Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5538

 1                           Thursday, 22 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there are no preliminaries, which

12     means that the witness can be escorted into the courtroom.  No protective

13     measures.  You're ready, Mr. Weber?

14             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  At this time, the Prosecution

15     seeks leave to call Nedzib Djozo.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'll use the time while waiting for the

17     witness for the following.  During Idriz Merdjanic's testimony on the 1st

18     of October of this year, D59 was MFI'd because the translation states

19     that the document concerned a handwritten note and the original document

20     does not reflect that.  On the 12th of October, the parties informed the

21     Chamber that they are discussing D59, and the Chamber would like to

22     remind both parties that it is waiting for the final version of this

23     document.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Djozo.  Before you give evidence,

Page 5539

 1     the Rules require --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The Rules require that you make a solemn

 4     declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.  May I invite

 5     you to make that solemn declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Djozo.  Please be seated.

 9                           WITNESS:  NEDZIB DJOZO

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djozo, you'll first by examined by Mr. Weber.

12     Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution and you'll find him to your

13     right.

14             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

15                           Examination by Mr. Weber:

16        Q.   Could you please introduce yourself to the Trial Chamber.

17        A.   My name is Nedzib Djozo.  I was born on the 4th of May, 1958, in

18     Datelji.  I live in Sarajevo on Sulejman Filipovic Street number 12.

19        Q.   Mr. Djozo, did you provide statements to the Office of the

20     Prosecutor in November 1995 and April 2005?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Have you testified before this Tribunal on three previous

23     occasions in the cases of Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic,

24     Prosecutor versus Perisic, and most recently, Prosecutor versus Karadzic

25     in December 2010?

Page 5540

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Prior to your Karadzic testimony, did you provide a third

 3     statement consolidating and clarifying evidence you presented in past

 4     statements and testimony?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could the Court Officer please display page 1 of

 7     65 ter 28557 for the witness.

 8        Q.   Do you recognise the document before you as the amalgamated

 9     statement you provided on 7 December 2010, prior to your testimony in the

10     Karadzic case?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Does your signature appear on the bottom of this page?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you have any corrections to the spelling of your place of

15     birth that is before you?

16        A.   Yes.  As my place of birth, it reads Dartalje, whereas the

17     correct spelling should be Datelji, D-a-t-e-l-j-i.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 14 of the

19     English version of this statement.

20        Q.   Mr. Djozo, did you sign this page after the statement was read

21     back to you in the Bosnian language?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you have and opportunity to review this statement in a

24     language you understand prior to your testimony here today?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5541

 1        Q.   If you were asked questions similar to the ones posed to you in

 2     the past, would you provide similar answers as reflected in this

 3     statement?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now that you've taken the solemn declaration in this case, do you

 6     affirm the truthfulness of this statement?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. WEBER:  At this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 28557

 9     into evidence as a public exhibit.  We also tender at this time two

10     associated exhibits, 65 ter 19725 and 19775 as public exhibits.  These

11     are discussed in paragraph 21 of the statement.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28557 becomes Exhibit P544.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P544 is admitted into evidence.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19725 becomes Exhibit P545, Your

16     Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P545 is admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  And document 19775 becomes Exhibit P546, Your

19     Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P546 is admitted.  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

21             MR. WEBER:  With the Chamber's leave, the Prosecution at this

22     time seeks permission to present a public summary of Mr. Djozo's

23     evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please read it out.

25             MR. WEBER:  During the war, Mr. Djozo served as a police officer

Page 5542

 1     for the Sarajevo Police Department in the Stari Grad or Old Town police

 2     station from July 1992 onward.  In his capacity as a police investigator,

 3     he investigated shelling and sniping cases.

 4             Mr. Djozo conducted a number of on-site investigations concerning

 5     the wounding and killing of civilians in Sedrenik, a residential area

 6     under the responsibility of his police station.  In these investigations,

 7     he found that there was fire coming from the Bosnian Serb-held territory,

 8     in particular the sniping location of Spicasta Stijena, which is a hill

 9     overlooking the Sedrenik neighbourhood.

10             In the months immediately before the shelling of the Markale

11     marketplace on 28 August 1995, Mr. Djozo investigated several incidents

12     of mortar impacts in the immediate vicinity.  On the day of 28 August

13     1995, he attended the site of the Markale incident.

14             During the course of his investigations, Mr. Djozo encountered

15     other explosive devices that were used against or fired on Sarajevo.  He

16     investigated a modified air bomb that fell in the canyon of the Moscanice

17     river without exploding.  He found that the projectile was an air bomb

18     with four rocket motors attached to it.  Mr. Djozo also saw gas

19     containers filled with explosives which were rolled down into the city

20     from Bosnian Serb-held territories on the slopes of Mount Trebevic

21     beneath Osmica.

22             May I proceed, Your Honours, with the questioning of the witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Mr. Djozo, can you approximate for us how many shells fell upon

Page 5543

 1     the Stari Grad area of Sarajevo between 1992 and 1995?

 2        A.   I cannot give you even an approximate number.  I can only say

 3     that there were thousands upon thousands of shells that fell on the

 4     Stari Grad area.

 5        Q.   Between 1992 and 1995, were there any weapons placements or any

 6     military locations located within the Stari Grad area?

 7        A.   The only location where there was army present, and that was the

 8     Yugoslav People's Army, was in the area of Bistrik where the command of

 9     the 7th Military District or army district was stationed.

10        Q.   What was the address of the Stari Grad police station?

11        A.   The street where the police station was located is called

12     Logavina Street, and it was at number 6.

13        Q.   Could you please describe the Stari Grad police station and the

14     buildings that immediately surround it.

15        A.   The Stari Grad police station was housed in a building with a

16     basement, ground floor, first floor, and attic.  There were residential

17     buildings the police station that were two- or three-storeys high.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could the Court Officer please display page 15 of

19     65 ter 10264.  It is a photograph.  There is no translation.

20        Q.   Do you recognise the area depicted in this photograph?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What do you recognise this area to be?

23        A.   In the foreground we can see private homes that form part of the

24     Sedrenik neighbourhood, and in the background one can see the feature

25     called Spicasta Stijena.

Page 5544

 1        Q.   Does this photograph accurately depict the Sedrenik area as it

 2     appeared during the war?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could the Court Officer please provide the witness

 5     with a pen to mark the photograph.

 6        Q.   In paragraph 16 of your statement, you state:

 7             "Spicasta Stijena is a hill dominant overlooking the Sedrenik

 8     neighbourhood.  Spicasta Stijena was under the control of the members of

 9     the Army of Republika Srpska.  Spicasta Stijena was a well-known

10     aggressor-held sniping place."

11             Is this sniping position visible in this photograph?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Could you please take the pen and mark the location of the

14     sniping position with the letter S.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Could you please draw a box around what you've described as the

17     Sedrenik neighbourhood.

18        A.   [Marks]

19             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the photograph at this time

20     as marked by the witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The photograph marked by the witness would receive,

22     Madam Registrar, what number?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P547, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P547 is admitted.

25             MR. WEBER:

Page 5545

 1        Q.   Do you know whether people were cutting trees down near the area

 2     of Spicasta Stijena for firewood?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Were there any particular months in which they would do this?

 5        A.   They would mostly cut trees just ahead of the winter, because

 6     they needed wood for heating.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 10105 for

 8     the witness.

 9        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this Official Note dated 12 March 1995?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could we please have page 2 of the B/C/S original.

12        Q.   Does your signature appear on this page?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you have the opportunity to review this Official Note during

15     proofing yesterday?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   According to this Official Note, a woman described to you how she

18     was shot while going to get firewood on 10 December 1994 in Sedrenik.

19     Based on your review of this Official Note, does it accurately reflect

20     your interview of this woman who was wounded?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. WEBER:  At this time, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 10105 as

23     a public exhibit.  We did check, and it is okay to tender publicly.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10105 becomes Exhibit P548, Your

Page 5546

 1     Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P548 is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 19775 for

 4     the witness.  I apologise.  I just read out the wrong number.  It's

 5     19776.

 6        Q.   Before you is a cover page of one of two notebooks which is

 7     entitled "Stari Grad SJB Sarajevo.  War Diary."  Do you recognise the

 8     name of the person on this cover page?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Who is this person?

11        A.   Chief of the Stari Grad public security station.

12        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review those notebooks during

13     proofing?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Were you aware of these notebooks while you were employed at the

16     Stari Grad SJB?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Could you please tell us what the entries in these notebooks

19     relate to?

20        A.   Most of the entries in this war diary related to the places that

21     were the source of shelling in the Bosnian Serb-controlled area, place

22     and date, time, those wounded or injured and killed, civilians, in the

23     area covered by the Stari Grad police station.

24        Q.   Does it include any information related to incidents where

25     individuals were shot at?

Page 5547

 1        A.   Of course.  The entries also include sniping incidents, incidents

 2     where there was gunfire from infantry weapons and the so-called death

 3     mowers.

 4        Q.   Could the --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Death sowers.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   I'd like to go through a couple entries with you.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the bottom of page

 9     23 of the English translation and the middle of page 71 of the B/C/S

10     copy.  For reference the entry the Prosecution will be referring to in

11     the English translation continues on to the next page.

12        Q.   Directing your attention to the entry for 27 April 1993, under

13     the location of Bascarsija, which indicates a N. Djozo was wounded by a

14     shell, do you know what this entry relates to?

15        A.   I do.  This was on Branilaca Sarajeva street.  At the time it was

16     called the JNA street, where Naim Djozo, a person by the name of Hasic,

17     and another unidentified person were killed.  Naim Djozo is my brother.

18        Q.   What was your bothering doing when he was wounded on this day?

19        A.   He was an electrician by trade, and he was on his way to work.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 72 of the

21     English translation and page 231 of the B/C/S copy.

22        Q.   Directing your attention to the entry for 27/28 May 1992 under

23     the location of Hrid-Jarcedoli.  This entry mentions a number of areas

24     including Pogledine, Kamenice, Mahmutovac, and Colina Kapa which were

25     targeted from all available artillery pieces.  Are these areas all

Page 5548

 1     located in Stari Grad?

 2        A.   Yes.  They are the neighbourhoods of the Stari Grad municipality.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 104 of the

 4     English translation and page 337 of the B/C/S original.

 5        Q.   Turning your attention to the entry for 2 July 1992 under Vratnik

 6     that describes about 400 people of Muslim nationality arriving in Vratnik

 7     from Pale.  Are you familiar with what is described in this entry?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What do you know about it?

10        A.   Members of the Army of Republika Srpska informed our superiors

11     that at Vratnik there was a large number of Muslims who had been expelled

12     from Pale.  Policemen were supposed to go to meet them there and bring

13     them into town.

14        Q.   Do you know any of the individuals who are amongst the people

15     that were expelled from Pale?

16        A.   Yes.  This group included my relatives who lived in Pale, my

17     aunt.

18        Q.   Were all the people that were expelled on this occasion

19     originally from the municipality of Pale?

20        A.   Before the war, the municipality of Pale was one of the city

21     municipalities and it covered a large territory, roughly 50 to 60

22     kilometres towards Gorazde, Sokolac, Olovo.  And all of these persons --

23     and actually, this list does not include all the ethnic Muslims who were

24     expelled from that area.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the

Page 5549

 1     English translation and page 7 of the B/C/S original.  In the English

 2     translation, if we could please scroll to the bottom of the page.

 3        Q.   Directing your attention to the entry for 13/14 December 1992

 4     that states the police commander of the Hrid-Jarcedoli police station

 5     killed himself with an M-70 automatic rifle.  Do you know what happened

 6     before this police station commander killed himself?

 7        A.   Yes.  The commander was our colleague who had lost his entire

 8     family a few days before that.  A shell that was fired from these Chetnik

 9     positions killed his wife and two children.

10             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 21 of the

11     English translation and page 63 of the B/C/S copy.

12        Q.   Turning your attention to the entry for 17/18 April 1993, under

13     Sedrenik that indicates a 13-year-old girl was lightly wounded by the

14     "sower of death" which you have previously mentioned now during your

15     testimony.  Since this is one of many entries in these notebooks that

16     refer to the sower of death, could you please explain to us what this

17     reference is to?

18        A.   Sower of death probably has a different name as well, a technical

19     name, but this is an automatic weapon that has immense firing power.

20     It's a recent thing.  I did my military service in the JNA in 1980, and I

21     did not come across this weapon.

22             Basically amongst us we said, and perhaps that is actually the

23     case, that when this weapon is fired, as a bullet leaves the barrel the

24     next bullet is in the middle of the barrel, and the third bullet is also

25     fired and in the barrel at the same time.  So that shows how fast bullets

Page 5550

 1     are fired from this weapon.

 2        Q.   Were there multiple locations where civilians in Sarajevo were

 3     fired upon by this type of weapon?

 4        A.   Of course.  There is not a single part of the city of Sarajevo

 5     that was not fired at from this weapon.

 6        Q.   Do you know where a sower of death-type weapon was located in

 7     relation to the Sedrenik neighbourhood?

 8        A.   Well, when the aggression was launched against

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Chetniks -- or, rather, the Army of Republika

10     Srpska took all the elevations around Sarajevo and around the old town.

11     So basically on every elevation there was a weapon like this.

12        Q.   Previously we looked at a photograph where you marked a letter S

13     in an area that you've identified as a sniping location on a hill in

14     Spicasta Stijena.  Do you know where there was a sower of death in

15     relation to this location that you marked?

16        A.   I marked only one location from which a sniper operated, where we

17     had located it.  However, Spicasta Stijena is an area that covers a large

18     part of the Sedrenik area, and --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

20             Consultations during the break.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   Sir, if you could continue with your answer as you've been

24     provided it, or if you'd like me to repeat the question, I can do that.

25        A.   Yes, yes.  I shall continue.  So Spicasta Stijena is one part.

Page 5551

 1     It's an elevation, an area where the lines of the Army of Republika

 2     Srpska were.  From these trenches, and there were quite a few of them,

 3     small arms were opened, death sowers and snipers.

 4             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 19776 as

 5     a public exhibit.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, could I take the witness back to

 7     one of the pages of this document.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Of course.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 24 in English, 71 in B/C/S.

10             Witness, I am referring to the entry which you said was about

11     your brother being wounded.  You'll find it at the -- under the

12     Bascarsija entry.  In English what is written below reads:  "All wounded

13     at the Dom Ljiljana."  Could you tell us is that the place where these

14     persons were wounded, hit by a shell?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dom Ljiljana is in the

16     Branilaca Sarajeva Street.  They were all wounded in that street by that

17     building.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  To the extent you know, were they wounded

19     outside that building?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is what is written here, that

21     they were wounded by that building.  That is to say that they were

22     outdoors.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us that your brother was on his way to

24     work.  What was the job of your brother?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An electrician, a repairman.  He

Page 5552

 1     repairs electricity.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  He did not or did he perform his job on that

 3     day at the BH Army Social Centre as it is written here?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was employed in a company called

 5     unioninvest.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but was he -- at that moment was he doing his

 7     job in or -- in relation to that building, or was he just passing by, or

 8     do you know?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was passing by this building.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Any objections against the admission of

11     the document just referred to.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Well, we wouldn't object to the portions that were

13     used, but to accept the whole document as this one only on the basis of

14     several questions, we do object.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the testimony of the witness also identified

17     and authenticated the document as the one he knew, that's at least what I

18     understand from his testimony, and the Chamber understands from his

19     testimony, the objection is denied.

20             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19776 becomes Exhibit P549, Your

22     Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P549 is admitted into evidence.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 19774.

Page 5553

 1        Q.   Mr. Djozo, do you recognise this document?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Are you familiar with the events that are described in this

 4     report?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In paragraph 25 of your statement which has now been admitted,

 7     you describe your participation in an on-site investigation into a

 8     shelling that occurred approximately a month before the Markale II

 9     incident, which happened on Dzenetica Cikma Street.  Does this report

10     relate to this same on-site investigation that you described in your

11     statement?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   In the heading of the document the date indicated is 26 May 1995.

14     The first line of the report says it was created on the 26th of June,

15     1995.  There are multiple references in the body of this report to the

16     shelling occurring on the 25th of June and the on-site investigation

17     being conducted on the 26th.

18             Could you please clarify the date of the shelling, the date that

19     the shelling occurred.

20        A.   The shelling occurred on the 25th of June, 1995, in the afternoon

21     hours.

22        Q.   Based on that answer, then, is the date in the heading a

23     typographical error?

24        A.   The on-site investigation was carried out on the following day,

25     in the morning, on the 26th of June, 1995.  Probably it was impossible to

Page 5554

 1     carry it out because children had been killed or seriously wounded, and

 2     it could not have been completed properly during the night.

 3        Q.   Sir, I just --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just going to ask you to focus on the question.

 5     There seems to be, Mr. Weber, the date on this document is the 26th of

 6     the fifth month.  Is that -- is that a mistake?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, that is certainly a mistake.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It almost goes without saying, Mr. Weber,

 9     unless there's any reason to assume that someone has intentionally

10     backdated it, so therefore even the Chamber would understand this to be a

11     typographical -- a clerical error.  Please proceed.

12             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The Prosecution tenders

13     65 ter 19774 as a public exhibit.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19774 becomes Exhibit P550, Your

16     Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P550 is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 23137 for

19     the witness.

20        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the drawing that is before you?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you make this drawing?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did you sign it and date the page that is before you, in the

25     lower right corner?

Page 5555

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Could you please explain to us what is depicted in this drawing.

 3        A.   This is a sketch of the location where children were fired upon

 4     and killed in the street of Dzenetica Cikma.

 5        Q.   Does it relate to the same incident which we just looked at in

 6     that report and which you also describe in your statement?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, before proceeding with the next

 9     question, I just wanted to -- and I apologise to the Chamber for this.

10     With respect to the last document, P550, there maybe an issue of

11     protective measures related to that.  I'd ask that it be changed from

12     public to under seal.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It's under seal.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   Is the street name that is towards the top of the drawing called

16     Petrarkina Street?  Did I say that correctly?

17        A.   Petrarkina Street.  That's its name, Petrarkina Street.

18        Q.   What is the former name of this street?

19        A.   It was called Petrarkina, but I don't know what it's called

20     nowadays.

21        Q.   Between Petrarkina and street and Dzenetica Cikma Street, there

22     are three small star shapes.  What do these represent?

23        A.   It is approximately in these locations that the shells exploded.

24        Q.   At the bottom left hand of this drawing there is another small

25     star-shaped symbol above the words "Markale Trznica."  What does this

Page 5556

 1     star represent?

 2        A.   The explosion that took place in August 1995 when many citizens

 3     of Sarajevo were killed.  It's Markale II.

 4        Q.   What is the approximate distance between the location where the

 5     incident occurred on Dzenetica Cikma Street and the location where

 6     Markale II incident took place?  If you could, if you could approximate

 7     in metres.

 8        A.   Approximately 50 metres or 20, 30, roughly.

 9             MR. WEBER:  At this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 23137 as

10     a public exhibit.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 23137 becomes Exhibit P551, Your

13     Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P551 is admitted.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 11724.  If

16     for the time being it could please not be broadcast to the public.  I

17     apologise.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. WEBER:  It's 65 ter 19724.

20        Q.   Do you recognise the official report is before you now?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   This official report refers to on-site investigations into seven

23     shellings that occurred on 1 July 1995.  Did you participate in any of

24     these investigations?

25        A.   This was shelling here in Stari Grad centre, and I took part in

Page 5557

 1     some of the on-site investigations that were covered by the public

 2     security station of Stari Grad.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both

 4     versions.

 5        Q.   Directing your attention to the paragraph that indicates:

 6     "... the on-site investigation team was joined by Djozo Nedzib, SJB,

 7     Stari Grad operative worker."  Do you see that paragraph?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you participate in the on-site investigations that are

10     described in the paragraphs following the mention of your name in this

11     report?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I'd like to ask you about two of the shellings that are described

14     after the mention of your name.  Approximately what was the distance

15     between the location where a mortar projectile landed on Branilaca Grada

16     Street on 1415 hours and the location where a mortar landed at

17     Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street at 1430?  Again, if you can approximate in

18     metres.

19        A.   It's the street nearby, so the distance is not more than 50

20     metres.

21        Q.   Where are these two locations related in relation to where the

22     mortar hit the Markale marketplace on 28 August 1995?

23        A.   In the street of Mula Mustafe Baseskije is the market in front of

24     which this shell fell.  The distance from this shell that fell on the 1st

25     of July, 1995, at 1400 hours to the place where it fell on the 28th of

Page 5558

 1     August, 1995, it's not more than 100 metres.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, before we continue, I am looking at the

 3     clock.  You had a time estimate of one hour.  Seven minutes are left from

 4     that.  Do you think that you would finish in those seven minutes?  Then

 5     we could consider to take the break slightly later.

 6             MR. WEBER:  I was going to tender this document and ask one last

 7     question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. WEBER:  So, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution at this time tender 65 ter

12     19724 under seal.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19724 becomes Exhibit P552 under seal,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted as such.  That means under seal,

17     under this number.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Mr. Djozo, in paragraph 35 of your statement, you state:

20              "My view regarding these and other shellings, which was shared

21     by others at the police station, is that the fire was adjusted until they

22     reached the very crowded Markale to cause a big number of casualties."

23             When you refer to these and other shellings, what other shellings

24     are you referring to?

25        A.   At the beginning of the war, the shelling that ensued across

Page 5559

 1     Sarajevo mostly targeted the areas where citizens, children,

 2     firefighters, and paramedics would gather.  So, for instance, on

 3     Vase Miskina Street, it was the line for bread.  Next to Pivara or the

 4     brewery there was a line for water.  Children sledding at

 5     Alipasino Polje.  The sports match at Dobrinja.  They specifically

 6     targeted the locations where a larger number of citizens would gather.

 7     In the Stari Grad area, it was precisely these spots that were targeted;

 8     namely Markale, the open-air marketplace at Mula Mustafe Baseskije

 9     Street, the closed-in marketplace at the entrance to which people would

10     mill around on their way in or on their way out shopping for food to live

11     on.  All the citizens of Sarajevo, as well as others, know that this was

12     done deliberately.

13             Of course, the media of the Republika Srpska did everything in

14     their power to persuade the international community above all and then --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  This goes well beyond your question.

16     Therefore, if you would have addressed that matter that would have been

17     different, but the witness --

18             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour, for your assistance.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That was your last question.

20             MR. WEBER:  That was my last question.  I would just make a note

21     if we are going to break, we haven't received notice of the

22     cross-documents, and it would be of assistance so we could print them out

23     and look them over during the break.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What we'll do is the following:  First, Mr. Djozo,

25     we'll take a break, and we'd like you to see you back after that break.

Page 5560

 1             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We then move into private session for a short

 4     moment, and meanwhile we perhaps hear from Mr. Lukic whether the

 5     documents to be used in cross-examination are already communicated to the

 6     Prosecution.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5561











11 Page 5561 redacted. Private session.















Page 5562

1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and will resume at 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 7             Mr. Lukic, as matters stand now, what is your time estimate?  For

 8     the remainder of the day?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Leaving some time for the Prosecution, I take

11     it.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djozo, you'll now be cross-examined by

16     Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic, and you'll find him over

17     there.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djozo.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   Can we start?

22        A.   Of course.

23        Q.   I will start with some general questions first.  From your

24     statement, we know where you worked before June 1991 when you became a

25     policeman.  Before you became a policeman, did you complete any training

Page 5563

 1     or schooling, or were you simply mobilised?

 2        A.   I joined the police force voluntarily.

 3        Q.   And you work as a policeman until mid-1994.  I apologise, but I'm

 4     waiting for interpretation to finish.  Then you move on to take the

 5     duties of an investigator in the crime police department.  In the

 6     meantime, that is to say from the time you joined the police force and

 7     the time you took up these duties, did you complete any schooling?

 8        A.   Yes.  We had training and courses in the police station, or more

 9     precisely, in the CSB.

10        Q.   Up until 1992, you performed a duty which had nothing to do

11     whatsoever with weapons; is that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   As a member of the police force, you became a member of the armed

14     forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you not?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You explained to us that you were a gunner in a mortar platoon

17     and a site setter.  Can you tell us on how many occasions were you

18     handling a mortar?

19        A.   I joined the Yugoslav People's Army in 1980.  I had training in

20     Banja Luka, and at that point I was immediately assigned to the post of a

21     site setter or gunner in charge of a mortar.  I was given the rank of

22     lance corporal first and then corporal, and I was the commander or the

23     leader of a platoon.  Let me just complete my answer.  In the training I

24     undertook first, we went through live ammunition target practice, and

25     then since I was there receiving two more generations of recruits, I

Page 5564

 1     therefore went through two more live ammunition target practices.

 2        Q.   And what was the mortar you were trained for?

 3        A.   82-millimetre mortar.

 4        Q.   In your earlier testimony, they asked you if you knew what the

 5     range of fire of a 120-millimetre mortar was, and your answer at the time

 6     was that you didn't know.  Is that still the case?  Do you still not know

 7     what the range of a 120-millimetre mortar?

 8        A.   No, I don't know the range of a 120-millimetre mortar, but I do

 9     know very well that that it is 4.800 metres in the case of an

10     82-millimetre mortar.

11        Q.   In paragraph 8 of your statement, you say that you were wounded

12     close to the police station.

13        A.   Yes.  I was wounded at the front door practically to the police

14     station.

15        Q.   We will come back to this and other cases when we will be

16     establishing the direction of fire.  I would now like to move on to

17     another part of your statement.  You don't have the statement before you,

18     do you?

19        A.   No.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Can the statement be provided to the witness for me

21     by the Prosecution?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If the Prosecution has a spare copy.

23             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm providing it to the Court

24     Officer.  For the record, we provided the B/C/S translation only.  Not

25     the signed version.

Page 5565

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Paragraphs are there, so that should be no

 2     problem.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Let's look at paragraph 12.  It speaks about

 5     investigations into sniping and shelling incidents.  In fact, it starts

 6     before paragraph 9.  There you explain what your job was, and I mean in

 7     paragraph 12.

 8             You were not able to substitute for either a ballistics expert or

 9     a forensic officer in terms of their expertise.

10        A.   Of course.  They were experts in their own field and were the

11     only ones who were competent to address them.

12        Q.   You were not authorised to engage into any evaluation of the type

13     of ammunition retrieved at the crime scene; right?

14        A.   It was the domain of the ballistics expert who would tell us what

15     sort of shell or bullet was involved.

16        Q.   Likewise, you weren't entitled to assess what sort of projectile

17     was involved in the shelling incidents; is that right?

18        A.   Estimates could have been given by anyone, but the only document

19     that carried validity was the one produced by the ballistics officer.

20        Q.   Moreover, you were not entitled to nor was this part of your

21     duties to determine the direction of fire in the case of a shell or a

22     bullet; right?

23        A.   It was always done by the ballistics officer who was a member of

24     the on-site investigation team.

25        Q.   Paragraph 14.  You also explain what you were doing there, and

Page 5566

 1     you say that one of the important documents that you produced was the

 2     Official Note.  Who had the right from among those who were in your

 3     police station to draft these official notes?

 4        A.   If a duty operative officer or an inspector was present in the

 5     police station, he was duty-bound to produce a record of the on-site

 6     investigation, and an Official Note was a document which could be part of

 7     that report.  The Official Note was produced by authorised officials, and

 8     they would send the note to the operative officer in charge of the

 9     on-site investigation, and then the overall documentation would have been

10     forwarded to the competent investigating judge.

11        Q.   Let's look at paragraph 16 now.  In that part of your statement,

12     you deal with the sniping area of Spicasta Stijena, an issue that we

13     heard discussed today.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have P3 in e-court for a brief

15     moment, specifically page 30.  It's page 26 in the binder.  Can we have

16     just the one image.  Thank you.

17        Q.   In this photograph, do you recognise Sedrenik and Spicasta

18     Stijena?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   On the left-hand side you see this elevated area with antennae.

21     Can you recognise what it is?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   That is Grdonj, isn't it?

24        A.   Yes.  It's an elevation.

25        Q.   Grdonj, this elevation was held by who?

Page 5567

 1        A.   If you mean the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, they were behind this

 2     part that is displayed now where the radio tower is.

 3        Q.   Who was on the elevation itself?

 4        A.   As far as I know, there was no one on the elevation itself.

 5        Q.   From this elevation, was it possible to control the area of

 6     Spicasta Stijena?

 7        A.   No.  It was not possible, because you can see the terrain for

 8     yourself.  It was rocky.  It wasn't forested.  And as far as I know,

 9     there was no one there.

10        Q.   Near Sedrenik, Spicasta Stijena, and Grdonj, was there also

11     Kobilja Glava?

12        A.   Kobilja Glava is part of a neighbourhood near Vogosca which is a

13     few kilometres away from here.

14        Q.   Thank you.  On the other side -- or, actually, in relation to

15     Spicasta Stijena, where is the area called Sedam Suma?

16        A.   Sedam Suma was the forested part of Sedrenik, which is no longer

17     there.  The trees have been cut down.  It's on the right-hand side of

18     this photograph.

19        Q.   Is it also correct that from Grdonj one could see all of

20     Sedrenik?

21        A.   Not only Sedrenik but also part of Pionirska Dolina, Kosevo, the

22     town itself.

23        Q.   Do you know that the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska

24     and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the area of Grdonj and

25     Spicasta Stijena were 20 metres apart?

Page 5568

 1        A.   No, I don't know that, because as a policeman, I never came to

 2     these positions.

 3        Q.   All right.  Do you know that in the area of Sedrenik there were

 4     parts of the 105th Brigade of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 5        A.   I heard of these names, but which territory, which part of the

 6     territory was held by them, I really don't know.

 7        Q.   Have you heard that in addition to the fact that the

 8     infrastructure and the staff of that brigade were there, there was also

 9     the 1st and 2nd Battalion of the 150th Brigade?

10        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Paragraph 18, please.  You speak of the composition

12     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was stationed in Sedrenik, and you

13     say that basically these were citizens or residents of Sedrenik.

14        A.   I did not say that the BH Army was stationed at Sedrenik.

15     Rather, I said that on the right and left side of Spicasta Stijena there

16     were one or two trenches that were facing Mrkovici, or, rather,

17     Spicasta Stijena up there, the Army of Republika Srpska.

18        Q.   And what about the members of the Army of Republika Srpska who

19     were on the other side?  Where were they from, do you know?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Is it correct that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps consisted of

22     people from the areas of Sarajevo and Romanija?

23        A.   I don't know about that.

24        Q.   You don't know at all where these soldiers of the

25     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps came from?

Page 5569

 1        A.   No.  I never saw a single document that would prove any of that.

 2        Q.   I'm asking you this because in your reports, and today as well,

 3     well, you call them Chetniks today, and that's also contained in your

 4     reports.  And you also called them aggressors.  What was your basis for

 5     denoting the units of the Army of Republika Srpska in this way?

 6        A.   The statements of these persons themselves on television were

 7     such, and to this day you hear statements like that on television, people

 8     who introduce themselves as Chetniks.  They themselves say that they are

 9     Chetniks.

10        Q.   What I wanted to ask you was whether you called all the members

11     of the Army of Republika Srpska Chetniks, and did you call their fire

12     Chetnik fire or aggressor fire, or were these positions of the Army of

13     Republika Srpska?

14        A.   It's not only Chetnik fire.  At that time they had the support of

15     the JNA.

16        Q.   Which period are we talking about, please?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  To the intent you wanted to draw the attention of

18     the Chamber to the language used by this witness where he says Chetniks,

19     by the way, he corrected himself before the break once in saying giving

20     the different name, you have succeeded in doing that.  To the extent it's

21     necessary to further elaborate we'll see, but that point is clear to the

22     Chamber.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] We shall move on then to paragraph 19.  In that

25     paragraph, you say that your estimate was that about 100 civilians were

Page 5570

 1     killed by fire coming from Spicasta Stijena.  Then in paragraph 20 you

 2     say many civilians from Sedrenik were wounded and killed.  Their number's

 3     around 50 and 100, but this is not exact data.

 4             In the Perisic trial --

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D445 in e-court

 6     now.  It's the transcript from that trial.  4556 is the page that we

 7     need, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Can we have e-court page, please.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  It should be page 12.  Forty-two, actually.  Sorry.

10     That's the right page, and we need lines 17 through 21, please.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] My colleague put a question to you here.  I'll

12     read it in English so that you can get the right interpretation.

13             [In English] "Q. I asked you very specifically whether you are

14     aware of any other incidents besides the two that you participated in.

15     Are you aware of any other concrete incident, victim or a colleague of

16     yours who participated in an investigation of a very concrete incident?"

17             And your answer was:

18             "A. I can't remember any."

19             [Interpretation] This is what I'm going to ask you today, and

20     we'll deal with these two incidents as well.  Is it correct that you have

21     knowledge, specific knowledge, about two incidents only, two incidents of

22     wounding in Sedrenik, one is Selmanovic, Dervisa, and the second one is

23     Ibrahim Podrug; is that correct?

24        A.   In the police station of Stari Grad at that time, there were

25     about 20 persons who worked as inspectors and who carried out on-site

Page 5571

 1     investigations.  I'm only one of them.  So I don't know how many on-site

 2     investigations they carried out.  I'm saying that I attended those two.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  In order to avoid confusion at a later, Mr. Lukic,

 5     4556 transcript page, it's page 43 [realtime transcript read in error

 6     "42"] in e-court.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  At least in my e-court.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now where you earlier wanted to take us to

11     page 42, it's now in our transcript it's by mistake recorded as if I said

12     42.  I said page 43.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] As you went to the site in Sedrenik, were major

17     offensives of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina underway against the

18     positions of the Army Republika Srpska in Barici and Mrkovici from

19     mid-May until mid-July 1995?  Do you remember that?

20        A.   No.  I cannot remember whether there were attacks against

21     Spicasta Stijena or, rather, the Mrkovici neighbourhood.

22        Q.   All right.  We saw P546 today and we would like to have it called

23     up in e-court again, please.  This is a statement made by

24     Mirsad Kuburovic, and you took that statement, right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5572

 1        Q.   Can you see from this statement how Ibrahim Podrug was wounded,

 2     where the fire came from that wounded him?

 3        A.   This statement was taken from a man who worked as a driver for

 4     the emergency medical service who transferred this man who had been

 5     lethally wounded.  In this Official Note, no reference was made to where

 6     the fire had come from.

 7        Q.   Were there Serb positions at some points from which they could

 8     observe Sedrenik but being below Sedrenik at the same time?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   In the second paragraph underneath the lettering that says

11     "Statement," this is what was stated, this is what you say:  It was

12     stated then that Ibrahim Podrug was wounded by a firearm, that it's an

13     exit-entry wound.  The entry wound was at the rear of the thigh muscle

14     while the exit wound was in the area of the groin.

15             As lay persons I can say that it seems to me that Mr. Ibrahim

16     Podrug was standing at a location that was higher than the location where

17     the shooter was, but this is something that forensic experts should be

18     dealing with.  The only thing I want to ask you is the following:  You

19     correctly registered the information that was provided to you by

20     Mr. Kuburovic; is that right?

21        A.   This is Mirsad Kuburovic's statement.

22        Q.   Thank you.  You say that fire was opened against you while you

23     were carrying out your on-site investigation at Sedrenik.  You were never

24     wounded at Sedrenik; right?

25        A.   No.

Page 5573

 1        Q.   How far away is Spicasta Stijena from Sedrenik?

 2        A.   Well, roughly 500 to 700 metres to the last part of those houses

 3     that are called the Sedrenik neighbourhood.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now move on to Dervisa Selmanovic's wounding,

 5     and we need P548 for that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  While waiting for that, Mr. Lukic, you I think

 7     rightly left a matter to the forensic experts.  You said as lay persons I

 8     can say that it seems to me that Mr. Ibrahim Podrug was standing at a

 9     location that was higher than the location where the shooter was.  Now,

10     we leave it in the hands, but what I have -- I'm trying to understand

11     your observation which is not a question.  What makes you believe that he

12     was standing when he was shot?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly.  That's why I left it for the forensic

14     experts.  We don't know whether he was standing or --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But you say standing higher or lower already assumes

16     a position of standing.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  He can be lying or be seated.  I just wondered

19     whether I missed something where you said whether standing was lower or

20     higher where I thought whether he was seated, lying down, et cetera.  I

21     have no clue yet.  So apart from higher or lower, even whether he was

22     standing.  I have no clue in the --

23             MR. LUKIC:  I couldn't find that clue either in this document --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then I didn't miss anything.  Just for

25     me to fully under your -- what you would like to leave to the forensics.

Page 5574

 1     Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But is your position, Mr. Lukic, that he was

 4     standing or do you -- are you open to any other posture that he might

 5     have taken until you hear evidence by the observer?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I'm open for anything, Your Honour, but if he -- that

 7     gentleman were standing --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, but the problem is the experts will not tell

 9     us whether he was standing or not.  It's an eyewitness only who can tell

10     us whether he was standing, or the position he was in when he was shot.

11             MR. LUKIC:  We cannot find it from the documentation,

12     Your Honour.  I tried to find it but I couldn't.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Now we're looking at the document which speaks

17     about the wounding of Ms. Dervisa Selmanovic.  As you were conducting

18     this on-site investigation, you did not find any of the injured at the

19     scene, did you?

20        A.   No, I didn't.

21        Q.   It was the neighbours who described the incident for you; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You didn't take any statements from them, did you?

24        A.   This was referred to in the record of the on-site investigation.

25        Q.   What was stated, that you took statements from them or that you

Page 5575

 1     didn't?

 2        A.   The record of the on-site investigation stated that the

 3     neighbours were interviewed and they informed the on-site investigation

 4     team about what had happened.

 5        Q.   You did not attend the scene itself, did you?

 6        A.   We reached the house.  We didn't attend the spot where Dervisa

 7     was wounded because we were afraid that we would come under sniper fire.

 8        Q.   From that spot you photographed the seen which others told you

 9     was the place where Dervisa Selmanovic was wounded; right?

10        A.   The crime scene examiners photographed the crime scene itself,

11     which had bloodstains for everyone to see.

12        Q.   You didn't show these photographs to Ms. Selmanovic when you

13     interviewed her; right?

14        A.   No, we didn't show them to her, because the photographic

15     documentation was already with the investigating judge.

16        Q.   Based on the story told to you by the neighbours, you produced

17     the report arising from the on-site investigation; right?

18        A.   They were not stories.  They were testimonies given by

19     eyewitnesses.

20        Q.   I'd like to move on to the part which speaks about the shelling

21     of the area close to the Markale marketplace but before the incidents

22     Markale II happened.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And the document looked at in that

24     context was P550.  [In English] This document shouldn't be broadcasted, I

25     think.  The Prosecution asked for it.

Page 5576

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, based on your previous query, the

 3     Prosecution did check.  It is okay for this document and also P552 to be

 4     public exhibits and broadcasted.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore then the -- the status of this

 6     document P550 is public, and P552 as well.

 7             MR. WEBER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, both documents are public documents

 9     from now on.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Here you speak about something that happened approximately two

12     months before the incident called Markale II.  When the incident

13     described in this document took place, you were not on duty; is that

14     right?

15        A.   I was on duty, but I was not the individual assigned to the

16     on-site investigation duty that day.

17        Q.   It was a colleague of yours; right?

18        A.   Yes.  The colleague under number 2 was the duty investigator in

19     the Stari Grad station that day.  Since the information received was that

20     there were persons killed and children wounded, he asked me to come along

21     and help.

22        Q.   Does the documentation state anywhere what the house number was

23     in front of which the shells landed?

24        A.   The street involved is Dzenetica Cikma Street, and the house

25     numbers 8 through 12.

Page 5577

 1        Q.   You cannot tell at this time what the precise locations were from

 2     which this area was fired upon; right?

 3        A.   At the time, it was said that the shells were fired from the

 4     north, from the area of village of Mrkonjici.

 5        Q.   In your statement you say that two or three children were harmed

 6     or fell victim, and then you say later on that you don't know who fell

 7     victim, and then as a third possibility, you say that there may not have

 8     been any persons harmed or killed after all.

 9        A.   The on-site investigation team attended the scene on the 26th of

10     June, whereas the incident happened on the 25th of June.  In other words,

11     I didn't see the children killed or wounded.  We received that

12     information later.

13        Q.   You say that it was said at the time that the shell had come from

14     the north, specifically from the area beyond Spicasta Stijena; is that

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.  The village or neighbourhood of Mrkonjic lies behind or

17     beyond Spicasta Stijena.

18        Q.   Between Mrkovici and the place where the shells landed, the

19     forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were deployed; is that right?

20        A.   From Dzenetica Cikma Street all the way to Spicasta Stijena,

21     there lie the neighbourhoods of Bjelave, Podhrastovo, Sedrenik.  I don't

22     know if in that inhabited area there were forces of the Army of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina deployed or not.

24        Q.   Today we discussed the fact that there were forces deployed in

25     Sedrenik itself.  We were able to see that it was a forested area.  Is

Page 5578

 1     the only place between Spicasta Stijena and the place where the shells

 2     landed Sedrenik itself?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat his answer.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please repeat your answer, Witness.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   The interpreters didn't hear your answer.

 7        A.   I don't know that there were units of the Army of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina in the neighbourhood of Sedrenik.  The neighbourhood

 9     was such that it comprised stand-alone family homes rather than

10     residential buildings.

11        Q.   Very well.  Let's move on to the incident where you said three

12     shells landed?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I would have one question which I think

14     is close to what you asked the witness.  You said that the shell came

15     from the north, and -- let me find it.  Specifically from the area beyond

16     Spicasta Stijena, and you said yes.  On what basis did you establish the

17     distance, it being beyond Spicasta Stijena?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The record of the on-site

19     investigation does not say that it was ascertained to have been there.

20     It stated that it was approximately the area of Mrkonjici and the area

21     lies beyond Spicasta Stijena.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That still implies an assessment of distance that is

23     beyond Spicasta Stijena and not closer to where the shell fell.  Whether

24     it's an area or whether it's a place, it certainly is at a distance not

25     less than the distance to Spicasta Stijena.  On what basis was it

Page 5579

 1     established that it was that area beyond that sharp rock feature?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was stated by ballistics experts

 3     who were from the CSB.  This was taken from their statement.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you do not know on what basis they stated

 5     that, whether it was an assumption or whether it was on the basis of any

 6     specific finding?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know on what basis they

 8     stated it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Should we make a break now since I'm on the other

11     topic and this?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If this would be a suitable moment for a

13     break, we take the break now, and after the witness has left the

14     courtroom.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you may proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   May we proceed, sir.  I would just briefly like to go back to

24     this description of yours, this description that you provided for death

25     sowers.  Did you ever see that weapon?  Have you ever seen it?

Page 5580

 1        A.   Only in photographs.

 2        Q.   Is that something special that only the Serb forces had, or is

 3     that a machine-gun?

 4        A.   Well, it's a machine-gun.  At first it was only the army of -- I

 5     mean the JNA, rather, probably requisitioned the weapon.

 6        Q.   Was this weapon manufactured in the former Yugoslavia or is it an

 7     imported weapon?

 8        A.   I think that it was manufactured in Yugoslavia.

 9        Q.   Would you agree with me then that the members of the Army of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina also had that weapon?

11        A.   Maybe afterwards in the war if they happened to seize one.

12        Q.   In your police station, as far as weaponry is concerned, you had

13     762 automatic rifles; right?

14        A.   At the beginning of the war, yes.

15        Q.   You also had sniper weapons, didn't you?

16        A.   I don't remember that we had sniper weapons, but we did have

17     semi-automatic rifles.

18        Q.   Did you have M-74 light machine-guns?

19        A.   I don't remember, but maybe it was the old machine-gun, M-53.

20     Maybe we had one or something like that.

21        Q.   Did you have NATO rifles?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   What about the Special Police forces?  Did they have NATO rifles?

24        A.   I don't know.

25        Q.   Did you find out and what kind of weapon wounded these two

Page 5581

 1     persons who were wounded at Sedrenik?

 2        A.   No.  Although we looked for it, we were trying to find the

 3     ammunition, but we didn't manage to find the weapon or the person who

 4     fired the weapon.

 5        Q.   Did you find out that Mrs. Selmanovic, Dervisa Selmanovic, worked

 6     in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        A.   I took a statement from her.  She may have been involved as a

 8     cook or something like that, but I don't remember her being involved in

 9     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10        Q.   Now we are going to discuss the three shells.  What was it that

11     you told us?  What was established?  From which direction did they come?

12        A.   The three shells in Dzenetica Cikma or some other shells?

13        Q.   The three shells that you said were fired and you said that they

14     were looking for a target.

15        A.   Our view is that the shells that fell in Dzenetica Cikma were

16     actually intended for Markale, and I was also doing an on-site

17     investigation when shells were falling from --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

19     repeat all the names of the streets slowly.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the all the names of the

21     streets and do it slowly so that the interpreters are able to translate.

22     Please proceed.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So in the first case it is

24     Dzenetica Cikma.  We believed then and we are of the opinion now that

25     this was actually being fired at Markale, because that is where most of

Page 5582

 1     the citizens were.  On the other hand, I also carried out an on-site

 2     investigation, so I was present when in the street Skenderija an on-site

 3     investigation was carried out.  Hamdija Kresovljakovica is it's name now.

 4     And then Branilaca Sarajeva near the municipality of Stari Grad, then the

 5     street of Ferhadija near the school of economics of the University of

 6     Sarajevo and --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please calm down because you're creating

 8     the same problem as you did before.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So you have mentioned now the -- clearly the first

11     street.  You then talked about the street Skenderija, and could you

12     repeat what its name is now.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hamdija Kresovljakovica.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The last street you referred to started with

15     Ferhadija.  Is that -- could you repeat that as well?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The other street is

17     Branilaca Sarajeva.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Were those all the streets you mentioned or are we

19     still missing one?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ferhadija is missing, and the

21     street called Mula Mustafe Baseskije.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] These explosions occurred two months before the

25     incident of Markale II; is that correct?

Page 5583

 1        A.   I don't have the official record before me.  I have the one of

 2     the 26th of June, 1995, but I think -- I think that it's before

 3     Markale II.

 4        Q.   That that was a preparation for Markale.  That's your assumption,

 5     isn't it?  It could not have been established through ballistic evidence.

 6     There was no evidence that the same weapons were fired.  These are just

 7     assumptions; right?

 8        A.   What we assumed happened in August 1995 as well.

 9        Q.   I shall repeat.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic is asking you the following:  If you have

11     not established whether the weapons used in these previous incidents of

12     shelling, then it is just an assumption to say that it was preparation

13     for Markale II, because you would -- because for Markale II, these

14     incidents to be a preparation for Markale II would require that the

15     shells were fired by the same weapons, and if you have been unable to

16     establish that, Mr. Lukic puts to you that, therefore, that must just be

17     an assumption, nothing more, nothing less.  Do you agree with that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   During the war, did you ever see artillery firing from the city

22     of Sarajevo, that is to say using guns, tanks, or mortars?  Artillery of

23     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is.

24        A.   No, I did not see any of that.

25        Q.   Do you know and did you know then where artillery pieces of the

Page 5584

 1     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were positioned in the town of Sarajevo?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   Do you know where artillery pieces of the Army of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina were positioned around the city of Sarajevo?

 5        A.   Again, I don't know.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If I could ask.  Did you know about the presence of

 7     artillery pieces of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo?  So

 8     irrespective of where they were, did you know that there were artillery

 9     pieces?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not know.  I'm not even

11     sure whether the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina possessed any such heavy

12     weaponry in Sarajevo.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   So in all your reports, you never took into account the

16     possibility of fire being opened by weapons that were in the possession

17     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

18        A.   No.  No, we never took into account such a possibility.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that UNPROFOR reported about incidents

20     when the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina fired at its own population?

21        A.   I never heard that officially.  Perhaps in chitchat.

22        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 29, you are talking about the first

23     shell that exploded in the street called Skenderija, and you say that a

24     young man who studied political science was killed and that it was close

25     to a secondary school.

Page 5585

 1             At that time, in the summer of 1995, were there any students in

 2     that school, and were classes going on in that school, or was it members

 3     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who were stationed in that school?  Do

 4     you know?

 5        A.   At that time and today and before the war this was the Faculty of

 6     Political Science, and that is where students were.  May I finish?  The

 7     young man who got killed is from Sedrenik.  Later on I met his father.

 8     He was 20-something years old, and he had come to enroll in university.

 9        Q.   That's what I asked you, but probably I misspoke.  Because these

10     were the summer months.  Certainly there were no classes going on; right?

11        A.   Well, it's possible that there were some lectures.

12        Q.   What's the month that we're discussing now?

13        A.   August.  But these were not normal times.  It wasn't the kind of

14     school that came to exist after the war.

15        Q.   You say that it's possible that there was a school there and

16     that -- but you don't know for sure that there were classes going on.

17        A.   What is certain is that that was the Faculty of Political Science

18     and that it was students who were there and not soldiers.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you a question.  Do you have exact

20     knowledge on classes ongoing in that school in the short time period

21     around the day when the shell -- shelling took place?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that period of time, that is to

23     say I'm talking about that year, those months, this was the Faculty of

24     Political Science where students went to classes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me interrupt you there then again.  Is that

Page 5586

 1     because you assume that when there's a Faculty of Political Science that

 2     students will be there, or do you know that classes were held and that

 3     students were there in that short weeks around this moment of shelling?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the statement that was given to

 5     me by the father of this young man who got killed, he said to me that his

 6     son had come there to enroll in university.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's still not an answer to my question,

 8     because the question was whether you know personally whether classes were

 9     held.  Do you know?  Then please tell us.  If you don't know, tell us as

10     well.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do not know whether classes

12     were being held.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the other question put to you by

14     Mr. Lukic was:  Do you have any knowledge of soldiers being stationed in

15     that Faculty of Political Science building around that period of time?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have any knowledge.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   In paragraph 31, you say that the second shell hit the then JNA

20     street as it was known then, and today it is known as the street of

21     Branilaca Grada Sarajeva in front of the building of the Stari Grad

22     municipality.  Do you know what kind of military installations or units

23     were in that building?

24        A.   That's the building of the Stari Grad municipality where clerks

25     of that municipality work.

Page 5587

 1        Q.   Were there armed policemen standing in front of that building?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   Also, is it correct that the centre for reconnaissance and

 4     reporting was in that building?

 5        A.   I'm not aware of that.  Only if from the -- before the war that

 6     was still there, that is to say that the municipality is the place from

 7     which reporting comes on fires and things like that.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  You say the third shell landed on

 9     Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street, which was called Marsala Tita Street at

10     the time.  Can you tell us the exact date when the three shells you

11     describe landed there?

12        A.   The record of the on-site investigation contains the exact date.

13     There were too many dates for me to remember them all.  I can't tell you

14     really.

15        Q.   Although this is not in the indictment, let us tie in the

16     incident of February 1994, that is to say Markale I, and Markale II of

17     August 1995.  As you sit here today, would you say that both these shells

18     were fired from Serbian positions?

19        A.   Let me say this:  The report produced by experts is the only true

20     finding in that matter.

21        Q.   We've already heard you say that you never checked if the shells

22     had come from the positions of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I will

23     nevertheless ask you this:  Did you double-check the statements that one

24     of these shells was actually thrown by hand out of one of the buildings

25     facing Markale?

Page 5588

 1        A.   Judging by the reports which state that this was a 120-millimetre

 2     shell which exploded at Markale, it is hard to conceive of the

 3     possibility that somebody would be throwing such a shell out of an

 4     enclosed space and that such a shell would then explode in this way.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we started by tying Markale I with

 6     Markale II.  Then you asked a question about both the incidents, and

 7     slowly we move to one or still both of the incidents?  That's unclear to

 8     me.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  The gentleman can't connect any rumour like this to

10     any of these explosions.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But the witness said judging by the report which

12     stated this was a 120-millimetre, then he apparently has one incident on

13     his mind.

14             Did you refer to Markale I in your answer where you said that the

15     report stated that it was a 120-millimetre shell?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All these stories that the shell

17     was a 120-millimetre shell had to do --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was did you refer to Markale I or to any

19     other incident?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Markale I.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It seems to be your question is broader than

22     the witness understands it.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5589

 1        Q.   Let me ask you this then:  Did you investigate the matter in

 2     relation to the incident known as Markale II?

 3        A.   No.  We didn't have the power to investigate into this incident.

 4        Q.   You said that you served your military service handling mortars.

 5     Can we agree that the mortar shell does not contain bomblets or pellets?

 6        A.   I don't know about that.  When I served the army in the 1980s, I

 7     did not come across any shells that would contain within them pellets.

 8        Q.   Do you know or did you come across information to the effect that

 9     there were individuals who were wounded during the Markale II incident as

10     a result of being hit by -- by pellets, that they had thus shaped

11     injuries?

12        A.   I only took the statement of one of the persons wounded in

13     Markale II, and the statement had to do with shrapnel rather than

14     pellets.

15        Q.   You were also asked about whether you participated in the

16     investigations taking place at the scene of Markale II and you said no,

17     so you cannot really tell us what direction was from which the shell that

18     exploded at Markale II had come from; is that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Likewise, you cannot tell you [as interpreted] what type of

21     projectile exploded at the location; right?

22        A.   Right.

23        Q.   Did you know at the time or do you know today that on the 28th of

24     August, 1995, UNPROFOR representatives did not detect any sort of

25     artillery activity from the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska?

Page 5590

 1        A.   I don't know about that.

 2        Q.   Did you receive information to the effect that UNPROFOR detected

 3     the fire that had come from the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska

 4     on the 28th of August, 1995?

 5        A.   I don't know about that either.

 6        Q.   To the extent that you can tell us about the incident of

 7     Markale II, you said that there was a ban in force against civilians

 8     moving about the town.  Is it true that in your subsequent testimonies

 9     you said that you didn't know who issued the ban, only to say at a later

10     stage that you weren't really sure whether the ban was in force at all?

11        A.   I didn't say that there was a ban on movement in Sarajevo.  I

12     said that there was -- well, not an order.  It was stated that there was

13     to be no assembling or lingering in the locations where food provisions

14     could be obtained and that people should spend there as little time as

15     possible.

16        Q.   You yourself said that the streets and the whole area of Markale

17     was suitable for movement because it was protected.  This is my question:

18     Is it true that there could be no clear line of sight of that area from

19     any of the VRS positions?

20        A.   That area cannot be seen from any vantage point within the town

21     itself either.  One could only see the eastward direction.  The positions

22     at Borje could have a view because it coincided with the direction

23     itself.

24        Q.   Is Borje within the town of Sarajevo?

25        A.   It is yet another elevation on the edge of Sarajevo to the east

Page 5591

 1     in the direction of Pale.

 2        Q.   Is it true that in the surroundings of Markale there were the

 3     reserve police units stationed?

 4        A.   The Stari Grad public security station, as was the case before

 5     and after the war, had policemen deployed into the individual local

 6     communes.  This did not apply to reserve police forces only but also to

 7     the active force.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will just view a short video-clip

 9     now.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you want the Chamber to seriously

11     consider the matters you are raising, then it would certainly help us to

12     know where the Stari Grad public security station was exactly, in what

13     street, what location, so we are able to establish what the distance was

14     to where the shells fell, but if you just are talking about streets -- or

15     is it on the video?  I hope too.

16             MR. LUKIC:  With the help of the witness, we can maybe learn

17     more.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps.  Let's first watch the video.  Is

19     there any sound on the video, Mr. Lukic?  I mean sounds -- any words

20     spoken, I should say.

21             MR. LUKIC:  We are not going to rely on sound or anything said,

22     just the video.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we only play it only once.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Can we play the video, please.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 5592

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Djozo, do you know that in this passage that we saw the armed

 3     person coming out of twice was the headquarters of the quartermaster

 4     service of the 1st Corps in the immediate vicinity of Markale?

 5        A.   No.  I am not aware of that.  What I do know is that there was a

 6     bakery there.  There was also a general store located there which wasn't

 7     open at the time.  And even if it was, there were very few goods to be

 8     obtained there.

 9        Q.   What was the distance between the Stari Grad police station and

10     Markale?

11        A.   Five hundred metres, perhaps more.

12        Q.   And the staff of the Territorial Defence of the Stari Grad

13     municipality?

14        A.   If there was a staff, then it could only have been housed in the

15     municipality.

16        Q.   You don't know where it was located?

17        A.   No, I don't.

18        Q.   You don't know that there was the quartermaster's storage of the

19     1st Corps headquartered in this passage that we saw the man in the

20     footage come out of?

21        A.   Well, as far as I know, I wasn't aware of the fact that they even

22     had had a quartermaster's storage place.  All I know is that all those

23     wounded and killed were transported to the state hospital and the

24     Kosevo Hospital.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, you should have stated that you

Page 5593

 1     stopped at video at 17 seconds.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you for your help, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and it was the footage from 3:28 to -- at least

 4     that was indicated, 3:28 to 3:41.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  We can finish the video again.  We can play it again.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could we ask the witness -- apparently,

 7     Mr. Lukic, you are focusing on the person at the extreme left of the

 8     video where there seems to be kind of a yellow -- yellow stripe, a

 9     person --

10             MR. LUKIC:  Behind that yellow stripe.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Behind that yellow stripe a person coming out and

12     going back soon after that.  Is that -- not really appearing in full.  Is

13     that what you're focusing on?

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  For the witness also to know that that is

16     specifically what has the attention of Mr. Lukic.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] I would have a more general question now for

20     you.  Is it true that you never saw a single report by ballistics

21     officers from the centre?  Is that right?

22        A.   That's right.  According to the rules of service, the ballistics

23     reports produced in the CSB are sent to the investigating judge in

24     charge.

25        Q.   And let us be specific as well.  You did not see such reports in

Page 5594

 1     respect of Ms. Dervisa Selmanovic or in respect of Ibro Podrug.  Am I

 2     right?

 3        A.   All the various sections produced their respective reports and

 4     sent them to the investigating judge in charge.  By the same token, I was

 5     not able to see these reports ever.

 6        Q.   Also, you never received or reviewed a single report compiled by

 7     doctors that had to do with injuries sustained from shells, bullets, and

 8     grenades during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

 9        A.   All medical findings, if any policeman went to the hospital and

10     took such findings, in this specific case I'm speaking about Selmanovic,

11     if this kind of report was received, again it was sent to the

12     investigating judge.

13        Q.   Again I will have to conclude that you never saw any such report.

14        A.   I did see a report on the wounding of Mrs. Selmanovic, whatever

15     her first name was.

16        Q.   Dervisa.

17        A.   That was submitted to the CSB and the investigative judge.  Those

18     were the appropriate institutions.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D445.  This is

20     the transcript from the Perisic trial of the 18th of March.  4549 is the

21     page we need.  It's page 36 in e-court.  We need lines 11 through 14.  We

22     have them on our screen.

23             [Interpretation] We have the wrong page.  We'll have to come back

24     to that.  That will be probably my last question.  I have the wrong

25     number in my notes.

Page 5595

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have the page of the transcript?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, but obviously I jotted down the wrong number of

 3     the page.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You don't have an e-court number?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  We do have it in e-court.  I just have to find it.

 6             Can we see the next page, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's about medical findings.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  There it is.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We are now looking at e-court page 37, which is

10     transcript page in that case 4550.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I'm going to read it out in English so that you can get the

15     proper interpretation of that.  This is what they asked you, line 11:

16             [In English] "Q. Did you ask the doctor to provide you with a

17     report about the nature of her wounds?

18             "A. No.  At the time, nobody did that.  We did not ask for

19     medical findings."

20             [Interpretation] Is it correct, therefore, that you did not ask

21     for medical reports from doctors at the time, that no one did that, and

22     that you did not request medical reports?

23        A.   In some cases when there was major shelling and therefore people

24     were wounded and killed, at that moment it was impossible to get such

25     findings.  These findings were issued to injured persons, and then police

Page 5596

 1     officials would interview these persons and take the findings involved

 2     and submit them to the persons in charge.

 3        Q.   I shall have to -- I shall have to take you back briefly to this.

 4     Obviously, this is a reference to Mrs. Selmanovic, because it says

 5     "report on her wounds, the nature of her words."  So it is in the

 6     singular, and the gender is feminine.

 7             So what is the correct out of the two, that you requested a

 8     report and received it or that you did not request it and did not receive

 9     it?

10        A.   The doctor who admitted Mrs. Selmanovic gave her these findings,

11     so it was only several months later that we managed to find the lady, and

12     it was only then that we got these findings as well.

13        Q.   Now there's a new line of questioning that opens up.  Could you

14     conclude whether -- or, rather, could you conclude on the basis of that

15     what kind of weapon wounded Mrs. Selmanovic?

16        A.   I don't have her statement here, but when we found her in her

17     apartment, the lady said that she had been wounded by a firearm that

18     fired from Spicasta Stijena.

19        Q.   Asim Zulic, does the name ring a bell?

20        A.   I don't know who Asim Zulic is.  The last name is well known.

21        Q.   Kemal Djozo, do you know who that is, a military man?  Is he a

22     relative of yours?

23        A.   A relative who worked in Macedonia.

24        Q.   During the course of the war, was Mr. Kemal Djozo involved in the

25     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 5597

 1        A.   I met Kemal while he was still at the military academy in Zadar,

 2     and I saw him sometime in 2009 in Ohrid.  In a conversation with him, I

 3     heard him say that he spent the entire war in Macedonia and that together

 4     with Mladic he was in the barracks there, that he stayed on in the

 5     barracks and continued his education and that he's a professor somewhere

 6     at the military academy.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Let us now move on to those improvised

 8     bombs made of bottles.  You were asked about that, and you said that you

 9     personally did not carry out an investigation about that because you were

10     not qualified to do that; is that correct?

11        A.   Just tell me what kind of bombs we are talking about.

12        Q.   Improvised ones made of bottles.

13        A.   Made of bottles.  As for these bottles, I heard about them during

14     the war, but towards the end of the war, I actually did see them

15     underneath Osmica, above the neighbourhood of Sirokaca.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D444 on our screens now,

17     please.  I have page 72.  We need page 9624, lines 5 through 11.  In

18     answer to the question which says.

19             "Q. You saw an unexploded gas cylinder with wheels and another

20     unexploited oil barrel that had wheels attached to it.  Did this perhaps

21     not call for a detailed investigation and a photo documentation, and was

22     such an investigation ever carried out?"

23             You said in line 9:

24             "A. No, I never did such an investigation, because I'm not

25     qualified for that."

Page 5598

 1             Is it therefore true that you did not investigate what this was

 2     about?

 3        A.   I did not investigate that, but my superiors were informed about

 4     this.  An Official Note was compiled.  Probably some of the ballistics

 5     people were made aware of this, and probably it was a ballistics person

 6     that carried out the investigation.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need page 79 of this same

 8     document in e-court, otherwise, it is page 9631 from the Karadzic trial.

 9     The date is the 10th of December, 2010, and the lines are from 22 to 24.

10        Q.   When speaking about that you said:

11             [In English] "The photographs were made by the person who signed

12     the photographs, and he probably stated that there were explosives

13     inside.  He's the only one who can say that this was so."

14             [Interpretation] My question now:  Is it correct that you

15     personally cannot confirm that these barrels or whatever were filled with

16     explosive?

17        A.   I cannot.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC:  I can see it's break time, Your Honour, and I will

20     have only a few questions after the break.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break first and be -- after the

22     witness has been escorted out of the courtroom.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

Page 5599

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 3     Meanwhile, I use the time for the following:  The Chamber has considered

 4     the objections raised against the admission of Exhibit P514 that was

 5     marked for identification on Thursday, the 15th of November, during the

 6     testimony of Francis Roy Thomas and has decided to admit it into

 7     evidence, and the Chamber informs the parties that it is still to decide

 8     on the admission of the two other exhibits marked for identification in

 9     respect to that same witness, that is, P503 and P512.

10             Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you may proceed.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] We are near the end, Mr. Djozo, but I do have a

14     couple of questions left for you.

15             As a policeman and later as an inspector, in how many

16     investigations did you take part which involved Serbian civilians killed

17     in the area covered by your police station?

18        A.   I can't remember.  We didn't keep a record based on whether a

19     person was a Serb or a Muslim.

20        Q.   Did you take part in investigations about the killings of Serbian

21     civilians in Kazani, which is an area that comes under your police

22     station, does it not?

23        A.   Yes.  I was in Kazani only once after the war, maybe in 1997 or

24     1998, when I think it was investigators from Belgrade arrived.

25        Q.   Did you investigate the prisons that kept Serbian individuals in

Page 5600

 1     the area under your purview?  And I mean private prisons.

 2        A.   As far as I know, in the municipality of Stari Grad and more

 3     generally in Sarajevo, there were no private prisons.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Those are all the

 5     questions I had for you.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could either the witness or you, Mr. Lukic, assist

 7     me in where to find approximately Kazani is, what area approximately.  We

 8     don't need maps, but if you tell me approximately where to find it,

 9     then ...

10             Witness, if you -- if you can tell me, Kazani is found where

11     approximately?  Just give us an indication.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kazani is situated on the slopes of

13     Trebevic, above the neighbourhood of Mahmutovac.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And Mahmutovac is where in relation to, for example,

15     Sirokaca?  More to the west, more to the east?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The east.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  I'm just trying to find it.  Is it close

18     to Colina Kapa?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could say that it was close.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I have an idea of where it is.

21             Mr. Lukic, if you want to consult with Mr. Mladic, I'll give an

22     opportunity at the end of the witness's testimony if otherwise the

23     witness would be gone and you would have missed some instructions, but --

24     so -- but you know the rule is we would then take a very short break for

25     that at the end of the testimony, but the rule is no consultations in the

Page 5601

 1     courtroom.

 2             No further questions at this moment.

 3             Mr. Weber, any questions in re-examination for the witness?

 4             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Since we have no questions either, Mr. Djozo, this

 8     concludes your testimony in this court.  I'd like to thank you very much

 9     for coming to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that

10     were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe

11     return home again.  You may follow the usher.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we adjourn, I'd like to deliver an oral

14     decision; that is, an oral decision on admission of associated exhibits

15     tendered with Witness Tucker.

16             The Chamber has examined the submissions by the parties with

17     regard to the associated exhibits tendered with witness Pyers Tucker and

18     hereby renders its decision on their admissibility.  The Chamber grants

19     the Prosecution's request for leave to reply filed on the 19th of October

20     of this year.

21             At the outset, the Chamber reiterates that its guidance in

22     relation to the tendering of evidence does not bar the admission of any

23     evidence but aims at the clearest possible presentation thereof.  The

24     Chamber recalls that the case law with regard to the admission of

25     associated exhibits pursuant to Rules 92 bis, 92 ter, and 92 quater

Page 5602

 1     establishes that documents can be admitted if they form an inseparable

 2     and indispensable part of the witness's written testimony.  This means

 3     that the witness needs to have discussed the exhibits in his testimony

 4     and that without them the transcript or the witness's written statement

 5     would be incomprehensible or of lesser probative value.  The Chamber

 6     elaborated further on its approach to associated exhibits in the

 7     additional clarification and amendment of its guidance on the 9th of

 8     July, 2012, to be found on transcript pages 530 and 531.

 9             Therefore, in cases in which the Prosecution argued that the

10     tendered exhibits provides information beyond what the witness stated, it

11     does not qualify in that respect as an exhibit which is an inseparable

12     and indispensable part of the statement or the evidence of the witness.

13     The Chamber notes that the relevance and probative value of such exhibits

14     may be considered in a different context.  Further, in cases in which the

15     tendered exhibits mainly corroborates the evidence of the witness, there

16     may not be a need to tender it, though such tendering may become

17     necessary upon a challenge of the witness's evidence in that respect if

18     the exhibit has the potential to counter that challenge.

19             The Chamber has reviewed the witness statement against the

20     background of this test for admission of associated exhibits and the

21     Chamber's guidance.  The Chamber notes that often lengthy parts of

22     associated exhibits were quoted in the witness statement, admitted as

23     Exhibit P317, which leads the Chamber to the conclusion that these were

24     the relevant sections that the Prosecution wanted to draw the Chamber's

25     attention to.  Under these circumstances, there is no need to tender the

Page 5603

 1     exhibits referred to in the witness statement.  While the Chamber

 2     considers that 11 out of the 35 tendered associated exhibits are needed

 3     to properly understand the witness statement of Pyers Tucker, it finds

 4     with regard to the remaining 24 documents tendered as associated

 5     exhibits, that the witness statement was perfectly comprehensible on its

 6     own.

 7             Lastly, the Chamber notes the Defence's submissions of not having

 8     enough time to adequately address such large numbers of associated

 9     exhibits and challenge them as part of the cross-examination.  In this

10     regard, the Chamber points out that the Defence may always ask for

11     additional time, especially if the tendered associated exhibits are

12     voluminous.

13             For the foregoing reasons, the Chamber admits only the following

14     11 documents into evidence as associated exhibits to the evidence of

15     witness Tucker:  65 ter number 3396, 3406, 9328, 9564, 11245, 11249,

16     11254, 11255, 13710, 15906, 19039A.

17             With regard to the remaining associated exhibits tendered by the

18     Prosecution, the Chamber denies admission into evidence.

19             The Registrar is invited to assign exhibit numbers, and since we

20     have sufficient time at this moment, it could be done immediately.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  First document number 3396 becomes Exhibit P553,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is already -- the decision on admission is

24     already taken, so I just follow your --

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 3406 becomes Exhibit P554.

Page 5604

 1             Document 9328 becomes Exhibit P555.

 2             Document 9564 becomes Exhibit P556.

 3             Document 11245 becomes Exhibit P557.

 4             Document 11254 becomes Exhibit P558.

 5             Document 11255 --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just -- am I right that 11249 has not been

 7     dealt with yet?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  I will repeat all the members from the beginning

 9     so that --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If you could.  We started with 3406 -- no.  We

11     started with 3396.  Then we have 3406.  Next, 9328.  Next, 9564.  Next,

12     11245.  And the one coming after that.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  11249.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And 11249 will now receive number?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  P558.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P558.  And then we move to the next one, which is --

17             THE REGISTRAR:  11254 receives number P559.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Then document 11255 becomes Exhibit P560.

20             Document 13710 becomes Exhibit P561.

21             Document 15906 becomes Exhibit P562.

22             And document 19039A becomes Exhibit P563, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And they were a minute ago admitted into

24     evidence.

25             This concludes the Chamber's decision on this matter.

Page 5605

 1             Are there any matters to be raised by the parties at this moment,

 2     also against the background of not sitting next week?

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Nothing from the Prosecution, Your Honour.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Can I consult briefly with the client, Your Honour?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may consult with the client.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing, Mr. Lukic.  Could I remind you and

 9     Mr. Mladic as well that if you speak as loud as you do, that you more or

10     less give up client-counsel privilege, because everyone is able then to

11     listen.  Again, that is a matter for yourself, but I just make that

12     observation.

13             Then we adjourn for the day, and we resume Monday the 3rd of

14     December at 9.30 in the morning most likely in this same Courtroom III.

15     And there is a risk, and we are still arranging for the scheduling of the

16     several cases, there is always a risk that we have to move to the

17     afternoon because Courtroom I is not available, and we do not know

18     exactly until when.  So this is a provisional indication of both the time

19     and the place, not the date, because we resume on the 3rd of December.

20             We stand adjourned.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day

23                           of December, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.