130114ED

Page 6642

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. D'Ascoli will now continue her

3 examination-in-chief.

4 Please proceed.

5 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli: [Continued]

7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mandilovic. I will now have some brief

8 questions for you, after the preliminary that we had last Friday.

9 First of all, in your paragraph -- in your statement at

10 paragraphs 42 to 58, you say that the state hospital was shelled in

11 several locations, that intensity of the shelling varied in different

12 time-periods and the hospital was hit mostly from the southern side.

13 What I wanted to ask is whether at any point in time from

14 May 1992 onwards, there was a flag of any kind on the hospital to

15 indicate that the building was a medical facility?

16 A. On the southern side of the state hospital building, there was a

17 large flag of the Red Cross, stretching between the sixth and the twelfth

18 floor. It was absolutely visible from any distance. That flag was there

19 for some five to six months. Pardon.

20 Later on, because of the shots fired at the hospital, burned and

21 it was also partially destroyed by the wind and rain. Once that flag was

22 taken off, there were no indications of that nature anymore.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Mandilovic. I wish now to focus on the

24 medical records from the state hospital and other Sarajevo health

25 institutions that have you analysed and authenticated in your statement

Page 6643

1 and in preparation for your testimony today.

2 So, first of all, yes, there are a number of medical records

3 issued by the Sarajevo state hospital itself. Do you remember reviewing

4 and authenticating those in preparation of your testimony?

5 A. Yes, and I have confirmed that.

6 Q. And in your statement, I think this is paragraph 116, you -- you

7 say that you also had occasion to see medical records from the clinical

8 centre of the University of Sarajevo and the forensic institute of the

9 Faculty of Medicine, institutions which you say are commonly known or

10 referred to as the Kosevo hospital; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Can you explain us the circumstances in which you had the chance

13 to see these medical records from the clinical centre at the Kosevo

14 hospital?

15 A. I had such opportunity every day, because the patients, be it

16 those who were sick or wounded, kept going back and forth between the

17 different Sarajevo medical institutions, depending on which institution

18 was being shelled at the time. It meant the following in practical

19 terms: If one was treated in the sate hospital, in my hospital. It

20 doesn't necessarily mean that they had the opportunity to complete that

21 the treatment in our institution because of the events. That is why the

22 patients went from one institution to another all the time, and we had

23 no -- we had occasion to follow the treatment they received at our

24 hospital as well as at their hospital. We treated both our patients and

25 their patients and the same thing was the other way around.

Page 6644

1 Q. Do you think you could give us an estimate of how many -- how

2 many medical records from the clinical centre you saw and worked with

3 during the war between 1992 and 1995? Just an approximation. I mean,

4 dozens, hundreds, something like that.

5 A. We can speak of hundreds, for sure.

6 Q. Okay. Let's take one example of such documents. This is one of

7 the documents you reviewed as part of the -- the documents discussed in

8 the statement.

9 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I please have on the screens, the 65 ter

10 number 0 -- 110222.

11 Sorry, I just meant 10222; apologies.

12 Mr. Mandilovic, can you see the documents on the screens?

13 A. I can see it.

14 Q. Okay. What can you tell us about this document, and, in

15 particular, its provenance?

16 A. This document, or this specialist report, originates from the

17 clinical centre of the Sarajevo university medical facility. We can see

18 that in the heading in the upper right -- left-hand side corner.

19 On the right side, we have the protocol number.

20 In the middle, we have the facts, or, rather, the physician's

21 conclusion that the wounding was caused by a piece of shrapnel.

22 Underneath, we have the diagnosis in Latin, and we see what the

23 treatment was that the patient received, and it concludes by saying that

24 there should be an additional checkup in three days' time, followed by a

25 signature.

Page 6645

1 Based on what I can see, I assert that this is a valid medical

2 document.

3 Q. Yes. My question was whether, on account of your experience and

4 of your co-operation with the clinical centre these documents and

5 documents of this type appear to you as medical records produced during

6 the ordinary course of the medical business of the clinical centre of the

7 University of Sarajevo.

8 A. Yes, absolutely. I agree.

9 Q. Now, in performing your duties as a doctor in those years -

10 again, 1992 to 1995 - you also co-operated with the forensic institute of

11 the Faculty of Medicine in Sarajevo. And in your segment you say you're

12 also familiar and was able to authenticate autopsy reports from the

13 forensic institute. I wanted to have also an example of such documents.

14 MS. D'ASCOLI: I would call up on the screens 65 ter 10401.

15 If we can just have a look at the first page of the document.

16 Exactly.

17 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, I would ask you the same question, meaning what

18 can you tell us about this document and, in particular, its provenance

19 and whether you're able to authenticate it or not.

20 A. I assert that this is it an authentic document based on the

21 following: In the upper left-hand side corner, we see the name of the

22 facility. We have a broader and more narrow designation. It is actually

23 the Faculty of Medicine in Sarajevo specifically its forensics institute

24 or its Department of Forensics.

25 Underneath, we have some general information. There is a

Page 6646

1 diagnosis in Latin, and in the lower left-hand side corner, there's a

2 signature of an assistant at the medical faculty and a specialist of

3 forensic medicine.

4 In the middle, there's a stamp of the school of medicine and its

5 forensics institute.

6 Q. And, again, could you give us an approximation of how many such

7 documents you encountered during your -- during your duties as doctor

8 in -- in the years during the war?

9 A. Out of the entire medical documentation I was able to see, I

10 didn't come across such documents as this too often for a simple reason.

11 We worked with people who were still alive, who were either sick or

12 wounded. This type of document did not arrive routinely but

13 occasionally. In order to complete a medical file, we needed documents

14 such as this one, in cases of patients who passed away, and it made an

15 integral part of the file.

16 Q. And, again, we can say -- can we say that you're familiar such

17 documents and that for the way these appears, these and other similar

18 documents appear from the forensic institute, can you say that these such

19 documents were produced during the regular medical business of the

20 forensic institute?

21 A. Yes, I agree.

22 Q. Now, there's a third document coming from a third medical

23 institution in Sarajevo which is the Dobrinja General Hospital. Also,

24 these type of documents are among the documents that you authenticated in

25 your statement and also in preparation for your testimony through

Page 6647

1 reviewing additional documents that we presented to you.

2 First of all, can you tell us something more about the

3 Dobrinja General Hospital.

4 And maybe, in the meantime, I can call up on the screens 65

5 ter number 10026, please.

6 A. The General Hospital in Dobrinja is a medical facility that was

7 set up due to the war circumstances and the fact that the city was

8 besieged. At its location, there had been an outpatient clinic.

9 Dobrinja, is a part of Sarajevo. It is a settlement of some

10 30.000 inhabitants. It is some 10 kilometres away from the centre of

11 town. Due to the difficult circumstances surrounding the transport of

12 the wounded and sick to the clinical centre, i.e., the state hospital, it

13 was decided to set up a makeshift General Hospital in Dobrinja. That is

14 how it was created. In the course of the first few months and years, I

15 dare say, it was being equipped and provided with personnel. Its role

16 was to take care of people and provide medical assistance to the wounded

17 and sick in that part of Sarajevo as quickly as possible. Oftentimes I

18 came across documents, medical documents, from the Dobrinja hospital for

19 the reasons I have explained earlier.

20 The wounded and sick who were in Sarajevo could not always

21 receive treatment in the same place. That was one reason. There was

22 another reason, which was a rule which stated that all those who were

23 seriously wounded or sick were to be taken to the large medical

24 facilities in town, to the centre and the state hospital, to receive

25 assistance because they required a far greater degree of medical care.

Page 6648

1 Q. Okay. Thank you, Dr. Mandilovic -- yes, exactly. I was going to

2 ask you about the document that now appears on the screen. And if you

3 can tell us which are the elements that make you say that these records,

4 these medical records come from the Dobrinja General Hospital and is an

5 authentic document from that institution?

6 A. It is a typical document from the general hospital in Dobrinja.

7 It is a discharge sheet, meaning that the patient had been hospitalised

8 and released. He was -- or she was provided with these documents as part

9 of their file.

10 We have the following elements. At the top, we have the name of

11 the medical facility which is the general hospital in Dobrinja in this

12 case.

13 Just underneath, in block letters, we see what kind of medical

14 document this is. In this case, it is a discharge sheet. It is followed

15 by some general information, including the dates of arrival and departure

16 from hospital.

17 Further down, we have a diagnosis in Latin, concerning the type

18 of injury.

19 Even further down, we have a clear description of what was done,

20 followed by a signature in block letters and in handwriting of the

21 physician who treated the patient.

22 The document concludes with two round stamps of the

23 Dobrinja General Hospital.

24 Q. Thank you, Dr. Mandilovic. I have one last point to address with

25 regard to medical records and then I will conclude my examination,

Page 6649

1 Your Honours.

2 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I please have on the screens 65 ter 28623.

3 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, in preparation for your testimony today were you

4 asked to review the medical -- additional medical records to those

5 already included in your statement and to make any observation you might

6 have on both the authenticity of the documents and also their content.

7 Do you remember that?

8 A. I do. I looked at the medical documents which I had no occasion

9 to see previously. Following a close inspection, it is my conclusion

10 that the documents are original.

11 Q. If you see the chart on the screen, Dr. Mandilovic, were your

12 observation recorded in this chart that we now see on the screens?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And did you put your initials to indicate that you believed the

15 document to be authenticate?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. For example on the --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. For example, on the very first page if you look at column 5 do

20 you recognise those initials?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if we can go to the last page of the document, of the chart,

23 which is page 5.

24 The English, please. The last -- the last page of the English

25 document, please.

Page 6650

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you recognise --

3 A. I certified that with my own signature.

4 Q. Sir, in reviewing the documents listed in the chart, did they

5 appear to you as medical records produced in the course of the ordinary

6 medical business of the Dobrinja General Hospital and the clinical centre

7 of the University of Sarajevo?

8 A. Yes, I had a look at that, and my conclusion was that these were

9 original documents. It was not only from these two hospitals. I think

10 there were also documents from the state hospital of Sarajevo. That is

11 to say, all three medical institutions that you presented to me.

12 Q. And are you now -- will you -- are you willing to answer any

13 additional questions that the Defence or the Chamber might have about

14 this chart and about the documents that you reviewed?

15 A. Of course.

16 Q. Your Honours, at this point I will just -- according to our

17 proposal I will just proceed as follows, meaning that I will postpone my

18 tendering of both the chart with 65 ter 28623, and also of the associated

19 exhibits that are listed in the associated exhibit part of the exhibit

20 list for Dr. Mandilovic until after the cross-examination so that the

21 Defence has an opportunity to put questions about these documents and

22 their authenticity to the witness and I do so in light of the objections

23 that the Defence raised in the -- in the response to the 92 ter motion?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MS. D'ASCOLI: I am -- I have one just one observation.

Page 6651

1 In the document chart we won't tender 65 ter 10049 because we

2 notice it's duplicative of another 65 ter already contained in the chart

3 meaning 65 ter 13726 which is a more complete record.

4 So I just wanted to put that on the record.

5 There is also -- well, also another point. There is one

6 associated exhibit that defers from the others meaning that it is not a

7 medical record authenticated by the witness but is an excerpt from a

8 video showing the state hospital and also some interior scenes from the

9 hospital. This excerpt is discussed by the witnesses at paragraphs 93 to

10 97 of the statement and I can tender this document at this stage because

11 I don't think the Defence raised any objection as to that. This is the

12 65 ter number 22473A, a subset that we created from 65 ter 22473. It

13 only includes a specific footage of the original video running from

14 01:54:03 to 01:54:56. And the video does not have any audio that we

15 intend to rely on, therefore, I would just tender it as a public exhibit.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The 65 ter 10049 appears as number 2 in the

17 chart, Ms. D'Ascoli, just to have that on the record.

18 Are there any objections against the admission of the associated

19 video?

20 MS. D'ASCOLI: The 65 ter number that I have for the video is

21 22473A.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I do understand that there are no

23 objections against admission.

24 Mr. Registrar, 22473A receives number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P682, Your Honours.

Page 6652

1 JUDGE ORIE: P682 is admitted into evidence.

2 And we'll wait with the chart and the nine remaining documents

3 appearing on it until after the cross-examination.

4 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours.

5 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, thank you very much. I don't have further

6 questions at this stage.

7 MS. D'ASCOLI: That concludes my examination for the time being,

8 Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.

10 Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

11 Mr. Mandilovic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

12 Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, doctor.

15 A. Good morning, Mr. Stojanovic.

16 Q. I'll be very brief. I'll go through a few areas that I wish to

17 ask you about and that are related to your statement.

18 As I look at your CV, it is my understanding that you were born

19 in Novi Sad; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That is in Serbia.

22 A. Serbia, the autonomous province of Vojvodina.

23 Q. As a very young boy you came to Sarajevo with your family?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. You finished elementary school, high school, and you got a degree

Page 6653

1 in medicine in Sarajevo.

2 A. That's right.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the question.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Would you agree that in 1992 you had Yugoslav and Serbian

7 citizenship?

8 A. Yugoslav.

9 Q. We'll have to do this a bit slower. We're both very fast

10 speakers.

11 A. Yes, you're right.

12 Q. Do you agree that when you were born you had Serbian and Yugoslav

13 citizenship?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. At any point in time, until 1992, did you have citizenship of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17 A. No. Only Yugoslav citizenship.

18 Q. After doing your military service in Montenegro, you started

19 working as a military doctor, an army doctor; is that right?

20 A. That's right. After I completed my medical training and

21 residency, I started working as an army doctor.

22 Q. Did you attend reserve officers' school for the medical corps in

23 the army when you did your military service?

24 A. I completed that subsequently.

25 Q. And what was the rank that you were granted then?

Page 6654

1 A. Lieutenant.

2 Q. When did you become a professional military officer in the JNA?

3 A. 1978.

4 Q. In 1978, you had the rank of lieutenant, and until 1992, your

5 career advanced, and you received the rank of major; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When the war broke out, you were a member of the JNA.

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. I'd like us to look at paragraph 2 -- 23, together with you.

10 P679 is the number it has been assigned in e-court.

11 Please help us a bit. Tell us more specifically what this was

12 all about. You will see paragraph 23 in front of you now.

13 In your statement, you say that, to the best of your

14 recollection, on the 2nd of May, there was an incident when a small group

15 of soldiers started out from the military hospital where they were

16 stationed and moved in the direction of the headquarters of the

17 2nd Military District to help out a situation with a truck. There was an

18 incident that took place in Vojvode Stepe Street which is the right bank

19 of the Miljacka river.

20 "Some people were injured, and I think some were killed as well

21 but I cannot give any figures today with any certainty."

22 Can you tell us more specifically what was it that actually

23 happened then, to the best of your knowledge?

24 A. What you read out just now is something that I did not take part

25 in. I just recounted something that had happened and that I saw in the

Page 6655

1 media because, at that point in time, on the 2nd of May, I had left the

2 hospital, and I don't know when it was that this column of JNA officers

3 and soldiers had set out. But I found out what the exact route was and

4 how this happened later on during the course of the day through the

5 media.

6 Q. What was this that you were informed about?

7 A. That an incident, an armed incident, had occurred in the street

8 of Vojvode Stepe. A group of soldiers of the JNA and a clash with the

9 Territorial Defence.

10 Q. To the best of your knowledge, these soldiers had set out to help

11 get a truck out; right?

12 A. That's what I learned from the media.

13 Q. Were these people stopped and killed?

14 A. I don't know whether they were stopped or not. I just know that

15 there was an armed conflict that there were casualties. People were

16 wounded and killed. But how all of this actually happened, I really

17 don't know.

18 Q. Do you know how many dead soldiers there were?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, approximately 80 per cent of the

21 questions you've asked the witness now find their answers in his

22 statement. Now you are exploring something the witness acknowledges that

23 he has no personal knowledge. He learned some of it through the media.

24 So I wonder whether this is the right witness to ask these questions.

25 Would you please keep that in mind when you continue.

Page 6656

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I just wanted

2 to see whether he had any other knowledge, apart from what has already

3 been referred to.

4 Q. Were any of these soldiers or officers brought to the

5 then-military hospital to be provided with medical aid?

6 A. I cannot say because I wasn't at the hospital any longer.

7 Q. Let's look at paragraph 26 of your statement. It's the same

8 document that we have before us.

9 This is what you say there:

10 "When the JNA withdrew from the state hospital, it was an

11 organised departure and equipment and drugs were left behind. The

12 hospital had been surrounded by patriotic forces (police and

13 Territorial Defence) and agreement had been reached that equipment would

14 be left behind."

15 To the best of your knowledge, when was the hospital surrounded

16 by these patriotic forces, as you call them?

17 A. It is very hard to say with any degree of accuracy. I said that

18 in my statement too. One has to be very precise and very fair. This was

19 not a classical military encirclement. These were groups of persons

20 without weapons, say, from the second half of the month of April.

21 They did not stop anyone from entering the hospital or leaving

22 the hospital. They did not constitute any kind of specific hindrance to

23 the flow of patients and civilians and staff who were coming and going.

24 Q. Were they policemen?

25 A. No, no. No. They did -- were not wearing official police

Page 6657

1 uniforms, no.

2 Q. What was your understanding of their task? If I understand you

3 correctly, what do you mean when you say "surrounded"?

4 A. Well not surrounded. It's hard to say. It's hard to find the

5 right word. Quite simply they were there around the hospital and in a

6 way they were patrolling. I think that today, given this significant

7 time distance, I believe that the motto of their stay there was to make

8 sure that medical equipment would not leave the hospital. I think that

9 was their only task. But, look, this is just my opinion. This is not

10 anything official.

11 Q. In this paragraph, 26, you mention that among them there were

12 policemen. So that's why I'm asking you, whether this reminds --

13 A. Maybe. Oh, I really should slow down and this should be

14 interpreted.

15 Maybe there were a few policemen there, but it is really hard to

16 say. You had the Territorial Defence there. And they included members

17 of the police and members of the reserve police. Members of the reserve

18 police are people who had no uniforms or just bits and pieces of

19 uniforms, so it is very hard to say today whether they were policemen.

20 So it is very hard to say. And it would be irresponsible to say

21 anything. Whatever I would say would be unfair.

22 Q. Let us put ourselves in the following situation.

23 If the JNA had decided to leave its equipment -- to take its

24 equipment out of the hospital, would that be a legitimate act?

25 A. I'm not a legal expert, but I think the answer would be no. You

Page 6658

1 know that from the 1st of March onwards, Bosnia-Herzegovina was a

2 separate state so the JNA was a group, an armed military grouping, that

3 did not have any elements of legality at that moment.

4 So I think the answer would be no.

5 Q. You were still a member of this army that you called an

6 illegitimate military force there, and you were a member until May?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And if you look at the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was the

9 question of property resolved? That is to say, the property of the JNA.

10 Was that question resolved?

11 A. Mr. Stojanovic now we are discussing this at state level. It is

12 being discussed to this day. I cannot resolve it and I don't have an

13 answer to that question either.

14 Q. Thank you for that. That is what I expected you to say, because

15 in your previous answer you said that you believe that this was not JNA

16 property. Is that correct --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, first, would you please slow down.

18 The witness started his first answer that he wasn't a lawyer, he wouldn't

19 know about these kind of things and he gave his personal impression.

20 Now your last question was that you were happy with this answer,

21 and again asked him whether it was correct what he said. What he said is

22 on the transcript.

23 Please move on.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may, I would

25 just like to conclude the previous answer provided to Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 6659

1 The JNA included members of all of the former republics of

2 Yugoslavia. The republics financed its existence. It is not as if the

3 JNA financed its own operations. It was financed by the Yugoslav

4 republics. Therefore, it is very difficult to say whose equipment it was

5 that was procured for the JNA.

6 Thank you, Mr. President.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, we'll move on.

8 Q. You said, and that is why I asked you, that it was your

9 impression that it was the task of the TO which surrounded the hospital

10 was to halt any taking away of the equipment. I'm asking you what is it

11 that you base your conclusion on?

12 A. I base it on what I have said a moment ago. The work of the

13 hospital was not hindered at any point in time. People went in and out,

14 including patients and staff, without any problems. Therefore, I don't

15 see any other reason than the one I mentioned. Perhaps there is

16 something else, but I don't see it. At that point in time, I didn't

17 think otherwise, and it is still my opinion. Of course, I have to repeat

18 that is purely my impression.

19 Q. Did they have the means or resources to prevent any potential

20 taking away of the equipment from the hospital?

21 A. I have to say that I did not see armed groups of people.

22 Q. At one point, the then-director of the hospital, Colonel Tausan,

23 summoned to you his office. Am I correct?

24 A. He summoned who?

25 Q. You specifically.

Page 6660

1 A. No, he did not.

2 Q. Did you have a conversation with him at any point in time

3 concerning an evacuation plan of the hospital?

4 A. No. Not me.

5 Q. Was it your decision to leave the hospital and your position?

6 A. Yes, absolutely.

7 Q. Did you inform any of your superior officers of your decision?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Who and why; if you please.

10 A. I informed them because, one, I had to act professionally under

11 the circumstances. I informed my first and second superior officer.

12 Q. Who were the officers you informed?

13 A. The first superior officer was Professor Lucic, my boss. The

14 second one is Colonel Tausan, the director.

15 Q. Did any of the two tell you that you had to follow the orders and

16 to leave the hospital and Sarajevo, together with the army whose member

17 you were?

18 A. No, absolutely not. I have to say that all managing personnel of

19 the JNA in the hospital were quite liberal on that score.

20 Q. Did you believe it was -- it amounted to deserting the unit and

21 army whose member you were and on whose payroll you were acting as an

22 officer?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Why do you believe it was not deserting the unit?

25 A. Because the JNA was not a legal armed formation in

Page 6661

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that point in time.

2 Q. I would --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber unanimously fails

4 to see the relevance of 90 per cent of your questions. Could you please

5 reconsider during the break the questions to follow and then put relevant

6 questions to the witness.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will conclude with this.

8 However, by your leave, I'd like to put just one more question.

9 JUDGE ORIE: One more question before we take a break.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. We'll look at paragraph 31 of your statement together. It is

12 Exhibit P679.

13 Doctor, in your conversation with the Prosecution, you said

14 something different, and that is why I thought it might prove to be

15 relevant.

16 In paragraph 31 you say:

17 "It was difficult to make this decision because remaining behind

18 when one's unit leaves is, in effect, desertion. As a professional

19 soldier, it is a step not to be undertaken lightly."

20 However, what you say today is contrary to it. You say today

21 that you believe that your decision had not meant deserting the unit.

22 I'm asking you simply whether what you said in the statement, which is

23 now part of the exhibits in this case which you provided some time ago,

24 is an incorrect interpretation, or did you change your position in the

25 meantime?

Page 6662

1 A. Legally speaking, I am of the same view. However, speaking as a

2 human being and a colleague, it was a difficult decision to make.

3 Legally it was not wrong to make it. Speaking as a human being, of

4 course, it was difficult because I had worked with those people for a

5 number of years. However, in the context of everything I've said thus

6 far, legally speaking, it was not a wrong decision to make.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break, and we'll resume at ten

9 minutes to 11.00.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14 [The witness takes the stand]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

16 Could I remind both you and you, Mr. Mandilovic, to make a short

17 pause between question and answer and answer and question.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll do our best.

20 Could we please have 553, page 24 in e-court. It is a photograph

21 from the Sarajevo court finder album, which we've had occasion to see it

22 previously. I wanted to ask the witness to assist us in identifying

23 certain features and buildings.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you referred to P3, page 24 in

25 e-court.

Page 6663

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P3. Precisely, Your Honour.

2 Line 15, page 22, that's what it should read: P3. Page 24. Thank you.

3 Could we please zoom in on this photograph.

4 Q. Doctor, do you recognise what's in the picture and tell us if you

5 can see the military hospital building there?

6 A. Yes. I can find my bearings here, and I can see the military

7 hospital building.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to

9 provide a pen for the witness, in order to be able to mark the military

10 hospital building.

11 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Thank you, doctor. Since we'll be making some further markings,

14 let's stay with this photograph.

15 Am I right in saying that this photograph was taken from the

16 southern side of the hospital?

17 A. Yes, you are.

18 Q. When you mentioned that the building was damaged most intensely

19 on this side, that would be the side that we can see en face now;

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Doctor, how far were the lines of the two warring parties in this

23 part of Sarajevo, especially viewing it from the hospital building?

24 A. It is difficult to be precise. I've tried to explain it before.

25 I think it was some 400 metres, as the crow flies.

Page 6664

1 Q. Between what?

2 A. Between the military hospital and the lines of the

3 Army of Republika Srpska.

4 Q. So between the two line, the hospital and the positions held by

5 Republika Srpska army. But between those two lines, there were positions

6 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If there was an exchange of fire from those positions, am I right

9 in saying that the fire from the positions of the

10 Army of Republika Srpska was directed in -- towards the southern side of

11 the hospital building?

12 A. That is not correct. The military hospital was not a defence

13 line. I can defend -- presume where the defence lines were, although I

14 never visited those lines, but they were far closer to the Serb positions

15 than the military position was.

16 Q. My question was this: If the VRS were to fire shots at the

17 positions of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, would that be in the same

18 direction as the southern side of the hospital building?

19 A. Yes, in terms of direction. But physically speaking, it is

20 impossible because there's a difference in altitude, if you want to go

21 into detail. The Army of Republika Srpska always assumed vantage points

22 over the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the -- their shots went

23 downwards, not towards the hospital.

24 Q. Would you agree with me that in this photograph such buildings

25 that are not at an elevation but close to the Miljacka river, that such

Page 6665

1 buildings were the same level, the same altitude, as the positions of the

2 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. I believe the question is not clear to me.

4 Q. Let me try it this way.

5 Am I right that the buildings you see here which is Grbavica?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And Grbavica was in the hands of the VRS, those buildings were

8 level with the positions of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the other

9 bank of the Miljacka river?

10 A. That is correct. Part of Grbavica was in the hands of the VRS

11 but on Trebevic and the Jewish cemetery it was also the VRS who were

12 there and such positions were at a significantly higher altitude.

13 Q. We'll discuss that further. For the time being, I'd like to ask

14 you this: Do you know and did you at any point in time learn that the

15 positions of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were in the buildings marked

16 in this photograph as buildings number 4 and 5 in -- near Trebevic and

17 the Unis building?

18 A. I don't know that. I don't know what the tactical situation was

19 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I really don't.

20 Q. Let's look at a document together, which is in e-court. It is

21 1D546?

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me ask you

23 this for the time being, technically speaking we need to save this

24 photograph or we will loose the markings. Perhaps the witness could mark

25 it only with a VB, "vojna bolnica," military hospital or state hospital,

Page 6666

1 and could we please assign it a number because I am about to move to

2 another document.

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Doctor, would you be so kind as to use the pen and please the

6 letters DB, "drzavna bolnica," state hospital, and I would kindly ask the

7 Court to assign a number to this marked photograph.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, marked version of Exhibit P3 shall

10 be assigned Exhibit D127. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: D127 is admitted into evidence.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D546 next.

14 Q. While we are waiting for the document, doctor, let me ask you

15 this: Did you know that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had sniper

16 positions close to the hospital where you worked? Were you ever told

17 that at any point in time?

18 A. No. No, I had no such knowledge.

19 Q. Did you have any information pertaining to the sniping units

20 which were part of the 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

21 Sarajevo?

22 A. The operation of sniper units in any army is a military secret.

23 I was in no position to deal with such issues. I was a medical expert

24 and I was treated as such. All such matters pertaining to the

25 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is something that I can improvise my answers

Page 6667

1 on, but I have no specific information.

2 Q. I understand that. That is why I'm asking you whether you were

3 certain that the hospital building was hit by sniper fire or infantry

4 fire at any point in time.

5 A. Mr. Stojanovic, in the 44 months of the siege, the state hospital

6 was hit from all sorts of weapons. Let me be specific: Infantry

7 weapons, all the way up to shells and projectiles.

8 Q. However, given what you have said a moment ago, you cannot

9 confirm whether in the total of infantry fire that hit the hospital there

10 were any sniping shots that hit it.

11 A. No, I can't make that difference.

12 Q. Thank you. Let us look at the document next.

13 It is an Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina document dated the

14 2nd of October, 1993. It reads:

15 "On the basis of the necessity for more quality training and more

16 quality performance of duties by snipers, in the 1st, 2nd, and

17 3rd Motorised Battalion," I presume mtb, and the original stands for

18 motorised battalion, "for all those reasons a sniper squad" -- actually,

19 "a sniper platoon is being established," and we have the names of the

20 people involved.

21 I presume, first and foremost, that you have never had occasion

22 to see this document?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. However, appreciating the fact that you spent a number of years

25 in Sarajevo, can you tell us how far from the state hospital was the

Page 6668

1 Blagoje Parovic school?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I take it there's no need to remind

3 you that the first line of paragraph 47 says:

4 "Whilst I cannot say that the hospital was deliberately sniped

5 at, I must say that the hospital received thousands of hits from

6 small-arms fire, and photographs taken at the time of the war show the

7 hospital to be bullet-riddled, and greatly damaged."

8 Which clearly indicates that this witness apparently has not

9 formed an opinion on sniping, apart from what he saw. That is, the east,

10 the west and the south part of the building, being hit by small-arms

11 fire.

12 So, therefore, to explore in detail snipers where this witness

13 does not even claim that from either side, I wonder to what extent that

14 would assist the Chamber.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, I

16 would like to draw your attention to paragraph 49 of the same statement.

17 The witness's previous testimony is being quoted there, and it says

18 clearly that between August 1994 and November 1995 the main hospital

19 building was exposed both to artillery fire and to sniper fire.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you look at the building, you wouldn't be

21 surprised by that, isn't it? If you see photographs and if you see a

22 video.

23 I mean, he doesn't form any opinion about who sniped, who

24 shelled. At least that's not in these paragraphs. That's -- should be

25 clear as a starting point from putting any further questions to what the

Page 6669

1 witness states.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I conclude on that

4 note. Because the witness cannot say on this basis whether the weapons

5 included snipers, and in paragraph 47, there was a reference to

6 deliberate targeting of the hospital.

7 Q. And, doctor, now I'd like to go back to the question that I had

8 put to you.

9 Can you tell us, at all, how far away the Blagoje Parovic school

10 was from the state hospital, that is?

11 A. I don't know whether we mean the same school. There where many

12 schools in the city of Sarajevo. I think it is a few kilometres away.

13 Q. Could you please tell me, to the best of your knowledge, do you

14 know where the Cenex building was?

15 A. I do. It is certainly 4 to 5 kilometres away from the hospital.

16 Q. Thank you, doctor.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I'm not going to be using

18 this document any longer, Your Honours. We will tender it through

19 another witness then, so I have no intention of using it any further now.

20 Q. Doctor, I'd like to ask you the following: Could you tell us how

21 far away the closest police station was from the hospital, in this area,

22 in Marin Dvor, in that part of town?

23 A. The Marin Dvor police station is relatively close to the

24 hospital. It is perhaps 200 metres away. 200, 250 maybe?

25 Q. Was the mentioned police station operational during the war as

Page 6670

1 well?

2 A. Well, look, I was not at the police station. But it was

3 certainly used for this function for the comings and goings of policemen.

4 I can provide a non-medical opinion now. It could not have had any

5 combat function because it is within the group of buildings there. It is

6 a very densely populated area, Marin Dvor. It's a proper city area, so

7 this is not a facility that would be any kind of threat to the other

8 side.

9 If I can be even more specific. This was - and still is - only

10 an administrative building and nothing more than that.

11 Q. Now I have to ask you about this, doctor. Are you trying to say

12 that a police station in war time and the police as part of the armed

13 forces is not a military target?

14 A. Well, in a narrower sense, it is a military target.

15 Q. Thank you, doctor.

16 A. But it is a target that is not active.

17 I don't know whether you understand what I'm trying to say. On

18 the roof of the Marin Dvor police station, there wasn't a sniper nest or

19 a machine-gun nest or something like that. This was a purely

20 administrative building that was used for such purposes only.

21 Q. How come you know that, doctor if you said a few moments ago --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's limit ourselves to -- Mr. Stojanovic,

23 there's no need to make this kind of gesture nodding no. Let's -- the

24 doctor indicated that he gave his non-medical opinion. The Chamber

25 appreciates that he wants to assist, but let's stick to the factual

Page 6671

1 knowledge of the witness. Apart from military target or not,

2 Mr. Mandilovic, you said the building was used for administrative

3 purposes. Could you explain - because that's what Mr. Stojanovic would

4 like to know - what is the source of your knowledge that it was

5 exclusively used for administrative purposes?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because before the war and

7 during the war and after the war, its purpose remained the same. This is

8 the administrative centre of the police that takes care of the Marin Dvor

9 zone and a bit beyond that. It's a small building that is irrelevant.

10 People came and went and perhaps there was a place there where they

11 assembled but, I mean, it cannot constitute by its very configuration a

12 place from where one could fire or engage in combat.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Doctor, at the time, during the war, was the state building --

15 hospital building secured?

16 A. Only at the gate of the hospital.

17 Q. Who provided security there?

18 A. At the gate, there were reserve policemen.

19 Q. Administratively, did they belong to the police station that you

20 talked about a moment ago?

21 A. That is easily possible. I don't know where the command or --

22 the police was, the reserve police, and -- I don't know how this division

23 functioned. But the important thing is that at the hospital gate, there

24 were only reserve policemen during the war.

25 Q. Tell me, doctor, is it correct that, at that time, there was a

Page 6672

1 medical battalion within the 1st Corps of the BH army in Sarajevo?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And where were its headquarters?

4 A. The medical battalion within the 1st Corps was stationed -- well,

5 practically it was deployed in the field around Sarajevo. It was within

6 the Territorial Defence units. So it is hard to say where it was

7 stationed. You are probably referring to the question of medical

8 facilities near the hospital. This was just a clinic, but it wasn't the

9 headquarters of the medical battalion. The medical battalion was

10 stationed within the administration of the 1st Corps.

11 Q. Within the state hospital, was there a headquarters of that

12 battalion there?

13 A. No. The state hospital was a non-military formation throughout

14 the war.

15 Q. Where was the command of the medical battalion?

16 A. I don't know. I really don't know where it was. I assume that

17 the chief of the medical unit of the 1st Corps was in the command of the

18 1st Corps, which would be perfectly logical.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

20 look at 1D547, the statement of the witness, Mr. Mandilovic, dated the

21 5th of January, 2007. And could we please take a look at paragraph 18.

22 1D547 is the number of the document. I'm repeating it once again.

23 Could we please focus on paragraph 18.

24 Q. Mr. Mandilovic --

25 A. I haven't got anything in front of me yet.

Page 6673

1 Q. Do you recognise your signature -- well, actually, I'll ask you

2 about that later.

3 Please look at paragraph 18 of the statement that you gave to the

4 investigators of the Tribunal on the 5th of January, 2007. And this is

5 what you say there. I'm reading the third sentence from paragraph 18:

6 "The medical corps battalion was housed in the hospital ...

7 complex. This comprised of the medical support unit of the 1st Corps of

8 the ABiH."

9 This is what I'm asking you now: What kind of unit was this?

10 A. Mr. Stojanovic, you read the first statement.

11 Q. The third and fourth one.

12 A. Can I read out the end?

13 Q. I will.

14 A. Please go ahead.

15 Q. "The medical corps battalion was housed in the hospital complex.

16 This comprised of the medical support unit of the 1st Corps of the ABiH.

17 Although this was called a battalion, it" --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] "... only comprised of medical

20 personnel such as doctors, nurses, et cetera. The medical corps

21 battalion was exclusively used to treat soldiers who were recovering from

22 injury and illness."

23 A. Of course.

24 Q. This is what I'm asking you now: What kind of battalion are you

25 speaking of here, that was housed within the hospital?

Page 6674

1 A. I am referring to two things here. The 1st Corps has to have its

2 own medical support and that is the medical battalion that consisted of

3 doctors, medical technicians and equipment, and it is supposed to take

4 care of persons who were wounded and ill. That is quite clear.

5 However, the medical battalion is not a stationary institution.

6 It is an institution that is out in the field. It is in units of the

7 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina specifically. Less there be any confusion

8 here, this is what I'm saying here: That it only consisted of medical

9 personnel for one clinic or infirmary, so it was this one infirmary that

10 was used for recovery of patients who had been injured so the question of

11 the medical battalion is one thing. And the second question would be

12 what was near the hospital in this respect? So I am categorically

13 stating and it can be seen from this context too that near the hospital

14 there was only this infirmary with doctors and nurses who were working

15 there, and who took care of patients, wounded persons, sick persons who

16 required longer treatment but not hospitalisation.

17 So it was only a small medical institution?

18 Q. Doctor, where was that?

19 A. That facility is to the west of the hospital. To the west of the

20 buildings of the military hospital.

21 Q. Could you please tell us for the transcript how far away it is

22 from the hospital building.

23 A. Well, perhaps 250 metres.

24 Q. Thank you, doctor. Could we please take a look at P3 again. P3,

25 the photograph that we saw a moment ago. Page 24.

Page 6675

1 And while we're waiting, doctor, let me just ask you the

2 following. The police station, Marin Dvor, can it be seen in this

3 photograph?

4 A. Only the roof, maybe. Well, I'll try. I'll try to be fully

5 co-operative. But from the position that is provided here, this picture

6 from the south, it is hard to ...

7 Q. The upper right-hand part of the photograph, could that be zoomed

8 in, please.

9 This is what I'm ask you now, now that we have this zoomed in.

10 Can we mark the roof of the police station?

11 A. I think it's here.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear Mr. Stojanovic.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would this be right? Oh, I see.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could we again zoom in to the part we saw a minute

15 ago.

16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Doctor, could you please mark this with a PS, police station.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you. Doctor, the north part of the hospital building was

21 safer during the war, and it was used for treating patients who had been

22 wounded, and also medical staff were housed there?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Does that mean that the intensity of fire from the north was

25 considerably less than from the other side?

Page 6676

1 A. You can put it that way.

2 Q. The front line between the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

3 Army of Republika Srpska, if we look at the north, from the northern part

4 of the building, how far away was it?

5 A. It is hard to say because I did not tour the area, you know, but

6 roughly, it is known where the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska

7 were up there, Mrkovici, Poljane. I'm talking about that segment up

8 there. So, at any rate, the distance is far greater as the crow flies

9 than is the one on the southern side.

10 Q. Can you give us an estimate of how far away this was in

11 kilometres?

12 A. That's very difficult. Even an artillery officer could not tell

13 you for sure. Well, okay. Let me venture a guess. Three kilometres, as

14 the crow flies.

15 Q. Doctor, could you tell the Court whether, as one looks towards

16 the north to the positions of the VRS, were there any elevations or

17 buildings that were taller than the hospital building?

18 A. To the north? Is that what you mean?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. No. There were no taller buildings in that direction.

21 Q. Is Kosevsko Brdo in that direction?

22 A. Yes. Partially. Partially. The other part was completely clear

23 and free.

24 Q. Is Kosevo hill at a higher elevation and the hospital building?

25 A. Yes, a bit. But it's not a building. You asked me about

Page 6677

1 buildings, whether there were any buildings or facilities taller than the

2 military hospital. And this is a hill.

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... there may be a

4 problem here. I understood the question to relate to both buildings and

5 higher positions.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can clear this up,

7 Your Honour. I think we're moving in the right direction.

8 Q. What I want to ask you is this, doctor --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the language which we find on the transcript is

10 elevations.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So, let me repeat, doctor, and you can see why I'm asking this,

14 because of infantry fire. Between the positions held by the VRS for

15 which you knew were at Mrkovici and Poljane --

16 A. In part. I can't be precise. I never toured those lines. But

17 it's an approximation.

18 Q. And the military or state hospital building, there are

19 elevations, hills, and buildings taller than the military hospital?

20 A. There is Kosevo hill but only partially. If you look at the

21 picture, the photograph, if you look closely, you see that it is only the

22 western part of the military hospital is in the direction of that

23 elevation. The eastern part is completely clear.

24 Q. We agree --

25 A. To put it in a different way. To the west of the military

Page 6678

1 hospital high-rise, there is this elevation called Kosevo hill. But the

2 other sides of the -- that area were far lower and clear of obstacles.

3 Q. On the northern side, while you were in the hospital, was any

4 infantry fire directed at that part of the building, of the hospital?

5 A. No. I don't remember -- well, perhaps there may have been some.

6 I cannot be very specific. However, I think there was no infantry fire.

7 Q. Doctor, the entrance to the hospital was on the northern side of

8 the building; correct?

9 A. No. The entrance was on the southern side.

10 Q. During the war --

11 A. During the war.

12 Q. During the war, did you always use only the southern entrance?

13 A. Always. It is the official entrance. That is where the staff

14 gate is and the vehicle gate is.

15 Q. During the war, you used four floors. Only the lowest four

16 floors of the buildings as the safest ones; correct?

17 A. Excuse me, Mr. Stojanovic, which building specifically?

18 Q. Of the hospital.

19 A. There are three buildings in the hospital compound. There is the

20 high-rise of 12 floors. To the left of the high-rise, there is a lower

21 building with four floors. And to the right of the high-rise, there's a

22 three-storey building. It all makes the state hospital compound in

23 Sarajevo.

24 Q. In the high-rise, there are 12 floors.

25 A. Very well.

Page 6679

1 Q. My question is this: How many floors did you use in that

2 building or in that part of the state hospital compound?

3 A. One cannot be specific in answering that for the simple reason

4 that the fire directed at the state hospital was not always of the same

5 intensity. It all depended on our needs. When there was heavy shelling,

6 we left the southern part of the building and went down to the lower

7 floors, including the cellar, the basement.

8 When there was no combat, when there was no shelling, the

9 patients were again returned up to the fourth floor, more or less.

10 Q. Having in mind the capacity of the hospital before the war, in

11 terms of percentages, how much of its capacity was put to use during the

12 war?

13 A. It's a difficult question. It's a statistical matter. At least

14 80 per cent. Because, let me make things easier for you. Before the

15 war, or in peacetime, there were other hospital standards in application.

16 There were three-bed rooms only. There was a maximum of three beds per

17 room. But during the war, one cannot respect such standards. There were

18 situations where we had rooms used where the staff used to change. In

19 peacetime we placed between 20 and 25 beds which is completely against

20 any medical and hygiene standards, but were necessary in order to

21 survive.

22 Q. Doctor, now that we have this southern side in the picture, you

23 mentioned that the VRS positions were at elevations at Grbavica as

24 compared to the positions of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The

25 toponyms, Debelo Brdo and Colina Kapa, do they ring a bell?

Page 6680

1 A. Debelo Brdo, I have never heard of that expression, not until the

2 war and after that. As for Colina Kapa, it is an elevation at a distant

3 end of town from the hospital.

4 Q. Who held those two elevations?

5 A. I really don't know.

6 There are two questions in this: Who held those positions; and

7 who controlled that area. Because to hold and control is not the same

8 thing. That's one thing.

9 Another thing: These were tactical positions, and the ownership,

10 so to say, changed, depending on the movements of the forces. I'd rather

11 not speculate as to who held them and when during the war.

12 Q. Very well, doctor. I will not press this any further because

13 you've -- you were asked about this in the Karadzic case.

14 Let me move on. In your amalgamated statement, you said that in

15 no time you had an opportunity to see the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina fire

16 mortars from the school -- the hospital compound on or near the compound?

17 A. Yes, absolutely. I'm very proud and happy to be able to say

18 that. I state that categorically, although I wasn't in the hospital

19 around the clock. However during the long period I was there, I never

20 saw any weapons in and around the hospital. That's the first thing --

21 Q. Let me stop you there because you prompted another question.

22 According to your statement you worked for 24 hours and then had

23 a break of another 24 hours when you rotated in regular shifts; correct?

24 A. Yes. Nominally speaking. However, in real terms, it was never

25 like that because in certain periods you could observe the 24-hour shifts

Page 6681

1 but there were many periods when one worked all the time, when there was

2 no time to rest or leave.

3 I have to say that much of the time in the 44 months I was in the

4 hospital much more than at home. That is why I can say competently that

5 during the time that I was on duty, I never saw any weapons in and around

6 the hospital. I started answering that, but you interrupted me,

7 Mr. Stojanovic.

8 Let me continue. First of all, I need to say that the

9 surroundings of the hospital is this: It is an urban hospital. There is

10 no extra space. Even parking spaces are very limited.

11 Another thing. Pardon me, Mr. Stojanovic. Another thing: The

12 hospital was always - how should I put it? - it was always observed by

13 UNPROFOR, the UN, the foreign media, and none of them, nobody ever

14 noticed any fire from the hospital. That is why I wanted to put my

15 statement in -- in a wider context. And thank you for allowing me to do

16 so, Mr. Stojanovic.

17 Q. Thank you, doctor. I asked you this for the simple reason that

18 we had occasion to see -- to hear UNPROFOR testimony here to that effect.

19 Can you exclude the possibility that in your absence from the

20 hospital it could have happened that there was a mobile vehicle used to

21 fire mortars?

22 A. I'm speaking as a non-medical expert. Yes, of course. But not

23 from the hospital. It could only be done from the street surrounding the

24 hospital, not from the hospital. Technically speaking, it would have

25 been impossible.

Page 6682

1 Q. Thank you, doctor. When you say you went home, tell us how far

2 was your home from the state hospital?

3 A. Some 3 kilometres.

4 Q. And you traversed that route, if not daily, then, very

5 frequently, on foot and onboard the hospital bus; correct?

6 A. Yes. It all depended on the situation in the city at that

7 moment.

8 Q. Along that route, from home to the hospital, did you pass by the

9 Alpina building, as we called it, in Sarajevo?

10 A. Can you tell me what is Alpina? I remember it only as a

11 Slovenian company selling shoes.

12 Q. They had a building with a shop there produced by Alpina, the

13 Slovenian company. We called it in popular terms, the Alpina building.

14 Did you pass by that building?

15 A. I must have. It was called the so-called Salvation Road because

16 it was the safest route in Sarajevo.

17 Q. How far is that building from the state hospital?

18 A. At least 500 metres. At least.

19 Q. Did you have occasion when passing by that building along

20 Trscanska Street to observe the command of a war-time unit of the HVO?

21 A. No. Really, no. Walking up and down that street I could observe

22 members of the HVO, but I had no idea where their headquarters were, and

23 I never went there.

24 Q. Thank you, doctor. I'll move on to a number of questions

25 concerning the parts of the building that were hit.

Page 6683

1 In your view, doctor, when you say "artillery pieces," what kind

2 of weapons would those be that were used to hit the hospital building?

3 A. It's difficult to say. It's difficult to say. I cannot

4 speculate as to what the calibre was. But when you see damage on the

5 facade, when you see damage in -- in a patient room, when there's a

6 detonation which shakes up the entire building, of course, it's a

7 large-calibre weapon. One needn't be a military expert.

8 Q. As far as I understood, in the four years of the war, you had one

9 occasion to be close to the place that was hit by heavy shelling.

10 A. Yes. I was on the staircase of the hospital, and there was this

11 enormous blast, the shaking of the ground and the shattering of glass.

12 In the hospital corridor there was much dust. We were all grey and

13 black, covered completely in our face and our clothes. It was a very

14 strong detonation which luckily enough did not injure or kill anyone but

15 occurred very closely, some 15 metres away. We were in the inside

16 corridor. And there were no injuries or wounded people.

17 Q. If you tried, could you tell us when it was?

18 A. I think it was in the summer of 1994. I do remember it rather

19 clearly. I believe it was in the summer of 1994.

20 Q. At any point in time, apart from this, was anyone fatally wounded

21 by shelling in the hospital, throughout the war?

22 A. I don't think so, but there were persons who were injured. There

23 were about ten persons who were injured. That's for sure. Patients,

24 that is.

25 Q. That's what I'm going to ask you, doctor. But let us take this

Page 6684

1 step by step. We'll do it quickly.

2 We will agree that as for patients and hospital staff, no one was

3 fatally wounded.

4 A. Not in hospital. Look, as far as I know, to the best of my

5 knowledge, no.

6 Q. Thank you. You are testifying about what you know.

7 A. Yes, of course.

8 Q. To the best of your knowledge, during the four years of war, no

9 one was killed at the state hospital as a result of shelling and

10 small-arms fire that hit the hospital, no patients, no hospital staff.

11 A. Not in the hospital itself. But outside the hospital compound,

12 there were injuries, but not in the hospital itself.

13 Q. Thank you. During these four years of war, if I understand you

14 correctly, there about ten cases when patients were wounded by artillery

15 that fired at the state hospital.

16 A. Yes. But I have to make a small correction. It was also as a

17 result of sniper fire. That's why I insisted on that. I insisted that

18 we show the entire hospital. In addition to that sky-scraper that I

19 talked about a moment ago, 12 storeys high, white, to the west there is a

20 four-storey building. That is where our patients were also put up

21 because our premises were overcrowded --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the

23 answer.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Now I'm going to ask you something else. When you say "sniper

Page 6685

1 wounding," are you referring to snipers or small-arms fire, or are you

2 saying that you cannot tell what the origin of the fire was?

3 A. Mr. Stojanovic, it's very hard to say whether it's sniper fire or

4 small-arms fire. But in view of the distance, and in view of the

5 precision, it is to be assumed that it is sniper fire.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's refrain from assumptions at this moment.

7 Could we first go back to your previous answer, because the

8 interpreters did not catch all of it.

9 You said, when you were referring to the four-storey buildings:

10 "That is where our patients were also put up because our premises

11 were overcrowded."

12 What did you then add to that line.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is what I said:

14 That because our premises were overcrowded and because it was impossible

15 to organise hospitalisation in the taller buildings, we had full capacity

16 at the lower floors. So, to the west of hospital, there's this

17 four-storey building and that was full because we had many of our

18 patients staying there, and I think we had incidents twice that occurred

19 there. Persons were wounded by light infantry fire.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, going back to the other matter of

21 small-arms fire or sniper fire, where you say "it is to be assumed that

22 it is sniper fire," that assumption is based of a far-away source of

23 fire, is it not?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An absolutely far-away source of

25 fire. Since it was the fourth floor, the line would perhaps - perhaps -

Page 6686

1 correspond to -- I mean, well, far-away fire that came from the positions

2 of the Army of Republika Srpska.

3 JUDGE ORIE: What perhaps happened is not what we are seeking to

4 hear from a witness.

5 Do I understand that when you're talking about small-arms fire or

6 sniper fire, that you are talking about -- talking about people that were

7 wounded by small-calibre projectiles -- well, to -- in ordinary language,

8 by bullets?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, patients were

10 hospitalised because of previous wounds. They had been wounded by

11 small-arms fire or shrapnel, but they were additionally wounded while

12 lying in hospital. Their lower limbs were injured by fire that came from

13 light weapons, or, rather, fire that did not have any major effect.

14 Basically these were entry/exit wounds. Our assumption -- our assumption

15 is --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. What your assumption is is

17 not what this Chamber would like to hear. You observed that the

18 additional wounding was by small-arms fire, entry/exited wounds.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

20 When I said "please proceed," perhaps I should have said let's

21 take a break.

22 Could the witness first be escorted out of the courtroom.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Stojanovic, you failed to tender the

25 marked photograph where the police station was marked by the witness.

Page 6687

1 Now there's no need to do that. I'll put on the record what the witness

2 marked.

3 On the photograph which was shown to him, which is page 24 in

4 e-court from P3, the witness marked a roof, a building, with a red roof,

5 which is found at the extreme right edge of this photograph, to the right

6 of the Assembly building, which is marked by 4, where we see a church, at

7 least a structure with a tower immediately to the right of that blue

8 tower marked 4. And it is the building immediately to the right of that

9 church up to where the photograph ends which was marked by the witness as

10 the police station.

11 It's hereby on the record.

12 We take a break, and we'll resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

16 Meanwhile, I missed that the marked photograph, which disappeared

17 from our screen, had been saved. Could we have a look at it in e-court?

18 [The witness takes the stand]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Because, rather than using my description, it would

20 be good to have it marked -- to have it admitted into evidence. Well,

21 it's disappeared now again, but ...

22 Mr. Registrar, the number for the marked photograph.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, second marked version of Exhibit P3

24 shall be assigned Exhibit D128.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

Page 6688

1 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic. Could you give us an indication

2 as to how much time you'd still need?

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I had

4 originally said that the examination would not take more than two hours,

5 and I believe that we are going to do it that way. Up to two hours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Q. Doctor, I would just like us to complete that set of questions

9 that dealt with artillery fire hitting the hospital.

10 You personally were not in a position to see the positions from

11 which the hospital had been hit; is that correct?

12 A. That is correct. I was not in a situation to see the exact place

13 from where the projectile had come.

14 Q. Thank you, doctor. And, to conclude, in view of your education

15 and training, you are not sure what artillery piece was used when the

16 hospital had been hit.

17 A. I think I can give an approximate answer.

18 Q. I would kindly ask you to say that you cannot answer, to simply

19 say so, because you are not supposed to speculate. If you're saying that

20 you're going to give an approximate answer --

21 A. Well, Mr. Stojanovic, let me --

22 JUDGE ORIE: One -- one second, please.

23 Yes. If -- if you ask the question in order to hear a no from

24 the witness, it's the witness who answers, Mr. Stojanovic. It's not you

25 who tell him what the answer is you would expect and you would consider

Page 6689

1 appropriate.

2 Let the witness tell us what answer he wanted to give. Please

3 tell us your answer.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot agree with the question

5 that was put in the singular. The hospital was shelled all the time. It

6 was hit all the time. So, during 44 months of the siege, it was

7 constantly exposed to fire.

8 It is hard for me to say exactly what the calibres were of the

9 projectiles that had hit the hospital. However, in view of the damage

10 that could be seen on the hospital, it was clear that it had to be large

11 calibres because the devastation was enormous, not only of the facade

12 itself, but also the interior.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what you consider to be "large

14 calibres." What do you have approximately on your mind?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Large calibres? I think that these

16 are cannon shells, mortar shells, a 120 millimetres. I also think it

17 would be an anti-aircraft gun.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Doctor, could you please tell us during those four years how many

21 such large-calibre projectiles hit the hospital?

22 A. Tens. As can be seen by this large-scale devastation of the

23 building.

24 Q. Could you please tell us, to the best of your recollection,

25 during which period of the war did this happen most often and most

Page 6690

1 intensively?

2 A. I think that the period of 1992/1993 was more intensive than what

3 followed. Of course, there were hits in 1994 and 1995 as well, but the

4 intensity was somewhat less.

5 Q. Let us deal with energy supplies for the hospital.

6 As far as electricity is concerned, do you know from which part

7 of the grid you received electricity?

8 A. I don't know from which part we received this form of energy, but

9 I know that we did a lot of surgery and other work in a situation when we

10 had to use power generators because, obviously, there had been no

11 electricity.

12 Q. Would you agree with me that that would be the case in -- in that

13 entire part of the city. It wasn't only the hospital that didn't have

14 electricity.

15 A. Practically the entire city did not have electricity.

16 Q. And what about these power generators? Which energy did they

17 use?

18 A. Oil.

19 Q. Do you know how the oil supplies and oil derivatives reached the

20 hospital?

21 A. It was thanks to UNPROFOR. Because this was totally within their

22 control. There was no other way. Nothing else was possible.

23 Q. In that period, did you receive medicine and medical supplies

24 through UNPROFOR?

25 A. To the best of my recollection, we received medicine and medical

Page 6691

1 supplies from different NGOs, humanitarian organisations, but they were

2 always escorted by UNPROFOR.

3 Q. In order to get to the hospital and Sarajevo, they had to go

4 through areas that were under the control of the

5 Army of Republika Srpska; is that correct?

6 A. Absolutely correct.

7 Q. As for water supplies, do you know from where the hospital

8 obtained its water and where it was that the waterworks went?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Do you know where the source of the water supply for that area of

11 Sarajevo was before the war?

12 A. Well, you see, the city of Sarajevo has a special configuration.

13 It is surrounded by mountains with an abundance of water. So I believe

14 that a big city like Sarajevo was not supplied only from a single source.

15 I assume that you are referring to Bacevo that was in Ilidza. But I

16 believe that there were other sources as well.

17 However, these are questions that I never dealt with seriously,

18 and I never needed to do that.

19 Q. Thank you. But you did mention Bacevo as a source of water.

20 Will we agree that during the war, it was in the area controlled by the

21 Army of Republika Srpska?

22 A. Bacevo was the major source of water supply, and it is true that

23 it was controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska.

24 Q. Do you know that on the hill of Mojmilo, that was also under the

25 control of the Army of Republika Srpska, there were reservoirs for the

Page 6692

1 water supply of the city of Sarajevo?

2 A. There were some water facilities, but I could not tell you what

3 the exact capacity would be.

4 Q. In military terms, who held the area where the water tanks were

5 at Mojmilo hill that were used to supply water for Sarajevo?

6 A. They were probably controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. When you couldn't rely on the public water supply system, you

8 used water trucks to supply the hospital; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Where did that water come from? Where did the trucks bring that

11 water from?

12 A. I don't know where from, but I remember that the trucks were

13 escorted by UNPROFOR.

14 Q. So the hospital either received water from the public water

15 system or from the water trucks that were escorted by UNPROFOR during the

16 war; correct?

17 A. I disagree with the way you put this. We did have water, but the

18 bare minimum. Not to the amount that would be required for the normal

19 functioning of a hospital. We always had to save water; thus, disabling

20 the entire hospital to function according to normal hygiene standards.

21 Q. I presume you are trying to say peacetime standards, where you

22 had to function according to war-time standards?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. As regards electricity, during the four years of war, the

25 hospital did have electricity, either from the electrical grid or by way

Page 6693

1 of its own production, because you mentioned the electricity generators.

2 A. You are correct in saying that. However, one needs to remark

3 that generators that used oil provided much more electricity in terms of

4 percentage, in terms of the overall needs of the hospital.

5 Q. Thank you. Did the hospital use gas to heat its facilities?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What kind of resources were used to heat the building facility

8 during the four years of war?

9 A. Nothing was used. Or, rather, we had some generator-generated

10 electricity but that was insufficient to heat the building to any

11 reasonable degree.

12 Q. Can we agree that the rest of the city had the same problems, as

13 regards heating of housing units?

14 A. Yes. The problems we shared were very similar or maybe even more

15 severe on their side.

16 Q. Doctor, in terms of medical supplies, save for the medical

17 humanitarian organisations you mentioned, were there any other sources of

18 providing supplies to the state hospital?

19 A. No, there were no other sources.

20 Q. Were there any stocks, any reserves left behind by the JNA

21 following its departure?

22 A. Yes. There were some reserves which assisted us greatly during

23 the first year of the war, in order to assist the wounded and the sick.

24 Q. When the JNA left the hospital in 1992, the JNA did not take away

25 any of the medical equipment or stocks of medical supplies and drugs.

Page 6694

1 A. That is correct, they didn't take away anything.

2 Q. In addition to providing care to the wounded when people were

3 injured as part of the war, you also provided regular medical services to

4 people whose condition had nothing to do with the war.

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. In your report and your statement, you also deal with certain

7 percentages. Can you tell us during the four years what was the

8 percentage of the so-called regular medical services provided by the

9 hospital to Sarajevo inhabitants and what was the percentage of its

10 services lent to those who were wounded as part of the war activities?

11 A. I cannot make that distinction. I can only mention one piece of

12 information which may be relevant.

13 During the 44 months of the war, there were about 9.000

14 operations that were carried out. The percentage you asked about may

15 well be relevant, but there are services that were in charge of

16 statistics. Every checkup and operation was registered, and it could be

17 found. I don't know any figures off the cuff, because such statistics

18 did not tell me much.

19 Q. Doctor, you were not in the hospital when the Markale I incident

20 took place in February 1994; correct?

21 A. I was not in the hospital. However, when I learned of the event,

22 I arrived in the hospital in the afternoon. However, I wasn't there when

23 the first shell struck and when the initial wounded arrived.

24 Q. You were in the hospital when the Markale II incident occurred,

25 and you were on duty that day; correct?

Page 6695

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. To the best of your recollection, you explain it in your

3 statement, where you say that you heard a single artillery shot. Do you

4 stand by that?

5 A. Correct, correct. I stand by my statement.

6 Q. Please tell the Court, if you know, Dr. Najdanovic and do you

7 know what his fate was, since he was a work-mate of yours?

8 A. Dr. Najdanovic was quite older than myself. He was a professor

9 of the School of Medicine in Sarajevo. He taught surgery. His

10 speciality was the thoracic surgeon. When I studied he was one of my

11 lecturers.

12 Now, as for how he died, that's something I don't know even now.

13 Q. Please tell the Court something about the medical documents you

14 have inspected, as provided to you by my learned friend from the

15 Prosecution. Those documents are now in the table we have.

16 Let me ask you this: Did you notice in any of the documents that

17 the -- there were some handwritten remarks on the original document?

18 A. I didn't notice any such thing.

19 Q. Doctor, is it possible that while a patient is being received and

20 hospitalised during regular checkups or upon release, after the release

21 documentation was created, that there were some additions by the

22 competent physician, something added to the documents once the

23 documentation was completed?

24 A. That is possible. I didn't pay much attention to that. When I

25 went through the medical documents, I only wanted to see whether they had

Page 6696

1 the elements which would confirm its authenticity and the diagnosis

2 clearly stated in the Latin language. I didn't read everything. I

3 didn't read through every single treatment and hospital stay.

4 Q. If I understand properly, by signing the documents, you confirm

5 their authenticity, in terms of their format. Am I correct in concluding

6 that?

7 A. Yes, absolutely.

8 Q. You could not go into whether a particular document was changed

9 at any moment as opposed to its original version.

10 A. No, I didn't check that. But at a first glance, I didn't notice

11 any such instances.

12 Q. Out of the ten documents that were shown to you, doctor, that

13 were made part of the table relied on by the Prosecution, was there a

14 single document which originated from your -- your hospital?

15 A. I inspected a great deal of documents, and there were some from

16 my hospital. I don't know whether they were from that part of the table

17 you referred to, but they were documents from my hospital.

18 Q. I will conclude with the following question: Doctor, looking at

19 one such document, I can tell that you a patient had been wounded,

20 provided medical assistance and hospitalised in the Dobrinja hospital.

21 You mentioned that as the new makeshift hospital. His treatment was

22 concluded in Dobrinja --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if you would guide us to the

24 document which you are referring to so that we can follow your question

25 and the answer.

Page 6697

1 Which one is it on the chart? Which number?

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

3 Yes, Your Honour, it is a 65 ter document, 09996 of the 4th of

4 February, 1994. It is the first document in the table. And provided you

5 allow me to use some additional seconds, we can try to bring it up on our

6 screens.

7 It is 65 ter 09996.

8 Q. Doctor, when we look at that document, it is the shortest

9 document, and I used that as example only to determine the methodology

10 that was used. It was issued by the General Hospital at Dobrinja;

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. It concludes with the specialist's finding. We have a Latin

14 diagnosis. You cannot, based on this document, tell me that at any point

15 in time you saw or observed this patient Eldar Hafizovic. You did not

16 have an opportunity to treat him medically. Am I correct?

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, there is no claim whatsoever it --

19 the chart was introduced as giving comments on what is read -- what is --

20 what you can read it in. There is no claim, as far as I understand, that

21 this witness has ever seen or treated any of these patients.

22 So, therefore, I do not understand why, where this is obvious, it

23 should be asked.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So -- thank you, Your Honour. I

Page 6698

1 am of the same view. That is why I asked.

2 Q. So what do you base your certification of authenticity of this

3 document on?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if you have the same view as the

5 Prosecution, then it is not the reason to ask the question but that's a

6 reason not to ask the question because there is no disagreement about

7 that, apparently.

8 Witness, could you answer the question which was next put to you,

9 apart from the comments you gave already regarding the authenticity. Is

10 there anything to be added -- heading, a logo of Dobrinja hospital, date

11 of the report, signature of the doctor, as it is said who presently works

12 at the Sarajevo State Hospital and a stamp of the

13 Dobrinja General Hospital, is there anything in addition to that which

14 supported your conclusion that this appears to be an authentic document?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an authentic document. I

16 agree. I have no other remarks.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. By your leave, please look at the version in B/C/S, in the upper

20 right-hand side corner. Is there something in handwriting; and, if so,

21 can you read it.

22 A. It does.

23 Q. Please read it out.

24 A. "The massacre at Dobrinja."

25 Q. Is that in the English version?

Page 6699

1 A. No.

2 Q. Doctor, as part of medical documentation, should there be

3 something like this, stating "the massacre at Dobrinja"?

4 A. As regards medical documentations -- documentation and those

5 terms, the document is immaculate. As for the handwritten remark,

6 perhaps the files were statistically treated and classified as such, and

7 that is why we see the -- the note. That's what I can't say. But,

8 medically speaking, the document is perfect.

9 Q. Do you know who may have written that?

10 A. I don't.

11 Q. Do you agree with me that this should not have become a part of a

12 medical document?

13 A. Yes, narrowly speaking. But I'm simply trying to explain why

14 that could have been written. Probably to show or to indicate where this

15 person was wounded.

16 Q. However, you, on the basis of this document, which you verified

17 medically speaking, cannot say anything about where he had been wounded;

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, I can't.

20 Q. Thank you, doctor. I have no further questions of you.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would like to thank the

22 Court.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

24 Ms. D'Ascoli, I think it would be appropriate to have a full

25 translation of this document, including the handwriting.

Page 6713

1 MR. TRALDI: That I have reviewed the Chamber's decisions on the

2 adjudicated facts, and I will be restricting my examination, to some

3 extent, on the basis of facts 1234, through 1240, including not tendering

4 65 ter 5998 during examination-in-chief.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mrs. Selmanovic. Can you hear me in

7 a language you understand?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I invite you to stand and make the solemn

10 declaration -- if you -- if you have difficulties in standing, there's no

11 problem. Is it ...

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day. I solemnly declare that

13 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 WITNESS: MUNIRA SELMANOVIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mrs. Selmanovic.

17 Mrs. Selmanovic, you will first be examined by Mr. Traldi.

18 Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution. And you will find him to your

19 right.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

21 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Examination by Mr. Traldi:

23 Q. Good afternoon, ma'am. Could you please state your name for the

24 record.

25 A. Good afternoon. Munira Selmanovic.

Page 6714

1 Q. And, ma'am, do you recall giving a statement to this Tribunal in

2 2009?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd ask the Court Officer to call

5 65 ter 27970 to our screens and zoom in on the signature on the bomb left

6 side of the first page.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the number, Mr. Traldi?

8 MR. TRALDI: 27970.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

10 MR. TRALDI: If we could zoom in to the bottom left-hand side of

11 the first page, next to the word "signature" in the English.

12 Q. Ma'am, is that your signature?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I'd ask that the Court Officer call up page 9 and zoom in on the

15 signature, this time near the top of the page.

16 Is that also your signature, ma'am?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could the zooming in --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- if that's large enough for the witness to look at

20 it.

21 MR. TRALDI:

22 Q. And, ma'am, is that your signature?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was your statement read to you in preparation for your testimony

25 here?

Page 6715

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In preparation, you made three very specific corrections to your

3 statement, and I'm just going to remind you of those now.

4 In paragraph 6 of your statement, page 3 of the English and B/C/S

5 you mention that Rade Dubovina visited Novoseoci shortly before the

6 massacre on 22 September 1992 with his sister. Is it right that you are

7 not sure which of his sisters was with him?

8 A. I'm sure about Momirka -- I mean, I think it was Momirka.

9 Q. In paragraph 13, page 5 of the English and pages 4 and 5 of the

10 B/C/S, you mention some soldiers who were at Metaljka field on

11 22 September 1992. Was there also a soldier named Milenko Koprivica

12 there at that time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in paragraph 20 of your statement, page 6 of the English and

15 B/C/S, you say Momcilo Pajic boarded your bus from Novoseoci to Sarajevo

16 that day before it left to make sure none of the men from Novoseoci had

17 gotten on. Was that Momcilo Pajic or Milorad Savic who boarded the bus?

18 A. No, no. It was Milorad Savic, not Momcilo Pajic.

19 Q. Subject to those corrections, ma'am, if I were to ask you the

20 same questions you were asked when your statement was taken, would you

21 give the same answers, in substance?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And now that you have sworn to testify truthfully, do you affirm

24 the truthfulness and accuracy of this statement?

25 A. I confirm that it is true. There's nothing in it but the truth,

Page 6716

1 yes.

2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 27970, pursuant to

3 Rule 92 ter as a public exhibit.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The usual sequence is to ask the witness whether the

5 witness would give the same answers. Or is that -- I'm just, yep, I see

6 that it's there. Yes.

7 No objections, Mr. Stojanovic.

8 Mr. Registrar, the number would be ...

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P717, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: P717 is admitted into evidence.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I will now very briefly summarise the

13 witness's written evidence for the public.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You have explained to the witness the purpose.

15 MR. TRALDI: I have, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

17 MR. TRALDI: Munira Selmanovic is from Sokolac municipality. On

18 22 September 1992 she and the other Muslims from her village of Novoseoci

19 were summoned to Metaljka field.

20 When she went home to take out her disabled father she found that

21 their house had been looted and her father was covered in blood. Serb

22 soldiers separated the men, including, Mrs. Selmanovic's husband and

23 teenage son, from the women and children and some elderly people.

24 The women, children, and elderly were taken to buses and after a

25 soldier inspected the buses to make sure no men had boarded, they were

Page 6717

1 driven towards Sarajevo. Mrs. Selmanovic never saw her husband or the

2 other men detained at Metaljka again.

3 Your Honours, that completes the summary, and I will have some

4 questions now for the witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You may put them to the witness.

6 MR. TRALDI:

7 Q. Ma'am, I want to start off with some information about your

8 village of Novoseoci. Were there Serb villages nearby?

9 A. Yes, there were. There were a number of Serb villages.

10 Q. And before the war, what were your relationships like with the

11 people in those Serb villages?

12 A. We were on good terms, very good terms. No one had any negative

13 feelings towards others. We went along and agreed finally.

14 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 06863 be called to

15 our screens. It is a report dated 28 July 1992, which identifies itself

16 as being from a SRK command.

17 Q. Ma'am, I'm going to move now to the summer of 1992 and I'm going

18 read a little bit of the document for you. The document, for your

19 reference, is dated 28 July 1992, and it says about villages including,

20 Novoseoci - this is at top of the page 2 in the English - that the

21 villages are "peaceful for now. They are not causing problems for the

22 Serbian population ..."

23 And I'm going to ask you three very specific questions about this

24 document.

25 First, was there any armed conflict in Novoseoci in the summer of

Page 6718

1 1992?

2 A. No. There was no armed conflict.

3 Q. And did your village have any problems with the neighbouring Serb

4 villages at that time?

5 A. No, it did not. Never any.

6 Q. Finally, the report claims that there were extremists in

7 Novoseoci at the time. Were you aware of any extremists in Novoseoci?

8 A. No, we were not.

9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 06863 be admitted

10 into evidence as the next public Prosecution exhibit.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P718, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: P718 is admitted into evidence.

14 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that 65 ter 8292 be called to our

15 screens. It's a document dated 26 September 1992, which identifies

16 itself as coming from the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade.

17 Q. And, ma'am, I'm going to turn now to the events of

18 22 September 1992.

19 Mrs. Selmanovic, this document describes furniture being taken

20 from a home in Novoseoci by a soldier. On 22 September 1992, did you see

21 soldiers taking goods out of your own home?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And this document also refers to a soldier in the VRS "moving

24 into a house in Novoseoci" which he had chosen to live in.

25 Did you come to learn whether anyone used your house right after

Page 6719

1 you left in September 1992?

2 A. I didn't find out whether someone used it. The house was in good

3 order. Once things were over, we learned that some soldiers were

4 billeted there. I didn't learn of anyone actually living there.

5 Q. And, so, is it correct that those are Serb soldiers who were

6 billeted there during the war?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 8292 into

9 evidence as the next public Prosecution exhibit.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P719, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: P719 is admitted.

13 MR. TRALDI:

14 Q. Ma'am, you mention in paragraph 10 of your statement, now

15 Exhibit P717 on page 4 of the English and B/C/S, that you saw armed

16 soldiers when you arrived at Metaljka field on 22 September 1992. Can

17 you tell the Judges what those soldiers looked like.

18 A. The soldiers were all in uniforms. Some were olive-drab, others

19 camouflage. Some were armed while others had some kind of short rifles

20 and hand-grenades around their belt. So this is what is correct.

21 Q. I want to talk now, ma'am, about your husband.

22 You say in paragraph 23 of P717, at page 7 of the English and

23 B/C/S, that your husband was at Metaljka and his body wasn't found where

24 the other people who were there were found.

25 Have his remains ever been found?

Page 6720

1 A. Yes. He was with our other men. However, his body was only

2 found last year. His body was moved to another mass grave.

3 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd ask that the Court Officer

4 please call up 65 ter 28613. It is a document dated 27 September 1999

5 coming from Sokolac municipality. And, just for reference, this is one

6 of the two documents to which the Defence had objected.

7 Q. Ma'am, do you remember providing a copy of your husband's death

8 certificate to the Office of the Prosecutor this past November?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And is this that death certificate, ma'am?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd inquire first whether the

13 Defence maintains their objection to adding this document. But if they

14 do not, then I'd tendered it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we maintain our objection,

17 which we submitted as part of our written submission of the

18 16th of December, 2012, and the arguments we put forth regarding its

19 disclosure.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Also in view of the fact that it was provided to the

21 Prosecution rather recently? I mean, ...

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It was

23 disclosed to us on the 30th of November, as my esteemed colleague said.

24 On the 4th of December, we filed our response objecting, because even up

25 to that point in time, we were objectively unable to open the file to see

Page 6721

1 which two documents it contained. It also resulted in our being in the

2 position to object to this kind of disclosure.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- could you -- I do understand that the

4 document was provided by the witness to the Prosecution only this year,

5 if I'm --

6 MR. TRALDI: On 16 November, 2012.

7 JUDGE ORIE: 16th of November.

8 Now, could you tell us what the prejudice is you have,

9 Mr. Stojanovic. I think you asked for another 90 days to study this

10 one-page document. Is that ...

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it concerns two

12 documents that were provided at the same time --

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. At this time we're dealing with the first

14 one, 28613.

15 Could you explain to this Chamber what is the problem in six

16 weeks to look at this document and to -- what would you need more at this

17 moment? To what extent is it prejudicial if it would be added to the

18 65 ter list and admitted into evidence?

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't know whether it would

20 be detrimental or not, or prejudicial. However, it was our intention to

21 do a background check to see how it was issued, on what grounds, and to

22 also check the location where the body was found in the secondary grave.

23 All that is necessary to corroborate the accuracy and truthfulness of

24 this document. It is the only reason that we stated on the

25 14th of December.

Page 6722

1 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that this document dates from 1999

2 when the body was not yet retrieved, not yet found. So, therefore, what

3 could the comparison -- what could it reveal, which is relevant for the

4 admission of this document?

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. The

6 document was issued in 1999; that is to say, before the body was found as

7 was confirmed by the witness today. In other words, this document should

8 be accompanied by an administrative decision that the person was

9 proclaimed dead, and we all -- we need all of that to see how the whole

10 procedure developed and what was the basis for the issuance of this

11 document.

12 When the document was issued, according to our knowledge, the

13 body had still not been found.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber allows adding the document to the 65 ter

16 list. And I take it that you want to tender it as well --

17 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour, we --

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Traldi.

19 And, Mr. Registrar, the number to be assigned would be.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 28613 shall be

21 assigned Exhibit P720.

22 JUDGE ORIE: P720 is admitted into evidence.

23 Mr. Stojanovic, if you want to further explore or investigate the

24 background of this document, you may revisit the matter once you have

25 results of those investigations.

Page 6723

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

3 MR. TRALDI:

4 Q. Ma'am, in paragraph 21 of P717, at page 7 of the English and

5 B/C/S, you provide the names of certain people you last saw on

6 22 September 1992.

7 In preparation for your testimony here, did you prepare a list of

8 names as well which you provided to the Office of the Prosecutor?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd ask that 65 ter 28614 be called to

11 our screens. For reference, this is the other document to which the

12 Defence objection applied.

13 Q. Ma'am, is this the list you provided to us?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in the bottom right-hand corner of the B/C/S version, is that

16 your signature and the date you provided us with the list?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember seeing all of the people on this list at Metaljka

19 on 22 September 1992?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The first 14 people on the list all have the same last name,

22 Selmanovic. Were they all members of your husband's family?

23 A. They were all members of his family, yes.

24 Q. Amir Selmanovic, at number 12, his name is underlined. Why --

25 why is it underlined?

Page 6724

1 A. It is underlined because, out of the entire group, his body was

2 the only one that has never been found. Everyone else was found, save

3 for Amir, and that is the truth of it.

4 Q. In your statement --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt.

6 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is Amir Selmanovic, number 12, somebody other than

8 Amir Selmanovic at number 2?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: They're one and the same person?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. This is Memic's son and

12 the other person is Mustafa Selmanovic's son.

13 MR. TRALDI:

14 Q. And just for clarity, ma'am, is it Amir, son of Memic, or Amir,

15 son of Mustafa, whose body has not yet been found?

16 A. Memic's son Amir. That's the one.

17 Q. At number 45 on the list, we see Devla Karic. You say in

18 paragraph 14 of P717 that she had been sent to get her husband from

19 Metaljka. Who sent her to get her husband?

20 A. The army sent her. And Milorad Savic -- no, sorry,

21 Momcilo Pajic. They said we all had to assemble. Momcilo Pajic sent her

22 to fetch her husband.

23 Q. And other than Devla, were the people on this list all still

24 alive when you were taken to the buses that took you to Sarajevo?

25 A. They were all alive, once we were put on the buses.

Page 6725

1 Q. Did you ever see any of them alive again?

2 A. No, never. Not one.

3 Q. Now, ma'am, I have three specific questions about the list itself

4 before we move on.

5 First, who wrote down the names on the list?

6 A. I signed the list, and the list was comprised by my cousin.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the name.

8 THE WITNESS: I didn't know all of the persons on the list by

9 name, and she helped me out to fill everyone in. All of them were our

10 friends or in-laws.

11 MR. TRALDI:

12 Q. Ma'am, was that person named Muniba Colic?

13 A. Muniba Colic, yes.

14 Q. Regarding names that she helped you remember, for Sejo Pavic,

15 Hasib Colic, Adem Catic, and Ismet Hadzic, did you remember their names

16 yourself or did Muniba help remind you?

17 A. I did not understand.

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Previous translation continues] ... could.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] didn't understand, Sejo what?

20 THE INTERPRETER: [Previous translation continued] The booth did

21 not get the names. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the names.

23 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour, I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps take them one by one.

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 6726

1 Q. For Sejo Pasic did you remember that name yourself or did Muniba

2 help remind you?

3 A. Sejo Pasic, Ceko's in-law. We recalled him. He was one of ours.

4 Q. And is it right then to say that she helped you remember the name

5 during the process of putting the list together?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you remember seeing that person at Metaljka and forget his

8 name, or did you not remember seeing him?

9 A. I remember his name, and I remember that he stayed at Metaljka,

10 together with the others listed here.

11 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'm conscious of the time. There

12 are three more names in this exhibit and for continuity, I would suggest

13 that if it is amenable to everyone we deal with it now.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may put the next three names to the

15 witness.

16 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. For Hasib Colic, is that a name that you remember yourself before

18 you wrote the list, or is it a name that you and Muniba remembered when

19 you were putting the list together?

20 A. I remember Nezim Colic. Hasib Colic was his relative and I

21 recall them, yes.

22 Q. And, ma'am, I'd ask you to focus on a very specific question.

23 When you were writing the list, was it you or Muniba who remembered his

24 name?

25 A. I remember the names too. But I couldn't necessarily put a first

Page 6727

1 and last name together and she could remember her family better. She was

2 at her father's and could remember her husband's family members as well,

3 and she recalls the whole situation and the whole group better than I do.

4 Q. Then Adem Catic. Is that a name that she helped you remember or

5 one that you remembered independently?

6 A. She helped me out there. All of those who belonged to her

7 family, they are the ones she helped me with.

8 Q. And Ismet Hadzic. Is that another one that she helped you out

9 with?

10 A. Ismet Hodzic [as interpreted]. We had known him from before, and

11 she did help me out but I did know him.

12 Q. And for the other 41 people had you remembered the names

13 yourself?

14 A. Yes, I recalled all of them. Yes.

15 Q. And for those four, did you remember seeing them at Metaljka and

16 forget their names, or did you not remember seeing them?

17 A. Every person on the list was there at that moment. But I

18 couldn't exactly recall this or that person, and to help myself out, I

19 made a list. I remembered the Selmanovics and Karics who lived in our

20 village. As for the rest, they were friends and in-laws, and I needed

21 some help there. But I remember them all.

22 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, with that I tender 65 ter 28614,

23 noting that it's one of the other exhibits to which the Defence had

24 objected.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we adjourn first and that