1 Friday, 16 November 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that the Defence wanted to raise a
12 preliminary matter.
13 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, just having in mind our pretty tight
14 schedule today, I spoke with the Prosecution, and we agreed that the
15 associated exhibits for this witness would be dealt in writing.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's no problem as far as the Chamber is
17 concerned to do it in writing. Any other matter? If not, could the
18 witness be escorted into the courtroom.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Thomas.
21 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I would like to remind you that
23 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave at the
24 beginning of your testimony, and I would urge you again to make -- take a
25 breath between question and answer and try to speak not too quickly.
1 Mr. Ivetic will give the good example.
2 WITNESS: FRANCIS ROY THOMAS [Resumed]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
6 Q. Mr. Thomas, I would like to now ask you about some of the tactics
7 that you witnessed of the Bosnian Presidency forces, and first of all am
8 I correct that on several occasions you, that is to say the UNMO mission,
9 had to complain to the Presidency forces to move their mortars because
10 they were too close to UN buildings or facilities?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And at paragraph 20 of your statement, P503, and that's page 15
13 of the same, you talk of instances where the Bosnian Presidency forces
14 appeared to be firing at the Serbs trying to draw the Serbs to
15 counter-fire or retaliate. In those instances would you consider it
16 plausible or reasonable that a local artillery commander on the
17 Bosnian Serb side would have the level of autonomy to be able to respond
18 on his own to such an attack without seeking the approval of superiors?
19 A. I couldn't answer that question for sure.
20 Q. Fair enough. If we can briefly turn to --
21 A. Excuse me.
22 Q. If we could briefly turn to 1D424, and, sir, this is the
23 transcript from your testimony in the Karadzic proceedings, and if we
24 could turn to page 5 of this 65 ter number.
25 JUDGE ORIE: In order to make life easier for those coming after
1 us, page 2, line 12, paragraph 20 is at page 5. Please proceed.
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. If we could focus in on lines 16 through 18, and here, sir, you
4 are talking about the Bosnian Serb artillery, and you say:
5 "So not only were they firing on a target that we couldn't
6 identify as being military, but they couldn't even analyse what they had
8 Am I understanding your terminology to mean that the Serb
9 artillery could not visually confirm where their shot had fallen and what
10 their fire had accomplished vis-a-vis the target?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Yesterday during direct, counsel asked you about the time period
13 pre-dating the Markale shelling. I'd like to ask you in relation to the
14 Markale 1 shelling, which occurred on the 5th of February, 1994, am I
15 correct that it was your view that the investigation was inconclusive,
16 that is to say it could not be established to a reasonable degree of
17 certainty which side fired that fateful round?
18 A. Based on those documents that I have seen, and I don't know
19 whether I've seen them all, that is still my conclusion.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. Am I also correct that you have knowledge of
21 another incident that sticks in -- that's significant where a civilian
22 appeared to have been killed on the airport road at the junction with the
23 Dobrinja road by sniper where the -- where there was a CNN media crew
25 A. Yes. That incident was based on our judgement though. There was
1 never any proof. The only possible reason that we could see was because
2 a CNN convoy passed by within minutes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question is still very factual. Was
4 there an incident where a CNN crew was nearby? That's the only thing.
5 Why they were there, by -- for whatever reason, that's not part of the
7 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't answer it correctly,
8 Your Honour.
9 Yes, the CNN crew passed by. They were not in the neighbourhood.
10 They passed by within minutes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. IVETIC: I would like to call up number -- I apologise. Just
13 waiting for the B/C/S translation to catch up.
14 I would like to call up number 1D00433 in e-court and turn to
15 page 21 in the English and page 26 in the B/C/S.
16 Q. And while we wait for that, sir, this is an unredacted copy of
17 the statement that you have hopefully still in front of you, but you
18 won't see this text. It was redacted in that version. This is paragraph
19 number 92.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that Mr. Registrar has difficulty with this
21 number. Could you please verify, Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: 1D00433. And if we could then turn to page 21 in
23 the English and 26 in the B/C/S.
24 Q. And we're looking at then paragraph 92. And for purposes of the
25 record, I'll read the paragraph in its entirety before asking you my
1 follow-up questions:
2 "In mid-December 1993, I participated in an investigation of
3 attacks by Bosnian soldiers on several Serb villages near Han Pijesak. I
4 observed freshly burned houses and witness accounts indicated that all
5 who were caught were killed (0055-2665-0055-2665 is a report regarding
6 this incident). I believe this was done by the Bosnians to show the
7 Bosnian Serbs that they had limited troops and could not protect
8 everyone. I learned from an intelligence source aerial surveillance
9 showed that from October 1993 onwards there was a pattern of villages
10 destroyed in the same manner."
11 First of all, Mr. Thomas, could you affirm that this paragraph of
12 your redacted statement is true and correct.
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. And -- and if asked the same questions today, would you give the
15 same answers on this topic?
16 A. Yes, I would.
17 Q. I would like to now clarify. The pattern of villages destroyed
18 in the same manner, would those also have been ethnic Serb villages
19 presumed destroyed by Bosnian Presidency forces?
20 A. That I couldn't tell from the intelligence report.
21 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up in e-court 65 ter 28527. And
22 while we wait for this, I believe it is a report dated the
23 19th of December, 1993.
24 Q. Sir, if I could direct your attention to the English version. Do
25 you recognise this document as the report that resulted from your
1 investigation into the destroyed village referred to in paragraph 92 of
2 your unredacted statement?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. If I can direct your attention to the middle of the page. We see
5 a number of other villages listed where it was alleged that similar
6 things happened. Do you know if these are the villages that are
7 referenced in the surveillance that showed about the affected territory?
8 A. No, I couldn't confirm that.
9 Q. Do you know if any investigations or formal complaints were
10 undertaken by either UNPROFOR or the UNMO mission relating to the actions
11 of the Presidency forces in any of these villages?
12 A. No action was taken because we received no further complaints
13 from the Bosnian Serbs about these villages.
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document,
15 number 28527, as the next available exhibit number.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: It becomes Exhibit D102, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D102 is admitted into evidence. Mr. Ivetic, by the
19 way what I think I intervened in a relatively early stage in the
20 examination-in-chief to ask for the basis for some of the observations by
21 this witness. Of course what the witness believes to be the case also
22 may need some factual basis. If you want to explore that, that might
23 assist the Chamber.
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. Mr. Witness, could you please elaborate on how you came to the
1 belief that these villages were, in fact, destroyed by the
2 Bosnian Presidency forces and your belief that they wanted to show the
3 Bosnian Serbs that they could not protect everyone?
4 A. The first investigation was made on the only request made by the
5 Serbs to conduct an investigation. I was not satisfied that that was the
6 only occasion. I waited for a Serb -- follow-up Serb complaint. None
7 was received. I check with a NATO intelligence source. I was verbally
8 told that there were sufficient grounds to think that there had been
9 other villages, a belt of villages, that showed up as hot spots, and
10 that's all he would tell me. And I moved some Serbo-Croatian speaking
11 military observers towards the area Pale and looked at getting
12 accommodation so they could conduct investigations, and you have the
13 result of my report. But no further complaints were ever received, or,
14 no further requests for investigations were ever received. I passed this
15 report to my superiors in Zagreb, and they never directed that I conduct
16 further investigations either. In fact, they considered that by
17 deploying people to that area and a special team being prepared was a
18 waste of my resources.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, to -- I think I can understand what you said to
20 be in support of these attacks having been made by the Bosnians, also of
21 a certain pattern. At least there's -- I can imagine that you would use
22 this information as support for that, but I still have difficulties in
23 understanding how what you told us could be a factual basis for the --
24 your belief that it was done to show the Bosnian Serbs that they had
25 limited troops and could not protect everyone, that that was the thought
1 behind these attacks.
2 THE WITNESS: Because I was quite surprised at the --
3 professionally surprised at the ability of the Bosnian forces to have
4 come 200 kilometres, because these forces did not originate in Sarajevo,
5 to have come almost 200 kilometres into -- within 20 kilometres of the
6 major Serb -- Bosnian Serb headquarters and completely destroy a village
7 with a large party of men and then drive the cattle off, quite a large
8 herd of cattle off in the direction of Bijelvo Selo [phoen]. I cannot
9 believe that --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it seems it's your logic --
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- which leads you to this conclusion as the purpose
13 of the exercise.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. I'd like to take a look at your amalgamated statement again,
17 P503, and focus on paragraph the 99 of the same, which will be found on
18 page 31 in the English and page 38 in the B/C/S. While we wait for that,
19 I will advise that here you are talking about the large amount of
20 equipment the Bosnian Presidency forces had in the Kosevo tunnel and that
21 this tunnel was therefore turned into a weapons collection point.
22 Can you enlighten us on what kind of equipment you are talking
24 A. Well, there's an earlier document that was submitted as evidence
25 that detailed the sitrep I received, the intelligence analysis I
1 received, such as it was, intelligence, when I took over the job. So any
2 equipment that we had not been able to see was found in the tunnel, and
3 you can just look at the list of equipment that's on that other document
4 and guess that most of that equipment was found in the tunnel.
5 Q. Could you identify for us where this particular tunnel is located
6 and if it is in addition to the two tunnels that were discussed yesterday
7 or if it's one and the same?
8 A. This is a road tunnel that's found in the centre of Sarajevo.
9 Q. And is it distinct from the two tunnels that we discussed
11 A. Most definitely. Those were on the front line -- or one was
12 under the airport.
13 Q. Did your mission have information about the use of the Tuzla
14 airport by the Bosnian Presidency forces to transport guns and personnel
15 and ammunition into the Bosnian Muslim enclaves of Gorazde, Zepa, and
17 A. I have no idea. That was outside my area of responsibility and I
18 had enough to do in Sarajevo.
19 Q. One last question for you, sir, just to be clear. In the course
20 of your time as the SMO in Sarajevo, you never personally witnessed
21 General Mladic giving orders for combat to any units of the
22 Bosnian Serb Army, did you?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. I thank you for your time.
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
3 Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Ms. Bolton?
4 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:
6 Q. Good morning. The tunnel that you were just referring to, the
7 road tunnel, the Kosevo tunnel, could you tell me whether that was ever
8 the subject of artillery bombardment by the Bosnian Serb Army during your
9 time in Sarajevo?
10 A. I couldn't say for sure. That general area received hits, but it
11 was not a specific target that we could determine.
12 Q. Was it ever struck so that the actual tunnel collapsed?
13 A. No, it wasn't.
14 Q. And was there ever concentrated fire in that area?
15 A. No, there never was concentrated fire on almost any area.
16 Q. You were asked a few minutes ago about a report you prepared on
17 an investigation in the area of a village called Pocolovaka [phoen], and
18 my question is: How much villages did you actually physically visit to
19 investigate the allegations of the Bosnian Serbs?
20 A. I only visited one area in particular, and we received
21 information on the others.
22 Q. The aerial information that you received, could it assist you in
23 determining who had been responsible for any damage that you could see
24 from the aerial photos?
25 A. I didn't get to see the aerial photos. This individual -- I was
1 not privy to this particular information. The individual gave did to me
2 to assist me in indicating that there had been activity in those areas,
3 but there was no further -- we needed to investigate on the ground. We
4 did not have the evidence we needed.
5 Q. And so in terms of, for example, speaking to survivors of these
6 alleged attacks, did you ever have that opportunity?
7 A. In fact, the one village we did visit, there were no survivors
8 that we could talk to.
9 Q. So was -- the incidents with respect to the other villages, were
10 they ever UNMO confirmed?
11 A. No.
12 Q. With respect to the incident my friend was asking about involving
13 somebody being killed by a sniper and CNN passing by shortly thereafter,
14 was there ever any determination as to who was responsible for killing
15 that civilian?
16 A. No, there was ...
17 Q. You've also indicated here today that in respect of the Markale 1
18 or February 5th, 1994, incident, that your opinion is based on the
19 documents you've seen, and you don't know whether you have seen them all.
20 Have you ever seen any expert reports in relation to this incident?
21 A. Yes. I think I -- well, depends on the definition of "expert."
22 Q. Let me --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton. Ms. Bolton.
24 MS. BOLTON: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I think there are some adjudicated facts as to the
1 source of fire on the 5th of February, 1994. I was already slightly
2 surprised, if I may say so, that Mr. Ivetic asked the witness whether on
3 the basis of the report at that time had a certain opinion. Two
4 questions: The first the basis for that opinion would be limited to what
5 existed in that year; second, whether the witness is sufficiently
6 qualified to evaluate all those reports. And now before we go on to
7 further explore what one could conclude if one would have only available
8 the material at that time, whether that assists the Chamber is highly
9 unlikely. I mean, if it's --
10 MS. BOLTON: No, I --
11 JUDGE ORIE: It would have been thoroughly dealt with by
12 Mr. Ivetic I can imagine that you want to put further questions. But the
13 only thing Mr. Ivetic asked is, Looking at the reports at that time, do
14 you still believe and is that still your conclusion. I can tell you one
15 thing for certain, that the Chamber will not stop at that time in
16 evaluating information available on this incident. Please proceed. And
17 whether the witness has seen any later reports, yes or no, and what his
18 beliefs are or what his opinions are, if he's not an expert, seems to be
19 of low relevance and low probative value.
20 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. I appreciate the Trial Chamber's
21 direction on that issue.
22 Q. If I could just go back to a few issues from your testimony
23 yesterday, sir. If you would just bear with me while I put on my
25 Yesterday during examination, you were read an excerpt of -- in
1 which you had been discussing the Swiss model and the issue of
2 Yugoslav Territorial Defence units. Do you recall that line of
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And part of what you were asked about was the idea that the
6 Territorial Defence had depots or storage facilities where they would
7 have kept ammunition, for example.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what actually happened to
10 anything that would have been stored in those depots when the hostilities
11 broke out in Yugoslavia in 1992?
12 A. No, I don't. It would have been issued out before my time.
13 Q. And do you have actually any personal knowledge of there being
14 ammunition depots within the city of Sarajevo, held by the Bosnian
16 A. No.
17 Q. You were asked the following questions and answers yesterday.
18 MS. BOLTON: And, Your Honours, I had only the temporary
19 transcript available. I don't know if that's a complete transcript
20 available, but I'll read from page 51 of the temporary transcript.
21 Q. This is what you were asked, starting at line 5, and this is --
22 the question that was asked to you was:
23 "Q. Did you have occasion in Gorazde to have the Kopaca," then
24 unintelligible or unintelligible location identified for you, "... which
25 was the reserve rear command of the SFRY high command, a significant
1 bunker and command structure."
2 You said:
4 "Q. Would such structures, if they existed, be legitimate
5 military targets for an opposing force?
6 "A. Yes, and if Your Honour would give me the caveat. If it was
7 known, so widely known, why was it not shelled ... before I got there."
8 And my question for you is: Was the SFRY a party to the conflict
9 in Bosnia when you were there in 1993?
10 A. No. You have to explain that acronym to me, actually.
11 Q. It would be the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, sir.
12 A. It was -- the Bosnian Serb government -- I mean the Serbian
13 government was not a party in Yugoslavia when I was there.
14 Q. At page 56 of yesterday's transcript, you were asked some
15 questions about a tunnel that you described as being dug from the front
16 lines on Bosnian Presidency territory towards the Serb front lines, and
17 you indicated in your response to Mr. Ivetic's question at the bottom of
18 page 55, he asked you:
19 "And first of all, perhaps it's best for the witness to confirm.
20 Am I correct that this is a different tunnel," it should say, "than the
21 one that was under the airport?"
22 And you said:
23 "Absolutely. This was as I stated in my earlier testimony, the
24 Serbs accused the Bosnians of making tunnels towards their front lines
25 and the -- this is one of the excuses they used for sniper fire."
1 At whom were they firing and using it as an excuse?
2 A. This would be sniper fire on the front lines.
3 Q. Was it ever used as an excuse for sniper fire at -- at civilian
4 targets, to your recollection?
5 A. No, it wasn't.
6 Q. At pages 58 and 59 of -- or 59 of the transcript yesterday, you
7 were asked about troop movements for the Bosnian Serb forces, the
8 rotation of troops, and you were asked if you would agree that the
9 Bosnian Presidency forces in Sarajevo had to be moved from more interior
10 positions towards the front lines.
11 Could you tell me whether the Bosnian Presidency forces had
12 available to them motorised -- enough motorised vehicle to move troops to
13 the front line?
14 A. No, they did not. In fact, they never used motorised transport
15 to move their troops to the front line.
16 Q. And so how would their troops reach the front line?
17 A. By walking, and that would mean they would be close to the front
18 lines to save time.
19 Q. And was there ever an occasion when you saw a large group or a
20 large body, for example, of soldiers moving towards the front line from,
21 say, the very centre of Sarajevo?
22 A. No, but I was caught up in a column of soldiers moving -- of
23 people in civilian dress moving to the front line with no weapons, no
24 equipment, who were going to presumably acquire that when they got to the
25 front line, and I was surprised that we weren't subjected to shelling.
1 Q. So these were unarmed soldiers; is that correct?
2 A. They were unarmed males, and I can only imagine they were moving
3 to the front to replace people that were there.
4 Q. There were some questions about French kit which was described as
5 uniform and equipment yesterday. What pieces of equipment were you
6 referring to?
7 A. Primarily the helmet and the flak jacket. And the flak jacket I
8 can only identify when I got closer to the body of men.
9 Q. You were also asked yesterday if you would agree with the
10 proposition there were approximately 25.000 armed Bosnian Presidency
11 soldiers that were located in Sarajevo as part of the 1st Corps.
12 First of all, could you tell me if you know what percentage of
13 the 25.000 would be on the front lines at any one time?
14 A. I have no idea.
15 Q. Did you receive -- I'm sorry. I'm going too fast, I think. Did
16 you receive any -- or can you recall if you received any intelligence
17 information about that?
18 A. The UN didn't engage in really intelligence information, and we
19 weren't tasked to acquire intelligence information. So I'm basing my
20 agreement yesterday of 25.000, because that's what I was given in my
21 report that I received on taking command.
22 Q. If we could have -- you're referring to the report as part of
23 your briefing.
24 MS. BOLTON: Could we have 65 ter 28558, please. It would be
25 page 1.
1 Q. In the middle of this document here is an indication that it was
2 estimated the Bosnians have approximately 25.000 men in the arms in
3 Sarajevo, out of which a third are permanently on the front line.
4 And if we could scroll to the top of this document, please. This
5 document's called "Description warring factions." Have you seen this
6 document before?
7 A. Yes, I have.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers kind lip not overlap for the
9 sake of interpreters. Thank you.
10 MS. BOLTON:
11 Q. Was this one of the documents that you received at the time of
12 your briefing?
13 A. Yes. You'll note my initial on the top, and that was there
14 before all the documentation stamps were put on it.
15 Q. Okay. Further -- at the very bottom of the page as it's
16 displayed in English it says, and I don't need it to be moved, it's
17 difficult -- this is with respect to the Bosnian weaponries, it's
18 difficult to get exact numbers of heavy weapons, but an estimation,
19 Bosnians have five tanks, 10 to 15 armoured vehicles, and up to 50
20 artillery and mortar weapons which they do not have the ammunition.
21 You were referring earlier today about some information you
22 received or about, sorry, weapons that you saw in the tunnel.
23 A. Yes. We saw the weapons in the tunnel after the cease-fire.
24 MS. BOLTON: I'm finished with that document now. Thank you,
25 Your Honour.
1 Q. Yesterday you were also asked some questions about civilians, and
2 you were asked if civilians including women and elderly and kids wore
3 uniforms or partial uniforms, and you said yes. What did you mean when
4 you said they were wearing uniforms?
5 A. Some of the aid that was received from other European countries
6 included cast-off uniforms. For example, a popular uniform that was
7 there was the German uniform. They had bits and pieces of old uniforms.
8 And I suppose they had uniforms as well from the -- their relatives that
9 were in the forces who might have been killed.
10 Q. And you then were asked --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, let's wait for the translation to
13 MS. BOLTON:
14 Q. You were then asked, sir, if you agreed that such a situation
15 could cause a degree of confusion in identifying combatants, and you said
16 no. Why do you say that?
17 A. Because generally the women and children were easily identifiable
18 as women and children.
19 Q. You were asked some questions yesterday at page 62 and 63 of the
20 temporary transcript about shelling of -- by Croatian forces in Kiseljak
21 that landed inside the Papa side of Sarajevo, and you responded to that
22 question at the top of page 63:
23 "No. It wasn't UNMO confirmed. The only reason that we
24 suspected is the calibre of round was different, and also there were
25 reports of French guns that were owned by the Croatians in Kiseljak
1 firing ... we made a correlation between the two ... so those why we
2 maintained suspected."
3 And subsequently on page 64 on the same subject, you said -- you
4 referred to this as this particular incident.
5 Was there more than one occasion or only one occasion when you
6 had reason to suspect because of the calibre of round being different
7 that the shelling came possibly from Croatia?
8 A. There was only one occasion that it was brought to my attention,
9 but when we asked the UNPROFOR headquarters, they said that this wasn't
10 the first -- the only occasion that it had happened.
11 Q. What was the calibre of round?
12 A. It was a medium artillery, and again we can't confirm because we
13 didn't have anybody there, but there were some medium artillery pieces
14 that we were -- that professionally we were interested in, in the area of
15 Kiseljak which were suspected to be of French origin, sold to some
16 Croatians by the French or supplied.
17 Q. Are there differences in the size of calibres of rounds used by
18 French forces than by the forces in the former JNA?
19 A. The NATO standard is 155. The Russian standard is 152 for medium
20 guns. And I could be wrong, but all the medium guns that I saw on the
21 JNA -- or provided by the Bosnians to the Bosnian Serbs were
22 152 millimetre.
23 Q. You were asked at pages 79 and 80 of the temporary transcript
24 yesterday about a disagreement you had with General Soubirou on one
25 occasion where he seemed inclined to accept information provided to him
1 by the Bosnian government over information provided to him by one of your
2 UNMOs, and you subsequently indicated in response to questionings about
3 how often this had occurred, and your answer was none. No other
4 occasions "I can recall right now. The only one I recall was the exact
5 opposite of the case you just presented."
6 By exact opposite, do I take it to mean there was an occasion
7 when General Soubirou seemed to -- inclined to accept information
8 provided by the Bosnian Serb side over information from your UNMOs?
9 A. No, it isn't -- it doesn't involve General Soubirou. It involves
10 General Rose. My observers considered that weapons battery -- a battery
11 of the Bosnian Serb certainly was inside the 20-kilometre zone and
12 General Rose disagreed, but I insisted that my guy was right and I would
13 accept his statement.
14 Q. On the topic of General Rose, you were asked --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then ask you, what then is the -- is the
16 opposite that General Rose followed your advice or?
17 THE WITNESS: No. They discovered then that we didn't have
18 agreement on where the actual centre of the radius of the 20-kilometre
19 zone was, and that was established.
20 JUDGE ORIE: How -- I have difficulties understanding how this is
21 the opposite of the other example.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, it involved a Serbian complaint that we
23 were -- that this gun position was not inside the inclusion zone, and it
24 was -- and involved a different general.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I therefore understand that the opposite
1 was that it was related to the opposite party --
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- where a similar discussion took place.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's correct, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.
6 MS. BOLTON:
7 Q. You were read a passage yesterday -- or a couple passages from a
8 statement provided by General Rose, one of which suggested in which
9 one -- in one of which General Rose suggested that he believed Ganic had
10 organised his secret police to snipe trams. And you went on to say you
11 had no knowledge of that. You were then asked if you had visited a
12 Bosnian Presidency position which was under the control of the police
13 rather than the army. You said you had. And I just wanted to be clear.
14 The -- when you talk about the police, and my friend talked about Ganic's
15 secret police, are we talking about the same thing?
16 A. No, we definitely aren't. These people wore uniforms, and I can
17 add that they were nowhere near the trams.
18 Q. And they wore police uniforms or military uniforms?
19 A. They wore police uniforms.
20 Q. You were also read a portion of General Rose's statement where he
21 was critical of the UNMOs, and I just want to continue reading where my
22 friend left off yesterday. He read a portion that - I'll read the last
23 sentence or two - said, the UNMOs:
24 "Many were not technically competent and some were sold out.
25 They were captured by the ones they were -- they were ... with." It
1 continues to say:
2 "They were UNMOs at Pale and Belgrade. I am unaware of whether
3 there were UNMOs based at Lukavica -- Lukavica. I guess the Belgrade
4 ones were monitoring the airport. They were not under my command."
5 You told us earlier in your evidence about your UNMOs being held
6 technically hostage at Lukavica Barracks in April 1994. Was General Rose
7 in command in April of 1994?
8 A. Yes, he was.
9 Q. And did you make him aware of that incident?
10 A. Yes, he was aware of that incident. He was also aware that I had
11 50 people on the Serb side, including my headquarters for the Lima team
12 in Lukavica.
13 Q. Page 87 of yesterday's transcript, it was suggested to you that,
14 starting at lines 12, by Mr. Ivetic:
15 "Would you agree with me, sir, that due to the manner in which
16 the observation locations were set I -- that on the Serb side of the
17 confrontation line the casualties were not adequately covered by the
19 And you responded --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters while
21 reading. Thank you very much.
22 MS. BOLTON: "A. I would agree."
23 In order for the UN to confirm a casualty on either side of the
24 confrontation line, so a death or a wounding, what did your protocol
1 A. Our protocol required us to go and see the body and the injured
2 person, to visit them in hospital or to go to the morgue, and we visited
3 the morgue in Sarajevo every night.
4 Q. And were you given free access to hospitals or morgues on the
5 Bosnian Serb side of the confrontation line?
6 A. No. The only occasion I recall that we got access to a hospital
7 was when we brought a wounded Serb soldier into the hospital.
8 Q. The final area I want to ask you about is the questioning
9 yesterday about UNMO involvement in humanitarian aid escorts.
10 Now, in your answers yesterday, you indicated -- you were asked
11 questions about how often the UNMOs were called upon to facilitate this
12 task, and I want to just make sure I understand your evidence. You
13 mentioned that humanitarian aid agencies would come to headquarters and
14 ask for information. How often did that occur?
15 A. Every day.
16 Q. And did that affect your ability to man your observation posts?
17 A. No. They were welcomed in my operations room, and they got the
18 same briefing we accorded General Soubirou or any other visitor to our
20 Q. And in terms of whether -- or how frequently UNMOs were actually
21 involved in escorting convoys, how often would that occur?
22 A. It would happen as rarely as possible. We did it in the case of
23 Gorazde when we had to. And I'm afraid, I admit it, when other
24 humanitarian assistance area that we were involved in, almost a daily
25 basis, and that was in the Zepa pocket where the UN representative was
1 only there four months of the nine months in Sarajevo and the senior
2 military observer in Zepa had to assume the responsibilities to represent
3 the UN in all humanitarian activities including distribution of money and
5 Q. And was it -- did it affect your ability to have sufficient men
6 or women to man your observation posts in Sarajevo and perform the
7 monitoring of incoming and outgoing fire by needing to escort
8 humanitarian aid convoys?
9 A. I'm not happy with the use of the word "escort." They basically
10 wanted information, and, yes, I had to take a military observer and
11 assign him to the job of liaison to non-governmental agencies and to
12 UNHCR and aid agencies strictly for liaison on a 24 and 7 duty roster.
13 So I lost one military observer to do that job full time, and that's a
14 job I created in my time based on the amount of work we had to do
15 liaising, providing information. And I would ask you to remember that we
16 were the only UNPROFOR element on the Bosnian Serb side.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, the Chamber wonders where we are at this
18 moment in terms of time.
19 MS. BOLTON: I am at the last question, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The last question can be put to the witness.
21 MS. BOLTON:
22 Q. In questioning about a document yesterday regarding the delivery
23 of aid, you were asked about if there were incidents where
24 notwithstanding the Serbs agreeing to the delivery of aid it couldn't be
25 done because of other issues involving, for example, the drivers, the
1 absence of a particular kind of ambulance.
2 My question is: Were there occasions when the Serbs didn't agree
3 to the delivery of humanitarian aid?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. BOLTON: Those all of my questions, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bolton.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: I have a small number of questions for you. I
9 suggest that we try to finish before the break. Would you give us an
10 indication, Mr. Ivetic, as on the basis of the re-examination how much
11 time you'd need?
12 MR. IVETIC: None for me, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: None for you.
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, you told us about the tunnel or the tunnel
16 system in the Nedzarici area. I'm afraid I did not fully explain --
17 understand what you said. You said the Serbs accused the Bosnians of
18 making tunnels toward their front lines, and this is one of the excuses
19 they used for sniping fire.
20 Now, if I use sniper fire to hit soldiers in tunnels moving to
21 the front lines, wherefore do I need an excuse? Isn't that fully
22 legitimate in military terms?
23 A. They wouldn't see these soldiers. These soldiers are tunneling,
24 and they're underground, and they were working their way in tunnels
25 towards the Serb lines, and the Serbs couldn't see them. They could just
1 hear them. And so what they did to try and discourage this was to fire
2 at the people that they saw above the area they thought was being
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, therefore, whether they were firing at
5 civilians or not, you wouldn't know because -- who were above the
6 tunnels, or would you know?
7 A. The -- in our case we never considered those -- that was the
8 confrontation area, and we weren't considering the people there to be
9 civilians at all. So they wouldn't appear on our sniper casualties as
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If these people moving on the surface not in
12 the tunnels were considered to be military combatants, why would you need
13 an excuse to fire at them? Wouldn't that be totally legitimate?
14 A. There was a cease-fire in place. They didn't -- neither side --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but let's try now to analyse clearly. Were
16 they seeking an excuse for firing during a cease-fire which has got
17 nothing to do with tunnels because that would be irrespective of a tunnel
18 or a -- whatever, or were they seeking to have an excuse for firing at
19 people which were on the ground above where there was a suspicion or it
20 was established that tunnels were dug?
21 A. They were trying -- they were in violation of the cease-fire, and
22 the -- and the cease-fire, the Bosnians were in violation of the
23 cease-fire by improving their fortifications or preparing for assaults
24 from underground. So both sides were in violation, and we were trying to
25 find the trenches which were a violation -- the tunnels, these small
1 tunnels or infantry tunnels. And we were trying to discourage the sniper
2 fire on the front line which was killing people in violation of the
3 cease-fire. Military people were dying, but not -- but still in
4 violation of the cease-fire.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I now better understand your -- what
6 it was about.
7 I have no further questions for you.
8 Still the same, Mr. Ivetic?
9 Mr. Thomas, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd
10 like to thank you very much for coming and having answered, even very
11 quickly answered, all the questions that were put to you by the parties
12 and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
13 THE WITNESS: And, Your Honour I'm sorry I showed any disrespect
14 to the Bench yesterday, and I apologise to the interpreters and staff for
15 being a little -- talking too fast.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, there's one matter remaining. Somewhere
17 in your early answers you said you would like to add something, and then
18 I said at the very end of your testimony you could add if there was
19 something you really think was missing which we should know. I'm not
20 inviting you now to deliver a speech, but if there's any specific fact
21 which you had in mind at that moment.
22 THE WITNESS: I think there was one correction to make sure that
23 something that was said by the Prosecution, it came up on the display as
24 freedom of something, and it wasn't freedom of movement, but I hope that
25 will be corrected in the -- when it's -- and also I'd like to thank the
1 people involved in the process for doing this, because I think it -- as
2 we were -- as a good friend had served three years in -- three different
3 tours in Yugoslavia said --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --
5 THE WITNESS: Okay.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If I could discourage you from expressing your
7 feelings about the work of this Tribunal and for whom it is good and for
8 whom it is not good. You may follow the usher.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I inquire whether the next witness is ready
11 after the break?
12 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. And the witness will be taken by
13 Mr. Jeremy.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Jeremy. Interpretation is in place as
16 MR. JEREMY: That's right, Your Honours, Danish interpreters.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We will take the break and resume at 5 minutes to
19 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before the -- no. Perhaps the witness could be
22 escorted into the courtroom, and meanwhile, I use the opportunity to
23 inform the Prosecution that the practical consequences of the decision of
24 the Chamber still to be given on the 92 ter motion for Witness RM046,
25 that the practical consequences will be that the witness cannot be called
1 next week. Mr. Groome, we thought it best to inform you immediately
2 about that.
3 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, while the witness is being brought
5 into the courtroom perhaps I can mention the three adjudicated facts
6 relevant to this witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
8 MR. JEREMY: They are as follows: 767, 768, and 769.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 MR. JEREMY: Thank you.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I invite you to stand. Yes. Could
13 someone fetch the glasses of the witness.
14 First of all -- good morning, Witness. First of all, can you
15 hear me in a language you understand?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then before you give evidence, the Rules require
18 that you make a solemn declaration. I was informed that you are willing
19 to make that solemn declaration in the English language. Could I invite
20 you to stand and to make that solemn declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes. I solemnly declare that I will speak the
22 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: BIRTE WEISS
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Ms. or Mrs., I do not know how
1 to address you, Ms. or Mrs. Weiss. But ...
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Mrs.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Weiss, you will first be examined by
4 Mr. Jeremy. Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the Prosecution, and you will find
5 him to your right. Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.
6 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Examination by Mr. Jeremy:
8 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Weiss.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. In a few sentences could you please provide an outline of your
11 professional background.
12 A. Well, yes. I am a trained journalist, and I supplemented that
13 education with studies of literature at Copenhagen university. I was a
14 member of the Danish parliament for 25 years, which I served as a
15 minister for eight years, having different ministerial posts. I was a
16 deputy chair of the Social Democratic Party for 12 years, and in 2001, I
17 decided to leave politics and go back to my original profession as a
19 Q. What are you currently doing now?
20 A. Currently I work as a literary critic and reviewer for a Danish
21 newspaper called "Weekendavisen," and in addition to that, I occasionally
22 write reports from various places in the world for the same newspaper.
23 Q. And you mention that you held a number of different ministerial
24 posts. Was one of those posts minister of the interior?
25 A. Yes. I was minister for the interior from February 1993 to
1 October 1997. In addition to that, I have been minister for health, I'm
2 minister for research, I'm minister for ecclesiastical affairs.
3 Q. And focusing on your time as minister of the interior, was your
4 work connected to Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. Yes, it was, to a very great extent. We received 20.000 Bosnian
6 refugees in Denmark, and it was a major task for us both in terms of
7 logistics but also, of course, in terms of politics.
8 Q. And you mentioned that you left the ministry -- your position as
9 minister of the interior in 1997. Why did you leave your position at
10 that time?
11 A. It had nothing to do with the Bosnian refugees or the policies
12 pursued in relation to them. The reason was a more fundamental
13 disagreement concerning the long-term immigrant policy, disagreement
14 between the prime minister and myself, and for that reason the logical
15 consequence was that I left my post.
16 Q. And very briefly, what was your position in respect to the
17 refugees at that time?
18 A. I was in charge of a policy which was not to be too rigid as
19 regarded the reception of the refugees, and in addition to that I was to
20 pursue an inclusive policy concerning the integration of the refugees who
21 were given permit to stay in Denmark.
22 Q. Have you written any books that are relevant to the region, to
24 A. Yes, I have. I've written two books. One is particularly
25 relevant in relation to this case. It's called "Witness of Madness," and
1 it concerns the situation in the north-western part of Bosnia, among
2 other places, and I co-wrote it with a university lecturer by the name of
3 Karsten Fledelius, who is from Copenhagen university. He's an historian.
4 He speaks the language, the local language, that is, and he studied at
5 the university of Beograd when he was young.
6 Q. Were you in the north-western part of Bosnia in November 1996?
7 A. Yes, I was. I was there even before then. I was there in
8 June 1996, and I returned a couple of months later.
9 Q. And where in particular were you at that time, in November 1996?
10 A. I was in Kljuc and in the area, the nearby area of Kljuc.
11 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honours, in case it is of assistance,
12 Kljuc is referred to on pages 17 and 18 of the Prosecution's municipality
13 map book.
14 Q. Mrs. Weiss, you've referred to your trip to Kljuc in
15 November 1996. What was the original purpose of that trip?
16 A. Well, the original purpose of my trip was that in my capacity as
17 minister of the interior, I was going there to inaugurate a number of
18 buildings that Denmark had donated to the municipality of Kljuc. They
19 were buildings intended for refugees from the area, refugees staying in
20 Denmark but who wanted to go back very quickly, and it was to provide a
21 shelter for them, because the vast majority of the buildings in the
22 villages around the town of Kljuc were completely destroyed and that was
23 why they needed to have a place to live while they were building their
24 own houses.
25 Q. And briefly, what could you observe of Kljuc in November 1996?
1 A. Well, Kljuc, the town of Kljuc, was like a ghost town. There
2 were no people there, or very few people, that is, almost no cars in the
3 street, and almost all the shops were closed. And the reason for this
4 was that the entire Muslim part of the population had been cleansed away
5 in 1992 and 1993. And later in 1995, the Serb part of the population --
7 Q. Sorry, please continue.
8 THE INTERPRETER: I've asked the witness to repeat it, because
9 there was a person in the booth disturbing.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can repeat my answer. The
11 reason why the atmosphere was very ghost-like was that the majority of
12 the population had simply fled the town in 1992 and in -- and in 1993 the
13 Muslim part of the population was thrown out, and later when the area was
14 recaptured, a major part of the Serb population fled the local area.
15 MR. JEREMY:
16 Q. And what is the basis of the observations you've just made in
17 respect to Kljuc?
18 A. Well, the basis was that in those days I moved around in the area
19 to a great extent with the Major Hadic, and I was shown several villages
20 in which there were basically not a single house intact, left intact. I
21 was also shown how a number of mosques, I think there were about 12 or 13
22 of them in total, they had been destroyed. And if I recall it correctly,
23 the number stated concerning the number of buildings destroyed in the
24 area, well, that number's 6.387.
25 Q. And approximately how many times have you been back to Kljuc
1 since you were there in November 1996, just roughly?
2 A. Well, I couldn't give you the exact figure, but it's somewhere
3 between 12 and 15 times.
4 Q. And where were you on the 8th of November, 1996?
5 A. I was in Kljuc, as I said before. I was there to -- well, excuse
6 me, what was the question? Could you repeat, please?
7 Q. Where were you on the 8th of November, 1996?
8 A. I was in Kljuc, and as I said, I was there to inaugurate the
9 buildings that had been donated by Denmark, and in this connection it
10 turned out that I was also involved in the exhumation of one of the local
11 mass graves, and I was involved in the identification of the remains of
12 part of the male population from the small town called Biljani, which
13 lies outside Kljuc.
14 Q. And why were you involved with that exhumation?
15 A. Well, on the trip down there from Denmark, we stopped over in
16 Bihac and I had meetings with the OTA and UNHCR, and I was indirectly
17 then invited to be the reliable witness from the outside who could then
18 afterwards tell about what went on over those days, and quite exactly as
19 I've been prepared to, the mayor, Hadic, he invited me to take part, and
20 of course I did this.
21 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, Ms. Stewart will now play a video in
22 Sanction. This is 65 ter 28085A, and I note there are no words and there
23 is no transcript, so I hope we can only play it once.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. JEREMY:
1 Q. Mrs. Weiss, the woman that we saw on that clip with her hand over
2 her mouth, who was that?
3 A. That was me.
4 Q. And where are you?
5 A. That was out in the Laniste farm, which is a few kilometres
6 outside Kljuc town. That was where several mass graves had been found,
7 and this one was called Laniste 1, and here was found a very large number
8 of human remains from Biljani.
9 Q. And did you attend any other locations in connection with the
10 excavation of the bodies from this mass grave?
11 A. Yes. Later on in the same day I took part in the identification,
12 which took place in the grammar school gymnasium. The bodies had been
13 laid out in rows, and the relatives then walked about trying to recognise
14 their family members, and at the same time they were requested to
15 identify objects that had been found on the bodies or that had been found
16 lying around in the grave. And I should add maybe that this was before
17 DNA technology had been taken into use in connection with such
19 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, Ms. Stewart will now play another
20 video in Sanction, which is 65 ter 28085B. There are a few words in the
21 final seconds of this video, so you might wish to play it twice.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to rely on it, on the words?
23 MR. JEREMY: We don't need to rely on the words.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If we do not rely on it, if we put the sound that
25 includes now then the music low, then we don't have to play it twice.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Birte Weiss: I was not prepared
3 that we would -- that we would be asked to be present at such a thing."
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I should have explained to our Danish
5 interpret what the situation is. Since we do not rely on the words,
6 there was no need to translate them, but I have been unclear in this
8 Let's proceed.
9 MR. JEREMY:
10 Q. Ms. Weiss, you mentioned being at this school gymnasium and
11 identifying the -- certain of the bodies. Is that what was happening in
12 the footage that we just saw?
13 A. Yes, precisely.
14 Q. And do both of the clips that we have just watched accurately
15 depict your attendance firstly at the Laniste 1 excavation and secondly
16 at the -- at the Biljani school?
17 A. Yes. They give a glimpse, which is a correct picture of what
18 happened, but I was there over some days, so it was a lot more than just
20 Q. And briefly, you refer to a picture of what happened. What
21 picture were you able to build up of what has happened?
22 A. Well, it was quite clear that it was massacre that had taken
23 place and that the bodies from this massacre, that they had been thrown
24 into a -- what I remember as a 20-metre deep cliff, and they were now dug
1 Q. You refer to a massacre. Were you told where that massacre took
3 A. Yes, in Biljani.
4 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I tender into evidence these two clips
5 as the next public Prosecution exhibits.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I hear no objections. Mr. Registrar, the two clips
7 would receive what numbers?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 28085A becomes Exhibit P515,
9 and 65 ter 28085B becomes Exhibit P516.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P515 and P516 are admitted into evidence.
11 MR. JEREMY:
12 Q. Mrs. Weiss, did you again visit Kljuc in July 1999?
13 A. Yes. I visited Kljuc, and this time I stayed for three weeks,
14 starting in July and finishing in August.
15 Q. And why did you visit Kljuc at this time?
16 A. I visited Kljuc because I had -- it had been decided that I
17 should gather my impressions in the form of a book, and I went there to
18 try to provide additional material and primarily to confirm or disconfirm
19 a number of the both oral and written statements I'd heard about what had
20 happened in Biljani in the three years that had passed since 1996. So it
21 was to get an additional foundation of the book I had decided to write.
22 Q. Specifically, what was your book intended to be about?
23 A. That was to be about two things: First, a description of the
24 refugee conditions in Denmark, and I chose a very specific refugee group,
25 namely people who came from Bosnian Krajina and thus also Kljuc,
1 et cetera. That was one purpose.
2 And the other purpose was to describe what they were flying from.
3 What were the events that took place that brought them to a foreign
4 country and what led to the fact that they couldn't stay at home, in
5 their home country.
6 Q. And how did you obtain the material for this book?
7 A. I got it in many ways. As I mentioned before, there were a
8 number of refugees from this area in Denmark, and I got in close contact
9 with them. It was a larger group of people. And in addition, we
10 collected -- we -- it's me and Karsten Fledelius that I mentioned before,
11 we collected material on -- when we were there in 1999. But it was a
12 process that stretched over three years, actually.
13 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, Ms. Stewart will now play another
14 video, 65 ter 28085C in Sanction. This time I do rely on the words,
15 so --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps also to inform the Danish interpret, we'll
17 play this video the first time without translation. You are, however,
18 invited to listen carefully and to check whether the transcript you have
19 received is corresponding with the text spoken, and then we play it for a
20 second time in which we expect translation to be there.
21 Now, I've not been informed about the Danish interpreters. Will
22 they interpret from English, that is, the English translation, the
23 English interpretation as provided by the colleagues, or is it that the
24 English words are spoken in the video-clip itself?
25 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, Danish words are spoken on the
1 video-clip, among other words, and those are translated into English. We
2 already have English subtitles.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore, in the second round, the Danish
4 interpreter is invited to interpret into English.
5 Let's proceed with the first round of viewing and listening to
6 the video.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 JUDGE ORIE: We will now play it again with translation.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be -- we usually, and that's perhaps
11 I've not been clear enough, we usually do not rely on the subtitles, but
12 we usually work on the basis of the interpretation given in court of the
13 words spoken, as I understand here, spoken in Danish. Could we play it
14 again and hear the simultaneous interpretation.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Birte Weiss: The police in Kljuc
17 were very helpful in relation to helping us in our hunt for Samardzija.
18 One might say that they actually helped us to lay down a strategy for
19 finding him.
20 "Police chief: I told you that we found something -- some
21 literature in the school, something that he had written. We can show you
22 and you can read this.
23 "Karsten Fledelius: You should show us some of the literary he
24 wrote. We would be very interested in that. What did he write?
25 "Police chief: This is the document where you can see the
1 signature of Marko Samardzija."
2 MR. JEREMY:
3 Q. Mrs. Weiss, why was this footage recorded?
4 A. Part of our stay in Kljuc at that time, it was a week, we were
5 followed by a Danish TV documentary crew who wanted to show how the work
6 with such a book took place, and this is the reason why we today have
7 some footage that shows the text of the documents -- of the book.
8 Q. The man in the video sat next to you with -- with the beard, who
9 was that?
10 A. Mr. Karsten Fledelius from the Copenhagen university. He was
11 acting as an interpreter for me, and he's also a co-author of the book.
12 Q. And just in a few words, the other two men in the room, who were
14 A. The two other persons, the man at the end of the table is a local
15 police, chief of police, Dafic [as interpreted], and the uniformed police
16 officer to the right in the picture is Safaracic Smail [as interpreted]
17 is his first name. And why I remember the names so well, these two
18 police officers were extremely helpful in relation to our work of
19 finding -- finding Samardzija.
20 Q. Who was Samardzija? Marko Samardzija is the name referred to on
21 the footage.
22 A. Marko Samardzija was a schoolteacher in Sanica, a neighbouring
23 city of Biljani. He was a very well-known person in the area. He is a
24 Serb, and he was part of the set-up that had existed, as turned out
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, the Chamber has some concern about the
2 way in which this testimony goes and the questions. We understood from
3 the 65 ter summary that the witness could, and as she did, testify about
4 the exhumation, but to ask the witness to give second, third, fourth-hand
5 evidence on matters which she obtained, and I have no problem with her
6 work and the book, but of course was obtained in a setting for which we
7 do not know to what extent all sides were heard, et cetera. And to
8 present that as evidence where we have quite a bit of direct evidence,
9 that is of some concern to the Chamber, and the Chamber wonders what this
10 adds. For example, that the policeman was very helpful in helping the
11 witness in obtaining her information. I mean, if he would not have been
12 helpful or if he would have been someone else, I mean that's all the
13 probative value of that how important the work may have been to inform
14 the public, but the probative value before this Court is limited if there
15 is any at all.
16 Would you please focus on matters of which the witness has
17 first-hand knowledge as the exhumation and the way in which bodies were
18 identified and that objects belonging to persons were identified rather
19 than to ask the witness to tell us about what she learned from others
20 about persons at a time where she was not present in the area.
21 Mrs. Weiss, I hope that you do understand that this does not in
22 any way mis-appreciate the importance of your work, but of course your
23 work in writing books is different from what we do in court, that that is
24 in an adversarial setting hearing the testimony of witnesses primarily
25 about what they observed, saw themselves.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I simply answered the questions I
3 am asked, and I was asked about this and that was why I answered the
4 question. But I'm willing to elaborate on everything that has to do with
5 the exhumation and identification procedure.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I hope you did not misunderstand me. It was in no
7 way criticism that you answered the questions. It was, rather,
8 Mr. Jeremy reminding on what he is expecting to do in this courtroom to
9 assist the Chamber. I appreciate not only your work but also that you
10 answered the questions to the best of your abilities.
11 Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.
12 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, as noticed in our 65 ter summary,
13 this -- this witness interviewed Marko Samardzija. And that interview
14 followed shortly after the footage we just saw. In that interview
15 certain documents are -- were referred to by Marko Samardzija. Those
16 documents we'll now look at, and they were provided to this witness by
17 the police.
18 JUDGE ORIE: What we then have is not a hunt for Mr. Samardzija,
19 but you will put documents to the witness, and you'll ask questions about
20 what the witness learned herself from Mr. Samardzija during that
21 interview. That falls within the scope of what we expect you to do.
22 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Q. Ms. Weiss, in the -- Mrs. Weiss, in the video footage we saw, we
24 saw the police make reference to certain documents they say were authored
25 by Marko Samardzija. We'll take a look at some of those documents now.
1 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd ask Ms. Stewart to bring
2 65 ter 28087 to our screens. Your Honours, Ms. Stewart just reminded me
3 I've not tendered the video-clip we just watched, 28085C. I'd like to
4 tender that now.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the third video-clip played today.
6 Mr. Registrar -- or Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: We would object to this video since there is no
8 relevance in this case.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Lack of relevance. It will marked for
10 identification under what number, Mr. Registrar?
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P517, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The video is marked for identification.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy. You'll have an opportunity later to
14 explain the relevance.
15 MR. JEREMY:
16 Q. Ms. Weiss, do you recognise the document on the screen before
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And when have you seen this document before?
20 A. I was -- it was shown to me at the police station in Kljuc.
21 Q. And are you aware of who authored this document?
22 A. Yes. If you go down on the screen and move the text, you can see
23 that it was written by Marko Samardzija.
24 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd also ask -- I'd like to move to
25 another document.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we see that, please? Could we move that
2 document such that ...
3 Yes. Now we have the signature there. Please proceed.
4 MR. JEREMY: I'd like to go to another document, 28088. If we
5 could call that up on e-court, please.
6 Q. And, Ms. Weiss, do you recognise this document on the screen
7 before you?
8 A. Yes, I do recognise it, and I saw it on the same occasion.
9 Q. And very briefly, do you know what these documents were about?
10 A. Yes. I do not understand the original language, but they have
11 been translated for me, and they, very briefly, are about the necessity
12 if you're a Serb in that local area of preparing for a showdown with the
13 Muslim part of the population.
14 Q. Do you know who these documents were circulated to?
15 A. Well, they were first and foremost sent to Marko Samardzija's
16 soldiers. He was a captain of the first degree, and it was a kind of a
17 message to his troops, but I've also been told that they were also
18 distributed to a slightly broader group locally.
19 Q. And how do you know that?
20 A. Marko Samardzija himself told me.
21 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd like to tender those two documents
22 as the next Prosecution public exhibits.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The first one, Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 28087 becomes Exhibit P518, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted -- no, not yet. We'll first hear
1 from Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: The second document that the witness elaborated --
3 JUDGE ORIE: We are at this moment dealing with the first one.
4 Could we limit ourselves to the first one.
5 MR. LUKIC: First one, I think it's not sufficient to just
6 recognise the signature. If the document, the contents of the document
7 is not discussed, we don't think it's sufficient enough to introduce --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's first --
9 MR. LUKIC: -- to this witness. Maybe we can -- it can be
10 re-introduced through bar table, but not through this witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would not object against bar tabling it?
12 MR. LUKIC: If -- when it comes through the bar table then we
13 would --
14 JUDGE ORIE: You would then deal with that.
15 MR. LUKIC: -- deal with that, but through this witness it's not
16 sufficient enough.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let us first ask the witness. You were asked about
18 whether you had seen this document before. You gave an answer when you
19 saw it. You were then asked about who the author was. Now, apart
20 from -- you said you saw the -- it was Mr. Samardzija. We could see that
21 his signature is on the document. Was it ever confirmed that he authored
22 and signed this document in any other way than by looking at this
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, confirmed by whom?
25 JUDGE ORIE: By whomever. By himself, by someone else, by
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the police in Kljuc sent the
3 documents as part of material they had collated and which they had passed
4 on through the court in Bihac to the war Tribunal, and that meant that
5 they were in no doubt whatsoever about the authenticity of this document.
6 The reason why there was no doubt about it -- another reason was that
7 they were found shortly after the war at -- on Marko Samardzija's desk in
8 the school in Cerniska [as interpreted]. He simply had not taken them
9 with him when he fled the premises.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the police told you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The document will be MFI'd. I think the Registrar
13 had given a number already.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It's Exhibit P518.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Marked for identification.
16 The second document of which, Mr. Jeremy, I think you have not
17 shown us the second page, but it's on the second page that the name of
18 Mr. Samardzija appears and is where we find a signature.
19 Mr. Lukic, you said you had objections.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. The same objections.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The same objections.
22 Mr. Registrar, could you assign a number so that it could be
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 28088 becomes Exhibit P519.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mrs. Weiss, what you were told about the
1 origin of this second document, is that the same as what you were told in
2 relation to the first document?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: About the distribution of this document, I think you
5 said that you knew about the distribution because Mr. Samardzija had told
6 you about it.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Whether the word
8 "distribution" is the right word, I shouldn't be a judge of that, but it
9 was primarily made for his soldiers. But in addition to this, among the
10 Serbian part of the population, they had gotten knowledge about it and as
11 much he confirmed this.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So you, in his presence, looked at these documents
13 and he explained for whom they were meant to be sent?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We didn't look at the
15 documents when we visited Marko Samardzija, but we went on asking whether
16 he had written some documents to -- before the massacre. He first was
17 reluctant, said he hadn't written anything that could excite the
18 population, but the -- during the two and a half hours conversation, he
19 nevertheless remembered that he might have written something that had
20 been left in his office at the school and that he had not taken with him
21 when he fled.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
23 Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.
24 MR. JEREMY:
25 Q. Ms. Weiss, you've referred to on a number of occasions your
1 interview with Marko Samardzija, and I'd now like to show some footage of
3 MR. JEREMY: I'll ask Ms. Stewart to play in Sanction
4 65 ter 28085D, and there are some words in this clip, so it will be need
5 to play twice, but I'll cut down the original amount of footage I was
6 intending to show. I'll just show a minute or so, but I'll ask
7 Ms. Stewart when to stop it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll play it first to check on the words spoken,
9 and then the second time we'll receive interpretation.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll now play it for a second and we'll receive
12 interpretation. It stopped at 48:50, and we now start again at 47:25.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Marko Samardzija: Well, people
15 say different things.
16 "Birte Weiss: Well, it's exactly because people say so many
17 different things that we have come. We want to hear from you what
18 happened the way you saw the situation.
19 "Marko Samardzija: Let me tell you, there was an order that
20 some of the most extreme national fascists of Muslim nationality should
21 be sent to Manjaca. I said at the time that I thought there were about
22 14 in our area. In my opinion, those were the 14 extremists. The rest
23 should not be touched.
24 "Karsten Fledelius: Fourteen extremists. Don't touch the rest
25 of the people he said at the time. Then who gave your -- did he give the
1 order himself?
2 "Marko Samardzija: Before the action, before the action the
3 Muslims were to be taken to the school on the evening of July 9.
4 "Karsten Fledelius: ... of the seventh month, July."
5 MR. JEREMY:
6 Q. Mrs. Weiss, of the footage that we just watched of your interview
7 with Marko Samardzija, there was a reference to a meeting on the
8 9th of July and a reference to orders being given on the same date. Do
9 you recall Marko Samardzija talking about these things?
10 A. Yes. I remember this quite clearly.
11 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I ask that the Court Officer bring
12 65 ter 03063 to our screens. This is an order given by a
13 Lieutenant-Colonel Drago Samardzija, dated 9 July 1992.
14 Q. Ms. Weiss -- Mrs. Weiss, do you recognise the order on the screen
15 before you?
16 A. Yes, I do. This was shown to me at the police station in Kljuc.
17 Q. Do you know who Lieutenant-Colonel Drago Samardzija was?
18 A. Well, I was told, but I don't know much about military ranks and
19 their description. Therefore, I don't want to go into details about who
20 had a right to give orders to their colleagues.
21 Q. And who were you told this person was?
22 A. I was told this by the two chiefs of police at the police station
23 in Kljuc, and Marko Samardzija also mentioned the name Drago Samardzija
24 during the conversation I had with him.
25 Q. What did Marko Samardzija say about the name Drago Samardzija?
1 A. Well, I don't remember the exact words spoken, but this came up
2 in connection -- what we saw on the screen, that he mentioned the
3 9th of July, and he said some orders had been given, and it was in
4 connection with a meeting that took place [indiscernible] prior to the
5 massacre on the following day. The meeting took place in Sanica and
6 there was a fair number of leading officers of different ranks who were
7 present, and it was in this connection that he also mentioned
8 Drago Samardzija. Marko Samardzija was also present at the meeting
10 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I tender this exhibit, 65 ter 03063,
11 as the next public Prosecution exhibit.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we would object, Your Honour, since this witness
14 cannot confirm neither who wrote it nor the contents.
15 JUDGE ORIE: But the origin, could you express yourself on that?
16 She said she saw it shown to her at the police station.
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes. That's -- we think that the police officers
18 cannot confirm the origin.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The document will be marked for
21 Mr. Registrar, under what number?
22 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 03063 becomes Exhibit P520, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
24 Please proceed. Mr. Jeremy, at the same time I'm looking at the
25 clock, and I'm wondering whether -- where we are as far as time is
2 MR. JEREMY: I probably have about 15 more minutes, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That goes then beyond your estimate.
4 You asked for one hour and a half finally, I think, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but then we received some more
6 documents, and I think that if we go beyond this point in direct, we'll
7 have to keep this witness for Monday.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just have a look now. If we take a break now,
9 we would then be at quarter past 12.00 until quarter past 1.00. We would
10 have a little bit over one hour and a half.
11 Mr. Jeremy, is there any chance that you would be able to finish
12 more in line with the estimate you gave?
13 MR. JEREMY: I'll do my very best, Your Honours, and I'd also
14 like to --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if Mr. Jeremy would need another seven to
16 eight minutes, would that do? We would then have for you I think one
17 hour and 40 minutes approximately.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will do our best, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break after the witness has been
20 escorted out of the courtroom.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: And we will resume at 12 .18 sharp.
23 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
1 Mr. Jeremy, the Chamber has carefully monitored the
2 examination-in-chief and grants you another seven minutes.
3 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed. I'll be very strict on
7 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd like to tender the video that we
8 watched at the end of the last session, 65 ter 28085D.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
10 Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: It becomes Exhibit P521, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P521 is admitted.
13 MR. JEREMY:
14 Q. Mrs. Weiss, in the video footage we watched just before the
15 break, we saw Marko Samardzija refer to 14 extremists in connection with
16 the events on the 10th of July, 1992. What specifically did he say about
17 those extremists?
18 A. I tried to have a precise definition of what he meant by
19 "extremists." We were told layers in his explanation. One was more
20 general. It was people who -- who were a danger to the Serb part of the
21 population. That was point number one. And point number two, it was
22 young men from families, young men from families who didn't have clean
23 hands in 1941 when there was a massacre in precisely the same local area
24 but with the Serbs as victims.
25 Q. And were these extremists identified in any particular way in the
1 event -- preceding the events of the 10th of July?
2 A. He -- in the interview he talked about -- that he knew precisely
3 who they were, because as a schoolteacher in the area, as a prominent
4 person, he had a very detailed personal knowledge of the persons in the
5 area. So in his head, he had an idea of who they were or who he were
6 referring to.
7 Q. And did others have an idea of who these people were on the eve
8 of the 9th of July, 1992?
9 A. I wasn't present, so I have no possibility of answering this
10 question precisely, but it was said by Marko Samardzija that there were
11 lists of citizens who -- who had to be brought or taken to the school in
12 Biljani where they were to be registered, and there were considering more
13 on that list than the 14 that he considered as extremists. I cannot give
14 you a more precise answer, because as I said, I wasn't present at the
16 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd like to call up Exhibit
17 65 ter 2797B and this is an extract of Mrs. Weiss's book,
18 "Witness To Madness." In particular I'd like to go to e-court page 3,
19 and I'd like to -- excuse me. Yeah, e-court page 3 in the English,
20 halfway down the third paragraph, and in the B/C/S, e-court page 4,
21 halfway down the third paragraph.
22 JUDGE ORIE: How many pages is the extract, Mr. Jeremy?
23 MR. JEREMY: It's six pages, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Six pages.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, for clarification of the record,
1 it's 27976B. Thank you.
2 MR. JEREMY: Page 3 in e-court in the English, halfway down the
3 third paragraph, and page 4 in the B/C/S. Sorry, in English it's page 3,
4 halfway down the third paragraph. Page 3 in the English.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The Registrar tells us that there's only one page in
7 e-court, which surprises me, because when I look at my e-court version, I
8 have six pages.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we have six pages B/C/S version,
10 and one page English version.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I have six pages in English, Mr. Registrar. You'll
12 find the page at a later stage. Put the question to the witness to the
13 extent possible, Mr. Jeremy, because you have not much time left.
14 MR. JEREMY:
15 Q. Mrs. Weiss, in your -- in your book, "Witness To Madness," you
16 quote Marko Samardzija as saying to you the following in respect to the
17 events on the 10th of July, 1992:
18 "It didn't help either that I called the Commander-in-Chief and
19 told him what was about to happen in Biljani. 'Shove off, go home,' he
20 just said. That was at 9.00, and there were as yet no dead on the road,
21 all those terrible things I first heard about later."
22 Mrs. Weiss, did Marko Samardzija told you -- tell you who he
23 called? Did -- specifically the name of who he called?
24 A. He mentioned that he contacted the people he could get in touch
25 with. He created the impression that he -- both on the spot, that he
1 objected on the spot, and he mentioned the name Jovo Kevac. And in
2 addition, by telephone he contacted several people whom he wanted to tell
3 what was going on in Biljani in those hours.
4 Q. And did he tell you who those several people were or what office
5 they occupied?
6 A. He said that they were the commanding people.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, I'm sorry, but I told you before we
8 would be very strict in time. We're not going for three, four, or five
9 minutes, ask the witness to stay here over the weekend. Again we have
10 monitored carefully your cross-examination. I made already a few
11 comments. Would you --
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in your examination in chief, of course. I
14 misspoke. Could you wind up in the next minute.
15 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honours. Could I call up in e-court
16 65 ter 19966A. This is a record of an individual leaving Kljuc
17 specifying the particular property to be left behind, dated the
18 10th of August, 1992.
19 Q. Ms. Weiss, do you recognise or have you seen similar documents to
20 the document on the screen before you?
21 A. Yes. Yes, I do recognise this document, and I have seen several
22 similar documents. It was customary that in order to get on a convoy out
23 of Kljuc, for people who had to flee the town, they would have to sign
24 such a declaration.
25 Q. And --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- again, you invite or let the witness tell us
2 what happened at the time. The witness can tell us about the document.
3 She has no personal knowledge. She may have researched it but has no
4 personal knowledge of that. I pointed to that several times.
5 Where, Mrs. Weiss, did you see this and similar documents?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document I saw at the police
7 station in Kljuc, and subsequently in the months and years after that
8 I've seen similar documents in local authorities. That would be the town
9 hall of Kljuc.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you want to tender it, the Chamber
11 will consider it to be MFI'd depending on Mr. Lukic's position.
12 MR. LUKIC: We do object to -- for this document to be introduced
13 through this witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to tender it, Mr. Registrar, what would
15 the number be?
16 THE REGISTRAR: It would be P522, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P522 is marked for identification. Mr. Jeremy, this
18 [overlapping speakers] time is over.
19 MR. JEREMY: [Overlapping speakers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
21 MR. JEREMY: I have one final question.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No. We said we would be very strict. If there's
23 any time left at the end that one question can be put if Mr. Lukic
24 doesn't use all of his time.
25 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Weiss, this is not the usual way of ending an
2 examination-in-chief, but you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic.
3 Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Weiss.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the interpreter didn't get this.
9 MR. LUKIC:
10 Q. Good day, Mrs. Weiss. [Interpretation] Well, today we will have
11 a strange combination of languages, but I'm happy that we will be able to
12 include Danish also today in the courtroom.
13 I can see that you have had quite an impressive career, of
14 course, and it's an honour to have such a prominent person as yourself
15 before us here today. However, your expertise mostly concerns Denmark
16 and Danish society. So in my question, what I would like to put to you
17 is this: Is it correct that you are not an expert on relations in
18 Yugoslavia and Bosnia, particularly regarding the historical and the
19 political aspect?
20 A. Well, I'm -- you can become an expert many different ways. My
21 path towards gaining knowledge was that as previously mentioned, I was
22 minister for the interior in the period, or most of the period during
23 which war was waged in Bosnia. In that connection, I had to gain
24 in depth insight into developments in Bosnia, and I had to do so because
25 the events here -- or there, rather, why crucial in determining the
1 number of refugees coming to Denmark shortly after the individual events.
2 And because of that, I had on a daily basis to read reports from the
3 Danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and also UN documents, and I also
4 followed the international media. So it's correct that I don't have an
5 education in this field, neither as regards history and not in terms of
6 language specifically. I only speak the language in -- very mediocrally.
7 But in a professional context I also, for reasons of necessity, collected
8 knowledge about matters that were crucial in relation to our reception of
9 refugees in Denmark, and that included specific events.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may have noticed that the Chamber has
11 tried to focus the evidence of this witness very much to fact she knew
12 and has intervened several times on that. So therefore you may have
13 understood this. Apart from the content of the testimony of the witness
14 which was not very expert-like to say so, why now explore what is not her
15 expertise where we tried to do our utmost best to keep the Prosecution
16 within the limits of a witness of fact? Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Weiss, today you testified about the role
19 of Marko Samardzija in these events. Is it correct that you received
20 information that he had received this assignment from Vinko Kondic?
21 A. Vinko Kondic was, as far as I know, the leader of the military
22 police in Kljuc. I do not recollect exactly what he said about the
23 various both military units and police units competencies in relation to
24 the military units. I said in my answer to the Prosecutor that I don't
25 have any in depth specific knowledge about military ranks and the
1 competence associated with the individual officers' ranks and how they
2 are inter-related, so I can't answer your question in any way that is
3 different from the answer I gave to the Prosecutor.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Weiss, perhaps matters are simpler than they
5 look at first. The simple question was whether you received information
6 that the assignment of Marko Samardzija was given to him by Vinko Kondic.
7 Did you hear about that, apart from who he was?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That was -- that was the simple question. Mr. Lukic
10 will now put his next question.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Will you allow me to give a reason
12 for my inability to confirm this?
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you know, you confirm it. If you do not know, it
14 doesn't need a reason. It's good as it is.
15 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. [Interpretation] I want to ask you something about how people
18 acted in that area at the time. We will be going through your book to
19 see if you had any information about this crime, this incident, having
20 occurred for reasons of revenge. So can we please look at 65 ter 27976
21 in e-court, please. Page 18, please. In the English, fourth paragraph
22 from the bottom.
23 Obviously I don't have the same pages in e-court as those shown
24 here. Just one moment, please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Page 18 in e-court, Mr. Lukic, is page 17 in the
1 English hard copy.
2 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the fourth from the bottom.
3 Q. [Interpretation] You say in the book, speaking about
4 Marko Samardzija, we can see that at the top of our screens. In the
5 first paragraph, you said:
6 "...he mentioned the name of the neighbour who killed his father
7 58 years ago ... he started to shake when he spoke about this, how all
8 the men and boys over the age of 12 at that time were taken prisoner and
10 Now we will need to look at page 27. The first paragraph of the
11 same document.
12 This might be a mistake then. Can we look at page 25, please. I
13 apologise. Page 25 of the English version, please.
14 You say:
15 "For him personally, it was a question of revenge.
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note: We cannot see the
17 reference. We don't know where Mr. Lukic is reading from.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you are reading. Interpreters have
19 difficulties in finding it. At this moment we have e-court page 26 on
20 our screen for the English, and for the B/C/S we have -- could you verify
22 MR. LUKIC: We need the next page in English, page 26 on the
23 bottom, but before it was discrepancy for one page. Can we move one page
24 up. First paragraph, please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the page?
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We are now looking at page 27 in e-court, page 26 in
3 the English hard copy.
4 MR. LUKIC: I asked for 27th page.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, let's move on.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. [Interpretation] I will read it again,
7 Your Honour.
8 Q. You can see line 2, the sentence begins:
9 [In English] "For him personally, it was a matter of vengeance.
10 His father had been killed in 1941 by a group of Croats and Bosniaks, and
11 at his mother's death a few years ago, he complained at the funeral that
12 she had not been able to witness 'the vengeance of his despicable
14 [Interpretation] My question to you is this: Did you find out
15 from others that you spoke with that Marko Samardzija and armed local
16 Serbs acted out of vengeance?
17 A. I believe that one should be very careful when generalising. I
18 certainly want to stick to what Marko Samardzija actually said, and --
19 and he used this as a supplementary reason, and part of this reason was
20 that he had experienced that his father, when he himself was five years
21 old, that his father was a victim of the massacre that is mentioned in
22 1941, and he supports this further by referring to the fact that
23 extremists are, among others, those who did not have clean hands in 1941.
24 So there is a logical connection in his statement, but I do not want to
25 generalise in relation to other persons who were involved in that
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question has been misunderstood, if it's
3 well translated. If you look at the English, Mr. -- you asked whether
4 the witness found out from others, that means through other sources, she
5 consulted other sources show spoke with, whether, as I understand your
6 question, whether they confirmed that Marko Samardzija acted out of
8 Could you tell us, because part of your answer was, Mrs. Weiss,
9 that what he told you. Could you tell us whether this was confirmed by
10 other sources?
11 You are looking at Mr. Lukic. It's difficult for you to know who
12 puts the question, but I did. Could you confirm that there were other
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were two parts in the
15 question of the Defence. One of the aspects was a concrete aspect
16 concerning Marko Samardzija. The other aspect of the question was
17 whether one would consider that there were other persons in the area that
18 also acted on the basis of vengeance, motive. My answer is that I can
19 only relate to what Marko Samardzija himself said and what others said in
20 this connection, and this was that there was a vengeance motive --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- so I will not allow myself to
23 assess what other people meant.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Weiss, first of all, if I ask you to stop, would
25 you please do so.
1 Second, you continue to give your answers on the basis of a wrong
2 understanding or a wrong interpretation of the question. The question
3 was not whether others acted out of vengeance. The question was whether
4 you only heard from Mr. Samardzija that he acted in relation to what had
5 happened to him personally in the Second World War, or that others told
6 you the same about Mr. Samardzija.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, okay. Now I think it's clear
8 to me what I'm being asked.
9 Well, I knew this from Marko Samardzija, and a number of those
10 other very many people that we were in contact with at the time, they had
11 the same view, meaning they said that in the case of Marko Samardzija,
12 there was a vengeance motive.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Did you hear from others, Muslims, that you
16 spoke with that other Serbs also acted out of vengeance?
17 A. That's the question that I -- well, that's what I said just a
18 minute ago, that it's difficult for me to answer this question.
19 Q. Sorry. I'm asking you anybody of the people, such as Nasiha and
20 other people that you spoke with, did they tell you anything in this
21 regard? Did they or not? If yes, can you please tell us who it was that
22 told you something like that and when?
23 A. Well, you need to specify what you mean about in this context, in
24 this relation.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- I'll rephrase the question now.
1 Did you hear from any other person you spoke with that others,
2 other Serbs than Marko Samardzija, had acted out of vengeance? We're not
3 asking your opinion about whether they did. We're only asking you
4 whether other Muslims told you that apart from Marko Samardzija, other
5 Serbs also acted out of vengeance, whether this was told.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our sources were not only Muslims.
7 There were also a number of Serbs who have contributed and been -- and
8 whom we have interviewed in connection with the book.
9 We got the impression that it was very characteristic of
10 Marko Samardzija, but that this could also be more widespread, this
11 vengeance motive. But I cannot give you any names or references to what
12 concrete persons who acted on the basis of a vengeance motive apart from
13 what I've said about Marko Samardzija.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And do you have any concrete names of those you
15 interviewed who gave you this impression?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We spoke to, I believe, something
17 like a hundred different persons in connection with our work on this
18 book. It's 13 years ago. I could mention a few names, but I -- I don't
19 think it's correct to be specific about what other persons in a third
20 party view might have of vengeance motive, but as one of our interviewees
21 in connection with the book, I could mention
22 Skrago Savancic [as interpreted]. He was a member of the Municipal
23 Council in Kljuc. He didn't go into any interpretation of how this
24 vengeance motive should be understood.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'll leave it further in your hands, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Did you hear from people whom you interviewed
3 that the people who committed the abuse, the mistreatment, were
4 frequently drunk?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you also hear that Serbian units had problems with
7 discipline among the speedily assembled and frequently insufficiently
8 trained soldiers?
9 A. Well, it appears from one of the declarations that we have seen
10 from Marko Samardzija that he had to express himself also in writing. He
11 had to express himself to his soldiers in such a way as to discipline
12 them. So the answer to the question must be that these soldiers had been
13 gathered in a short time and that there might be disciplinary problems,
14 but apparently they were, nevertheless, able to undertake the work that
15 they were told to undertake.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] can we now look at page 36, please,
17 paragraph 4.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thirty-six in e-court, Mr. Lukic?
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Page 35 in English.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Weiss, paragraph 4, line 2, which states:
21 [In English] "There are many examples of how the guards in the
22 camp took the most gruesome vengeance on old wrongs, maybe all the way
23 back to a fight during their school days or some disagreement on basis --
24 on a business matter. This ethnic struggle which suddenly arose was used
25 as a cloak for --"
1 We lost the page. We need page 36 in e-court.
2 " ... which suddenly arose which was used as a cloak for
3 brutality, pettiness and greed."
4 [Interpretation] Is it therefore correct that you had heard from
5 people whom you questioned there were a lot of cases of vengeance
6 disguised by combat, and also there was greed under the guise of combat?
7 A. Page 36 does not refer to Biljani massacre. This refers to an
8 interview with a refugee in Denmark who's called Mihanovic,
9 Sulejman Mihanovic [phoen], and he gives a long interview about this. He
10 expressed that this was how he perceived it in his area. He's from
11 Kocavac [as interpreted] close to Prijedor. This is how he understood
13 Q. I'm sorry, it had nothing to do with Biljani. We'll move on.
14 Now I'm going to ask you something about the Samardzija case before the
15 court of Sarajevo. I have found in documents that you followed the trial
16 of Marko Samardzija, which was conducted in Sarajevo court; is that
18 A. Yes. I heard some of the Pale case. I lived for one year in
19 Sarajevo, and this coincided with this case.
20 Q. By following the trial [Danish on English channel] outcome both
21 in judgement and appeal stages, you know that Marko Samardzija was not
22 convicted of the murders; is that correct?
23 A. That's correct. It was only part of the indictment that was
25 Q. In the Bosnia-Herzegovina court in Sarajevo, he was convicted of
1 unlawful imprisonment of civilians; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, this is correct.
3 Q. During the trial, did you find out that the civilians who had
4 been picked up in Biljani were handed over to the police?
5 A. Well, I was under the impression that they were given or handed
6 over to the representatives of the army and the police. Both parties
7 were present at the school in Biljani where the men were transferred, but
8 it's true that police was an important part, the police was an important
9 part of the entire team.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, now we go to the trial.
11 MR. LUKIC: I have only one more question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Only one more question. Yes.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mrs. Weiss, the buses that were used to transport people from
15 Biljani to Kljuc or the buses that set off towards Kljuc, is it correct
16 that the only escort provided was that of the police?
17 A. I cannot answer that question.
18 MR. LUKIC: Bear with me, Your Honour. I was just checking when
19 our break is.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The break will be in approximately 15 minutes from
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] I am going to ask you now about the Serbs of
24 Kljuc after the war. You met Zdravko Stevandic. Who was that man?
25 A. He was a local classman. He was a member of the municipality of
1 Kljuc, and also in the period when he lived in Banja Luka, because he
2 didn't think there was any foundation for -- for returning, which he did
3 later on.
4 Q. You worked on the reconciliation project; is that correct?
5 A. It wasn't I personally -- worked on that project in Kljuc, but I
6 took part in forming some reconciliation projects, and I saw to it that
7 the first financing of these projects was made.
8 Q. After 1996, you visited Kljuc between 12 and 16 times according
9 to what you told us. What did you learn? How many Serbs returned to
11 A. The first period after the war, not very many returned, but among
12 other things, because of hard work from Marko Stevandic [as interpreted],
13 there were families in the villages who started returning, but they had a
14 difficult time adjusting, and some of them moved away again. And today
15 the population in Kljuc is quite -- is dominated by Bosniaks. It means
16 only a small percentage of Serbs and an even smaller percentage of
18 I would like to add that might make it even more understandable.
19 At the Dayton agreement, Kljuc municipality was split into two. This
20 means that Kljuc itself and the villages we have talked about so far,
21 they were on the Bosniak part, and right on the other side of the Dayton
22 line a new municipality Riplek [as interpreted] was set up. This is then
23 only the Serb population living here. So when I'm talking about Kljuc
24 municipality after the war, then it's the part that became the Bosniak
25 part. The other part is on the other side of the sector border.
1 Q. On the other side of the separation lines only a few villages
2 from the Kljuc municipality remained; is that correct?
3 A. It's not a very -- it's not as big as the part located on the
4 Bosniak side; that's correct.
5 Q. Do you know today who committed the murders in Biljani?
6 A. Do I know that personally? It's not my job to determine that.
7 It's the job of the Court.
8 Q. Thank you. Today you reviewed a number of military documents.
9 We are not going to go into each and every one of them. Is it true that
10 you're unable to comment on the contents of the document and the military
11 justification of the orders contained in those documents?
12 A. [In English] Have you -- have you finished your question?
13 Q. [In English] I think I did.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I -- what Mr. Lukic asked you was whether
15 you're unable to comment on the contents or on the possible military
16 justification for the orders described therein. Are you able or are you
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said previously, I have no in
19 depth knowledge of the various ranks in the military hierarchy, but of
20 course I can comment on the documents if the Court wants me to do so. I
21 would be willing to comment on the contents of the order. There's no
22 problem in that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That -- you are encouraged to do that only if you
24 have any personal knowledge about the order or the content of the order.
25 To comment in journalistic terms is not what we expect you to do.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But I have read the order that
2 is referred to, and my reading of it is that this is the way in which the
3 individual units were instructed regarding the specific assignments they
4 were to perform on the 10th of July from 5.00 a.m. That way of reading
5 it, there's no doubt about that.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mrs. Weiss, looking at your film, I noticed on the Muslim tombs
8 or headstones that are shown in this film, that there is an inscription
9 which reads "Sahid." Is it correct that the word "Sahid" means a fallen
11 A. My knowledge of the Bosniak language is not well enough for me to
12 go into any detailed definition.
13 Q. Thank you. In your research and in the interviews that you
14 conducted, did you find out anything about the fighting that was going on
15 between the Muslim and Serbian forces from the late May 1992?
16 A. As far as I remember, on the 28th of May, there was a Serbian
17 raid against a neighbouring town of Biljani, Vecici. The local people
18 tried using ordinary hunting weapons to resist, but they didn't stand a
19 chance against this overwhelming military power that eradicated the town,
20 and for that reason it ended up with something very similar to the
21 occurrence in Biljani, and that is that the men were taken to the school,
22 in this case in Vecici, and they were killed, all of them. However,
23 later on it turned out that a couple of witnesses had survived. And I
24 spoke to one of those witnesses, and I was given a very detailed
25 description of what happened, and this is also stated in my book.
1 Q. Do you know for how long Vecici resisted the Serb attacks? Do
2 you know that the fighting went on for six months?
3 A. No. I have no knowledge about that. I know that the massacre
4 that took place at the school in Vecici was over very quickly, and I
5 haven't heard of any major and comprehensive combat action for a long
6 time after that.
7 Q. We have heard evidence in this Tribunal, therefore, I'm not going
8 to burden you with this.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock. It is time for
10 a break. Could I invite you not to challenge what is not in evidence. I
11 mean, it's clear that this witness wasn't there at the time. Therefore,
12 there's better evidence.
13 MR. LUKIC: This question was obviously my mistake, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
15 MR. LUKIC: This question was obviously my mistake.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And also not to -- what is not tendered from the
17 book of course doesn't need to be challenged unless you find anything in
18 the book which of course would support your own case; in that case, in
19 cross-examination you have some latitude to deal with those matters.
20 Could I ask you where we are in terms of time after the break.
21 MR. LUKIC: I will reorganise myself, and I don't think that I
22 have much left.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mrs. Weiss, we take a break of 20 minutes.
24 You'll be escorted out of the courtroom.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 1.19 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
5 Meanwhile, Mr. Groome, the Chamber received an e-mail about an
6 inflexible witness this Chamber in all its flexibility doesn't know how
7 you become so inflexible, but if you want to call him in the first week
8 of February, then the Chamber will be able to hear his evidence.
9 MR. GROOME: I think our inquiry was what week we would be off so
10 we could schedule witnesses. Given the pattern we're working, whether
11 we're taking off the first week or the second week of February when --
12 JUDGE ORIE: We have not decided yet, but we are so flexible and
13 so accommodating that if that witness cannot come at any other time, the
14 Chamber will hear his evidence in that week.
15 MR. GROOME: I think the Chamber misunderstood the e-mail. It is
16 not about the witness being inflexible it's just that to schedule
17 witnesses, we just need to know when we are sitting. That's all it was
19 JUDGE ORIE: I thought there was a very special reason here.
20 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: But let's not further deal with the matter at this
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you're ready to proceed, please do so.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. And I have gone
1 through my questions and I have only one area left, very small area.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
3 MR. LUKIC: We would need 65 ter 27976. That's the book. Page
4 in English version 4, paragraph 3. Actually, in B/C/S version, page 4,
5 paragraph 3. In English version, page 2, paragraph 8. We have to add
6 one page. So in English it's page 3. We made page 2 from the book. In
7 English version we need paragraph 8. Starting with "None," yes.
8 Q. Ms. Weiss, in your book you said:
9 "None of the parties to the Bosnian war were merely villains or
10 merely victims. There were prison camps, expulsions and the burning of
11 houses in every part of the country. However, it was mostly Bosniaks who
12 came to Denmark and it was they who suffered the greatest loss of human
13 life, property and prospects for the future. This book makes use of
14 their point of view and makes no pretence of being a value-free
15 historical account."
16 [Interpretation] Would you say today as well that your intention
17 was not to be impartial?
18 A. When I put it in this way in the book, it's also to draw
19 attention to the fact that the greater part of the sources used in the
20 book are Bosniaks. That's partly due to the fact that the greater part
21 of the refugees that came to Denmark were Bosniaks, although there also
22 were Serbs and Croatians, but the Bosniaks were the greater part. But
23 something that you cannot get from this formulation in the book is that
24 the book should be siding with one or would be partial to one side. I
25 would describe the book in this way: It was a collection of the best
1 knowledge that was available in 1999. It was the knowledge that was
2 available with the sources that we had access to from all three
3 population groups.
4 Obviously, later on a great many details and connections have
5 been revealed, also in other court cases also concerning the Kljuc area.
6 The court case against Stakic and Breznic [as interpreted] and several
7 others. So you have to read this to mean that here I am communicating
8 the knowledge available at the time when the book was written.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the witness now carefully explained why
10 your question was wrong. Your question was:
11 "Would you say today as well that your intention was not to be
13 That could not reasonably read from the portion you read to the
14 witness, but the witness has better explained than I could do it that
15 your question was misinterpreting the book. Please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. At the time when you were writing the book, is it correct that
18 you used the Bosniaks' point of view and that you did not mean for your
19 book to be an impartial historical record, as we can find that written in
20 your book?
21 A. It's only true to the extent that the greater part of the sources
22 used in the book are Bosniaks, but it appears very clearly that another
23 significant person in the book is Marko Samardzija, who is a Serb and who
24 was much involved in what happened in Biljani. So to say this -- called
25 this partial in a negative sense, that I believe is not great.
1 Q. How would you call it, impartial -- partial in a positive sense?
2 Partial in a positive sense?
3 A. I don't know what this means, actually.
4 Q. [In English] The translation we got:
5 "So to say this," something "called this partial in a negative
6 way -- sense."
7 Something's missing from the transcript.
8 [Interpretation] And did you not also say that you would not
9 allow yourself to be Teflon coated, preventing you from being objective?
10 A. It's correct that in the documentary film I use this expression
11 involving Teflon, but that's in a different connection. That's in
12 connection with the general impression that a minister naturally gets
13 when he suddenly is responsible for 20.000 refugees from an area where
14 the worst imaginable things happen. And I also use this expression as a
15 sort of explanation for the fact that in addition to my professional
16 work, I have also later on been involved in conditions in Bosnia. I've
17 been involved in the further cross-ethnical peace process which is
18 characterised by the fact that both Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs take part
19 in this in Kljuc. So this is general comment.
20 Q. My last question: Is it correct that you lobbied in Denmark in
21 favour of the Muslim side?
22 A. No, this is not correct.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mrs. Weiss, thank you very much.
24 These are all the questions I had for you, and I would like to thank you
25 for answering them.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, any need for re-examination? I'm not
2 saying to finish your examination-in-chief, but re-examination.
3 MR. JEREMY: That's understood, Your Honour. No need for any
4 re-examination. Thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question for you. Mr. Lukic did put to
8 you, page 27 in e-court of 65 ter 27976, that is the excerpt of the book
9 where at the top of that page you explained that Mr. Samardzija's father
10 was killed and that revenge may have played a role in his acts.
11 Now, I understood that this is what you learned from
12 Mr. Samardzija himself and that you had similar information from others.
13 Now, in the page immediately preceding the last lines are and I'll read
14 them to you, "For him," and I'm referring to e-court, page 26, hard copy
15 page 25, "For him," and you were referring to Samardzija after you had
16 explained his position as the company commander, you wrote:
17 "For him, it was an inevitable war about creating a
18 'Greater Serbia.' His task was complete extermination."
19 When you wrote that down, was that also on the basis of what he
20 had told you, or was the basis for it information you received from other
21 persons? And I take it that it's just an impression you gained on the
22 basis of the sources I'm now asking you about.
23 A. This page was not shown on the screen, but I think I can answer
24 your question without having seen it.
25 I understood it was a referral to Samardzija's own attitude
1 towards the vengeance motive, and what he described in connection with
2 the 1941 incident was -- the job was to -- everybody above 12, big boys
3 and men, in this local area were supposed to be exterminated because they
4 were Serbs. I don't know if this is what you referred to, but I didn't
5 see the text on the screen.
6 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, we have the text on the screen, 27976,
7 e-court page 26.
8 Now, my question was not about what his attitude was but on what
9 basis you gained this impression.
10 A. Can I get the correct page, please? It's page 26 in the English
12 JUDGE ORIE: We have hard copy page 25, e-court page 26. That's
13 the same, and you find it at the very end of the page, last paragraph,
14 starting with, "We don't know whether Marko Samardzija himself shot
15 anyone." You then referred to his position as a company commander. And
16 I was focusing on the last lines which I read to you:
17 "For him, it was an inevitable war about creating a
18 'Greater Serbia.' His task was complete extermination."
19 I did not invite you to explain what you meant there, but I was
20 asking you whether you gained this impression on the basis of your
21 conversation with him or from any other source. That's my question.
22 A. Okay. I have now seen the real text -- or the correct text, so I
23 can now answer the question. It was the impression we got partly through
24 interviews with -- with him. It lasted two and a half hours. And the
25 impression we gained from a number of other sources that we talked with
1 both during our stay in July, August, but also a number of interviews
2 with sources that we were in touch with in Denmark.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Are you able to identify those sources or are you
4 not specifically on this element? If you can, please do so. If you
5 cannot, tell us.
6 A. I have it as a general impression. We could call it the sum of
7 all the information we got, but in addition, some of the persons that I
8 gather would also have to appear in court as protected witnesses. We
9 have also talked with these witnesses or these persons, and it would be
10 more relevant that it's their statements than my statements that apply.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Have my questions triggered any need for further
12 questions? If not, Mrs. Weiss, this then concludes your testimony in
13 this court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and
14 for having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and
15 by the Bench, and I would wish you a safe return home again.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn, Mr. Groome, when I said something
18 about inflexibility, I meant to inflexibility after a date had been set.
19 In the e-mail it says:
20 "Once we book him, he will not be able to alter his dates."
21 That's the only thing I referred to as part as inflexibility is
23 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, I would like to use the time
25 remaining to deliver a decision on the admissibility of the Philipps
2 The Chamber will now address the admissibility of the Philipps
3 report, the component parts of which remain marked for identification;
4 that is, P451, two organisational charts; P452; and P453, the latter
5 being explanatory notes; P454, which is an alphabetical list of units and
6 formations; and last, P455, alphabetical list of personnel.
7 The Chamber notes that the Prosecution requested that the report
8 be marked for identification pending the conclusion of Witness Philipps's
9 testimony, and the Defence indicated on the 9th of November, 2012, that
10 it maintains its objections to the report's admission raised in its
11 written submissions of the 20th of February, 2012, the
12 6th of March, 2012, and the 26th of March, 2012, all submissions on the
13 Prosecution Notice of Disclosure of the Philipps report under
14 Rule 94 bis.
15 The Chamber recalls that in its 1st of November, 2012, Decision
16 on Defence Motion to Disqualify Richard Philipps as an Expert and Bar the
17 Prosecution from Presenting his Report, the Chamber addressed the Defence
18 objections to the admission of the Philipps report. The Chamber
19 nevertheless deferred ruling upon its admission to give an opportunity to
20 the Defence to fully explore its challenges to the report's reliability
21 in cross-examination, particularly as regards Witness Philipps's
22 methodology and sources.
23 Having heard the evidence of Witness Philipps, especially in
24 relation to the sources used and the methods applied, the Chamber
25 considers that the objections to the reliability of the Philipps report
1 are unfounded and that it bears relevance and probative value meriting
2 admission into evidence under Rule 89(C) of the Rules.
3 Exhibits P451, P452, P453, P454, and P455 are hereby admitted
4 into evidence, and this concludes the Chamber's decision.
5 If there are -- are there any further procedural matters to be
6 raised at this moment?
7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Could I ask that we go into
8 private session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
10 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
15 We adjourn, and we will resume on Monday, the 19th of November,
16 quarter past 2.00 in this same Courtroom III.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.10 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day
19 of November, 2012, at 2.15 p.m.