Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4822

 1                           Friday, 9 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             If there are no preliminaries, the witness can be escorted into

11     the courtroom.

12             Mr. Lukic, the Chamber has not yet decided on the admission of

13     some of the Philipps -- the report and the charts and the explanatory

14     notes.  Are there objections?  Let me take it one by one P451, that is

15     the two charts which are in one document, one for 1992, 1994.

16             MR. LUKIC:  We would have the same objections we have in our

17     written submissions, Your Honour, from before.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And would that be true for the explanatory

19     notes P452 and P453 as well?

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And then also for the alphabetical lists, the P454

22     and P455?

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  The Chamber will decide on the

25     matter.

Page 4823

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Sivac.  Mr. Sivac, before we

 3     continue, I would like to remind you that you are still bound by the

 4     solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that

 5     you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6             Mr. Shin, if you're ready, you may proceed.

 7             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8                           WITNESS:  NUSRET SIVAC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Examination by Mr. Shin: [Continued]

11        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Sivac.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   I would like to draw your attention to a particular topic I'll

14     ask you some questions about.  Was there a time when about 12 buses of

15     persons arrived at Omarska camp while you were detained there?

16        A.   Yes.  Sometime after the 20th of July we were in a room with

17     Mujo Murha and there was a sound coming from nearby, the sound of bus

18     engines.  Shortly afterwards, we heard guards shouting, we heard noise.

19     The guards were taking out of the buses that had arrived at Omarska and

20     only later would we learn that the buses were packed with the inhabitants

21     of the village of Brdo on the left bank of the Sana River, who had been

22     picked up in those villages when the ethnic cleansing began there.

23        Q.   Could you explain how it is that you learned that these persons

24     were from Brdo?

25        A.   Later at the Omarska camp I came across a number of my

Page 4824

 1     acquaintances from Brdo who arrived in those buses to Omarska.

 2        Q.   Do you recall the names of any of those persons whom you

 3     recognised in Omarska camp from Brdo?

 4        A.   Yes, and I talked to them.  That was Vahid Rizvanovic, a

 5     colleague of mine who worked for the security service;

 6     Mehmed Crljenkovic, aka Mesa, and there were a few other people from Brdo

 7     who had survived the arrival to the camp Omarska.

 8        Q.   What happened to those persons from Brdo who arrived in Omarska

 9     camp?

10        A.   They were taken out in groups and lined up against a wall

11     precisely in the room where we were.  Then we heard guards shouting, they

12     cocked their weapons, we heard horrible thumps of something being thrown

13     against the wall, we heard cries, screams, cries for help, and something

14     that made it very clear to us was that on arrival to the Omarska camp

15     they had to pass through this reception procedure, which means, in other

16     words, that they had to be beaten up properly, unfortunately.  Some of

17     those people did not survive that, that beating up.  They succumbed

18     immediately on the spot next to the wall.  Later on, we called this wall

19     the wailing and screaming wall.

20        Q.   Mr. Sivac, in the translation your answer has it that these

21     persons were taken out in groups and lined against a wall -- there's a

22     word unclear.  Lined up against a wall in the room where we were.  Were

23     these persons lined up in the room that you were or were they somewhere

24     else?  And if somewhere else, could you explain exactly where they were?

25        A.   Well, I was in the room with Burho and Mujo and that wall was the

Page 4825

 1     outer wall of the room where we were.  It was located on the north side

 2     and the wall was very thin.  At the upper level of this room were small

 3     windows through which we received air because it was horribly hot inside

 4     and there was a huge crowd of people.  Before that, the guards allowed us

 5     to open those windows in order to have as much air as possible.

 6        Q.   You explained that some of these persons succumbed immediately on

 7     the spot next to the wall.  Did you see any bodies at any point from

 8     these persons?

 9        A.   Later, the following day, when we were going from the tarmac to

10     answer the call of nature, the guards took us past the white house to do

11     it there.  And then next to the white house we saw a rather large group

12     of dead bodies.

13        Q.   Mr. Sivac, I would now like to move to another topic relating to

14     certain names of persons who may have been in Omarska.

15             MR. SHIN:  May I ask the Court Officer, please, to place 65 ter

16     28532 on the screen.  If possible for the witness could we focus on the

17     B/C/S translation, please.

18        Q.   Mr. Sivac, are you able to read that page on your screen?  If you

19     could just indicate yes or no and I'll ask you a question.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you recall that I asked you about a list of certain names

22     during preparation for your testimony here?  If you could just indicate

23     yes or no whether you recall that, please.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Could you please take a moment to review the information next to

Page 4826

 1     the names and then indicate where the information, although brief, is

 2     accurate?

 3        A.   Yes, the information is accurate.

 4             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender this --

 5     tender into evidence 65 ter 28532.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28532 becomes Exhibit P488,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

10             MR. SHIN:  May I ask the Court Officer to place 65 ter 28533 on

11     the screen, please.

12        Q.   Mr. Sivac, could you please take a moment to review this list of

13     names and -- let me ask you first:  Do you recall that we discussed these

14     names during the preparation for your testimony here?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Could you please take a moment to review the information next to

17     these names and then indicate whether the information - again, although

18     it is brief - whether that information is accurate.

19        A.   Yes.  Only the first name on the list reads Ljubija Solaja.  I

20     think that Miroslav -- oh, now I see that it has been corrected.  He was

21     originally from Ljubija and his name is written here as Ljubija Solaja,

22     but underneath that we see his correct name which is Miroslav Solaja.

23        Q.   Mr. Sivac, would you like any more time to review the brief

24     information placed next to the names or are you able to say that it is

25     otherwise accurate?

Page 4827

 1        A.   Yes, completely accurate.

 2             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, I would also tender into evidence

 3     65 ter 28533.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  There are no objections, but I have one question.

 5     If we read a name and the comment is "probably typo for Pehadzic," then

 6     we see that "Alija Behadzic" should be "Pehadzic," but what then?  I

 7     mean, what's then the probative value?  Is that a -- was that person in

 8     Omarska?  Was that person killed?  Was that person wounded?  Was that a

 9     guard at Omarska?  What we -- I do not understand that part of your list.

10     For the others I do understand, but ...

11             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honours, if I may.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. SHIN:  The name Alija Pehadzic is referred to elsewhere and I

14     will be in a position to provide that information as necessary.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So that is then a correction to the name Behadzic

16     found elsewhere.

17             MR. SHIN:  Yes, that's correct.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If there are no objections, Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28533 becomes Exhibit P489 [Realtime

20     transcript read in error "P589"], Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, I think that brings me to a total of

23     half an hour and that completes my examination.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Shin.

25             Mr. Lukic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

Page 4828

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I am, Your Honour.  Just give me half a minute

 2     to organise myself.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             Mr. Sivac, you'll be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is

 5     counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sivac.

 8        A.   Good morning.

 9        Q.   May we begin?

10        A.   Yes, we may.

11        Q.   We haven't seen each other for ten years.

12        A.   Time flies.

13        Q.   Yes.  Now I'm going to go back to the list, or rather, the two

14     lists shown to you by the OTP this morning, and these are the lists of

15     people whom you identified as being in Omarska.  The document numbers are

16     28532 and 28533, just to remind you.  Now, is it true that you did not

17     see the killing of those people, you only heard of that; is that correct?

18        A.   I'm going to wait a little after your question for the

19     interpretation to finish and then I'll start.

20             No, Mr. Lukic --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for those who read the transcript later, it is

22     P588 and P589, Mr. Lukic.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour 4, if I may just -- it's P488 and

24     P489.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it appears wrongly on the transcript.  488 is

Page 4829

 1     on page 5, line 6; and then on page 6, line 18, it says "P489" but that

 2     apparently is a -- "589" that apparently is a mistake.  65 ter 28533 has

 3     been assigned P489 and is admitted under that number.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Mr. Sivac, please go ahead.

 7        A.   No, Mr. Lukic.  The executioners did not allow anyone to watch

 8     while they were killing people.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  The Prosecutor's office tendered your statement and

10     portions of the transcript; however, some portions that we would like to

11     ask you about are not included therein.  So let us go through that.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly seek assistance with

13     regard -- with 65 ter number of the witness statement which is 28478, but

14     unfortunately I haven't written down the P number.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin --

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, now I have it.  It's P480.

17             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I think that takes care of

18     my --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Earlier you said that Hasan Talundzic was the first Muslim

22     appointed to the post of the SUP chief in Prijedor.  Do you remember that

23     testimony of yours?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Is that correct?

Page 4830

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   Do you recall who Sead Besic was?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Is it correct that he was at the head of the Prijedor SUP before

 5     Mr. Talundzic and that he was a Muslim?

 6        A.   No, Mr. Lukic.  He only had a Muslim name but he declared himself

 7     a Yugoslav.  According to the 1974 constitution, he was entitled to do

 8     that.

 9        Q.   The fact is that he was at the head of the Prijedor SUP after

10     Rajko Zigic left that post; is that correct?

11        A.   After Rajko Zizic passed away he led the SUP for a brief period

12     of time, and then after the first democratic election that post was

13     filled by the party SDA, the Party of Democratic Action, and they

14     appointed Hasan Talundzic.

15        Q.   Is it also true that Mr. Sead Besic was promoted and referred to

16     the position of the CSB Banja Luka chief?

17        A.   I don't know if he was promoted to a higher rank, but I do know

18     that he was transferred to work at the State Security Service in

19     Banja Luka.

20        Q.   You were a member of the League of Communists while you were

21     working at the SUP just like everybody else; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   After multi-party elections, were you a member of any other

24     party?

25        A.   No, I wasn't, Mr. Lukic.

Page 4831

 1        Q.   Now something relating to the geography of Prijedor.  Stari Grad,

 2     the old town, was between 800 and 1.000 metres away from the place of

 3     your residence; is that correct?

 4        A.   That was my initial impression, but I think the distance is

 5     shorter.  Now when I go to visit these places, I often realise that it's

 6     much shorter.

 7        Q.   How shorter approximately, can you tell us?

 8        A.   Between 300 and 500 metres.  There is the beginning of the

 9     Stari Grad neighbourhood.

10        Q.   Is it correct that on the day of attack on Prijedor the 30th of

11     May you were in Stari Grad?

12        A.   Mr. Lukic, that was not an attack on Prijedor.  That was an

13     attempt to liberate Prijedor and to install into power the legally

14     elected representatives of those authorities.  On that morning I was in

15     my flat and I stayed there the whole time.

16        Q.   You were first arrested on the 12th of May, 1992, by members of

17     the Prijedor SUP; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   They took you to the SUP building, handed over to Ranko Mijic,

20     the chief of the criminal investigation police?

21        A.   Yes, to the chief of the criminal investigation service,

22     Ranko Mijic.

23        Q.   When you were released from Omarska you talked with

24     Milos Jankovic; is that correct?

25        A.   You mean when I was first released or do you mean after my final

Page 4832

 1     release?

 2        Q.   Did you talk with Milos Jankovic on the 10th of June, which means

 3     that would be after your first release?

 4        A.   Well, I don't remember if it was after the first release, but I

 5     don't think it was.  I think that I spoke with Milos Jankovic much, much

 6     later, in September or October 1992, just before I left Prijedor.

 7        Q.   Then that would have to be corrected.  That means after your

 8     second release?

 9        A.   As far as I can remember, that is the case.

10        Q.   Do you recall that you asked him who signed your arrest warrant?

11        A.   Yes, I asked him that, among other things.

12        Q.   Is it correct that he told you that anyone from the SUP could

13     have signed that warrant?

14        A.   More or less that was his answer.

15        Q.   Is it true that you said that most often the orders were signed

16     by the Crisis Staff and people like Simo Drljaca, Dule Jankovic, and

17     Rajko Mijic?

18        A.   Well, that was what Milos Jankovic told me.

19        Q.   Simo Drljaca, Dure Jankovic, and Ranko Mijic were all members of

20     the Prijedor SUP; correct?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you try to always guide the Judges to the

23     relevant pages of P480 so that we are able -- for example, if you say

24     "should this be corrected," so that we know exactly what is there to be

25     corrected.

Page 4833

 1             MR. LUKIC:  The witness just corrected me that it was after his

 2     second release, not after his first release.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and -- but you are talking about the statement.

 4     Since you did not guide us to where it is in the statement, we do not

 5     know what is reflected in the statement immediately and --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  If we can see 1D408 on our screens and Your Honours

 7     would see that line of questions I just went through.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  1D40 --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  -- 8.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- or P480.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Or we can see P --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We work --

13             MR. LUKIC:  -- 480 --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

15             MR. LUKIC:  At page 29.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well I have it on my screen but -- that's no

17     problem, but I would like to know which page.

18             MR. LUKIC:  It's page 29.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  29.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the original page number, do you have that?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that should be --

22             MR. LUKIC:  The original page number is transcript number 6617,

23     lines 5 to 20.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the redacted portion?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly, that's why I have to use 1D408.

Page 4834

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  From this one we need page 67, lines 5 to 20.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Shin.

 4             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, if it's of assistance to my counsel,

 5     this refers to an arrest on the 10th of June, so perhaps that may be

 6     useful to clarify any confusion.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I think that we just did it with the witness.  He

 8     guided us that this conversation took place after his second release.  My

 9     question was in relation to the first release.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

12             [Interpretation] Could we go to the next page in the document

13     which is on the screen, and that is 1D480 --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  408.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to have a look at lines

16     14 through 18.  I'll read it out in English so that you can receive

17     proper interpretation.

18             The question was this:

19             [In English] "Was it publicly announced who was the leadership of

20     the municipality at that time?  Was that ever discussed on the radio?  Or

21     who was giving orders for the events in Prijedor?"

22             And your answer at line 17, I quote:

23             "All these things happened as a result of the directives issued

24     by the Crisis Staff."

25             [Interpretation] My question is whether you accept this part of

Page 4835

 1     your testimony in view of the assessment you had made?

 2        A.   Mr. Lukic, what period does this refer to, this question?  Or is

 3     this merely an assertion of yours?  I can expand if you wish.

 4        Q.   I'll guide you.  As of the moment when the Crisis Staff was

 5     established, which was sometime after the 20th or 22nd of April when the

 6     Prijedor municipality Crisis Staff was established.

 7        A.   Yes, that was the official date, but the Crisis Staff had existed

 8     before.  It's just that they worked covertly.  They were just waiting for

 9     the right moment.

10        Q.   But while they were working covertly, they were not making public

11     announcements I presume.  So we are talking about an announcement which

12     is after the 20th of April.

13        A.   Yes.  When such announcements or ultimatums were cunningly signed

14     by the information secretariat attached to the newly established Serb

15     municipality of Prijedor.

16        Q.   Do you accept this part of your testimony, the part I just read

17     out?

18        A.   Yes.  Crisis Staffs issued ultimatums and announcements.

19        Q.   [In English] "All these things happened as a result of the

20     directives issued by the Crisis Staff."

21             [Interpretation] There was discussion about orders concerning the

22     events in Prijedor?

23        A.   Yes, that's crystal clear.  I can repeat.  All those directives

24     and instructions issued after the take-over were aimed at the inhabitants

25     of Prijedor municipality.  First curfew was introduced; second, all media

Page 4836

 1     was put under control, that is to say Radio Prijedor and the "Kozarski

 2     Vijesnik" newspaper; thirdly, there was a general call-up for the Serbian

 3     population; fourthly, all non-Serbs had to hand-over their weapons to the

 4     barracks in Urije, those who were supposed to arrive in convoys bringing

 5     in weapons were supposed to post white flags; fifthly, before the 20th of

 6     May all economic activity was to cease and workers allowed to go home.

 7     All schools and kindergartens had to stop working before the 20th of May.

 8     Anyone of sound mind in Prijedor could realise what was in store.

 9        Q.   We haven't established whether you confirm what you had stated

10     earlier, which was that it all came as part of directives and

11     instructions of the Crisis Staff?

12        A.   Yes, I had an informant of mine, a source, and I know that the

13     first time the name "Crisis Staff" appeared officially in documents

14     around the 12th or the 13th of May.  All those ultimatums which were

15     basically drafted by the Crisis Staff were issued together with the

16     information secretariat.  It was a very cunning procedure.

17        Q.   At that time immediately before the conflict, but after the war

18     had started in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were frequent skirmishes and a

19     lot of propaganda; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What was your observation?  Did people become distrustful of one

22     another?

23        A.   Well, the situation spread throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

24     same thing applied to Prijedor.

25        Q.   How about the inter-ethnic relations between the peoples, did

Page 4837

 1     they become contaminated?

 2        A.   Yes.  It was specifically obvious in Prijedor because it used to

 3     be a very tolerant environment where all ethnic communities lived

 4     together; however, contaminated by the propaganda which came from Serbia

 5     and Pale as well as from Prijedor itself.

 6        Q.   Let me put the next question to you.  Is it correct that

 7     inter-ethnic relations were quite bad as early as 1991?

 8        A.   I wouldn't put it that way.

 9        Q.   Were there no arguments or conflicts concerning mobilisation?

10        A.   It's a very complex issue.  The problem was an ideological one.

11     All Serbs wanted to live in a Greater Serbia which would basically be

12     some kind of ex-Yugoslavia, whereas all other ethnicities in line with

13     the decisions of the international community and its representatives in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina wanted to become independent, to see Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina and -- become an independent state like Croatia and Slovenia

16     had.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Sivac, you are an old time Prijedor resident.

18     Was it your impression at the time that many crimes were committed out of

19     revenge?

20        A.   What period do you have in mind?

21        Q.   When the clashes began.

22        A.   Clashes, that's a different thing.  Before the clashes and during

23     the time of expectation, if I can put it that way, in 1991 - or time of

24     anticipation, whenever Serb warriors returned from the theatre of war in

25     Slavonia, in Croatia, there were always serious incidents and murders out

Page 4838

 1     of revenge, of course.

 2        Q.   Did the war contribute to the fact that criminals found fruitful

 3     ground for robbing and looting?

 4        A.   Criminals from Prijedor - and I know them all because I had

 5     worked for 20 years for the security service - immediately took part in

 6     those Serb army units.  They went to wage war in Western Slavonia, not

 7     because of their ideological beliefs; they went to loot and to be issued

 8     with weapons after the fact they were mobilised.  Once they returned from

 9     war, they used those weapons to do evil and to loot.  One of the most

10     notorious units that was part of the 43rd Brigade and later the

11     5th Kozara Brigade was the Suha Rebra [phoen] unit.  They were criminals

12     from Bosanski Novi who had been mobilised into the VRS.

13        Q.   I wanted to ask you something about your statement.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P480, please.  We need the second

15     page.

16        Q.   In lines 7 through 10 you discuss Milos Jankovic.  You say that

17     it was his task to ethnically cleanse your section where you worked.

18     When did Milos Jankovic arrive in your section or, firstly, what was the

19     title of your department?  We have "section" here.

20        A.   According to the organisational chart it was the communications

21     centre for encryption.  I told you earlier that Milos Jankovic was

22     appointed head of that part of service in 1983, I believe.

23        Q.   And you left in 1989?

24        A.   The 1st of January, 1990.

25        Q.   During what period was Jankovic engaged in ethnically cleansing

Page 4839

 1     your organisation?

 2        A.   I don't know whether he had received any orders to do that.  I

 3     think it was his personal choice.  I and a colleague of mine asked to be

 4     transferred.  We wanted to leave the service, thus leaving only one

 5     Muslim person behind.  Serbs were placed in our positions.  It used to be

 6     a service which was very careful of the ethnic key and its application,

 7     whereas during that period of time it basically became a service of only

 8     one ethnicity where only one Muslim remained.

 9        Q.   So apparently you and another Muslim left the section?

10        A.   Yes, his name appears in my previous testimony.  If need be, I

11     can repeat the name.

12        Q.   We have the name.  Were any Serbs and Croats leaving the service

13     at the same time?  Did anyone retire?

14        A.   No, not from my part of the service.  I'm only discussing my

15     section.  As for the entire security service, of course everyone made use

16     of their legal right to retire when they believed they had met the

17     conditions to do so.

18        Q.   Was Jankovic doing this, that is to say, was he ethnically

19     cleansing the service while Sead Besic was his superior who was a Muslim?

20        A.   Yes, he was doing it precisely at the time when Sead Besic was

21     the head of the security service.

22        Q.   I presume that Milos Jankovic too was a member of the League of

23     Communists?

24        A.   That is likely.  He wouldn't have been employed in our service

25     had he not been a member.

Page 4840

 1        Q.   This conduct of his, was it not unacceptable according to the

 2     ideology of the League of Communists?

 3        A.   Mr. Lukic, after 1991 and Tito's death, the League of Communists

 4     of Yugoslavia was disintegrating, it was falling apart.

 5        Q.   The fact is that it was one-party until the multi-party elections

 6     in 1990?

 7        A.   Yes, but not in the same format and not in the same way that they

 8     did while Tito was alive.

 9        Q.   Did Milos Jankovic continue this practice even when

10     Hasan Talundzic was appointed his chief?

11        A.   He did, but please do not ask me about that period because I had

12     already left the security service by then.

13        Q.   Thank you.  On page 11 of the compilation of transcript which

14     constitutes your statement, lines 24 and 25, you speak about the columns

15     of people coming from Raskovac and Skela.  They were all arriving to

16     Prijedor; is that correct?

17        A.   No.  Those people were from Prijedor.  These are just

18     neighbourhoods in Prijedor, in the suburbs of Prijedor.

19        Q.   So where were they coming then to?

20        A.   Well, they were coming from these suburban areas, in the area

21     before the building where I lived which is the very centre of Prijedor

22     town.

23        Q.   Were there any fightings in their neighbourhoods?

24        A.   No, there was no fighting either in Raskovac, Skela, or --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last name

Page 4841

 1     of the neighbourhood.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could the witness please repeat the last name

 3     he mentioned of that neighbourhood.  You said Raskovac, Skela, or ... ?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And Zagrad, not Stari Grad.

 5     Stari Grad is a different area.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   A moment ago you mentioned the curfew.  Is it true that the

 8     curfew was applicable to all civilians and that Serb, Croat, or Muslim

 9     civilians were not allowed to move around after the curfew?

10        A.   That's how it was supposed to be, but all that was applicable to

11     non-Serbs only.  All the Serbs were wearing uniforms and nobody could

12     have prohibited them from moving after the curfew.

13        Q.   I presume that there were Serbs with work obligation, women who

14     were not dressed in uniforms, were they the subject of that same curfew?

15     That was my question.

16        A.   Very few of them.  There were only very few of them who had work

17     obligation.  For the most part the Serb population was in uniform already

18     and had weapons issued to them.

19        Q.   On page 69 --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you received only answer to half of your

21     question.

22             Were the Serbian women allowed to move around, Mr. Sivac?  If you

23     look at Mr. Lukic, but I'm putting the question which -- of course it's

24     in translation to you, but -- yes.  Were the Serbian women free to move

25     around?

Page 4842

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know, Your Honour.

 2     During the curfew I stayed indoors in my flat, and I had no way of seeing

 3     that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Can we now have page 69, please, of your

 7     statement, 6690.  We need lines 21 through 25.

 8             You spoke about Serbs who were returning from the front line,

 9     mostly tank crews who came to Trnopolje to pick women and young girls.

10     During the period that you are talking about you were not in Trnopolje -

11     is that correct? - you just heard this second hand.

12        A.   Yes.  When we arrived at Trnopolje we received this information

13     from the inmates who had been in Trnopolje at that specific time.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need next page, which is page

15     70, lines 3 and 4 --

16        Q.   -- where you say that if anyone were to leave Trnopolje had to

17     fulfil a number of conditions.  One of the conditions was to hand over

18     his money and other valuables.  In your view, was that a criminal

19     activity?

20        A.   I know a number of people who managed to leave the Trnopolje camp

21     in that manner.  Yes, it was a criminal activity that was pursued by

22     Slobodan Kuruzovic and the Balaban brothers in the Trnopolje camp who

23     were military policemen and who were his escort.

24        Q.   Did you yourself hand over the money in order to be released or

25     did you leave the camp in some other way?

Page 4843

 1        A.   I left the camp in some other way.

 2        Q.   On this same page, page 70, you spoke about the wired fence that

 3     was surrounding one part of the area where people were placed.  This

 4     wired fence in Trnopolje that you described, was it pulled down before

 5     the arrival of TV crews and foreign journalists or was that done after

 6     they had left?

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, I don't know which TV crew you're referring to because

 8     several TV crews and groups of journalists visited Trnopolje.

 9        Q.   Here you mention that Zeljko Mejakic, the Omarska commander had

10     brought several foreign TV crews.

11        A.   I'm waiting for the interpretation.  Mr. Lukic, Zeljko Mejakic

12     did indeed bring a number of journalists but only a few days later when

13     this wire fence was removed.  I understood that you asked me about the

14     visit by Penny Marshal and that was the time when this wire fence was

15     still in existence.  After spending a few days at Trnopolje camp, the

16     administration of the camp decided in the aftermath of the broadcast of

17     the shots there made by Penny Marshal, I suppose that that was the time

18     when the administration decided to remove the fence.  So a few days after

19     that, this crew led by the camp commander, Zeljko Mejakic, arrived.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if this would be a suitable time for a

21     break.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The break will be slightly longer today for very

24     practical reasons.

25             Could the witness already follow the usher.

Page 4844

 1             We take a break of approximately a half an hour.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we'll resume at 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 7             Meanwhile, I use the time for the following, and I'm addressing

 8     mainly the Defence.  But for a number of MFI's, the parties have not yet

 9     provided English translations or final English translations.  The parties

10     are instructed to review the list of the following MFI's and report back

11     to the Chamber by next Tuesday.  It's about D65, D67, D59, D47, D48, D40,

12     and D81.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, once you're ready, please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I am ready.

16        Q.   Mr. Sivac, now I'd like to discuss Kozarac with you because

17     that's also a subject that you addressed in your statement.  Do you know

18     that in Kozarac there were 3.500 registered combatants as part of the

19     Muslim Bosniak forces of Kozarac?

20        A.   That information is wrong.  That's a fabrication that the media

21     disseminated, and I'm referring here to Simo Drljaca and the rest of

22     them.

23        Q.   Do you have any information as to how many combatants there were?

24        A.   I don't have accurate information, but I'm sure that the number

25     was far, far lower than that.

Page 4845

 1        Q.   Is it a fact that on the 25th of May the military column moving

 2     towards Prijedor was attacked and the column was coming from Banja Luka?

 3        A.   That information is incorrect too.  This was taken only as a

 4     pretext and as an excuse to shell and attack Kozarac.

 5        Q.   So was the army from Banja Luka or were they from Prijedor?

 6        A.   Let me tell you this, Mr. Lukic:  The entire main road between

 7     Prijedor and Banja Luka at the time was controlled by the VRS and it was

 8     completely passable and accessible.

 9        Q.   My question was if you knew whether those military personnel were

10     from Banja Luka or from Prijedor?

11        A.   Well, I'm telling you that there was no army and there was no

12     convoy.  That's a fabrication that was disseminated in order to raise

13     tensions.

14        Q.   Is it true -- is it true that the first conflict broke out in

15     Jakupovici?

16        A.   No, that is not correct.  Only towards the end of the ethnic

17     cleansing of Kozarac a conflict broke out in Jakupovici.  That was a

18     revenge of Momcilo Radinovic, aka Cica, and a group of the residents of

19     Jakupovici.

20        Q.   Had you heard that soldier Jovan Zgonjanin was killed and he was

21     at the head of the column in a truck?

22        A.   That information is also wrong, Mr. Lukic.  Even the most zealous

23     purveyors and conveyers of this information, such as "Kozarski Vjesnik"

24     and Radio Prijedor said that only something allegedly happened in general

25     terms, that a column had allegedly been attacked.  And the name of the

Page 4846

 1     soldier that you mention is completely wrong because if that were true

 2     they would have published his name.  This soldier was killed during the

 3     ethnic cleansing of Kozarac.

 4        Q.   You were not in Kozarac at the time; is that correct?

 5        A.   No, I wasn't.  The capture of Kozarac took place and I was

 6     following the events through the media only.  There was almost a live

 7     broadcast provided by Radio Prijedor of the Serb capture of Kozarac.

 8        Q.   I suppose that you also did not take part in the arming of people

 9     of Kozarac and that you don't know what kind of weapons they had?

10        A.   No, I did not take part in the army -- arming of any group.

11     According to the information that I have, the people of Kozarac who had a

12     number of weapons, those weapons were mostly infantry weapons and a few

13     Zoljas, rocket-launchers, that each of the member had in his arsenal.

14        Q.   Were you aware that at one point on the 25th of May the fighting

15     stopped and that people who put up resistance in Kozarac were called upon

16     to surrender and end the fighting?

17        A.   At the request of Osmo Didovic, the police commander of Kozarac

18     who used radio communication to get in touch with Radmilo Zeljaja who was

19     leading the operation of the capture of Kozarac, the fighting was

20     suspended for a while; however, Zeljaja put forth a condition that the

21     policemen from the Kozarac police station must surrender unconditionally

22     at the -- with -- led by Mr. Didovic.  At the time it was under the

23     police station of Prijedor, and during peace time it was manned only by

24     ten policemen.  The commander of the Kozarac police station,

25     Osmo Didovic, led the column of the Kozarac police officers.  And at the

Page 4847

 1     forward command post where Radmilo Zeljaja was he -- they surrendered

 2     themselves directly to him.  However, that was not enough and they were

 3     executed in the vicinity of that command post.

 4        Q.   So you were told by others; correct?

 5        A.   That is right.

 6        Q.   However, the negotiations failed and the fighting resumed on the

 7     25th?

 8        A.   When Osmo Didovic and the group of policemen surrendered and when

 9     the rest heard what had happened to them, there was panic.  Any kind of

10     resistance in Kozarac had been dealt with much before that and the

11     population was simply now trying to save their lives because the shelling

12     was resumed.  There was random shelling of the entire area of Kozarac.

13     Some fled in panic towards Mount Kozara while others surrendered to the

14     Serb army and police.

15        Q.   Is it also correct that many civilians arrived in Prijedor after

16     the fighting was stopped?

17        A.   That's quite interesting.  Only a small portion of the population

18     managed to reach Prijedor by routes unknown to me.  However, a small

19     group was placed in the area of Puharska while another bigger group which

20     was in front of the gym in Prijedor was put on buses and taken to the

21     Trnopolje camp.

22        Q.   Did you know that those wounded in Kozarac were taken to the

23     hospital in Prijedor?

24        A.   I have firsthand information on that account.  The drivers who

25     drove the two ambulances told me about that in the camp.  Near the

Page 4848

 1     forward command post where Radmilo Zeljaja was, as well as the command of

 2     Serb attacks on Kozarac, they were made to abandon their ambulances and

 3     taken to the camp.  Those wounded who were in the ambulances were killed

 4     on the spot.

 5        Q.   So it is your testimony today that the wounded from Kozarac were

 6     not taken to the Prijedor hospital?

 7        A.   I only know about the two vehicles, and if you want me to I can

 8     cite the names of the drivers.  The two vehicles were destroyed and the

 9     wounded people inside killed.  I don't know whether some other people

10     managed to reach the Prijedor hospital by other means or in another

11     way - that may well be - but I don't know anything about that.

12        Q.   Do you know of a counter attack on Kozarac in an attempt to get

13     it back by Muslim forces headed by Kemal Alagic?

14        A.   Mr. Lukic, this is a farce, it's ridiculous.  Kemal Alagic --

15     well, Divjak was in the area of Ljubija.  In order to reach Kozarac --

16     well, it was impossible.  It's not true.  It was a fabrication which may

17     have been carried by the media.  I've never heard of that and it never

18     came about.

19        Q.   Very well.  Did you hear that on the 3rd of May an SDA war staff

20     was formed in Hambarine and their seat was in a bunker on Orahovo hill?

21        A.   I hear this for the first time and I was not a member of the SDA.

22        Q.   Is it true that the commander of units in Kozarac was Sead Cirkin

23     who at the time was an active-duty military officer?

24        A.   Yes, that's what I heard.  Once he left the JNA he went back to

25     his native town of Kozarac in an attempt to establish some kind of

Page 4849

 1     Territorial Defence.

 2        Q.   The policeman from Kozarac whom you mentioned took part in the

 3     fighting; correct?

 4        A.   Probably.  It was their duty to protect the civilians and the

 5     population of Kozarac village.

 6        Q.   Do you know whether any of them were killed in combat?

 7        A.   Could be.  I don't know about that, but I do know about the group

 8     headed by their commander.  I know that they were cruelly murdered after

 9     they had surrendered.

10        Q.   On page 94 we have a redaction.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D414, page 80.

12     It is transcript page 13258 of the 16th of August, 2010.

13        Q.   There you say -- you begin discussing Hambarine.

14             [In English] "There was still a decree in force at the time

15     issued by the legal authorities at the municipal level in Prijedor,

16     stating that in the enclave where the Muslims were in the majority, there

17     had to be check-points formed which were to serve to check any Serb

18     soldiers who frequently tried to enter the enclave drunk and to prevent

19     them from doing so.  They were supposed to hand over their weapons at

20     such check-points and on their way out they would be given their weapons

21     back."

22             [Interpretation] Please tell us where we can find this decree or

23     whatever the legal document was called.

24        A.   That decree or that regulation or that approval for check-points

25     to be established in ethnically pure enclaves was put into force by the

Page 4850

 1     illegally elected authorities with the participation of Serbs because

 2     there were frequent complaints by the residents, inhabitants of those

 3     enclaves, of such incidents taking place.  It is not only that Muslims

 4     had a right to set up check-points in such situations, but also Serbs in

 5     their ethnically pure Serb enclaves were entitled to establish such

 6     check-points to control entry.

 7        Q.   Did you see that decree?

 8        A.   I did not.  However, such information was broadcast on

 9     Radio Prijedor.  It was also published in the "Kozarski Vjesnik"

10     newspaper in January or February 1992.

11        Q.   You know that SFOR had collected all documentation pertaining to

12     the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor as well as the Prijedor SUP and

13     Kozarski Vjesnik as well as that of the hospital in Prijedor.  Such a

14     legal document has never been shown here.

15        A.   I don't know what kind of documents they found.  I do know,

16     however, that it was agreed by the then-authorities, the legally elected

17     authorities and representatives in Prijedor to have it done.  In such

18     arrangements, Radmilo Zeljaja and Vladimir Arsic who were the barracks

19     commanders also took part as well as other commanders of the Serb

20     war-time units.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, would you please remind Mr. Mladic that

22     there should be no discussions, no consultations, no talking in court,

23     consultations to be during the break.  This is the last warning for

24     today.  Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 4851

 1        Q.   In the same document, page 81, which is the next page, you

 2     discuss an incident at a check-point in Hambarine.  You say that there

 3     were six drunken Serbs in a single car who caused an incident.  The

 4     patrolman at the check-point asked them to surrender their weapons,

 5     promising that they would return them once they came back.  However, the

 6     people in the vehicle opened fire and the result was two dead Serb

 7     soldiers and a number of wounded.  That is lines 1 through 6 on this

 8     page.  First of all, do you know now that there were two Croats in that

 9     vehicle as well?

10        A.   I knew it the very day of the incident.  I knew that there were

11     two Croats who were members of the VRS.

12        Q.   How many Muslims were wounded in that incident?

13        A.   According to the information I have, there were three wounded

14     Muslims.  One was called Ferid Sikiric who was seriously wounded and

15     transported to the Prijedor hospital.

16        Q.   Do you know the names of the other two?

17        A.   I think one was a Ejupovic and another Ramulic, Aziz Aliskovic,

18     and another two men, cousins of his, who were also present at the

19     check-point when the incident took place fled.

20        Q.   Our information is to the extent that no Muslims were wounded and

21     the Serbs did not open fire whatsoever.  Do you assert that that is

22     incorrect?

23        A.   I do.  Here in the courtroom I had an opportunity to view some

24     footage where Ferid Sikiric was interviewed in the Prijedor hospital

25     following his wounding.  In detail he explained how things developed.

Page 4852

 1     For the Court's benefit, Ferid Sikiric, once he had provided an interview

 2     for the Serbian television, was taken from the Prijedor hospital and

 3     killed somewhere outside the hospital despite the fact that he had been

 4     seriously wounded.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber feels that it is not very

 6     much assisted by having the two versions where this witness apparently

 7     has no firsthand knowledge of much of it.  Now, of course, hearsay is not

 8     prohibited, but then to hear your version and then the witness saying

 9     that it's not true and that he saw once on television this or that.

10     Let's try and stick as close as possible to what the facts are the

11     witness observed.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   At the time of call-ups in the fall of 1991, in September, the

14     Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina were against the JNA; is that a fair

15     assessment?

16        A.   It is not.  Muslims in Bosnia were against being mobilised.  They

17     were not against the JNA.

18        Q.   Is it correct that the leadership of the SDA in Prijedor was

19     against the presence of the JNA in the area of Prijedor municipality in

20     1991?

21        A.   They simply wanted that the JNA, which was still the Yugoslav

22     People's Army, to conduct themselves in a fair and appropriate manner

23     when found in such a large town.

24        Q.   Is it correct that the SDA president in Prijedor tried to stop a

25     JNA column as early as July or August 1991?

Page 4853

 1        A.   One of such columns used force on the streets of Prijedor.  It

 2     was a show of strength.  The tanks paced or rolled up and down the

 3     streets of Prijedor causing fear and panic.  Upset by such military

 4     conduct, Mirza Mujadzic used his own vehicle and placed it in the middle

 5     of one of the streets.  By that fact alone, he managed to stopped the

 6     tanks.  There was a brief verbal argument and the situation was tense.

 7     However, after a short while the tanks went on their way.

 8        Q.   Due to the tensions and everything that was going on in Bosnia,

 9     people of all ethnicities were leaving Bosnia and Prijedor as early as

10     the beginning of 1992; is that correct?

11        A.   It is not correct.  The Serbs were not leaving Prijedor.

12     Prijedor was abandoned only by Muslims and Croats.

13        Q.   The head of the National Defence Secretariat as of the

14     multi-party elections in 1990 was Becir Medunjanin; correct?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   He was an SDA member?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   At the head of military unit was a Serb, Zeljaja or Arsic, either

19     of the two?

20        A.   Well, they rotated in that position.

21        Q.   Military units could not be manned without the participation of

22     Becir Medunjanin because he had the records of military conscripts in his

23     hands?

24        A.   As far as I know, the records of able-bodied men were kept at the

25     Secretariat for National Defence.

Page 4854

 1        Q.   Is it also true that Medunjanin obstructed as much as he could

 2     the mobilisation?

 3        A.   Becir Medunjanin, chief of the draft office in Prijedor, was

 4     following the instructions that he was receiving from the republican

 5     secretariat in Sarajevo and he had to comply with their decisions.  You

 6     know the doctrine that was in place in the former state, which is to say

 7     that all military structures were under the control of civilian

 8     authorities, at least that's how it should have been.

 9        Q.   The instructions that Medunjanin was receiving were such that he

10     was instructed to obstruct the mobilisation, those received from

11     Sarajevo?

12        A.   Well, neither Zeljaja nor Arsic had a right to organise the

13     mobilisation in their own way.  That required a decision to be taken by

14     the Secretariat for National Defence or at least in agreement with them.

15     As it is, it would have been a private army of Zeljaja or Arsic.

16        Q.   Then based on what did they request those lists?  Was it

17     somebody's decision or did they decide themselves to carry out a kind of

18     private mobilisation?

19        A.   I don't know why they asked for those lists because all these war

20     time units that they headed were well manned.  They were very actively

21     involved in the theatre of war in Western Slavonia and Croatia in 1991.

22        Q.   Maybe I didn't put my question correctly.  Is it true that the

23     mobilisation carried out in 1991 in September and in early 1992 was

24     legal?

25        A.   Mr. Lukic, you are reading only one section of that law.

Page 4855

 1             Your Honours, let me tell you this:  It is true that there is an

 2     article in the said law which says that if there is an attack on

 3     Yugoslavia, a general mobilisation must be carried out and all

 4     able-bodied men must respond to it.  However, here Mr. Lukic omitted to

 5     read further on.  There's another article in the law which says that if,

 6     or rather, it reads like this:  No one has the right to mobilise a person

 7     to join a military formation that would go out and commit crimes in

 8     contravention of the international conventions and laws on human rights

 9     to which Yugoslavia was a signatory.  This time around the political

10     leadership in Sarajevo tried to explain it in this manner:  By saying

11     that nobody attacked Yugoslavia and therefore no one is bound to respond

12     to the mobilisation, because if one goes to fight in a war you will have

13     to kill members of the peoples who only a few months before that used to

14     live side by side with us.  That law could be applied only in the event

15     of an external attack on Yugoslavia.

16        Q.   I have read quite a few military regulations, but I have never

17     come across such a provision.  Can you please enlighten me and tell me

18     which law you were referring to?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we're entering in a legal debate rather

20     than anything else.  I don't know whether this witness who may have

21     opinions about these matters but is not called as an expert in these

22     matters, to what extent this witness can assist us.  Just for you to know

23     that this is of some concern to me.  I'm not going to stop you because --

24     but please be aware of the limited importance of a debate with a

25     non-trained lawyer in these matters.

Page 4856

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would have only one

 2     follow-up question.  Actually, I would let the witness to answer to quote

 3     the law where he said he found this article or provision.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If he's able to do so, he's invited to do so.

 5             Do you have the article you just quoted -- you referred to, do

 6     you have -- can you quote it?  Do you have the text somewhere available?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That answers the question.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             [Interpretation] Can we please have in e-court Exhibit 1D411.  We

12     need page 3, transcript number 6777.

13        Q.   In line 9 to 13 you say:

14             [In English] "All those who refused to join the Serb army who

15     were Muslims and Croats were accused chiefly of this.  This was one of

16     the chief allegations made against them, one of the main reasons for

17     their being taken to the camps, to Omarska and Keraterm."

18             [Interpretation] And then in line 4 you say the following:

19             [In English] "Let me explain why they needed those lists.  Later

20     on in 1992 when the Serb Democratic Party with the help of the army and

21     police took over power in Prijedor, they made use of these lists to

22     accuse all those who had not reported -- who had not responded to the

23     call-up ..."

24             [Interpretation] Would you say again today that the main reason

25     for people being detained and imprisoned at Omarska and Keraterm was that

Page 4857

 1     they failed to respond to the call-up?

 2        A.   That was not the only reason.  That was only one of the reasons.

 3        Q.   Is it true that all Muslim journalists, Muslim and Croat

 4     journalists, from September 1991 onwards used to refer to the JNA in

 5     their reports as the former JNA?

 6        A.   Mr. Lukic, I don't know which journalists you have in mind, all

 7     the journalists in Bosnia-Herzegovina or just the journalists from

 8     Prijedor?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 4 of this document

10     which is the next page.  The transcript page is 6778 and we need lines 9

11     to 13.

12        Q.   The question was:

13             [In English] "Your television company, from the beginning of

14     September 1991, did it tell you when you were reporting on the JNA, to

15     use the term 'The former JNA'?"

16             And your response in lines 12 and 13 was, I quote:

17             "Yes.  Yes.  All the journalists of Bosniak and Croatian

18     nationality used this term."

19             So can you please tell us, does this refer to Prijedor or was it

20     something that came from the central office in Sarajevo, meaning that it

21     pertained to the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also is your

22     statement correct?

23        A.   Yes.  That was the decision by the central office in Sarajevo and

24     that's how the former Yugoslav army was designated, not only by the

25     Muslim journalists but also by the Serbs who stayed behind in Sarajevo.

Page 4858

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Central office of what?  Witness, could you ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the editorial office of

 3     Sarajevo television with whom we maintained a permanent contact and that

 4     was the news and political section of TV Sarajevo.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Was this use of this word, was that limited to this

 6     television company or was it also in newspapers and was it more broadly

 7     applied?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that was applied in

 9     the print media as well, but I don't know exactly.  Believe me, I cannot

10     remember when such recommendation came from the editorial office, whether

11     that was in 1991 or maybe much, much later.  I don't know the date.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The reason why I'm asking because the question by

13     which Mr. Lukic introduced the matter was by a general reference to

14     journalists, whereas the questions here seem to focus on the television

15     company.  So therefore I would -- wanted to understand how broad or

16     narrow this habit was.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             [Interpretation] We need page 5 now in this document, 1D414.  The

20     transcript page is 6779 and we need lines 13 to 15.

21        Q.   You say:

22             [In English] "... I visited and I had an opportunity to visit

23     only a few polling stations, a large number of Serbs voted for an

24     independent and sovereign Bosnia."

25             [Interpretation] So you said today that the Serbs were in favour

Page 4859

 1     of remaining within Yugoslavia.  Now here you said that a large number of

 2     Serbs voted in favour of an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Can you

 3     reconcile these two assertions?

 4        A.   Mr. Lukic, it can be explained very easily.  The plebiscite that

 5     the Serbs had organised was completely unconstitutional and illegal --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we -- when I read your answer at the time is

 7     that:

 8             " ... I think that according to the statements made by members of

 9     the electoral commissions I visited, and I had an opportunity to visit

10     only a few polling stations, a large number of Serbs voted for an

11     independent and sovereign Bosnia."

12             So what apparently the witness is doing is quoting what the

13     members of the electoral commissions stated, whereas in your question,

14     Mr. Lukic, you asked:

15             "Now here you said that a large number of Serbs voted in favour

16     of an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."

17             That's not what the witness said.  The witness said is that this

18     was what the members of the electoral commission told him, and further in

19     that answer it's clear that he cannot quantify that in any way.  Let's

20     remain very precise on questions and let's also try to avoid to move away

21     very much to background and issues which are more in the margin of the

22     testimony of this witness rather than to focus on the core of the

23     testimony of this witness.  I must immediately add to that, Mr. Lukic,

24     that the way in which the Prosecution presented this evidence certainly

25     also adds to this confusion so I'm just trying to get things on track as

Page 4860

 1     good as I can.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will withdraw the question

 3     and I will pose different question that is more in connection with

 4     this --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, what were you told by the members of

 8     these commissions, can you recall?  How many Serbs were counted at those

 9     polling stations and how was it possible to know what their vote was

10     because it was a secret ballot?

11        A.   Mr. Lukic, the members of the commissions knew all their Serb

12     neighbours who came to vote and on the basis of that they provided this

13     kind of information.

14        Q.   Was it possible for the voters to vote either in favour or

15     against?  Do they know exactly how many Serbs turned out?

16        A.   They didn't know how many people turned out, but they know that

17     Serbs took part in the referendum.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I again try to cut this short.

20             What really is the dispute between the parties?  Is it the

21     position of the Prosecution that the Serbs by -- in any substantial way

22     participated in this referendum?  And is it the position of the

23     Prosecution that the Serbs by a majority were in favour of an independent

24     Bosnia and Herzegovina ?  Is that the position of the Prosecution?

25             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, if I may answer in brief, that was not

Page 4861

 1     the focus or the purpose that we had tendered the -- this witness's

 2     evidence --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That was not my question --

 4             MR. SHIN:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- how you focused, but whether that's the position,

 6     if that's the case, of the Prosecution.

 7             MR. SHIN:  If I may consult briefly with my colleagues.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

 9             MR. SHIN:  Thank you.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin.

12             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  No, Your Honour, that is not our position.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Lukic, many of your questions seem to

14     focus on perhaps a few remarks by the witness but seems not to address

15     anything that is in dispute between Prosecution and Defence.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I'll move on, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So would you please move on.  Yes.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, let's move on.  I wanted to ask you

20     about Donja Puharska which is a Muslim village.  Is it correct that as

21     early as March 1992 there were night guards in that village?

22        A.   Puharska is not a village; it is a neighbourhood of Prijedor.

23        Q.   Apologies then.  Is it correct that in Puharska, part of

24     Prijedor -- first of all, is it a Muslim part of Prijedor?

25        A.   Well, there are about 70 per cent Muslims and 30 per cent Serbs.

Page 4862

 1        Q.   Is it correct that in March 1992 there were night guards in that

 2     part of Prijedor and night patrols?

 3        A.   I don't know because I did not reside in that part of Prijedor.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 6 of this document,

 5     please, which is 1D411.  It is transcript page 6780.

 6        Q.   The question begins in line 9 and concludes in line 10 and then

 7     the answer, which is somewhat long, goes on up to line 23 and then

 8     continues in 25.  The question is:

 9             [In English] "Do you know that in March 1992 the villages of

10     Donja Puharska were already holding night patrols?"

11             And the question continues in line 24 and it says:

12             "Is your answer to my question yes?"

13             And line 25 the answer was:

14             "Yes, it is."

15             [Interpretation] Does this refresh your memory?  You had

16     previously responded to the same kind of question with a yes.

17        A.   Well, what I can say now is that I accept the answer I provided

18     before because my memory was better at the time.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think we are close to where we need a

21     break.  Could you find a suitable moment within the next two or three

22     minutes.

23             MR. LUKIC:  This is a suitable moment.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  This is a suitable moment?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

Page 4863

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break but not until after the

 2     witness has been escorted out of the courtroom.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, are we on track as far as timing is

 5     concerned?  I think your estimate was three hours -- three and a half --

 6     two and a half, I apologise.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I would accept that three-hour estimate.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, how generous of you, Mr. Lukic.  Could you

 9     give us an indication?

10             MR. LUKIC:  I should finish in another -- in another hour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             Then we take a break and we resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, it is not the first time that the

16     Chamber had to wait for a substantial time before we could start.  If you

17     next time would again use the toilet facilities at the end of the break,

18     the Chamber will start and you'll have to wait until the next break.  The

19     Chamber considers this to be a waiver of your right to be present in

20     court.  So next time we'll not wait as we did today nine minutes.  We'll

21     just start.  You can follow the proceedings, if you wish, from a cell

22     with a screen and you would then of course be welcome again after the

23     next break.

24             This having said, could the witness be escorted into the

25     courtroom.

Page 4864

 1             Mr. Mladic apparently wants to consult with counsel which he can

 2     during the next break or write a small note to counsel and then it will

 3     be passed on to counsel.

 4             Mr. Groome, there was an issue about scheduling next week.  The

 5     Chamber -- the Judges have looked in their agendas and the best

 6     opportunities to gain some extra time would be on Monday and Tuesday.

 7     The Chamber would like you to come up with a concrete plan, that is,

 8     because just adding an hour to a morning session is not possible, as you

 9     may aware of due to staff supporting us.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore could you prepare a plan and perhaps

12     discuss it already with Mr. Lukic so that we can use some extra time, but

13     preferably focus on Monday and Tuesday afternoons for the extra time.

14             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Lukic, if you're ready please continue

16     your cross-examination.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, I am going to ask you about Ljubija

19     next.  Is it correct that the Muslims replaced by force the Croat who was

20     at the helm of the police station in Ljubija in Prijedor municipality?

21        A.   You have in mind Branko Bjekic?

22        Q.   I do.

23        A.   Well, you see, according to the information I have, in Ljubija at

24     the time a staff of sorts was established, not a Crisis Staff, but this

25     one comprised Serbs, Croats, and Muslims.  They decided to have

Page 4865

 1     Branko Bjekic removed because he was commander in the previous communist

 2     regime.  Amongst themselves, they had agreed to have Fikret Sarajlic take

 3     over that position who had been an active-duty policeman in Prijedor.

 4     After the take-over by Serbs in Prijedor he was kicked out as well.  He

 5     hails from Ljubija.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 8, please, of the

 7     document before us, 1D411.  It is transcript page 6782.  I'm interested

 8     in lines 23 through 25 at the bottom of the page and then we'll move on

 9     to the next lines 1 through 6.

10        Q.   In this testimony you say:

11             "In Ljubija in May 1992, Branko Bjekic was removed.  He was a

12     police commander in Ljubija, a Croat by nationality.  He was replaced by

13     Fikret Sarajlic who had been dismissed from his job in Prijedor."

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I read "exchanged" instead of "removed."

15             MR. LUKIC:  Then I will read in English.  Maybe I didn't

16     translate properly.

17             "In Ljubija in May 1992, Branko Bjekic was exchanged.  He was a

18     police commander in Ljubija, a Croat by nationality.  He was replaced by

19     Fikret Sarajlic who had been dismissed from his job in Prijedor and he

20     was assisted by Drago Tokmadzic, Ismet Taric, Aziz Aliskovic, and

21     Velid Krupic.  In this way, they took over the police station in Ljubija.

22     Is that correct?"

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Your answer:

24             [In English] "Yes, for a very short time.  They did not agree to

25     be commanded by Simo Drljaca, and the extremists from the Serbian

Page 4866

 1     Democratic Party who had taken over the police station in Prijedor."

 2             [Interpretation] All of the persons you mentioned here, save for

 3     Drago Tokmadzic, were Muslim; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  Drago Tokmadzic was a Croat.

 5        Q.   Just now you told us that a staff was established comprising all

 6     ethnicities, that is to say Serbs, Muslims, and Croats.  Can you tell us

 7     who was there on behalf of the Serb side?

 8        A.   I forgot to mention at the time the name of Curguz.  I know him

 9     under the nickname of Krivi.  He was a Serb.  There was a Komosar person,

10     another Serb, from the police station.  I have to tell you, though, that

11     this sort of staff was active in Ljubija for only a few days.  In only

12     several days that police station was put under sub-control from Prijedor.

13        Q.   Is it your testimony today that Curguz, aka Krivi, and the

14     Komosar person - and you say they were both Serbs - participated in the

15     removal of Branko Bjekic?

16        A.   I don't know who participated in his removal by name.  I do know

17     that he was removed.  I only mentioned the policemen I knew well with

18     whom I used to work in the security service.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I was to leave this topic briefly.  You were asked

20     whether your cousin Adnan took some packages to Slavko Ecimovic, be it in

21     person or with the assistance of Dr. Esad or Hamed Cuk.  Is that piece of

22     information correct?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   Slavko Ecimovic headed the attack or, as you call it, an attempt

25     of liberating Prijedor; correct?

Page 4867

 1        A.   It is.

 2        Q.   Did you have any participation in providing assistance to the

 3     fighters headed by Ecimovic?

 4        A.   No, none whatsoever.  I even had a difference of views with

 5     Slavko Ecimovic.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that the leadership of the SDA and of

 7     the SDS in Prijedor had agreed on the take-over and that Mirza Mujadzic,

 8     SDA president, took part in those talks?

 9        A.   The SDA and the SDS, whether they had any arrangements in place?

10        Q.   Yes, about the take-over of power so as to have it done without

11     fighting.

12        A.   I received that information from a third source and perhaps I

13     mentioned it in one of my previous statements.  I stand by it in any

14     case.

15        Q.   Mirza Mujadzic had sent his family out of Prijedor before the

16     conflict erupted; correct?

17        A.   Yes, but so did many other people from Prijedor, other Muslims

18     and Croats.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I do not know exactly what the status in

20     e-court of this document is because it's not part of the admitted

21     transcripts.  If I try to open it for myself, access is denied.  That may

22     be a technical problem, but do you want to tender it then?

23             MR. LUKIC:  According to Your Honour's guide-lines, we plan to

24     review what we used at the end of the day and maybe only tender the

25     portions we used.

Page 4868

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes because --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Not the whole -- not the whole transcript.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay that's fine as far as I'm concerned.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Because I uploaded it seven days ago and I wasn't

 5     sure at that time what I'm going to use.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Perfectly clear.  Perfectly acceptable.  The reason

 7     why I'm asking it is if you put to the witness:  Is your answer accurate?

 8     And if we have not read what the answer was, then of course we would not

 9     know what the evidence is unless we have those portions in evidence.

10             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And therefore it is also important that you always

12     clearly refer to on what page we are so that it's -- that we are better

13     able to find it.  Please proceed and take care of this aspect.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will try to cure my

15     mistake.

16             Can we have 1D411, page 15, on the screen, please, lines 19 to

17     24, please.  That's regarding the take-over of power and that family of

18     Mr. Mirza Mujadzic left Prijedor was on the next page, page 16, and

19     transcript page 6790, from rows 4 to row 6 line section.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear.  What I specifically referred to

21     was page 45, lines 7 and following, where you say you were asked whether,

22     et cetera, et cetera, and then without saying whether he -- whether the

23     witness confirmed or denied the accuracy you asked is that piece of

24     information correct, where you were only referring to the question

25     whether or not.  So we do not know whether he confirmed or not, but we'll

Page 4869

 1     find that in the transcript of the other case.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Regarding that information I can give you --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you put to the witness --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- information he said, he confirmed it to be

 6     correct.  Okay.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  You can find it at page 9, lines 11 to 13

 8     [overlapping speakers] --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and that's of course why I insisted so much in

10     having it in evidence.

11             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  Please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Now I would like to have page 31 from this

14     document -- actually 414.  I need 1D414, page 31.  Page 31, please.  Yes,

15     transcript page number 13209.  Line 16.  I will read in English.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             MR. LUKIC:  I will quote from English transcript.  Mr. Sivac was

18     recorded to say:

19             "The Omarska camp as well ...  all of the other camps in Prijedor

20     were established by the civilian authorities of the municipality of

21     Prijedor."

22             Then he talks about Mr. Milan Andzic who provided logistics.

23             Now we need next page, line 4 to 7.  So it's page 32.  Question

24     was, I quote:

25             "And the civilian authority you're referring to is the Prijedor

Page 4870

 1     Crisis Staff; is that right?

 2             "A. Yes.  Civilian authorities headed by the Crisis Staff of the

 3     municipality."

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, would you say the same today, that

 5     the camps in Prijedor had been set up by the Prijedor civilian

 6     authorities headed by the Crisis Staff?

 7        A.   Yes, I would.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked about armed groups from Kozarac,

 9     Hambarine, and I am also going to ask you whether it is true that the aim

10     of these armed groups was to breakthrough towards Bihac, carrying out

11     smaller attacks on the VRS en route?

12        A.   Yes, that was their plan.

13        Q.   Now let me ask you this, it concerns Milomir Stakic.  At the

14     trial of Milomir Stakic you claim to have recognised him in the Omarska

15     camp; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17        Q.   Would you make the same claim today?

18        A.   Identical.

19        Q.   Also when you spoke about -- just a moment, please.

20             When you spoke about the visit of the delegation to Omarska, you

21     mentioned some other people who were present there.  And we need 1D410 in

22     e-court, page 38, lines 22 to 24.  Here you enumerated the names of the

23     people you recognised, and in line 23 you say Zivko Ecim, Rade Mutic,

24     Ostoja Kesar, Slobodan Pesevic, and Boro Maric.  Then there are some

25     additional names which is on page 6741 of the Stakic trial on

Page 4871

 1     31st July 2002, and then there are some names in --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the transcript

 3     number.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you repeat the transcript number.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Page number?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I take it the page of the transcript.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 6741 was the previous page number,

 8     and now we need 6743.

 9        Q.   And there you say the politicians in the delegation were

10     Radoslav Brdjanin, Vojo Kupresanin, Dr. Radislav Vukic.  From Prijedor

11     were present Simo Miskovic, Milomir Stakic, Srdjo Srdic, Simo Drljaca.

12     Did you recognise these people when they came to Omarska?

13        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

14             May I address the President because I have a problem.

15     Mr. President, I have a small problem.  I to leave the courtroom for a

16     minute.  I do apologise, but it's force majeure and I have some health

17     issues.  I'll be back shortly.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We might use the time for other purposes at this

22     moment.  In relation to Witness RM511 I think there were two requests.

23     One we have dealt with already, that is the chart to be used for

24     identification of voices in audio records, intercepts, but there was also

25     a request to use with Witness RM511 a chart in relation to documents.

Page 4872

 1             Mr. Lukic, I think we have not heard yet the position of the

 2     Defence in relation to the use of these documents through this chart.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, Mr. Stojanovic is dealing with the next

 4     witness --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  -- and I think he will address you on this issue.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell us whether there's

 8     any objection to the proposed course?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we are talking

10     about the same thing, we received today a table of abbreviations and

11     terms to be used --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, what -- no.  What I'm talking about is a list of

13     16 documents to be used with RM511 and the chart which is intended to

14     seek the comments regarding the authenticity of those 16 documents and

15     any comments on the substance of those documents.  The question is

16     whether the Defence would agree with the use of these documents through

17     this chart?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  Yesterday we

19     talked to our client at the Detention Unit and I think that it is

20     acceptable for these documents to be used.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and also for the chart to be used, but then

22     later we'll find entries by this witness on authenticity and the

23     substance of the documents, at least comments on that.

24             Then under those circumstances, Mr. Groome, the Chamber allows

25     you to proceed as you suggested.

Page 4873

 1             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             Your --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I might usefully or make use of this

 5     time until the witness returns, the other document that Mr. Stojanovic

 6     referred to is a document that I provided the Defence earlier, and in

 7     preparing for 511 it occurred to me that -- how important it is to be

 8     precise about the use of language and words B/C/S don't always translate

 9     precisely into English.  So what I've proposed is a demonstrative exhibit

10     which takes -- will be an exhibit in this case, it is the official

11     lexicon of the JNA army which defines all of the terms, and to turn that

12     into an exhibit that we all can use so that we can be precise in the

13     language we use and that there's no confusion in the use of military

14     terms.  For example, there are two B/C/S words for the -- that translate

15     into the word "order," so to ensure that we are using it precisely I've

16     offered the Defence to add any additional words that they think will be

17     useful and hopefully that process will be completed before Monday and

18     we'll be able to be distribute that to the Chamber.  And I see the

19     witness is returning to the Chamber, so I'll sit down.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise to the

23     Chamber and to you, Mr. Lukic.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No need to apologise.

25             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

Page 4874

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   When I listed the names of the Banja Luka politicians, I

 3     mentioned Radoslav Brdjanin, Vojo Kupresanin, Dr. Radislav Vukic.  Did

 4     you see all of them in Omarska on that day?

 5        A.   Vukic, Brdjanin, no, I didn't Kupresanin but I saw --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last two

 7     names.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us -- you said you didn't see

 9     Kupresanin, but you did see ...  and then repeat those names, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stojan Zupljanin and Predrag Radic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   So what you said in the Stakic trial that you saw Vojo Kupresanin

13     is not correct?

14        A.   It is not correct.  I used to mix up Zupljanin and Kupresanin.  I

15     thought that they had similar faces.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D405 in e-court, please.

17        Q.   Mr. Sivac, this is your statement of 12 to 16 November 1994.

18     We're still waiting for it to appear on the screens.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin.

20             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  Very briefly, Your Honours, if I may just refer

21     back to the document Mr. Lukic was quoting from, the prior transcript, it

22     may be that Mr. Lukic was, in fact, asking this witness a question by

23     reading from this witness statement, and that appears to be what it was

24     rather than the witness's testimony in the Stakic case.  But I'll let

25     Mr. Lukic clarify if needed.

Page 4875

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could you please verify, Mr. Lukic, and see

 2     whether there's any need to adjust what you said?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I can go back to that, but I was reading from the

 4     transcript from Stakic case.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think it's not --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] -- on our screens.

 7             MR. SHIN:  Yeah --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that that was not the issue but who was

 9     speaking or who -- Mr. Shin, that seems to be the problem?

10             MR. SHIN:  Okay, Your Honour.  I was just going to that page 6741

11     in the Stakic testimony where Mr. Lukic's question begins at line 13,

12     indicating that he is reading -- I'm sorry, I'm speaking too quickly.

13     I'll slow down.  That Mr. Lukic indicates that he is reading the whole

14     paragraph, and if we return to page 6740, in line 19 we see that that is,

15     in fact, the paragraph from the witness statement that we have just now

16     have on the screen.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You'd say it was -- the transcript does not reflect

18     what the witness testified but was reflecting what his statement

19     contained?

20             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  It appears to be that Mr. Lukic was reading from

21     this statement which is currently on the screen in order to put a

22     question to the witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We are in a position to verify it.

24             MR. LUKIC:  From this statement I need page 24 in B/C/S or page

25     34 in English version.  Can I see ERN number in B/C/S version because I

Page 4876

 1     don't think that's the page, please.  You have to go one page back.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] In the second paragraph in the middle towards

 3     the end of line it reads that among the politicians were

 4     Radoslav Brdjanin, Vojo Kupresanin, Dr. Radislav Vukic.  Do you recall

 5     making this statement in November 1994?

 6        A.   It is possible.

 7        Q.   But it's incorrect with regard to Kupresanin?

 8        A.   I already told you, I used to confuse Zupljanin and Kupresanin.

 9     I didn't know them very well and hence the confusion.

10        Q.   When you testified in the Zupljanin case you said that it was not

11     Kupresanin but that it was, in fact, him who you saw?

12        A.   Yes, it was him, Stojan Zupljanin.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D410 in

14     e-court.  We need page 50.

15        Q.   In the Stakic case on transcript page 6753 I ask you this in line

16     14 - I'll read it out in English.

17             [In English] "Q. What was the role of the army in the running of

18     the Omarska camp?

19             "A. I don't know what the chain of command was.  I'm not familiar

20     with that.  But as a prisoner, I had the impression that they didn't have

21     any business connections with the camp.  In the Omarska camp, as well as

22     Trnopolje and Keraterm, there were no soldiers, and that's why I think

23     that the army did not have any authority over these camps and that they

24     were run by the civilian authorities of Prijedor Municipality."

25             [Interpretation] When you testified back then, did you tell the

Page 4877

 1     truth, Mr. Sivac?

 2        A.   I did.  As for any subordination that existed between the

 3     military and police structures, at the time it was unclear to me.  And

 4     any kind of co-ordination or manning mechanisms they had in place, I only

 5     learned about that later.

 6        Q.   I'll go back to one sentence which I read a moment ago in order

 7     to put a specific question.

 8             [In English] "In the Omarska camp, as well as Trnopolje and

 9     Keraterm, there were no soldiers, and that's why I think that the army

10     did not have any authority over these camps ..."

11             [Interpretation] Would you agree today that as a detainee you did

12     not see a single soldier?

13        A.   That would be incorrect.  In my previous statements and testimony

14     before this Court, I identified all such soldiers who were members of the

15     city battalion stationed around the Trnopolje camp.  I can reiterate that

16     today if need be.

17        Q.   So when you testified in the Stakic case, you did not tell the

18     truth?

19        A.   So you believe.  It's an assertion of yours.

20        Q.   I'm asking you whether what you said in the Stakic case is true

21     or not.  You tell me.

22        A.   What I said then is what I repeat now.  I told the truth about my

23     initial impression.  I -- as far as I remember I mentioned soldiers in

24     all of my statements.  I knew many of them.  Some of them had been my

25     friends.  There's nothing else I can say.

Page 4878

 1        Q.   Did you ever see Mico Kovacevic in the Omarska camp who was the

 2     then-Municipal Assembly speaker of Prijedor municipality?

 3        A.   I believe so.  It was when the political delegation came.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have Exhibit 1D407 in

 5     e-court.

 6        Q.   It is your statement of the 30th of March, 1998.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the ERN number in

 8     the English -- sorry, in the B/C/S version.  There seems to be something

 9     wrong with the ERN numbers.  Does this statement have two 7s as the last

10     two digits on any of the pages?  Could we go to the last page, please.

11             [In English] My version is obviously different from this one.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, perhaps a matter to be sorted out during

13     the break.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             Could you tell us how much more time you would need because I

17     think you used now close to two and a half hours.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Five minutes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Five minutes.  After the break.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  After you've sorted out your things.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Would the next witness be available, Mr. Groome?

24             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  He's just outside the door.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break and we'll -- after the

Page 4879

 1     witness has left the courtroom, and could the usher escort him out of the

 2     courtroom.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, could you already give us an indication as

 5     to how much time you would need for re-examination as matters stand now?

 6             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honours.  If there is to be any redirect at

 7     all, it will be less than five minutes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means we would have approximately half an hour

 9     left for the next witness.

10             We'll take a break and we'll resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.35 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14             MR. LUKIC:  While the witness is entering --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  While the witness is brought in -- I sorted out my

17     papers and we will need 1D407 on the screen, first pages and then we'll

18     move just for witness to see that it's his statement.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Sivac, you can see your statement on the screen in front of

22     you given on the 30th of March, 1998.  We need page 4 in the English

23     middle of the page and page 6 in the B/C/S version, bottom of the page.

24     In this statement which you gave to the Tribunal officials there's a

25     paragraph in the B/C/S then a single line where you say:

Page 4880

 1             "I never saw Kovacevic in Omarska."

 2        A.   I don't know.  I can't see my signature anywhere here.  This is a

 3     bit puzzling.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- at least in the English version, and I'm

 5     checking at this moment about the B/C/S version, but I find no signatures

 6     yet.  I find in -- in neither version I find any signatures, not to say

 7     that you still can ask the witness whether he recognises this as his

 8     statement, but he might need more time to go through it.  Of course I'm

 9     also looking in the direction of the Prosecution.  This apparently is a

10     witness statement taken by investigators of the OTP.  Mr. Shin -- and I

11     noticed another thing before I give you an opportunity to respond.  In

12     the English version at the bottom it says on the -- what seems to be the

13     last page in e-court, it says "page 6 of 7," therefore you would expect

14     another page, and of course we couldn't exclude that a signature is found

15     there.

16             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. SHIN:  [Microphone not activated]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Microphone, please.

20             MR. SHIN:  Okay.  I think we're good.

21             Yes, Your Honours, I'm informed that we do not have a signed

22     version of this statement.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, which requires then great caution, Mr. Lukic,

24     but please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 4881

 1        Q.   Mr. Sivac, do you remember that this statement was used during

 2     your testimony in the Stakic case?

 3        A.   Believe me when I say I don't.  I also don't remember this

 4     statement of mine.  I have provided many statements and I have been

 5     visited by a number of investigation teams, including some people from

 6     the country where I resided at the time.  So I really can't recall

 7     off-the-cuff.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Let's go back to our previous topic then.  Is it

 9     correct that you have never in any statement or testimony before this one

10     said that in Omarska and Keraterm there were any soldiers.  And if you

11     believe you have said something to that effect, do indicate it to us.

12        A.   Let me tell you this, Mr. Lukic:  As regards Trnopolje, when you

13     asked me about that, I understood your question.  I can't recall exactly.

14     I think you asked me who was in charge of the Trnopolje camp and I said

15     civilian authorities, and indeed they were.  But no one asked me who

16     provided security in the Trnopolje camp.  And in all of my statements

17     thus far I mentioned Slobodan Kuruzovic and Boro Grubic and

18     Zoran Knegenic [phoen].  They were all members of the city battalion or

19     the town battalion of the VRS, so it may have been a misunderstanding.

20     The way I understood the question was who officially established the

21     Omarska and Trnopolje camps.  They were created by decisions of the

22     Crisis Staff which was a civilian body.  It's another issue who provided

23     security for the camps.  I guess I made a switch there.

24        Q.   On page 6753 in the Stakic case, you said there were no soldiers

25     there.

Page 4882

 1        A.   I may have misspoken or perhaps you should keep listening to my

 2     testimony and I think you'll find that I mentioned Slobodan Kuruzovic and

 3     all those soldiers who guarded us.

 4        Q.   Slobodan Kuruzovic, the Balaban brothers, and members of the town

 5     brigade, that was with regards to Trnopolje; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Not with regards to Omarska and Keraterm?

 8        A.   No.  They guarded the Trnopolje camp.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sivac.  That would be all and I would like to

10     thank you for answering my questions.

11        A.   I would like to thank you as well for being fair.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, any need to re-examine the witness?

13             MR. SHIN:  Yes, simply two questions, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. SHIN:  If I could please ask the Court Officer to pull up

16     P480 and turn to page -- I'll wait until it's up.  And turn to page 39 in

17     the e-court which would be transcript 6627.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Shin:

19        Q.   Mr. Sivac, Counsel Lukic has just asked you about soldiers in

20     Omarska, and I will read you very briefly from your testimony in the

21     Stakic case.  You are responding here to a question from the Prosecution,

22     and if I -- I'm sorry, if I go to the previous page, page 38 and

23     transcript page 6626.  The question Prosecution counsel has asked you

24     then is "were you" -- I'm sorry, I'll repeat that.  Quote:

25             "And were you then taken to the area of Omarska known as the

Page 4883

 1     garage?"

 2             And part of your answer, if I may just skip to this part of P480,

 3     now back to page 39, 6627 of the transcript, on lines 3 through 8 -- I'm

 4     sorry, 3 through 10.  You state:

 5             "And close to the iron door in one of the corners of the garage,

 6     Professor Muhamed Cehajic, president of Prijedor Municipality, was lying

 7     all alone.  He had obviously been beaten severely.  You could see that he

 8     had been maltreated.  He urinated blood.  I will never forget that night.

 9     Around 8.00 in the evening, the door slammed open, and a Serb soldier

10     appeared.  He was wearing red shades.  He began to yell and threaten us.

11     He cocked his weapon.  Behind him, there were the other guards standing."

12             Mr. Sivac, do you stand by your answer that I have just read out

13     in your Stakic testimony?

14        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

15        Q.   And finally, Mr. Sivac, you have mentioned in the delegation

16     visit to -- in response to questions both from me and Mr. Lukic, you

17     mentioned that in the delegation visit to Omarska while you were a

18     detainee there that one of the persons present there was Radmilo Zeljaja.

19     Can you please tell us whether you stand by that answer and who

20     Radmilo Zeljaja was by position?

21        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  He was the commander of the

22     43rd Motorised Brigade of the VRS from Prijedor.

23             MR. SHIN:  No further questions, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Shin.

25             The Bench has no further questions.  Mr. Lukic, you have no

Page 4884

 1     further questions.

 2             Mr. Sivac, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to thank you

 3     very much for coming to The Hague and for answering all the questions

 4     that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a

 5     safe return home again.  You may follow the usher.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for having

 7     listened to what I had to say.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Protective measures for the next witness would be

10     face distortion and pseudonym which requires that when the witness enters

11     the courtroom that the curtains should be down and that the screens

12     should be in place.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, we'll take this opportunity just to

14     rearrange our staff as well --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. GROOME:  -- for the next witness.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the curtains be drawn up again.  I take it

21     that face distortion is in place?  It is.

22             Good afternoon, Witness RM110.  Before you give evidence, the

23     Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed

24     out to you and I would like to invite you to make that solemn

25     declaration.

Page 4885

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  RM110

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.  Witness, we'll not

 6     call you by your own name.  We will call you Witness RM110.  And your

 7     face is also not visible for those outside this courtroom.  You will

 8     first be examined by Ms. Hochhauser.  Ms. Hochhauser is counsel for the

 9     Prosecution.

10             Ms. Hochhauser, you may proceed.

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours.  I

12     do have a fairly detailed record of the adjudicated facts, but -- which I

13     didn't get to make, but I would suggest if it's all right doing it once

14     the witness leaves the courtroom today since we won't get through the

15     rest of his testimony.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you'd postpone that.  That's -- okay, let's

17     start with the witness --

18             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- because we have limited time left and otherwise

20     he might feel to be superfluous which he is not.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.  Thank you.

22                           Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

23        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Can we please have 65 ter 28484 on the monitor,

25     not to be displayed outside of the courtroom.

Page 4886

 1        Q.   Sir, can you tell us, please, whether you recognise your own name

 2     and date of birth on that sheet?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And, Your Honours, if I might tender this into

 5     evidence under seal.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28484 becomes Exhibit P490 under seal,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P490 is admitted under seal.

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

11        Q.   Witness, you have given statements to the Office of the

12     Prosecutor previously on the 22nd February 1996 and the 11th of March,

13     1997, as well as testified previously in cases against

14     Dragomir Milosevic, Momcilo Perisic, and Radovan Karadzic; is that

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And if we could please have 65 ter 28483, again

18     not to be broadcast outside of the courtroom on the monitor.

19        Q.   Sir, do you recognise what is being displayed on the monitor in

20     front of you to be one of the witness statements that you signed on 22nd

21     February 1996?

22        A.   Yes, that is one of the statements.

23        Q.   And is that your signature?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   In preparation for your testimony in the Karadzic case, on the

Page 4887

 1     1st of November, 2010, you signed a statement which amalgamated some

 2     relevant portions of your previous OTP statements and your testimony up

 3     until that point; is that right?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hochhauser, would you switch off your microphone

 5     if --

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Oh, I'm sorry.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the witness answers.

 8             I may have made a mistake.  There's no voice distortion, there's

 9     only face distortion, so therefore apologies for my mistake.

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

11        Q.   So, sir, I just asked you about the preparation of an amalgamated

12     statement before your Karadzic testimony.  Do you recall that?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If I could please have 65 ter 28482 on the

15     monitor, again not to be displayed outside of the courtroom.

16        Q.   Sir, do you recognise what is now on the monitor as the 2010

17     amalgamated statement that we just discussed?

18        A.   Yes, I recognise my signature at the bottom of the page.

19        Q.   Now, with regard to both of these statements that we've now seen

20     on the monitor assigned 65 ter numbers 28482 and 28483, did you have the

21     opportunity to review them again before coming to court today?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   And is there anything in either of those statements that you

24     would like to change or correct?

25        A.   No, there isn't anything.

Page 4888

 1        Q.   If asked the same questions today that you were asked when

 2     providing the information contained in those two statements, would you

 3     give the same answers today?

 4        A.   Yes, certainly.

 5        Q.   And is all the information in both of those statements truthful

 6     and accurate?

 7        A.   Yes, they are truthful and accurate.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I now tender under seal both

10     65 ter number 28482 and 28483 along with the associated exhibits, as

11     indicated on the revised exhibit list provided to the Defence and

12     Chamber.  I would note that in terms of the associated exhibits,

13     Your Honour -- I'm sorry, if you would just give me one second -- I

14     apologise.  I'm offering the -- along with the associated exhibits as

15     indicated on the revised exhibit list provided.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's start with the two statements.

17             Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28483 becomes Exhibit P491,

19     Your Honours.  And document 28482 becomes Exhibit P492, Your Honours,

20     both under seal.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Both are admitted under seal.

22             Now, as far as the associated exhibits are concerned,

23     Ms. Hochhauser, we received the list and let's just see whether that's

24     the most recent one.  I -- yes.  The first one I think is 10046; is that

25     correct?

Page 4889

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Official report.

 3             Any objections?

 4             Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10046 becomes Exhibit P493,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence under seal.

 8             The next one would be, Ms. Hochhauser, shaded items not -- would

 9     that mean that 10121 is the next one?

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  That's correct.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P494, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The next one would be 10134 -- by the way, for P494

14     I should have said "under seal."

15             Then 10134 is the next one.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P495, Your Honours, under seal.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted under seal.

18             Next one, 10234.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P496, Your Honours, under seal.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence --

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, if I might address the last one of

22     the associated exhibits which is 65 ter number 13865.  I'll make a more

23     detailed record of it later, but in reliance on adjudicated facts I will

24     not be tendering that at this time.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But then 10352, does that remain?

Page 4890

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  No, Judge, that should be shaded on the chart.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Should be shaded.  And 12844 --

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Also.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Also.  So we have dealt with all those you wanted to

 5     tender.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic, I carefully looked at you but I always noticed

 7     that there were no objections against these documents.

 8             Please proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.

 9             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, if I could at this time read the

10     public summary of the evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  So RM110 worked for the Sarajevo security

13     services from around April of 1994 until the end of the conflict.  In

14     this role, RM110 participated in the investigation of numerous shelling

15     and sniping incidents.

16             RM110 was often on the site of investigations and recorded many

17     of others' conclusions and observations as well as his own in official

18     reports.

19             Among other investigations, RM110 investigated four scheduled

20     incidents, including F-11, the firing on passengers on a tram on 8

21     October 1994; G-13, the use of a modified air bomb on Safeta Hadzica

22     Street on 26 May 1994; and G-18, the shelling of the Markale Market on 28

23     August 1995.  And I notice that I believe I misspoke.  I should have said

24     "three scheduled incidents."

25             The written evidence of RM110 also covers the investigation of

Page 4891

 1     unscheduled shelling incidents both from 28 June of 1995, one, the

 2     bombing of the TV building; and second, the bombing of Geteova Street

 3     number 5 in the Alipasino Polje neighbourhood; as well as an unscheduled

 4     sniping incident on 14th of May, 1995, in which Jasmina Tabakovic was

 5     killed in her bedroom in Dobrinja.  In each instance, the on-site

 6     investigation identified the origin of fire as Bosnian Serb-held

 7     territory.

 8             That concludes the summary, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  If you have further questions for the

10     witness, please proceed.

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Now, RM110, as you know, the Chamber's already in possession of

13     your statements, the statements that you've just seen that have been on

14     the monitor.  And so as a result, I'm going to limit my questions to

15     either clarifying information in those statements or eliciting

16     information that is not contained in them.

17             So in regard to what is now in evidence as P493 under seal, and

18     that is the shooting incident at a tram, incident F-11, on 8 October

19     1994, in that exhibit at -- in the English page 2 and the bottom of page

20     1 in the B/C/S, the weapon that is -- the report describes the weapon

21     used as a death sower.  Can you tell us what is meant by a death sower?

22     And this -- this is an exhibit that's under seal.

23        A.   Well, that's what I heard from my colleagues who were a

24     ballistics expert, that it involved fire-arm with a long barrel and that

25     can fire a large amount of rounds.  So usually people say that anyone who

Page 4892

 1     has this kind of gun pointed at them due to speedy fire is unable to flee

 2     and avoid consequences, and for that reason it was named death sower.

 3        Q.   Now I'm going to turn now to the event on 26 May 1995 on

 4     Safeta Hadzica Street.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Can we please have 656 ter 10132 on the screen

 6     and this is a public exhibit.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, did you have the opportunity to look through this

 8     series of photographs prior to coming to court today?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And are they accurately identified as coming from the scene of

11     Safeta Hadzica Street on 26 May 1995?

12        A.   Yes.  As far as the photographs that I saw are concerned, this is

13     the scene on Safeta Hadzica Street.

14        Q.   And were you present at that scene?

15        A.   Yes, I was.

16        Q.   And do the photographs accurately depict the location as you saw

17     it after the bombing?

18        A.   At the moment I can see only one photo, but what I saw before I

19     appeared in court, yes, the photographs were taken at that location where

20     projectiles landed on Safeta Hadzica Street.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And, Your Honours, at this time I'd like to

22     tender 65 ter 10132 into evidence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10132 becomes Exhibit P497,

25     Your Honours.

Page 4893

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Now if we could please have Exhibit 495 under

 4     seal on the monitor -- oh, I apologise, P495.

 5        Q.   And I'd like to just quickly draw your attention at page 5 in the

 6     English and page 6 in the B/C/S, and in the B/C/S I believe it's the

 7     third full paragraph from the bottom, second sentence of that paragraph.

 8     And it indicates there that the explosion was in front of number 52,

 9     whereas elsewhere in the report it indicates -- it states number 152.  I

10     believe you've addressed this at previous testimony, but is it -- are

11     those two separate incidents or is it a typographical error?

12        A.   No, that's one and the same incident.  Probably the error

13     occurred during the typing of this report, and I'm referring to the error

14     in the number.  If I remember correctly, at the moment the number should

15     be 52.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Now if we could go into private session, please.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, at the same time I'm looking at the clock.  We

19     have to finish in one minute from now.  I don't know whether it's

20     worthwhile to go into private session.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  No, it's not, Judge.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Witness RM110, I'd like to instruct you,

23     because we'll adjourn for the day, I'd like to instruct you that you

24     should not speak or communicate in any other way with whomever about your

25     testimony, whether that is testimony you've given already today or

Page 4894

 1     whether that is testimony still to be given next week.  If that's clear

 2     to you, you may follow the usher and we'd like to see you back on Monday

 3     morning at 9.30.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hochhauser, I think reading the relevant

 7     adjudicated facts could be best done when we are waiting for the witness

 8     to enter the courtroom on Monday.

 9             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That usually takes close to a minute before the

11     witness is there, rather than to ask for further patience of

12     interpreters, security, and transcribers.

13             We adjourn for the day and we will resume Monday, the 12th of

14     November, at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, III.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of

17                           November, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.