the break

 8     would be appropriate -- would be to outline those areas where the Defence

 9     has challenged Ms. Hanson's opinion where she has addressed that, but we

10     simply need to introduce those documents which -- many of which she has

11     referred to in her testimony already.  Where we don't need additional

12     testimony from her, I would like to address those areas with the Chamber,

13     and if we can admit those -- or if we can tender those documents in

14     advance of her testimony, that would reduce the amount of time required

15     to go through those documents or to address them with her on the stand.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So what you propose is that documents addressed

17     during cross-examination which are underlying the report of Ms. Hanson,

18     and where you have no further questions but where you consider it

19     relevant for us to look at those documents, that you list them --

20             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that they are admitted and that no further

22     questions are asked about them.

23             Now, have you given a list of the documents that you would like

24     to deal with in this way to the Defence?

25             MS. BIBLES:  I have not had a chance to do that, Your Honour.  I

Page 4253

 1     have just added to the list.  I can do that certainly over the break.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  How long is that list, approximately?

 3             MS. BIBLES:  I have four categories.  My math skills in the

 4     courtroom seem to fail me, so I don't want to tender a number but I would

 5     say it's less than 50.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Less than 50.  And they have all been addressed or

 7     has the subject matter been addressed?

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Ms. Hanson's opinion with respect to these

 9     particular areas have been challenged, and she has referred in her

10     testimony to many of these documents.  For many of these we simply want

11     to go ahead and tender them.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, could you also carefully look at your list

13     whether there really needs to be 50 or whether there are some core

14     documents which would do.  The mere fact that something is challenged in

15     itself and, of course, also depends on how thoroughly that's done, and

16     whether Ms. Hanson has answered questions in such a way that you would

17     say that even without these underlying documents, the evidence is clear

18     and remains clear.

19             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I've actually just counted, and I

20     unless I have miscounted, I believe there's 18 documents.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  18 documents.  That is already a redaction of more

22     than 60 per cent.

23             We'll take a break.  We'll resume at five minutes to 11.00, then

24     we will let you know whether we can proceed the way you suggest.

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

Page 4254

 1                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like first to address the parties and give

 3     some guidance.

 4             While -- I'll not give guidance but I'll tell you what the

 5     Chamber is inclined to do and then we'll hear from the Defence because

 6     we're heard from the Prosecution their position, but we'll then hear from

 7     the Defence whether there's any objection to that.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber is inclined to give the following

10     guidance that, as a rule, underlying documents to expert reports used in

11     cross-examination, as a rule, should be tendered but should be tendered

12     as a document of the party that called the expert because it's the

13     underlying material in this case for the Prosecution expert report and,

14     therefore, it triggers an exception to the bar, the bar to tender all of

15     the underlying documents, which we would try to avoid.

16             So, in this case, dealt with by the Defence.  Defence will tender

17     it but it will receive a P number.

18             Then, as far as challenges are concerned without the documents

19     specifically used, the Prosecution should have a possibility then to

20     tender documents directly related to the subject matter challenged by the

21     Defence.

22             Now what we would like to hear then from the Prosecution is,

23     first, a specification area of the area challenged, what's the subject

24     matter to which the challenge relates, but very briefly in one or two

25     words, and then that the Prosecution lists the relevant documents it

Page 4255

 1     would tender in that context.

 2             Now, to the extend if we have already lengthy reports and if

 3     cross-examination takes a longer time, then if it would be prepared in

 4     writing, that would of course even be better, but if not, for example,

 5     for the the 18 documents, just specify the areas - I understand four

 6     areas - list the specific documents the Prosecution would like to tender.

 7             That is what the Chamber suggests as a way to proceed where we

 8     have invited the parties not to tender all the underlying documents.

 9             Mr. Stojanovic, any objections to this way of proceeding?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Chamber gives guidance to the parties that

12     we should proceed as I just explained to you.

13             Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps just to add that, of course, the Chamber

16     always expects the Prosecution to be very selective in what is really

17     needed and what is perhaps related, but not the core of the issue.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, are you ready to re-examine the witness?

20             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MS. BIBLES:  Actually I will lead off with the documents.  The

23     Defence was agreeable to meeting over the break.  We have been able to

24     agree to, I believe, it's three of the categories.  And if I could, I

25     would lead off with those.

Page 4256

 1             With respect to the December instructions which was the subject

 2     of a great deal of cross-examination and even questioning by the

 3     Trial Chamber at the end of yesterday and the subsequent instructions

 4     leading up to the 31st of May, we would tender 65 ter 02349.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we deal immediately with them.

 6             Madam Registrar, 02349.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P405, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  405 is admitted into evidence.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  405 was already assigned.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  406, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  P406 is admitted into evidence.

12             MS. BIBLES:  Should I proceed, Your Honour?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please, next one.

14             MS. BIBLES:  65 ter 02351.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Receives, Madam Registrar, number ...

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P407, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             MS. BIBLES:  65 ter 03010.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Receives number ...

20             THE REGISTRAR:  P408, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

22             Next one.

23             MS. BIBLES:  65 ter 02487.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Receives number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  P409, Your Honours ...

Page 4257

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  65 ter 02488.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Receives number ...

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  P410, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P410 is admitted.

 6             MS. BIBLES:  With respect to the area of War Presidencies in

 7     existence prior to June of 1992, 65 ter 06906.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P411, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P411 is admitted.

11             MS. BIBLES:  65 ter 03235.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P412, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

15             MS. BIBLES:  65 ter 03415.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  P413, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

19             MS. BIBLES:  65 ter 08332.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P414, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

23             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honours, Mr. Stojanovic asked for some

24     additional time to evaluate the remaining documents which address the

25     challenge and the issue of Crisis Staff controlling the movements of

Page 4258

 1     non-Serb populations.  The remainder of these documents, what I would

 2     suggest is that we file a very brief bar table motion which would allow

 3     the Defence time to respond to those and perhaps we could resolve that

 4     issue quickly.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MS. BIBLES:  And that's nine documents, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll not decide on them yet, but could you give us

 9     an indication as what numbers you would then adopt in such a bar table

10     motion.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             65 ter 07213.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MS. BIBLES:  65 ter 05980.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MS. BIBLES:  65 ter 08028; 65 ter 06408.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bibles, that is already P404.

18             MS. BIBLES:  I apologise.  You're quite right.

19             65 ter 16029.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MS. BIBLES:  65 ter 02625; 65 ter 03687; 65 ter 11311; and,

22     finally, 65 ter 03080.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  So we'll receive a bar table motion for

24     those last eight documents.  And then, Mr. Stojanovic, we'll receive your

25     response and see whether you'd like to add one or more.

Page 4259

 1             Now, preferably, this exercise should be done when the witness is

 2     still in court.  Now, for Ms. Hanson it may not be a major problem to --

 3     if there's any need at any later stage to recall her that -- to do that.

 4     But preferably these matters should be settled before the witness is

 5     excused, released.

 6             Any further questions?

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I have no questions on re-examination,

 8     and I would finally tender Ms. Hanson's report, P379.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Objections?  Any further objections apart from

10     the ones already submitted in writing.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then P379 is admitted into evidence.

13             May I take it, Mr. Stojanovic, that there was no real

14     re-examination, that it is has not triggered any need to further examine

15     the witness?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's what the Rules say, and I

17     will abide by them.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Which means that this -- but I'm just looking at my colleagues.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hanson, this then concludes your testimony in

22     this Court.  I would first like to thank you very much for coming to the

23     court.  I often add the long way to the court.  That might be different

24     in your situation, but we appreciate equally your presence in court and

25     for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties

Page 4260

 1     and by the Bench.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It is always a pleasure to

 3     appear before you.  May I ask you just to clarify my position now

 4     regarding my relations with the Prosecution team, If there's a

 5     possibility I could be recalled?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The only remaining matter is if there is any dispute

 7     about the few remaining documents.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, if there would be any problem, would you be able

 9     to inform the Chamber not later than by close of business on this Friday?

10     Or are you already in a position to say that under the present

11     circumstances ... yes.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Exceptionally, we are in a very specific

14     situation where the witness is about to leave the court.  So, therefore,

15     exceptionally, we allow you to consult with Mr. Mladic.  Mr. Mladic

16     should have his voice at such a level that we couldn't even hear him.  He

17     should whisper in your ears, Mr. Stojanovic.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as soon as we

21     receive the filing, we will respond.  I don't think it will require any

22     additional time, save to see if the documents are on the 65 ter list.

23     And I believe that the response will be filed before Friday.

24             As for Ms. Hanson's question, I know what her professional duties

25     are, and we do not mind that she continues her communication.

Page 4261

 1             The only thing is should there any need arise for me to put

 2     additional questions to you concerning the documents that you used for

 3     your report, I will perhaps kindly ask you to return so that I may put

 4     these questions to you.  I thank you for the work you've done and for the

 5     answers you've given on my own behalf and on behalf of Mr. Mladic.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This totally congrues with the opinion of the

 7     Chamber, that you are excused and therefore are free to -- to communicate

 8     with whomever, perhaps preferably not to discuss in detail your testimony

 9     but to do your work and to have the normal communications.  That's one.

10             Second, if at any point in time, at the request of the Defence,

11     or if there would be any need to recall you, then, of course, once such a

12     message would reach you - and it is not just the Defence, but the Defence

13     of course would first have to ask leave to re-call, we would decide on

14     that - but if that would ever happen then on from that moment, you are

15     instructed to stop, then, to communicate in the usual way with your

16     colleagues.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  I understand.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just to make clear that the Prosecution

20     will undertake to inform Ms. Hanson about that at the earliest

21     opportunity should that happen, and also to give the undertaking that

22     there is no reason that I can think of that we would need to speak with

23     her about the substance of her report or her testimony, so we will not be

24     doing that in any event.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That is appreciated.

Page 4262

 1             Then this concludes your testimony.  Safe journey home.  It's

 2     also perhaps a very short journey, but, nevertheless, please come home

 3     well.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking outside permitted consultations.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  There are a few matters which have to be dealt with

 8     before we start with the next witness.  And who will take the -- who will

 9     examine the next witness, Mr. Groome?

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the next witness will be examined by

11     Ms. Julia Lee, and I take this opportunity to introduce her to the Court.

12     We have arranged it so we only need a few moments to make the switch.

13     And there's no -- I think it's just a matter of seconds, Your Honour, so

14     there is no need to rise if you don't wish to.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  There are a few matters which have to be dealt with

16     before we could continue with the next witness.

17             First, the Prosecution has requested leave to reply to the

18     Defence response on the Prosecution's Rule 92 ter motion in relation to

19     the next witness without any protective measures.

20             MS. LEE:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So, therefore, the next witness, Mr. Kapetanovic,

22     leave is granted.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, it may be helpful if I am excused from

24     the courtroom and let Ms. Lee to step forward.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, if you stay there, there is no room for

Page 4263

 1     Ms. Lee.

 2             Then we also have to decide on the Prosecution's request to add

 3     65 ter 28448.  That's a video which the Prosecution would like to use

 4     with Witness Kapetanovic.  That request is granted.  The Chamber has

 5     considered the objections raised by the Defence.  But the Chamber adds

 6     that if a further examination of that video would show -- would shed a

 7     new light on that video or on the evidence of the witness, then, of

 8     course, the Defence always is in a position to ask for a recall of that

 9     witness, of course, upon good cause shown.

10             And, therefore, also, the request for a further delay of the

11     proceedings is denied.

12             Ms. Lee, are there any -- yes.  There's one short matter which I

13     would like to raise.  And perhaps Mr. Groome you should listen carefully.

14             There is a request for protective measures for Witness RM045.

15     Now that witness was scheduled to appear pretty soon.  Before we instruct

16     the Defence to respond on very short notice, we would like to know

17     whether the scheduling of this witness is still as it was before.

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm not sure if you have had sight of

19     it already but there was a development in this particularly witness.

20     Last evening I sent an e-mail to the Defence and to Chamber's staff so at

21     the moment I would say that we'd suggest that we operate on the basis

22     that the witness would not be available this Friday but in the position

23     originally identified in the 14th week.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that triggered my question, as a matter of

25     fact, because under those circumstances we will not invite the Defence to

Page 4264

 1     an expedited response.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  When we do not invite you to an expedited response,

 4     Mr. Stojanovic, that doesn't mean that if would you have a response or

 5     possibly a short oral response that we would -- we'd like to receive it

 6     anyhow.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We are drafting the response.

 8     My colleague, Branko, deals with the witness, and we will file a written

 9     response soon rather than me now giving you a more generalised answer.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.  I do understand that we have a

11     technical problem with a microphone.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that all systems have to be

15     restarted which takes two minutes.  Perhaps during these next two

16     minutes, the next witness could be brought into the courtroom.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18                           [The witness entered court]

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Kapetanovic.  Can you hear me in a

21     language you understand?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Apologies for the technical problem we had before we

24     start.

25             Mr. Kapetanovic, before you give evidence, the Rules require that

Page 4265

 1     you make a solemn declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you

 2     by the usher. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration, and

 3     stand.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  MUHAMED KAPETANOVIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kapetanovic.  Please be seated.

 9             Mr. Kapetanovic, you will first be examined by Ms. Lee.  Ms. Lee

10     is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find her to your right.

11             You may proceed, Ms. Lee.

12             MS. LEE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             Before I begin my examination, Your Honour, I would like to refer

14     to Your Honours to adjudicated facts related to this witness's testimony.

15     And they are adjudicated facts 2426 to 2428 and 2431 to 2434.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MS. LEE:  Great.

18                           Examination by Ms. Lee:

19        Q.   Good morning.  Could you please state your full name and your

20     date of birth for the record.

21        A.   Muhamed Kapetanovic, 24 March 1984.

22        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, do you recall providing a written statement to

23     the Office of the Prosecutor on or about the 12th of February, 2000?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. LEE:  Could I ask the Court Officer to please display 65 ter

Page 4266

 1     28447 on our screens.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, on the screen before you, can I ask that you

 3     look at the first page of the English version of the statement.  Do you

 4     recognise your signature at the bottom of the page?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6             MS. LEE:  Now, can I ask that we go to page 4 in e-court of the

 7     English version of the -- of the written statement.  Sorry, it's the

 8     page 4 of the English version of the witness statement.  It's page 4 in

 9     e-court of the English version.

10        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, do you recognise your signature on that page?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   And how old were you when you gave this statement?

13        A.   Well, 16.

14        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to read and review this statement

15     in preparation for your appearance here today?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   I understand that you made some corrections and clarifications to

18     the statement after reviewing it for the preparation of your testimony.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And these corrections are in paragraph 1 of both statements.

21     It's e-court number -- e-court page 1 -- 2 for the English version.

22             You were ten years old.  It states in paragraph 1 that you were

23     10 years old but it should be nine years old?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And when you say that -- in paragraph 2, when you say that you

Page 4267

 1     lived in an area across from the TV station, you didn't mean literally

 2     across from the TV station.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And in paragraph 4 of the statement, when you say that you went

 5     to wooded hills near the front lines with your father, you didn't

 6     actually go near the front lines but that your perception, as a child,

 7     made you believe that the front lines appeared to be closer than they

 8     actually were.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And in paragraph 7, you say -- when you say the shrapnel went

11     through, it should be that the shrapnel went through your left hand and

12     your right cheek?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And finally in paragraph 9 of the statement where you mention the

15     other side of the building from a sort of military headquarters, the

16     building was not actually directly behind this headquarter.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Okay.  And now other than the corrections made to the statement,

19     if you were asked today the same questions that you were asked when

20     you -- when you gave this statement, would you give the same answers and

21     provide the same information, in substance?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm

24     the truthfulness and the accuracy of the statement?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4268

 1             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, the Prosecution would like to tender this

 2     witness's -- this witness statement dated February 12, 2000, with

 3     paragraphs hand numbered by the Office of the Prosecutor bearing

 4     65 ter 28447 as the next public exhibit.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I received a sign by Mr. Stojanovic that there is no

 6     objection.

 7             Madam Registrar.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28447 becomes Exhibit P415,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P415 is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, I would now summarise this witness's

14     written evidence for the record.

15             Muhamed Kapetanovic is a witness to scheduled shelling incident

16     G6 which occurred on the 22nd January, 1994.  The witness was nine years

17     old and living in a 16-storey apartment building in Sarajevo.  On the

18     date of the incident, at around noon, the witness had gone outside to

19     play in the snow with his -- with four of his friends.  As they were

20     sledding in front of their apartment building, they heard a sound of a

21     shell exploding nearby and began running towards their building.  A shell

22     landed behind them which injured Mr. Kapetanovic and two of his friends.

23     One of Mr. Kapetanovic's friends was decapitated by the shell.

24             The witness was injured on his right cheek, his left leg and left

25     hand as a result of the shelling.  He was taken to Dobrinja hospital with

Page 4269

 1     his father, where he received first aid care.  He was subsequently taken

 2     to Kosevo hospital where he spent one and a half months for further

 3     treatment.  Following this incident, the witness spent two years in Italy

 4     receiving further medical treatment as a result of his injures from the

 5     shelling, including seven operations.

 6             This concludes my summary for the witness's written evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Lee.  If you would have further

 8     questions, you may proceed.

 9             MS. LEE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic in which neighbourhood in Sarajevo did you live

11     in 1994?

12        A.   Alipasino Polje.

13        Q.   And was the name of your street?

14        A.   Cetinska, number 2.

15        Q.   And do you currently live in the same neighbourhood?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you still live in the same apartment?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And has the street name changed since January of 1994?

20        A.   Yes.  It has been renamed into Getes Street.

21        Q.   And do you know when this name was changed?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Now, do you know a street called Clara Zetkin Street?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And where is Clara Zetkin Street located in relation to Cetinska

Page 4270

 1     Street?

 2        A.   In the immediate vicinity.

 3        Q.   And when you say "in the immediate vicinity," do you mean that

 4     there is an intersection or -- can you elaborate on what you meant by

 5     "the immediate vicinity?"

 6        A.   Well, Cetinska Street, the part of the neighbourhood where I

 7     live, is in that general area.  Clara Zetkin Street and Cetinska street

 8     start roughly on the same spot but they diverge into opposite directions.

 9        Q.   So if you are on Cetinska Street walking towards -- are you also

10     on Clara Zetkin Street?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  So then am I correct to understand that Cetinska Street is

13     a continuation of Clara Zetkin Street?  It's the same street that turns

14     into a different name.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And has Clara Zetkin Street also changed its name since

17     January of 1994?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What is it called today?

20        A.   Bosanska Street.

21             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, for your reference I refer you to page 32

22     of the hard copy of Exhibit 3, and it's page 37 in e-court.  And this is

23     a -- sorry, the court binder.  It is a map of the neighbourhood

24     containing both Gotijeva [phoen] Street and Bosanka Street that the

25     witness has just mentioned.  And because of time constraint, I will not

Page 4271

 1     go to that map.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, I'm now going to show you a 360-degree

 3     photograph which was taken in 2002, and after showing you this

 4     photograph, I will ask you some questions.

 5             MS. LEE:  And, Your Honour, Ms. Stewart will now bring

 6     65 ter 10275B to our screens.  It's a quick time video illustrating a

 7     360-degree panoramic ...

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MS. LEE:

10        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, do you recognise the street and its surrounding?

11        A.   I do.

12        Q.   And the street that we're looking at now, what is the name of the

13     street shown in this photo?

14        A.   Cetinska.

15        Q.   And if you were standing on the street facing the green shed

16     here, which direction would you be facing?

17        A.   The north.

18        Q.   Okay.  And now, looking at this street and its surrounding, how

19     does it compare to the way you remembered it in January of 1994?

20        A.   I don't understand the question.

21        Q.   Do -- do the street, the buildings around it, were these

22     buildings already existent in January of 1994?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And do you see any substantive change in the neighbourhood from

25     what you've seen in this panoramic video compared to the way you had

Page 4272

 1     remembered this neighbourhood in January of 1994?

 2        A.   In the main, everything is the same.  Except for the green house,

 3     I'm not sure that it was there before the war.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And, now, I'll take you back to January of 1994 during the

 5     war.  Did you go out to play often with your friends?

 6        A.   Whenever it was calm, we would go out.

 7        Q.   And when you say "calm," what do you mean?

 8        A.   There was no shelling.

 9        Q.   Now, in paragraph 5 of your statement, you say that you and your

10     friends were sledding on a little slope in front of your building.  Now,

11     when you look at this green shed on this picture, can you remember in

12     relation to that building where you were playing with your friends on

13     January 22nd, 1994?

14        A.   Yes.  I was close to the green house, although I don't remember

15     if the house was there at the time at all.

16        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember the names of the friends that you were

17     playing with that day?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And can you spell their names for the record.

20        A.   Danijel Juranic, Admir Ahmethodzic and Elvir Ahmethodzic.

21        Q.   And at paragraph 6 of your statement, when you state that you

22     heard a loud explosion and you started to run, do you remember how many

23     explosions you heard before you began to run?

24        A.   One or two.  I can't remember exactly.

25        Q.   And then what happened?

Page 4273

 1        A.   We heard an explosions and started running in the direction of

 2     our entrance way.  One shell landed behind us.  Danijel Juranic was hit,

 3     whereas Admir, Elvir and I were seriously injured.

 4        Q.   And when said Danijel was hit, did you see him get hit?

 5        A.   Yes.  He was right behind me.  And as I turned around I saw that

 6     his head had been severed from the body by shrapnel.

 7        Q.   And do you know how old Danijel was at the time?

 8        A.   He was my senior by one or two years.  So he may have been 10 or

 9     11.

10        Q.   And you mentioned earlier that Admir and Elvir were also injured.

11     Do you know how old they were?

12        A.   Elvir was the oldest among us.  I think he was roughly four years

13     older than me.  And Admir, roughly two years older than me.

14        Q.   So, now you're running, you're all running towards the building,

15     and you fall on the ground.  Do you remember what happened next?

16        A.   I fell.  I tried to get up.  I couldn't.  I fell to the ground

17     again and saw that my leg was injured.  As I fell down, I turned around

18     and saw Danijel lying headless.  My father arrived at that point.  Some

19     persons came with a car and picked us up, the three of us, in a group who

20     were injured there.  I myself was taken to the Dobrinja hospital.

21             MS. LEE:  At this point, Your Honour, I would like to tender this

22     360-degree photograph bearing 65 ter 10275B as the next public exhibit.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Ms. Lee, you asked the witness a

24     few questions about a specific portion of this 360-degree panoramic video

25     and I'd like to put on the record where we looked at when you asked these

Page 4274

 1     questions.  The questions you asked after, where the transcript says

 2     "video-clip played," we are then looking at that portion of the video

 3     which shows a street, and to the left a little white van at a distance,

 4     some people standing before it, and on the right, a person walking on the

 5     pavement, more or less behind what seems to be a traffic sign, and in the

 6     back of it, a light green structure with a brown belt on it.  That was

 7     the portion we looked at when you asked these questions.

 8             MS. LEE:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's hereby put on the record.  Any objections

10     against admission?  Yes.  But let's first deal with the --

11     Mr. Stojanovic, any objection against admission of the video?

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as a matter of

13     principle I do not, but you think it would be fair for the transcript to

14     say when this photo was taken, especially in view of what the witness has

15     said.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, first of all, admission, no objections.

17             Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10275B becomes Exhibit P416,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

21             Any information as to when the photograph was taken, Ms. Lee?

22             MS. LEE:  Yes.  I believe I have prefaced to the witness before

23     playing that and this photograph was taken in 2002.  The exact date is

24     28th of February, 2002.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that.

Page 4275

 1             Judge Moloto has a question for you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Kapetanovic, good morning.

 3             I just want to ask one question.  Are you able, looking at this

 4     picture, to show us the building which houses your apartment?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The only thing that shows is

 6     the grey building in the upper right corner.  That's number 5.  And the

 7     entrance to where our apartment is, is behind this.

 8             MS. LEE:  Your --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             MS. LEE:  Your Honour, can I play -- can I show him the entire

11     360 and perhaps the witness could point out whether or not he recognises

12     his apartment building.  Because right now we're only looking at one

13     clip.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If you move it slightly, I take it then, to the

15     right.  And let's do it in steps of 45 degrees approximately.

16             MS. LEE:  And also for your information, Your Honour, I am --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  This is approximately 45 degrees, I would say, yes.

18             MS. LEE:  I will also be tendering still images of this panoramic

19     photo which I will be dealing very shortly.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, now looking at this picture again,

21     could you further explain your previous answer.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have to move -- pan out a little

23     further.  This is the building where I live, but not the right entrance.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We are now looking at a picture -- a part of the

25     picture where the word "foto" on the building is to the very right.

Page 4276

 1     We'll now pan further for another 45 degrees.

 2             Could we stop here.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now we see entrance number 3, and

 4     our apartment is at the next entrance, number 2.  So we have to rotate a

 5     bit further.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  What we looked at is now the building central in the

 7     picture where the word "foto" still appears, approximately 90 degrees,

 8     which would mean east, direction east, compared to where we started with

 9     north.

10             Could we pan further another 45 degrees.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's 45 degrees approximately.  A little bit

13     beyond that.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now you can see our entrance,

15     approximately where the man walking on the pavement can be seen.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Please proceed, Ms. Lee.

18             MS. LEE:

19        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, were you shown still pictures of this

20     360-photograph in preparation of your testimony today?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, could I please ask the Court Officer to

23     bring 65 ter 10275A to our screens and these are the three still images

24     taken from P416.

25             And could I also please have the usher's assistance in setting up

Page 4277

 1     the smart monitor so that the witness could mark on these images in red.

 2             Your Honours, I will be asking the witness to make several

 3     markings.  Would this time be more appropriate to take a break or should

 4     we --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could you inform us as to how much time you

 6     would still need.

 7             MS. LEE:  I would need about 15 to 20 minutes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because your initial assessment was --

 9             MS. LEE:  45 minutes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  45 minutes.  Okay, I think it would be better to

11     take a break first.

12             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

13             We take a short break, Mr. Kapetanovic, and then we'd like to see

14     you back.  Would you please follow the usher.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes past

17     12.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait for the witness to appear, Ms. Lee.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Lee, you may proceed with your examination.

25             MS. LEE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 4278

 1             Is the Smart monitor on for the witness marking in red?

 2        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, can I ask that you not make any markings until

 3     you have finished listening to my question and also until I ask you to

 4     mark the pictures.

 5        A.   Very well.

 6             MS. LEE:  Can we go to e-court page 1.

 7        Q.   Looking at this picture, can you tell us where the shell that had

 8     injured you and your friends fell?

 9        A.   This photo is taken, actually, from the spot where the shell

10     landed.

11        Q.   Now, can you see on this picture the location where you and your

12     friends were sledding that day?

13        A.   Yes, I can.

14        Q.   Please mark it with an X and put number 1 beside it.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Could you indicate with an arrow the direction toward which you

17     and your friends were running after the explosion?

18        A.   Yes, I can.  We were running towards the entrance to our

19     apartment building.

20             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, I would like it tender this picture as

21     marked by the witness as the next public exhibit.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10275A, as marked by the witness,

24     becomes Exhibit P417, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  The witness used a

Page 4279

 1     circle rather than an X to make his first marking.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. LEE:  Can we please go to page 2 in e-court.

 4        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, do you see your building in this picture?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can you mark it with an X and put number 2 beside it.

 7        A.   The entrance itself is not shown in this picture.  This is

 8     entrance number 3.

 9        Q.   Okay.  But you see your building?

10        A.   Yes, yes, I see it.

11        Q.   And can you mark your building.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And put number 2 beside it?

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Can you see on this picture the location where you were thrown to

16     the ground after the shelling?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Please mark it with an X and put number 3 beside it.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Do you see the location where you saw Danijel's body after the

21     explosion?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   I'd like you to put an X and put number 4 beside it.

24        A.   Danijel was right behind me, here.

25        Q.   And could you also indicate with an arrow the direction towards

Page 4280

 1     which you and your friends were running after hearing the loud explosion.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this picture as

 4     marked by the witness as the next public exhibit.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P418, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we understand that these -- this -- this is

10     the -- this was the second page of the 65 ter number you indicated at the

11     beginning.

12             MS. LEE:  Yes, it was.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And it now receives a separate exhibit number.

14             MS. LEE:  Exhibit number.  Because it has different markings,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

17             MS. LEE:  Can we now go to page three in e-court of the same

18     65 ter number.

19        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, can you see -- first of all, what street are we

20     on here?

21        A.   Cetinska Street.

22        Q.   And can you see Clara Zetkin Street on this picture?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now can you draw a line where Cetinska Street ends and where

25     Clara Zetkin Street begins?

Page 4281

 1        A.   Yes.  Approximately about here is where Cetinska ends, and then

 2     Clara Zetkin begins.  And towards us, that's where Cetinska Street is.

 3        Q.   So now I see that you made an arrow and that's towards Clara

 4     Zetkin Street.  That would be -- where the arrow is, that you would be on

 5     Clara Zetkin Street there?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you -- I apologise.  Can you put a K beside it, beside the

 8     arrow.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Can you see on this picture the location where you fell on the

11     ground?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Please put an X on it and put number 5 beside it.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And can you see where Admir fell after the explosion?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   I would like to -- I apologise.  I would like you to put an X and

18     put number 6 beside it.

19        A.   [Marks]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Lee, the Chamber wonders whether it is really

21     necessary on the second photograph where we see more or less the same to

22     mark again what -- the whole marking, of course, the relevance of that is

23     already subject to some doubt, but in view of the adjudicated facts.  But

24     then to have it marked on two photographs -- okay.  But let's proceed --

25             MS. LEE:  Yes, that was my last marking, Your Honour.

Page 4282

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That was your last marking.

 2             Then, Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Page 3 of document 10275A as marked by witness

 4     becomes Exhibit P419, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. LEE:

 8        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, do you know how many people were injured or

 9     killed by the shelling on the 22nd of January, 1994, along with you and

10     your friends.

11        A.   Six children were killed.  There were three who were wounded in

12     my group, and that is in Cetinska Street; whereas in Clara Zetkin, I'm

13     not exactly sure about the number of boys who were injured.

14        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, in paragraph 9 of your statement, you say that

15     the spot where you and your friends were sledding was on the other side

16     of the building from some sort of military headquarters.  Could you tell

17     us who you believed occupied this sort of military headquarters?

18        A.   As far as I know, their name was Kulin Ban.

19             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, in reliance of adjudicated fact 2434, I

20     will move on from this issue.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MS. LEE:

23        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, I will now play a video of a news broad from the

24     22nd of January, 1994.  After playing this video I will have some

25     specific questions for you.

Page 4283

 1             MS. LEE:  Your Honour, Ms. Stewart will now play the video-clip

 2     bearing 65 ter 28448, using Sanction.

 3             Your Honour, I take it that the protocol is to play the video

 4     twice.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you want to rely on the text, then it

 6     should be played twice.

 7             MS. LEE:  And the transcripts have been provided to the booths.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Before it will be played again, one second, Ms. Lee.

10             Mr. Kapetanovic, I can imagine that it's not easy for you to look

11     at these pictures.  Now, for very technical reasons, we have to play it

12     again, but if you would prefer not to see it for a second time at this

13     moment, I'll ask your monitor to be switched off when we look at it for a

14     second time, and if you would prefer to take your earphones off, you're

15     free to do so.  I just wanted to inquire with you, whether you'd prefer

16     not to look a second time within ten minutes to this.

17             Would you prefer not to look at it again?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will look at it again.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will play it again and that's mainly for us

20     to receive the proper translation.  That's the reason why we play it

21     place.

22             MS. LEE:  Your Honour, if I may, I will be stopping at various

23     segments of the video.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MS. LEE:  And I would like the witness to comment.  Can I stop at

Page 4284

 1     those segments at this time or should we play the entire clip again and

 2     then go back to those?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You can stop.  But then have you to wait until the

 4     translation, up to that point in time, is finished.

 5             MS. LEE:  Okay.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And then can you ask questions.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             "THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover]:  Today on this spot in Sarajevo

 9     six boys and girls were killed by two criminal shells.  Two were

10     seriously injured.  Six young Sarajevans were killed in the name of the

11     insane cause of a Greater Serbia.  Their only fault was that they trusted

12     the deceptive calm.  Not one of the victim boys and girls had been born

13     yet at the time of the winter Olympics in Sarajevo exactly 10 years ago.

14     The little Olympians exchanged their occupied ice ranges and sleighing

15     slopes on the surrounding hills for the ice on the parking lot.  On these

16     sleds two girls got killed.  They had borrowed the sleds from their

17     friends."

18             MS. LEE:

19        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, do you recognise this street?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, we have just stopped at 56 seconds of the

22     video.

23             Can we now please continue to play.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:  The majority of the Bosnian

Page 4285

 1     people cannot receive the signal of Bosnia and Herzegovina television.

 2     This broadcast is rebroadcast on the radio and therefore we will relate

 3     that.  Right now on the screen there are imagines of scattered brain

 4     matter and blood sled by Sarajevo boys and girls.  Our radio signal can

 5     be heard in Serbia.  Tonight Serbia should hear that her heros killed six

 6     little Sarajevans with their cannons today.  Serbia must hear that so far

 7     her sons have killed other 1.600 Sarajevo children and about 20.000 in

 8     Bosnia Herzegovina.  Serbia should hear that these were not only Muslim

 9     children.  Here, Serbian soldiers are also killing Serbian and Croatian

10     children and children from mixed marriages.  Today and tomorrow are days

11     of rest in Serbia and Europe.

12             Belgrade TV will not broadcast the images of the dead little

13     Sarajevans.  The European TV stations will edit out these horrific images

14     in order not to spoil the weekend for the viewers.  The diplomatics come

15     of Europe and the world are skiing with their children on the mountain

16     slopes of Europe.  The children in Serbia and Europe today..."

17             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, we have stopped at 2 minutes and

18     8 seconds within the video.

19        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, do you recognise this location?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can you tell us where this location is in relation to where you

22     fell?

23        A.   This is Cetinska Street and further on it's Clara Zetkin Street.

24     While I was back, further back.

25             MS. LEE:  We could continue playing this video.

Page 4286

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:  The children in Serbia and Europe

 3     today do not know that their fathers are criminals.  We are poorer today

 4     for six little lilies.  We're six times sadder today than we were

 5     yesterday.  Today we have to be six times stronger.

 6             "These chilling imagines of massacred children's bodies are proof

 7     of the hell of war that we're going through.  Today, again, from the

 8     surrounding hills the Chetniks continued killing and destroying

 9     everything that is human and worth mentioning.  Chetniks shells have

10     forever ended the lives of six of our youngest citizens.  All they were

11     guilty of was sledding.

12             "The seriously injured 10-year-old ..."

13             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, we have stopped at 3 minutes and

14     7 seconds.

15        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, who is this person?

16        A.   That's me.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:  The seriously injured

19     Muhamed Kapetanovic was taken to hospital by his father.  Four shells

20     fell on Alipasino Polje block C in Cetinska street and Clara

21     Zetkin Street.  At that moment I was in the bathroom.  The little one was

22     outside" --

23             MS. LEE:  We have stopped at 3 minutes and 16 seconds.

24        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic who is this person?

25        A.   That is my father.

Page 4287

 1        Q.   What is his name?

 2        A.   Hamed.

 3        Q.   His full name?

 4        A.   Hamed Kapetanovic.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:  At that moment, I was in the

 8     bathroom.  The little one was outside and when my daughters looked out

 9     the window they screamed saying, The little one is getting killed.  I ran

10     out, barely managing to put on some clothes.  I didn't even dry myself

11     off.  When I came down they were lying there.  There were many dead and

12     injured.  First aid was administered at Dobrinja and now I brought him

13     here and I don't know what will be with him.  He is seriously injured.

14     Muhamed was seriously injured in the jaw and leg by a shell.

15             "We were by the sheds skating.  All of a sudden a shell fell.  We

16     started running.  In front of us we started running towards the house

17     entrance and as Danijel and I started running, a shell landed between the

18     two of us.  He was killed on the spot and I was injured in four places.

19     The doctors are still fighting for the lives of the brothers,

20     Ahmethodzic, Elvir and Admir.

21             MS. LEE:

22        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, at the end of the video, the reporter mentioned

23     two names, Elvir and Admir.  Are these the same two friends with whom you

24     were playing that day?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4288

 1        Q.   And, finally, Mr. Kapetanovic, do you know the extent of the

 2     injures that Admir and Elvir sustained from the shelling?

 3        A.   Admir's left leg was amputated.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat what he said last.

 5             MS. LEE:

 6        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, can you repeat your answer.  I think the

 7     interpreters have not heard you fully.  Can you repeat if you know the

 8     extent of injuries that Admir and Elvir sustained.

 9        A.   Admir's left leg was amputated below the hip.  And Elvir had also

10     sustained injured to his left leg.

11        Q.   And how do you know this?

12        A.   Well, I know them.

13        Q.   Do you -- are you still -- did you remain in contact with them?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, at this time I would like it tender into

16     evidence the video-clip as the next public exhibit.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

18             Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  May I have just the number of the video-clip?

20             MS. LEE:  Oh, yes, it's 65 ter 28448.  I apologise.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P420, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, this completes my examination.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Lee.

25             Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

Page 4289

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It will be short, Your Honour.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] My name is Miodrag Stojanovic, and I am one the

 4     Defence counsel.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I just wanted to tell Mr. Kapetanovic that you

 6     will now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic, who introduced himself

 7     already as a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we have document P3 in e-court, the photograph on page 5.

11             While we're waiting for it, Your Honours, it's a collection of

12     photographs provided by the Prosecution which were used repeatedly in the

13     courtroom before.

14             Can we zoom in on the lower part of the photograph, the centre.

15     It's an aerial image.

16        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, kindly tell us if you can by looking at the

17     airport runway find the location of the buildings that you spoke of

18     earlier.

19        A.   Well, I can't see them at the moment, no.

20        Q.   Very well.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we then look at page 6 of

22     the same document.  We'll come back to this image later.  Thank you.  Let

23     us enlarge the central area where we have the green and red frames.

24     Thank you.

25        Q.   Sir, by looking at this photograph, can you find the areas that

Page 4290

 1     you marked on the previous photographs?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you mark, the same way as you did before, with a red circle,

 4     the spot where you were at the time the shell was fired?

 5        A.   The photograph is rather small.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Lee.

 7             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, I was just wondering since this witness

 8     has made markings in red for the Prosecution, if the markings could be

 9     done in a different colour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is usually done.  It's now marking -- at

11     the request of the Defence will be in blue.

12             MS. LEE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could the photograph, could it be blown up a

14     bit, to say the lower left part to be blown up.

15             Does this help you, Mr. Kapetanovic?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then mark with a circle the places you

18     were asked to do, the spot where you were at the time the shell was

19     fired.

20             And I take it, Mr. Stojanovic, that you intend to ask the witness

21     to mark the spot when the shell was fired that hit the witness or any of

22     the previous shells he heard being fired?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour.  I will

24     have other questions, and we will be marking spot by spot.  And we will

25     use it as one exhibit ultimately.

Page 4291

 1        Q.   So the first question was to mark the spot where you were at the

 2     time when the shell landed.

 3        A.   So you mean where I stood?  Well, roughly here.  I am not that

 4     precise, really.

 5        Q.   Can you make it a circle and mark it with number 1.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  On this same map, if you recall, can you mark the

 8     spot where, to the best of your knowledge, the first shell landed which

 9     prompted you to start running?

10        A.   I don't know where the first shell landed.  We only heard the

11     sound and started running.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And thirdly, can you mark the spot where --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Lee.

14             MS. LEE:  I apologise, Your Honour.  The witness just made the

15     marking after hearing the first question and he was asked to put a circle

16     and put a place number 1 beside it.  And I just see two little circles

17     and so if that could be clarified.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MS. LEE:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that the two little circles you have

21     drawn are approximately indicating where you were when the shell fell

22     which hit you?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The place that I marked was the

24     place where I was when I heard the first explosion.  And if you could

25     blow up the image further, it will be clearer.

Page 4292

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  I would like to ask the

 2     technical service to do that, although then we will lose the markings.

 3     So I will ask the witness to mark the places again.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we somewhere again have on the screen the

 5     same picture and not store the markings as we had them now and then to

 6     blow up the central part.

 7             Still a bit more, please.

 8             Are you able to orient yourself, Mr. Kapetanovic, on the -- on

 9     the map?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you mark again with a little circle and a

12     number 1 where you were when you heard the shells being fired, when you

13     were still playing.

14             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could you now also mark where you were

16     when the shell landed which hit you?  Also a circle and please a little 2

17     perhaps to the right of that circle.

18             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The upper circle was the circle marked by

20     number 1.  The lower one by number 2.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance.

23        Q.   Can I ask you to place the circle and number 3 at the location

24     where, to the best of your recollection, the command of the Kulin Ban BH

25     army unit was located?

Page 4293

 1             MS. LEE:  Objection.  I object to this question, Your Honour.

 2     Information was put to the witness that it was a command of a BiH army,

 3     and that's something that this witness has not testified to anywhere.  So

 4     that's suggesting -- it is rather suggestive, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is.  But it is clear to you, you referred to

 6     Kulin Ban.  That's the name you thought was given to a certain location.

 7     Could you mark with a circle -- you've done it already.  I see it.  Yes.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do not want to interrupt my

10     questioning, but I would like to present to you item 9 which is adduced

11     here as evidence where the witness said that the place where we were

12     skating was across from the location where there was some sort of

13     military staff.  So when I said staff I was referring to what the witness

14     said.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The matter -- the matter has been resolved.  So

16     let's not -- let's proceed at this moment and elicit further evidence

17     from the witness.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, I apologise, but I will have several short

20     questions.  Don't hold it against me.

21             To the best of your recollection, how long was it between the

22     first and the second shells landed?  How much time elapsed?

23        A.   I don't recall that.

24        Q.   My second question.  Can you give us an estimation of the

25     distance you covered, or of the distance between the place you stood when

Page 4294

 1     you heard the first shell land and which you marked as circle number 1

 2     and the place that you marked where you were hit?

 3        A.   Roughly 10 to 15 metres.

 4        Q.   So am I right in saying that the -- in the time interval between

 5     the two shells, you covered these 10 to 15 metres?  Am I right?

 6        A.   When the first shell landed, we started running, and then the

 7     second landed.

 8        Q.   Thank you for your help.  At the time, you didn't know what sort

 9     of shell it was and what weapon fired it.

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   You didn't even know the direction the shell flew in from.

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   You don't know who it was who fired the shell, do you?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I am sorry for everything that happened to you, and I

16     have no other questions for you.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

18     if this is the right time, I would suggest that we do as we did before,

19     which is that the witness should sign the marked photographs so that we

20     can tender it as a Defence exhibit.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we never did that here.  And the markings

22     are clear in e-court, so, therefore, there's no need to do that.

23             Madam Registrar, the number of this marked map would be ...

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Of the page 5 of document P3 as marked by the

25     witness in court will become Exhibit D82, Your Honours.

Page 4295

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  It is admitted into

 2     evidence.

 3             Any need for further investigation -- further examination,

 4     Ms. Lee?

 5             MS. LEE:  Yes, Your Honour, in light of the cross-examination, I

 6     have a couple of --

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise.  I

 8     apologise to my learned friend.  If I was told correctly, this is page 6

 9     rather than page 5 of the collection of the aerial images.  I want to

10     avoid any confusion.  I apologise.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Most important is we know what we're looking at.

12     Madam Registrar has managed to get this on the screen and that the

13     exhibit, as now admitted, reflects whatever page it was, the cut-out

14     portion of the map as it's found in the binders.  I even think that the

15     page number is page --

16             THE REGISTRAR:  It is page 6, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It's page 6.  And it's -- in the hard copy version

18     it is page 3, a cut-out of page 3.

19             Yes.  Ms. Lee.

20             MS. LEE:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Re-examination by Ms. Lee:

22        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, the Kulin Ban that you mentioned and that you

23     marked here as number 3, this building, have you ever visited this

24     building during the war?

25        A.   No.  No, I didn't.  But I was close by.

Page 4296

 1        Q.   And did you know the Kulin Ban personally?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   So do you know which -- to which army the Kulin Ban belonged to?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   I'm -- did you know -- did you know personally at that time

 6     which -- which army that the Kulin Ban belonged to?  Is this something

 7     that you knew from your personal knowledge?

 8        A.   Yes, I did know that.  They bore the insignia of the

 9     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10        Q.   And my final question is:  On the day before hearing the first

11     shell that landed in the vicinity where you and your friends were

12     playing, did you hear any shells or gun-fires that came out of your

13     neighbourhood or near the Kulin Ban building on the date of the incident?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no speaking.

15             Mr. Stojanovic.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the

17     question does not arise from cross-examination.  It actually is beyond

18     the scope of cross-examination.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.

20             Well, Kulin Ban was specifically addressed by you, so, therefore,

21     it is so closely related to what was asked in cross-examination that

22     Ms. Lee may put this question.

23             Could you please repeat the question for the witness.

24             MS. LEE:  Yes.

25        Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, on the date of the incident, before hearing the

Page 4297

 1     first shell and after which you -- you and your friends began to run

 2     home, did you hear -- or did you -- did you hear any shells or gun-fires

 3     that came from your neighbourhood or this Kulin Ban building that you

 4     just marked?

 5        A.   No, I didn't hear any explosions.  That day was peaceful, and

 6     that was why we were outdoors.

 7             MS. LEE:  Your Honours, this completes my re-direct.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Lee.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I would have one brief question for you.

12             And could we have on our screens the -- Madam Registrar, perhaps

13     you could assist me, the first of the three photographs that were marked

14     by the witness and were separated.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  It was P417, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P417.

17             If you would give me one second to phrase my question,

18     Mr. Kapetanovic.  Yes, could I ask you the following:  Do I understand

19     you well that you were playing approximately where this greenish shed is

20     at the end of the street which you marked?  You were playing there, and

21     it's there where you heard the first shell being fired, which made you

22     run back home.

23             Is that correctly understood?

24        A.   Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you were asked how far you ran

Page 4298

 1     approximately when you heard that shell up till the moment where the

 2     shell landed and you were hit by that shell.  You remember that?

 3        A.   Yes.  My answer was 10 to 15 metres.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If I look at this photographs, I have some

 5     difficulty with your estimate that it would be only 10 or 15 metres,

 6     because it seems to be far more to me; because, first, to cross the

 7     street from the shed, from the green shed, and then it seems that it was

 8     quite a bit more.  Would you agree with me, or ... because 15 metres, as

 9     far as I am able to deduce from this picture, would certainly -- not any

10     closer than where this man walks.

11        A.   I didn't quite understand what you're saying.  You mean to say

12     that I ran and -- for more than 15 metres?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  At least.  I -- looking at this photograph, I would

14     not exclude that the distance would have been more than the 10 or more

15     metres you told us.

16        A.   Can you repeat what you said?  I'm afraid I didn't understand.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I wondered whether the distance you ran, starting at

18     the shed where you were sleighing, whether, when you were hit, whether

19     you had not yet covered more metres than the 10 or 15 you told us.

20        A.   I don't know.  My estimate was 15 metres.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Any further questions?  If not, Mr. Kapetanovic, this concludes

23     your testimony in this court.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming

24     the long way to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that

25     were put to you.  I can imagine that it may not have been easy for you to

Page 4299

 1     have been taken back to the incident you testified about.

 2             We wish you a safe return home again.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, before the next witness is called, I

 8     need to make a submission to the Chamber.  I can do that either before or

 9     after the break, whichever pleases the Court.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I think if you can do it in two or three minutes

11     then we will then take a break.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, this submission relates to the next

13     witness, Richard Mole.  Several weeks ago, Ms. Hochhauser brought to my

14     attention a document that she came across in her final preparations to

15     lead the evidence of this witness.  It was her opinion that the document

16     was of a type that we were obliged to disclose under Rule 68(i).  After

17     studying the document considering that in the context of this case, the

18     case against Mr. Mladic, I shared her opinion and made the legal

19     determination that our obligations under Rule 68(i) did require us to

20     disclose the document.  The document is identified by ERN number R0155267

21     to R0155270.  It is a document of four pages, one being a fax cover and a

22     three-page memo.  It was provided to the OTP by an organisation pursuant

23     to Rule 70.

24             Once the determination was made that disclosure was required, we

25     requested from the provider permission to disclose the document to

Page 4300

 1     Mr. Mladic.  We are still discussing this request with the provider but

 2     we're unfortunately unable to secure permission to disclose it prior to

 3     today, the date of the witness's evidence.

 4             When it became clear that the hurricane over the eastern seaboard

 5     would make it impossible to get this permission, I brought it to the

 6     attention of both Mr. Lukic and Mr. Nilsson, the Chamber's

 7     Senior Legal Officer.  I proposed to Mr. Lukic that we proceed with the

 8     evidence of Mr. Mole and that I would disclose the document as soon as we

 9     received permission to do so.  Further, I gave an undertaking that I

10     would not oppose any application by the Mladic Defence to recall the

11     witness should it deem that it is necessary to question the witness about

12     the document.

13             The matter has been raised with Mr. Mole and he appreciates and

14     accepts that he may be required to return to The Hague.

15             If that is an acceptable way of proceeding, Your Honour, the

16     Prosecution would be prepared to call Mr. Mole at this stage.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand that the Defence does not disagree

18     with proceeding as you suggested.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'm handling the witness.  Mr. Lukic

20     did advise me of this yesterday, and I agreed with him this appeared to

21     be a reasonable means of proceeding.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll proceed as suggested by Mr. Groome.  But

23     we'll first take a break, and we'll resume at a quarter to 2.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 1.26 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 1.53 p.m.

Page 4301

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hochhauser, unless there are any preliminaries,

 2     I would like to -- the witness to be escorted into the courtroom.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, good afternoon.

 4             As the witness is being brought in, I would just like to place on

 5     the record the adjudicated fact on which the Prosecution relied in

 6     redacting the proposed 92 ter statement and in deciding not to elicit

 7     certain information during examination.

 8             Those adjudicated facts are the following numbers: 1731, 1808,

 9     2036, 2037, 2039, 2047, 2049, 2050, and 2051.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile, I inform the Prosecution and the parties

13     that leave to reply to the response to the 92 ter motion is granted.

14             Good afternoon, Mr. Mole.

15             THE WITNESS:  Sir.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mole, before you give evidence, the Rules

17     require that you make a solemn declaration, the text of which is handed

18     out to you now.

19             May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

20             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

21     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  RICHARD MOLE

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Mole.  Please be seated.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hochhauser, there was also a request for adding

Page 4302

 1     documents to the 65 ter list.  Whenever it comes to tendering of any of

 2     the documents, the Chamber will understand this as including a decision

 3     on adding the document to the 65 ter list.  So we come to that once the

 4     document is dealt with.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Mr. Mole, you will first be examined, although not for a very

 8     long time today, for only 20 minutes, by Ms. Hochhauser.  Ms. Hochhauser

 9     is counsel for the Prosecution.

10             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.

12                           Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

13        Q.   Good afternoon, Colonel.  Can you please state your name for the

14     record.

15        A.   My name is Richard Mole.

16        Q.   And are you currently employed, Colonel Mole?

17        A.   I am.  I'm self-employed.

18        Q.   I take it then that you are retired from any military service?

19        A.   I retired in 1993.

20        Q.   And what was the last position you held before retiring?

21        A.   I was the Chief of Staff in a unit in Germany from whence I went

22     to Bosnia on the UN attachment.

23        Q.   I have just been reminded by Ms. Stewart to myself and I'll

24     advise you as well that we need to pause between our questions and

25     answers since we're speaking in the same language.  Give a little time

Page 4303

 1     for the translators.

 2             Now, Colonel Mole, you have previously provided statement to the

 3     Office of the Prosecutor in September 1997 and April 2002; is that right?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   You also previously testified in the cases against both

 6     Stanislav Galic and Radovan Karadzic; is that correct?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   In preparation for your testimony in the Karadzic case, you

 9     signed amalgamated statement on 7th of May, 2010, which amalgamated

10     relevant portions of your two previous statements and the testimony in

11     the Galic case; is that correct?

12        A.   It is.

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If I could please ask the usher to place 65 ter

14     28455 on the monitor.

15        Q.   And, Colonel, do you recognise the document on the screen in

16     front of you?

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   And is that the amalgamated statement we just discussed?

19        A.   It is.

20        Q.   Now, have you had the opportunity to review this statement again

21     before testifying here today?

22        A.   I have.

23        Q.   On 17 August 2010 during your testimony in the Karadzic case,

24     in -- in that case as transcript page 5805 to 5806, you made a correction

25     to your amalgamated statement at paragraph 12 in which you stated that

Page 4304

 1     the sentence as it reads in the written document which says, "There were

 2     approximately seven manned observation posts on each side" should in fact

 3     read as follows:

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Which paragraph, Ms. Hochhauser.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, it's at paragraph 12.

 6     And I believe this information, this correction was previously provided

 7     to the Chamber and Defence via e-mail.

 8        Q.   So at paragraph 12 should correctly read:

 9             "With respect to the monitoring of weapons, there were 14

10     observation posts.  At the end of October 1992, ten were on the Lima side

11     and four on the Papa side.  By the end of November 1992, there were 11 on

12     the Lima side and three on the Papa side, and this remained the case

13     until my departure."

14             Now, what I've just read, is that a correction to your

15     amalgamated statement that you would still make today?

16        A.   It is.

17        Q.   And other than that correction, is the statement that's on the

18     monitor in front of you, the amalgamated statement, both accurate and

19     truthful?

20        A.   It is.

21        Q.   If you were asked the same questions today that you were asked

22     when you provided the information contained in this statement, would you

23     give the same answers?

24        A.   I would.

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, if I may I now tender 65 ter 28455,

Page 4305

 1     the amalgamated statement, into evidence.  I see my colleague is

 2     standing, so ...

 3             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar -- Mr. Registrar.  We've changed

 7     during the last session.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It becomes Exhibit P421, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P421 is admitted into evidence.

10             You may proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, at this time I would also like to

12     tender the associated exhibits into evidence.  As Your Honours will note

13     from the chart provided one of the associated exhibits is already in

14     evidence as P00300.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Can we take them one by one --

16             MR. IVETIC:  No objections.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections to anyone of them?

18             MR. IVETIC:  That is correct, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we go through them one by one.

20             65 ter 10775.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P422, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             P10776.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P423, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

Page 4306

 1             10777.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P424, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 4             10778.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P425, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 7             65 ter 10787.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P426, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

10             65 ter 15875.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P427, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

13             Next one is 15895.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P428, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

16             Last one, 19543.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P429, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And is also admitted into evidence.

19             Please proceed.

20             MS. LEE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  At this time, with the Court's

21     permission, I will read a brief summary of just the written evidence

22     contained in Mr. Mole's statement.

23             Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Mole served in the British Army for

24     over 20 years prior to his assignment to the former Yugoslavia as a

25     United Nations Military Observer.  After initial posts in Croatia and in

Page 4307

 1     Belgrade, Colonel Mole was posted to Sarajevo as a

 2     Senior Military Observer and served there from 16 September 1992 until 26

 3     December 1992.  In Sarajevo, Colonel Mole was in charge of approximately

 4     60 United Nations Military Observers positioned on both sides of the

 5     confrontation line with a mandate to, among observer things, monitor and

 6     report on heavy weapons activity.

 7             Colonel Mole's written evidence describes the intense shelling in

 8     Sarajevo and the intense psychological pressure which resulted for the

 9     city's citizens.

10             He describes indiscriminate and untargeted shelling of the city

11     by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and how he and his monitors sought

12     explanations from that corps' commanders and received explanations which

13     showed no military justification for the shelling.

14             Colonel Mole frequently met with the SRK commander,

15     General Galic, and observed the regular and effective chain of command of

16     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  He also protested the indiscriminate shelling

17     to members of that corps and to its command and in his evidence states

18     that Galic threatened to shell Sarajevo city if events elsewhere did not

19     transpire in the favour of the Bosnian Serbs.

20             Colonel Mole came to view the Bosnian Serb strategy in Sarajevo

21     as a policy of containment in that their use of force was not justified

22     by military necessity but rather by an effort to apply pressure to the

23     city in order to achieve their aims.

24             Your Honour, that concludes my summary.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.  If you have any further

Page 4308

 1     questions for the witness, please proceed.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

 3        Q.   Now, Colonel Mole, as you know the Chamber is already in position

 4     of the statement which is now in evidence and has carefully reviewed it

 5     so that our time in court will be spent clarifying a few things from your

 6     statement and discussing topics that are not addressed in it.

 7             First, I'd like to define a few terms that you say use in your

 8     statement.  You refer throughout it to the Lima and Papa sides.  Can you

 9     just tell us which is Lima and which is Papa?

10        A.   The Papa side was that designated applied to the Presidency side

11     within the city of Sarajevo.  The Lima side was designated UNMOs outside

12     the city, hosted by the SRK.

13        Q.   You used in your statement the term increp, i-n-c-r-e-p.  Can you

14     tell us what is that?

15        A.   It is a short word for instant report.

16        Q.   And also shootrep?

17        A.   Similarly it's a short word for shoot report.

18        Q.   And sitrep is that --

19        A.   Situation report.

20        Q.   Can you tell us just a brief description of what is recorded in

21     each of those three reports, what the differences are?

22        A.   A situation report would be a report that I would probably

23     assemble using information and data that I had collected for submission

24     up my chain of command.

25             A shootrep would be a report that was completed on a pro forma,

Page 4309

 1     as was an incident report, completed on a pro forma.

 2             The shootrep would record outgoing rounds from weapons that

 3     UN Military Observers were next to or nearby or could observe.

 4             The increp or incident report would be a reciprocal report except

 5     that it would report incoming fire that, again, was observed by

 6     United Nations Military Observers.

 7        Q.   Now you told us -- you describe it as a pro forma.  Is that

 8     meaning a standardised form that was used for all the reporters?

 9        A.   Yes.  There was a form which we trained the individual

10     UN Military Observers to use.  The aim of giving them a standard form was

11     to facilitate reading serials over a radio without having to go through

12     detailed explanation.  I feel sure that we'll probably come onto the

13     detail of that later.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might interrupt, I'm sorry.  Just for my

15     edification, Colonel, when you say a shootrep, I beg your pardon.  When

16     you talk of an outgoing fire from weapons that the United Nations

17     Military Observers were next to or nearby or could observe, I'm not quite

18     sure I understand what -- who was actually shooting.

19             THE WITNESS:  The question, sir, was relating to the form.  I

20     didn't say who was or wasn't shooting.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm asking the question.

22             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  It could be either side.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

25        Q.   Colonel Mole, just to follow up on that for a moment.  The UN

Page 4310

 1     monitor who was filling out the form, can you give us an example of where

 2     they would be -- where one might be standing when filling out a shootrep?

 3     Where they might be positioned.

 4        A.   Indeed.  As the name of the report suggests, it is a weapon that

 5     is actually being fired, so clearly a UN Military Observer would have to

 6     be in the proximity of that weapon to be able to observe it.  So for the

 7     majority of the shootreps which were expedited, most of them would be on

 8     the Lima side, since that was where most heavy weapons were.  So if I may

 9     give an example.

10        Q.   Please.

11        A.   That, on a gun site where UN Military Observers were co-located

12     with that gun site, if the commander of the gun decided on a fire mission

13     once the rounds were leaving the weapons, it would invoke a shootrep.

14     That shootrep would then be filled out filling in the all the various

15     serials within that form to give as much information as possible so that

16     that could then be reported to myself and up the chain of command.

17        Q.   Now, in paragraphs 12 through 14 of your statement you talk about

18     observation posts and weapon sights at the two different types of

19     locations that you were monitoring.  And I think you have just begun to

20     give an example of perhaps a weapon sight.  Can you tell us the

21     difference, please, between observation posts and weapons sights.  What

22     are the two different types of locations that you're monitoring?

23        A.   I think it's important at this stage to put the two into

24     perspective.

25             The airport agreement of 1992 initiated weapon collection points,

Page 4311

 1     and that was invoked on both sides.  The detail of the agreement

 2     included, or was meant to include, the collection of weapons so that they

 3     then wouldn't be used.

 4             Now that isn't what transpired.  What happened was we had

 5     UN Military Observers who were allocated to weapons sights but the

 6     weapons were still obviously in use.  Now that applied to both sides, the

 7     Presidency side and the Serb side.  So, as a consequence, we deployed

 8     UN Military Observers to Papa and Lima, as I've already explained.

 9             Disposition of weapons on both sides was at variance.  Most of

10     the heavy weapons were held by the Serb side.  Some were held by the

11     Presidency side.

12             Now, at this juncture I must point out that when I talk of the

13     Presidency side, I speak of those weapons within Sarajevo, within the

14     city itself.  They didn't have a large number of weapons within the

15     Presidency side --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be a --

17             MR. IVETIC:  There's a problem with the interpretation,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Interpretation seems to be problematic.

20             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But the clock seems to be problematic as well at

22     this moment because we usually finish at quarter past 2.00.  It is

23     quarter past 2.00 now so we have a whole night to repair any other

24     technical problems.

25             Mr. Mole, we'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same

Page 4312

 1     courtroom.  But I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak with

 2     or communicate in any other way with whomever about your testimony,

 3     either the -- the testimony given today or testimony still to be given in

 4     tomorrow or even the day after tomorrow.

 5             So we'd like to see you back, and I invite you to follow the

 6     usher.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow,

10     Thursday, the 1st of November, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same

11     courtroom, I.

12                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of

14                           November, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.

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