Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10706

 1                           Tuesday, 7 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness, Mr. Shin?

12             MR. SHIN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  And good morning,

13     counsel.

14             Yes, the Prosecution is ready with the next witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

16     courtroom.

17             Meanwhile, I take the opportunity to deal with the following

18     scheduling matter:  Having been informed by the Defence that there's no

19     objection to the latest Prosecution witness order, the Prosecution may

20     proceed as suggested in their latest schedule.

21             As for next week, Tuesday and Wednesday, the Chamber will not sit

22     in the mornings but in the afternoons.  Tuesday's session will start at

23     2.15 p.m. and end at 7.00 p.m. with the usual breaks.  Wednesday's

24     session will be as follows:  Starting at 3.15 p.m. until 4.30 p.m., and

25     then after a 30-minute break, we would continue with the scheduled

Page 10707

 1     videolink with two 80-minute sessions, with a 20-minute break into

 2     between which will take us to 8.00 p.m., and the parties are urged to

 3     organise their examinations of the videolink witness so as to conclude

 4     his testimony within those two days.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Apologies, Mr. Franken, for not paying proper

 7     attention to your arrival.  Before you give evidence in this Court, the

 8     rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed

 9     out to you.  May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

12     and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  ROBERT FRANKEN

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Franken.  Please be seated.

15             Mr. Franken you'll first be examined by Mr. Shin, you'll find him

16     to your right, and Mr. Shin is counsel for the Prosecution.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Shin.

18             MR. SHIN:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

19                           Examination by Mr. Shin:

20        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Franken.

21        A.   Morning you to you, sir.

22        Q.   Could you please state your full name for the record.

23        A.   Full name is it Robert Alexander Franken.

24        Q.   And is it correct, sir, that you provided signed statements to

25     the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal in September of 1995 and

Page 10708

 1     October of 2003?

 2        A.   It is correct.

 3        Q.   Have you also previously testified before this Tribunal in six

 4     cases; namely, the Krstic case in 2000, the Blagojevic case in 2003, the

 5     Slobodan Milosevic case in 2003, the Popovic case in 2006, Tolimir in

 6     2010, and Karadzic in January of last year?

 7        A.   That is correct as well.

 8        Q.   Sir, in preparation for your testimony in the Karadzic case, did

 9     you review a statement that amalgamated relevant portions of your

10     testimony in the Popovic, Blagojevic, Tolimir cases?

11        A.   That's correct.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly pause between question and answer for

13     the sake of interpretation.  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS:  I will.

15             MR. SHIN:  And I will slow down as well and make that pause.

16        Q.   Sir, in preparing to give evidence here today, did you have a

17     chance to review that amalgamated statement?

18        A.   I did.

19             MR. SHIN:  Could I please have 65 ter 28792 brought up in

20     e-court.

21        Q.   Mr. Franken, once the document is on the screen, could you please

22     view the first page and indicate whether you recognise the signature at

23     the bottom to be yours?

24        A.   That is my signature.  It's correct.

25        Q.   Could we then please go to the -- the last page of the document.

Page 10709

 1             And, sir, I will ask you again if you would recognise your

 2     signature at the bottom of that -- in this case, at the top of that page?

 3        A.   That is my signature as well.

 4        Q.   Now, do you recognise this document to be your amalgamated

 5     statement?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   When you reviewed this statement, were you able to identify any

 8     corrections that you wished to make?

 9        A.   No, no.  None whatsoever.

10        Q.   Perhaps if I could remind you of one issue.  In paragraph 39 was

11     there a term used to describe civilians at the Swedish shelter project,

12     the term used was "fugitives."  Was that correct or is another term

13     correct?

14        A.   Sorry, I forgot that.  No, that should be "refugees."

15        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And I will once again make sure that I pause

16     between questions and answers, and I would ask you to do likewise, sir.

17        A.   I'll do my best.

18        Q.   Apart from that correction, if you were asked today about the

19     same matters contained in the amalgamated statement would you provide the

20     same information, in substance, to the Trial Chamber?

21        A.   Yes, I would.

22        Q.   And having taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm that the

23     information in your amalgamated statement is truthful and accurate?

24        A.   It is.

25             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender

Page 10710

 1     65 ter 28792 into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic?  No objections.

 3             Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28792 receives number P1417 [Realtime

 5     transcript read in error "P2417"], Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P2417 is it?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it's 1417.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, P1417 is admitted into evidence.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Shin.

10             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11             I could address the associated exhibits now or at the end.  I

12     would note that I will be using several with the witness in direct

13     examination.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, since the number of associated exhibits

15     you -- you announced is above the guidance of the Chamber so, therefore,

16     let's first see how many you'll use during the examination.

17             MR. SHIN:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I would just

18     note also that since the filing of the 92 ter motion several of these

19     exhibits have actually been admitted into evidence, so we would be down

20     to ten associated exhibits.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. SHIN:  And possibly less, of course.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll deal with them at the end of the examination

24     of the witness.

25             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 10711

 1             And with Your Honours' permission I will now read a brief summary

 2     of the witness's evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 4             MR. SHIN:  Colonel Robert Franken served in the

 5     Royal Netherlands Army for 33 years retiring as a lieutenant-colonel.

 6     From January to July 1995, he was a major assigned to DutchBat in

 7     Potocari, where he was the deputy commanding officer and chief of

 8     logistics.  He describes the impact of the increasingly strict

 9     restrictions placed by the VRS on DutchBat supply convoys leading up to

10     the take-over of Srebrenica, including restrictions on spare parts,

11     communications equipment, food, weapons, fuel, and DutchBat personnel.

12             Colonel Franken describes events leading up to the VRS take-over

13     of Srebrenica, including the attack on observation post, or OP Echo, on

14     June 3rd and the attacks beginning on July 6th.  On July 10th, the VRS

15     issued an ultimatum demanding that civilians, BiH soldiers, DutchBat and

16     UNHCR leave the enclave by 0600 on July 11th.  By July 11th, most of the

17     Dutch OPs had fallen and their DutchBat crews were taken prisoner.

18             On the morning of the 12th of July, Serb forces entered Potocari.

19     Sometime afternoon, a large number of buses and trucks began arriving and

20     the transportation of the civilian population began.  Colonel Franken

21     ordered DutchBat officers to escort the first convoy but soon after the

22     VRS blocked other UN escorts, stripping them of their weapons, equipment,

23     and clothing.

24             Colonel Franken describes the fear and desperate humanitarian

25     conditions for the Muslims who had fled to Potocari.  There were reports

Page 10712

 1     of executions of Muslim men.  Men were separated and taken to the white

 2     house and then transported towards Bratunac.  The Serbs blocked DutchBat

 3     efforts to enter the white house and blocked their efforts to escort

 4     those buses as well.  Colonel Franken complained to VRS Colonel Jankovic,

 5     who told him the men at the white house were POWs.  To provide some

 6     measure of protection to these men in the compound, Colonel Franken had a

 7     list created of some 250 names of the men.  He informed Colonel Jankovic

 8     of the list.

 9             Later, Colonel Jankovic informed Colonel Franken of the ABiH

10     breakout from the enclave and stated that the Serb forces already had

11     6.000 POWs.  Colonel Franken also learned from one of his OP crews that

12     they had seen a large group of men kneeling in rows on a soccer field

13     with their hands on their necks.

14             Lastly, on JUL 17th, Colonel Jankovic asked Colonel Franken and

15     Mr. Nesib Mandzic to sign a document stating that the evacuations had

16     been conducted according to international law.  Colonel Franken added a

17     proviso to neutralise such assertions and signed the document because

18     doing so would facilitate the evacuation of wounded Bosnian Muslims.  He

19     describes as nonsense the document's assertion that the population could

20     remain in the enclave.

21             Your Honours, this concludes the summary of the witness's

22     evidence.  May I proceed with the questions?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

24             MR. SHIN:

25        Q.   Sir, in your amalgamated statement, and I'm referring generally

Page 10713

 1     to paragraphs 22 to 31, you described the restrictions on Dutch resupply

 2     convoys in the hardship that created in the Srebrenica enclave for

 3     DutchBat.

 4             Since we have it there, I won't go over those issues in any

 5     detail.  Rather, I'd like to focus on a few topics, taking first the fuel

 6     restrictions.  And you state that the last fuel convoy came in

 7     February of 1995, and that's in paragraph 26.  Would it be right that

 8     after that DutchBat still continued to request fuel resupply convoys?

 9        A.   That is correct.

10        Q.   And just to remind the Chamber you explain, paragraph 29, that

11     DutchBat needed 8.000 to 9.000 litres of fuel a day to do its job.  In

12     the period of March up to July 1995, how much fuel did DutchBat actually

13     have to use per day?

14        A.   Well, we came down to amount of 250 litres of diesel a day for

15     the complete battalion, including the observation posts.

16        Q.   Now, I would like to turn to a document that you've seen before.

17             MR. SHIN:  If you could please have 65 ter 05384 brought up on

18     the screen.  And -- yes, thank you.

19             Now, we'll have the English up in a minute but if I could begin

20     in the meanwhile.  This is -- and there it is.

21        Q.   This is a document from the 10th of March, 1995, and we can see

22     that it's from the Main Staff for the VRS to the Drina Corps Command.  I

23     would like to turn specifically to page 3 of the English and paragraph 4

24     in particular, and I believe that would be on page 2 of the -- of the

25     B/C/S in e-court.

Page 10714

 1             And I would like to direct your attention to approximately in the

 2     middle of that page, as you'll see under the word "note" the sentence:

 3             "We did not allow the following:  Three fuel tankers and five

 4     trailer trucks."

 5             And further down, on the second -- after the second word --

 6     second occasion of the word "note," there's a sentence that begins:

 7             "We did not allow 36 cubic metres of diesel fuel."

 8             Bearing in mind the date of this document, would this be

 9     consistent with the situation you've described in your amalgamated

10     statement?

11        A.   Yes, that is.  It is consistent with the actual situation.

12        Q.   I'd like to turn then to the last page of this document in

13     English.  I'm sorry, the second-to-last page.  That would be page 6.  And

14     that's the second page of the -- I'm sorry, the third page of the B/C/S.

15             And I'd like to direct your attention specifically to the bottom

16     paragraph where it states:

17             "Discuss the information on unapproved convoys with check-points,

18     do not tell third persons and do not give any explanation to UNPROFOR

19     representatives (pretend you did not get them).  If a convoy shows up at

20     a crossing point, return it to the place of departure."

21             My question to you, sir:  Did your convoy drivers ever receive,

22     in fact, any explanation as to the denials of resupply requests?

23        A.   No.  My drivers did not, my convoy driver did not, neither did I.

24        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  You anticipated my follow-up question.

25             MR. SHIN:  So with that, Your Honours, I would tender

Page 10715

 1     65 ter 05384 into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05384 receives number P1418,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, P1418 is admitted

 6     into evidence.

 7             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             I'd like to have another document brought up.  This time

 9     65 ter 05568.

10        Q.   Now, sir, this document, as we can see, is a 15th of June, 1995,

11     communication from the Main Staff, the VRS Main Staff, again to the

12     command of the Drina Corps.  If we could turn, please, to page 3 of the

13     English which should also be page 3 of the B/C/S, if I'm not mistaken.

14     We see at the bottom that the -- this document is signed -- or is under

15     the signature block of Colonel Radivoje Miletic, who is stand-in

16     Chief of Staff.  That's a little bit -- that last word is a bit obscured

17     by that English phrase draft translation.

18             My question to you, if I could direct your attention to this last

19     page where it states:

20             "Check the level of fuel in tanks, add the necessary tool (a

21     stick) ready for the checking, measure the level of fuel in the tanks at

22     the entrance to the enclave and after.  Carry out the checking and enable

23     them to move along the above cited routes."

24             Sir, do you know what this so-called checking of the level of the

25     fuel in the tanks what is this a reference to?

Page 10716

 1        A.   Well, they did check with a check literally how much fuel there

 2     was in the tanks of the vehicles coming in, so the tanks of the vehicle

 3     itself, and checked when they went out if there was still fuel in those

 4     tanks probably to prevent us from taking out fuel.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And just so that, if I understand your answer correctly,

 6     if you could confirm for the Trial Chamber you say the fuel tanks of the

 7     trucks itself.  These are not fuel tankers?

 8        A.   No, no, no, no.  Tanks for the vehicle itself to drive.

 9        Q.   I would like to briefly turn back to the first page of this

10     document.  And in the -- on the right-hand side in the English

11     translation, you'll see in the upper right-hand corner a reference that

12     reads, "Security officers shall" -- I'm sorry.  Let me read that line

13     above that, "NO BP, which is chief of intelligence and security," and

14     below that, "Security officers shall witness detailed control."  And it

15     is signed "M. Nikolic."

16             Do you recall who this M. Nikolic is?

17        A.   I suppose that is our liaison of the VRS being a member of the

18     Bratunac Brigade.

19        Q.   Do you recall what the first name of this individual was?

20        A.   Momo or something like that.  Sorry.

21        Q.   That's okay.  If you can't recall, I'll continue on.

22             The -- my last question on this document, sir, this checking of

23     the fuel tank with a stick, how long did that -- do you remember what

24     time-period that went on?

25        A.   Not really.  It -- it combined, it started at a certain time, and

Page 10717

 1     I can't remember whether that it ended.  I suppose they always did that

 2     after that, they started it.

 3        Q.   And we've seen that document is, of course, is June 15th.

 4             If you remember, do you know if that checking with a stick in the

 5     fuel tank started before that?

 6        A.   No, not exactly.  But around that date I heard that it was

 7     reported to me and I had a big laugh, but then it started, and I never

 8     had reports that it had been done before.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MR. SHIN:  If I could move on to the next document, please, and

11     that would be 65 ter ... I'm sorry, thank you, Ms. Stewart.

12             Can I -- the Prosecution would tender 65 ter 05568 into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05568 receives number P1419,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P1419 is admitted into evidence.

17             Could I ask one question before we proceed, Mr. Shin.

18             MR. SHIN:  Yes, of course, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Franken, you explained that checking would serve

20     the purpose of verifying whether no fuel was taken out of the compound --

21     was taken out of the enclave.  Now, is that ... or did I misunderstand

22     your ...

23             MR. SHIN:  Your Honour.

24             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I tried to say that the checking was

25     just that we didn't take any fuel from the vehicles who came in as a

Page 10718

 1     convoy vehicle.  That is what I meant.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me check.  Then I have misunderstood you

 3     and there is no need to put me question.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Shin.

 5             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   And thank you, Witness, for the clarification.

 7             Actually just before we move on to the next -- actually, if I

 8     could ask -- if I could have the next document brought up.  That's

 9     65 ter 05351.  And perhaps while we're waiting for that document to come

10     up, sir, just -- just incidentally you had mentioned that DutchBat

11     required 8.000 to 9.000 litres of fuel per day to operate.

12     Realistically, how much fuel, if it ever happened, would DutchBat be able

13     to take out of the fuel tank of convoy trucks?

14        A.   Well, all together, let's say when it was a bigger convoy there

15     were about ten vehicles.  We're talking about 150 or 200 litres diesel.

16        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now we have this document up and we see that it

17     is again a document from the Main Staff of the VRS on the first page at

18     the top dated 18th of June 1995.  On the right-hand side of the top we

19     see that it is sent to a number of brigades.

20             If I could briefly turn to the second page of this document,

21     please.  And we see that it is also signed by Colonel Radivoje Miletic,

22     who, as indicated in the signature block, is standing in for the

23     Chief of Staff.

24             MR. SHIN:  Just one moment, please, Your Honour.

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 10719

 1             MR. SHIN:  If -- I'm sorry, I think I had stated that it was

 2     signed, but that may -- there's a handwritten note about the standing in

 3     for the Chief of Staff.  But perhaps it's a --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, it seems that at least the name appears.

 5     Whether that is as a signature or just written is -- perhaps you could

 6     compare with the other ones.

 7             MR. SHIN:  Thank you very much, sir.

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, if we -- I would like to direct your attention to

 9     the first page of this document.  And going to -- under paragraph 3,

10     several lines down from -- from that, the beginning of paragraph, there's

11     a line that begins:

12             "Cargo for Srebrenica:  One container with eight pallets of

13     frozen food, one container with eight pallets of dry food, and one tanker

14     with 11 cubic metres of diesel fuel."

15             Now we saw that this document is dated the 18th of June, 1995.

16     You had explained that your last fuel convoy into -- for DutchBat was in

17     February.  So I'd like to ask you:  Do you recall receiving this 11 cubic

18     metres of diesel fuel?

19        A.   No, absolutely not.  And if it happened I'm sure that I would

20     recollect that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to turn your attention to a little

22     further down in that paragraph, the line beginning -- or the line that

23     reads:

24             "I demand a detailed check of all vehicles including the

25     inspection of cargo.  Pay special attention to the fuel in the fuel tanks

Page 10720

 1     and the fuel being brought into the enclaves."

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  There may be a problem with e-court.

 3             MR. SHIN:  It's at the --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I see there's a difference between the left and

 5     the right screen we have in front of us.

 6             MR. SHIN:  My apologies, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No -- I'm not blaming you for anything at this

 8     moment.  Let me see ...

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  LiveNote the record is moving, but it's stopped

10     in e-court.

11             MR. SHIN:  Oh, I see.  I understand.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  On page 14, line 8.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I take it that this is then a problem for the

14     technicians.  Because transcription is made.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, meanwhile, we can continue.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  At least on the left screen we still have the

19     transcription.  The only problem is that we can't move through it.  But

20     apart from that, the inconvenience is such that we can meanwhile

21     continue, Mr. Shin.

22             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             And I may have been a little ahead of myself.  But my apology, it

24     was directed to the fact that I think we should be on the second page of

25     the B/C/S for that last quote that I'd read.

Page 10721

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not yet working, but ...

 3             I think it's working now.  You may have to reconnect, but mine is

 4     functioning again.  And, again, by reconnecting, it should be okay.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We can continue, Mr. Shin.

 7             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             And just to reiterate I believe for that last quote I read which

 9     is page 1 of the English in e-court we should actually be on page 2 of

10     the B/C/S in e-court.

11        Q.   Sir, the -- the last quote I had read related to -- this issue of

12     pay special attention to the fuel in the fuel tanks and my question for

13     you is whether this reference that I've just read, is this the same issue

14     that you explained earlier about checking with the stick in the fuel

15     tanks to see if DutchBat has taken any fuel from the convoy trucks?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17             MR. SHIN:  Your Honour, with that, I would tender 65 ter 5351

18     into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

20             Therefore, Madam Registrar ...

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05351 receives number P1420,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P1420 is admitted.

24             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Colonel Franken, you explained in your statement, and that would

Page 10722

 1     be in paragraph 29 and elsewhere, that fuel shortages caused DutchBat to

 2     rely on foot patrols rather than vehicles.  You also described in your

 3     statement, paragraph 29, the impact of fuel shortages on food, water,

 4     medical services, and heating.  So I won't go through all that again

 5     since the Trial Chamber has your evidence.  But I'd like to focus on this

 6     issue of medical services.  Could you explain how it was that fuel

 7     shortages had an impact on medical services?

 8        A.   We had a hospital in the compound and that needed energy, energy

 9     for cooling supplies, energy to keep the operations room operational, et

10     cetera, et cetera.  And the only source of energy we had was fuel because

11     there was no energy source in the enclave whatsoever.  So all energy we

12     needed for all our jobs came from the diesel that was meant for

13     generators, so we had electric - electricity, I mean - and the dressing

14     station, the hospital needed electricity to keep their -- to keep

15     functioning.

16        Q.   Okay.  And I think that's clear.  But just to be sure, DutchBat,

17     did it have any other source of electricity apart from what was produced

18     by these generators?

19        A.   No, no.

20        Q.   In -- as I mentioned, you -- did you discuss the impact of fuel

21     shortages going well beyond vehicles?  Let me ask you this:  What impact,

22     if any, did it have on the weapons readiness, if I could uses that

23     phrase, of DutchBat?

24        A.   I'm not sure I understand your -- your question.  The lack of

25     energy was not directly diminishing our weapons capacities because that

Page 10723

 1     was all mechanical.  Lack of fuel did have impact on a maintenance,

 2     et cetera, of course, but not on the weapons system itself.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And following on that, this maintenance aspect, was there

 4     an issue that related to moisture in some of your ordnance or ammunition?

 5        A.   Yes.  If you -- I probably misunderstood your first question.

 6     But fact is that, for instance, the -- the -- the ammunition for our TOW,

 7     and the TOW is an anti-tank system, there are rockets in that and they

 8     have to be kept quite dry.  We had a sea container with a device in it to

 9     dry the air and there were the rockets for the TOWs stored.  But to a --

10     in a certain stage we came that far that we couldn't afford energy to dry

11     our rockets, which meant that the rockets and mortar, ammunition, and

12     things like that were not operational anymore because they were spoiled

13     by moisture.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And staying on this issue of ammunition and

15     weapons related issues, you describe in your statement, that would be

16     paragraph 30, the impact of the convoy restrictions on various weapons

17     and weapons systems.  So, again, I won't go through that.  I'd like to

18     focus your attention, though, to one aspect of your paragraph 30 where

19     you discuss that the average supplies of ammunition was at 16 per cent.

20     First, just to be clear, does that mean only 16 per cent of DutchBat

21     ammunition supplies were available for use?

22        A.   Yeah.  If you total it, that is correct.  We had 16 per cent of

23     the total amount of ammunition we should have.  But then again, that

24     16 per cent is a bit puzzling because it counted it all together.  It

25     meant that for specific ammunitions like anti-tank ammunition, I was down

Page 10724

 1     to zero.  But the system of UN reporting they wanted to know the total

 2     amount in numbers and then they said, You have that number so that means

 3     16 per cent.  But it doesn't really give a good picture of -- of the

 4     ammunition stores we had.  For instance, I had -- I had about 30 per cent

 5     of my small-calibre ammunition, meaning for the guns, the rifles of the

 6     soldiers, but my mortar ammunition was down to, yeah, approximately 10

 7     and my anti-tank ammunition was practically zero.  So 16 per cent gives

 8     a strange -- it's a strange way to report things but that is the actually

 9     situation.

10        Q.   Thank you for that explanation.  Sir, can you say, based on your

11     knowledge, whether the VRS would have known the impact of the convoy

12     restrictions on DutchBat operational effectiveness?

13        A.   Absolutely.

14        Q.   And how can you say that?

15        A.   Well, the weapons systems we had were -- were known to the VRS,

16     technically as well.  They knew exactly what came in and they controlled

17     that.  So they could make an estimation of our stocks.  A nice example is

18     we tried to get in testing equipment for the TOW.  Well, just to make

19     that clear, every time you start up the TOW system you have to do a check

20     with some kind of a computer, check some things, and then it's

21     operational.  That machine broke down and we tried to get in a new one.

22     But the VRS wouldn't let us which indicates that they really knew what

23     they were talking about.

24        Q.   And in this particular case, you're talking about this testing

25     system.  Would -- would it be -- in the same vein would it be right that

Page 10725

 1     other resupply requests you made also indicated what DutchBat basically

 2     needed?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, you've been discussing the convoy restrictions and it's

 5     in your statement relating to the fuel, food, troop rotations and

 6     equipment.  What was the impact of all this on DutchBat morale, if any?

 7        A.   Of course, it had impact on the morale of my soldiers.  To give

 8     an idea, they didn't get post from home, which is very important when

 9     you're in an isolated situation like that.  They didn't go on leaves

10     because they were not allowed to rotate.  We had a one -- every week we

11     had a two-minute shower for every of our soldiers, which is very little

12     seeing the circumstances.  And if you can't keep clean that's not good

13     for morale as well.  Food was during weeks only combat rations, never

14     fresh food.  We had even a period of about ten days or seven days that we

15     had a menu of in the morning for breakfast rice and peanut butter, for

16     lurch peanut butter and rise, and as dinner peanut butter and rice

17     combination.  And things like that are not good for morale.  That's

18     clear.

19        Q.   And again, based on your own knowledge, is this something that

20     military officer, including military officers of the VRS that they would

21     know was an impact on DutchBat?

22        A.   Yes, absolutely.

23        Q.   I'd like to turn to a different topic now, moving to the

24     9th of July.

25             In your amalgamated statement, paragraph 52, Your Honours, you

Page 10726

 1     explain that DutchBat received an order to defend Srebrenica with all --

 2     all military means.  You then describe issuing an operational order which

 3     is also referred to as a green order, I believe, which you explain in

 4     your statement was conveying to Captain Groen that he could immediately

 5     use all his means without the restrictions of the UN to execute this

 6     order.

 7             Now, my question for you at this stage is:  How would you

 8     characterise what "all of DutchBat's military means" realistically meant

 9     at this time, bearing in mind what you've just described about the impact

10     of the convoy restrictions?

11        A.   Sounds good, but in fact it meant that there were no restrictions

12     on weapon use.  Only problem was, of course, he had mortars but hardly

13     any ammunition for it.  Of course, he should have anti-tank systems, not

14     operational.  But just to make sure for him that if he wanted to use the

15     little mortar ammunition he had he was free to do so because there were

16     all kinds of restrictions within the mandate of using weapons systems.

17     And I tried to make clear to him that those restrictions were gone within

18     the -- this defence order for Srebrenica.

19        Q.   Now, let's turn to the operational order or green order itself.

20     If I could please have 65 ter 05278 up on the screen.

21             Colonel Franken, we're bringing up the -- probably the English

22     and B/C/S versions.  The Dutch is also available.  If you would like to

23     refer to that at any point, please just indicate so.

24             While we're waiting for that, sir, this is a document that you

25     have seen before.  It's -- as we can see it's from you to Captain Groen.

Page 10727

 1     Actually if you could just clarify for us, we see across the top in fact

 2     that there are several dates and times on this document.  But would it be

 3     correct that in the third -- more or less the third line, this reference

 4     to 9th of July, 1995, would that be the correct date?  And 1952 hours,

 5     would that be the correct time?

 6        A.   Yes, that's the correct time, as far as I recollect.

 7        Q.   I'm sorry, by correct time I mean the actual time of transmission

 8     of this document?

 9        A.   Yeah, yeah.

10        Q.   Now, if I can direct your attention we see about two-thirds of

11     the way down the page, and I believe in the B/C/S that would be around in

12     the middle of that -- of this page, we see the following letters, "N. B."

13     And then we see, "This is a seriously intended green assignment."  If we

14     look above, the contents of what -- of the assignment seem to be laid

15     out; namely, "Preparation and arrangement of defence of the southern edge

16     of Srebrenica."  And then there follows some directional guidance.  And

17     then the document states, "Prevent with all available means a

18     break-through of the BSA into the town."

19             First, are we reading this document correctly that this

20     paragraph that begins with the word "assignment" that this constitutes

21     the green assignment or the green order?

22        A.   It's correct.

23        Q.   Now, what we've just seen there -- are -- is this defensive

24     action and this preventative action that that is what is ordered.  In

25     seeing that, how should we understand the actually implementation of the

Page 10728

 1     green order concept in the situation facing DutchBat in

 2     9th of July, 1995?

 3        A.   At first, there are no two phases.  In fact, his order is to

 4     defend the city, and the aim of the defence is to prevent the BSA

 5     entering the town.  I won't give you a tactical lessons but you can have

 6     another type of defence.  But here it was:  Stop him before he enters

 7     town.  Which includes:  When he enters town, hit him out.  That's first.

 8             And just to read the transcript.

 9        Q.   I'm sorry --

10        A.   Implementation of the green concept, well -- well,

11     that's [indiscernible] before, but the point is we were an elite unit

12     trained for air assault.  So we were trained pretty aggressively with

13     full use of our weapon systems.  Then we had to go to Bosnia, we got UN

14     training.  In that training, we had to bring down the aggressive feelings

15     of our soldiers.  We have to cool them down.  We had to make policemen of

16     them and not elite soldiers anymore.  And during that training, we

17     used -- that is blue training.  Blue refers to the UN colours, blue

18     helmet, et cetera.  And if we did anything, we said, No, this is green,

19     which was meant normal operations, military operations.  So there is the

20     green and the blue words coming from.  To make sure for him that it is an

21     assignment the defence like in Germany against former Warsaw Pact or

22     something like that.  That's why I noted again, I put that note under it.

23     It is a seriously intended green assignment to get his nose in a

24     direction, or his mind in the direction, No, UN, I'm not a policeman

25     anymore, I'm a soldier now and I have to defend the town.

Page 10729

 1             You understand what I mean?

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And just, again, you've described the green

 3     order as using all military means --

 4        A.   Mm-hm --

 5        Q.   -- without UN restrictions, at least the green order in concept,

 6     but is actually, as we see here, is actually applied.  Given the

 7     limitations that you've described of DutchBat, what did -- all these

 8     military means, what did that mean?

 9        A.   In fact, he could rely on his machine-guns and rifles, point.  If

10     you mean all military means in actually that is all he had.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. SHIN:  Mr. President, we would tender 65 ter --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, can I have a question on this

14     document.

15             MR. SHIN:  Yes, of course, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I see the document is dated 9th July 1995.

17             My question to you, Mr. Franken, is:  What is the significance of

18     the date 12th September 1995 at the top of the document?

19             THE WITNESS:  I see they are received from Captain Hageman, so I

20     suppose that the source of this document where it came from, received

21     that from Captain Hageman, who was the commander of the blocking

22     positions out of his personal possession on the 12th September 1995.  It

23     is not -- that's what I suppose that happened.  It is not really has

24     anything to do with the document and the dates on the document itself.  I

25     think whoever had this or got this, got it from Captain Hageman and it

Page 10730

 1     was sent to them, or to him, on the 12 September 1995 when we were back

 2     in Holland quite some while.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The English version disappeared from the screen.

 5     Perhaps we can have the Dutch version on the screen to see what is

 6     written -- what is typed and what is in handwriting.

 7             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honour, that was going to be my very

 8     suggestion so we could see whether it is, in fact, handwritten across the

 9     top.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps meanwhile could the witness already answer

11     the following question.

12             Was there a Team 7 or was there a Team J?

13             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, Team 7 --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If you look at the Dutch version as soon as it comes

15     up on the screen, it says in handwriting "received from Captain Hageman,

16     12th September 1995."

17             Therefore, we --

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I see what you mean.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And then I see "ploeg," which is -- the Dutch is

20     translated as "team."  And then something appears which, as far as I can

21     decipher, could be either a 7 or a J.  Are you aware of any J team or a

22     7 team?

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we go back to the top of that page, please,

24     in Dutch.

25             THE WITNESS:  I see what you mean and I only can guess.  In that

Page 10731

 1     period, September 1995, there was a Dutch debriefing of DutchBat.  The

 2     interrogators or the debriefers were organised in teams.  So I suppose

 3     that it is Team 7 of the Dutch debriefing team.  It's not a unit or a

 4     part of DutchBat.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then your understanding would be that that

 6     debriefing team would have received this document from Captain Hageman.

 7             THE WITNESS:  It's correct, sir -- Your Honour, I mean.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You tendered it, Mr. Shin.

 9             No objections.

10             Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 5278 receives number P1421.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P1421 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. SHIN:

14        Q.   Sir, I'd like to move now to the events in Potocari on the

15     12th and 13th of July and focus first -- my first questions on what you

16     identify as the white house.

17             Now, you describe in your amalgamated statement, that would be

18     paragraph 86, that Muslim men were being brought there to a house, to

19     this White house, which you and others have identified, and that this

20     white house was about 150 metres from the entrance to the DutchBat

21     compound.

22             If I could please have 65 ter 17875 brought up on the screen.

23             Now, while we're waiting for that to come up, Colonel Franken,

24     what we'll see is an aerial image of the Potocari area around the

25     DutchBat compound and this is an aerial image that you will recall you

Page 10732

 1     marked during your testimony in the Popovic case.  If we could just have

 2     that enlarged I'll just ask you to orient yourself for a minute, and we

 3     see in the upper right-hand corner an arrow with the letter N indicating,

 4     presumably, the direction north?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   If we can see there you have marked around the middle of the

 7     document, a little bit to the left, the word white house.  Just so that

 8     we're clear that's the indication of that house.

 9             My question to you sir:  Did you go to the white house yourself?

10        A.   No, I did not.

11        Q.   How -- how close did you get to the white house?

12        A.   Well, it's 80 metres, 80, 90 metres just the beginning of the

13     road to the white house coming from the road Bratunac-Srebrenica.

14        Q.   Did you personally see the Bosnian Muslim men who were being led

15     there?

16        A.   Yes, I saw that there were columns of men brought to the house.

17        Q.   Were you able to see who it was who was leading those men?

18        A.   Yeah, they were brought there by the Bosnian Serbs.

19        Q.   And were -- just so that we're clear, when you say

20     "Bosnian Serbs," were these Bosnian Serbs in uniform?

21        A.   At that time, yes.

22        Q.   While we have this map up, could you just explain to the

23     Trial Chamber what this dotted line is that we see in the middle going

24     roughly in a north/south direction?

25        A.   During the events, I gave order to Major Otter, being the base

Page 10733

 1     commander, to prepare a safe route for the refugees to come into the

 2     compound.  Why that, the area you see on the photograph, say, left of our

 3     UN base, was completely inside of Serbian artillery.  And they used that

 4     gun oftenly, so I want to prevent that when the refugees came to our

 5     base, they came under fire of that Serb artillery.  So we had to recon,

 6     to recon I should say, a route which gave cover to that artillery and the

 7     dotted line is approximately the result of that recon.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And just to be clear, when you say that area to the

 9     left was completely -- left of the UN base was completely inside of

10     Serbian artillery would it be right that you mean they are within range

11     or [overlapping speakers] ...

12        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... in range anyway, but there was line of

13     sight from --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I again ask you to make short breaks between

15     question and answer and answer and question.

16             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please resume.  Perhaps we could -- I

18     think the question was whether it would be right that it was in range of

19     the Serb artillery.  And then could you re-start your answer there.

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             It was not only within range but it was in direct sight of a gun

22     positions directly north of Observation Post Papa on a reach.  And that

23     gun was used frequently.

24             MR. SHIN:

25        Q.   Thank you.  You state in your -- in your amalgamated statement,

Page 10734

 1     paragraph 89, you state that you informed Colonel Jankovic about the

 2     situation of the Muslim men being taken to the white house.

 3             Do you recall what it was that you told him about that situation?

 4        A.   Not exactly.  But -- but the meeting was that I got reports that

 5     the -- the treating of the men got worse and in some kind of phrase I

 6     made him clear that it was incorrect.  He had to do something about it.

 7     And as I recollect he said, Well, okay I'll see to it or -- and then he

 8     emphasised again that he in fact had nothing to do with the evacuation,

 9     et cetera, that he was only there to prepare the withdrawal of the

10     DutchBat itself.

11        Q.   And in your statement, you also explained that Colonel -- this is

12     paragraph 89 again, Your Honours, that Colonel Jankovic had told you that

13     these men were POWs --

14        A.   Mm-hm.

15        Q.   -- and that if the Serb soldiers were being too aggressive he

16     would take steps to prevent it.

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   To the best of your recollection were you aware of any steps that

19     were take [overlapping speakers]

20        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... I don't know whether he took any steps

21     but I didn't see any results.

22             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter

23     17875 into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Aerial marked by the witness in a previous case.

25             Madam Registrar.

Page 10735

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 17875 receives number P1422,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P1422 is admitted into evidence.

 4             Could I ask one additional question, Mr. Shin.

 5             MR. SHIN:  Yes, of course.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Franken, you said that you were not at the white

 7     house but you saw columns of men taken there.  Do you remember what they

 8     were wearing and whether they were carrying any arms?

 9             THE WITNESS:  The -- the men going in were civil or a combination

10     of civil and military clothing.  Quite a lot of them still had bags or --

11     or things like that with them and they went in a column to the house and

12     I could even see some men on the balcony of the white house.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was about arms.

14             THE WITNESS:  Arms.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether they were carrying arms.

16             THE WITNESS:  The Bosnian Muslims were not carrying arms, sir.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us, you -- the picture of men

18     being dressed in civilian or in a combination of civil and military

19     clothing, was it that all of them had this mixed clothing or a small part

20     of them, or -- could you further elaborate on that.

21             THE WITNESS:  The men I saw then, a part of them had, for

22     instance, camouflage trousers or things like that and the rest of them

23     were in civilian.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what the approximate percentage

25     was of persons which were mixed.  Was that a majority or was that a

Page 10736

 1     minority or was it a small minority?  Could you ...

 2             THE WITNESS:  I understand your question.

 3             So the party I saw it was a minority.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, 45 to 55 is a minority; 20 to 80 is a

 5     minority as well.  Could you any further.

 6             THE WITNESS:  I'll try to give figures.

 7             The group I saw was approximately 30 up till 40 men in total, and

 8     I think 10 up to 15 were combinations of civil and military clothing.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have a short follow-up question.

11             You said, I quote:

12             "Quite a lot of them still had bags or things like that with

13     them."

14             What did they do with these bags?

15             THE WITNESS:  Well, later on, it proved that those bags and

16     rucksacks, et cetera, were piled at the -- quite close to the road,

17     Bratunac-Srebrenica, say about 70 metres in front of the white house, and

18     later they set fire on that.  They, I mean, the VRS set fire on those

19     Muslim belongings.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, I'm looking at the clock.  We'll take a

22     break of 20 minutes.

23             Mr. Shin, are you on track as far as time is concerned?

24             MR. SHIN:  Yes, I am, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break, but not until after

Page 10737

 1     Mr. Franken has left the courtroom.

 2             You may follow the usher.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 8             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, if I may, while waiting for the witness

 9     to come in, could I please have the next document brought up on e-court.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course.

11             MR. SHIN:  That would be 65 ter 05142.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Shin.

14             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Colonel Franken, just before we took the break, you heard

16     His Honour Judge Fluegge's question regarding the burning of the bags and

17     other materials that you saw in front of the white house.

18             I am -- I've asked for an image to be brought up on the screen.

19     And you will recall in your amalgamated statement and paragraph 100,

20     Your Honours, you do address this picture.  Do you recognise this --

21     these two pictures, these two photographs, in fact, as images showing

22     that burning?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24             MR. SHIN:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter 05142

25     into evidence.

Page 10738

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05142 receives number P1423,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P1432 is admitted into evidence.  Mr. Stojanovic

 5     indicated there were no objections.

 6             MR. SHIN:

 7        Q.   Now, sir, continuing on with the situation in Potocari on the

 8     12th and 13th of July, in your statement at paragraphs 94 and 95, you

 9     discuss two reported executions in Potocari the first of these was a

10     discovery of nine bodies in the -- behind the area of the white house and

11     that was reported to you by Lieutenant-Colonel Koster himself.  That is

12     in paragraphs 94 and 95.  Just so that we're clear, was it

13     Lieutenant-Colonel Koster himself who saw those bodies?

14        A.   Just for the record, it is a Lieutenant Koster not

15     lieutenant-colonel Koster in the transcript.  But that is correct.

16     Koster was there himself.

17        Q.   And the Chamber may recall hearing some evidence on this last

18     July.

19             Colonel Franken, I'd like to ask you about the second report of

20     an execution which you address in your statement and that's also in those

21     two paragraphs.  This is -- this involved a single -- a one -- one person

22     who was executed in this instance and you explained that it was reported

23     to you by a DutchBat soldier -- I'm sorry, that it was reported to you

24     that a DutchBat soldier from Charlie Company had witnessed the execution.

25             My question to you is:  Do you recall -- if you can, do you

Page 10739

 1     recall of that soldier?

 2        A.   No.  No.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4        A.   Yes, well, Groenewegen, Groenewelt.  Well, sorry, no I don't

 5     recall.

 6        Q.   That's fine.  Thank you.  How was this -- how was that

 7     information reported to you?  Was it like Lieutenant Koster by the

 8     witness himself or was it through another channel?

 9        A.   As far as I understood, a soldier reported that to his company

10     commander Captain Matthijssen, company C, and the company commander

11     reported that to the Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans.  And as far as I

12     recollect I heard it from Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, so it was not

13     reported directly to me.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to turn briefly now back to the

15     situation, the take-over of DutchBat OPs.  This is set out in some detail

16     in your statement, mostly paragraphs 38 through 51 but also in 58 through

17     59, so I won't be going through most of that.  What I'd like to focus

18     your attention on is the crew of OP Alpha.  You explain in paragraph 99

19     that they were brought back to the enclave.  Unlike the other crews they

20     were not taken prisoner in Bratunac.  And you state -- you explain in

21     your statement that they reported to you that on their way back to

22     Potocari, they saw a big group of men kneeling in a soccer field.

23             If you can, could you -- if you can, can you describe to the

24     Trial Chamber what this means, the big group?  How many are we talking

25     about?

Page 10740

 1        A.   Well, I didn't get a number but it said a massive group so I

 2     can't give numbers.  And as far as I recollect those men were on their

 3     knees with their hands in their neck in rows in that field.

 4        Q.   And the best that you can recall, do you know what place that was

 5     where your men saw this?

 6        A.   The exact place I do not know.  I only can deduce it was on the

 7     route from the military area to Bratunac because that's the route they

 8     followed when they were brought back.  So somewhere along that route,

 9     that road.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin paragraph 99 starts with, "After the 13th

12     of July," which is a rather vague reference as far as time is concerned.

13     It's reads:

14             "After 13th July when the crew of Observation Post Alpha was

15     brought back over a road north of the enclave."

16             Is there a mistake or could you clarify that with the witness?

17             MR. SHIN:

18        Q.   Sir, you've heard His Honour's question.  The paragraph 99 in

19     your statement begins after 13th of July, is that correct?  Or to the

20     best of your recollection when did the -- first of all, when did the

21     screw of OP Alpha get back to Potocari, and secondly, to the best of your

22     recollection, when did the crew from OP Alpha see the men in the field?

23        A.   To answer the last question, they saw it during their move back

24     to the camp.  But as far as I recollect, I'm not sure it was in the end

25     of the 13th of July or in the morning of the 14th, that they actually

Page 10741

 1     came back.  But, I'm sorry, I don't exactly know anymore.

 2        Q.   Okay.  But if --

 3        A.   Time-period, let's say between 13th of July, 1800, somewhere up

 4     until the 14th early in the morning.  1100.  Somewhere around there.

 5        Q.   And you've just explained that that's the time that they came

 6     back.  When would it be that they saw these men kneeling in the field.

 7     When would it be that these men were kneeling in the field?

 8        A.   It would be a guess.  Seeing the distance and they were brought

 9     in with one of my own trucks because the VRS asked me to give them a

10     truck and a driver to pick up the crew of OP Alpha, I figure they had a

11     time -- they needed to move from Alpha on that route to Potocari will be

12     an hour, hour and a half, seeing the condition of the roads.  So, yeah,

13     during that move, they saw it.  But I can't connect an exact timing on

14     it.

15        Q.   And just to be clear, which day are we talking about then?

16        A.   Yeah, well, as I told you, to my recollection, now it was the end

17     of the 13th.  But I'm not sure.  It could have been the morning of the

18     14th as well.  I'm very sorry, but it's long ago.

19        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  I'd like to move on to a list that you had made

20     of names of Bosnian Muslim men inside the compound at Potocari.

21             You describe in your statement, paragraphs 90, 91, various

22     aspects of how this list was made so I won't go through that.  Bu could

23     you explain to this Court what your motivation was.  Why was it you

24     believed that it was important to create this list?

25        A.   Yeah, well, as I stated before, we saw the handling of the men in

Page 10742

 1     the white house getting worse.  I tried to get patrols over there to do

 2     something in which I did not succeed.  So I tried to find out a way to

 3     give them some more protection.  And then I remembered that, as far as I

 4     know, a NGO did in a similar situation he gave the man an identity by

 5     making a list, trying to get photographs, et cetera, and make it public

 6     that things were happening.  That's exactly what I meant with it.  My

 7     idea was, Okay, give them a name, make a list, make to the out world

 8     clear that 251 men, not anonymous but with names and ages, et cetera, are

 9     in the hands of the Bosnian Serbs.  And that's why I decided to send it

10     to every higher level I had in that time, with the request to publish it

11     or to make it known.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you also state in paragraph -- in your statement

13     that would be paragraph 112, that in due course you had an opportunity to

14     tell Colonel Jankovic about this list.  Do you recall whether

15     Colonel Jankovic said anything in response when you explained to him --

16        A.   No --

17        Q.   -- this list.

18        A.   There was no reaction, took it for granted.

19        Q.   Could you tell the Court when it was, to the best of your

20     recollection, that you told Colonel Jankovic about this list?

21        A.   Yes, just digging in my memory.  It would have been on the 13th.

22        Q.   And approximately what time on the 13th, if you can say?

23        A.   No, I can't say that.

24        Q.   Now --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, Mr. Franken, could I ask you again not to

Page 10743

 1     overlap.

 2             MR. SHIN:  Yeah.

 3        Q.   Colonel Franken, that is my fault.  I will take care to pause

 4     between the question and the answer.  If you would follow likewise I

 5     think we should be good.

 6        A.   I will try my best again.

 7        Q.   Now you also indicate in your statement that later after you'd

 8     told Colonel Jankovic about this list, that Colonel Jankovic informed you

 9     about the breakout of the 28th Division, and just so we're clear this is

10     the ABiH 28th Division; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And by break out, again just to be clear, that's breaking out

13     from the enclave?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In paragraph 112, you also state that Colonel Jankovic told you

16     that they already had 6.000 POWs.  Can you tell this Chamber with as much

17     precision as possible when it was that you recall he told you that?

18        A.   The end of the 13th, it must have been.

19        Q.   And just so that we're clear when you told you they had 6.000

20     POWs, that's obviously the VRS; is that correct?

21        A.   Obviously, yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  I would like to move now to your meeting on the

23     17th of July with delegation headed by again -- in this -- once again

24     this individual had you met before, Colonel Jankovic.

25             You explain in paragraph 105 of your statement that the part of

Page 10744

 1     the document stating that the population can remain in the enclave or

 2     evacuate.  You use the word "nonsense" in your statement to describe

 3     that.  And you explained that the population did not have a "realistic

 4     opportunity" to stay and that "they did not have a choice."

 5             Now my question to you, sir, this may be obvious, this may have

 6     been obvious to you in that place and at that time, but could you please

 7     explain to the Trial Chamber today why concretely you believed there was

 8     no realistic opportunity or choice to stay?

 9        A.   Yes, I can.  Then I'll have to describe shortly the situation the

10     population was in.  Weather 30, 35 degrees centigrade, no water, no food,

11     bad hygienic situation.  The people were exhausted.  When they stayed --

12     well, the choice.  There was theoretically a choice.  The choice is in

13     being crowded in weather like that with no supplies, with no food, with

14     no medical care comes to the fact then die slowly or get out.  If you

15     call that a choice, they had a choice.

16        Q.   And, Colonel Franken, continuing in that vein you mention

17     elsewhere in your statement, and, Your Honours, I'm referring to

18     paragraph 80, when you describe the transportation of the population out

19     of Potocari, you used the word -- that they voluntarily got on the buses.

20     At the same time, you explained that they had no other choice, no

21     alternative.  In the same vein, was the choice that you just outlined

22     between dying slowly or getting out, was that what you meant?

23        A.   That's what I meant, yes.

24        Q.   Turning back briefly to this 17th of July statement, if I could

25     please have -- it's -- it's -- it's in evidence already.  If I could

Page 10745

 1     please have on the screen P1138 [Realtime transcript read in error

 2     "P1118"] just for reference during the witness's testimony.

 3     Colonel Franken, as you explain in your statement you added a provision,

 4     handwritten, to the end of this declaration that's reads:

 5             "As far as convoys actually escorted by UN forces are

 6     concerned..."

 7             And while we're waiting for this document to come up, and we see

 8     that on the very bottom of the -- of the text.  Could you -- in your

 9     statement you explain that you by including this phrase you wanted to

10     neutralise this whole statement.  Can you explain that?

11        A.   Yes.  It was known that we did not actually or effectively could

12     escort the -- the -- the convoys and by adding this phrase into my

13     opinion, I neutralised or I gave that declaration no further meaning, no

14     content in fact.  Because, in the end I said, Yeah, could have been.  But

15     we couldn't see that or we can't confirm that because we were not able to

16     really control the situation.

17        Q.   And given the explanations you've just provided to this

18     Trial Chamber, could you explain to them also why it was -- given your

19     understanding of this document, your perception of this document, why it

20     was that you signed it?

21        A.   Well, yeah, Colonel Jankovic made in a -- in a way clear to me

22     that it would be -- what do you say.  That it would be good for -- for --

23     for the -- the -- the -- the transport of the 59 wounded, that it would

24     make that easier when this -- this declaration was signed.  He had not

25     said that it was a condition, but it would -- what do you say.  Sorry.

Page 10746

 1     It would be -- it would positively influence the -- the transport of the

 2     wounded.  I think that's the best thing I can make of it.

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, I see on the transcript it reads that

 5     P1118 was called and we're talking about P1138.

 6             MR. SHIN:  Yes.  My apologies, Your Honour.  That is correct.  It

 7     is 1138.  I certainly had that written down, so I'm sorry if I misread

 8     that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least there is a problem in the transcript

10     and it has been corrected now.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   The last document that I'd like to show you, Colonel Franken, if

14     I could please have -- well, let me say this is a document that you were

15     not shown by me but I believe you were shown in your Karadzic testimony.

16     This is a document that's in evidence.  It's under seal.  So if we could

17     have it brought up on the screen but not transmitted.  It's P1235.

18             MR. SHIN:  And I just quickly explain, Your Honours, that we had

19     this on our list of potential additional exhibits as 65 ter -- under a

20     different 65 ter number, but the two documents are identical.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And on your list appeared what document.

22             MR. SHIN:  It would be 20939A.  And the original 65 ter number of

23     the admitted document would be 20939B.

24             May I continue?

25        Q.   Colonel Franken, if you could please read this.  It's -- it's

Page 10747

 1     very brief.  If you could just read this intercept document.  If could

 2     you just signal when you've had a chance to do so.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   We see near the top in that first paragraph that the letter M is

 5     indicated as General Mladic speaking.  And in the second line, he is

 6     asking:

 7             "Have these buses and trucks left?"

 8             Now further down, we see the quote:

 9             "They've all capitulated and surrendered and we'll evacuate them

10     all, those who want to and those who don't want to."

11             And this is again indicated as being stated by General Mladic.

12             Now this sentiment that all those will be evacuated who want to

13     and those who don't want to, is this consistent with the reality of what

14     you saw in terms of the real choice or opportunity to remain in the

15     enclave?

16        A.   As I said, in fact, they didn't have a choice, and, well, this is

17     consistent with it.

18        Q.   Thank you very much, Your Honour -- Mr. Franken.

19             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, no further questions at this stage by

20     the Prosecution.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You want to tender this document?

22             MR. SHIN:  It's already in evidence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's already in evidence.  Yes, you told us before.

24             Before I give an opportunity to the Defence to cross-examine the

25     witness, I have a few questions.  I don't know, Mr. Franken, you don't

Page 10748

 1     have a hard copy of your statement before you.

 2             Is any of the parties -- we could also have it on the screen.

 3     I'm looking for paragraphs 11 and 12.

 4             MR. SHIN:  With the assistance of the Court Officer, the

 5     statement to be provided to Colonel Franken.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Could I start with paragraph 12.  Mr. Franken, paragraph 12

 8     starts with the following words:

 9             "The contacts to the Bosnian Serb army were through the Chief of

10     Staff of the 28th Division, Ramiz."

11             Is that what you intended to say?

12             THE WITNESS:  No.  That's incorrect, sir.  It would have been

13     very nice when the situation was like that, we wouldn't have a situation

14     there.  But it is incorrect.  The Chief of Staff 28th Division, the

15     28th Division is a Muslim division, and it should be that the contact to

16     the Bosnian Serb army were through Major Nikolic of the Bratunac Brigade.

17     I indicated that before.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Or it should be in view of what then follows, the

19     contact to the BiH army were through because the follow-up is all about

20     the context, I'd say with the 28th Division and with Mr. Oric.  So that

21     is then corrected hereby and understood.

22             MR. SHIN:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now I'd like to take you back also to

24     paragraph 11.  You said:

25             "The problem was that in fact there were three confrontation

Page 10749

 1     line, three borders of the enclave.  There was an UN border, a

 2     Bosnian Serb border, more or less 1 or 2 kilometres further within the

 3     enclave, and the Muslim border, which was locally 1 or 2 kilometres

 4     further outside the UN border."

 5             Now if I try to imagine for myself that what happens, you have a

 6     separation line, an UN separation line, and then the Bosnian Serbs 2

 7     kilometres further within, and the Muslims 2 kilometres further out,

 8     which gives a -- I just have difficulties in fully understanding how that

 9     works because there would be an overlap of 4 kilometres in which there

10     were both Bosnian Serb and ABiH forces.

11             THE WITNESS:  No, it would have been 4 kilometres when that

12     difference was on the same spot, Your Honour.  For instance, in the

13     south, in the area of Zeleni Jadar, the Bosnian Serbs claimed that the

14     border was including OP Echo, and the ABiH claimed that the border was

15     further south -- sorry, yeah, farther south of Zeleni Jadar and there the

16     difference was about 800 metres.  The 2 kilometres referred to the

17     maximum difference in opinion, but it was never on the same spot.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So, as a matter of fact, there was dispute about

19     where the separation lines between the armies should be more inside or

20     more outside of the enclave, according to the UN --

21             THE WITNESS:  That is correct, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- borders.  That is how we have to understand it.

23     That's clear to me now.

24             Thank you for those answers.

25             THE WITNESS:  You're welcome, Your Honour.

Page 10750

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready to cross-examine the

 2     witness, you may proceed.

 3             Mr. Franken -- and by the way, I address you as Mr. Franken and

 4     not by title or rank.  That is a habit in this courtroom just to call

 5     everyone mister or madam.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic will now cross-examine you.  Mr. Stojanovic is

 7     counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 8             You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Franken.  I'm also going to

11     address you in that same way.  Please don't feel offended because that is

12     our usual practice.

13             Let us start with the last topic discussed a while ago, and

14     His Honour pointed out to the three separation lines in paragraph 11.

15             Would you agree with me that the very fact that there was no

16     accurate delineation or that there were no identical interpretation of

17     the separation line was a latent cause of dispute between the warring

18     parties?

19        A.   As far as your first mark is there was an accurate delineation.

20     For us, it was the UN border.  And for the interpretation of the line and

21     the cause of dispute, I can agree on that.

22        Q.   Let us first address a topic that has already been tackled and

23     that is the UNPROFOR mandate in the Srebrenica demilitarised zone.

24             Before January 1995, did you have any information about what your

25     specific duties would be?

Page 10751

 1        A.   Yeah.  The order -- the assignment we had from the UN was known

 2     to me before I came to Bosnia; that is correct.

 3        Q.   Did it derive from the cease-fire agreement in the territory of

 4     the enclave concluded between General Ratko Mladic and

 5     General Sefer Halilovic on the 8th of May, 1993?

 6        A.   I don't know the exact text of that -- that agreement, but as far

 7     as I know, it did not derive.

 8        Q.   Can we please first look at those documents and then I'm going to

 9     ask you how you perceived your mandate.

10             And for that purpose, can we please call up P23 in e-court.

11             Please look at paragraph 3, 4, and 5.  Can we please have

12     paragraphs 3, 4, and 5.  Mr. Franken, in paragraph 3 of this agreement,

13     there is mention of demilitarisation, and deadlines are set for the

14     surrender of weapons by the parties.

15             In paragraph 5, it is stated what UNPROFOR is supposed to do.

16     And it also says, in passage 3 of paragraph 5, that in order for it to be

17     able to carry out the rotation and other jobs relating to units would

18     have the freedom of movement outside of the demilitarised zone.

19             And in the next paragraph, it says --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please slow down when

21     reading.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you're invited to slow down when

23     reading.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you:

25             "Non-combatants who are in or who are willing to enter the

Page 10752

 1     demilitarised zone, except members or UNPROFOR, are not permitted to have

 2     in their possession any weapon, ammunition, or explosives.  Weapons,

 3     ammunition or explosives in their possession shall be seized by

 4     UNPROFOR."

 5             And the last passage reads:

 6             "Combatants will not be allowed to enter or to be in the

 7     demilitarised zone."

 8        Q.   Was that precisely your mandate, among other things?

 9        A.   It was.  We had orders to demilitarise the zone, that's correct.

10        Q.   We can agree that at the time when you arrived there in

11     January 1995 the zone was not demilitarised.

12        A.   That is correct.

13        Q.   The weapons and artillery pieces handed over prior to your

14     arrival, in the course of the initial implementation of the agreement,

15     was negligible, in terms of the quality and in terms of quantity, and in

16     terms of the level of state of the art of weapons concerned.

17        A.   Yes.  Is that a question or a statement, sir?  If you want me to

18     confirm, I could confirm, yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, I just wanted you to confirm this.

20             Will you agree with me that neither the DutchBat, during their

21     mandate, failed, despite their good will, to disarm the elements of the

22     28th Division deployed inside the enclave?

23        A.   Yes.  I have to admit that we failed in that.

24        Q.   Mr. Franken, we're going to discuss later the so-called green

25     order.  Can you tell me now whether, according to this agreement and its

Page 10753

 1     language, can you tell us if you can see here a basis for the green order

 2     and the possibility, so to speak, of siding with one of the warring

 3     parties?

 4        A.   No.  In the agreement, there is not a basis for the green order.

 5     That is stated before.  The very moment that order came to defend the

 6     city, we concluded that our mandate had changed.  And the possibility of

 7     siding with one of the warring parties, no, the mandate didn't give that.

 8     We can discuss whether it took place, but, in fact, no.

 9        Q.   Who was the entity that could have altered your mandate

10     unilaterally without consultations with the warring parties?

11        A.   Simple.  My next echelon, my higher command being BH command or

12     Sector North-East.

13        Q.   Was such an order altering your mandate that gave rise to the

14     green order, did it arrive from north-east headquarters in Tuzla?

15        A.   The order to defend the city of Srebrenica came from BH Command,

16     BH Command being the command of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17        Q.   Was it conveyed through usual channels, BH Command,

18     north-east Command, Sarajevo-Tuzla, Tuzla DutchBat or was it transferred

19     directly from Sarajevo to the DutchBat?  Altering your mandate?

20        A.   As in fact as I remember, it came directly down from BH Command,

21     and in the text there was not a remark about altering my mandate but

22     there was a discussion that the mission to defend would be impossible

23     within the existing mandate.  And as far as I heard from

24     Colonel Karremans the remark was, Well, you've got to defend the city,

25     point.

Page 10754

 1        Q.   Can you tell us when the alteration of your mandate occur and

 2     when Colonel Karremans received an instruction to apply the green order

 3     and I also involve there the DutchBat as well.

 4        A.   Again, the alteration of the mandate was implicit to the order to

 5     defend, and we got that order on the 9th of July.  Yes.

 6        Q.   The reason I'm asking you is that I'm puzzled by something in

 7     document P1421.  And, Your Honours, if we can please have a brief look at

 8     that document.

 9             You will remember that that document was referred to in

10     examination-in-chief and that it is dated the 9th of July.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, Mr. Stojanovic, I will have a

12     question on this document that's on the screen.

13             I just wanted to ask Mr. Franken, Mr. Franken, when you got to

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you -- your mandate derived from this document,

15     or did it derive from the United Nations?

16             THE WITNESS:  When we got into Bosnia it was DutchBat III, there

17     was a written operational order in which our task was mentioned.  And to

18     be brief about that, we had the order to deter any aggression by

19     presence, facilitate humanitarian aid, and -- well, that was --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just interrupt you.  Is that document that

21     you're talking about, is it this document?

22             THE WITNESS:  No, sir.  This is an agreement.  We didn't get that

23     agreement.  We had a written military order from the UN, probably being

24     BH command, in which our tasks were described.  And our mission was, as I

25     said, to deter by presence, facilitate humanitarian aid, and the third

Page 10755

 1     thing, I --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When was the first time you saw this document?

 3             THE WITNESS:  If you mean this agreement, sir, I never saw that.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Until today.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Until today, that's correct.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 7             You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   While we are waiting for document P1421, I'd like to ask you

10     this, Mr. Franken.

11             Are you aware of the existence of such a written order relating

12     to your mandate somewhere in archives whether it be of the DutchBat or

13     somewhere in Sarajevo?  Did you have this piece of paper in your hands at

14     any point?

15        A.   If you mean such a written order, and you mean the order to

16     defend the city of Srebrenica, I had that in my hand, that is correct, on

17     location.  And whether it is in some archive or not, I really don't know.

18        Q.   I was interested in the order that you spoke in response to

19     His Honour Judge Moloto's question, and that concerned your mandate.

20        A.   You mean the initial order we had when we came in the -- the

21     enclave.  Yeah, I saw that order, of course, because we made an order for

22     our battalion based on that order.  I don't have that anymore, and

23     whether it's in any archive or not, I suppose it is, but I really don't

24     know.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just intervene for a short moment.

Page 10756

 1             It's not the first time now that we're dealing with this

 2     agreement between the parties, the demilitarization agreement.  I'm

 3     seeking the input of the parties on the following question.

 4             In the beginning of this document, it says that the demilitarised

 5     zone should be announced by -- by announcements.  Demilitarised zone,

 6     Article 60 of the -- of Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions.  Is it the

 7     view of the parties that, apart from what is agreed there, that the

 8     demilitarised zone is governed by Article 60 of Protocol I?

 9             That's my question.

10             MR. SHIN:  Your Honour, speaking for the Prosecution, we would

11     request a little bit of time to consider that before coming back to you

12     on that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, then you would like to have

14     additional time as well, isn't it?

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a starting

16     point, and I would have preferred that we don't have to discuss any of

17     this provided we can all agree on the issue of demilitarization and

18     everything else, and I that would facilitate matters greatly, but I think

19     this will have to be discussed with three or four more upcoming

20     witnesses.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I wonder whether we have to ask witnesses about

22     these legal issues, because they've never said anything about it.  So,

23     therefore, I wonder whether we need -- there's an old Latin saying that

24     the Court knows the law and, of course, the Court is always assisted by

25     the parties in getting full knowledge of the law.  And whether we need

Page 10757

 1     witnesses for that is a different matter.

 2             Mr. Shin.

 3             MR. SHIN:  Mr. President, I'm not sure if I understood entirely

 4     what Mr. Stojanovic was saying but if his position on -- is that the

 5     enclave was suppose to be demilitarised, well, yes we do agree that that

 6     was supposed to have happened.

 7             On a question of law, as I indicated if that is a matter we would

 8     like some time to come back to Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  In relation to that, I would also like to hear the

10     view of the parties on what their position is in view of the validity of

11     this agreement in 1995, whether it applies or not.

12             MR. SHIN:  We will discuss that issue as well and revert to you,

13     Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And perhaps you pay specific attention to

15     Article 60, paragraph 7, of Protocol I.

16             Meanwhile, let's proceed.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Mr. Franken, let us look again at document P1421.  I understood

19     when you said that the order altering your -- your mandate you received

20     on the 9th of July and that was directly from the Command in Sarajevo.

21     But what confuses me is that there is a sentence in this document which

22     reads that this is a seriously planned covert task.

23             Prior to the moment when your mandate was changed, did you review

24     or discuss such an option?  That means becoming involved in active combat

25     operations, which is something that is contained in the green order.

Page 10758

 1        A.   As first remark, I can't read in the document where it says that

 2     it is a seriously planned covert task, but --

 3        Q.   If I may help you, it's somewhere in the middle of the English

 4     text, when you see N. B.  And there were the sentence that I quoted is.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No the quote is incomplete.  I think it was not a

 6     covert task.  It was:

 7             "This is a seriously intended green assignment."

 8             Is that what you wanted to refer to, Mr. Stojanovic?  Or is there

 9     anything else.

10             MR. SHIN:  Your Honour, if I may.

11             There -- it may be there is an error in the translation in the

12     B/C/S version.  The -- our interpreters booth can perhaps correct us on

13     that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, usually the interpreters are not there

15     to perform translation or -- but if they could help us out just for a

16     second whether what we see in the B/C/S version of this document, as it

17     appears on our screen at this moment, whether that reflects in B/C/S the

18     English N. B, "this is a seriously intended green assignment."

19             THE INTERPRETER:  No, Your Honours.  The word "tajni" which means

20     "secret" or "covert" was added in the translation into B/C/S.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently something has been added into the

22     translation and I think that the English seems to be, to me, a -- an

23     accurate translation of the original Dutch version.

24             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, if I may also I fully understand that

25     this is not what the interpreters' booths are for.  But just on this

Page 10759

 1     issue in addition to the addition of the word in the B/C/S translation

 2     that was cited it may be that there is a word missing.  If the

 3     interpreters' booths could please alert us to that, and the specific word

 4     I'm thinking of is "green."

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I think if we commit ourselves to not to ask again

 6     for their services as correcting translations.  We need anyhow a

 7     corrected translation.  We have to ask for that.  But if the interpreters

 8     could help us out for this very moment that would be appreciated.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  There's no word "green" in the B/C/S

10     translation.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the word "tajni" shouldn't be there.  The

12     word "green" should be there.

13             Mr. Stojanovic, is it clear enough for you at this moment?

14             Then the Prosecution is invited to take care that the new

15     accurate translation will be attached.

16             MR. SHIN:  Yes, of course, as soon as we can, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps it is possible to have the Dutch version

19     on the screen again, and Mr. Franken can explain the original Dutch text

20     to the Court and the parties.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  The translation from the Dutch

22     document to the English document is correct.  It's literally what it says

23     in Dutch:  A seriously intended, or meant, green assignment.

24             So that translation is correct.  It covers the -- the -- the

25     meaning of the order.

Page 10760

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You may.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I'm sorry, I read the word in the B/C/S.  There is no word

 6     "secret," so we clarified that.

 7             But let me ask you this:  Would you say that I was right, that

 8     before you received this order altering your mandate, did you work on any

 9     plans relating to such job of yours and such activities bearing in mind

10     that we have here the word "planned"?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.  We made some contingency plans, as it is

12     called.

13        Q.   Would you agree with me that two or three days prior to the 9th,

14     you worked on these plans alongside the civilian and military authorities

15     of Srebrenica?

16        A.   If you refer to a meeting I had with the Chief of Staff of the

17     28th Muslim Division, to my knowledge, that was earlier or earlier in the

18     period than two days prior to the 9th.  And there we had a discussion

19     with the Chief of Staff of the 28th Division, Mr. Becirovic, about what

20     would happen if the VRS would attack the enclave.  It's correct.  But to

21     say that we made side-by-side plans goes much too far.  It was a mutual

22     inquiry over what our point of views were, what would happen if the VRS

23     attacked.

24        Q.   Do you know that Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans and Mr. Boering

25     were also meeting with the military and civilian authorities of

Page 10761

 1     Srebrenica prior to these events to discuss the issue of what would

 2     happen in the event of the enclave being attacked?

 3        A.   I know of a meeting they had, but it was in the evening or night

 4     from the 10th to the 11th of July.

 5             And I doubt whether there was another meeting where they

 6     discussed technical military business with them.  I would have known

 7     about that.

 8        Q.   When the conflict escalated, the weapons that had been collected

 9     and stashed at certain points, were these weapons placed at the disposal

10     of the 28th Division of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11        A.   If you mean the weapons stored in the Weapons Collection Point on

12     the UN compound in Srebrenica, that is correct.  They were told that they

13     could pick up their weapons.

14        Q.   You no longer prevented them from seizing the weapons; is that

15     correct?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   I would kindly ask you to look at a document, which is a

18     stenogram of your hearing before the Parliamentary Commission of the

19     Netherlands concerning the Srebrenica investigation, dated the

20     11th of November, 2002.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is document

22     1D937.  Since the document has still not been uploaded into the system -

23     at least not its English translation - we have it in hard copy, and we

24     are ready to make it available to everyone.

25        Q.   I'd like to ask you the following.  Let's look together at the

Page 10762

 1     English page 7, the first paragraph.  And I would kindly ask for your

 2     assistance.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 7, the first paragraph.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any reason why, when it does exist, that

 5     it's not uploaded yet?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour.  I

 7     think there was a technical issue with our profile for uploading.  In my

 8     knowledge, there is an English translation.  And last time I recall we

 9     also had difficulty with the English translation.  However, for reasons

10     of efficiency and economy we prepared the hard copies, and by your leave,

11     I'd like to proceed.

12        Q.   Mr. Franken --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask, since when does the English version

14     exist?

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I recall, Your Honour,

16     last time, when we were leading a witness, we wanted some of the

17     translations excluded.  I believe we were told by the Prosecution that

18     there was an English translation, at least in its draft form.  However,

19     we were unable to locate it.  We have it in Dutch --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm greatly surprised that if we have a hard copy of

21     the an English translation here, which seems to be -- I don't know

22     whether it's complete or not, that it could not be electronically

23     uploaded into e-court.  That's still -- it's unclear.  Mr. Ivetic may

24     have a -- something to add to that.

25             MR. IVETIC:  I have some more information, Your Honour.

Page 10763

 1             It is a problem with the profile for our Case Manager to upload

 2     documents into e-court.  We can't upload documents in e-court as of

 3     yesterday afternoon.  The staff of the -- the support staff of the help

 4     desk have been informed and have been working on it.  We have had

 5     continuing problems within the last month with the profile sometimes not

 6     working, and that's the problem.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  It is important for us to know so that we can urge

 8     everyone involved as well to resolve this problem as soon as possible.

 9     So it is due to technical problems beyond your control that you were not

10     able to upload it.

11             One second, please.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll proceed at this moment, although you have not

14     answered yet my question, Mr. Stojanovic, when this translation was

15     available.  Whereas, I do understand uploading yesterday afternoon was

16     unsuccessful.  But may I take it that it existed for a far longer time?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Franken, I'd like to draw your attention to a particular

21     paragraph.  In the English version, it is the first paragraph on page 7.

22     You were asked a question and provided an answer.  It had to do with the

23     weapons that had been removed and then the BH Army regained control over

24     it.

25             Our predecessors told us that the zone had not been

Page 10764

 1     demilitarised.  There was a point where weapons were being collected.  A

 2     place where from the start the Bosnian fighters handed over their

 3     weapons.  I know that there were some 200 rifles --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, where are you reading?  The

 5     document is not paginated.  So I've counted seven pages.  I'm at that

 6     page.  I'm not quite sure I know where you are reading.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since it's nearly

 8     time for the break, I'll try to locate it exactly and tell you where we

 9     are precisely after the break so as not to lose time.  In e-court, before

10     we lost our ability to upload it, it was page 7, paragraph 1.  In any

11     case, we'll find it in hard copy as well.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break first.

13             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.

16             Could you tell us what Mr. Mladic said aloud?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Mladic said the following,

18     Miki, which is me, this was a very positive surprise on your part.

19     That's what I could hear.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic should refrain from any comment, positive

21     or negative, anything, during the testimony.  And I repeat this.  And

22     next time it may have consequences.

23             We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.

Page 10765

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, were you able to find the right

 4     pages?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  In English, it would be page?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It would be page 7 in our count.

 8     Perhaps it's better if you look for number 468, according to the

 9     pagination that we have.  So I'm quoting for the first passage by

10     Mr. Franken.  468.  Thank you.

11             By your leave, may I continue?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You may continue.  468 is, in the hard copy, page 6.

13     And -- on top of that page.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   468.  Mr. Franken, can we go on.  I'll read it out slowly and

17     then I'll put a question.

18             In answer to a question that was put to you, you say:

19             "Our predecessors told us that the area had not been truly

20     demilitarised.  There was a Weapons Collection Point which is a place

21     where, from the outset, Bosnian fighters could hand over their weapons.

22     I know that there were approximately 200 rifles.  There were also some

23     makeshift weapons and two T-55 tanks.  When we took over our duties from

24     DutchBat II, they told us that there were approximately between 4- and

25     5.000 pieces of weapons in the enclave alongside the people carrying

Page 10766

 1     them."

 2             My question is this:  After this many years, and after additional

 3     information you may have obtained after 2002, do you still stand by this

 4     assessment of the situation as it was upon your arrival in the enclave?

 5        A.   Yeah, as far as the actual numbers, we still stand to 4 and a

 6     half thousand light weapons.  And to make an additional remark, we saw in

 7     May that there appears a new type of AK47 Kalashnikovs in the area.  So I

 8     can't say whether that was this addition to the 4 and a half thousand or

 9     replacing old ones.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I will have a question regarding that fact.  But, for

11     the time being, could we please look at 1D934 in e-court.

12             Mr. Franken, it is a document originating from the

13     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We are uncertain of its date, but, according

14     to the text itself, in all likelihood, it was drafted following the

15     18th of January, 1995.  That is to say, after your arrival in the

16     enclave.

17             We have a list of weapons, that is to say, pieces and weapons

18     that were handed over.  For the most part, it tallies with your

19     assessment.  However, when you look at this, would you agree with me that

20     such an assertion is correct?

21        A.   If you mean that this covers the contents of the

22     Weapons Collection Point, as far as I know, that is correct, yes.

23        Q.   That is why I'm showing this document.  It was signed or drafted

24     by Naser Oric.

25             Can we go down the page in the English translation so as to be

Page 10767

 1     able to see the last paragraph.

 2             It reads, as they are informing the command of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina:

 4             "That UNPROFOR was told that all the weapons had been handed

 5     over.  Today, however, UNPROFOR representatives are aware that there are

 6     armed formations in Srebrenica which have a specific amount of weapons

 7     and ammunition at their disposal, and they are trying to disarm our

 8     formations and collect all the weapons and they frequently take weapons

 9     from individuals carrying them."

10             Does this tally, more or less, with what you included in your

11     assessment?

12        A.   It is correct.  It is consistent with my statement, yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will seek to

15     tender this stenogram report at a later stage because I will still be

16     relying on it when we reach another topic that I wanted to put questions

17     about.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We can already decide on admission.  There is

19     no need to wait until the very end.

20             MR. SHIN:  No objection, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D934 receives number D277,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D277 is admitted.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 10768

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can we have document 65 ter 19425 in e-court, please.

 3        Q.   Mr. Franken, it is an excerpt from an interview, or a

 4     conversation you had.  Before we look at paragraph 41 of the document, I

 5     wanted to ask you something about your penultimate answer.

 6             To the best of your recollection, at what point in time did

 7     DutchBat observe new equipment and new weapons possessed by members of

 8     the 28th Division?

 9        A.   That would have been the second half, end of May.

10        Q.   We're talking about 1995, just to be clear.

11        A.   Yes, we are talking about 1995.

12        Q.   Did you have information on how those weapons came into the

13     enclave?

14        A.   Not actual information.  In that period one of my observation

15     posts reported a possible helicopter flight by night.  We couldn't --

16     exactly what was in it we didn't actually see it.  It was an observation

17     by -- by the noise.  We tried to establish whether it landed, and if,

18     where, by patrols.  We found direct -- just hold, eastly of the village

19     of Slatina, and that is in the western part of the -- the enclave.  We

20     found a place in the woods over there that was cleared but we couldn't

21     find evidence of a helicopter landing or any signs that -- that stocks

22     were unloaded or whatever.  So I didn't have proof of.  I just checked

23     whether there was a helicopter, and if, if it had landed.  But we

24     couldn't establish that.  That's the only information I had about

25     visitors of the enclave, so to say.

Page 10769

 1        Q.   Please look at paragraph 41 of this statement, where, inter alia,

 2     you say, that you are certain that the ABiH received American weapons.

 3     The weapons were delivered in Tuzla and transported further afield from

 4     there.

 5             Do you stand by this part of your statement you provided?

 6        A.   Yeah, well, it's not a fact.  It is an assumption.  Because we

 7     heard there were landings of Hercules, American Hercules, on Tuzla

 8     airport and units, Dutch units there saw big amounts of new combat suits,

 9     et cetera, and some time later we saw American combat suits worn by the

10     28th Division.  So that is not a fact.  It is a result of analyst -- me

11     analysing some reports.  I don't have proof of that and I don't have

12     proof that they were American originated.  The suits were of the American

13     type, and I think that's a better statement than saying that it was

14     American equipment.

15        Q.   But if I'm not mistaken, it reads here that you were certain that

16     the weapons were American and that it was not the equipment.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If someone writes "Franken is certain," I am

18     uncertain what this document exactly is.  Could you assist us,

19     Mr. Stojanovic?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] According to my information,

21     this is a debriefing provided by Mr. Franken in the Netherlands on the

22     31st of March, 1999.  Perhaps it would be fair to ask Mr. Franken if he

23     can confirm --

24             THE WITNESS:  What do you want me to confirm exactly?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether this is a debriefing report.

Page 10770

 1             THE WITNESS:  As far as I can see, it is, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because it is without any heading.  It's

 3     without -- it only says "Interview with Franken."  And the date on it is

 4     31st of March, 1999.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Let's then proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will conclude with

 9     this document with this last question.

10        Q.   Did you have any reason to confirm at the time that the weapons

11     delivered were American?

12        A.   As I said before, it was an opinion, I said it, if you read the

13     text, it -- it looks like if I had actual evidence that the Americans

14     delivered weapons, and that is, in fact, incorrect.  As I said before, I

15     got reports so I combined them and took them and analysed them that,

16     through American means, there was equipment delivered to that -- in the

17     end, came into the enclave.  But, again, an opinion.  I don't have hard

18     proof of that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you about your knowledge of the arrival

20     and landing of planes with weapons at Tuzla airport.

21             What were your sources?  And where did you derive that knowledge

22     from?

23        A.   My sources were Dutch personnel working at Tuzla, at the -- at

24     the staff of Sector North-East.  And I derived that out of the phone

25     conversations with those -- this personnel.

Page 10771

 1        Q.   There was no reason for you to doubt that information; correct?

 2        A.   No.  The facts that has been delivered equipment, et cetera, on

 3     the Tuzla airport, I had no reason to doubt that.  But, again, I combined

 4     other things, et cetera.  And my opinion was, okay, I know now where

 5     those new combat suits, et cetera, come from.  But, again, it was a

 6     opinion, an assumption.  But for me personally with reasons.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I will conclude with the following question.

 8             Would you agree that it was at a time when the Security Council

 9     resolution was still in place on the prohibition of weapons being

10     delivered in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   As far as I know, yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this is a

14     good time to seek to tender this document into evidence although I will

15     rely on it in the continuation of my examination.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin.

17             MR. SHIN:  No objections, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19425 receives number D278,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             Mr. Stojanovic, I take it that if you do not make a selection out

23     of this document that you consider the whole of the content to be in

24     evidence.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document has

Page 10772

 1     five pages in total, and I will rely on another portion of it.  So it

 2     seems it would be useful to admit it as a whole.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin.

 4             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry.  Just to a point of clarification.

 5             In the English at least it's only three pages in total, and to

 6     the extent it matters, the Prosecution would support the entirety of the

 7     document to go in.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the original is -- let me see.  I haven't

 9     looked at it yet.  Yes, the original is in Dutch, apparently.  I don't

10     see a B/C/S translation.  Is there any, Mr. Stojanovic?  The Dutch

11     version also in e-court at least is three pages only --

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and -- yes.  But in e-court we have only an

14     original and an English translation.  So I don't know where five pages

15     come from.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in total, it has

17     43 points that were numbered.  So it's only a matter of the number of

18     pages.  It is a text ranging from point 1 to point 43, in all three

19     languages.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My problem is, in e-court, there's no B/C/S

21     version.  At least not in my e-court.  But in Madam Registrar's e-court,

22     there's no B/C/S version either.

23             So if you're referring to a B/C/S translation, I think it would

24     be appropriate to have it in e-court.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we'll

Page 10773

 1     certainly do so.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Franken, may I switch topics now.  I would like to ask you

 3     something about demilitarisation.  My question is this:  Going about your

 4     duties that you have described, did you have information that people in

 5     the enclave were not only armed but also that members of the

 6     28th Division carried out offensive combat operations outside the enclave

 7     deep into the territory held by the VRS?

 8        A.   Yes.  Actually there were two occasions reported to me of ABiH

 9     actions in VRS territory.

10        Q.   Were you told that on those occasions there were casualties

11     incurred by the Army of Republika Srpska?

12        A.   One of the occasions was a Muslim action north-west of the

13     enclave.  I was not told whether there were casualties or an amount --

14     yeah, I was told there were casualties by Major Nikolic - Major Nikolic

15     being the liaison of the Bratunac Brigade - but not how much.

16             And the second occasion was an action of the ABiH in the area

17     between the enclave of Srebrenica and Zepa, in that area, and he told me

18     then there has been an ambush and six or seven VRS members were killed in

19     that ambush, and the ambush was laid by forces of the ABiH.  Further

20     there were all kinds of rumours but never reports and actual knowledge or

21     location or whatever.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, you may remain seated.  If there's any

23     need to consult, you have an opportunity.

24             Please proceed.

25             I think, Mr. Ivetic, that Mr. Mladic would -- briefly would like

Page 10774

 1     to consult.  And if he keeps his voice at low volume, you have an

 2     opportunity to briefly ...

 3             Meanwhile, we can continue, Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Franken, can you tell me, did you know that, due to the

 6     offensive actions carried out by the 28th Division from the enclave,

 7     General Smith filed protests with the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 8     requesting that they terminate such a practice?

 9        A.   I did not know, but we reported that too in the lines.  So it is

10     obvious that they would have taken some action.

11        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  Can we now look?

12        A.   Sorry for remark.  Just for the record, we protested that with

13     the staff of the 28th Division as well as soon as we got the reports of

14     those two incidents.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now have 65 ter document 17890 in e-court.

16             Mr. Franken, you may not have had an opportunity to see this

17     document.  I would kindly ask to you look at it now and to tell me

18     whether you are aware and did you ever had a chance after the events to

19     see this document, which is signed - can we have the next page, please -

20     by Brigadier-General Mr. Nicolai.  It's dated the 26th of June.  And I'm

21     going to read what it says:

22             "However, I have to inform you that the commanding officer of

23     DutchBat, during the last few weeks, several times had to warn your

24     troops in the enclave to refrain -- restrain from attacks outside the

25     Safe Area.

Page 10775

 1             "As you will understand, these kinds of attacks cause responses

 2     which endanger the safety of the civilian population in the Safe Area and

 3     make it very difficult for UNPROFOR to protect the Safe Area in an

 4     appropriate way.

 5             "I have to urge you to issue orders to your troops to restrain

 6     from this kind of actions."

 7             Does this document actually confirm what you said, that this kind

 8     of conduct was customary on the part of the 28th Division?

 9        A.   Well, as I said, I had two reports, a lot of rumours and we even

10     reacted on rumours to warn the 28th Division, so it is consistent with --

11     with what I said before and with the actual situation.

12        Q.   But the key reason why I'm asking you is -- by looking at this

13     document is, having in mind that you were in the middle of all these

14     happenings and you were on the ground, would you agree that this kind of

15     behaviour of the 28th Division was in contravention to the law and the

16     obligations relating to demilitarisation?

17        A.   Absolutely.  That's correct.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document

19     into evidence, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I see there's an English version in

21     e-court.  There's no B/C/S version.

22             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, Ms. Stewart has just confirmed that

23     there is a B/C/S version and it's not in e-court at this stage.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, there's no objection against admission.

25             MR. SHIN:  No objection to the admission.  We can assist with

Page 10776

 1     getting the B/C/S version uploaded.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  If the translation exists already, then I think

 3     there is no reason to MFI.  We can just admit in the expectation that the

 4     B/C/S version will be uploaded soon.

 5             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 17890 receives number D279,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D279 is admitted into evidence.

 9             You may continue, Mr. Stojanovic.  But perhaps wait for a second.

10             Yes, we didn't take the pauses we have to take.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Can we now have document D17 in e-court.

14        Q.   It's another document, Mr. Franken, produced by the

15     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16             While we are waiting for it to be uploaded, I'm going to ask you

17     just a couple of questions.

18             Do you know that at one point during those months, a helicopter

19     fell in the area of Zepa, and this helicopter was flying en route to the

20     enclaves.

21        A.   I know there was a rumour that a helicopter with parts of the

22     staff of the 28th Division in it was down in the area somewhere, not

23     within our enclave.  But I didn't know that it was in Zepa.  But that was

24     a rumour.  I didn't get reports on the UN line or whatever.

25        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to see Ramiz Becirovic and to ask him

Page 10777

 1     whether he was on board that helicopter when it fell down?

 2        A.   We had that opportunity, of course.  And, as far as I know, not

 3     personally but by our liaison, Major Boering, asked him about that

 4     helicopter.  And, as far as I recollect, he denied that, that things like

 5     that happened.

 6        Q.   But you would agree that he had some very visible injuries and

 7     that he had problems with the movement.

 8        A.   That's correct, sure.  In that same period, Mr. Becirovic asked

 9     me whether he could be treated in our hospital because he had some --

10     some physical problems, and then he said the cause was that he had a

11     fight with the husband of a lady he obviously liked very much.  A story

12     like that.  So he didn't give the cause that it would have been from the

13     helicopter crash but he had some physical problems and couldn't be

14     treated in the MSF hospital, or in the civil hospital.  I consented that.

15     He has been treated in our hospital.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask for one point of clarification.

18             Why if you have a fight with the husband of another lady, why

19     can't you be treated in a civilian hospital?  Why did you accept him to

20     be treated by UNPROFOR staff?

21             THE WITNESS:  As far as I know, I don't know the medical details,

22     but as far as I know, he had to be X-rayed with -- on certain places, and

23     hospital in Srebrenica didn't have that kind of X-ray equipment.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  There was a technical explanation for it --

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

Page 10778

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Purely.  Thank you.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   The activities that you heard of taking place outside the enclave

 4     on -- in the territory of the VRS and carried out by the 28th Division,

 5     did they have any connection with the order demanding a more active

 6     participation of the 28th Division in order to ease the pressure on the

 7     Sarajevo theatre of war by tying up the troops of the -- the

 8     Army of Republika Srpska?

 9        A.   Of course, I didn't have any knowledge of an order they get --

10     the 28th Division got.  But it -- it is a possibility.  It is a normally

11     military way to ease pressure on other locations by -- by getting

12     offensive on -- in a different area in general.  But then again, I never

13     read that order.  I didn't have knowledge of the fact that they got that

14     order.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please now look at the document in front of

16     you and that is the reason I'm asking you this.

17             Look at point 2 relating to a report submitted by the Command of

18     the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Actually, the one

19     received by them from the 28th Division, on 23rd June 1995.  There is a

20     description of the action takens -- taken deep in the VRS territory.  And

21     under item 2, it says, and I quote:

22             "In order to prevent enemy forces from sending additional forces

23     from the Srebrenica and Zepa areas to the Sarajevo theatre, two acts of

24     sabotage were carried out."

25             And here they explain and describe the actions and state the

Page 10779

 1     number, as they put it, of Chetniks killed.

 2             Does this document refresh your memory by you having received

 3     information at the time that these actions were carried out against

 4     villages, Osmace and Bijelo Stijenje near Koprivno?

 5        A.   Well, I more or less know the area but I don't know the villages,

 6     exactly where they were or where they are that you mentioned.  But the

 7     statement under number 2 could cope with the report I got from

 8     Major Nikolic concerning that ambush and six or seven of his soldiers

 9     killed.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Look at point 3 now where they repeat, once again,

11     that in order to divert the forces from the Sarajevo theatre and with a

12     view to stretching them out towards Srebrenica and Zepa on the

13     26th of June, and this corresponds with a letter sent by General Nicolai

14     to the BH Army commander, if you remember, several sabotage actions were

15     taken deep into the occupied territory, 20 to 40 kilometres, covering the

16     municipalities of Han Pijesak and Vlasenica and also mentioned are the

17     village of Visnjica, Crna Rijeka sector, and Vrani Kamen feature.  And

18     then it goes on to say in the second paragraph after this one, which is

19     the last paragraph in the English version, it says that:

20             "According to our estimate, more than 40 Chetniks were killed,

21     although we have unconfirmed information that the aggressor lost 71

22     soldiers."

23             My question is the names of Visnjica, Crna Rijeka, and

24     Vrani Kamen are the names that can jog your memory to the effect that

25     these actions actually took place in those specific areas?

Page 10780

 1        A.   If I recollect well, Visnjica was that north-west of the enclave,

 2     a village, more or less, west, north-west there.  But within the vicinity

 3     of the -- of the -- of the enclave at least, and that could refer or be

 4     consistent with the report Major Nikolic gave me about that action on a

 5     village over there.  For the rest, I can't confirm that it actually

 6     happened or -- or -- that something happened because I didn't get

 7     reports.  Generally, it was far out of our line of sight of -- line of

 8     observation.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, is there any dispute about the matters we

10     have discussed over the last five minutes?

11             MR. SHIN:  If I could just have a moment to consult,

12     Your Honours.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can just simply say no.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, why are we spending -- I take it

15     that if you would have presented this for the bar table and if you would

16     have agreed with the Prosecution that these operations had taken place

17     and were reported at the time, then why bother the witness who is not a

18     personal witness of it?  Why bother him with this?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the main reason I'm

20     addressing this issue is the information that the DutchBat had at the

21     time, in relation to the violation of the demilitarised zone, and without

22     disputing the fact that Visnjica was attacked but the number of

23     casualties is in dispute.  My intention was to have a confirmation, if

24     you allow me.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then ask the witness about those matters which

Page 10781

 1     apparently you consider relevant to be clarified, rather than what you

 2     did.

 3             Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Simply I can remind Mr. Stojanovic and perhaps

 5     the Court that it was part of the opening statement that there was a

 6     policy of the BiH to attack outside of the enclave to tie down Serb

 7     troops from going to Sarajevo.  That's part of our case, part of

 8     Mr. Butler's case.  But it is my understanding that the Defence does ask

 9     this testing the credibility of the various parties involved, and that is

10     where it is normally brought up, but it can be overdone.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's nice to hear your explanation why

12     Mr. Stojanovic puts these questions, but that's --

13             My question was whether we are dealing with any matter which is

14     in dispute.  Apparently it's not.  Mr. Stojanovic, it's not the first

15     time that the Chamber draws the attention to such a fact.

16             Please proceed.  Preferably with a matter which is in dispute.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll certainly do that.

18        Q.   Let me just finish with this document, Mr. Franken.  The name

19     Crna Rijeka mentioned in the document are you aware that that was the

20     place where the command of the Main Staff of the VRS was located?

21        A.   No, that name doesn't ring any bell with me.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

24     I'd like a brief consultation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Meanwhile, I might use the time for a

Page 10782

 1     different matter.

 2             I do understand that there is a revised translation for P1421.

 3     The Chamber instructs Madam Registrar to replace the old one by the new

 4     one.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   Since this document is already in evidence, let me just ask you

 8     one thing, if you know, Mr. Franken.

 9             Did you have information who was one board of the helicopter that

10     was shot down and whether there were any foreign nationals among them?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   When you say "no," you mean you didn't have any information?  Did

13     I understand you correctly?

14        A.   Yeah, you understood me correctly.  I didn't have any information

15     about the details.

16        Q.   I'd like to ask you something about something that you discuss in

17     paragraph 20 of your amalgamated statement, which is P1417.

18     Paragraph 20.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first -- my apologies for intervening.

20             Earlier, Mr. Stojanovic, your questions were about two

21     helicopters.  One which may have been there, but we don't know.  And the

22     other one which fell down.  Now, in your last question, you said it was

23     shot down.

24             And has the witness any knowledge about that helicopter having

25     been shot down?

Page 10783

 1             THE WITNESS:  No, I don't have any knowledge of the cause of the

 2     coming down of that helicopter, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apparently you have reasons to believe,

 4     Mr. Stojanovic, although not in evidence, that it was shot down.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   As I said, I'd like to ask you something about paragraph 20 of

 8     your amalgamated statement.

 9             Can you tell us, were you involved, directly or indirectly, in

10     the negotiations between the Serb and Muslim sides relating to the

11     supplies of food and other staples to the enclave, as of January 1995?

12        A.   Of course being DCO I was involved, but not personally.  So the

13     answer is:  Indirectly, I was involved.

14        Q.   The Serbian side was prepared to supply food to the enclave on

15     economic principles; is that correct?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   The authorities of the enclave at one point, rejected this method

18     of co-operation and trade.

19        A.   That is correct as well.

20        Q.   In your mind, what was the reason for their rejection of ensuring

21     regular supply of the enclave on business principles?  Regular supply of

22     food and other staples?

23        A.   I never got a reason.  Of course, we asked him for it.  And if

24     you ask, in my mind, or in my opinion, information we got from other

25     sources indicated that the staff of the 28th Division opposed and that

Page 10784

 1     source said that they were themselves involved in the black market and

 2     didn't want -- yeah, interference with that.  But, again, it's one

 3     source, civil source, that told me that, not confirmed.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Before the break, let us just focus on the topic of

 5     the disarming of the observation posts, UNPROFOR observation posts.

 6             Is it true that at one point you received information that the

 7     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina weren't allowing members of the DutchBat to

 8     leave their observation posts?

 9        A.   That's correct.  Not only at one point.  At many points, they

10     didn't allow us to move the way we wanted.

11        Q.   Was that conduct also contrary to the obligations undertaken by

12     the warring parties with respect to the freedom of movement?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Was that the reason why you, yourself, suggested to the crews at

15     the observation posts not to risk their lives, but, nevertheless, say

16     there and hand over their weapons to the Army of Republika Srpska?

17        A.   That was not the real reason.  In fact, the reason was, as you

18     probably know, we had a casualty, soldier, van Renssen, shot by the ABiH.

19     He was a part of the crew of OP Foxtrot retreating from OP Foxtrot, and

20     by experience, I knew that local commanders of the ABiH had their own

21     policies and their own way of acting with -- in spite of what the

22     division said, and since I was in a conflict with an aggressor, being the

23     VRS, and another party locally being just as aggressive towards -- as the

24     VRS, I ordered my soldiers to prevent them from being shot from

25     apparently friendly troops to, Okay, if you don't have an agreement with

Page 10785

 1     the local BiH commanders, so not with the 28th Division, the local

 2     commander, about retreating, et cetera, then stay on your spot, and if

 3     you are surrounded by the VRS, and they want that, then just surrender to

 4     the VRS.  That's the real reason why I said that, why I ordered them to

 5     stay on, if there was no consent with the local BiH commander.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise.  I have been waiting for interpretation

 7     and it took a while.

 8             How did the VRS treat members of DutchBat who surrendered to the

 9     VRS at these observation points?

10        A.   As far as I know, they treated them in conformity with the rules

11     for that.  They treated them correctly.

12        Q.   Thank you.  None of them was injured or hurt in any other way;

13     correct?

14        A.   Not after they were taken POW by the VRS.

15        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement --

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we have in

17     e-court 65 ter document 19423.  19423.

18        Q.   Again, it is an excerpt from an interview with then-Major Franken

19     at Pleso base on the 22nd of July, 1995, as you can see in the heading.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go to page 2 in the

21     English, please.  The second page in the B/C/S as well.  Thank you.  One

22     more page in the B/C/S, the next page.

23             One more page in the English, please.  Thank you.  The second

24     paragraph.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, we are now on the right page, but we

Page 10786

 1     shouldn't start -- it's time for a break.  We shouldn't start the

 2     questions now.  Perhaps we deal with that after the break.

 3             Could the witness already follow the usher.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, as far as timing is concerned, are

 7     you on track?  I think you asked for three and a half hours.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I think I'll

 9     be even shorter than that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break, and we'll resume at

11     20 minutes to 2.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 1.21 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I gave instructions to the Registrar in relation to

17     the translation of P1421, which, by the way, is not there yet, but

18     Madam Registrar is instructed to attach it.  Now I'd also like to

19     instruct Madam Registrar that the translation as uploaded until now of

20     D279 will be replaced, or that it can be attached, that is, a translation

21     which is already there but was not yet in e-court.  P279 was already

22     admitted into evidence.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Franken, before the break, I asked you to look at paragraph 2

Page 10787

 1     of the document.  On the 22nd of July, 1995, when describing the fall of

 2     observation points, you said:

 3             "I instructed them to take as much equipment as possible with

 4     them.  The BH Army was notified of their withdrawal from the positions

 5     but it seems that their internal system of reporting was very poor

 6     because that is when the incident with van Renssen took place.  It is

 7     clear that the BH Army directly opened fire on the observation post from

 8     which the crew with withdrawing (see also OPs K, D, U and S)."

 9             I'm asking you the following:  Which OPs did the BH Army open

10     fire at in the course of those few days?  Are those the OPs referred to

11     in this part of your statement?

12        A.   I see.  As I recollect the BiH opened fire on the crew of

13     OP Delta and then, after that, they blocked them and didn't allow them to

14     take a new position but wanted them amongst the BiH -- in the middle of

15     the BiH position.  If I recollect correctly, Sierra came under fire from

16     a direction that we concluded must have been the BiH because there was no

17     VRS elements in that area at that time as far as we know.  And it

18     happened also at OP Mike, and that was an observation post in the

19     north-western part of the enclave.

20        Q.   Was it also one of the reasons why you said that the crews of

21     these OPs should surrender to the VRS and to take with them as many

22     possessions and as much equipment along as possible, as is stated here?

23        A.   Well, never ordered them to surrender to the VRS.  There were

24     conditions for that surrender.  That was then when the ABiH withdrew

25     without notification and they were in the open.  And in the open, I mean

Page 10788

 1     they were surrounded by the VRS.  And, yes, I ordered them, as I

 2     recollect well, to take as much equipment along as possible.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Can I seek clarification on your matter.

 4             I gained the impression, perhaps wrong, from previous testimony

 5     that the incident with Mr. Van Renssen occurred when the crew of the

 6     observation post withdrew from the observation post in the direction of

 7     the -- the base, of the Potocari --  now I here read in this document:

 8             "The BSA entered the OP and requested that the personnel go in

 9     the direction of the BSA-controlled area.

10             "Which, I instructed to take with them much as much material and

11     possessions as possible.  The BH Army was informed of the withdrawal ...

12     but it seems that their internal communications were poor ..."

13             I gained impression again, perhaps wrong, that it was only after

14     the incident with Mr. van Renssen that you withdrew in the directions of

15     the BSA positions, but then I'm a bit puzzled by when you withdrew in the

16     direction of the BSA-controlled area, that you are still -- or at least

17     Mr. van Renssen was still a victim of BiH shooting.

18             THE WITNESS:  Let me try to clarify that, Your Honour.

19             After van Renssen was killed by the ABiH during the withdrawal,

20     the move that was a consequence of the leaving OP Foxtrot, then the

21     guide-line or the order came to our OPs.  As I said before, if you find

22     yourself surrounded, no, withdrawal with the ABiH or not with but at the

23     same moment as the ABiH withdraws from its defensive positions left and

24     right of you, only if the local Muslim commander consents in it.  Why?  I

25     wanted to prevent that another Muslim soldier shot one of my soldiers.

Page 10789

 1             If you find yourself surrounded by VRS, then surrender to them

 2     and take as much equipment as possible.

 3             Is that -- does that answer your -- your question?  We never

 4     withdrew in the direction of the VRS.  We stayed static until the VRS

 5     took over the OP.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Again, it's not entirely clear to me.  What we

 7     have on our screen at this moment is BSA fire intensified.  You gave --

 8     permission was given for the post to be abandoned during a break in

 9     shooting, but suddenly a T-55 tank appeared and the men remained in the

10     OP.

11             This T-55 tank was whose tank?

12             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.  That was the a tank of the VRS, sir.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Of the VRS.

14             THE WITNESS:  And this story is only applicable to the events of

15     OP Foxtrot.  After van Renssen was killed --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just --

17             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] to read there.  Then it

19     continues, the BSA entered the OP and requested that the personnel go in

20     the direction of the BSA-controlled area, which is opposite to going back

21     to the bases.

22             THE WITNESS:  Correct.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And, nevertheless, which direction did the crew then

24     go?  Did they follow this request and did they go in the direction of the

25     BSA-controlled area?

Page 10790

 1             THE WITNESS:  They did not follow that request.  They demanded to

 2     go back to their base, which was consented by the VRS at that point and

 3     then the thing with van Renssen happened when they crossed an ABiH

 4     position.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now this completes the story.  There were some

 6     elements missing there at this moment, but it has been clarified.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             THE WITNESS:  You're welcome, sir.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to move to

11     another topic which has to do with document P1143.  Can we, please, have

12     it in e-court.

13             Your Honours, for the record, I will rely on the last document

14     once more, although I could tender it now if you agree with it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, once you've used it, if you -- let's have it.

16     Let's try to avoid any back-log in tendering.

17             MR. SHIN:  No objections in principle, Your Honours.  We do note

18     that as the document increase we may at some point need to focus on

19     specific portions rather than have the entirety come in.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, of course, once a document is in, in its

21     entirety, it is available as a source of evidence for the Chamber, and we

22     will treat it that way.  And I think I pointed at that already before.

23             Madam Registrar, it's number would be ...

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19423 receives number D280,

25     Your Honours.

Page 10791

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D280 is admitted into evidence.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Franken, before you is a letter sent by the DutchBat

 5     commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, dated the 12th of July.

 6             We have a description of his meetings with General Mladic on the

 7     11th and 12th of July.

 8             Can we look at paragraph 3, please, which reads:

 9             "During the first meeting, I have been accused of everything,

10     what happened today, as being the commanding officer of DutchBat.  Again,

11     he demanded that there will be no more air strikes and CAS any longer.

12     If air strikes or the CAS should occur or are continued, the Potocari

13     compound with DutchBat members and about 2.500 refugees in it and about

14     15.000 refugees in the direct vicinity of it will suffer shelling."

15             I'd like to ask you the following first:  Did you have any direct

16     knowledge of such threats or warnings being issued to the DutchBat

17     commander at the first meeting, as is stated here?

18        A.   As I recollect well, that after two F-16s delivered close air

19     support on the afternoon of the 11th we got by radio a message, and by

20     radio the VRS used one of our armoured personnel carriers and one of our

21     NCOs --

22        Q.   I apologise.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, is there any problem with the

24     audio for Mr. Mladic?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a problem too.

Page 10792

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we should fix that first.  Problem solved?

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Could we kindly ask Mr. Franken to repeat his answer.

 4        A.   Sure.  After there was actual close air support in the area of

 5     the city of Srebrenica on the early afternoon of 11 July, we got a

 6     message by radio and used -- one of the radios of the -- our APCs in the

 7     hands of the VRS and it was read that message or spoken that message by

 8     one of my POW NCOs that close air support had to stop immediately,

 9     otherwise the area of the compound and the -- the refugees would be

10     shelled and my 55 POWs would be killed if the close air support didn't

11     stop.

12             So the answer is, or your question, I did have direct knowledge

13     of such threats.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Although not at that first meeting but through other

15     means, if I understand you well.

16             THE WITNESS:  That was before the first meeting took place,

17     Your Honour.  The first meeting was in the evening and this message came

18     in the afternoon of the 11th shortly after those two planes did deliver

19     some close air support.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, the question was about threats expressed

21     during the meeting, but you -- you have --

22             THE WITNESS:  Oh.  Sorry.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No problem.

24             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 10793

 1        Q.   Let us look together at some segments of the first meeting held

 2     at the Fontana hotel.

 3             Mr. Franken, we have a full transcript of that meeting, and I

 4     tried to ascertain whether everything that was said was recorded

 5     properly.

 6             Did Mr. Karremans at any point tell you that at the meeting there

 7     were such threats issued, as specified in this letter?

 8        A.   He told me about threats and a threatening situation when he did

 9     debrief me when he came back to the compound, that's correct.  But,

10     again, I wasn't present, so I can't testify that it was literally what

11     was said or ...

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look together, with your

14     leave, Your Honour -- when I read the entire transcript I singled out

15     certain parts which may be characteristic of that topic.  To that end

16     could we please look at P1, which is an excerpt --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps you already mention it and then I've

18     one question for you.

19             You said you have a full transcript of that meeting.  Now I have

20     a vague recollection that at least one of these meetings was not fully

21     recorded.  Do you mean that you have a full transcript of what was

22     recorded, or would you say that it was recorded from beginning to end and

23     we have a full transcript also of this first meeting?  Just my

24     recollection about which of the meetings was not entirely recorded fails

25     me.

Page 10794

 1             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Your Honour, that was also a point that the

 2     Prosecution wanted to say, that there were several -- there was evidence

 3     about the extent of recording of these meetings, so that would be a very

 4     important point of clarification.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. -- if you could point in the evidence to

 6     where it is said that the recording and the transcript, therefore, fully

 7     covers the meeting, then I would appreciate if you could assist me.

 8             But, meanwhile, that is no reason to pay specific attention to

 9     specific portions that were recorded and transcribed.  So you may proceed

10     but you are invited to assist the Chamber.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  We have a

12     full transcript of what was recorded by camera at the first meeting.  So

13     that's an answer to your question.

14             Now, as to whether the first meeting was recorded in its

15     entirety, because we did have testimony about whether everything was

16     recorded at that and the second and third meetings, in any case, I will

17     rely on whatever I have.  That is why I would ask to look at an excerpt

18     from the first meeting at the Fontana hotel with the witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin is on his feet.

20             MR. SHIN:  Apologies to counsel, Your Honours.  Just one point,

21     it's -- it's not clear from the transcript whether my colleague is

22     contesting whether there is a full transcript -- whether the full meeting

23     was recorded or not.  There has been evidence of this, and if that

24     witness was going to be challenged, that should probably have happened

25     then.

Page 10795

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, we rely on the evidence as to

 2     whether everything was recorded yes or no.  I think that what was

 3     recorded was transcribed.

 4             And, Mr. Stojanovic, I did not understand the position of Defence

 5     to be that every single part of that meeting was recorded but that you

 6     have to limit yourselves to those portions that were recorded.

 7             Is that well understood?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.

 9             In that regard, I wanted to say that Mr. Karremans will be the

10     person competent to provide such answers.  Can we look at the excerpt

11     P004795.

12             For reasons of economy I want to skip the excerpt that I referred

13     to Ms. Stewart at the beginning, and it is 004745 which is at 00 hours,

14     49 minutes, 29 seconds.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, is it P004795 or is it 004745?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It should be P1147.  According

17     to my notes.  P1147.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             "... you don't need to think.

20             "Of this one at the hotel.

21             "They are here at the hotel.

22             "If you keep bombing, they won't spend time ...

23             "How do you see the result, the resolution of the situation?

24             "If I may say something about that.  It's not the ... maybe not

25     the same as what they will say in Sarajevo ... because they are the

Page 10796

 1     policy-makers, in my opinion, the enclaves will be ended.  And that for

 2     the sake of the population, and not for the sake of the BiH, I should

 3     assist the population as much as possible, get out of the enclave to -- I

 4     don't know where they'd like to go.  I think that most of them would like

 5     to go to Tuzla.  Been there once, three months ago."

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Let us look at

 7     another excerpt of the same recording from 50:19 to 51:34, which is again

 8     Mr. Mladic speaking.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             "He is one of those who destroyed our dream ... Bosnian Muslims

11     because we were happy country, happy populations, and we had a very good

12     life.  Until Muslims didn't ... at the moment when I was in front of the

13     municipality building in Srebrenica -- municipality of Srebrenica ... I

14     took this with me.  Your troops opened fire, and fired at me personally.

15              "I don't know about that.  But, if that is the case, I would

16     like to apologise for that as a human being and as a military.

17     Normally -- because normally we don't shoot any generals."

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The next address by

19     General Mladic is at --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you should state first where you

21     stopped.  It's now at 51:40:8.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  51:40, for

23     the record.

24             We will continue at 52:09 to 53:52, where again General Mladic is

25     speaking.

Page 10797

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2              "No, I've been in Lebanon in 1979 as a company commander.  I've

 3     been in Zagreb in 1991 during the war in Croatia and Slovenia.

 4              "So you really came here ...

 5              "This is my first war in my career.  And this is my country.

 6              "I understand.

 7              "And it's not yours.  And there's no reason for your APC to

 8     shoot in my correction.

 9             "Again --

10             "I'm not shooting in Holland.

11             "What are we going to do?

12             "I've been asked by General Nicolai, not knowing that I should

13     met you here in Bratunac.

14              "Sorry.

15              "I've been asked by Nicolai to ask release for the civilian

16     population ..."

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This portion ends at 53:52, if I

18     see it correctly.

19             And the finally clip starts at 59:10.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I don't know how much time that will

21     take but we are at a time when we have to adjourn.  If you say it's one

22     minute, then perhaps we can look at it.  If it's more than three minutes

23     then we should not.

24             And the witness is invited to carefully look so he can answer

25     questions about it tomorrow.

Page 10798

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, it's a little

 2     bit more than three minutes, so I will stop here, with your leave, and

 3     we'll continue with that.  And that will be followed.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, first of all, I'd like to ask the usher

 5     to escort the witness out of the courtroom but not until I've instructed

 6     you, Mr. Franken, that you should not speak or communicate in whatever

 7     way with whomever about your testimony, whether that is testify you've

 8     given today or whether that's testimony still to it be given tomorrow.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you were -- how much time would you

13     still need tomorrow?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I reckon that I

15     can finish within an hour tomorrow.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So then the first session tomorrow, you can use.

17             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the

18     8th of May, 2013, in this same courtroom, III, at 9.30 in the morning.

19                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of May,

21                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.