Page 10072
1 Friday, 19 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom. The Chamber is
11 not aware of any preliminaries. Therefore, we'll patiently wait until
12 the witness is there.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Boering.
15 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I would like to remind you that
17 you're still bound by the solemn declaration given at the beginning of
18 your testimony yesterday. Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his
19 cross-examination.
20 WITNESS: PIETER BOERING [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning. I hope you're ready to answer a
24 few more questions, and those questions will be about the third meeting,
25 as we call it, or the meeting that was held in the morning on the
Page 10073
1 12th of July in Fontana Hotel. Do you remember whether on that occasion
2 your delegation had received any instructions from the
3 Ministry of Defence of the Netherlands with regard to the treatment of
4 the population in Potocari?
5 A. As far as I can remember, we did not receive any additional
6 directions other than what I already indicated yesterday.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up a
8 video-clip, 65 ter 28780. It is V0009266. I'm interested in the portion
9 of that video that starts at 13 minutes and ends at 14.17 minutes.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. As you can see, sir, this video-clip is actually the ending of
13 that meeting. Colonel Karremans says that he did receive an order from
14 the Ministry of Defence. He says, and I quote:
15 "I received the instruction this morning to assist as much as I
16 can."
17 What should have been that assistance? What would it have
18 consisted of, the assistance that Colonel Karremans is referring to?
19 A. I think that that assistance concerned caring for the refugees as
20 much as possible as well as our own DutchBat.
21 Q. Thank you. When you returned to Potocari, before you set out
22 towards Tuzla and Kladanj with the first convoy, did you have an occasion
23 to see the activities of UNPROFOR members while the civilian population
24 was being loaded onto the buses?
25 A. Yes, I saw some activities, I walked around, and I also returned
Page 10074
1 from Potocari to Bratunac to check some details. Yes, I had the freedom
2 to drive and walk around.
3 Q. Would it be correct to say that UNPROFOR members together with
4 Serbian troops protected the population with their own bodies and let
5 them go through to the buses?
6 A. Whether there was any protection by UNPROFOR of the refugees to
7 enable them to board the buses, the agreement was that first the wounded
8 and the children would leave on the buses and that one DutchBat military
9 man would accompany each bus because of time pressure imposed mainly by
10 the VRS. This didn't happen. The buses were filled as quickly as
11 possible and drove off.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, we continue I'd like to verify one
13 of the previous answers.
14 Mr. Boering, one of your answers was recorded - and it's the
15 second half of your answer - as:
16 "Yes, I had the freedom to drive and walk around."
17 Is that what you said in your own language or did you say
18 something like: "I had some freedom to drive and walk around"?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say I had some freedom to
20 drive and walk around.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Sir, did you observe the activities of UNPROFOR members on that
25 day during the population evacuation process?
Page 10075
1 A. Yes, I saw that and, among other things, I asked them actively to
2 observe several matters.
3 Q. And did you see that the population was willingly boarding the
4 buses, that due to the situation and the dire straits in which they were
5 in they wanted to board the buses as soon as possible? Did you observe
6 that as well?
7 A. What I observed was that it was very hot at that point and a
8 large group of people had not had anything to eat or drink for quite a
9 while - they were in a hopeless situation - and the buses were a way of
10 being able to depart. So a group of people wanted to leave by bus,
11 hoping to be taken to a better place.
12 Q. Did you notice the vehicles that had brought in bread to the
13 population that was there?
14 A. No, I did not see them.
15 Q. Will you agree with me when I say that at that moment the
16 Dutch Battalion did not have any reserves of food, that they could not
17 possibly feed the population that was there?
18 A. We had limited supplies and we certainly could not care for that
19 large group for several days.
20 Q. Will you also agree with me that the number of population,
21 including women, children, and elderly, constituted a humanitarian risk
22 due to the conditions that surrounded them should they have stayed there
23 any day longer?
24 A. Yes, that was a problem.
25 Q. Will you also agree with me that given the number of the
Page 10076
1 population that was there, nobody in the local commune was in a position
2 to provide enough food and medical care as well as any other assistance
3 for a longer period of time?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. And given your position and your contacts, do you know who it was
6 who told the local population that there was a decision for them to leave
7 their homes and set out towards Potocari, if indeed there was such a
8 decision in the first place? So if there was such a decision, whose
9 decision it was and who communicated that decision to the population?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's take it one by one. Was there such a decision
11 that the local population should leave their homes and set out towards
12 Potocari?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember that.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Thank you. If you have to speculate, then you don't need to
16 answer my following question. However, given your position, given your
17 experience, and bearing in mind the configuration of the enclave, could
18 that have been a spontaneous decision or, alternatively, should there
19 have been a plan in place for the population to start moving?
20 JUDGE ORIE: You are asking for a judgement rather than anything
21 else, Mr. Stojanovic. Therefore, if you would put your next question to
22 the witness.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I appreciate the
24 comment, and now, Your Honours, with your leave I would like to call up
25 the debriefing 65 ter 19416. As far as we are concerned, it doesn't have
Page 10077
1 to be broadcast. I'm interested in page 30, 3-0, in English --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, is this a document where you
3 consider it better that it not be brought to our screens? Is that what
4 you are referring to? So then --
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- if you would then give me a moment --
7 yes. And what is now on our screen will not be -- yes. Then please
8 proceed.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. After that I would like to see your answer on page 31. I will
11 read it as well. In that conversation that you had --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, is this a debriefing document
13 related to this witness? Yes --
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Sir, I suppose that you have read the last paragraph on this page
18 in English.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we then go to the following
20 page, where you will find your answer.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which document am I supposed to
22 read?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I suppose that you have that page in English in front of you.
25 I'm interested in the last paragraph in italics. It is a question that
Page 10078
1 was put to you, and then on the following page you will find your answer
2 to that question.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if we do not show it for the public,
4 you're invited to read slowly the text you are referring to so that
5 everyone is able to follow the question without perhaps all the names
6 specifically being put on the record.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. You were asked:
9 "You hadn't in that brief moment ... had you talked about it
10 with one another? How do we interpret what is going on here? Or was
11 there just no time for that? The point is whether you, too, were already
12 looking for explanations, which were given later, as it was already very
13 quickly clear to some people, according to their statements, that there
14 was something fishy going on there. For a number of people it takes
15 perhaps a full day before they get it, 'something's not right here' ..."
16 I'm asking you this, sir: Did you discuss that with your
17 colleagues immediately on the spot, as it were? Did you have an occasion
18 to do that? And your answer was this, you mention names, and you say:
19 "As I've already said, I went there. What's going on here --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure whether the page we have is
21 what you're reading. [Microphone not activated]
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the following
23 page, you have the answer now, the first paragraph on page 31 in English.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've got page 32 now.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 31, please.
Page 10079
1 This is the page, paragraph 1, Your Honours.
2 Q. "As I said," you mention a certain name, "I went there quickly.
3 What's happening here? I quickly stationed the UNMOs. I just told," and
4 you mention another name, "what the situation was and then quickly left.
5 That some of our people were there with tape and were engaged in allowing
6 groups through and possibly also helping with the selection. 'Men go
7 over there. You need to be in that house.'
8 "Q. Had you all had the opportunity? It was not unknown that
9 your people helped to carry out selection.
10 "A. Yes, that's a sensitive subject.
11 "Q. I realise that this involves your colleagues," says the
12 interviewer, "but just ..."
13 And your answer is this:
14 "It's a sensitive subject. You know. So sensitive, in fact,
15 that one colleague was detained," and then you mention the name of the
16 institution "for nearly a year ... that's a well-known fact, I think.
17 After a bit of assistance that was rendered in terms of singling out.
18 That made him number one on the list. It's sensitive. You know."
19 I would like to ask you is this: You provided this statement to
20 a certain body over a decade ago. Does this jog your memory to the fact
21 that you saw UNPROFOR members with tape allowing groups of civilian
22 population to go through towards the buses?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the interpretation
24 perhaps was not clear.
25 Q. When I mentioned the tape - and I was referring to your
Page 10080
1 answer - could you please explain the Trial Chamber what you actually
2 saw. What did you mean when you said "the tape"?
3 A. What I remember is that UNMOs were busy at a building watching
4 where men were being taken away who were selected. I remember that about
5 the UNMOs. And I had asked them to watch the number of the Muslim men
6 who were taken in so that they knew the numbers afterwards. As for being
7 busy with tape, I remember that there was tape, but whether those UNMOs
8 or our soldiers, I thought that those were our soldiers trying to
9 regulate the flow of refugees more so. The group with large numbers was
10 divided into groups contained with a white tape. That's what I remember
11 about the tape.
12 Q. And let me finish with this question: Did you notice that some
13 of the UNPROFOR members were assisting with the selection, saying men
14 should go this way, you have to go into that house?
15 A. I didn't see that. I only asked them to be at that house to
16 watch what was happening. So I assigned them or I asked them to watch
17 what was happening, but I wasn't in command of them, I didn't have that
18 authority.
19 Q. Will you agree with me that according to military regulations it
20 is fully legitimate when you have POWs to make a selection, conduct a
21 triage, and to check whether such a group of people contains persons who
22 might be suspected of having committed war crimes?
23 A. Yes, that seems like a standard procedure if you're -- that you
24 interrogate POWs.
25 Q. And the fact about those checks which, as you say, General Mladic
Page 10081
1 also mentioned contains nothing that would be disputed or questionable
2 from a military point of view; correct?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- Mr. Stojanovic, could we make a clear
4 distinction between facts and legal analysis. I'd like to have a few
5 matters clarified. The portion you read to Mr. Boering was -- and part
6 of the answer of Mr. Boering was about UNMOs. Now, in your next question
7 you said:
8 "Let me finish with this question: Did you notice that some of
9 the UNPROFOR members were assisting with the selection ..."
10 Now, did you want to start a new topic, not about UNMOs any
11 further but about UNPROFOR, or was it that you wanted to give a follow-up
12 to the previous question and the previous answer which were about UNMOs?
13 Could you clearly explain what you -- what your question was in relation
14 to the previous questions?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The question
16 had to do with UNPROFOR members and I finished that with the question
17 about military observers. It was one military observer, you had the
18 occasion to hear him; and now I'm asking this gentleman about the
19 engagement of UNPROFOR members.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So it was -- you moved away again from UNMOs and you
21 returned to UNPROFOR members. Then for the next one you asked questions
22 about selection and triage of prisoners of war. I think it's important
23 to make a clear distinction between facts and law. So the first, I
24 think, appropriate question to Mr. Boering would be whether he considered
25 the men present there to be prisoners of war and on what factual basis he
Page 10082
1 thought they were or on what factual basis he thought they were not, and
2 then we can ask -- you can ask your further questions.
3 Mr. Boering, the men around, did you consider them to be
4 prisoners of war? And I'm more interested in the factual basis on which
5 you would rely, if forming an opinion about that question.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw several of the men in that
7 white house, where they were already locked up in the first stage. And
8 as I saw them, at that point they were certainly not fighters; they were
9 refugees who were trying to leave with the flow of refugees from the
10 enclave if that happened. I did not have the impression that these were
11 fighters. A combatant can be made a POW, but these were not soldiers in
12 my view. So I do not see them as POW status.
13 JUDGE ORIE: What I asked you before is to -- less about your
14 judgement on the matter but more about the facts on which you rely. So
15 if you say: I saw them, I did not consider them to be combatants or
16 fighters or -- therefore, they should not have been taken prisoner of
17 war, I would like to know what facts you observed which may have been
18 relevant for forming your opinion.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not armed. I saw that
20 the VRS soldiers were removing men from among the refugees and taking
21 them to that building. There was certainly no military action by the
22 people who were being taken away, so I do not regard them as soldiers.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You said they didn't carry any arms --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No arms.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- did they carry anything at all?
Page 10083
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the clothes that they were
2 wearing and that was all, ordinary civilian clothes. They were not
3 wearing military attire nor were they recognisable as pertaining to any
4 military group.
5 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber has seen pictures before showing
6 luggage. Did you see any of those men carrying any luggage?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sometimes refugees had some light
8 luggage. What you could take with you, you were carrying. And generally
9 they would contain clothes, food, and beverages.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
12 Q. Could it be expected that someone who was a soldier would throw
13 away his weapon and decide to join the civilians and in this way leave
14 the area where combat was going in a situation when there were so many
15 people?
16 A. There could be some among them, but, for example, the spokesman
17 of the refugees who I had found the -- on the night before and I know for
18 certain that he was not a military person who didn't want to carry a
19 weapon. So my response is: Yes, there could have been some among them
20 but that I didn't observe that. It didn't strike me as such.
21 Q. All right. And did you know that a man whom you knew as someone
22 whom you identified as a possible negotiator was a soldier and had been
23 wounded and that that was a reason why he was no longer militarily
24 engaged?
25 A. No, I didn't know that nor did I see that he was wounded.
Page 10084
1 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that at one point UNPROFOR members
2 began to compile a list of able-bodied men and, indeed, made such a list
3 of people they had registered?
4 A. I remember that they were working on a list of names, but I
5 thought that that list related more to the wounded but I was not involved
6 in that.
7 Q. Do you know on whose orders this registration or compilation of a
8 list was made.
9 A. This could have been Colonel Karremans or Major Franken. They
10 were working on a list and I think that that list concerned the wounded
11 in particular.
12 Q. Are you aware that at one point able-bodied men were prohibited
13 from entering the UNPROFOR facility?
14 A. I remember that it was said that we don't want any military or
15 men between age 16 and 60 in the facilities - I do remember that
16 generally - or wounded or women and children who needed assistance,
17 because the camp where we were there was relatively little space.
18 Q. In your answer during the debriefing which you have in front of
19 you, you say the following when asked whether it was true that your men
20 helped with selection: That this is a sensitive topic and that one of
21 our colleagues was even taken into custody because of this. Do you
22 remember that? Do you remember this fact? And does it refresh your
23 memory with regard to the activities of UNPROFOR on that day?
24 A. Well, this may sound strange, but I simply can't remember that
25 part.
Page 10085
1 Q. I suppose that you have the text of your answer in front of you.
2 It says - let me not mention any names:
3 "It's a sensitive subject. So sensitive, in fact, that one
4 colleague was detained," and then it's mentioned who detained him, "for
5 nearly a year. That's well-known, I think."
6 Is that something you don't remember today?
7 A. I truly can't remember that.
8 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to insist on that any further. I will
9 just ask you to look at another short video-clip --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, yesterday you indicated that you
11 needed another 15 minutes today. Well, you're now 45 minutes on your
12 way. Mr. Shin announced that he would need most likely 15 minutes. I
13 wonder whether we would be able to finish during this session because you
14 took half an hour more, three times the time you indicated you would
15 need.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your
17 understanding, Your Honour. If I may ask just one additional question,
18 one area.
19 Q. Sir, do you remember that at one point while you were in
20 Srebrenica, together with Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans you received the
21 invitation to attend a celebration organised by the authorities of the
22 enclave on which occasion a video-clip was played showing the Muslims
23 taking a few Serbs from a tank and cutting off their ears. Do you
24 remember that event?
25 A. Yes, I remember that we were invited to an activity because that
Page 10086
1 video was played in the middle of that event. In any case, somebody was
2 removed from a tank and was beaten and that was -- it was clearly
3 indicated at the meeting that that was sufficient that we didn't
4 appreciate that and didn't want to see it and certainly didn't appreciate
5 it and wanted to have no part of it.
6 Q. Did you see that as a provocation on part of the enclave
7 authorities?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Provoking who, Mr. Stojanovic. My question was:
9 Provoking who? A provocation against who? I'm asking you.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel and you, sir. That is
12 Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans. If they invite you to a celebration and
13 then show you such a video for which they say that it includes examples
14 of instances at which Serbs had their ears cut off, this is what you
15 said. You said that they played that to you for dessert.
16 A. Yes. It was at the end of a dinner, a celebration. But once
17 again, I did not see ears being cut off because at a certain point we
18 said: That's enough. We don't want to see any more. And I think we
19 left fairly soon after that as well.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me I
22 would finish with this question and I would just tender into evidence to
23 be MFI'd because of translation 65 ter 19416 which I used during my
24 examination of this witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin -- Mr. Mladic, would you please remain
Page 10087
1 seated.
2 Mr. Shin, any objections?
3 MR. SHIN: Just one moment, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you remind us what it was, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I proposed
6 that the document 65 ter 19416 be admitted into evidence and that it be
7 MFI'd at the moment because of translation issues.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the debriefing of the witness? Is that,
10 Mr. Stojanovic -- yes.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is in the -- in the Dutch version it's
13 77 pages. I think in the English version it is 50 pages or something
14 like that. I think it's a good habit in this courtroom that a party
15 seeks to tender those portions they dealt with during the examination of
16 the witness and that the other party can ask for context to add to that
17 in order to better understand the selection. Do you want to make further
18 selection or do you want to tender the whole of it? And is there any
19 specific reason then to?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I would then
21 tender into evidence specific pages that I referred to from this
22 document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that you make a selection, announce
24 in court which selection you have made, and perhaps already give notice
25 to Mr. Shin so that Mr. Shin can consider whether he wants to add for
Page 10088
1 context other portions as well, and that we then decide on it. I see
2 that you agree --
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- with that procedure.
5 Mr. Shin, we have five minutes left to the moment where we
6 usually take a break. You announced 15 minutes yesterday. Does that
7 still stand?
8 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, I expect actually to use somewhat less
9 than 15 minutes, but rather than break up the re-direct if it's suitable
10 to take a break now, we can do that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break now. Now, I hope that the fact
12 that we first take a break, just as we yesterday adjourned, will not lead
13 to taking three times the time as announced.
14 MR. SHIN: I can certainly undertake that will not happen,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That will not happen.
17 We'll take a break and we will resume at a quarter to 11.00, but
18 only after the witness has left the courtroom.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 10.45.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
24 Perhaps meanwhile, Mr. Stojanovic, does the objection against
25 admission of P1139 marked for identification still stand, that is the
Page 10089
1 transcript of the previous testimony?
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, considering
4 the suggestion. And if I may use this opportunity, we also identified
5 the pages and we are sending our list to the Prosecution to see if we can
6 agree on the pages that we would like to be admitted into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If Mr. Shin would have a look at it, and then
8 may I take it that it will be admitted in three languages: Original,
9 English, and B/C/S? Then we'll wait for -- meanwhile, Madam Registrar,
10 if I'm not mistaken the 92 ter transcript in this case was assigned
11 number P1139? And the associated exhibits to which Mr. Stojanovic
12 already -- said already that there was no objection against admission,
13 that was P1140 up to and including P1146. Therefore, P1139 up to and
14 including P1146 are admitted into evidence. At the same time, Mr. Shin,
15 I have to repeat what I said earlier that admission of this transcript
16 now does not mean that the Chamber will not use its discretion in the
17 future if not as an exception but -- I wouldn't say as a rule but too
18 frequently transcripts are sought to be admitted under Rule 92 ter. Let
19 that be a clear message.
20 Then, Mr. Shin, if you're ready to re-examine Mr. Boering, you
21 have an opportunity to do so.
22 MR. SHIN: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honours. And the
23 Prosecution did take the opportunity at the break to reduce the amount of
24 time anticipated for re-direct.
25 Re-examination by Mr. Shin:
Page 10090
1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Boering. During cross-examination yesterday,
2 counsel -- Defence counsel played a segment of a video of the first
3 Fontana meeting, and that was 65 ter 28780 from 43 minutes, 8 seconds, to
4 45 minutes and 15 seconds. I would like to play now -- and let me just
5 say that that portion related to Colonel Karremans describing a request
6 from UN BH command regarding withdrawing from the enclave. I'd like to
7 play the next 38 seconds following that very clip.
8 MR. SHIN: If we could please begin with 45 minutes and 15
9 seconds and play until 45 minutes and 53 seconds.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 "Karremans: There are some woman who are able to speak English.
12 And what I've heard from all those other soldiers who are now working
13 to -- let's say to ease the pain for the population, a lot of people, a
14 lot of persons, women, said: We are waiting for the buses. Can we leave
15 the enclave?
16 "Because they are sick, they are tired, they are very scared."
17 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be this -- perhaps the same audio
18 problem. Could we re-play it and have the volume for Mr. Mladic a bit
19 higher up.
20 And, Mr. Lukic, it would certainly assist if Mr. Mladic would use
21 the usual headphones because that gives less problems, but let's have the
22 volume turned up and let's play it again. No further comments, please.
23 Let's play it again.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 "Karremans: There are some women who are able to speak English.
Page 10091
1 And what I've heard from all those soldiers who are now working to --
2 let's say to ease the pain for the population, a lot of people, a lot of
3 persons, women, said: We are waiting for the buses. Can we leave the
4 enclave?
5 Because they are sick, they are tired, they are very scared."
6 MR. SHIN:
7 Q. Mr. Boering, my question to you: Now we've just heard
8 Colonel Karremans talk about the pain of the population and speak of
9 women who are asking to leave the enclave:
10 "Because they are sick, they are tired, they are very scared."
11 To your knowledge, is that accurate?
12 A. Yes, that's accurate. The situation was generally without any
13 prospects, and after several days of poorly eating and drinking and
14 little sleep, this group was basically exhausted.
15 MR. SHIN: No further questions, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Shin.
17 The questions in re-examination have not triggered any further
18 need to further examine the witness, Mr. Stojanovic, as I see, which
19 means --
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Which means, Mr. Boering, that this concludes your
22 testimony before this Chamber. I'd like to thank you very much for
23 coming to this court and for having answered all the questions that were
24 put to you by the parties and by the Bench. And I wish you a safe return
25 home again. You may follow the usher.
Page 10092
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we ask the witness to be escorted into the
5 courtroom, the Chamber would like to deliver a short oral decision on a
6 procedural matter.
7 The Chamber will deliver its decision on two Defence motions
8 requesting extensions of time to respond to Prosecution Rule 92 bis
9 motions. In the first motion filed on the 9th of April, 2013, the
10 Defence requests an additional 150 and 180 days respectively to respond
11 to the Prosecution's 22nd and 23rd Rule 92 bis motions, which were filed
12 on the 26th and the 27th of March, 2013. The Defence further requests
13 clarification of the legal effect of the Chamber's guidance with respect
14 to Rule 92 bis motions, submitting that the Prosecution's concurrent
15 filings of such motions is in contravention of the Chamber's guidance.
16 Finally, the Defence submits that the Chamber has neglected to give
17 specific dates for past dead-lines for responses to Rule 92 bis motions
18 and that oral rulings on requests for extensions have not clearly
19 specified what was granted, preventing the Defence from adequately
20 addressing all filings.
21 In the second motion, filed on the 16th of April of this year,
22 the Defence requests an additional 90 days to respond to the
23 Prosecution's 24th and 25th Rule 92 bis motions, both filed on the 3rd of
24 April. The Chamber recalls that its guidance pertaining to the filing of
25 Rule 92 bis motions specified that such motions should be filed at least
Page 10093
1 two to three weeks apart in order to give the other party sufficient time
2 to respond. This can be found on transcript page 108.
3 On the 28th of September of last year, the Prosecution made an
4 oral submission requesting an increased filing pace for certain
5 Rule 92 bis motions, with a view to completing such filings by the end of
6 February 2013. This is at transcript page 3311 and was further discussed
7 in court at transcript pages 3896 to 3899. The Prosecution expressed its
8 standing position that it would not object to any application by the
9 Defence seeking additional time to respond to these motions, if its
10 request were to be granted.
11 On the 12th of October, 2012, the Chamber granted the
12 Prosecution's request, thereby amending its original guidance, but making
13 clear that it would entertain Defence requests for extensions of time
14 with a view to ensuring adequate response time. This is at transcript
15 page 4057. As such, the Defence submission that the Prosecution has
16 violated the Chamber's guidance is misguided and the Chamber sees no need
17 to revisit its current practice. It notes, further, that since the
18 amendment of the original guidance, the Defence has filed several motions
19 requesting extensions of time to respond to incoming 92 bis motions, all
20 of which were granted, most of them fully and some in part.
21 Further, while the Chamber considers that all dead-lines for
22 pending Rule 92 bis motions have been clearly communicated to the
23 parties, either by e-mail and put on the record shortly thereafter or by
24 oral ruling directly in court, as it is apparent that the Defence
25 requires clarification in this regard, the Chamber will again put these
Page 10094
1 dead-lines for future responses due on the record. It will do it in
2 chronological order. The Chamber granted the Defence request for an
3 additional 60 days to respond to the Prosecution's 16th Rule 92 bis
4 motion, setting the response date to 29 April 2013. By granting an
5 additional 66 days to respond to the Prosecution's 18th Rule 92 bis
6 motion, the dead-line was set to the 13th of May, 2013.
7 Finally, on the 8th of April, 2013, the Chamber put on the record
8 its decision to extend the dead-lines for responses to the Prosecution's
9 20th and 21st Rule 92 bis motions with an additional 60 days, thereby
10 fully granting the Defence request and setting the response date to these
11 motions to the 27th of May, 2013, which can be found at transcript
12 page 9521.
13 Turning to the Defence requests for additional time to respond to
14 the Prosecution's 22nd and 23rd Rule 92 bis motions, the Chamber is not
15 inclined to grant the requested 150 and 180 days of extension
16 respectively, as it considered this a disproportionate amount of time.
17 Considering that the last Rule 92 bis related dead-line for the
18 Defence is currently the 27th of May, 2013, the Chamber hereby decides
19 that the Defence dead-line to respond to the Prosecution's 22nd
20 Rule 92 bis motion will be two weeks from that date, namely, the
21 10th of June, 2013; and for the 23rd Rule 92 bis motion, the dead-line
22 for a response hereby becomes the 24th of June, 2013.
23 Lastly, concerning the Defence requests for an extension of time
24 to respond to the Prosecution's 24th and 25th Rule 92 bis motions, the
25 Chamber grants the requested 90 days' extension in full, thereby setting
Page 10095
1 the dead-line for responses to these motions to the 16th of July, 2013.
2 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
3 Can the next Prosecution witness be escorted into the courtroom.
4 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, may I be excused, please?
5 JUDGE ORIE: You are excused, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we could save a little time if we
8 handed out this next exhibit to the Chamber. I know the Defence already
9 have it.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are invited to do so, Mr. McCloskey.
12 Thank you.
13 Good morning, Ms. Gallagher. This is the follow-up on your
14 examination-in-chief, so therefore it was only recently that you were
15 reminded that you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. That still
17 is the case. And I don't think we have to establish your identity
18 because that's been done already as well.
19 Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
20 WITNESS: ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]
21 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
22 Q. Good morning. As you know, we've asked you to come today to talk
23 about the -- what we all refer now as the trial video which is
24 65 ter 28780 and what we refer to as the stills book 65 ter 28781. And I
25 think you may have seen the Judges were just passed out the stills book.
Page 10096
1 First of all, can you briefly describe -- and bearing in mind that, as
2 you know, you've seen brief clips of the trial video played to the Court
3 already so they have some knowledge of it, but can you tell us what is
4 this trial video and what role did you play in its creation?
5 A. It's a compilation of many different video-clips about actually
6 25 different source videos that have been compiled into one trial video,
7 and it's really meant to document the events of Srebrenica as they were
8 happening at that time. So predominantly they focus its footage that
9 focuses from July 10th to about July 20th, 21st, but there is also some
10 other videos that are related to Srebrenica that are incorporated into
11 this trial video a little bit before and little bit after the Srebrenica
12 events.
13 My role has been both adding some portions of videos, at times
14 being a part of the process, sitting with the director or the editor,
15 choosing which clips to put in. I have also been a part of creating the
16 stills book which accompanies the video and have been a part of also
17 interviewing some of the people that are identified in the book and in
18 the video.
19 Q. Okay. We'll go through some questions as we do. Do you know
20 roughly how long this trial video is in its compilation?
21 A. It's over four and a half hours.
22 Q. And can you distinguish the material in the video from, say, the
23 material Mr. Ruez did pursuant to the investigation? Is the material in
24 this trial video specific to the particular time-frame?
25 A. It's meant to capture the events as they were happening at the
Page 10097
1 time. So it's not a later re-visit or a documentary going back to
2 Srebrenica in recent years; it is capturing the footage that existed by
3 TV, by those people that were on the ground videotaping it, of those
4 events mainly in July of 1995.
5 Q. All right. And we'll go over just a section in the table of
6 contents of a book to get an idea of that, but -- now when you said the
7 editing, can you tell us, is this an edited product? Is there any
8 material where the process did not edit out material but put in the
9 entire grouping of things we had? Can you tell the Court a little bit
10 about the editing or lack thereof as went into this four and a half hour
11 video?
12 A. Well, of course it is an edited trial video. There's a lot more
13 footage that exists out there than could possibly have gone into the
14 video. So there -- and there's a lot of repetitive or duplicative videos
15 out there that the ICTY has received so we're not going to put any
16 duplication in. The idea was to capture the most complete and
17 best-quality footage that existed, and sometimes, yes, there's footage
18 that has to be edited out because it -- it's too long, it's not relevant
19 to -- let's say to the case. Sometimes we or the film-maker has used
20 different clips to try and get the complete footage. Maybe one clip is
21 not complete and another clip is complete, but the incomplete clip is
22 better quality so a combination of the two would be used to have the most
23 complete and best-quality clip.
24 Q. When you say a "film-maker," who are you referring to and what
25 was that job?
Page 10098
1 A. There was somebody that was hired in 2002 to come in and actually
2 make this video, Marta Fracassetti came at the time and was the one that
3 put together this trial -- this original trial video, not this current
4 one that we'll be seeing today but the original one, along with the
5 Srebrenica trial team. So together they were able to put together this
6 trial video.
7 Q. Now, we'll notice when we see the video that it will go suddenly
8 from a certain quality of picture to another quality of picture and
9 sometimes with even a different logo as it continues. Can you explain
10 why that is?
11 A. It's actually what I was just trying to say a moment ago, where
12 you might have incomplete footage that's, let's say, from -- for example,
13 from the BBC that's very good quality and then there's other complete
14 footage, more footage, that comes from the local Srpska Radio Television
15 network as an example. And we want to make sure that the entire
16 interview or the entire story is captured. So I know, for example, Marta
17 had used the incomplete and then added the complete footage which was not
18 as good a quality. And you'll see sometimes where it switches back and
19 forth but it's just to make it the most complete and full clip.
20 Q. Okay, now let's go to 65 ter 28781, the -- what we call the
21 stills book which the Court has in front of them and we can see it's
22 entitled: "Trial video Srebrenica." But let's go to page 3 in e-court
23 which is basically the first page of a table of contents. And can you
24 just explain to us how this begins to show us how the trial video and the
25 stills book is organised? Can you just explain this briefly to us so we
Page 10099
1 can understand the organisation a bit better?
2 A. Both the trial video and the stills book lays out the footage
3 chronologically so that the book parallels the trial video, and the trial
4 video is split up into chapters. And you'll see there's 38 chapters.
5 And it notes the different clips that were used in each chapter. So
6 you'll see the source, where the video -- original video footage came
7 from, when the ICTY acquired it, and then a little bit about the footage
8 itself that's in the trial video.
9 Q. All right. And did you take part in producing this table of
10 contents?
11 A. Yes. I've put most of it together but it's also been the work of
12 other people. It originated when Marta made the first original video, so
13 that was the core of it. And I've added to it. We had a criminal
14 analyst who also had worked on the video and one of our attorneys also
15 has played a substantial role in putting this together.
16 Q. And what's the basic purpose of the stills book?
17 A. It's just -- it's to highlight some of the parts of the video
18 that we want to point out. There are key individuals that are in the
19 trial video that we've captured stills of. So we wanted to highlight
20 those and how -- who they are and how they were identified as well as
21 locations. So it's just to help guide the video as you're watching the
22 video to know who the people are, where they are, what is the context of
23 what you're seeing on the video.
24 Q. All right. Is it meant to ideally be flipped through as one
25 watches the video to help identify who some of these folks are?
Page 10100
1 A. Yes, exactly.
2 Q. And did you play a role in any of those identifications?
3 A. I have. I have identified a number of the people that are in the
4 trial video, and you'll see when I have identified them it's noted in the
5 stills book.
6 Q. And it is -- it's not our intention or my intention today to go
7 through each of those identifications certainly, but can you give us an
8 example of how you would have identified some of the people from the
9 video? For example, Vinko Pandurevic.
10 A. Well, he was one of the defendants in the Popovic trial so I
11 spent a few years seeing him in court and seeing that he testified and he
12 identified himself in the trial video and of course know who he was
13 through the course of the investigation as well.
14 Q. Any other examples of how you would have been able to identify
15 folks besides the accused in the -- well, I won't call them accused but
16 the people in the former trials?
17 A. Also from -- well, I've interviewed a number of the people that
18 are in the video and identified them from my own personal interviews with
19 them or speaking with others who had identified them, looking -- yeah,
20 it's mainly been through my own personal identification or sometimes it
21 may be other -- through other sources, open sources, or other people who
22 have assisted me in identifying who the person is.
23 Q. Would that -- when you say "other people" assisting you, could it
24 be a person -- well, a Muslim witness? A VRS person? Or a MUP person
25 that you've interviewed that would have identified someone in the video?
Page 10101
1 Would that also be included as part of the sources for this
2 identification?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And are also some of the other sources of the identification
5 other investigators from the OTP that have made the identifications?
6 A. That's correct. And you'll see those noted also in the book when
7 it's been another investigator that made the identification.
8 Q. Okay. And where in the book does it note the source of the
9 identification?
10 A. Once you get past the table of contents you'll see the book is
11 made up of individual photographs with a description under each
12 photograph, and it's there you'll see who has made the identification and
13 by what means or how and when.
14 Q. All right. And we'll also see in the book that there's -- should
15 be four DVDs attached in the back in little -- what are those four DVDs?
16 A. Those are the DVDs that make up the trial video. They didn't all
17 fit onto one CD or DVD so they're broken up into four. And you'll see
18 that the table of contents reflects what's on each DVD.
19 Q. All right. And let's begin to go through some of the book to
20 give the Trial Chamber and everyone an idea of what this is about, and
21 then we'll - with leave of the Court - actually play some of the trial
22 video. So let's go to page 13 in e-court in the book which is page 1 in
23 the book itself. Now, we see here that this is just the title of this
24 particular chapter and we see 10 or 11. How do you explain the "10 or 11
25 July 1995"?
Page 10102
1 A. The footage we received -- well, it didn't say which date it was.
2 We can -- we can assume from the context that it was either the 10th or
3 the 11th of July as the VRS were approaching were Srebrenica. Sometimes
4 we can't tell if it's, you know, footage from the afternoon of the 10th
5 or the morning of the 11th. So just out of cautiousness and not wanting
6 to overstep our certainty, we have let you know that it's one of these
7 two days and we're not a hundred per cent sure.
8 Q. And we also see here "Antelope" and then "WTN - Reuters" and
9 "SRT." Can you tell us -- I think we've all heard of Reuters but can you
10 tell us what these other things are basically?
11 A. Right this is a -- this page is a chapter break and this is the
12 first chapter. So each chapter will look like this. It's the title of
13 the chapter, the date, and then the footage, the source footage that we
14 got the videos from and that are incorporated in this chapter. So, for
15 example, Antelope is a production company that made a film called: "A
16 cry from the grave." And they had source material that we obtained from
17 them. WTN, World Television Network, and Reuters is more of a news
18 agency clearing house that buys and sells news footage. And then the SRT
19 footage is the Srpska Radio Television footage, the local television
20 journalists that were also out in the field at the time in July.
21 Q. As far as you know, did the Srebrenica investigation know
22 precisely where Antelope productions got this footage?
23 A. They gave the OTP a list of the source materials that they had
24 used in making "A cry from the grave." So we have seen what they used
25 and so, yes, we do know the footage that they used. Sometimes we might
Page 10103
1 not know -- always know the details. It might say it's a Muslim civilian
2 they got it from and we might not know the name. They won't -- have not
3 described the name of the Muslim civilian, but basically we know how and
4 where they got it.
5 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page of the stills book. It's
6 page 4 in e-court.
7 Page 14, I'm sorry. If we could blow that up a bit. All right.
8 And is this where the video starts here?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And we see here that it's been identified as a
11 Zvornik Brigade Praga and with a registration number vehicle log Zvornik
12 Brigade with this conclusion that it belonged to the Zvornik Brigade.
13 Can you tell us where this information was gathered? On this still we
14 really can't make out much in the way of licence plates or registration
15 of the -- of this first machine coming at us.
16 A. On our own video equipment we're able to blow it up and see it
17 much more clearly so it's -- there's no doubt the registration number is
18 11067. We were able, and the team prior to my arrival, was able to
19 obtain vehicle logs from the Zvornik Brigade during a search and seizure
20 in 1998, and of these original vehicle logs there is a log for a Praga as
21 part of the Zvornik Brigade with that registration number.
22 Q. All right. And can you point out to us where the number is on
23 this particular still, the registration number, if you can make it out
24 just so we know - I don't think we can read it very well - but so they
25 know where this is coming from?
Page 10104
1 A. As you're looking at the front it's just above the left tire, so
2 to the left side of the little bike that's hanging there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, "left" meaning from viewing it from this which
4 would normally be considered to be the right front tire?
5 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. Thank you. All right. Let's look at just one more example like
8 this on the next page, 15. We see here a tank also registration number
9 6717, again from the Zvornik Brigade. How did we sort this out?
10 A. The same way as the prior Praga. It's from the Zvornik Brigade
11 search and seizure of original documents. There was a vehicle log that
12 had this tank with this registration number, the 6717, noted on it.
13 Q. And on this photo can you actually see the registration number?
14 A. I think you see it better above the tank, gunner aimer's head
15 there on the right side.
16 Q. All right.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, Your Honour, Mr. President, I -- the
18 suggestion now would be to play some portions of this trial video that
19 we've chosen and occasionally I might ask or anyone could ask
20 Ms. Gallagher about that, but this is important video that we would like
21 the Court and the world to see. We have picked out potentially up to one
22 hour and five minutes of video for your viewing, most of which -- in
23 fact, the vast majority of which you have not yet seen. I do not intend
24 to play Hotel Fontana and other parts of the trial video that you have
25 already seen. And so in that event we would start the playing of it with
Page 10105
1 a few questions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, when you're saying one hour and five
3 minutes, which would mean that with questions it would take far more
4 time, thus not just looking at it continuously? What portions do you
5 have in mind to play? Five minutes or ten minutes or two minutes before
6 you stop and either ask questions or ... ?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: There won't be very many questions and we have
8 divided up the times and given brief titles of the segments we intend to
9 play on the sheet that we hope all have received and --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have received ...
11 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: The latest update is in our e-mail. Let me just
13 check whether I have got it in front of me.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I can assist you by just briefly going over
15 it as you requested. The first segment which is about five -- four and a
16 half, five minutes is the shots of the VRS approaching the Srebrenica
17 along the road. You can see the stills. And that will include some news
18 footage from the RS of the similar things.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have -- I have on my screen at this moment a
20 list which is dated -- it's one page. It gives a list of parts of 28780
21 and I find a date at the right bottom side, 19th of April, 2013, and
22 apart from the list it also has a short chapter prior testimony.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and I can just --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I just wanted to verify whether we have in front of
25 us what you refer to?
Page 10106
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that's it, yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, Mr. McCloskey suggests that we look at
3 those portions. Have you considered -- I mean, do we have to play it
4 twice if you want to put questions or would that be a possibility --
5 Mr. McCloskey, I'm looking at you as well, that if Mr. Ivetic would have
6 a specific question whether he could ask for it to be stopped so that we
7 avoid that we have to go through it twice.
8 Mr. Ivetic, is that something that would be agreeable to you or
9 would you suggest another way of proceeding?
10 MR. IVETIC: I think, Your Honour, at least with the prior
11 witnesses that have dealt with this video that we have always played it
12 once and then --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. IVETIC: -- in cross-examination we'll refer to the actual
15 time in the transcript when they were talking about a particular video
16 segment. I don't know whether we've actually played anything repeatedly
17 in cross, but that's not my intention to repeat any video in cross.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine if there are specific questions
19 about a specific portion that we would have to look at it again and that
20 you select the portions so that we don't have to play the whole of the
21 video again.
22 Then, in the absence of any objections, we'll proceed as you
23 suggest, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. And I -- I have no
25 objection if something comes up that Mr. Ivetic thinks he can deal with
Page 10107
1 at -- during the direct that he interrupts, that's no problem. And of
2 course Ms. Stewart would also on cross take us all back to exactly where
3 Mr. Ivetic wants to go.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: As you can see as she has done with
6 Mr. Stojanovic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I see Mr. Ivetic nodding, yes. He agrees
8 apparently.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
11 Q. Let's -- I think this particular chapter's fairly
12 self-explanatory so let's just play it where we identify on the sheet,
13 00.29.0.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would just add that you can try to keep up
16 with the book if possible because it's designed ideally to go along with
17 it, but not critical I don't think at this stage. Thank you.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Stopping at 1.50.2.
20 Q. The man with the red hair, the book identifies it, was that one
21 of the people you were able to identify?
22 A. Yes. We just spoke of him, Vinko Pandurevic, the commander of
23 the Zvornik Brigade.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Please continue.
Page 10108
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Here we are at 1.57.9.
3 Q. The book identifies the person but can you tell us who this is?
4 A. This is Milan Jolovic with the nickname Legenda. He is the
5 commander of the Drina Wolves who is -- who are part of Zvornik Brigade
6 under the Drina Corps, and he is also, as you see, on the road
7 co-ordinating with his units.
8 Q. And that's this blurry red markings up in the top -- well, above
9 Legenda's head?
10 A. That's the logo for Srpska Radio Television in it looks like --
11 well, CPT, it's SRT, and some of the footage we had received from the
12 Srpska Radio Television network directly and they had been broadcasting
13 it so you will see throughout the entire trial video this logo and you
14 know directly that that comes from Srpska Radio Television.
15 Q. Now, this could be any military operation or anything. What do
16 you believe that this is having to do with from what he's talking about
17 and where he is?
18 A. Right it's along the southern approach to Srebrenica from
19 Zeleni Jadar. Both -- we know that from the placement of the tanks and
20 the Pragas that were noted in the vehicle records. We know that from
21 people that have testified, including Vinko Pandurevic, as to roughly
22 where they are along the road.
23 Q. All right. Let's continue.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and this is where we designed to stop at
Page 10109
1 4.57.8. And I believe it's a good time to take a break.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it is a good time to take a break.
3 We'll take a break and we'll first invite Ms. Gallagher to follow the
4 usher.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE ORIE: And we will resume at five minutes past 12.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 11.45 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.08 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll continue, Ms. Gallagher.
12 Mr. McCloskey. Please proceed.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. Now -- and we don't need this on the screen but we left off --
15 we're now at the chapter entitled: "Srebrenica town 10 July Muslim
16 civilian footage," but the Chamber has seen some of that already
17 including the Muslim mortar squad and -- so let's skip ahead from page 6
18 in the book to page 13 in the book and the video will -- but before we
19 get to the video we see that in the book it's called: "Gathering of
20 Bosnian Muslim men and boys, the location on the road from Srebrenica to
21 Susnjar 11 July." Can you -- and that's page 25 in e-court, though we
22 don't need to bring it up. We'll soon see the video. That's just for
23 the record.
24 Can you tell us the source of this video we're about to see?
25 A. This comes from a Bosnian Muslim man who was living in Srebrenica
Page 10110
1 who was videotaping the gathering and leaving of men and women in
2 Srebrenica, and I have read his -- he had given a statement to the OTP in
3 2002. I have read his statement where he describes the video footage he
4 took.
5 Q. And do we know precisely where this is or generally?
6 A. He states in his -- in his statement that it is the exit of
7 Srebrenica and the video footage continues as he's moving along towards
8 Susnjari. It ends several hours later after you see the time-stamp here
9 where he says they are near Susnjari.
10 Q. Okay. But the clip we've chosen for the trial video is pretty --
11 pretty short; is that right?
12 A. That's correct. It's not the entire -- it's not the entire
13 video-clip that he -- and not the entire footage he took.
14 Q. And when -- have you looked at this and seen any weapons among --
15 counted or made any effort to count weapons as you looked at this?
16 A. I haven't made any effort to count weapons, but I've noticed the
17 men, some boys, occasionally some women that are amongst the group. I
18 believe that you see a couple weapons but most of them don't appear to be
19 armed at all.
20 Q. All right. Let's play that. It should be 14.13.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. I won't ask you to identify who that was. All right. That's a
24 short clip ending at 15.07.4, and the next chapters in the book are parts
25 that we've already seen of General Mladic and some of his command going
Page 10111
1 down the road towards Srebrenica. So let's go to 21.09 which we call:
2 "Mladic in Srebrenica." Now, was there any effort to try to put in all
3 the Mladic footage of Mladic in Srebrenica as opposed to editing it out?
4 A. No, that's correct. Everything that the OTP has regarding Mladic
5 and Srebrenica is included in this trial video. There's nothing that has
6 been left out.
7 Q. All right. So I think we should just play it and follow along as
8 best we can in the book.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. Okay. I see we've started there, and I now recall why. This --
12 and we're at 21.11.5. This person that's holding this helmet in their
13 left hand, I think we'll recall, was this blue helmet that Mr. Ruez spoke
14 about. And has the investigation come up with an identification of this
15 man?
16 A. Yes, actually. Drazen Erdemovic had identified him in the
17 testimony in Tolimir that this was a man from the 10th Sabotage which is
18 the same unit Drazen Erdemovic was with and his name is Cico.
19 Q. Do you have his full name or no ?
20 A. No, Drazen Erdemovic only mentioned his nickname.
21 Q. All right. Let's continue then.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Here we are 25.11.1.
24 Q. We can hear General Mladic calling out to Zile and Krle. Can you
25 tell us, had those names been identified as nicknames for anyone?
Page 10112
1 A. Yes. Zile and Milenko Zivanovic the commander of the Drina Corps
2 at that time, and Krle is General Krstic, the Chief of Staff of the
3 Drina Corps at that time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And the identification was based on ... ?
5 THE WITNESS: You'll actually see them appear into the screen in
6 just a moment, but over the course of the investigation, over seeing
7 other videos, intercepts, I've also known their names -- their nicknames
8 through other means as well.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: So we continue on at 25.11.1, where we stopped.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. And can you identify the smiling person on the screen now at
13 25.43.6?
14 A. And that's Milenko Zivanovic who you heard referred to as Zile.
15 Q. I won't spend the time to go back, but did you see Krstic a bit
16 before that in the film?
17 A. I believe so. I know he's walking along there with them.
18 Q. Yeah, let's just briefly go back. Sometimes these faces get too
19 familiar for us and I forget. We're at 25.23.7. Do you see
20 General Krstic anywhere on that film?
21 A. Yes, he's the one who's the furthest to the left as we're looking
22 at the screen.
23 Q. All right. And Drazen Erdemovic identified any of those guys in
24 black that are standing next to him?
25 A. Yes, the two men in black, the one that had put the flag in the
Page 10113
1 pile of wood there, those are two men from the 10th Sabotage that are in
2 the unit with him.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. And they're identified in the stills book that you have.
5 Q. Okay. Then if we could continue. Thank you.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. We've stopped it at 28.54.2. And
8 this is actually e-court page 36 but page 24 in the book to catch up.
9 Q. Do you recall who this person that's shaking hands with
10 General Mladic is?
11 A. That's Mirko Trivic. He's the commander of the
12 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade.
13 Q. And is did he testify and help with some of the IDs of some of
14 the people we see in this portion of the video?
15 A. That's correct. He identifies himself and several of the others
16 in the scene.
17 Q. All right. Then let's continue.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: We've stopped at 30.51.9.
20 Q. From this video do you know who the two people are? We're at
21 page -- it's actually page 28 in the book, 38 in e-court.
22 A. Well, to the right that's still Milenko Zivanovic. To the left
23 side that is Vujadin Popovic, chief of security for the Drina Corps.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I find that on page 26 in the book.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was just corrected, yes, 26. Thank you,
Page 10114
1 Mr. President. All right. Let's continue there.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Can you just remind us who these -- well, we see General Mladic's
5 back to us now and to the -- we're at 31.29.8. Can you remind us who
6 these other three people are and describe where you see them?
7 A. To the far left, that's General Krstic. In the middle with the
8 moustache and T-shirt, once again that's Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic. And
9 the one who has his arm up in the air is Vinko Pandurevic.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's continue.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: We've stopped at 32.48.8. This is page 29 in the
14 book, 41 in e-court.
15 Q. But can you identify the person in the far right of the screen
16 who's behind General Mladic?
17 A. That's Milorad Pelemis. He is the commander of the 10th Sabotage
18 in which Drazen Erdemovic is part of.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's continue.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. The chronology goes into the evening
23 of 11 July and the Hotel Fontana which I think I will skip. And if we
24 could go now and beginning the chapter 12 July, it's page 40 in the book,
25 52 in e-court, but it's noted at V0009266 from 1700 to 01.19.
Page 10115
1 JUDGE ORIE: And --
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. McCloskey, the last portion we saw there was
4 apparently an instruction to unscrew something and take it off. I don't
5 know whether that's anything special. I did not have the time to really
6 look at it.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we can certainly -- as
8 Ms. Gallagher may have --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gallagher, is there anything -- I saw that
10 unscrew something which was on the wall --
11 THE WITNESS: I think it was the sign for the Srebrenica
12 municipal building.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course what I wondered whether that is
14 similar to the one we saw on that table in Hotel Fontana. That's -- have
15 you further analysed that in any way or ... ?
16 THE WITNESS: No, I've wondered the same thing but I actually
17 don't know if it's the same one or not.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, at least we have a picture now of what we
19 see.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
22 Q. So if we start at that point and -- first of all, can you just --
23 tell us -- this is dated 12 July and what are we about to see, just
24 basically?
25 A. It's a very quick clip of Srebrenica on July 12th and initially
Page 10116
1 you're going to see a dead body with a lot of blood coming out from it
2 from under him.
3 Q. And what significance, if any, is that to the investigation?
4 A. Drazen Erdemovic had described being in Srebrenica on July 12th
5 in this area next to the mosque and that a member of his unit, of the
6 10th Sabotage, was ordered by Milorad Pelemis who you saw on the earlier
7 clip, to cut the throat of a Muslim man. And that person did cut his
8 throat and Drazen Erdemovic identifies him in a proofing and in testimony
9 in Tolimir that he believes this is the man who was killed when he was
10 there.
11 Q. Now, you said that Erdemovic was in Srebrenica town on 12 July;
12 is that correct? Or is --
13 A. Excuse me, sorry. They were there on the 11th. The -- this clip
14 is from July 12th, so it's the next day.
15 Q. All right. Let's play this clip then at 17.9.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: We just ended at 19.3. Now let's go ahead
18 somewhat through the chronology past the Hotel Fontana meetings and past
19 some of the scenes in Potocari which some of -- which the Trial Chamber
20 has seen before and go to a section. It's page 73 of the book which is
21 85 in e-court, and this is what we've entitled: "A Zivanovic speech at
22 St. Peter's and Paul's patron day in Vlasenica."
23 Q. Can you just give us the briefest of backgrounds about what we're
24 about to see -- not the speech itself, but where is this and what is it?
25 A. Right. It's a celebration of St. Peter and Paul's day in
Page 10117
1 Vlasenica. It's held at a particular person's house who you see there
2 actually in the clip standing. Zvonko Bajagic is his name. He lives in
3 Vlasenica. And in a moment you'll see Milenko Zivanovic give a speech, a
4 fairly lengthy speech --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Again what page are we in the book, Mr. --
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: [Microphone not activated]
7 MR. IVETIC: 74, I think, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: 74, thank you.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: [Microphone not activated]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: [Microphone not activated]
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the -- -
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: On the video we are at 32.29.0, and we have just
14 watched the basics of the speech.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go back a little bit to this man here
17 who just smiled briefly.
18 Q. Do you know -- we're now at 38.41.8. Do you know what position
19 this man held and can you tell from the video?
20 A. He was a bishop of Zvornik and Tuzla.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. If I can -- yes, just verify it is in the stills book.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's continue.
25 [Video-clip played]
Page 10118
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we stop it for a second? Mr. McCloskey, the
2 Chamber is puzzled by the relevance of looking at a long speech. I can
3 imagine that there are one or two portions that we saw until now which
4 are of some relevance about what to do with the mosque but ...
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I know hearing it like this you don't always
6 catch everything, but sprinkled throughout it are things like the -- with
7 the permission of the commander we set up forward command posts as we
8 went towards the attack. And the talk about the -- destroying the
9 minaret and the mosques --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I noticed that that may be -- but, okay, please
11 proceed. We wondered whether another selection could have been made but
12 if it's still ahead then I'll take it it will come to the surface in
13 relative -- for the Chamber.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, we are getting to something
15 you will recognise and it was one of these decisions where I felt like
16 the context and some of what he's saying may be something the Defence
17 would want me to put into context so we decided -- and I understand that
18 it's a long -- but we just made that decision. We are very conscious of
19 trying to make this as targeted as possible.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. And, Ms. Gallagher, do you know if that last reference to
24 St. Peter's and Paul's, did that help you date this at all, do you
25 recall?
Page 10119
1 A. Well, St. Peter and Paul's day is on July 12th.
2 Q. Thank you. All right. Let's go now to -- we're still on 12 July
3 but I'd like to go to a chapter. It's page 85 in the book which is 97 in
4 e-court. And at 53110, this is something -- sorry, 53.13.0, something
5 which is called "Luke." And can you just give us a bit of the
6 background. What is the significance of Luke? What are we about to see
7 very briefly?
8 A. It's the women and children and elderly that have been taken from
9 Potocari on the buses and brought to Luke, and from there they're dropped
10 off and they will walk to Kladanj, to the free territory as they refer to
11 it.
12 Q. And was there any evidence in the investigation indicating any
13 separating of men at Luke?
14 A. Yes, we know that there were men that were separated there. We
15 have a survivor of an execution who describes being taken off a bus and
16 later this group is executed; he, however, survives it.
17 Q. All right. Well, let's start this short section.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. We've now stopped at Luke now and
20 we're at a section called Luke-Kladanj road 12 July.
21 Q. And how is this related to the last clip we saw where we saw
22 people getting off?
23 A. Right. This is a continuation of that same footage. Now they're
24 walking along the road towards Kladanj.
25 Q. And is this a location that is spoken to in the investigation,
Page 10120
1 from now, of Colonel Boering?
2 A. Yes, I believe so. I didn't get to hear his testimony these last
3 couple days, but I know in the past he's referred to Luke and Kladanj
4 road.
5 Q. Okay. Let's play it here at 54.27.9. And this is at the book
6 page 87 and 99 in e-court.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could ... we now have -- are at 55.36.4.
9 Q. We've obviously gotten a different quality video. Can you tell
10 us roughly what this is of, where this is roughly?
11 A. It's also in the same location, obviously the people have -- are
12 still walking towards Kladanj, and in this particular scene you see
13 Colonel Boering from UNPROFOR, from DutchBat in this shot.
14 Q. Where?
15 A. I'm sorry, he is the person to the left of the screen in the
16 camouflage.
17 Q. The far left as we look at it?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: We've stopped at 55.48.6.
22 Q. Can you tell us where we are now?
23 A. I believe that there -- you're getting closer to Kladanj. You're
24 seeing more people, and I think shortly you are going to see ABiH
25 soldiers.
Page 10121
1 Q. Thank you.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. There's a section of these people at
4 the Tuzla air base which I will skip at this point and go on to 13 July
5 in a segment that begins on page 106 in e-court and page 94 of the book.
6 But I think it's about break time, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: It is break time.
8 Ms. Gallagher, would you please follow the usher. We would like
9 to see you back in about 20 minutes.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break and we'll resume at 25 minutes
12 past 1.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 1.05 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 1.29 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
16 Could I meanwhile inquire what the plans are as far as the
17 continuation of the testimony of this witness is concerned? Do you want
18 to continue on Monday or ... ?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would discuss with the Defence if they have a
20 lengthy cross and -- because I believe this witness is fairly flexible
21 and we do have another, as you know, Dutch officer.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I know that. But of course at the same time we
23 don't want it to be split up into a hundred little pieces.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely.
Page 10122
1 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could briefly deal with it at the end of
2 today's session.
3 Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Now, let's -- we are still with the trial video 28780. Let's go
6 to a 13 July segment that we've -- basically is called: "Mladic in
7 Srebrenica." It's from V0009267 from 06 to 0239.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: We've now stopped at 02.30.5, and for reference
10 this is page 95 of the book which is 107 in e-court.
11 Q. And this man in the far left whose face is partially obscured in
12 the still, has that person been identified in the investigation?
13 A. Yes, he actually identified himself. It is Petar Salapura who is
14 chief of intelligence administration for the Main Staff.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can continue.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we've ended at 02.39.7. And I will skip some
19 of Potocari, I think the Court has seen some of that, and I would like to
20 go to V0009268. It is a clip that the investigation has dated
21 13 June 1996 and it is -- was a relatively long speech of General Mladic.
22 Q. We have skipped down to the relevant part near the end of the
23 talk. And can you, Ms. Gallagher, just put us in a little bit of
24 context, June 1996, where is this, and any significant individuals that
25 are with Mladic around the table.
Page 10123
1 JUDGE ORIE: What page are we in the book?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's -- gets to page 174 in the book,
3 Mr. President, which is 186 in e-court.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could -- let's start with putting that
6 up on the screen so Ms. Gallagher can put us in context, so that would be
7 page 186 in e-court. Oh, brilliant.
8 Q. And so could you just put this in a little context. Where is
9 this? Who are these people?
10 A. Right. You don't -- this is a small clip of a much longer -- of
11 much longer original footage but he and the Main Staff -- commanders of
12 the Main Staff have been travelling in the Zepa area and he's been
13 pointing out some of the historical and important places during the war.
14 And now they're having a picnic and he's -- well, he's giving a speech.
15 And you asked about who we can also see. You see in this photo number 2,
16 that's Colonel Beara who is chief of security for the Main Staff.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And he's identified how? Because that's not
18 mentioned.
19 THE WITNESS: I can certainly identify him myself. He was one of
20 our defendants in the Popovic trial.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. We can all see that this is a very blurry still. Were you able
23 to get a better look as you see the whole video?
24 A. Yes, you'll see more of that side of the table and you will
25 see -- if I can point out another photograph that you asked for other
Page 10124
1 members that were there that we can also identify.
2 Q. Well, I have got this down to its bare bones which I think is --
3 will be fine --
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. -- so let's just see what we can see from the video. But I think
6 we'll all remember you mentioning when we had the document which is
7 P01087, e-court page 23, from the Srebrenica court binder which was a map
8 that was signed off on by General Mladic and had what you called a cross
9 on it. And you -- we may recall that you'd said you'd seen a video about
10 this. Is this the video we're about to see that you talked about?
11 A. Yes, this is the video that I referred to.
12 Q. All right.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that was e-court page 24, excuse me. And I
14 think we can play this segment of the speech.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we start at 31.59.5.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. It ended 32.47.9, with the statement
19 we see on the screen.
20 Your Honour, with your leave I have one more chapter and I know
21 Your Honour is very familiar with this. It's a Srebrenica-related film.
22 We've called it the Skorpion video, and we see that it goes on for a few
23 minutes. It would be the last video I would play today.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And this is from V009267, roughly 010615 to
Page 10125
1 012612. We're starting at 01.07.13.9.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're ending at 01.26.12.6 and could we in the
4 stills book which is 28781 go to e-court page 168.
5 Q. And as we're waiting for that to come up, is it true that the
6 individuals we see shot on this video are Safet Fejzic, Sidik Salkic,
7 Azmir Alispahic, Smajil Ibrahimovic, Dino Salihovic, and Juso Delic?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And I will ask others about this unit and about this location,
10 but can you confirm that these six people were reported missing from
11 Srebrenica, to the fall of Srebrenica, July 11th, 1995?
12 A. That's true, they were young men from Srebrenica.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd ask for 168 to come up.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Page 168 in e-court.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: In e-court, yes. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: There we are.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. So these are the people that you've just confirmed, is that
19 right, and this is the page and this information is correct?
20 A. That's correct. It's all correct.
21 Q. Thank you, Ms. Gallagher.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I am finished. I would like to
23 offer 28780 into evidence and 28781 and the trial video has with it the
24 full transcript of the video.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
Page 10126
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, no objection to the video. My only
2 concern is the stills book does not have B/C/S for the table of contents
3 which I think would be the only substantive part that may not able to be
4 followed by our client. So in that sense I would ask for it to be marked
5 for identification until at least the table of contents is translated so
6 that it can be followed by our client in the language he understands.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, the table of contents is without
8 translation.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have that and I have
10 somehow misplaced in providing it to the Defence. So we will get that to
11 them of course.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then it will be MFI'd. First the --
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, first the video 28780, if I'm not
15 mistaken.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour. Receives number
17 P1147, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Then the book to be
19 marked for identification, the trial video book.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28781 receives number P1148,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
23 Mr. Ivetic, apparently the examination-in-chief has been
24 concluded on this subject matter. How much time would you need for
25 cross-examination?
Page 10127
1 MR. IVETIC: I don't anticipate needing more than 30, 40 minutes,
2 perhaps closer to 30 than to 40.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Today we have ten minutes left.
4 Mr. McCloskey, and -- could you -- would we start in finalising
5 the cross-examination Monday or ... ?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Our next witness is fine,
7 I'm sure, and --
8 JUDGE ORIE: I say "Monday," but you should say Tuesday.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Tuesday.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Of course we are not sitting on Monday.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, being able to start within an hour of the
12 scheduled time is very good. So he will be ready to go.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Ivetic, then you could start your
14 cross-examination now and then we'll -- in ten minutes we'll adjourn and
15 you could then continue Tuesday morning.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gallagher, you'll now be cross-examined by
18 Mr. Ivetic. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Mladic Defence team.
19 Mr. Mladic is asking for a brief consultation -- well, if it can
20 be done quickly then--
21 MR. IVETIC: I'll try, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And no loud speaking.
23 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: No loud speaking, I said several times.
25 Mr. Ivetic.
Page 10128
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. With your leave I can
2 begin?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
5 Q. Ms. Gallagher, hello again.
6 A. Hello.
7 Q. I want to just remind you before we begin that since we're both
8 speaking English we have to try to observe a pause between question and
9 answer to allow the translation to catch up with us. Is that okay?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Then let's begin. One thing that you touched on in direct
12 examination but which was not entirely clear to me was with respect to
13 this stills book that we've been dealing with relating to Srebrenica.
14 What precisely was your role? I see throughout here there are a couple
15 of persons that were identified by you, but what -- beyond that what
16 specifically was your role in generating the Srebrenica stills booklet?
17 A. In terms of the book instead of the video, it was at times
18 selecting some of the photographs, also being part of capturing them,
19 filling in the information as to the location, the source of the video
20 that you see and the text, putting -- adding more to the table of
21 contents, and checking some of that information as to the sites. And I
22 also looked at the raw footage of almost every clip and just verified as
23 well the identifications and that the -- the information that you see in
24 terms of the text, the location, the source and all of that was correct.
25 Q. Thank you. And now would you say that you are the person at the
Page 10129
1 Office of the Prosecutor that was the most significantly involved in the
2 creation of this particular Srebrenica stills booklet?
3 A. It's actually a difficult question in a way because the book was
4 initially created prior to me. So the core of it existed before me and I
5 have, along with several other people, added to it over the years. I'm
6 certainly one of a number of substantial people, not the only one.
7 Q. Are you in a position to identify for us what parts of this book
8 were changed or modified that you added to the existing book that may
9 have been used in other cases?
10 A. Sure. Everything that came in certainly after -- well, let's put
11 it -- anything that we as the OTP acquired footage-wise after 2002 is
12 something that's been added. Certainly footage that's been received
13 in -- since 2006 I would have played a role in in adding to the video and
14 to the book, such as some of the Zepa footage, some of the footage that
15 came in from the Mladic home search and seizure, the Milutinovic search
16 and seizure, the Lesic footage that came in later, all of those have been
17 added since the original trial video. And I think there's -- I'm sure
18 there's more. If you want specifics we can go through the book, but off
19 the top of my head those are examples.
20 Q. I think that will suffice for now. Now at -- earlier today at
21 temporary transcript page 28 you said that one of the attorneys played a
22 substantial role in putting together this book. Could you identify for
23 us who that was?
24 A. Abeer Hasan.
25 Q. And did any other attorneys such as Mr. McCloskey or Mr. Groome
Page 10130
1 or any of the other attorneys appearing in court for this case have any
2 role in the creation or editing of this booklet?
3 A. Peter would have -- McCloskey would have had certainly a role in
4 terms of reviewing the book, deciding upon photographs to be kept in or
5 kept out. So certainly he played a review and editing role.
6 Q. And earlier in your testimony you talked about the identification
7 of certain vehicles and work performed by the team prior to your arrival
8 in generating this booklet. Am I correct that an individual named
9 Mr. Richard Butler assisted in the creation of this booklet?
10 A. Yes. I know that he had early on verified some of the vehicles,
11 the Praga and the tank. That was his initial checking of the vehicle
12 logs.
13 Q. Was his role in the creation of this booklet limited to that or
14 would it go beyond that aspect?
15 A. I don't think that he played a large role. I think it was some
16 of the investigators at that time working with Marta Fracassetti that
17 worked more closely with her and that would have been Bruce Bursik,
18 Jean Gagnon, and Dean Manning.
19 Q. And can I take it from your answer that you did not, in fact,
20 work with Mr. Butler in terms of your contribution to this booklet?
21 A. No. Rick Butler and I never overlapped in time here.
22 Q. Thank you. And now with regard to the identifications of both
23 persons and locations in the still book, as I mentioned there are a few
24 that identify -- that say they're identified by you by name. Can we take
25 it from that that the ones that do not have a notation with your name are
Page 10131
1 not the result of your personal identification of these persons and
2 locations?
3 A. That's true. Usually they'll be cited by somebody else. It
4 doesn't mean that I can't identify them or have not been able to identify
5 them, but that somebody else has -- prior to me had already done the
6 identification and we've just kept it consistent with that.
7 Q. Now, throughout the video that was shown in court there was
8 English subtitling and, first of all, the English subtitling that was
9 apparent throughout would change at times where there was a black
10 background. Do you know why that is?
11 A. Those were additions or corrections that were made from the
12 original subtitling, and -- so when a correction or something was
13 changed, as everything was reviewed again, if there was a change then it
14 was stamped -- that was put on top with a black background.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I am looking at the clock.
16 MR. IVETIC: One more question and then --
17 JUDGE ORIE: One more question and then we'll adjourn.
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Who was responsible for putting the original English subtitling
20 on the video or did it come to the OTP that way?
21 A. No, that's -- the OTP did the original subtitling. I know that
22 Zoran Lesic from our audio/visual production had done a lot of the
23 subtitling. I don't know if he did the -- all of the original, but he's
24 done the majority of it, I believe. I know it's -- I'll leave it at
25 that.
Page 10132
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think we're at a good point for a
3 break.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps I have one small question.
5 If you say he did the subtitling, do you mean in the technical
6 way or that he did also listening to the audio and preparing the
7 subtitles in --
8 THE WITNESS: No. Thank you. That's a good point to clarify.
9 It would have been with an interpreter initially who's done the
10 transcript and the transcript -- and has done the entire transcript, sat
11 down with Zoran Lesic, who is also a Serbian speaker, and together they
12 have gone -- they have put in the subtitling. But technically he is
13 doing it, but at times I know it's a joint -- it's a partnership.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.
15 We will adjourn, but not until you have left the courtroom,
16 Ms. Gallagher. We'd like to see you back next Tuesday at 9.30 in the
17 morning.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn and we'll resume Tuesday, the
20 23rd of April, at -- in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the morning.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of
23 April, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.
24
25