Page 8975
1 Wednesday, 20 February 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 For the witness to enter the courtroom, we'll first move into
11 closed session, since there are no preliminaries, as far as the Chamber
12 understands.
13 [Closed session]
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 8976
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 Good morning, Witness RM013. I would like to remind you that
9 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
10 beginning of your testimony yesterday.
11 You'll now be re-examined by Ms. MacGregor.
12 WITNESS: RM013 [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.
15 Re-examination by Ms. MacGregor:
16 Q. Good morning, Witness.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. At page 8928 and 8929 of the transcript, you testified that there
19 were Serb passengers on the bus with you when you were taken from
20 Montenegro back to Foca. Were those Serbs also taken to KP Dom?
21 A. Yes, they, too, were taken to KP Dom.
22 Q. And were they held at KP Dom?
23 A. I did see them a couple of days, and then I noticed that they
24 disappeared.
25 Q. Do you know where at KP Dom they were held?
Page 8977
1 A. They were held on the other side of the -- the room where I was,
2 across the hall, room 20. And I believe that their room was room 16, if
3 I'm not mistaken.
4 Q. And when you say "they disappeared," what do you mean by that?
5 A. Well, I meant that they were taken to the front line.
6 Q. Also at page 8928 of the transcript, you testified that you were
7 assisted by a Serb neighbour when you fled from Foca to Montenegro in
8 April 1992. Without identifying that neighbour, did the neighbour
9 actually leave Foca with you?
10 A. Yes. He went with me all the way from Foca to Montenegro.
11 Q. Why did he go with you?
12 A. Well, we were on very good terms, good neighbours. He offered to
13 go with me himself. He could not bear to allow that I -- the thought of
14 me perhaps being mistreated, me or my wife or children.
15 Q. Did you go through the check-points with your neighbour?
16 A. Yes, we did.
17 Q. Were there any problems going through check-points?
18 A. Well, when we went through the check-points, they searched us,
19 and they used all sorts of vial language talking to -- addressing my Serb
20 neighbour, and the -- the thing was, you know, how was it that he was
21 going to save Balijas.
22 Q. And just so it's clear for the record, when you say "Balijas,"
23 what do you mean?
24 A. Well, that is a pejorative term that Serbs use for Muslims.
25 Q. Were you able to identify who was manning the check-points? I
Page 8978
1 don't mean specifically the identities. I mean what type of check-points
2 were they.
3 A. These were military check-points, manned by military personnel.
4 They were in camouflage uniforms.
5 Q. Yesterday in response to questions by the Defence, at page 8920
6 of the transcript, you testified about the Red Cross visit to KP Dom.
7 You said, and I'm going to quote from the transcript. For the record,
8 this is starting at 8920.4:
9 "Q. Did you have information as to whether Red Cross, the
10 Red Cross representatives spoke to any of the inmates of the KP Dom?
11 "A. Yes. They spoke to Mr. Rasovic, who was the head of guard.
12 They kept insisting that other people be registered as well. They had
13 knowledge of that group that was being hidden because my brother was in
14 the camp as well and he was registered. And he told the Red Cross that
15 there was myself and others who were being kept hidden there."
16 In this statement, who told the Red Cross that you and others
17 were hidden there?
18 A. Well, during the registration with the Red Cross at the time when
19 I was registered, they indicated that they knew that we had been kept
20 hidden away. And I believe I've already said that I -- that my brother
21 had managed to inform them, and he kept telling them that there was a
22 group of people that were being held, hidden, and I was one of them.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, the witness gave evidence related
24 to the attack on Foca in April 1992 at page 8916 of the transcript. In
25 reliance upon adjudicated facts 538, and 541 through 548, the Prosecution
Page 8979
1 will not be questioning the witness as to that evidence.
2 For the final question that I have for this witness, we need to
3 be in private session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
5 [Private session]
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 8980
1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto has one question for you.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Witness.
9 This morning, Ms. MacGregor asked you a question at page 4 of the
10 this morning's transcript, line 4, as to the identity of the people who
11 were manning the check-points. Your answer was, at page 4, line 4:
12 "These were military check-points, manned by military personnel.
13 They were in camouflage uniforms."
14 My question to you is: Do you know which army they belonged to.
15 A. They belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
17 JUDGE ORIE: I also have one question for you.
18 You said that the people who were transported back with you, that
19 you saw them for a couple of days in KP Dom, and they then disappeared.
20 Ms. MacGregor then asked you, What do you mean by disappeared?
21 And you said, Well, they were taken out and brought to the front.
22 Now, how do you know that they were taken to the front? I can
23 understand that you see them to be taken out and you didn't see them any
24 further. But how did you know that they were taken to the front?
25 A. Well, there were instances where the guards told us themselves.
Page 8981
1 Those who wanted to have anything to do us, they told us. Because these
2 people never returned. They did not come back to KP Dom.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And the guards told specifically about that group,
4 that they were taken -- they had been taken to the front, or that they
5 were taken to the front?
6 A. Other than that group, there were other detained Serbs, in other
7 rooms, who had probably refused to respond to the call-up and refused to
8 go to the front line, so they had difficulties, and they were held in
9 other -- kept in other rooms.
10 All the Serbs, both from the group that I mentioned and the Serbs
11 that were detained there, they just weren't there anymore. They
12 disappeared after five or six days after we had come back.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that you didn't see them any further.
14 But did they specifically always tell you where they had been taken?
15 A. Well, later on, from what I learned from the guards, one of the
16 men who had been brought there, he was from Capljina, I was told that he
17 had been killed. And then I put two on two together, that all of these
18 men had been taken to the front line.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Any further questions, Mr. Lukic?
21 MR. LUKIC: Just a few short one, Your Honour.
22 Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. RM013, I will just briefly refer you to one
24 of your answers that these -- that there were men in camouflage uniforms
25 manning check-points and that you said that they were members of the
Page 8982
1 Army of Republika Srpska. What period of time are we talking about?
2 April 1992?
3 A. Yes. The 12th of April.
4 Q. But yesterday we agreed that the Army of Republika Srpska was
5 established on the 12th of May, 1992. In other words, a month after the
6 date when you went through the check-points. Would you agree with me
7 that these people most certainly could not have been members of the
8 Army of Republika Srpska?
9 A. Well, I couldn't agree with you because the
10 Yugoslav People's Army was no longer there. The Yugoslav People's Army,
11 its function ceased when the war broke out, as far as I'm concerned.
12 Q. Do you know that the Yugoslav People's Army withdrew from Bosnia
13 on the 19th of May, 1992?
14 A. Well, I don't know the exact date. I do know that it withdrew,
15 but I don't know specifically when.
16 Q. You say that these people at the check-points were in camouflage
17 uniforms. Could you, as you sit here, describe those camouflage uniforms
18 worn by soldiers in April 1992.
19 A. Well, these were multi-patterned uniforms. That's what
20 camouflage uniforms are to me. I don't know how to describe it.
21 Q. Do you know what the predominant colour was?
22 A. Well, there was green and yellow and black.
23 Q. Did you see any insignia worn by these men?
24 A. Well, that I knew nothing about.
25 Q. You say that the Serbs who were in prison, either the group that
Page 8983
1 had been brought there with you or that was already there, that they were
2 all removed from KP Dom.
3 Are you saying that while you were at KP Dom throughout the rest
4 of the period, there were no Serbs detained there?
5 A. Well, yes, they kept bringing in those who committed some kind of
6 infraction or offence.
7 Q. Thank you. That was all I had. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
9 Witness RM013, this concludes your testimony.
10 As far as admission of documents are concerned, we can deal with
11 that in the absence of the witness.
12 We'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for
13 having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and
14 by the Bench, and I'd like to wish you a save return home again.
15 For you to allow to leave the courtroom, we'll turn into closed
16 session for a second.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
18 [Closed session]
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 [Open session]
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, your microphone.
Page 8984
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll first deal with documents still to be
4 admitted.
5 If you would introduce them, Ms. MacGregor, briefly telling us
6 also what it is. I think we start with P982, statement, and P983,
7 another statement, and corrections to the statement, P984.
8 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, Your Honours.
9 You've just identified the three statements that the Prosecution
10 submits as the witness's 92 ter statement and asked to be moved into
11 evidence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic, anything in addition to
13 the [Overlapping speakers] objections?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] We just maintain our objection
15 to P984.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And that was for the disclosure?
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Late disclosure.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is there -- could you tell us already at this
21 moment is there anything you consider that needs further attention or
22 would you rather consider it? Because the Chamber -- if the late
23 disclosure causes seriously problems to the Defence, of course, the
24 Chamber will seriously look at that once it has been brought to our
25 attention in more specific terms.
Page 8985
1 MR. LUKIC: Because of the man power the Defence has, everything
2 late disclosure to us is really a huge burden.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: P982, P983, and P984 are admitted into evidence,
6 under seal.
7 Mr. Lukic, if at any later point in time the further exploration
8 of what was lately disclosed to you which was of limited content, it
9 would trigger any need to -- whatever remedy, the Chamber would like to
10 hear from you.
11 Then I think we have two -- P987. That is the chart.
12 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, Your Honours. P987 with the attachment of
13 65 ter 28723A, which is the corrected version of the chart --
14 JUDGE ORIE: And that has been uploaded already and has it
15 already been attached to the chart so that it would make one exhibit?
16 MS. MacGREGOR: If you can give me one moment, I'll speak to
17 Ms. Stewart.
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, currently, the documents have two
20 separate 65 ter numbers. If you prefer, we can upload them as one.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the chart, P987, is admitted into
22 evidence, under seal. And hereby leave is already granted to attach to
23 the chart the new version, which is, at this moment, still separate but
24 could be attached to it.
25 Madam Registrar, is that clear enough?
Page 8986
1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. I just need to be provided
2 with the new 65 ter number.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the last one would be P988, which was ...
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's the list of detained persons. Well, I think
6 it was released ever since but ...
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: To be released persons.
9 Mr. Lukic, anything ...
10 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, do we -- in the meantime, do we have any data
11 on this document? Who created it?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because they were provided by an accused in
13 another case. And have you made any research on the background of it?
14 MS. MacGREGOR: I don't have additional information yet. I have
15 some queries out on a way to find more information about the document and
16 I can make a submission to the Court at a later time.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for the results of that. And, until
18 that moment, it will remain marked for identification.
19 Then these were all, I think. Is the Prosecution ready to call
20 its next witness?
21 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The next witness is
22 Mr. Brennskag. And Mr. Shin will be leading the evidence of that
23 witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the witness be escorted into the
25 courtroom.
Page 8987
1 MR. SHIN: Good morning, Your Honours.
2 If I may make some preliminary remarks while waiting for the
3 witness to come in.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
5 MR. SHIN: The Prosecution may have caused some confusion from
6 e-mails relating to exhibits with this witness and I apologise for that.
7 I would just like to briefly indicate what the Prosecution intends with
8 the exhibits so that there's some clarity now.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 MR. SHIN: The Prosecution intends to address only five exhibits
11 with this witness, pending, of course, any issues that may arise during
12 the course of the entirety of examination. Only one will be tendered as
13 an associated exhibit. The other four we will be addressing with the
14 witness. One of the four is an exhibit, that's exhibit 14178, 65 ter,
15 which we had noticed -- I'm sorry, I'm speaking too quickly so I'll slow
16 down.
17 65 ter 14178 we had noticed in our 92 ter motion as one we had
18 not anticipated tendering. It's two -- it's two pages, two photographs,
19 relating to a specific location and we do expect to use that in the
20 direct examination of this witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So at least confusion most likely is over now.
22 We'll see how to proceed.
23 Good morning, Mr. Brennskag. Not very polite of us, perhaps, to
24 continue talking when you enter the courtroom. Welcome.
25 Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a
Page 8988
1 solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I invite you
2 to make that solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: PER ANTON BRENNSKAG
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Brennskag. Please be seated.
7 Mr. Shin, I do not know whether there were other matters before
8 we start the witness's testimony but I didn't want him remain standing
9 any longer.
10 MR. SHIN: Yes, there are no other preliminary matters.
11 Examination by Mr. Shin:
12 Q. And I apologise as well to you, Mr. Brennskag, for speaking while
13 you were standing there.
14 Good morning, Mr. Brennskag. Could you please state your full
15 name for the record.
16 A. My name is Per Anton Brennskag.
17 Q. Mr. Brennskag, is it correct that you provided signed statements
18 to the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal in May of 1996 and
19 October of 2006?
20 A. Yes, it's correct.
21 Q. And have you previously testified before this Tribunal in the
22 cases against Dragomir Milosevic in March of 2007; Momcilo Perisic in
23 February of 2009; and Radovan Karadzic, on the 29th of October and the
24 1st of November, 2010?
25 A. That's correct.
Page 8989
1 Q. In preparation for your testimony in the Karadzic case, did you
2 review a statement that amalgamated relevant portions of your previous
3 statements and other information provided to the OTP, as well as from
4 your testimony in the Milosevic and Perisic cases?
5 A. Yes, I have.
6 Q. Mr. Brennskag, I've been cautioned that we should give a pause
7 between the question and answer to give time for the interpreters to
8 catch up. That's primarily my fault. I will try to keep that in mind as
9 well.
10 And in preparing to give evidence here today, did you have a
11 chance to review this amalgamated statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could I please have 65 ter 28710 brought up on e-court.
14 Mr. Brennskag, once the document is on the screen - and we have
15 it now - could you please take a look at the first page and indicate
16 whether you recognise the signature at the bottom to be yours?
17 A. Yes, I recognise my signature.
18 Q. And if I could please have the last page of the document on
19 e-court.
20 Mr. Brennskag, I'll ask you again if you recognise the signature
21 at the bottom to be yours.
22 A. This is my signature.
23 Q. Do you recognise this document to be your amalgamated statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you able in the course of preparing for your evidence here
Page 8990
1 today, were you able to identify any clarifications that you wished to
2 make to this document? And if you could just indicate yes or no, please.
3 A. Yes, I -- yes.
4 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution will go through these
5 clarifications now with the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
7 MR. SHIN:
8 Q. Mr. Brennskag, did one of those clarifications relate to your
9 background as set out in paragraph 1 of your amalgamated statement?
10 And if I could have page 2 brought up in e-court, please.
11 Did you have a clarification you wished to make regarding your
12 background; in particular, your training and education?
13 A. Yes. I attended the Norwegian Military Academy during 1971 to
14 1974.
15 Q. Thank you. Did the other clarification relate to your
16 description of the trajectory of a modified air bomb?
17 And we would like to go to paragraph 34 of the amalgamated
18 statement on e-court, please, and that is on page 10 of the -- of the
19 English and page 15 of the B/C/S.
20 Is it correct that you wished to make a -- that you wished to
21 make a clarification of a sentence in the middle of paragraph 34 where it
22 states:
23 "Then it falls straight to earth."
24 And you may wish to begin a couple of sentences before that,
25 beginning:
Page 8991
1 "The trajectory of such a device is distinctive."
2 A. Yes. When the modified air bomb when the rockets have burned
3 out, the projectile does not, of course, fall straight to the ground but
4 slowly make a curve, almost like a ballistic curve, down to earth.
5 Q. With those corrections in mind, if you were asked about the
6 matters covered in your amalgamated statement today, would you provide
7 the same information, in substance, as contained therein?
8 A. Yes, to my best.
9 Q. And having taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm that the
10 information in the amalgamated statement is truthful and accurate?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender
13 65 ter 28710 into evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No objections?
15 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic hints there are no objections.
16 Madam Registrar, the statement would receive number ...
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28710 receives number P992.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P992 is admitted into evidence.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. SHIN: With respect to the associated exhibits, Your Honours,
21 as I had indicated, we would be tendering only one. And that is 65 ter
22 10159. And I -- yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Stojanovic, that is photographs of the
24 crime scene concerning a shelling incident, 22nd of June, on
25 Geteova Street Sarajevo.
Page 8992
1 Any objections?
2 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 65 ter 10159 will be ...
4 THE REGISTRAR: Number P993, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P992 is admitted. 993 is admitted. I made a
6 mistake.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 With your permission I will now read a brief summary of the
10 witness's evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
12 MR. SHIN: Mr. Brennskag, a retired lieutenant-colonel from the
13 Royal Norwegian Army was deployed with the United Nations in Bosnia on
14 the 22nd of March, 1995, as a Military Observer. He was initially
15 stationed with the UNMO team in Pale until the 24th of May 1995, with
16 responsibility for monitoring weapons collections points. He describes
17 the heavy restrictions placed on the UNMO team by the VRS.
18 On the 2nd of June, the witness was posted to the UNMO team in
19 Pofalici on territory held by the Bosnian government, where, from OP-4,
20 an observation post in Vikovac, he observed shelling incidents. Although
21 he saw firing from both side, most of the firing was coming into Sarajevo
22 from the VRS-held side. His duties with the Pofalici UNMO team included
23 investigations of shelling incident, patrols, and humanitarian work.
24 Mr. Brennskag describes the intensity of shelling in June 1995,
25 including a 24-hour period when he observed up to 150 impacts incoming
Page 8993
1 into Sarajevo. He describes modified air bombs he first observed in
2 June 1995, which were launched from VRS positions in Ilidza. The witness
3 also investigated incidents involving modified air bombs in
4 Alipasino Polje on the 22nd of June 1995 and another on the 1st of July.
5 The witness describes seeing on 28 June 1995 a modified air bomb
6 that was launched from VRS-held territory and that hit the Sarajevo TV
7 building. He also describes the shelling of the PTT building on the same
8 day.
9 Your Honours, that concludes the witness's evidence summary. If
10 we may proceed to the examination.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Shin. I think the totality of
12 the time for this witness was half an hour, isn't it?
13 MR. SHIN: That's correct, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And I would suggest that would bring us most likely
15 just a bit over 10.30, that we try to take the break slightly later and
16 that you can finish your examination-in-chief.
17 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. Mr. Brennskag, in your amalgamated statement at paragraph 18 you
19 state that you marked a map which showed the location of OP-4.
20 Could I please have 65 ter 19747 on e-court.
21 While we're waiting for that, Mr. Brennskag, you had indicated in
22 your statement that you had marked the location of OP-4 with a blue
23 triangle.
24 Just briefly, Mr. Brennskag, is this the map that shows OP-4 with
25 that blue triangle?
Page 8994
1 A. Yes. This is -- the triangle is observation post 4 at Vikovac.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender
4 65 ter 19747.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 Mr. Stojanovic.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19747 receives Exhibit P994,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. SHIN: Could I please have 65 ter 19745 on e-court.
14 Q. And, Mr. Brennskag, while we're waiting for that, in your
15 statement, amalgamated statement, at paragraphs 49 through 51, you
16 discuss an investigation on the 1st of July, 1995, into a modified bomb
17 impact. In paragraph 49 you indicate that you mark a map with a circle
18 showing where that impact was.
19 Now, looking at this map, is this the map and is that green
20 circle the circle showing where the impact was on the 1st of July, 1995?
21 A. This the map, and it's the mark and to be as far as I remember
22 the place, yes.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I have not found a green circle.
25 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, it's in the centre to the right.
Page 8995
1 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I see it. A very small one. Yes.
2 MR. SHIN: The Prosecution would tender 19745 into evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19745 receives P995, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P995 is admitted into evidence.
7 MR. SHIN: If I could please have 65 ter 14178 brought up on
8 e-court, please.
9 Q. Mr. Brennskag, while we are waiting for that document, also in
10 relation to the 1st of July, 1995, modified air bomb impact
11 investigation, you discuss in paragraph 51 of your amalgamated statement
12 certain photographs which showed damage at that location.
13 Could you, looking at the screen, first at this photograph - and
14 then could I have the second one please. That would be on the B/C/S
15 version.
16 Do you recognise -- while we're waiting -- yes. Do you recognise
17 these two photographs to be those photographs that you explain in your
18 amalgamated statement?
19 A. Yes. This is the Bosnian police photograph, but I have seen it
20 here in court before.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Brennskag.
22 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender
23 65 ter 14178 into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 14178 receives P996, Your Honours.
Page 8996
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. SHIN: If I could next please have 65 ter 09801 brought up on
3 e-court.
4 Q. And, Mr. Brennskag, while we are waiting for this document to
5 come up on the screen, you note in your amalgamated statement,
6 paragraph 33, that you were asked in your Perisic testimony about an UNMO
7 daily sitrep.
8 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry. Can I just have a moment, please.
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 MR. SHIN: My apologies to the -- to the Court Officer. I am
11 actually looking for 09081. So I misspoke.
12 Q. Mr. Brennskag, while we're waiting for the correct document to
13 come up on the screen, this is -- you'll recall in your Perisic testimony
14 you were asked about an UNMO daily sitrep.
15 First, looking at the right side of your screen, do you recognise
16 this document as the one that you were shown during your Perisic
17 testimony?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Turning now to the -- near the top of this document, we see the
20 letters DTG and then a series of numbers to the right. Would it be
21 correct that this line indicates that the report is issued at 6.00 a.m.
22 on the 19th of June, 1995?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. For clarification, what does the designation DTG signify?
25 A. Date, time, group.
Page 8997
1 Q. Thank you. In the middle of the page, on this first page, we
2 see -- we see the subject line. Can we understand that subject line to
3 mean this report addresses events occurring during the 24-hour period of
4 18th of June, 1995?
5 A. That's correct.
6 MR. SHIN: If I could please have page 7 of the English version
7 on e-court. And I note that the translation into B/C/S was done in two
8 documents for some reason. So it would be the second translation in
9 B/C/S, second page.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you also slow down and make pauses
11 between [Overlapping speakers] ...
12 MR. SHIN: [Overlapping speakers]... yes. Of course, Your
13 Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... questions and answers.
15 MR. SHIN: Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Brennskag, looking at the right side of your screen, we see
17 near -- a little below the middle the letter G followed by the words
18 "UNMO Sarajevo."
19 Below that, we see the words "military activities" -- I'm sorry,
20 "military activity," and then below that "cease-fire violations/firing
21 incidents."
22 Below that, we see six column headings, and I would ask you to
23 describe very briefly the -- what each of those column heading means.
24 Taking first the one on the left, DTG-18?
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not sure if we have the right B/C/S page on
Page 8998
1 our screens. Please check that.
2 MR. SHIN: Okay.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The B/C/S translation consists of two parts and that
4 of course may create some confusion.
5 MR. SHIN: Yes. Could I please have the second --
6 Just one moment, Your Honour, if I can confer with Ms. Stewart.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. SHIN: If I could have ERN -- for the B/C/S translation, if I
9 could have ERN R0086180 brought up, please.
10 Yes. And if I could have the second page of this document,
11 please.
12 And we see for B/C/S speakers we see on the left, at the top,
13 the -- the same designation, DTG, and the -- the next -- and those are
14 the six heads that we'll be addressing. If we go across to the right
15 from DTG.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's the right page now.
17 MR. SHIN: Okay. Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. Mr. Brennskag, you had explained the heading, if we look to the
19 right again, DTG 18. The next heading is location and grid. If you can
20 explain what that signifies, please.
21 A. That is the location of the observation post made in six numbers,
22 grid reference. It means within 100 metres in a map of one scale
23 1:50.000.
24 Q. Okay, thank you. And the next heading: "Type of fire."
25 A. What was fired. For example, [indiscernible] explosions.
Page 8999
1 Q. Okay. And the next line -- heading is "origin."
2 A. Origin, from where it was fired.
3 Q. And the line after that -- sorry, the heading after that is
4 "impact in target area."
5 A. It's the impact, where it impacted.
6 Q. So that would be where the -- the firing incident -- where --
7 where the -- where it landed.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the last one on the right, "remarks," perhaps speaks for
10 itself.
11 If I could please turn to -- have the next page in English on the
12 e-court. And in --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first ask what GA stands for, as ...
14 MR. SHIN: Would that be below "origin," Your Honours?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. SHIN:
17 Q. Mr. Brennskag, if you know, you see under the heading "origin,"
18 the designation GA followed by the word "Grbavica." Could you -- if you
19 know, could you please explain.
20 A. I'm not sure, but as far as I remember, general area of Grbavica.
21 But I'm not sure.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 If we could turn to the page 8 of the English.
Page 9000
1 And if you could just give me a moment, Your Honours, to check
2 the B/C/S translation.
3 Just one moment -- just one moment, please, Your Honours.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, it's the top of the next -- of page 3 on
6 this B/C/S translation. Okay.
7 If we --
8 Q. Mr. Brennskag, on the right, if we look at the line approximately
9 one-third of the way down on the page, that begins on the left 1146B, for
10 Bravo, and on the left we see that entry at the very top on the -- on the
11 B/C/S page, for B/C/S readers.
12 So, Mr. Brennskag, if we focus on that line, you've described the
13 headings. Could you explain, first of all, 1146B, would that be correct
14 that this is an incident that was observed at 1146 in the morning?
15 A. 1146 in the morning, Bravo. It's summertime, local time.
16 Q. Thank you. And the next line, OP-4. What would that mean?
17 A. That it was observed from the observation post 4 at Vikovac.
18 Q. And the next entry there is 1 EXPL.
19 A. One explosion.
20 Q. And after that, unknown?
21 A. The origin of fire, unknown.
22 Q. After that Dobrinja, and underneath it -- I'm sorry, if you could
23 pause for a moment. My apologies. I am speeding up and unfortunately
24 you may be following me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Even when you are explaining that, you are speeding
Page 9001
1 up. You do even that at such a speed. Take your time, Mr. Shin.
2 MR. SHIN: Yes, thank you, Your Honours. I will -- I will be
3 very slow now.
4 Q. Mr. Brennskag, under the word "Dobrinja," we see the designation
5 BP 865564. Could you please explain what that signifies?
6 A. It's impact, the impact, marked with grid reference within 100
7 metres.
8 Q. And once again, then, by impact, you mean this is where the
9 projectile landed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And in the last column to the right we see fired BSA. What does
12 that mean?
13 A. It means that it was fired from the BSA area.
14 Q. Now, one final question on this document, Mr. Brennskag. It says
15 here, "fired BSA," as you just explained. But two columns over to the
16 left, we see unknown. Could you explain how we are to understand those
17 two?
18 A. Yes. Normally we were two observers on the observation post, and
19 if we didn't agree exactly from where it was fired, we -- we stated
20 unknown. But we agreed that the area was, for certain, on the BSA side.
21 Q. Thank you for that explanation, Mr. Brennskag.
22 The final area that I will be asking you questions about regard
23 the flight path of modified air bombs, as you've described in your
24 statement.
25 In your amalgamated statement - paragraph 36, Your Honours - you
Page 9002
1 state that you saw four to six modified air bombs being launched from VRS
2 positions.
3 I would like to ask you first if you could explain to the Court
4 what you see when a modified air bomb is launched.
5 A. I see the smoke tail from the rocket until the rocket has burned
6 out.
7 Q. And this smoke tail, is this something that you saw with each of
8 the modified air bombs that you saw launching from Ilidza?
9 A. Yes, it was.
10 Q. When you compare the launch of a modified air bomb from a mortar
11 or artillery shell, what is the difference in what you see?
12 A. For example, a mortar and an artillery gets its power from the
13 initial charge. And then you can see or hear from a mortar, like a poof
14 if you are near enough, and in the darkness, you can see small fire. And
15 then you can't see the projectile.
16 The artillery gets its velocity or speed from the initial charge,
17 and you see a big flame, and you heard -- you hear a bang, very
18 distinctive, but you can't see the -- normally you can't see the
19 projectile during its flight, if it is close enough and then you are in
20 danger, you can hear the whistle of the artillery projectile just before
21 its land.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Brennskag. To be -- so that we're clear, the
23 smoke-trail that you see from a modified air bomb launch, do you see
24 something like that with regard to a mortar or artillery shell?
25 A. No.
Page 9003
1 Q. You've described the differences in what you see and what you
2 hear between a modified air bomb and mortars and artillery shells.
3 I'd like to ask you: From what you see can you see what the
4 trajectory is of a modified air bomb compared to the -- the trajectory of
5 a mortar or artillery shell?
6 A. I try to explain.
7 As long as the rocket on the modified air bomb is burning, you
8 can see the trajectory. It's almost [indiscernible] depending on the
9 elevation. For the mortars and artillery, you can't see the trajectory.
10 Q. And if you could say, how would you compare the height of the
11 trajectory of a modified air bomb from a mortar or artillery shell?
12 A. Of course, it depends on how much gun power you put behind the
13 mortar and artillery piece -- projectile. But normally mortars have a
14 very high trajectory. Artillery, some lower trajectory, but it is a
15 ballistic trajectory.
16 Q. And when you are describing here the trajectory of a modified air
17 bomb, can you -- is that something - just to be clear - that you can see
18 from looking at the trajectory of the smoke-trail?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Mr. Brennskag, I'm told that in your earlier answer there's a
21 word missing in our transcript so I'd like to go back over that.
22 You were explaining initially in the difference of trajectory
23 that:
24 "As long as the rocket on the modified air bomb is burning you
25 can see the trajectory. It's almost," blank, "depending on the
Page 9004
1 elevations."
2 Could you explain that again about "depending on the elevation"
3 so we have that accurately.
4 A. The -- the -- the launch of a -- the modified air bomb, the
5 trajectory is depending of which elevation it will be fired. Let's say,
6 example, 45 degrees, 30 degrees. That's only examples.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, you are beyond your 30 minutes.
8 MR. SHIN: Yes. I -- that was actually my last question, and I,
9 in fact, have only one matter to deal with and that is tendering 65 ter
10 9081.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please, then, do that. That has hereby been
12 tendered.
13 Any objections, Mr. Stojanovic? No.
14 Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 09081 receives number P997,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P997 is admitted into evidence.
18 MR. SHIN: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Brennskag, we'll take a break. You're invited
20 to follow the usher. We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
Page 9005
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
2 Meanwhile, I use the time, and I'm addressing you, Mr. Groome.
3 The Chamber notes that on the 12th of February, the Prosecution
4 submitted that it is no longer necessary to call Witness RM175. That is
5 at transcript page 8510.
6 I'd like hereby to ask you that the Prosecution confirms that it
7 withdraws the 92 ter motion of Witness RM175, which was filed on the
8 21st of November of last year.
9 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's then hereby on the record. Motion is
11 withdrawn.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated -- yes, you are seated already,
14 Mr. Brennskag.
15 You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic
16 is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
17 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. I would like briefly to go
20 through your statement, and then we will take a look at some documents
21 dealing with events that you yourself participated in.
22 Could we now take a look together at 5992, paragraph 6, of your
23 statement that was admitted into evidence.
24 In paragraph 6 of your statement, you comment on your notes. And
25 you say, among other things, that after the training course, you were, as
Page 9006
1 you yourself said, ill-prepared, and this in reference to the upcoming
2 mission.
3 What did you imply by "ill-prepared for the mission"? What did
4 you mean by that?
5 A. What I mean by that, the course in Finland, political and
6 historical and the problems, were fixed or focussed at the Middle East.
7 When I was posted in Balkan, we had no such education before I went to
8 Zagreb. But for the exact job, we were not -- I were not ill-prepared.
9 Q. Did you go through any kind of training for the current events
10 and developments in Sarajevo and around it in 1995?
11 A. Yes. We arrived Zagreb, and we had around one week, ten days,
12 with preparations and education before I, for myself, went to Pale.
13 Q. While you were in Zagreb, during that course, were you aware that
14 there was a cease-fire agreement in place in Sarajevo and around it?
15 A. All I was educated and should know was that it was one or two
16 agreements. It was the 20k exclusion zone around Sarajevo and the
17 anti-snipe agreement. That's far as I know today.
18 Q. Did you ever have occasion to see any of those agreements, to
19 read them and learn about them in this way?
20 A. As far as I can remember today, I'm not sure, but I think no.
21 Q. Now let us take a look at paragraph 9 of your statement, so P992,
22 and I say this for the record, Your Honours.
23 And the reason that I'm putting these questions to you is that I
24 would like to -- us to comment on this paragraph, I'd like you to be able
25 to see it before. You say here:
Page 9007
1 "One of the agreements envisaged the withdrawal of heavier
2 weaponry outside the 20-kilometre exclusion zone. Heavier weaponry
3 within the exclusion zone was supposed to be collected at the collection
4 points that were monitored by the UN."
5 And then you go on to list what weapons you consider heavier
6 weaponry.
7 The first thing I would like to ask you is this: If you did not
8 have occasion to see that agreement, who briefed you on what the
9 agreement actually implied?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the witness, in his statement, does
11 not explain -let me see, how do you say it - what weapons the witness
12 considered heavier weaponry. He just told us that certain types of
13 weaponry were included in that category which is not the same.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. And I
16 will read the sentence that I would like to ask him about.
17 It says in, in paragraph 9:
18 "Heavier weaponry included, mortars, artillery, anti-aircraft
19 guns, and tanks."
20 Q. I suppose can you see that. So my question is this: Could you
21 tell us, please, how you personally learned or understood what was meant
22 by "heavier weaponry" in the course of your mission?
23 A. It was told me by the senior team member. And during our
24 inspections of the Weapons Collection Point, I learned to know.
25 Q. Where it say, "mortars," can you tell me which mortars that term
Page 9008
1 "heavier weaponry" referred to, or did it include all types of mortars,
2 regardless of their calibre?
3 A. As far as I remember today, it was mortars from 80 millimetres
4 and up.
5 Q. Did the term "heavier weaponry" within the exclusion zone, the
6 20k exclusion zone, did that include anti-aircraft machine-guns, or PAMs,
7 P-A-Ms?
8 A. As far as I remember, anti-aircraft guns were included in heavier
9 weaponry.
10 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber, this exclusion zone, the 20k
11 exclusion zone, from a imaginatory centre did it apply to the VRS alone
12 or did it apply to the BH army as well?
13 A. That I can't remember today.
14 Q. Sir, could you also tell us whether I would be right if I
15 concluded that a portion of that weaponry, of the VRS, was supposed to be
16 collected at certain locations and the portion of weaponry that could be
17 qualified as heavier weapons could remain in areas where it had been
18 within the exclusion zone, the 20-kilometres exclusion zone?
19 A. As far as I remember today, it was an agreement that some of the
20 weapons could be within the exclusion zone without being in the
21 collection points. That's why we also inspected those weapons who were
22 not in the Weapon Collection Points.
23 Q. What I would like to know - and I believe you can find that in
24 paragraph 11 of your statement; perhaps we can take a look for fairness
25 sake - as you understand this agreement, who was it who determined what
Page 9009
1 was to be taken outside the 20k exclusion zone and what weapons; or what
2 it was that was to remain at the previous firing positions, where they
3 had already been before?
4 A. As far as I can see, two questions.
5 First, those weapons that were in the Weapons Collection Point
6 were not allowed to be taken out of the Weapons Collection Point. Those
7 few or weapons who were not in the collection point, they, as far as I
8 know, was an agreement that they should be positioned or stationary where
9 they were. For example, one explanation for why they were not moved to
10 the Weapons Collection Points were that they were not able to be towed or
11 it was some damages. But that's what -- as far as I know today.
12 Q. Based on what we see in paragraph 11, in other words, that the UN
13 accepted that those weapons could not be removed, my -- I'm asking you
14 whether you know who it was who would determine what weapons should not
15 be removed from the original, or the existing, firing positions within
16 the 20k exclusion zone?
17 A. I don't know who.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Shin.
19 MR. SHIN: Yes, I'm sorry -- I'm sorry to interrupt. But,
20 Your Honours, I think the witness may have answered this already. He
21 stated just a tittle bit above that the weapons -- that they were not
22 allowed to be taken out of the Weapons Collection Points but now the
23 question continues as to who would determine whether they could be taken
24 out or not.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I think that's -- what Mr. Stojanovic asks
Page 9010
1 the witness now is: Who would determine which weaponry could stay where
2 it was. It has nothing to do with taking them out from the collection
3 points. But which ones were not even expected to be transported into
4 this Weapons Collection Point.
5 Could you tell us who decided that?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understood the question and I don't know who
7 in the UN system who decided it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You already suggest that it was decided within the
9 UN system and not agreed upon by the party, for example.
10 THE WITNESS: That I don't know.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. I will conclude with this area with the following question: How
15 were you informed about this cease-fire? In the event that a warring
16 faction was attacked by another warring faction, how was it that -- or
17 was it allowed to reclaim its weapons, and how?
18 A. The two questions.
19 How I was informed about the cease-fire. I was answering
20 earlier, I have had informed in Zagreb and when I came to
21 Sector Sarajevo.
22 The rest of the question I don't know anything about because I
23 was not informed.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, your question refers to a
25 cease-fire, and you -- you're asking the witness how were you informed
Page 9011
1 about the cease-fire. The witness, I don't remember him ever telling us
2 that he was ever informed about a cease-fire. His statement says that he
3 was aware of two agreements: The 20-kilometre exclusion zone and the
4 anti-sniping agreement. He hasn't talked about a cease-fire. So I'm not
5 quite sure I understand your question who told you --
6 [overlapping speakers]
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With all due respect,
8 Your Honours, in paragraph 9 of this witness's statement, he states that
9 there were two agreements in force, two cease-fire agreements in place.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you're right. And then he explains
11 that these are the two agreements, the one about heavy weapons and the
12 other one with sniping.
13 Now, if you ask later a question, of course, you should make --
14 distinguish between the two if that is the case and then perhaps be a bit
15 more precise in what you put to the witness for him to answer.
16 But the witness said -- did you understand the last question to
17 deal with the exclusion zone for heavy weapons and whether, in case of an
18 attack, a party would be allowed to respond to that? Or did you refer to
19 any sniping events?
20 THE WITNESS: I can't refer to any sniping events, but I don't
21 know if it was accepted that use of heavy weapons inside the 20k zone.
22 The only thing I know today is that the -- it was several times breach
23 all those -- all this agreement.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Mr. Stojanovic, this might guide you as well. This witness
Page 9012
1 mainly comes here to testify about what he experienced, and you're asking
2 him questions about legal matters, such as what would be the consequences
3 of A and B. And it seems that the witness is primarily focussing on what
4 he saw and what he heard and that he can provide us with facts on those
5 matters.
6 Would you please focus on that primarily.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Can we now have in e-court, please, 65 ter document 14064. We
9 need page 3 in the B/C/S, paragraph 1; and page 2 in the English version.
10 While we are waiting for this document, let me just tell you that
11 these are the notes that the present witness made during his sojourn in
12 the area.
13 Q. Among other things, you say here that --
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, page 3.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we now have the English version before us --
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 2 in the English.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We earlier had Norwegian, and knowledge of the
19 Norwegian language by this Chamber is not at a level sufficient to
20 understand.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'm
22 going to read the relevant part.
23 Q. You say here that:
24 "Some of the reasons for the tragic outcome of the UN operation
25 in the former Yugoslavia in 1995 was, in my opinion, due to the fact that
Page 9013
1 many or, in some instances, all of the criteria set out above were never
2 attained. On top of that, in certain situations, I had the feeling that
3 the neutral party was not always that neutral."
4 Just one question with regard to this: Who were you specifically
5 referring when you noted this down?
6 A. Let me first explain. My private notes here were not written
7 down during my time as an observation -- Military Observer. It was
8 written down certain time afterwards. And this is a mix of what I know,
9 second-hand knowledge, thoughts, and opinions.
10 So that's why I can't here in court say who this was. But I had
11 a certain opinion that, afterwards, but I can't confirm it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Stojanovic, let's try to approach
13 this in a way we could expect a witness to assist us.
14 You say:
15 "On top of that, in certain situations ..."
16 Could you tell us what situations just for a fact, you -- in what
17 situations you got that feeling? I'm not yet talking about the feeling.
18 Do you remember such situations?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes. This was especially one situation on the top
20 of Igman mountain --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: -- where -- can I continue?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you can continue.
24 THE WITNESS: Where UN white vehicles were camouflaged by the UN
25 military personnel.
Page 9014
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There, you described a situation. You said:
2 "I had a feel that the neutral party was not always that
3 neutral."
4 And do I understand that in describing the situation, you already
5 described the facts which gave you that feeling.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, what we interested in is if the
8 witness has formed any opinions is primarily on the basis of what facts
9 and what situations he formed that opinion. Could you please keep that
10 in mind.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 In this same document, can we please focus now on page 12 in
13 B/C/S, first paragraph, and it corresponds to the seventh paragraph on
14 page 10 in the English version.
15 Q. Among other things, it reads:
16 "Gradually, I began to perceive that some of my fellow observers
17 from certain NATO countries are engaged in a completely different
18 assignment from the one which was envisaged. Trust in 'The Observers' is
19 beginning to crumble."
20 What led you to believe --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the sake of the interpreters especially but
22 also for the Bench, which paragraph are you reading from?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will repeat once again,
24 Your Honours. It's the same document, 65 ter 14064.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Which page, which paragraph so that we can
Page 9015
1 follow [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 12 in the B/C/S, first
3 paragraph, which corresponds to page 10, paragraph 7, in the English.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,
6 I'm going to read it again.
7 Q. You say here --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not necessary. It is on the record what
9 you read. We found the paragraph. Put the question to the witness.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. My question, sir, is: What led you to include in your notes a
12 statement of this nature? That is to say, that the observers were
13 engaged in a completely different assignment from the one envisaged and
14 that trust was fading slowly?
15 A. Yes. Again, this is my notes, my thought, my opinion, but I can
16 make a little bit more clear.
17 At that stage, it was big preparations -- this is knowledge I
18 have got afterwards. At this stage --
19 JUDGE ORIE: No -- no loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.
20 Yes, you may proceed.
21 THE WITNESS: At this stage, I afterward knew that NATO was
22 preparing for -- to intervene in the conflict. And I then observed that
23 certain NATO countries observers were used as -- to have more
24 information.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 9016
1 Q. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just verify whether I understood you well.
3 Did you say you observed that certain NATO countries observers --
4 did they receive more information or did they share information they
5 gained on the ground with whomever?
6 Which of the --
7 THE WITNESS: The last.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The last. So they were not just observing but
9 they're collecting information which they would pass on to their own
10 governments or to NATO or ...
11 THE WITNESS: That was -- well, I thought, yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You thought that. What did you see? What did
13 you hear? Which made you think this?
14 THE WITNESS: One example, we had UNPROFOR units inside the
15 theatre, and the -- some certain country observers, they had a lot of
16 meetings to UNPROFOR units HQ, and, of course, they dealed with
17 information for the preparation for the intervene -- the NATO intervene
18 in -- in the theatre.
19 JUDGE ORIE: They provided the information gained when acting as
20 observers and they provided that information to UNPROFOR so as to be
21 passed on and be used in preparing interventions.
22 Is that how I have to understand?
23 THE WITNESS: That I understood, but I can't confirm it today.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But what then exactly -- you say, I can't confirm
25 it. Where are your doubts? What did you see that made you believe? And
Page 9017
1 where do you think you had not sufficient information to now confirm it?
2 THE WITNESS: For example, those camouflaged UN white vehicles on
3 the top of Igman. After --afterwards I know that was a part of the
4 preparations for the intervene.
5 JUDGE ORIE: To say that the camouflaging of UN vehicles was a
6 signal to whomever would prepare interventions.
7 Is that how I have to understand it?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, I just want to know what you mean.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. I'll finish with this question.
13 When you said in your notes that trust in the observers was
14 slowly fading away, were you referring to the Army of Republika Srpska
15 due to the reasons that you just explained a little bit earlier?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic is supposed to remain seated. If you
17 want, you can use little notes, Mr. Mladic, and, as you may have noticed,
18 we allow you, when you remain seated, at low voice -- I ask you to remain
19 seated.
20 Mr. Mladic, please.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, please, can I
22 have just a few seconds with my client.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked Mr. Mladic, first of all, to remain
24 seated.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
Page 9018
1 JUDGE ORIE: 30 seconds. Low voice.
2 This is not a low voice anymore. You should stop the
3 consultation. You can use the next break for that.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 Mr. --
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your
7 understanding, Your Honours.
8 Q. Sir, if you recall, I asked you if this statement of yours about
9 the loss of trust was something that referred to the
10 Army of Republika Srpska due to the reasons that you enumerated earlier.
11 A. At that time, we had no observers on the Serb side, BSA side, so
12 I refer to what I know. The trust between the observers and the ABiH was
13 bad.
14 Q. Am I right to say that at that time it was General Smith who was
15 at the head of UNPROFOR?
16 A. That I can't remember.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have
19 65 ter 14064 admitted into evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
21 Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 14064 receives number D238,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 9019
1 Q. Can we now look at paragraph 23 of your statement; P992.
2 Would you be so kind just to comment briefly what you said in
3 your statement.
4 We have to wait for paragraph 23 which reads in the Post and
5 Telecom building your HQ was housed. And I'm asking you whether at the
6 same time certain elements of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were housed
7 on the same premises or only the officers that you specifically named
8 here.
9 A. I try to explain. This is what I in my statement remember, who
10 from the ABiH liaison team were placed in PTT building or had their
11 office.
12 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you this because further on in this
13 paragraph you say:
14 "They restricted us or placed restrictions on our ability to do
15 our job."
16 When you say "they," who are you referring to?
17 A. I can't remember who, but through the liaison officers from ABiH,
18 we were told where not to go. And we didn't have freedom of movement,
19 and every time we had to obey those restrictions.
20 Q. You say that the areas that were off limits for you - for
21 example, the hills north-east of town - in view of the position where you
22 were at the time, were you able to fathom why your freedom of movement
23 was restricted and why were you restricted in carrying out your mission?
24 A. I answer the question -- the last part of the question.
25 We were supposed to have freedom of movement and to inspect the
Page 9020
1 activities of the warring parties at that time on the BiH side. We were
2 not able to do that because there was placed restrictions to us. So we
3 were not able to go to the confrontation line on BSA -- on ABiH side, and
4 we were not able to inspect where perhaps we thought they had weapons and
5 collections of heavier weapons.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you know why these
7 restrictions were imposed upon you.
8 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. Can we now look at paragraph 26 of your statement, P992, where
12 you say that in the vicinity of your observation post, you saw a 55 tank
13 of Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 With regard to what you said about this tank, I wanted to ask you
15 if you were able to see its movement from your position, whether it left
16 its position.
17 A. From my observation post in Observation Post 4, we did not have
18 directly sight to the T-55. But every time we went to the observation
19 post and from the observation post, we could see the tank. And I myself
20 never saw it was moved and I never heard or saw it was fired from that
21 tank. But it is what I observed.
22 Q. According to your understanding on the 20k exclusion zone
23 agreement, was this tank supposed to be at that location, and should it
24 have been there?
25 A. That I don't know. Because I never knew about any
Page 9021
1 Weapons Collection Points inside Sarajevo, as far as I can remember
2 today.
3 Q. Thank you. Let us now look at the next paragraph, where you
4 speak about the fact that from your observation post, you had an
5 opportunity to see that both sides were firing. And, then, in the next
6 paragraph, 28, you say that:
7 "As far as the ABH is concerned, we could observe that ABH was
8 firing from inside Sarajevo, mostly with mortars."
9 I'm asking you this: Did you have any information that, apart
10 from orders, the ABH had other types of weaponry?
11 A. What I saw was mortars. I can only speculate if they have other
12 weapons. I think they have, but that's -- I can't confirm.
13 Q. Thank you. And let us now have document D156 in e-court, both
14 versions, in B/C/S and English.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document is under seal, Your Honours.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Which corroborates what ...
17 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With the Chamber's leave --
19 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
20 Madam Registrar, you intervened and it is not on the transcript.
21 Could you repeat what you said.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I just said that the document just
23 called, D156, is under seal.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And, therefore, not to be shown to the public.
25 Please proceed.
Page 9022
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. Sir, this document is dated 20 May 1995, which is a few days
3 before your arrival to OP-4. Here, the commander of the 12th division of
4 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, inter alia, orders, under item 1, the
5 following:
6 "Prepare a VP for a 105-millimetre H, in accordance with the
7 lasta order immediately, camouflage the artillery piece in the VP sector
8 and protect it against reconnaissance by UN forces."
9 Now by relying on your knowledge of artillery, are you familiar
10 with this designation, 105-millimetres H? What specific piece of weapon
11 is this?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just intervene for a moment.
13 We have heard this morning about date, time, how it was put on
14 paper. We have heard about grid references. All matters we have heard
15 100 of times.
16 So unless this is something else than 105-millimetre Howitzer,
17 it's useless to ask about it because we have had -- we have seen long
18 lists of weaponry, et cetera.
19 So, Mr. Stojanovic, if you have any impression that this witness,
20 who apparently does not know this document, could tell us anything else
21 than that this 105-millimetre H might refer to Howitzer, then it's a
22 superfluous question.
23 But the question has been asked. Would you understand 105-mm H
24 to refer to a Howitzer?
25 THE WITNESS: It's an artillery piece, yes.
Page 9023
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And H stands for?
2 THE WITNESS: Howitzer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what this Chamber has learned over the
4 last nine month in this case.
5 If there's anything -- the witness is not here to learn from this
6 document, but the witness is here for us to learn from what he observed.
7 Could you please keep that in mind when you proceed,
8 Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do so. Thank you.
10 Q. The reason I asked this was because of the following: It says
11 here that this artillery piece should be masked, camouflaged and
12 protected from observation by the UN.
13 I'm asking you, according to your experience, could you say that
14 there were similar situations to this one with regard to the
15 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is to say, trying to conceal heavy
16 artillery weapons from UN observers.
17 A. The only answer I can give here is that we were prevented to
18 inspect. And, therefore, we never saw or could be able to inspect those
19 weapons wherever they were.
20 So the -- I think this is my answer here.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And does that not already follow from your previous
22 answer that you didn't know whether they had anything else than mortars.
23 That you thought they may have had them but that you just don't know.
24 THE WITNESS: That's correct, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, in order to know than weaponry
Page 9024
1 other than mortars are concealed, Mr. Stojanovic, you must have knowledge
2 about them having those weapons, which the witness said he doesn't have.
3 So let's proceed.
4 But what Mr. Stojanovic might want to know is the following: Did
5 you ever receive information about activities aiming at concealing
6 weaponry by the army -- the ABiH?
7 THE WITNESS: Inside Sarajevo I can't remember I got any
8 information about that in my position as observer.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and in any other capacity, any other situation?
10 THE WITNESS: Of course we were told that they had capacities but
11 I can't confirm by myself.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. Now I would like to refer you to paragraph 29 of your statement,
16 P992, where you state - paragraph 29 - that you could see, had occasion
17 to see, that the BH army often fired mortars from a car junkyard near the
18 PTT building.
19 Would you tell the Trial Chamber, please, about this car junkyard
20 from where the BH army fired mortars. How far was it from the facilities
21 where you were housed?
22 A. As far as I can remember, it was just between the
23 Observation Post 4 and towards the PTT building. It was a huge car
24 junkyard, and we could see a part of it from the OP. How far, hmm, I
25 can't remember. But let's say 1 and a half k.
Page 9025
1 Q. In the same paragraph, you go on to say that you had heard that
2 the BH army deliberately fired from a civilian area to draw Serbian
3 counter-battery fire, counter-shelling.
4 Who did you hear these rumours from, that such things were
5 happening?
6 A. I heard the rumours. Who I heard it from, I can't remember. It
7 was maybe some discussions during our time in the team, or it was from
8 the PTT building. It was a lot of rumours, so I know that I heard the
9 rumours but I can't confirm anything about it.
10 Q. And my last question about this paragraph is this, you say:
11 "I saw the BH army establish military positions within civilian
12 areas, which is something they shouldn't have done."
13 Could you tell us, could you tell the Trial Chamber where you saw
14 these violations happening? Where specifically did you see that
15 happening?
16 A. I can't point out today. The car junkyard was -- this place I
17 saw weapons. They had small staff positions, other places in the town.
18 But where I'm not able to recognise today.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- could I, nevertheless, ask you to try to
20 remember a bit more precise.
21 Was it -- you said in town. Are you talking about the old town?
22 THE WITNESS: No. I'm talking about what we -- about in the new
23 town. The car junkyard is in the new town, and I maybe have pointed out
24 on a map here in the court another place where we knew -- or I visited a
25 small staff from the ABiH. But I didn't see any weapons there.
Page 9026
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you -- if you say the new town, was it
2 a -- an apartment building where civilians were living, in the cellar, or
3 was it a house, or -- could you remember --
4 THE WITNESS: This staff was established in the -- the basement.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The basement of ...
6 THE WITNESS: Of a building. And I -- I assume that it was
7 living people or civilians in the rest of the house.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And was that a house, or was that an apartment
9 block, or ...
10 THE WITNESS: Apartment block.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Apartment block. Was that by any chance in the
12 Dobrinja area or the Alipasino Polje area, if you remember?
13 THE WITNESS: This was east of Alipasino Polje area.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Alipasino Polje area, yes.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: East of that.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And how many people were there? You said there was
19 staff, you didn't see any arms. Was it five people, 100 people? Was
20 it ...
21 THE WITNESS: We had a meeting in there. Ten people. They had
22 their personal arms, no -- no heavy arms, no weapon positions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No. Personal arms, long-, short-barrelled pistols,
24 rifles?
25 THE WITNESS: Rifles, pistols, rifles.
Page 9027
1 JUDGE ORIE: Rifles and that was it. Please proceed.
2 Mr. Stojanovic, you may have noticed that the Chamber is
3 primarily interested to know about facts observed by the witness.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will do my best to
5 go through the facts. I will conclude with this question, referring to
6 this paragraph.
7 Q. Why did you say, in this paragraph, that the BH army was not
8 supposed to do this, that they shouldn't have done that?
9 A. During my military education, when we establish military
10 positions also a HQ or a small staff, you should not use civilians as a
11 shelter. In my opinion, then, the civilians should be evacuated from the
12 area, if you needed to be there for war reasons.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a
15 good time for our break.
16 JUDGE ORIE: This is a good time for the break.
17 Could the witness first be escorted out of the courtroom.
18 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
24 Meanwhile, two matters.
25 The witness proposed for this Friday to come and already to be
Page 9028
1 examined in-chief. The Chamber agrees with that. The Chamber has
2 noticed that the Defence is not yet ready to cross-examine the witness,
3 but to the extent a start of the cross-examination would be possible, of
4 course, that would be appreciated. But the Chamber does not find that we
5 are in any position at this moment to push the Defence in any direction.
6 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we don't have a statement yet, and we
7 don't have the documents yet so even for direct we have to to -- have
8 those --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] To be able to object -- or --
11 JUDGE ORIE: But I thought there was an agreement. There was no
12 objection against -- to hear the direct examination.
13 MR. LUKIC: I just raised with Mr. Shin, I don't know if it is
14 transferred to Mr. Groome that we don't have statement and the documents.
15 MR. GROOME: It has, and I have asked Mr. McCloskey to e-mail --
16 to address Mr. Lukic in an e-mail directly.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we might hear more about this. Then
18 this is not the final scheduling arrangement but we'll further hear from
19 the parties.
20 That is one.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Second, I already inform the parties in a little bit
23 more than 20 minutes from now, I'll not be able to continue to sit for
24 this day. And, on the basis of the conversations with my colleagues, I
25 expect that they'll consider it in the interests of justice to continue
Page 9029
1 hearing the case. But we might take a break of one minute then.
2 Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready, please proceed.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. Sir, I have two questions for you that seem appropriate at this
5 point.
6 One, do you remember that in June 1995 there was intense fighting
7 in the area that you observed?
8 A. Excuse me, could you be more precise.
9 Q. Specifically, do you know that, in June of 1995, there were --
10 there was intense fighting, intense combat operations in the area that
11 you observed from OP-4.
12 A. What we experienced in Observation Post 4, that was a very hectic
13 time, a lot of shelling, a lot of incoming artillery and mortars, and
14 also we observed outgoing mortars from ABiH side. But, of course, we
15 couldn't decide where it -- the impacts were on the other side.
16 As I have stated, as I remember, it could be around 150 impacts
17 inside Sarajevo.
18 Q. At any point in time, were you informed that the BH Army had
19 launched offensive operations in order to lift the blockade of Sarajevo?
20 At that point.
21 A. At the -- at the time, as an observer in Pofalici team, I was not
22 informed about this. It was obvious that it was no any agreement about
23 cease-fires, and that's also why we thought was a reason why we couldn't
24 do our job as observers -- or -- as observers.
25 Q. From the point where you were, the position where you were at
Page 9030
1 OP-4, you informed on what you had seen in terms of the use of artillery
2 weapons via radio communication; correct?
3 A. Sometimes by radio communication, and sometimes orally. Because
4 the radio communication was an open frequence, and everybody could hear
5 it; also the warring parties. So sometimes we did it orally with --
6 yeah, orally.
7 Q. At one point, you were wounded at your observation post; correct?
8 And let me ask you: Can you recall what date that was?
9 A. I can't recollect the date, and I won't say I was wounded. I
10 lost most of my hearing, and I use hearing-aids today. But I can't
11 recall the date.
12 Q. How did you come to the conclusion, or how did you see where that
13 mortar shell had come from, the mortar shell that injured you?
14 A. I can't remember now from where. But it was obvious from ABiH,
15 and I think I have explained it before, but it was because we were
16 reporting the grid references of the impacts of BSA artillery inside
17 Sarajevo, and, of course, it was a good help for BSA. And that, I think,
18 was why ABiH fired at those, as a warning.
19 Q. But can you agree with me that you had no information yourself,
20 you don't have any personal knowledge, about whether the
21 Army of Republika Srpska actually listened in on your communications.
22 A. Of course, I can't confirm it, but it was an open frequence.
23 Everyone has a Motorola. We knew that Motorolas, from my time in Pale,
24 were taken away from us by BSA. So we knew that this was possible and
25 maybe also interesting to listen at our communication.
Page 9031
1 Q. Based on the fact that the facility where you were when you were
2 injured and that that was in the area of -- under the control of the BH
3 army, you conclude that the BH army actually monitored your
4 communications; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. As -- again, I can't confirm that both parties had
6 possibilities to monitor our communications.
7 Q. And my final question about this: If I understood your previous
8 answer correctly, you said that you weren't sure where the shell had come
9 from, the shell that had impaired your hearing.
10 Did I understand that correctly?
11 A. Yes, you understood -- understood it correctly.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask for a clarification to the previous
13 answer.
14 You said: "Yes ... again, I can't confirm that both parties had
15 possibilities to monitor our communications."
16 Did you say I can confirm or I cannot confirm?
17 THE WITNESS: I know they had possibilities but I can't confirm
18 that they did it.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Now let us take a look at paragraph 32 of your statement, P992,
22 where you stated something different. So let's try and clarify that.
23 In paragraph 32, in the penultimate sentence - I think in English
24 that will be on the next page, Your Honours - you say the following:
25 "In this incident, the ABiH fired mortars at us from a car
Page 9032
1 junkyard."
2 Does this help jog your memory where that shell had come from,
3 the shell that caused injuries to you?
4 A. Yes. Difficult to remember. I've stated that the -- came from
5 the car junkyard. It's a slip of my memory, I think.
6 Q. Thank you. And let us just verify, check one inconsistency or
7 maybe that's how I perceive it.
8 In paragraph 32 of your statement you also say:
9 "And, of course," --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I first seek clarification what you exactly
11 meant with "it's a slip of my memory," that do you not remember now
12 anymore, or that there must have been a problem with your memory when you
13 gave this statement. Which --
14 THE WITNESS: No. The statement must be correct. I didn't
15 remember now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I have one follow-up question.
17 Could you see from where you were at the time, could you oversee
18 the -- the car junkyard? Could you see --
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, from the Observation Post 4, we could see part
20 of the car junkyard, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And did you see there a weapon firing? Is
22 that ...
23 THE WITNESS: I can't remember. Obviously must have been the --
24 from the car junkyard. We knew it was mortars there, and it's fairly
25 close, so first thing we knew it was one mortar shell landing in the
Page 9033
1 garden just in front of us and then, afterwards one into the wall.
2 JUDGE ORIE: What I'm trying to find out is whether you saw
3 anything or whether you thought this to be the only reasonable
4 explanation of the situation.
5 THE WITNESS: Must be the most reasonable explanation.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Of the situation. Thank you.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So I would just like to ask you to tell the Trial Chamber, to the
10 best of your knowledge, how far this junkyard was from the front line,
11 the line of separation of the two warring parties?
12 A. It's difficult for me to -- to -- to tell. It depends in which
13 direction, also. If I had a map, I would have pointed it out, but from
14 the junkyard to the nearest confrontation line, it must be under 1k. But
15 that's just an assumption now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And the Chamber would appreciate if any of the
17 parties would present the map to the witness in such a way that he could
18 mark, if he's able to do that. But perhaps we take a precise map just
19 covering the area so that we have a more precise marking.
20 Mr. Stojanovic, either you, or you, Mr. Shin, certainly will be
21 able to find the -- the map.
22 In what area is it approximately?
23 THE WITNESS: The car junkyard is in a straight line from the
24 Observation Post 4 to PTT building.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
Page 9034
1 THE WITNESS: In the middle of this distance.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: And the mortars there to, let's say the
4 confrontation line, around Butmir the nearest place maybe 1k.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You have marked -- perhaps you can use the same map
6 that you marked the observation post. Would you be able to mark on that
7 same map where the car junkyard was.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can mark where the car -- where the junkyard
9 was. But I also marked the map where I thought the confrontation line
10 was --
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll deal with the confrontation lines. But
12 perhaps, Mr. Shin, could you assist me, under which number was the map
13 admitted? Or Madam Registrar.
14 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honour. We're just conferring for a second
15 to make sure we get the proper P number. It's the document with the blue
16 triangle on it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assist. Admitted this
18 morning, it's P995 most likely.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave I
20 believe that's P994.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could be. I -- I'm totally relying on ...
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I gain the impression that you --
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P994.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You are --
Page 9035
1 MR. SHIN: Yes, that's correct.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You helped us all out, Mr. Stojanovic. Thank you
3 for that.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Sir, we will see before us a map that you marked in another case.
6 You marked OP-4. And I would like to ask you -- perhaps we can rotate
7 this. One more -- one more -- thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think for many persons it is easier to have
9 the north up. So if we rotate back one quarter, no. Any -- now one more
10 further to the right. Yes. Leave it to that. I think this is the --
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- best way of -- could we enlarge it slightly.
13 Witness, could you first tell us whether the place you are
14 supposed to mark, whether it appears on this map, yes or no.
15 THE WITNESS: On this map, you can't see the PTT building. You
16 see the TV building, but I don't think you can see the PTT building. But
17 I tried to mark where the car junkyard were. And it may be some --
18 incorrect somewhere.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness has marked it.
20 May I take it you want to tender the marked map, now double
21 marked mark.
22 Madam Registrar, the number would be.
23 THE REGISTRAR: The number --
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we could just
25 put an AO above this circle so that we know what this is a reference to.
Page 9036
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. AO. And it is the blue marking at the bottom
2 of the map. And the blue triangle was there already from a previous
3 marking.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's a circular marking left to the letter A.
6 Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Map marked by the witness receives D239,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D239 is admitted into evidence.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. Let me finish with this question.
13 This area where the car junkyard was, is it situated in a
14 residential area where the civilian population lived in 1995?
15 A. To my best memory, I don't think this was a residential area on
16 this side of the -- the river. Mostly it has been factories. But a
17 little bit to the right, it has been residential areas. So -- but I
18 don't know if there live people there at that time.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me this: Do you recall seeing or
20 having heard that the ABH used to use mobile mortars that were mounted on
21 vehicles and that moved along the line separating the warring parties?
22 A. No. As far as I know and remember, I never heard about it. We
23 knew that the mortars in the car junkyard were firing and then moving.
24 But in which way, I think -- I don't know.
25 Q. Thank you. I'll try to expedite the process.
Page 9037
1 The document put to you by the Prosecution which refers to an
2 UNMO report relating to the 18th of June, would you agree with me that
3 the majority of the firing of mortars that were established by OP-4
4 observers and registered by them, that the origin of fire is not known?
5 A. I have not studied this report thoroughly, so I don't know. I've
6 just shown this report just to explain what the report is -- the -- how
7 it's made.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you can just count in the document
9 and then you know how many of them have an unknown source of fire.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did my own
11 counting, but I fully understand what the witness said. However,
12 according to my calculation, as far as OP-4 is concerned and the
13 18th of June, it was established that 11 projectiles were fired from the
14 VRS portions, six from the positions of ABH, and that --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the last part of
16 the sentence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We can do it, and we can see it as well. And, of
18 course, there is always the slight confusion about what is in the origin
19 of fire column and what is in the remarks column, because I do understand
20 that any differences of view can be reflected in that column.
21 Mr. Stojanovic, first of all, I have to inform you that the map
22 the witness marked was saved before the letters AO were added.
23 Now, the only marking on the map, apart from the marking from the
24 previous case, it being a blue triangle, was a round or a ellipse or a
25 circular marking at the lower part of the map, and that is what the
Page 9038
1 witness marked. I don't think there's any need to do it again. But AO
2 therefore is not on the map at this moment.
3 We take a break of one minute.
4 --- Break taken at 12.46 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we proceed, if the record can show that the
7 Chamber is now sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis in the absence of
8 Judge Orie, who has just left the court now.
9 Thank you so much.
10 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. I'm going to finish with this paragraph. I suppose that this
13 document was admitted, and I'll finish with paragraph 32 from your
14 statement and then I'll move on to the questions relating to modified air
15 bombs.
16 Let us just briefly look at paragraph 32 of your statement. And
17 let us solve this apparent discrepancy. You say here, among other
18 things, sir:
19 "We reported the grid references of impact from artillery. And,
20 of course, everyone was listening."
21 Today you said that you only supposed that they were all
22 listening.
23 Now I'm asking you: What is exactly accurate and correct? Did
24 you really know that they were listening in, or is it just an assumption
25 of yours?
Page 9039
1 A. As I said, I can't confirm that someone was listening or
2 monitoring. Of course, I couldn't confirm it. But they were fully
3 possible to do it.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 Can we have in e-court 1D802, please. 1D802.
6 I needed the next page. I'm going to ask you a few questions
7 relating to the paragraphs 34, 35, and 37 of your statement?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Shin.
9 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, just with respect to the document that's
10 been brought up in e-court, when -- and perhaps my colleague was going to
11 come to that, and I apologise if I'm interrupting, but if we could have
12 some information about its provenance.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,
15 this is an official web site, weapons and artillery pieces produced by
16 Krusik Valjevo, a factory in Serbia. And it can also be found on the
17 official site in -- of weapons and other artillery pieces sold by SDPR
18 company from Belgrade.
19 This is information that has references to official weapons used,
20 as it says here, in compliance with NATO standards. And the issue here
21 is aerial bombs, FAB 100 and FAB 250, and we're going to have an
22 opportunity to see those.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Shin.
24 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if -- if -- in due course if we could
25 receive the information about the web sites that my colleague has
Page 9040
1 referred to, and then we will -- we'd like to take a look at that. But,
2 for the time being, of course, it has not been tendered.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not being tendered, yes. And if it does get
4 tendered, are you -- do you have -- are you going to take a position on
5 that?
6 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honour. At that time, at this point with
7 the information we have we would probably ask that it be MFI, while we
8 have an opportunity to look into its provenance. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Very well then.
10 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. And thank you,
12 Mr. Prosecutor.
13 Q. So, sir, what I would like to ask you is this: In your
14 professional career, did you have an opportunity to come across this type
15 of aerial bombs? Did you observe their effects and the consequences of
16 their impact?
17 A. I think I have stated this before, but, first, I have never seen
18 this page in front of me. And I am not an expert on air bombs, or
19 improvised air bombs. I have never seen it intact. Never. I only --
20 only investigated two impacts where it is stated -- we have stated that
21 has been air bomb.
22 I have never in my earlier career, before Balkan, seen or been
23 educated on these kind of bombs.
24 Q. On what basis, then, do you draw the conclusion contained in
25 paragraph 35 of your statement, to the effect that the said air bombs
Page 9041
1 were something that could be compared to Katyushas that you saw fired in
2 the Middle East?
3 A. I have seen Katyushas in the Middle East. I have not seen the
4 launchers. They used several types of launchers. By learning, we knew
5 that they were not accurate. They couldn't pin out where they were going
6 to strike. Yes.
7 Q. And then what led you to make a conclusion that a modified air
8 bomb, as you called them, were inaccurate?
9 A. By those two investigations. They didn't strike where any
10 military compound or positions were. One I -- one impact was in a garden
11 and the other impact was in the vicinity of Alipasino Polje, in the
12 middle of a paved road.
13 Q. May I then conclude on the basis of this that you understood that
14 the real target was not the actual target where the air bomb fell.
15 A. I -- I -- I really don't know, but as an army man, in -- and what
16 I have seen by Katyushas and I've seen those five, six, modified air
17 bombs, they are not efficient in -- in a war.
18 Q. In one of the two events in which you were involved in the
19 investigations, you speak, in paragraph 37 of your statement, and you say
20 that to the best of your recollection you marked the place where the
21 modified air bomb impacted.
22 Can you describe for the Chamber the appearance of the crater
23 that you saw where this bomb landed.
24 A. I don't have my statement on the screen.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,
Page 9042
1 it's P992, paragraph 37.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we have that on the screen just now.
3 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, we also, with your leave, have a copy of
4 the witness's amalgamated statement for his reference, if that would be
5 helpful.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think this would be more
7 efficient and faster.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... or are you happy
9 with it going straight to the witness?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 Q. And I would kindly ask the witness also to look at paragraph 49
12 of his statement because he spoke about this matter directly there as --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we finish with paragraph 37. You had referred
14 to paragraph 37 first, so can we deal with that just before we go to
15 paragraph 49.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
17 Q. Sir, according to what you remember, and you mention here the
18 second investigation of an air bomb impact of the 2nd of July.
19 Can you describe the crater?
20 A. It was a -- it's difficult for me to describe it. We
21 investigated it. The Bosnian police were at the same place, and they
22 also investigated it, and they took pictures of the crater. I assume it
23 was a -- what you -- a big crater. As I remember, my colleague was down
24 in the crater, and it was as high as him, deep as him, he was high.
25 Yeah.
Page 9043
1 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, what is your estimate of the
2 weight of the modified air bomb? What would be its size? What would be
3 the size of such an explosive device.
4 A. I'm not able to -- to assume. Because I don't have the -- my
5 report or my colleague's report, and it's 18 years ago.
6 Q. Thank you. Since I'm going to move to a specific event in which
7 you were involved on the 22nd of June, I'm going to put to you only one
8 part of the Defence case, which is the following: We say that the
9 modified air bombs met all the technical requirements and that are placed
10 before artillery pieces. These were tested projectiles, and they had the
11 necessary precision of firing.
12 Now, with regard to your knowledge of air bombs, would you
13 confirm or deny this claim?
14 A. I neither can confirm or deny this. I only has stated what I
15 have learned about the five to six air bombs I saw being firing in
16 Sarajevo.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just find out. From that position of the
19 Defence that you have just enunciated, Mr. Stojanovic, can the Chamber
20 accept that it -- the Defence does accept, concede that they had modified
21 air bombs?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. The Defence
23 accepts that they did exist. It is in dispute only who fired them and
24 also the quality of those projectiles is questionable.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you're not answering my question. My question
Page 9044
1 is: Does the Defence accept that the Defence -- that the VRS had
2 modified air bombs? Not that they existed but that they had them, they
3 owned them.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this point in time, the
5 Defence cannot accept such a statement.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I don't understand the Defence position as
7 you put it here.
8 How the Defence come to know that ...
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then just make your -- just a second.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We're going to adduce evidence
12 about the origin of fire and we should provide very accurate data.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fair enough. I don't understand what you mean by
14 saying:
15 "We say that the modified air bombs met all the technical
16 requirements and that -- that are placed before artillery pieces. These
17 were tested projectiles, and they had the necessary precision of fire."
18 That is what you say. I'm asking you: Did the VRS have this in
19 their arsenal, these kind of bombs, air bombs.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely not, Your Honours.
21 And you will see.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will be very
24 specific.
25 Q. Sir, in view of what you discussed in the Karadzic case, do you
Page 9045
1 have any knowledge whether the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had modified
2 air bombs in its possession?
3 A. I think, as I said then, I had no knowledge that the Bosnian --
4 that the ABiH had these kind of air bombs.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, can we please look at the investigation referred
6 to in paragraphs 39 onwards, relating to an impact of the modified air
7 bomb on the 22nd of June, 1995.
8 To the best of your recollection, was that an impact caused by a
9 modified air bomb or by another type of projectile?
10 A. To my -- to the best of my knowledge, and my remembrance, we
11 investigated the impact, and we found rests or pieces from a rocket.
12 Pieces from a rocket.
13 Q. Was that rocket attached to the air bomb or to a 155-millimetre
14 shell?
15 A. At this time, I can't remember. I need the report.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,
17 can we please have 65 ter document 10158A in e-court; ERN page 5082. And
18 that's page 9 in the B/C/S. Unfortunately, we haven't received an
19 official translation from the Prosecution, and we have sent this document
20 ourselves to have it officially translated, and with your permission I'm
21 going to read it.
22 Q. So, sir, this is a document that has a number of pages relating
23 to the on-site investigation conducted on the 18th of July, 1995, on
24 Geteova Street, number 12.
25 It is stated that it was involving an improvised device for
Page 9046
1 warfare whose propulsion structure was based on the rocket motor,
2 Grad calibre, 122 millimetres. Whereas, the warhead part of the
3 projectile was probably a Howitzer projectile, 155-millimetre calibre,
4 HEM 107.
5 I apologise once again for not having an English translation.
6 Does this report refresh your memory of the appearance of the
7 projectile in question?
8 A. I'm sorry, I can't find what you're referring to. On my right
9 side, I have ...
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: On the right side is your statement.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's a different document on the right side.
12 Unfortunately, Mr. Stojanovic says there is no English translation at
13 this stage of this document.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 THE WITNESS: Because in my own amalgamated witness statement
16 of --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Sorry. Sorry, can you
18 stop talking, please.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I was trying to explain to you,
21 Mr. Brennskag, that Mr. Stojanovic told us that this document has no
22 translation yet. He is reading to you what he has written on it, and
23 you've got to listen to the interpretation as to what is there. So
24 you're not going to see it on the screen. You're going to hear it here.
25 Can you proceed, Mr. Stojanovic? Maybe if you just read again
Page 9047
1 for the witness to hear what the interpretation is.
2 But before you do, so I see Mr. Shin is on his feet.
3 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours, just a point of clarification.
4 This particular page is not actually part of 10158A. It extends past
5 that, past the ERN range for that 65 ter number. We will see if we can
6 try to locate a translation for it. But, at present, we don't have it at
7 hand because it is not actually part of that 65 ter number. It is part
8 of a broader 65 ter number which is 10158 but, again not part of 10158A.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In addition to that, I would kindly ask
10 Mr. Stojanovic to introduce this document. By whom was it drafted, sent?
11 Who is the author? We have no idea because we see only the last page on
12 the screen, we have no idea, the date and all these details which are
13 necessary to understand what you are asking the witness.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. If can you show us to the first page and
15 explain to us from the first page what this document is. For the witness
16 to understand also.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I believe
18 I've read this.
19 Can we take a look at 101582 in e-court. In B/C/S, that's 5079,
20 ERN -- the ERN range. And this is a document that we received from the
21 Prosecution. This is the first page of a document dated
22 18th of July, 1995.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is the next page there?
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] ... is it number
25 10158A?
Page 9048
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ...
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Madam Registrar. Mr. Shin said this is
4 10158. But it goes beyond 10158A. Are you -- are you disputing what
5 Mr. Shin says? Are you saying that it is part of the A part of it?
6 Madam Registrar?
7 THE REGISTRAR: There is only one 65 ter number in e-court.
8 10158. And not another one uploaded separately.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Shin.
10 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours, I've just confirmed that apparently
11 10158A was not uploaded as such, so it contains -- it does -- while it
12 contains the B/C/S -- the 10158 remains. Therefore while it contains the
13 B/C/S, we -- it does not contain the English. We are actively trying to
14 locate the English to see if there is an English and see if we can bring
15 it up as soon as possible.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Does it then mean that this document before
17 us is 10158 not 10158A because A has not been uploaded.
18 MR. SHIN: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You understand that, Mr. Stojanovic? So we
20 must strike off the A at the end of the reference to this document.
21 Okay. You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.
23 Thank you.
24 Q. I will just recap briefly.
25 This is a document from the administration for the prevention --
Page 9049
1 for crime prevention of the Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo dated
2 18th July 1995. And the subject is an on-site investigation on the trace
3 evidence at the site left after an impact of a projectile.
4 And I've quoted the fourth page of this document, which has the
5 number ERN 00375082, where it says that the warhead is probably a
6 155-millimetre Howitzer shell.
7 But, now, perhaps this will save some time. Let's take a look at
8 P993, the second photo, as forwarded by the Prosecution.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, I'm a little bit confused. You
10 are saying this document we just saw was dated 18th of July, 1995. The
11 document contained a different date. Not the 18th of -- it was at
12 22nd June or July; I don't recall because it disappeared from the screen.
13 Can you -- can you give us a clear, correct reference.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Or, better still, can we have a look at the
15 document again ourselves.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Especially page 1.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The next page.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is 22nd of June, 1995, not 18th of July. Are
21 we talking about the same document?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. And let me
23 try to explain.
24 This is a collection of documents dealing with the same event,
25 the incident of 22nd of June, that the witness talked about in his
Page 9050
1 statement. The document that I quoted was an expert report prepared on
2 the basis of documents produced by the forensic experts and based on the
3 trace evidence found on site during the on-site investigation of the
4 incident of 22nd of June, 1995, and this expert report was drafted on the
5 18th of July, 1995.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But this is not what we can see on the screen.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] What you see on the screens,
8 Your Honours, is the first official report from the site itself. On the
9 22nd of June. The expertise itself is -- was done on the 18th of July,
10 and the Defence received this expertise in a collection -- in a batch of
11 documents under 65 ter number 10158A.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you take us to the page where the document of
13 July, of the 18th of July begins.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And again Mr. Shin pointed out and it was
15 confirmed by Madam Registrar that the document with the letter A is not
16 in e-court.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Take us to the first page of the document of the
18 18th of July, Mr. Stojanovic. And bear in mind the time.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours.
20 Perhaps then we should go on break now so I can reorganise and perhaps
21 provide a hard copy of this document for you. I have it before me.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then we will take a break for you to
23 recollect yourself. Yeah.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May -- before we take the break, may we please
Page 9051
1 move into private session.
2 But the witness is excused in the meantime. We will come back at
3 20 to, Mr. Witness.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 [Private session]
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 9052
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 9052-9062 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 9063
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
Page 9064
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, how much time do you need to
4 finish with this witness?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tried to find
6 out how much time I've used. I have used an hour and 46 minutes and I
7 have asked for two hours and a half and I believe that I will be able to
8 finish --
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last portion.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] you will be able to
11 finish? Can you finish that sentence.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should be able to finish
13 tomorrow during the first session.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Brennskag, to have kept you so
15 long. We had some of administrative issues to deal with.
16 Okay. You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the meantime,
18 we managed to regroup, and can we please now have 65 ter document 10158,
19 page 6 in the B/C/S, and for abundance of caution could we have this
20 document under seal.
21 Let us look at it in e-court.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not broadcast to the public.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It seems to me that at the
24 moment, Your Honours, it would be better if it were under seal.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which means not to be broadcast.
Page 9065
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Not to be broadcast. That is
2 correct.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Shin.
4 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours. We would -- we would -- the
5 Prosecution would like to try to assist with this process if we could,
6 but if we had the specific ERN page number in the B/C/S version perhaps
7 we will in other translation packets be able to find the English version.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm being told that there
10 is English version. And the ERN number is 00375079.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment, we don't have anything on the
12 screen.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you get it, Mr. Shin, the ERN number?
14 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours. We believe it would be page 5 on
15 the English, but when we see the documents we'll be in a position to
16 confirm.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, and I think
18 we have the right page. I'm grateful to everyone for their assistance.
19 Q. Sir, this is page number 1 of the document that we have
20 discussed, and, as I said, this is a document dated 18th of July, 1995,
21 an analysis of trace evidence of an explosion caused by a projectile
22 impact, which took place on the 22nd of June, 1995.
23 Can we please now have page 9 in the B/C/S version, ERN 00375082.
24 And I put it to you that, according to the witness -- expert
25 findings, that this was -- can we please look at the previous page in the
Page 9066
1 B/C/S. That this was an improvised device. An improvised device, a
2 Howitzer projectile of 155-millimetre calibre.
3 Can you see that, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, can we look at P993, photograph number 2, and my question is
6 the following: According to your memory -- can we please zoom in on the
7 upper photograph?
8 As far as you can remember, would this be similar to the
9 projectile that you found on the site?
10 A. Yes. First, I have never seen the expert report before today. I
11 have -- I have neither seen or own report since it was made in 1995. I
12 have seen this report with the pictures presented to me here in Hague.
13 And it identify -- it's the report from the Sarajevan police that was
14 investigating at the same time as us, and I recognise these pictures as
15 the same place and the same rest of the projectile that we were
16 investigating.
17 Q. Thank you. Now that you have seen these two documents, in your
18 view, would it be fair to say that this was not a modified air bomb but a
19 modified Howitzer projectile of 155-millimetre calibre?
20 A. I have stated what I remember, and it's from my witness statement
21 in October 2010, page 12, para 42. And that is what I remembered in
22 2010:
23 "The impact was in the tarmac, so the back part of the rocket was
24 standing in the asphalt. We found on-site a tube that penetrated the
25 tarmac with four wings inside the tube I could see the rest of the rocket
Page 9067
1 engine. I estimated that the calibre of the rockets was 126 to 127
2 millimetre. It was clearly a kind of homemade projectile with very
3 simple modifications."
4 Q. And would you say that I was right to say that that was a
5 Howitzer projectile, not an air bomb?
6 A. I have never seen the expert report and the report, of course,
7 had to stand for itself. What I was assumed -- or remember was what I
8 have newly written. So it may be, can be, an improvised bomb made of a
9 Howitzer projectile. But I can't confirm that, no.
10 Q. Why I'm asking you this? Now, can we please look again at your
11 statement, P992, paragraph 44 of your statement, where you say -- 44:
12 "At the spot of the impact, we couldn't decide where the modified
13 air bomb came from."
14 Now I'm asking you this. After you have seen these documents
15 drafted by the police of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina in
16 Sarajevo, would it be correct to say that that was not a modified air
17 bomb?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, I'm not quite sure whether we are
19 making any progress here.
20 Paragraph 42 of this witness's statement explains clearly what he
21 thinks this projectile is. And whether he called them modified air bomb
22 or by another name, it is what he explains in paragraph 42 where he
23 doesn't characterise it as a modified air bomb. He just says:
24 "We found on site a tube that penetrated the tarmac with four
25 wings, and inside the tube I could see the rest of the rocket engines. I
Page 9068
1 estimated that the calibre of rockets was 126 to 127 millimetre. It was
2 clearly a kind of homemade projectile with very simple modifications."
3 That's his description of the projectile. Now whether you call
4 that a modified air bomb or something else, that is the actually
5 description of it. So I'm not quite sure what you are trying to achieve
6 by the question you have just put to the witness [Microphone not
7 activated] I'm sorry.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in this same
9 paragraph, 42, the expert goes onto say:
10 "The people who launched these modified air bombs were launching
11 them in a certain direction without knowing exactly where they would
12 land."
13 All I'm trying to is to elicit an answer from the witness about
14 this.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I understand that. I understand that. And
16 I'm saying even if anybody were to call this projectile a modified air
17 bomb it remains what he explained. It remains to be a 126- to
18 127-millimetre projectile according to his estimate and with four wings.
19 Proceed, Mr. --
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will not ask any
21 further questions about which particular weapon this was. And now I will
22 move to the issue of the direction from which the projectile came.
23 Could we please look at document 10158A, page 2. And, out of an
24 abundance of caution, I would kindly ask this document not to be
25 broadcast as well.
Page 9069
1 Q. Let me ask you this: As far as you can remember, did you arrive
2 on the location after the officials from the court and Sarajevo police
3 had come to the scene?
4 A. I can't remember anything about officials of the court. I
5 remember Sarajevo police and my own team. And as far as I remember, we
6 were at the spot almost at the same time. But that's 18 years ago.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 Can we now have 65 ter 10158, without the A, and we need page 1
9 of the document. 10158, without the letter A. Page 1.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the page you want, Mr. Stojanovic?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 4, Your Honours, in the
12 B/C/S.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And that will be the last question of the day.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand. Page 4 and
15 ERN 375077 is the English page we need. Thank you.
16 Q. Am I right to say that, at that point, you could not agree on the
17 direction from which the projectile had come?
18 A. No. O Team were not in doubt of the direction from where the
19 projectile were coming from.
20 Q. Do you remember whether at that time it was established on the
21 spot that it came from the westerly direction 270 azimuth degrees, as the
22 document that we're looking at claims?
23 A. I can't find -- I don't know this report. But we ...
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under paragraph 4, sir. How the offence was
25 committed. Just read that sentence below that.
Page 9070
1 THE WITNESS: It came in from the west. Azimuth 270 degrees. It
2 landed and exploded in the roadway of Geteova Street next to number 12.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to answer the lawyer's question?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. We agree that it came from the west, as far
5 as I understand.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, we've gone past the time.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Brennskag, I must warn you that you may not
10 speak to anybody between now and tomorrow about the testimony you gave or
11 you still have to give until you are excused from further testifying.
12 You may follow the usher. We'll see you tomorrow morning at 9.30
13 in the morning.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one clarification on the record.
18 Mr. Lukic, with respect to my proposal how to deliver documents to the
19 place where a videolink would take place, that was just a proposal.
20 There's no guarantee that the court over there will be willing to deal
21 with that in that way. Please contact the Registry and make the
22 necessary arrangements, if possible.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We stand adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, the
25 21st of February, 2013, courtroom I, 9.30 in the morning.
Page 9071
1 Court adjourned.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of
4 February, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25