Page 6240
1 Thursday, 13 December 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 12.40 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I'd like to deal with one preliminary, procedural matter,
11 quickly.
12 Yesterday the Chamber has received a filing of the Defence
13 requesting an enlargement of an additional 14 days to respond to the
14 Prosecution motion of the 29th of November. That was the Prosecution's
15 motion for reconsideration of decision denying admission of 24 associated
16 exhibits regarding RM514, or, alternatively, granting the admission of
17 certain associated exhibits from the bar table, or certification.
18 The current deadline for the Defence to respond to the
19 Prosecution's motion is this week, today, Thursday, the 13th of December,
20 and in light of the upcoming winter recess, the Chamber hereby grants the
21 request for an extension of time.
22 Then for the witness to enter the courtroom, we have to move
23 into -- private session would do. It's the same as closed session here.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 6241
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1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 We'll take a break. We will resume ten minutes past 3.00. Is
6 the next witness ready? And is the Prosecution ready to call him?
7 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours. I was not sure when Your Honours
8 would want to deal with the issue of the admissibility of the amalgamated
9 statement, pursuant to -- or the associated exhibits pursuant to 92 ter.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we could ...
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We can do it now.
13 Mr. Shin.
14 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours, in the -- the issues have been
15 reduced over the course of the witness's testimony. I would posit that
16 if my understanding at this point - and Ms. Stewart will certainly
17 correct me if I'm incorrect - is that we have three exhibits that have
18 not -- let me say it this way.
19 I have three exhibits that have not been objected to by the
20 Defence that I would tender as associated exhibits, although if
21 Your Honours would like to deal with the amalgamated statement first that
22 may also be appropriate.
23 JUDGE ORIE: For the amalgamated statement, I think we -- are
24 there any further submissions to be made, Mr. Ivetic?
25 MR. IVETIC: There are not. They are contained in our written
Page 6284
1 filing of the 29th of November, 2012.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing to be added to that. The amalgamated
3 statement which has received, I think, P628, if my recollection serves me
4 well, is admitted into evidence, under seal.
5 MR. SHIN: If I may, Your Honours, turning to the associated
6 exhibits. My -- by my count there are three exhibits that have not been
7 objected to which, first, the Prosecution would tender into evidence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: If would you take them one by one.
9 MR. SHIN: Yes. The first is 65 ter 10823.
10 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of objections, Madam Registrar, it
11 would receive number ...
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours before the number is assigned, the
13 list of documents has a number of 10832. Can counsel clarify the last
14 two digits.
15 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry it is actually 10823. 10832, I believe, was
16 tendered under seal just shortly ago.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: In that case the number will be Exhibit P633.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Any need to have it under seal?
20 MR. SHIN: Let me just check my chart, Your Honours. Yes, this
21 one is under seal.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P633 is admitted under seal. Next one?
23 MR. SHIN: Also no objection on 65 ter 10824. So the Prosecution
24 would tender that under seal.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And that, Madam Registrar, would be P634, I take it.
Page 6285
1 THE REGISTRAR: Indeed, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Next one?
3 MR. SHIN: Also no objection --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal, is admitted under seal.
5 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 65 ter 1150, the Prosecution would tender that under seal.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. IVETIC: Perhaps there's an error. I don't see that one on
9 the list.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We have a lot of documents starting with 1150, but
11 another number follows, Mr. Shin.
12 MR. SHIN: Perhaps I misread the number. It is at the top of the
13 third page of our exhibit list which is 11510.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is clear now. And that should be under
15 seal? No, perhaps not.
16 MR. SHIN: Yes, I'm sorry, that one is also tendered under seal.
17 My apologies, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And the specific reason for that?
19 MR. SHIN: If you would please bear with me for one moment.
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the --
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it's admitted under seal. P635 is
25 admitted under seal.
Page 6286
1 MR. SHIN: And so not addressing those documents that have
2 already been admitted or are otherwise withdrawn, that, by our count,
3 leaves four documents. And I would take them one at a time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so and could we keep in mind that if
5 there's any confidentiality in them we should return in private session.
6 MR. SHIN: Yes, absolutely, Your Honours. I will be tendering
7 some of these under seal, so perhaps to be safe --
8 JUDGE ORIE: That in itself is not a reason to move into private
9 session but it may be better to do it.
10 We move into private session.
11 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours. I didn't --
12 [Private session]
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5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Shin.
8 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry. It was an issue regarding redactions, so
9 perhaps I'll reserve that for my colleague to raise [overlapping
10 speakers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, what you could -- what you could do is try to
12 agree with Mr. Ivetic on further redactions and then inform the Chamber
13 if there's any agreement between the parties.
14 We will take a break, and we will resume at 20 minutes -- at 25
15 minutes past 3.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.01 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 3.26 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: For the next witness, will it be you, Ms. Bolton,
19 who will examine the witness?
20 MS. BOLTON: It will be, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, since the same protective measures
22 apply, we have to move into private session.
23 [Private session]
24 (redacted)
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Page 6291
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9 [Open session]
10 MS. BOLTON: I'll be --
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 MS. BOLTON: I'm going to be requesting a document, and I would
14 ask that it not be broadcast publicly, please, Your Honour, and that
15 would be 65 ter 28597.
16 Examination by Ms. Bolton:
17 Q. Sir, in the document before you, do you see your name?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 MS. BOLTON: Your Honours, could that be tendered, please, as the
20 next Prosecution exhibit under seal.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that your date of birth as it
22 appears, is correct as well, or ...
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Until further notice.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 28597 will be Exhibit P639,
Page 6294
1 under seal.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under seal.
3 MS. BOLTON: May we move into private session, please,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
6 [Private session]
7 (redacted)
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Page 6299
1 (redacted)
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5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Just to respond briefly to the last words spoken in
8 private session, no.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. BOLTON: Your Honours, the witness was in the city of
11 Sarajevo in 1993. He observed SRK shelling of the civilian population of
12 the city. During the first three months of the year, the average number
13 of shells impacting the city was approximately 1200 per day. Some of the
14 shelling was random and did not appear to have any military purpose. At
15 times, the shelling appeared to be in retaliation for events taking place
16 outside of Sarajevo.
17 On the 21st of March, 1993, approximately 2400 shells were fired
18 into Sarajevo, including 400 shells on the old town alone. The witness
19 observed that the attack appeared to be in retaliation for an ABiH
20 offensive launched against VRS positions on the Pale road, in an apparent
21 attempt to sever the VRS supply lines. The witness also recalls the
22 shelling of a football match on the 1st of June, 1993, in Dobrinja. A
23 crater analysis determined the shells were likely fired by SRK troops at
24 Lukavica barracks.
25 The witness observed that civilians were targeted by VRS snipers.
Page 6300
1 Civilians erected makeshift protective barriers at junctions throughout
2 the city to protect against sniper fire. Civilians also endeavoured to
3 flee from Sarajevo across the airport runway which was the only means of
4 leaving or entering the city at that time, and they were also subjected
5 to VRS sniper fire. Approximately a third of those killed or wounded at
6 the airport were elderly persons, women, or children.
7 The witness noticed that both shell fire and sniper fire stopped
8 whenever cease-fires were entered into by the warring parties. The
9 witness believed that General Galic had effective command and control
10 over both his artillery and the snipers as a result and observed that the
11 entire VRS structure was a strict hierarchical structure. UNPROFOR
12 protested shelling and sniping of civilians on a number of occasions.
13 That concludes the summary, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you have further questions for the
15 witness, you may proceed.
16 MS. BOLTON: Could we move back into private session, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We return into private session.
18 MS. BOLTON:
19 Q. Sir --
20 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
21 MS. BOLTON: Sorry.
22 [Private session]
23 (redacted)
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25 [Open session]
Page 6303
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MS. BOLTON:
4 Q. Sir, when I pose the next question to you, if you feel it's
5 something that we need to move into private session for, would you please
6 let me know. And my question for you, sir, is whether you could please
7 describe the living conditions that were experienced by the civilian
8 population in Sarajevo in middle of January 1993.
9 A. Yes. When I arrived in Sarajevo at the (redacted)
10 (redacted), the town was completely under siege. The local population
11 survived thanks to the air-lifts that brought in supplies from the UNHCR
12 and also thanks to land convoys that would reach the town. And, on the
13 whole, they were UNHCR convoys.
14 The town had very few energy resources because there were often
15 power cuts, and the pumps that provide supply didn't work. The
16 electricity was lacking, so it was obscure in the town, and you could
17 only see some light from the heating or the lighting that used gas to
18 function as a rule. The inhabitants tried to find water in the Manjaca
19 river that passes through Sarajevo and, in addition to all that, what was
20 most remarkable at the time is that there was artillery fire on a
21 permanent basis on the town, and this has already been said. In certain
22 cases there were military targets and there were attacks or
23 counter-attacks launched by the various part parties. But in other
24 cases, to my mind, the attacks were carried out in order to terrorise the
25 population in Sarajevo. The troops who were on the front line, what I
Page 6304
1 noticed is -- as I myself was in the town, what I noticed is that the
2 Bosniak troops, the Muslim or Bosniak troops, went to the front line in
3 the evening on the whole to relieve other troops. I saw them going to
4 the front lines from inside the town. And, in particular, this was done
5 at the end of the day.
6 Q. Just going to interrupt you there, sir.
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
12 [Private session]
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7 [Open session]
8 MS. BOLTON:
9 Q. Sir, I'm --
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Ms. Bolton.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 MS. BOLTON: I propose to put to the witness, Your Honour, a
14 portion of his previous evidence which had been admitted under seal. But
15 if the documents could not be broadcast, it could be dealt with in
16 open session, if that's agreeable.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please do as you suggest.
18 MS. BOLTON:
19 Q. Sir, in your statement provided in the year 2000, which is now
20 P640, at -- and you should have that document before you, sir. You'll
21 see that there are page numbers in the top right corner of the page
22 written in red, and if you need to refer to the page, please, do so. It
23 would be page 13 in all languages.
24 And in response to the third question on that page under the
25 heading "sniping," you stated:
Page 6309
1 "I think it was important for the Serb side to exercise a
2 permanent pressure of terror. They would do sniping therefore from a
3 certain number of positions that we were able to determine."
4 Just to be clear, again, who did you observe the Serb side to be
5 attempting to terrorise?
6 A. The local population.
7 Q. Did -- did they appear to be -- VRS forces appear to be
8 deliberately targeting civilians with sniper fire?
9 A. They targeted any person moving about in the street. More
10 specifically, at cross-roads where they could shoot down the street,
11 which was counteracted by large sways of cloths that barred the road
12 which gave -- on these streets, gave on to neighbourhoods where the
13 snipers could shoot from. On the other hand, there were shelters which
14 had been set up, made out of car or tramway carcasses. Some contingents
15 in town guaranteed the security of the civilians who tried to move about
16 in town on foot by using their armoured vehicles as mobile shelters to
17 make the crossing of the town for this -- civilians easier when they were
18 potentially in line of sight of these snipers.
19 Q. Did the victims of this kind of sniping include any women or
20 children or elderly persons?
21 A. Yes. For, among the population, there were many of these people,
22 since most able-bodied men had been mobilised and were fighting. But I
23 did see with my own eyes a number of bodies of elderly people.
24 Q. Were there ever occasions or how frequently was it that people
25 would be injured by -- or would be shot when there was no exchange of
Page 6310
1 fire between the warring parties at that particular location?
2 A. I believe that what was specific to the snipers is concerned,
3 i.e., their action against the town, these were not combat operations.
4 These were actions aimed deliberately at the population, in order to
5 terrorise the population and to make sure that the people would feel
6 terrorised. People wanted to go and fetch water in the river and fetch
7 wood, in order to be able to heat themselves.
8 Q. You just mentioned people going to fetch water and going to fetch
9 wood. Were people targeted when they were undertaking those kinds of
10 activities?
11 A. No. They were targeted when they could be fired at from
12 positions which would make that possible. Generally these positions or
13 these were located on -- along the larger roads of the city. I remember
14 the larger routes in the Grbavica neighbourhood which were occupied by
15 the Serb forces, and these faced the large avenue running through the
16 town. So at all the cross-roads, people who crossed these cross-roads
17 were likely to be shot at.
18 Q. On that same topic, at page 17 of the same statement in all
19 languages, you describe the Serb forces:
20 "Opening fire indiscriminately every night from the south-east
21 side of the airport raking the runway with fire, as people were passing
22 across."
23 Could I ask you whether you had -- sorry.
24 MS. BOLTON: Could we move into private session for the
25 completion of my question, please, Your Honour.
Page 6311
1 JUDGE ORIE: We return into private session.
2 [Private session]
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5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 We will adjourn for the day. We'll resume tomorrow morning,
9 Friday, the 14th of December, at 8.00 in the morning, in this same
10 courtroom, II.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of
13 December, 2012, at 8.00 a.m.
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