1 Friday, 1 February 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 There was one preliminary to be raised by the Prosecution, if I
12 am well informed.
13 Ms. Bolton.
14 MS. BOLTON: Good morning, Your Honours.
15 There are actually two preliminaries, Your Honour. The first is
16 just an update with respect to the CLSS review of the video-clips. It's
17 not going to be completed today, and what I'd propose we do is mark the
18 clips for identification and they would then be introduced once CLSS has
19 had the opportunity to verify their accuracy, and if there are any errors
20 in the transcripts we'll incorporate those corrections into them.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We don't need the witness for them?
22 MS. BOLTON: Pardon me?
23 JUDGE ORIE: We don't need the witness for them.
24 MS. BOLTON: No, I don't think so for that exercise.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So, then -- yes?
1 MS. BOLTON: And the second issue had to do, Your Honour, with
2 the Prosecution's position on Zvornik which Your Honour raised yesterday.
3 And what I would propose to do in that respect is that it is our position
4 that evidence relating to Zvornik is admissible, and in particular, in
5 relation to counts 7 and 8 of the indictment and also to prove the JCE
6 which is alleged to have commenced starting in October 1991.
7 I have drafted some written submissions on those issues,
8 Your Honours, and rather than to take up Court time I would propose to
9 make written submissions which I could file on Monday.
10 MR. IVETIC: I guess we will have to do written submission,
11 Your Honour, although I note that neither Zvornik nor Bijeljina, the
12 other topic that was the subject of the e-mail of last night, neither of
13 those are on the Rule 65 ter summary for this witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton.
15 MS. BOLTON: With respect to the 65 ter summary issue,
16 Your Honour, the issue of Zvornik is addressed at length in the witness's
17 92 ter statement which, according to the guidance, constitutes notice for
18 the purposes of court and there is no need, according to the guidance, to
19 amend the 65 ter summary, and the related clips to paragraphs 23 and 24
20 of the witness's amalgamated statement contain the references to
21 Bijeljina. And this was also the subject of testimony from the witness
22 in the Karadzic case which, obviously, has been provided to the Defence.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Having heard these observations and submissions,
25 let's proceed.
1 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
2 I meanwhile use the time for the following: The Chamber would
3 like to put on the record the correspondence concerning the comment chart
4 presented to the witness yesterday. The Prosecution on the
5 25th of January had informally communicated a request to the Chamber to
6 present Mr. Bell with this chart, and in informal communication on the
7 28th of January the Chamber had granted the Prosecution permission to do
8 so as it did yesterday.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Bell.
11 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated] Good morning, Your
13 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you that you are still bound
14 by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your
15 testimony yesterday. And Ms. Bolton will now continue her
17 WITNESS: MARTIN BELL [Resumed]
18 MS. BOLTON: Yes. I just wonder if we have the hard copy of the
19 witness's statement available for him again, please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm not aware of it being returned, but could
21 we make sure that the witness has a hard copy of his statement.
22 We can get started, I think. It's taken care of, Ms. Bolton.
23 MS. BOLTON: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
24 Examination by Ms. Bolton: [Continued]
25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bell.
1 A. [Microphone not activated] Good morning.
2 Q. Let me remind you again of the importance of you and I pausing
3 between question and answer.
4 Now, near the end of your testimony yesterday, sir, you remarked
5 that the Bosnian Serbs had heavy weapons in abundance.
6 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a --
7 MR. IVETIC: The microphone of the witness is not turned on,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Bolton.
10 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. You had remarked about the Bosnian Serbs having heavy weapons in
12 abundance. Could you comment briefly in the early part of the war on the
13 Bosnian Muslims access to heavy weapons?
14 A. So far as I could tell, the -- the Bosnian Muslims had very
15 little access to -- to heavy weapons. The weapons, of course, were held
16 in -- in arsenals throughout the former Republic of Yugoslavia, and the
17 Serbs planned better and they had the access. And if I went, for
18 instance, to see my friend who was in charge of the defence of Grbavica
19 on the Serbian side of the lines, even there they had their own tank.
20 They were well armed.
21 Q. Thank you. One of the video-clips you had the opportunity to
22 review and which is the subject of a commentary in Exhibit P83 was a
23 video you did on the fall of Foca in April of 1992. And in that video
24 you remarked:
25 "Until now, the two sides have lacked the heavy weapons to do
1 this kind of damage to each other."
2 Which warring party was using heavy weapons in Foca?
3 A. So far as I can tell, the fighting in Foca was done mostly
4 with -- with light weapons. It was one of these places with -- with a
5 wooden old town which incinerated very easily. I suppose at the very
6 start of the war the heavy weapons were held by the JNA in their -- in
7 their barracks, and at the very start of the war they were not used.
8 Although, I remember quite early on being pinned down by gun-fire. This
9 was sometime in May/June 1992 in the main street in Sarajevo, and there
10 appeared to be some heavy weapons being used against us at that time.
11 Q. I'm going to return to the siege, which is what we were
12 discussing yesterday at the end of proceedings. I'm going to ask that
13 you watch a video-clip.
14 MS. BOLTON: It is 65 ter 22509H, and I will ask in a moment for
15 it to be played and to stop it at the 41 second mark.
16 Q. And this, Mr. Bell, is a video-clip that you discuss at
17 paragraphs 84 to 86 of your statement describing visiting two batteries
18 of mountain guns north-west of Pale in January 1993.
19 MS. BOLTON: So if that could be played, please.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 "Martin Bell: Early in the war he was named a war criminal by
22 the Bosnian government which he resents. He never killed anyone he says
23 in his whole life. Now he has it in his power to flatten Sarajevo from
24 five miles away, with his 100 millimetre canon by direct or indirect
25 fire. If it comes to a bombing of the Serbs as some Americans had
1 suggested, his guns would be as prime a target for them as the city is
2 for him."
3 MS. BOLTON:
4 Q. We've paused the video at the 41 second mark and you can see two
5 buildings in the foreground of the image before you. There is
6 specifically in the centre of the screen a shorter white building and
7 next to it a taller building that is blackened on top. Do you recognise
8 those two structures?
9 A. It's a murky image but they look like the parliament building and
10 the parliament office building, which was heavily damaged.
11 Q. And having personally visited the battery sites, can you comment,
12 please, on the line of sight that Colonel Bartula had into the city from
13 those positions?
14 A. Colonel Bartula had unusually for a battery commander a direct
15 line of sight on the potential target, but he was adamant that he had not
16 been using his guns. I gained access to this place with considerable
17 difficulty. I had to describe myself as the head of the BBC delegation,
18 I think. And he changed his mind and he gave us a very, I thought,
19 moving account of his own emotions at being accused of being a war
20 criminal in his own country.
21 As I was trying to explain yesterday, it was very important to
22 us, even at some risk to ourselves, to do as much as we could on that
23 side of the lines. But I saw there was quite a lot of fighting going on
24 around us, especially as darkness fell and it was small arms fire around
25 the perimeter of the colonel's position.
1 Q. Going back to my question, which was on the issue of the line of
2 sight, you indicated Colonel Bartula had a direct line of sight. From
3 where he was positioned, would he have been able to see where any shots
4 he fired landed within the city and to make corrections, if necessary?
5 A. Not if they had landed on the -- the eastern part of the city.
6 You get the view there of more of the central part. And it would be
7 common for an artillery commander to have a forward observer, but he was
8 so well-placed on that hill-side he didn't need one. He could see
9 where -- if he wished to shoot he could see the target, most of it.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. BOLTON: Your Honours, this is an associated exhibit.
12 However, it's now been identified further by the witness, and I'd ask
13 that it be marked for identification and admitted in evidence.
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, are we relying upon the audio? Because
15 we were unable to follow the audio when it was being played. So if we
16 are relying upon the audio, I would object. If we are not relying upon
17 the audio, then I would not object.
18 MS. BOLTON: Your Honour, it was just a question of adjusting the
19 volume in order to be able to hear the audio. I was able to hear it once
20 I turned up my volume.
21 JUDGE ORIE: What about translation, transcript? Do you rely on
22 it; do you not? That was the question.
23 MS. BOLTON: We do rely on it, and it is one of the videos that
24 is being reviewed by the CLSS who will determine the -- verify the
25 accuracy of the transcript that is available, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what -- for the Chamber -- at this moment,
2 let's MFI it and then see whether it's sufficiently -- if you want us to
3 decide on a video-clip with audio, then at least we should know what it
4 is before we can decide. And to say, Switch on your volume a bit higher
5 and then you may hear it -- has the accused heard it?
6 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I didn't appreciate that
7 other people were having difficulty hearing it. I don't know, obviously,
8 whether General Mladic had any difficulty hearing it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least we have it in the English language on
10 the transcript. I don't know whether it was translated or not. You
11 verify that and then at least you have an opportunity to give the
12 transcript to Mr. Mladic for reading.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'm told on the B/C/S channel the
14 translators said they were unable to hear it and they did not translate.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you discuss the matter with Mr. Mladic
16 during the break, if you show him the English version of the transcript
17 then you can come back and we will see how to resolve the matter,
18 Mr. Ivetic.
19 Madam Registrar, the video will be MFI'd.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Video number 22509H received P835, Your Honours,
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
23 You may proceed, Ms. Bolton.
24 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
25 Q. I now wish to turn to the topic of attacks on civilians within
1 the city of Sarajevo, and in that regard I wish to discuss a clip that is
2 an associated exhibit to paragraph 72 of your statement. It's
3 65 ter 22531D.
4 MS. BOLTON: I am relying on the audio, Your Honours. Again it's
5 being reviewed by the CLSS, and I'd be asking to play the first 34
6 seconds of this clip.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we continue, if a sound-track cannot be
8 heard by the B/C/S interpretation, the Chamber would like to be informed
9 immediately so that we can see what action can be taken so as to have a
10 compete record.
11 Please proceed, Ms. Bolton.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 "Martin Bell: Sniper's corner, Sarajevo, as dangerous today as
14 it has ever been. People taking a back road to work were open to sniper
15 fire from Serbian positions in the hills. The Serbs had promised as part
16 their new peace initiative that from now on they would be engaging only
17 military targets. In this part of Sarajevo the promise was not kept, for
18 these were civilians, in civilian vehicles, one of them with Red Cross
20 MS. BOLTON:
21 Q. With respect to this clip you've just seen, sir, could you
22 indicate, please --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, I would like first to verify whether the
24 audio was translated into B/C/S.
25 MR. IVETIC: I'm told yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MS. BOLTON:
3 Q. You have quoted somebody within the Bosnian Serb leadership as
4 indicating that:
5 "From now on," they would only be engaging military targets.
6 Tell me if you recall who made that statement on behalf of the
7 political or military leadership?
8 A. Actually, I don't have the privilege of seeing the video myself,
9 though I heard the audio. At this distance, it would have been one of
10 the leadership. It would have been Karadzic, Koljevic, or Zametica. But
11 20 years later, I don't know which.
12 MS. BOLTON: Your Honours, I am not sure what the difficulty is
13 with the witness seeing the videos.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You have not --
15 THE WITNESS: I was not able to see that video, Your Honour, no.
16 I am seeing the transcript unfolding before me.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we -- would we make sure that the
18 witness and then look at the video. Could it be played again.
19 THE WITNESS: Now I have it, sir.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could it be played again, Ms. Bolton.
21 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 "Sniper's corner, Sarajevo, as dangerous today as it has ever
24 been. People taking a back road to work were open to sniper fire from
25 Serbian position in the hills. The Serbs had promised as part of their
1 new peace initiative that from now on they would be engaging only
2 military targets. In this part of Sarajevo the promise was not kept, for
3 these were civilians, in civilian vehicles, one of them with Red Cross
5 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
6 Again, Your Honours, I'd be asking that this be tendered, MFI'd
7 for confirmation by the interpreters.
8 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22531D receives number P836,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
13 MS. BOLTON:
14 Q. Sir, you describe at paragraph 50 of your amalgamated statement
15 an occasion in January 1993 where a man was shot in the leg while
16 attempting to gather water from standpipe in the basement of the
17 maternity hospital, and it was an occasion when you drove that man to the
18 hospital. Do you recall that incident?
19 A. Yes, Ms. Bolton. It was not actually in the maternity hospital.
20 It was in the basement of a block of flats near the maternity hospital.
21 Q. And could you tells --
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
23 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honours. My apologies.
24 Q. Could you tell us if the individual who was injured, was this a
25 case of somebody being caught in the cross-fire between the warring
2 A. It was clear to me that people -- they had to have water. It was
3 the only standpipe working in the neighbourhood, and they were -- they
4 were shot to and from this position where they could collect water. So I
5 would not actually classify this as being caught in a cross-fire, I would
6 classify this as being deliberately targeted.
7 Q. And I don't know if you recall who was doing the targeting on
8 that occasion?
9 A. Well, the victims were all on the government-held side, so common
10 sense would tell me that the fire was coming from the other side, which
11 was the Bosnian Serb side.
12 Q. Did civilians in Sarajevo take any steps in order to try to
13 protect themselves from the dangers of sniper fire?
14 A. I think I would say that the -- for the population of Sarajevo at
15 that time, and this also applies to the Serb side, they were in the
16 survival business and they would take whatever steps they could. They
17 had no body armour. They had no armoured vehicles. They had to get out
18 to gather fuel. Some of them were still working. They took whatever
19 steps they could. On the upper slopes of Grbavica, on the Serb side,
20 there was a road which was directly in the line of fire of snipers from
21 the government-held side, and the people there had -- had --
22 Q. Sorry, sir, can I just interrupt you because, as you know, my
23 time is limited, and I should have been more specific in my question.
24 Could you tell me about measures taken by civilians in the
25 Bosnian-held -- government-held territory to protect themselves from
1 sniper fire?
2 A. They took whatever action they could, as we saw on that
3 video-clip. They took back-ways. Sometimes they tunnelled out of the
4 back of buildings to -- to find a safer way. They -- they ran. They
5 drove as fast as they could. They carried their bicycles over waste
6 land. They took whatever evasive action they could.
7 Q. Thank you, sir. I want to turn to another topic you discussed in
8 your amalgamated statement which is shelling of the city. And in
9 particular, I am going to play you a chip that is associated to
10 paragraph 83 of your statement. And this is an incident from
11 January 1993.
12 MS. BOLTON: And could I ask that that clip, which I believe is
13 31 seconds, be played in its entirety. We will be relying on the audio,
14 Your Honours, and I think it's an audio where you're going to need to
15 turn it up a little bit to hear it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you give the 65 ter number first.
17 MS. BOLTON: Yes, my apologies. 22509G.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 "Martin Bell: In Sarajevo the horrors are not just heard of but
20 lived through day by day. This is a particularly heavy bombardment of
21 the old city. A single artillery shell fell on a queue of people waiting
22 to pick up water outside the brewery. Eight were killed, 18 seriously
23 injured. Of the dead, three came from one family, the mother and father
24 who were killed instantly and the daughter who died later in hospital."
25 MS. BOLTON:
1 Q. With respect to that incident, sir, were you aware of any ABiH
2 military activity in the area at the time of the shelling?
3 A. No, I was not. It was very much in the -- in the centre of the
4 city. But it was not a war in which there were many easily identifiable
5 military targets on the ABiH side of the lines.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, I was not during the entire time
7 listening to the French translation, but there seemed to be a problem
8 there. Could I hear from the French booth, and I'm on channel 5 now,
9 what the problem was?
10 Ms. Bolton, since you did not identify exactly where it is in the
11 transcript, the French interpreters had problems in translation.
12 Now if the B/C/S translation was there, the rights of the accused
13 are observed. The French translation could be worked on after this, but
14 may I urge you to be very precise in the information you give to all
15 those who are assisting us.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
18 Q. How close to the confrontation line was the brewery in Sarajevo?
19 A. To the best of my recollection, I would think it was about a
20 third or half a mile.
21 MS. BOLTON: Again, I'd ask that that clip be marked for
22 identification, Your Honours.
23 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22509G receives number P837,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
3 MS. BOLTON:
4 Q. Sir, at paragraph 81 of your statement you refer to being injured
5 by shrapnel yourself from a mortar in August of 1992. And could you tell
6 me where in the city you were at the time you were hit?
7 A. I was near the -- the back road we used to take to avoid the
8 dangers of sniper fire on the main road which meant being at the back of
9 Marsal Tito barracks where the road make a kind of a detour around a
10 loading platform. So we got on this loading platform, just open
11 concrete, to try and actually get some idea of where the fire was coming
12 from and what was going on, and I stayed out of cover too long and I was
13 hit by this mortar.
14 Q. And was there any ongoing military activity by the ABiH -- sorry,
15 the Bosnian army at -- in proximity to your location at that time?
16 A. No. We were quite close to a United Nations base in the
17 Marsal Tito barracks, but I saw no military activity going on around me
18 except there was quite a lot of firing from unidentifiable sources.
19 Q. You've told us a little bit about civilians in Sarajevo and
20 their -- the issues of shelling and sniping. Could you tell us whether
21 there were other privations that civilians were subject to, particularly
22 in the ABiH-held territory, during the conflict?
23 A. Yes, this was a war fought in the centre of a -- of an industrial
24 city. For much of the time there was no electricity, there was no gas,
25 there was no water, so people were living in very primitive conditions.
1 And I was told some of the old people unable to leave the high-rises just
2 died of hypothermia.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, I am looking at the clock. How much
4 more time would you need because I think you had half an hour yesterday.
5 You asked for one hour, and you're very close to half an hour now.
6 MS. BOLTON: I'd checked with the Registrar at the end of the day
7 yesterday and was told I'd used 23 minutes, and I have, I could indicate,
8 Your Honour, probably about another 12 minutes to go. And again, we've
9 had some issues today. I think I'm probably only around the 40-minute
10 mark, 45-minute mark in the time I've used.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, the Registrar keeps a record for
12 reporting which is an administrative report which, sometimes, is based
13 on, for example, the Chamber's questions or the Chamber's interventions
14 even where the parties are fully responsible for that time. So I would
15 like to keep that in my own hands. I'll ask Madam Registrar to give me
16 further information.
17 I'm asking it -- it is the Prosecution, I would think, who would
18 very much like the witness to be concluded today. We had an early start.
19 If you now use all the lost minutes and say, We are entitled to use them,
20 then at the end the Defence will not be able to finish today. That's my
22 Would you please try to proceed as quickly as you can and as
23 efficiently as you can.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Sir, obviously during the conflict you filed a number of stories
2 on behalf of the BBC which included coverage of targeting of civilians in
3 the city by the VRS. Are you aware of whether anyone in the Bosnian Serb
4 military or political leadership was keeping abreast of your reports?
5 A. Yes, indeed. The -- the Bosnian Serb leadership was extremely
6 concerned about its public diplomacy. They -- they knew what was being
7 broadcast because it could come back on the Euro Vision news exchange.
8 And I remember somehow, Dr. Karadzic - maybe I gave it to him - he
9 actually called the BBC 6.00 news, the early evening news directly, to
10 protest about something that he had seen. He actually had the direct
11 line number.
12 Q. Turning briefly to the issue of the report you filed on the
13 shelling of the Markale marketplace in August 1995 which you describe at
14 paragraph 104 of your statement, do you recall where you were when you
15 became aware that a shelling had taken place?
16 A. Yes. I was handing over to a colleague who had arrived the night
17 before, and we were both attending the daily UNPROFOR news conference
18 when we heard about this.
19 Q. And how long would it have taken you after hearing about the
20 incident to actually get on scene?
21 A. It would have been less than ten minutes.
22 Q. And how is it that you actually learned about the shelling?
23 A. Word got to the press conference somehow. I can't remember. We
24 all stampeded out of the room and went as fast as we could to the scene
25 of the shelling.
1 Q. I wish to discuss very briefly modified air bombs.
2 MS. BOLTON: I ask that we play 65 ter 22354, the first
3 34 seconds only. And we are relying on the audios, Your Honour. This is
4 being reviewed by the CLSS, and it's referred to at paragraph 100 of the
5 witness's statement.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 "Reporter: ... are involved in stand off with French UN
8 peacekeepers; the Serbs laid mines around the disputed check-point on the
9 airport road outside Sarajevo. There has also been an upsurge in
10 fighting around Sarajevo and at Bihac between Bosnian Serbs and
11 government troops.
12 "Martin Bell: The cease-fire appears to be crumbling rapidly.
13 Today there were offensives on at least two fronts in Bosnia and south of
14 Sarajevo. The suburb of Hrasnica came under Serbian attack for the third
15 successive day. A rocket leveled five house, killed one person, and
16 injured several more. Outside ..."
17 MS. BOLTON:
18 Q. With respect to the destructive power of the rocket that leveled
19 the houses in Hrasnica, can you comment on how that compared with other
20 weapons you had seen in Sarajevo up to that point in time?
21 A. Yes. In its explosive power this was the heaviest weapon that I
22 had seen used. I think it was a 500-pound modified air bomb. All sides
23 in this war were using whatever they could, and some of the -- those --
24 the Croats used to roll sea-mines down onto Muslim houses in
25 Gornji Vakuf. But this was a extraordinary development and an indication
1 of total breakdown of the cease-fire at that time.
2 Q. At paragraph 101 of your statement, you indicate that the
3 modified air bomb was disproportionate and has no chance of
4 distinguishing between military and civilian targets. What did you mean
5 by saying it couldn't distinguish between military and civilian targets?
6 A. I was referring to the extent of the blast and the destruction it
7 could cause. Obviously it would depend on where the modified air bomb
8 landed, but if it -- shall we say, if you were standing anywhere on a
9 football pitch, you would be very lucky to survive. And we hadn't seen a
10 single weapon as destructive as that at earlier stages in the war.
11 Q. You refer at paragraph 100 of your statement to a modified air
12 bomb attack on the TV building in July 1995. Could you tell us how often
13 you visited that building?
14 A. I visited that building every day. We broadcast from there. We
15 had an office there which we leased from the Bosnian television service.
16 So it was our -- I wasn't actually able -- somebody else was covering for
17 the BBC then, but the bomb exploded in the well. The television station
18 was like a figure eight with straight sides and it fell into one of the
19 wells in the building and caused extensive damage and some casualties
20 both to Bosnians and to some of western journalists based there. I had a
21 friend who nearly lost his eyesight.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, you have four minutes left.
23 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. Very quickly, sir, did you see any evidence in your visits to the
25 TV building to suggest it was ever being used by the Bosnian government
1 for military purposes?
2 A. None whatever, no.
3 Q. You describe in your statement an attack by Arkan's tigers in
4 Zvornik in April 1992, and you also mention in your report that
5 Arkan's Men had taken a number of Muslim extremists from Bijeljina into
6 custody. Could you tell us how you recognised the men in the Zvornik
7 area as Arkan's Men?
8 A. The image was shot by a friend of mine, Dragan Havzjevocic, who
9 was based in Belgrade. I knew Arkan personally. I had met him a number
10 of times, and it was definitely -- they had identifiable uniforms. They
11 tended to wear balaclavas. And it was definitely Arkan who was saluting
12 the Serbian flag as it was hoisted on the municipality in Zvornik.
13 Q. And did you subsequently learn after events in Zvornik that
14 Arkan's Men had been involved in an attack in Bijeljina?
15 A. Yes. I heard that but I didn't have a reliable account of it.
16 Q. Was there media coverage of that attack, and if so, how
18 A. There was a famous still picture which ran on the front page
19 of -- of "Time" magazine by a photo journalist called Ron Haviv and it
20 was one of Arkan's Men with his boot on a head of a Muslim prisoner in
22 Q. Thank you. And finally, sir, I'll ask that 65 ter 22619A be
23 played for you.
24 MS. BOLTON: Again, we would be relying on the audio,
25 Your Honours.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 "Martin Bell: The United Nations here has all contact with the
3 Bosnian Serbs. Yet the Serbs want to open talks with the contact group
4 whose peace plan they have rejected about the hostages and about security
5 guarantees. This may be an attempt to blitz their way back to the
6 conference table but they do seek an end to their isolation.
7 "The Serbs are not doing well militarily. They have called for
8 volunteers to hold the line on one battle-field, and near Brcko they
9 failed in an offensive to widen the corridor connecting the tow parts of
10 their territory. They are also responding by tightening the noose on the
11 capital. For the people here, it's like a return to the worst of times.
12 The Serbs have cut off both power and water. The people of Sarajevo have
13 been here before. They have learned to improvise and need all the best
14 friends they can find.
15 "Martin Bell, BBC News, Sarajevo."
16 MS. BOLTON:
17 Q. Sir, what did you mean in that report where you referred to
18 tightening the noose around the capital?
19 A. The city was under siege. The fighting was as intense as it had
20 been in the first summer of the war. This was the third summer. There
21 was no running water as you see from that. I think it was an attempt to
22 force a negotiations on terms favourable to the Serbs.
23 Q. And finally, sir, did events elsewhere in Bosnia have any impact
24 on what happened in Sarajevo?
25 A. Yes, they did, but unfortunately our access was so limited both
1 by the ABiH and, of course, we were cut off from the Serbs. And I had
2 written about this, that we tended to report Sarajevo as if it were the
3 whole of Bosnia which, of course, it was not.
4 MS. BOLTON: Could 65 ter 22619 be tendered and marked for
5 identification, Your Honour.
6 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22619A receives number P838,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
11 And the previous video?
12 MS. BOLTON: Oh, yes. Thank you, Your Honours. If that could
13 also be marked for identification and introduced.
14 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the 65 ter number would be ...
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22354 receives number P839,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
19 MS. BOLTON: That concludes our direct examination, Your Honours.
20 Did you wish me to address the issue of the exhibits or should we leave
21 that until the witness completes his testimony?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see whether we can conclude the
23 witness's testimony.
24 Mr. Ivetic, I tried to work out a schedule. You would have, I
25 would say, almost all of the time remaining today. We'll take the first
1 break at ten minutes past 10.00; we resume at half past 10.00. We'll
2 take the second break at 25 minutes to 12.00; we'll then resume at
3 5 minutes to 12.00 until 1.00, and we resume at 20 minutes past 1.00
4 until quarter past 2.00.
5 Mr. Bell, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic. Mr. Ivetic
6 is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
7 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
10 Q. Good day, Mr. Bell. Today I have several areas I would like to
11 ask you some questions about to try and assist us to better understanding
12 your testimony and to clarify some issues that you might have personal
13 knowledge of.
14 Before we begin, insofar as we both will be using English, we
15 have to be mindful to observe a pause between question and answer for the
16 interpreters. And by all means, even though we would both be using
17 English, there might arise a time when one of my questions is not clear,
18 please do not hesitate to bring that to my attention.
19 Is that fair, sir?
20 A. That is fair, Mr. Ivetic.
21 Q. Thank you. Then I would begin. First, I want to ask a few
22 things relative to your background and experience. Prior to going to the
23 former Yugoslavia in 1991, did you at that time speak any of the Yugoslav
24 languages, or did you have to rely upon an interpreter when being
25 deployed to the former Yugoslavia?
1 A. In Belgrade, in Slovenia, in Croatia, and in Bosnia, I relied on
2 some very good interpreters.
3 Q. And did you have to at some time stop using Serbian interpreters,
4 that is ethnic Serbian interpreters, because the Muslims refused to talk
5 with you with a Serb translator present?
6 A. Yes, sir, that is true. I remember when it happened, quite early
7 on in late April 1992, we went to Butmir on the far side of the airport
8 to witness the distribution of United Nations aid, and the Muslims there
9 insisted that my Serb interpreter who came from Belgrade,
10 Vladimir Marionovic [phoen] was not allowed to accompany us. At that
11 point I regretfully sent him back to Belgrade, though he continued to
12 operate out of Pale with others.
13 Q. Thank you, sir. And I note that you left the BBC in 1997 and
14 entered politics thereafter. Could you please explain for us the
15 circumstances behind you leaving the BBC? Am I correct that there was
16 some kind of disagreement with your bosses?
17 A. No, as a matter of fact, Mr. Ivetic, there was not. I was
18 completing a documentary of Kofi Annan's first three months in office as
19 Secretary-General of the UN. And I entered politics in rather odd
20 circumstances. There was a -- there was a conservative MP who was
21 suspected of being corrupt. He held a very safe seat and the two
22 opposition parties were looking for someone outside politics to stand as
23 an independent and to take him out or defeat him, and so I -- I was
24 persuaded to stand, and I won, and I served in parliament for four years
25 as an independent member.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. And I believe you have authored some books. In
2 your statement, which we have before us, at paragraph 6, which would be
3 P832, marked for identification.
4 MR. IVETIC: And for those following along it's page 3 in the
5 English and page 3 in the B/C/S.
6 Q. You mentioned one of these books, entitled "In Harm's Way," that
7 dealt with events in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Could you please identify the
8 other books that have been published and the topics that are addressed in
10 A. Yes, sir. I wrote a book about my experience in politics called
11 "An Accidental MP." I wrote two books on international politics and war.
12 "In Harms Way," was -- sorry, "In Harm's Way" was -- "Through Gates
13 of Fire" was one, and "The truth that Sticks" was another. I wrote a
14 book of poetry which was published last year, mostly about war and
15 politics. And a new edition of "In Harm's Way" to mark the
16 20th anniversary of the start of the war where the new introduction was
17 published in April of last year.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I want to get back to the time-period when
19 you departed the former Yugoslavia in 1991. And I want to ask you if
20 prior to then or at that time you had performed any research into the
21 events leading up to the recognition of the break-away Yugoslav republics
22 of Croatia and Slovenia?
23 A. I had, as it happened, done a television documentary back in the
24 Tito time about Marshal Tito's 80th birthday, so I was familiar with some
25 of the situations and some of the tensions underlying in Yugoslavia.
1 Q. And I want to ask you also, did you have an existing news
2 sources, that is to say sources or contacts, in the former Yugoslavia
3 that you had cultivated prior to going over there, or did you have to
4 rely upon making new connections with potential sources once you arrived
5 on the ground?
6 A. I would say I -- I -- I had to really make it up as I went along.
7 I made connections, obviously, with the United Nations, with the
8 European Community observers. I talked to local journalists. If you're
9 a war reporter you have to learn rather fast.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. I'd like to briefly ask you to explain something
11 that you put in one of your earlier statements, the February 1996
12 statement, to the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY.
13 MR. IVETIC: And to do so I'd like to call that document up.
14 It's 1D656 in e-court. And according to my notes it should be page 2 in
15 both languages in e-court. And in the English the part that I will be
16 asking about is the second paragraph from the top of the page.
17 Q. And, sir, I'd like to focus on the part of this selection that
18 reads as follows:
19 "Slovenia made the first step towards war with its declaration of
20 independence. It did so for its own selfish purposes, but it was hard
21 not to have foreseen the consequences elsewhere. The Croats could not
22 hold back once the Slovenians went for it."
23 And, sir, I want to ask you, what was your understanding of the
24 selfish purpose that you have identified behind Slovenia's declaration of
25 independence. Di it amount to an economic factor that they wanted to
1 separate from the less prosperous remainder of Yugoslavia?
2 A. Yes, Mr. Ivetic, I think you have correctly identified it. There
3 were some serious economic problems, even before the death of
4 Marshal Tito. And the wealthier republics, Slovenia and Croatia,
5 resented being asked, as they saw it, to bail out the less wealthy, the
6 Macedonians and the Kosovars and that was a cause considerable tension.
7 Q. And one more thing, sir, about the terminology used here that I
8 would like to ask you about. When you say it was hard not to have
9 foreseen the consequences elsewhere, did you mean by that not only that
10 other republics would seek independence but that there might also be war
11 that would erupt?
12 A. Yes, indeed, in my book "In Harm's Way" I talk about the law of
13 unintended consequences and the -- some documents were passed to me by
14 one of the international diplomats including Lord Carrington's expressed
15 concern to the European Community that the unilateral recognition of
16 Croatia would light the fuse to a war in Bosnia which, of course, is
17 exactly what happened.
18 Q. Thank you, sir, and so just to finish up with the Slovenian
19 issue, in your mind do the Slovenian authorities bear some responsibility
20 for the wars that followed in Croatia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
21 JUDGE ORIE: You're asking for a judgement on a responsibility,
22 Mr. Ivetic, and although I do appreciate that some opinions of this
23 witness can be accepted, this is a question which goes too far.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, sir.
1 Q. I'd like to now move on to a different but related topic. You
2 have testified in prior cases, most notably the Perisic case at
3 transcript page 3203 and the Karadzic case at transcript page 9805 about
4 the so-called Genscher push for recognition. And I want to try and take
5 a look at that and break it down so that we can all understand what you
6 mean. First of all, sir, is this related to the actions of a German
7 diplomat named Hans Dietrich Genscher?
8 A. Yes, sir, he was the foreign minister at this time.
9 Q. And I would like to call up a portion of the Karadzic transcript.
10 MR. IVETIC: So if we can have in e-court, please, document
11 1D00654. And when we get that document, I'll be looking for 52nd page in
13 Q. And while we wait for that, sir, this will be the transcript of
14 the 14th of December, I believe, of 2010 and should correlate to
15 transcript page 9805 of the -- of that transcript once it comes up. And
16 I will be looking at the top of the page. And your answer is recorded as
17 follows, sir, and if you could follow along with me:
18 "A. Yes, Dr. Karadzic, I have argued repeatedly that -- as
19 Lord Carrington did, that when the European Community agreed to the
20 recognition of Croatia, it made war in Bosnia inevitable.
21 Lord Carrington warned that it could well be the small spark that ignites
22 the powder keg of Bosnia, and yet the European Community agreed to this.
23 And when I lay the blame for what happened beyond the peoples and armies
24 of Bosnia as the war developed, I believe that the western democracies,
25 and specifically my own government, bear some burden of responsibility.
1 In fact, I can tell you that after I left Bosnia, I fell into politics in
2 the United Kingdom and became briefly a member of parliament, and this
3 was one of my motivating forces. I thought, if this is how little
4 politicians can do, maybe I can try to do better as a politician."
5 First of all, sir, I have to ask you whether you stand by this
6 portion of your testimony?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
8 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you restart your question.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Q. Sir, first of all, I have to ask you whether you stand by this
12 selection from your testimony in the Karadzic proceedings as being
13 truthful and accurate, and would you testify today similarly having taken
14 the solemn declaration?
15 A. Yes, I would. I've also had the opportunity to discuss these
16 events with Douglas Hurd, who was then the British foreign secretary.
17 Q. And was Mr. Hurd of a similar view?
18 A. No, he was not. He defended the -- the -- the British -- I'll be
19 as brief as I can. We -- there was a change of mind. The British were
20 initially opposed to the recognition of Croatia but ten days before there
21 had been a meeting about the Maastricht Treaty and the Germans had been
22 very helpful to the United Kingdom on its opt-out clauses, and at the
23 meeting on the recognition of Croatia, Hans Dietrich Genscher reminded
24 Mr. Hurd of that helpfulness and Mr. Hurd then sought instructions from
25 Downing Street.
1 Q. And I believe we are talking about the same meeting that I was
2 just about to go through. Let me just double-check.
3 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up 1D648.
4 Q. And, sir, this will be a facsimile copy of your book
5 "In Harm's Way." And if we can have page 3 of the document in e-court.
6 And this should correlate to pages 36 and 37 of hard print version as we
7 have not put the whole book into e-court. And I believe the events that
8 you have just in part summarised begin at the middle of page 36 and the
9 paragraph that has the text that begins, "The decision was taken on 16
10 December 1991 and" -- well, let me just read this section for you and see
11 if there's any additional comments that you would like to make about this
13 "The decision was taken on 16 December 1991. The Germans were
14 not in a mood to be outvoted. It was an issue that mattered more to them
15 than to anyone else around the table. As a friend who observed their
16 diplomacy from a privileged vantage point described it, 'Bonn believed
17 that the act of recognition would somehow be like waving a magic wand
18 over the problem.' But at the first vote only the Belgians and Danes
19 were with them. Mr. van den Broek himself opposed them strenuously.
20 Then something happened in the course of the ministerial dinner and
21 before the final vote at 2.00 in the morning, which changed the minds of
22 the reluctant nine, Britain and France included. The Germans prevailed.
23 Much later, with the benefit of two years' hindsight of the consequences,
24 it was characterised by one of the mediators as 'a damn near criminal
25 decision.' It opened the way to a fateful referendum on Bosnia, and the
1 declaration of an independent republic against the wishes of one of its
2 constituent peoples. It left Bosna in a sort of limbo to be fought for
3 and in effect condemned 200.000 people to death."
4 Now, first of all, sir, with respect to this selection from your
5 book, do you stand by what you wrote as being truthful and honest, and
6 would you repeat the same today even having taken the solemn declaration?
7 A. I would with one exception, which is that the casualty total in
8 the new edition of that book I put the total casualties at 98.000. We
9 know what happened now at that dinner and that was the subject of my
10 previous answer. And if it's any help, the diplomat quoted was
11 Cyrus Vance's deputy, the late Herb Okun.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. You had anticipated the questions I had in
13 regard to that. I also want to ask you, do you have any insight as to --
14 you have already told us why the British authorities changed their vote.
15 Do you have any insight whether, in fact, the British authorities then
16 undertook to change the minds of the other member nations who had
17 previously not voted in favour of the German resolution?
18 A. I think the answer is that the United Kingdom, as one of the
19 major players in what was then the 12 of the European Community, had much
20 influence. And the others were quite happy to -- including the French,
21 were then -- once the British were persuaded, the others were happy to
22 fall into line.
23 Q. And you had already --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters, thank
1 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. I will try to endeavour to slow down.
2 Q. You had already mentioned warnings by Lord Carrington as to the
3 potential for the recognition of these break-away republics igniting the
4 powder keg. If we can return to the text, the top of page 37 on the
5 right-hand side of the screen continues to give other details about the
6 warnings that were made at the time. And I'd like to touch upon those
7 briefly. So I would propose to read the first paragraph into the record
8 and then ask you some follow-up questions about that, sir. It begins as
10 "If that seems too hash a judgement - what else were the Serbs,
11 given their history and paranoia, expected to do? And to the argument
12 that their reaction could not have been predicted, the answer is that it
13 could have been, and was. It was predicted both by Lord Carrington and
14 by the Secretary-General of the United Nations in their prescient letters
15 to the European Community's Council of Ministers. It was predicted by
16 the community's own monitors on the ground. And it was predicted by the
17 British and German ambassadors in Belgrade in messages which were
18 discounted at the time but will one day form part of the historical
19 record. In the judgement of the American ambassador, 'War in Bosnia now
20 became virtually inevitable.'"
21 And, sir, I have to ask you, first, with respect to this
22 selection from your book, do you stand by the words I have recited from
23 there as being honest and truthful based upon your knowledge and would
24 you repeat the same even today under the solemn declaration?
25 A. Yes, sir. I -- when I revised my book, I -- I made no changes in
1 judgements whatever. Only in casualty figures, some were too high and
2 some were too low.
3 Q. And with respect to all these other sources of warnings that you
4 have now identified in this selection, were those all matters that were
5 known of record at the time, or are these things that have come to light
6 only after the events of 1991?
7 A. They were a mixture of the two, Mr. Ivetic. Some of the -- some
8 came to light like the reflections of the American ambassador, some I was
9 aware of at the time, since I knew the British ambassador in Belgrade
10 very well, and some were in documents passed to me at a conference on
11 Bosnia while the war was still going on by the American diplomat,
12 Herb Okun.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I am looking at the clock. We are close
14 to the moment where we should take the break.
15 MR. IVETIC: Yes, that's fine, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will ask the witness to follow the
17 usher. We will take a break of 20 minutes. I'd like to see you back
18 after that.
19 We'll take a break and we'll resume at 10.30.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 --- Recess taken at 10.10 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
24 MS. BOLTON: Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton.
1 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, just while the witness is being brought in, I
2 thought I'd just use the time to indicate I'd been asked to put on the
3 record that the other witness who had been scheduled for this week,
4 RM175, has obviously been rescheduled.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Q. Now, sir, the next paragraph of the text of your book talks about
9 the situation that you have already identified for us in court; namely,
10 that the British representatives changed their vote due to a -- getting
11 an opt-out clause for the Maastricht Treaty. The question I have for you
12 is: Here you identify that this information, that is, the trade off
13 between the opt-out clause in Maastricht and the British support for
14 recognition of Croatia and Slovenia was verified by the independent
15 witnesses, and I'd like to see if you could be a bit more specific as to
16 the nature of these witnesses, either by position or any other
17 identifying remarks that you could give us.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber has considered during the
19 break your line of questioning. The Chamber does not in any way --
20 ignores that the background of the history of the war on the Balkans has
21 some relevance. At the same time, the Chamber notices that Mr. Mladic is
22 not charged with a war having happened but for his responsibility for war
23 crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide to be comitted.
24 Now what we have heard during the first hour of your
25 cross-examination, it was not an entire hour --
1 MR. IVETIC: Twenty minutes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic. Was mainly about what seems
3 not to be, at least in the view of this Chamber, seems not to be the
4 matters from which we finally would have to decide.
5 Now at the beginning of the second session you apparently are
6 continuing that line of questioning, and the Chamber would like to
7 clearly express that with full acceptance of some relevance of the
8 background that it is still background and that core of the case is
9 elsewhere. Would you please keep that in mind also in view of how you
10 wish to spend and divide your times over the various subjects, also in
11 view of the testimony given by the witness in chief.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. And I was just finishing
14 up the last three or four questions I had on this matter that were
15 interrupted by the break. Let me see if I can try and short-circuit the
17 Q. In the course of the selection which we have just read, sir, you
19 "What else were the Serbs, given their history and paranoia,
20 expected to do?"
21 And I would like to just ask two questions relating to that
22 aspect that you have now confirmed, and the first of which would be: In
23 the course of becoming familiar with the history of the region, did you
24 have occasion to learn of the Croatian puppet state that existed under
25 the auspices of the German Nazi regime in World War II and that covered
1 both present day Croatia and present day Bosnia-Herzegovina and the
2 persecution and killings of ethnic Serbs by the Croat and Bosnian Muslim
3 organs of that state?
4 A. Yes, indeed, Mr. Ivetic. I was well aware of this during my time
5 in Croatia, which included a visit to the notorious Jasenovac
6 concentration camp. I heard of it in my many dealings with Croats and,
7 indeed, with Serbs, in Croatia and in Bosnia, and I've never in all my
8 life reported a war in which the ordinary, average soldier on the ground,
9 especially on the Serb side, was so well aware of his people's history
10 and what he was fighting for. This was entirely new in my experience.
11 So I got pretty well informed quite quickly.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. And now in regards to some terminology that you
13 I think used in testimony in other cases, I want to just clarify. In
14 terms of these -- this World War II puppet state, am I correct that the
15 Croat and Muslim armed groups that existed during that time-period and
16 which were aligned with the Nazi Germany powers, that they were called
17 the Ustasha movement and the SS Handzar movement respectively?
18 A. It was the Ustasha movement that I was familiar with, and almost
19 from the start of war in Bosnia, in Herzegovina, you would find Croats
20 driving around with pictures of the Ustasha leader, Ante Pavelic, at the
21 back of their car.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. You have anticipated my question which was to
23 transition to 1991 and your time in Croatia and in Bosnia in the years
24 thereafter. I would like to ask you something specific.
25 MR. IVETIC: If we can look at 1D657. This again -- I apologise,
1 not again.
2 Q. This is for the first time a statement that you signed for the
3 Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal in October of 1996.
4 MR. IVETIC: And when we call up this exhibit, this document, I
5 guess we should look on the first page first just to verify that it's the
6 same one.
7 Q. And for purposes of the record, sir, is that your signature on
8 the bottom right corner of the English version on the right-hand side of
9 the screen?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 MR. IVETIC: And if we could please have the fifth page of this
12 statement in English and the fifth page in the B/C/S.
13 Q. And I'd like to focus on the first paragraph on the page in the
14 English, sir. And the selection I'd like to ask you about begins and
15 reads as follows:
16 "I also saw many 'HOS' signs in Vitez. HOS were dressed in
17 black. Whatever control Blaskic had over HOS and Kraljevic, who was in
18 charge of them, was fairly loose. Kraljevic was in control over one area
19 in the front line with ABiH. Blaskic needed his help."
20 And I'd like to stop there and ask you, first of all, sir, in
21 regards to -- well, first of all, in regards to this selection from your
22 statement which I've now read, do you stand by those words as truthful
23 and accurate having in mind that you have now taken the solemn
24 declaration before beginning your testimony?
25 A. Yes, I do. I would add that as well as ABiH at that time, the
1 Croats in Vitez felt threatened by the Mujahedin who were, of course,
2 allied to ABiH but not under their control. And the Blaskic case was an
3 issue of command and control.
4 Q. Thank you for that clarification. I want to ask you, first of
5 all, the HOS signs and the HOS unit, are we talking about -- first of
6 all, in respect of the signs, emblems that would feature a Croat
7 chequer-board with a capital U symbol, that stood for "Ustasha"? Was
8 that your experience?
9 A. Certainly the -- certainly the chequer-board this -- this stage,
10 20 years ago, 21 years ago, I can't remember the U.
11 Q. Can you describe any of the signs that you say you saw in Vitez
12 relating to the HOS?
13 A. As I remember they were just spelling out the -- the three
15 Q. And did you have occasion to learn that the HOS was affiliated
16 with a particular political party, the Croatian Party of Rights, led by a
17 man by the name of Dobroslav Paraga, who was advocating a resurgence of
18 the World War II regime?
19 A. Yes, that is correct. They also by then -- in the Croatian war,
20 they had some British mercenaries fighting along side them.
21 Q. And now this selection from your prior statement that we read
22 relates to Vitez. For those that might be unfamiliar with geography,
23 could you tells where Vitez is located?
24 A. Yes, Mr. Ivetic. Vitez was in the Lasva valley. It was a -- it
25 was a Croat enclave. Vitez part of Gornji Vakuf and other villages
1 roundabout. It was surrounded by -- by government forces. The HVO felt
2 they were outnumbered and they particularly felt threatened by the
4 Q. And now I want to ask you, in your discussions with the members
5 of the Bosnian Serb leadership and in your discussions with the common
6 Bosnian Serb soldier throughout the time of your stay in the region to
7 report on the conflict going on there, did these individuals often talk
8 to you or refer to a fear of a resurgence of the Ustasha and Muslim
9 Handzar movements from World War II?
10 A. Yes, Mr. Ivetic. These were matters regularly raised at all
11 levels, and I think - and this is not a criticism at all - but I had
12 written somewhere that from my experience the Serbs live their history
13 like no other people on earth. And -- and they have every reason to do
15 Q. And just one more question about the events in Croatia before
16 moving on to the latter events in the neighbouring Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Would you agree that what was happening in Croatia in 1991 and 1992 made
18 people of all ethnic groups in Bosnia weary and made them start planning
19 to defend themselves against the other ethnic groups, particularly those
20 who had fought against them in the Second World War?
21 A. The answer to that, Mr. Ivetic, is both yes and no. Of all the
22 republics of Yugoslavia, Bosnia was the one with the most mixed
23 marriages. Still the most Tito'st, I would say, were the great reverence
24 for the Marshal. And many people would just refuse to believe that the
25 worst-case scenario was going to happen. I think the Serbs from their
1 experiences of the Ustasha state were probably more aware of the dangers
2 and they certainly prepared better for them.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, is there major dispute about the matters
4 which were elicited from this witness by Mr. Ivetic?
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I think these historical events are
6 exactly the kind of thing that the Prosecution would be willing to agree
7 to. And if Mr. Ivetic were to put that into filing in compliance with
8 the Chamber's guidelines, I think he would find that we would agree to
9 most of what's been led here at the moment.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Mr. Ivetic, could you please keep this in the back of your mind
12 when you proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours.
14 Q. I want to now move on to another topic focussing on your
15 deployment as a journalist to the republic -- to -- across the boundaries
16 to Bosnia-Herzegovina. And specifically I want to start with the
17 press corps that were in Sarajevo, and I want to address something that I
18 think you've said in prior testimony. And to be fair I'd like to bring
19 that up.
20 MR. IVETIC: It's 1D653 in e-court. And once that is located I'd
21 like the 28th page in e-court.
22 Q. And for your information, sir, this will be a transcript from, I
23 believe, the Perisic proceedings, and it should correlate to transcript
24 page 3192 of that proceeding's record of transcript. And on that page,
25 I'd like to focus on lines 8 through 14, if I may. And now we have that
1 on the screen, sir, I'd like you to follow along and then I will have
2 some questions for you:
3 "Q. Was everybody interested in the same sort of stories that
4 you have described?
5 "A. There was more of an agreed agenda than I think there is
6 now. Yes, on the whole. There was no tabloid press there very much. I
7 don't think there were any great differences between us in the way that
8 we covered the story, except that I probably spent more time with the
9 Serbs than most of the rest."
10 And now the first question I have to ask you is, again, as a
11 matter of formality, can you confirm and do you stand by this portion of
12 your testimony from the Perisic case as being truthful and accurate and
13 would you so testify again today if asked to do so given the solemn
14 declaration that you have taken?
15 A. Yes, sir. Absolutely.
16 Q. And now I'd like to ask for a little bit more detail and
17 clarification. Could you explain for us a little more what you meant
18 when you used the term "agreed agenda" in this context?
19 A. This was a more of a reference to the way that journalism has
20 changed since that time. As the audiences have fragmented and there is,
21 in my experience, less concentration on foreign news than there was at
22 that time, there were some very serious journalists there. Some very
23 good friends. We were a close-knit group. And we worked as a team.
24 That's all I would say.
25 Q. And with respect to your observation your comment that you
1 probably spent more times with the Serbs than the rest of your
2 colleagues, would you agree with me that this means that the -- that the
3 other journalists were primarily reporting from just one side, that would
4 be the Bosnian government side, of the conflict line?
5 A. I think that was -- that was my perception at the time. And, of
6 course, by the end of the war we were all driven back and I could no
7 longer have access to the -- to the Serb held areas. But I believed then
8 that the Serbs were absolutely crucial to the -- to finding an outcome.
9 And I spent a lot of time and I wasted a lot of time and I risked my own
10 life and the lives of those with me to cross those front lines and meet
11 those Serbs.
12 Q. And in fact, sir, your fellow reporters from the Sarajevo press
13 corps, am I correct that they sort of labeled you as being pro-Serb
14 merely because you wanted the venture over and see the other side and
15 spent more time with the Serbs than they did?
16 A. They never actually said so publicly, Mr. Ivetic, but they --
17 they -- I got the impression that they felt I was wasting my time. And
18 for some of them, this was a -- this was a black and white issue, whereas
19 to me it was always etched in shades of grey. And if I had the war
20 again, I'd do the same thing again.
21 Q. And now I'd like to ask you, during that time-period when you
22 were reporting from Bosnia-Herzegovina and the former Yugoslavia, am I
23 correct that the editors back home had already early on gotten themselves
24 into a mindset of the Muslims being the good guys and the Bosnian Serb
25 side as being the bad guys in this conflict?
1 A. Yes, Mr. Ivetic. I was aware of this mindset on the occasion of
2 the notorious ambush of the JNA column during the UN brokered exchange
3 between General Kukanjac and President Izetbegovic. And the following
4 morning I saw the shot-up ambulance, and I told my editors what I was
5 going to report about, and they said, Are you sure? I said, Yes, I am
6 sure. I talked to a colonel who survived it. And then they accepted it.
7 But there is a department of preconceived notions in journalism, as in
8 other walks of life.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. And I'd like to move along and call up 1D648 and
10 turn to page 16 in e-court of the same which would correlate to page 129
11 of the hard copy text, I believe. And that's on the bottom side of the
12 right-hand side of the screen. And it bleeds over to -- or spills over
13 to the next page. And I'd like to present this to you and ask you some
14 more questions about these observations, sir.
15 So if you would be so kind as to follow with me I will begin:
16 "This may seem a partizan account, as if we were taking sides
17 with beleaguered Muslims. Many journalists did, which was perhaps the
18 flaw in the generally crusading character of the Sarajevo press corps.
19 But the Serbs, in their section of the city, led almost as miserable a
20 life. They too were sniped at and mortared and wounded, though generally
21 not under the eye of the TV camera. Their civilians were also in the
22 line of fire. And contrary to the general belief, they were not all wild
23 men from the mountains. One of their front line warriors, where the
24 Grbavica salient reached deepest into the city centre, had been a judge
25 before the war, in the old multi-ethnic order of things. 'We are living
1 here,' he said. 'This part of Grbavica has been our home. It is a
2 question of knowing why you are fighting. If the lives of the members of
3 my family are endangered, and someone is going to cut my throat because I
4 am a Serb, then I really do not care whether I have a knife, a gun, or a
5 cannon, but I shall use it.'
6 "The Serbs seemed to model themselves on the old western
7 gun-slinger, Wild Bill Hickok, who was said never to have killed a man
8 except in self-defence, but to have spent a great deal of his time
9 defending himself. And the Serbs weren't waiting to be attacked. They
10 got their retaliation in first."
11 The first question I have for you first, sir, is: With respect
12 to this selection I have read, is this a truthful and accurate account
13 and would you so repeat today subject to the solemn declaration?
14 A. Yes, of course.
15 Q. And was it your experience that the Serb soldiers around Sarajevo
16 were all locals who in their mind were fighting for the defence of their
17 own homes and their own families?
18 A. That was generally the case. I vividly remember, Your Honours,
19 one doesn't expect to see judges in the front line of a war, but there he
20 was. And as I was explaining before, they could all, at whatever level,
21 give a good account of why they were doing what they were doing. But in
22 the course of the war, I also discovered there were some units coming in
23 from outside, from Belgrade, former JNA, but predominantly the soldiers
24 in the front line were indeed local people mobilised by the -- for the
25 Bosnian Serb army.
1 Q. And at the beginning of this selection from your book which I
2 read, you talk about many journalists did take sides with the beleaguered
3 Muslims. I'd like to ask you, how prevalent was this bias in the
4 Sarajevo press corps that you mentioned here? Approximately what
5 percentage did take sides with the Muslim side that was viewed as being
7 A. It was not so much a case of consciously taking sides as of not
8 going anywhere outside the government held parts of Sarajevo and seeing
9 the war from that perspective, and some of them were very comitted. A
10 friend of mine said, "This is our Vietnam." Well, Vietnam was my Vietnam
11 and I'd been in eight wars before I came to this one, so I tried to bring
12 some experience to bear. But towards the end of the book you've quoted
13 from, I lament that so much of the reporting at the end of the war was
14 done on an axis of a mile and a half, shall we say, from the airport to
15 the old Turkish fort.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. And would these comments that you've made about
17 the limited nature of the movements and reporting of other journalists be
18 true for the entirety of the period or would it be earlier in the period
19 or later in the period?
20 A. It -- the -- because of field security, which is a -- basically
21 the excuse for putting up roadblocks and denying access to journalist,
22 1992, 1993, even 1994 we could get about quite easily. I was able when
23 based in -- in Vitez in 1993 to go through Sierra 1, the most notorious
24 roadblock above Ilidza. And I could go to Grbavica and see my friend
25 there and report on the situation and get back. By 1995 the ABiH was
1 imposing great movement restrictions. I was unable to get to the -- to
2 fighting going on roundabout Tuzla which I wanted to do. We were unable
3 directly to cover the fall of Glamoc and Grahovo, which were tipping
4 points in the war. So 1995 was a very frustrating time.
5 Q. And again just for those that might not be familiar with
6 geography or the makeup of the fall of Glamoc and Grahovo, where were
7 those villages located and what ethnicity predominated?
8 A. Those are -- those townships, really, were up against the
9 Croatian border and they were liberated, taken, use whatever words you
10 wish, by Croatian main force units.
11 Q. And now I would like to revisit the issue of some of your
12 sources. One of the sources that you have named in your prior statements
13 is of some interest to us in these proceedings.
14 MR. IVETIC: I would therefore like to call up 1D656 at this
15 time, which again will be the February 1996 statement that we looked at
16 previously, given to the Prosecutor of this Tribunal, and I would like to
17 take a look at page 11 of the same in English and page 12 of the B/C/S
18 translation. And I want to focus on, I believe, the fifth paragraph from
19 the top of the page in the English version, if I may.
20 Q. And I'd like to read this portion to you and then I will have
21 some follow-up questions for you, sir.
22 "I did Mostar mostly from the Croat side. It was so dangerous.
23 A good source for me was Jusuf Brezina nicknamed 'Yuka.' He had been a
24 small time hoodlum in Sarajevo before the war. He was an effective
25 defender of the city when the fighting began in April/May. When the
1 Bosnian army formed, he took off with his men to Mount Igman where they
2 set up their own base in a ski hotel. The Serbs came looking for him and
3 killed his second in command. He defected to the Croats and fought for
4 them and with them. In May 1993, he and 100 of his men were living in
5 block of JNA barracks in Mostar. Jeremy Bowen did the Muslim side.
6 Bowen is now a corespondent in Jerusalem. I was so close to the battle
7 in Mostar. I don't know who was running the war. I was moving where my
8 access was, and it was with Yuka."
9 And first of all, sir, I have to ask, this selection from your
10 statement, do you stand by the same today as being truthful and accurate
11 and would you repeat the same testimony if asked to do so under the
12 solemn declaration?
13 A. Yes, sir, I would.
14 Q. And now as a matter of clarification, the Jusuf Brezina with a B
15 who is mentioned here, is this actually an individual Juka Prazina,
16 P-r-a-z-i-n-a, an ethnic Bosnian Muslim who had been commander of an ABiH
17 unit in Sarajevo and indeed who had been a criminal before the war?
18 A. I -- what can I tell you? I always spelt his name with a B but
19 we called him Yuka.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. And when you say that you moved with Yuka, I
21 take that to mean in Mostar, did you have contact with him whilst he was
22 operating in the Sarajevo municipality as well?
23 A. No, I did not. Things were so confused and moving so rapidly. I
24 met him -- first one of my cameraman, a Croat knew him well, and made the
25 introduction. And one of the -- the first time I remember meeting him,
1 he had a rocket-propelled grenade on his shoulder on a street corner in
3 Q. In the course of becoming familiar with this gentleman and
4 spending time with him, did he become quite candid about his activities
5 that he had undertaken while in Sarajevo?
6 A. I cannot remember at this distance asking him what happened in --
7 in -- in Sarajevo. I -- I heard -- I believe that he was -- that
8 Haris Silajdzic was one of those who -- who wanted to get rid of the,
9 shall I -- shall we call them the freelance entrepreneurs on the
11 Q. And for the record at this time when he was in Mostar, he was
12 actually with the HVO, that is the Croat forces, and was indeed now
13 fighting against the Bosnian Muslims forces; is that accurate?
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. Do you know whether, in fact, he had engaged in fighting or
16 combat with his own force, that is the Bosnian Muslims forces, whilst in
18 A. My understanding is that he'd been fighting certainly alongside
19 the Bosnian Muslim forces. Yes. He was found dead in a ditch in Belgium
20 some years later.
21 Q. And now I'd like to move on. We received an information report
22 from the Prosecution late on Wednesday, that is the 30th of January, and
23 it identified that you had stated that you were never directly
24 experiencing any Mujahedin but you recall one incident in September 1995
25 involving beheadings. Could you please tell us if this information we
1 received is correct, and if you can any more details about these
2 beheadings involving Mujahedin?
3 A. I included this information -- the book I wrote, I wrote entirely
4 in the course of the war, and at the time I wrote it this incident had
5 not happened. It -- it is indisputable that it did happen. I've
6 included it in my new introduction to the -- to the new edition. And my
7 friends in Belgrade tell me one of the reasons that the Serbs had
8 difficulty in dealing with the political aftermath of the Srebrenica
9 massacre was, they said, "Look what happened to our people in this place
10 in September 1995."
11 Q. Can I take that, sir, that the incident, of which I only had the
12 information that I have given, related to Serbian victims of the
14 A. Yes, sir. They were Serbian -- Bosnian Serb soldiers who had
15 surrendered in the course of a battle and were held and then executed.
16 And there had been nothing of it at the time.
17 MR. IVETIC: And now I'd like to turn to -- I guess the statement
18 that we have up on the screen, if we could turn to the 12th page in
19 English and the 13th page in B/C/S.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber now receives information
21 which is new is not --
22 Could we ask you to get an impression of the incident you
23 describe, how many people were killed after they had surrendered? How
24 many Bosnian Serb soldiers were killed? Could you give us an idea?
25 THE WITNESS: From me?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: I am told it was in the order of about 50, Your
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And was it established to whom they had
5 surrendered and who had killed them as far as you --
6 THE WITNESS: It was -- it was later established, Your Honour,
7 but certainly at the time I was still -- my book was about to be
8 published and I only actually heard about it much later.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what did you hear about the perpetrators?
10 THE WITNESS: That they were the Mujahedin in Central Bosnia.
11 JUDGE ORIE: In Central Bosnia. Any further details as to the
12 location or?
13 THE WITNESS: I have it in the -- on my computer and in my book,
14 Your Honour, but not in my head.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- Mr. Groome.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if it assists the Chamber, these
17 matters were the subject of the Delic case before this Tribunal.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then at least not to say that we have now full
19 information about the incident you have added, but at least we have a
20 very rough impression now.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Q. Again I believe we are looking at the 12th page in English and
24 the 13th page in B/C/S of this statement you gave to the Office of the
25 Prosecutor, sir. And I'd like to focus on the second half of the page in
1 English, and the paragraphs -- there are two paragraphs there that relate
2 to some additional information relating to the Mujahedin that I would
3 like to ask you about. You say here:
4 "On January 14 I went to Lasva Valley. It was a case where some
5 Croats had lost some trench lines and took them back. They had killed
6 some Mujahedin. I don't think it had any political significance.
7 "On January 29th, an aid worker named Paul Godal was killed by
8 some out of control Mujahedin."
9 Can you first of all verify that these two paragraphs are
10 truthful and accurate and that you would stand by this testimony?
11 A. Yes. Yes, indeed, I stand by this testimony.
12 Q. And now then -- you also mentioned Mujahedin earlier in reference
13 to one of my earlier questions. The question I have for you now is: Did
14 you have information that the Bosnian Muslim president,
15 Alija Izetbegovic, had been involved in the formation of an all-Mujahedin
16 unit near Sarajevo that was several thousand strong?
17 A. It was always my understanding, Mr. Ivetic, that the -- that the
18 foreign fighters operated alongside the ABiH but not under their
19 commander and control. But this information -- your information may be
20 correct. I just don't know it.
21 Q. Let me ask you about what you did know. Would you agree -- or
22 could you agree that the Mujahedin were a feature in the former
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is, that they were present and active from the
24 beginning of the war and for the duration of the war?
25 A. I do not believe they were active at the beginning of the war.
1 But then those pictures of broken mosques and fallen minarets and tens of
2 thousands of fleeing Muslims, they had a big impact in the Arab and
3 Islamic world who responded with sending aid. I once flew into Sarajevo
4 on the floor of a Saudi aircraft. But come about the later months of
5 1992 and early 1993, foreign fighters started to infiltrate into
6 Central Bosnia and they -- they set up a base there. They were very
7 intimidating to the press and indeed to the -- the aid workers. The
8 reason we know about this, Paul Godal being killed, was two of the aid
9 convoy drivers, both British, were captured and they ran away and they
10 managed to escape.
11 Q. Thank you for that testimony, sir. I would now like to focus
12 again -- focus your attention to the moment you arrived at Sarajevo, and
13 I would like to try to get an idea of the situation that prevailed at the
14 time. And at paragraph 19 of your amalgamated statement or consolidated
15 statement --
16 MR. IVETIC: If we could have P832 MFI, and it will be page 6 in
17 both the B/C/S and the English versions the same so that people can
18 follow along.
19 Q. You -- well, I'll wait for it to come up. I apologise. At this
20 paragraph you talk about how when you arrived in Sarajevo in March of
21 1992 and how the ethnic parties had been established and that no
22 non-ethnic parties had a chance, can I get you to confirm that here what
23 you are talking about would be the ethnic political parties that were
24 divided amongst the Bosnian Croats, the Bosnian Serbs, and the
25 Bosnian Muslims?
1 A. Yes. Yes, Mr. Ivetic. That is true. I would only amplify that
2 by saying at the time there was a huge peace movement of local citizens
3 trying to head off the war that they saw coming, and they had a peace
4 march one of those days in early March, a demonstration, which was shot
5 at. And it was at that time that the first fatal casualty of the war
6 occurred, who was actually a Serb shot at a wedding party. And we
7 attended his funeral in the official cemetery which later became part of
8 the front line. And we wondered how many more. How many more.
9 Q. Okay. You raised two points. I'll deal with the last one first.
10 You say that the first fatal casualty of the war was a Serb shot at a
11 wedding party. Did you have any information as to the source of the fire
12 that had killed that Serb at the wedding party?
13 A. If I had, I have forgotten it, sir.
14 Q. And now I would like to discuss the first part of your answer
15 which dealt with a peace movement of local citizens, and I would direct
16 your attention to paragraph 21, at the bottom of the page in the English
17 of this statement, and it bleeds over to the next page. And I believe
18 here you are talking about a demonstration that was fired upon in
19 April of 1992. Is this the same incident that you have just identified,
21 A. No, this is a different demonstration. This one was a
22 demonstration of -- of -- of miners, among other people. I -- outside
23 the parliament building.
24 Q. You identify here in the statement, you say this was a big peace
25 demonstration in Sarajevo of Yugoslavs. Would you agree with me that
1 this would indicate that the participants of this march were precisely
2 the non-ethnic political groups that were opposed to the three ethnic
3 political parties that we mentioned earlier?
4 A. Yes, they saw themselves as Yugoslavs in the Tito'st tradition.
5 But of course these demonstrations did not last very long as the descent
6 into war was so rapid.
7 Q. Would you agree with me that during this time-period in Sarajevo,
8 that is March, April, and even May of 1992, the situation is quite
9 chaotic, tense, and unpredictable?
10 A. Yes, I think that's a good definition of it -- a description.
11 Q. Now, I would like to take a moment to view a video together with
12 you relating to some comments that a Mr. Colm Doyle made.
13 MR. IVETIC: For these purposes, Your Honours, I will be playing
14 the video twice, per the standing procedure that we have in the
15 courtroom, so that the audio can be checked with the booths. I have
16 given the transcripts that we have that were disclosed to us to the
17 booths, and I have the video queued.
18 Q. And so, sir, I will be playing it twice, and then after the
19 second time I will have some questions for you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, since we are playing a video now and
21 this is not in relation to you playing the video, but the French
22 interpreters have expressed concerns about the speed of speech not being
23 provided with the proper information. And I noticed that we have no
24 French translation on the record of the words spoken in those videos. We
25 also received information that the new procedure with the -- with CLSS
1 means that we still have to wait quite a while before it has been
3 Now, the whole new procedure was meant to save time in court. At
4 this moment it seems that it causes more problems than it saves time. I
5 just want to put this on the record, and also for the French
6 interpreters, for the French booth, to let them know that we'll pay
7 appropriate attention to the problems they have expressed.
8 But this was just because we are playing a video, Mr. Ivetic.
9 Please proceed with playing the video twice.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. And perhaps I can also assist the
11 booths. The videos that I have prepared -- the transcripts -- are
12 snippets from the entireties of the videos, and so the transcript that is
13 provided is all in its entirety, the selection that we are showing, so
14 there should not be a need to search through the transcript for the
15 appropriate part. I have tried to compartmentalise it so that from
16 beginning to end is the entirety of the selection that is being shown.
17 So I hope that assists the booths.
18 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, to interrupt. I didn't catch, first of all,
19 the 65 ter number. And can counsel just confirm to me that the
20 transcripts are the same transcripts that were in e-court last night in
21 relation to the videos?
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes. They were printed from e-court this morning
23 and distributed to the booths with the assistance of the usher. And it's
24 1D632 in e-court.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look at the video.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 "What I'm saying is there are paramilitary people in the city who
3 are under nobody's control and they come from all ethnic backgrounds.
4 And they have to come under someone's control because they, together with
5 others, are destroying the city."
6 MR. IVETIC: With your leave, Your Honours, I will now play it
7 the second time.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 "What I'm saying is there are paramilitary people in the city who
10 are under nobody's control and they come from all ethnic backgrounds.
11 And they have to come under someone's control because they, together with
12 others, are destroying the city."
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. Sir, first of all, having viewed this video with us, I would ask:
15 Do you remember having a role in making this video?
16 A. I interviewed Colm Doyle on a number of occasions, but I don't --
17 this could have been my interview but I have no recollection of it having
18 been so.
19 Q. Do you recall, based on the times that you interviewed
20 Mr. Colm Doyle, that he expressed sentiments either identical to or
21 similar to what we have seen in this video?
22 A. Yes. Yes, indeed, Mr. Ivetic. He was a -- he started off as a
23 European Community monitor and he became Lord Carrington's
24 representative. So he was the -- for this time he was representing the
25 international community on the ground.
1 Q. And for purposes of his reference to the city, would you -- do
2 you have an understanding of that to be Sarajevo?
3 A. I take that to be Sarajevo, yes, sir.
4 Q. Based on the knowledge and experiences that you had at the time,
5 would you agree with Mr. Doyle's comments as being accurate or would you
7 A. I think at that time -- I'd like to know the date of that, sir.
8 Do we have a date for that?
9 Q. Let me see if we ... unfortunately not, sir, all I have is that
10 it is from the original video V000-0799, which to me or to you does not
11 give a date, I don't think.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton.
13 MS. BOLTON: I might be able to assist, Your Honour. This is a
14 portion of a full report that starts at 48:05 and runs to 50:15, and I
15 think if the entire report were presented it would make clear what the
16 time-period is. It would ...
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the parties could agree on that, it would
18 be appreciated. The witness is now unaware.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 I guess at this time could I also tender the video and the
22 transcript as the next available Defence number.
23 MS. BOLTON: No, Your Honour. Actually, I do object. The
24 witness actually couldn't remember this interview and, in my respectful
25 submission, he's been presented with five seconds of an interview with no
1 context, no date.
2 I have no objection if my friend wants to put in the entire two-
3 or three-minute interview with the appropriate transcripts, but otherwise
4 there is no context at all for the Trial Chamber or for the witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC: Yes. Your Honours, the questions have been asked to
7 the witness as to the video, he has identified that the -- the situation
8 that he saw -- that he agreed with the comments made by Mr. Doyle, so it
9 has evidentiary value. I don't believe that I have to show entire videos
10 in court and use up my time doing so, nor do I have transcripts
11 necessarily of all videos.
12 And so I think that for the purpose of the testimony that this
13 witness has given, this video has meaning. It -- I haven't shown him the
14 rest of the report. It might be something that the Prosecution wants to
15 bring up in redirect. They have a right to do so. But for purposes of
16 the questions that I posed to the witness, this video I think suffices.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber wants the video to be MFI'd, would like
19 to be informed about context and about date, and we'll then finally
20 decide on admission.
21 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D632 receives number D166,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Q. Now if we can return back to the e-court. I think we still have
2 your statement up there. Yes. If we can return to paragraph 21 of your
3 statement. Here you had at that time said that you believed that the
4 shots came from Karadzic's people upon this peace movement. Would you
5 agree that you --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we scroll to paragraph 2. Thank you so
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. And I believe the statement as to
9 Karadzic's people is on page 7 in e-court of the English. I'll wait for
10 that too.
11 Q. And you say here that you believe that the shots came from the
12 direction of the Holiday Inn where you noted Karadzic had an office.
13 Would you agree that we cannot with any degree of certainty identify the
14 actual shooters, given the situation on the ground and the presence of
15 various ethnic-paramilitaries out with anyone's control?
16 A. Mr. Ivetic, this is why I phrased that as I did. The crowd
17 believed that it had been shot at by Karadzic's people, which is why it
18 storm the Holiday Inn. I don't think it was ever established who
19 actually fired the shot.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: Yes -- oh, I apologise.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Time for a break.
23 Yes. No, I'm five minutes too early, Mr. Ivetic.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. IVETIC: All right then. If we can turn to 1D654. Hopefully
1 I can get this in within the five minutes. This is the Karadzic
2 transcript of the 14th December, 2010; and if we can look at page 67 of
3 this document in e-court, which should be transcript page 9820. And I
4 would focus on line 17 through 24 to present the witness with this
6 Q. And, sir, if you could follow along, I will read to you:
7 "Q. Do you agree that from the very outset, there were numerous
8 groups, Muslim groups, that were armed and that were in town?
9 "A. There were certainly armed Muslim groups, and there were
10 armed Serb groups which appeared to me in many cases to be completely
11 ad hoc, so they had improvised.
12 "Q. Thank you. Do you agree that at first the JNA was expected
13 to be between the two parties and prevent the conflict?
14 "A. That was my understanding at the very beginning, yes."
15 Sir, can you confirm for us whether this selection from the
16 transcript that I have read -- do you stand by the same as being truthful
17 and accurate?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And, now, when Mr. Karadzic refers to "in town," are you and he
20 both talking about the town of Sarajevo in this selection?
21 A. Yes, the city of Sarajevo. Yes, sir.
22 Q. And if you could help us out, what time-period are you talking
23 about in this selection?
24 A. I am talking about the -- the -- the early period while Sarajevo
25 was descending into war. I remember there was a proposal at the -- at
1 this time, one of many proposals to bring peace and talk this down, for
2 joint JNA Muslim and Serb patrols but nothing ever came of it. But at
3 this stage the JNA was certainly seen as a potential mediator and a force
4 to come between -- possibly to come between the warring parties.
5 Q. And for the purpose of trying to tie it down, would you agree
6 that this would have been sometime in 1992, perhaps before April or --
7 A. What I'm talking about here, sir, is during the early days of
8 April after the peace demonstration was shot at. Or remembering that I,
9 myself, didn't reach Sarajevo till about the 8th of April.
10 Q. Thank you, sir.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think we are now at the time for the
13 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before the break, this is the
15 8th of April, 1992.
16 THE WITNESS: That is correct, sir.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break. Would you please follow the usher,
19 Mr. Bell.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at five minutes to 12.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.35 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.56 a.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
25 Since we are waiting for the witness, Mr. Groome, the dubious
1 role of Juka Prazina in Sarajevo, is that an issue which is in dispute?
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would need some time to examine that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. GROOME: I am happy to do that over the next break.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, what I'm doing, I'm explore to what
6 extent we hear evidence which is on matters which are in dispute.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 MR. GROOME: And again, Your Honour, the Prosecution's position
9 is that we are always willing to do that. We just want to be cautious
10 about making commitments or agreeing to facts that might not be reliable
11 off the top of my head.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, one of the issues here is that if
13 the Defence elicits evidence which is in support of its own case that
14 there, of course, is not much notice. And if that takes up to 60 or
15 70 per cent of the -- of the examination, then it may cause some
16 practical problems as far as court management is concerned.
17 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Q. Sir, I'd like to take a look at another aspect of this same
20 transcript that we still have up in e-court.
21 MR. IVETIC: If we can have the 57th page of the same, which
22 should correlate to transcript page 9810 of the original.
23 Q. And then if you'll please bear with me, sir, I want to walk you
24 through two questions and two answers that you gave from lines 18
25 onwards, and it will transfer on to lines 1 through 5 of the following
1 page as well once we get to there. So I'd like to begin:
2 "Q. At that time, we met, you and I, in the Serbian part of
3 Ilidza. Do you remember that we both had offices in the same hotel and
4 held press conferences there?
5 "A. Yes, indeed, I remember it vividly.
6 "Q. Thank you. Do you recall one attack by Muslim Green Berets
7 who fired even at your hotel where you were staying, although they were
8 not targeting you deliberately, but they were firing at the Serbian part
9 of Ilidza? I believe that was in April of 1992?
10 "A. Yes. I remember that attack vividly. In fact, I had a
11 bullet pass very close to my head and bury itself in the wall behind me
12 which I dug out and put in my pocket as a -- as a sort of a good luck
13 mascot. And a friend of mine, an agency cameraman, was quite badly
14 wounded in that attack."
15 And, sir, first of all, can you confirm the truthful --
16 truthfulness and accuracy of the statement that I have just read and if
17 you stand by the same today?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. And both -- well, Mr. Karadzic refers to Muslim Green Berets and
20 you do not -- you seem to understand what he's referring to. For
21 everyone else and for the record, could you verify whether in fact we are
22 talking about the Bosnian government forces loyal to
23 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, or are we talking about some ethnic-paramilitary
24 at this time?
25 A. This particular battle which lasted for most of the day I think
1 occurred on the 2nd of April, 1992, and in the course of these things you
2 can't identify what -- what the actual name or badge of the unit is
3 firing on you, but the firing was certainly coming from the government
4 held side of the lines, yes. And the cameraman was very badly wounded in
5 the arm.
6 Q. And yesterday during your direct examination you at one point had
7 mentioned that you were, I believe, bombed out of your hotel at some
8 point in time. And I'd like to ask you, sir, in fact the bombs, or the
9 grenades, or whatever they were, the shells that were coming that forced
10 you to leave your hotel, were those also coming from the government held
11 side of the lines?
12 A. It was a little bit more complex than that, Mr. Ivetic. I handed
13 over the whole operation to another BBC correspondent about the 7th of --
14 of May, and in the -- one of the days following that, the hotel in Ilidza
15 was subject to a mortar attack which one of the mortars actually exploded
16 in the -- in the BBC office or near it. The editing equipment was
17 damaged, and they took the collective decision to leave immediately.
18 There was a great press convoy that went out to -- to -- to Split. And,
19 of course, I wasn't -- I wasn't there then, but I was then the one who
20 had to come back in across the airport runway in the middle of June. So
21 I wasn't particularly grateful to my predecessor for this decision.
22 MR. IVETIC: And I'd like to now play another video. And this
23 one will be 65 ter 1D629. And again, Your Honours, I would follow the
24 same procedure with the playing of the video twice, and the transcript, I
25 believe, for the whole video from beginning to end is distributed to the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, may I ask a few additional
3 questions in order to better understand the basis of your knowledge.
4 You said in as far as the incident where your bullet hit you when
5 you were at the hotel, were you in the hotel? Were you outside of the
7 THE WITNESS: I was standing on a balcony of the hotel doing a
8 live broadcast to London for the morning news, and we came -- it didn't
9 hit me, but I could almost -- there is a certain -- you can -- you can
10 hear the sound of it and it hit the wall behind me. And I just -- I
11 said, I'm sorry, we've got to bring this to an end. It is endangering
12 the lives of the people with me. So that was the end of the broadcast.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And that hotel was approximately at what distance
14 from the confrontation line?
15 THE WITNESS: It was quite close. I would think that the
16 confrontation line would be around 200, 300 metres away.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that made you conclude that the shot was
18 fired from the other side of the confrontation line?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. I took it rather personally, actually,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can imagine. Thank you for that
23 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Playing the video the
25 first time.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 "The Serbs here are on the defensives, but holding the line. The
3 front line ... to the west of the city, in the area of ... city heartland
4 which had been the secure headquarters both of the European Community
5 observers and of the foreign press. A morning cold ... barrel of the
6 gun. Many guns on both sides. This is a mainly Serbian enclave. And it
7 seems that the Muslims ... withe their relative success in the city
8 centre late yesterday ... they were met with stuff resistance by the
9 Serbs. Into the battle of fire and movement in which the Serbs were
10 trying to improve their positions three by three, across the parkland.
11 It was also dangerous obviously for the photographers. The veteran VIZ
12 news cameraman Rob ... who shot these pictures is the ... forward and
13 paid penalty for it. He was taken to an army hospital and then turned to
14 Belgrade where he is now safe. It was up to this point the federal
15 army's only involvement into the battle.
16 "An 11.00 a.m. ceasefire deadline came and went and the flighting
17 after it was, if anything, fiercer than it was before. There is no
18 mediation. There are no peace talks. Only Serbs and Muslims battling it
19 out ... peacemakers were here on the spot, a dangerous one. They
20 included the personal envoy of Lord Carrington who was due to visit
22 "We have to consider whether or not at this stage of this
23 important visit ...
24 "Or if the will for peace is here.
25 "We don't know whether it is at the moment. We've made a lot of
1 appeals. The situation is very serious. We are not too sure what we are
2 going to do at this stage.
3 "The battle lasted for a full ten hours. Only then did it begin
4 to subside. The Serbs had held their positions, but at a cost which both
5 sides are still counting. One of the Serbian soldiers told me how three
6 of his comrades fell fighting alongside him.
7 "My cousin, two my cousins, and one my best friend. I don't know
8 what talk about, but it was very bad."
9 MR. IVETIC: And now, Your Honours, the second playing.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 "The Serbs here are on the defensives, but holding the line. The
13 front line ... to the west of the city, in the area of ... city heartland
14 which had been the secure headquarters both of the European Community
15 observers and of the foreign press. A morning cold ... barrel of the
16 gun. Many guns on both sides. This is a mainly Serbian enclave. And it
17 seems that the Muslims ... withe their relative success in the city
18 centre late yesterday ... they were met with stuff resistance by the
19 Serbs ..."
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's stop. I receive a message from the French
21 booth that the transcript is not complete and that it goes too quick for
22 simultaneous translation.
23 Therefore, Mr. Ivetic, could you try to find out as soon as
24 possible or by any of the other team members where apparently an
25 incompleteness of the transcript has been established.
1 MR. IVETIC: If I could inquire, I do know that when I handed
2 them out there was some that were doubled sided. Is it perhaps that the
3 second part is on the other page.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And now the French channel again, Mr. Ivetic does
5 not exclude for the possibility that the transcripts being handed out are
6 double sided?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The transcript is
8 incomplete in the sense that there are some sentences missing on the
9 one-sided page that we have received.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It is apparently that sentences are missing,
11 Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: It is possible, Your Honours. These are the -- it
13 is my understanding these were the transcripts that were used in the
14 Karadzic case, but I obviously have no way of, at this stage, correcting
15 any deficiencies apart from having the video submitted for transcription,
16 I guess, by CLSS at the conclusion of its use in court. I am at
17 Your Honour's indulgence as to how to proceed.
18 JUDGE ORIE: What I would do -- of course, you should verify, if
19 it comes from another case, whether it's accurate, yes or no. I mean,
20 that's our daily job here in this courtroom, to see whether the material
21 is accurate.
22 We cannot proceed like this unless -- if you don't need to rely
23 on the text, then the witness at least has seen the video. So if there
24 are any questions you would put to him without relying on the text, then
25 we could perhaps at a later stage see whether -- whether we could use the
1 text by other means.
2 MR. IVETIC: I could proceed that way, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do so.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. Sir, first of all, with respect to this particular clip, do you
6 confirm that it is a piece that you had a role in preparing or providing?
7 A. Yes, sir. It was my reporting for the BBC. It was dated the
8 22nd of April, 1992.
9 Q. And is this the incident that we had just discussed from the
10 Karadzic transcript wherein your friend and agency cameraman was quiet
11 badly wounded?
12 A. Yes, that is so.
13 Q. And does it accurately depict the scene as you remember it?
14 A. Absolutely.
15 Q. And now am I correct that the only involvement of the JNA was in
16 assisting in the urgent evacuation of the wounded cameraman and that the
17 JNA did not take part in the fighting?
18 A. That is correct, sir.
19 Q. Do you recall that the JNA had already been planning to withdraw
20 but it had been repeatedly attacked by the armed Bosnian Muslim forces in
21 the days prior to this incident?
22 A. Certainly, the -- the JNA was -- was planning to withdraw, but it
23 was encircled in the -- the barracks which were General Kukanjac's
25 Q. And was it your information and recollection at the time that
1 both the Serbs and Muslim sides were well armed for purposes of this
3 A. The -- the -- as far as I can judge and I could judge at the
4 time, the -- both sides were using small arms and mortars in the -- in
5 the battle for this hotel in Ilidza. And as for the barracks when I went
6 there, before the pullout they showed me some of the shell fragments, the
7 mortars that had landed in their compound. In fact, they had them all
8 laid out on a table.
9 Q. And --
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I guess at this time I should probably
11 ask for the video to be MFI'd pending the procedure that we discussed and
12 before I move on to another document.
13 MS. BOLTON: I wouldn't object to that, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D629 receives number D167,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Q. At this time I would like to take a look at another clip with
21 you, and hopefully with the first read-through we'll hear feedback from
22 the booths as to whether the transcript is sufficient or not. And in
23 case it isn't, I would ask you at least follow along with the first
24 viewing, sir, so if we have to rely upon just asking questions on the
25 scenes that we may do so.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I will change at the end of the first round of
2 playing this video, I'll move to the French channel and see whether there
3 are any comments.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 "Martin Bell: There has been a gun battle going on around this
8 hotel" --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Can we please have the number.
10 MR. IVETIC: This is number 1D631.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And could we restart it.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 "Martin Bell: There has been a gun battle going on around this
15 hotel in the parkland all morning ... it is quite intense. We have now
16 been told and rather the European Community monitors have been warned
17 that this place has been targeted for incoming mortar fire some time
18 around now. So it's not a very comfortable situation ... that is a hard
19 one to say ... the -- the -- I'm sorry, it's a little bit disturbing,
20 some of this noise. The Muslims are in a very difficult position
21 geographically. The Serbs have ... and the Serbs and army have them
22 surrounded. On the other hand, the Muslims fought back strongly
23 yesterday, and as far as I can tell what's going on here is ... match."
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, before proceeding with the second
25 playing --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I now move to the French channel.
2 I again received a message that the transcript is not complete,
3 Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: May we then have it marked for identification and
5 I'll ask the witness questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the basis -- Ms. Bolton.
7 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I have a further concern with this video,
8 which is similar to a previous issue which is again this is an excerpt of
9 a report and the context, I think, is -- or some of what is being shown
10 is qualified. If the full report is played, there is additional
11 information the Prosecution would want to rely on. And I'm trying to
12 avoid the situation of having to play that in re-examination.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Usually if an excerpt of a book or a video or
14 whatever is played or shown to the Chamber, the other party is always
15 entitled to ask for -- for context and adding portions, yes or no. I do
16 not know whether the entirety of this video is available to the
18 MS. BOLTON: I have the entire clip located, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you can have a look at it. You can ask if
20 you think that this distorts what the clip really is about, then you can,
21 of course at a later stage, you can try to have that added. Now if
22 that's impossible today, we'll have to see whether it's -- the context
23 which makes sense to give without the witness or whether we would have to
24 recall the witness for that, and we'll then see how matters develop. At
25 this time it's marked for identification.
1 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And this may serve as guidance for the Prosecution
3 and for the Defence in similar circumstances.
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D631 receives number D168,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
10 Q. Sir, having seen the video portion, can you identify just by
11 having looked at the pictures when this one would have been prepared and
12 if it was prepared by -- obviously by someone affiliated with your
14 A. It's -- it's the same battle, the beginning of it, and the date
15 is the 22nd of April, 1992.
16 Q. And is this the time-period -- strike that. And does this appear
17 to be an authentic clip from your report that you were preparing for the
18 BBC at that time?
19 A. It was what we call a live two-way into their -- into their
20 morning news. The reason the cameraman weaves about and take pictures of
21 everybody else is there was a -- the European Broadcasting Union was
22 co-ordinating all our reports at that time and they wanted to make some
23 publicly for themselves about how they were performing under fire, so
24 there was a second camera taking wider pictures of the same, but the BBC
25 camera was on me there. It was a straight-forward two-way interview for
1 the BBC morning news, and what you played earlier was a report assembled
2 at the end of the ten hours fighting.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you one additional question. We saw a
4 white building in the background. Was that still on the same side of the
5 confrontation line you were, or was it --
6 THE WITNESS: The building you saw, Your Honour, was another part
7 of the same hotel complex. There was a Hotel Serbia and Hotel Bosnia,
8 all part of the same hotel complex.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And the confrontation line was, looking at the
10 video, left, right?
11 THE WITNESS: Looking -- it was to the right of the hotel where
12 the cameraman got wounded because the fire was coming from there.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
16 Q. Sir, I'd like to now move to other matters you have personal
17 knowledge of. And I'd like to turn back to your statement.
18 MR. IVETIC: So if we can have P832 MFI in e-court. And I will
19 be looking at paragraph 65, which is on page 18 of the English and
20 page 19 of the B/C/S. Thank you.
21 Q. Now here you are discussing an incident from the
22 2nd of May, 1992, when the elements of the Bosnian government side
23 attacked the JNA officers' club. And you say here:
24 "They did not wish to be observed by the press."
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which paragraph?
1 MR. IVETIC: Sixty-five. I apologise. The quote is in the
2 middle of that paragraph.
3 Q. And I want to ask you, first of all, with relation to this
4 incident, do you know if there were casualties on the JNA side arising
5 from the same?
6 A. I don't know, sir. I was -- I was -- we were intimidated out of
7 it -- out of this -- what's called a Dom Armija, and we were shown very
8 clearly at gunpoint that our -- this is by Muslim government backed
9 militia, that our presence was not welcome. And then we retreated to the
10 main street and it was a heavy battle.
11 Q. And I want to focus on this intimidation or this -- how you
12 describe it, that they did not wish to be observed by the press. Did
13 this type of treatment and position persist even later in the war; that
14 is, that the Bosnian Muslim side did not wish its activities to be
15 reported by the press?
16 A. I found it unusual to have been threatened in quite this way, a
17 bloke pointing his gun at you. There were other cases later in the war.
18 There was one where a Serb family was evicted from a block of high-rise
19 apartments near the television station and a cameraman went to try and
20 find out what was happening -- a photographer, rather, and he got all his
21 tyres shot at. It was unusual but it did happen occasionally.
22 Q. And I'd like to revisit the Karadzic transcript at this time from
23 the 15th of September, 2010.
24 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up 1D655 in e-court. And if we could
25 turn to page 9 of this document in e-court. That should be transcript
1 page 9863 of the Karadzic transcript.
2 Q. And I would focus on line 16 through 23 of that page. And if you
3 could follow along, sir, I'll have some questions for you after I read
4 this into the record:
5 "Q. Actually, we establish here, Mr. Bell, that the Muslims
6 concealed their weaponry from the UN rather skillfully. Did they allow
7 you access to their heavy weapons in town? Were you aware of the
8 deployment of their heavy weapons in town?
9 "A. I was aware that they had at least one tank in a tunnel.
10 Occasionally, we would come across their mortar positions, and it became
11 a very sensitive issue with their field security, so that if we showed
12 their mortars firing, we might suffer the consequences."
13 And first, sir, can I ask you if you can confirm if you stand by
14 this testimony from the Karadzic proceedings as being truthful and
15 accurate today having taken the solemn declaration?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And am I correct that this would relate to a time-period much
18 later than May of 1992? Could you assist us about that?
19 A. They certainly -- the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina became much
20 more -- much more like a regular army as the time passed, and this
21 included a tightening of its field security. And the people we were
22 dealing with were worried that if we showed their mortars firing; for
23 instance, there was one mortar position on the low ground just to the
24 east of the Turkish fort, and we had a big debate among ourselves whether
25 we should use it or whether we'd be retaliated against and our movements
1 restricted. And I think probably we decided to play safe. But this was
2 a development much later in the war, at the time when our access was
3 being limited in a way.
4 I would also add that they were, of course, the -- the government
5 forces were outgunned in heavy weapons from the start to the finish of
6 the siege. They didn't have that many.
7 Q. And -- and when you say "you might suffer the consequences," what
8 kind of consequences could you expect? Was anything ever threatened or
9 made known to you about the result of any action to show their positions
10 or their use of heavy weapons?
11 A. I do remember a time when -- when Sky News ran some footage of
12 mortars being fired from a position about half a mile from the television
13 station, and the authorities got very upset about it and were -- were
14 certainly threatening to withdraw Sky News accreditation. But we were --
15 we were all under -- you know, in a sense you're -- you're the guests of
16 the -- of the -- of the authorities on the side out of which you -- we --
17 out of which you operate, and it was a particularly difficult time.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question: Did they finally withdraw
19 the Sky News accreditation?
20 THE WITNESS: No, they do not, sir. No they did not,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: They did not.
23 THE WITNESS: No.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. IVETIC: I now want to now return again to your statement
1 briefly, P873 MFI, and paragraphs 66 of the same which again will be on
2 page 18 in the English version and page 19 of the B/C/S.
3 Q. And while we wait for that, sir, I can let you know that the part
4 of the paragraph that I am talking about deals with the ambush of the JNA
5 convoy by the Bosnian Muslim forces. And can you first of all clarify
6 for us that this is in fact the incident that you mentioned earlier in
7 cross-examination where you had contacted your editors and told them what
8 happened and they had asked are you sure?
9 A. Yes, sir. It is indeed that same incident.
10 Q. Could you give us a little more detail about this incident in
11 terms of was this convoy, in fact, part of a planned and previously
12 agreed withdrawal of the JNA in compliance with the United Nations
13 resolutions that the JNA withdraw to the new boundaries of Yugoslavia?
14 A. It was certainly a -- a limited exchange that had been agreed
15 between General Kukanjac, who had to get out of the city, and
16 Alija Izetbegovic who had been kidnapped by the Serbs the night before
17 with his daughter on his return from -- from Lisbon, and this was
18 negotiated locally by the United Nations and it went wrong.
19 MR. IVETIC: And I have a video. And again, Your Honour, I would
20 suggest that we play it through once and see if we have the same issues
21 with the translations -- or, excuse me, the transcripts. If we do, then
22 I would follow the same procedure that we use for the first couple.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way to find out whether the matters you
24 want to deal with is -- are in dispute, or? I mean, your last question
25 was whether it was announced, I think, compliance that -- whether it was
1 a planned and previously agreed withdrawal.
2 Is there any dispute about that, Ms. Bolton?
3 MS. BOLTON: No, we heard evidence on that from Mr. Doyle.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which does not mean that there is no dispute.
5 Sometimes you hear evidence where you still dispute. But I do understand
6 that it's not in dispute.
7 That, Mr. Ivetic, again, let's try to elicit evidence from this
8 witness on matters which are in dispute. But let's play the video --
9 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, what number is it?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: I have listed 1D633.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look at it for the first time.
13 And Ms. Bolton, if you will please be very alert on matters where
14 you say the Prosecution agrees with what it sees or what it asked of the
16 [Video-clip played]
17 "This army is staying in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he said. We are
18 withdrawing from certain areas, especially those most under attack, but
19 we will continue to be the army of the people who shelter and accept us.
20 Outside of the room where he was talking, the evidence of the most recent
21 attack. His headquarters at the old part of town was shot at again last
22 night. This is an angry general. Mortars, rockets, snipers, bazookas,
23 heavy machine-guns, he listed the weapons used against the headquarters
24 and produced the evidence. What he called his souvenirs along with the
25 warning against whoever might try it again.
1 "If we are attacked we shall retaliate fiercely.
2 "He ... was a declaration of war by the Croats and Muslims led by
3 President Alija Izetbegovic. The army until now has been more neutral in
4 this war than it was in Croatia but its patience is strained. It was
5 moving today to the Serbian side of the lines and taking its big guns
6 with it.
7 "Martin Bell, BBC News, Sarajevo."
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'll first move again to the French
9 channel to see whether they have complete transcript.
10 There is a complete transcript available. So you may play it for
11 the second time.
12 MS. BOLTON: I am sorry to interrupt, Your Honour. I just want
13 to note that the transcript that's provided actually continues for
14 several paragraphs, and I would just ask that perhaps when they are filed
15 we file one separate transcript for each segment on -- that's played,
16 because right now you might read it and think that this is all one
17 continuous conversation and it's not.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that what will be tendered is exclusively
19 the portions that were played, but we'll see it at the very end whether
20 it's covers all of it, yes or no. At this moment, Mr. Ivetic, may play
21 for a second time, and we'll have French translation of the audio.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely, Your Honours. And I can also -- I guess
24 for the record we have stopped at 1 minute and 7 seconds of this video.
25 There is material afterwards. I was hoping to not spend time if we had a
1 bad translation to view the whole thing but --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 "This army is staying in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he said. We are
6 withdrawing from certain areas, especially those most under attack, but
7 we will continue to be the army of the people who shelter and accept us.
8 Outside of the room where he was talking, the evidence of the most recent
9 attack. His headquarters at the old part of town was shot at again last
10 night. This is an angry general. Mortars, rockets, snipers, bazookas,
11 heavy machine-guns, he listed the weapons used against the headquarters
12 and produced the evidence. What he called his souvenirs along with the
13 warning against whoever might try it again.
14 "If we are attacked we shall retaliate fiercely.
15 "He ... was a declaration of war by the Croats and Muslims led by
16 President Alija Izetbegovic. The army until now has been more neutral in
17 this war than it was in Croatia but its patience is strained. It was
18 moving today to the Serbian side of the lines and taking its big guns
19 with it.
20 "Martin Bell, BBC News, Sarajevo."
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. Sir --
23 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. Sir, first of all, this clip that we have seen, can you confirm
1 the authenticity of the clip? Is it one that you had a role in
3 A. Yes, sir. I was there.
4 Q. And, first of all, the gentleman that was at the beginning of the
5 clip in the military uniform, do you know who that was?
6 A. That was General Kukanjac.
7 Q. And with which armed force was he affiliated?
8 A. He was -- he was a general in the JNA.
9 Q. And he recounted attacks by various weapons, including mortars,
10 bazookas, heavy machine-guns, et cetera, was it your recollection that he
11 also mentioned anything about casualties that had been endured by his
12 forces as part of that attack by the opposing force?
13 A. No, he did not mention casualties which suggested to me that
14 there had not been any because he certainly would have mentioned
15 casualties if there had been.
16 Q. And was it your understanding at this point in time that the JNA
17 had restrained itself and had not returned fire upon those who had fired
18 upon it; that is to say, the Bosnian forces that were attacking?
19 A. That was the case at the time, Mr. Ivetic. We are talking about
20 the very early days in May 1992, but [indiscernible] the situation did
22 Q. And by that time, the very early days in May 1992, is it accurate
23 based upon your knowledge of information that the -- that the
24 Bosnian Muslim side had for several days attacked this JNA headquarters?
25 A. Yes. I think the -- the evidence is -- is undeniable. Now,
1 whether you'd classify these as heavy weapons, I don't think that they
2 were. Not in the usual definition.
3 Q. With regard to the ambush that you discuss in your statement,
4 which I believe is paragraph 66, on the 3rd of May, did you have
5 information at that time that around the same date there were other such
6 incidents throughout the remainder of Bosnia-Herzegovina where JNA
7 convoys or JNA positions were ambushed or attacked by Bosnian government
8 or Bosnian Muslim armed forces?
9 A. I think, Mr. Ivetic, that all I knew at that time was -- was what
10 I reported there, because the communications across Bosnia were beginning
11 to break down.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we could have this first clip going
13 from 0 to 1 minute and 7 seconds of 1D633 marked for identification
14 pending, I guess, uploading a transcript that is limited to it and
15 providing perhaps even an excerpt that is limited to just the portion
16 that we viewed and which the witness has testified about.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D633 receives number D169,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Q. Now I'd like to return to your statement.
23 MR. IVETIC: So if we could please have up in e-court P873, MFI.
24 And I'd like to look at paragraphs 23 through 41. So if we could first
25 start off on page 7 in English and page 7 in the B/C/S as well.
1 Q. And, sir, according to my notes, paragraphs 23 through 41, which
2 covers pages 7 through 9 of your statement in both languages, relate to
3 the evidence as to Zvornik and to Arkan and his forces. In any event,
4 this particular set of events, am I correct that all of these events
5 relating to Zvornik, to Bijeljina, and to Arkan in respect to these two
6 places all date from April of 1992?
7 A. I believe there was an eviction of Muslims from Bijeljina later
8 in the war, but this is very specifically actually more about -- about
9 Zvornik than Bijeljina and the -- and the territory in land where the
10 Bosnian Muslims were fleeing from their villages.
11 Q. And with respect to these events that were recounted at these
12 paragraphs of your statement, again paragraphs 23 through 41, I believe
13 you have the hard copy and can leaf through them to see which ones I am
14 talking about. But I'd like to find out with respect to these specific
15 incidents of which you have in your direct examination and in your
16 statement provided evidence, if these are limited to April of 1992 as far
17 as Zvornik is concerned with the caveat that you do mention seeing Arkan
18 in 1994 in Serbia. But that the events in Zvornik are all April of 1992.
19 If you can --
20 A. Certainly down to paragraph 31. It is about these particular
21 places and about Arkan himself.
22 Q. Thank you. Sir. And would you agree that that is all April of
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. And perhaps -- and likewise, you have some discussions there of
1 meetings or encounters with Arkan that deal with 1991. For instance,
2 seeing him in Erdut; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. I became aware of him as -- as a force in the Croatian
4 civil war when my colleagues from French television came in with some
5 quite remarkable footage of the Serb's capture of a village called
6 Laslovo. So I then went to see him in Erdut and I go to know him really
7 well, and I -- sometimes I would visit him in the ice-cream parlor that
8 he ran near the gates of Red Star football -- football club, and he even
9 offered me membership of Red Star football club. I -- I -- I used him
10 for -- because he was -- he was doing things, and access is everything in
11 war reporting, and if you only dealt with people you liked you wouldn't
12 get very far.
13 Q. Understood, sir. Now with respect to this time-period when you
14 were meeting with Arkan in 1991, when you were reporting upon --
15 reporting about events in Zvornik and Bijeljina in 1992, would you agree
16 with me that this was all during the time-period that we previously
17 discussed when there were ethnic paramilitaries of all ethnicities
18 operating at least in Sarajevo, pursuant to the testimony we discussed
19 when we viewed the video from Mr. Doyle. Would you agree that it's all
20 within the same time-period?
21 A. It's all within the same time-period, but Arkan's Tigers, as they
22 were called, were by far the most formidable and best organised of any
23 paramilitary group that I met in either war.
24 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour, my friend suggested that the
25 time-period that had already been discussed in terms of Sarajevo included
1 1991, and for the record, in fact, all that's been discussed with respect
2 to Sarajevo is with respect to 1992.
3 MR. IVETIC: That is correct. And I apologise if I misspoke.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since we are -- since the flow of evidence is
5 interrupted anyhow, I'd like to deal with a few practical matters.
6 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We were supposed to take the next break at 1.00 and
8 then resume at 20 minutes past 1.00, which would leave us another
9 55 minutes until a quarter past 2.00.
10 First, Mr. Ivetic, could you tell us whether you are on track?
11 MR. IVETIC: I am.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that you would --
13 MR. IVETIC: Which means, Your Honours, that I have approximately
14 one hour left.
15 JUDGE ORIE: One hour left. That would mean that first
16 15 minutes now, then you would need until five minutes past 2.00.
17 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, as matters stand now, how much time
19 would you need for re-examination?
20 MS. BOLTON: There -- the difficulty I have, Your Honours, with
21 respect to the portions of the videos that I would want to put to the
22 witness, and so I think probably I'm looking at about 20 minutes,
23 25 minutes right about now.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that we run over quarter past 2.00. At
25 the same time, we all know that we have a videolink for next Monday. I
1 suggest the following: That we -- and I'm also looking at you,
2 Mr. Lukic, that we extend the last session, although unfortunately I'm
3 unable to sit on from quarter past 2.00, but I do understand that my
4 colleagues are willing to sit under Rule 15 bis for the last perhaps
5 15 to 20 minutes.
6 Mr. Ivetic, you have got time until five minutes past 2.00.
7 Ms. Bolton will then have another 20 to 25 minutes in an extended session
8 which gives us the expectation that we could finish at 2.30. We'll
9 proceed in this way.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thirty more minutes until the break, Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Q. Sir, I apologise. Perhaps I can get you back to the frame of
14 thought we had when we were doing the questions. These events in Zvornik
15 and Bijeljina in April of 1992, am I correct that they all predate the
16 arrival of General Mladic to the army of the Bosnian Serbs which was in
17 fact in May of 1990 [sic], if you know?
18 A. This is beyond my knowledge. I was not aware of exactly when he
19 took command. But, yes, it was in the very early days of the war. And I
20 think the actual date of the Zvornik report was the 10th of April.
21 Q. Thank you for that additional information.
22 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to look at 1D656, which is a previous
23 statement that you have given to the Office of the Prosecutor, dated
24 February of 1996. And I'd like to turn to page 5 of the same in the
25 English and page 6 in the B/C/S. And --
1 JUDGE ORIE: When waiting for it, I just wanted to point out that
2 page 81, line 22, the reference was to May of 1992.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. IVETIC: Yes. And thank you, Your Honours, for catching
5 that. I'd missed that.
6 Q. Sir, if we look at the last paragraph on the page in English, and
7 if you could follow along I would have some questions for you relating to
8 the same after reading into the record. And I begin:
9 "Arkan's troops were not always in theater. He was not seen in
10 the war zones between spring 1992 and autumn 1995. Arkan, I believe, was
11 not welcome as long as Mladic was in control and the front lines were
12 holding. I don't believe he was called to action by anyone in 1995 ..."
13 First of all, sir, can you confirm the accuracy and truthfulness
14 of this part of your 1996 statement and would you so testify here today
15 after having taken the solemn declaration?
16 A. Yes, I can confirm that, that's accurate. But I have one thing
17 to add, Mr. Ivetic.
18 Q. Go ahead, sir.
19 A. Which is that I did hear towards the end of the war that Arkan
20 and his men were active in the defence of Sanski Most.
21 Q. I apologise. I believe that's the continuation of this line. I
22 perhaps should have read to the end. But with that caveat you do accept
23 this to be accurate and truthful?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And can we take from that, sir, that General Mladic, according to
1 your information, did not tolerate paramilitaries or irregulars and
2 attempted to route them out once he took over the VRS in spring of 1992?
3 A. It was my impression in dealing with the VRS that they were
4 organised as a -- as a professional army. They -- the soldiers admired
5 the accused. They did not wear the -- the emblems of the sort of
6 paramilitaries that we saw, sort of rogue elements, operating in Vukovar,
7 for instance. And if you were -- if you dealt with them a lot, they set
8 great store by what they called correctness. If they called me correct,
9 I knew I was getting along well with them, and they sometimes did.
10 Q. And, sir, perhaps for purposes of context, if we can look at your
11 statement, P873, page -- pardon me, P873, MFI'd, and if we can look at
12 paragraphs 113 and 114, at page 29 in English and page 31 in the B/C/S.
13 And again it's page 29 in the English.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, I think you misspoke. The number
15 can't be correct. It is P832.
16 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. That is correct. I apologise. P832,
17 MFI'd. And it's page 29 in the English, page 31 in the B/C/S;
18 paragraphs 113 and 114.
19 Q. And, sir, when those come up, or perhaps in the hard copy if you
20 have it in front of you, the evidence you have just given is in part
21 encapsulated in these paragraphs, and you go into some more detail here
22 where -- at least you compare General Mladic to General Schwarzkopf in
23 113 and then in 114 you say that:
24 "Under Mladic the army stopped wearing Chetnik symbols and
25 adopted a more organised military style of approach than before."
1 Would you agree with me that these changes instituted by
2 General Mladic didn't happen overnight. It took some time for these
3 changes to take effect, especially to reach the local level units and
4 local level commanders. Was that your experience?
5 A. I think this was a reasonable inference, yes, sir. But we
6 were -- you know, we were also hassled and intimidated on a regular basis
7 at road blocks, sort of low level hooliganism. It was not an easy time
8 in which to get about.
9 Q. And would you agree that during this time-period there was also a
10 severe shortage of mid-level non-commissioned officers within the ranks
11 of the VRS?
12 A. I was not aware of this at the time, but it certainly wouldn't
13 surprise me. You don't create a standing army in a time of war
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I believe we are right about at the
17 time for the break.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think you are now five minutes early, Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I apologise. Then I can continue.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you for that, Your Honours.
22 Q. I wish to now turn to 1D648, which again will be your book, sir.
23 And I'd like to turn to page 11 in e-court of the same, which, according
24 to my notes, ought to be page 108 of the hard copy of your publication.
25 And it's the middle paragraph on the left side of the screen and I'd like
1 to have you following along, sir, as I read it into the record:
2 "The other thing that I came to understand was that the Serbs'
3 vaunted military superiority was actually quite fragile, and the
4 juggernaut of their army was very far from invincible. They were fully
5 mobilised and permanently overstretched across 800 miles of front line.
6 They had no more resources of manpower to draw on. This was an army
7 which already included all men of military age and some beyond it. On
8 the front lines at Trebevic, overlooking Sarajevo, where the men served
9 two weeks at a time in primitive conditions, it looked like a muster of
10 grandfathers under arms. The Serbs were heavily outnumbered by already
11 rearmed Muslims. They were increasingly vulnerable to infantry attacks,
12 and they were genuinely tired of the war."
13 First of all, sir, this selection that I read from your book, do
14 you stand by these words and would you testify the same way today under
15 the solemn declaration?
16 A. Yes, sir. I'm actually rather proud of them. I think I got it
18 Q. And would you agree with me that at this time most of the other
19 members of the press corps were comitted to a different image of the
20 Serbs as being ruthless warmongers or blood thirsty Chetniks?
21 A. I don't think that I can answer for other members of the press
22 corps but I can for what I wrote. And if I may just add I discussed this
23 extensively in Pale, socially with Dr. Koljevic, Professor Koljevic, and
24 Jovan Zametica, and I said, Look, if this goes on, you're -- you're going
25 to lose. The Serbs -- the Muslims are getting stronger and you're
1 getting weaker. It can only have one end. And whoever I was talking to
2 he said, We don't aware. That's a strange thing to say.
3 Q. Apologise. I'm waiting for the transcript. And so we can place
4 this temporally within our greater picture to understand your testimony,
5 am I correct that this testimony relates to the third and fourth years of
6 the war, that would be 1994 and 1995?
7 A. From the -- the time of the -- of Operation Storm in Croatia,
8 when the front lines in Bosnia started to change, and I wrote of this
9 extensively, and Dr. Karadzic started wearing a combat uniform jacket,
10 and he was -- he looked -- wanted to look more of a political commander,
11 and we realised then that they had no reserve lines to fall back on
12 because they had never thought that they'd need them, and so they could
13 be rolled up quite quickly which is what happened towards the end.
14 Q. And is this also the same time-period when General Smith, the
15 head of UNPROFOR, initiated air and artillery strikes against the Serbs?
16 A. Yes, it was all in this time-frame and of course they were all --
17 they were all connected.
18 Q. And was it your impression that General Smith had somehow changed
19 the rules as far as air-strikes against the Serbs by -- at the behest of
20 UNPROFOR by NATO were concerned?
21 A. He certainly had -- had -- had the key in his hand. The UN had
22 to turn the key. I think General Janvier was away. But I think the
23 rules were, in fact, changed by the second London conference. And as
24 I've also written, I think the -- the -- when as the evidence of what had
25 happened at Srebrenica began to come to light subsequent to July 1995,
1 that was -- also made a forced or negotiated end game necessary.
2 Q. Thank you, sir.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, now I believe I am at the time for the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are, Mr. Ivetic.
6 Could the witness follow the usher.
7 We take a break of 20 minutes.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 1.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 1.01 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Q. Mr. Bell, would you agree with me that unfortunately the
17 governments of the policies makers, such as the United States and
18 Great Britain, were largely relying on the media to inform them and bring
19 them up to speed about the Balkans during the time-period of 1992 and
20 1995 rather than expending their own actions to become more knowledgeable
21 before making decisions?
22 JUDGE ORIE: That's seven questions in one, Mr. Ivetic. And
23 apart from that, could you please lay a foundation to know exactly what
24 this witness says -- knows about how the governments and the policies
25 makers, that's quite a large group of people, what they did and how they
1 did it and why they did it.
2 You may proceed.
3 THE WITNESS: Shall I answer the many-sided question?
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. If you can, sir.
6 A. I'll do my best. They had -- the governments had many sources of
7 information. I don't think they were -- they were very favorable to the
8 media reports. I was once described as a founding member of the
9 "Something must be done" club. So I think they had many sources of
10 information, including their own national contingents in the
11 United Nations.
12 Q. I'd like to look at something from your book, which I think we
13 still have up on the screen. If we could turn to page 22 in e-court,
14 which correlates to page 145 in the text. And I'd like to present this
15 to you, sir, which was the bases for my question. The paragraph is on
16 the second page, that is on the right-hand side, the second paragraph
17 from the bottom. And begins:
18 "The Americans were more candid about it, more open with
19 themselves. Television is an integral and dynamic part of their politics
20 and their culture. They are elected by it and to a large extent they
21 take their decisions by it. CNN's "Newsak" is the mood music of their
22 legislative and executive offices. The television sets a great deal of
23 the agenda, said former secretary of state Lawrence Eagleburger, and then
24 the president and his secretary of state have to deal with it. There is
25 just no argument.
1 "I am not suggesting that this is how things should be, only that
2 it is how they are - certainly in America, and more in Britain than our
3 profession pinstripes admit. I don't even welcome the trend. If there
4 is a besetting sin of journalists, especially those of the television
5 variety, it is an overweening sense of our own importance. It is no
6 longer enough for us to be mere reporters, we must be styled as
7 correspondents or even editors - though in my experience a corespondent
8 is no more than a reporter who has lunch. What the world needs probably
9 is not more of us but fewer and humbler. We are certainly not
10 infallible, and it will be easier for everyone when governments inform
11 themselves better. But in Bosnia, they left it to us."
12 Sir, can you confirm whether you stand by the words --
13 A. Yeah, they are rather colourful, but I stand by them.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has answered the question. You may
15 continue, Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. And do I understand correctly your words here at the end, that in
18 Bosnia they left it to us, that it was your impression that the British
19 and American decision-makers relied upon the media or were led by the
20 media as to decision-making in Bosnia?
21 A. Actually, Mr. Ivetic, I think the British government regarded me
22 as a bit of a nuisance. They -- there were, of course, other sources of
23 information. There was no British embassy in Washington -- in Sarajevo
24 that were open on a very small scale in 1994 with one diplomat and one
25 spy, I believe. But their sources of information were -- were partly
1 military. British commanders would sometimes -- senior commanders would
2 be summoned to -- to Downing Street. But they didn't like pressure on
3 them coming from people like me to do perhaps more than they were willing
4 to do to try and end this dreadful conflict.
5 Q. And if we can look at one other selection from your book at
6 page 108 of this document, which is page 11 in e-court. I apologise.
7 And when the same comes up, it is the selection at the very top of the
8 page on the left, which I'll read for you:
9 "It was not necessary to believe the conspiracy theories about
10 government forces shelling their own people for the benefit of CNN and
11 the BBC, to see that the city's defenders could succeed by failing, they
12 might launch an infantry attack which could make a great commotion and
13 not gain an inch of ground, but yet provoke a fierce retaliation by the
14 Serbs. Small arms would be answered by mortars, and machine-guns by
15 shell fire. And where the shells landed and did their indiscriminate
16 damage, the cameras would never be far away. Nor would the government
17 spokesmen demanding action. This was the way that wars were waged in the
18 age of satellite television and the UN peace enforcement: A military
19 victory could also be a political defeat. The Muslims could win the war
20 by losing it. And vice versa, the Serbs."
21 And, sir, the question I have, is do you stand by these comments
22 that I read from your book as being truthful and accurate?
23 A. Mr. Ivetic, I stand by them absolutely.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. And if we recall at paragraph --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question --
1 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- because it comes up again and again, "Do you
3 stand by these comments that I read from your book as being truthful and
5 Now I'd like to know exactly what was meant by that question and
6 what was meant by your answer. "Truthful," meaning first of all, that
7 you wrote it, I take it. I see that you are nodding yes. Second that
8 you -- where you express opinions and views, that they still are your
9 opinions and views. And "accurate" to be that you never included
10 anything in a false way. Is that -- or is there more? Because if we are
11 talking about accuracy and truthfulness, we usually are focussing on
13 Now I'm not to say that this is not based on the observation of
14 many facts, although they do not appear all here. But is it primarily
15 that you're saying these are still my views and that is how I look at it
16 on the basis of what I know. Is that the gist of your answer or is there
17 anything more, if we are talking about truth and accuracy?
18 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, this is an interesting paragraph
19 because it actually is a paragraph of judgements. And I stand by these
20 judgements. Even more now after my experiences of this and other
21 subsequent wars. I think it may be helpful for you to understand. This
22 is the first war I was in in which the means of mass destruction
23 coincided so connectively with the means of mass communication, and
24 that's partly what this paragraph is about. But it's -- yes, I
25 absolutely stand by those judgements. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Mr. Ivetic, you are aware that it's our primary task to deliver
3 the judgements on the matters and that the witnesses are supposed to
4 inform us by giving us their factual knowledge.
5 You may proceed.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. With regard to your statement, at paragraph 57 of the same --
8 MR. IVETIC: And for those following that would be page 16 of
9 both the English and B/C/S of P832, MFI'd.
10 Q. -- you talk about the impression that the -- that was garnered by
11 these actions as to the bombardment of Sarajevo always being constantly
12 unprovoked. Would, in fact, you have any information based on your
13 observations and experiences, if, in fact, the bombardment of Sarajevo
14 was often times or perhaps more often than not provoked by the
15 Bosnian Muslim side?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Where are we exactly?
17 MR. IVETIC: Paragraph 57, page 16.
18 JUDGE ORIE: 57, yes.
19 THE WITNESS: I'd say that's hard to judge, Mr. Ivetic. But
20 towards the end of the war, I mean, I've got -- some videos are vivid in
21 my mind, whether or not they are in evidence, of an attempted breakout of
22 the city by the infantry of the ABiH which actually got over the Pale
23 road for a while. And -- but these are -- this is just my cumulated
24 experience over three and a half years of the war.
25 MR. IVETIC:
1 Q. Thank you. And do you recall that -- first of all, at
2 paragraph 32 of your statement and onwards, you discuss the so-called
3 siege of Sarajevo. I'd like to spend some time briefly going through
4 this. In paragraph 32, which is at page 9 in the English and page 10 in
5 the B/C/S of your statement, you describe the situation as a war among
6 the people. And in this regard I want to ask you, did you have knowledge
7 and information available to you at the time that you were in Sarajevo
8 that, in fact, the armed forces of the BiH government were generally
9 billeted in schools and billeted among the general population?
10 A. Yes. There was certainly no -- no barracks for them there. The
11 barracks were largely taken over by UNPROFOR contingents, and therefore
12 they were dispersed among the people to an extraordinary degree. The
13 phrase "war among the people" comes from your previous witness,
14 General Smith, of course.
15 Q. And would you agree with me that as the war progressed, the
16 Bosnian Muslim or BiH forces appeared to be getting more and better
17 weaponry, including anti-tank weapons such as wire-guided anti-tank
19 A. There was evidence that some were coming in through Tuzla, but it
20 was very difficult for them to bring heavy weapons into Sarajevo. But
21 they were becoming better armed and this -- these are the points I put to
22 my friends in Pale. They didn't care.
23 Q. In the information report that the Prosecution gave to us a few
24 days ago, it was stated that you never gained access to or used any
25 tunnel in Sarajevo. Can you confirm that, sir?
1 A. That is true.
2 Q. I want to explore with you another aspect and that would be your
3 knowledge of a tunnel. Did you have knowledge of a tunnel at the
4 Butmir airport being used by the Bosnian Muslims to reinforce and rearm?
5 A. Towards the end of the war I did. We were, for obvious reasons
6 of field access, we had no access to it. Our own way into Sarajevo was
7 done -- the logging track into Mount Igman. So the existence of this
8 tunnel -- in television you tend to report things you know for sure and
9 can see and show. And we couldn't get at the tunnel.
10 Q. What I want to explore with you, again, is something that was
11 mentioned in the Perisic case.
12 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to call up 1D653. And page 13 of the same
13 in e-court which ought to correlate to transcript page 3177 of the
14 Perisic proceedings.
15 Q. And I would like to focus on lines 3 through 12 of the same. And
16 if you bear with me, sir, I will first read the selection then have some
17 questions for you:
18 "Q. All right. Was there an easy means of entry into and exit
19 from the city for the civilians in ABiH-held territory?
20 "A. There was no easy means at all. There was in the latter
21 half of the war a tunnel constructed underneath the airport runway which
22 provided a means of reinforcement and supplies to come into the city.
23 But for any -- anyone who wanted to leave, unless they had the right
24 permissions and the right influence, I mean, they more or less, they had
25 to endure the whole siege. We were in a different state because we had
1 United Nations passes and we were able with difficulty to come through
2 Bosnian Serb roadblocks in Ilidza and elsewhere."
3 First off, sir, do you stand by this testimony of yours in the
4 Perisic case as being truthful and accurate and would you so testify
5 today the same under the solemn declaration you have taken?
6 A. Yes, I would. I would also add that of course from August 1994
7 we could no longer negotiate the Bosnian Serb roadblocks.
8 Q. Thank you. And when you say that people who wanted to leave
9 needed to have the right permissions, am I to take it that this included
10 needing to know the right ABiH personnel who were controlling the ingress
11 and egress through this tunnel?
12 A. Yeah. The Bosnian authorities controlled the tunnel and
13 absolutely who used it.
14 Q. Did you happen to have knowledge of any allegations of the UN or
15 UNPROFOR personnel being engaged in any black market or other activities
16 in relation to this tunnel?
17 A. No, not in relation to the -- to the tunnel. There were stories
18 told about a black market -- marketeering by the Ukrainian contingent of
20 Q. Since you bring it up, I'd like to go to that, and I'd like to
21 call up 1D648 again. And turn to page 26 of the same in e-court, which
22 will be page 175 of your original version of "In Harm's Way." And here
23 you are talking about an incident involving General Rose. And this would
24 be the second page, that is the right-hand side of the screen. And it
25 will be the approximately fifth or sixth line from the top of the page.
1 And I will read for you, sir, and have some questions --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, try to do this at such a speed --
3 MR. IVETIC: I will.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- so that the interpreters are able to follow.
5 MR. IVETIC: I will, Your Honours:
6 Q. "His record was that of a tough, no-nonsense soldier who champed
7 at bits and suffered no fools near him. His extra qualification for the
8 UN's Bosnia command was not his knowledge of peacekeeping but his
9 knowledge of French. Having studied for a year at the Sorbonne, he was
10 the only senior British officer with fluent enough French to brief and be
11 briefed in it.
12 "In Sarajevo that mattered, as the encircled city was, in UN
13 terms, a French fiefdom. It had not been intended that way, but the
14 French had replaced the Canadians in July 1992 as part of a tri-national
15 brigade so daft in its conception that only the United Nations ivory
16 tower, its thirty-eighth floor, could have dreamed it up. When the
17 then-UN commander, General Lewis MacKenzie, first told me about it, even
18 he had difficulty believing it. It was known as the 'confessional
19 deployment.' The French were included because they were Roman Catholics,
20 the Egyptians because they were Muslims, and the Ukrainians because they
21 were Orthodox. All it lacked was Copts. The plan was that all the
22 city's constituent peoples would feel in some way spiritually befriended.
23 Of course, it didn't work. And the principal contribution of the
24 Egyptian and Ukrainian battalions was to ease the hardships of those
25 citizens with German marks by selling their food and fuel on the black
1 market. Senior officers tried in vein to express this traffic. When the
2 small Ukrainian contingent in the enclave of Zepa radioed that they had
3 supplies enough only for one more day, their battalion commander was
4 unsympathetic: 'Then tell them that they'll have to buy it back.'"
5 First of all, sir, this selection that I've read for you, I take
6 it that it's based upon information that you had available and perhaps
7 conversations that you had with members of UNPROFOR on the topic. Could
8 you enlighten us on that?
9 A. Yes, I could. The language is rather colourful, but the language
10 used to me by some of my friends in UNPROFOR was also colourful. They --
11 the -- I wasn't going to make much of it because in news reports you
12 don't -- it's a waste of time to criticize UN contingents. But a lot of
13 the British staff officers I knew in UNPROFOR were appalled at what they
14 were seeing. And I was talking to these people every day. They were
16 Q. And can I take it, sir, that the activities that they were
17 appalled by, this black-marketeering was ongoing for a long, extended
18 period, let's say.
19 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, my friend has suggest what
20 they were appalled by and the witness has not actually testified to that
21 as of yet.
22 MR. IVETIC: That's fair enough. I can ask the witness,
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. When I say please do so, I
25 immediately add to that, please do it in such a way that the relevance
1 becoming clear to the Chamber immediately.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. When you say that the British members of the UNPROFOR that you
5 had contact with were appalled by what they were seeing, was that in
6 reference to the back-marketeering on the part of the other contingents?
7 Right here we are talking about the Ukrainian contingent and the Egyptian
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And was it your understanding that this had been ongoing for some
12 A. I honestly can't place a time-frame on it, but it was
13 sufficiently conspicuous to -- to offend a lot of professional British
15 Q. And was it your experience that such activities led to -- led to
16 increased controls of humanitarian aid convoys that were going into
17 either Sarajevo where the Egyptian contingent was or Zepa where the
18 Ukrainian contingent was? Did you have that kind of knowledge?
19 A. I don't think I can comment on that at this distance, sir.
20 Q. Okay. And is it correct, sir, that at the time that General Rose
21 assumed the command of the UNPROFOR element in Bosnia, that one of his
22 predecessors, General Briquemont, had revealed that some of the national
23 contingents under UNPROFOR had been refusing to take his orders?
24 A. I was not actually in Sarajevo at that time, I was in
25 Central Bosnia. So I'm not sufficiently aware of the circumstances of
1 General Briquemont's departure.
2 Q. Do you recall, sir, that there was a time-period when there were
3 some very dire reports coming out of Gorazde that prompted General Rose
4 to undertake and prepare a mission to relieve the pressure on Gorazde?
5 A. Yes, I do remember his -- he took no press with him but there was
6 a camera which we used some of the images.
7 Q. Could you detail for us as briefly as possible if, in fact, the
8 dire situations that had been reported by the media that were based
9 primarily I think by reports from purported radio ham operators in
10 Gorazde, whether in fact those dire conditions were verified or if the
11 condition was something different when people actually got into the
13 A. It was unverifiable. We did a report once based on one of these
14 voices from Gorazde. The closest I was able to get was the high ground
15 with -- over -- overlooking Gorazde. This is when we were still allowed
16 into Bosnian Serbian territory. But the gravity or otherwise of the
17 situation, it was impossible to verify.
18 Q. And do you recall, sir, that initially General Rose's mission to
19 Gorazde suffered a setback in that the French and the British national
20 authorities had prevented their UNPROFOR contingent troops from following
21 General Rose's orders?
22 A. I do remember that from time to time the national governments
23 played what was called the -- the yellow or the red card. On this
24 occasion, I wasn't there. I don't know.
25 Q. I'd like to ask you about something else in your book, which we
1 still have in front of us. If we could turn to page 29 in actual book --
2 in the e-court, I apologise. Which is page 181 of the actual book. And
3 the section I want to focus on is the second page which is on the
4 right-hand side.
5 And if you'll bear with me, sir, I would like to present this to
6 you and ask you some questions about it, and then we are near the end of
7 my examination:
8 "His second area of conflict was with NATO, which was by then
9 deployed in its new role as the UN's Bosnian enforcement agency. The
10 Serbs at this time had their tanks already in the outskirts of Gorazde,
11 and the city centre under small-arms fire. They were checked and halted
12 by NATO air-strikes on 10th and 11th April - the first time that the
13 alliance had used such force in its history. The results were mixed.
14 The NATO ground attack aircraft, flying at low level in foul weather,
15 destroyed an elderly tank, some trucks, and a communications centre, at a
16 cost of one British Sea Harrier shot down. In the days that followed
17 they were looking for more targets, while General Rose was urging
18 restraint. He spent an entire day on the telephone to Brussels trying to
19 persuade NATO commanders that the Serbs had halted their advance, it was
20 time to give negotiations a chance, and UNPROFOR was in any case a
21 peacekeeping not a war-fighting force. Also, he was responsible for the
22 safety of his troops, who were endangered by overreaction. In the words
23 of Colonel Simon Shadbolt, General Rose's military assistant, whom some
24 saw as the brain's of the partnership: 'A pre-emptive punitive strike
25 against the Serbs might make people happy over their cornflakes in the
1 morning, but it is not going to help peacekeeping.' Or as the
2 General himself put it, 'Patience, persistens, and pressure is how you
3 conduct a peacekeeping mission. Bombing is a last resort because you
4 then cross the Mogadishu Line.' (M words were much invoked by both sides
5 in the debate on General Rose's stewardship. His defenders praised him
6 for avoiding the errors of Mogadishu. His critics attacked him for
7 repeating the errors of Munich). NATO commanders steeped in the
8 doctrines of overwhelming force, were unimpressed by General Rose's case
9 for restraint - and especially the idea of limited response or
10 'proportionality' in the selection of targets for air-strikes.
11 'Proportionality' explained one of them, 'I'll give you proportionality.
12 Han Pijesak (headquarters of the Bosnian Serb army) and Pale ammunition
13 dump and Lukavica barracks. That's proportionality).'"
14 First of all, sir, do you stand by these words from your book as
15 being accurate, and do you stand by them today as -- would you repeat the
16 same under the solemn declaration?
17 A. Yes, sir. I think I was being rather well briefed at the time in
19 Q. Would you identify for us -- I take it that most of us this is
20 garnered from your communications with UNPROFOR personnel, perhaps even
21 with General Rose and Colonel Shadbolt, but your description of the NATO
22 commanders and the one who gave these words, did that also come from
23 those contacts, or if not, could you tell us where that came from?
24 A. At 18 years distance, I'm sorry, I can't remember where that
25 phrase came from, but it certainly came from somebody.
1 Q. Okay. And was it your understanding based upon the information
2 and the conversations that you had with people that General Rose was
3 having a conflict with NATO because NATO envisioned using much more force
4 against the Serbs than actually engaging in combat or warfare against the
6 A. Yes, sir. That's accurate.
7 Q. And when you say that his critics accused him of making the same
8 mistakes as in Munich, are we talking about critics within NATO or within
9 the public? Could you be more specific about that?
10 A. No, I can't be. All I can say is that there were misgivings
11 among NATO officers whether this was going to work. And in the daily
12 press conferences of UNPROFOR, the UN forces was repeatedly taken to task
13 by journalists like Kurt Schork of Reuters for an inadequate response.
14 Q. Thank you. One last item I'd like to look at is at page 30 in
15 e-court of this document which will correlate to page 183 of your book.
16 And it again relates to the Gorazde situation which we've already
17 summarised in some detail. So I would just highlight one additional
18 aspect. And that will be the last paragraph on the right-hand side of
19 the page:
20 "The cries for help from Gorazde were supplemented in Sarajevo by
21 daily statements from the Bosnian prime minister, Haris Silajdzic, who
22 was an easy man to like and a hard one to keep off the screen. By his
23 mastery of the sound bite he probably did more single-handedly to affect
24 the course of the war than anyone else except General Ratko Mladic on the
25 Serb side: Mladic did it with guns and Silajdzic with words. The
1 combination of his eloquence and our own exclusion from Serb-held
2 territory meant that the Bosnian government's view of events prevailed."
3 Now, in regards to this, sir, this is a continuation of your
4 discussion as to Gorazde, am I correct, sir, that the Bosnian government
5 view as to Gorazde as promulgated by Prime Minister Haris Silajdzic was
6 the one that turned out to be a false and misrepresenting view once
7 people got into the ground and saw what had happened in Gorazde?
8 A. I'm not sure I would use the -- the words "false" and
9 "misrepresenting" --
10 Q. Exaggerated a bit, perhaps?
11 A. I think "overstated" would be fair, I guess.
12 Q. Sir, I thank you for answering my questions.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
14 witness at this time.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic. Ms. Bolton, we have some
16 25 minutes left, 25 minutes to half an hour. We will take a break of
17 one minute for me to be able to leave the courtroom at quarter past 2.00.
18 Meanwhile you may start your re-examination.
19 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:
21 Q. Just with respect to that last issue of Gorazde, did I understand
22 you to testify earlier that you never actually made it into Gorazde
24 A. The closest I got was a Serb position overlooking the town.
25 Q. And the previous passage you were asked about -- about
1 General Rose, apparently, being on the phone and making phone calls in
2 April 1994, was that something you personally observed?
3 A. It -- well, no, I wouldn't -- I didn't spend my time inside his
4 headquarters, but I knew and trusted enough people there that if they
5 told me it was going on, it was going on.
6 Q. So that wasn't General Rose, I take it, who told you that?
7 A. It might have been. But again at this distance I don't know. He
8 was certainly much more forthcoming with us than General Smith.
9 Q. Okay. Now you were asked some questions about Arkan, and I'd
10 just like to return to that if I may have a moment.
11 MS. BOLTON: I'd like to have 65 ter 10652 displayed, please.
12 Q. You'll see, sir, from the title page of this document that it's
13 an UNPROFOR BH command forward HQ Sarajevo office civil affairs document.
14 It's a weekly political assessment for a period covering 28th August to,
15 I think, 3rd of September, 1994.
16 MS. BOLTON: And if we could go to page 4 of this document,
17 please. We're looking for paragraph 8. And in the B/C/S version,
18 please, if we could go to -- forward two pages. Sorry, one more, please.
19 Q. Now you'll see at paragraph 8 there is a reference to the
21 "Following continued mass expulsions of non-Serbs from the
22 Bijeljina and Banja Luka regions this week, including 750 last night from
23 Bijeljina, and as throughout the month of August, the Security Council
24 issued a presidential statement demanding that the practice be stopped
25 and that access to the area be given to international organisations.
1 Those being expelled are normally elderly people, women and children who
2 are forced to pay 200 Deutschmarks to cross the confrontation lines.
3 According to reports from people who have been expelled, the man
4 generally believed to be responsible for the atrocities in the Bijeljina
5 area is Vojkan Djurkovic, president of the 'regional exchange
6 commission,' and of Bijeljina chapter of Arkan's
7 'Party People's Choice.'"
8 Can I ask you, sir, if you are familiar with Mr. Djurkovic?
9 A. No, I -- I worked in Bijeljina hardly at all, just passing
10 through it in the early stages of the war. Of course I knew Arkan well
11 but not him.
12 MS. BOLTON: And could I ask Your Honours, first, that this
13 document -- sorry, could I ask, please, to have video-clip 22565E played.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, are other people hearing anything?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You're not switched on your microphone, Ms. Bolton.
18 So therefore the French interpreters --
19 MS. BOLTON: My apologies to the interpreters. We're going to
20 try again now, please.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 "Announcer: ... non-Serb civilians being expelled from Serb-held
23 territory in the north-east of the country. Yesterday, around 800
24 Muslims from the town of Bijeljina were driven across the front line to
25 government-held territory near Tuzla. If the so-called ethnic cleansing
1 continues, no Muslims or Croats will be left in the town by the end of
2 the week.
3 "Martin Bell: They were rounded up near their homes in Bijeljina
4 by Serbian militia late in the day. Robbed of their money and valuables,
5 taken in buses and trucks, and dumped in the rain near the front line. A
6 group of 150 men of military age who started with them were taken away,
7 destination unknown. The hundreds who came across, women, elderly, and
8 the infirm, had to make it on their own through several miles across the
9 front line. A few were able to come in horse-drawn carts. It was as
10 brutal an expulsion as any seen in more than two years of war.
11 "Woman Refugee: The women are crying, the children are crying,
12 the mothers are crying. All those poor people around you, you can see.
13 What we're carrying? This is what we're carrying. Only one bag. This
14 is all.
15 "Martin Bell: The UN and its agencies with no significant
16 presence in the Serb-held territory are unable to prevent the expulsion.
17 They and International Red Cross are doing what they can to help the
18 victims this side of the line.
19 "Antonella Notari: We set up a first aid post at the end of the
20 confrontation line. We have a vehicle getting the people from the first
21 line of the confrontation line to the first aid post. We have a doctor
22 there who is treating them and we are helping them to shuttle the people
23 down to Babina Luka.
24 "Martin Bell: 2.000 Muslims are known to be living still in the
25 area around Bijeljina. The Serbian war lord responsible for this
1 expulsion has threatened that they will all be out by Thursday. That,
2 incidentally, is the day of the Pope's proposed visit to Bosnia.
3 "Martin Bell, BBC News, Sarajevo."
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, the French interpreters had difficulties
5 in hearing the sound and therefore were unable to -- and the same is true
6 for the B/C/S. I think there was no B/C/S translation.
7 MS. BOLTON: There is, I can indicate, a transcript both -- of
8 the B/C/S available and there is a transcript of the English available.
9 I know that doesn't assist the French very much.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Have you provided it to the booth?
11 MS. BOLTON: Yes, we have, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we still have a bit of a problem.
13 Yes. And I think Mr. Mladic also did not receive any
15 Is that correct, Mr. Mladic?
16 THE ACCUSED: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore we can't have the witness be
18 examined on -- we can't have the witness examined if Mr. Mladic was
19 unable to follow what was said in B/C/S.
20 MS. BOLTON: Could we try playing it again, Your Honour, and we
21 could provide Mr. Mladic with a copy of the written transcript to see if
22 that assists him in following along?
23 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that Mr. Mladic is agreeing to such a
24 solution. I take that from his body language, which was thumbs up and
25 applause. And nodding as well.
1 If I turn up the -- the English channel, I am -- it reaches a
2 volume which is audible for me. Could we check whether there is any
3 possibility that we have both English and B/C/S in such a way that it can
4 be followed? I suggest that we play it again. And one thing is for
5 certain, more attention will have to be paid in the coming days and weeks
6 to the way we proceed with videos.
7 Well, having the volume button now all at a maximum, could we
8 replay the video.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 "Announcer: Relief workers in Bosnia say there has been a marked
11 increase in the number of non-Serb civilians being expelled from
12 Serb-held territory in the north-east of the country. They say around
13 800 Muslims in the town of Bijeljina were driven across the front line to
14 government held territory near Tuzla. If so-called ethnic cleansing
15 continues, no Muslims or Croats will be left in the town by the end of
16 the week.
17 "Martin Bell: They were rounded up near their homes in Bijeljina
18 by Serbian militia late in the day. Robbed of their money and valuables,
19 taken in buses and trucks and dumped in the rain near the front line. A
20 group of 150 men of military age who started with them were taken away,
21 destination unknown. The hundreds we came across, women, elderly, and
22 the infirm had to make it on their own through several miles across the
23 front line. A few were able to come in horse drawn carts. It was as
24 brutal an expulsion as any we've seen in more than two years of war.
25 "Woman Refugee: The women are crying, the children are crying,
1 the mothers are crying. All those poor people around you, you can see.
2 What we're carrying? This is what we're carrying. Only one bag. This
3 is all.
4 "Martin Bell: The UN and its agencies with no significant
5 presence in the Serb-held territory are unable to prevent the expulsion.
6 They and the International Red Cross are doing what they can to help the
7 victims this side of the line.
8 "Antonella Notari: We set up a first-aid post against the
9 confrontation line. We have vehicles getting the people from the first
10 line of confrontation lines to the first-aid post. We have a doctor
11 there who is treating them and we're helping them to shuttle the people
12 down to Babina Luka.
13 "Martin Bell: 2.000 Muslims are known to be living still in the
14 area around Bijeljina. The Serbian war lord responsible for this
15 expulsion has threatened that they will all be out by Thursday. That,
16 incidentally, is the day of the Pope's proposed visit to Bosnia.
17 "Martin Bell, BBC News, Sarajevo."
18 JUDGE ORIE: The French translation is not complete but I think
19 we can work on the basis of the written version of what we heard in
20 English and of most of the French, most of the French translation having
21 been produced.
22 MS. BOLTON: Thank you very much.
23 Q. Earlier today, sir, you mentioned that you thought there had been
24 an expulsion from the Bijeljina area in 1994 in addition to the one in
25 1992. Is this the incident that you are referring to earlier in your
2 A. Yes. And there were -- there were many similar expulsions, most
3 of them went from Prijedor down to Turbe which is near Travnik in
4 Central Bosnia.
5 Q. You used the phrase "field security" several times today. Could
6 you tell us what you are referring to when you are talking about field
8 A. I am referring to measures that armies put in place so that their
9 operations are not compromised, their plans are not known, and
10 information does not get into the public domain through the press or in
11 any other way which may give -- give away positions or operations or
12 plans to the other side.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, the Chamber will take a break of
14 anything between half and a whole minute.
15 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
16 --- Break taken at 2.15 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 2.16 p.m.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the record show that with Judge Orie gone, the
19 Chamber now is sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis.
20 Madam Bolton, you may continue.
21 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. In the context of questioning today on "In Harms Way," you were
23 read a portion of a paragraph where -- a paragraph, I think it was at
24 page 108, which included a quote about when events occurring in Sarajevo
25 "the cameras would never be far away." Could you just comment on why
1 that was the case?
2 A. There were many cameras in a fairly small area. I've defined it
3 in previous testimonies about a mile and half from between the airport
4 and the Turkish fort. And they would be roaming around and they would be
5 on the spot very quickly when something happened.
6 Q. I was a little confused on your answers about the SS Handzar
7 movement. At page 35 of the transcript, you were asked a question about
8 your knowledge of the Ustasha movement and the SS Handzar movement, and
9 in answer to that question you stated:
10 "It was the Ustasha movement that I was familiar with. And
11 almost from the start of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you would find
12 Croats driving around with pictures of the Ustasha leader, Ante Pavlovic
13 on the back of their car."
14 Then at page 37 of the transcript Mr. Ivetic put to you the
15 following question:
16 "And now I want to ask you: In your discussions with the members
17 of the Bosnian Serb leadership and in your discussions with the common
18 Bosnian Serb soldier throughout the time of your stay in the region to
19 report on the conflict going on there, did these individuals often talk
20 to you or refer to a fear of a resurge --" I think it's supposed to be
21 resurgence, "of the Ustasha and Handzar movements from World War II?"
22 And you responded:
23 "Yes, Mr. Ivetic," and then you go on.
24 And I'm trying to understand whether you did or didn't have
25 references made to the SS Handzar movement.
1 A. I talk about only what I know about. I knew about the Ustashas
2 so that's what I was talking about.
3 MS. BOLTON: Court's indulgence, Your Honour.
4 Q. You were played a portion of a video, 1D00631, and I'd like to go
5 to the end of the portion you were played. I think Ms. Stewart has done
7 MS. BOLTON: And we're now at -- sorry, I didn't make note of the
8 end. So we're just going to have to play. It starts at 32:52 and I
9 believe the report goes until 35:19.
10 I should indicate, Your Honours, that this is just something
11 that's come up in cross-examination, so it's not something we anticipated
12 and we haven't got a transcript available in written form at this point
13 but we will have one prepared. Hopefully the sound is better on this
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 "There has been a gun battle going on around this hotel in the
18 parkland all morning. You can probably hear it in the background. It
19 hasn't stopped since [indiscernible]. It's quite intense. We have now
20 been told or rather the European Community Monitors here have been warned
21 that this place has been targeted for incoming mortar fire sometime
22 around now. So it's not a very comfortable situation.
23 "I can assure you from personal experience that there is no
24 [indiscernible]. That is a hard one to say. The -- I'm sorry, it's a
25 little bit disturbing some of this noise. The Muslims are in very
1 difficult position geographically in that the Serbs have the high ground
2 and the Serbs and army have them surrounded. On the other hand, the
3 Muslims fought back strongly yesterday, and as far as I can tell what's
4 going on here, it's a fairly -- it's a fairly even match. I think its
5 fairly -- I think it's for certain now the Serbs are going to be bringing
6 up some reserves which they -- which they need. They probably might have
7 the upper-hand for longer. I'm sure [indiscernible] the Muslims are
8 giving them a hard time --"
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt. Mr. Mladic can't hear.
10 MS. BOLTON: This is -- we're still on the portion which was
11 played earlier in Court by the Defence, Your Honour. So I wonder if the
12 issue -- if we could continue until we get to the new part and see if we
13 can hear the new part, because this has already been MFI'd by the
14 Defence, this portion.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we then start at the new part? It's not
16 necessary to replay all the parts we have seen already.
17 MS. BOLTON: Yes, Your Honour. I just have to find where that
18 part ends. One moment, please.
19 We're going to start then, Your Honours, thank you, from 35 --
20 no, it's ... it's -- I think we stopped at 35:19 and we're now going to
21 continue from 35:19. Thank you.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 "Thirty seconds before the end of the interview when the
24 cameraman ducked and Martin said, 'Excuse me,' a bullet went about six
25 feet behind him and hit the wall of the hotel. You can just see a white
1 flash on the right of screen. Martin still has the bullet."
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' note: We do not interpret if we
3 do not have the transcript.
4 MS. BOLTON: No, and I'm sorry, we're actually -- the report
5 perviously stopped at 30 -- Your Honours, I'll just deal with this by way
6 of the bar table. It's too complicated without the transcript working.
7 My apologies.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers]
9 MS. BOLTON: My apologies.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, do so.
11 Q. Lastly, sir, you had indicated -- you were read a portion of your
12 book dealing in black marketing in food and fuel and the involvement of
13 Ukrainian Bat. First of all, are you aware of any relationship between
14 the VRS and Ukrainian Bat concerning allegations of black-marketeering?
15 A. I think the passages in the book made reference to
16 black-marketeering in Zepa, and when a UN aid convoy went into Zepa it
17 had a Ukrainian escort. This was in January of 1993.
18 Q. And I'm sorry, my question was whether you were aware of the VRS
19 being involved in terms of facilitating or benefitting from
21 A. At this distance, I'm sorry. I just can't remember that.
22 MS. BOLTON: Those are all of my questions, Your Honour. I'm
23 wondering if we could have -- either admit the document that I used with
24 the witness through the bar table or through the witness. That was
25 10562 -- no, 10652. And I'll also be seeking admission of the -- of the
1 previous video that I played of events in Bijeljina.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was 10652, by the way?
3 MS. BOLTON: That was the UNPROFOR document, the civil affairs
4 report about the events in Bijeljina in 1994 and the reports that were
5 being received.
6 MR. IVETIC: My --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes --
8 MR. IVETIC: Sorry, Your Honour. My recollection was that the
9 witness said he did not know the individual mentioned in the report. I
10 do not object to it being tendered by the bar table, but I don't think
11 that the witness verified any of the information in the report.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we MFI it then?
14 MR. IVETIC: That will be fine, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
16 Madam Registrar, 10652 is admitted into evidence. May it please
17 be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: 10652 receives number P840, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And marked for
21 MS. BOLTON: And the 65 ter number for the video that was shown
22 to the witness, Your Honour, was 22565E, and this is the video where he
23 confirmed it was his report from events in Bijeljina in 1994.
24 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May that be given a number,
1 please, Madam Registrar. It's admitted into evidence.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22565E receives number P841, Your
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, what was the exhibit number for
5 10652? Madam Registrar?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number? Was it the video 22565E.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no.
8 THE REGISTRAR: No.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: 10652, the one before that.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 10652, P840, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Because I see it's P860 on the transcript
12 here, so you must correct that, Mr. Stenographer. Okay. Thank you so
14 Is that all, Madam Bolton?
15 MS. BOLTON: That is it in terms of my re-examination, Your
16 Honour. We have issues, obviously, with respect to the non-associated
17 exhibits and the exhibits which were discussed in the witness comments
18 chart and also the associated exhibits, but those I think could be
19 addressed in the absence of the witness unless there is any further
20 questioning for him.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we can do that not necessarily today.
22 MS. BOLTON: Correct. I mean --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've gone far beyond our time.
24 MS. BOLTON: Yes. I'm wondering if you want us to come back and
25 deal with that on Monday orally or how you'd like to deal with that?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I think you had better do it on a bar table
3 MS. BOLTON: With respect to the associated exhibits, Your
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, not the associated exhibits. Whatever the
6 clip that you said was complicated and you would deal with, that you can
7 do at the bar table.
8 MS. BOLTON: No, I meant the remaining --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The remaining things, we can deal with them orally
10 on [overlapping speakers].
11 MS. BOLTON: Okay. We'll deal with those on Monday orally then?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
13 MS. BOLTON: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Provided we do finish with the video conference
16 MS. BOLTON: Or Tuesday.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 Mr. Bell, that brings us to the conclusion of your testimony.
19 The Chamber takes this time to thank you very much for coming to the
20 Tribunal and to testify in this matter and answer all the questions put
21 to you by both Prosecution and Defence as well as the Chamber. We wish
22 you to travel well back home. You may now stand-down.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Anything to wind up for the day for the
3 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: From the Defence.
5 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then we stand adjourned until Monday -- I beg your
7 pardon, before we do that there is one little housekeeping matter here.
8 May the Chamber please move into private session.
9 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Then we stand adjourned to Monday, the 4th of February at 9.30,
13 in courtroom III. Court adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33, p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day
16 of February, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.