Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9740

 1                           Friday, 12 April 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness can be escorted in the courtroom.

 6             Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone in and around this courtroom.  The

11     Chamber has not heard of any preliminaries.  Therefore, we'll wait for

12     the witness to arrive.

13             Mr. McCloskey, perhaps you could already indicate which will be

14     the next page we'll look at so that everyone is ready.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Good morning.  And we are at

16     65 ter 28756, the book, and we had just flipped to 144 in e-court, 123.

17     He had not explained that as yet.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I'm told we have about an hour and a half

20     left and we'll, of course, endeavour to get through it in that -- at that

21     point.  It's hard to estimate, but we'll give it our best.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll see.  Try to use your time as

23     efficiently as possible.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Ruez.

Page 9741

 1             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by

 3     the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony

 4     that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5             Mr. McCloskey will now continue his examination-in-chief.

 6             Mr. McCloskey, my recollection tells me that we were somewhere

 7     else in the -- yes, 123 in the book.  And please proceed.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  144 in e-court.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, that seems not to correspond.  That

10     should be -- let me see -- no.

11             The number in the book certainly is right.  Tell us whenever you

12     think we have the right -- I think that's the one we need.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There we go.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15                           WITNESS:  JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]

16                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

17        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Ruez.  As -- yes, we're at 123 in the book, as

18     you've managed to get to, I see, and as we can -- we know that you have

19     learned from information and from aerial imagery of a particular site and

20     now you've gone there.  Can you tell us what -- what this is at 144.

21        A.   As I said, on the suspect area which matched the area of

22     disturbance of the soil, on the surface we could see a certain number of

23     items, including what the pathologist who was with us, Professor

24     Bill Haglund, told us were human bones.  So we marked these elements on

25     the ground prior to taking photographs.  As an example, item 25 is a

Page 9742

 1     human femur.

 2        Q.   Let's just go through these items if we can.  So let's go to 145.

 3     Is there another item on the ground, same area?

 4        A.   Yes.  This one is a human jaw.

 5        Q.   And let's go to 146.

 6        A.   This is a shell casing.  So it's a sampling of items.  We didn't

 7     put in the book the entire photo album of this preliminary search.  We

 8     dug also the -- the soil.  We don't have pictures of this.  We started a

 9     probe but the soil was extremely wet, and in fact in this area, the

10     surface were -- the bodies more or less melted.  So the soil was greenish

11     which is decomposition.  But we discovered enough items to understand

12     that this was a site of higher interest and an exhumation took place

13     there already in 1996, a few months, two months, I think, after our first

14     visit.

15        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next page.  147.

16        A.   So this is a paper envelope of ammunition.  It contains a certain

17     number of rounds and then they are put in a -- in a wooden box.  This

18     wooden box is in an aluminum box.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let's -- let's keep going on that, then I think can you

20     help explain.  Let's go to 148.

21             Is this the same general vicinity?  It looks a bit more wooded.

22     Where is this?

23        A.   We will see another photograph that shows where this item was

24     found.  Since at one point the witness told us that he -- he overheard

25     the -- the killers say that they would move to the other -- to another

Page 9743

 1     execution site and he overheard saying, Take the ammunition box, so

 2     obviously there were more than one because this one was left over,

 3     apparently empty.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to the next photo which I think is -- helps

 5     clarify this a bit.

 6             Is this the same box?

 7        A.   Yeah, this is the same box that we turned over.  And it is

 8     written on it that it's a -- that this box contains 1.200,

 9     7.62-millimetre ammunition.

10        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 150.

11             What's the purpose of this?

12        A.   This photograph is from the ammunition box that we found in

13     completely different circumstances, but I took the photograph only to

14     show how the packaging is done since we found elements of such a

15     packaging on the execution site.  So as can you see it's an aluminum box,

16     inside is a wooden box with, then, these smaller boxes containing the

17     ammo, and we found these elements in one area of this execution site.

18        Q.   All right.  Let's now go to 152 because there's a blank page in

19     the book.

20             Explain this?

21        A.   So the -- on the front of the picture, we have the alleged

22     execution area that continued -- went to the right, and the witnesses say

23     also that the shooters had some kind of rest area, they call, which is

24     most probably, according to my view, the area that is more at the top of

25     this little elevation which is close with our yellow tape and this is the

Page 9744

 1     location where we found these elements of ammunition, so probably the

 2     area where the guns were reloaded because this is where we found these

 3     elements of ammunition.

 4        Q.   And the red arrow?

 5        A.   The red arrow points to the second execution site, knowing that

 6     this one named Lazete 2 is, in fact, the first site which was used.

 7     After that, they had to move -- they passed again under the railroad line

 8     and the -- the other prisoners taken from the Grbavci school were

 9     executed on the other side of this elevation on the suspect site named

10     LZ-1.

11        Q.   Let's go to 153, the next page.

12        A.   So once rather than passing under the railroad line, if like one

13     of these survivors you climbed on the elevation where the railroad is,

14     can you overlook the area where the -- the other site is.  And the area

15     with the yellow dotted circle is the area that one can see from the

16     aerial imagery as marking the area of disturbance.

17        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 154, the next page.

18        A.   One thing.

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   The house which is on the photograph was not there at the time of

21     the events.  It was -- there was no house there.  This house was

22     constructed after the war.

23        Q.   Okay.  So now to 1 -- 154.

24        A.   So this is a view from helicopter.  At the left is the direction

25     of the school, so the arrow points the direction that the little trucks

Page 9745

 1     took, the TAM trucks.  Again, you can see the little dirt road that leads

 2     to the railroad, the underpass, and then the triangle, the first

 3     execution site, Lazete 2, and then way back in direction of Grbavci

 4     school, the execution site number 2 which is Lazete 1 on this one.

 5     Because these ones are not the markings -- yes.  The opposite markings

 6     again.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ruez, do I understand you correctly that you

 8     were referring to witnesses who told you about the TAM truck and where it

 9     went and back and forth.

10             THE WITNESS:  Sure, the TAM truck, yes.  The execution site

11     number 2, aside the fact that one overheard that they were moving to this

12     other site which he doesn't know which it is, there is no survivor on the

13     second site.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just wanted to clarify that this is not your

15     personal observation but what witnesses told you.  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS:  No, no, no.  The trademark of the truck is only

17     witness information.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next photo, 155.

20        A.   Nearby these two suspect sites, we -- we found a spot which was

21     obviously filled with garbage, but, like usual, we go through this type

22     of garbage things, and so we searched through all this -- these elements.

23        Q.   So then let's go to the next page.  156.

24        A.   So I -- I don't know if a video of the search will be seen,

25     but --

Page 9746

 1        Q.   No.

 2        A.   No?  Okay.  So as a summary, I would say that we found a certain

 3     number of hand-made clothings, hats, socks, but the main -- the main

 4     elements that we found, and they are not all, unfortunately, on this

 5     picture, it's a large amount of these same type of blindfold and cloth

 6     that we found at the Grbavci school and that were later found also inside

 7     the two graves.  So we have three areas where this same type of cloth was

 8     found and later matched by the lab.  That is the school, this garbage

 9     dump site, and inside the -- the graves.

10        Q.   How about berets, did you find any little berets?

11        A.   Yes.  We also find a certain number of berets, yes, which is,

12     according to what we were told, an item that mainly the old men wear in

13     this area.

14        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 157.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If we're talking about berets were they military

16     type of berets or were they civilian type of berets?

17             THE WITNESS:  Purely civilian type of berets.  The shape is

18     civilian, the colours were mainly dark blue or black.  Civilian berets.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No insignia on it?

20             THE WITNESS:  Not at all, no, no, purely civilian style.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   And we've seen this before.  What's the purpose for this photo in

25     this book?

Page 9747

 1        A.   This one -- it's the same one we already saw and that I explained

 2     in relation with the disturbance of this area.  But this one spots the

 3     precise area where the dump site was located.  At about -- a bit more

 4     than, say, less than 200 metres from the underpass of the railroad.

 5        Q.   All right.  That finishes up the Orahovac sites.  So let's go on

 6     now to the next page, 158, which you have entitled:  "The Petkovci

 7     school."  And you've marked that on the graphic, as we see, in yellow; is

 8     that right?

 9        A.   This is right.

10        Q.   And so let's go to the next page.  159.

11             And what did you learn, if anything, from -- from witnesses about

12     this, what this is?

13        A.   From two witnesses who were evacuated from the Bratunac town also

14     July 13, the indications that they provided led us to another execution

15     site which is the one we call the dam at -- at Petkovci and they were

16     held in a school at a few minutes of drive from the dam.  So, from there,

17     the closest and the only school, by the way, in the area is this one that

18     they later recognised according to the photographs that were shown, and

19     also when, at a later stage, we returned with them to the area.

20        Q.   All right.  And we see that the school is marked here.  So let's

21     go to 160.

22        A.   So this is a closer shot of facade of this school when you are on

23     the asphalt road that -- it's a small -- it's a small asphalt road to

24     goes to Zvornik also.  And the prisoners who were kept inside said that

25     there were guards on the outside, on a field, and if they were standing

Page 9748

 1     up to get closer to the window to get air, shots were fired so that they

 2     stay sitting.

 3        Q.   Let's go to --

 4        A.   That's the area from where probably guards were standing in front

 5     of the school just in case someone would maybe get out of here.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 161.

 7        A.   The -- this is a view from the back of the school, because to

 8     enter the school, in fact, you have to drive on a little parking lot

 9     behind it, and then there is the description that they gave of their

10     arrival.  So I took a photograph of this -- of this entrance.  They said

11     that they, once unloaded from the truck, they walked down a stairs and

12     between two rows of soldiers who were beating them and one of the

13     photograph was shown, they -- they, indeed, claimed that this was the

14     access of the school that they took.

15        Q.   Do you recall on this photo what the yellow arrow is designed to

16     depict?

17        A.   It's pointing to the school.

18        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 162, the next page.  And what is this?

19        A.   This is the view that I just talked about, the -- the arrival.

20     This is the stairs one would walk down in order to enter the school.

21        Q.   And had you received a description of something that sounded like

22     this before you actually took anyone there?

23        A.   One would have to read back their statement, but, yes, it's --

24     it's matching.  I mean, it's walking down stairs to enter the school.

25     This is the only school and this is what we recognised.

Page 9749

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the question was whether they gave such a

 2     statement after had you taken them there --

 3             THE WITNESS:  No.  No, no.  All the information was collected

 4     before we came there.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That was not whether it was matching but what was

 6     the sequence of gathering this evidence.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's -- let's go to 163.

10        A.   So once inside, they were taken to a classroom at the first floor

11     of the school.  So this is the -- unfortunately, it's not a large angle,

12     so it's normal camera lens, and this is the upper floor.

13        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next page.  164.

14        A.   This is the staircase.  They said they had to walk a staircase

15     and then arrived at a corridor and arrived then in a -- in the last

16     classroom at the end of the corridor.

17        Q.   So let's -- let's go to 165 then.

18        A.   And this is the corridor.  So the -- the classroom was the one

19     completely at the end of this, to the right.

20        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 166.

21        A.   That's a photograph of the inside of a classroom.  This school

22     had been -- by the time we went, that was -- it was already in 1996

23     under -- not reconstruction but let's say renovation of the inside by an

24     international NGO.  And the description was a classroom with a stove and

25     a green blackboard.  Though the walls and so on looked quite new and so

Page 9750

 1     the -- the witness recognised this picture as being, indeed, the stove

 2     and the -- this classroom.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 167.  And why have you chosen this picture?

 4        A.   So on this picture although the room had been renovated, the

 5     blackboard was obviously not a new one, and this photograph could

 6     implement the declarations about shots being fired in order to keep the

 7     people sitting down because they are -- what I believe are bullet-holes

 8     on this blackboard.  Could be a match.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 168.

10        A.   So this is a closer photograph of one of the holes visible on the

11     black board.

12        Q.   And 169.

13        A.   This is, again, a view of the staircase that the -- one of the

14     witness reminded very well, because he -- he said that when he stepped

15     out of the school to be taken out and taken on board of a bus, this

16     staircase he went down was full of blood.

17        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 170.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, could I ask one question.

19             The -- the first photograph, a couple of pages back, about the

20     first floor, bears a date, the 23rd of August of 1996.

21             Now, most of the photographs following do not have a similar date

22     on it.  Do you have an explanation for -- because usually a camera either

23     gives the date or not.  Of course, can you switch it on and off but --

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  We -- we went twice to this school.  The

25     fact is that the mission where we could really enter was the mission of

Page 9751

 1     August 1996, since, later, especially when we came back with the witness

 2     in 1998, inside was, in brackets, a refugee camp.  The refugees were

 3     living inside the school, so though we had security with us, it was not a

 4     real option to get inside and -- and the problems with the locals in this

 5     place.  So when we came back with the witness, we could not enter the

 6     area.

 7             But I might have taken pictures from the inside that could

 8     explain the difference of dates but I don't see because I only see the

 9     date of --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not saying any different dates.  I'm saying that

11     the first two photographs have dates on it.

12             THE WITNESS:  Ah, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Whereas the others do not have any on them.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I honestly don't explain this.  It's more or

15     less on the entire album.  Sometimes the picture -- the date shows on the

16     picture, and sometimes not.  But --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But all these pictures which are taken in the school

18     building which seems to be without persons, apart from the first one

19     where we see a few persons, were they all taken on the same day?

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's my question.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 9752

 1        Q.   All right.  I think we were talking about --

 2        A.   I mean, I say yes.  I say yes, but I'm not sure because we went

 3     more than once.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But --

 5             THE WITNESS:  But, nevertheless, will the date be different, it

 6     wouldn't change so much because --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, leave it to the Chamber whether it changes

 8     anything, yes or no.

 9             But now you said the second time you returned, then it was a

10     refugee camp and had you no entrance.  Does that mean that you were not

11     there twice with an interval of one or two years but that you were there

12     during your first visit, you were several times in the school?

13             Is that -- because --

14             THE WITNESS:  If I recall well, what might have happened, was

15     that the first move we probably photographed the outside.  On the second

16     move, we entered.  And on the third one when we came with the witness in

17     1998, we couldn't enter.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But what I was interested in is whether the

19     date on which the photographs were taken which bear the date

20     23rd of August, 1996, whether they were taken at the same time, in the

21     same, well, let's say, day or at least same visit as the other ones with

22     the blackboard, bullet-holes on it, et cetera.

23             THE WITNESS:  I understand your question.  I cannot guarantee the

24     answer.  I would only, in that case, be certain for the dates of those

25     who bear a date.  For the other ones I would not take responsibility to

Page 9753

 1     give a date that might appear being wrong at a later stage.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   So you had mentioned the witness told you about stairs.  And

 6     we're at 170 now.  At page 148 in the book.

 7        A.   Sorry, I just return to the other spot.  Indeed, I can see dates.

 8     I can see one mission of April and one apparently in August, I think.

 9     But the marking is extremely fuzzy.  So I confirm I would not give a

10     precise date.

11        Q.   All right.  So just the photo on the screen, Mr. Ruez.

12        A.   Oh, that's the -- the view of the stairs when going down that the

13     witness claims being covered with blood when he exited this -- this

14     building.

15        Q.   All right.  That is the end of that chapter for the school.

16             The next chapter is the dam.  Let's go to 170 --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question about the staircase.

18             There are techniques with which after quite some time you can

19     still demonstrate blood-stains with fluorescent materials.  Was ever such

20     a test done on this staircase?

21             THE WITNESS:  It was not done on the staircase.  It had been done

22     inside the Grbavci school.  Though we had no indication of anyone being

23     kept inside this school building, we only knew about people in the gym.

24     We did a search during a night-time because illumina [phoen] has to be

25     used during night-time.  The result was very positive.  There were even

Page 9754

 1     obvious traces of -- of sponges that had cleaned some places in this

 2     school building of Grbavci, not this one.  But the --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But my question mainly was whether it had been

 4     tested here --

 5             THE WITNESS:  No, it was not tested here.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   Did you have an explanation of why it wasn't tested?  Was that

 9     where you were going?  If not, we can go on to the next question.

10        A.   Let's say that the technique used by the person who did it in

11     Grbavci school happened to be unfunctional.  We couldn't use it.  Quality

12     of the technician.

13        Q.   All right.  Let's go on to the chapter entitled:  "The dam."

14     It's the next page.  We see it roughly marked.  So let's go to the next

15     page.  172.

16             And can you tell us what this is?  And, of course, in particular,

17     how it relates to what you learned, if anything, from witnesses of this

18     event.

19        A.   So this photograph is taken from what we call the dam -- the dam.

20     Unfortunately, we don't have a first overview of this.

21             It's -- it is a barrage filled with the water, the waste of the

22     aluminum factory which is nearby, in Karakaj, which is pumped in this

23     lake.  And the school.  So when you see the little -- the little path at

24     the middle right of the picture, this is a little path that leads towards

25     the school, approximately 2 or 3 kilometres away from here.  So they took

Page 9755

 1     a dirt road, and ended up on the plateau of this dam.  So this picture

 2     shows two things:  First of all, the size of it, of this plateau; and the

 3     area where you can see the people standing is an area of disturbed soil

 4     that we believed were -- was the suspect area.  Since we had made an

 5     imagery request also for this site, the information that we initially had

 6     what -- was that the site was not disturbed but was the first

 7     information.

 8        Q.   And I think you've said this but to confirm, did you -- how many

 9     survivors, if any, did you have of this site?

10        A.   Two survivors on this site.

11        Q.   So you're getting information from both of them?

12        A.   Both of them.  They tell more or less the same -- the same story.

13        Q.   All right.  And let's go to the next picture.  173.

14        A.   This one is aerial imagery of the surface of this plateau.  The

15     first one is dated 7 September, where you can see the -- how the surface

16     looks.  And, later on, 27 September, there is an area of change compared

17     with the previous photograph.  So something happened between the

18     7th September and the 27th September on this area.

19        Q.   Can you relate for us where on this aerial image where we see a

20     bracket, how does that relate to the picture we saw before with the men

21     standing around a brown area?

22        A.   If -- if you compare the two photographs, the people who are

23     standing on the coloured photographs are standing right on this spot.

24     You can clearly see this spot on the coloured photographs.  It's very

25     clearly visible.

Page 9756

 1        Q.   So when you say "this spot," you're talking about the bracketed

 2     spot --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- on 173?

 5        A.   Yes, the spot of disturbed soil.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 174.

 7        A.   So on -- on this view, you have several elements --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we go back for a second to the previous one.

 9             I think the next -- let me see ...

10             Could you tell us, what is the side of the dam and what is the

11     side of the meadow?

12             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  The -- on --

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We could go to 178, Mr. President, which may be

14     helpful.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I leave that, then, in your hands.  But I

16     think the answer could be given in a second.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, indeed.

18             At the right of the picture is the -- is the dam --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.  Then the other side must be the

20     meadow.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes, and --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS:  -- with the other, it will be very clear.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 9757

 1        Q.   Okay.  So we're now on 174.

 2        A.   On this one, the first thing I will indicate to relate it with

 3     the previous aerial imagery is the access to the plateau.  You can see

 4     completely at the left of the picture, the dirt road that goes towards

 5     the school.  And then it goes a little bit up and turns towards this area

 6     of disturbance.  On the aerial imagery, I said -- then at the right grass

 7     area at the left, you can very clearly see the view of the bend of this

 8     approach road that leads to the plateau.

 9             Totally at the bottom, the little curve that it makes to turn

10     from bottom left to bottom right is the access, the access path that

11     leads to the plateau that you have on the coloured picture of this

12     exhibit exactly at your left hand.

13        Q.   Okay.  And this is -- you've created a unique image with an

14     arrow.  Can you tell us how that fits into --

15        A.   Yes.  So the two survivors claim having been shot on this

16     plateau, then they escaped, crawling through concrete ditch, arrived

17     on -- in a little wood on a hill that you can see just in front, this

18     wooded area, where they stayed until the next morning.  And then they

19     took an escape route that we will see on another picture.

20             Here, the arrow points to the spot where, when we took one of the

21     two survivors, that's the spot he designated as being the precise

22     location where he was standing when he was shot.

23        Q.   All right --

24        A.   The people -- the people at the left are, again, close to this

25     area of disturbance that is also clear on this picture.

Page 9758

 1        Q.   Let's go to 175.

 2        A.   The -- the witness we took back on the area is RM204.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, for the record, Mr. Ruez is reviewing the

 5     note we provided at the beginning.

 6        Q.   All right.  And so now let's go to 175.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all unnecessary microphones kindly be

 8     switched off, please.  Thank you.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   What's this?

11        A.   So on this next photograph, we can see that, indeed, there is a

12     concrete ditch that comes from one side to -- of this dam and continues

13     along the bottom of the plateau.  This ditch matched the description made

14     by the survivors who were -- from this plateau crawled towards the wooden

15     hill just in front.

16        Q.   And, again, had you received this description of the ditch prior

17     to -- to going to the dam with the survivor, or is this something he

18     pointed out when you were with him?

19        A.   All the elements described by the witnesses were elements

20     provided by them in July, August -- I mean, summer 1995.  We didn't

21     re-interview them.  We conducted in 1996 and later these searches,

22     observations, but based on the information that we collected in 1995.  We

23     didn't -- then when we saw them again, it was only to show photographs

24     and check if they would recognise something.

25        Q.   Okay.  That should be -- all right.  Let's go to 176.

Page 9759

 1             And can you orient us about this?

 2        A.   So this is a helicopter view from the plateau and the dam.  As

 3     you can see, the water is red.  It's waste from the aluminum factory,

 4     chemical products.

 5             The red line -- the red line.  The black line in the middle marks

 6     the beginning of the surface of the plateau, the red being a steep slope.

 7     One can see the entire surface of it, and the arrows mark the approximate

 8     path that the witnesses declare having taken.

 9             So initially, first to this hill, and then they crawled

10     direction -- in the direction of the blue arrow towards -- towards a

11     hill.  From there, they continued their way.

12             And one can see also at the left there is a little dirt road that

13     in fact goes up to the plateau.  This is an important element because, on

14     the morning of the 15, they claim having seen a little tractor and a

15     trolley, and the bodies were picked -- some bodies were picked, put on

16     this trolley.  And then the tractor took the direction that we can see on

17     this road.  But at some point they lost it from sight.  So they didn't

18     know where the bodies were taken.  But it's an important thing to note

19     that prior to another type of exhumation here, a little tractor took away

20     an unknown amount of bodies.  I say that because we didn't find them

21     later on, and I will explain why.

22        Q.   Mr. Ruez, can you explain, the witnesses told that you this

23     tractor was taking bodies along this road.  Was it taking bodies on the

24     straight road which we see, which is back towards Petkovci, or at this

25     curve that appears to be coming up towards the water?

Page 9760

 1        A.   The curve that goes towards the water.  But that also continues

 2     not to the top of the dam but continues to what we named the peninsula.

 3     We will see it on another picture.

 4             But, again, initially on this picture was to show the blue line

 5     which is the exit path for those two survivors.

 6        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next page.  177.

 7        A.   This one is a continuity of an explanation of the path that they

 8     said they took.  Going up to this hill, indeed, when you went to see the

 9     spot, when you are moving up to this place you can quite easily, let's

10     say, hide from the site of the dam because there are bushes.  It's quite

11     easy to escape.  Easy is in brackets.

12        Q.   All right.  178, next picture.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... can I just ask a

14     question.  I see there are arrows pointing different directions.  Does it

15     mean that the people moved one direction and went back again?

16             THE WITNESS:  No.  The arrow that first goes up is the way, rough

17     way, they took to go up to the hill.  And from the hill, they went to --

18     to the east -- I mean -- they followed this -- there is a hill that

19     continues, in fact, in the direction of Zvornik and they first walked on

20     that hill until they found they were out.  So it is first going up, and

21     then going, if I look at the map, yeah, south-east.  But then they had to

22     go west in order to reach the confrontation line and find a way out.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand the dotted part to be that they went

24     there but did not continue there, but, rather, then walked --

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, yes --

Page 9761

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- slightly back and then --

 2             THE WITNESS:  Just computer thing.  I mean, going up and then

 3     turning right, let's say.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 5             THE WITNESS:  They stayed together.  They didn't take two

 6     different courses of action.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.

10             So now let's go to 178.

11             What's this?

12        A.   This is what we name the peninsula of this lake, artificial lake.

13     Request for imagery didn't enable us to find the disturbances in this

14     area.  The assumption was that at the end of this path, the -- the

15     tractor might have either dumped the bodies in the water, possibility, or

16     maybe buried on this peninsula.  The problem is that when Professor

17     Richard Wright, I think, was the one who tried this probing attempt, it

18     was not possible because the area is stuffed with unknown chemicals and

19     they couldn't take the risk to start digging in this place without

20     knowing what is there.  So since we had no other technical means to find

21     what happened with these bodies taken, the 15 in the morning, we had to

22     abandon the search on this.

23        Q.   So as -- as far as you know, has that account of bodies being

24     removed and taken up ever been confirmed?

25        A.   We have absolutely no idea about this.  We don't know how many

Page 9762

 1     bodies were taken, where they were taken.  It's a question -- open

 2     question mark.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next page.  179.

 4             And do you recall who this is and what this is?

 5        A.   Yes.  During our -- it was our first visit on this plateau, we

 6     were together with Professor Bill Haglund, William Haglund.  On the

 7     surface of this plateau which was initially supposed to be undisturbed,

 8     we found a lot of suspect items, so including this collection of human

 9     bones.  It was Professor Haglund who determined that they were human.

10     Number of pieces of skull in specific areas and also shell casings.  But

11     we return on this spot on several more occasions.

12        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 180 now.

13             We see a date.  Your first date, as you said, on 179 was April

14     1996.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now 180, we see 1997.  What is this?  And where is it?

17        A.   We returned in 1996 also.  But in 1997, since we still believed

18     by then the place was undisturbed, in order to make sure we could do an

19     exhumation, we needed to check if there was something under the soil.  So

20     we went there and dug this hole, more or less, in the middle of the

21     suspect area, and -- it's quite difficult to dig in here, but at

22     approximately 1 metre of depth, we found something that happened to be a

23     piece of a human skull.

24        Q.   And who dug this hole?

25        A.   You did it.

Page 9763

 1        Q.   Did you take part in it?

 2        A.   Yes, I was with you.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to the next photograph.

 4        A.   So, on this one, it's a closer shot of what we found that day in

 5     the -- in the hole.  And it was determined by our pathologist that this

 6     was a piece of human skull.

 7        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next one.  182.

 8        A.   The thing is, I have to say it here, because then there won't be

 9     the opportunity, I think, I don't know.  In fact, it was an incredible

10     luck to find this piece of skull just on one dig that day.  Because in

11     reality this place has been fully disturbed.  So it was more or less

12     empty when we did these searches.  Believing it was full, we found this

13     piece of skull.  But, in reality, as the expert will explain when he will

14     describe the exhumation there, this place had been totally disturbed.

15        Q.   All right.  So now we're at 182.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question.

17             The part of the skull, did that reveal any information about the

18     cause of death of the person involved?

19             THE WITNESS:  No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS:  Certainly not.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   So 182.

25        A.   Yes, so it's -- that's also elements found on the -- on the

Page 9764

 1     surface.  The expert with us that day was Jose Pablo Baraybar and he is

 2     the one who separated the pieces of bones according to what they are and

 3     these were elements of skulls found in a specific area of the execution

 4     site.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next one.  183.

 6             Who is this and what is this?

 7        A.   This is an investigator of our team, Asif Syed.  And this is a

 8     result of a collection that we did on the surface prior the exhumation, a

 9     collection of shell casings.

10        Q.   All right.  And we have one more photograph for the dam.  184.

11        A.   I just use the opportunity also to add something regarding the

12     shell casings.

13             The interests for them is, aside that their presence show that

14     some shooting had occurred there, it is meant to match -- to make matches

15     with other sites where we could compare the shell casings with.  That's

16     another expertise aspect, but the collection of shell casings on the

17     surface, very important for later on, matched them with the content of

18     the primary graves and later on comparison with the secondary ones also.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say there are matches, is that the type of

20     ammunition or is it the specific match as a piece of ammunition fired by

21     a specific weapon?

22             THE WITNESS:  It's a specific shell casing fired from a specific

23     weapon comparison based on the marks left by the extractor.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

25             Please proceed.

Page 9765

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   All right.  Last Petkovci photo is 184.  And we see you've made

 3     some markings.  What does this indicate in relation to what was told to

 4     you?

 5        A.   So this is the rough - again, rough - estimate of the surface of

 6     the plateau that was used.  The -- this assessment is made -- is made

 7     based on the declaration of the survivor who could see the -- the amount

 8     and the spreading of these bodies and also according to the items that we

 9     found.  It's the area where we found the shell casings, pieces of skull.

10     All these elements of human bones could come also from the disturbance

11     but they were so spread that they could come also from other things.

12             As an example, the survivor claims that at some point, one of the

13     shooters requested another one to stop shooting people in the head

14     because of the bad smell that it created.  And we found in one area which

15     is, in reality, if I recall well, more or less, the bottom right of

16     this -- of this crime scene, a lot of pieces of skull.  This is why we

17     showed the previous photograph with some of these pieces found.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, could I go back for a second to my

19     previous questions.

20             When you were talking about matching, matches --

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- what we see on this photograph seems to be shell

23     casings rather than bullets.  Did you find shell casings as well at the

24     other places?

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I mean, on the execution sites we always

Page 9766

 1     collected the shell casings.  Shell casings not the bullets.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS:  The comparison will be then made by the extractor

 4     marks --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And did you find shell casings as well at the

 6     places where you found bodies?  Because you're talking about a match --

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- caused by the extractor.  Often you'll find in

 9     bodies, remains of bullets.  But did you find, then, at the place where

10     you found the bodies, did you find shell casings as well?

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  There will be a full --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay --

13             THE WITNESS:  -- testimony of our team member who -- dedicated

14     himself to explain all the forensics connected with all these sites.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, this may be a good time to break.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If you think it is a good time, it is a good time.

19             We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, the Chamber was informed that you had

24     a preliminary question to raise.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

Page 9767

 1             Could we go into private session briefly.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9768











11 Page 9768 redacted. Private session.















Page 9769

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile -- well, one second.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             Meanwhile, I use the opportunity to deliver a clarification with

20     regard to amendments to Rule 65 ter summaries.

21             On the 24th of August of last year, the Chamber provided the

22     parties with general guidance with regard to amendments to the

23     Rule 65 ter witness summaries.  On the 11th of December, the Defence

24     asked for clarifications concerning this guidance.  Specifically, the

25     Defence inquired how far in advance of a witness's testimony a

Page 9770

 1     Rule 65 ter summary may still be amended.  It also queried whether

 2     evidence outside the scope of the Rule 65 ter summary but included in a

 3     non-tendered prior statement of the witness is considered to put the

 4     Defence on notice of an amendment to the Rule 65 ter summary.

 5             On the 14th of February, 2013, the Prosecution made further

 6     submissions.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ruez, if you would allow me to finish reading a

 9     short clarification.

10             The Chamber now provides the parties with the requested

11     clarifications on the amendments of Rule 65 ter witness summaries.

12             The Chamber cannot specify how much time in advance of a

13     testimony a Rule 65 ter summary should be amended in order to give the

14     opposing party sufficient notice.  Referring to the general guidance of

15     the 24th of August of last year, it is rather incumbent on the opposing

16     party to argue that a specific amendment is not given sufficiently in

17     advance so as to justify a remedy; for example, a request for delaying

18     the testimony of the witness.  When contemplating such a request, the

19     Chamber will consider, in particular, the time between the amendment and

20     the testimony and the nature of the amendment.  The opposing party can be

21     sufficiently put on notice of such an amendment through different means;

22     for example, by announcements in court, by announcements through informal

23     communication, or by tendering a statement whose scope goes beyond the

24     Rule 65 ter summary.  However, mere disclosure of such a statement is

25     insufficient to put the other party on notice.

Page 9771

 1             This concludes the Chamber's clarification on this matter.

 2             Somewhat related to this, recalling the Chamber's guidance of the

 3     24th of August, 2012, that there's no need to formally request amendments

 4     to the Rule 65 ter summaries of witnesses, the Prosecution's motion of

 5     the 8th of March, 2013, in relation to Witness RM060 is hereby declared

 6     moot.

 7             Before we continue, Mr. Ruez, in your absence, we briefly dealt

 8     with a scheduling issue.  Your testimony started later than expected due

 9     to some health issues in relation to Mr. Mladic, which has, of course,

10     created some problems.

11             Now, for next week, a witness is scheduled for whom it would be

12     very disturbing if we would change the date of his testimony.  For later

13     that week, arrangements are made with interpretation which are very

14     difficult to change, which means that either we would have to change the

15     schedule for the witness early next week, or to continue your

16     cross-examination at a later date.

17             The Chamber has considered it.  The Chamber also considers the

18     other witness to be far more vulnerable than you are, and, therefore,

19     seeks your co-operation in not finishing early next week your testimony

20     during cross-examination but to come back at a later stage.

21             I see you're nodding yes.  If that is consent, then the Chamber

22     highly appreciates your co-operative attitude.

23             THE WITNESS:  It is full consent.  I stay at the disposal of the

24     Court.  Whenever you want.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Ruez, for that.

Page 9772

 1             Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   Okay.  We are now finished up with Petkovci and the dam.

 4             The next chapter you entitle:  "The Rocevic school."  Can you

 5     tell us, is the Rocevic school connected in your investigation with any

 6     particular possible execution site?  Just as a brief prelude.

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8        Q.   And which execution site did the investigation reveal connected?

 9        A.   An execution that took place a little more north of Zvornik,

10     which is the one we call Kozluk.

11        Q.   And did the investigation reveal any survivors to that execution?

12        A.   No, there is no survivor at our knowledge of this execution.  We

13     got the initial information through a channel that, in fact, led one of

14     our team members, Jan Kruszewski, to interview a witness who was a

15     refugee in Germany.  This man was in contact with former neighbours in

16     this area, and they had provided him with information that, at that

17     moment, executions had taken place nearby at the location of Kozluk and

18     gave precise indications with a little drawing of an area which was an

19     area of gravel pits with one of these pits named the Ferida pit.

20             So based on this information, we made a request for aerial

21     imagery that enabled us to identify a suspect location at Kozluk.

22        Q.   All right.  We'll go through your photos, of course, bearing in

23     mind we don't have survivors that you're basing some of this information

24     on, so we'll just learn as -- as we go about the investigation.

25             So let's go to 185 now.

Page 9773

 1             And we, again, see your familiar yellow circle and how it is

 2     north of Petkovci and north of Kozluk, so I think that is explanatory.

 3     So let's go to the next one.  186.

 4             What is this?

 5        A.   So this is a photograph I took from the school of Rocevic.  It is

 6     on top of a hill.  Without in fact knowing at the time I took the

 7     picture - might be in 1998, I think, this photograph - the only reason

 8     why I -- I took it at that time was that each time we were moving north

 9     in this area, knowing that the sites were moving north with the

10     chronology of the dates, this one is 15, now we know.  It was strange

11     that this facility had not been used, so just as a preliminary measure,

12     let's say, I took these photographs because we only learned after my

13     departure from the Tribunal, from Bosnian Serb soldiers who were later on

14     interviewed and who were present there, I don't -- I never accessed their

15     interviews, that, indeed, the 15 of July they were guarding the prisoners

16     on this spot.  But it is for me indirect information that I got after my

17     departure from the Tribunal.

18        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 187.

19        A.   This is a view of this same school seen from the back.  So not

20     visible from the road.  So you see it's a big structure.  And at the left

21     of it, is the same type of gym that -- classic gymnasium of these type of

22     schools.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let's leave the school now and go to the chapter you call

24     "The Kozluk execution site," 188.

25        A.   This map shows the location of the school in respect with the

Page 9774

 1     location of the grave.

 2             To reach this spot, one has to drive south towards Kozluk and a

 3     little bit Kozluk town and then take a sharp curve to a dirt road that

 4     leads towards a large open space along the Drina river.

 5        Q.   So we can take it that this red -- red mark is the site you're

 6     speaking of?

 7        A.   Yes.  The markings are yellow circles for detention sites, and

 8     these red stars for execution sites.

 9        Q.   Let's go to 189.

10             Tell us about this.

11        A.   So this is a view looking towards south.  It's a photograph I

12     took from a helicopter.  At the distance, you can see Kozluk town.  At

13     the -- at your right, a bit in the back, would be the location of the

14     school.  And just at the edge of the Drina river is this area of gravel

15     pits with one suspect site that I believe is the location of the

16     execution site.

17        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next shot.  190.

18             What's the significance of this?

19        A.   When taking the dirt road in direction of the execution site, one

20     has to pass in front of a -- of a bottle factory which is named Vitinka

21     factory.  This is of interest also, since this -- the employees of this

22     factory apparently use also these gravel pits to dump broken glass during

23     the embottlement, and this will have a significance later since we will

24     use in fact the labels of these bottles that were dumped on the Kozluk

25     site.  We found them later on in a secondary mass grave.  So these labels

Page 9775

 1     helped also in addition to shell casings to connect sites, each with

 2     another.

 3        Q.   All right.  191.

 4        A.   Next to the Vitinka embottlement factory is another facility

 5     which is a military facility that you have to pass in front to go to the

 6     site.  It's a military facility for the Drina Wolves.

 7        Q.   All right.  Let's --

 8        A.   A unit from the Drina Corps.

 9        Q.   Let's go on to 192.  Aerial image, split, dated two dates.

10             What do you make of this?

11        A.   So this is an imagery provided by the US.  At the left, you have

12     the photograph of this area of pits dated 5th July 1995.  The river, the

13     Drina river is totally at the left.  And this same area shown on

14     17 July shows an obvious heavy disturbance of the ground.

15        Q.   And what did that indicate to you?

16        A.   As soon as we see disturbed soil, when we are looking for these

17     sites, the assumption is immediately that this is a suspect mass

18     grave-site.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 193.

20        A.   When we arrived on the spot for our first preliminary visit, as I

21     said, we -- this area is also used by this company to drop their leftover

22     of broken glass.  Among -- among these things, we could also notice on

23     the ground obvious features which are human.  This is a shoe with -- with

24     a leg inside.  When we started to pull it out, we stopped quickly

25     because, in reality, we were already starting an exhumation because there

Page 9776

 1     was body and --

 2        Q.   Let's go to 194.

 3        A.   So this is another -- another suspect element found on the spot.

 4     We -- a shell casing in the shovel next to the yellow label.  There will

 5     be a closer shot of it.  There were shoes and things like this in the

 6     area.  And shell casings.

 7        Q.   Then let's -- let's go to 195.

 8             Is this what you're referring to?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.  It's one sample because we have a full video of this

10     first search.  I don't know if you would see it, but that is a sampling

11     of these items.  It's shell casings, human -- human remains.

12        Q.   And just to clarify, the last photograph, if we could go back to

13     that briefly, 194.

14             Now, we can't tell by looking at this what that is in this shoe.

15     Do you recall being there and actually examining what that was in the

16     shoe?

17        A.   There was a sock.  There might have been also a bone, I don't

18     remember.  We didn't take it with us.  We left it there.  It was dealt

19     with at a later stage by the full exhumation of this site.

20        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 196.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we briefly go to 195 again.  195, please.

22             Yeah, I would kindly ask to explain -- we see here the yellow

23     labelling.  Then the shell casing.  And there is another item.  Do you

24     know what it is?  Just below the shell casing.

25             THE WITNESS:  The yellow marking is just to spot the shell casing

Page 9777

 1     and the rest are pieces of broken glass that are visible all around this

 2     area.  It's a former Muslim grave -- graveyard also.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you told us earlier about the bottles from

 4     this factory.  Is that related to that?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  This is a glass dumped from the factory.

 6     There are also -- there were stacks of labels "Vitinka factory."  And, in

 7     fact, we went to this site.  It was the last site we visited --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm only talking about this piece of -- this

 9     little item on the shovel.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it's broken glass.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say this was a former Muslim graveyard?

13             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, in the area we also found broken gravestones.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 196.

16        A.   In the vicinity.  Not on the spot.  In the vicinity.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  In the vicinity.  And did you gain any information

18     as to until when it was used as a --

19             THE WITNESS:  No --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Muslim graveyard?

21             THE WITNESS:  -- we didn't investigate that part.  There was not

22     enough time for that.  Unfortunately, we had to deal with these

23     examinations quite in a hurry.  We had a tremendous amount of ongoing

24     activities at the same time especially this year 1996 and the following

25     ones.

Page 9778

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But the broken tombs were not at the places where

 2     you investigated the content of the soil?

 3             THE WITNESS:  No.  No, no.  When -- the expert who did the

 4     exhumation will develop certainly on this topic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 196.

 8        A.   So this -- again, the type of things that were visible on the

 9     ground.  Mixed also with broken glass, human remains.

10        Q.   Now, when you say the gravestones were in the vicinity, do you --

11     can you give us any kind of an estimate, you know, metres?  Are we

12     talking 1 metre, 2 metres or further?

13        A.   No, 100 -- 100, 150 metres.  I mean, for the gravestones that I

14     photographed, maybe the area is better mapped by the exhumation team, but

15     we were in the vicinity, not on the spot.

16        Q.   And I know as you referred to the expert -- referred to it, but

17     in your investigation, did you ever, aside from the presence of these

18     gravestones, find any indication that these bodies in this area were

19     actually just a Muslim graveyard?

20        A.   I will prefer to leave this to the -- to the expert who will

21     explain, I think, in detail the way the execution took place, how the

22     bodies were dumped and things like that.

23        Q.   They, in fact, may not, but we'll go on.  That's all right --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness feels not comfortable in giving these

25     kinds of explanations which require perhaps a thorough knowledge and

Page 9779

 1     perhaps even some expert knowledge, we should accept this.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   All right.  Let's -- that finishes up that site and we now move

 5     on in your chapter to the Pilica school.  197.

 6        A.   So still continuing north, Rocevic being 15 July.  On the 15th,

 7     prisoners continued -- it was the end of the evacuation of Bratunac, and

 8     the last prisoners were taken north at the extreme north of -- of the

 9     Drina Corps limit of area of responsibility to a location named Pilica,

10     to a school.  The Luke school, the school of Luke.

11        Q.   And let's go to 198.

12        A.   So this is an aerial image of the school.  There is a religious

13     monument under construction that was not there at the time of the events.

14     The yellow arrow points to the main building, the school building.  And

15     next to the school building is a big gym.

16        Q.   All right.  And what execution site, if any, did the

17     investigation reveal was related to this school?

18        A.   The prisoners who were taken to this school the 15 were executed

19     at Branjevo farm the following day.

20        Q.   And did the investigation reveal any survivors of the execution

21     of the -- of those people?

22        A.   Yes.  Two -- two persons claim having survived the execution at

23     Branjevo.

24        Q.   And did you receive their information which you have based some

25     of these photos on?

Page 9780

 1        A.   Yes.  The witness, as far as I remember well what he said,

 2     initially arriving by night had to get out of the gym in order to fetch

 3     water.  And on his way to fetch the water, to a location he described, on

 4     his way back, he could see one bus of prisoners arriving.  Apparently the

 5     facility was full, and he could see that as soon as these people were

 6     taken out of the bus they were shot.  And he returned to the gym.

 7        Q.   Now, after receiving that information, did you have a chance to

 8     go to the school and examine it?

 9        A.   Yes.  Since he described the entrance, we photographed the -- the

10     things that looked in the way he had described them.

11        Q.   All right.  Let's go to that, then.  199, being your first

12     photograph.

13        A.   So this one is the -- shows, in fact, the arrival at the school.

14     This dirt road is leading to the school.  This is a place where a vehicle

15     would stop, and the people then walked towards the entrance which is at

16     the left of the building.

17        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 200.

18        A.   And this is the area where the alleged execution of -- of the

19     last arrived took place.

20        Q.   I'm sorry, we -- we better go back to 199 because it's not clear

21     which one you're talking about, about the execution.

22        A.   This -- this spot here is the spot where the witness described

23     the fact that those who were in one bus arriving night were taken out and

24     shot here.

25        Q.   When you say "here," where do you mean?

Page 9781

 1        A.   Here in this area, just in front of this picture, where the trees

 2     are.

 3        Q.   On --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We can't see what the witness is pointing at.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I could mark it with the pen.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Or describe it in detail.

 7             THE WITNESS:  It's more or less the middle where the two bars of

 8     the picture, the cut of these two pictures, the picture in the middle is

 9     more or less the area.  I will give more indications a bit later

10     regarding where we found the shell casings.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Would it be the grassy area that we see?

13        A.   Yeah, just behind the little fence.  In between the little fence

14     and the school.

15        Q.   All right.  And we'll go to some other photos that will, as you

16     say, may help that.  Let's go to 200.

17        A.   This witness says that he entered the school by walking along

18     this -- a wall like this one.  Turned right to access the school.

19        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 201.

20        A.   So this is both the access and exit.  This is -- at this exit

21     that people were blindfolded before getting on board of buses.  And

22     that's the entrance.

23             We also tried to find the water source he was talking about.

24        Q.   Let's go to 202.

25        A.   So, indeed, we -- we found a water source that matched the

Page 9782

 1     description that he gave.  And the arrow points to -- to this spot.  We

 2     to have go down a little path in the vegetation and then there is a water

 3     source.  And on the way up to this water source, we will see what type

 4     of -- of sight he had.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 203 then.

 6        A.   So this is the -- this is the spot.

 7        Q.   The water source?

 8        A.   The water source.

 9        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Let's go to 204.

10             We again --

11        A.   Yeah --

12        Q.   -- see this school.  Can you relate this to the other photos

13     we've seen?

14        A.   Yes.  The other photo was taken more from the right, but this one

15     is taken in the angle which is the one that this witness had when he was

16     getting out of the -- this path leading to the water source.  Going out,

17     he had a clear view on -- on this area, which is the area that he

18     designated as being the one of this small-scale execution that took place

19     here on the spot.

20        Q.   So were you in your examination of the school testing his account

21     to see if he could see what he said he saw?

22        A.   The goal being to check the validity of what he said.  Indeed,

23     had we not been able to found an angle of view for him to be able to see

24     this place would have been a problem, but ... what we -- what we could

25     see on the ground matched what -- matched the description that the

Page 9783

 1     witness gave.

 2        Q.   And the -- did you ever actually go back to this area with this

 3     witness?  If you recall.

 4        A.   We ... I don't recall.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And --

 6        A.   I think we did.

 7        Q.   Do you remember, in looking at your list, which -- which witness

 8     it -- it was?  Or without looking at your list.

 9        A.   No, no, I will need to look at the list because of the

10     code-names.  RM346.

11        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 205.

12             What -- where's this?

13        A.   So this is the facade of the building, of the front face of the

14     building.  The area -- where the area of the alleged execution took

15     place.  That's a suspect trace on the window.

16        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 206.

17        A.   On the -- on the wall also of the angle of the -- of the building

18     were some suspect impacts, as well as --

19        Q.   Okay.  I think we get a better view at 207.

20             Can you explain this?

21        A.   So this is the -- the angle of the school, and though some

22     concrete has been put on the holes, they are also suspect traces in that

23     location.

24        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 208.

25        A.   So using a metal detector, we tried to find shell casings in the

Page 9784

 1     vicinity of the place where this execution was -- had allegedly taken

 2     place.  Children were already in the school, so one could assume that

 3     shell casings had been taken away.  But we found some embedded in the

 4     soil, both on the -- on the gravel road and also on -- in this area where

 5     the trees are.

 6        Q.   So your red oval in the top shot and your rectangle in the bottom

 7     shot --

 8        A.   Yes --

 9        Q.   -- are what?

10        A.   The area where we found shell casings --

11        Q.   All right.

12        A.   -- embedded in the soil.

13        Q.   All right.  Now, let's -- that finishes the school.  We now go on

14     to Branjevo farm.  And I would like it if we could show -- it's a very

15     brief helicopter flight, 65 ter 22432A.

16             And you can, if you recognise it or remember it, just tell us,

17     after looking at it, what you think this is.  If we've got the right

18     clip.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20        A.   Oh, we are too much -- we are already arriving at Branjevo farm

21     here.

22        Q.   All right.  And --

23        A.   It's supposed to start from Luke school, I assume.

24        Q.   I think I cut the school out.  So can you tell us what this is?

25        A.   Okay.  So at this moment it's the arrival already at the Branjevo

Page 9785

 1     farm.

 2             Here is -- here is the farm.

 3        Q.   We are at 00:30:6.

 4        A.   At the -- at the top of the picture is the -- is the Drina river.

 5     From the hill -- from the Branjevo farm you don't see anything behind the

 6     hill.  The asphalt road going from -- from Kozluk to the north is not

 7     visible.  The school is -- the farm is totally unvisible from the road

 8     but it's at -- the asphalt road is behind this hill and just after that

 9     is already the Drina river.  So this is the access path to the entrance

10     of military farm.  And the building completely at the left is the garage

11     and it's next to this garage, that was the resting area for the members

12     of the 10th Sabotage Detachment who were present on the spot.

13        Q.   When you say garage completely to the left, does it look like it

14     has a white -- a white roof on this?

15        A.   Yes, yes.  It's the little -- the structure next to this -- the

16     admin building which is the building at the left with the red roof.

17        Q.   All right.  And does this look anything like this today, if

18     someone was to look at Google Earth or Maps, for example?

19        A.   No.  Now it is a brand new settlement of houses, the entire --

20     the entire area.

21        Q.   All right.  Let's continue the flight.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23        A.   At the bottom right, there are pigstries [sic] but here at the

24     left of the picture, we will see the large field that was used for the

25     execution.

Page 9786

 1        Q.   Okay.  I think you meant pigsties at 35:2?

 2        A.   Pigsty, yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let's keep going.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we have some more photographs.

 5             And I would offer that brief clip into evidence as it gives a

 6     nice aerial view.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 8             Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22432A receives number P1131,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P1131 is admitted.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   And could we go to 209 which is the map.  And perhaps you can

15     orient us with what you said about the river and the location of the

16     Branjevo farm.  We see that again in the red star, I take it.

17        A.   Yes.  So at the -- the star is, in fact, just behind this hill,

18     and you have this dirt road leading to it.  And at the right hand is the

19     asphalt road, the national road going from north to south along the

20     Drina.

21        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next shot, 210.  We have a

22     5 July aerial image.  And can you tell us about that.

23        A.   This is a picture dated 5th July, as it is written on it.  At

24     the top leading to the farm is this -- the entrance of the -- of the

25     farm.  At the top, the little dirt road is not the national road.  It's

Page 9787

 1     the dirt road leading towards Pilica and the national road.  And at the

 2     left of the picture, the open field is the execution area.

 3             The --

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let me interrupt you briefly.  You've marked some other

 5     photos a few places down the line, so I think that is -- we can -- we'll

 6     get some detail at that point, I think.

 7        A.   Mm-hm, yep.

 8        Q.   Let's go to the next shot.

 9             Tell us what this is.

10        A.   This is a picture taken early 1996.  This is the access to the

11     farm.  This is the location where the buses arrived on 16 July and were

12     parking, unloading the people, who were then taken to the right of this

13     picture where the -- the arrow points to the label "garage."

14             Next to this garage is a tree which is described by the witness.

15     And completely at the right, where the helicopter is at this moment

16     positioned, is the execution field and a bit further will be the mass

17     grave.

18        Q.   And to be absolutely clear, you're making these conclusions based

19     on just what the witnesses told you.

20        A.   Yes, yes.  All the elements regarding where they moved, what they

21     saw is coming from them.  Then regarding the execution site, it's also

22     their information because they were led on this field, led to stand,

23     shot, and they were advancing like this in rows.  And also the knowledge

24     comes from the observations we made on the ground, the elements we

25     collected.

Page 9788

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   We will, I think, more in detail on this with the next pictures.

 3        Q.   And before we get there, this helicopter, what's it doing there?

 4        A.   This helicopter was there because that day this picture was taken

 5     the day of a visit of Madeleine Albright, who was Secretary of State, and

 6     we brought them to this -- to this spot.  In fact, we used the mission of

 7     Madeleine Albright in order to -- the days before, rather than going

 8     where she intended to go, a bit like the John Shattuck mission, she

 9     intended first to return to the Nova Kasaba site.  But since we had had

10     no possibility of access to this farm before, we had then the possibility

11     to use the military assets to find the location so that she could then

12     come to this spot because there was a fresh arrest of very important

13     witness, Drazen Erdemovic, who talked about this location, so we wanted

14     to find it quickly.

15        Q.   So who went to this site in the helicopter?

16        A.   We went with -- I found this site two days before, and that day,

17     Madeleine Albright with a journalist and her crew went to the spot.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, if you're short in time, is it really

19     that relevant that -- who went there, which president, which prime

20     minister or which minister of foreign affairs.

21             Please move on.  What we're interested in primarily is to hear

22     from the witness what he heard or read in statements and how that trigged

23     him to see locations and to make photographs and what he found there.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  If you would bear with me, I

25     have a tie-up for this because I share your -- I don't usually like to

Page 9789

 1     get involved with ministers in these cases, but there is one tie-up which

 2     I think you'll want to see.  I may be wrong but --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll then hear from -- about that.  Please

 4     proceed.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Do you remember the date that you went to the farm with

 7     Madeleine Albright?

 8        A.   Precisely not.  I reviewed that recently.  I think 21st March.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Have you had a --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Which year?

11             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.  1996, 1996.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   And did we show you a page of what we told you we believed was a

14     page out of the Mladic diary?

15        A.   Yes, you did.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we see that now.  It's P00348.  E-court 47,

17     48, English; 44, 45, B/C/S.  English 47; B/C/S 44.

18        Q.   Now we can see this diary.  And I don't intend to spend much time

19     on this.  But it's dated 22nd of March, if your memory is correct, the

20     day after you went there with Madeleine Albright.  And we see a note

21     related to --

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, it just turned into Serbian.  If we could

23     see the English.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps it's not the right page.  You said

25     page 47?

Page 9790

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  This might be the right page.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's now the 22nd of March.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And we see the note under

 5     President Karadzic's name:

 6             "A big show was put on for Albright.  She expected they would

 7     find 1200 Muslim bodies but they found some five bodies."

 8        Q.   Now when you went there with Madeleine Albright or that time

 9     before, did you find any bodies?

10        A.   Not really.  The days we find -- the 19 of March when we went

11     there, we could find -- we could find the site.  What we could see moving

12     towards it was shoes, first some shoes.  Then some bones, one skull.  And

13     when we ended up finding the area of the mass grave, there was one --

14     obvious body parts on the top of a body that had been pushed by a heavy

15     machine a bit out of the soil, so this body was more or less popping out

16     of the soil.  But we did not find five bodies.  We find elements of

17     bodies.

18        Q.   Did the -- at the time of the investigation, had the -- had the

19     number 1200 come up from any source?

20        A.   Yes, it had come out from press information released, following

21     information provided by Drazen Erdemovic.

22        Q.   And are you aware of -- after your visit to this site with

23     Ms. Albright, did she give any press conferences you're aware of?

24        A.   Yes, she did.  She gave a press conference in the evening, in

25     Sarajevo, I think.  It was at the US embassy.  And the aerial imagery was

Page 9791

 1     publicly released that day, the aerial imagery related to the

 2     Branjevo farm.

 3        Q.   All right.  And just one more reference, I would like to ask you

 4     if it had any possible reference to your investigation.  As we go down a

 5     few more lines we see it says:

 6             "Fico was here last night and he says that those two would tell

 7     the story about the," crossed out The Hague, "Srebrenica to The Hague."

 8             Does -- does that --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, may I interrupt you.  I read:

10             "... would sell the story ..."

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ah, I missed that --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said:  "Tell the story."  In that way it is

13     recorded.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  The next Tribunal I hope will have

15     bigger print.  "Sell the story."  And that's a very important point,

16     actually.

17        Q.   Mr. Ruez, does that bit of information have any meaning to you or

18     any possible connection to events at that time and the investigation?

19        A.   In my personal view, this is a direct reference to the fact that

20     since Drazen Erdemovic and Captain Radoslav Kremenovic were under arrest

21     in Serbia and at the edge of being handed over to the ICTY, these are the

22     two ready to sell out the story that the general is referring to in his

23     book.  But this is my personal opinion.

24        Q.   All right.  Let's go on to your discussion further.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, just for the record.

Page 9792

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  It is obvious that is not the general who is

 3     speaking.  I would just for that to be clarified.  It is obviously

 4     Radovan Karadzic speaking if it is general's book and not the general.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let have a look.  We see -- we see --

 6             No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.  You know why --

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... because of the translations

 8     so that's why he's complaining.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, who is speaking, at least what we see on top

10     of that, that it says "President Karadzic" and no other interlocutor is

11     specifically mentioned up till where we read this text.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I mean, that's -- the interpretation of all

14     this is a different matter, who is speaking.  But unless the witness

15     would know who spoke there, but ...

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.  Perhaps -- and I will discuss this with

17     Mr. Lukic, we may be able to agree that this is General Mladic taking

18     notes on what President Karadzic is telling him.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's --

20             MR. LUKIC:  I'm just telling what that note says.  It says:

21     "President Karadzic," semi-colon, and it was quoted whoever wrote it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently Mr. Lukic had some concerns as if these

23     words would have been presented as the words of Mr. Mladic; whereas he

24     says that from the document itself, he understands it to be the words

25     spoken by Mr. Karadzic.

Page 9793

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And it's the Prosecution position that we

 2     agree.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So -- apparently there seems to be no

 4     conflict there.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we go on.  Do we then correct the

 7     witness's statement at page 51, line 11, where he says the story that the

 8     general is referring to.  He is -- he is mentioning the general here

 9     whoever the general is.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I understood to be to the general in writing his

11     notes.

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  I was just -- indeed that was not

13     precise enough --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be full agreement that in this

15     notebook, the author of the notebook refers to the words spoken by

16     Mr. Karadzic.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That being it, please proceed.

19             I'm looking at the clock, Mr. McCloskey.  I think it is time for

20     a break.

21             Could we have -- at the same time, perhaps the witness could

22     already be escorted out of the courtroom.

23             Could I have the time from Madam Registrar.

24             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Ruez.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 9794

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, how much time you think you'd still

 2     need?

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would hope, if we get back on track, I --

 4     30 minutes of testimony.  I also have one -- about a seven-minute video

 5     of -- of a secondary mass grave exhumation, if I could ask --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You go beyond your estimate.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Sometimes we cannot fit into time constraints, so we

 8     do not have objections if Mr. McCloskey needs more time.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  40 minutes after the break, Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we'll resume at quarter

12     past 12.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go back to the -- the book, to

18     e-court page 212.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Which the Chamber recognises as exactly the same

20     location as we looked at before on the aerial view.  And also, in view of

21     what we have seen on the helicopter view.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 9795

 1        Q.   Mr. Ruez, we're now back at page 212 and excuse me, if we -- if

 2     we -- we are running out of time, so excuse me, if we may go through

 3     this.

 4             I think we all recognise 212 as the Branjevo farm.  That's

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes, indeed.

 7        Q.   Let's go to 213.

 8             Is this the fruit tree by the garage that you spoke about one of

 9     the witnesses told you?

10        A.   Yes, it is.  And behind this tree is the open space of the

11     execution site.

12        Q.   Let's go to 214.

13             What's this?

14        A.   So this is the -- the area we now know is the execution site.

15     And this is the first visit we did, the 19.  And at the edge of this

16     site, on the left, this is where we found suspect items.

17        Q.   And 19 March --

18        A.   March 1996.

19        Q.   Right.  Okay.  Now, what kind of suspect items?

20        A.   We will see bones and the skull I was talking about.  Shoes.  I

21     mean, these elements were found going towards the direction of the

22     location of the grave.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let's go there.  215.

24             Is this the shoe you're talking about?

25        A.   Yes.  The first thing was just a shoe.

Page 9796

 1        Q.   Let's go to 216.

 2        A.   Then various bones.  I'm not an expert but if I recall well it

 3     was designated being a piece of a hip, a rib, and a femur.

 4        Q.   217.

 5        A.   And the skull I was referring to.  There is no photograph of body

 6     part.

 7        Q.   All right.  And let's go directly to 219, which is similar to

 8     218, but -- but you have made observations on that so let's go to 219.

 9     And we see the places you've described, the access, the garage.

10             Now let me start with bodies.  Why do you mark what -- you know,

11     is obviously a great distance that -- those little marks as bodies?

12        A.   The only strange thing is the colours, because the markings

13     access to farm and garage are mine.  The other ones were white at the

14     origin provided by the provider.  The designation bodies, piles of earth,

15     probable bodies, and excavated digging is not something that I added to

16     this picture.

17        Q.   So that's the United States?

18        A.   This is the United States.

19        Q.   Did the investigation reveal any disagreement with their

20     conclusions?

21        A.   I mean, I couldn't see the probable bodies because they were

22     later on in the grave.  The excavator digging, it's -- it's the provider

23     who tells that this is an excavator digging.  Same thing for the dots on

24     the ground with dotted line "bodies," and we conducted a search for shell

25     casings on the area marked "bodies" which enabled us to determine the

Page 9797

 1     rough size, indeed, of this execution site.

 2        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 220.

 3             What's the purpose -- what does this show us?

 4        A.   This shows that between July 5th and 21st September the soil has

 5     changed.  The earliest picture being at the right.  The arrow shows the

 6     change in the terrain, pointing to a now burial area.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now we see that the next chapter is called:  "The

 8     Pilica Dom."  Can you tell us how it was that you were attracted to the

 9     Pilica Dom for your investigation, briefly?

10        A.   The only source of information for this crime scene was

11     Drazen Erdemovic, since we have no knowledge about any survivor from this

12     Pilica Dom.  According to what Erdemovic said, after they had finished

13     the execution at the Branjevo farm, they moved to Pilica village and went

14     to a cafe with a lieutenant-colonel that they had met at the

15     Zvornik Brigade.  And meanwhile they were drinking in this cafe, he

16     witnessed the killing of those who were inside this Dom of culture.

17        Q.   And after receiving that account, did you go to the -- Pilica and

18     track down the various things he said and -- and is that the next shots

19     in your book?

20        A.   Yes, indeed.

21        Q.   Okay.  Let's go there.  223.

22        A.   So at the left, this is -- the picture is facing north.  At the

23     left of the picture is this house of culture, the Dom Kulture.

24             The buses stop in front and the prisoners were taken inside.  And

25     the cafe just in front is the one marked with the arrow "cafe."

Page 9798

 1        Q.   Let's go to 224.

 2             What's this, this building?

 3        A.   So this is the front facade facing the road of this Dom of

 4     culture.  On the first floor was also the mayor's office.  And at the

 5     ground floor, a little communication centre, telephone centre.

 6        Q.   Okay.  225.

 7        A.   This is an outside view of the cafe that is just opposite side of

 8     the road facing the building.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's -- 226.

10        A.   This is a view from the inside of the cafe, so the view that

11     those who were drinking inside had from what was happening outside.  One

12     can see that there is a -- a little kiosk obstructing the view that

13     enables to see the entrance door of the Dom of culture, but Erdemovic

14     said that he heard the -- the sounds of the execution and also people who

15     ran out of this and were shot outside on the street.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just seek clarification there.

17             You said it deprives the view of the entrance door.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  To be quite honest, it looks to me as if it is the

20     car that prevents the view on the entrance door, because the kiosk just

21     covers the area to the corner of the building.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Whereas the first item we then see is a door which

24     is not totally visible because the car is in front of it.

25             Or is there any other door?

Page 9799

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  There is another door because the entrance is

 2     not at the front.  It is on the side of the building, just the angle you

 3     talked about obstructed by this kiosk.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 5             Let's then move on.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Let's go to 227, please.  How does this fit into what is being

 8     said?

 9        A.   Yes, so the kiosk would be now at our left, just out of the frame

10     of the picture.  The front facade that can you recognise but the main

11     important part of it is on the right hand.  It is the -- the big room

12     that is used for theatre or cinema.

13        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to the next page.  228.

14             What's this?

15        A.   This is the -- the access to the inside of this building.  The

16     left door is going upstairs to the first -- to an upper floor, from where

17     the projectionist can show his films.  There were two openings at the top

18     of this -- of this building, showing the room inside.  We will see that

19     on other pictures.

20             And the door on the -- the metal door on the right is the door --

21     the entrance door of this Dom of culture.

22        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 230.

23        A.   No, we had another one before.

24        Q.   Yeah, I skipped it, but if you think --

25        A.   Yeah, it is important.

Page 9800

 1        Q.   Okay.  Let's go back.  What is -- what's 229?

 2        A.   229.  So this picture shows the door as we -- the first time we

 3     arrived there.  There was -- the door was locked and as you can see there

 4     are even spider nests in between these doors.  The importance of it is

 5     that after this place had been cleaned, no one entered it.  So we were

 6     indeed the first ones to enter this location in 1996.  It had not been

 7     entered before apparently.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that because of the spider nests?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  The --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You think that spiders could not create a nest in,

11     well, let's say, three months or six months or --

12             THE WITNESS:  I would not think that this was indeed done just in

13     two months.  I think this was closed at the end -- in 1996 and 1995, and

14     that since then it was not entered.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I accept that you believe that.  But --

16             THE WITNESS:  It is my assumption.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I am exploring its -- you are assuming that.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   Can we go to the next photograph.  230.

23        A.   So seen from the top floor, as I told you, where the cabin of the

24     projectionist is, this is the site one can have and assume also that this

25     is the location from where the fire was opened on the people inside.

Page 9801

 1     According to the lieutenant-colonel Erdemovic was with, 500 people were

 2     kept inside this location.

 3        Q.   Let's go to the next picture.  231.

 4        A.   So this one shows the inside of a building, with some holes here,

 5     and Mr. John Gerns taking samples.

 6        Q.   Let's go to 232.  Is this possible -- possible blood on the wall

 7     of the culture centre?

 8        A.   Yes, indeed.  All this was confirmed as being of human origin.

 9     Gives an indication of the type of splashes that were visible on the

10     wall.

11        Q.   And 233.  Would that be the same?

12        A.   Yes, yes, it is the same.

13        Q.   And 234?

14        A.   244 [sic] it's the -- at the end of this -- this room where the

15     there is a little staircase going to -- it's again blood-stain and bullet

16     traces.  The place was obviously full of these.

17        Q.   Okay.  235.

18        A.   And completely at the end, also, these traces which appeared

19     then.  And then that is to be explosive residues.  Grenades were thrown

20     under the stage where apparently people tried to hide and where we also

21     collected a few items, such as an ID.

22             There is a full film about this first visit, but I bet there is

23     no time anyhow to show it.

24        Q.   Yes.  Let's go to the next, 236.

25             Tell us about this.

Page 9802

 1        A.   So this one is a picture of July 17, where we can see at the --

 2     in front of the entrance is a truck that is parked and also tire traces

 3     that lead to the back of this building, where there is also a rear door

 4     that I didn't take picture of but it's in the film.  And this is the

 5     cleaning process of this -- and one can assume it is the cleaning process

 6     of Dom of culture.  But aside this imagery, I learned from the

 7     Prosecution that you have a live witness talking about this cleaning

 8     process.

 9        Q.   All right.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ruez, may I ask who made these imprints,

11     track, traces, and rear door.

12             THE WITNESS:  I did them.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And on the right-hand lower corner, there's

14     something telling some numbers and then F-e-b, like February.

15             Can you tell us the significance of that.

16             THE WITNESS:  I have no clue about it.  I never asked myself the

17     question what this meant.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   And but for those strange orange markings that somehow became

21     orange in your other pictures, are these consistent that you're marking

22     yellow, the US stays with black and white?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   All right.  237.  What's this?

25        A.   So this indicates the -- the distance between the Dom and the

Page 9803

 1     Branjevo farm, believing that the bodies that were taken from the Dom of

 2     culture were brought back to be buried together with the bodies of the

 3     Branjevo farm.  This is the -- the way the road goes, I mean, the dirt

 4     road goes towards the Branjevo farm.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6        A.   One of the survivor, the following day, saw in this area a truck

 7     filled with bodies.  Probably so going towards this direction.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you say it's the distance.  It ends -- it starts

 9     at the culture Dom, it ends with an arrow.  So for distance --

10             THE WITNESS:  It's just behind this -- you know, as I said, just

11     behind the hill.  In fact, here, you can see the hill line.  And just

12     behind this arrow is the slope and the farm.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   All right.  Mr. Ruez, your next series of photographs, I think

17     you entitled:  "Disturbance photos."  Can you briefly explain the --

18     these disturbance -- why you're -- what part of the investigation is this

19     disturbance?  We've seen the -- before the alleged executions, no

20     disturbance, and then afterward we see disturbance.  But when you're

21     talking about disturbance now, are you talking about something else; and

22     if so, what?

23        A.   Yes.  The disturbances we were talking until now was a comparison

24     between the ground before the events of July.  But what happened in 1996

25     is once the exhumations had started, the -- we quickly realised that

Page 9804

 1     where a large number of bodies was expected to be found, only a small

 2     number was found.  And according to the archaeologists conducting these

 3     exhumations, the terrain had been -- these graves were obviously

 4     disturbed.  So additional imagery requests enabled to determine the

 5     event, and then there is another type of comparison to be done between

 6     how the ground looked after the initial burial and after possible removal

 7     of bodies.

 8        Q.   All right.  Then let's go there.  240.

 9             Now we see Orahovac and we see September 7th.  And so we're not

10     talking about July, the execution dates.  What does this tell you, this

11     split image, if anything?

12        A.   Yeah.  So on the left picture you can see the area which matches

13     the execution site.  Top of it is a railroad with exactly the same

14     orientation on 27 September.  One can see that the -- the ground has

15     dramatically changed between these two dates.  So if disturbance

16     happened, we know from these pictures that the event took place between

17     7 September 1995 -- I mean, 7 September and 27 September.

18        Q.   Can you tell from this photo which of the Orahovac sites we're

19     talking -- we're looking at here?

20        A.   Yes, this is the site Lazete 2.

21        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 241.  Is this Lazete 1?

22        A.   This is Lazete 1, and it's the same situation.  The ground

23     doesn't look the same between these two dates.  Something happened in

24     between the two.

25        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 242.  We're now at the Petkovci dam --

Page 9805

 1        A.   Yes --

 2        Q.   -- not very good photos but ...

 3        A.   No.  But good enough also to realise that again we have -- it's

 4     the same angle than the previous one.  We have a wood at the left and the

 5     top of the dam at the right.  And in between these two dates seems to be

 6     also some -- some change.

 7        Q.   And the -- did the archaeologist speak to this issue in the

 8     investigation?

 9        A.   Sorry?

10        Q.   Did the archaeologist talk about this -- I think as you've

11     said --

12        A.   Yes, absolutely.  They are the ones who later on will determine

13     the reality and sometimes the extent of the disturbance.  At the end of

14     1996, though several massive graves had been exhumed, only 500 bodies

15     were found at the end of 1996.

16        Q.   All right.  Let's go onto 243.

17        A.   So similar -- similar situation for the Kozluk site.  Between

18     7 and 27, additional disturbance of the ground.

19        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 244.

20        A.   So this picture also dated 27 September.  All the markings are

21     provided by the US.  There is a blow-up of the area where the garage is

22     located, where it points to a front loader and a backhoe who are present

23     there the 27.  And where the grave is located, there is a new excavated

24     trench.

25        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 22 -- excuse me, 245.  We see it's a

Page 9806

 1     photo labelled "ICTY exhumation 1996."  What is this in here for?

 2        A.   So this the result of the exhumation done at Branjevo during the

 3     summer 1996.  The picture shows the entire -- nearly the entire size, the

 4     original size of the mass grave, which was nearly empty except at the

 5     location where the three persons are standing, where there was a stack

 6     of -- a little bit more than 100 bodies that had been left in the grave.

 7     But only on -- on this small part of the grave bodies were left.

 8        Q.   246.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us where this is in relation to the

10     previous picture.  We have the newly excavated trench.  Is it there or is

11     at any other place?

12             THE WITNESS:  It is -- it is there.  It is in this newly

13     excavated trench.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   246.

17        A.   This shows the stack of bodies that were left in this small part

18     of the Branjevo grave.

19        Q.   And 247.

20        A.   The disturbance of these sites did not only happen in the area

21     north but also in the area south.  The mass grave of Glogova was also

22     disturbed.  And here is a picture dated - we have a series of them but

23     this one was selected - 30 October 1995.  There is work ongoing at

24     Glogova which is a large area, in fact, with several mass graves in

25     Glogova.  Since the bodies who were taken there were coming from various

Page 9807

 1     places, including all those from the Kravica -- I mean, part of those of

 2     the Kravica warehouse.  And on this picture, the provider spots a front

 3     loader who is digging in one of these graves.  The other ones on the

 4     opposite side are already disturbed when this photograph is taken.

 5        Q.   Okay.  You've shown us the -- some of the investigative evidence

 6     regarding this -- what you're calling a disturbance of these graves.

 7     Were you -- was the investigation ever able to track down where any

 8     bodies were taken from this disturbance, from any of these mass graves?

 9        A.   Yes, it did.

10        Q.   And there will, of course, be others testifying about this but

11     could we briefly go through that.  Let's start with 249.

12             We've got the Zeleni Jadar road segment which we may recall is

13     the road leading up to Srebrenica from the south.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   What are all these little markings you've done, ZJ-1 through 6, I

16     believe?

17        A.   Yeah.  So we had a confidential information about movements of

18     bodies in this area of Zeleni Jadar.  Imagery request enabled to add to

19     this information based on which we initially found two suspect spots but

20     in reality there were more in this area to be found.  And there are, in

21     fact, six sites connected to this investigation in the area of

22     Zeleni Jadar, which is quite a removed area, a bit dangerous to browse

23     through since there were minefields in this area during the time of

24     confrontation.  So it was a remote place.  We know that these bodies, in

25     fact, are the result of a disturbance of Glogova site, so they were taken

Page 9808

 1     to the opposite side of the enclave.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question in relation to the previous

 3     picture.

 4             You told us that this was disturbed earth.  And you said since

 5     the bodies who were taken there were coming from various places,

 6     including all those from the Kravica and part of those of the -- well, so

 7     you're telling us that this picture, the previous one, that's the -- let

 8     me see, that is ... I think it was [Overlapping speakers] ...

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, 247, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, 247.  Let's have a look.

11             Yes, 247.

12             And then you were asked:  Do you know where the bodies were

13     taken?

14             I did understand that the bodies were taken here.  And

15     Mr. McCloskey then asked you - let me see - he said:

16             "You've shown some of the investigative evidence regarding

17     this -- what you call disturbance.  Were you -- was the investigation

18     ever able to track down where any bodies were taken from this

19     disturbance?"

20             Whereas I understood your answer to be that this disturbance, as

21     we see it on our screen now, was the place where the bodies were taken.

22     So were they then taken again from that spot to other places, because

23     that's then a missing -- missing link in the story.

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Initially, those who were executed at the

25     Kravica warehouse were buried in a shallow grave nearby but then the

Page 9809

 1     bodies were taken to Glogova.  Glogova is also the location where the

 2     bodies of those killed in Bratunac were taken too.  And also an unknown

 3     amount of people shot alongside of the asphalt road were collected and

 4     Glogova was the final point for these dead bodies in the area.

 5             That was the situation by the end of July, but then the

 6     disturbance of this place took place, and the content of -- of this

 7     grave, of most of it, because in each circumstance bodies were left in

 8     these graves, by accident or on purpose, and all the content of Glogova

 9     was transferred in six smaller graves at Zeleni Jadar.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now I understand.  So they were taken sometimes from

11     the place of the execution to Glogova either as the first --

12             THE WITNESS:  First burial --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- first grave or sometimes even already as a

14     secondary grave because they had been buried already before.  And now

15     some of the bodies then were taken from here to their -- either their

16     secondary graves or their second secondary graves.

17             THE WITNESS:  Not really.  Because they were not buried yet.

18     Those who were taken here, it was their first burial spot.  That spot was

19     first burial spot.  Those killed in Bratunac were not initially buried in

20     Bratunac.  They were taken to this -- to this location.  This was the

21     main location for putting bodies killed in the south --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You said initially those who were executed at the

23     Kravica warehouse were buried in a shallow grave nearby but then the

24     bodies were taken to Glogova.

25             So for the --

Page 9810

 1             THE WITNESS:  Misunderstanding on my part.  I miss explanation.

 2             First they were taken to a shallow grave nearby where they left,

 3     the exhumation recovered them from that location, but then they changed

 4     the destination of the bodies killed in Kravica.  And those who had not

 5     been put in the first location were all put in Glogova where they were

 6     buried for the first time, these ones, and then they were later

 7     transferred to Zeleni Jadar.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It is clear to me now.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   Do you recall the name of that first location as Ravnici?

12        A.   Yes, Ravnici, indeed.  I didn't remember but ...

13        Q.   Now, fundamentally, did the same thing happen at the Orahovac

14     executions, the Kozluk executions, the Branjevo farm executions?

15        A.   It happened in all -- all of the places, so yes, the [overlapping

16     speakers] --

17        Q.   I left one out, Petkovci.

18        A.   Petkovci.  It happened on all of these spots.  The only spots it

19     did not happen is the Cerska valley, and the two Nova -- the three graves

20     at Nova Kasaba.  In two graves Nova Kasaba, one which is in between

21     Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje.  Because they are small.  The assumption

22     is because they are small graves.  They disturbed the big graves.  A

23     grave with 80 or 100 bodies apparently was not too much of concern.  But

24     a grave with hundreds in it was a big concern.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You are invited not to overlap with Mr. McCloskey

Page 9811

 1     and to slow down slightly.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   Would it be fair to say that the bodies from Orahovac were --

 5     some were found in secondary graves along the Hodzici road, as you have

 6     noted in this book on page 283?

 7        A.   I don't see the picture.

 8        Q.   It's coming.  Sorry.  253.  My fault.

 9        A.   Yeah, there was a map that could have been useful before, but we

10     can use this.  But the map would be of relevance to spot the location.

11        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 2 -- excuse me, 252.

12        A.   So, yes, indeed.  So along this -- this road, we were provided

13     with information from US government linked with imagery with some suspect

14     sites.  So each time we received information about suspect sites, the

15     first thing we did was go there and dig in these places.  In order to

16     determine if multiple remains were to be found, this is what we did, as

17     like Zeleni Jadar, and so we went to probe these sites.

18             All of these secondary sites were probe found and probed during

19     the year 1997, all of them.  So along this road named Hodzici, which was

20     a former road linking with Tuzla.  It's a dirt road, remote area, and

21     this is where they were dropped.  We now know from the expert reports

22     that these bodies are those coming from Orahovac.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Let's go to 254.  Your map, the Liplje road segment,

24     we see -- we see four.  What does that mean?

25        A.   So again it is the same situation in this area of Liplje, which

Page 9812

 1     is also very remote.  You have really to find your way in this area.  So

 2     these -- these sites were probed as well and concluded as being filled

 3     with multiple remains, so exhumations could be conducted at a later

 4     stage.  And these bodies were connected through various elements with the

 5     bodies robbed at the grave of the dam.

 6        Q.   Let's go to the -- 255, the aerial image of those -- those four

 7     sites.

 8             Are those the four sites from your map graphic?

 9        A.   Yes, these are the sites.

10        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 256, if we could.

11             We see the same graphic in a place near Cancari.  Please explain.

12        A.   So this is a long valley, approximately -- I mean, some

13     8 kilometres long, where, in fact, there are 12 graves in this area.  On

14     the map, only nine are marked on this part, since these nine are the nine

15     that expertise can connect with the Branjevo farm.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I believe my time is up.  So I

17     would -- would request be given another 15 minutes so that we can finish.

18     We're very close, as you can see, and I don't intend to ask him about the

19     mosque photos because we have Mr. Riedlmayer, a mosque expert.  There's

20     also an example of a secondary grave exhumation which highlights much of

21     what Mr. Ruez has said which I would also like to show you, and I

22     apologise for my poor estimates.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Some matters seem to speak for themselves.  If

24     we have seen a sequence of maps and then aerial views, then, of course,

25     you would expect that that would depict the same ...

Page 9813

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may use the time you asked for.  And ...

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Let's go to 257.

 5             What's this?

 6        A.   This is a view of the Cerska valley to give an idea of how the

 7     terrain looks like and inhabited area.  This is facing direction east

 8     towards Serbia.

 9        Q.   I think you said Cerska valley?

10        A.   I said Cerska?  I'm sorry, Cancari valley.

11        Q.   So this is the location of the yellow -- yellow markings from the

12     map graphic?

13        A.   Yes, more or less.  Because, as I said, it's quite a long valley.

14        Q.   Okay.  And if we go to 258, we can see what is now -- a similar

15     map graphic as we have seen before, indicating those same locations, I

16     take it?

17        A.   Yes.  More or less the same locations.  We are going from the

18     right to the left, so from the east to the west.  They are -- the first

19     three sites, I didn't talk about them yet.  These first three are the

20     ones resulting from the disturbance of Kozluk.  As an example of obvious

21     connection, the best is from here, because it's when we started the

22     exhumation of one of these sites that were found among the bodies, stacks

23     of labels and green glass, the labels "Vitinka factory," and this is what

24     then led us to go and visit the site of Kozluk which we had no time to

25     visit before that.  So it was only in 1997.  So the three first ones

Page 9814

 1     later on could be connected through the expertise with the Kozluk sites.

 2     All the other ones are coming from Branjevo farm.  So there are 12 sites

 3     along this road.

 4        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 259.

 5        A.   This is the site Cancari 12 which is the -- the one that at the

 6     extreme west.  It's the first one we probed.  We probed and exhumed.  You

 7     can see the shape of the white disturbance inside this round spot.

 8        Q.   And can you tell us, is this some kind of blow-up of one of those

 9     US imagery products?

10        A.   Yes, yes, it is a blow-up.

11        Q.   Okay.  That who did, do you know?  Is that something you did

12     or -- I see the yellow on it, C-12.

13        A.   I probably did it, yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Let's go to the next page.  260.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to understand.

16             This picture is 90 degrees -- it's the left picture, the full

17     left CR-12 --

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- but then it's just turned for 90 degrees.  Is

20     that --

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  It is.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you for that.

24        Q.   All right.  So let's now go to 260.

25        A.   So here we have set the base camp for the exhumation and it's

Page 9815

 1     the -- it's the shape of the previous disturbance.  Now we are on it.

 2     You can see our equipment, but mainly here in the middle is the secondary

 3     mass grave, Cancari 12.  It is clearly visible in the middle of the

 4     picture with a little orange backhoe at its right.  And the white things

 5     on the -- next to the grave are body-bags.  The exhumation is ongoing at

 6     this moment.

 7        Q.   Let's go to 261.

 8        A.   And this picture shows how -- how looks such a secondary grave

 9     once the surface has been cleaned.  It's not necessary, the way of doing

10     for the experts, but on this one, I wanted to make a movie for, in

11     bracket, education for the next teams and it was -- ended up being very

12     useful for court purposes also.  So we took the first layer off and this

13     is how looks a full-size secondary mass grave.  It's a mixture of bodies

14     who have been moved by heavy equipment already three times.

15        Q.   Now, you said -- did you make a short film of this -- a good part

16     of this exhumation by the archaeological team of the OTP?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, we have cut this down.  I --

19     from, I think, its original 20-some-odd minutes to seven or eight

20     minutes.  I would request the Court's permission to play it and Mr. Ruez

21     could provide a narrative about it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we try, then, to finish this all at the

23     time of the next break, which would be in ten minutes from now,

24     approximately, and then after that we will start the cross-examination.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, yes.

Page 9816

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It is 65 ter 22442B.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's apparently in two parts, so let's start with

 5     A, if we could.  22442A.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             THE WITNESS:  This is the beginning of the operation.  The first

 8     step was to bring in a mine-clearing team, and once this was checked for

 9     mines, exhumation could start.

10             So the first thing is to take away the first layer of soil.  And

11     then depending on the colour of the soil determine the limits of the

12     grave.  The soil becoming greenish because of the decomposition of the

13     bodies.

14             So here Professor Wright is determining the size of it.

15             Then they start digging at the edges, before the little backhoe

16     begins his own dig.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   Can you ID -- we don't need to stop it, but Richard Wright?

19        A.   Yes, yes, Richard Wright is the one who is conducting this

20     exhumation.

21        Q.   And what is he wearing?  I think it is pretty distinctive.

22        A.   A hat.

23             So when they dig a trench around the grave in order to be able

24     to -- to move into it ... in the -- in the same process also metal

25     detectors are used in order to find shell casings.  Might see that a bit

Page 9817

 1     later.

 2             So it starts with -- with equipment, but then soon as they arrive

 3     at the layers of bodies, the work is getting fine-tuned.

 4        Q.   And who are the team members?  Are they labourers?  Are they --

 5     what are they?

 6        A.   No, they are not labourers.  They are -- I mean, Richard Wright

 7     will provide much more explanation than me.  No, no, they are

 8     archeologists.  Here they work on a grave, but, in other circumstances,

 9     they work on very, very old bones.

10             Some elements are protected during the dig.  This is a hand.

11     Every item is labelled, photographed.

12        Q.   Now we go to the same number but B.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14        A.   So this is a -- show how they document the elements inside, which

15     explains also why it is a slow process.

16             Can you hear the sound of a metal detector here now, finding

17     shell casings.  The shell casings will later be compared with those found

18     from the primary graves.  It is one of the elements that enable to do

19     connections, among other things.

20             This is a foot.  The reason why we focus on it is that we found

21     this foot when we did the first probe of the grave and here it is again.

22     When we probe, we just re-close the hole.  We never take anything out of

23     it.

24             So the work for them is very hard because it's a junk [sic] of

25     half-decomposed bodies so very hard to extract.  Sometimes they spend a

Page 9818

 1     lot of time removing a body part from another one.  It's -- the film in

 2     its length shows it but it is quite exhausting activity.

 3             This is the full -- full size of the grave seen from the top.

 4     Quality of the image is now a bit -- a bit weird.  But you can see all

 5     the elements, skulls, clothing.

 6             Blindfolds and ligatures were also part of the key elements to

 7     connect sites with -- each with another.

 8             So here is an example of the difficulty that they have to

 9     separate the parts.  Knowing that in some instances the bodies are not

10     complete because they have been moved with heavy equipment three times:

11     For the burial, for the unburial, for the reburial.  And all of them, as

12     you know are DNA tested.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   Just to finish up the book you've taken some photographs of -- of

18     the mosques in various stages of destruction that you have added to the

19     end of the book as well.

20        A.   Yes, I did.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, that finishes my direct.  I

22     do have to offer a few things into evidence, the last movie we've seen,

23     the book.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the last movie consisting of two parts.  But

25     perhaps we start with the book.

Page 9819

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  The -- the book is 65 ter 28756.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

 3             No objections.

 4             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28756 receives number P1132,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P1132 is admitted.

 8             The last picture.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And the -- the movie, 22442A and 22442B.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Receive what numbers, Madam Registrar?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Numbers P1133 for A, and P1134 for B.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P1133 and P1134 are admitted into evidence.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And thank you very much, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we -- could the witness be escorted out

15     of the courtroom.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness wait for one more second.

18     Judge Moloto has a question.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At page 229 of the book, we have three pictures

20     there.  One is called Cerik road segment and another one is Hodzici.

21     Could you give us the name of the first one?  It's not -- it's cut off

22     when it got photocopied.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That's 229 in the hard copy, I take it, which would

24     be in --

25             THE WITNESS:  229, yeah, I have it.

Page 9820

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that would be, in e-court -- yes, please.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  It's 253.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  253.  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 4             No, 253 seems to be a wall with blood on it.  In e-court

 5     that's --

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It should be 253 by my records.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  253.  Let's have a look.

 8             Yeah, it's on the screen now.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes ... the name of the first one you mean?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, please, sir.

11             THE WITNESS:  The one that is cut at the top, the Hodzici road

12     segment.  Then the one in the middle, Hodzici road segment.  They named

13     the third one Cerik road segment but --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The first one.  Not the -- those two we can read.

15     I'm asking you about the first one.

16             THE WITNESS:  Hodzici.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it the same as the second?

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  But the third is the same also.  It's a

21     continuation.  We just call this entire stretch Hodzici, and for the

22     other parts coming from another location, Liplje.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             THE WITNESS:  We never use Cerik.  It's Hodzici for the entire

25     area.

Page 9821

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, when you said 253, you were right.  I

 2     looked at 235, so it was my mistake.  Apologies for that.

 3             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.  We'd like to

 4     see you back in 20 minutes.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, after the break you will start your

 7     cross-examination, although it will be only very limited today, I take

 8     it.

 9             Could I remind you that, as the Chamber, I think, has abundantly

10     shown also during the examination-in-chief, that this witness is not a

11     witness of fact on what happened.  But whenever he says, This happened

12     there and that happened there, it became clear to us now that what he

13     intended to say is that:  This is what I heard from witnesses which

14     triggered me to go there or to take a photograph, et cetera.

15             So, therefore, I think the cross-examination should -- when

16     cross-examining the witness, you keep this clearly in mind that that is

17     the gist of the evidence of this witness.

18             We'll take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 1.21 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

22             Usually I use the time for reading some decisions, but I have

23     none at this moment.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ruez, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic.

Page 9822

 1     Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ruez.

 5        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.

 6        Q.   I know that you have been expecting for your testimony to be

 7     finished this week, but, unfortunately, we shall have to bother you to

 8     come again.

 9        A.   It's no problem.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have P1132 in e-court.

11     That's the book compiled by Mr. Ruez.  And let's go immediately to

12     page 44.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  E-court, Mr. Lukic?

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, e-court.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   As you know, this is an image received from the

18     US Administration.  It is said that these are people in a football field.

19     And the other day, we had a witness, RM346, testifying here the other day

20     and he confirmed that this was approximately the size of the group in

21     which he himself was.

22             Now what I'm interested in is, whether you have checked, by any

23     method whatsoever, how many people were put together in these two

24     rectangulars, one is a longer rectangular and the other is a wider one

25     and the people who were put there were prisoners?

Page 9823

 1        A.   We -- I never made an attempt to make a count of these people.

 2     There are not enough references to do it.  I don't -- I could not say,

 3     you know, what would be the size of a pixel that would represent one man,

 4     what would be the total number of these pixels.  Is it the same if a man

 5     is standing?  Is it the same if he is sitting?  I don't know.  So

 6     making -- for me, an attempt to count them would be not necessarily

 7     irrelevant but too unprecise to be discussed.  I would not try to do it.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  The witness said that the people in the bigger

 9     rectangular were the ones who were sitting on the ground, whereas the

10     people who were in this smaller one were standing up.  But, at any rate,

11     all I wanted was to confirm whether you dealt with the numbers of the

12     persons there or not.

13        A.   No.  And an additional reason is also that I personally have no

14     certainty through a witness statement that this was only a one-event

15     situation.  It might very well be, since witnesses who were driving along

16     this road at various times talk about prisoners on this field.  I don't

17     know if this field was emptied one hour later and re-filled after with

18     new prisoners.  I have no idea.  So we can just consider this a situation

19     at a very -- I mean, not very precise because it is approximate 1400, I

20     mean, 2.00 p.m.  I don't know what would be the situation two hours

21     later, what it was two hours before.  I couldn't say.

22        Q.   Thank you.  We see in this picture that there is no fence at all

23     around this football field; is that correct?  And did you receive this

24     information from the witness to the effect that no fence existed there?

25        A.   We could easily check with ground picture I took in April 1996.

Page 9824

 1     But I believe you are right, there is no fence in this location.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that the people were taken prisoner,

 3     whether in combat or have surrendered, and were gathered in the locations

 4     that were closest to the path along which the column was travelling?

 5        A.   Yes, it is what occurred, in fact.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have photo 58 in

 7     e-court.

 8        Q.   Again, we can see another aerial photo, and it has also been

 9     claimed that there's a group of people depicted in this photo.  And I

10     have the same question about this photo as I did for the previous one.

11             Did you establish how many people were in this photograph?

12        A.   The answer will be slightly different since we have one more

13     specificity on this picture which is the angle under which it was taken.

14     And I explained during the direct, showing the photographs connected with

15     this site, the people here are on a slope.  At the moment, the slope is

16     quite steep.  So due to this angle, in fact, the -- the group is larger

17     than visible on this picture.

18             If we had the picture from the opposite side, the length would be

19     bigger.  Here, you have a part where, because of the line of sight, it

20     seems to be less people than it actually is.  But, again, trying to count

21     is a, to me, with this quality of picture anyhow, mission impossible.

22        Q.   I might not have been quite clear in my questions relating to

23     both pictures.

24             What I had in mind was that that could have been determined

25     according to the size of the space that you yourself saw on the ground,

Page 9825

 1     as well as on the basis of the fact that the photos ... or rather, in the

 2     footage provided by Zoran Petrovic one can see people sitting on the

 3     ground.

 4             But, in any case, you never tried to establish the exact number

 5     of people who were at this location; is that correct?

 6        A.   No, it's not correct.  It's not that I never tried to

 7     established.  It is not possible to establish with the pictures that we

 8     have.  In my view, it is not possible, but if someone is willing to do

 9     it, I'm fine with it.

10        Q.   Thank you.  This is another unfenced area; correct?

11        A.   This is correct.

12        Q.   We are talking about prisoners.  From the witness testimonies

13     that we had an opportunity to review and from the documents from the

14     Muslim side, I'm going to tell you now how many prisoners there were in

15     total, and that is the figure that we arrived at.  And if you disagree,

16     please tell me so, and tell me or can you quote a source that speaks

17     differently.

18             In Potocari, 800 men were singled out, or separated.  In the

19     Sandici meadow, not more than 1500 people.  Konjevic Polje, 100 people.

20     Nova Kasaba, 1500 people.  And individual captures totalling 100 people.

21     And another 50 in Luke.  Which makes a total of 4.050 people.

22             Do you have any knowledge that, at that time, more people were

23     taken prisoner and in which locations were these people held?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you are asking a question of this

25     witness -- but perhaps he -- he certainly will answer that question.

Page 9826

 1     This witness says, This is what I saw, this is what people told me, true

 2     or not, but that made me go to this place.  I saw a meadow.  I think if

 3     you would insist that he would say that what we see on our screen now is

 4     not 20.000 people because 20.000 people would not fit in whatever way on

 5     such a meadow.

 6             But we are starting from facts.  You are saying, Well, on the

 7     basis of this and this and this, and then you mention a lot of places and

 8     say, We think that so many were there, how could we fit the two together?

 9     If you have a solution for that, I'm quite happy.  Ask your question.

10     But this witness says, first of all, that he cannot, on the basis of his

11     material he cannot conclude anything.  So, therefore, how possibly could

12     he comment on the unsourced figures you are giving?

13             MR. LUKIC:  I was talking about the witness statements in which

14     this witness took part as well.  If he cannot answer my question, I will

15     move on.  But if he can give us some estimate, I would happily hear from

16     him.  But if Your Honours think that I shouldn't ask this question, I

17     will move on, too.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if the witness -- let me say the following:

19     If the witness can answer the question, I'd like to hear his explanation

20     why he think he can but -- therefore I leave it to the witness.

21             Mr. Ruez, can you answer the question?

22             THE WITNESS:  Answer is no, but I must admit that I'm already

23     extremely satisfied that coming from the mouth of the Defence there is an

24     admittance of having already captured 4.000 prisoners --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, but --

Page 9827

 1             THE WITNESS:  -- I think this is the first time we hear this.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that is a matter which is not for a witness.

 3     Perhaps you are thinking about your past times when you worked for the

 4     Prosecution, but whether you're happy or not with any admission by the

 5     Defence is not a matter I expect -- although it is perhaps triggered by

 6     the question, but it is not a question which is for a witness to further

 7     assess.

 8             Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Well, it wasn't our assessment.  It is the

10     testimonies of other witnesses.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, now you make it quite complex.  But let

12     me see how you introduced this question, Mr. Lukic.  I'll have a look at

13     the transcript exactly.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I was talking about the witness statements.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  "I'm going to tell you now how many prisoners there

16     were in total."  Not how many they said there were in total but -- "and

17     that's the figure that we arrived at."

18             So let's move on and let's just assume that you intended to say

19     that these are the numbers you reached --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Given by the witnesses --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you reached when --

22             MR. LUKIC:  Analysing witness statements.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's move on.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

25             [Interpretation] Can we now please have page 63 in e-court.  It's

Page 9828

 1     the valley of Cerska.

 2        Q.   Mr. Ruez, is it true that there is a series of witnesses who are

 3     giving all various accounts of this one and the same incident?  Would you

 4     agree with me?

 5        A.   There is one witness who is, let's say, the main witness who saw

 6     the three buses followed by the APC and then by the excavator entering

 7     the valley and who, sometime later, heard intense shooting coming from

 8     that direction.  Now, he's the witness.  The other ones are not direct

 9     witnesses of this event.  They could assist us by trying to pinpoint the

10     location in this valley, but they didn't see or hear anything from this

11     event.  There is only one person who actually saw this convoy entering

12     the valley.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D854, briefly.

15        Q.   What we will see is a transcript from the trial of Popovic et al,

16     and it's your testimony of 8 September 2006.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 65 in e-court.  It's

18     1392, the page of the transcript.

19        Q.   In lines 6 and 7, answering about this specific location, you

20     said, [In English] I quote:

21             "There is, in fact, a series of witnesses who all have a

22     different approach of the situation."

23             [Interpretation] Your evidence in this case prompted me to put

24     that previous question to you.  In other words, is there indeed a series

25     of witnesses who have different accounts of the situation or not?

Page 9829

 1        A.   I repeat, one is, let's call him, the key witness who saw the

 2     buses, the APC and the excavator entering the valley, but when I say "a

 3     series of witnesses," it's a series of witnesses that enabled us to

 4     locate the position of the execution and the burial.  One who then

 5     entered the valley and walked in a pool of blood, and mainly two others

 6     who stood hidden at the end of a valley, well, one probably one week

 7     later, made a u-turn and smelled the stench of the bodies.  And when we

 8     showed them a video of this valley, driving from -- all along each side

 9     could at one point, the reference point, I think, was a fountain,

10     indicate us the area.  And then by going into we could locate the thing

11     by searching all the side of the thing.

12             To tell you detail, what was suspect on this site was that there

13     were branches put on it but they had nothing do there.  And the fact is

14     that later on, mainly with the secondary sites, branches being put on top

15     of the soil was one indication that we were not far away from the

16     targets.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have Mr. Ruez's book back,

18     P1132.  We need page 72 in e-court.

19        Q.   You said about this photograph that it was identified by

20     Jose Baraybar, that is to say, that he identified human remains based on

21     photographs; is that right?

22        A.   No, that is not right.  This exhumation and in this probe -- this

23     is a probe, it's not an exhumation.  It's a probe to check if indeed we

24     are on a grave, and if it is a grave, that there are multiple remains.

25     After this dig, we refilled the holes, and later on the full exhumation

Page 9830

 1     was done, and it was done by -- I think it was Mr. -- it was Bill Haglund

 2     who -- I don't remember who did it.  I mean, it was done by either

 3     Mr. Bill Haglund or by Professor Richard Wright, not by Jose Pablo

 4     Baraybar.  I mentioned Jose Pablo Baraybar about pieces of bones found at

 5     the plateau of the dam.  I don't think I mentioned Baraybar for this.  He

 6     was not with us on this probe.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D855, please.  Can we

 8     call it up in e-court.

 9        Q.   It's your testimony of 11 September 2006 in the Popovic case.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 4, which corresponds to

11     the transcript page 1421.

12        Q.   Lines 1 through 4:

13             [In English] "We were not with the pathologist that day but it

14     was our assessment, and the picture was later shown to Jose Pablo

15     Baraybar, an anthropologist who was with the team and who identified the

16     human remains according to the pictures."

17             [Interpretation] Does this refresh your memory?

18        A.   Yes, it does.  Jose Pablo was not -- I mean, he was an

19     anthropologist who was with the team but not that day.  The pictures were

20     showed to him later.  Because even though you have a human skull with

21     clothing in it, and that anyone would be able to say, that, yes, it is a

22     human being in this clothing, we do not have -- I mean, I do not have the

23     expertise to say that the -- it's a human being.

24             So we have to show the -- the photograph to a specialist who can

25     say, yes, it's a human skull.  And a skeleton or whatsoever.  But, again,

Page 9831

 1     this site is fully exhumed.  There is a full report stuffed with details

 2     about the bodies, the possible cause of death, the way they were found

 3     bounded, some even had their feet bounded, and so on, so ...

 4             And, yes, it is confirmed that the remains that were found during

 5     this probe were human.

 6        Q.   My question had to do with the methodology applied by

 7     Jose Pablo Baraybar.  That's all.  Because he will be coming here and I

 8     just wanted to establish whether it was on the basis of these photographs

 9     that he came to the conclusion that these were human remains.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask that we look at

11     page 76 in e-court.  Though not in this document.  Rather, in P1132.

12        Q.   This is the introduction to Nova Kasaba.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I need the next page.  Page 77.

14             A moment, please.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   These are the locations that are not related to the sports field

18     in Nova Kasaba; is that right?

19        A.   No, they are not.

20        Q.   At that same time, or perhaps not at that same time, people were

21     gathered at the field in Nova Kasaba; is that right?

22        A.   That same day, yes.

23        Q.   However, at both these locations, on this image, these people

24     cannot be seen.

25        A.   No.  They cannot be seen because, at this moment, there is no

Page 9832

 1     disturbance, but this is a location where an execution will take place.

 2     Three groups of 30 people have been mowed down by automatic rifles in the

 3     square box that you can see on this picture and the two locations are

 4     connected with this massacre.  There is a witness of this who saw the

 5     scene with his own eyes.  And the pathologist who will describe the

 6     content of these graves will even be able to implement the fact that some

 7     of these people were shot inside the grave.  But I didn't enter this

 8     detail during the direct.  We skipped this episode.  Three times

 9     30 people was probably not big enough.  And this was 13 July.  More or

10     less at the same time of the soccer field.  All these things happened

11     more or less at the same moments.

12        Q.   That's precisely what I'm interested in.  How did you establish

13     that it was happening at the same time?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're exactly doing what the Chamber

15     tried to avoid you to do.  We always said what triggered this witness,

16     what did he hear, what did he find which triggered him to go there or ask

17     for specific aerial views, and now you are asking him to evaluate the

18     testimony of those witnesses.  That's where I interrupted several times

19     in the examination-in-chief, and I --

20             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise.  My mistake.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  And I think we cannot proceed anymore if you want to

23     escort the witness before the break.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then, I do understand that you ...

25             Mr. Ruez, I make a similar comment to you.  In your last answer,

Page 9833

 1     you started evaluating why and even commenting on matters --

 2             THE WITNESS:  No, I'm not commenting on matters.  I just say that

 3     we have a crime scene here involving 90 people.  We have all the forensic

 4     evidence.  If the Defence wants to ask questions about details I was not

 5     providing during cross, I am very happy to develop much more about these

 6     crime scenes --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I heard you also say 30 is not enough.  That is

 8     comment.

 9             THE WITNESS:  We make a selection for this trial --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's --

11             THE WITNESS:  -- that we have to summarise things.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a comment.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I agree.  That's a comment.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's try to -- I think you have heard me say

15     several times, both during the examination-in-chief and now once or twice

16     in cross-examination, what the Chamber considers is the gist of your

17     evidence and let's try to stick to that.

18             We do not know when you'll be re-called for further

19     cross-examination, Mr. Ruez.  But, at the same time, even if -- is this

20     an unknown period of time, I have to instruct you that during that period

21     of time, you are not allowed to speak or communicate in any other way

22     with whomever, including former colleagues which might be very attractive

23     to do so, but you are not allowed to discuss or communicate about your

24     testimony, whether already given or still to be given.

25             If there's any exception to be made, then it should be clearly

Page 9834

 1     explained to the Chamber why it is and what it is, because I can imagine

 2     that your presence in The Hague may be very practical for other purposes.

 3     The Chamber needs to be informed about it and the Chamber has to give its

 4     consent, and the Chamber will also invite the Defence, then, to comment

 5     on that.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Could we have permission for

 7     him to -- for our witness person Maria Karall to speak with him about

 8     logistics as opposed to going through the Victims and Witness, because it

 9     is easier for her to just speak to him directly about days and

10     availability and that sort of thing.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, purely about logistics, when, how,

12     et cetera.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Of course, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is then allowed.

15             So we'll see you back, don't know where -- we do know where but

16     not when.

17             THE WITNESS:  Regarding the when because of the strict rules that

18     I know and that I am bounded with and I apply them, the shortest would be

19     the better, indeed, because staying under oath for too long period of

20     time is a bit problematic indeed.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You are to some extent in the hands of the

22     Prosecution.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, sir.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 9835

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We will adjourn for the day and will resume on

 2     Tuesday, the 16th of April, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the

 3     morning.

 4             We stand adjourned.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of April,

 7                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.