121203ED

Page 5612

1 --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber staff tried to get in touch with

3 Mr. Lukic and received as a response on whether he would be available to

4 start the next witness, which is RM161 to start today. The response was

5 that the Defence had been informed about him being the second witness

6 this week only late last week. We then looked at the schedules, and the

7 schedule of the 16th of November, which is more than two weeks ago,

8 already indicates Witness RM161 as the second witness. So the Chamber

9 was slightly surprised by that answer, and is inclined to continue with

10 the next witness, but would first like to give an opportunity to the

11 Defence to comment on this intention, because there seems to be some

12 confusion about when Witness RM161 was announced.

13 Mr. Stojanovic.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we contacted

15 Mr. Lukic and Mr. Mladic in the meantime, asking them what to do in this

16 case. Mr. Lukic informed me that on Friday, three days ago, while

17 talking to the Prosecution, he was informed that there had been no change

18 and that the gentleman that they planned to bring today would be

19 available on Tuesday. In the meantime, we engaged our people in the

20 field, our expert witness primarily who could prepare the questions that

21 we would like to put to the witness, and we expected in the course of

22 today to receive a report on the basis of which we could draft our final

23 version of questions for the cross-examination. But counting on this

24 being tomorrow, we still have not uploaded all the documents into e-court

25 that we were planning to use. So this is an objectively surprising

Page 5613

1 situation.

2 While speaking with Mr. Mladic, we were also informed that in

3 view of the fact that he had a visit by his close relatives on Sunday, he

4 did not have the opportunity to instruct us about the questions that we

5 planned to put to this witness.

6 Today we have scheduled a visit to Mr. Mladic late this afternoon

7 for the purpose of preparing questions for the cross-examination of the

8 witness. So this is also a surprising situation. And objectively the

9 information from Mr. Lukic, today we cannot proceed with the witness

10 because of changes that were beyond the control of the Defence and that

11 has nothing to do with the Defence. So it would not be fair to not

12 enable the Defence to prepare properly for the witness. So that is why

13 we would kindly ask to postpone the examination of this witness for

14 tomorrow as was originally planned.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to understand, Mr. Stojanovic. The

16 witness was scheduled for half an hour in chief and two and a half hours

17 in cross, the other witness which was initially scheduled for today,

18 which means that we would have started with this witness today and not

19 tomorrow. Would you agree?

20 [Defence counsel confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: And the practice is that usually less time is taken

22 for cross-examination, so ...

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The preparation for the

24 cross-examination took into account that it would take two and a half

25 hours for the witness, but in view of the fact that a half an hour of

Page 5614

1 examination-in-chief was planned, the testimony of the witness who was

2 supposed to come tomorrow would begin either today or would begin

3 tomorrow. So that was our expectation according to the conversation that

4 we had with the Prosecution. That was the way we expected things to

5 proceed.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Any further submissions by the Prosecution on this

7 matter?

8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, only to say that I would have to -- to

9 recognise that it would have been unlikely for the cross-examination for

10 RM161 to have started today based upon my understanding of the schedule.

11 It seems that we would have had some time to begin the direct, but I

12 think -- I would have to in all fairness to Mr. Stojanovic accept that it

13 would have been unlikely for him to have begun the cross-examination.

14 Your Honour, I would also announce at this time that Mr. Weber

15 has spoken to RM161 this morning, and with the Chamber's leave we would

16 move to withdraw our application for protective measures for that

17 witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Leave is granted, Mr. Groome.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to remind the parties that

21 they should always keep in the back of their mind that we might move a

22 little bit quicker than expected. And under the present circumstances,

23 it certainly should have been considered by the Defence that with a

24 programme of altogether half an hour in chief, two and a half hours

25 cross, that would make three, and then half an hour in chief for the next

Page 5615

1 witness would have been three and a half hours, so if there was a fair

2 chance that when moving quickly that cross-examination should have

3 started today. But this is something to be kept in mind and not to

4 prepare on such a tight expectation of the schedule. But whatever -- the

5 Chamber will now start hearing the evidence in chief of the next witness.

6 And let's not forget that Mr. Lukic could have expected that the

7 examination-in-chief would have been heard today, and therefore should

8 have prepared for being present, but of course there's always an

9 opportunity to re-read every single word that is spoken, every answer

10 that's given by the witness.

11 We will ask the Prosecution to call its next witness, which will

12 be Witness RM161, but since there are no protective measures, Mr. Weber.

13 MR. WEBER: Good morning, Your Honours. At this time the

14 Prosecution seeks leave to call Refik Sokolar.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted into the

16 courtroom.

17 No speaking, Mr. Mladic. Not a word. That's fine. Written

18 communication.

19 Mr. Mladic, not one more word. It has been understood what you

20 said when the Court had left before the break, your comment spoken out

21 loud, and we will not accept one more word, otherwise, you'll be removed

22 from the courtroom.

23 Mr. Weber. We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into the

24 courtroom.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 5616

1 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Good morning, Witness.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please stand. Before you give evidence,

4 the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration, the text of which

5 will be handed out to you now, and I'd like to invite you to make that

6 solemn declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 WITNESS: REFIK SOKOLAR

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.

12 Witness, you'll first be examined by Mr. Weber. Mr. Weber is

13 counsel for the Prosecution.

14 Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

15 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 Examination by Mr. Weber:

17 Q. Could you please introduce yourself to the Trial Chamber.

18 A. My name is Refik Sokolar. I was born on the

19 9th of December, 1953, in Cuniste municipality of Olovo in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Should I repeat what I said?

21 Q. Mr. Sokolar, it's okay. The trial transcript recorded the

22 information you just stated. Did you provide statements to the

23 Office of the Prosecutor in November 1995 and September 2000?

24 A. Yes. I gave two statements to investigators when they were in

25 Sarajevo.

Page 5617

1 Q. Did you have the opportunity to review both of these statements

2 prior to your testimony here today?

3 A. Yes, I did read both statements.

4 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 1 of

5 65 ter 28582 for the witness.

6 Q. Mr. Sokolar, do you recognise the document before you as the

7 statement you provided in November 1995?

8 A. Yes. This is my statement, and I can see my signature at the

9 bottom of the document.

10 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of the

11 English version of this statement.

12 Q. Mr. Sokolar, did you sign this page after the statement was read

13 back to you in the Bosnian language?

14 A. I did read this page, yes.

15 Q. And is that your signature that appears on this page?

16 A. Yes, this is my signature. But the text is in English.

17 Q. And was the statement read back to you in the Bosnian language

18 before you signed it?

19 A. Yes. The statement was read back to me in Bosnian.

20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please display page 1 of

21 65 ter 28583 for the witness.

22 Q. Mr. Sokolar, do you recognise the document before you as the

23 statement you provided in September 2000?

24 A. I see the Bosnian text on the left-hand side, but I cannot see

25 the bottom of the page where my signature should be. In the English

Page 5618

1 version I can just see a part of my signature.

2 MR. WEBER: If we could please scroll down in the English version

3 of the document.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is my signature in the

5 English version, and I can see that there is no signature in the Bosnian

6 version. So my signature is placed at the bottom of the page of the

7 English version.

8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 8 of both the

9 B/C/S and English versions of this statement.

10 Q. Mr. Sokolar, did you sign this page after this 2000 statement was

11 read back to you in the Bosnian language?

12 A. Yes. You can see that I did sign it in 2000.

13 Q. Do you have any corrections to either of your statements, either

14 the 1995 statement or the 2000 statement?

15 A. No.

16 Q. If you were asked similar questions as were posed to you when you

17 provided these statements, would you provide the same information that is

18 recorded in your statements of November 1995 and September 2000?

19 A. If they concerned any new information since then, then probably I

20 would provide that, but the answers would remain the same in relation to

21 the questions that I was responding to in the statement.

22 Q. Now that you've taken the solemn declaration in this case, do you

23 affirm the truthfulness of these two statements?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders the two

Page 5619

1 statements, 65 ter numbers 28582, and 28583. The Prosecution also

2 tenders at this time one associated exhibit. It is 65 ter 10255, which

3 is a map annotated by the witness and associated to the 1995 statement.

4 The Prosecution tenders all these exhibits as public.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has decided to have them marked for

7 identification at this very moment in the absence of Mr. Lukic so that we

8 would not take a decision. Nothing else than the absence of Mr. Lukic,

9 which took us to this position.

10 Mr. Registrar, the numbers would be?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 28582 becomes Exhibit P567.

12 65 ter 28583 becomes Exhibit P568, while 65 ter 10255 becomes

13 Exhibit P569. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: P567, P568, and P569 are marked for identification.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

16 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time seeks leave to present

17 the public summary of Mr. Sokolar's evidence.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Under those special circumstances, although

19 not yet admitted, we allow you now to read the summary.

20 MR. WEBER: Mr. Refik Sokolar was a criminal investigator in

21 Sarajevo with over ten years of investigative experience prior to the

22 war. The witness investigated shelling and sniping incidents in Sarajevo

23 during the war and participated in over 200 forensic investigations

24 concerning shelling and sniping incidents in the area of Dobrinja. The

25 witness estimates there were about one or two incidents a day in Dobrinja

Page 5620

1 for the whole period of the war. All of these investigations involved

2 civilians as victims.

3 In these cases, the witness would visit the victims at the

4 hospital and then conduct an on-site investigation. The witness

5 determined that the majority of the shells that landed in Dobrinja came

6 from the direction of which was Serb-controlled territory. He concluded

7 that they came from the areas consisting of the Theological Faculty

8 building, the JNA barracks, the Aerodromska Naselje area, and Nedzarici.

9 The majority of the shellfire based on the examination of the craters

10 caused by the shells were 60-millimetre or 80-millimetre mortars.

11 Concerning sniping incidents in the area of Dobrinja, the witness

12 identifies that sniper fire came from four or five locations. These

13 locations were from Nedzarici, the Theological Faculty building, from the

14 settlement called Ikica Kuce, and the Orthodox church of Veljine. The

15 witness established this from the investigations he carried out on those

16 civilian persons that had been shot at by the snipers. During these

17 investigations, he was able to determine the origin of fire by the place

18 where the victim was standing and the position of the surrounding

19 buildings.

20 The witness was also wounded during scheduled incident G7.

21 This completes the summary of the witness. May I proceed with

22 questions?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

24 MR. WEBER:

25 Q. Mr. Sokolar, in paragraph 21 of your 2000 statement, which is now

Page 5621

1 marked for identification as P568, you stated:

2 "The majority of Serb settlements were Lukavica, Rajlovac, and

3 Nedzarici. The other settlements which they took over were sort of

4 cleansed because the non-Serb nationalities left out of fear. These

5 areas were Vogosca, Ilidza, Hadzici, and Grbavica."

6 Could you please tell us who took over these areas where the

7 non-Serb nationalities left?

8 A. Well, at the beginning of the war, in these settlements closer to

9 the town check-points were set up, and there was no free passage through

10 the check-points. Passengers in vehicles would be checked and

11 controlled, cars would be seized, and as a result, there was much fear

12 and people didn't move around freely. They didn't enter those parts of

13 the settlements that were located behind those check-points.

14 Q. You've mentioned a couple of things. You state that this

15 happened at the beginning of the war. Could you tell us what month you

16 were referring to?

17 A. The first check-points were established on the

18 1st of March, 1992, after someone was killed in Stari Grad, in the

19 Old Town, and in the afternoon, as a result of this incident,

20 check-points were set up in town at various crossroads and that is when

21 the first check-points were set up. It was as of the 1st of March.

22 Q. Mr. Sokolar, I'd like to direct you back to my question, which

23 was related to your statement that there were four areas that were taken

24 over where non-Serb nationalities left out of fear. Who was it that took

25 over these areas where the non-Serb nationalities left? If it assists

Page 5622

1 you, I'm referring to Vogosca, Ilidza, Hadzici, and Grbavica.

2 A. These are municipalities, since the majority are Muslims, and

3 they are non-Serbs and they left these areas because they were afraid.

4 So only Serbian -- Serbs remained there and their police and army was in

5 the territory. I think the police were present. They were controlling

6 the area, and as a result the non-Serb population left these

7 municipalities.

8 Q. When did this happen?

9 A. As I said, the first check-points were set up on the

10 1st of March, and it was only at the beginning of April that action was

11 taken. I think it was at the beginning of April, and in May up to June

12 I think that all the population moved to areas in the town itself and

13 vice versa.

14 Q. Where did you reside in Sarajevo in April 1992?

15 A. I lived in my flat in Dobrinja, in the Dobrinja settlement.

16 Q. In paragraph 13 of your 2000 statement which is marked for

17 identification as P568, you state:

18 "There was a period of two days when there was no activity,

19 shooting, or sniping by the Serbs when I was able to get to work."

20 Where were you working at this time?

21 A. My headquarters was in Novi Grad municipality, Pavle Goranin

22 settlement. My flat was in Dobrinja. I couldn't go to work for one week

23 because there was shooting at the check-point at the exit by Dobrinja 5.

24 And on the 12th and 13th of May, 1992, it was calm and there were columns

25 of civilians walking over the hill to the town, and I went to the

Page 5623

1 headquarters where I worked.

2 Q. In the next sentence you state:

3 "I stayed at the office for about two months, and after that I

4 went back to the area where I lived and already a reserve police force

5 had been set up."

6 What is the reason that you stayed at your office for about two

7 months?

8 A. Since Dobrinja was cut off, under blockade, and I couldn't return

9 to the flat that I lived in - I lived in town with a colleague and a

10 relative of mine for those two months - and when it was necessary to

11 expect to work in the reserve station in Dobrinja, well, since I have a

12 flat, my superiors sent me to Dobrinja to perform those duties. And that

13 was done. That happened in mid-July.

14 Q. You've mentioned that Dobrinja was cut off. How was Dobrinja cut

15 off?

16 A. At the exit from Dobrinja, at the foot of the hill there's a

17 concrete wall, and below the street, in the Nedzarici settlement, there

18 are low houses, and from those houses snipers -- or perhaps not even

19 snipers used automatic weapons and opened fire on anyone who tried to use

20 that road, on anyone who walked down that road or who drove down that

21 road, and that is the only route to town, the only exit that leads to

22 town.

23 Q. Did Dobrinja continue to be cut off during the course of the war,

24 between 1992 and 1995, at any times?

25 A. In 1992 up until the middle of the year, for a month or two I

Page 5624

1 think it was under a blockade, and then there was protection in the form

2 of concrete blocks, and vehicles would pass by as well as people on foot

3 at great risk. And in 1994 and 1995, I believe that UNPROFOR set up a

4 form of protection, so it was possible to move towards the town, in the

5 direction of the town.

6 Q. Were there any graveyards in Dobrinja?

7 A. Before the war only in the neighbourhood that we called Mahala

8 where the houses are quite small. It was next to a mosque. That's where

9 there was a graveyard. And the other citizens would be buried in the

10 town in Bare Vlakovo, Kosevo, Alfakovac -- Kovac. And there were a

11 number of graveyards in the town itself but there was only a small

12 graveyard by the mosque in Dobrinja.

13 Q. During the war do you know where people who were killed by sniper

14 fire or shelling in Dobrinja were buried or how they were buried?

15 A. Yes. There were four or five locations, Kvadrant C5 between

16 residential buildings. Five or six people were buried there next to a

17 garage in the street called Oslobodilaca Sarajeva. There were large

18 garages there. And then others were buried in Emila Zole Street, and

19 there were people who were buried in the park as well. When it was

20 possible, these bodies were exhumed and they were buried where their

21 families wanted them to be buried.

22 Q. Was there any reason why these people were buried at these

23 locations during the war and not taken to any of the graveyards?

24 A. This was at the beginning of 1992 when Dobrinja was under

25 blockade and it wasn't possible to get out of Dobrinja.

Page 5625

1 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 4 of

2 65 ter 26177. It's a photograph.

3 Q. Mr. Sokolar, do you recognise what is depicted in this

4 photograph?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you please tell us what's in this photo?

7 A. In the background you can see a metal fence. It's the garage

8 fence. It's a garage for 2- or 300 vehicles. It's a common garage on

9 two storeys, and that is the garage's fence, and right next to the fence

10 people were buried as can be seen in the photograph. This is between

11 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street and alongside the garage. So it is at the

12 back of the Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street.

13 Q. Does this photograph accurately depict this location as it

14 appeared during the war?

15 A. Yes, but this railing -- well, you can't see a footpath by this

16 railing to the right, but the graves were slightly slanting, the ones

17 that one can see by the garage.

18 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders this photograph

19 into evidence. There are multiple photographs uploaded as part of the

20 65 ter, but we're just tendering this one at this time as a public

21 exhibit.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Have you separately uploaded this one?

23 MR. WEBER: We have not yet, Your Honour. We can do that during

24 the --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We need to have a separate 65 ter number isn't

Page 5626

1 it? Would there be any objection against the ones uploaded separately as

2 against the admission of this?

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would suggest

4 that we only mark this for identification once this photograph has been

5 separated from the collection.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could already a number be reserved for it, not yet

7 assigned to it because there's nothing to attach it to. Mr. Registrar,

8 which number would you reserve for this photograph once separated?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Number P570, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That number is reserved.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. WEBER:

13 Q. Mr. Sokolar, I just have a few more questions for you. In

14 paragraph 11 of your 1995 statement which is marked for identification as

15 P567, you state:

16 "Another case happened on the 16 June 1994 when an elderly man

17 was shot in the right arm. In this specific case the victim was crossing

18 the street."

19 What was the name of the street that this elderly man was

20 crossing when he was shot?

21 A. Omladinskih Radnih Brigada, but I don't have the statement here

22 before me to see whether that is the location concerned.

23 Q. Do you recall where this shooting occurred in relation to the

24 hospital in Dobrinja?

25 A. I think this person was coming from Dobrinja and heading towards

Page 5627

1 the other part of the Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street towards the avenue,

2 and I think that he was crossing a field, a -- or, rather, an area where

3 there was grass.

4 Q. Do you know where this field or area with grass was located in

5 location to the Dobrinja hospital?

6 A. It was to the east.

7 Q. Approximately how far?

8 A. Perhaps 40 metres away.

9 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no further questions

10 for this witness at this time.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: In view of the situation, the Chamber would like to

14 take a short break to further consider how to proceed, but we'll only do

15 that after we've heard from the Defence what they would be able to do at

16 this moment, even if they could not complete a cross-examination, whether

17 there was any chance to start cross-examination.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think so, Your Honour,

19 for the reasons that I have already set forth.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any information about when Mr. Lukic could

21 be present in court?

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to our

23 information, he could be here at 1300 hours, at 1.00 p.m., but with your

24 leave, we will contact him in the course of this brief break.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 5628

1 JUDGE ORIE: We take the usual break of 20 minutes, and we'll

2 hear further from the Defence after that break. We'll resume at

3 20 minutes to 12.00. But first the witness could be escorted out of the

4 courtroom.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes to 12.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.21 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.49 a.m.

9 [The accused not present]

10 JUDGE ORIE: I put on the record that Mr. Mladic is not present

11 in court. The Chamber was informed that Mr. Mladic had requested his

12 blood pressure to be measured, and when the in-house doctor approached

13 him to measure his blood pressure, he refused this doctor to measure his

14 blood pressure and insisted on the UNDU doctor to do that.

15 The Chamber has considered it and interprets this as a waiver to

16 come to court.

17 If our factual information is inaccurate, the Chamber would like

18 to be informed.

19 I hear nothing from the Defence at this moment, which therefore

20 confirms that the information was accurate.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to inform you

24 that Mr. Mladic did have his blood pressure measured during the break by

25 people trained to measure blood pressure, that they established that the

Page 5629

1 blood pressure in both arms was very much above the normal blood pressure

2 values. It was taken twice because we wanted to check that the

3 measurements were precise and correct. However, when we established that

4 for the second time the blood pressure was extremely high and we could

5 tell by the way he looked, the doctor came and he's speaking with

6 Mr. Mladic, and Mr. Mladic stated that he does not wish to be toyed with

7 in this way any more. He insists that he be examined by the doctors who

8 regularly examine him in the Detention Unit and not anyone else. So his

9 blood pressure was measured twice by people trained to take the blood

10 pressure, and the values that were measured were very, very much higher

11 than the normal values.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us the values, Mr. Stojanovic?

13 Mr. Stojanovic, could you give us the values that were measured?

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I state that in public? If

15 so, then it was 190 by 105 the first time it was measured, and the second

16 time it was measured the values were 190 and 106.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Mr. Mladic then refused to have his blood

18 pressure be measured by the doctor -- the in-house doctor; is that

19 correct?

20 [Defence counsel confer]

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] He insisted that this be done by

22 the doctor who is treating him at the Detention Unit or that it's done

23 here in the courtroom, that his blood pressure be measured publicly here

24 in the courtroom, and the reason he wanted this done was because it was

25 done by a stethoscope, so he could not read the values. The first two

Page 5630

1 times the blood pressure was measured he could actually read the values

2 by himself and this is where this mistrust comes from.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So he refused that and insisted another doctor

4 to do it.

5 Let's look at how to proceed. Have you been in touch with

6 Mr. Lukic? Have you been further in touch with Mr. Lukic?

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, and we stand

8 by our position that at this point in time the Defence is not in a

9 position to cross-examine this witness in view of the schedule that was

10 announced and the timetable, and we believe that this is a situation in

11 which the Defence finds itself without any fault of its own. And for

12 that reason we're unable to proceed right now with the cross-examination

13 by Mr. Lukic.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has considered the present situation.

16 The Chamber does not accept that even cross-examination could not be

17 started by Mr. Lukic. We do accept that Mr. Lukic was not prepared

18 immediately.

19 The Chamber will take a break. We will then resume at 12.45,

20 preferably Mr. Lukic being present. If not, we'll deal with a few

21 procedural matters so that Mr. Lukic can arrive at 1.00 and then can

22 start the cross-examination, and if there are any further consultations

23 needed to complete the cross-examination, ample time will be there this

24 afternoon and tomorrow morning to complete those consultations and then

25 to conclude the cross-examination of the witness.

Page 5631

1 We take a break and resume at 12.45.

2 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

4 [The accused present]

5 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber was informed that Mr. Mladic was briefly

6 examined by the doctor present in this house after he had consulted with

7 the UNDU doctor and that the result is that nothing was revealed which

8 would disallow Mr. Mladic to follow the proceedings. Therefore, we'll

9 proceed.

10 Mr. Lukic, I can imagine that you are a bit surprised this

11 morning.

12 MR. LUKIC: Indeed, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does accept that you were not present,

14 of course. The Chamber also felt that at least the beginning of

15 cross-examination should be possible because the Chamber expects the

16 parties always to anticipate on possible fallout of witnesses, and the

17 Chamber would not have decided that you should finish your

18 cross-examination today so as to give you a further opportunity to

19 consult whomever you would like to consult, but we'd like to start with

20 the cross-examination, Mr. Lukic.

21 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

22 I think Mr. Mladic is seeking the attention of counsel.

23 Meanwhile, I could address a short matter, the MFI P6

24 Security Council Resolution. Mr. Groome, the Chamber has repeatedly

25 reminded the Prosecution about this document. Issue has been pending for

Page 5632

1 almost five months now even though it should be a matter which can be

2 resolved within minutes. The Prosecution is given until Wednesday, the

3 5th of December, that's the day after tomorrow, to provide the Chamber

4 and the parties with the correct version of this document.

5 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I apologise for this oversight.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Another matter is MFI D48, where a translation was

7 missing. The document was MFI'd due to the fact that the translation was

8 missing and that translation has been received in the meantime and the

9 Registry seems to already have attached it. D48 is therefore admitted

10 into evidence.

11 [The witness takes the stand]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may start your cross-examination.

13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Sokolar.

16 A. Good day.

17 Q. Can we start with the cross-examination?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. First, I'd like to put some general questions to you about

20 Sarajevo. It was divided along ethnic lines after the conflict broke

21 out; isn't that correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And the circumstances were such in Sarajevo that you were forced

24 to do work that you hadn't previously done; is that correct, too?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 5633

1 Q. From the clinic in Dobrinja -- you would be summoned from the

2 clinic in Dobrinja if someone was wounded, and you would go there and

3 speak to the wounded, but not always; is that correct?

4 A. It's correct that having been informed by the clinic in Dobrinja,

5 I would go to the clinic. We took the personal details from the wounded

6 person. If the person could communicate, if the person wasn't seriously

7 wounded, if that was the case we would briefly speak to the person about

8 the part of the body that had been wounded.

9 Q. You would sometimes go to the site itself if possible, and

10 sometimes you wouldn't go there; is that correct?

11 A. If the site where the incident occurred was still an exposed

12 site, if it was still coming under fire from snipers or from other

13 weapons, we would go as far as possible. We would try to get as close as

14 possible to determine the nature of the site, but we would always be

15 concerned for our own safety.

16 Q. You personally didn't carry out any criminal investigations. For

17 an investigation to be carried out it was necessary for an

18 investigative -- an investigating judge to be present and a team of

19 experts from the centre of the town; is that correct?

20 A. I have already explained this in my statement. In serious cases

21 of shelling, in the cases of serious incidents when there were quite a

22 lot of dead --

23 Q. Just a minute. I do apologise. I'm asking you about the cases

24 when you went to the sites. So not such serious incidents when the

25 investigating judge wasn't present and when these experts weren't

Page 5634

1 present, in such cases it was not a criminal investigation that was

2 carried out; isn't that correct?

3 A. That's correct. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. I will now read something out to you in English so

5 that I don't misinterpret it, and I'd just like you tell to me whether

6 you stand by that part of your statement.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to see 1D448 on the

8 screen.

9 Q. For your information, this is the transcript of your testimony in

10 the Galic case.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we need to see page 7 -- 3574.

12 Page 3574 of the transcript. 13th of February, 2002, is the date.

13 Q. [In English]:

14 "Q. Do you know approximately how frequently you went to the

15 hospital during 1994?

16 "A. I couldn't really say. Quite a lot of time has passed since

17 then, six years ago. So I couldn't tell you the exact number, but there

18 were several cases."

19 [Interpretation] Today do you confirm what you said in your

20 testimony?

21 A. You say several cases in the course of one day. There were

22 sometimes two or three incidents. Sometimes four or five days would

23 pass. There would be a truce, there would be no incidents, and there

24 would be no on-site investigations if we can call them like that.

25 Q. I do have to inform you of the following: I didn't say this, you

Page 5635

1 did, and that is why I read it out, to make sure that I didn't

2 misinterpret it. That is why I asked you whether today you stand by this

3 testimony that you gave in the case against General Galic, or do you not

4 stand by it?

5 A. I stand by it.

6 Q. The largest part of the area of Dobrinja was under ABiH, whereas

7 the VRS only had Dobrinja 4 and part of Dobrinja 1; is that correct?

8 A. The VRS had the Aerodrom area in addition to those parts of

9 Dobrinja, and the Aerodrom settlement is to the west of Dobrinja, it's

10 the western part of Dobrinja, and they also held Nedzarici to the west.

11 Q. I asked you about Dobrinja, so we'll have to clear this up. The

12 Aerodrom settlement and Nedzarici are not parts of Dobrinja - is that

13 correct? - or are they?

14 A. Nedzarici isn't part of it but the Aerodromska settlement in my

15 opinion is part of the Dobrinja area.

16 Q. Very well. So Dobrinja 2, Dobrinja 3, and Dobrinja 5, and part

17 of Dobrinja 1 were in the hands of the ABiH, the

18 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Whenever you went to the site you compiled an official note;

21 isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes, I did draft an official note.

23 Q. And on each occasion you reported to your superiors about the

24 case; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. A dispatch would be written to inform them, and an official

Page 5636

1 note would also be drafted. Those were the working methods that were

2 applied.

3 Q. If there was no official note, did that mean that you did not go

4 to the site?

5 A. There were two other policemen who worked in addition to myself,

6 but they were from the reserve force. Sometimes if I was absent they

7 would go to the site, but I think it was necessary to draft an official

8 note for all the incidents. Every note should be forwarded to the

9 superiors in the headquarters. Those were the guidelines that had to be

10 followed.

11 Q. Is it correct that you tried to determine the origin of the fire,

12 the location from which a shell arrived on the basis of the conversations

13 you would have with the wounded and on the basis of your visits to the

14 site or to areas in the vicinity of the site?

15 A. I was never content to limit myself to the statements given by

16 the wounded. The wounded would only tell me about the bearing of the

17 projectile and about where the person had been hit. Whenever it was

18 possible, however, we went to the site. Sometimes we went to areas close

19 to the site and sometimes the site itself.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could I inquire into one matter.

21 Mr. Lukic, you earlier asked whether the witness stood by his testimony

22 in Galic. I may have missed the point. Was it about the word "several"

23 that you were mainly seeking, and that's the reason why you used the

24 English quote?

25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 5637

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then I think since the word "several" in

2 English has several meanings, we should then explore that further.

3 When you said in the Galic case that there were several cases

4 that you went there, did you mean to say not many but just more than two

5 occasions, or did you refer to several a day? Could you give us a bit of

6 a better explanation as what you meant by "several"? Because my

7 dictionary tells me that "several" has more meanings, one of them being

8 more than two but fewer than many in number. Is that what you wanted to

9 say, or did you want to say that there were several -- there were

10 separate cases where you went to the hospital? Could you further

11 explain?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that on some days people

13 would be wounded as a result of the shelling, and in addition there would

14 be two cases of sniper fire. People would be wounded by fire from

15 automatic weapons. So on some days I co-operated closely with the rest

16 of the team when there was shelling, and there was also sniper fire.

17 Sometimes there were two or three cases, sometimes, as I have said -- I

18 provided examples, three incidents would occur in the course of one day.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Which would then mean that over a year it would be

20 more than a hundred, less than a hundred? Approximately.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll repeat what I said. Sometimes

22 the situation was calm. There'd be a week or even a more lengthy period

23 when there was no shelling, no sniper fire. It was calm. So in the

24 course of the day, sometimes there would be two or three incidents and

25 sometimes there were periods when there was no shelling at all. So as

Page 5638

1 for the total number of times I went to the sites with other members from

2 the team I couldn't really say how many such cases there were, but I

3 think that during the three-year period there were about 200 visits made

4 to the sites that related to these incidents.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this clarification.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. [Interpretation] I'd now like to ask you about the surroundings

9 that you worked in at the time, and as a member of the police, you were

10 also a member of the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, as per establishment, but I had a policeman's badge.

13 Q. With regard to the positions of the warring factions in Dobrinja,

14 what was the distance between them?

15 A. I think that the closest demarcation line in the entire Sarajevo

16 battle-field was in the Aerodrom settlement. There was a block of

17 buildings there, and if the Bosnian Serbs were there -- and in the other

18 block of buildings there was the ABiH. So there was only a street, the

19 width of which was between 8 and 10 metres, divided them.

20 Q. Do you know that within the police a certain number of sniper

21 rifles were issued?

22 A. As for sniper weapons, I'm not aware of them having been

23 distributed, but -- well, not in the police force, but amongst other

24 members of the ABiH I saw M-48 rifles, automatic rifles, and so on and so

25 forth, but I didn't notice any sniper rifles.

Page 5639

1 Q. You didn't see the police with sniper rifles, or you didn't see

2 troops bearing sniper rifles?

3 A. I didn't see sniper rifles that were in the possession of the

4 police or in possession of the troops, the army, either.

5 Q. Did you go to the confrontation line?

6 A. In my previous statement I already said that I didn't have any

7 responsibility for the troops, and even when there were incidents on the

8 lines, when someone was wounded, if it was an ABiH member, I didn't go

9 there. I didn't carry out on-site investigations to those parts of the

10 confrontation line or at those parts of the confrontation line.

11 Q. Perhaps my question was not put very well. I'm not asking

12 whether you carried out any investigations but whether you went to the

13 lines in order to observe snipers there.

14 A. No, I didn't go to the confrontation lines.

15 Q. You've heard about the Special Police Unit that was part of the

16 MUP, the Ministry of the Interior; isn't that correct?

17 A. If you have in mind the Special Police Unit, the special MUP unit

18 under Vikic's command, when the MUP was divided, it remained as a special

19 unit in the MUP of the federation in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Q. Since we're dealing with Vikic, did his men have any snipers?

21 A. I'm not aware of them using sniper rifles or snipers.

22 Q. Were there any other special units?

23 A. Within the MUP there was another special unit called Rasta --

24 called Lasta. I don't know if there were any other special units.

25 Q. So we have Vikic's men, Lasta. Have you heard of the Seve group?

Page 5640

1 A. I've already spoken about the Seve. It was only at the end of

2 the war that I found out through the media of the existence of the Seve,

3 because there was some sort of campaign, a settling of accounts, but in

4 the course of the war I never heard of them. It was only at the end of

5 the war, after the war had ended that I found out about the existence of

6 the Seve.

7 Q. You've heard about Juka Prazina; isn't that correct?

8 A. I have. I'd like to tell you why I'm waiting. I was told to

9 wait for the end of the interpretation, so that is why I'm waiting.

10 Yes, I did know Juka Prazina. Before the war he'd been taken to

11 the police station, brought in to the police station in which I worked.

12 Q. After the beginning of the war, he was in charge of a police

13 unit; isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes, I don't think he was in charge of it. The members weren't

15 members of the police, but in a certain sense they had the same badge

16 that we had, the active-duty policemen or other reserve forces. This was

17 for a short period of time in the course of the summer of 1992, but in

18 terms of the establishment, I really don't know who he was responsible

19 for, who was under the command of Prazina. It wasn't just a group. It

20 was a fairly large unit.

21 Q. And Juka was in Dobrinja with that unit of his; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. When I came in July, I could already see members wearing

23 the same badge, I mean the police badge, and they belonged to

24 Juka Prazina's group.

25 Q. In your work did you ever investigate and encounter any criminal

Page 5641

1 acts committed in Dobrinja by members of Juka Prazina's unit?

2 A. I think that there were considerable problems with the guys who

3 belonged to Juka Prazina's group before I arrived, and the very fact that

4 they had the badges meant that they belonged to the members of the police

5 or the army, and in my work I never investigated crimes that related to

6 the police or the army. I investigated crimes of the sort of thefts,

7 robberies, accidents that were committed by civilians. The crimes that I

8 investigated were committed by civilians.

9 Q. Well, it remains unclear still. These members of Juka Prazina's

10 group you say belonged to the police or to the army. Do you know if they

11 were members of the police or of the army?

12 A. I don't know exactly whom they belonged to by establishment, but

13 they did have the same badges that we had as members of the police force.

14 Q. Let us come back now to this -- what you said, that you

15 investigated only criminal acts that were committed by civilians. But

16 you said, and this was not recorded in the transcript, you were

17 explaining something about underaged persons and women. Could you please

18 explain that a little bit further?

19 A. What I wanted to say was that I was in charge of minors and

20 civilians who did not belong to any armed formations or did not belong to

21 the B and H Army. I was entrusted with investigations of those crimes.

22 If I encountered any others, I would have to report them to the military

23 security organs for them to process.

24 Q. So a theft or a robbery would take place, and then you would

25 begin your work, and you would begin by assuming that the person who

Page 5642

1 perpetrated the act was an unidentified person. This would be how you

2 would begin; correct? You say then when you find out that this was a

3 member of the military, you would then hand that person over to the

4 military organs for processing.

5 My question is this: Did you ever encounter in your work that a

6 crime in Dobrinja was committed by any member of the group that was led

7 by Juka Prazina? Was anyone killed, robbed?

8 A. When we're talking about killing in Dobrinja, which would be

9 perpetrated by members or by citizens, I was still not dealing with those

10 acts. It would be something that would be investigated by members from

11 the homicide department. Sometimes those colleagues from that department

12 would ask us to help them in their work.

13 Q. We're going in circles again. When you called them to help you

14 or when you informed them that they were supposed to come to the scene

15 because of a killing, were you ever present at the scene? Or did you

16 have to ever call your colleagues from the homicide department when you

17 were dealing with an act, a criminal act, committed by any member of the

18 formation led by Juka Prazina? Or was it the case that you never

19 encountered any such act?

20 A. Well, I cannot remember anything like that now. There were

21 periods when people or those minors belonged to a group and then they

22 would be transferred or were not a member of the army at that time. I

23 really don't understand. I cannot recall any such cases. I cannot

24 recall working on any such cases.

25 Q. At the time, the 5th Motorised Brigade was also located in

Page 5643

1 Dobrinja; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know where their headquarters were in relation to the

4 police station?

5 A. Members of the army were located on the outskirts of Dobrinja.

6 They had their smaller headquarters there, all the smaller units. I

7 didn't have access there. The command was somewhere within Dobrinja. It

8 was a little bit farther away from the section or sector where the police

9 station was located.

10 Q. Deeper in terms of what?

11 A. We were located towards the east. They didn't have any special

12 building that was allocated as the headquarters. It was a smaller

13 building, a ground floor building in Oktobarska Revolucije Street. The

14 other smaller HQs were deployed all around the outskirts of Dobrinja but

15 I don't really have information as to where.

16 Q. Because Dobrinja is divided into numbers, could you tell us which

17 Dobrinja you are talking about?

18 A. I'm talking about Dobrinja 2.

19 Q. Did you know how those outlying areas where the smaller units

20 were located maintained communication with the main HQ?

21 A. Since Dobrinja is a smaller neighbourhood spread over an area of

22 some two square kilometres, I don't know how they maintained their

23 communications. Perhaps by physically going to the commands or

24 headquarters or by using some other form of communication, radio

25 communications. I really -- I don't know.

Page 5644

1 Q. And you had about 50 policemen; right?

2 A. Well, it ranged from 50 to 60.

3 Q. The police reserve force mobilised in early 1992. That's

4 correct, isn't it? It was mobilised in early 1992.

5 A. I think that the reserve force was mobilised in late 1991, in

6 November or December.

7 Q. When they were mobilised, the reserve policemen were issued with

8 automatic weapons; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the regular police force in early 1992 or late 1991 also were

11 issued automatic weaponry; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. And the uniforms that the policemen in Dobrinja wore, now we will

14 focus on the period after the conflict broke out. These uniforms were --

15 varied. Some wore civilian clothing. Some wore the old blue police

16 uniform.

17 A. Yes. It was not all the same. It was different for everyone.

18 Somebody wore a summer police uniform. It all depended on what the

19 members of the reserve force had. The -- the uniforms that they wore

20 were different.

21 Q. And some policemen wore civilian clothing; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then some of them wore some items of uniform and some items

24 of civilian clothing; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. Some had a police jacket. Some only had a shirt. Some had

Page 5645

1 the trousers. Some just wore civilian clothes.

2 Q. And how many reserve policemen were there?

3 A. In the Dobrinja settlement?

4 Q. Yes, in the Dobrinja settlement.

5 A. I think that in Dobrinja there were only three or four active

6 policemen. A number were mobilised from among retired policemen who had

7 retired before the war, and the rest were drafted from among the civilian

8 population.

9 Q. And do you know how many members of the Bosnia and Herzegovina

10 army were deployed to positions in Dobrinja?

11 A. I don't even know the approximate number, but I know that in all

12 the neighbourhoods there were smaller units which in the beginning before

13 the TO was renamed as the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army -- and there was a

14 number of army members in those units, but I don't know how many.

15 Q. But today you said that you mainly dealt with women and minors

16 and that that was what your work was and that all the other adult male

17 population from Dobrinja were members of the army and that they did not

18 fall under your responsibility.

19 A. Well, there were numerous elderly people above the age of 50 or

20 60 who did not belong to the B and H Army, who were not on active duty.

21 There was other personnel, people who did not belong to the army, who

22 worked in civilian protection services and so on, and they were not

23 members of the B and H Army. I think that the population of Dobrinja,

24 the civilian population, had dropped by one-half in comparison to the

25 pre-war period, so I don't really know the numbers.

Page 5646

1 Q. But we can agree, can we not, that all the able-bodied men joined

2 some type of formation, either the military or the police or the civilian

3 protection units, the Territorial Defence from the beginning; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. These people would spend a period of time on the front. Where

7 did they sleep? Did they sleep on the front lines? Did they have

8 barracks? Were there shifts when they would then go home? How did this

9 function? You saw how this functioned in Dobrinja, which you were

10 covering. Can you tell us how this worked?

11 A. I think that members of the B and H Army who were mobilised into

12 the army worked in those areas where they more or less lived so that once

13 they would complete their defence duties, their shift, their guard

14 shifts, they would return to their apartments. I didn't go to the line

15 of separation, but perhaps they had some kind of accommodation that had

16 been converted from apartments.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last

18 sentence.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last sentence.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the outlying buildings in the

21 Dobrinja neighbourhood that were on the separation line were emptied of

22 their inhabitants, and they were transferred to the interior areas of

23 Dobrinja. So if somebody was living in an apartment or -- that was

24 facing the lines where Republika Srpska was located, they would then be

25 transferred to a different area of Dobrinja that was more to the interior

Page 5647

1 of the neighbourhood.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Are you telling us that such apartments where the

3 inhabitants had left were used or could be used as accommodation for

4 those at the front lines? Is that your testimony, or did I misunderstand

5 you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. You -- you understood me

7 correctly. The residents were moved out, and the B and H Army used them

8 for billeting and for other purposes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Were you able to see throughout the time you

12 were in Dobrinja small groups of armed men moving around?

13 A. Not armed men. People were moving around in groups. I knew some

14 people who were members of the army, but they did not carry weapons on

15 them when they were moving around in Dobrinja.

16 Q. Were you able to recognise members of the

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina Army and tell them apart from members of the

18 police? Could you tell them apart by their uniforms? Was there a

19 difference?

20 A. No, because they were also wearing civilian clothing in the

21 beginning, not wearing complete uniforms. Later during the war, the

22 camouflage uniforms appeared, and then both army and police members wore

23 those camouflage uniforms.

24 Q. And later when these uniforms were issued, did you see these

25 groups of uniformed men moving around in Dobrinja with weapons or without

Page 5648

1 weapons?

2 A. I would see groups of two or three men in camouflage uniforms

3 moving around Dobrinja without weapons.

4 Q. At the time when you were investigating robberies, thefts, and so

5 on, you said that you were not able to interview members of the

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina Army; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is. I would conduct my investigations until the moment I

8 found out that it was a member of the army, and then if the person had

9 been brought in or if during the course of my work I found out that the

10 person was a member of the army, I would hand them over to the military

11 for processing.

12 Q. And then you were not able to follow up to see what would then

13 happen to that particular case; is that correct?

14 A. No. In the beginning, in 1992 before everything was set up, we

15 did not really have co-operation that was all that good.

16 Q. And as for the broader area of Novi Grad, did you know where the

17 units were located? Were there barracks there, or were there commercial

18 premises, apartments where they were located?

19 A. I cannot remember what happened with the Jusuf Dzonlic barracks,

20 which was in the Novi Grad sector after the JNA moved out, other than the

21 Viktor Bubanj barracks, which was used as a detention unit, the Nedzarici

22 area did not have any other barracks, and this barracks, the

23 Viktor Bubanj, later came to be under the control of the

24 Army of Republika Srpska.

25 Q. So what are you telling us? Where were the units located if