Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9159

 1                           Tuesday, 26 February 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             If there are no preliminaries, then could the witness be -- next

12     witness to be called and that would be ...

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  It's Thorbjorn Overgard, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And as he is being brought in, if I might just

16     put the adjudicated facts on the record.

17             The Prosecution has not offered certain evidence and has redacted

18     the proffered testimony in reliance on adjudicated facts 2531, 2540,

19     2541, and 2858.  And I neglected to say, good morning.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, good morning to you as well, Ms. Hochhauser.

21     That's on the record.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.  Would you please put on your

24     earphones.

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes.


Page 9160

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. Overgard.  Before you give

 2     evidence, the Rules require that you make the solemn declaration.  The

 3     text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make the solemn

 4     declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 6     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  THORBJORN OVERGARD

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, please, be seated, Mr. Overgard.

 9             Mr. Overgard, you'll first be examined by Ms. Hochhauser.

10     Ms. Hochhauser is counsel for the Prosecution.  And you'll find her to

11     your right.

12                           Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

13        Q.   Good morning, Major Overgard.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   Sir, you have previously provided statements to the officer --

16     excuse me, to the Office of the Prosecutor, one of which was signed on 30

17     April 1996 and one on 1 October 1998; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you also testified before this Tribunal in the cases against

20     Dragomir Milosevic, Momcilo Perisic, and Radovan Karadzic; is that

21     correct?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   Have you had the -- have you had the opportunity prior to coming

24     to court today to review selections of the -- of your transcript from the

25     testimony -- your testimony in Dragomir Milosevic?

Page 9161

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.  If I could ask, please, to have 65 ter 28741 on the

 3     monitor.

 4             And, sir, while that is coming up I'm just going to remind you

 5     and for myself as well because we're both speaking in the same language

 6     we have to make an effort to pause between the question and the answer.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now when you reviewed the relevant selections of

 9     testimony, did you find them both accurate and truthful?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And if asked the same questions today as you were then, would you

12     give substantively the same responses?

13        A.   Yes, I would.

14        Q.   And did you have any clarifications or corrections that you

15     wanted to make?

16        A.   No.  That's fine.  I'm fine.

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 28741 into

18     evidence.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28741 receives number P1047,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, if I might read a brief public

25     summary of the witness's written testimony.

Page 9162

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Ms. Hochhauser.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Major Overgard was posted to Sarajevo as a

 3     United Nations Military Observer beginning in late October 1994.  After

 4     an initial posting in an area held by the Bosnian Serb forces, he was

 5     then deployed to Hrasnica within the territory held by the

 6     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which -- where he remained until the

 7     1st of May, 1995.

 8             During his time in Hrasnica, Major Overgard investigated the

 9     death of approximately 30 to 40 civilians as a result of sniping and

10     shelling.  In each instance that he is aware of VRS held territory was

11     identified as the source of fire.  All of the sniping and the majority of

12     the shelling incidents investigated by Major Overgard involved civilian

13     victims.

14             Specifically, Major Overgard investigated the G10 shelling

15     incident of 7 April 1995 in which a modified air bomb hit a residential

16     area in the centre of Hrasnica and killed a female civilian and wounded

17     others.  The investigation in this incident determined that the air bomb

18     was fired from Serb-held territory in Ilidza.

19             Serb forces from Ilidza also regularly shelled and sniped at

20     civilians using the road to Mount Igman or the bridge at Butmir.

21             And, Your Honours, that concludes the summary of the witness's

22     testimony.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

25        Q.   Now, Major Overgard, as you know, the Chamber is fully familiar

Page 9163

 1     with the selection of the previous testimony that's now been entered into

 2     evidence which you have reviewed, so I'm just going to be asking you a

 3     few follow-up questions.

 4             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And can we please have Exhibit P582 which is --

 5     I guess I shouldn't called it an exhibit.  P582, which has been marked

 6     for identification, on the screen.

 7        Q.   And this is the special report from SI 1 entitled:  Large

 8     explosion in Hrasnica on 7 April 1995.  And if we could please turn to

 9     page 2 in the English but remain on 1 in the B/C/S.

10             Sir, do you see your signature on this document on the monitor in

11     front of you?

12        A.   Yes, I do.  It's a MO 839.

13        Q.   And does the -- are you -- excuse me.  Are you familiar with this

14     document and its contents and the investigation that it discusses of the

15     explosion in Hrasnica on 7 April 1995?

16        A.   Yes, I am.

17        Q.   Now, on page 2 in English where we are it reads, "The UNMOs" --

18     it's the -- it's what appears to be -- it's a handwritten document but

19     it -- it's what appears to be the second paragraph:

20              "The UNMOs heard the WPN coming," which, and you can correct me

21     if I'm wrong, I would read as weapon, "... coming.  It landed

22     approximately," it says says "approx," but I'll read that as

23     approximately, "200 metres from the team Loc," which, again, correct me

24     if I'm wrong, I read as location, "but did not see it in flight."

25             Did you personally see or hear this weapon coming in and can you

Page 9164

 1     describe for the Chamber what you saw or heard?

 2        A.   We were -- I was situated in living-room of our accommodation

 3     when we heard it coming in.  It was just like big aircraft coming.  We

 4     were -- it was unusual sound so we were on our way to the floor to lay

 5     down when it exploded.  We didn't see anything, just heard it.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And if we could turn for a moment to page 3 in

 7     the English in this document and 2 in the B/C/S.

 8        Q.   I'll just ask you to take a moment -- the B/C/S doesn't show the

 9     diagram.  It just translates.  But if you could take a moment and look at

10     the diagram as we see it on the right-hand side of your screen.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Can you tell us -- and this is marked as Annex A.  Can you tell

13     us is this -- is this diagram based on your own observations?

14        A.   Yes, it is.  It was made by Captain Calum Gunn, the team leader

15     at the time.

16        Q.   And were you present when it was -- when it was made?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we can turn for a moment to page 4 in the

19     English and 3 in the B/C/S.

20        Q.   And this is marked as Annex B of the document.  Can you tell us

21     who drew these diagrams and what the source of the information was to the

22     best of your recollection?

23        A.   The source is witnesses from Mount Igman.  I can only say

24     witnesses.  I cannot point if they were civilians or BiH or whatever.

25     But this was how they discharged weapon, looked, and also where it came

Page 9165

 1     from -- truck on Ilidza side beside the factory building over there.

 2        Q.   And there's a -- you've described the weapon and a truck.  Can

 3     you tell us, there's a third -- there's third drawing to the right of

 4     what appears to be the weapon that's marked as the aircraft bomb.  Can

 5     you tell us what that represents?

 6        A.   It's -- it's the bomb seen from behind and we had rockets around

 7     it for a small roundings there.  It's rockets and a bomb in the middle.

 8             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we could turn, please, to page 5 in the

 9     English and I'm going to ask if we can just go -- show pages 5, 6, 7, and

10     8 in a sequence so that the witness can see them.  The corresponding

11     translation in B/C/S would be pages 6 through 9.  And these pages 5

12     through 8 in the English are marked as Annex C.  So if we could have the

13     next page, please.  And the following.

14        Q.   The information and diagrams contained in pages 5 through 8 of

15     this document, can you tell us, please, are these based on your own

16     personal observations or some other source?

17        A.   No.  These are shrapnels found by the team members and they are

18     measured by the team.  So that's why we can have the 55 millimetres and

19     35 millimetres, and so on.

20        Q.   And did you -- did you see these parts?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And when you say "the team," can be more specific?

23        A.   It's the UNMO team in Hrasnica, Sierra India 1.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we could turn, please, to page 9 in the

25     English in e-court.  The corresponding translation is 10 in the B/C/S.

Page 9166

 1        Q.   Now specifically as to this -- this page, page 10, do you recall

 2     this page being a part of this report?

 3        A.   Yes.  I recall this page, and -- but I don't remember the item

 4     itself.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So just to be clear, you don't remember seeing -- actually

 6     seeing the items that were depicted but you do recall that these

 7     diagrams were [overlapping speakers]

 8        A.   The diagram is okay.  I have seen it, and obviously I have seen

 9     also the part, but I can't remember it today.

10        Q.   Was this page also prepared by members of your team?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And, finally, if we can turn to the last page of

13     the exhibit as it is in e-court which would be English page 10 and also

14     B/C/S page 10.

15        Q.   This appears to be the same document as we saw at page 4 but with

16     the addition of a to/from heard on the upper left-hand corner of the

17     page.  Have you this piece of paper before, with this to/from header

18     [Overlapping speakers]

19        A.   No, that one I can't recall.

20        Q.   And are you familiar with the name of the person on top, the

21     Captain Hansen?  Do you know that person?

22        A.   I can't remember him from Sarajevo, no.  But so how he comes into

23     this picture, I don't know.

24        Q.   Now -- so with the exception of this addition of the header on

25     that last page, does this document accurately reflect the information

Page 9167

 1     that you received and your own observations of the explosion in Hrasnica

 2     on 7 April 1995?

 3        A.   Yes, it's the same case as we had on page 2 so.

 4        Q.   The whole document I'm asking about --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   -- the whole report?

 7        A.   Yeah, the whole report is --

 8             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I would offer P582 which was

 9     previously marked for identification into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

11             Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Number is already assigned, Your Honours.  It is

13     MFI, so it just becomes exhibit.  And it's P582, as I understand it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And therefore is now admitted.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we could please have 65 ter 15364 on the

18     monitor.

19        Q.   And this is the 7 April 1995 VRS Main Staff situation report

20     signed by Manojlo Milovanovic.  And I'll ask for page 4 in the English,

21     please, and page 3 in the B/C/S.  And if I could draw your attention more

22     towards the bottom of the page in both documents, point number 3 which

23     says, "In the SRK/Sarajevo-Romanija Corps area of responsibility ..."

24             And I'll draw your attention to the beginning of that first

25     paragraph that reads:

Page 9168

 1             "In the 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade area of

 2     responsibility, at 0600 hours, the enemy opened fire on the Famos

 3     factory" -- I'm sorry, "the enemy opened very heavy fire on the Famos,"

 4     F-a-m-o-s, "factory and the neighbourhoods of" -- I apologise because I'm

 5     going to mispronounce these, "Grlica," G-r-l-i-c-a, and

 6     V-o-j-k-o-v--i-c-i.  And then it goes on, "from the direction of Gradina,

 7     Igman and Lasica."

 8             And then if we could have the next page, please.  I'm sorry,

 9     page 5 in the English but it remains 3 in the B/C/S.

10             And this is under (b) situation in the corps and I'll draw your

11     attention to where it reads:

12             "The enemy activity was adequately responded to whereby an air

13     bomb, 250 kg was launched on the centre of Hrasnica."

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should be the next page in the B/C/S.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Oh, I'm sorry.  So it would be page 4 in the

16     B/C/S.

17             Now, Major, can you tell us whether, on 7 April 1995 prior to

18     your hearing the air bomb explosion, can you tell us whether you observed

19     any fire being directed from the centre of Hrasnica towards the Famos

20     factory or any other location.

21        A.   We did not see anything unusual that morning.  It was a normal

22     morning.  Always some firing in the area of the Famos factory but nothing

23     unusual this morning.  It was what we called a quiet morning.

24        Q.   And when you say there was always some firing in the area of the

25     Famos factory I'm asking you specifically about fire directed from the

Page 9169

 1     centre of Hrasnica [overlapping speakers]

 2        A.   [Indiscernible]

 3        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] sorry, from the centre of Hrasnica out

 4     toward the Famos factory?

 5        A.   We did not observe anything like that, that morning.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the Prosecutor kindly turn the microphone

 7     towards her, please.  Thank you.

 8             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 15364 at

 9     this time.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

11             Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 15364 receives number P1048,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P1048 is admitted.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we could please see 65 ter 10144 on the

16     screen.  Oh, I misspoke.  It's 10114.  Thank you.  And as it is coming

17     up, this is the forensic on-site report of 7 April 1995 drafted by the

18     forensics and KDZ anti-terrorism department.

19        Q.   Major, have you had the opportunity to see this document prior to

20     today?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  And had the opportunity to review its contents?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now does the information in this report comport with the

25     information that you and your team gathered regarding this incident?


Page 9170

 1        A.   Yes, it does.

 2        Q.   And with the -- and with -- in its description of the parts of

 3     the bomb that were found, does it comport with what you saw?

 4        A.   Yes, it does.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I would tender 65 ter 10114.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10114 receives number P1049,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P1049 is admitted.

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, that concludes my examination of

12     this witness.  Thank you very much.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.

14             Is the Defence ready to start its cross-examination,

15     Mr. Stojanovic?

16             Mr. Overgard, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

17     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

18             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Thank you.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look again at P582

22     in e-court.  Let us look at the page 1 of the English version of this

23     document.  In the statement and in this document as well, it reads, inter

24     alia:

25             "At 0840 hours on the 8th of April there was a major explosion in

Page 9171

 1     Hrasnica village."

 2             Then it goes on to say --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the 7th of April.  At least that's what it

 4     reads both in English and in the translation.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

 7             Then it goes on to say:

 8             "Due to the ban on movement, it was not possible, to date, to

 9     conduct a full investigation."

10        Q.   Can you please explain to the Court what this "ban on movement"

11     means?

12        A.   We were told by the commander of the 4th Motorised Brigade, I

13     don't remember his name anymore, but to go back to our accommodation.  We

14     did so, and when we arrived there, there were three soldiers at the gate

15     to the accommodation.  We went in, and when we tried to go out again, we

16     were not allowed to -- to leave accommodation for doing investigation or

17     visit the civilian police.  We were not allowed to leave accommodation

18     until late that evening.  I think it was around 7.00, 8.00 in the

19     evening, we were allowed to move.  We went then back to -- to the site

20     just to have a look but the darkness was coming so there was not too much

21     that we could do at the site at that moment.

22        Q.   How long after you were informed about the explosion did you

23     arrive at the scene?  What do you think?

24        A.   It is a bit difficult today to say, but half an hour, something

25     like that.  Because we went first to the civilian police station.  There

Page 9172

 1     was nobody.  And then we went directly to -- to the site where the

 2     explosion occurred.

 3        Q.   And can you remember how long you stayed at the scene before you

 4     were told to leave by the members of the 4th Motorised Brigade?

 5        A.   I can't say anymore accurate, but it was not very long period.

 6     Maximum 15 minutes; 10, 15 minutes.

 7        Q.   Would I be correct if I were to say that you actually arrived

 8     before the investigation crew of the criminal police of the

 9     Security Services Centre Sarajevo?

10        A.   Yes.  We were -- as we recall the first one into the scene after

11     the -- after the explosion.

12        Q.   And were you able to get any information about why they would not

13     allow you to do your job?

14        A.   No, we were not given any reason otherwise, but we were not given

15     any reason why we had to stay in accommodation.

16        Q.   Throughout that whole day, you were not permitted to leave the

17     place of your accommodation at all; is that correct?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   Did you inform your superiors at any point about the problem that

20     you had with the command of the 4th Motorised Brigade that day?

21        A.   Yes, we did.  We informed our headquarter in Sarajevo.

22        Q.   Did they intervene?  Did they send anyone to get in touch with

23     you?

24        A.   They came patrol from the French forces at the airport to visit

25     us and to -- just to -- to ask us about what was -- had happened in

Page 9173

 1     Hrasnica.  They, too, were detained in our accommodation, were not

 2     allowed to leave.  They -- as I recall it, they were given the permission

 3     after a while -- I don't know how -- anymore remember how long they

 4     stayed.  But they stayed for a while and then we were allowed to go back

 5     to the airport later on that -- in the afternoon.  But that was strictly

 6     from accommodation and back to airport area.

 7        Q.   That day, at 1900 hours, when you again went to the scene, did

 8     you note any changes compared to the situation in the morning when you

 9     first arrived at the scene?

10        A.   There were obviously people had been around on -- on -- in the --

11     on the site there, but -- and the -- one body I saw inside the damaged

12     house was removed.  Also that female that died was removed.  So I

13     can't -- I cannot remember -- seeing first time either, but obviously she

14     was there in -- in the vicinity.  So -- and as the darkness was coming,

15     7.00 in the evening, we were not able to see too much, so we were very

16     quick or --or, we didn't stay for a long period on -- on the site.  We

17     had to wait until the morning when the daylight came back.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that in the morning you did see one

19     body.  I would like you to tell the Trial Chamber what it was that you

20     saw.

21        A.   Yes, I saw two legs and with uniform trousers on and boots coming

22     out of a pile of bricks.  The legs were not moving.  But at -- when I

23     discovered that, that was the same moment as the commander came and

24     called us to come to him and -- ordered us back to accommodation, so

25     nothing more for me to do with that.  So ...

Page 9174

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  And did you get the impression that this

 2     was a -- the body of a uniformed soldier?

 3        A.   Yes, it was uniformed trousers and military boots.

 4        Q.   You did not see the woman, the body of the woman, about which you

 5     received information later that she was killed or was a victim.

 6        A.   I cannot remember seeing her at the site, no.  The information

 7     about her came later on, and we did not see her before -- the day after,

 8     at the morgue, as I remember it today.

 9        Q.   You were told to leave the scene at the point when you found that

10     body; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And I will complete those questions with the following question:

13     Was the body in the building that was demolished, or was it outside of

14     the building that was knocked down at the time?

15        A.   I'm not sure I understand the question right.  Because the body,

16     I could see just see the legs.  I couldn't see anything else.  The house

17     was demolished.  It was falling down in bricks, a pile of bricks inside

18     the house from the roofs -- or from the walls, of course.  So ... this is

19     what I can say.  The area around the site was very much damaged; damaged

20     roofs and walls, windows, and so on.  But that house especially that had

21     been closest to the impact or the explosion was totally demolished.

22        Q.   Do you remember that the building, the school building or --

23     there was a school building next to the place where the bomb exploded?

24        A.   Yeah, what was inside each of these houses, I cannot remember

25     today.

Page 9175

 1        Q.   I would now like to direct your attention to P582 again that you

 2     have in front of you, where, among other things, you say in this

 3     paragraph 2 in the English version, among other things, you say:

 4             "The weapon was supposedly fired from a truck in the area of

 5     Ilidza at grid BP 817 564."

 6             And then you say:

 7             "The firing point was not observed by UNMOs."

 8             When you make a note of this kind in your report, what do you

 9     mean when you say "the firing point was not observed"?

10        A.   The -- by that, we are honest to say that this was not

11     UNMO-confirmed observation.  This has been told us by witnesses, civilian

12     witnesses, or other sources.

13        Q.   When you say that the firing point was not observed by UNMOs, do

14     you only think here of your own team, or do you mean other teams as well,

15     from that area?

16        A.   Yes, other UNMO teams or UNMOs in the vicinity.  If they could

17     tell us, we will say it is UNMO confirmed, and we rely on the

18     observation; otherwise we just say we have the information but it is not

19     UNMO confirmed.

20        Q.   Are you able to recall which day?  Was it on the 7th at any point

21     in time?  In the evening?  Or the 15 minutes in the morning?  Or on the

22     8th that you received information, either from the army or from the

23     civilian, that the bomb came from Ilidza?

24        A.   Exactly what -- when we received that information, I cannot

25     recall today.

Page 9176

 1        Q.   When you look at this document, are you able to say when it was

 2     sent out to your superiors?

 3        A.   It was sent a couple of days after the incident.  So if it was

 4     the 9th or 8th or 9th or -- I'm not quite sure because it took some time

 5     to negotiate, first of all, to have investigation, to see these shrapnels

 6     found and to measure them, and be -- the team, four of us, worked with

 7     this the following days.  So exactly when it was sent I will not say.

 8     But maybe 9th in the evening or -- or even 10th in the evening, with --

 9     because we sent reports daily, but this report that was daily sitreps,

10     this report was sent as a special report.  I think it was delivered to

11     the headquarter, Sarajevo, 9th or 10th.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could I specifically draw your

13     attention to the B/C/S version of the date, time, group where there seems

14     to be a transcription or -- I couldn't call it translation error, but in

15     the English, I see 101310 B, whereas in the B/C/S version, I see

16     10131 A3, which seems to be different.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I also noted that.

18     Thank you.  And this is precisely why I put this question.  Because from

19     what I understand from the B/C/S version, it seems that it could be the

20     3rd of April, 1995.  This is what causing confusion.  If I may ask the

21     witness perhaps to explain.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But under those circumstances why would you

23     rely on the B/C/S version if there's a clear transcription error?  But

24     then why not ask the witness could have you a look at the date, time,

25     group and could you tell us whether it was -- on day it was sent.  That

Page 9177

 1     is easier than to make all kind of excursions around what apparently is

 2     the real question.

 3             Could you have a look at the date, time, group, and could you

 4     tell us what that means in terms of this report being drafted or being

 5     sent?

 6             THE WITNESS:  This has been drafted the 10th of April at 1300

 7     hours, or 1310 Bravo time.  So it was delivered right after that.  I

 8     think in -- it is the date, time, group of -- put on when we delivered

 9     it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Stojanovic, this is the very practically and concrete way of

12     approaching this matter which seems to be caused not by any unclarity in

13     the original but, rather, by the B/C/S version not being -- not

14     accurately reflecting what the original says.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Would it be correct to say, in reading the document, that UNMO

18     did not establish where the firing point was of said modified shell and

19     that all information about the direction of the incoming shell was

20     received from the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina or from some other

21     witnesses at the scene?

22        A.   Exactly which sources gave us this information about the firing

23     point, I'm not able to remember clearly today.  But it is -- as we say,

24     it is not UNMO confirmed.  It came from that place.  But this whole

25     investigation supports the fact that it came from that direction, due to

Page 9178

 1     the fact that the windows along the route it had before exploding.  The

 2     device exploded, was -- the windows were damaged -- damaged.  And so it

 3     clearly was a -- you can say some traces of the -- where it came from.

 4        Q.   According to your best recollection, are you able to tell us if

 5     the shell exploded as it hit the ground or it exploded before impact?

 6        A.   As I remember it today, it has to be -- there was no crater, so

 7     it has -- must have exploded in the air, just over the house; that is,

 8     when you have an explosion on the ground, you will have a crater.  There

 9     was no crater.  It was just demolished house and roofs, windows.

10             So I would say today that it exploded in the air.

11        Q.   And would you agree with me that it is more difficult for any

12     expert to determine the incoming direction of a shell if there is no

13     marking on the ground?

14        A.   It may be a bit more difficult, but it is not impossible due to

15     the fact that it came -- this device obviously came very low.  So it --

16     the traces along the route it followed before explosion was clear.

17        Q.   But you did not see the trajectory yourself.  Am I correct?

18        A.   That is correct.  As I explained earlier, I was in the

19     living-room with no windows that way, that direction.

20        Q.   Do you remember the testimony by a soldier of the B and H army at

21     an Igman observation post who asserted that he had seen a projectile in

22     flight and who said that shortly before impact, the bomb opened up and

23     that a parachute appeared at the tail?

24        A.   I remember there was some talk about a parachute, but I can't

25     remember that statement from -- from -- where it came from.  And we did

Page 9179

 1     not find any remains of any parachute, as I remember, so ...

 2             I don't remember that one.  Sorry.

 3        Q.   If you permit me, I want to ask you this:  Do you recall giving a

 4     statement to the Prosecution on the 8th of September, 1995, and then on

 5     the 29th of April and the 30th of April, 1996, again regarding these

 6     events?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D819 in

 9     e-court, please.

10        Q.   Sir, I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 11; page 3

11     of the B/C/S version.  And page 3, one paragraph but last in the English

12     version.  In the statement that I have just referred to and which you

13     confirmed giving, you said, among other things:

14             "A member of an Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina observation post

15     on Igman claimed that he had seen the bomb while it was flying, and he

16     said that shortly before the bomb landed, it opened and a parachute came

17     out of the back."

18             Does this refresh your memory --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   -- because this was immediately after the event?  Are you also

21     able to tell us what was exactly going on here?  What were you told and

22     when?

23        A.   I don't remember that one - I'm sorry about that - because it is

24     was some years ago.  So from this detail, I don't quite clearly remember.

25        Q.   Thank you.  While we're on this page, I just wanted to ask you to

Page 9180

 1     look at the middle of this page where it reads amongst other things --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note we don't have the

 3     reference.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] "We entered the house which was

 5     hit by the bomb."

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters do not have the reference.

 7     Mr. Stojanovic, could you be more precise.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we are

 9     able to see it.  In the English version this is the third paragraph from

10     the top.  In the B/C/S version it's the fourth paragraph.  If I permit

11     me, Your Honours, I just wanted to draw the witness's attention to this.

12        Q.   It states:

13             "We went inside the house where the bomb had landed.  It was as

14     good as impossible to determine the direction of fire."

15             And then you go on to say, sir:

16             "The only technical trace to determine the direction was that in

17     the probable direction of fire all windows were broken ..."

18             My question is this:  Why did you say then, and you're saying

19     more or less the same thing now, that it was almost -- or practically

20     impossible to determine the direction of fire?

21        A.   This -- as I said then, the only thing we had to go on was the

22     trace with the broken windows in that -- along that street, leading

23     directly against the confrontation line and Ilidza.  That's the only

24     thing I can say.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I will finish with this question:  In view of what

Page 9181

 1     you found at the scene the following day, would the testimony of the

 2     B and H army soldier be correct in any way that he had seen a bomb which

 3     shortly before impact opened and that a parachute appeared at the tail?

 4        A.   Well, to say if he is correct or not cannot be confirmed.  But we

 5     have taken this into the papers afterwards, just to review and let other

 6     know what he had seen.

 7             So other sources also, as I remember, supported his observations,

 8     but I don't recall all the details about that.  So what was given in the

 9     statement in 1995, I think, is -- or 1996, is -- is -- is correct.  Has

10     to be.  Because the memory, we can submit, is now 18 years ago.  So I

11     can't give any more details about the incident than given in the written

12     statement here, no.

13        Q.   This statement, did it also -- or did you take into account also

14     this statement about the -- the -- the shell that was fired?

15        A.   I'm not understanding the questions.  I'm not mixing, because

16     this statement is given long after we did the team statement, so there's

17     a difference in time, and then this is done in a questionnaire by a

18     policeman visiting me afterwards, and we -- I answered -- answered him

19     upon -- from my few notes I had left, so ...

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could -- Mr. Stojanovic, in your question, were you

21     referring to the information provided by a BiH soldier, or were you

22     referring to the statement as put on paper given by this witness?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me rephrase the question.

24        Q.   In your statement --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If you just first answer my question, then that

Page 9182

 1     might clarify already quite a few things.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Since this

 3     witness said in his statement that the ABH soldier had claimed to have

 4     seen a flying bomb, all I wanted to hear from this witness was whether,

 5     when they took position with regard about the firing point of that bomb,

 6     did he take this testimony into account as well.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So the reference was to the BiH soldier and not to

 8     the statement of this witness.

 9             Did you, when you were interviewed, did you -- and when you made

10     the report at the time, did you include that information that you had

11     received from a BiH soldier?

12             THE WITNESS:  I don't remember if the BiH soldier came -- or that

13     information came to us as -- when we provided the -- or before we

14     provided the team report or if it came to me afterwards.  I cannot

15     remember that.  But if this -- I don't -- if I understand the question

16     right, if I've -- are considering the BiH soldier's statement, we have no

17     statement from him, as I know.  It's just an information given by a

18     soldier or other sources exactly which sources, but this led to the

19     conclusions we have in writing.

20             And also, as I say, they are not conclusions.  They are just

21     giving facts.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, you earlier said "last question," but a few

24     others followed.

25             Did you mean by, I'll -- did you mean to say that this is the end

Page 9183

 1     of your cross-examination or it was the last question before the break?

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I have a few

 3     more documents.  Therefore, I believe I will be finished during the next

 4     session.  Thank you.  And if I'm not mistaken, I think this is the time

 5     for the break.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It was unclear from where you said "I will

 7     finish with this question."

 8             We will take a break, Witness, and we resume in approximately

 9     20 minutes from now.  Would you please be so kind as to follow the usher.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Can the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15             Meanwhile, the use the opportunity for the following, and it's

16     about the testimony of Erin Gallagher:  The Chamber notes, and we hereby

17     also put it on the record, that as suggested by informal correspondence

18     sent to the Chamber on the 22nd of February, 2013, the parties have come

19     to an agreement whereby the direct examination of Witness Erin Gallagher,

20     will commence following the testimony of Witness RM513 towards the end of

21     this week and will be limited to material related to maps.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  This is further confirmed by the Prosecution's list

24     of exhibits to be used by the witness sent on the 25th of February, which

25     includes only exhibits for use with the witness with respect to the map

Page 9184

 1     materials in question.

 2             And the remainder of her direct examination shall continue on

 3     another date, as will the cross-examination.

 4             My first question to the witness is whether what I said correctly

 5     reflects the agreed -- the parties.  Yes.  Let me check.

 6             Yes, whether that reflect -- this correctly reflects the agreed

 7     position of the parties.

 8             MR. GROOME:  That does, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I -- and my apologies to you, Witness,

10     for one more second, if you would allow me.  The Chamber also notes that

11     in a motion which was filed by the Prosecution on the

12     22nd of February concerning this witness, that the Prosecution seeks

13     leave to amend Ms. Gallagher's 65 ter summary.  In light of the Chamber's

14     guidance concerning such amendments, which are to be found at transcript

15     pages 1637 up to 1639, the Chamber considers this formal request to be

16     moot.

17             Mr. Overgard, it's not very polite to continue speaking when you

18     enter the courtroom.  Apologies for that.

19             Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his cross-examination.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have P3 in

21     e-court, page 4.  Can we please zoom in on the left-hand bottom corner.

22     Thank you.

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, we have a map here in front of us provided by the

24     Prosecution which is an exhibit in this case.  It shows the location of

25     Hrasnica and Ilidza.

Page 9185

 1             Can you please try, if it is possible, to use this map, but we

 2     also have another map showing Hrasnica in more detail if you're not able

 3     to handle this map, to indicate the place where you and your observation

 4     post was in April of 1995.  Is this a suitable map for you to do that?

 5        A.   Yeah, I think so.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I would kindly then ask the usher to give you a pen

 7     so that you can mark the location where you were with your observation

 8     post.

 9        A.   Okay.  If I'm right, I'm -- this map I haven't seen for years, or

10     too much on.  It's not a detailed.  But we were located in the area which

11     I'm now -- now blue colour.  I believe --

12        Q.   [No interpretation]

13        A.   I believe in the foot of Igman, in the first houses when you come

14     down the hill-side.  So it's more ... I'm not sure on this map.  I cannot

15     say exactly.  This pen also -- so somewhere -- somewhere here in that

16     area.  But I can't say exactly.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hochhauser.

18             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'm sorry.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You're also on your feet.  I also missed any

20     marking, if there is any marking.

21             Now I see is it -- I see a different colour blue at the bottom

22     part of the -- just below the word "Hrasnica."

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see two little dots.  Could you -- could you

25     add a large O to that or OP for observation post.

Page 9186

 1             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  It comes -- okay.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's at least now we have the -- more or

 3     less the centre of Hrasnica.

 4             Can you see it, Ms. Hochhauser?

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.  Thank you, Judge.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   Can you please now indicated to the best of your recollection the

 9     point of impact of that projectile?  And put a circle around it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, in order to have any benefit of

11     that, we need a more detailed map, because, otherwise, we get -- I do not

12     know whether we have a more detailed map.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we can use

14     the map in P3 on page 36.  And it's page 31 in the hard copy.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That might be a better idea, although, there,

16     perhaps part of the overview is lost.  But you said it was page -- now,

17     first, if this one is --

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I please --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If this map should first be saved.  But before

20     we assign a number to it perhaps we -- we focus, first of all, a hard

21     copy page 31 in P3.

22             Madam Registrar, could this one be saved at least, whatever

23     number to be assigned to it temporarily.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Page number 4, as marked by the witness of

25     Exhibit P3, receives number D241, Your Honours.

Page 9187

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.  You said it

 2     was --

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- 4.  This could not be possibly be page 4 of P3.

 5     It looks more as if it is ...

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 4 in e-court,

 7     Your Honours.  And page 1 in hard copy.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is page 4 in e-court, I must apologise for the

10     comments.  Yes, it's page 1 in the hard copy.  That's clear.  Let's

11     perhaps work with the other page number you referred to, Mr. Stojanovic.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  Can we

13     please have page 36 in e-court, if I'm not mistaken.

14             Thank you.

15        Q.   Here we have a map of the Hrasnica area.  If you can assist us

16     with this map and tell us whether you can find your bearings by looking

17     at this map right now.

18        A.   Hmm ... I'm not quite familiar with this map.  If the G10 spot in

19     the middle there is the impact site, then our location was somewhere

20     here.  I'm not sure where the so-called Famos factory is located here.

21     So it's too long a period since I've been there and seen maps, so I'm not

22     sure anymore of -- of the map.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Then could you please put OP beneath the circle so

24     that, in the future, we know what this refers to.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 9188

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please now tell us if you remember that, at

 2     one point, you observed a mortar unit of the ABH in the area called

 3     Kovaci in Hrasnica?

 4        A.   Yes.  We once saw mortars here.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us if you intervened and requested these mortars of

 6     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina to be removed from that location.

 7        A.   Yes, we did.  We discovered them when coming down the so-called

 8     convoy road, down to Hrasnica, and we reported them to our headquarters.

 9     And when we -- after a while, the same afternoon, went back to see if

10     they were there still.  They were removed.  They were not there anymore.

11        Q.   Is it possible to see in this map the approximate position where

12     you observed the ABH mortar unit?

13        A.   I'm not sure where the convoy road, what is the convoy road here,

14     coming down from the mountain.  There are more roads than I was quite

15     aware of was there.  This was not roads we used.  But ... if ... no, I

16     cannot, because I'm not quite aware where the convoy road comes down to

17     the village or to the houses, because it was just before we -- on the end

18     of our -- or the starting point for the convoy road just before that,

19     behind two houses, [indiscernible] blocks, we saw them.  And -- I'm not

20     quite sure on a map anymore, I'm sorry.

21        Q.   How long before the landing of that projectile in April 1995 did

22     you caution and warn the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina that they should

23     remove the mortars?

24        A.   First of all, we didn't do anything else but report the mortars

25     to our headquarters.  Then we went out to see if they still were there

Page 9189

 1     but they were removed, so someone has -- had -- had warned them or told

 2     them to remove them.

 3             The dates is no longer clear, but I believe it was -- yeah, I

 4     can't say in days, how many days before but that was a period before.

 5     Because at the moment it was me and one Argentinian UNMO, and he -- I

 6     believe he left in that period, so I can't say in number of days anymore.

 7     I haven't reviewed that report, because that was, of course, in our daily

 8     sitrep to headquarters in the afternoon.

 9        Q.   You had been asked in the previous cases about the location of

10     the headquarters of the ...

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the name of the

12     unit.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the name of the unit,

14     Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   To your recollection, where was the Command of the

17     4th Motorised Brigade of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18        A.   We had one headquarter very close to the confrontation line.  In

19     which building I don't remember exactly anymore, but it was -- yeah, of

20     course, when I say "close to the confrontation lines," against Ilidza, it

21     is in the houses just before that, so exactly which house I don't

22     remember anymore.  Sorry, I cannot speculate.

23        Q.   Can you identify on this map in front of you the approximate

24     location of the 4th Motorised Brigade Command HQ.

25        A.   Yeah, I will try.  It's -- it's -- that was the blocks where

Page 9190

 1     the -- has to be in the area here.  Around that, but that's it

 2     approximately.  I can't say anything exact.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you just mark "4 MB" above that.

 4        A.   Try it like that.

 5        Q.   Thank you for your assistance.  I think this will suffice.

 6             In view of what you discussed before, will you agree with me that

 7     the Command of the 4th Motorised Brigade was in the residential area of

 8     Hrasnica in a civilian building?

 9        A.   If there were any civilians living in the building.  But, of

10     course, it was in the village, yes.

11        Q.   To the best of your recollection, what kind of building that was,

12     where the Command was.

13        A.   It was, you can say, a -- a block with apartments, which had

14     earlier been apartments but now used for military.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you also tell us do you remember if there were

16     any lower-ranking units, such as battalions, that were stationed in

17     Hrasnica?

18        A.   There was one more headquarters, yes, more in the direction of

19     the Famos factory at the other end of Hrasnica.  What -- if that was a

20     battalion or brigade headquarter, I don't remember.  I believe it was a

21     battalion headquarter.  But, again, I believe today that it was the one.

22        Q.   Does that exist in this map; and can you mark the location?

23        A.   I cannot mark it on the map anymore.

24        Q.   Can you also please mark the police station building where you

25     went on that morning of the 7th of April.

Page 9191

 1        A.   Yeah, exactly again, as I -- but in this area here.  I -- I don't

 2     remember exactly the building because this -- I can't remember the map

 3     anymore.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  This facility to the right of the mark that you just

 5     put and to the north from the alleged point of impact, do you recall that

 6     this facility was actually a school?

 7        A.   There was school in that area.  Exactly, again, which building on

 8     a map, I cannot point it.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

10     can we now look at two clips from two films --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you -- would you like to have this one saved

12     and do you want to tender that?

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  Thank you.

14     I apologise, we need this to be saved and to be given a number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, page 36 of document P3 as marked by

16     the witness receives number D242, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D242 is admitted into evidence.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, may I take it that the previously

20     marked map, that we don't need that any further?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I will use

22     it once again with the next document and the area of Kovaci that is shown

23     on the map where the mortars were.  Thank you.

24             Now, for the record, I would just like toe say that this is

25     1D817.  There will be no audio accompanying this footage, and it lasts

Page 9192

 1     one minute and three seconds.

 2             After that, I would kindly ask the witness to comment and to see

 3     if that managed to refresh his memory.

 4             Thank you.  Can we now look at the footage.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we please now

 7     look at the next clip, which is 1D816.  This is also a segment of

 8     50 seconds, and we shall then comment on it together.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now, for the record,

11     I would like to say that these clips come from the footage entitled:  The

12     4th Motorised Brigade of Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the road of war.

13     And this footage was taken in 1992.

14        Q.   Now, my question is:  When you saw this first clip, do you

15     remember this being a gym in the Aleksa Santic school and that the second

16     footage was the inspection of the 4th Motorised Brigade in the courtyard

17     of the school on Aleksa Santic Street.  Can you recognise any of the

18     locations?

19             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I would object to that question on

20     a couple of grounds.  But, first off, given that these clips are both

21     from 1992, a time-period when this witness not in Sarajevo, I think we

22     should break down what he -- whether he recognises just the location from

23     the first clip, which was the first question.  The second question was

24     asking whether he recognised what was happening in the clip which he

25     couldn't possibly have.

Page 9193

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's take it one by one.  Let's first -- whether

 2     the witness was there in 1995 or 1992 if the building has not change, you

 3     may recognise.  I can recognise quite some buildings that are already

 4     there for 300 years.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I agree.  That's why I ask that it be broken

 6     down.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The first question was the gym you saw.  You don't

 8     have to confirm that it was a gym because we can see that all.  Do you

 9     recognise the gym as being the gym in the school as Mr. Stojanovic asked

10     you?

11             THE WITNESS:  No, I cannot.  I once had the opportunity to be in

12     that gym, but I could not recognise it from that, from this clip.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But there is no reason to assume it was not the gym,

14     is there?

15             THE WITNESS:  No, it was a gym; but where, I don't know.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you do not exclude for the possibility that

17     it is the gym as suggested to you.

18             THE WITNESS:  No, is not.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Please proceed.  Next question, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   The second clip shows a review in front of the school facility,

23     and you can see those houses behind the training area.

24             So I'm asking you whether that would make you remember that that

25     is the school in Hrasnica the way you remember it in 1995.

Page 9194

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, let's take it step by step.

 2             First, when you saw this yard with people lined up, did you

 3     recognise that spot where that was.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I did not, no.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You did not.

 6             Therefore, the next question is moot.  But you have no reason to

 7     believe that it's not the place as suggested by Mr. Stojanovic.

 8             THE WITNESS:  It can be.  I just haven't seen from that angle

 9     maybe.  That's an easy --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Now I would like to ask you whether during the time you spent in

13     the area of Igman and Hrasnica, you had any information that the school

14     was used for military purposes.

15        A.   I cannot say that I was.  I was not familiar with that at all.

16        Q.   Very well.  Now, I would like to ask you to tell us, you

17     mentioned the blue road.  You mentioned the road over Mount Igman.  In

18     1994 and 1995, who held that area of Igman, in the military sense?

19        A.   It was the BiH forces.  So -- because we inspected and used that

20     road also to patrol on Mount Igman area, from the Sierra India team in

21     Hrasnica.

22        Q.   Did you receive information about whether there were any civilian

23     facilities there from the villages on the outskirts, outside of Hrasnica,

24     on the slopes of Igman?

25        A.   Depends what civilian facilities you're talking or meaning.

Page 9195

 1     There were -- I don't understand the question right.  I believe the --

 2     there were civilian houses on Igman, and there were also -- but the most

 3     of them we visited were abandoned, except for one farm where there was a

 4     military headquarter.  That one also in a period was a kind of OP or

 5     place where we could stay overnight in our own small cabin, when we were

 6     patrolling on Igman.  Just the position of that on maps and so on, I

 7     cannot recall today, but there -- yeah, I cannot answer the question more

 8     exact.

 9        Q.   I would like you to tell us if you remember if these were

10     villages that were inhabited until the war with Serb inhabitants or

11     Muslim inhabitants.

12        A.   I cannot remember which village had which population, or if they

13     were Serb or Muslim.  I'm not able to do that today, no.

14        Q.   In patrolling the Igman and the slopes of Igman, did you see

15     artillery weapons deployed in this area by the Muslim army?

16        A.   I cannot remember that we saw artillery up there, no.

17        Q.   Can you please tell us how familiar you are with the exclusion

18     zone of 20 kilometres, heavy weapons exclusion zone, around Sarajevo?

19        A.   Yes, there was an exclusion zone where these weapons should not

20     be.  I did not see artillery, so more than 80, 88 millimetres, inside

21     Hrasnica area or on Mount Igman.  I saw these pieces when coming down, as

22     we mentioned before here.  This might have been 120 millimetres, but as

23     we didn't see them close, I cannot state that.

24        Q.   I'm asking you this because I would again like to see in

25     electronic -- in e-court, document 53, page 4, which we had the

Page 9196

 1     opportunity to see a little bit earlier.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is now Exhibit D241.  D241.

 3     Could we please zoom in on the lower left-hand corner of this map?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We need some patience first.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we zoom in on

 6     this part where it says "Hrasnica."  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Witness, can I now please ask you to indicate on the map, if you

 8     see it, the area named Kovaci and the place where you saw these mortars

 9     that you concluded were 120-millimetre mortars.

10        A.   Yeah, I saw it before we zoomed too much here.  Okay.  Convoy

11     road comes down there, yeah.

12        Q.   [No interpretation]

13        A.   Yeah, it has to be somewhere in this area here.

14        Q.   Can you mark that with the letters MB, "minobacaci," mortars.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would just like to ask you to tell us if

17     you would agree with me, to save a little bit of time, to say that in

18     relation to Hrasnica Ilidza lies to the north-west.  You can see this on

19     the map.  And if the projectile came from Ilidza, would then that be the

20     north-west direction?

21        A.   Yeah, north, north-west.  Yeah.  Yes, I will agree on that.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I would like

24     to mark and tender now this document.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, we have now the -- the second version of

Page 9197

 1     this document.  We started with the document as marked before, which was

 2     D241, which was MFI'd.  I think -- let me see now.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  For an unknown reason, the marking disappeared.

 5     Could we invite the witness to again mark, and now the marking to be

 6     preserved, the position of the mortars.  And, again, indicate that this

 7     was the MB.

 8             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that this one, which now contains the

10     markings of both of the observation post and of the mortar position is

11     the one you'd like to tender?

12             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document -- now D241 MFI'd, as marked by the

14     witness, receives number D243, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And D243 --

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I'd just like to point out I don't

17     have an objection to the document being entered but not for -- I would

18     like to point out that these are 1992 confrontation lines.  So to the

19     extent that we're not --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that an objection to the admission, or is that a

21     comment in relation to weight to be given to this document in evidence?

22             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  It's not an objection to admission.  It's --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then it will be admitted.  And then you may

24     make any further observations.

25             Madam Registrar, I see that now the second marking is gone again.

Page 9198

 1     But it's now saved.  Yeah, it's now saved.

 2             Then ...

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the sake of the record in the transcript it

 4     always mays MB.  In the -- in the map the marking was MD.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So that should be the same.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And D243 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Now, Mr. Stojanovic, am I right in -- did the witness not mark on

 9     the other map, the -- the observation post as well and is there any risk

10     that we have contradictory evidence here, the one being very vague in

11     Hrasnica, whereas, I think the witness marked the -- let me see.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we briefly have a look at D242.  Now, the

14     marking of the observation post here is not even near to where it was on

15     the previous map, which can be explained by the scale of the previous

16     map.

17             I suggest that the parties sit together and that they create a

18     map in which -- agree on where the witness marked the observation post,

19     the other markings, including the headquarters of the

20     4th Mountain [sic] Brigade, and where the mortars were and to make that

21     one document so that we do not have the contradicting evidence and that

22     we then strike this one.

23             If the parties could engage in discussions to do that.

24             Ms. Hochhauser.

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour --

Page 9199

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Motorised Brigade, yes.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  -- I don't have any problem obviously agreeing

 3     with Mr. Stojanovic where the witness has marked.  But I think that the

 4     bigger problem perhaps is that the witness has said a number of times

 5     that these are real approximations because he doesn't feel comfortable

 6     being able to mark on the map with any of these locations.  And so I

 7     wouldn't be able to agree that those, in fact, were the locations but

 8     just that where he made marks.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't invite you to agree with that.

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I just wanted to get rid of two maps with markings

12     which are inconsistent and to see what was the most precise one.  If you

13     could engage in such an exercise that would be appreciated.

14             Now, one other question.  Ms. Hochhauser were you familiar with

15     the footage shown by Mr. Stojanovic; that is, the -- the gym and the

16     school-yard?

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  No, I'm not familiar with it.  From what I could

18     see it came from a YouTube clip.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  No, I haven't seen it before.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because there is a suggestion that this was

22     the school and the school-yard in Hrasnica.  And at least on the yard

23     which was shown, some military activity was ongoing.  To that extent, it

24     could be exculpatory, and I would very much encourage the parties to see

25     whether they can agree, even if it was 1992, which only would suggest

Page 9200

 1     that in 1992 such activity took place, but whether they could agree on

 2     what is shown, whether these really are the locations as suggested by

 3     Mr. Stojanovic.  And I think there's an active obligation for the

 4     Prosecution to explore potential exculpatory materials as well.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  We will, of course, do that, Your Honour.  It

 6     would be helpful if Mr. Stojanovic could provide any additional

 7     information he has about the provenance of the video other than that it's

 8     on -- other than YouTube.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Most important is to have a look at the school and

10     at the houses around the school.  That seems to be the -- unless there

11     are two schools exactly the same in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but I would

12     be surprised by that.  But, of course, the source to be further explored

13     might help as well.

14             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   I would like to ask you before we move to the next document to

17     tell me this:  The way you marked the position of the B and H army mortar

18     units, would that be within the 20-kilometre exclusion zone, in your

19     opinion, or not.

20        A.   Of course, within.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at P1049 together, please.  And can

22     we look at the first paragraph of this document, please, where, in the

23     report on the forensic on-site investigation drafted on the

24     7th of April, 1995, it is noted that most probably a modified aircraft

25     bomb landed and that the projectile came from the south-west, the Ilidza

Page 9201

 1     sector.  Would you agree with me in view of what we saw on the map a

 2     little bit before that this assertion from the on-scene investigation

 3     does not correspond to the actual direction where Ilidza is?

 4        A.   There is something, if I don't understand it, but -- south-west

 5     or -- or west.  Well, it's hard for me to tell now to agree on anything

 6     about that.  As I say -- I'm a bit unfamiliar with the maps at the

 7     moment.  I cannot place the team location, the OP location, and --

 8     correctly because the map is not how I remember it.  But, it is as I

 9     say [Overlapping speakers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

11             THE WITNESS:  Not agree on that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me cut this short.

13             The parties are invited to consider whether Ilidza, at least the

14     village of Ilidza - doesn't say anything more - but whether Ilidza is

15     situated in relation to the spot marked as G10 on hard copy page 31 of

16     P3, whether that is found to the north of north-west of that spot.

17             It seems to be obvious, but otherwise the Chamber even might make

18     such findings.  But if the parties could agree on it, that would be

19     preferable.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.    Thank you for this, Witness.  Now I would like to move to a

23     topic that I would also need to question you about.  I just need to put a

24     few questions to you.

25             That first day, on the 7th of April, you did not conduct any

Page 9202

 1     investigation together with the official authorities of

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?

 3        A.   Not on the 7th.

 4        Q.   When did you personally practically conduct that investigation?

 5        A.   We had the small, I should say, orientation tour in the evening

 6     on the 7th, and the investigation was later on the day after, when we

 7     had, I believe -- yeah, on the 8th that would be in the afternoon.  And

 8     then exactly when we had this shrapnel pieces, and so on, some from the

 9     second day, some the third day, on the 9th, so which one I cannot say

10     today.  Details there is -- is no longer in my memory.

11             So the first investigation with the BiH authorities was on the

12     9th in the afternoon, as I remember it.

13        Q.   On the 7th, from morning until some time -- until 7.00 p.m., you

14     were in the area of your observation post under guard by the

15     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it's a

19     good time for a break, and then I can move to some other documents.

20             I am in your hands.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said you would expected to finish in the

22     next session, but that apparently has changed now.

23             How much time would you still need after the break?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  I think that I would need

25     some 15 to 20 minutes, Your Honours.

Page 9203

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             We will take a break but only after the witness has left the

 3     courtroom.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at quarter past 12.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we please look

13     at 1D818 in e-court, please.

14             Thank you.

15        Q.   In view of the last answers you gave me, Mr. Overgard, about the

16     time when you came to the scene, I just wanted you to clarify something

17     for me.

18             In front of us we see an official report of the

19     7th of April, 1995, drafted by the public security station in Ilidza, the

20     crime squad department of the criminal police department which, among

21     other things, states, that the information about the explosion was

22     received on the same day at 0900 hours from the duty team at the Hrasnica

23     police station.

24             And then it goes onto say that on the same day, they went to the

25     scene led by the people who are mentioned there.

Page 9204

 1             Now this something that I'm confused about.  Mention should also

 2     be made of the fact that the following UN Military Observers housed in

 3     Hrasnica were also present:  Captain Gunn from Great Britain and

 4     Captain Overgard from Norway.  And they say that the on-site

 5     investigation commenced on the same day at 1500 hours.

 6             So what I would like to ask you is this:  Is this information

 7     accurate, or is it what you said, that the investigation was actually

 8     carried out without your being present there, on the 7th?

 9        A.   I remember it now because at that stage when we were there on --

10     in the afternoon, the two of us, yeah, I remember we were there now.  We

11     were present.  So we were there, but there was not too much investigation

12     done.  It was just orientation to see the house, to see the demolition

13     done by the bomb.  It was not any analysis of what have happened.  Just

14     to get the picture, the big picture, what -- what was damaged here and so

15     on.  From that visit on the site, we started to draw the picture which we

16     had earlier here which house had damaged roofs and which one was -- what

17     damages were done to the houses around.  That was in the afternoon, yes.

18     I remember it now.

19        Q.   Does that mean that the part of your statement where you say that

20     you were at your observation post for that whole day, the 7th of April,

21     under guard of three members of the B and H army, is not correct?

22        A.   Yeah, as I remember now, this -- we had a short trip just before

23     dinner.  It was a short visit to the site.  Exactly we what did at the

24     site, I don't remember.  But as I can recall, it was just to -- to get a

25     picture what was damaged because we didn't have the time in the morning

Page 9205

 1     to do that.  After that, we had to go back to accommodation again.  And I

 2     don't remember exactly the details around that.

 3        Q.   Did the members of the B and H army bring you to the scene, or

 4     did you yourself leave your location?

 5        A.   I think -- I think the crime inspector, Hakija, came.  Yeah, he

 6     came.  And took us over to -- to the site.

 7        Q.   During the investigation on that first day, the 7th of April, do

 8     you remember if you found fragments of the projectile that hit in the

 9     morning?

10        A.   We found some -- some small piece, yes, on that -- when

11     Captain Gunn and me were there.  We found -- it was just in the entrance

12     to the house, to the -- at the gate to the house, we found something, a

13     small shrapnel.  But that's the only thing I can remember.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek clarification of one of the previous

15     answers.

16             You were asked whether members of the BiH army brought you to the

17     scene.  You said, "I think the crime inspector, Hakija ..."

18             Was he a crime inspector within the army or ...

19             THE WITNESS:  No, he was a kind of inspector from the civilian

20     police in Hrasnica.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So the answer was not that someone of the army but

22     someone of the civilian police took [Overlapping speakers] ...

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I believe it was him.  As I can recall it was

24     him that came to -- to our place and -- and -- and we had -- was allowed

25     to follow him.

Page 9206

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   Does that mean that this police inspector could ask the soldiers

 4     who had practically been keeping you from leaving your compound to let

 5     you out and go to the scene?

 6        A.   For sure, he had given -- been given the permission to take us

 7     out from -- from the commander.

 8        Q.   When you say "the commander," who are you referring to?

 9        A.   Commander of the 4th Brigade.  I don't remember his name at the

10     moment.

11        Q.   If I told you that that was Fikret Prevljak, does that ring a

12     bell?

13        A.   Yes.  It does, yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  One more question relating to this situation:  How is

15     it possible that after three testimonies you have completely forgotten

16     that you were on the site on that first day?

17        A.   I've forgot about that afternoon visit I have.  But that's --

18     that's the way it is.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that when you visited the scene on

20     the first day, did you notice anyone clearing up the debris and the whole

21     area where the projectile landed?

22        A.   No, I cannot.

23        Q.   The reason I'm asking you this is that I would like to look at

24     page 2 of this report.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 2 in both versions,

Page 9207

 1     Your Honour.

 2        Q.   In the middle paragraph it says, inter alia, in the middle of

 3     this paragraph, "Detailed clearing of the debris revealed" --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot find the reference.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- the interpreters have difficulties finding

 6     the part you're reading.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's paragraph 4,

 8     the longest one, middle portion.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that where it reads, "After a thorough clean-up,

10     another" --

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  In the middle.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So it reads:

16             "After a thorough clean-up of the debris, another part of the

17     rocket engine and three propellant charge cases were found, and on the

18     roof of the adjacent house, two parts of the fuse were found, most

19     probably from an aircraft bomb."

20        Q.   Does this refresh your memory?  Do you recall seeing this when

21     you were there, on that first day, the 7th of April?

22        A.   That is details I -- I can't say that I remember clearly now.

23        Q.   And I will finish with this document, which reads in its

24     penultimate paragraph:

25             "UN Military Observers present on the scene agreed with the

Page 9208

 1     opinion of the investigating team regarding the projectile type and the

 2     direction from where it was fired."

 3             My question is:  Do you recall that at any point in time, on that

 4     first day, there was any discussion about this issue?

 5        A.   No, I'm sorry I cannot confirm that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I suggest --

 8     may I tender, in fact, 1D818.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

10             Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D818 receives number D244,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D244 is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Overgard, just one more question relating to this on-site

16     investigation.

17             Do you remember whether, on that first day or the day after,

18     there was also the investigating judge of the court in Sarajevo with you?

19        A.   Yes.  She was present, if that was -- I believe it was the second

20     day we saw her first time.  On the 8th, as I remember it, but, again, as

21     I remember.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now look at the same document, page 3 of the

23     English, and page 4 in B/C/S.

24             This, Mr. Overgard, is a document that bears the title:  On-site

25     investigation report, drafted by lower court II in Sarajevo, Ilidza

Page 9209

 1     department, in 1995, on the 7th of April.  And it says the investigating

 2     judge was present, Mrs. Jadranka Kadric, and this report notes that you,

 3     UN Military Observers, were present there, together with the

 4     investigating judge on that 7th of the April.

 5             Would this document refresh your memory that this on-site

 6     investigation took place on the 7th, not the 8th of April, when the

 7     investigating judge was there?

 8        A.   I have no reason to say that this report is wrong, so, for sure,

 9     it -- it is correct, then it was on the 7th she was there first time.

10     That has to be the afternoon then, the afternoon trip, from 1500 to 1600.

11             Sorry, but -- but this report, I believe it's -- it's okay.

12     There's no reason to believe that it is wrong.

13        Q.   Then let me ask you, following that answer, would you change that

14     part of the statement where you said about your activities on the 8th on

15     the site?

16        A.   Well, then I -- I have to do that, I believe, and say that she

17     was present already, the 7th in the afternoon.  I don't remember it, so

18     exact first time she was present, it was chaos.  A lot of things

19     happened.  We were detained and we were negotiate with the -- with the

20     commander and then also inform headquarters and so on.  We had the French

21     there, so we had a lot of things happening.  So -- maybe I mix up things

22     a bit, yes.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I observe that in the original in

24     B/C/S, there may be written the name of Jadranka Kadric, but it is nearly

25     illegible.  The name is missing in the English translation.  Just for the

Page 9210

 1     sake of the record.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.  Thank you for that

 3     suggestion.  I would then ask to see the next page in B/C/S, where we can

 4     see it better.  And let me ask for the record to focus on the lower part

 5     where we see the name of the judge, the signature, and the stamp of the

 6     investigation court.  I think, here, we can see a little better that it

 7     is, indeed, Jasminka Kadric, investigative judge.

 8             Thank you, Your Honour, for your assistance.

 9        Q.   Now, Witness, let me ask you one more thing on this subject and

10     then I'll finish with it.  Does it remain in your memory that in the

11     cases in which you testify before, you also stood by your statement that

12     you were present at the on-site investigation with the rest of the team

13     and the investigating judge on the 8th of April, not as you stated today.

14             Do you remember your prior testimony in different cases?

15        A.   I can remember that I have given statements, but the details in

16     the statement, sorry, there's a long time since I was in court last time,

17     so I've gone through them but not in detail.  So there is no reason for

18     me to say that the statements are wrong, because -- or I will say that

19     the statement, the written things, are probably right.  Just my memory

20     today is not the best.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I completely understand.  I just wanted to remove all

22     doubt because that statement is part of the record in the Milosevic case,

23     and I wanted to make sure which corrections you would make now.

24             Now, you mentioned the name of Fikret Prevljak, Commander of the

25     4th Motorised Brigade, and since that name has been mentioned in this

Page 9211

 1     courtroom several times before, I'd like to ask you:  Do you know, as a

 2     former Military Observer in that area, that, in that segment of the

 3     territory controlled by the BH Army, there was the entrance and the exit

 4     from the tunnel under the airport runway in Sarajevo?

 5        A.   This tunnel, they started to dig it just before I left the area.

 6     So I think I have no knowledge of it being used while I still was there.

 7     There was activity in the area.  We tried to investigate what it was, but

 8     it -- I didn't know exactly or for sure what -- what it was going to be

 9     before, I think, it -- yeah, the day I left or some days after.  So this

10     tunnel was not active when I was in Hrasnica.

11        Q.   You -- did you try to conduct an investigation?  Were you

12     prevented from doing so?

13        A.   We were not allowed to stop at that place.  The -- we had

14     different explanations of what they were doing, but no one mentioned the

15     tunnel, of course.  But we -- we had thoughts about what it could lead

16     to, what -- what the activity was, but we had no evidence.

17        Q.   Did you have occasion to see that soil is being shipped from that

18     area?

19        A.   Yeah, we saw.  Because it was close to the road we used when we

20     were on our way to -- to -- into Sarajevo and over the airport.  So we --

21     we saw activity and that they were digging, but we're not allowed to stop

22     and to -- to have a closer look at it.  So, at that time, we didn't

23     know -- did not know what they were constructing.

24        Q.   Could you tell us which unit denied you access to that area?

25     Which unit of the BH Army?

Page 9212

 1        A.   No, I -- I cannot recall which one it was.

 2        Q.   In April 1995, do you remember that it was a period of the

 3     beginning of a major BH Army offensive aimed at lifting the blockade of

 4     Sarajevo?

 5        A.   There was something, but I don't -- I don't remember the -- the

 6     details about that at the moment.

 7        Q.   Do you recollect at all that it was a time of intensive fighting,

 8     intensive combat linked with the BH army's attempt to break out of

 9     Sarajevo?

10        A.   There was a lot of activity, a lot of -- a lot of things

11     happening in April 1995, yes.  In Hrasnica especially there was a lot of

12     shooting [Realtime transcript read in error "looting"], and we reported

13     what we saw and what we could investigate.  But there -- the whole big

14     picture we did not get before late -- or later on, what was -- what --

15     what was happening in total.  That's -- I don't remember that we had any

16     facts reported what -- at -- major event was going on.  So on that, I

17     cannot answer you affirmatively.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Overgard, did you say, "In Hrasnica

19     especially there was a lot of shooting," or a lot of "looting"?

20             THE WITNESS:  Shooting especially.  Looting was not the problem

21     in Hrasnica.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   When you say shooting, do you mean shooting from both sides, both

25     warring parties?

Page 9213

 1        A.   They were firing from both sides.  They were fire exchanging

 2     so -- but we were not allowed to the confrontation line too much, so

 3     occasionally we were on the Mount Igman road and the blue road up to the

 4     position where the French had their check-point.  French forces.  And we

 5     could observe exchange of fire in the front line area, and that was

 6     reported, what we saw.  But that it was a major break-out going on, we

 7     were not aware, I believe, as I remember.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Overgard.  Those would be all the questions that I

 9     had for you.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure

11     whether I've already tendered this, and that is part of the last document

12     that was admitted.  I mean the document involving the investigating

13     judge, the last one I used.  It's a document already in evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the last document shown on the

15     screen.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That was 1D818, admitted as D244, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, no need to take any further action.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any plans with the

21     video-clips?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Maybe you

23     would accept my proposal for it to be MFI'd and then my colleague and I

24     would, in keeping with instructions, view it all, I mean, the entire

25     footage from which we took those two clips regarding this facility.


Page 9214

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The entire footage, the Chamber is not aware of.

 2     The Chamber has been shown only two portions of that.  I suggest that we

 3     reserve a number for -- and that at this moment just the two, to the

 4     extent that it is possible, Madam Registrar, but if they are uploaded

 5     separately it might be a problem.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  First video with 65 ter number 1D817 receives

 7     number D245.

 8             And second video with the number 1D816 receives number D246,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D245 and D246 are marked for identification.  And

11     the parties are invited to provide further information and, to the extent

12     possible, agree on location.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I invite you to put further questions to the

15     witness, Ms. Hochhauser, I have one matter I'd like to raise with the

16     witness.

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You explained to us, Witness, that the broken

19     windows allowed you to, although not with great precision, but at least

20     allowed you to establish more or less the direction from where the

21     projectile came.

22             Could you explain to us how -- how -- how broken windows could

23     assist you in establishing the direction of the origin of fire?

24        A.   What caused the -- the -- the windows to -- to -- to break, has

25     to be speed, the -- the air pressure, when it passed.  I cannot explain

Page 9215

 1     it better.

 2             As I say, when we were inside the house and we felt that

 3     something was coming our direction, we were on our way to the floor.  So

 4     it was a heavy sound.  So it has to be the air pressure, and the sound of

 5     that took the windows all along the street directly against the -- the

 6     confrontation line.

 7             So that's the -- the best explanation I can give.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now let me try to understand that.

 9             From the sketch which we find at page 3 - and perhaps we could

10     have a look at it - of P582.  Could we have that on the screen, please.

11             Now, you said the -- it was established that -- or at least it

12     was the impression that the projectile had come from north-west.

13             Now, we see a broken window also in southwesterly direction.  I

14     see a window just on this picture as it is shown at present.  It's to the

15     right of the point of impact, main impact.

16             How do you explain that?

17        A.   Because it's close to the impact area or the area where the

18     explosion occurred.  Then you will have a more -- all direction pressure,

19     air pressure going out.  So that is understandable.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21        A.   That -- but if you follow the -- the street, then against

22     confrontation line and again you will see more windows that were gone,

23     whatever, not mentioned in this report.  That's a pity, but --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I found them also in northerly direction.

25     I find them in northwesterly direction.  I -- what made you -- I mean, I

Page 9216

 1     do not see any broken window, well, let's say, to the south-east, even

 2     where it is close to the point of impact.  Did you not find any broken

 3     windows there?

 4        A.   I cannot remember.  But I don't think so.  If -- if it had been

 5     anything a normal in that direction that we found, we would have

 6     mentioned it.  But as I can recall now, it's -- it's not -- it was not

 7     damages or -- or -- in -- in a northerly direction.

 8             So this is what we saw at that side, at that time.  I cannot find

 9     new things today.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  To say the least, I would be surprised that if

11     windows are broken at a distance of close to 100 metres, and I'm looking

12     to the two Ws which I find to the -- below and to the right of the

13     crossing --

14        A.   Mm-hm.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  To find broken windows there and not to find them

16     100 metres north with such an explosion causing considerable damage to

17     the roofs of houses, I would be surprised if all the windows in the

18     houses remaining would still have been intact.

19        A.   Yes.  I understand your question, but I can't give you a good

20     answer.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And also I do not see why the building which is just

22     a little bit up and to the left of what you called the old school, how

23     that would have been affected by a trajectory which is, as you said, more

24     north-west.

25        A.   Mm-hm.

Page 9217

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just wondering what the -- how you could

 2     distinguish between windows broken through the explosion and windows

 3     broken through the air pressure caused by the projectile.

 4        A.   Yeah.  That's -- that's a good question.  But I'm still -- as I

 5     say, I cannot -- not say anything.  But we followed the road and the

 6     windows were broken further against the confrontation line.  But that's

 7     the only answer I can give, and for us it was obvious that it had come

 8     from that direction.  I cannot say anything else today.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you followed them in the direction of the

10     confrontation line.  Do you mean beyond this -- this sketch or what is

11     found on the sketch?

12        A.   Yeah.  Yeah.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Beyond the sketch.

14        A.   We have to go all the way to -- further down the street and then

15     it will -- there are more windows broken but they were not mentioned here

16     because we were concentrating on the nearby area of the impact.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you also check whether, more in this map,

18     more to the upper part, whether there are broken window there as well?

19        A.   Yeah, we checked around and there was no more windows outside.

20     It was in from -- in the assumpted direction, the windows were broken.

21     And we did not mention them too much.  That's -- may be a fault at that

22     time, but -- so I cannot give you a good answer.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

24             Ms. Hochhauser, any further questions for the witness?

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, Your Honour.


Page 9218

 1                           Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

 2        Q.   Just to follow up, please, on what we were just discussing about

 3     the blown out windows.  Can you tell us, Major, what exactly was the

 4     process that you undertook when you were talking about following this to

 5     the -- following -- when you're describing your observations up to the

 6     confrontation line.  Can you tell us what exactly it was that you did and

 7     what you observed.

 8        A.   We partly walked, partly drove along the road and we just -- okay

 9     windows gone, windows broken, blown in, not out, so -- and, okay, that

10     was the procedure.

11        Q.   And for approximately what distance did you do that toward --

12     from the -- from the location of the explosion to the confrontation line

13     toward Ilidza?

14        A.   Yes, I cannot say today how far we went, but we went pretty close

15     up to the confrontation line, yes, as long as we could, I believe.  As I

16     can remember, we went all the way to the confrontation line found where

17     it started to be broken windows, and so on.  But we did not mention that

18     in the -- in the report as we can see today, but ...

19        Q.   And the -- the observations that you made on that path that you

20     walked and rode, the observations of the houses and the windows in

21     particular, was that different in nature of what you saw on the other

22     streets in that area or any other directions?

23        A.   Oh, yes, yes.  This was -- first of all, we were patrolling in

24     the area and driving these roads daily, so this was new ones that had

25     happened that morning, not -- not the day before or earlier.

Page 9219

 1        Q.   And finally on this topic, can you tell us anything about the --

 2     the relative height of the -- of the bomb as you heard it coming in?  Did

 3     you make any observations --

 4        A.   No, we did not know what height it was, how high it was above the

 5     house when it exploded.  We have no indications or things to -- to -- to

 6     say anything about that.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to go back to today's transcript at page 48,

 8     line 2.  You were asked by Mr. Stojanovic:  How is it possible that after

 9     three testimonies you have completely forgotten that you were on the site

10     on that first day.

11             And I'd like to, if we could, call up 65 ter D819.  I'm sorry,

12     1D819, which is the statement that was referred to at times in

13     cross-examination, I believe; your 1995 statement.

14             And I'd like to, if we can, turn to the top of page 3 in the

15     English, and I hope I'm correct that it's the top of page 4 in the B/C/S.

16             It says there, if I can draw your attention to it, Major, you say

17     that -- you say about the evening of 7 April 1995 that after being told

18     to go back to your accommodations on 7 April:

19             "We managed to negotiate our way out at about 7.00 that night.

20     Gunn and me went back on sites that same evening."

21        A.   Mm-hm.

22        Q.   And then I'd like to read to you from the Karadzic -- the

23     testimony of your -- the transcript much your testimony in the Karadzic

24     trial at transcript 10034, beginning at line 18, where you were asked

25     this question and answer:

Page 9220

 1             "May I draw your attention to page 3 of this same document where

 2     you say that he did not want to debate anything with you.  He turned you

 3     back and then in the next paragraph you say that you somehow managed to

 4     negotiate a permission to come to the scene again around 7.00 p.m."

 5             And you answered:

 6             "Yes, I believe he was there.  But the 7.00 p.m. then we -- I

 7     don't remember -- but actually I did.  We were there in the afternoon but

 8     we found that we had to take further investigation the next morning.  And

 9     the next morning we were also not allowed out of the house, as I remember

10     it now."

11             Does that -- there's additional testimony, but does that refresh

12     your recollection as to the fact that you have in fact testified in past

13     testimony that you returned to the scene on April 7th?

14        A.   Yeah.  The problem I have to remember if it was 1500 or 7.00 in

15     the evening.  I remember clearly it was 7.00 in the evening because it

16     was beginning to be dark.

17        Q.   But, sir, you've testified to that fact before that you returned

18     to the scene on the day of the explosion.

19        A.   yeah.

20        Q.   Major, are you -- I'd like to turn to the question for a moment

21     of the markings that you made on the maps today.  Are you able to provide

22     reliable information about the specific locations of buildings or

23     headquarters using the maps D242 or D241, which are the maps that you

24     marked today?

25        A.   I'm afraid not.  I'm not.

Page 9221

 1        Q.   Okay.  And so it's fair to say that those markings cannot be

 2     relied upon to judge distance, for example, or precise location?

 3        A.   That's correct.  I don't remember the locations so good anymore

 4     that I can put them exact.

 5        Q.   On a map?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Do you recall today the approximate distances from your UNMO

 8     location to the explosion -- to the location of the explosion on

 9     7 April 1995, if you recall?

10        A.   That house was 200 metres away.

11        Q.   And do you recall the approximate distance from your UNMO

12     location to the BiH 4th Motorised Brigade command that you spoke about?

13        A.   As I remember, approximately between 900, 1.000 metres --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we say, you earlier said your markings are

15     such that you could not rely upon them for distances.

16             What you're doing now is you're asking about distances in

17     relation to headquarters where the witness said, I was unable to locate

18     it clearly on a map.

19             So I'm a bit confused about whether you want to rely on the

20     recollection of the witness for establishing distances or ...

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Well, Your Honour, I think the ability to place

22     it precisely on a map is different than somebody's recollection of

23     approximately the distances to where they -- someplace they visited from

24     some place they were every day.  I can say that this -- that -- if he --

25     that -- if -- sorry.  Sorry.  That the witness has said that it's not --

Page 9222

 1     his marking are not reliable, and I'm asking him now if he can reliably

 2     give his recollection of the approximate distance.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But if you have a distance and you have a map,

 4     you're able to locate on that map exactly where it is, isn't it?

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I would suggest not.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If you know which street to go.  If you say it's

 7     800 metres, this street, then you can just plot that on a map.  But let's

 8     hear what the witness says, but I'm slightly confused.  But let's hear

 9     whether the witness -- and also on what basis he has a recollection of

10     the distance between his observation post and the headquarters of the

11     4th Motorised Brigade.

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

13        Q.   Sir, if we can take that last question first.

14             Did you -- on what -- did you have the opportunity to ever visit

15     this brigade command?

16        A.   Yes.  I was there, and -- on several occasions during my stay.

17     There -- why I can give a distance from our accommodation to the spot --

18     or to the place they had the headquarter and where the explosion is what

19     I remember from earlier statements.  And also when making the picture in

20     my head from our location to the different places, I can assume where --

21     how -- how far it is.  But I cannot give the exact position anymore on

22     the map.

23        Q.   Let me ask you this, Major Overgard:  The locations that

24     you've -- excuse me, the distances to these locations that are expressed

25     in your prior testimony that we've seen that's now in evidence, the


Page 9223

 1     92 ter testimony, do you -- can you affirm that -- that those are the --

 2     that -- those are reliable estimations to the best of your recollection?

 3        A.   The distances is the best I can give and -- but as I say to place

 4     things directly on a map on -- today it's very difficult for me.  But the

 5     distances still using the -- what is left of the mind, is better because

 6     I can remember how it looked like when you are looking out the window

 7     what -- what houses looked like, and so on.  So pictures are better than

 8     maps in the mind.  In my mind and ...

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, based on the -- the information

11     that's already contained in the 92 ter testimony, on that basis I'll

12     conclude my examination.  So I have no further questions for this

13     witness.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15                           Further Questioned by the Court:

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I still have a few follow-up questions.  Could we

17     again have -- first of all, if you say looking out of the window, were

18     you talking about your accommodation?

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you see from your accommodation where

21     these headquarters were.

22        A.   We can exact -- not exactly see the entrance but we can see the

23     area from -- we used -- there was a window in the roof on the bathroom in

24     that accommodation, and from there, we also used -- we also used that

25     position as an OP, observation post, several times during our stay.  So

Page 9224

 1     we were used to find how far away buildings and happenings were from that

 2     area.  So ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So even when you could not see the entrance, you

 4     could see the building.

 5        A.   Yeah, could see.  Estimate where the building was.  I don't

 6     remember if I saw the roof of it, but we knew the last building we saw

 7     that, from there, it is only few metres to the headquarters.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I'd like to take you back again to P582.

 9             Could that be shown on the screen.  And could we slightly zoom

10     in.  Not too much, but ... could we zoom in a bit.  Little bit more.

11     Little bit more.  And a little bit more.

12             Could you indicate on -- on this sketch which road you said you

13     saw more broken windows?

14        A.   Yes.  If --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that to the bottom, to the left, to the right?

16     Upwards?

17        A.   I believe if we see the sketch like I see it now, it's upwards.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It's upwards.

19        A.   Yeah.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That means from the cross-roads in the direction of

21     what you call the IMP and the car; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, could we zoom out.  A bit more.

24             Would you agree with me that on this sketch, that is south-east

25     rather than north-west?


Page 9225

 1        A.   Hmm.  Yeah, you're right.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

 3             Have the questions by the Bench or by the re-examination, have

 4     they caused any need for further questions?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

 6     only one question that stems from the questions asked by my learned

 7     friend, the Prosecutor.

 8             Can we have a look at 1D819.  We need page 3 in both versions.

 9                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, can you please look at the second

11     paragraph of this statement of yours.  And in the B/C/S, it's

12     paragraph 3.  If I understand correctly you gave this statement in

13     September 1995, which is five months after the on-site investigation.

14             You said there as well that on the following day:

15             "Experts came from Sarajevo.  In the morning, we were first not

16     allowed to leave our house, so we could only go on-site after lunch.  We

17     conducted the investigation together with the BH police."

18             Now, if we look at the statement that you gave five months after

19     your on-site investigation, do you still maintain that this part of your

20     statement is incorrect and that all of this happened on the day that this

21     projectile landed?

22        A.   This is more like I remember it, as we started.  This

23     investigation 1500, 1600, was something coming up, and -- of course, in

24     something -- I don't think I was -- I was -- this was me writing it.

25             So I believe and we have to stick with this one, because this is


Page 9226

 1     how I remember it.  This -- this 15 to 1600 on the 7th is just stood

 2     there, and -- yes, we were there, but we mixed it and I mixed it together

 3     because we were not allowed to go to the scene before -- in the afternoon

 4     when the dark was coming.  That's why we were there only a short while.

 5             This is a little bit confusing also for me, because this document

 6     just briefly went through, so no details.  So but this document is the

 7     one I mean is correct, the one saying that we were allowed at 1500.  I

 8     just was there, as I remember it, the judge was there in the morning.  So

 9     this is all, again, it's been mixed, so ... I'm -- I'm not sure anymore.

10     I need to -- more time to -- to -- to recollect all this -- this -- this

11     day, two days.

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Since there seems -- the Judges among themselves

16     would like to verify exactly the direction.

17             Could we have a look at P582 again.

18                           Further Questioned by the Court:

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you, and I just repeat now what I said to

20     see whether -- because common understanding of the evidence is important

21     for a Chamber.  I asked you in which direction you saw the more broken

22     windows.  Up, left, right, or down.

23             And you said up.  Which means -- and then I said from the

24     cross-roads in the correction of IMP and car.  Therefore, that's not to

25     the left, not to the right, not downwards but up.

Page 9227

 1        A.   Then I was wrong.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I then put it to you that that is southeasterly

 3     direction, rather than north-west.

 4             Let me just verify again whether this is common understanding of

 5     your testimony among myself and the colleagues.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to be sure, when you said, I saw it in that

 8     street upwards, that is further upwards where no buildings are further

 9     depicted.  That is how I understood your testimony.

10        A.   Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That is -- well, let's say --

12        A.   I was wrong.  [Overlapping speakers] ... not marking here.  I say

13     I was wrong.  Yeah, you got me there.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to be quite sure, when you say that you saw

18     more broken windows up in this road further up, upwards, in southeasterly

19     direction is that also where your accommodation was.

20        A.   First of all, that is -- I just found that I was -- I said wrong.

21     It should be downwards.  Because if I'm right now the -- our

22     accommodation should be in the right upper corner of this drawing.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  As we see it now.  You say there was your

24     accommodation --

25        A.   So if I understand this drawing right now, I have to take a

Page 9228

 1     position in our accommodation, and if that is up in a right-hand corner,

 2     then we should -- I should go downwards to the confrontation line, if

 3     that is right [overlapping speakers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you mark for me where your accommodation was,

 5     looking at this map.

 6        A.   Yeah.  If we say [Overlapping speakers] ... I believe --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... we'll ask you to -- so

 8     carefully consider where the location of the old school is.

 9        A.   That one is there.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  What is north.  And could you --

11        A.   North we have here in the mark.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but could it not be zoomed in again and again.

13     Could we zoom out.  Yes.

14             Is there any possibility that you could mark approximately where

15     this -- your accommodation was?  And please --

16        A.   In that direction, if I'm right.  Oh, sorry.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We see that are you now --

18        A.   I'm a bit confused now.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would it assist you if, for example, you would

20     be shown a -- a Google Earth or a Google Maps printout?  Would you be

21     better able to orient yourself in relation to where your accommodation

22     was.

23        A.   I hope so, yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then perhaps we should try to achieve that over the

25     break and make at various scales a Google Maps impressions so as to

Page 9229

 1     better enable you to tell us where your accommodation was.

 2             Well, this document as now marked by the witness, should be at

 3     least MFI'd.

 4             Madam Registrar the number would be ...

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number C4.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Stojanovic, would you share the property

 7     of this -- this map, marked map with the Chamber, then we would make it a

 8     D exhibit.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honours.  I have

10     no problem with that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll give it a D number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Then document receives D245 Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then D245 is marked for identification.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  May I make the suggestion that perhaps over the

17     break Mr. Stojanovic and I together with the witness attempt to use

18     Google Maps to locate the -- no.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll do that.

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Oh, you'll do it.  Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we'll do it.  You can do it.  What I expect

22     you or the Defence to do is to make a colour printout of the exact

23     location on Google Maps or Google Earth - perhaps even better - where you

24     see buildings, where you see -- and then ask the witness to mark that

25     after he returns to the courtroom.  We'd rather not -- the witness is

Page 9230

 1     expected not to communicate with the parties meanwhile.

 2             Now I don't know who has the colour printer nearest by.  It's ...

 3     perhaps Prosecution.  If we could have it zoomed in at various levels so

 4     that we could make a series of two or three, and then ...

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, in order to avoid further

 8     confusion, is it correct that 245 and 246 were assigned to the video.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise, Your Honours, yes, that is true.

10     Then document marked by the witness, document P54 -- yeah, receives

11     number D247, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

13             We take a break and resume at --

14             Yes, Ms. Hochhauser.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I apologise.  I apologise, Judge.  If we could

16     have the witness put on the record the exact intersection that he is

17     referring to as his accommodation, so that I can probably locate it on

18     Google Maps or locate the area.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  What I'd like is that you focus on what is --

20     in the Prosecution's position, is this cross-roads.  That is also clear

21     from the map we looked at earlier, which was marked by the witness, where

22     the name of the street appears and the impact was located at number 1 in

23     the many reports.  That location is easily, with the help of this -- if I

24     could refer you to hard copy page 31 of the -- of the hard copy in P3

25     gives you sufficient clues to find it on Google Maps, I think.  And what

Page 9231

 1     I'd like to have at various levels of zooming in, the area around what is

 2     indicated on this map as G10, which is on the -- a cross-roads at the end

 3     of Aleksa Santic Street.  If that would help you and we could then

 4     compare later.  To the extent possible if it could be uploaded already

 5     into e-court as a series of Google Earth maps -- or that -- if that's

 6     possible, fine.  If not, we'll look at it at the --

 7             We -- then could the witness first be escorted out of the

 8     courtroom.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 10 minutes to 2.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 1.30 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.53 p.m.

13                           [The accused not present]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber establishes that Mr. Mladic is not in

15     the courtroom.  We were informed that Mr. Mladic, in order not to miss a

16     visit which was scheduled for early the afternoon, has waived his right

17     to be present.

18             Mr. Lukic, that's what you can confirm?

19             MR. LUKIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Last time when you gave a form to us in which he

21     waived his right to be present, we invited you to file that.  That has

22     never been done, as far as I understand.

23             MR. LUKIC:  We corrected this time, and it is filed just a few

24     moments ago.  So maybe it is not in the system yet.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, could the Chamber have a look at

Page 9232

 1     the document, even if it's a hard copy, where Mr. Mladic ...

 2             We'll continue in the absence of Mr. Mladic.

 3             Could we have -- first of all, could we have the witness escorted

 4     into the courtroom.  And, at the same time, could we have page 36 of P3,

 5     which is the Hrasnica map, on our screens.

 6             I'm looking with full expectation to the Prosecution.

 7             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  By some feat of technological genius, which was

 8     not mine, we have two images, one closer up and one further out.  On

 9     colour paper we have not been able to upload them or anything like that,

10     but --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If we could have a look at them then perhaps I would

12     like to distribute to the parties a series of four which gives even a

13     better context.

14             Madam Registrar.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I gave a few more Google Earth prints to

18     the -- the parties in order to -- to allow them to orient themselves.

19     The first one is with -- on top the airport, and to the bottom it is

20     Hrasnica.  You see there is a kind of a cross-roads with a sharp angle

21     which we also find on the picture which is on our screen at this moment.

22             Do we all agree that this is a Hrasnica and we verified the

23     Prosecution's copy, which depicts the same, although in colour now.

24     Parties all agree that it is adequate -- adequately reflecting the

25     relevant area.

Page 9233

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence too.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then what -- yes.

 4             Now, what I suggest is the following:  That we first try to agree

 5     on where approximately the impact is.  And, for that purpose, could the

 6     first coloured map produced by the Prosecution be put on the ELMO.

 7             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, the only two copies that I was able

 8     to produce are in Your Honours' hands.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll give them -- in order to be put on the ELMO.

10     This one first.

11             And, Witness, could I invite you, first of all, to carefully look

12     at this moment at the map you have before you, and which was shown to you

13     earlier in which you marked.  And could I especially ask your attention

14     for the Aleksa Santica Street, which runs south-east to north-west on

15     this map, just --

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you still have the picture of page 36?  Can you

18     see the -- which is not a Google Earth yet but is still the map.

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you see there a street called Aleksa Santica,

21     which runs from south-east up to where G10 is indicated.

22        A.   Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you to carefully try to keep this

24     picture in your memory when we move to what is now on the ELMO.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9234

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  There's nothing on the ELMO.  Is the ELMO not

 2     functioning?

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  There we are.  There we are.

 5             Witness, do you now recognise, more or less, what we have on our

 6     screen?  And could I -- is there ...

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we zoom in like that.

 9             Witness, do you still have on your mind the previous picture?  We

10     can always switch back to -- what I see is the cross-roads under the

11     sharp angle a little bit further up.

12             Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes, I'm just trying to orientate.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then there is a street going - and the orientation

15     of this map is north to the top -- goes in approximately southwesterly

16     direction.

17        A.   Mm-hm.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Where there is a cross-roads, four roads crossing,

19     but the crossing is of irregular shape.

20             Do you see that?  It's not ...

21        A.   Then down here ...

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The problem is we can't follow you in your --

23        A.   No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let me -- I'll try to guide you again.

25             At the top part, we have a road which arrives from almost

Page 9235

 1     northerly direction and ends in a kind of a huge roundabout.  You see

 2     that?

 3        A.   I see that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now you turn down -- you go down from that

 5     roundabout in southerly direction a little south-east -- south-west.  I

 6     apologise for.  You see that?

 7        A.   Mm-hm.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, from that roundabout south to southwesterly

 9     direction, and then you arrive at what looks like cross-roads but is not

10     the regular cross-roads but is a funny-shaped kind of a place where the

11     four streets coming together.

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you see that?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now I'm addressing the parties:  Is it that

16     cross-road which is indicated on the map as G10?  Is that the cross-road

17     where the impact is located?  That is just to the east of that --

18     immediately east to that cross-roads.

19             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, I believe it is a little bit to

20     that one side but, yes, that is the cross-road that I believe is

21     [overlapping speakers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] that's the cross-road.

23     Mr. Stojanovic, you agree as well.

24             Now, can we --

25             Witness, my next question is:  If that is the cross-roads where

Page 9236

 1     the impact is, can you orient yourself?

 2        A.   Yes, I believe so.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You believe so.

 4        A.   That was a bit difficult, but ... I can see that -- the place

 5     where you have the G10.  I believe I have the -- the right position.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7        A.   But from there, because --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, are you able to tell us, taken from that

 9     position, where your accommodation was?

10        A.   Accommodation --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to -- to -- perhaps to assist you, you see at

12     the -- up, left part of this picture, you see bigger buildings which

13     seems to be residential flats.  I don't know whether they are, but that's

14     what at the look like, just for your orientation.

15             What we see from the cross-roads in more or less northerly

16     direction there are some larger buildings which, if we look at the map we

17     saw a minute ago, is an area where a street is called Skolska which

18     sounds very much like school road, but I'm not a B/C/S-speaking person.

19             Now, could we move up again a bit slightly the -- or at least

20     it -- move down so that we have a bigger area.  Yes.  Perhaps a little

21     bit further up again.  Yes.

22             Now, have you had an opportunity to -- not to be zoomed in.

23             Looking at all this Witness, are you now able to orient yourself

24     in such a way that you could more or less tell us where your

25     accommodation was?

Page 9237

 1        A.   Not immediately.  I'm not able.  Because there were some --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  This is, of course, how it looks today.

 3        A.   Yeah, yeah.  There was some ditches and also a little bit road on

 4     both sites of the ditches.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But could you tell us in what direction it was.  Is

 6     it from this cross-road, is it purely south, is it south-west?

 7        A.   South -- south of the --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Of the cross-roads?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That means the road leading to the bottom --

11        A.   Yeah.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of this picture.

13        A.   Yeah.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The bottom of this picture, a little bit to the

15     left, which bends before it reaches the bottom of the picture.

16        A.   Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the parties agree that that is -- from G10

18     that it is southeasterly direction or I should say south to south-east

19     close to south slightly east.

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, that I would agree to.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I would say approximately -- at approximately 200

22     degrees on the compass; 180 being purely south and 270 being west.

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Judge, I can agree that it is south and then it

24     curves slight, to the -- to the left.  It goes slightly to left --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would be on that road if would be on the

Page 9238

 1     left.  If you look at the picture, it is to the right.  Then we have a

 2     different ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             Mr. Stojanovic, is this clear to you as well?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  While

 7     preparing for this, we tried to find the location so we do have an idea

 8     of where that could be.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which would mean that if you would travel from

10     your accommodation to the cross-roads where we have identified G10 to be,

11     that you would travel in northerly just west of northerly direction.

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Do all parties agree on that?

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  To be frank, Your Honour, I'm getting a little

15     confused.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll do the following:  Could the -- could

17     the -- could we first look at the second one.  Here we see the same

18     cross-roads.  Do you see that, Witness?

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, could you by hand, mark, first of all, and put

21     a circle around the cross-roads.  And you need an ordinary pen for that,

22     or can you do it on the screen.  I don't know whether it's possible.  I

23     don't think so because we're not in e-court.  We should -- should be done

24     on paper with a marker, a clear -- yes.  Could it be put on the -- it --

25     it is on the ELMO.  Could an ordinary pen be given to the witness.  If

Page 9239

 1     there's a marker that would even be clearer.  Yes.

 2             Now, Witness, I would now like to invite you to make a marking

 3     not on the screen but on the paper.  Could you first put a circle around

 4     the cross-roads you think G10 was -- was being depicted.

 5        A.   That would be here.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.  Could we put again.

 7             Now, could you tell us in which direction from this, by

 8     indicating it by an arrow, in which direction your accommodation was.

 9        A.   It is down.  That has to be down that road and down in this area.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay --

11        A.   [Overlapping speakers] houses here I'm not sure.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13        A.   There are two houses if it is this one.  Or that one.  I'm not

14     sure.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you put around the two houses a circle

16     and add the letter A for accommodation.

17        A.   [Marks]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  My final question:  There's no doubt in your mind

19     that it was along this road that your accommodation was.  That is,

20     southerly direction.

21        A.   Not 100 per cent, no.  Because it is new buildings, new roads

22     here.  That wasn't there at the time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but to the best of your recollection --

24        A.   Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which means that your accommodation was south

Page 9240

 1     from the point of impact.

 2             I suggest that this will be uploaded into e-court but be given to

 3     Madam Registrar first and that we assign a -- preferably perhaps a D

 4     number, Mr. Stojanovic, to this document.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Hard copy document marked by the witness receives

 6     number D248, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D248.  Any objection?

 8             D248 is admitted into evidence and should be uploaded into

 9     e-court.

10             Now a last question to you, Witness:  You said -- you indicated

11     that it was due to the fact that the windows were shaking where you were,

12     which you explained as the consequence of speed of a projectile flying

13     over your head, that this made you conclude that the windows broken you

14     saw, that that must have been the trajectory of the projectile.  Have I

15     understood you correctly?

16        A.   Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You also agree with me that if the projectile

18     flew over your head on the assumption that you have well marked the

19     direction where your accommodation was, that it had not come from

20     northwesterly direction, but, rather from southeasterly direction.

21     Because this map was oriented north up --

22        A.   Yeah.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as is the other map which still may be on your

24     screen at this moment.

25        A.   Yeah.  No name on that road.  Because on the sketch I was wrong

Page 9241

 1     when I then said go upwards.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that map was -- that map was oriented in a

 3     different way.  As a matter of fact, what you indicated as being upwards

 4     was south -- south-east.

 5        A.   Yeah.  That is not -- not correct.  It was opposite direction.

 6     Downwards on -- on the sketch.  Has to be so.  That was the sketch that

 7     was confusing me a bit, yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that you saw the broken windows on a

 9     road arriving from your accommodation to where G10 is to the road to the

10     left.

11        A.   On the road to the left of G10.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Which goes on this map -- and we are looking at

15     page 36 of P3, which goes in the direction to where we have the

16     Proleterska and Marta and Ula.

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that the direction that you --

19        A.   That is correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I think we have tried to clarify as good

21     as we could the whole testimony about directions.

22             Unless the parties have any further questions in this respect?

23             No further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any additional

25     questions, Your Honour.


Page 9242

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hochhauser.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Just one, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4                           Further re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

 5        Q.   Sir, when you described how you then walked and drove the -- the

 6     route where you -- upon -- the route where you observed the broken

 7     windows, and you said that you followed it right up the confrontation

 8     line.  The confrontation line where?

 9        A.   Against Ilidza.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber noticed that at least on the maps

12     there are confrontation lines in both directions.  South-west --

13     north-west and south-east.

14             Then if there are no further questions, I'd like to thank you

15     very much for coming --

16             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You're relieved by having ended this exercise.

18             Mr. Overgard.  Mr. Overgard, I'd like to thank you for coming to

19     The Hague and for having answered all the questions and I wish you a safe

20     return home again.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.  Hopefully we have it

22     clarified now.  [Microphone not activated].

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any matter to be raised by the parties


Page 9243

 1     urgently?  If not, we'll adjourn and we resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the

 2     27th of February, 2013, in this same courtroom, I.

 3             We stand adjourned.

 4                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

 6                           February, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.