Page 7577
1 Tuesday, 29 January 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 One preliminary question. Mr. Groome, yesterday you announced
11 that the -- that you had to disclosed three documents which, last week,
12 could not be disclosed. It was the Chamber's recollection that you had
13 four on your mind last week, and that you said -- three would be
14 disclosed, but.
15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I apologise. I misspoke
16 yesterday. All four have been disclosed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. I was wondering whether mathematics went
18 a different way.
19 We -- before the witness enters the courtroom, we have to go into
20 closed session. I would like to deal with one issue in closed session
21 before the witness enters the courtroom, although he could remain
22 standby.
23 [Closed session]
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4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
7 [Interpretation] Could you please pronounce the solemn
8 declaration, Mr. Witness.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: RM120
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
14 I will now switch back to English.
15 [In English] We are in open session but protective measures are
16 in place. The public will not see your face, the public will not hear
17 your own voice, and we'll not use your own name. We'll call you
18 "Witness RM120."
19 Whenever there is any question where you fear that answer -- your
20 answer to that question would reveal your identity, you may address me.
21 We'd then move into private session. And please be very alert on that,
22 because sometimes it's just small details that would reveal your
23 identity.
24 You will first be examined by the Prosecution, and it is
25 Mr. Shin -- it's you.
Page 7580
1 MR. SHIN: Yes. Milbert Shin appearing for the Prosecution, Your
2 Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Shin.
4 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.
5 Good morning counsel.
6 Examination by Mr. Shin:
7 Q. Good morning, Witness.
8 MR. SHIN: Perhaps as a preliminary note I would just make a
9 record that as part of the Rule 70 to protective measures for this
10 witness, there is also a representative of the government of France
11 present.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I should have mentioned that.
13 Welcome in this courtroom, Ms. Bass. You know your role. You're
14 not here for the first time, so I don't have to explain it again.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Witness, as the -- as the Judges have explained to you, there
18 are certain protective measures in place for you so I will be referring
19 to you as "witness" rather than -- or "Witness RM120" rather than your
20 actual name.
21 Could you --
22 MR. SHIN: Could I please have 65 ter 28660 pulled up on e-court,
23 please. And that is under seal.
24 Mr. Witness, could you please take a look at the screen and
25 indicate whether that is your true name and your date of birth.
Page 7581
1 A. Yes, it is. It's correct.
2 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 28660 into
3 evidence under seal.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P806, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P806 is admitted under seal.
7 MR. SHIN:
8 Q. Mr. Witness, some preliminary questions.
9 Did you provide signed statements, under oath, in response to
10 questions by the Office of the Prosecutor on two occasions. On the 8th
11 of February, 1999; and the 26th of November, 2007.
12 A. Yes, I did. I did provide answers to questions asked by the
13 Prosecutor.
14 Q. Thank you. And is it correct that you have previously testified
15 here before this Tribunal in the cases against Dragomir Milosevic;
16 Momcilo Perisic; and Radovan Karadzic?
17 A. Yes, it is correct.
18 Q. Thank you. And in preparation for your testimony in the Karadzic
19 case, did you review in a language you understand a statement that
20 amalgamated relevant portions of your 1999 statement and your testimony
21 in the Milosevic and Perisic cases?
22 A. Yes. Indeed, I did review those documents.
23 Q. And then in preparing to give evidence here today, did you have a
24 chance to review that amalgamated statement?
25 A. Yes, I did have the chance to review that statement.
Page 7582
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. SHIN: Could I please have 65 ter 28659, under seal, brought
3 up on e-court.
4 And if we could please have the French version placed on the
5 screen. And if we could turn to the next page, please.
6 Q. Mr. Witness, do you recognise this document to be that
7 amalgamated statement that you have reviewed?
8 A. Yes, I do recognise this document. This is the right one.
9 Q. Mr. Witness, were you also able to identify certain
10 clarifications or corrections that you had wished to make in reviewing
11 this document?
12 A. Yes, I identified some corrections.
13 MR. SHIN: If I could please have 65 ter 28664, also under seal,
14 brought up on e-court, please.
15 Q. Witness, could you please review the document that you have on
16 the screen, that would be on the right. Does this document reflect the
17 corrections that you wished to make to your amalgamated statement?
18 A. Yes. Yes, this document does reflect the various comments that I
19 made.
20 Q. Then with those corrections in mind, if you were asked about the
21 matters in your amalgamated statement today, would you give the same
22 answers that are contained therein?
23 A. Yes, I would give the exact same answers.
24 Q. Having taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm that the
25 information in the amalgamated statement is truthful and accurate?
Page 7583
1 A. Yes, indeed, they are truthful and accurate.
2 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter,
3 both 28659 and 28664 into evidence, under seal.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic. No objections.
7 Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 28659 shall be assigned
9 Exhibit P807.
10 And 65 ter 28664 shall be assigned Exhibit P808.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P807 and P808 are admitted under seal.
12 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, there were certain issue relating to the
13 associated exhibits but if I may I would prefer to address those later,
14 if that would be suitable to Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: It is.
16 MR. SHIN: Then if I may, with your permission, I would read a
17 brief public summary of the witness's evidence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
19 MR. SHIN: Witness RM120 served with UNPROFOR in Sarajevo from
20 1994 to 1995. The witness provides evidence that for large periods of
21 time Sarajevo was unable to function properly due to restrictions on
22 access for humanitarian convoys and shelling and sniping attacks directed
23 at its inhabitants perpetrated by Bosnian Serb forces. Sniping incidents
24 against civilians and UNPROFOR personnel were investigated by UNPROFOR
25 personnel. They concluded that the vast majority of sniping incidents in
Page 7584
1 and around Sarajevo were perpetrated by Bosnian Serb forces. UNPROFOR
2 anti-sniping measures aimed at protecting the civilian population were
3 directed almost exclusively at Serb snipers.
4 Protests about attacks on civilians were made by UNPROFOR to the
5 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and in particular letters of protest were sent
6 to the corps commander, Dragomir Milosevic. General Milosevic would
7 either claim that the Muslims fired first or would simply not respond.
8 The treatment of UN personnel taken hostage in May 1995 was also
9 protested directly to the corps commander.
10 From Witness RM120's own observations, and according to
11 information received by the witness, General Ratko Mladic controlled the
12 strategy in Sarajevo, while it was General Milosevic's job to implement
13 this vision. Colonel Indic, a liaison officer at Lukavica, acted as
14 General Mladic's eyes and exerted pressure on General Milosevic to ensure
15 that General Mladic's vision was carried out.
16 Your Honours, this concludes the summary of the witness's
17 evidence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you have any further questions to the
19 witness, you may put them to him.
20 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Q. Mr. Witness, I'd like to begin with some questions on the subject
22 of sniping.
23 In your amalgamated statement, and I refer to page 41 of the
24 English and page -- which is also 41 of the French. And that would be
25 pages 59 and 60 of the B/C/S. And this is, the amalgamated statement is
Page 7585
1 now P807.
2 Mr. Witness --
3 MR. SHIN: Excuse me one minute, Your Honours.
4 Your Honours, if I may, could I provide the witness with a copy
5 of his statement in French. I've discussed this with Mr. Lukic as well.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
7 MR. SHIN:
8 Q. Mr. Witness - and I'm referring to page 41 of your statement in
9 French - you discussed there how frequently civilians were the targets of
10 snipers, and you indicate that 66 incidents involved snipers from the
11 Bosnian Serb army held -- from the territory held by the Bosnian Serb
12 army, and six were from the territory held by the Army of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Did these figure represent all the sniping incidents in Sarajevo
15 during the time that you were there?
16 A. Well, these figures did not represent the totality of those
17 sniping incidents, but the directives that were given and the
18 investigations carried out by ballistics specialists and experts and by
19 the reports issued by various units, only those that we were absolutely
20 sure and confident of the origin were accounted for.
21 So out of the 66 coming from the Serbian sector and the six
22 incidents coming from the Bosnian sector, this figure is, of course, far
23 under the reality, but since we were not sure of the origin of the other
24 incidents, they were not accounted for.
25 Q. Is it possible, if you can, to recall approximately how many
Page 7586
1 other sniping incidents occurred during your time in Sarajevo?
2 A. Well, there were many sniping incidents, but we wanted to be
3 impartial so we could only account those that were absolutely certain of
4 the origin of these snipers because we weren't sure about the other
5 sniping incidents. We didn't know where they came from.
6 Q. Did you have an understanding of the approximate proportion of
7 casualties between the Bosnia-Herzegovina side and the Bosnian Serb side?
8 A. No, I don't have those figures. I don't know how many
9 casualties, how many injured people. But the proportion between 66 and
10 six, this is a ratio of ten, so we can assume by applying the same ratio
11 that it would be in the same order of magnitude.
12 Q. I would like to continue asking some questions regarding the
13 sniping issue, focussing on passive anti-sniping measures.
14 In your statement - and this would be page 40 of the English and
15 40 of the French and, in the B/C/S 58 to 59 - you respond to a question
16 about "passive anti-sniping barriers."
17 First -- and I'll give you a moment to find that page in your
18 statement.
19 First, you refer there to containers. Can you explain briefly
20 what that means.
21 A. In order to preclude these Serbian snipers to shoot at the
22 population or at the UNPROFOR staff, we decided to set up -- to stack up
23 containers in order to limit the visibility for these snipers. So we
24 decided to build this sort of container barrier along the main avenue, in
25 order to obstruct the visibility of the Serbian snipers.
Page 7587
1 Q. Just so that we're clear also, when you refer to "containers,"
2 what kind of containers are they?
3 A. Well, these were metal containers, a type of containers you see
4 on the big merchant ships. You know, where you have these piles of
5 containers. They're about 2 metre high for each of these containers.
6 Q. In your statement, also you mentioned that the municipality
7 assisted in this project. I take it this would be the Sarajevo
8 municipality?
9 A. That's correct. So these containers did not belong to the
10 UNPROFOR, but they -- they were present in the city of -- in the
11 municipality of Sarajevo. They belonged to the municipality and so we
12 asked the municipality whether we could use those containers.
13 Q. You also mention in your statement that these passive
14 anti-sniping barriers - in English - "bothered the Serb snipers a great
15 deal."
16 Before I ask you more about that, I would ask if 65 ter 22940 may
17 be brought up on e-court.
18 Witness, if you could please take a look at this document on the
19 screen. Do you recognise this as a document you reviewed during
20 preparation for your testimony here today?
21 A. Yes, I have seen this document before.
22 Q. We see on the first page that it is dated the 7th of April, 1995.
23 And, in the "from" box in the upper right-hand side the name
24 David Harland appears and in the subject line we see Sector Sarajevo
25 weekly situation report.
Page 7588
1 May I go briefly in private session for the next couple of
2 questions, please?
3 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
4 [Private session]
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20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
23 MR. SHIN: Could I please have page 3 of this document brought up
24 on e-court.
25 Q. Mr. Witness, in the top half of this page, we see the heading:
Page 7589
1 "Passive Anti-Sniper [sic] Project."
2 This document reads:
3 "Sector Sarajevo has prepared a large-scale project to protect
4 civilians on both sides from sniping by constructing sniper screens in
5 exposed areas."
6 First, is this the -- the project of passive anti-sniping
7 barriers that you just described?
8 A. Yes. This is the exactly the same project as the one that had
9 been decided.
10 Q. If we turn to the second paragraph there, second sentence, it
11 states:
12 "The Serb civilian authorities also expressed their support."
13 Witness, were you aware that the Serb civilian authorities
14 supported this project? And please bear in mind that if you need, for
15 your answer, we can go into private session.
16 A. I'd like to go in private session, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
18 [Private session]
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Page 7594
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
4 MR. SHIN:
5 Q. Mr. Witness, in your statement, and I refer page 36 to 38 in
6 English, French 35 to 38, B/C/S 53 to 55.
7 You describe a visit to a Serbian sniper position. You are
8 unable to describe there the precise building location, but you do state
9 that it was in the Grbavica neighbourhood.
10 Do you recall on that visit whether there were -- whether there
11 were any military targets in the vicinity of that building?
12 A. We didn't see any military targets. This visit was performed in
13 Grbavica, not very far from the Vrbanija bridge.
14 Q. And Grbavica, is that -- what kind of area is that? Is that a --
15 is it a residential area?
16 A. Yes, it is. It was a residential area in a neighbourhood in
17 Sarajevo.
18 Q. In your statement, you mention also that you were accompanied by
19 the commander of the Ilidza Brigade. Do you recall whether you had an
20 understanding at that time who the immediate superior of that commander
21 would be?
22 A. I thought that Ilidza Brigade was under the orders of the SRK,
23 Dragomir Milosevic.
24 Q. Turning to a slightly different topic now. Mr. Witness, in
25 several places in your statement, you make the point that General Mladic
Page 7595
1 set the strategy for Sarajevo and that General Milosevic was the
2 technician or the one who -- was a tactician who implemented that
3 strategy.
4 MR. SHIN: And just for reference I note for example English page
5 16, same in the French, and in the B/C/S 22 through 23.
6 Q. Witness, I would like to ask some questions about that, but,
7 first, would like to turn to some documents.
8 MR. SHIN: May I have 65 ter 10066 on e-court, please, but not
9 broadcast.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: 10.
11 MR. SHIN: 10066, please.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MR. SHIN: And I would just note that this is a document that has
14 also appeared previously in this court under designation 1D00466.
15 Q. Mr. Witness you address this document in your statement, and
16 that's English and French, page 67, B/C/S page 97. Did you also have a
17 chance to review this document in preparation for your testimony here
18 today?
19 A. Yes, I did. I did see this document.
20 MR. SHIN: Could we please go into private session for the
21 discussion of this document.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
23 [Private session]
24 (redacted)
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4 [Open session]
5 MR. SHIN: Turning to another document --
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
7 you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 MR. SHIN:
10 Q. Turning to another document. Mr. Witness, in your statement, you
11 discuss a document having to do with air bombs. This document is now
12 P581 in this case.
13 MR. SHIN: If I could please have that brought up on e-court.
14 Q. Mr. Witness, and to go through this quickly, this is a document
15 that, from your statement, and from the document itself, we see relates
16 to air bombs. And I would just focus on the last sentence of this
17 document.
18 "Before you begin with combat operations in the area Sarajevo,
19 you are to provide me with a detailed report on planning, measures, and
20 goals in order to take a decision at the level of army of the
21 Republika Srpska Main Staff."
22 And this document, as we can see, is from General Mladic to the
23 SRK Command. Does this document, as well, reflect your assessment of the
24 role of General Mladic in setting the strategy and General Milosevic in
25 implementing that strategy?
Page 7599
1 A. Yes. It does corroborate exactly the impressions that we had,
2 and it is concretely this same thought.
3 MR. SHIN: Could I please have 65 ter 09745 on e-court.
4 Q. And while we're waiting for that, Mr. Witness, this is a document
5 you also discuss in your statement. That's page 19 and 20 of the French
6 and the English, and in the B/C/S, that would be 27 through 29.
7 This document appears to be a -- appears to be dated 16th of May,
8 1995, from the SRK Command under the authority of General Milosevic at
9 the bottom of that document. Directed to the Ilidza Brigade and the
10 3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade Commands.
11 If we turn to the text here it says:
12 "Regarding the active combat operations which are in progress,
13 the Ilidza and 3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade commands will do as follows.
14 "The Ilidza Brigade will immediately prepare an aerial bomb
15 launcher with at least five aerial bombs."
16 And I'll skip to paragraph two.
17 "The 3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade Command will immediately
18 transfer their aerial bomb launcher to the Trebevic sector."
19 And the final sentence there is:
20 "I forbid use of the aforesaid assets without my order."
21 First looking at this document, does it indicate what the
22 relationship is between the command of the SRK at that level and the
23 command of the Ilidza Brigade and the 3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade?
24 A. I think that General Milosevic was given orders to his
25 subordinate, be they permanent or temporary. In this case, I don't know
Page 7600
1 if they were staff or if they were temporary subordinates.
2 Q. Okay. The -- turning to the substance of this document itself,
3 regarding the -- the order itself on preparing the aerial bomb launchers.
4 Once again bearing in mind the previous document that we saw on aerial
5 bombs, how does this document affect your assessment of General Mladic as
6 setting the strategic concept, which is another phrase you used, and
7 General Milosevic as the one who implemented it?
8 A. Could we go to private session, Your Honour?
9 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
10 Perhaps we move into closed session because we're close to the
11 moment where we have to take a break anyhow. We'd have to move into
12 closed session then, so therefore let's do it right away.
13 [Closed session]
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19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
22 Mr. Shin, please proceed.
23 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 And just rounding our previous session, the Prosecution would
25 tender 65 ter 09745 into evidence as a public exhibit.
Page 7602
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P811, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P811 is admitted into evidence.
4 MR. SHIN: Could I please have 65 ter 11002 brought up on
5 e-court.
6 Q. And, Mr. Witness, while we're waiting for that to come up, I
7 would note that this a document that you were shown during your testimony
8 in Karadzic. I think we're still waiting for the English version to come
9 up. There we go.
10 Mr. Witness, looking at this document, as I note, you were shown
11 this document during your testimony in Karadzic. And you also had a
12 chance to review it in preparation for your testimony here today; is that
13 correct?
14 A. Yes, it is absolutely correct.
15 Q. This document appears to be an order from -- if we turn to the
16 second page in the English - from General Mladic dated the 6th of
17 November, 1994, addressed to -- if we could please go back to the first
18 page in English, please. Addressed to the SRK Command, the 3rd Sarajevo
19 Infantry Brigade Command, the Ilidza Infantry Brigade Command, and the
20 Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade Command.
21 We see at the bottom of page 1 in the English, the B/C/S, the
22 entirety is one page:
23 "I have been informed that the leadership of the Serbian Sarajevo
24 local authorities met with the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
25 in Vogosca on 5 November 1994, where they adopted a decision to blockade
Page 7603
1 the UNPROFOR, capture the heavy weapons under the UNPROFOR control, and
2 use them to fire at civilian targets in the city of Sarajevo. Bearing in
3 mind that such decisions could have far-reaching negative effects on the
4 Serbian people and that these combat operations are being planned without
5 my knowledge, I hereby order.
6 "1. I forbid all activities aimed at the blockade of UNPROFOR
7 and the seizure of heavy weapons under their control without my specific
8 order and approval.
9 "2. I forbid the planning and carrying out of any offensive
10 combat operation without the approval of the Main Staff of the
11 Republika Srpska army or the implementation of operations planned without
12 the agreement and approval of the Main Staff.
13 "3. I forbid firing from large-calibre weapons at civilian
14 targets in Sarajevo without my approval.
15 "4. The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps Command [sic] and his immediate
16 subordinates are personally responsible to me for implementing this
17 order. The SRK commander will inform his immediate subordinates of this
18 order."
19 Mr. Witness, my question to you is: How does this document shed
20 light on the explanation you've given of the role that General Mladic had
21 as the strategist and the role of General Milosevic as the technician.
22 How are we to understand how those two roles may have been divided?
23 A. Could we move into private session, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
25 [Private session]
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24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
Page 7605
1 you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
3 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter
4 11002 into evidence, as a public exhibit.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P812, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P812 is admitted into evidence.
8 MR. SHIN: The Prosecution would ask that 65 ter 11242 be brought
9 up on e-court.
10 Q. And while we're waiting for that, Mr. Witness, this was also a
11 document you were shown in the Karadzic case.
12 This document which we now have on the screen appears to be an
13 order from, looking at the information on the upper left hand of the
14 document, and also in the signature block, an order from the commander of
15 the 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade, which was one of the addressees
16 in the previous document.
17 It's dated 7 November 1994, the day after the previous document.
18 This document reads:
19 "We have received a telegram" -- at the very top:
20 "We have received a telegram from the VRS Main Staff, which we
21 copy here completely, as follows ..."
22 And we can then see in the remainder of the document that the
23 order from General Mladic in the previous document is copied in its
24 entirety here, including General Mladic's signature block.
25 Mr. Witness, how does this -- looking at this document in
Page 7606
1 combination with the document before, how does this -- how does this
2 reflect on your assessment of the authority of General Mladic and the
3 effectiveness of the chain of command in the army of the
4 Republika Srpska?
5 A. I think that the authority which issued this document by
6 transmitting General Mladic's order is talking to another brigade. In
7 other words, the other brigade, although it might have been supposed to
8 receive the first document, was temporarily or permanently under said
9 brigade. But it shows, perhaps, that outside of the SRK there might have
10 been units which were immediately placed under the authority of
11 General Mladic and that for occasional jobs or assignments, were put
12 under the operational command of the SRK. I don't have a clear memory of
13 the organisational chart at this stage, but the fact that this document
14 is -- is sent down shows that everybody had to be well aware of the order
15 given by General Mladic.
16 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, we would tender 65 ter 11242 into
17 evidence, as a public exhibit.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P813, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P813 is admitted into evidence.
21 MR. SHIN: And I would request that we go into private session
22 for the next document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 7607
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11 Pages 7607-7608 redacted. Private session.
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Page 7609
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15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
22 you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
24 MR. SHIN:
25 Q. Mr. Witness, at several points in your statement, you describe
Page 7610
1 the role of Lieutenant-Colonel Indic. For example, at -- and this would
2 be English page 10, French page 10, B/C/S page 14. You note that
3 Colonel Indic was a liaison officer. And also at 16 in French and
4 English, B/C/S 22, you discuss a dual role, dual -- I'm sorry. Let me
5 say that again. Dual role in -- that Colonel Indic had with respect to
6 General Milosevic.
7 I'd like to ask you some questions about this dual role, but
8 first I'd like to turn to a document.
9 MR. SHIN: If I could please have 15756 brought up in e-court.
10 And while we're waiting for that, Your Honours, the specific
11 document is referenced in 69 of the English and French in the statement,
12 B/C/S, page 100.
13 We have the -- the document on the screen now. And this appears
14 to be a memo dated the 21st of March, 1995, from A major Fraser. And
15 perhaps we should go into private session for the next few questions.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
17 [Private session]
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 7611
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7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
15 you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
17 MR. SHIN:
18 Q. In paragraph 1 it states:
19 "Colonel de Kermabon met with General Milosevic at the
20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps headquarters at Lukavica."
21 And we see in the document several topics are discussed. I would
22 focus on two of them. In paragraph 2, which has the heading "Security of
23 the Airport," there is the sentence:
24 "After some discussion, General Milosevic said he would ensure
25 that his forces around the airport refrain from firing on aircraft."
Page 7612
1 As far as you recall, do you know whether this part of the
2 discussion involved an admission on the part of General Milosevic that
3 his forces had, indeed, fired on aircraft?
4 A. Yes, yes. This is a concrete acknowledgment of something that
5 happened on the 19th of March. There were other firing incidents of --
6 of firing against UN aircrafts.
7 Q. Now, turning to paragraph 4, the section titled: "Weapon
8 Collecting Points (WCP)."
9 This would be -- yes, thank you, that's page 2. We see this
10 paragraph begins:
11 "Colonel de Kermabon stated that during the past few days a
12 number of weapons have been removed without permission from Lukavica
13 WCP."
14 It goes onto say a little later in that paragraph:
15 "General Milosevic said he was not aware of the situation but he
16 believed that the weapons were in the Hrasnica factory.
17 Lieutenant-Colonel Indic replied to most of the questions about this
18 subject; however, both officers of difficulty describing where the
19 weapons were."
20 Now, if we turn to the bottom of this document, we see in
21 paragraph 7 which is headed "Assessment," the following sentences:
22 "Both Serbian officers had difficulty answering questions about
23 the WCP. They appeared unsure about their position and the whereabouts
24 of the weapons. They continually tried to change the subject and deflect
25 the conversation away from the issues raised by Colonel de Kermabon.
Page 7613
1 General Milosevic, for the first time, appeared more dominant in the
2 meeting with Lieutenant-Colonel Indic. On several occasions, he cut the
3 lieutenant-colonel off and made decisions like the airport very quickly.
4 This was uncharacteristic of the Comd," which I believe we can understand
5 to be commander, "who has been seen by this author for nine months."
6 First, and I'll ask the question. You may consider whether you
7 would wish to go to private session for the answer.
8 Does the assessment that we've just seen, how does that compare
9 with your assessment of the relationship dynamic between
10 General Milosevic and Colonel Indic, in particular, the reference to
11 Colonel Indic having a dual role.
12 A. Yes, could we go to private session, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
14 [Private session]
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 7614
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7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
18 you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
20 MR. SHIN:
21 Q. So, once again, Mr. Witness, turning back to paragraph 4, where
22 there is a discussion of removal of weapons from the WCP. Was the
23 removal of weapons from the WCP, was that in violation of an agreement?
24 A. Yes, yes. This -- this is a patent violation of agreement.
25 These WCPs, there were eight of them on the Serb side, and one on the --
Page 7615
1 or two on the Bosnian side, and so these WCPs should have been monitored
2 and controlled by the UN forces, but in very difficult conditions, I
3 hasten to add.
4 Q. And just so we're clear, can you recall exactly which agreement
5 this was in violation of?
6 A. It's an agreement that had been concluded in the course of
7 February 1994, if my memory serves me well, in order to mandate that
8 weapons of a calibre higher than 20 millimetres had to be extracted from
9 a total exclusion area, 20 kilometres around Sarajevo, and some of these
10 weapons had been collected in such WCPs or Weapons Collection Points
11 placed under the control of the UN forces.
12 Q. Mr. Witness, do you recall that you were asked in -- during
13 cross-examination in the Karadzic case, you were asked by Mr. Karadzic
14 about a document referred to as a "protocol."
15 Do you recall that, first?
16 A. Yes, I do remember that.
17 Q. And I would -- this -- the citation in the Karadzic case is
18 T.13178, line 6 through 16.
19 Mr. Witness, when Mr. Karadzic was asking you about this document
20 called a protocol, did he show you that document?
21 A. I don't remember seeing this document. I don't think I was ever
22 shown that document.
23 Q. Now, not being shown that document, what document did you think
24 that Mr. Karadzic was referring to when he called this document that he
25 was talking about a protocol?
Page 7616
1 A. As far as I'm concerned, the only document that I can remember is
2 the document regarding the Weapons Collection Points, or WCPs.
3 Q. And during your time that you were in Bosnia, did you -- what was
4 your understanding about whether the Bosnian Serbs could withdraw weapons
5 from the WCPs?
6 A. Well, in this -- in that protocol, my conclusion was that none of
7 both parties could withdraw weapons from the WCPs. Unfortunately, on
8 several occasions, Serb forces did withdraw weapons within the WCPs and
9 used them to shoot at Sarajevo.
10 Q. And just so that we're clear, when you refer, as you just did, to
11 a document called a protocol, what document are you referring to?
12 A. I think that it is the document signed with the authorities --
13 the UN authorities.
14 Q. In preparing for your evidence here today, did you have a chance
15 to see a document that was called "protocol of understanding," which was
16 a different document from the one you've just described?
17 A. Yes. While preparing today, I did see this document.
18 Q. And this other document, had you ever seen it before?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. SHIN: And, Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter
22 15756 into evidence as a public exhibit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] Exhibit P815,
25 Your Honours.
Page 7617
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the one on our screen, Mr. Shin, or is it --
2 MR. SHIN: No. It's -- we have not brought it up in e-court.
3 We --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is that -- because you're asking all kind of
5 questions to the witness about documents he had seen. We've got no idea
6 what you showed him in preparing. Did you or ...
7 MR. SHIN: Yes. Of course, Your Honours. Just so that we can be
8 clear then, could I please have -- the document that's been in evidence
9 as D112 brought up on e-court, please. And I would request to turn
10 directly to page 2 of that document.
11 JUDGE ORIE: One second. One second, please. One second before
12 we proceed, as you suggest.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We want D112 on our screen. Whereas, I think I
15 showed some interest in knowing the document you just tendered, which,
16 apparently, is then not the same, because you don't have to tender D112
17 as it is in evidence.
18 MR. SHIN: Yes. You're absolutely correct, Your Honours. I had
19 overlooked tendering that document which is why it comes at this point in
20 the questioning. But that is not the document that we we've been
21 discussing in terms of agreements and protocols.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You -- the document you tendered. You said we had
23 not seen it. You have asked questions about what the witness had seen or
24 had not seen and what he saw for the first time.
25 Now, for the Chamber, it would be interesting to know what these
Page 7618
1 documents are, in order to understand the testimony.
2 MR. SHIN: Yes. Absolutely, Your Honours. I'm sorry if I wasn't
3 clear. The -- one set of questions had leapt into a nub into the other.
4 In order to be clear which documents the witness had seen in the last few
5 questions, I would like to turn to D112 so that Your Honours can be
6 completely clear in which documents the witness was talking about.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if that is the one, of course, we could have
8 it on our screens, but we are somewhat familiar with it.
9 MR. SHIN: Yes. And --
10 JUDGE ORIE: And then we have -- so what you have shown the
11 witness is D112, I understand. And, at the same time, what you are
12 tendering is something totally different.
13 MR. SHIN: If I could just clarify, I had been asking about 15756
14 where the issue had arisen about retrieving weapons from the Weapons
15 Collection Points, and I had segued into a set of questions relating to
16 what the underlying agreement that governed that kind of action was, and
17 I had neglected to turn directly to the specific agreement in order to
18 clarify this second half of the questions. And I apologise for that,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the first thing therefore you'd like to do
21 is what we have seen on our screen previously is to tender 15756 which
22 meanwhile has been provided number P815.
23 Let's first decide on admission. P815 is admitted into evidence.
24 And I now do understand that the questions you asked the witness
25 about, whether he had seen it, and where he said he had not seen it at
Page 7619
1 the time, you were referring to D112.
2 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours. And in particular to pages on the
3 e-court of three -- I believe four and five of that document. So I can
4 quickly --
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's the protocol --
6 MR. SHIN: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- which is dated somewhere in February, I think.
8 And the cover page being a document something in August, I think.
9 That's ...
10 MR. SHIN: Yes. The witness did not see the cover page.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Has not seen the cover page. So he has not been
12 shown D112 but only a portion of that.
13 MR. SHIN: Yes, that's correct.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The last two pages --
15 MR. SHIN: The last two pages. But also the one page signed
16 points of agreement. Which is the --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look at D112. And let's see what was
18 shown to him and what was not shown to him.
19 MR. SHIN: If I could on this exhibit, page 3 brought up, please.
20 Q. Mr. Witness, is this page the exclusion zone agreement that you
21 had referred to that forbid the withdrawal of heavy weapons from the
22 WCPs?
23 A. Yes, it is. It is the agreement signed by Mr. Karadzic and the
24 boss of the UN.
25 Q. And if we turn to the next page, we see this document has a
Page 7620
1 different name, "Protocol of Understanding."
2 Is this the document that you referred to as having seen for the
3 first time?
4 A. Indeed. This document I saw it first when it was shown to me for
5 the proofing of this testimony. I had seen the previous document but not
6 this one.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear now.
8 MR. SHIN: Yes. And, once again, Your Honours, my apologies for
9 not having been more clear about that.
10 If I could, please -- if we could please go into -- actually,
11 we'll remain in public session and go to document 65 ter 09321, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You're close to the 90 minutes you requested,
13 Mr. Shin. You are aware of that.
14 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours. I will try to go as quickly as I
15 can to -- to adhere to that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's understood. That's the good intentions
17 always expressed by everyone. When will you finish? That's the more
18 relevant question.
19 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if I may have 15 minutes, please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We have ten minutes until the break. If you would
21 try to conclude within those ten minutes.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. SHIN: Yes, of course, Your Honours. Document 09321.
24 Q. Mr. Witness, this appears to be a memo from David Harland to
25 John Ryan dated 20th July 1995.
Page 7621
1 And, unfortunately, we'll have to go into private session,
2 please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session, please.
4 [Private session]
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
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Page 7622
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Page 7623
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5 (redacted)
6 [Open session]
7 MR. SHIN: Could I please have -- I'm sorry.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
9 you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Mr. Shin, I noticed that we had a bit of a late start in that
12 last session. We'll take the break at 11.30, so that's the time you've
13 still got.
14 MR. SHIN: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
15 Could I have 65 ter 12134 brought up on e-court, please.
16 Q. Mr. Witness, the -- we're still waiting for the English.
17 If you take a look at the screen, did you have -- do you
18 recognise this document as a -- one that you reviewed in preparation for
19 your testimony here today?
20 A. Yes, indeed, I do recognise it.
21 Q. Now, in your amalgamated statement - and I would refer to page 10
22 of the English and French and page 14 of the B/C/S - you mention a
23 liaison officer, Colonel Indic, but you also mention that there was
24 another one named Brane but you could not remember his surname. When you
25 met this Brane, do you recall what his rank was?
Page 7624
1 A. I might be mistaken. I thought that he was a lieutenant-colonel.
2 Maybe I'm mistaken. I don't know anymore. The first name was, I'm sure,
3 Brane. But his last name I don't know or I don't remember anymore.
4 Q. Now, if we take a look at this document, we see that it's dated
5 29 October 1993. So outside of your time-period. But I'll focus my
6 questions on -- on factors that -- that would not require your specific
7 knowledge of the events.
8 We see in the first paragraph -- I'm sorry, let me back up and
9 say: This document we see in the upper left-hand corner is from the SRK
10 command group for co-operation with UNPROFOR Command. And we see in
11 page 2 of the English and just that one page in B/C/S, that it is signed
12 by Major Milenko Indic.
13 Now on this first paragraph it states:
14 "Captain Brane Luledzija has been appointed a permanent member of
15 the staff for assisting Serbs in Sarajevo. Absolutely no opinions were
16 sought prior to this. Please state your view."
17 Now, first, we see that this letter -- this document is called a
18 daily report and that it is addressed to the Main Staff of the Army of
19 the Republika Srpska. Does looking at this document refresh your
20 recollection as to whether this Captain Brane Luledzija is a liaison
21 officer named Brane that you had met during your time in Sarajevo?
22 A. I think, with all reservation about the first name, that's
23 probably him. But I couldn't say so 100 percent.
24 Q. And we may have other evidence on this, Your Honours.
25 The -- when we look at this first paragraph and the sentences I
Page 7625
1 just read, how -- is it -- can you tell us how that bears on your
2 understanding of the role of Colonel Indic and the relationship among
3 General Milosevic, General Mladic, and Colonel Indic?
4 A. I think that reading this document signed at the time by the
5 Major then-Lieutenant-Colonel Indic, one might think that his role was
6 beyond his rank, meaning that with the SRK, he had a control position
7 that was granted to him by an external authority of a higher level.
8 Thus, Major Mladic [as interpreted] was, indeed, the one who, with
9 General Milosevic, was a control supervisor, he was controlling and
10 monitoring the thought and the action of General Milosevic.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
12 MR. SHIN: And, Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter
13 12134 as a public exhibit.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P817, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P817 is admitted into evidence.
17 I put on the record that page 48, line 4, there seems to be an
18 error where Major Mladic should read Major Indic.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. SHIN: Thank you very much Your Honours.
21 Could we please go into private session now.
22 JUDGE ORIE: For the last three minutes, we move into private
23 session, Mr. Shin.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 7626
1
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8
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11 Pages 7626-7627 redacted. Private session.
12
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Page 7628
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4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 [Closed session]
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 7629
1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
5 [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, you will now be cross-examined by
6 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is a Defence counsel for Mr. Mladic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
10 You have the French version of your statement in front of you.
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Please, whenever you feel the need to use it, do take it and find
13 the paragraphs that we shall be referring to. And, of course, the
14 statement will be up on the screen as well.
15 First of all, the statement that we would like to see is P807.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Not to be shown to the public.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Apologies, Mr. Lukic. Please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 When you said not to be shown. We don't see it on the screen. I
21 think you mentioned not to be shown outside the courtroom.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I meant not to be shown to the public and that
23 triggered --
24 MR. LUKIC: So can we have this.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- another discussion in relation to the protective
Page 7630
1 measures, which is separate from this one.
2 Yes, please --
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- continue.
5 MR. LUKIC: First, we need page 5 in French; page 5 in English;
6 and page 6 in B/C/S versions. Or whatever can be put on the screen.
7 Q. [Interpretation] You can see only two statements on the screen.
8 We have the B/C/S and the English versions.
9 Would you be so kind as to use your hard copy in French, and I
10 will always tell you what page we are referring to and approximately
11 which paragraph. So it is French page 5, paragraph 2, that you should
12 refer to.
13 A. Very well.
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we move into private session.
21 [Private session]
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 7631
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11 Page 7631-7640 redacted. Private session.
12
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Page 7641
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 [Open session]
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And in e-court could we take a look
8 at --
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would kindly ask to call up
12 Exhibit P334.
13 Q. First of all, let me ask you. This is an agreement that was
14 concluded before your arrival in Sarajevo. It's dated the 5th of June,
15 1992.
16 In your work, were you made aware of the existence and substance
17 of this agreement?
18 A. Yes. I knew that there had been an agreement at the time when
19 the airport was placed under the authority of the UN forces.
20 Q. Were you aware of the substance of the agreement, the content?
21 A. I can't be positive, but I'm sure that I must have seen this in
22 the bundle of documents I had access to. But I can't really tell you for
23 certain that I had seen this one before, but I believe so.
24 Q. We need page 2 in the English version. We also need page 2 in
25 B/C/S. Unfortunately, we don't have the French version.
Page 7642
1 You can follow this in English, isn't that right, you can follow
2 what is written here?
3 A. Yes, I can follow.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need paragraph 6.
6 Q. We see that UNPROFOR takes upon itself the obligation to control
7 all incoming personnel, cargo, and other items to ensure that no war-time
8 materials are imported and that the airport's opening is not otherwise
9 abused in any way.
10 At the time, were you aware of the content of this paragraph in
11 the agreement?
12 A. Yes, I was aware of that.
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 Let me check. Are we in -- in private session here or?
19 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open [realtime translation read in error
20 "private"] session.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So we have never been aware of
22 the --
23 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid whatever misunderstanding, the
24 transcript now reads that we are in private session, but I said that we
25 are in open session.
Page 7643
1 Please proceed. If there's any need for us to go into private
2 session, just let us know.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to go to private
4 session, please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
6 [Private session]
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
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Page 7644
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Page 7645
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2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Could you answer the question, whether you're aware of the
10 location, as pointed out by Mr. Lukic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We knew that there was a tunnel.
12 We knew that it was in the Dobrinja area without knowing exactly
13 specifically of its location. And the UNPROFOR trucks that were going by
14 on the road were not concerned with knowing if there was an entrance or
15 an exit of a tunnel. That was absolutely not their assignment.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Do you believe that that was not the task of UNPROFOR, even in
18 this situation when UNPROFOR had information to that effect, that
19 military equipment and materiel, arms, and ammunition were being carried
20 through the tunnel?
21 A. As I told you earlier, we had knowledge of a rumour on the
22 existence of the tunnel without knowing if it was a reality, nor its
23 exact reality, and without being concerned nor knowing what was going
24 through the tunnel.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- could we -- Mr. Lukic, we could spend ages
Page 7646
1 on it.
2 Could I ask you a very direct question: Was it convenient not to
3 know any more than you knew on the basis of rumours?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was not the assignment that
5 was mine. I had received several tasks. I knew the protocol. And to be
6 abrupt, I should say that I should not have tried to know if this tunnel
7 that was talked about by everybody, what was happening inside that, that
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's not exactly an answer to my question. My
11 question was whether it was convenient not to know. And, of course, if
12 you would have had a duty to find out, you might have had to perform that
13 duty. But was it convenient for you not to know what was happening in
14 the tunnel and the exact location of the tunnel?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. If I had been given the order
16 to get more data, I would have done so, but it's not a convenience or
17 not. For me, I had assignments. I had tasks. I never thought that I
18 could use this argument in order to fulfil my assignment.
19 I might not have understood you exactly, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, sometimes in a complex situation where you are
21 dealing with two factions which are constantly having trouble with each
22 other, I can imagine that, if such a tunnel would exist, that it would
23 perhaps be used for several purposes which might have complicated the
24 situation and that, therefore, it may be sometimes convenient not to
25 know. Because it would complicate many of your other discussions.
Page 7647
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is certain that it was outside
2 of my purview and that it was more convenient, indeed, not to be
3 concerned with it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll move on.
7 Q. Now we would need page 11 in the French version, first paragraph,
8 of your statement. And in the English version, page 10, last paragraph,
9 first sentence. And in B/C/S, page 15, first paragraph.
10 On this page, this is what you say:
11 "There was not a clear line of separation between the parties."
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, my apologies for interrupting. And my
22 apologies, Mr. Lukic.
23 But we're in open session and I think there may be
24 some [Overlapping speakers] --
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]...
Page 7648
1 MR. SHIN: -- keep this in mind.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we should keep that in mind.
3 Mr. Lukic, you will put the next question to the witness so,
4 therefore, it's for you to consider whether or not to remain in open
5 session.
6 MR. LUKIC: I will move on so we don't -- there is no necessity
7 to move to a closed session, or private.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Sir, you told us on page 11 of the French version of your
11 statement, first paragraph - page 10 of the English version, last
12 paragraph, and page 15, first paragraph - you told us about these
13 provocations that had been staged. Staged events and provocations. And
14 you said that you tried to avoid that.
15 Who was it that was staging events? What is your recollection?
16 Which party was the one staging events?
17 A. Would you mind specifying? I -- I do not understand the term
18 "events." What is it about exactly?
19 Q. Just a moment, please. This is what you say:
20 "Given the complexity of the situation and the fact that no clear
21 dividing line separated the forces present, (redacted)
22 (redacted) for making methodical and full reports which would always be
23 submitted to me. It was a means of having as precise an objective a view
24 as possible of what could have happened and avoid being taken in by
25 provocations or staged events."
Page 7649
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
2 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, my apologies for interrupting again.
3 But bearing in mind that we are in open session and the fact that
4 this has come up a couple of times, perhaps it might be safer to take a
5 different course.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
7 [Private session]
8 (redacted)
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11 [Closed session]
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Page 7651
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16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
19 Mr. Lukic, you may continue.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Q. Sir, let us go to page 11 of your statement in French,
22 paragraph 2. Page 11, second paragraph, of the English version. And
23 page 15, second paragraph of the B/C/S version.
24 You talk about incidents, the aim of which was to create a
25 specific atmosphere. You said that they started at the local level. And
Page 7652
1 then you say:
2 "However, the incidents aimed against UNPROFOR troops or aimed at
3 the suffering of the population were never launched at -- were never the
4 result of the local initiative. This was conducted by the very top of
5 the Bosnian Serbs. I do not believe that a soldier would shoot at an
6 UNPROFOR soldier or would use guns, artillery, or mortars on his own
7 without direct authorisation from the authorities in Pale."
8 You say here:
9 "In my view, in my opinion, I do not believe."
10 My question is: Did you ever see an order that regulates these
11 issues that -- that regulated these issues, the issues of the opening of
12 fire at the time when you were holding that position?
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted) - felt that killing an UNPROFOR soldier or retrieve weapons at
16 collection points were acts of a very high resonance. And as indicated
17 on several occasions, we did not think that the overall strategy was
18 coming from the Commander-in-Chief --
19 Q. Would you pause for a moment, please.
20 We have all that in your statement. My question had to do with
21 the order. I'm not sure whether you're getting the right translation.
22 When I say "order," that is something which a unit or a superior
23 officer issues to his subordinates. Had you ever seen, did you ever see
24 an order ordering the opening of fire? That is my question.
25 The answer should be, I saw such an order; or I didn't see such
Page 7653
1 an order.
2 A. I really don't see how I could have seen such an order which
3 would have been given.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I take it that you did not
5 see any such orders.
6 Were you in touch with the local level?
7 A. What do you mean by "local"?
8 Q. You actually define it here as "the local level."
9 You say it was never the result of a local initiative. Were you
10 ever in direct contact with the local level that you referred to here,
11 the level which actually launches a local initiative?
12 A. In the statement, what is meant by "the local level" is the level
13 of the commander of the SRK.
14 Q. I see. So as the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was
15 the local level, in your perception, the commander of the
16 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps could not have and never issued an order for the
17 opening of fire and the use of artillery weaponry that was comprised
18 within his corps.
19 A. Could we move into private session?
20 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
21 [Private session]
22 (redacted)
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19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] You said that Indic could not command Milosevic.
25 I assume that he could not replace him either; is that correct?
Page 7658
1 A. [No interpretation]
2 Q. General Milosevic was also in touch with the officers of the
3 command for Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first have the answer.
5 You were asked whether Indic could replace Milosevic. I think
6 your answer was that he could not; is that correct?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. I said
8 absolutely not.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. [Interpretation] My next question was: General Milosevic was in
12 contact with the officers of the command for Bosnia and Herzegovina; is
13 that correct?
14 A. It's not up to know [as interpreted] to know who he was in
15 contact with. It was up to him and not up to me. But normally a
16 military chief is, of course, in contact with his superiors.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any confusion here?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I think so.
19 JUDGE ORIE: There is confusion.
20 Witness, the question was whether you have any knowledge of
21 Mr. Indic being in contact -- oh, yes. Yes, I made a mistake.
22 Whether you have any knowledge about General Milosevic having
23 contact with officers of the command for Bosnia and Herzegovina. So not
24 the Serb side, but ...
25 MR. LUKIC: Of command of Bosnia -- for Bosnia-Herzegovina but
Page 7659
1 for UNPROFOR.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, UNPROFOR.
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That does not appear clearly on the transcript.
5 Perhaps you rephrase the question now in its final version,
6 Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 Q. In contrast, Indic was never in touch with the officers of the BH
15 UNPROFOR Command.
16 A. I can't answer that question. I was not informed.
17 Q. Can you now look at page 13, paragraph 2, of your statement.
18 That is in the French version, page 13 of the English version. Page
19 18 --
20 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not hear what
21 paragraph of the B/C/S version.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You say --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, what paragraph is it in the B/C/S
25 version?
Page 7660
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 18, paragraph 5.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. The interpreter missed it.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: Maybe I misspoke.
5 (redacted)
6 MR. LUKIC: Do we have to?
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
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20 [Open session]
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
24 We adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
25 30th of January, at 9.00 in the morning in this same Courtroom III.
Page 7663
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 30th day of
3 January, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.
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