121116ED

Page 5251

1 Mr. Ivetic will give the good example.

2 WITNESS: FRANCIS ROY THOMAS [Resumed]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

6 Q. Mr. Thomas, I would like to now ask you about some of the tactics

7 that you witnessed of the Bosnian Presidency forces, and first of all am

8 I correct that on several occasions you, that is to say the UNMO mission,

9 had to complain to the Presidency forces to move their mortars because

10 they were too close to UN buildings or facilities?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And at paragraph 20 of your statement, P503, and that's page 15

13 of the same, you talk of instances where the Bosnian Presidency forces

14 appeared to be firing at the Serbs trying to draw the Serbs to

15 counter-fire or retaliate. In those instances would you consider it

16 plausible or reasonable that a local artillery commander on the

17 Bosnian Serb side would have the level of autonomy to be able to respond

18 on his own to such an attack without seeking the approval of superiors?

19 A. I couldn't answer that question for sure.

20 Q. Fair enough. If we can briefly turn to --

21 A. Excuse me.

22 Q. If we could briefly turn to 1D424, and, sir, this is the

23 transcript from your testimony in the Karadzic proceedings, and if we

24 could turn to page 5 of this 65 ter number.

25 JUDGE ORIE: In order to make life easier for those coming after

Page 5252

1 us, page 2, line 12, paragraph 20 is at page 5. Please proceed.

2 MR. IVETIC:

3 Q. If we could focus in on lines 16 through 18, and here, sir, you

4 are talking about the Bosnian Serb artillery, and you say:

5 "So not only were they firing on a target that we couldn't

6 identify as being military, but they couldn't even analyse what they had

7 done."

8 Am I understanding your terminology to mean that the Serb

9 artillery could not visually confirm where their shot had fallen and what

10 their fire had accomplished vis-a-vis the target?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. Yesterday during direct, counsel asked you about the time period

13 pre-dating the Markale shelling. I'd like to ask you in relation to the

14 Markale 1 shelling, which occurred on the 5th of February, 1994, am I

15 correct that it was your view that the investigation was inconclusive,

16 that is to say it could not be established to a reasonable degree of

17 certainty which side fired that fateful round?

18 A. Based on those documents that I have seen, and I don't know

19 whether I've seen them all, that is still my conclusion.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. Am I also correct that you have knowledge of

21 another incident that sticks in -- that's significant where a civilian

22 appeared to have been killed on the airport road at the junction with the

23 Dobrinja road by sniper where the -- where there was a CNN media crew

24 nearby?

25 A. Yes. That incident was based on our judgement though. There was

Page 5253

1 never any proof. The only possible reason that we could see was because

2 a CNN convoy passed by within minutes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question is still very factual. Was

4 there an incident where a CNN crew was nearby? That's the only thing.

5 Why they were there, by -- for whatever reason, that's not part of the

6 question.

7 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't answer it correctly,

8 Your Honour.

9 Yes, the CNN crew passed by. They were not in the neighbourhood.

10 They passed by within minutes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 MR. IVETIC: I would like to call up number -- I apologise. Just

13 waiting for the B/C/S translation to catch up.

14 I would like to call up number 1D00433 in e-court and turn to

15 page 21 in the English and page 26 in the B/C/S.

16 Q. And while we wait for that, sir, this is an unredacted copy of

17 the statement that you have hopefully still in front of you, but you

18 won't see this text. It was redacted in that version. This is paragraph

19 number 92.

20 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that Mr. Registrar has difficulty with this

21 number. Could you please verify, Mr. Ivetic.

22 MR. IVETIC: 1D00433. And if we could then turn to page 21 in

23 the English and 26 in the B/C/S.

24 Q. And we're looking at then paragraph 92. And for purposes of the

25 record, I'll read the paragraph in its entirety before asking you my

Page 5254

1 follow-up questions:

2 "In mid-December 1993, I participated in an investigation of

3 attacks by Bosnian soldiers on several Serb villages near Han Pijesak. I

4 observed freshly burned houses and witness accounts indicated that all

5 who were caught were killed (0055-2665-0055-2665 is a report regarding

6 this incident). I believe this was done by the Bosnians to show the

7 Bosnian Serbs that they had limited troops and could not protect

8 everyone. I learned from an intelligence source aerial surveillance

9 showed that from October 1993 onwards there was a pattern of villages

10 destroyed in the same manner."

11 First of all, Mr. Thomas, could you affirm that this paragraph of

12 your redacted statement is true and correct.

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. And -- and if asked the same questions today, would you give the

15 same answers on this topic?

16 A. Yes, I would.

17 Q. I would like to now clarify. The pattern of villages destroyed

18 in the same manner, would those also have been ethnic Serb villages

19 presumed destroyed by Bosnian Presidency forces?

20 A. That I couldn't tell from the intelligence report.

21 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up in e-court 65 ter 28527. And

22 while we wait for this, I believe it is a report dated the

23 19th of December, 1993.

24 Q. Sir, if I could direct your attention to the English version. Do

25 you recognise this document as the report that resulted from your

Page 5255

1 investigation into the destroyed village referred to in paragraph 92 of

2 your unredacted statement?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If I can direct your attention to the middle of the page. We see

5 a number of other villages listed where it was alleged that similar

6 things happened. Do you know if these are the villages that are

7 referenced in the surveillance that showed about the affected territory?

8 A. No, I couldn't confirm that.

9 Q. Do you know if any investigations or formal complaints were

10 undertaken by either UNPROFOR or the UNMO mission relating to the actions

11 of the Presidency forces in any of these villages?

12 A. No action was taken because we received no further complaints

13 from the Bosnian Serbs about these villages.

14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document,

15 number 28527, as the next available exhibit number.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: It becomes Exhibit D102, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: D102 is admitted into evidence. Mr. Ivetic, by the

19 way what I think I intervened in a relatively early stage in the

20 examination-in-chief to ask for the basis for some of the observations by

21 this witness. Of course what the witness believes to be the case also

22 may need some factual basis. If you want to explore that, that might

23 assist the Chamber.

24 MR. IVETIC:

25 Q. Mr. Witness, could you please elaborate on how you came to the

Page 5256

1 belief that these villages were, in fact, destroyed by the

2 Bosnian Presidency forces and your belief that they wanted to show the

3 Bosnian Serbs that they could not protect everyone?

4 A. The first investigation was made on the only request made by the

5 Serbs to conduct an investigation. I was not satisfied that that was the

6 only occasion. I waited for a Serb -- follow-up Serb complaint. None

7 was received. I check with a NATO intelligence source. I was verbally

8 told that there were sufficient grounds to think that there had been

9 other villages, a belt of villages, that showed up as hot spots, and

10 that's all he would tell me. And I moved some Serbo-Croatian speaking

11 military observers towards the area Pale and looked at getting

12 accommodation so they could conduct investigations, and you have the

13 result of my report. But no further complaints were ever received, or,

14 no further requests for investigations were ever received. I passed this

15 report to my superiors in Zagreb, and they never directed that I conduct

16 further investigations either. In fact, they considered that by

17 deploying people to that area and a special team being prepared was a

18 waste of my resources.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, to -- I think I can understand what you said to

20 be in support of these attacks having been made by the Bosnians, also of

21 a certain pattern. At least there's -- I can imagine that you would use

22 this information as support for that, but I still have difficulties in

23 understanding how what you told us could be a factual basis for the --

24 your belief that it was done to show the Bosnian Serbs that they had

25 limited troops and could not protect everyone, that that was the thought

Page 5257

1 behind these attacks.

2 THE WITNESS: Because I was quite surprised at the --

3 professionally surprised at the ability of the Bosnian forces to have

4 come 200 kilometres, because these forces did not originate in Sarajevo,

5 to have come almost 200 kilometres into -- within 20 kilometres of the

6 major Serb -- Bosnian Serb headquarters and completely destroy a village

7 with a large party of men and then drive the cattle off, quite a large

8 herd of cattle off in the direction of Bijelvo Selo [phoen]. I cannot

9 believe that --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it seems it's your logic --

11 THE WITNESS: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- which leads you to this conclusion as the purpose

13 of the exercise.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. I'd like to take a look at your amalgamated statement again,

17 P503, and focus on paragraph the 99 of the same, which will be found on

18 page 31 in the English and page 38 in the B/C/S. While we wait for that,

19 I will advise that here you are talking about the large amount of

20 equipment the Bosnian Presidency forces had in the Kosevo tunnel and that

21 this tunnel was therefore turned into a weapons collection point.

22 Can you enlighten us on what kind of equipment you are talking

23 about?

24 A. Well, there's an earlier document that was submitted as evidence

25 that detailed the sitrep I received, the intelligence analysis I

Page 5258

1 received, such as it was, intelligence, when I took over the job. So any

2 equipment that we had not been able to see was found in the tunnel, and

3 you can just look at the list of equipment that's on that other document

4 and guess that most of that equipment was found in the tunnel.

5 Q. Could you identify for us where this particular tunnel is located

6 and if it is in addition to the two tunnels that were discussed yesterday

7 or if it's one and the same?

8 A. This is a road tunnel that's found in the centre of Sarajevo.

9 Q. And is it distinct from the two tunnels that we discussed

10 yesterday?

11 A. Most definitely. Those were on the front line -- or one was

12 under the airport.

13 Q. Did your mission have information about the use of the Tuzla

14 airport by the Bosnian Presidency forces to transport guns and personnel

15 and ammunition into the Bosnian Muslim enclaves of Gorazde, Zepa, and

16 Srebrenica?

17 A. I have no idea. That was outside my area of responsibility and I

18 had enough to do in Sarajevo.

19 Q. One last question for you, sir, just to be clear. In the course

20 of your time as the SMO in Sarajevo, you never personally witnessed

21 General Mladic giving orders for combat to any units of the

22 Bosnian Serb Army, did you?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. I thank you for your time.

25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

Page 5259

1 witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

3 Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Ms. Bolton?

4 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:

6 Q. Good morning. The tunnel that you were just referring to, the

7 road tunnel, the Kosevo tunnel, could you tell me whether that was ever

8 the subject of artillery bombardment by the Bosnian Serb Army during your

9 time in Sarajevo?

10 A. I couldn't say for sure. That general area received hits, but it

11 was not a specific target that we could determine.

12 Q. Was it ever struck so that the actual tunnel collapsed?

13 A. No, it wasn't.

14 Q. And was there ever concentrated fire in that area?

15 A. No, there never was concentrated fire on almost any area.

16 Q. You were asked a few minutes ago about a report you prepared on

17 an investigation in the area of a village called Pocolovaka [phoen], and

18 my question is: How much villages did you actually physically visit to

19 investigate the allegations of the Bosnian Serbs?

20 A. I only visited one area in particular, and we received

21 information on the others.

22 Q. The aerial information that you received, could it assist you in

23 determining who had been responsible for any damage that you could see

24 from the aerial photos?

25 A. I didn't get to see the aerial photos. This individual -- I was

Page 5260

1 not privy to this particular information. The individual gave did to me

2 to assist me in indicating that there had been activity in those areas,

3 but there was no further -- we needed to investigate on the ground. We

4 did not have the evidence we needed.

5 Q. And so in terms of, for example, speaking to survivors of these

6 alleged attacks, did you ever have that opportunity?

7 A. In fact, the one village we did visit, there were no survivors

8 that we could talk to.

9 Q. So was -- the incidents with respect to the other villages, were

10 they ever UNMO confirmed?

11 A. No.

12 Q. With respect to the incident my friend was asking about involving

13 somebody being killed by a sniper and CNN passing by shortly thereafter,

14 was there ever any determination as to who was responsible for killing

15 that civilian?

16 A. No, there was ...

17 Q. You've also indicated here today that in respect of the Markale 1

18 or February 5th, 1994, incident, that your opinion is based on the

19 documents you've seen, and you don't know whether you have seen them all.

20 Have you ever seen any expert reports in relation to this incident?

21 A. Yes. I think I -- well, depends on the definition of "expert."

22 Q. Let me --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton. Ms. Bolton.

24 MS. BOLTON: Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I think there are some adjudicated facts as to the

Page 5261

1 source of fire on the 5th of February, 1994. I was already slightly

2 surprised, if I may say so, that Mr. Ivetic asked the witness whether on

3 the basis of the report at that time had a certain opinion. Two

4 questions: The first the basis for that opinion would be limited to what

5 existed in that year; second, whether the witness is sufficiently

6 qualified to evaluate all those reports. And now before we go on to

7 further explore what one could conclude if one would have only available

8 the material at that time, whether that assists the Chamber is highly

9 unlikely. I mean, if it's --

10 MS. BOLTON: No, I --

11 JUDGE ORIE: It would have been thoroughly dealt with by

12 Mr. Ivetic I can imagine that you want to put further questions. But the

13 only thing Mr. Ivetic asked is, Looking at the reports at that time, do

14 you still believe and is that still your conclusion. I can tell you one

15 thing for certain, that the Chamber will not stop at that time in

16 evaluating information available on this incident. Please proceed. And

17 whether the witness has seen any later reports, yes or no, and what his

18 beliefs are or what his opinions are, if he's not an expert, seems to be

19 of low relevance and low probative value.

20 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. I appreciate the Trial Chamber's

21 direction on that issue.

22 Q. If I could just go back to a few issues from your testimony

23 yesterday, sir. If you would just bear with me while I put on my

24 glasses.

25 Yesterday during examination, you were read an excerpt of -- in

Page 5262

1 which you had been discussing the Swiss model and the issue of

2 Yugoslav Territorial Defence units. Do you recall that line of

3 questioning?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. And part of what you were asked about was the idea that the

6 Territorial Defence had depots or storage facilities where they would

7 have kept ammunition, for example.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what actually happened to

10 anything that would have been stored in those depots when the hostilities

11 broke out in Yugoslavia in 1992?

12 A. No, I don't. It would have been issued out before my time.

13 Q. And do you have actually any personal knowledge of there being

14 ammunition depots within the city of Sarajevo, held by the Bosnian

15 forces?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You were asked the following questions and answers yesterday.

18 MS. BOLTON: And, Your Honours, I had only the temporary

19 transcript available. I don't know if that's a complete transcript

20 available, but I'll read from page 51 of the temporary transcript.

21 Q. This is what you were asked, starting at line 5, and this is --

22 the question that was asked to you was:

23 "Q. Did you have occasion in Gorazde to have the Kopaca," then

24 unintelligible or unintelligible location identified for you, "... which

25 was the reserve rear command of the SFRY high command, a significant

Page 5263

1 bunker and command structure."

2 You said:

3 "No.

4 "Q. Would such structures, if they existed, be legitimate

5 military targets for an opposing force?

6 "A. Yes, and if Your Honour would give me the caveat. If it was

7 known, so widely known, why was it not shelled ... before I got there."

8 And my question for you is: Was the SFRY a party to the conflict

9 in Bosnia when you were there in 1993?

10 A. No. You have to explain that acronym to me, actually.

11 Q. It would be the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, sir.

12 A. It was -- the Bosnian Serb government -- I mean the Serbian

13 government was not a party in Yugoslavia when I was there.

14 Q. At page 56 of yesterday's transcript, you were asked some

15 questions about a tunnel that you described as being dug from the front

16 lines on Bosnian Presidency territory towards the Serb front lines, and

17 you indicated in your response to Mr. Ivetic's question at the bottom of

18 page 55, he asked you:

19 "And first of all, perhaps it's best for the witness to confirm.

20 Am I correct that this is a different tunnel," it should say, "than the

21 one that was under the airport?"

22 And you said:

23 "Absolutely. This was as I stated in my earlier testimony, the

24 Serbs accused the Bosnians of making tunnels towards their front lines

25 and the -- this is one of the excuses they used for sniper fire."

Page 5264

1 At whom were they firing and using it as an excuse?

2 A. This would be sniper fire on the front lines.

3 Q. Was it ever used as an excuse for sniper fire at -- at civilian

4 targets, to your recollection?

5 A. No, it wasn't.

6 Q. At pages 58 and 59 of -- or 59 of the transcript yesterday, you

7 were asked about troop movements for the Bosnian Serb forces, the

8 rotation of troops, and you were asked if you would agree that the

9 Bosnian Presidency forces in Sarajevo had to be moved from more interior

10 positions towards the front lines.

11 Could you tell me whether the Bosnian Presidency forces had

12 available to them motorised -- enough motorised vehicle to move troops to

13 the front line?

14 A. No, they did not. In fact, they never used motorised transport

15 to move their troops to the front line.

16 Q. And so how would their troops reach the front line?

17 A. By walking, and that would mean they would be close to the front

18 lines to save time.

19 Q. And was there ever an occasion when you saw a large group or a

20 large body, for example, of soldiers moving towards the front line from,

21 say, the very centre of Sarajevo?

22 A. No, but I was caught up in a column of soldiers moving -- of

23 people in civilian dress moving to the front line with no weapons, no

24 equipment, who were going to presumably acquire that when they got to the

25 front line, and I was surprised that we weren't subjected to shelling.

Page 5265

1 Q. So these were unarmed soldiers; is that correct?

2 A. They were unarmed males, and I can only imagine they were moving

3 to the front to replace people that were there.

4 Q. There were some questions about French kit which was described as

5 uniform and equipment yesterday. What pieces of equipment were you

6 referring to?

7 A. Primarily the helmet and the flak jacket. And the flak jacket I

8 can only identify when I got closer to the body of men.

9 Q. You were also asked yesterday if you would agree with the

10 proposition there were approximately 25.000 armed Bosnian Presidency

11 soldiers that were located in Sarajevo as part of the 1st Corps.

12 First of all, could you tell me if you know what percentage of

13 the 25.000 would be on the front lines at any one time?

14 A. I have no idea.

15 Q. Did you receive -- I'm sorry. I'm going too fast, I think. Did

16 you receive any -- or can you recall if you received any intelligence

17 information about that?

18 A. The UN didn't engage in really intelligence information, and we

19 weren't tasked to acquire intelligence information. So I'm basing my

20 agreement yesterday of 25.000, because that's what I was given in my

21 report that I received on taking command.

22 Q. If we could have -- you're referring to the report as part of

23 your briefing.

24 MS. BOLTON: Could we have 65 ter 28558, please. It would be

25 page 1.

Page 5266

1 Q. In the middle of this document here is an indication that it was

2 estimated the Bosnians have approximately 25.000 men in the arms in

3 Sarajevo, out of which a third are permanently on the front line.

4 And if we could scroll to the top of this document, please. This

5 document's called "Description warring factions." Have you seen this

6 document before?

7 A. Yes, I have.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers kind lip not overlap for the

9 sake of interpreters. Thank you.

10 MS. BOLTON:

11 Q. Was this one of the documents that you received at the time of

12 your briefing?

13 A. Yes. You'll note my initial on the top, and that was there

14 before all the documentation stamps were put on it.

15 Q. Okay. Further -- at the very bottom of the page as it's

16 displayed in English it says, and I don't need it to be moved, it's

17 difficult -- this is with respect to the Bosnian weaponries, it's

18 difficult to get exact numbers of heavy weapons, but an estimation,

19 Bosnians have five tanks, 10 to 15 armoured vehicles, and up to 50

20 artillery and mortar weapons which they do not have the ammunition.

21 You were referring earlier today about some information you

22 received or about, sorry, weapons that you saw in the tunnel.

23 A. Yes. We saw the weapons in the tunnel after the cease-fire.

24 MS. BOLTON: I'm finished with that document now. Thank you,

25 Your Honour.

Page 5267

1 Q. Yesterday you were also asked some questions about civilians, and

2 you were asked if civilians including women and elderly and kids wore

3 uniforms or partial uniforms, and you said yes. What did you mean when

4 you said they were wearing uniforms?

5 A. Some of the aid that was received from other European countries

6 included cast-off uniforms. For example, a popular uniform that was

7 there was the German uniform. They had bits and pieces of old uniforms.

8 And I suppose they had uniforms as well from the -- their relatives that

9 were in the forces who might have been killed.

10 Q. And you then were asked --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, let's wait for the translation to

12 finish.

13 MS. BOLTON:

14 Q. You were then asked, sir, if you agreed that such a situation

15 could cause a degree of confusion in identifying combatants, and you said

16 no. Why do you say that?

17 A. Because generally the women and children were easily identifiable

18 as women and children.

19 Q. You were asked some questions yesterday at page 62 and 63 of the

20 temporary transcript about shelling of -- by Croatian forces in Kiseljak

21 that landed inside the Papa side of Sarajevo, and you responded to that

22 question at the top of page 63:

23 "No. It wasn't UNMO confirmed. The only reason that we

24 suspected is the calibre of round was different, and also there were

25 reports of French guns that were owned by the Croatians in Kiseljak

Page 5268

1 firing ... we made a correlation between the two ... so those why we

2 maintained suspected."

3 And subsequently on page 64 on the same subject, you said -- you

4 referred to this as this particular incident.

5 Was there more than one occasion or only one occasion when you

6 had reason to suspect because of the calibre of round being different

7 that the shelling came possibly from Croatia?

8 A. There was only one occasion that it was brought to my attention,

9 but when we asked the UNPROFOR headquarters, they said that this wasn't

10 the first -- the only occasion that it had happened.

11 Q. What was the calibre of round?

12 A. It was a medium artillery, and again we can't confirm because we

13 didn't have anybody there, but there were some medium artillery pieces

14 that we were -- that professionally we were interested in, in the area of

15 Kiseljak which were suspected to be of French origin, sold to some

16 Croatians by the French or supplied.

17 Q. Are there differences in the size of calibres of rounds used by

18 French forces than by the forces in the former JNA?

19 A. The NATO standard is 155. The Russian standard is 152 for medium

20 guns. And I could be wrong, but all the medium guns that I saw on the

21 JNA -- or provided by the Bosnians to the Bosnian Serbs were

22 152 millimetre.

23 Q. You were asked at pages 79 and 80 of the temporary transcript

24 yesterday about a disagreement you had with General Soubirou on one

25 occasion where he seemed inclined to accept information provided to him

Page 5269

1 by the Bosnian government over information provided to him by one of your

2 UNMOs, and you subsequently indicated in response to questionings about

3 how often this had occurred, and your answer was none. No other

4 occasions "I can recall right now. The only one I recall was the exact

5 opposite of the case you just presented."

6 By exact opposite, do I take it to mean there was an occasion

7 when General Soubirou seemed to -- inclined to accept information

8 provided by the Bosnian Serb side over information from your UNMOs?

9 A. No, it isn't -- it doesn't involve General Soubirou. It involves

10 General Rose. My observers considered that weapons battery -- a battery

11 of the Bosnian Serb certainly was inside the 20-kilometre zone and

12 General Rose disagreed, but I insisted that my guy was right and I would

13 accept his statement.

14 Q. On the topic of General Rose, you were asked --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then ask you, what then is the -- is the

16 opposite that General Rose followed your advice or?

17 THE WITNESS: No. They discovered then that we didn't have

18 agreement on where the actual centre of the radius of the 20-kilometre

19 zone was, and that was established.

20 JUDGE ORIE: How -- I have difficulties understanding how this is

21 the opposite of the other example.

22 THE WITNESS: Well, it involved a Serbian complaint that we

23 were -- that this gun position was not inside the inclusion zone, and it

24 was -- and involved a different general.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I therefore understand that the opposite

Page 5270

1 was that it was related to the opposite party --

2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- where a similar discussion took place.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's correct, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.

6 MS. BOLTON:

7 Q. You were read a passage yesterday -- or a couple passages from a

8 statement provided by General Rose, one of which suggested in which

9 one -- in one of which General Rose suggested that he believed Ganic had

10 organised his secret police to snipe trams. And you went on to say you

11 had no knowledge of that. You were then asked if you had visited a

12 Bosnian Presidency position which was under the control of the police

13 rather than the army. You said you had. And I just wanted to be clear.

14 The -- when you talk about the police, and my friend talked about Ganic's

15 secret police, are we talking about the same thing?

16 A. No, we definitely aren't. These people wore uniforms, and I can

17 add that they were nowhere near the trams.

18 Q. And they wore police uniforms or military uniforms?

19 A. They wore police uniforms.

20 Q. You were also read a portion of General Rose's statement where he

21 was critical of the UNMOs, and I just want to continue reading where my

22 friend left off yesterday. He read a portion that - I'll read the last

23 sentence or two - said, the UNMOs:

24 "Many were not technically competent and some were sold out.

25 They were captured by the ones they were -- they were ... with." It

Page 5271

1 continues to say:

2 "They were UNMOs at Pale and Belgrade. I am unaware of whether

3 there were UNMOs based at Lukavica -- Lukavica. I guess the Belgrade

4 ones were monitoring the airport. They were not under my command."

5 You told us earlier in your evidence about your UNMOs being held

6 technically hostage at Lukavica Barracks in April 1994. Was General Rose

7 in command in April of 1994?

8 A. Yes, he was.

9 Q. And did you make him aware of that incident?

10 A. Yes, he was aware of that incident. He was also aware that I had

11 50 people on the Serb side, including my headquarters for the Lima team

12 in Lukavica.

13 Q. Page 87 of yesterday's transcript, it was suggested to you that,

14 starting at lines 12, by Mr. Ivetic:

15 "Would you agree with me, sir, that due to the manner in which

16 the observation locations were set I -- that on the Serb side of the

17 confrontation line the casualties were not adequately covered by the

18 reports."

19 And you responded --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters while

21 reading. Thank you very much.

22 MS. BOLTON: "A. I would agree."

23 In order for the UN to confirm a casualty on either side of the

24 confrontation line, so a death or a wounding, what did your protocol

25 require?

Page 5272

1 A. Our protocol required us to go and see the body and the injured

2 person, to visit them in hospital or to go to the morgue, and we visited

3 the morgue in Sarajevo every night.

4 Q. And were you given free access to hospitals or morgues on the

5 Bosnian Serb side of the confrontation line?

6 A. No. The only occasion I recall that we got access to a hospital

7 was when we brought a wounded Serb soldier into the hospital.

8 Q. The final area I want to ask you about is the questioning

9 yesterday about UNMO involvement in humanitarian aid escorts.

10 Now, in your answers yesterday, you indicated -- you were asked

11 questions about how often the UNMOs were called upon to facilitate this

12 task, and I want to just make sure I understand your evidence. You

13 mentioned that humanitarian aid agencies would come to headquarters and

14 ask for information. How often did that occur?

15 A. Every day.

16 Q. And did that affect your ability to man your observation posts?

17 A. No. They were welcomed in my operations room, and they got the

18 same briefing we accorded General Soubirou or any other visitor to our

19 headquarters.

20 Q. And in terms of whether -- or how frequently UNMOs were actually

21 involved in escorting convoys, how often would that occur?

22 A. It would happen as rarely as possible. We did it in the case of

23 Gorazde when we had to. And I'm afraid, I admit it, when other

24 humanitarian assistance area that we were involved in, almost a daily

25 basis, and that was in the Zepa pocket where the UN representative was

Page 5273

1 only there four months of the nine months in Sarajevo and the senior

2 military observer in Zepa had to assume the responsibilities to represent

3 the UN in all humanitarian activities including distribution of money and

4 fuel.

5 Q. And was it -- did it affect your ability to have sufficient men

6 or women to man your observation posts in Sarajevo and perform the

7 monitoring of incoming and outgoing fire by needing to escort

8 humanitarian aid convoys?

9 A. I'm not happy with the use of the word "escort." They basically

10 wanted information, and, yes, I had to take a military observer and

11 assign him to the job of liaison to non-governmental agencies and to

12 UNHCR and aid agencies strictly for liaison on a 24 and 7 duty roster.

13 So I lost one military observer to do that job full time, and that's a

14 job I created in my time based on the amount of work we had to do

15 liaising, providing information. And I would ask you to remember that we

16 were the only UNPROFOR element on the Bosnian Serb side.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, the Chamber wonders where we are at this

18 moment in terms of time.

19 MS. BOLTON: I am at the last question, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The last question can be put to the witness.

21 MS. BOLTON:

22 Q. In questioning about a document yesterday regarding the delivery

23 of aid, you were asked about if there were incidents where

24 notwithstanding the Serbs agreeing to the delivery of aid it couldn't be

25 done because of other issues involving, for example, the drivers, the

Page 5279

1 to address you, Ms. or Mrs. Weiss. But ...

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Mrs.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Weiss, you will first be examined by

4 Mr. Jeremy. Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the Prosecution, and you will find

5 him to your right. Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.

6 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Examination by Mr. Jeremy:

8 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Weiss.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. In a few sentences could you please provide an outline of your

11 professional background.

12 A. Well, yes. I am a trained journalist, and I supplemented that

13 education with studies of literature at Copenhagen university. I was a

14 member of the Danish parliament for 25 years, which I served as a

15 minister for eight years, having different ministerial posts. I was a

16 deputy chair of the Social Democratic Party for 12 years, and in 2001, I

17 decided to leave politics and go back to my original profession as a

18 journalist.

19 Q. What are you currently doing now?

20 A. Currently I work as a literary critic and reviewer for a Danish

21 newspaper called "Weekendavisen," and in addition to that, I occasionally

22 write reports from various places in the world for the same newspaper.

23 Q. And you mention that you held a number of different ministerial

24 posts. Was one of those posts minister of the interior?

25 A. Yes. I was minister for the interior from February 1993 to

Page 5280

1 October 1997. In addition to that, I have been minister for health, I'm

2 minister for research, I'm minister for ecclesiastical affairs.

3 Q. And focusing on your time as minister of the interior, was your

4 work connected to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. Yes, it was, to a very great extent. We received 20.000 Bosnian

6 refugees in Denmark, and it was a major task for us both in terms of

7 logistics but also, of course, in terms of politics.

8 Q. And you mentioned that you left the ministry -- your position as

9 minister of the interior in 1997. Why did you leave your position at

10 that time?

11 A. It had nothing to do with the Bosnian refugees or the policies

12 pursued in relation to them. The reason was a more fundamental

13 disagreement concerning the long-term immigrant policy, disagreement

14 between the prime minister and myself, and for that reason the logical

15 consequence was that I left my post.

16 Q. And very briefly, what was your position in respect to the

17 refugees at that time?

18 A. I was in charge of a policy which was not to be too rigid as

19 regarded the reception of the refugees, and in addition to that I was to

20 pursue an inclusive policy concerning the integration of the refugees who

21 were given permit to stay in Denmark.

22 Q. Have you written any books that are relevant to the region, to

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. Yes, I have. I've written two books. One is particularly

25 relevant in relation to this case. It's called "Witness of Madness," and

Page 5281

1 it concerns the situation in the north-western part of Bosnia, among

2 other places, and I co-wrote it with a university lecturer by the name of

3 Karsten Fledelius, who is from Copenhagen university. He's an historian.

4 He speaks the language, the local language, that is, and he studied at

5 the university of Beograd when he was young.

6 Q. Were you in the north-western part of Bosnia in November 1996?

7 A. Yes, I was. I was there even before then. I was there in

8 June 1996, and I returned a couple of months later.

9 Q. And where in particular were you at that time, in November 1996?

10 A. I was in Kljuc and in the area, the nearby area of Kljuc.

11 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honours, in case it is of assistance,

12 Kljuc is referred to on pages 17 and 18 of the Prosecution's municipality

13 map book.

14 Q. Mrs. Weiss, you've referred to your trip to Kljuc in

15 November 1996. What was the original purpose of that trip?

16 A. Well, the original purpose of my trip was that in my capacity as

17 minister of the interior, I was going there to inaugurate a number of

18 buildings that Denmark had donated to the municipality of Kljuc. They

19 were buildings intended for refugees from the area, refugees staying in

20 Denmark but who wanted to go back very quickly, and it was to provide a

21 shelter for them, because the vast majority of the buildings in the

22 villages around the town of Kljuc were completely destroyed and that was

23 why they needed to have a place to live while they were building their

24 own houses.

25 Q. And briefly, what could you observe of Kljuc in November 1996?

Page 5282

1 A. Well, Kljuc, the town of Kljuc, was like a ghost town. There

2 were no people there, or very few people, that is, almost no cars in the

3 street, and almost all the shops were closed. And the reason for this

4 was that the entire Muslim part of the population had been cleansed away

5 in 1992 and 1993. And later in 1995, the Serb part of the population --

6 sorry.

7 Q. Sorry, please continue.

8 THE INTERPRETER: I've asked the witness to repeat it, because

9 there was a person in the booth disturbing.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can repeat my answer. The

11 reason why the atmosphere was very ghost-like was that the majority of

12 the population had simply fled the town in 1992 and in -- and in 1993 the

13 Muslim part of the population was thrown out, and later when the area was

14 recaptured, a major part of the Serb population fled the local area.

15 MR. JEREMY:

16 Q. And what is the basis of the observations you've just made in

17 respect to Kljuc?

18 A. Well, the basis was that in those days I moved around in the area

19 to a great extent with the Major Hadic, and I was shown several villages

20 in which there were basically not a single house intact, left intact. I

21 was also shown how a number of mosques, I think there were about 12 or 13

22 of them in total, they had been destroyed. And if I recall it correctly,

23 the number stated concerning the number of buildings destroyed in the

24 area, well, that number's 6.387.

25 Q. And approximately how many times have you been back to Kljuc

Page 5283

1 since you were there in November 1996, just roughly?

2 A. Well, I couldn't give you the exact figure, but it's somewhere

3 between 12 and 15 times.

4 Q. And where were you on the 8th of November, 1996?

5 A. I was in Kljuc, as I said before. I was there to -- well, excuse

6 me, what was the question? Could you repeat, please?

7 Q. Where were you on the 8th of November, 1996?

8 A. I was in Kljuc, and as I said, I was there to inaugurate the

9 buildings that had been donated by Denmark, and in this connection it

10 turned out that I was also involved in the exhumation of one of the local

11 mass graves, and I was involved in the identification of the remains of

12 part of the male population from the small town called Biljani, which

13 lies outside Kljuc.

14 Q. And why were you involved with that exhumation?

15 A. Well, on the trip down there from Denmark, we stopped over in

16 Bihac and I had meetings with the OTA and UNHCR, and I was indirectly

17 then invited to be the reliable witness from the outside who could then

18 afterwards tell about what went on over those days, and quite exactly as

19 I've been prepared to, the mayor, Hadic, he invited me to take part, and

20 of course I did this.

21 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, Ms. Stewart will now play a video in

22 Sanction. This is 65 ter 28085A, and I note there are no words and there

23 is no transcript, so I hope we can only play it once.

24 [Video-clip played]

25 MR. JEREMY:

Page 5284

1 Q. Mrs. Weiss, the woman that we saw on that clip with her hand over

2 her mouth, who was that?

3 A. That was me.

4 Q. And where are you?

5 A. That was out in the Laniste farm, which is a few kilometres

6 outside Kljuc town. That was where several mass graves had been found,

7 and this one was called Laniste 1, and here was found a very large number

8 of human remains from Biljani.

9 Q. And did you attend any other locations in connection with the

10 excavation of the bodies from this mass grave?

11 A. Yes. Later on in the same day I took part in the identification,

12 which took place in the grammar school gymnasium. The bodies had been

13 laid out in rows, and the relatives then walked about trying to recognise

14 their family members, and at the same time they were requested to

15 identify objects that had been found on the bodies or that had been found

16 lying around in the grave. And I should add maybe that this was before

17 DNA technology had been taken into use in connection with such

18 identifications.

19 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, Ms. Stewart will now play another

20 video in Sanction, which is 65 ter 28085B. There are a few words in the

21 final seconds of this video, so you might wish to play it twice.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to rely on it, on the words?

23 MR. JEREMY: We don't need to rely on the words.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If we do not rely on it, if we put the sound that

25 includes now then the music low, then we don't have to play it twice.

Page 5285

1 [Video-clip played]

2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Birte Weiss: I was not prepared

3 that we would -- that we would be asked to be present at such a thing."

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I should have explained to our Danish

5 interpret what the situation is. Since we do not rely on the words,

6 there was no need to translate them, but I have been unclear in this

7 respect.

8 Let's proceed.

9 MR. JEREMY:

10 Q. Ms. Weiss, you mentioned being at this school gymnasium and

11 identifying the -- certain of the bodies. Is that what was happening in

12 the footage that we just saw?

13 A. Yes, precisely.

14 Q. And do both of the clips that we have just watched accurately

15 depict your attendance firstly at the Laniste 1 excavation and secondly

16 at the -- at the Biljani school?

17 A. Yes. They give a glimpse, which is a correct picture of what

18 happened, but I was there over some days, so it was a lot more than just

19 this.

20 Q. And briefly, you refer to a picture of what happened. What

21 picture were you able to build up of what has happened?

22 A. Well, it was quite clear that it was massacre that had taken

23 place and that the bodies from this massacre, that they had been thrown

24 into a -- what I remember as a 20-metre deep cliff, and they were now dug

25 out.

Page 5286

1 Q. You refer to a massacre. Were you told where that massacre took

2 place?

3 A. Yes, in Biljani.

4 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I tender into evidence these two clips

5 as the next public Prosecution exhibits.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I hear no objections. Mr. Registrar, the two clips

7 would receive what numbers?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 28085A becomes Exhibit P515,

9 and 65 ter 28085B becomes Exhibit P516.

10 JUDGE ORIE: P515 and P516 are admitted into evidence.

11 MR. JEREMY:

12 Q. Mrs. Weiss, did you again visit Kljuc in July 1999?

13 A. Yes. I visited Kljuc, and this time I stayed for three weeks,

14 starting in July and finishing in August.

15 Q. And why did you visit Kljuc at this time?

16 A. I visited Kljuc because I had -- it had been decided that I

17 should gather my impressions in the form of a book, and I went there to

18 try to provide additional material and primarily to confirm or disconfirm

19 a number of the both oral and written statements I'd heard about what had

20 happened in Biljani in the three years that had passed since 1996. So it

21 was to get an additional foundation of the book I had decided to write.

22 Q. Specifically, what was your book intended to be about?

23 A. That was to be about two things: First, a description of the

24 refugee conditions in Denmark, and I chose a very specific refugee group,

25 namely people who came from Bosnian Krajina and thus also Kljuc,

Page 5287

1 et cetera. That was one purpose.

2 And the other purpose was to describe what they were flying from.

3 What were the events that took place that brought them to a foreign

4 country and what led to the fact that they couldn't stay at home, in

5 their home country.

6 Q. And how did you obtain the material for this book?

7 A. I got it in many ways. As I mentioned before, there were a

8 number of refugees from this area in Denmark, and I got in close contact

9 with them. It was a larger group of people. And in addition, we

10 collected -- we -- it's me and Karsten Fledelius that I mentioned before,

11 we collected material on -- when we were there in 1999. But it was a

12 process that stretched over three years, actually.

13 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, Ms. Stewart will now play another

14 video, 65 ter 28085C in Sanction. This time I do rely on the words,

15 so --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps also to inform the Danish interpret, we'll

17 play this video the first time without translation. You are, however,

18 invited to listen carefully and to check whether the transcript you have

19 received is corresponding with the text spoken, and then we play it for a

20 second time in which we expect translation to be there.

21 Now, I've not been informed about the Danish interpreters. Will

22 they interpret from English, that is, the English translation, the

23 English interpretation as provided by the colleagues, or is it that the

24 English words are spoken in the video-clip itself?

25 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, Danish words are spoken on the

Page 5288

1 video-clip, among other words, and those are translated into English. We

2 already have English subtitles.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore, in the second round, the Danish

4 interpreter is invited to interpret into English.

5 Let's proceed with the first round of viewing and listening to

6 the video.

7 [Video-clip played]

8 JUDGE ORIE: We will now play it again with translation.

9 [Video-clip played]

10 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be -- we usually, and that's perhaps

11 I've not been clear enough, we usually do not rely on the subtitles, but

12 we usually work on the basis of the interpretation given in court of the

13 words spoken, as I understand here, spoken in Danish. Could we play it

14 again and hear the simultaneous interpretation.

15 [Video-clip played]

16 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Birte Weiss: The police in Kljuc

17 were very helpful in relation to helping us in our hunt for Samardzija.

18 One might say that they actually helped us to lay down a strategy for

19 finding him.

20 "Police chief: I told you that we found something -- some

21 literature in the school, something that he had written. We can show you

22 and you can read this.

23 "Karsten Fledelius: You should show us some of the literary he

24 wrote. We would be very interested in that. What did he write?

25 "Police chief: This is the document where you can see the

Page 5289

1 signature of Marko Samardzija."

2 MR. JEREMY:

3 Q. Mrs. Weiss, why was this footage recorded?

4 A. Part of our stay in Kljuc at that time, it was a week, we were

5 followed by a Danish TV documentary crew who wanted to show how the work

6 with such a book took place, and this is the reason why we today have

7 some footage that shows the text of the documents -- of the book.

8 Q. The man in the video sat next to you with -- with the beard, who

9 was that?

10 A. Mr. Karsten Fledelius from the Copenhagen university. He was

11 acting as an interpreter for me, and he's also a co-author of the book.

12 Q. And just in a few words, the other two men in the room, who were

13 they?

14 A. The two other persons, the man at the end of the table is a local

15 police, chief of police, Dafic [as interpreted], and the uniformed police

16 officer to the right in the picture is Safaracic Smail [as interpreted]

17 is his first name. And why I remember the names so well, these two

18 police officers were extremely helpful in relation to our work of

19 finding -- finding Samardzija.

20 Q. Who was Samardzija? Marko Samardzija is the name referred to on

21 the footage.

22 A. Marko Samardzija was a schoolteacher in Sanica, a neighbouring

23 city of Biljani. He was a very well-known person in the area. He is a

24 Serb, and he was part of the set-up that had existed, as turned out

25 later.

Page 5290

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, the Chamber has some concern about the

2 way in which this testimony goes and the questions. We understood from

3 the 65 ter summary that the witness could, and as she did, testify about

4 the exhumation, but to ask the witness to give second, third, fourth-hand

5 evidence on matters which she obtained, and I have no problem with her

6 work and the book, but of course was obtained in a setting for which we

7 do not know to what extent all sides were heard, et cetera. And to

8 present that as evidence where we have quite a bit of direct evidence,

9 that is of some concern to the Chamber, and the Chamber wonders what this

10 adds. For example, that the policeman was very helpful in helping the

11 witness in obtaining her information. I mean, if he would not have been

12 helpful or if he would have been someone else, I mean that's all the

13 probative value of that how important the work may have been to inform

14 the public, but the probative value before this Court is limited if there

15 is any at all.

16 Would you please focus on matters of which the witness has

17 first-hand knowledge as the exhumation and the way in which bodies were

18 identified and that objects belonging to persons were identified rather

19 than to ask the witness to tell us about what she learned from others

20 about persons at a time where she was not present in the area.

21 Mrs. Weiss, I hope that you do understand that this does not in

22 any way mis-appreciate the importance of your work, but of course your

23 work in writing books is different from what we do in court, that that is

24 in an adversarial setting hearing the testimony of witnesses primarily

25 about what they observed, saw themselves.

Page 5291

1 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I simply answered the questions I

3 am asked, and I was asked about this and that was why I answered the

4 question. But I'm willing to elaborate on everything that has to do with

5 the exhumation and identification procedure.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I hope you did not misunderstand me. It was in no

7 way criticism that you answered the questions. It was, rather,

8 Mr. Jeremy reminding on what he is expecting to do in this courtroom to

9 assist the Chamber. I appreciate not only your work but also that you

10 answered the questions to the best of your abilities.

11 Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.

12 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, as noticed in our 65 ter summary,

13 this -- this witness interviewed Marko Samardzija. And that interview

14 followed shortly after the footage we just saw. In that interview

15 certain documents are -- were referred to by Marko Samardzija. Those

16 documents we'll now look at, and they were provided to this witness by

17 the police.

18 JUDGE ORIE: What we then have is not a hunt for Mr. Samardzija,

19 but you will put documents to the witness, and you'll ask questions about

20 what the witness learned herself from Mr. Samardzija during that

21 interview. That falls within the scope of what we expect you to do.

22 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Q. Ms. Weiss, in the -- Mrs. Weiss, in the video footage we saw, we

24 saw the police make reference to certain documents they say were authored

25 by Marko Samardzija. We'll take a look at some of those documents now.

Page 5292

1 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd ask Ms. Stewart to bring

2 65 ter 28087 to our screens. Your Honours, Ms. Stewart just reminded me

3 I've not tendered the video-clip we just watched, 28085C. I'd like to

4 tender that now.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the third video-clip played today.

6 Mr. Registrar -- or Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: We would object to this video since there is no

8 relevance in this case.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Lack of relevance. It will marked for

10 identification under what number, Mr. Registrar?

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P517, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The video is marked for identification.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy. You'll have an opportunity later to

14 explain the relevance.

15 MR. JEREMY:

16 Q. Ms. Weiss, do you recognise the document on the screen before

17 you?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. And when have you seen this document before?

20 A. I was -- it was shown to me at the police station in Kljuc.

21 Q. And are you aware of who authored this document?

22 A. Yes. If you go down on the screen and move the text, you can see

23 that it was written by Marko Samardzija.

24 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd also ask -- I'd like to move to

25 another document.

Page 5293

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we see that, please? Could we move that

2 document such that ...

3 Yes. Now we have the signature there. Please proceed.

4 MR. JEREMY: I'd like to go to another document, 28088. If we

5 could call that up on e-court, please.

6 Q. And, Ms. Weiss, do you recognise this document on the screen

7 before you?

8 A. Yes, I do recognise it, and I saw it on the same occasion.

9 Q. And very briefly, do you know what these documents were about?

10 A. Yes. I do not understand the original language, but they have

11 been translated for me, and they, very briefly, are about the necessity

12 if you're a Serb in that local area of preparing for a showdown with the

13 Muslim part of the population.

14 Q. Do you know who these documents were circulated to?

15 A. Well, they were first and foremost sent to Marko Samardzija's

16 soldiers. He was a captain of the first degree, and it was a kind of a

17 message to his troops, but I've also been told that they were also

18 distributed to a slightly broader group locally.

19 Q. And how do you know that?

20 A. Marko Samardzija himself told me.

21 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd like to tender those two documents

22 as the next Prosecution public exhibits.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The first one, Mr. Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 28087 becomes Exhibit P518, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted -- no, not yet. We'll first hear

Page 5294

1 from Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: The second document that the witness elaborated --

3 JUDGE ORIE: We are at this moment dealing with the first one.

4 Could we limit ourselves to the first one.

5 MR. LUKIC: First one, I think it's not sufficient to just

6 recognise the signature. If the document, the contents of the document

7 is not discussed, we don't think it's sufficient enough to introduce --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's first --

9 MR. LUKIC: -- to this witness. Maybe we can -- it can be

10 re-introduced through bar table, but not through this witness.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would not object against bar tabling it?

12 MR. LUKIC: If -- when it comes through the bar table then we

13 would --

14 JUDGE ORIE: You would then deal with that.

15 MR. LUKIC: -- deal with that, but through this witness it's not

16 sufficient enough.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let us first ask the witness. You were asked about

18 whether you had seen this document before. You gave an answer when you

19 saw it. You were then asked about who the author was. Now, apart

20 from -- you said you saw the -- it was Mr. Samardzija. We could see that

21 his signature is on the document. Was it ever confirmed that he authored

22 and signed this document in any other way than by looking at this

23 document?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, confirmed by whom?

25 JUDGE ORIE: By whomever. By himself, by someone else, by

Page 5295

1 experts?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the police in Kljuc sent the

3 documents as part of material they had collated and which they had passed

4 on through the court in Bihac to the war Tribunal, and that meant that

5 they were in no doubt whatsoever about the authenticity of this document.

6 The reason why there was no doubt about it -- another reason was that

7 they were found shortly after the war at -- on Marko Samardzija's desk in

8 the school in Cerniska [as interpreted]. He simply had not taken them

9 with him when he fled the premises.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the police told you?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The document will be MFI'd. I think the Registrar

13 had given a number already.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It's Exhibit P518.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Marked for identification.

16 The second document of which, Mr. Jeremy, I think you have not

17 shown us the second page, but it's on the second page that the name of

18 Mr. Samardzija appears and is where we find a signature.

19 Mr. Lukic, you said you had objections.

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. The same objections.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The same objections.

22 Mr. Registrar, could you assign a number so that it could be

23 MFI'd.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 28088 becomes Exhibit P519.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mrs. Weiss, what you were told about the

Page 5296

1 origin of this second document, is that the same as what you were told in

2 relation to the first document?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: About the distribution of this document, I think you

5 said that you knew about the distribution because Mr. Samardzija had told

6 you about it.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Whether the word

8 "distribution" is the right word, I shouldn't be a judge of that, but it

9 was primarily made for his soldiers. But in addition to this, among the

10 Serbian part of the population, they had gotten knowledge about it and as

11 much he confirmed this.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So you, in his presence, looked at these documents

13 and he explained for whom they were meant to be sent?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We didn't look at the

15 documents when we visited Marko Samardzija, but we went on asking whether

16 he had written some documents to -- before the massacre. He first was

17 reluctant, said he hadn't written anything that could excite the

18 population, but the -- during the two and a half hours conversation, he

19 nevertheless remembered that he might have written something that had

20 been left in his office at the school and that he had not taken with him

21 when he fled.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

23 Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.

24 MR. JEREMY:

25 Q. Ms. Weiss, you've referred to on a number of occasions your

Page 5297

1 interview with Marko Samardzija, and I'd now like to show some footage of

2 that.

3 MR. JEREMY: I'll ask Ms. Stewart to play in Sanction

4 65 ter 28085D, and there are some words in this clip, so it will be need

5 to play twice, but I'll cut down the original amount of footage I was

6 intending to show. I'll just show a minute or so, but I'll ask

7 Ms. Stewart when to stop it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll play it first to check on the words spoken,

9 and then the second time we'll receive interpretation.

10 [Video-clip played]

11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll now play it for a second and we'll receive

12 interpretation. It stopped at 48:50, and we now start again at 47:25.

13 [Video-clip played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Marko Samardzija: Well, people

15 say different things.

16 "Birte Weiss: Well, it's exactly because people say so many

17 different things that we have come. We want to hear from you what

18 happened the way you saw the situation.

19 "Marko Samardzija: Let me tell you, there was an order that

20 some of the most extreme national fascists of Muslim nationality should

21 be sent to Manjaca. I said at the time that I thought there were about

22 14 in our area. In my opinion, those were the 14 extremists. The rest

23 should not be touched.

24 "Karsten Fledelius: Fourteen extremists. Don't touch the rest

25 of the people he said at the time. Then who gave your -- did he give the

Page 5298

1 order himself?

2 "Marko Samardzija: Before the action, before the action the

3 Muslims were to be taken to the school on the evening of July 9.

4 "Karsten Fledelius: ... of the seventh month, July."

5 MR. JEREMY:

6 Q. Mrs. Weiss, of the footage that we just watched of your interview

7 with Marko Samardzija, there was a reference to a meeting on the

8 9th of July and a reference to orders being given on the same date. Do

9 you recall Marko Samardzija talking about these things?

10 A. Yes. I remember this quite clearly.

11 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I ask that the Court Officer bring

12 65 ter 03063 to our screens. This is an order given by a

13 Lieutenant-Colonel Drago Samardzija, dated 9 July 1992.

14 Q. Ms. Weiss -- Mrs. Weiss, do you recognise the order on the screen

15 before you?

16 A. Yes, I do. This was shown to me at the police station in Kljuc.

17 Q. Do you know who Lieutenant-Colonel Drago Samardzija was?

18 A. Well, I was told, but I don't know much about military ranks and

19 their description. Therefore, I don't want to go into details about who

20 had a right to give orders to their colleagues.

21 Q. And who were you told this person was?

22 A. I was told this by the two chiefs of police at the police station

23 in Kljuc, and Marko Samardzija also mentioned the name Drago Samardzija

24 during the conversation I had with him.

25 Q. What did Marko Samardzija say about the name Drago Samardzija?

Page 5299

1 A. Well, I don't remember the exact words spoken, but this came up

2 in connection -- what we saw on the screen, that he mentioned the

3 9th of July, and he said some orders had been given, and it was in

4 connection with a meeting that took place [indiscernible] prior to the

5 massacre on the following day. The meeting took place in Sanica and

6 there was a fair number of leading officers of different ranks who were

7 present, and it was in this connection that he also mentioned

8 Drago Samardzija. Marko Samardzija was also present at the meeting

9 himself.

10 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I tender this exhibit, 65 ter 03063,

11 as the next public Prosecution exhibit.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we would object, Your Honour, since this witness

14 cannot confirm neither who wrote it nor the contents.

15 JUDGE ORIE: But the origin, could you express yourself on that?

16 She said she saw it shown to her at the police station.

17 MR. LUKIC: Yes. That's -- we think that the police officers

18 cannot confirm the origin.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The document will be marked for

20 identification.

21 Mr. Registrar, under what number?

22 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 03063 becomes Exhibit P520, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.

24 Please proceed. Mr. Jeremy, at the same time I'm looking at the

25 clock, and I'm wondering whether -- where we are as far as time is

Page 5300

1 concerned.

2 MR. JEREMY: I probably have about 15 more minutes, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That goes then beyond your estimate.

4 You asked for one hour and a half finally, I think, Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but then we received some more

6 documents, and I think that if we go beyond this point in direct, we'll

7 have to keep this witness for Monday.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just have a look now. If we take a break now,

9 we would then be at quarter past 12.00 until quarter past 1.00. We would

10 have a little bit over one hour and a half.

11 Mr. Jeremy, is there any chance that you would be able to finish

12 more in line with the estimate you gave?

13 MR. JEREMY: I'll do my very best, Your Honours, and I'd also

14 like to --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if Mr. Jeremy would need another seven to

16 eight minutes, would that do? We would then have for you I think one

17 hour and 40 minutes approximately.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will do our best, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break after the witness has been

20 escorted out of the courtroom.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ORIE: And we will resume at 12 .18 sharp.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

Page 5301

1 Mr. Jeremy, the Chamber has carefully monitored the

2 examination-in-chief and grants you another seven minutes.

3 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed. I'll be very strict on

6 time.

7 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd like to tender the video that we

8 watched at the end of the last session, 65 ter 28085D.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.

10 Mr. Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: It becomes Exhibit P521, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: P521 is admitted.

13 MR. JEREMY:

14 Q. Mrs. Weiss, in the video footage we watched just before the

15 break, we saw Marko Samardzija refer to 14 extremists in connection with

16 the events on the 10th of July, 1992. What specifically did he say about

17 those extremists?

18 A. I tried to have a precise definition of what he meant by

19 "extremists." We were told layers in his explanation. One was more

20 general. It was people who -- who were a danger to the Serb part of the

21 population. That was point number one. And point number two, it was

22 young men from families, young men from families who didn't have clean

23 hands in 1941 when there was a massacre in precisely the same local area

24 but with the Serbs as victims.

25 Q. And were these extremists identified in any particular way in the

Page 5302

1 event -- preceding the events of the 10th of July?

2 A. He -- in the interview he talked about -- that he knew precisely

3 who they were, because as a schoolteacher in the area, as a prominent

4 person, he had a very detailed personal knowledge of the persons in the

5 area. So in his head, he had an idea of who they were or who he were

6 referring to.

7 Q. And did others have an idea of who these people were on the eve

8 of the 9th of July, 1992?

9 A. I wasn't present, so I have no possibility of answering this

10 question precisely, but it was said by Marko Samardzija that there were

11 lists of citizens who -- who had to be brought or taken to the school in

12 Biljani where they were to be registered, and there were considering more

13 on that list than the 14 that he considered as extremists. I cannot give

14 you a more precise answer, because as I said, I wasn't present at the

15 time.

16 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd like to call up Exhibit

17 65 ter 2797B and this is an extract of Mrs. Weiss's book,

18 "Witness To Madness." In particular I'd like to go to e-court page 3,

19 and I'd like to -- excuse me. Yeah, e-court page 3 in the English,

20 halfway down the third paragraph, and in the B/C/S, e-court page 4,

21 halfway down the third paragraph.

22 JUDGE ORIE: How many pages is the extract, Mr. Jeremy?

23 MR. JEREMY: It's six pages, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Six pages.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, for clarification of the record,

Page 5303

1 it's 27976B. Thank you.

2 MR. JEREMY: Page 3 in e-court in the English, halfway down the

3 third paragraph, and page 4 in the B/C/S. Sorry, in English it's page 3,

4 halfway down the third paragraph. Page 3 in the English.

5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: The Registrar tells us that there's only one page in

7 e-court, which surprises me, because when I look at my e-court version, I

8 have six pages.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we have six pages B/C/S version,

10 and one page English version.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I have six pages in English, Mr. Registrar. You'll

12 find the page at a later stage. Put the question to the witness to the

13 extent possible, Mr. Jeremy, because you have not much time left.

14 MR. JEREMY:

15 Q. Mrs. Weiss, in your -- in your book, "Witness To Madness," you

16 quote Marko Samardzija as saying to you the following in respect to the

17 events on the 10th of July, 1992:

18 "It didn't help either that I called the Commander-in-Chief and

19 told him what was about to happen in Biljani. 'Shove off, go home,' he

20 just said. That was at 9.00, and there were as yet no dead on the road,

21 all those terrible things I first heard about later."

22 Mrs. Weiss, did Marko Samardzija told you -- tell you who he

23 called? Did -- specifically the name of who he called?

24 A. He mentioned that he contacted the people he could get in touch

25 with. He created the impression that he -- both on the spot, that he

Page 5304

1 objected on the spot, and he mentioned the name Jovo Kevac. And in

2 addition, by telephone he contacted several people whom he wanted to tell

3 what was going on in Biljani in those hours.

4 Q. And did he tell you who those several people were or what office

5 they occupied?

6 A. He said that they were the commanding people.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, I'm sorry, but I told you before we

8 would be very strict in time. We're not going for three, four, or five

9 minutes, ask the witness to stay here over the weekend. Again we have

10 monitored carefully your cross-examination. I made already a few

11 comments. Would you --

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in your examination in chief, of course. I

14 misspoke. Could you wind up in the next minute.

15 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honours. Could I call up in e-court

16 65 ter 19966A. This is a record of an individual leaving Kljuc

17 specifying the particular property to be left behind, dated the

18 10th of August, 1992.

19 Q. Ms. Weiss, do you recognise or have you seen similar documents to

20 the document on the screen before you?

21 A. Yes. Yes, I do recognise this document, and I have seen several

22 similar documents. It was customary that in order to get on a convoy out

23 of Kljuc, for people who had to flee the town, they would have to sign

24 such a declaration.

25 Q. And --

Page 5305

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- again, you invite or let the witness tell us

2 what happened at the time. The witness can tell us about the document.

3 She has no personal knowledge. She may have researched it but has no

4 personal knowledge of that. I pointed to that several times.

5 Where, Mrs. Weiss, did you see this and similar documents?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document I saw at the police

7 station in Kljuc, and subsequently in the months and years after that

8 I've seen similar documents in local authorities. That would be the town

9 hall of Kljuc.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you want to tender it, the Chamber

11 will consider it to be MFI'd depending on Mr. Lukic's position.

12 MR. LUKIC: We do object to -- for this document to be introduced

13 through this witness.

14 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to tender it, Mr. Registrar, what would

15 the number be?

16 THE REGISTRAR: It would be P522, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: P522 is marked for identification. Mr. Jeremy, this

18 [overlapping speakers] time is over.

19 MR. JEREMY: [Overlapping speakers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?

21 MR. JEREMY: I have one final question.

22 JUDGE ORIE: No. We said we would be very strict. If there's

23 any time left at the end that one question can be put if Mr. Lukic

24 doesn't use all of his time.

25 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 5306

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Weiss, this is not the usual way of ending an

2 examination-in-chief, but you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic.

3 Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Weiss.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the interpreter didn't get this.

9 MR. LUKIC:

10 Q. Good day, Mrs. Weiss. [Interpretation] Well, today we will have

11 a strange combination of languages, but I'm happy that we will be able to

12 include Danish also today in the courtroom.

13 I can see that you have had quite an impressive career, of

14 course, and it's an honour to have such a prominent person as yourself

15 before us here today. However, your expertise mostly concerns Denmark

16 and Danish society. So in my question, what I would like to put to you

17 is this: Is it correct that you are not an expert on relations in

18 Yugoslavia and Bosnia, particularly regarding the historical and the

19 political aspect?

20 A. Well, I'm -- you can become an expert many different ways. My

21 path towards gaining knowledge was that as previously mentioned, I was

22 minister for the interior in the period, or most of the period during

23 which war was waged in Bosnia. In that connection, I had to gain

24 in depth insight into developments in Bosnia, and I had to do so because

25 the events here -- or there, rather, why crucial in determining the

Page 5307

1 number of refugees coming to Denmark shortly after the individual events.

2 And because of that, I had on a daily basis to read reports from the

3 Danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and also UN documents, and I also

4 followed the international media. So it's correct that I don't have an

5 education in this field, neither as regards history and not in terms of

6 language specifically. I only speak the language in -- very mediocrally.

7 But in a professional context I also, for reasons of necessity, collected

8 knowledge about matters that were crucial in relation to our reception of

9 refugees in Denmark, and that included specific events.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may have noticed that the Chamber has

11 tried to focus the evidence of this witness very much to fact she knew

12 and has intervened several times on that. So therefore you may have

13 understood this. Apart from the content of the testimony of the witness

14 which was not very expert-like to say so, why now explore what is not her

15 expertise where we tried to do our utmost best to keep the Prosecution

16 within the limits of a witness of fact? Please proceed.

17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Weiss, today you testified about the role

19 of Marko Samardzija in these events. Is it correct that you received

20 information that he had received this assignment from Vinko Kondic?

21 A. Vinko Kondic was, as far as I know, the leader of the military

22 police in Kljuc. I do not recollect exactly what he said about the

23 various both military units and police units competencies in relation to

24 the military units. I said in my answer to the Prosecutor that I don't

25 have any in depth specific knowledge about military ranks and the

Page 5308

1 competence associated with the individual officers' ranks and how they

2 are inter-related, so I can't answer your question in any way that is

3 different from the answer I gave to the Prosecutor.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Weiss, perhaps matters are simpler than they

5 look at first. The simple question was whether you received information

6 that the assignment of Marko Samardzija was given to him by Vinko Kondic.

7 Did you hear about that, apart from who he was?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That was -- that was the simple question. Mr. Lukic

10 will now put his next question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Will you allow me to give a reason

12 for my inability to confirm this?

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you know, you confirm it. If you do not know, it

14 doesn't need a reason. It's good as it is.

15 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. [Interpretation] I want to ask you something about how people

18 acted in that area at the time. We will be going through your book to

19 see if you had any information about this crime, this incident, having

20 occurred for reasons of revenge. So can we please look at 65 ter 27976

21 in e-court, please. Page 18, please. In the English, fourth paragraph

22 from the bottom.

23 Obviously I don't have the same pages in e-court as those shown

24 here. Just one moment, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Page 18 in e-court, Mr. Lukic, is page 17 in the

Page 5309

1 English hard copy.

2 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the fourth from the bottom.

3 Q. [Interpretation] You say in the book, speaking about

4 Marko Samardzija, we can see that at the top of our screens. In the

5 first paragraph, you said:

6 "...he mentioned the name of the neighbour who killed his father

7 58 years ago ... he started to shake when he spoke about this, how all

8 the men and boys over the age of 12 at that time were taken prisoner and

9 executed."

10 Now we will need to look at page 27. The first paragraph of the

11 same document.

12 This might be a mistake then. Can we look at page 25, please. I

13 apologise. Page 25 of the English version, please.

14 You say:

15 "For him personally, it was a question of revenge.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note: We cannot see the

17 reference. We don't know where Mr. Lukic is reading from.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you are reading. Interpreters have

19 difficulties in finding it. At this moment we have e-court page 26 on

20 our screen for the English, and for the B/C/S we have -- could you verify

21 that.

22 MR. LUKIC: We need the next page in English, page 26 on the

23 bottom, but before it was discrepancy for one page. Can we move one page

24 up. First paragraph, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the page?

Page 5310

1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We are now looking at page 27 in e-court, page 26 in

3 the English hard copy.

4 MR. LUKIC: I asked for 27th page.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, let's move on.

6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. [Interpretation] I will read it again,

7 Your Honour.

8 Q. You can see line 2, the sentence begins:

9 [In English] "For him personally, it was a matter of vengeance.

10 His father had been killed in 1941 by a group of Croats and Bosniaks, and

11 at his mother's death a few years ago, he complained at the funeral that

12 she had not been able to witness 'the vengeance of his despicable

13 murder.'"

14 [Interpretation] My question to you is this: Did you find out

15 from others that you spoke with that Marko Samardzija and armed local

16 Serbs acted out of vengeance?

17 A. I believe that one should be very careful when generalising. I

18 certainly want to stick to what Marko Samardzija actually said, and --

19 and he used this as a supplementary reason, and part of this reason was

20 that he had experienced that his father, when he himself was five years

21 old, that his father was a victim of the massacre that is mentioned in

22 1941, and he supports this further by referring to the fact that

23 extremists are, among others, those who did not have clean hands in 1941.

24 So there is a logical connection in his statement, but I do not want to

25 generalise in relation to other persons who were involved in that

Page 5311

1 massacre.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question has been misunderstood, if it's

3 well translated. If you look at the English, Mr. -- you asked whether

4 the witness found out from others, that means through other sources, she

5 consulted other sources show spoke with, whether, as I understand your

6 question, whether they confirmed that Marko Samardzija acted out of

7 vengeance.

8 Could you tell us, because part of your answer was, Mrs. Weiss,

9 that what he told you. Could you tell us whether this was confirmed by

10 other sources?

11 You are looking at Mr. Lukic. It's difficult for you to know who

12 puts the question, but I did. Could you confirm that there were other

13 sources?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were two parts in the

15 question of the Defence. One of the aspects was a concrete aspect

16 concerning Marko Samardzija. The other aspect of the question was

17 whether one would consider that there were other persons in the area that

18 also acted on the basis of vengeance, motive. My answer is that I can

19 only relate to what Marko Samardzija himself said and what others said in

20 this connection, and this was that there was a vengeance motive --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- so I will not allow myself to

23 assess what other people meant.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Weiss, first of all, if I ask you to stop, would

25 you please do so.

Page 5312

1 Second, you continue to give your answers on the basis of a wrong

2 understanding or a wrong interpretation of the question. The question

3 was not whether others acted out of vengeance. The question was whether

4 you only heard from Mr. Samardzija that he acted in relation to what had

5 happened to him personally in the Second World War, or that others told

6 you the same about Mr. Samardzija.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, okay. Now I think it's clear

8 to me what I'm being asked.

9 Well, I knew this from Marko Samardzija, and a number of those

10 other very many people that we were in contact with at the time, they had

11 the same view, meaning they said that in the case of Marko Samardzija,

12 there was a vengeance motive.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Did you hear from others, Muslims, that you

16 spoke with that other Serbs also acted out of vengeance?

17 A. That's the question that I -- well, that's what I said just a

18 minute ago, that it's difficult for me to answer this question.

19 Q. Sorry. I'm asking you anybody of the people, such as Nasiha and

20 other people that you spoke with, did they tell you anything in this

21 regard? Did they or not? If yes, can you please tell us who it was that

22 told you something like that and when?

23 A. Well, you need to specify what you mean about in this context, in

24 this relation.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- I'll rephrase the question now.

Page 5313

1 Did you hear from any other person you spoke with that others,

2 other Serbs than Marko Samardzija, had acted out of vengeance? We're not

3 asking your opinion about whether they did. We're only asking you

4 whether other Muslims told you that apart from Marko Samardzija, other

5 Serbs also acted out of vengeance, whether this was told.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our sources were not only Muslims.

7 There were also a number of Serbs who have contributed and been -- and

8 whom we have interviewed in connection with the book.

9 We got the impression that it was very characteristic of

10 Marko Samardzija, but that this could also be more widespread, this

11 vengeance motive. But I cannot give you any names or references to what

12 concrete persons who acted on the basis of a vengeance motive apart from

13 what I've said about Marko Samardzija.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And do you have any concrete names of those you

15 interviewed who gave you this impression?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We spoke to, I believe, something

17 like a hundred different persons in connection with our work on this

18 book. It's 13 years ago. I could mention a few names, but I -- I don't

19 think it's correct to be specific about what other persons in a third

20 party view might have of vengeance motive, but as one of our interviewees

21 in connection with the book, I could mention

22 Skrago Savancic [as interpreted]. He was a member of the Municipal

23 Council in Kljuc. He didn't go into any interpretation of how this

24 vengeance motive should be understood.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I'll leave it further in your hands, Mr. Lukic.

Page 5314

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Did you hear from people whom you interviewed

3 that the people who committed the abuse, the mistreatment, were

4 frequently drunk?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you also hear that Serbian units had problems with

7 discipline among the speedily assembled and frequently insufficiently

8 trained soldiers?

9 A. Well, it appears from one of the declarations that we have seen

10 from Marko Samardzija that he had to express himself also in writing. He

11 had to express himself to his soldiers in such a way as to discipline

12 them. So the answer to the question must be that these soldiers had been

13 gathered in a short time and that there might be disciplinary problems,

14 but apparently they were, nevertheless, able to undertake the work that

15 they were told to undertake.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] can we now look at page 36, please,

17 paragraph 4.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thirty-six in e-court, Mr. Lukic?

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Page 35 in English.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Weiss, paragraph 4, line 2, which states:

21 [In English] "There are many examples of how the guards in the

22 camp took the most gruesome vengeance on old wrongs, maybe all the way

23 back to a fight during their school days or some disagreement on basis --

24 on a business matter. This ethnic struggle which suddenly arose was used

25 as a cloak for --"

Page 5315

1 We lost the page. We need page 36 in e-court.

2 " ... which suddenly arose which was used as a cloak for

3 brutality, pettiness and greed."

4 [Interpretation] Is it therefore correct that you had heard from

5 people whom you questioned there were a lot of cases of vengeance

6 disguised by combat, and also there was greed under the guise of combat?

7 A. Page 36 does not refer to Biljani massacre. This refers to an

8 interview with a refugee in Denmark who's called Mihanovic,

9 Sulejman Mihanovic [phoen], and he gives a long interview about this. He

10 expressed that this was how he perceived it in his area. He's from

11 Kocavac [as interpreted] close to Prijedor. This is how he understood

12 it.

13 Q. I'm sorry, it had nothing to do with Biljani. We'll move on.

14 Now I'm going to ask you something about the Samardzija case before the

15 court of Sarajevo. I have found in documents that you followed the trial

16 of Marko Samardzija, which was conducted in Sarajevo court; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes. I heard some of the Pale case. I lived for one year in

19 Sarajevo, and this coincided with this case.

20 Q. By following the trial [Danish on English channel] outcome both

21 in judgement and appeal stages, you know that Marko Samardzija was not

22 convicted of the murders; is that correct?

23 A. That's correct. It was only part of the indictment that was

24 mentioned.

25 Q. In the Bosnia-Herzegovina court in Sarajevo, he was convicted of

Page 5316

1 unlawful imprisonment of civilians; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, this is correct.

3 Q. During the trial, did you find out that the civilians who had

4 been picked up in Biljani were handed over to the police?

5 A. Well, I was under the impression that they were given or handed

6 over to the representatives of the army and the police. Both parties

7 were present at the school in Biljani where the men were transferred, but

8 it's true that police was an important part, the police was an important

9 part of the entire team.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, now we go to the trial.

11 MR. LUKIC: I have only one more question.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Only one more question. Yes.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mrs. Weiss, the buses that were used to transport people from

15 Biljani to Kljuc or the buses that set off towards Kljuc, is it correct

16 that the only escort provided was that of the police?

17 A. I cannot answer that question.

18 MR. LUKIC: Bear with me, Your Honour. I was just checking when

19 our break is.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The break will be in approximately 15 minutes from

21 now.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. [Interpretation] I am going to ask you now about the Serbs of

24 Kljuc after the war. You met Zdravko Stevandic. Who was that man?

25 A. He was a local classman. He was a member of the municipality of

Page 5317

1 Kljuc, and also in the period when he lived in Banja Luka, because he

2 didn't think there was any foundation for -- for returning, which he did

3 later on.

4 Q. You worked on the reconciliation project; is that correct?

5 A. It wasn't I personally -- worked on that project in Kljuc, but I

6 took part in forming some reconciliation projects, and I saw to it that

7 the first financing of these projects was made.

8 Q. After 1996, you visited Kljuc between 12 and 16 times according

9 to what you told us. What did you learn? How many Serbs returned to

10 Kljuc?

11 A. The first period after the war, not very many returned, but among

12 other things, because of hard work from Marko Stevandic [as interpreted],

13 there were families in the villages who started returning, but they had a

14 difficult time adjusting, and some of them moved away again. And today

15 the population in Kljuc is quite -- is dominated by Bosniaks. It means

16 only a small percentage of Serbs and an even smaller percentage of

17 Croats.

18 I would like to add that might make it even more understandable.

19 At the Dayton agreement, Kljuc municipality was split into two. This

20 means that Kljuc itself and the villages we have talked about so far,

21 they were on the Bosniak part, and right on the other side of the Dayton

22 line a new municipality Riplek [as interpreted] was set up. This is then

23 only the Serb population living here. So when I'm talking about Kljuc

24 municipality after the war, then it's the part that became the Bosniak

25 part. The other part is on the other side of the sector border.

Page 5318

1 Q. On the other side of the separation lines only a few villages

2 from the Kljuc municipality remained; is that correct?

3 A. It's not a very -- it's not as big as the part located on the

4 Bosniak side; that's correct.

5 Q. Do you know today who committed the murders in Biljani?

6 A. Do I know that personally? It's not my job to determine that.

7 It's the job of the Court.

8 Q. Thank you. Today you reviewed a number of military documents.

9 We are not going to go into each and every one of them. Is it true that

10 you're unable to comment on the contents of the document and the military

11 justification of the orders contained in those documents?

12 A. [In English] Have you -- have you finished your question?

13 Q. [In English] I think I did.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I -- what Mr. Lukic asked you was whether

15 you're unable to comment on the contents or on the possible military

16 justification for the orders described therein. Are you able or are you

17 unable?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said previously, I have no in

19 depth knowledge of the various ranks in the military hierarchy, but of

20 course I can comment on the documents if the Court wants me to do so. I

21 would be willing to comment on the contents of the order. There's no

22 problem in that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That -- you are encouraged to do that only if you

24 have any personal knowledge about the order or the content of the order.

25 To comment in journalistic terms is not what we expect you to do.

Page 5319

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But I have read the order that

2 is referred to, and my reading of it is that this is the way in which the

3 individual units were instructed regarding the specific assignments they

4 were to perform on the 10th of July from 5.00 a.m. That way of reading

5 it, there's no doubt about that.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mrs. Weiss, looking at your film, I noticed on the Muslim tombs

8 or headstones that are shown in this film, that there is an inscription

9 which reads "Sahid." Is it correct that the word "Sahid" means a fallen

10 combatant?

11 A. My knowledge of the Bosniak language is not well enough for me to

12 go into any detailed definition.

13 Q. Thank you. In your research and in the interviews that you

14 conducted, did you find out anything about the fighting that was going on

15 between the Muslim and Serbian forces from the late May 1992?

16 A. As far as I remember, on the 28th of May, there was a Serbian

17 raid against a neighbouring town of Biljani, Vecici. The local people

18 tried using ordinary hunting weapons to resist, but they didn't stand a

19 chance against this overwhelming military power that eradicated the town,

20 and for that reason it ended up with something very similar to the

21 occurrence in Biljani, and that is that the men were taken to the school,

22 in this case in Vecici, and they were killed, all of them. However,

23 later on it turned out that a couple of witnesses had survived. And I

24 spoke to one of those witnesses, and I was given a very detailed

25 description of what happened, and this is also stated in my book.

Page 5320

1 Q. Do you know for how long Vecici resisted the Serb attacks? Do

2 you know that the fighting went on for six months?

3 A. No. I have no knowledge about that. I know that the massacre

4 that took place at the school in Vecici was over very quickly, and I

5 haven't heard of any major and comprehensive combat action for a long

6 time after that.

7 Q. We have heard evidence in this Tribunal, therefore, I'm not going

8 to burden you with this.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock. It is time for

10 a break. Could I invite you not to challenge what is not in evidence. I

11 mean, it's clear that this witness wasn't there at the time. Therefore,

12 there's better evidence.

13 MR. LUKIC: This question was obviously my mistake, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?

15 MR. LUKIC: This question was obviously my mistake.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And also not to -- what is not tendered from the

17 book of course doesn't need to be challenged unless you find anything in

18 the book which of course would support your own case; in that case, in

19 cross-examination you have some latitude to deal with those matters.

20 Could I ask you where we are in terms of time after the break.

21 MR. LUKIC: I will reorganise myself, and I don't think that I

22 have much left.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mrs. Weiss, we take a break of 20 minutes.

24 You'll be escorted out of the courtroom.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 5321

1 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 1.19 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

5 Meanwhile, Mr. Groome, the Chamber received an e-mail about an

6 inflexible witness this Chamber in all its flexibility doesn't know how

7 you become so inflexible, but if you want to call him in the first week

8 of February, then the Chamber will be able to hear his evidence.

9 MR. GROOME: I think our inquiry was what week we would be off so

10 we could schedule witnesses. Given the pattern we're working, whether

11 we're taking off the first week or the second week of February when --

12 JUDGE ORIE: We have not decided yet, but we are so flexible and

13 so accommodating that if that witness cannot come at any other time, the

14 Chamber will hear his evidence in that week.

15 MR. GROOME: I think the Chamber misunderstood the e-mail. It is

16 not about the witness being inflexible it's just that to schedule

17 witnesses, we just need to know when we are sitting. That's all it was

18 about.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I thought there was a very special reason here.

20 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: But let's not further deal with the matter at this

22 moment.

23 [The witness takes the stand]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you're ready to proceed, please do so.

25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. And I have gone

Page 5322

1 through my questions and I have only one area left, very small area.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

3 MR. LUKIC: We would need 65 ter 27976. That's the book. Page

4 in English version 4, paragraph 3. Actually, in B/C/S version, page 4,

5 paragraph 3. In English version, page 2, paragraph 8. We have to add

6 one page. So in English it's page 3. We made page 2 from the book. In

7 English version we need paragraph 8. Starting with "None," yes.

8 Q. Ms. Weiss, in your book you said:

9 "None of the parties to the Bosnian war were merely villains or

10 merely victims. There were prison camps, expulsions and the burning of

11 houses in every part of the country. However, it was mostly Bosniaks who

12 came to Denmark and it was they who suffered the greatest loss of human

13 life, property and prospects for the future. This book makes use of

14 their point of view and makes no pretence of being a value-free

15 historical account."

16 [Interpretation] Would you say today as well that your intention

17 was not to be impartial?

18 A. When I put it in this way in the book, it's also to draw

19 attention to the fact that the greater part of the sources used in the

20 book are Bosniaks. That's partly due to the fact that the greater part

21 of the refugees that came to Denmark were Bosniaks, although there also

22 were Serbs and Croatians, but the Bosniaks were the greater part. But

23 something that you cannot get from this formulation in the book is that

24 the book should be siding with one or would be partial to one side. I

25 would describe the book in this way: It was a collection of the best

Page 5323

1 knowledge that was available in 1999. It was the knowledge that was

2 available with the sources that we had access to from all three

3 population groups.

4 Obviously, later on a great many details and connections have

5 been revealed, also in other court cases also concerning the Kljuc area.

6 The court case against Stakic and Breznic [as interpreted] and several

7 others. So you have to read this to mean that here I am communicating

8 the knowledge available at the time when the book was written.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the witness now carefully explained why

10 your question was wrong. Your question was:

11 "Would you say today as well that your intention was not to be

12 impartial?"

13 That could not reasonably read from the portion you read to the

14 witness, but the witness has better explained than I could do it that

15 your question was misinterpreting the book. Please proceed.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. At the time when you were writing the book, is it correct that

18 you used the Bosniaks' point of view and that you did not mean for your

19 book to be an impartial historical record, as we can find that written in

20 your book?

21 A. It's only true to the extent that the greater part of the sources

22 used in the book are Bosniaks, but it appears very clearly that another

23 significant person in the book is Marko Samardzija, who is a Serb and who

24 was much involved in what happened in Biljani. So to say this -- called

25 this partial in a negative sense, that I believe is not great.

Page 5324

1 Q. How would you call it, impartial -- partial in a positive sense?

2 Partial in a positive sense?

3 A. I don't know what this means, actually.

4 Q. [In English] The translation we got:

5 "So to say this," something "called this partial in a negative

6 way -- sense."

7 Something's missing from the transcript.

8 [Interpretation] And did you not also say that you would not

9 allow yourself to be Teflon coated, preventing you from being objective?

10 A. It's correct that in the documentary film I use this expression

11 involving Teflon, but that's in a different connection. That's in

12 connection with the general impression that a minister naturally gets

13 when he suddenly is responsible for 20.000 refugees from an area where

14 the worst imaginable things happen. And I also use this expression as a

15 sort of explanation for the fact that in addition to my professional

16 work, I have also later on been involved in conditions in Bosnia. I've

17 been involved in the further cross-ethnical peace process which is

18 characterised by the fact that both Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs take part

19 in this in Kljuc. So this is general comment.

20 Q. My last question: Is it correct that you lobbied in Denmark in

21 favour of the Muslim side?

22 A. No, this is not correct.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mrs. Weiss, thank you very much.

24 These are all the questions I had for you, and I would like to thank you

25 for answering them.