121105ED

Page 4541

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I have to get up for that?

2 JUDGE ORIE: No, you can remain seated. I saw you have some --

3 some problems in standing and walking, so ...

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 WITNESS: ISMET SVRAKA

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Svraka.

9 You'll now be examined by Ms. Lee. Ms. Lee is counsel for the

10 Prosecution and you'll find her to your right.

11 Please proceed.

12 Examination by Ms. Lee:

13 MS. LEE:

14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Svraka. Could you please state -- could you

15 please state your full name for the record.

16 A. Ismet Svraka.

17 Q. Do you recall providing a statement to the Office of the

18 Prosecutor on or about the 5th of November, 2008?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 28472 on our screen.

21 Q. Mr. Svraka, on the screen before you, can I -- can I ask that you

22 look at the first page of the English version of this statement. It's

23 e-court page 1. Do you recognise your signature on the bottom of the

24 page?

25 A. I do.

Page 4542

1 MS. LEE: Can I ask that we go to the -- to page 5 in e-court of

2 the English version of the statement.

3 Q. Do you recognise your signature on that page?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read and review this statement in

6 preparation of your appearance here today?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I understand that you made some corrections or clarifications

9 to this statement after reviewing for your preparation?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. LEE: May I please have the B/C/S version of this -- both

12 B/C/S and English version on the screen. And may I have page 2 in

13 e-court for the English version, and page 3 in e-court for the B/C/S

14 version.

15 Q. Mr. Svraka, I understand that you wanted to make some

16 clarification in relation to paragraph 2 of the witness statement. I

17 understand that the Markale market that you mention here, it's the closed

18 area of Markale market.

19 A. The market was closed in Markale -- I mean, there's always two

20 Markale, and I always say that, Markale I and Markale II. The Markale

21 market, the closed one, and the open-air market Markale.

22 Q. So which one were you staying close to?

23 A. In front of the covered market, Trznica, that market.

24 Q. Now also I understand that you wanted to make corrections to your

25 statement in relation to the Bosnian statement mentioned here, dated --

Page 4543

1 dated 10th of September, 1995.

2 A. I don't know. I mean, I didn't understand the question.

3 Q. I'll repeat the question.

4 Were you shown -- in relation to this paragraph 2 of this

5 statement, the statement says that you were shown a document and

6 bearing -- you were shown a document that was a Bosnian -- a statement

7 taken by Bosnian investigators in September of 1995. Do you recall who

8 interviewed you at the -- for that statement?

9 A. I was in hospital at the time, in September, and I said that -- I

10 mean doctors came, journalists came, visitors came. Everybody wore these

11 coats. And now I think if we're talking signatures, I mean, journalists

12 well, I don't know. Journalists, investigators, whatever. I mean, they

13 signed it for me, instead of me. I did not sign that, I do not recognise

14 that signature as my own if we're talking about signatures now. I mean,

15 it's over here somewhere, isn't it.

16 Q. I'll refer -- you were shown a statement written in Bosnian

17 language today that was dated from September of 1995 where you just

18 mentioned that you were -- the statement was taken while you were in

19 hospital. On that statement, there was signatures that -- that -- that

20 were shown, and my -- you just said that you did not recognise a

21 signature on the page as being your own?

22 A. I mean, now, these signatures that were here before this page,

23 those were my segments. But there is this page where my signature has

24 not been placed. It was some investigator, some journalist, or -- I

25 mean, while I was in hospital, I was still half in shock. I was there

Page 4544

1 for 45 days in hospital in one go. I mean, that was that interval.

2 MS. LEE: Your Honours --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee, I'm a bit confused by page 35, line 9,

4 where you say you were shown a statement written in Bosnian language

5 today.

6 MS. LEE: Yes. This relates to paragraph 2 of

7 Mr. Svraka's statement.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Is that the clarification?

9 MS. LEE: Yes, that he does not recognise his signature.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. That's a bit -- I wouldn't consider that

11 a statement.

12 But from what I understand, Mr. Svraka, what you say is though

13 you have stated in 2008, that is, the document that was shown to you

14 today and that was the document you went through one of these days, that

15 where it says that you recognised a signature on a document -- on a

16 statement taken when you were in hospital, that you say, No, that is not

17 my signature, and you do not agree with the content of that statement

18 taken when you were in hospital. Is that correctly understood?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave a statement in 2008 at the

20 student centre in Sarajevo. There are these two sky-scrapers there and

21 then I was called by this man from The Hague Prosecutor's Office. I

22 mean, I recognise the statement that I gave to him. But there's this

23 other statement from the hospital that others signed for me. I don't

24 remember that statement. And I did not sign it.

25 That's it.

Page 4545

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- that's clear to us.

2 Yes.

3 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move to, then, I take it paragraph 9.

5 MS. LEE: Yes. Can I have the next page on e-court for both

6 versions of the statement. Could I have actually page 5 in e-court for

7 the Bosnian version of the statement.

8 Q. And, Mr. Svraka, I understand that you also wanted to make one

9 other correction, and this relates to paragraph 5 [sic] of the statement

10 where you make a reference to a nurse holding two bags of blood. My

11 understanding is that you just wanted to clarify that those two bags of

12 blood was not for one patient but -- because there were a lot of injured

13 patients there.

14 A. Yes, somebody wrote that. It's certain that I didn't say that.

15 I saw a nurse with these two bottles of whatever infusion, blood, I don't

16 know. It was taken to one patient but then that would mean there were

17 only these two patient, that we were the only two patients in hospital.

18 Forty persons were killed, eighty were wounded, and you could not get

19 through. I mean, so the mistake has to do with this one single patient.

20 But it's probably two bottles for two patients. Probably there wasn't

21 enough hospital staff there at the time and no one could --

22 Q. Yes, thank you.

23 A. You're welcome.

24 Q. Now -- now that you've made these corrections and clarifications

25 to your statement that's before you, if you were -- if you were asked

Page 4546

1 today the same questions that you were asked when this statement of 2008

2 was taken, would you give the same answer and provide the same

3 information in substance?

4 A. What I said now I will say in another ten years and whenever.

5 What I've said just now, that is.

6 Q. Yes, yes, I understand. But now, the information contained in

7 this statement that you have before you, other than the corrections that

8 you made to this statement in paragraphs 2 and 9, if you were asked the

9 same questions at -- as the questions that you were asked in 2008 when

10 you gave this statement, would you give the same answers and the same

11 information that's contained here today?

12 A. You mean number 9? That's what you're talking about. The only

13 difference is in -- well, probably I didn't say this. Probably. That

14 there were these two bags of blood, or bottles, for one single person. I

15 couldn't have said that.

16 Q. Yes, yes --

17 A. I mean, I was in shock if I said that. But I didn't say that --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Svraka, you have reviewed your statement as you

19 gave it in 2008. You have made a few corrections today. Now, that now,

20 as corrected, reflects the entire truth, which means that you'd give the

21 same answers if you were asked the same questions. Is that well

22 understood?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would give an answer to the

24 effect that the nurse was holding two bottles but intended for two

25 persons. I may have said that, but the mistake occurred when it was

Page 4547

1 noted down.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Svraka, I'm not focussing at this moment anymore

3 on this one line about the blood bags. But in general, the statement as

4 you've corrected it now is now fully in accordance with the truth. Is

5 that correctly understood?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And you would, therefore, giving the same answers if

8 all that would be asked again?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would give the same answers as I

10 did now and as I would do at any time.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 Please proceed, Ms. Lee.

13 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honour. With all these clarifications I

14 would like to tender this witness's statement, dated the 5th of November,

15 2008, bearing 65 ter number 28472, as the next public exhibit.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.

17 Therefore, Madam Registrar, the statement would receive ...

18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28472 becomes Exhibit P444,

19 Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

21 The Chamber had not yet decided on the request for leave to

22 reply. That leave is granted.

23 Please proceed.

24 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Your Honours, I would now like to briefly summarise the written

Page 4548

1 evidence of Mr. Svraka for the record.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

3 MS. LEE: In 1995, Mr. Svraka lived in Sarajevo and was a

4 bricklayer by profession. He was not a soldier. He performed work

5 obligations, including repair works on buildings and digging of trenches.

6 In the morning of the 28th of August, 1995, Mr. Svraka went into

7 the city centre to give a letter to his sister. At that time, he used

8 back roads in order to stay out of sight of snipers. In the city centre

9 he met two of his friends and colleagues, Mr. Ramo Herceglija and

10 Mr. Ibrahim Hajvaz, and he talked with them in the street in front of the

11 Markale market. On that day Mr. Svraka saw a lot of people in the

12 street, and there were no military activities in that area or any

13 military installations or posts.

14 Mr. Svraka heard a tremendous blast and fell down. He realised

15 that he could not feel his leg anymore. Somebody took him into a car

16 through the back trunk and he was taken to Kosevo hospital. There he

17 received several surgeries, both on the 28th of August, 1995, and

18 subsequently.

19 He initially stayed in the hospital for 45 days but was also

20 admitted in 1996 for subsequent treatment. As a result of the explosion,

21 Mr. Svraka lost a leg and sustained injuries to his other leg and

22 received stomach injures. Mr. Svraka's two friends, Mr. Herceglija and

23 Mr. Hajvaz, were killed.

24 Your Honours, this concludes the summary of this witness.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Lee.

Page 4549

1 MS. LEE: Your Honours, there is one exhibit associated to this

2 witness's statement that I would like to tender as the next public

3 exhibit, and it is 65 ter number 18864. They're medical records of

4 Mr. Svraka.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.

6 Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18864 becomes Exhibit P445,

8 Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: P445 is admitted into evidence.

10 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours. I do have a few questions for

11 this witness.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

13 MS. LEE: Thank you.

14 Q. Mr. Svraka, in your statement, at paragraph 6 of your statement,

15 you describe that two of your friends and colleagues were killed, and

16 they were Mr. Ramo Herceglija and Mr. Hajvaz. I apologise for

17 mispronouncing their names. Now, can you tell what they were doing at

18 the market; do you know?

19 A. I would just like to warn you about how you pronounce my last

20 name. My last is Svraka, with an S. Sraka can be somebody else.

21 After I had given a letter to my sister in front of the door to

22 the market, I came across my two friends and my two colleagues. One of

23 them, Ramo Herceglija was a labourer from my group. They were seeking to

24 buy some flour because that was the biggest market in town. Ramo had a

25 bicycle. That was his only means of transportation. And he was holding

Page 4550

1 a jar of homemade honey. And somebody was shouting, five deutschemarks,

2 or ten deutschemarks. I don't know whether he was selling it or buying

3 it. We each lighted a cigarette and we were in a triangle metre by

4 metre, not a square but rather like a triangle, the three of us. After

5 we had smoked half of our cigarettes -- because you asked me what they

6 were doing. That is what they were doing. That is where I came across

7 them, and I believe I have answered your question.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, you mention that suddenly you were -- a shell

9 landed beside you. After the shell landed, where were you in relation to

10 the door of the Markale market?

11 A. Walking from Carsija to --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the location.

13 It was inaudible.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the spot where I encountered my

15 friends, they had their backs turned towards the market. The wall, the

16 facade. As I approached them, I asked them how they were. I was facing

17 them. It was only 5 to 7 metres, 8 at the most. I never measured it.

18 But I only heard an explosion and I fell onto the ground. I don't know

19 how. If need be, I can describe it.

20 I first said to myself, Oh, I got hit as well. I put my hands on

21 my head and I realised that my head was not hurt. I had problems

22 breathing. I managed to open my eyes but I couldn't see anything, until

23 they put me into a car. I wanted to move my legs but I couldn't move

24 either. I was hearing everything that was going on? Am I talking too

25 fast? Well, I was hearing all kinds of things, including swear words.

Page 4551

1 There was shouting. There was panic. They threw me into a car and I saw

2 the driver for the first time. Through the car boot, they put me to the

3 passenger seat, and I saw the man who was driving the car. He came

4 around. He -- he is -- sat down and he said, Don't you be afraid of

5 anything.

6 I asked him, Where are we going? Because there were two

7 hospitals. He said we were going to the Kosevo hospital. Until we

8 reached Ali Pasina mosque I was able to look, but on the way to hospital

9 I was going in and out of consciousness. I was half-awake.

10 When we reached the Kosevo hospital, there is a kind of tunnel

11 there, and I was involved in the building of that tunnel because I worked

12 there for 18 years.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. There are four or five buildings that we had built. You're

15 welcome.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Svraka. Mr. Svraka --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we first seek the clarification on the

18 missing part of the -- you were walking that morning from where to where,

19 Mr. Svraka? The interpreters could not clearly hear it.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From my house to Markale market. I

21 walked. My house is in the Boljakov Potok commune. My address at the

22 time was Ravi Dzindze [phoen] number 70. That was changed later on.

23 So I walked -- may I speak?

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- well, you've answered my question. So

25 there's no problem anymore.

Page 4552

1 Please proceed, Ms. Lee.

2 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Q. Mr. Svraka, in preparation of your testimony here today, do

4 you -- did you have an opportunity to watch video footages?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. LEE: Your Honours, Ms. Stewart will now bring 65 ter number

7 22427 on our screen.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Is it with text or without?

9 MS. LEE: It's without text, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

11 MS. LEE: So I was wondering if I could show the clips of the

12 video and have it stopped --

13 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

15 MS. LEE:

16 Q. Mr. Svraka, I will -- I will now play this video for you, and I

17 will later ask some questions.

18 [Video-clip played]

19 MS. LEE:

20 Q. Mr. Svraka, do you recognise this place?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 MS. LEE: Your Honours, we stopped at 22 seconds.

23 Q. Can you describe what you see here.

24 A. I can see my back. It's here. I see it now, but at that time

25 after I fell onto the ground I wasn't able to see anything.

Page 4553

1 Q. Can you describe -- can you describe to us where you're sitting

2 on this video. Where are you pointing -- who are you pointing at?

3 A. The video that I saw, this should be me. I am 2 metres away from

4 the door to the market.

5 Q. What are you --

6 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I do have a still video, a still image of

7 this clip that we have taken this morning. It -- it is not available on

8 e-court at the moment. I'm -- Ms. Stewart is just checking whether or

9 not it's available.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think marking on the screen requires it to be

11 available in e-court.

12 MS. LEE: I was going to provide you with -- with still -- with

13 the actual hard copy of the image. But I am now told that it is uploaded

14 onto e-court.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you wish to continue to play the video

16 first or would you now change to the still?

17 MS. LEE: I would like to play the video.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MS. LEE: And then I will call up the -- the different stills in

20 e-court.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes.

22 MS. LEE: Thank you.

23 [Video-clip played]

24 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping video]

25 MS. LEE:

Page 4554

1 Q. What did you say?

2 A. Can you play it back a little and then I can show you.

3 Q. What -- thank you for that. What can you tell us -- what -- what

4 are you going to show us now, Mr. Svraka? What you did want to show us?

5 A. I will show you myself. I saw myself sitting there. If you

6 would rewind it a bit.

7 Q. I could --

8 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I will be putting still images to this

9 witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: On all relevant --

11 MS. LEE: On all relevant portions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MS. LEE: I will play --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Svraka, later on we will look at specific

15 images, and then you're invited to further explain. At this moment, we

16 are looking to the video as it is running. So we later come to the

17 specific portions.

18 Please proceed.

19 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 [Video-clip played]

21 MS. LEE: Your Honours, this video is over six minutes long.

22 However, the footage that you have seen until now are relevant to this

23 witness, so I would like to only show this portion.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we stopped at 2 minutes, 18 seconds.

25 Are you going to use other parts at a later stage.

Page 4555

1 MS. LEE: Yes, I will, Your Honour. But it will be used through

2 a different witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although we've not seen the remaining four

4 minutes, Mr. Stojanovic, would there be any problem if this would be

5 tendered at this moment if later used with other witnesses?

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee, you intend to tender this video.

8 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to tender as next

9 public exhibit.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22427 becomes Exhibit P446,

12 Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: P446 is admitted into evidence.

14 Please proceed.

15 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 May I please have 65 ter number 28523 on our screens.

17 JUDGE ORIE: On our list, Ms. Lee, we find 28513. Is that what

18 you wanted --

19 MS. LEE: No.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- to have on your screen? Or is there a mistake on

21 our list? The three stills are on the Prosecution exhibit list under

22 28513.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to clarify this.

25 This -- this document contains two stills from the video that was

Page 4556

1 just shown. This video was shown to the witness this morning because

2 this witness was originally scheduled to testify tomorrow, and so we did

3 not have an opportunity to add this --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So, therefore, 28523 will now be shown being

5 two stills. Is that --

6 MS. LEE: Yes. And I believe they need to be added to our 65 ter

7 exhibit list first and I --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we decide on admission. Now I --

9 Mr. Stojanovic, I think that stills, if the video is already

10 admitted, should not cause great problems.

11 Therefore, leave is granted to add the stills to your 65 ter

12 list.

13 MS. LEE: Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

15 MS. LEE: Thank you. If I could have your indulgence --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, just -- if the video is there, then

17 I could not possibly imagine that the still could be objected to.

18 Please proceed, Ms. Lee.

19 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 The 65 ter number contains two pages. The first page is a still

21 image that had been stopped at 22 seconds of the video that we've just

22 watched that became exhibit number 446.

23 May I ask that Mr. Svraka has -- if the smart screen is available

24 for him to make markings on this still image? Is it available?

25 Q. Mr. Svraka, this is an image, a still image, of the video that

Page 4557

1 was just played to you. Do you recognise anyone on this picture?

2 A. I don't recognise anyone here except these two colleagues of

3 mine. Now, I cannot see my face, but I can see the back. I suppose this

4 is me because I had a jacket like this one and I remember that I had my

5 hands on the floor. And as I said, I hadn't known anyone at the time,

6 and, after that, I was thrown onto the ground.

7 Q. Can you circle in red the person that you recognise -- that you

8 believe is appearing as you on the screen.

9 A. With this? Yes.

10 MS. LEE: Your Honours, this marked page, could it become the

11 next exhibit, public exhibit.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Still of the video marked by the witness would

13 receive, Madam Registrar?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Number P447, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

16 Please proceed.

17 MS. LEE: Now, Your Honours, there is another video that I will

18 be playing. However, that video is over four minutes long. However, it

19 might be difficult for the witness to watch the entire video, and so I

20 would like to just play the first 20 seconds and ask him questions for --

21 for -- ask him some foundational questions. And that will be -- this

22 second video will be used with another witness at a later time.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You just seek his verification of the --

24 MS. LEE: Of the video.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- of the video.

Page 4558

1 Please proceed as you suggested.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Ms. Stewart will now play 65 ter number 22347.

5 [Video-clip played]

6 MS. LEE: This video was stopped at 20 seconds.

7 Q. Mr. Svraka, do you recall seeing this video today?

8 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

9 Q. And do you recognise the scene of this -- this video, where it

10 was taken?

11 A. You cannot see the building there. If it was shot from this

12 side, it should be on the asphalt outside the market. If you view from

13 Carsija towards Marin Dvor. I don't know if that is correct. All I can

14 do is watch it now; but, at the time, as I said before, I wasn't able to

15 see anything.

16 Q. When you mean at the time, it's at the time when you fell you

17 could not see anything? Just for clarification.

18 A. I couldn't see anything after I fell onto the ground, until I was

19 thrown into a cart.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. That's 1.000 per cent correct.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. LEE: Your Honours, the witness has identified this place to

24 be the market. He described that it may be a view from one side to

25 another. May I please have this video entered as the next public

Page 4559

1 exhibit?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is --

3 Witness, you recognise this as the place of the incident where

4 you were injured; is that correct? At least the -- the area.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, listen. I see a wounded man

6 here now. I see the man holding him. I see this motorcycle. I see the

7 street. I cannot say whether it's that or something else. I mean, I see

8 what I see. But there is no entrance into the market. I mean, I cannot

9 talk to you about things that I'm not sure about.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Witnesses --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I see what you see on your

12 screen. And then I did not see anything.

13 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Witness. You have looked at 20 seconds

14 of video footage. You remember that you saw the footage, the last 20

15 seconds. Did you recognise that as the area of the market where you were

16 wounded?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, while you could see the

18 building, I mean, I recognise that and the pavement and the noise, but

19 now over here, I mean, you just see two persons here on the screen. Now.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what you saw during the last 20 seconds

21 when you said you recognised the building and the pavement, is that a

22 building and a pavement close to the area where you were wounded? So not

23 what you see at this moment but what you saw during the last 20 seconds.

24 If need be, it will be played again to you so as to find out

25 whether you recognise the scenes as close to the area where you were

Page 4560

1 wounded.

2 MS. LEE: I -- Your Honours if I may --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, all right.

4 MS. LEE: I will play the entire video at this point if it

5 assists Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: It's not to assist us. Let's first ask: Is there

7 any dispute about this being the scene of the incident?

8 Mr. Stojanovic.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly speak into the microphone.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It seems to me, Your Honour,

11 that that is not the case, but it also seems to me that at this point in

12 time this witness is not able to say that this is an image of Markale.

13 Perhaps it would be fair for him to view the video again so that he can

14 state his views.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's do this again.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, is there any dispute about what was

17 shown over the last 20 seconds, that that is the Markale market area?

18 No dispute.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Unless you have any specific questions for the

21 witness, we can proceed.

22 MS. LEE: Can he mark it, too. May I tender this as the next

23 public exhibit.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22347 becomes Exhibit P448,

Page 4561

1 Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P448 is admitted into evidence.

3 Please proceed.

4 MS. LEE:

5 Q. Mr. Svraka, can you tell us if you still suffer from your

6 injuries today, the injuries that you sustained from the 28th of August,

7 1995.

8 A. The injuries can be seen without any kind of videos, witnesses,

9 whatever. The left leg was amputated above the knee, mid-thigh. I can

10 also show that two of the toes on my right foot had been amputated. My

11 foot was practically cut in two by a shell because the shell hit my foot

12 and the asphalt and my shoe was blown away. And then also there's my

13 right ankle basically destroyed, and also the main vein. That can be

14 shown, too.

15 For two years my right leg was in such shape that I could only

16 touch the ground with the top of my toes. Also, I had these stomachaches

17 and the doctor said that I should have taken half of my intestines out.

18 And then there is this shrapnel in my head up here. See? They said that

19 there should be no surgery. Then also my stomach. It's no good when I'm

20 full. It's no good when I'm hungry. I sit. I lie down. Then I have

21 problems with bowel movement, begging your pardon.

22 These are lasting consequences. As I said at the disability

23 commission, my leg is never going to grow back. I said it to them.

24 Measure it in centimetres now and if ever it grows longer, well ...

25 All of you can see how disabled I am. Look. The prosthesis is

Page 4562

1 here and two crutches. But you have to go on living.

2 MS. LEE: Your Honours, this completes my examination for this

3 witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Lee.

5 Mr. Svraka, we'll first take a break and we'll resume at 1.00.

6 Then you'll be cross-examined by the Defence.

7 But could the witness first be escorted out of the courtroom.

8 [The witness stands down]

9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 1.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.38 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

13 May I, meanwhile, take it, Mr. Groome that there is no other

14 witness available if we would finish today before quarter past 2.00.

15 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there is a matter I do want to raise

18 with the Chamber, though, and I think that would take approximately five

19 minutes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we do that after the evidence of this

21 witness has been concluded.

22 [The witness takes the stand]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Svraka, you'll now be cross-examined by

24 Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

25 Mr. Stojanovic, short and clear questions would be best, I take

Page 4563

1 it.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Svraka, good afternoon.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. I'm sincerely sorry for everything that happened to you as a

8 victim, but I shall try to be as brief as possible, as instructed, and

9 I'll try to keep my questions as short as possible.

10 If I understood you correctly, during those war years, you lived

11 in Boljakov Potok, a part of Sarajevo that is called Boljakov Potok; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber how far away that

15 location is from the Markale market and from the centre of town where you

16 were?

17 A. 4 or 5 or 6 kilometres, roughly.

18 Q. That day you could take that road without noticing any fighting

19 around Sarajevo?

20 A. On that day, as far as I can remember, I heard one shell and that

21 one was fateful for me.

22 Q. My understanding is that at that time you were under work

23 obligation and that just before this happened you were digging trenches

24 at Igman?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4564

1 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber how did you get to Igman

2 from the place where you lived? How did you get to Igman where you were

3 digging trenches?

4 A. On foot, through the tunnel, beneath the airport.

5 Q. On Mount Igman, where you were digging trenches, did you notice

6 any artillery pieces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. No, I didn't notice any.

8 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber in which part of Igman this was. Could

9 you tell us more specifically?

10 A. Well, there's some curves up there, whatever they're called.

11 Actually, that's where there was trench-digging and canal-digging, and

12 that's where I was digging a canal that was supposed to take oil down to

13 Hrasnica. The depth was about 30 to 40 centimetres. And it seems to me

14 it was called Osmice, that area up there. We went -- I mean, well,

15 Hrasnica had not been occupied so we went through Hrasnica and then we

16 took the macadam road. I mean, it was called curves, Krivine [phoen] or

17 Kuke [phoen], something like that.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have in

20 e-court the witness's statement, P444. And let us focus on paragraph 6.

21 Q. Mr. Svraka, in view of what you've already said in paragraph 6

22 that is going to be on the screen before you in a second or two, could

23 you please explain the following to the Trial Chamber. The street that

24 leads to the covered market of Markale, is there a tram going down that

25 street? Is there a tram track there?

Page 4565

1 A. The market has two entrances. The first one was with steps, from

2 Vase Miskina street. I think that was the name of the street at the

3 time. And the other entrance is from the tram, left of the tram.

4 Perhaps there is one step or two as you walk from Carsija towards Ilidza.

5 It is the market of Markale.

6 Q. Is there a higher pavement there before you enter the Markale

7 market?

8 A. 15, 20 centimetres, your regular kind of pavement from the actual

9 asphalt road up to the pavement. It's about 15 centimetres. That's the

10 height.

11 Q. Would you explain to the Trial Chamber whether at that point in

12 time, in August 1995, there was an awning there of this facility that

13 entered -- that was at the entrance into Markale?

14 A. Perhaps there's two or three steps and then there's this wide

15 door. I mean, we keep confusing the market Pijaca Markale and the

16 market, Trznica Markale. As for Pijaca that is where cured meat was

17 sold, I think, and diary products. I mean, all sorts of things. And at

18 Markale, Pijaca that's where vegetables and fruit was sold.

19 Q. Let us not create any confusion there because of this

20 terminology. Let us call it Trznica.

21 A. Trznica, Markale, that's what it's called.

22 Q. And that is where you were wounded, in front of that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So this location, did it have an awning at the entrance or was

25 there a ledger there or something?

Page 4566

1 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

2 Q. So please let us look at paragraph 6 to jog your memory. This is

3 what you say: That together with two of your colleagues, Ramo and

4 Ibrahim, you were standing in the street, and they had their backs turned

5 to the building. And you say that you were facing them?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you say that the two of them had their backs turned to the

8 building, which building are you referring to specifically?

9 A. Trznica. In front of the entrance there.

10 Q. So we will agree that you were facing the entrance into Trznica,

11 the market?

12 A. I was facing my friends, my two friends, and we were talking and

13 smoking. And the entrance was 2 metres away from me, to the right. The

14 entrance into the market Trznica.

15 Q. And you were facing that entrance?

16 A. I was facing the two of them. And the entrance was like there,

17 where this young lady. That was the distance. I was looking at them and

18 talking to them. And the entrance was 2 metres away. Or was it a metre

19 away?

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. You're welcome.

22 Q. Now, could you please look at paragraph 7 of your statement

23 together with me. This is what you say:

24 "I did not hear the approach of the shell and I did not hear the

25 firing of the mortar, but after living through three years of war by

Page 4567

1 then, it was known that you do not hear the shell when it hits close to

2 you. When one is passing overhead or falling short or to the side of

3 you, then you can hear it. But not when it hits right beside you."

4 Please, could you explain to the Trial Chamber that you did not

5 hear any sound beforehand?

6 A. None. Just the detonation.

7 Q. This detonation was behind your back.

8 A. On the right-hand side, 7 metres away. Again, towards Ilidza

9 from Carsija. 7, 8, 5 metres. I've never measured it to this day, but

10 to this day the location is marked, and these places where people were

11 killed by shells are called the Sarajevo Roses and are marked.

12 Q. I'm going to try to explain things at least for myself, if not

13 for others once again. So the shell hit to your right. Am I correct in

14 saying that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the distance was, according to your estimate today, 7 to 10

17 metres from you.

18 A. Approximately.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, unless there's a translation issue,

20 page 58, line 19:

21 "At the right-hand side, 7 metres away. Again, towards Ilidza

22 from Carsija. 7, 8, 5 metres. I've never measured it to this day."

23 And then to put to the witness that it was 7 to 10 metres seems

24 to ignore what he just told you.

25 Please proceed, and rephrase your question.

Page 4568

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour. I think

2 that we do have a problem with the interpretation. But I don't have any

3 problem with that.

4 Q. I'm going to ask you now: To the best of your ability, what is

5 your assessment today? How far away was it from you.

6 A. 5 to 7 metres. I've already told you. I passed there hundreds

7 of times but usually by car or tram. Usually somebody brings me to the

8 bus or tram. I hitch-hike from home because I'm fed up with lying there

9 and sitting, and I go to the centre of town to Carsija, and I've never

10 passed by without looking at this place where I fell victim. You can

11 measure that tomorrow. You can send someone to measure it tomorrow.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. You're welcome.

14 Q. This is what I'd like to ask you now. You spoke to the

15 Prosecutor about your statement that was allegedly taken from you when

16 you were in hospital. Do you remember that part of your testimony?

17 A. Doctors, journalists came to the hospital. People came to visit.

18 They all had coats. I remember what I signed, but there are other

19 people's signatures as well and I am not acknowledging this.

20 Q. Let us look at this together.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D416 in e-court,

22 please.

23 Q. And while we're waiting for it, Mr. Svraka, I'm going to tell you

24 that this is a statement of 10th September 1995, and I only have a couple

25 of questions with regard to it.

Page 4569

1 So here it says that on the 10th of September, 1995, Amir Husic

2 and Faris Vehabovic gave statements. Do these names mean anything to

3 you?

4 A. No, I don't remember them at all.

5 Q. Thank you. The details provided in this statement about you, is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes. But this is not my signature.

8 Q. Is the content of the statement correct?

9 A. Well, some things are correct; some are not. For example, it

10 says I met my workmate Ramo Herceglija and the name of Ibrahim Hajvaz is

11 not mentioned at all. If I mentioned one, I should have mentioned both

12 of them. I didn't try to get up. I wasn't able to. I didn't notice

13 anything. I felt no pain. I didn't see anything.

14 Q. Is there anything in this statement that is incorrect?

15 A. There's lots of it. Do you want me to read it and then I'll tell

16 what you is incorrect?

17 Q. I'd rather not have you do that if you had an opportunity to read

18 it this morning.

19 A. Well, there are some correct and there are some incorrect things.

20 I did not put a signature here. He should have given it to me to sign it

21 but I didn't and I'm telling the truth.

22 Q. Let me just ask you this: Do you agree that that was at around

23 11th of -- at 11.00 on that date, 28th of August 1995?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, can we have in e-court

Page 4570

1 document P3, page 41.

2 Your Honours, for the sake of identification, that's a collection

3 of photographs and portions of the geographical map of the city of

4 Sarajevo. So let us look at page 41.

5 Q. Mr. Svraka, I'll try and ask you for your assistance. If you can

6 find your bearings in this image, Mula Mustafa Baseskije Street, can you

7 see it?

8 A. I can't find Carsija here. And there is Stari Grad to the right

9 and there's the city hall. I'm not an engineer.

10 Q. In this part of the image, can you recognise the place where the

11 Markale market was with respect to the Ferhadija Street?

12 A. Well, I have to ask you if this is the tram stop or, rather, the

13 tram track. I -- I cannot orientate myself properly. I know Carsija,

14 and the first stop is the cathedral.

15 Q. All right. If you cannot find your bearings, then I'm not going

16 to pursue this matter.

17 A. Here is Ferhadija.

18 Q. Do you see this building? Does the name of the street

19 Dzentica Cikman [phoen] mean anything to you?

20 A. No, I was not familiar with it.

21 Q. All right.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not going to

23 use this document with this witness. I think this is the Vasinska

24 Promenade.

25 Q. All right. Let me ask you only a couple of more questions. You

Page 4571

1 cannot tell us any more details about the weapon that fired this shell;

2 is that correct?

3 A. Yes. I'm not familiar with that kind of weapon. All I am

4 familiar with was the rifle that the JNA used to use and the automatic

5 rifle called Tomos [phoen] because I served on the border.

6 Q. Well, you don't know if that was a shell or a mine; is that

7 correct?

8 A. As far as I know, a mine leaves a trace, whereas a shell --

9 because I had an exercise after the army in Rudo, and I was moving the

10 shells for ten days as a reservist, and I know how big a shell is. Some

11 of them weigh 20 or 30 kilograms, and when a shell impacts on the soil,

12 it leaves a trace in the shape of a rose and there are different shells.

13 There are tank shells and other kinds. That is what I learned when I

14 served in the army in 1964 or 1965.

15 Q. Therefore, in view of the experience that you have, whether that

16 was a mine or a shell [as interpreted]?

17 A. Probably a shell. A mine should have been planted and then

18 somebody should step on it and set it off, if I'm not wrong.

19 Q. Can you tell me whether you had an opportunity to see from which

20 direction this shell could have come?

21 A. In the direction of the street. Because this market building,

22 and if you have a tram tracks and you have buildings on both sides that

23 are 10, 15, 20 metres high, I don't know. If you throw a stone or a

24 rock, it will sooner fall onto the roof rather than onto the street. But

25 I think that from Ilidza and Carsija, since it was an open road, and I

Page 4572

1 don't know what other places there are towards Carsija, such as Pale,

2 Romanija, and other locations. And I don't know where the shell came

3 from. I did not fire it.

4 Q. And with your permission, can we take a look again at document

5 P3. Only we need page 40 --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, there's no problem in using P3. At

7 the same time, I would urge you to ask questions to the witness on

8 matters he can tell us something about.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do so, Your Honours.

11 That is exactly why I wanted to look at page 42. Maybe the witness can

12 be of assistance, although he wasn't of much help when we viewed page 41.

13 Can we please enlarge the left middle part of this photograph.

14 Q. Mr. Svraka, can you see the cathedral here in the right middle

15 section of this photograph?

16 A. It is before Markale I. Are you referring to the church, or are

17 you referring to the tram stop called the cathedral? Because there is a

18 church there and we can see G8, Markale I, and G18, Markale II. And this

19 is how this Markale II incident is treated and it's in front of the

20 indoor market.

21 Q. So this photograph is of no help to you to orientate yourself?

22 A. Well, I don't know. The cathedral is a building. There is a

23 church there and there is a tram stop there. That's the first stop on

24 Carsija.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. I'm not going to use this photograph any

Page 4573

1 longer. Now one more question relating to your last answer in which you

2 said that you cannot say for certain from which direction the shell had

3 come?

4 A. No, I cannot.

5 Q. However, when you look at the direction of how this street runs,

6 was the street where you were --

7 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Could we first hear the question before

8 you --

9 Witness, do not answer the question yet.

10 Could you please finish your question, Mr. Stojanovic.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. I'm asking you if the street where you were when the shell fell,

13 was it running north/south or east/west? How good are you in knowing

14 your cardinal points?

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] One second. One second,

16 please.

17 Ms. Lee.

18 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I haven't -- I mean, I haven't objected

19 before in this line of questioning, but I do now. This witness has

20 already answered several times that he did not know where the shell was

21 coming from. Having him speculate is not going to assist Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the only question at this moment is whether

23 the street was running north/south or east/west. That was finally the

24 question, although you may have expected anything else.

25 Witness, can you tell us that street that you were in, whether

Page 4574

1 that was running north/south or east/west? If you don't know, tell us.

2 If you do know, please tell us as well.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. President, I don't know

4 where east is or where west is. I don't know. I know in Sarajevo where

5 the sun rises.

6 Now in direction of Carsija-Ilidza, one can --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness there is no problem. You say, I don't where

8 east/east, north/south is. That answers the question.

9 Mr. Stojanovic.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say from this place where

11 I am sitting now.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Thank you. On your way to the place where you were hit, did you

14 arrive from Ilidza or from Bascarsija?

15 A. I arrived to Markale market from Boljakov Potok. I walked down

16 Rajlovac Kaceska [phoen] Street past the tobacco factory. Everybody

17 knows where that is. Then passed the bus stop and the tram stop and

18 Marsal Tito barracks, and finally I reached the market. I met my sister

19 there. We finished our business --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me intervene at this moment. Could the parties

21 agree on the locations mentioned by the witness to be west of the town

22 centre?

23 MS. LEE: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I don't know which location

24 you mentioned.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the ones he mentioned, Boljakov Potok, tobacco

Page 4575

1 factory, Marsal Tito barracks. Is there any dispute about the Marsal

2 Tito barracks being west from Stari Grad, which is the old town centre?

3 MS. LEE: Being west? The Tito Marsal -- no. No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No. So apparently he passed through that. I'm a

5 bit surprised that the parties could not agree on Boljakov Potok, whether

6 that's east or west or where it is at all. It seems to be one of the

7 simplest things to do, to agree on that. The parties are invited to do

8 that. The witness has said that he from -- coming from house, going into

9 the direction of the Markale market, he passed Marsal Tito barracks which

10 is west from the old town.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. On your way to the place where you were hit, did you at any point

14 in time or place meet any TV crews or TV vans?

15 A. I can say that I didn't. 100 percent I didn't.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. You're welcome.

18 Q. And I'm going to finish with this question. Whilst you were

19 hospitalised at Kosevo, did you have an opportunity to notice that the

20 bombing of -- that the aerial bombing of the positions around Sarajevo

21 had started?

22 A. Yes. On the third day I heard nurses talking about it and they

23 were saying, Well, they have started to strike them. They were talking

24 about Jahorinski Potok and the weekend cottages, Potok, Jahorina,

25 Gorazde. I know these places because I used to work there as a builder.

Page 4576

1 Q. The nurse said they started striking them. Whom started striking

2 whom?

3 A. NATO was bombing the Serbs, the Serbian army. That's what I

4 heard.

5 MS. LEE: Objection, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee.

7 MS. LEE: I'm sorry, the question asks -- the question is the

8 nurse said they started to strike them. Who are they talking about?

9 This witness would not know who the nurse is talking about. This is a

10 statement of the nurses'.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We do not know yet. Is there about -- NATO bombing,

12 aerial strikes, is that something for which this witness is best placed

13 to provide evidence, or is it a matter when NATO started bombing, if

14 there was any such bombing, when it started. Isn't that a matter that is

15 well documented and could be easily agreed upon, I would say.

16 MS. LEE: My --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic? Or do you think that this witness,

18 hearsay through a nurse, would be the best source of evidence?

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this point in time,

20 Your Honour, I have this witness here. I tried to get this from the

21 witness in view of his statement. And I'm sure that there will be other

22 witnesses that will speak about that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

24 Ms. Lee, I think we should leave it to that at this moment.

25 Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the witness?

Page 4577

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one more area briefly,

2 Your Honours.

3 Q. Mr. Svraka, my understanding was that during one of these

4 operations the doctors warned you that in the abdominal area you have a

5 shrapnel that was still there; is that correct?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the answer.

7 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Could you please re-start your answer

8 because the interpreters could not hear you.

9 So the question was whether they warned you that in the abdominal

10 area there was still shrapnel. Is that correct. That was the question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, just a moment, please. It was

12 my leg that was operated on. One was cut off and the other one was

13 stitched up. Mended. And when I woke up in this room that used to be

14 called intensive care, and the first time they asked me, Grandpa, where

15 you feel pain? I mean, I was a grandfather even then. And I said it's

16 my stomach. Judges, Your Honours, it was my stomach that was painful,

17 and they touched me and they said, Has to be operated on.

18 Had I not said that I felt pain in my stomach I would have died,

19 not because of the leg but because of the stomach. I was in a coma or

20 sleeping or whatever it was during two days. I mean, I don't even know

21 when I woke up. It's not that I kept a calendar or something, and had I

22 not said that I had a stomachache I would have died on account of my

23 stomach. But anyway, when I woke up, Dr. Milosevic had performed an

24 operation on me. He was in Sarajevo.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

Page 4578

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear

2 Mr. Stojanovic. He is not speaking into his microphone.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the interpreters cannot hear you if

4 you do not talk into the microphone. You're turning it even further away

5 from you, but ...

6 Yes.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand. I'm sorry. I

8 apologise to the interpreters.

9 Q. Now this is what I'd like to ask you. After this operation, did

10 you keep the shrapnel that the doctors took out?

11 A. I kept it for years at home. It was as big as a cube of sugar,

12 and I have my letters of discharge of all the operations --

13 Q. But my point was that you do not have it any longer.

14 A. I don't have it in my stomach anymore. I don't have it at home

15 anymore.

16 Q. Thank you. And I'm sorry if this was too much of a burden for

17 you.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: This concludes then your cross-examination.

20 Ms. Lee, is there any need to ask further questions in

21 re-examination?

22 MS. LEE: I just wanted to make one -- have this witness make one

23 clarification.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope it's on a relevant matter.

25 Please proceed.