Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9999

 1                           Thursday, 18 April 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.42 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             I was informed that there was one preliminary matter to be

11     raised.

12             Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, good morning Mr. President.

14             Yes, this is in response to your question yesterday regarding the

15     Defence document D00019.  It was a 9 July document regarding the BiH

16     Srebrenica municipality Presidency.

17             We looked into where that came from, and it came from a search by

18     SFOR in 1999 of the 3rd Corps of the Bosnian Serb army, which was the --

19     formerly the Drina Corps and a search of the 503rd Brigade which was

20     formerly the Zvornik Brigade.

21             A number the documents were seized by SFOR, scanned, and then we

22     got CDs and then the originals were given back.  Those collections have

23     been provided to the Defence for years now.  We've all found them useful

24     and reliable, various documents, so we infer that they may have been

25     retrieved by the VRS when the VRS overran Srebrenica because there are

Page 10000

 1     quite a few Muslim documents in that collection.  But that's just an

 2     inference.

 3             In any event, that -- it's -- we have no problem with this --

 4     this collection or its authentication.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that information, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             While waiting for the witness to be brought in -- and if the

 7     Prosecution is ready, we can ask the witness to be brought into the

 8     courtroom.

 9             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution is ready.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have a brief matter which I can address when

11     the witness is arriving.

12             It is about P143.

13             The Chamber notes the Prosecution's request to the Registry,

14     which was sent per e-mail on the 15th of April, in follow-up of a

15     discussions in court at transcript pages 9517 and 9518, to replace the

16     existing surrogate sheet for P143, which is MFI'd, with a revised

17     surrogate sheet bearing doc ID number 22477A-REV.

18             The Chamber instructs the Registry to make this replacement and

19     hereby admits P143 into evidence.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Boering, I take it.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Boering, before you give evidence -- apparently

25     Mr. Boering is not receiving ... on what channel is --

Page 10001

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yup, prima.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You now hear me in a language you understand.

 3     Yes.

 4             Mr. Boering, before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

 5     Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is handed

 6     out to you but let's wait for one second.  That's an English text.  If

 7     you feel comfortable to make the solemn declaration in English, it's

 8     fine.  Otherwise you can do it in your own language.

 9             Which one would you prefer?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] English is fine.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, then please may I invite you to make that

12     solemn declaration.

13             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

14     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  PIETER BOERING

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Boering.  Please be seated.

18             Mr. Boering, as you may have noticed, I addressed you as

19     Mr. Boering.  I also noted that in a previous case you were addressed by

20     your rank and your name.  It's not in any way in depreciation of your

21     rank, but we have the habit in this courtroom to address all our

22     witnesses as Mr. Or Mrs., just for you to know.

23             Mr. Boering, you will first be examined by Mr. Shin.  Mr. Shin is

24     counsel for the Prosecution and you find him to your right.

25             Mr. Shin.

Page 10002

 1             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And let me just say good

 2     morning, Your Honours, and good morning to counsel.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Shin:

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Boering.  Could you please state for the record

 5     your full name.

 6        A.   My full name is Pieter Boering.

 7        Q.   Is it correct that you provided signed statements to the Office

 8     of the Prosecutor at this Tribunal in September of 1995 and February of

 9     1998?

10        A.   Yes, that is correct.

11        Q.   And have you previously testified before this Tribunal in five

12     cases: Namely, Krstic, in March of 2000; Blagojevic in June of 2003;

13     Popovic, in September of 2006; Tolimir in December 2010; and Karadzic in

14     November 2011?

15        A.   Yes, that is correct.

16        Q.   In preparation for your testimony in the Tolimir and Karadzic

17     cases, did you review your testimony in the Popovic case?

18        A.   Yes, I did, indeed.

19        Q.   And in preparing to give evidence here today, did you also have a

20     chance to review your testimony in the Popovic case?

21        A.   Yes, I did that last week.

22             MR. SHIN:  Could I please have 65 ter 28791 brought up on

23     e-court.

24        Q.   And, just briefly, Mr. Boering, it -- do you recognise at least

25     not -- the top part of this page to be from your Popovic testimony, which

Page 10003

 1     you reviewed for your testimony here today?

 2        A.   Yes.  It looks like a familiar piece of paper, although it's a

 3     very short fragment.

 4        Q.   Perhaps we could just turn to the next page as well to confirm

 5     that this is the transcript that -- this is from the transcript that you

 6     had reviewed.

 7        A.   Yes, this is familiar to me.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Boering.

 9             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution would propose to tender

10     the 92 ter transcripts at the end of the direct examination of the

11     witness.  There are some matters which may be clarifications which we

12     would prefer to take through in chronological order in the direct.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You want to tender it at the end?  I already, at

14     this moment, I express some concern about -- about more or less ignoring

15     on a more frequent basis the clear preference of the Chamber to receive

16     92 ter evidence through statements rather than through transcripts.

17             The Chamber will further consider whether we can continue like

18     this.  I already announce this at this very moment, but since there are

19     only two of the Judges present at this moment, I'd rather keep that for a

20     later moment.

21             And I have one additional question for Mr. Boering in respect of

22     his confirmation that this is what he reviewed.

23             Mr. Boering, you have been provided with an English version of

24     your testimony, whereas you gave your testimony in the Dutch language

25     which was then translated.  Are you -- is your familiarity with the

Page 10004

 1     English language sufficient for you to confirm that this is your

 2     testimony; and did you notice anything in the English language which --

 3     which you -- puzzled you as far as your own testimony is concerned?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I have to say that I prefer to

 5     give testimony in my own language before the Court, that this is more

 6     convenient for my own memory and for my own experience.  But, in general,

 7     my command of the English language is sufficient, and therefore I have no

 8     problems reading documents on the matter.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             Then we'll -- you'll wait -- perhaps we already assign a number

11     to it --

12             MR. SHIN:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in order for it to be MFI'd.

14             Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28791 receives number P1139,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P1139 is marked for identification.

18             You may proceed, Mr. Shin.

19             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             And with your permission, may I now read a summary of the

21     witness's testimony.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  You have explained to Mr. Boering

23     what the purpose of it is.

24             MR. SHIN:  I don't recall if I specifically indicated, but he

25     is -- I did explain that there would be a procedure similar to that

Page 10005

 1     followed in the Tolimir and Karadzic cases in which that did occur.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Mr. Boering, the whole purpose of reading a summary is that the

 4     public is aware of the content of your previous testimony which enables

 5     them to better understand any questions that will be put to you after

 6     that.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Shin.

 8             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             I will now proceed with the summary of the witness's evidence.

10             Colonel Pieter Boering arrived in Srebrenica on 3rd of

11     January 1995 as a major in DutchBat where he served as a liaison officer

12     with the ABiH and the VRS, as well as the civilian leadership on both

13     sides and with NGOs.  The witness describes the humanitarian situation in

14     the enclave and the deteriorating situation in the months prior to the

15     VRS attack in July 1995.  As the situation deteriorated, the population

16     in the enclave became more insecure and drew closer to the city of

17     Srebrenica.

18             The witness describes the events during the VRS attack, including

19     the movement of the civilian population into Srebrenica, the shelling of

20     DutchBat's Bravo company compound in Srebrenica, and the movement of the

21     population from Srebrenica to the DutchBat compound in Potocari.  He

22     describes the scene at Potocari where there were thousands of people who

23     were frightened and insecure gathered around the UN compound.

24             After the takeover of Srebrenica, the witness took part in three

25     meetings at the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac on the 11th and 12th of July,

Page 10006

 1     each led on the VRS side by General Mladic.  The witness describes at the

 2     first meeting the threatening language by General Mladic.  The DutchBat

 3     commander early in the meeting was being physically enclosed by the VRS

 4     persons present and the witness had to push back --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin.

 6             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  I'm sorry, I will slow down.

 7             And the witness had to push back to create some space.  DutchBat

 8     brought a Bosnian Muslim participant to the second meeting.

 9             At the third meeting, there were three Bosnian Muslims present

10     when General Mladic indicated that there would be a so-called screening

11     of male refugees for war crimes.

12             Colonel Boering describes the boarding of buses at Potocari on

13     the 12th of July, the separations of men near the Potocari compound and

14     at the buses there, and the detention of those men in the White House in

15     Potocari.  He accompanied the first convoy from Potocari to the

16     Luke-Tisca area where he met VRS Major Sarkic and witnessed men being

17     separated and taken in the direction of the woods by the VRS soldiers.

18     The was asked to escort the women and children through no-man's land to

19     safety in Muslim-held territory.

20             And that concludes the summary.  If I may continue on with some

21     questions, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Shin.

23             If you have any further questions to the witness --

24             MR. SHIN:  Thank you very much Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

Page 10007

 1             MR. SHIN:

 2        Q.   Mr. Boering, just some background questions first.  Are you still

 3     in the military?

 4        A.   Yes, I am.  I'm working in Enschede at a school where, for NATO,

 5     the UN, and EU where programs for the [indiscernible] are provided both

 6     for military personnel and civilians.

 7        Q.   And what is your current rank?

 8        A.   My current rank is that of lieutenant-colonel.

 9     Lieutenant-colonel.

10        Q.   I'll now move on to some questions relating to the first

11     Hotel Fontana meeting.

12             In your Popovic testimony, you testified that on the 11th of

13     July, DutchBat commander Colonel Karremans, yourself, and DutchBat

14     Sergeant-Major Rave attended a meeting at the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac.

15     This was the first of three meetings at the Hotel Fontana.

16             I'd like to play a few brief segments of a video of that meeting.

17             MR. SHIN:  And if I may please have the following segment played.

18     This is from 65 ter 28780, and that's ERN V000-9265.  The timing there is

19     from 33 minutes and 33 seconds to 35 minutes and -- I'm sorry.  35

20     minutes and 53 seconds.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Before it be played, Mr. Shin, you referred to the

22     testimony in -- in the Popovic case.  Could you give us a page reference?

23             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  The discussion of this -- of the fact of this

24     meeting on that date would be on page 1941, lines 9 through 10.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 10008

 1             MR. SHIN:  And if I may then please continue with the video at

 2     that time segment I had indicated.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

 4             MR. SHIN:

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, if you could please take a look at the video.

 6                            [Video-clip played]

 7             "I think General Mladic do not understand well.  I'm not the

 8     person who requested that specific phase that the Force Commander will

 9     have those means available and during the situation, as the situation

10     occurred in the enclave, he will decide.

11             "That request they have considered after a long time.

12             "The only thing I do is, let's say, I put the information through

13     sector in Tuzla to BiH command what's going on in the enclave.  Not only

14     military-wise but also for the population, because that is one of my

15     tasks as well humanitarian side of the enclave ... yes."

16        Q.   Mr. Boering, I won't be going through all the identifications in

17     this video of the meeting as that is already set out in your Popovic

18     testimony.  But could you just identify from the segment we have just

19     seen who was that who was translating for General Mladic?

20        A.   That was Jankovic.

21        Q.   Do you know the rank of this Mr. Jankovic?

22        A.   That wasn't clearly visible.  He might have been a colonel.

23        Q.   You testified in the Popovic case that there were also others at

24     this meeting, including Major Momir Nikolic.

25             MR. SHIN:  And for Your Honours, that's referenced at 1943, lines

Page 10009

 1     8 through 15.

 2        Q.   And also a VRS officer named to your recollection either Kosovic

 3     or Kosoric, and that would be at page 1948, lines 14 through 25, this

 4     latter individual responsible for transporting the refugees.

 5             Now, you indicated that these persons were at the meeting though

 6     not on the video.  How many officers do you recall were at this meeting

 7     in total, whether visible on the video of the meeting or not?

 8        A.   I think that, in total, there were about ten from the VRS side.

 9        Q.   In your Popovic testimony, you also noted that not all of this

10     meeting was captured on this video.  What we saw just now was the

11     beginning of this video, and we see that the -- that the translation was

12     beginning in mid-sentence from the beginning of this video.

13     Approximately how long would you recall that this meeting was underway

14     before this segment of the video begins?

15        A.   I think that this must have been at least ten minutes.  At least

16     ten minutes at the beginning have not been recorded.  And also later on

17     in the course of conversations, some parts have not been shown.

18        Q.   Okay.  I would now request to play two more segments, each about

19     one minute long.  And I would like to begin at 38 minutes and 41 seconds,

20     going to 39 minutes and 51 seconds.

21                            [Video-clip played]

22             "No, not again, that's not decided by me.  I asked for, that

23     something, what they offer, they make decisions on what I would, on

24     information from the bottom to, let's say even to the United Nations in

25     New York.

Page 10010

 1             "Don't do fantasy here, Colonel, and just simply tell me did you

 2     give order that two soldiers shoot my soldiers?

 3              "I gave the order to defend themselves.  That's ..."

 4             MR. SHIN:  And if we could please then move onto the next

 5     one-minute segment, beginning at time 47 minutes and 13 seconds, going to

 6     48 minutes and 15 seconds.

 7                            [Video-clip played]

 8             "Assisting the military for ... yeah, I normally do smoke.

 9     Normally I do smoke ... but I smoked so much the last days --

10             "That is concerning the observation post, the OP.  That's a

11     personal remark.  That I'd like to thank the Bosnian Serb military for

12     treating my soldiers well.

13             "You don't need to thank.

14             That's --"

15             MR. SHIN:

16        Q.   Mr. Boering, my question to you now that we've seen these

17     segments, in your Popovic testimony, you explained that you and the

18     others felt threatened at this meeting.

19             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, the reference is page 1945, line 17

20     through page 1946, line 8.

21        Q.   You also refer specifically in that testimony to General Mladic's

22     comments regarding what might happen if air-strikes were used again.

23             Now, we've just heard that the -- General Mladic explained that

24     these DutchBat soldiers would no longer be hosts and that they know how

25     to bomb too, "they" meaning the VRS, I think we are to understand.

Page 10011

 1             That reference to air-strikes by General Mladic, was this the

 2     threat that you were referring to in your Popovic testimony?

 3        A.   Yes, that is a clear reference.

 4        Q.   What was your understanding would happen if there were further

 5     air-strikes?

 6        A.   If air-strike would have followed, at least the soldiers that

 7     have been taken hostage would no longer be treated well and possibly even

 8     they could have come under serious threat, and the same could happen to

 9     our compound in Potocari or to the refugees.  And when one threatens with

10     bombs, then we knew that the Serbs had positions in place surrounding the

11     enclave to do so, so that therefore it was perfectly possible for them to

12     do so.

13        Q.   Mr. Boering, earlier in your Popovic testimony, you mention that

14     there had been radio contact from DutchBat soldiers who were imprisoned

15     in Bratunac.

16             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, that's at 1928 and 1929.

17        Q.   The radio contact from these soldiers indicated that air support

18     endangered those that who had been taken prisoner so it should stop.

19             You testified in Popovic that you considered that a threat.  Just

20     to be clear, who did you understand that threat to be coming from?

21        A.   This threat also came from the VRS side.

22        Q.   Were you aware of that contact that we just discussed from the

23     DutchBat soldiers imprisoned in Bratunac?  Were you aware of that contact

24     before or after this first Hotel Fontana meeting?

25        A.   I was aware of this prior to the meeting.

Page 10012

 1        Q.   And how did that knowledge have an effect on your understanding

 2     of what you say was General Mladic's threat?

 3        A.   This was an affirmation of the information I had received

 4     previously.

 5             MR. SHIN:  I would now like to play two more brief segments from

 6     this meeting.  The first one would be 55 minutes and 37 seconds to 57

 7     minutes and 42 seconds.  And the second is 59 minutes, 13 seconds, to 1

 8     hour, 2 minutes, and 10 seconds.

 9             So if we could have the first segment, please.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11              "... to stop on behalf of the population what had been done,

12     let's say in the last six days.  Everybody likes to have a status quo

13     situation and then leave the enclave.  And that's on behalf of the

14     civilian population.  I asked for, let's say, the safe area around my

15     compound in Potocari through OP-Papa.  As being the compound safe area

16     because I'm now there with, let's say, 300 soldiers and more than 10.000

17     persons.  We would like to do as much as possible for the population.

18             "Are you married man, do you have children?

19             "I have two children

20             "For how long you haven't seen them?

21             "Half a year."

22             "Would you like to see them?

23             "Of course."

24             MR. SHIN:  And could I have the next segment now, please.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 10013

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if there's any need for technical

 2     assistance, it will be provided.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Mladic does not have translation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we check whether ...

 5             Mr. Lukic, fixed?

 6             Thank you.

 7             Let's proceed.

 8             MR. SHIN:  Can we please continue with the video.

 9                            [Video-clip played]

10              "What can I say to General Nicolai after we have met here

11     tonight?

12             "You don't have too much good of the conversation with

13     General Nicolai.  He cannot help neither you nor the Muslim population.

14     But if you do insist anyway, you tell him ... pass onto him:  UNPROFOR

15     troops, no matter of the air-strikes, no matter of your soldiers shooting

16     at my soldiers, are not the goal of mine.  Every one of you and your

17     soldiers have only one life, and I do not believe that you would like to

18     leave here.  That's why I ask you for absolute co-operation.  The goal of

19     my action is also not the Muslim civilian population.  I want to help

20     you, even though you do not deserve it.  Not as a human nor as an

21     officer.  But I will do it for the sake of those children within the

22     UNPROFOR ranks.  Because I wouldn't like their mothers to welcome them in

23     coffins.  I also want to help to that Muslim civilian population which is

24     also not to be blamed for what happened.  That's I would like to ask you

25     the next thing:  Are you able and when would you be able to bring here

Page 10014

 1     the representatives of civilian population?  I would have an arrangement

 2     with them.  From here you can go out, all of you, or stay, all of you, or

 3     die, all of you.  And I wouldn't like you to die."

 4             MR. SHIN:

 5        Q.   Mr. Boering, my question for you is:  Having heard now this -- as

 6     we've seen on the video segment, the reference by General Mladic to each

 7     DutchBat -- I'm sorry, each DutchBat soldier having only one life, how

 8     did you understand that comment during this meeting?

 9        A.   This was a clear threat.

10        Q.   Now we also heard General Mladic indicating that UNPROFOR was not

11     a goal or objective of the VRS.  Did hearing something like that -- did

12     hearing that change your feeling of what you've described as a

13     threatening meeting?

14        A.   No, the threat was still in place, if we would only behave in the

15     way that corresponded to Mr. Mladic's ideas.

16        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to move to a slightly different topic.  This is

17     relating to the DutchBat prisoners.

18             Now, just before the start of this meeting, you discuss in your

19     Popovic testimony seeing the DutchBat soldiers held prisoner at the

20     hotel.

21             You explain in your Popovic testimony that they were "under

22     guard."

23             And that's on page 1942, lines 16 through 20.

24             Mr. Boering, could you please briefly explain what you meant by

25     that phrase, "under guard"?

Page 10015

 1        A.   A short picture of the situation at Fontana Hotel.  I came there

 2     regularly so I knew the way there, and when one entered the premises

 3     moving towards meeting that we just saw, on the right hand side there was

 4     another room, and when passing by the room and looking into it, I saw a

 5     group of my colleagues from DutchBat.  They were sitting there.  They

 6     were clearly sitting in a room, unarmed, at a table, accompanied by VRS

 7     soldiers, who were armed, and I entered the room shortly, asked them what

 8     was happening, what was going on.  I had a short conversation with them,

 9     and it was clear that they did not have the freedom to leave the room and

10     that they felt under threat.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Boering.

12             I'd now like to move briefly to the second Fontana meeting.  You

13     explained in your Popovic testimony that Colonel Karremans,

14     Sergeant-Major Rave, and yourself had returned to the Hotel Fontana at

15     11.00 p.m. on the 11th of July with a Bosnian Muslim you had had some

16     earlier contact with.

17             MR. SHIN:  And general reference, Your Honours, that's at the

18     transcript 1950 and 1951.

19        Q.   I won't be playing any video of this meeting, but I would just

20     like to ask you a couple of questions.  Among other persons you'd

21     identified at this meeting, you testified that you had seen

22     Major Momir Nikolic and this VRS officer named Kosoric or Kosovic at this

23     meeting.  Do you -- do you recall whether either of these officers were

24     seated at the table during the meeting?

25        A.   Yes, they were present.  Both of them were.

Page 10016

 1        Q.   And that would be your recollection even if we cannot see them on

 2     the video itself; would that be correct?

 3        A.   Without any doubt.

 4        Q.   You also had testified in Popovic that --

 5             MR. SHIN:  And, Your Honours, this is at 1952.

 6        Q.   -- that there were two or three civilians present at the second

 7     meeting, and that they had to do with either the police or were otherwise

 8     Bratunac authorities.  My question for you is:  Do you recall whether

 9     these individuals were sitting at the table, whether visible on the video

10     or not?

11        A.   Yes, they were present at the meeting.

12        Q.   And among these civilian authorities, were some or all of them

13     also present at the third Hotel Fontana meeting?

14        A.   Yes, all of them also were present at the third meeting.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             I'll now move to the third Hotel Fontana meeting which you

17     testified was to begin at 10.00 a.m. on the 12th of July.

18             MR. SHIN:  And just the reference on that timing and date would

19     be found on page 1962, Your Honours.

20        Q.   You have -- in your Popovic testimony, have identified persons,

21     several persons who were present at that meeting, so we won't be going

22     through that.  I would like, though, to play a brief video segment here.

23     And this is also from 65 ter 28780 from video V000-9266, and the time

24     reference would be 9 minutes, 53 seconds, to 11 minutes 53 seconds.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 10017

 1             MR. SHIN:

 2        Q.   Mr. Boering, having watched this video segment, my question for

 3     you.  We heard a woman ask, How do I get in touch with them? in this

 4     video segment.  Just so that we're clear, would it be right that that was

 5     the woman, a Bosnian Muslim, who had participated in this meeting?

 6        A.   Yes, we can recognise the voice of Camila, someone I know very

 7     well.

 8        Q.   And now that was -- that statement was, from the woman, was in

 9     response to General Mladic's demand that all the armed men surrender

10     their weapons.

11             Were there any armed Bosnian Muslims in Potocari at this time?

12        A.   As for Potocari at this time, I can say the following.  Just

13     before the meeting, I walked around there to check the situation, and

14     around the compound in Potocari, there were no signs of any armed Muslim

15     soldiers.  One did not see them walking around.  I had seen armed

16     soldiers around the place in days previous to the meeting, but not on

17     that day.

18        Q.   Now this video is about ten minutes long, and in the Popovic case

19     you had testified that the meeting lasted about half an hour.

20             MR. SHIN:  And that reference is at 1974, Your Honours.

21        Q.   In this video segment, General Mladic states that when weapons

22     are surrendered, everyone can stay or go.  Do you recall if

23     General Mladic said anything at this meeting, whether on the video or

24     not, about what would happen if the weapons were not surrendered?

25        A.   If the weapons would not be surrendered, then he would have no

Page 10018

 1     doubt that the enclave would come under attack from his troops.

 2        Q.   Is that something he said or is that your interpretation of the

 3     meeting?

 4        A.   In my view, he actually said this.  And he specifically

 5     emphasised that we needed to look for representatives of the army, we

 6     needed to have contact persons from the army.  That was his ultimate wish

 7     or his final wish.

 8             He could not tolerate any Muslim soldiers to be present in the

 9     enclave with arms, and if there would be no clear surrender to them,

10     without any further ado he would attack and bomb the enclave.  These have

11     been his words.

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Boering, in the -- moving to a slightly different topic.

13     In the Popovic testimony, you also testified about a process of

14     "screening the refugees."

15             MR. SHIN:  And, Your Honours, that's on transcript pages 1969

16     through -- oh, 1969 and some of the following pages.

17        Q.   You had indicated in that testimony that a Serb civilian was

18     introduced by General Mladic as being responsible for "screening" or

19     "inspecting" the refugees for possible war crimes.

20             MR. SHIN:  That would be at 1969, lines 3 through 11, Your

21     Honours.

22        Q.   You had stated also in the Popovic testimony that you were not at

23     that time able to recall any details regarding this process.

24             Now, do you recall yesterday in reviewing and preparing for your

25     testimony here today, that a portion of your Krstic -- that your

Page 10019

 1     testimony in the Krstic case was read to you?  Do you recall that?  Just

 2     yes or no, please.

 3        A.   Yes, I do recall that.

 4        Q.   And -- and did that help refresh your recollection as to which

 5     persons would be the subject of this screening?

 6        A.   Yes.  Memory is a relative phenomenon.  Sometimes it's worthwhile

 7     re-reading one's own statements.  And I have to say that the screening of

 8     a certain age group has, indeed, been discussed at the meeting, and this

 9     specifically concerned men between age 16 and age 60.

10             MR. SHIN:  And, Your Honours, just for your reference, in the

11     Krstic transcript that would be on pages 1174, line 21, through 1175,

12     line 2.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But that's not in evidence, is it.

14             MR. SHIN:  No.  But I -- it was merely used to refresh the

15     witness's recollection.  The evidence is what the witness states now.  I

16     just mention that for your reference, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, I am looking at the clock.  We're already

18     beyond the one hour for the first session.  Could you tell us how much

19     time you would need?

20             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  Your Honour, my understanding is that we started

21     somewhat late, and I will be able to finish in -- within seven minutes.

22     I believe we will still be within the hour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I am looking at the Defence, whether it's preferred

24     to have a break now or to continue for another seven minutes.

25             And, Mr. Lukic, if you want to consult with Mr. Mladic, of

Page 10020

 1     course, you have an opportunity to do so.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Unfortunately, he complains that he is tired already,

 3     so if we can take a break.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we take a break, and we -- first ask the usher

 5     to escort the witness out of the courtroom.

 6             We take a break of 20 minute, Mr. Boering.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we'll resume at 11.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

12             Well, Mr. Mladic, yes, just to check.  No one -- everyone was

13     silent, Mr. Mladic, so there was nothing to be translated, but now you

14     hear me, I do understand.

15             We'll wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, may proceed.

18             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Mr. Boering, a final question on the topic of the third Fontana

20     meeting.

21             Just before the break, we had discussed a civilian who had been

22     introduced as -- by General Mladic as being a person who would deal with

23     the so-called screening of refugees.  My question to you here:  Do you

24     recall whether the civilian individual so identified for this process

25     knew one of the three Bosnian Muslims who attended this third Fontana

Page 10021

 1     meeting?

 2        A.   Yes, I do recall.  At the start of the meeting, the

 3     representative of the Muslim women, Camila, had a talk with the civilian.

 4     And they were talking in their own language so I couldn't grasp what they

 5     were saying, but I think they used to be in primary school together, so

 6     at the beginning of the meeting they were chatting.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Boering.  Now the last area that I would like to

 8     raise some questions relates to the -- let me put it this way.  In your

 9     Popovic testimony, you described the arrival of the first convoy from

10     Potocari to a place near Tisca from which the people got off the bus and

11     then proceeded to walk to Kladanj.

12             MR. SHIN:  And, Your Honours, that would be at 2022 to 2025 in

13     the transcript.

14        Q.   At the point where people got off the bus, you testified also

15     that some men were separated by VRS soldiers and led in the direction of

16     the forest but that you were blocked from seeing where they were going

17     ultimately.

18             You also describe on page 2023 speaking to Major Sarkic of the

19     VRS, who you indicate was the person in charge there.  My question here

20     is:  Do you recall asking Major Sarkic about the separations?

21        A.   I recall that I had asked him about this.  Yes, I do.

22        Q.   And what do you recall his response was when you asked him?

23        A.   He stated to me that he was getting orders to act so that he

24     simply had to execute orders, that he didn't have a complete picture of

25     what was going on, and he also asked me to -- to mention the number of

Page 10022

 1     refugees with whom he would have to deal in the future.

 2        Q.   And, just to be clear, then, did he directly respond to your

 3     question about the separations?

 4        A.   In my opinion, he stated that he had to execute the orders.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Boering.

 6             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, I would now propose to return to the

 7     issue of the 92 ter transcript, and if I may ask the remaining questions

 8     in that regard.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, of course, attestation, you can ask those

11     questions, which does not mean that we'll are immediately decide on the

12     matter but it is pre-condition for admission.  So if we want to consider

13     admission, it's better to have those questions already answered.

14             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Mr. Boering, we had discussed earlier your opportunity to review

16     the testimony from the Popovic case.  Now, were you able to identify any

17     clarifications or corrections that you wish to make to that testimony

18     apart from the information you provided today regarding the third Fontana

19     meeting and the information you provided today regarding your discussion

20     with Major Sarkic?

21        A.   No.  No further information.

22        Q.   So if you were asked about these matters today, the matters

23     raised in your Popovic testimony, would you provide the same information

24     in substance as that contained in your Popovic testimony?

25        A.   I would assume, yes.  But, of course, sometimes my recollection

Page 10023

 1     is a bit flawed.

 2        Q.   To the best of your recollection today, does your Popovic

 3     testimony plus your evidence today capture what you can best recall about

 4     the events?

 5        A.   Yes, most certainly.

 6        Q.   And having taken the solemn declaration at the beginning of court

 7     today, do you affirm that the information in your Popovic testimony is

 8     truthful and accurate?

 9        A.   Indeed.

10             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender

11     65 ter 28791.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think it was already marked for

13     identification.

14             MR. SHIN:  Yes, I'm sorry, it has been marked.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We leave it like that for the time being and the

16     Chamber will further consider admission at the end of the testimony of

17     the witness.

18             MR. SHIN:  Shall I then take up the associated exhibits at the

19     end of the testimony?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, perhaps it's better to deal with that already

21     now.  We'll then include them in the totality of our decision.

22             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  Your Honours, there will be seven associated

23     exhibits since one has now already been admitted or MFI'd in this case.

24     I'm not aware of any objections, but --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would list --

Page 10024

 1             MR. SHIN:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- so that Madam Registrar assigns numbers.

 3             You say you are not aware of any objections.

 4             Mr. Stojanovic, is that --

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So there are no objections against admission.

 7     Irrespective of -- but let's -- they're associated.  Let's wait.

 8             MR. SHIN:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If you list them then Madam Registrar will assign

10     numbers.

11             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  The first one is 65 ter 13603.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, that would receive number?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives P1140, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Next one, Mr. Shin.

15             MR. SHIN:  Next one is 04807.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1141, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Next one.

19             MR. SHIN:  22446.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1142, Your Honours.

21             MR. SHIN:  04474.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1143, Your Honours.

23             MR. SHIN:  13602.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1144, Your Honours.

25             MR. SHIN:  04409.

Page 10025

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1145, Your Honours.

 2             MR. SHIN:  And 05217.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1146, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 5             MR. SHIN:  And, Your Honours, that concludes the questions from

 6     the Prosecution in the direct.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you Mr. Shin.

 8             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P1140 up to and including P1146 are marked for

10     identification.

11             Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

12             Mr. Boering, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

13     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic, and you will find him to your

14     left.

15             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning.  Could you please tell us about

18     your specific duties in the Dutch battalion in 1995.

19        A.   Within the battalion, which was comprised of about 450 soldiers,

20     there was a headquarters, and the headquarters was comprised of about 15

21     people.  And I was working there and I was attributed to the area of

22     contact, liaison with both VRS and ABiH, civil liaising, and over time

23     also liaising with the military counterparts.  So as I said I was the

24     liaison officer.

25             My area had to do with assessing the humanitarian situation, and

Page 10026

 1     there was also consultation with both sides.  I had to consult with both

 2     sides of the military and, if necessary, I had to inform the commander

 3     and involve him in this.

 4        Q.   You were affiliated with Sector 5 of your battalion.  You were

 5     not in the customary chain of command of the battalion.  You were

 6     directly subordinated to the battalion commander; is that right?

 7        A.   As a HQ member, you are subordinated, indeed, to the commander.

 8        Q.   Could you receive your orders from Mr. Franken, who was the

 9     deputy battalion commander?

10        A.   That would occur.

11        Q.   And did you ever report to Mr. Franken on any occasion,

12     whatsoever?

13        A.   No.  Let's say that on an almost daily basis there was a

14     consultation with the battalion HQ, and both Karremans and Franken

15     attended those meetings.

16        Q.   Could one say that you were the best informed officers in the

17     Dutch battalion, that you knew a lot about the situation in the enclave

18     of Srebrenica, given the nature of your tasks and duties?

19        A.   Let's just say that I was among the better informed, but, of

20     course, there were other people who were equally well-informed.

21        Q.   Was it part of your mandate and the mandate of Sector 5 that you

22     belonged to, to react and disarm any armed members of the BiH army,

23     should such members of BiH army be observed?  Were you able to do that?

24        A.   One of our missions was to disarm the BiH army, so as soon as we

25     spotted that, we had to act.  And, of course, in consultation with the

Page 10027

 1     Muslim authorities, we tackled this issue.  For instance, within the

 2     enclave, there was also an arms depot, a Weapons Collection Point, and

 3     confiscated weapons, weapons confiscated by DutchBat that is, were

 4     subsequently managed by DutchBat.  So, yes, we did play a role in that,

 5     but direct action was quite difficult a task.

 6        Q.   I fully appreciate that.  I would like you to tell the Court

 7     whether I am right in saying that one part of the demilitarised zone of

 8     Srebrenica was an area in which you, members of the battalion, could not

 9     access or could not move freely around.

10        A.   There was, indeed, an area to which we had limited access.  That

11     was the so-called Bandera triangle.

12        Q.   Could you please tell the Court, to your best recollection, which

13     part of the demilitarised zone of Srebrenica would that have been?

14        A.   It was the western part.

15        Q.   That was an area where the officer of the military unit that was

16     deployed there was Zulfo Tursunovic; is that right?

17        A.   That is correct.

18        Q.   In 1995, there came a time when the commander of that unit of BiH

19     army took members of the Dutch battalion as hostages.  Do you remember

20     that?

21        A.   Yes, I was one of them.

22        Q.   You had a delicate task where you were supposed to try and rescue

23     those men, and then you yourself became a hostage of that same military

24     unit; right?

25        A.   That is correct.

Page 10028

 1        Q.   To the best of your recollection, how much time did you and the

 2     other members of your battalion spend in that situation?  How long were

 3     you held hostage?

 4        A.   To the best of my recollection, two or three days.

 5        Q.   Were you disarmed?

 6        A.   I don't remember.

 7        Q.   Will you please tell us whether you observed that the members of

 8     BiH army who imprisoned you were armed on that occasion in Bandera

 9     triangle?

10        A.   I think I had to surrender my weapons.  They took my weapon.  And

11     there were also a few locals present there with hunting rifles who

12     were -- who had taken us hostage.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With the Court's permission, I

14     would to call up 65 ter 19417.

15        Q.   I would like to draw your attention to --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before do you that, Mr. Stojanovic, is your

17     question at line 17 to 19, page 29, answered?  It has not been answered.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I understood the witness

19     properly, my question was partially answered, and I will pursue the same

20     line of questioning after --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your question was -- your question was,

22     Mr. Stojanovic:

23             "Will you please tell us whether you observed that the members of

24     the BiH army who imprisoned you were armed on that occasion in

25     Bandera...?"

Page 10029

 1             Have you got an answer to that question?  I don't see it.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In the interpretation that I'm

 3     receiving, the witness said that they were armed, that there were a few

 4     locals with hunting rifles.  That's on lines 20 and 21 on page 29.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before we look at the next document,

 7     could I remind you that there's no need to repeat questions in

 8     cross-examination which are answered in-chief already, such as the

 9     Bandera triangle no-go area, whether he was taken hostage or not.  That's

10     already clearly already in -- in the transcript.  So, therefore, there's

11     no need to repeat anything.  Focus your cross-examination on what you

12     want to challenge or what supports your own case.

13             Please proceed.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, just one notice, in relation to

15     document just called, original is not uploaded in e-court or it's

16     uploaded empty.  There is only a translation that I'm just publishing

17     now.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, any explanation for that?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] According to my information,

20     this is a translation.  We are interested in page 13.  This is a

21     debriefing record that we received from the Prosecutor.  I'm interested

22     in page 13, paragraph 203.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, what I see, I see as in -- what is a document

24     which is presented with ET, which means English translation.  I do not

25     see any B/C/S translation at this moment.  Or is there?  Let me just

Page 10030

 1     check.  And it may be that the original is in another language, not

 2     English, not B/C/S.  Let me just check.

 3             I see the original presented.  If I -- if -- if I, in e-court,

 4     seek access to the original, it says "no images files were found for this

 5     document."

 6             So apparently it's not at this moment in e-court.

 7             Any objection, Mr. Shin, to working at this very moment on the

 8     basis of the English translation?

 9             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, not at this moment.  We may be able to

10     assist shortly in obtaining the B/C/S version as well to assist counsel.

11     And it may -- and I do -- like to indicate right now that it may be

12     necessary to bring up the original in Dutch, if the witness would

13     require.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed at this moment, Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   I'm showing you this part of the debriefing in which you

17     participated.  Could you please explain the part where you say by quoting

18     Mr. Karremans:

19             "Join in, now are you taken hostage.  Go there, see what's going

20     on.  In fact, I was not involved in the Bandera triangle at the time.  It

21     took place between Franken, Karremans and Zulfo.  I personally was not

22     involved in it."

23             I'm asking you what is it that was actually agreed?  What is it

24     that actually happened between Franken, Karremans, and Zulfo which had to

25     do with the Bandera triangle incident?

Page 10031

 1        A.   I can't recall the details.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Among the locals of the demilitarised zone, did you

 3     also see people -- people carrying automatic weapons at any occasion?

 4        A.   Towards the end of that period - so that's early July - weapons

 5     were carried more often.  Prior to that, I hardly ever noted that.

 6        Q.   During that period of time, you also observed a lot of the locals

 7     of the demilitarised zone in new uniforms that they had not worn before

 8     that; is that correct?

 9        A.   Are you referring to the period early July?

10        Q.   That's correct, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could I first seek clarification of

12     paragraph 203.

13             I'll read a portion and then ask a short question to the witness.

14             And, Mr. Boering, you may follow me because you have the document

15     on your screen, I take it.

16             If -- if ... is the document visible for Mr. Boering?  Yes.

17             I'm reading from paragraph 203, and I start somewhere in the

18     middle:

19             "As soon as things went wrong, we were just given the assignment:

20     Go have a look and see what the situation is."

21             And then something with question marks.

22             Then:

23             "No, we just drove there, and there was Zulfo."

24             And then:

25             "'Join in, and now you're taken hostage.'

Page 10032

 1             "'Go there,' Karremans said, 'see what's going on ...'"

 2             Could you tell me the words "join in" and "now you're taken

 3     hostage," who is it that spoke those words?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, that must

 5     have been Zulfo.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Sir, I asked you about July.  In the month of July, did you

10     observe new equipment and new uniforms sported by locals in Srebrenica?

11        A.   Yes, I did notice that.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like us to watch a

13     video-clip, which is 65 ter 28780.  It is V000-9265.  This is a

14     video-clip featuring the first meeting at Fontana.  I would like to ask

15     our dear general to help us.  I'm interested in the portions starting at

16     40 minutes, 30 seconds, and ending at 42 minutes and 37 seconds.

17                            [Video-clip played]

18             "I've been asked by BiH within the enclave eight times during the

19     last month to give the weapons in the Weapons Collection Point.

20             "How many weapons there were in the collection point?

21             "Do you know?  Two -- two battle tanks.

22             "A lot of small arms.

23             "A couple of mortars, and approximately 300 rifles.  I rejected

24     that eight times because, in my opinion, and I explained that to the

25     people in the enclave, it won't serve the case for the population.

Page 10033

 1     Because we tried to, let's say, to have a status quo situation, and what

 2     we have done with the military authorities in the enclave is to collect

 3     the weapons which we have seen by patrolling in the beginning, and they

 4     have been collected in the Weapons Collection Point.  And I'm well aware

 5     that there are a lot of arms in the -- in the enclave, and that they have

 6     been smuggled from outside the enclave.  I have put that many times in

 7     the information to the higher military authorities and nationals in Tuzla

 8     and Sarajevo."

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   Sir, this clip starts with the following words:  Let me hear what

11     you want.  This was General Mladic addressing everybody.  Who was it who

12     called the first meeting in Fontana hotel?  At whose initiative was the

13     meeting organised?

14        A.   I can't fully reply to that question.  I assume that the

15     situation at that point in time was hopeless, which is why I asked to

16     convene a meeting.

17        Q.   Am I right in thinking that you were the one who convened the

18     meeting?  It was at your initiative?  You personally.

19        A.   No, it was not my personal initiative.  There was always

20     consultation with Karremans.  As I said, the situation was hopeless, and

21     I can't remember whether there was a request coming from our side or from

22     Bratunac.  I do remember that at one point a meeting time was

23     communicated upon the initiative of Bratunac, and we were also welcome to

24     that meeting.  Now, it wasn't unusual for both sides to organise these

25     type of initiatives.

Page 10034

 1        Q.   At one point, you whisper into Colonel Karremans' ear, and we

 2     could hear that in the video-clip, There is plenty of small arms.

 3             Do you know what happened to those small arms once you abandoned

 4     the control of the facility where those small arms were stored, after

 5     having been collected there?

 6        A.   In my opinion, around the 10th of July, we left Srebrenica,

 7     together with the refugees, heading for Potocari, and the Weapons

 8     Collection Point was then still managed by the Bravo Company.  I can't

 9     remember any weapons being distributed.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I would like to re-visit an earlier

11     question before we move on.

12             Mr. Boering, you were asked about the initiative for the meeting.

13     Your first answer was -- you explained that the situation was hopeless.

14     And then you said:

15             "... which is why I asked to convene a meeting."

16             Now, in the next -- your answer to the next question, you said:

17             "No, it was not my personal initiative.  There was always

18     consultation with Karremans."

19             Now, further down, you said:

20             "I do not know whether the request came from our side or from

21     Bratunac."

22             First, short question:  What did you refer to when you say

23     "Bratunac"?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bratunac, by that I mean the VRS

25     side.

Page 10035

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say then, I don't know whether the request

 2     came from you or from Bratunac.

 3             Then a little bit further down, you said:

 4             "A meeting time was communicated upon the initiative of Bratunac,

 5     and we were also welcome ..."

 6             I mean, who else than UNPROFOR would participate in that meeting?

 7     So meeting without you, would that have been a meeting at all?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A meeting without us would not have

 9     been a meeting.  There had been a request for a meeting which also

10     included the UN observers in the enclave.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Who else was invited?  Oh, you mean the UN observers

12     in -- and UNPROFOR?

13             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear to me now.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Still, I'm puzzled by you saying, It is hopeless

17     which is why I asked to convene a meeting.  And then a couple of lines

18     down, a bit vague who communicated a time for -- one point, a meeting

19     time.  I would like to know that very clearly.  Was it that you suggested

20     to meet and that they proposed a time, or did they propose to meet?  I

21     mean, who said first, Let's meet?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within the battalion consultation,

23     there was discussions with Karremans and I was involved at that, and we

24     agreed that it might have been -- that it would be a good idea to

25     establish contact with the VRS.  We had radio contact through

Page 10036

 1     walkie-talkie with the Bratunac side.  As far as I can remember, it was

 2     our side who insisted on it, and it might have been me personally,

 3     because I the means of communication, and we did insist on having talks

 4     with them.

 5             That's at least my recollection.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's a clear answer, it seems.

 7             Mr. Shin.

 8             MR. SHIN:  Yes, if I may quickly, Your Honours.  This may be an

 9     opportunity to indicate that 65 ter 19417 has now been fixed, both the

10     English and the -- I'm sorry, both the B/C/S translation and the Dutch

11     original are now available on e-court.

12             If Mr. Stojanovic would intend to take further questions, it may

13     be appropriate to provide the Dutch to the witness.  He has indicated his

14     facility with reading English, but he may not have seen a translation of

15     this; only the Dutch version.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for your information, Mr. Shin.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have to admit that

18     we had already received a B/C/S version of the text from the Prosecution,

19     although it was not uploaded in the system.  We did have it in our

20     possession, physically speaking.

21             I thank you for your assistance, in any case.

22        Q.   I wanted to conclude the questions concerning the footage of the

23     first meeting where Mr. Karremans says that he was fully aware that there

24     was a lot of weapons in the enclave and that it was also being smuggled

25     out --

Page 10037

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  That it had been

 2     smuggled into the enclave from outside.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Was that the kind of information you provided to

 5     Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, or did he rely on some other sources from

 6     which he learned that weapons were being smuggled into the enclave and

 7     that there was plenty of it?

 8        A.   He obtained this information through the observers and the

 9     patrols, patrols organised in the enclave by the DutchBat battalion.  He

10     didn't get this from me.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I wanted to ask you this:  Did you have personal

12     knowledge of the fact that weapons were being brought into the enclave,

13     thus breaching the agreement on demilitarisation?

14        A.   Yes, we knew about this.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I will conclude this topic by trying to be practical

16     in my approach.

17             Would you agree with the position that Srebrenica, at the time -

18     that is to say, in the summer of 1995 - was not demilitarised in the

19     sense of the agreement?

20        A.   As of the first week of July, there clearly was a clear armament

21     of ABiH, but then, of course, at the same time, VRS was attacking the

22     enclave.

23        Q.   Did you have information that from the enclave itself, there were

24     sabotage operations aimed at the VRS?  There was an incident in June 1995

25     with relation to Visnjica village in that regard.

Page 10038

 1        A.   I am aware of this.  I got reports during the briefing, amongst

 2     others, with Major Nikolic in Bratunac.

 3        Q.   I will round off this topic by asking you the following.  To the

 4     best of your recollection, when were you released from your capture in

 5     the Bandera triangle; and, to the best of your recollection, what was the

 6     date and month?

 7        A.   I think it was right at the start of my stay.  Somewhere around

 8     February 1995.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I'll try to be practical yet again and ask you this:

10     Would you agree with me that during your stay in the demilitarised zone

11     of Srebrenica, were you able to observe that there was an active black

12     market in place, that there were consumer goods available that were being

13     sold and bought at high prices?

14        A.   There was, indeed, talk of that.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Would you say I was right if I said that throughout

16     your stay in the area and even before your arrival, the corridor between

17     Srebrenica and Zepa functioned unhindered, which ran contrary to the

18     agreement on demilitarisation?

19        A.   No.  There was smuggling going on between Zepa and Srebrenica,

20     but that occurred along -- alongside our OPs -- or, rather, they bypassed

21     our OPs so our patrols and our observation posts didn't really notice it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before we take a break, which we'll

23     do in a few minutes, I have one other question for the witness.

24             Are you familiar with the details of the agreement to which

25     Mr. Stojanovic referred a couple of times?

Page 10039

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not familiar with the details.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Stojanovic, if you refer to any agreement,

 3     you know that we have had several discussions about several areas with

 4     agreements, whether or not in existence, could you always clearly refer

 5     to what agreement you're exactly pointing at?  Preferably by an exhibit

 6     number so that we are able to verify.

 7             Now the witness has -- you make a composite question, did this

 8     happen, which was in violation of.  Now, the witness only answered two

 9     times the first part of his question, and he did not express himself on

10     whether it was in violation of.  Would you next time if you would be

11     interested to know whether this witness has considered this to be a

12     violation of any agreement, then to be very clear, to ask him

13     specifically about that; and then, second, to point to the agreement

14     itself so that the Chamber is able to follow and to understand the

15     answer.

16             We will take a break.

17             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was informed that you

20     wanted to address a matter today.  I do not know whether you want to do

21     it now or whether you would like to do it at the end of this session.

22     And the Chamber would like to be informed about what the subject is you

23     would like to address, in order to be able to consider whether it's

24     appropriately brought before the Chamber or whether it should be

25     elsewhere.

Page 10040

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I can inform you that we are not going to raise that

 2     issue today.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then that is clear.  Thank you for that information.

 4             We take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we briefly turn into private session for a

11     second.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10041

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honour --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.  We are now in open session.

20     Would you like to continue in private session?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, can we go for a minute

22     to closed session, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We move into -- private session would do, I

24     take it, Mr. Stojanovic?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.

Page 10042

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 10043

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly.  Thank you.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Unfortunately, we have to have a very, very short

 9     break, only of two or three minutes, but that's what an urgent matter

10     which needs attention at this moment.

11             Could I ask the witness to be escorted out of the courtroom, but

12     only for two or three minutes.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  There's not even a need to escort Mr. Mladic out of

15     the courtroom.  Just one second, please.

16             One second, please, I asked, but -- let me see.

17                            --- Break taken at 12.30 p.m.

18                            --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for your patience.

20             Mr. Stojanovic, could you give us a -- a more detailed estimate

21     about the time you would need for cross-examination?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  We asked for

23     two and a half hours for this witness.  I hope we will be able to stick

24     to that.  Maybe we will run approximately ten minutes over, which will be

25     due to the fact that there is double translation, or interpretation,

Page 10044

 1     rather.  But I hope I will be able to finish today.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that information.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Sir, we left it off at the moment when we started talking about

 7     the agreement on demilitarisation.  You said that you did not have an

 8     occasion to read it.

 9             I'm asking you now, did you know or were you perhaps briefed

10     about your rights and duties in accordance with that agreement?  And I

11     mean did that happen before you were deployed in Srebrenica.

12        A.   Yes.  We were aware of our mandates and our instructions, so we

13     had received training and instruction on these matters.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I'm moving onto another topic.  I would like to talk

15     about the area between Srebrenica and Zepa.

16             Let me ask you:  Do you know that the DutchBat wanted to prevent

17     that communication as well as the illegal trade, which is why in

18     April 1995 it started setting up a new observation point in a village

19     called Lozine.  And that village is in the southern part of the enclave.

20        A.   Yes, I am aware of that.

21        Q.   You also know, don't you, that those attempts met with some

22     resistance by the military and political authorities of Srebrenica, that

23     they opposed those attempts, they didn't want you to establish a new

24     observation post in that area; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, I do remember that.

Page 10045

 1        Q.   Let us look at 65 ter 17846.

 2             And while we're waiting for the document to appear, let me tell

 3     you that the document was issued by the Command of the 2nd Corps of the

 4     BiH Army on the 29th of April, 1995.

 5             It instructed the Command of the 28th Division with regard to

 6     obstructing the UNPROFOR mandate with regard to that observation point.

 7     I'm going to quote from one part of this document where it says -- sir,

 8     you may be able to follow -- follow.

 9             "With regard to the UNPROFOR attempts in regards the setting up

10     of a new observation post in Lozine, we have to inform you about the

11     following:"

12             Under 1:

13             "The assertion made by UNPROFOR in Srebrenica that, de jure, it

14     has unrestricted freedom of movement and can choose the sites for

15     observation posts in the demilitarised zone of the Srebrenica is accurate

16     (agreement on the demilitarization of Srebrenica and Zepa of 8

17     May 1993)."

18             Furthermore, in the document, it is suggested in paragraph 3

19     that:

20             "In light of the above and fully cognizant of the serious

21     negative consequences that the potential establishment of an UNPROFOR

22     observation post would have with respect to the BiH army (jeopardizing

23     the corridor to Zepa), we wish to suggest the following ..."

24             My question is this:  Do you remember that UNPROFOR wanted to

25     implement its mandate and prevent communication between Srebrenica and

Page 10046

 1     Zepa which is why it was in -- determined to set up that observation post

 2     in the village of Lozine?

 3        A.   Yes, I do recall that.

 4        Q.   Within the framework of your mandate, did you manage to establish

 5     that observation post or were you prevented from doing so by the locals?

 6        A.   I can remember that it took quite some time to try and establish

 7     an observation post there and that, in the end of the day, as far as I

 8     can recollect, a site has been chosen but not at the spot that we had

 9     envisaged.

10        Q.   Let's look at paragraph 4, which is on the following page of the

11     same document.

12             "The 2nd Corps of the BiH army hereby instructs the Command of

13     the 28th Division that the -- the demand to have that observation post

14     set up in the proposed location should be accompanied by a public

15     gathering of the residents of Srebrenica, particularly women and children

16     (a method used by the aggressor with great success on a number of

17     occasions) who are capable of preventing, through organised action,

18     UNPROFOR from setting up an observation post in the village of Lozine

19     sector."

20             Do you remember that there were such actions aimed at obstructing

21     your mandate?

22        A.   No, I cannot remember such a thing.  I can remember that the,

23     let's say, mayor brought this up.  He expressed a dissatisfaction with

24     the idea of establishing observation posts there.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, is there any dispute about these

Page 10047

 1     matters?

 2             I'm looking at you, Mr. Shin, but since Mr. McCloskey is present

 3     as well who has an overview of this part of the case, as we understand.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I'm not aware of any real dispute about OPs

 5     or where they're located.  I think it's just --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And also not about - because that seems to be the

 7     issue - obstruction by the armed forces to freely choose where to

 8     establish observation posts.

 9             No dispute about that?

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm not aware of any.  I -- I know that there --

11     there will be some evidence of some -- of the Dutch forces being

12     obstructed by both sides.  [Overlapping speakers].

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but we are now focusing at this moment on,

14     apparently that's what Mr. Stojanovic is doing, is that the ABiH

15     obstructed, more or less, the establishing --

16             If there's no dispute, Mr. Stojanovic, why spend time on it?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if there's no

18     dispute, and if it has been acknowledged that there was a corridor

19     between Srebrenica and Zepa and that that observation post was

20     established in order to prevent communication along that corridor, I

21     don't have any further questions.  If the contents of the document have

22     been recognised bearing in mind what the objective of Krivaja 95 was.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, the content of the document, of

24     course, is what the document says.  Now, whether that's all true and

25     right, et cetera, of course, is a different matter.  But I have not heard

Page 10048

 1     any questions about that specifically.

 2             So try to keep in your mind, Mr. Stojanovic, when proceeding that

 3     it seems to be a mainly indisputed subject.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to

 6     tender 65 ter 17846.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And when I said "indisputed," I don't know whether

 8     it's good English.  Because something is in dispute, but I take it

 9     "undisputed," so I should correct myself.

10             Please proceed.

11             Mr. Shin, anything?

12             MR. SHIN:  I believe Mr. Stojanovic had just tendered a document.

13     I was merely going to indicate we had no objections.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, no objections.

15             Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 17846 receives number D272,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             With your leave, I would like to go back to the first meeting at

22     Fontana hotel.  I'm asking for the Registrar's assistance with -- at

23     65 ter 28780, V000-9265.  I would like to see the part of the clip

24     starting at 43 minutes, 08 seconds, and ending at 45 minutes, 15 seconds.

25     The clip is a little bit over two minutes long, in other words.

Page 10049

 1                            [Video-clip played]

 2             "I had a talk with General Nicolai two hours ago and also with

 3     the national authorities about the -- about the request on behalf of the

 4     population because I'm not in a position to demand anything.  We -- the

 5     Command in Sarajevo has said that the enclave has been lost and that I've

 6     been ordered by BH Command to take care of all the refugees and are now

 7     approximately 10.000 women and children within the compound of Potocari,

 8     and the request of BH Command is to, let's say, to negotiate or ask for

 9     the withdrawal of the battalion and withdrawal of those refugees and if

10     there are possibilities to assist that withdrawal."

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be problem with the audio.

13             I noticed that the volume of the video is very low and by

14     increasing the volume, then it's better.

15             Mr. Lukic, if there's any need to re-play it, just let us know.

16                           [Defence counsel confer]

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we re-play the video,

18     starting with 43:08.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll re-play it.

20                            [Video-clip played]

21              "... we collected all those weapons

22              "What do you want?

23              "I had a talk with General Nicolai two hours ago, and also with

24     the national authorities about the -- about the request on behalf of the

25     population.  It's a request because I'm not in a position to demand

Page 10050

 1     anything.  We ... the Command in Sarajevo has said that the enclave has

 2     been lost and that I've been ordered -- ordered by BH Command to -- to

 3     take care of all the refugees and are now approximately 10.000 women and

 4     children within the compound of Potocari.  And the request of the BH

 5     Command is to, let's say, to negotiate or ask for the withdrawal of the

 6     battalion and withdrawal of those refugees and if there are possibilities

 7     to assist that withdrawal."

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   Sir, this clip starts by General Mladic saying, What do you want?

10     You requested a meeting.  And then Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans said that

11     he spoke to General Nicolai.  And I'm trying to draw your attention to

12     the fact that he said that he had spoken with the national government

13     about the demands of the population.

14             I'm asking you this:  Do you know and can you assist us by

15     telling us who was it that Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans spoke to about

16     the demands of the population in Potocari?  And he mentioned some

17     national authorities.  I'm reminding you that that was said at the first

18     meeting.  Can you help us and tell us who that was that

19     Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans spoke to?

20        A.   No, I'm not aware of this information.

21        Q.   Do you know anything about the demands of the national

22     authorities on behalf of the population?  What was supposed to be done on

23     their behalf?

24        A.   As far as I can recall, in any case, concern had to be expressed

25     for the refugees and also on behalf of the DutchBat soldiers.  The losses

Page 10051

 1     should be minimised.  Both the wounded and casualties should be avoided

 2     as much as possible in the future.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'm a bit puzzled.  You asked

 4     Mr. Boering whether he knew who the national authorities were to which

 5     Mr. Karremans referred.  He said, I do not know.

 6             And now you ask him about the demands.  If the witness does not

 7     know even to whom it refers, how could he possibly answer a question

 8     about the demands?

 9             But let's make it clear.  National authorities, Mr. Boering, are

10     you referring to your own national authorities, or are you referring to

11     authorities in the former Yugoslavia?  If you know.  If you can exclude

12     anyone or any authority, then ...

13             Again, if you know.  If you don't know who they are ...

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know with which

15     authorities Mr. Karremans has spoken.  I do know that directives has been

16     issued that there should be no more losses both within DutchBat as among

17     the refugees.  I know that from the national side, that means via the

18     Dutch authorities such a directive had been issued.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you are now referring to the national

20     authorities, you are referring to Dutch national authorities.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly as you say it, that is

22     correct.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   Furthermore, Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans said that he had been

Page 10052

 1     ordered by the UNPROFOR Command in BH to look after the refugees and to

 2     negotiate the conditions of their withdrawal.

 3             Do you know anything about those instructions, about any orders

 4     that may have arrived from the UNPROFOR Command about the conditions

 5     under which those refugees, those people, could be moved from Srebrenica?

 6        A.   No.  I cannot recall anything right now about the specific

 7     details or content from these instructions.

 8        Q.   Could you perhaps tell us anything about the following.  When you

 9     listen to the conversation that you yourself attended, what would you say

10     that was meant when was -- when it was said that there should be some

11     conditions in place for those people to be moved out of the area?

12        A.   I think that this concerns providing sufficient care, safety, and

13     also the voluntary nature of their departure.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And now I'd like to draw your attention to a part of

15     your examination-in-chief.  You spoke about some members of the Dutch

16     battalion that you encountered at the time.

17             Do you agree with me that they were deployed in the observation

18     posts outside of the Command of the Dutch battalion in Potocari and

19     Srebrenica?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Can you tell us where those DutchBat members were deployed at

22     before you met them at Hotel Fontana?

23        A.   They had been assigned to an observation post in the southern

24     part of the enclave; in the southern and the eastern part of the enclave.

25        Q.   Thank you for that answer.

Page 10053

 1             At some point, due to danger of combat, they abandoned their

 2     observation points and were told to go to Bratunac.  They were there

 3     accommodated in the Fontana hotel; is that correct?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a very composite question, Mr. Stojanovic.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll go step by

 6     step, Your Honour.  Thank you.  I'm well aware of it.

 7        Q.   So the first question:  When you saw them, were they accommodated

 8     in the Fontana hotel?

 9        A.   They were staying in that particular room.

10        Q.   You had occasion to see them briefly, and they were all together

11     in a single room on the ground floor of the Fontana hotel; correct?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.

13        Q.   None of them had their hands tied.  They were seated around the

14     table freely, in that room.

15        A.   Has a question been asked here?

16        Q.   It is an assertion.  I wanted to ask you whether it tallies with

17     what you could observe that evening when you entered the room where the

18     battalion members were.

19        A.   Well, they had no freedom of movement.

20        Q.   Well, yes, I asked you if you could observe whether they were

21     tied.

22        A.   No, they were not tied.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, this is what happens if you put two

24     questions in one.

25             Your question was:  None of them had their hands tied.  They were

Page 10054

 1     seated around the table freely in that room.  That's two questions in

 2     one.  But the witness has now answered, I think, both parts of your

 3     question, the one being that they were not tied; second, that they were

 4     not free to move.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to take it one step at

 6     a time.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   After the battalion members were released, did you have an

 8     opportunity to talk to any of them?

 9        A.   No, I did not have such an opportunity.

10        Q.   Very well.  Then I would ask you to jointly comment upon a part

11     of the footage, which is 65 ter 28780, V000-9265.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go from 47 minutes, 46

13     seconds, to 49 minutes, 38 seconds.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  A joint comment, Mr. Stojanovic.  Who would you

15     expect to join Mr. Boering in giving comments?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your understanding,

17     Your Honour, I simply wanted us to look at a portion of the footage

18     together, to hear what Mr. Karremans said at the time.

19                            [Video-clip played]

20             "That I'd like to that you the Bosnian Serb military for treating

21     my soldiers well.

22             "They are here at the hotel

23             "Okay, no problem.

24             "If you keep moving [indiscernible].

25             "How do you see it, the result, the resolution of the situation

Page 10055

 1     here?

 2             "If I may say something about that.  It's not the ... maybe not

 3     the same as what they will say in Sarajevo because they are the

 4     policy-makers.  In my opinion, the enclaves will be ended and that for

 5     the sake of the population and not for the sake of the BiH, I should

 6     assist the population as much as possible, get out of the enclave to -- I

 7     don't know where they will go.  I think that most of them would like to

 8     go on to Tuzla.  I've been there once nearly three months ago.  And, in

 9     my opinion, they have a better way of living than what I've seen in here

10     in the enclave."

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   This clip begins with Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans saying that he

13     was grateful to the Serb military authorities for the way they treated

14     his soldiers.  In your understanding, what are those soldiers that

15     Mr. Karremans was thanking for?

16        A.   I think he is referring to the soldiers that have been taken

17     hostage.

18        Q.   Thank you.  In the rest of the clip, Mr. Karremans continues to

19     speak, saying, I will help the population to leave the enclave.  He also

20     believed that most of them wanted to go to Tuzla.  He also believed that

21     the living conditions there would be better than the ones he could

22     observe in the enclave.

23             Do you believe it was the decision or position of

24     Colonel Karremans, or was it simply a result of the instructions he had

25     received to have the enclave population be sent towards Tuzla?

Page 10056

 1        A.   It's hard for me to read Mr. Karremans' mind, but I think that

 2     this was his intention.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not an answer to the question, I think,

 4     Mr. Stojanovic.

 5             The question was whether you believed that it was the decision or

 6     position of Colonel Karremans, or that it was simply the result of the

 7     instructions he had.

 8             Let me ask you the following.  I'll rephrase the question.  Do

 9     you have any information available which would allow you to tell us

10     whether Colonel Karremans spoke those words as a result of any

11     instructions he had received?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that he had received

13     such detailed instructions.  I have not seen them.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That, again, is not an answer to my question.

15             Are you aware of any instructions in this respect given to

16     Colonel Karremans?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only instruction I remember to

18     have been given is the order given to Karremans to minimise the losses

19     and the casualties and to find a solution at a minimum-loss level.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Instructions received from whom, if you know?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both from the national level, as

22     from Sarajevo.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   If I understood you properly, at the beginning of our

Page 10057

 1     conversation, sir, you were in charge of civilian contact and your

 2     Sector 5 was charged with monitoring humanitarian conditions.  Is my

 3     understanding correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 5        Q.   In this clip, Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans goes onto say that he

 6     believed that most of the population wanted to go to Tuzla.

 7             At any point in time, did you frame such a position and did you

 8     provide such information to Mr. Karremans as to the wishes of the

 9     population to go to Tuzla?

10        A.   Yes, I have provided information several times about the fact

11     that a considerable part of the population had the wish to move to Tuzla.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek clarification of that last answer.

14             If you say that you provided information about the fact that a

15     considerable part of the population had the wish to move to Tuzla, I

16     split that up in two portions.  The first:  Whether they wished to move

17     out; second, if moving out, whether they wished to move to Tuzla.

18             Could you specify your answer, if possible?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In terms of leaving, my answer is

20     yes.

21             About the second part of the question, whether it's specifically

22     to Tuzla, then my answer is that this is one of the places where part of

23     the population originated from and where they ties with.  Other

24     destinations could have been possible as well.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I understand you well that you say they wished to

Page 10058

 1     leave irrespective of where they would finally go.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  In the light of the

 3     situation, in the light of the conditions in the enclave, part of the

 4     population considered the situation to be hopeless and had the wish to

 5     depart.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And was that for a longer period of time?  Was that

 7     for the -- those days in July?  Or was this already in June?  Or May?  Or

 8     earlier?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As of May/June, one already saw a

10     deterioration of the situation, in terms of convoys, in terms of care,

11     already then we saw this process starting.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   Would you agree with me if I said that this conversation, the

14     first meeting at Hotel Fontana on the 11th of July in the evening, took

15     place at a time when the men, husbands, fathers, and sons of the

16     population that was in Potocari, had already decided to engage in a

17     breakthrough to Tuzla?

18        A.   Factually speaking, yes.  Factually, yes, a group had decided to

19     leave.

20        Q.   Do you recollect that by that time you had information from UNMO

21     to the effect that the husbands, sons, and fathers of the women and

22     children in Potocari had set out to attempt to break through to Tuzla?

23        A.   No, I cannot recall any such information from the UNMOs.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, we're close to taking a break.

25     Could I seek clarification of one of the questions and answers.

Page 10059

 1             You talked about the time when the men, husbands, fathers, and

 2     sons of the population had already decided to genital in a breakthrough.

 3             The witness answered:

 4             "Factually speaking, yes.  Factually, yes, a group had decided to

 5     leave."

 6             There is some friction between your question which includes all

 7     the men, at least without any limitation, whereas the witness in his

 8     answer says on the one hand, yes, and on the other hand, refers to a

 9     group.

10             Could I seek clarification, Mr. Boering, was it all the men that

11     had decided to a breakthrough or was it a group?  And are you able to

12     further identify which group?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was talking about a group of

14     military personnel headed by, let's say, a clearly military structure

15     that a few days prior to the fall of the enclave had called a meeting to

16     plan a possible departure.

17             These were the soldiers of the ABiH, and not all men were

18     soldiers.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- could you quantify the size of the

20     group?  If only an approximate number.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was difficult.  However,

22     talking of an estimation, I would say that at least one-third of the male

23     population was linked to the ABiH.  Which leads us to an amount of

24     approximately 2.000 persons.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, we'll take a break, after the

Page 10060

 1     witness has been escorted out of the courtroom.  And we'll resume at

 2     quarter to 2.00.

 3             Do you think you would be able to conclude your

 4     cross-examination?  If not, we'll continue tomorrow.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, taking into account

 6     the area I have left and having in mind the two and a half hours, I think

 7     I'll need another quarter of an hour tomorrow.  If we take into account a

 8     number of logistical different problems, it may be even shorter.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's nice to hear that problems even shorten the

10     time you need.  That's good to hear.

11             Mr. Shin, could you give us already an indication.

12             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honour.  At this point, I would anticipate

13     15 minutes for re-direct.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  15 minutes.  And would your next witness be ready

15     later tomorrow?  I see Mr. McCloskey nodding yes.

16             We take a break, and we resume at quarter to 2.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the arrival of the witness takes one or two

20     minutes, Mr. Shin, there was a matter you would like to raise, as I

21     understand.

22             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honours.  We have looked into the matter

23     about that document.  I believe it was 94 -- 94719.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, if I may assist, 19417.

25             MR. SHIN:  Thank you very much.  And it is indeed a public

Page 10061

 1     document.  That's not to say there's not sensitive information in there,

 2     and documents of that kind have sometimes been used -- discussed in

 3     private session, so that's an option that's available to counsel, but

 4     there's no restriction on it, per se.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is clear.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic, I think, already offered his co-operation in

 7     order not to go beyond what he really needs.  If that's what you would

 8     like to ask questions about, Mr. Stojanovic, would also include other

 9     persons, because that seems to be the concern of the witness, then you

10     could still consider to ask for private session.

11             MR. SHIN:  Yes, that's -- Your Honour, you are correct.  When it

12     regards other people that is where the sensitivity lies, and we do

13     greatly appreciate the sensitivity that Mr. Stojanovic has shown on this

14     issue.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Could we please have document 65 ter 04455 in e-court.

20        Q.   While it is being brought to our screens, sir, it is one of the

21     reports sent by UNMO to their superior command on the 11th of July, 1995,

22     at 1601, if I'm not mistaken.

23             In that regard, I wanted to ask you if it tallies with a response

24     you have provided recently.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, it seems we are still

Page 10062

 1     waiting for it to appear.

 2             Thank you.

 3        Q.   As you can see, this was the basis for my questions and it seems

 4     for your answers as well.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether the witness can see that this

 6     is the basis for your questions, but if you want to ask him whether this

 7     tallies with what he describes, we should first give him an opportunity

 8     to read it.

 9             Mr. Boering, is it -- can you read from the screen?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I've just read the document.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   In it, we see that, among other things, according to a local

13     rumour, a large group of ABiH soldiers is attempting a breakthrough to

14     Tuzla.  Their numbers are still unknown --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, please direct us where are you

16     reading, because we're reading from the beginning of the paragraph -- of

17     the document.  Can you tell us where you are reading?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The first paragraph of the

19     English version.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, but you're starting in the middle,

21     Mr. Stojanovic.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's the middle,

23     Your Honour.  The fifth or sixth sentence, beginning with:

24             "According to local rumours, a large group of BiH soldiers is

25     fighting their way out of the enclave in the direction of Tuzla.  The

Page 10063

 1     number is not known yet but we will try to find out asap."

 2        Q.   Does this confirm the fact you mentioned, which is that at the

 3     time of the meeting at the Hotel Fontana, there was already knowledge of

 4     a certain number of ABiH members having decided to attempt a breakthrough

 5     towards Tuzla?

 6        A.   The observers were already back in the camp in Potocari, so we

 7     were not observing -- they were not observing directly.  They based their

 8     observations upon rumours.  So whether or not there was an outbreak was

 9     not based on their own observations, as, by the way, is mentioned in the

10     report.

11             So if you ask me whether this confirms whether or not a number of

12     ABiH fighters had left the enclave, I can't really tell.  Let's just say

13     that the information is present but it had not yet been confirmed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, your question was also very unclear.

15     You referred to the fact the witness mentioned.  What the witness

16     mentioned for a fact is that he had heard that they had decided already

17     to break through, but whether they did or not is another question.

18             And the other fact the witness stated is that he did not recall

19     any such information from the UNMOs.

20             And, again, I think the witness interprets this document

21     correctly, where he says that these are rumours.

22             So if you are talking about a fact, please precisely indicate

23     what fact you have on your mind.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I seek

Page 10064

 1     to tender this document into evidence, which is 65 ter 04455.

 2             MR. SHIN:  No objections, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04455 receives number D273,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Next, I would like to back to the footage to view a clip.  The

 9     document is 65 ter 27870.  The video is V000-9265.  It is a clip from the

10     second meeting at Hotel Fontana on the 11th of July, 1995, starting at

11     1:16:08 to 1:16:30.  It's only about 20 seconds long.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, for the record, just before we

13     start, the correct 65 ter number is 28780, not 27870.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  28780.  It may have

15     been a matter of interpretation.  Thank you for your correction in any

16     case.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             "Most of people and a women and a lot of children, and also elder

19     people, hardly no men."

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans says that he wants to inform the

22     other participants in the meeting that there are hardly any men in

23     Potocari.  Would you agree with that statement offered by

24     Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans?

25        A.   The bulk were women, children, and elderly people.

Page 10065

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, it is entirely unclear.  You

 2     introduced a portion which was not shown on the video.  What we're

 3     talking about.  Are we talking about the persons which were near to the

 4     compound or the persons remaining in the enclave or persons in Srebrenica

 5     town?  I've got no idea.

 6             Therefore -- but apparently the witness, he has answered the

 7     question, but apparently in a type of understanding of what was said,

 8     which I, at least, and Judge Moloto also, are unaware of.

 9             So could you please clarify with the witness.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   I tried to show a very brief portion of the clip and

12     Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans' words can be heard.

13             My question to the witness is this:  When Lieutenant-Colonel

14     Karremans says, Most of the people are -- are women, children, and

15     elderly, and there are hardly any men, does he have in mind the

16     population that was in Potocari at that very moment?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you -- you said that there were -- the bulk

18     were women, children, and elderly people.  If you remember the discussion

19     at the time, can you tell us what exactly was referred to?  If you

20     remember.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were talking about the

22     composition of the refugees around Potocari, and Karremans stated that

23     the bulk of them were women, children, and elderly people.  And I can

24     remember that.  Because I would regularly walk in between them.  There

25     were a few men because I'd also found that male representative, the

Page 10066

 1     school teacher there.  So it wasn't only women and elderly people and

 2     children.  There were a few men present there, but I can't really give

 3     you any percentages, but I can confirm that the bulk of them were not

 4     men.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say around Potocari, is it around the

 6     compound or around the village or ...

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By that, I mean that when you talk

 8     about these numbers of people, that applies to both.  So especially

 9     around the locality of Potocari.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Sir, we are talking about the second meeting.  Do you remember

13     that anybody said about -- anything about securing buses for the transfer

14     of the population in the direction of Tuzla?

15        A.   I can remember that during these talks there were talks about --

16     during the talks, we mentioned transfer by bus and, in principle, a

17     DutchBat soldier had to be present at those transports in the buses.  In

18     each bus, that is.

19             However, whether or not this was tackled during the second

20     meeting, I can't really confirm.  I think, though, it was said during the

21     third meeting.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at the clip.  And then we will comment

23     upon it.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

25     call up the clip again.  65 ter 28780, V000-9265.  I would look at the

Page 10067

 1     portion from 1:26:45 to 1:29:13.  That will be another clip or a portion

 2     of the clip that was recorded during the second meeting.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             "Then I asked for a -- let's say, a team from the UNHCR and civil

 5     authorities which can deliver us the means, like buses.  The only thing I

 6     can do is studying the amount of persons and for that amount of persons,

 7     we need, let's say, transport.  Counting.  But if it's possible, I can

 8     ask for buses through my own authorities, let's say military authorities,

 9     but I really don't know what they can give me.  I don't know yet.  We are

10     busy with determining which -- which people like to go where, but that

11     needs time, and I don't -- I don't know, of course, what is possible in

12     that -- in that way.  But I presume that that is something what

13     Mr. Mandzic can tell.  I don't know where they'd like to go.  Then we

14     make a -- let's say, a plan for evacuation which persons do need to go

15     first because of age, illness, et cetera."

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   Sir, Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans says in this video-clip that he

18     was going to approach UNHCR or the civilian authorities to ask for buses.

19             When you were preparing for the second meeting, did you have an

20     occasion to talk to Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans?  Did he ever specify

21     which civilian authorities he had in mind when he said that he would

22     approach them in order to request buses for the evacuation of the

23     population?

24        A.   We prepared the second meeting.  We discussed various

25     organisations who might possibly offer support.  Then requests to go to

Page 10068

 1     Tuzla, Sarajevo.

 2             These requests -- we also discussed various organisations, but a

 3     real plan?  That's something I cannot recollect in detail.  It was more

 4     in -- in general.  We mentioned organisations and a way to get out of it.

 5        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans says that drafting any evacuation

 6     plan would involve establishing the priorities of those people who wanted

 7     to leave.

 8             When you were preparing for this meeting, did you ever discuss

 9     priorities and how they would be determined?

10        A.   Yes, I can remember that we discussed this, that we were going to

11     transfer the wounded first and then the elderly and then, at the final

12     stage, the healthy people.  So there were some priorities set there.  But

13     I don't know to how much detail we went when establishing it all.

14        Q.   The authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo, were they

15     informed about that plan of yours, to embark on the evacuation of the

16     population?  Did they know about your plans?

17        A.   I can recall that I sent a fax to Tuzla, that I tried to contact

18     some other organisations, I tried to phone them.  But as far as I can

19     remember, I couldn't get in touch with anybody.  And I don't know whether

20     the fax arrived, but, in any case, I never got any response.

21        Q.   Did Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans or Major Franken tell you

22     anything about the position of the government in Sarajevo -- Sarajevo

23     with regard to your evacuation plans?

24        A.   Not as far as I can remember.

25        Q.   You will agree with me, won't you, that the situation was already

Page 10069

 1     dramatic and that the humanitarian situation in Potocari was verging on a

 2     disaster at the time.

 3        A.   It was, indeed.  But all these events took place with just a few

 4     hours between the various meetings.  Remember that there were only a few

 5     hours in between the first and the second meeting, so that didn't leave

 6     much space for many activities.

 7        Q.   As a contemporary of the events, I'm asking you this:  Who is it

 8     actually who participated in the creation of that evacuation plan?  Who

 9     was involved?  Who was the author of that plan?

10        A.   Which evacuation plan?

11        Q.   I'm talking about the plan that was mentioned by

12     Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans and that you yourself mentioned just a while

13     ago, when you were speaking about priorities when it came to the

14     departure of the population from Potocari.

15        A.   So your question is who took part or who oversaw that evacuation

16     plan?  Is that your question?

17        Q.   No.  Maybe we are having problem in understanding each other.

18             My question was this:  As a contemporary of the events, do you

19     know who it was who participated in the drafting of the plan to evacuate

20     the population from Potocari?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I think the first thing we would

22     have to do is to establish whether there was a plan or whether they were

23     just rough ideas.  I understood the testimony of the witness that no real

24     plans were elaborated but they this discussed priorities without any

25     further detail in it.

Page 10070

 1             So could we first establish with the witness whether there was an

 2     elaborated plan already or whether they were just rough ideas about

 3     evacuating the population.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC:  Okay.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, due to the lack of time, we

 6     were still in the stage where we were just assessing the problem, and we

 7     tried to take these on board during the briefing to see there whether we

 8     could establish a plan.

 9             So at that point there was not yet any plan.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock.  It's time

11     to adjourn.

12             Mr. Boering, we couldn't conclude your testimony today.  It will

13     be concluded tomorrow, and it will - looking at both parties - will take

14     no more than the first session, if I understood you well, so we'll need

15     less than one hour tomorrow.

16             I would like to instruct you not to speak with anyone or to

17     communicate in any other way with whomever about your testimony, whether

18     that is testimony you've given today or whether it is about your

19     testimony still to be given tomorrow.

20             If that is clear to you, we'd like to see you back tomorrow

21     morning, 9.30, in this same courtroom.  You may follow the usher.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow,

24     Friday, the 19th of April, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the

25     morning.

Page 10071

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, did I say Thursday?  Then, of course, I

 3     certainly meant Friday.

 4                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day of April,

 6                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.