Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9916

 1                           Wednesday, 17 April 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused not present]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there was a preliminary to be

12     raised by the Prosecution.  At the same time, I'm looking at you,

13     Mr. Lukic.  I think it is about scheduling.  And now, Mr. Mladic

14     yesterday in closed session was removed from the courtroom mainly serving

15     the purpose of not further intervening with witnesses.

16             Now, we expect Mr. Mladic to be back later this morning.  Would

17     you say we can deal with this scheduling issue in his absence or?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we can, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then, Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour,

21     everyone.

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

Page 9917

 1                           [Private session]

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             We will continue to hear the case against Mr. Mladic in the

20     absence of Judge Fluegge.  We are still sitting under Rule 15 bis.

21             In order to hear the remainder of the testimony of the witness,

22     we return -- we turn into closed session.

23                           [Closed session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 9918











11 Pages 9918-9969 redacted. Closed session.















Page 9970

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, the matter you intended to raise

16     was?

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, yes, Mr. President.  And I apologise, I

18     found another oversight with respect to the record from yesterday.  The

19     video that was used is -- you were correct, 65 ter 28780.  I referred

20     to -- I neglected to refer to what part of the video, and it -- for the

21     record is V000-9265 and it's the same part of -- of that video that the

22     Court has seen today.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you -- we saw several video passages.

24     Which one --

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's all from the same part.

Page 9971

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand.  But the portion played, where did

 2     you make the mistake so that we know on the record where to make?

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I did not announce --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, you did not announce.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  At the beginning, yes, exactly, which video,

 6     which ERN, and which part.  So I just wanted to make that clear.  I think

 7     Mr. Lukic understands.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the introduction of the video was not

 9     precise enough and you have rectified that.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That's then on the record.

12             I'm looking at the clock.  Is the Prosecution ready to call its

13     next witness?  And would that be for cross-examination or further

14     cross-examination?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I believe Mr. Ivetic is

16     ready to cross-examine Erin Gallagher on the maps.

17             MR. IVETIC:  That is correct, Your Honours.  I am prepared to do

18     the examination of Ms. Gallagher.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  How much time would you need, Mr. Ivetic?

20             MR. IVETIC:  50 minutes to an hour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  50 minutes to an hour.  Then, of course, I'm also

22     looking at the clock in terms of:  If you say you can do it in one hour,

23     then I would, at this moment, take a break of half an hour.  Or we could

24     start now already - that's another possibility - and then to continue and

25     then see what time is still needed after the next break.

Page 9972

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I do mention -- I do mention, I believe

 3     that Mr. Mladic is at the premises and is supposed to be brought back

 4     into the courtroom for this witness, so I don't know that would --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, of course, he would be brought back.  The

 6     only question for me is we would take a break now, then we would re-start

 7     at five minutes to 1.00, and then we would have time, 1 hour and 20

 8     minutes, but usually we are sitting only for one hour.  Now I can imagine

 9     that if you have only one session that it's not that dramatic if

10     Mr. Mladic would spend 20 minutes more in court.

11             I see Mr. Lukic agreeing with that.  Rather, perhaps then to have

12     Mr. Mladic to enter the courtroom at this moment and then take another

13     break later.

14             Mr. Ivetic, I then assume that we could conclude -- if we would

15     start at five minutes to 1.00, that you would easily conclude by 2.00 and

16     see whether there's any time remaining time for re-examination.

17             MR. IVETIC:  I think so, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we will proceed like that and which does

19     also not in any way interfere with tomorrow's witness.

20             We'll take a break and we will resume at five minutes to 1.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

22                           [The accused entered court]

23                           --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 9973

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Ms. Gallagher.  I think you left us

 2     on the 1st of March, but, still, we needed you to return to be

 3     cross-examined.

 4             Before I invite Mr. Ivetic to cross-examine you, I'd like to

 5     remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

 6     at the very beginning of your testimony.  There's no need to have it

 7     repeated.  More important is that you're aware that it still binds you.

 8             Mr. Ivetic, if you are ready, you may start your

 9     cross-examination.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           WITNESS:  ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

13        Q.   Good day, Ms. Gallagher.

14        A.   Good day.

15        Q.   I will finish your examination today, but I must caution that in

16     our quest to finish as soon as possible, we both should try to observe a

17     pause between answer and question and vice versa.  Is that understood?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Then let us begin.

20             Ms. Gallagher, could you please tell us, during your employment

21     with the Office of the Prosecutor, have you known of any protocols or

22     procedures to have been published or have been in existence as to the

23     generation of maps or marking of maps by the Office of the Prosecutor?

24        A.   Protocols regarding maps, none that I'm aware of.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in relation to P1087, marked for identification,

Page 9974

 1     which is the Srebrenica map binder, at transcript page 9420 last month

 2     during your direct examination, you testified that you assisted in

 3     putting together the map book.  Could you please enlighten us with some

 4     more details as to what precisely your contribution or assistance to the

 5     process was.

 6        A.   It's a map book that originated in earlier trials such as Popovic

 7     and Tolimir, so there's been an evolution of the map book until the

 8     Mladic trial.  My role has been to meet with Peter McCloskey and review

 9     the prior map books, decide which should be included, which maps should

10     be taken out, because they're not relevant to the Mladic trial, and then

11     work with our mapping expert to basically make sure it's assembled

12     correctly and sent out for printing.

13        Q.   And would you identify yourself as the person that personally had

14     the most significant part in generating the maps and marking the maps

15     that are contained therein?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   And whom would you identify as the person or persons who have the

18     most significant personal role in generating the maps and marking the

19     maps that are included in the Srebrenica court map binder?

20        A.   It will vary with the maps.  I would say the -- some of the maps

21     will have come from information from the military analyst, Rick Butler.

22     Other maps would have been more specifically generated from

23     Jean-Rene Ruez, and he's still working with our mapping unit.

24        Q.   Thank you.  If we could now focus on the markings that were added

25     to the maps by the Office of the Prosecutor, could you tell me who,

Page 9975

 1     within the Office of the Prosecutor, made the decision as to how the maps

 2     would be marked and in what way they would be marked?

 3        A.   My belief is that the -- some of the -- the earlier

 4     computer-generated maps, those came mainly from Jean-Rene, and then some

 5     of the maps regarding the -- the locations and the borders of, let's say,

 6     the Drina Corps and the brigades came from Rick Butler.  That's to the

 7     best of my knowledge.

 8        Q.   Did any member of the trial team such as Mr. McCloskey or

 9     Mr. Groome or one of the other attorneys appearing at trial for the

10     Prosecution have a role in reaching a decision as to which maps would be

11     marked and how they would be marked?

12        A.   These maps were marked a while ago, so I think that they still

13     originated most likely with Jean-Rene and Rick Butler.  I'm not sure if

14     perhaps they worked in coordination with Peter McCloskey at the time.  I

15     don't know if he played a role or not.

16        Q.   Fair enough.  Thank you.  Did you keep a log of documents and/or

17     materials that the team reviewed or relied upon in order to prepare each

18     of the maps in the Srebrenica map binder and the markings on them?

19        A.   Meaning documents, materials that would have supported the

20     markings on the map?

21        Q.   That is correct.

22        A.   Certainly not by the time that I came onto this -- this project.

23     I'm not aware of any log of documents that were kept in any binder or any

24     file that were used for the maps.  That may have existed but not

25     certainly when I started working on this.

Page 9976

 1        Q.   In assisting to prepare the Srebrenica map binder book for this

 2     trial, did you or anyone notice Office of the Prosecutor have the

 3     assistance of any experts outside the employment of the Prosecution?

 4        A.   There was expert assistance in terms of the actual data of the

 5     maps, the topographical and geological data, geographical data, not in

 6     terms of the actual markings that were added by the Office of the

 7     Prosecution.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And perhaps I should have asked this earlier but have

 9     you, as part of any of your formal education and schooling studied the

10     Balkans and especially Yugoslavia?

11        A.   Not specifically.  I have -- my undergraduate degree is in

12     Russian studies, but that did not focus very much on the former

13     Yugoslavia.

14        Q.   And did any of your formal education or schooling have any course

15     of study in map drafting or map-making?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Last month at transcript page 9452, you mentioned a

18     Richard Butler as being the source of the markings on a map from a

19     variety of source, and at transcript page 9462 you again said the same

20     Richard Butler was the source of information on the Zepa map and that he

21     could explain it.

22             And the question I have for you first is can you explain for us

23     what kinds of variety of sources you are talking about that Mr. Butler

24     would have used, if you are aware?

25        A.   He -- he would have used -- I don't want to quote which specific

Page 9977

 1     ones for sure.  He indeed used -- but any maps that would have -- would

 2     have been acquired by the -- the VRS at that time, any documents that we

 3     would have gotten such as combat reports, interim reports, intercepts,

 4     all the information that was coming in that -- that time that helped

 5     formulate where the different military units were located.

 6        Q.   And I would now to take a look at P1087, marked for

 7     identification, the actual Srebrenica map binder book, and if we can look

 8     at page 5 in the hard copy, marked A 02, and in e-court it should also be

 9     page 5.  And while we wait for everyone to get to that.

10             And just to clarify, first of all, looking at this map, is this

11     one which your team within the Office of the Prosecutor generated or was

12     it prepared by some other department?

13        A.   No, this one comes from the Office of the Prosecutor using the

14     underlying data that was brought from Zagreb.  And when I say underlying

15     data, I mean the locations, municipalities, the actual map data.

16        Q.   We'll explore that.  First of all, I'd like to direct your

17     attention to the bottom of this page where the base map that is

18     identified is ERN number 0505-4367.  Am I correct that this base map is

19     actually a reference to another Prosecution-generated map from the

20     Popovic court binder in the Popovic case rather than the underlying data

21     that was brought from Zagreb, as you said?

22        A.   Right.  It's one and the same.  I believe this map was originated

23     for the Popovic trial.

24        Q.   And now you've mentioned data that was brought from Zagreb.  Am I

25     correct that the original source, that is the empty map before the

Page 9978

 1     Prosecution added material to it, was actually a 1991 Vector map from a

 2     company, a private company operating in Zagreb Croatia?

 3        A.   That's correct.  Though I think the -- the -- in terms of when

 4     the OTP actually bought it from or acquired it from the company, it was

 5     not 1991.  Obviously.  I think it was per -- 2002.

 6        Q.   Fair enough.  And would it be a fair assessment that the original

 7     1991 Vector map would not have contained any of the markings except for

 8     the names of the municipalities and the faint borders of the

 9     municipalities?

10        A.   That's correct.  You would not have seen -- well, for example, as

11     it says, the confrontation line or the Dayton line.  Those were added in

12     by the Office of the Prosecutor.

13        Q.   Can you tell me, first of all, in relation to this particular map

14     that we have before us, what documents or other materials you or other

15     Prosecution team members reviewed in order to prepare markings exhibited

16     on the map?

17        A.   As you'll see in the legend, the confrontation line is one that

18     was added in, and I know that to come from a -- a British forces map,

19     from a situation map, from April of 1995.

20             Then the Dayton line was added in after December of 1995.

21     Specifically what source they used for -- I think rather that's a public

22     source, but I don't know it specifically.  But those are the two -- the

23     two bits that were added later.

24        Q.   Now you've already said that you are unaware of a log of

25     documents being kept.  Is there any other information, lists, et cetera,

Page 9979

 1     in the possession of the Prosecution identifying what the actual sources

 2     for the markings -- what sources were consulted before making the

 3     markings on this map?

 4        A.   I don't know of any others.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I would like to then move to the next map in both versions

 6     of the binder.  So in the hard copy it will be 803 and it will be page 6

 7     in e-court.

 8             And again, the base map that is listed at the bottom of this

 9     page, would you agree again that this was an OTP-generated map from the

10     Popovic court binder?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   And you've already testified that there was not -- that you do

13     not know of a log being kept, can you in fact tell us what materials were

14     used or reviewed to generate the markings on this map?

15        A.   Earlier when we were speaking about Rick Butler and his sources,

16     it is from his information of reading VRS maps, combat reports, other

17     documents, and he assisted in formulating this map.

18        Q.   And you say he assisted in formulating this map.  Who had the

19     main role in formulating this map?

20        A.   My assumptions is that it was Rick Butler with the mapping unit.

21        Q.   Okay.  I would next like to turn to the next page in both e-court

22     and the Court binder, which should bring us to the map that is labelled

23     as: "Drina Corps Area of Responsibility" and it has the page bearing of

24     A04.

25             And, Ms. Gallagher, perhaps to short circuit the

Page 9980

 1     cross-examination a bit, looking at the ERN for this map's base map at

 2     the bottom, would you agree with me that all the references to base map

 3     for the OTP-generated maps in part 1 of the binder book are actually just

 4     references to identical OTP-generated maps in the Popovic court binder

 5     rather than any kind of original source map?

 6        A.   I think these -- the ones that begin with 0505, those appear to

 7     be from Popovic trial, so those are referring to the 65 ter numbers and

 8     therefore ERN numbers from the Popovic trial.

 9        Q.   And A07 would have a 05054371 ERN.  Would that also be from the

10     Popovic court binder?

11        A.   Now, this is a map that was created prior to Popovic, but I think

12     that -- and same with A06, these were created before the Popovic trial.

13     They were used in the map book for the Popovic trial, which is I think is

14     why they are being referred to with an identifying 65 ter number.

15        Q.   Okay.  And let's go to A06, which will be in -- on page, I

16     believe, 8 in e-court, and also page 8 in the hard copy of the binder,

17     and it's marked -- well, it's not marked with a title.

18             If we focus on -- I apologise.  The next page in e-court.

19             Thank you.

20             Now if we focus on this map that we have before us, and the

21     markings denoting, quote/unquote -- actually, hold on.

22             I apologise.  If we can go two more pages forward to A08.  That

23     will be, I think, page 9 in the e-court.  Yes.

24             And if we look at -- this -- this map that has the markings

25     denoting mass executions, am I correct that your source for this

Page 9981

 1     information -- or, rather, that the Prosecution added this information

 2     based upon its own sources?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   Can you tell me what precise materials were used or reviewed in

 5     order to identify the locations to be marked in this fashion as,

 6     quote/unquote, mass executions?

 7        A.   My understanding is that these early markings were derived from

 8     Jean-Rene Ruez and that would have come from his own work in the field,

 9     from witness statements, interviews, visiting execution sites and mass

10     grave-sites.

11        Q.   And now if we can go back to A06, which would have been page, I

12     believe, 7, in e-court.

13             And here we have the same notation of mass executions.  Would

14     these come from the same source that you've just described for us?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   In relation to the manner in which Jean-Rene Ruez would have come

17     to this information, can you tell me if anyone kept a record of the

18     documents and materials that he would have reviewed to come to these

19     determinations?

20        A.   Did -- it would probably be a better question for him, but I have

21     not seen any such list or record of -- of the specific sources used to

22     create these maps.

23        Q.   Am I correct, then, that you cannot name for us a single source

24     that was used to mark the maps for the, quote/unquote, mass execution

25     locations?

Page 9982

 1        A.   That's correct.  I don't think there is one single source that he

 2     would have used.  I would only be making an educated guess as to the

 3     different sources he have used, but I don't know specifically.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now in relation to both A06, A07, and A08, we have

 5     read lines or markings with arrows on them.  Can you provide us with the

 6     details, the materials that the team members reviewed in order to

 7     generate these particular markings?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If -- I don't believe -- I think we've got

10     another map on the screen which may --

11             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- be a bit ambiguous for, or ...

13             MR. IVETIC:  We should be going, I believe, two pages further in

14     e-court to get to A06.  Now we have A06 on the screen.

15        Q.   The other two - A07, A08 - appear to be blow-ups of sections of

16     this same map; but am I correct, Ms. Gallagher?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   Now, with respect to these red lines with arrows on them that are

19     on all three of these maps, could you provide us with the details or the

20     materials that Prosecution team members would have reviewed in order to

21     generate these markings, if you can?

22        A.   Now I believe these arrows primarily come from the map that

23     Miodrag Dragutinovic had marked.  So that was a VRS original map that we

24     had seen last time.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now, I'd like to turn to the maps that are labelled as VRS

Page 9983

 1     maps in the Srebrenica map binder book.

 2             In your direct examination you were asked to give us the meaning

 3     of some of the markings on the same.  Further to my objection that I

 4     raised at that day, I now have to ask you some questions about the

 5     testimony you gave.

 6             Now in relation now to the VRS maps that you were asked about in

 7     direct examination and for which you provide an interpretation, did you

 8     keep a log of materials that you reviewed or consulted in reaching the

 9     conclusions and interpretation as to meaning that you gave in direct

10     examination?

11        A.   I certainly know what I consulted when I was preparing for the

12     testimony and reviewing those maps, so I -- I know in my head and I --

13     I -- I did keep some -- some supporting documents and background

14     information about the maps, how we received them.  I read

15     Miodrag Dragutinovic's testimony, the original intake of the maps, that

16     sort of thing.

17        Q.   Now you say you know in your head and you did keep some of the

18     supporting documents, did you ever generate a log or list of supporting

19     documents that you consulted prior to reaching your opinions on

20     interpreting the maps and testifying as to those opinions last month in

21     court?

22        A.   I certainly didn't create a separate log or list.  I did keep the

23     documents that I reviewed prior.  But I don't have a written list that I

24     created separately.

25        Q.   Approximately how many documents are we talking about?

Page 9984

 1        A.   Not a lot.  That's why there's not such a -- a list.  As I

 2     mentioned, I -- I read the -- I read Miodrag Dragutinovic's testimony.  I

 3     had read some testimony of Rick Butler.  I had looked at the search and

 4     seizure documents of how we acquired the maps.  I looked at what we call

 5     the MIFs which are the intake sheets of when we received documents, just

 6     to verify who received them, when, and where.  That was really primarily

 7     it.

 8        Q.   In relation to the explanations as to the meanings of markings

 9     that you testified about in direct examination on these VRS maps, did you

10     consult with any experts, whether OTP or otherwise, before reaching those

11     conclusions and testifying as to what markings meant?

12        A.   No.  I think the -- the comments I made about the markings

13     primarily came from Miodrag Dragutinovic's own testimony, since he

14     created the map -- one of the maps, and the others it may have been other

15     testimony.

16             It might help maybe if you -- if there's any particular ones you

17     can give me an example of.

18        Q.   Well, if we can look at Exhibit P1086 with you.  If we could pull

19     that up in e-court.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any specific reference to the

21     examination-in-chief --

22             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- where the witness dealt with it?

24             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give it to us.

Page 9985

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.  That would be transcript page 9441 through

 2     9442.

 3        Q.   And you were specifically asked about the blue lines with arrows.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  This doesn't appear to be the same map.

 5             If we can go to ...

 6             Perhaps 1085.  This ... my hard copies are not marked, so I

 7     apologise.  It will be either 1085, or 1088, I would suspect, given the

 8     numbering of the prior two maps.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this the one you're looking for, Mr. Ivetic?

10             MR. IVETIC:  No, this is the one -- this is for Zepa, I believe.

11     The one I'm looking for has the blue arrows that the witness testified

12     was the movement of the Bosnian Muslim column and testified that it

13     was --

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it's P1086 and I think it was the one you

15     had up there, too.  You just needed to probably --

16             MR. IVETIC:  [Overlapping speakers].

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- zero in on it.  Yeah.

18             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise then.  P1086.  And if we can magnify it

19     some.

20             And if we can go towards the bottom of the map so the witness can

21     see everything.  Okay.

22        Q.   Now, at transcript pages 9441 through 9442, I understood you to

23     be saying that the blue lines with arrows were the movement of the

24     Bosnian Muslim column.  Is that -- am I accurately remembering?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 9986

 1        Q.   And at that time you said that this understanding of yours was

 2     reached according to following the testimony of a Mr. Dragutinovic from

 3     the Popovic case.  Is that also accurate?

 4        A.   That's correct.  I believe he described what the blue arrows

 5     were.

 6        Q.   Did you interview Mr. Dragutinovic in relation to this map or any

 7     of the other maps that you interpreted for us in court the other week?

 8        A.   No, I did not.

 9        Q.   Who, if anyone, directed you to the testimony of Mr. Dragutinovic

10     from the Popovic case to determine the meaning of markings on this map?

11        A.   Well, I was -- I was here at the time during the Popovic trial,

12     so I was here during his testimony.  And I was -- I think it was a

13     combination I already -- already knew, and I believe that probably -- I

14     believe Peter had mentioned that he had also testified about the map.

15     Excuse me, Peter McCloskey.

16        Q.   Could you clarify for us what you mean by a combination of you

17     already knew.  Already knew what?  The meanings of the map or that he had

18     testified?

19        A.   No, I knew that he testified.  And I don't remember which came --

20     I already knew of him, I knew I was looking for testimony about the map,

21     and I think also Peter had directed me.  But I think I -- I believe I

22     already knew before he had mentioned it.

23        Q.   Did you or any other members of the Office of the Prosecutor

24     undertake any investigations on your own to check or verify the testimony

25     of Mr. Dragutinovic from the Popovic case as to the maps.

Page 9987

 1        A.   Well, in respect to certainly the column, I think what he had

 2     stated, what is shown on the map, as well as my own knowledge of having

 3     read or met with the men that had walked in the column, that it all --

 4     they -- they all corroborate each other.  There was nothing that I've

 5     seen that led me but to believe that this map nor that Mr. Dragutinovic

 6     was incorrect.

 7        Q.   If you could perhaps clarify your answer somewhat.  Prior to

 8     Mr. Dragutinovic's testimony in the Popovic case, did you know the

 9     meaning of markings -- of these markings on this map?

10        A.   I would not have -- I -- I believe that I would have been able to

11     look at this map and know, yes, what those -- those markings meant.

12        Q.   Then can you please identify for us the source of any materials

13     that you reviewed that would have led you to understand what these

14     markings meant prior to the testimony of Mr. Dragutinovic in the Popovic

15     case?

16        A.   It would have been a combination of having read interviews, of

17     having read testimonies, having met or interviewed myself, people having

18     seen other maps generated.  I think it's hard to say what -- any specific

19     source.  I think it would have come from a number of different places, of

20     speaking with my colleagues who had also been investigators on the case

21     or military analysts prior to me.  So probably quite a variety of

22     sources.

23        Q.   Are you able to identify with any specificity any of these

24     variety of sources?

25        A.   It would have been the interview statements and testimony of some

Page 9988

 1     of the survivors who spoke about having left Susnjari.  We have a number

 2     of interviews of what we have -- we have called wood walkers, those that

 3     had also left and walked in the column through the woods.  We have some

 4     of the video of the men gathering in Susnjari, as well as arriving to

 5     Nezuk.  I would have noted Jean-Rene Ruez's maps as well that showed the

 6     direction of the columns.  We have photographs of different areas in the

 7     woods where there's clothing found.  We have another videotape, the

 8     Petrovic video, where you can see some members of the column walking over

 9     the hills over Sandici-Kravica area.  We have combat reports of the MUP

10     that are searching the woods and ambushing the column above in the

11     Kamenica, Kravica, Sandici, Cerska area.

12             So I think all of these have given an indication of where the

13     column was travelling.

14        Q.   I don't suppose you or anyone else in the Office of the

15     Prosecutor kept a log of all these materials that could be provided to

16     the Defence?

17        A.   No.  There -- they are all items, all interviews, all videos that

18     have been disclosed to the Defence over the years, over the course of

19     this case.  They get used for many different reasons, not just to

20     document the -- the path of the column or what was used on a map.

21        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to now look at P1804 in evidence, another map

22     that you spent some time about.  And the transcript reference for this

23     one is at transcript page 9430.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise.  It seems to be an incorrect exhibit

25     number.

Page 9989

 1             MR. IVETIC:  It should be 1805.  I apologise.  That's the one we

 2     just had up previously that we -- that I said related to Zepa.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Perhaps 1085.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  1085, I think.  There we go.

 5        Q.   Now, I believe at transcript page 9430 during your direct

 6     examination, you identified the bases of your understanding or

 7     interpretation of the marking of a cross on this map to be a video of

 8     General Mladic; am I correct?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   Did you or anyone else in the Office of the Prosecution undertake

11     any further investigations to verify the comments made by Mr. Mladic on

12     the video in relation to this map -- in relation to a map to determine if

13     it was this map?

14        A.   No.  We -- we have these -- as you've seen two maps that have the

15     crosses on them.  And I'm sure we don't have all the maps that were ever

16     marked by General Mladic or General Krstic.  But it wasn't for the source

17     of, did he mark, in particular, this map, just that he explained that he

18     marked a cross on a map.

19        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Gallagher.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, those are all the questions that I had

21     for the cross-examination of the witness as to the maps.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

23             Any need to re-examine the witness on the maps, Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr.  President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that we have heard a part of the

Page 9990

 1     evidence of this witness.  The witness still to be expected to appear at

 2     a later moment to testify about other matters.

 3             Which means that you are under the same instruction as you were

 4     before; that is, not to communicate in any way about your testimony,

 5     either given already or still to be given although on a different

 6     subject.

 7             Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Ms. Stewart reminds me that

 9     we have a MFI P1087, MFI only, for the map book, and so we would like to

10     offer it into evidence.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would restate my objection given the

12     testimony of this witness that she cannot give us the information for the

13     markings and is not the person most qualified to testify about the map

14     book and how it was generated, that it is not something that has been

15     properly laid the foundation for through this witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  What is the purpose of all these markings?  Is that

17     to visualise the Prosecution's position on many of these matters is, or

18     is it that you say:  On the basis of what markings that were made, that

19     it is evidence of the truth of -- that there was a mass execution or

20     whatever?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's multi-faceted.  As we begin, we can see that

22     it's just a general background to help familiarise the Court with things

23     that the Drina Corps, the brigade units, things like that.  And then we

24     go into Mr. Ruez's maps as described by the -- the witness.  Let me just

25     see.

Page 9991

 1             We start off with general Bosnia maps, then we break it down to

 2     the corps, then the particular Drina Corps, and then there is just a

 3     general map to help visualize the entire area.  And then we get to the

 4     map, it's page 9 in e-court, the -- it's been spoken to at some length

 5     which Mr. Ruez has spoken about it at some length and showed us several

 6     different ones.  It's not meant to be evidence of mass graves -- of

 7     execution or mass graves but just to be an illustration of what is

 8     charged in the indictment and what is the position of the Prosecution as

 9     to the location.  It's certainly, of course, not evidence in and of

10     itself.

11             And it's -- to help illustrate in a simple manner what we see

12     from, for example, the map that was drawn up in the Zvornik Brigade by

13     Mr. Dragutinovic, the path of the column, in a very simple way so you

14     don't get lost in the detail.  And then as we go on in the map book,

15     we're really getting to the parts of actual real life VRS maps that

16     sometimes we highlight forward command post for your knowledge; for

17     example, on page 12 in e-court.  Or highlight roads that were present.

18     And then we simply, as we go on, we're just copying some of the key maps

19     from the VRS and blowing them up in different places like the map of

20     The Hague, just for helpful reference.  And that's the way we pretty much

21     end it.

22             And I'm not aware of anything on this map book that's in dispute.

23     If there is, we would be happy to know that so that we can help the

24     Defence and the Court.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We have been waiting during cross-examination to

Page 9992

 1     hear of any dispute or any challenge to the accuracy of any of the

 2     markings.  No questions have been put to the witness in that respect.

 3             Mr. Ivetic, another way of dealing with the matter would be that

 4     you sit together with Mr. Groome and that you make a distinction between

 5     the different kind of maps.  And if you say, We accept this map not for

 6     the truth of the markings but for -- we accept that this visualises what

 7     the Prosecution intends to -- to prove, or -- then you would take a more

 8     map by map approach.  If you say, No, that's not what I want to discuss

 9     with Mr. Groome, then, of course, the Chamber will decide on admission

10     whether or not to admit.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, leaving Mr. Groome out of the

12     picture, Mr. McCloskey and I did, I believe, last time Ms. Gallagher was

13     here, go through and I limited my objections to certain parts of the map

14     binder book, and I believe it was just the OTP-generated maps that were

15     in -- in part A that were the main thrust of my objection.  And I would

16     add to that:  If we are talking about items that are illustrative of a

17     party's position, then those are demonstrative exhibits that are used in

18     openings or in final submissions to the Court.  They are not evidence in

19     the case, and so if those are removed -- I mean, if a witness has

20     personal knowledge about a particular map and it's used with a witness,

21     that's one thing.  But to have documents coming to evidence simply

22     because they illustrate the position of the party and what they want to

23     prove, I don't believe that that meets the criteria under Rule 89 for

24     admission.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You would have no objection that this would

Page 9993

 1     be presented to the Chamber as an illustration of -- of -- of what the

 2     Prosecution position in relation to the A series of --

 3             MR. IVETIC:  At the appropriate time, Your Honour, which would be

 4     at closing arguments, yes, but not as evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you would say that we should be deprived

 6     from such illustration.  I mean, we have -- we have in Mr. Ruez's book we

 7     have found numerous similar situations where there -- I don't remember

 8     that there was major objections to that.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You'd say, Wait until final argument and then you

11     Judges, you can have a look at it, and meanwhile you should forget about

12     it.  If it would have been presented in the opening statement it would

13     have been no problem.

14             I leave it -- I leave it to you whether you want to further

15     discuss a limited use and whether you call it evidence or whether you

16     present it jointly to the Chamber, but if you say, No, I -- it's the

17     position of the Defence that the Chamber should be deprived of this kind

18     of material halfway, then we'll rule on the matter.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, it's the position of the Defence that

20     the Chamber should not have party submissions until the appropriate time,

21     and I stand by that.  It's a very important concept that I was taught in

22     my home jurisdiction and that we feel very strongly about.  There is a

23     time in a trial for evidence and there is a time in a trial for party

24     submissions, and I believe that I'm well within my rights to say that

25     party submissions by the Prosecution should not be presented at this

Page 9994

 1     time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I just asked you whether you want to

 3     meet and see whether you can resolve it with Mr. McCloskey.  And I

 4     indicated that if you think that it's useless, then the Chamber will

 5     decide on the matter.  No one contested your right under your own

 6     jurisdiction, and let's just assume that you have rights under this

 7     jurisdiction as well.

 8             Do you want further to consider it or would you say, It's -- this

 9     is our final position, then we will decide on the matter.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. IVETIC:  That is our position, Your Honours.  We would --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That is your position.  That's clear.  Then the

13     Chamber will decide on the matter.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's nothing else, I don't think that we could

16     proceed with the next witness.

17             But, first, Ms. Gallagher, I instructed you - before we started

18     this other discussion - I instruct you not to speak with anyone.  I don't

19     know when you are scheduled to re-appear not very late, I hope.

20             Mr. McCloskey, any clue as to when you would like to re-call

21     Ms. Gallagher for the other subjects?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  She is currently scheduled to talk about the --

23     the -- the trial video after the next witness, I believe.  And I will

24     speak to the Defence.  That's been on schedule for some time, and I don't

25     see a problem with it, but we'll talk with the Defence and make sure

Page 9995

 1     they're ready to go.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Then I'd like to thank you already, Ms. Gallagher, for having

 4     come twice and expecting you to come for another time.  You are -- you

 5     may follow the usher.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We are about to adjourn so then have you an

 9     opportunity to speak with Mr. Mladic, unless there's any urgent matter

10     you would like to raise at this moment, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             General Mladic wants to address the Chambers on one issue.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One issue.  And what is that issue?  Could you

14     introduce it so we can know whether we should allow it or not.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             MR. LUKIC:  I think that --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Because first of all, we expect, of course, you,

18     Mr. Lukic, to address any issue.  But if there's then any specific matter

19     which would justify for us to let Mr. Mladic address us -- by the way,

20     Mr. Mladic should be seated first.  That's the first thing I --

21             MR. LUKIC:  The issue is a personal nature so I cannot speak

22     instead of Mr. Mladic.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Of a personal nature.  Is it -- should we then go

24     into private session?  I mean, if it's such that cannot speak about it,

25     then I don't think the public should hear about it, would it?

Page 9996

 1             MR. LUKIC:  No, I just cannot speak in his name.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But you're representing him, Mr. Lukic, so you have

 3     to introduce the matter.  We will not just, in the blind, allow

 4     Mr. Mladic to address the Court.  You should introduce the matter and

 5     what it is about and then we will decide whether or not Mr. Mladic can

 6     address the Chamber himself.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Mladic already wrote a letter to the UNDU and --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, could you please remain seated.  It

 9     looks, Mr. Lukic, as though Mr. Mladic wants to briefly consult with you.

10             If there's any letter to be brought to our attention, of course,

11     it can be -- there are ways to bring it to the attention of the Chamber

12     so that we can read it and consider whatever is in there.

13             MR. LUKIC:  He just wants to make this Chamber familiar what he

14     wrote to the UNDU.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you provide us with a copy, then we'll --

16     it will be translated.  We'll read it and we'll certain seriously look at

17     the matter raised in that letter.

18             MR. LUKIC:  We don't have a copy.  It's with the UNDU.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then we'll ask the UNDU.

20             And Madam Registrar, would there be any way, since it seems to be

21     the clear wish of Mr. Mladic that the Chamber becomes aware of it, that

22     copies can be provided?

23             I hope, Mr. Lukic, that you have considered whether it is a

24     matter which is in -- within the jurisdiction of this Chamber, within the

25     competence of this Chamber to deal with, and therefore perhaps the most

Page 9997

 1     practical way of dealing with it would be that Mr. Mladic gives his

 2     consent that the UNDU gives a copy to you so that can you first consider

 3     whether it's appropriate to bring it to the attention of the Chamber, and

 4     if so, then that we receive copies.  That seems to be the most

 5     appropriate way of proceeding.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I cannot either agree or disagree since I don't know

 7     what's in that letter.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then therefore the first step is to

 9     make yourself acquainted with that letter by -- and, Madam Registrar, I

10     saw Mr. Mladic nodding yes several times which I do understand as a

11     consent that the copy be given to his counsel.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, I pass your instructions to the

13     UNDU.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.

15             Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic, I can hear the voice of Mr. Mladic from

16     here and that shouldn't happen.

17             Okay.  We adjourn.  We have suggested a way.

18             Mr. Mladic, you should not speak aloud.  I told you that a

19     hundred times.  I say it again.  You have shown several times that you're

20     perfectly able to whisper in communicating with counsel.

21             Mr. Lukic, we have understood the body language of Mr. Mladic as

22     a consent to give you a copy.  He wants to raise the matter in court, so

23     therefore you would be acquainted with it anyhow.  We'll proceed that way

24     and we'll hear from you after you've looked at the letter.

25             We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

Page 9998

 1     18th of April, 2013, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the morning.

 2                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of

 4                           April, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.