Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10984

 1                           Friday, 10 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             There are no preliminaries, if I understand well.  We have to

12     briefly move into closed session for the witness to enter the courtroom,

13     but I already announce that for the remainder of the testimony of this

14     witness, Judge Moloto will be acting Presiding Judge, because I've not

15     attended the beginning of the testimony of that witness.

16             Could we turn into closed session, in order to have the witness

17     enter the courtroom.

18                           [Closed session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.


Page 10985

 1             Good morning, Witness RM297.  Just to remind you that you're

 2     still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your

 3     testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the

 4     truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  RM297 [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you hear me in the language you understand,

 8     Witness?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Judge, I always tell the

10     truth, otherwise I say nothing at all.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  I'm very happy to hear that.

12             Mr. Lukic, according to our records, you're left with 48 minutes.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, you may proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   As you could hear, we haven't got much left.  I'd like to start

20     with a number of questions which have to do with the 11th, the

21     12th of July, 1995.  One of your brothers went to Susnjari with you;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   The other brother was handicapped and he went to Potocari.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10986

 1        Q.   He was evacuated from Potocari to Kladanj, and he is still alive

 2     today.

 3        A.   Yes.  And, luckily enough, he is no longer handicapped.  He was

 4     never wounded, but he had sciatica.

 5        Q.   Could we please have in e-court P1132.  It is the book compiled

 6     by Mr. Ruez, which you have been shown previously.

 7             We need page 130.  131.  It is the school in Orahovac.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   When you were there with Mr. Ruez in this room --

10        A.   Yes.  And the closets were there when we were there.

11        Q.   Is it true that you could not recall the basketball equipment

12     being mounted on the walls at the time of your detention?

13        A.   Correct.  I couldn't remember.

14        Q.   Can we have P1444 next.  You were shown this document yesterday.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document is under seal, Your Honours.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Just then not to be broadcasted.

17             Should we go to the private session?

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10987











11 Page 10987 redacted. Private session.















Page 10988

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you,

13     Madam Registrar.

14             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] While you resided in Srebrenica, you said that

17     you worked the land.  Is it true that the land you worked on belonged to

18     a Serb?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Was that Serb still in Srebrenica?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   While you were in Srebrenica, were there any Serbs?

23        A.   A few.  And they were looking for a way out.  I don't know

24     whether they evacuated by themselves or if they were evacuated by the

25     Red Cross though.

Page 10989

 1        Q.   Do you know of the fate of the Serbs who lived in Srebrenica

 2     municipality; for example in the villages of Brezani, Turije, Tegari,

 3     Ratkovici, Fakovici, Kravica?

 4        A.   All that happened before my village fell and before I arrived in

 5     Srebrenica.  I don't know what happened there.

 6        Q.   Is it true that when you were in Srebrenica, in the villages I

 7     just mentioned, there were no longer any Serbs?

 8        A.   I don't know what to say.  I don't know.

 9             As for the town of Srebrenica and the land where we planted our

10     crops, I didn't go further afield.  I really don't know.  Even today I

11     don't know where Fakovici or Brezani or Turije is.  If you believe me, I

12     really don't know.

13        Q.   You say that you stood guard at some point in time.

14        A.   Yes.  In my village where I lived.

15        Q.   What about Srebrenica?

16        A.   No.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10990

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             Yes, Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   While in military service, what weapon were you issued with?

16        A.   It was an RBN.

17        Q.   Do you know if hand-held rocket-launchers existed in Srebrenica

18     and who used them at the time when you were there?

19        A.   Mr. Lukic, when you have a witness from Srebrenica, you ask them.

20     When I arrived I didn't have any weapons.  Nobody ever asked them about

21     weapons.  We were not in a position to see any weapons, so I haven't a

22     clue.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Mladic, you've been making comments and this

24     is the first time this morning.  I ask you to please stop that, okay?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10991

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  These were all the questions that I had prepared

 2     for you.

 3        A.   I thank you as well.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  Before you sit down,

 5     Mr. Lukic.  Yesterday you attempted to tender 1D961.  And then because

 6     you then wanted to tendered it with its attachments, and this witness

 7     could not answer any question from the attachments you ended up not doing

 8     anything about it.

 9             Are you not tendering 961?  The photo only, not the attachments.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I think that in that attachment he confirmed there is

11     Albanian woman, Elfete Veseli, who killed that guy.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You'll have to refer me to the transcript.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I don't have it in front of me, but I --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I think once you've found the transcript you

15     can --

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, can we MFI it then and I can come back.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ms. Hochhauser.

18             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  [Microphone not activated]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the --

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I would just put my objection at this point on

21     the record not to the photograph which he identified but to the attached

22     article.  I think the witness gave all of the information that he had

23     personal knowledge of and the article contains -- it's a lengthy article

24     of information that he did not attest or affirm.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's my recollection, and that's why I'm asking

Page 10992

 1     Mr. Lukic to tell us where the witness testified on the attachments.  My

 2     recollection says he didn't say a word about the attachments.  In fact,

 3     you didn't ask him questions, because you got an objection.  When you

 4     tried to ask the questions you got an objection and then you moved on.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Can I try to clarify that with the witness now?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, I think you've got to go back to the

 7     transcript of yesterday.  And for now the Chamber is prepared to admitted

 8     1D961, and you can deal with the attachments once you have found the

 9     transcript for tomorrow.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you're ready, Madam Registrar, you may give a

15     number to 1D961 without its attachments and the document is admitted into

16     evidence.

17             And maybe, Mr. Lukic, I suppose you will have to upload

18     this [indiscernible] separately then.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Once uploaded, document 1D961 receives number

20     D284, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, I found the transcript reference from

23     yesterday.  Only it's temporary transcript.  We only temporary transcript

24     in the courtroom.  It's page 43, line 13.  I asked him about

25     Elfete Veseli, last name is spelled correctly, and the witness confirmed,

Page 10993

 1     "That's what I heard."

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It doesn't say anything about the attachments.  It

 3     talks about the person you're asking.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  But that person is mentioned in that attachment, in

 5     that text, newspaper text.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  And what does the newspaper text say --

 7     support, if he says he heard about the person?  He hasn't read the

 8     newspaper.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  It's not the first time here that we admit documents

10     witness has never saw before.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  The witness has no connection with the

12     document.  He has connection with what he heard about the person who

13     was -- happens to be in the document.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Well, yeah, I think we have enough in the transcript,

15     so it's not necessary for us to have that article --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers]

17             MR. LUKIC:  I will upload only the picture then.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

19             Madam Hochhauser, any re-examination?

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  No, Your Honour, I have no further examination.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Witness RM297, this brings us to the conclusion of

23     your testimony for today.  Thank you very much for taking the time off to

24     come and testify.  You are now excused.  Please travel safely back home.

25             May the Chamber --

Page 10994

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 3                           [Closed session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             Madam Hochhauser, before I give you leave to leave, whereas you

16     did mention it in your Prosecution filing somewhere that you may not

17     tender 65 ter 15266 [Realtime transcript read in error "12566"], would

18     you like to formally withdraw it from your 65 ter list now that it was

19     not used with this witness?

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, Your Honour, we could do that.  I don't

22     anticipate using that sketch with any other witness.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, ma'am.  It is so withdrawn,

24     Madam Registrar.

25             You are now excused.

Page 10995

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Mr. McCloskey has asked that I ask permission

 2     for him to be excused as well.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. McCloskey, through your counsel you are

 4     excused.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Sorry.  I notice also the transcript picked up

 6     the 65 ter number as "12566."

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's "12566."  Thank you.  I now hand over to

 8     Judge Orie.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Judge Moloto.

10             Mr. Weber, you're the one remaining.

11             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Yes, out of process of

12     elimination.

13             Good morning.  At this time the Prosecution will call

14     Mile Janjic.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, no protective measures.

16             MR. WEBER:  That's correct, Your Honour.  And I don't know if

17     Your Honours are aware but we did send a brief communication last night

18     that this witness has been previously [indiscernible] Rule 90(E).

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then -- could the witness be escorted into the

20     courtroom.  And then meanwhile I will use the time to deliver a decision

21     in open session, but I do not know whether it has been provided to the

22     booth so perhaps I wait for a second.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The booths have not been provided with the

24     document.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 10996

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait until the decision has been

 2     distributed.

 3             Good morning, Mr. Janjic.  Before you give evidence, the Rules

 4     require that you make a solemn declaration.  May I invite you to make

 5     that solemn declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  MILE JANJIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Janjic.  You may be seated.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll first be examined by Mr. Weber.  Mr. Weber is

13     counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find him to your right.

14             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

15             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honours.

16                           Examination by Mr. Weber:

17        Q.   Good morning.  Could you please introduce yourself to the

18     Trial Chamber.

19        A.   My name is Mile Janjic.

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm sorry to deviate already, but I do

21     not know if the Chamber wanted to admonish this witness or caution the

22     witness at all before I proceed with --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps that's best to do now.

24             Mr. Janjic, if any question will be put to you where a truthful

25     answer would expose you to -- to reveal any criminal conduct by yourself,

Page 10997

 1     then please do not answer that question right away but first address the

 2     Chamber.  We'll then decide whether or not you have to answer that

 3     question.

 4             Now, if we would put you under an obligation to answer that

 5     question, those answers could not be used in any proceedings before this

 6     Tribunal against you.  But if there's any risk, please tell us openly

 7     that the answer might incriminate yourself.

 8             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   Mr. Janjic, have you previously appeared before this Tribunal and

11     provided testimony on three earlier occasions in the case of

12     Prosecutor versus Blagojevic and Jokic as a Defence witness and in the

13     Popovic and Tolimir cases as a Prosecution witness?

14        A.   The answer is yes.

15        Q.   Have you been informed that portions from your previous testimony

16     in the Blagojevic and Popovic cases would be tendered as your evidence in

17     this case?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Prior to your testimony here today, did you have an opportunity

20     to review your previous testimony?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you have any clarifications or corrections to your earlier

23     testimony?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   If you were asked the same questions, would you provide the same

Page 10998

 1     answers in this case?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now that you've taken the solemn declaration in this case, do you

 4     affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of your previous testimony?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders at this time

 7     65 ter numbers 28876, 28877, and 5183.  65 ter 28876 is the proffered

 8     transcript from the Blagojevic case; 65 ter 28877 is the proffered

 9     transcript from the Popovic case; there's one associated exhibit, 65

10     ter 5183, which is a photo discussed by the witness at Popovic transcript

11     pages 17940 to 41.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I think approximately 70 pages of

14     transcript, that is not exactly within our guidance, is it?

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, it would be the Prosecution's position

16     that the approach with this witness is consistent with the general

17     concept behind the guidance, although not specifically in accordance with

18     the tendering of an amalgamated statement.  As Your Honours have heard,

19     this witness was initially appeared as a Defence witness.  The best

20     available and clearest record of his evidence so far has been his direct

21     examination which is essentially chronological in the Blagojevic case.

22             As Your Honours might be aware from our submission, there's a

23     total of 251 pages of previous evidence that this witness has given and

24     we have dramatically cut that down to 74 pages total, of what is directly

25     and centrally relevant in this case and also reduced the number of

Page 10999

 1     associated exhibits to one that we're tendering.

 2             With respect to the evidence of the witness, he has been

 3     cautioned pursuant to Rule 90(E).  He was originally a Defence witness.

 4     We have had minimal contact with him throughout the years and put his

 5     evidence on pursuant to Rule 92 ter on two previous occasions, which has

 6     been accepted, and then it has also been accepted on a third occasion

 7     pursuant to Rule 92 bis in the Karadzic case.

 8             So we are very cognizant of the Chamber's guidance, and we ask

 9     that this transcript be admitted at this time because it is, in our view,

10     in accordance with the Chamber's general guidance.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any further comments -- or

12     Mr. Stojanovic, any further comments?  Certainly the fact that the

13     witness originally was a Defence witness makes this situation slightly

14     different from what we usually find.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is correct, Your Honours,

16     that in the Blagojevic/Jokic case this witness was a Defence witness.  We

17     know that, and we will not object to the shortened version of the

18     transcript be admitted in this case.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And I take it then also not against the -- no

20     objection against the associated exhibit which is only one.

21             Madam Registrar, could you please assign numbers.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28876 receives number P1445.

23             Document 28877 receives number P1446.

24             And document 5183 receives number P1447, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P1445 up to and including -- 1445.  P1445 up to and

Page 11000

 1     including 1447 are admitted into evidence.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, may I proceed with a presentation of a

 4     summary of the witness's evidence?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please read the summary.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Mr. Mile Janjic was a member of the Bratunac military

 7     police in July 1995.  The witness provides evidence of events that

 8     occurred at multiple locations between the 11th and 15th of July.

 9             On 11 July 1995, Mr. Janjic was tasked with providing security

10     along the Sase-Pribicevac road.  That evening, he returned to Bratunac

11     and went to the Hotel Fontana where he and other Bratunac MPs were met by

12     men who introduced themselves as the personal security detail of

13     General Mladic.  During the night of the 11th, the witness provided

14     security both outside and inside the Hotel Fontana.

15             On the morning of 12 July, Momir Nikolic told the witness and

16     other Bratunac MPs to follow the orders of Colonel Jankovic.

17     Subsequently, Colonel Jankovic ordered Mr. Janjic to count the number of

18     people getting on buses and trucks in Potocari.  Mr. Janjic counted the

19     individuals boarding the buses on the 12th and 13th of July, 1995, and

20     reported his numbers to Colonel Jankovic on both days.  The witness also

21     provides evidence about the separation of men and the military staff that

22     he saw on those days in Potocari, including Generals Mladic and Krstic.

23             Mr. Janjic provides further evidence that on the 14th or 15th of

24     July, he was among several Bratunac MPs who went to a school in Rocevic.

25     There, he saw 10 to 15 soldiers in a meadow near the school whom he

Page 11001

 1     recognised as being members of the Bratunac Brigade from Zenica.

 2             That concludes the summary of the witness.  May the Prosecution

 3     proceed with further questioning?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Janjic, before discussing some of the events between the 11th

 7     and the 15th of July, the Prosecution would like to ask you an additional

 8     question concerning a photo that's already been admitted in this case.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 43 of

10     Exhibit P1155, and we request if the Court Officer could please magnify

11     the photo on this page.  If we could have just the photo.

12        Q.   Mr. Janjic, on pages 9772 to -73 of your previous testimony in

13     the Blagojevic case, you identified yourself as being the individual

14     depicted at number 1, and General Krstic being the individual at number

15     2.

16             My question to you is following:  Did you see General Krstic in

17     Potocari on the 12th and 13th of July, 1995 or on only one of those days?

18        A.   I'm sure that I saw him on one of those two days.

19        Q.   Do you recall whether that was the first day you were in Potocari

20     or the second day?

21        A.   As I've already told you, one of those days.  I believe it was on

22     day one, but that I'm not 100 per cent sure of.

23             MR. WEBER:  We're done with the photo.

24        Q.   Directing your attention to the evening of 11 July 1995, during

25     your previous testimony in the Blagojevic case, at pages 9759 to -60, you

Page 11002

 1     stated:

 2             "In front of the hotel, we were met by men who introduced

 3     themselves as the personal security detail of General Mladic, and they

 4     gave us these certain tasks."

 5             Could you please tell us how many men you were met by?

 6        A.   There were three men.

 7        Q.   What were these men wearing?

 8        A.   As far as I can remember, they had camouflage overalls; i.e.,

 9     they were wearing uniforms belonging to the Army of Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   On pages 9760 and -61 of your previous testimony in Blagojevic,

11     you discuss how you were one of the Bratunac MPs who provided security on

12     the exterior and interior of the Hotel Fontana between the evening of the

13     11th and morning of the 12th.

14             Did you see General Mladic at any point in time while you were

15     providing the security?

16        A.   Only once.  On the 11th, in the evening, I saw him in front of

17     the reception desk as he was walking in the direction of the restaurant

18     within the hotel.  I did not see him from very close by.

19        Q.   Did you see him on any other occasions after that evening?

20        A.   Yes, very briefly on the following morning, on the 12th that is.

21     It was very early in the morning when I saw him.  It was on the 13th --

22     no, it was on the 12th; I apologise.  He was on the first floor of the

23     Hotel Fontana.  I suppose that he had just left the room where he had

24     spent that night.

25        Q.   Where were you specifically when you saw him on this -- following

Page 11003

 1     morning?

 2        A.   One of my tasks besides providing security for the Fontana hotel

 3     was to patrol at the reception on the ground floor.  From the ground

 4     floor a staircase leads to the first floor.  There were a couple of us or

 5     perhaps three of us, and at the beginning of that hallway or at the end

 6     of the staircase, that's where I was.

 7        Q.   Before discussing your counting of individuals on the 12th and

 8     13th in Potocari, I'd like to ask you a few general questions about the

 9     separation of men and women on these days.

10             Could you please briefly explain to us the process used to

11     separate the men from the women in Potocari on the 12th and 13th of July.

12        A.   In front of that group of people consisting of the inhabitants of

13     Srebrenica, there was a red and yellow police ribbon.  There were

14     UNPROFOR soldiers in front of that ribbon and there were also members of

15     the special police.  When buses, lorries, and other vehicles arrived,

16     somebody would lift that ribbon and they would let groups of people of

17     perhaps 100 or 200 people, i.e., larger groups of people, towards the

18     buses.  The buses, lorries, and other vehicles were parked some 80 to

19     100 metres in the direction of Bratunac from that ribbon.  That group of

20     people would walk the distance of some 80 to 100 metres, and on their

21     way, on the left and the right-hand side of the asphalt road leading from

22     Srebrenica to Bratunac, members of the special police were lined up.  And

23     while the group was moving in the direction of the buses, the males were

24     directed towards the left side of the road looking towards Srebrenica,

25     then they were directed on an adjacent road towards a house on the

Page 11004

 1     left-hand side of the Srebrenica-Bratunac road.  At the same time, the

 2     women and the children would go on walking to the right and they would

 3     get on the buses that were parked there.

 4        Q.   In your answer, you just mentioned a house.  What colour was that

 5     house, and could you give us a better description of the building that

 6     you're referring to?

 7        A.   I can explain the location itself.  The house itself was white,

 8     so nothing out of the ordinary.  What I could observe, that it had a

 9     large yard which reached up to the asphalt road and the canal, that is to

10     say, the main road between Srebrenica and Bratunac.  It was to the left

11     of the road from Srebrenica to Bratunac, and that's all I can say.

12        Q.   After or during the separation process on the 12th or the 13th,

13     were you able to see where the men were taken before they were boarded

14     onto buses?

15        A.   As I said, they were in the yard.  I saw them in the yard of the

16     house.

17        Q.   In your Blagojevic testimony, on page 9828, you were asked

18     whether you heard any women crying during the course of the separations.

19     Your answer was yes.  Did you hear women crying on both the 12th and

20     13th of July during the course of the separations?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did this crying continue throughout both days?

23        A.   I said yes.  As for this last question, I can't really answer

24     because I truly don't remember.  I don't remember how long it lasted and

25     whether it was throughout the two days.

Page 11005

 1             There were women crying and protesting, but I can't say how long

 2     it all lasted.

 3        Q.   During your previous testimony before the Tribunal, you've

 4     explained the counting of men and women who boarded buses and trucks on

 5     the 12th and 13th in Potocari.  Today I would like to focus specifically

 6     with you on the number of men who were placed on the buses on these

 7     dates.

 8             Starting with the number of men on the 12th of July, I'm going to

 9     review your previous testimony and ask you to clarify your answers.

10             In your Blagojevic testimony, at page 9844, you explained that on

11     the first day, there were between 10 and 15 buses with men, and you

12     indicated there were over 50 men per bus.

13             In your Popovic testimony, at page 17942, you were asked whether

14     you could give any better estimate of the number of men per bus.  You

15     indicated it was over 50 people, most likely 70.  You continued to

16     explain your sampling method and stated on page 17943:

17             "But I stand by the numbers concerning the buses.  It was 70 and

18     not 50."

19             Could you please confirm for us whether I understand correctly

20     that on the 12th of July, there were between 10 and 15 buses loaded with

21     men and there were approximately 70 men per bus, according to your

22     sampling method.

23        A.   The answer is yes, and I can clarify the discrepancy between the

24     two statements.

25             There is a small difference because the sample I relied on was

Page 11006

 1     based on the number of women and children on the 12th in the morning.  I

 2     did not count the men, and I thought at a certain point, I thought that

 3     there should have been less than 70.  However, if we look at the number

 4     of bodies, or actually, the size of the bodies and the difference between

 5     men and women, one would think that more women could fit into a single

 6     bus.  However, my assumption was not confirmed because even though

 7     children and women were somewhat smaller, the women had items with them,

 8     packages, et cetera.  So, in my view, the figure could have been between

 9     50 and 70.

10        Q.   Let's move on to the number of men on the 13th.  In the Popovic

11     case, on page 17945, you estimated that there were "certainly two or

12     three times more" from the previous day.

13             What do you base this estimate upon?

14        A.   The difference between the first and the second day consisted in

15     the following:  The first day, in the morning, the people left on those

16     ten buses or so.  On the second day, as of noon onwards, they began

17     leaving together with the rest.  The women and the men were being boarded

18     onto the buses as well, and they did not have to wait until the end of

19     that day, like the first day.

20             So the yard was already full before the first departure.  Since

21     it was full, they were sent further afield from the road which was to the

22     left of the Srebrenica-Bratunac road.  Right past the house, there's a

23     meadow on the left-hand side, the same side where the house is, and

24     that's where they were sent.  It is some 50 to 100 metres away from the

25     house.  There was a large group of people there.

Page 11007

 1        Q.   And on the second day, did you use the same counting method as

 2     the first day?

 3        A.   The same method, yes.  However, the difference on the second day

 4     was that the men were no longer transported on buses.  They were also

 5     being transported on truck, much like the women and children.

 6        Q.   I'd like to go back to one of your earlier answers, and you refer

 7     to the fact that the women had items with them, packages, et cetera.

 8     This is on page -- page 22, lines 22 and 23.  Did the men have any

 9     packages with them?

10        A.   No.

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I see that it might be time for a break.

12     If this is a suitable moment for a pause.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It's time for the break.  We'll take a break of

14     20 minutes.

15             Could you please follow the usher, Witness.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take the break, Mr. Weber, I do understand

19     that the parties will make a great effort to see whether we can conclude

20     the evidence of this witness today.

21             How much time would you still need after the break?

22             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I won't be long.  Maybe 10, 15 minutes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then let's see whether we can conclude the

24     testimony of this witness today.

25             Mr. Stojanovic, any --

Page 11008

 1             We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   Mr. Janjic, during your previous testimonies, you've explained

 9     your interactions with Colonel Jankovic on the 12th and 13th of July in

10     Potocari.  During your Blagojevic testimony, at page 9768, you were

11     asked:

12             "Could you please tell us who was your commanding officer to your

13     understanding?"

14             You answered:

15             "Well, as I understood at the moment, and in view of rank, it was

16     Colonel Jankovic."

17             Were you under the command of Colonel Jankovic on both the

18     12th and 13th of July?

19        A.   I was in my understanding.

20        Q.   Why was that your understanding?

21        A.   Because Major Nikolic, Momir Nikolic, who was a major at the

22     time, sent me to an officer who was senior to him, who was a colonel, to

23     be at his disposal, and I was at his disposal for the two days; that is

24     to say, from the morning till evening, not during the night though.  In

25     my understanding, I was under his command for the two days.

Page 11009

 1        Q.   On page 9788 of your Blagojevic testimony, in reference to events

 2     on the 12th of July, you indicated that the reports or numbers came in in

 3     instalments throughout the day, and Colonel Jankovic was the one who was

 4     supposed to do the adding up?

 5             Did you provide periodic reports of the number of people who were

 6     placed on the buses and trucks to Colonel Jankovic on the

 7     13th of July also?

 8        A.   The question is somewhat unclear.  Since there were reports

 9     coming intermittently -- well, I don't think such reports were arriving

10     from elsewhere.  It was me, instead, who reported the figures to

11     Colonel Jankovic on a few occasions.

12        Q.   Did you provide the reports on both the 12th and 13th to

13     Colonel Jankovic?

14        A.   On a few occasions, yes.

15        Q.   Would -- when you say "on a few occasions," could you please

16     explain that?

17        A.   I will explain it the following way:  I explained how I counted

18     for the first hours on the 12th.  And, after that, I explained how it

19     came that the colonel accepted this idea on how to take samples of the

20     people boarded onto the vehicles.  On several occasions, since I realised

21     that there was another person who was counting the number of people

22     leaving Srebrenica, several times we were in contact with

23     Colonel Jankovic.  On one such occasion, he told me and the other person

24     from the civilian police to count more carefully in order to have at

25     least approximate figures.  So he had both of us in mind.

Page 11010

 1        Q.   Was Colonel Jankovic the only person you were reporting these

 2     figures to?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you know whether Colonel Jankovic communicated any information

 5     about your number counts to members of any international organisations?

 6        A.   I don't have that kind of knowledge.

 7        Q.   Were you the only Bratunac MP involved in the counting of

 8     individuals in Potocari?

 9        A.   For the first few hours of the 12th, the answer is no.  There

10     were several members of the MP platoon involved.  After the first two to

11     three hours on the 12th, I was the only person doing so.  When we

12     reverted to the sample-taking procedure, then I remained as the only

13     person counting the trucks and buses.

14        Q.   Could you please tell us the names of the other Bratunac MPs who

15     participated in the counting on the 12th.

16        A.   I can recall a couple for the first two to three hours:

17     Milovan Mitrovic, Milan Gvozdenovic, Zdravko Ilic, myself,

18     Zoran Zivanovic, and perhaps someone else.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We missed the first name.

20     Could the witness please repeat.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last two were Zdravko Ilic and

22     Zoran Zivanovic.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   Could you please repeat the first name that you mentioned.

25        A.   Radenko Zaric, Milovan Mitrovic.  I mentioned the two of them

Page 11011

 1     first.

 2        Q.   Did you or Milan Gvozdenovic receive any specific orders or tasks

 3     during the evening of 13 July 1995?

 4        A.   Yes.  From Colonel Jankovic.

 5        Q.   Could you please tell us what Colonel Jankovic ordered you both

 6     to do?

 7        A.   First, he asked if we had a vehicle at our disposal.  Since we

 8     answered positively, he ordered that we get into the vehicle, since the

 9     ribbon had been removed by that time, and since we could not see any

10     further afield from where we were standing, there were no more -- no more

11     inhabitants there.  He told us to drive in the direction of Srebrenica,

12     deeper inside the territory, and in case we encountered more civilians en

13     route, to tell them to go to Potocari and wait and that, the next day,

14     transport would be organised and that they would be all be driven away.

15        Q.   Did you carry out this order?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   I'd like to change topics a little bit.  On page 17950 to -51 of

18     your Popovic testimony, you discuss what you saw when you went to Rocevic

19     on the 14th or 15th of July.  You indicated that you saw a few of your

20     colleagues and a group of 10 to 15 soldiers of the Serbian army outside

21     of a school in what you described as a yard or meadow close to that

22     building.

23             Do you recall this testimony?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Did you interact with any of your colleagues or the other Serbian

Page 11012

 1     soldiers when you saw them near the school in Rocevic?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Could you please describe this interaction.

 4        A.   I believe I said so a number of times before.  I didn't know why

 5     we went to Rocevic and what our task was to be there.  We were there for

 6     a brief period only.  I got off the vehicle, when we arrived in front of

 7     a school.  This is where I encountered the group of soldiers.  There was

 8     even a colleague, a work-mate from the military police.  Out of curiosity

 9     I asked them what they were doing there and what was going on.  They

10     said, although I couldn't see it, that there were men inside the school,

11     Muslim men, and that they were brought there.  To their knowledge, they

12     were supposed to have been transported in the direction of Teocak.  I

13     heard of that location.  It is somewhere between Tuzla and Zvornik,

14     although I have never visited the place.  That's all I could learn from

15     the colleagues.

16             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 191 of 65 ter

17     5248.

18        Q.   Mr. Janjic, while the next exhibit is coming up, if you could

19     tell us who from the Bratunac military police was present when you saw

20     them near the school.

21        A.   Who was present in front of the school or in general?  Because I

22     did mention that a number of vehicles arrived.  Do you mean the people

23     whom we met in front of the school or the people who arrived at the

24     school?

25        Q.   Were there any Bratunac MPs in front of the school; and, if so,

Page 11013

 1     could you tell us their names.

 2        A.   I met a work-mate of mine whose name is Zoran Zivanovic and we

 3     had a brief conversation.  I was also present when he talked to

 4     Mirko Jankovic, the MP platoon commander, so I have to mention that he

 5     was there as well.  He wasn't in front of the school but outside the

 6     yard.  He was there with an APC of the UN which was painted white.

 7        Q.   So we have it clearly on the record in this case, do I

 8     understand correctly that Milenko Jankovic is a different person than

 9     Colonel Jankovic who you reported to on the 12th and 13th of July?  I'm

10     sorry, that was Mirko Jankovic.  That was my mistake.  Mirko Jankovic.

11        A.   Yes, it is a different person.  Mirko Jankovic was the MP platoon

12     commander in July 1995.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could I seek clarification of one of the

14     areas.  It may be a translation or a language matter.

15             Witness, you were recorded as having said the following.  You

16     were talking about men "inside the school, Muslim men, and that they were

17     brought there.  To their knowledge, they were supposed," and now you're

18     talking about the men with whom you had a conversation, "to their

19     knowledge, they were supposed to have been transported in the direction

20     of Teocak."

21             I have difficulties in understanding that they were supposed to

22     have been transported.  Is it that they were supposed to be transported

23     in that direction?  Or is it that they had already been transported?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is correct.  They were

25     supposed to be transported.

Page 11014

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That clarifies the issue.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Janjic, I'd just like to direct your attention to the

 5     photograph that's before you.  Do you recognise what is depicted?

 6        A.   This building looks like the school in Rocevici.  I'm a bit

 7     confused by the fence in front of it.  I don't remember it looking like

 8     that.  But I do remember that this was the backyard.  The gym was on the

 9     left-hand side.  The ground floor and the first floor remind me a lot of

10     that school and the road in front of the school.  And you can see the

11     gate in the photo, the electrical posts, and the fence, and can you see

12     the road that is below the school, and that is the Zvornik-Bijeljina

13     road.

14             MR. WEBER:  At this time the Prosecution would tender this single

15     photo.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It needs to be uploaded as a single photograph.

20             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Ms. Stewart also just

21     reminded me of the same.  We will do so.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we already assign a number to it.

23     Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned would be ...

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Once uploaded the photo will receive number

25     P1448, Your Honours.

Page 11015

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And would you please inform Madam Registrar

 2     once -- once it is uploaded.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. WEBER:  No further questions.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.

 7             Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

 8             Mr. Janjic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

 9     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

10             You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Janjic.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   I'll try to take into account what you have told us so far.  I'll

15     use some photos, video-clips, and documents to jog your memory and I will

16     have some questions for you.  The first one being:  When did you join the

17     military police of the Bratunac Brigade?

18        A.   I joined the military police sometime in the summer of 1994.  It

19     was either in June or July.

20        Q.   Will you agree with me that that was a unit that would match an

21     infantry platoon in strength and that's exactly how you were organised?

22        A.   I will agree that it had up to 50 men at the most.

23        Q.   In military terms, who were you directly subordinated to?

24        A.   Perhaps we were supposed to be subordinated to the brigade

25     commander.  However, in factual terms one could easily say that we

Page 11016

 1     received all of our orders from Major Momir Nikolic.  He seems to have

 2     been in charge of us.

 3        Q.   Where was the seat of the military police platoon with regard to

 4     the command of the Bratunac Brigade?  Physically, I mean.

 5        A.   In the vicinity of the entrance into the building that housed the

 6     Bratunac Brigade.  There were a few small buildings there, and our

 7     buildings -- building was perhaps 30 to 40 metres from the building where

 8     the Bratunac Brigade was billeted.

 9        Q.   Do you know that the military police platoon of the

10     Bratunac Brigade kept records of the duty service and that the records

11     were kept daily, covering the activities of your platoon?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you have an occasion to see that log-book that was kept at

14     the military police platoon?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would like to call up 65 ter 04205.  Let us

17     look at page 12 in B/C/S and page 9 in English.

18             Mr. Janjic, this is one of the pages that I would like to show

19     you and invite your comments.  In the left upper corner, it says that

20     this was recorded on the 8th of July, 1995.  Can you see that?  Look at

21     the left-hand side upper corner.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And, here, in the central part of that page, it says that on the

24     8th of July, during the shift military conscripts were brought in and

25     that there was a patrol working at check-points, and there's something

Page 11017

 1     that I would like to concentrate on.  A patrol consisting of four

 2     military policemen went to Pribicevac for UNPROFOR members.

 3             Can you remember what happened exactly?  Were you a member of

 4     that patrol?

 5        A.   I can state for a fact that I was not a member of that patrol but

 6     apart from that, I really can't remember what this was about.  I can't

 7     remember.

 8        Q.   If I make a little pause, please don't hold it against me.  I'm

 9     waiting for the interpretation to be over.

10             Do you know that there came a time in Bratunac when a group of

11     UNPROFOR members appeared and that they were billeted there?

12        A.   No, I don't know that.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And then let's look at the same document, but this

14     time I'm looking at page 15 in B/C/S, and in English it would be on

15     page 12.  Let's wait for the English version.  Thank you.

16             This is another page in that log-book.  It covers the date of the

17     11th of July.  And, to the best of your recollection and according to

18     your testimony, you provided security for the Pribicevac-Spat road, or

19     Pribicevac-Sase road.

20        A.   I would call it the Sase-Pribicevac road.

21        Q.   It says here that one group of the military police provided

22     security for the Pribicevac-Spat road to protect Ratko Mladic and others.

23     First of all, can you tell us what the toponym "Spat" stands for?

24        A.   I was never there.  There is a place called Spat; I remember that

25     from war time.  It is a small village, I suppose, but I was never there.

Page 11018

 1        Q.   Is that village close to the Sase-Pribicevac road?

 2        A.   I believe that it is closer to Pribicevac, but I don't want to

 3     speculate.  I'm sure that it is in the Pribicevac sector, but I would

 4     only be -- speculated if I attempted to tell you exactly where it was.

 5        Q.   What was your task on that day?

 6        A.   On that day, as so many times before or during the month of July,

 7     we're talking a period of seven or five days, we provided security along

 8     the road.  We were told that a large group of officers were taking that

 9     road on their way to Pribicevac and that our task was to provide security

10     for their safe passage, for their safe return as well.

11        Q.   Is it correct that at that time there was a forward command post

12     in Pribicevac?

13        A.   There was a command post of the 3rd Battalion in Pribicevac.  It

14     had been set up much before.  I believe that it was set up in 1993, if

15     not even before that.

16        Q.   At one point on the 11 July, General Ratko Mladic also took that

17     road in his vehicle; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber when it was, when that vehicle

20     drove by.

21        A.   I can't say when that happened, when the vehicle was travelling

22     towards Pribicevac.  I only knew that the general was travelling towards

23     Pribicevac on that day, that we had to exert more caution.  I saw that

24     vehicle on its way back in late afternoon.  I believe that it was after

25     5.00.  I'm sure that it was not before 5.00.  It was after 5.00, but I

Page 11019

 1     don't know whether it was around 6.00 or around 7.00.  I can't be sure of

 2     that.

 3        Q.   Was that vehicle moving towards Srebrenica or from Srebrenica at

 4     the moment when you saw it?

 5        A.   As I've just told you, that vehicle was returning from

 6     Pribicevac, and that could only be in the direction of Bratunac.

 7        Q.   Can you take another route from Pribicevac to get to Srebrenica?

 8        A.   I assume that that would be the case, but I don't know.  It's

 9     only my assumption.

10        Q.   At one point in time, in the vicinity of the place where you

11     were, there was a NATO air strike; is that correct?

12        A.   That happened on the 11th, much before General Mladic returned.

13     We knew that he was in the Pribicevac sector which increased our concern.

14     NATO aircraft were observed, and we were close to the command post, which

15     is a bit lower, and I believe that their sortees inflicted more --

16     damaged on us, who were above Pribicevac.  Some 2- or 300 metres from our

17     vehicles there were two aircrafts flying over us.  They were throwing

18     cluster bombs or something like that.  We heard a lot of explosions.

19     They must have thrown dozens or hundreds of those bombs.  We were

20     powerless there.  All we had was a Pinzgauer vehicle.  At that moment I

21     was in the vehicle.  I opened fire from the anti-aircraft gun without any

22     success.  There were a few more sortees.  They threw their load on our

23     positions and they vanished.

24        Q.   According to you, when did that happen on the 11th of July?

25        A.   I would say that that happened in the afternoon after 12.00 but

Page 11020

 1     much before the time when General Ratko Mladic returned -- was returning

 2     from Pribicevac.

 3        Q.   According to you, the place where those bombs landed, as you

 4     called them, how far was that from Pribicevac, i.e., from the command

 5     post?

 6        A.   It's very difficult to be precise.  The closest to us was perhaps

 7     200 to 300 metres.  And looking from the command post, it could have

 8     perhaps been 500 metres, or even up to 1 kilometre away from that place.

 9     But I'm not sure.

10        Q.   In the vehicle that passed you by and you were told that it was

11     general -- General Mladic's vehicle in that convoy, but you didn't see

12     General Mladic himself, did you?

13        A.   I was standing perhaps 20 to 30 metres away, and I could see what

14     I could see.  But my colleague who was closer to the road than I was -

15     Nenad Jokic was his name - was very close to General Mladic.

16        Q.   How much later after General Mladic went by did you stay in the

17     field; and when did you receive your new orders?

18        A.   We stayed on for a very short time.  According to experience, we

19     knew that after the high-ranking officers passed by, we would be called

20     off and then we would be repositioned.  Very shortly after that, and it

21     was a customary practice, like so many times before that, we gathered.

22     We got into the vehicles and we headed for the command of the

23     Bratunac Brigade.

24        Q.   And what was the next order that you received on -- late in the

25     afternoon on the 11th of July?

Page 11021

 1        A.   Our next order, as soon as we arrived, we did not even park our

 2     vehicles properly in front of the military police premises at the gate of

 3     the premises of the Bratunac Brigade.  Our vehicle was stopped by our

 4     colleagues, police officers whose name I don't remember, and we were

 5     given a task to urgently go in the direction of Pobrdze and to bring

 6     Ljubisav Simic, Professor Simic.  I know that he had to do about the

 7     municipality.  He was either president or something-like that.

 8             Another group of police officers that were standing next to us

 9     were given a task to bring Miroslav Deronjic.  They went to his house on

10     foot.  He resided very close to the command of the Bratunac Brigade.

11     During that period of time, he also discharged some duties in the

12     municipality.  I really don't know which one of them was what but I know

13     that they were both highly positioned in the civilian authorities in the

14     municipality.  And let me just emphasise that within the perimeter of the

15     Bratunac Brigade command, i.e., in front of the building closer to the

16     gate, we saw a large number of officers, I could spot them during that

17     brief period of time, and I could see that General Mladic was one of

18     them.

19        Q.   Who was it who gave you your order?

20        A.   As I've just told you, our colleagues from the police turned up.

21     I can't remember who they were.  I don't know who gave us that particular

22     order.  I know who gave us our next order after that.

23        Q.   And that evening, you brought Mr. Ljubisav Simic with you, did

24     you not?

25        A.   I did not bring Ljubisav Simic.  I knew where his house was.  We

Page 11022

 1     came in front of the house.  We rang the bell.  His wife opened the door.

 2     And I believed her when she told me.  She used to be my Russian language

 3     teacher in high school, so we believed her.  We did not enter the house.

 4     We did not search the house.  I believed her when she told us that

 5     Mr. Simic was away on business in Montenegro.  That's why we did not

 6     bring him.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  That's exactly what we heard.  And then when you

 8     returned, did you receive a new order?

 9        A.   Mr. Nikolic approached us.  There were several of us there, and

10     he told us to go in the direction of the Fontana hotel, because our next

11     order had to do with the hotel.  This is what we did after having spent a

12     very short time in the military police building.  We stayed there perhaps

13     15 minutes to half an hour.  A group of some 15 police officers on foot

14     set out in the direction of Hotel Fontana.

15        Q.   What was your task in front of the hotel?  What were you supposed

16     to do there?

17        A.   We were told that everything would become clear when we got

18     there.  When we arrived in front of the hotel, we were approached by

19     uniformed soldiers.  They introduced themselves as the personal detail of

20     General Mladic, and they explained to us that some negotiations were to

21     take place there and that our task was to provide security for the -- the

22     general sector of the Fontana hotel.

23             At that time, the area around the hotel was not a pedestrian area

24     so we were supposed to stop the traffic and to remove all the civilians.

25     We were deployed there, and we carried out the task.

Page 11023

 1        Q.   How long did you go on performing that task on the 11th of July?

 2        A.   We stayed there until the early morning hours of the

 3     12th of July.

 4        Q.   Do you remember that at one point in time an UNPROFOR delegation

 5     arrived in the hotel from Potocari?

 6        A.   I remember that their vehicles arrived.  They were quite

 7     striking.  They parked in front of the restaurant.  There's a parking lot

 8     there that can accommodate up to 10 vehicles.  It is actually a garden

 9     terrace belonging to the hotel.  They parked very close to the entrance.

10     It was already dark; I don't know how late it was.

11        Q.   And were there any other activities that evening?  Did anybody

12     else arrive?  Did anyone leave?  Were there any other vehicles that

13     arrived?  Or did some vehicles leave?

14        A.   I can be sure of that one time.  I can't remember any other

15     arrivals.  We were tasked with providing security for a large area around

16     the hotel so I was not there all the time.  There were times when --

17     times when I was behind the hotel and not very close to the hotel.

18        Q.   Did you see anything that might indicate that somebody was

19     slaughtering a pig, either in front of the hotel or behind the hotel?

20        A.   No, no.

21        Q.   If there was a lot of noise -- a slaughtering pig produces a lot

22     of noise, and if that was happening close to the hotel and in view of

23     where you were positioned, would you have been able to hear such a noise?

24        A.   I'm sure that I would have heard it.  Maybe I didn't say this,

25     but I would like to say now that we had a short intervention.  In the

Page 11024

 1     close vicinity of the hotel, we could hear music coming out of the house.

 2     I believe that the house belonged to the Ilic family.  I knew them.  I

 3     went to school there, so I knew a lot of people, and we went there and

 4     asked them to turn the music down.  That house is across the street from

 5     the hotel, some 200 metres from the hotel.  That music was quite audible.

 6     It was quite loud.

 7        Q.   That night --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 9             Could the witness -- do you -- do you understand the English

10     language, Witness?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely not.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take off your earphones for a second.

13             I'm wondering, Mr. Stojanovic, what is the position of the

14     Defence, because earlier we -- when witnesses testified about the

15     slaughtering of a pig, we were presented with a document which:  I gave

16     permission to slaughter a pig.  Now it seems now your line of questioning

17     to be that no pig was ever slaughtered, so that confuses me slightly.  Is

18     the position of the Defence that there was a -- if I could say so, a

19     regular slaughtering of a pig not intended to intimidate, or is the

20     position of the Defence there was no slaughtering of a pig at all?

21             Could you tell us what position of the Defence is.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The position of this Defence

23     after the consultations with the client is clear.  No pig was

24     slaughtered.  There was no intimidation of that kind.

25             Let me just finish, please.

Page 11025

 1             MR. WEBER:  I believe the language spoken might be something that

 2     could be understood by the witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I should have thought about that.

 4             But I think it's -- it's not dramatic at this moment.

 5             So finally your position is that, despite -- so we do have to

 6     understand that the permission to do it was -- is then going against your

 7     own case or ... I'm just wondering what it is.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We saw a document from the

 9     Tolimir case which was an approval and that approval is not in dispute.

10     But that activity did not take place in front of the hotel at the time

11     that was indicated here.

12             Our client -- and we will hear that from other witnesses as well.

13     I apologise.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I can't say that that document was presented in

15     relation to any event that took place beyond hearing distance from the

16     witness at that time.  But let's leave it to that.

17             This witness has told us now that he didn't hear any such thing

18     of a kind.  So let's move on before we enter up into too many details.

19             And if I could give you some guidance, this witness gives quite a

20     lot of details which seems to be not that relevant for his story, so if

21     you could please keep tight control over questions and answers.

22             Please proceed.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Since -- I may put one short question.

24             Now the witness has his earphones on again.

25             We have still the -- this page of the log-book of

Page 11026

 1     Bratunac Brigade in front of us on the screen.  I would only want to --

 2     I'd like to put one question to the witness.

 3             We see on the bottom of that page, and you see it as well, two

 4     names:  One name is Bozic; the next is Nikolic.  Above that, there is one

 5     single word.  Could you explain that word?  I ask because it's not

 6     reflected in the English translation.  What is written there and what

 7     does that mean?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see the name.  It seems German to

 9     me.  In any case, it reads Bozic.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honours --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Above the name -- above that name, Bozic, what is

12     written there?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Ona nama is Bozic."  That is the

14     sentence before.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   The Judge is asking you about the B/C/S document in our language.

17        A.   I don't have it in B/C/S.

18        Q.   Is there a word in the B/C/S text that is missing from the

19     English text?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness says "I don't have it in B/C/S."  We

21     first have to verify whether the witness receives this document in B/C/S.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's gone from our screens too.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, do you see the document in B/C/S?  That is,

24     in your own language.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 11027

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what is written just above the two

 2     names?  It seems to be one word --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems someone's assisting me.

 4     It says "prijavnica [phoen]" which could be gatehouse or a reception.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we -- I don't know whether the document will

 7     be tendered, but if so, the Chamber would like to have a complete

 8     translation.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution will of course take care

10     to correct the translation.  Our position would be that the 65 ter should

11     be made in whole, rather brief log of the July [overlapping speakers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but whatever, long or short, we would like to

13     have a complete translation that's [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             MR. WEBER:  [Overlapping speakers] ... of course, I just want to

15     know because we will check the other pages too.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   I'd like to draw your attention to the 12th of July now and

20     Potocari.  Did you have any knowledge as to who Colonel Jankovic was?

21        A.   Not until then.

22        Q.   When you discussed the process of separation for men and

23     mentioned the members of this special brigade of the police, how did you

24     know that they were the people separating the men from the group of

25     refugees?

Page 11028

 1        A.   I knew it because they had introduced themselves to me in a

 2     conversation.  When I talked to them, I learned who they were, what unit

 3     they belonged to, and when they said that they were "specials," that is

 4     to say the special police, I knew then what kind of people they were and

 5     how they were assembled.  After I learned who they were, and after I

 6     remembered what their uniforms -- uniforms looked like, I could see them

 7     as well engaging in the process.

 8        Q.   You, however, did not take part in the separation activity of

 9     separating the able-bodied men from the rest.

10        A.   No, not at any point in time.

11        Q.   You didn't see any member of the Bratunac Brigade taking part in

12     the process.

13        A.   I didn't -- or, rather, I couldn't see members of the

14     Bratunac Brigade there because they weren't there.  I explained in detail

15     that at first there were some 15 MPs there who belonged to the

16     Bratunac Brigade.  Amp that the number went down to six or seven and at

17     certain points in time there were even less of us present in Potocari.

18        Q.   Then I will rephrase my question.  Did you see any member of the

19     military police of the Bratunac Brigade on the 12th of July at any point

20     in time taking part in the separation of able-bodied men?

21        A.   I didn't see any.

22        Q.   Everything you saw regarding the separation process, when the

23     able-bodied men were separated, was that members of the special police

24     brigade engaged in it?

25        A.   That is correct.  And I have explained already the -- the process

Page 11029

 1     itself.

 2        Q.   I want to ask you the following:  At some point in time, you saw

 3     General Mladic arrive, as you explained, in Potocari.  Do you recall

 4     that?

 5        A.   I do.

 6        Q.   Did you have occasion to see General Mladic at some point address

 7     the refugees in the area?

 8        A.   I saw him go there.  I saw him move in that direction.  He didn't

 9     stay there for long, and I can only suppose that he addressed them

10     because I couldn't hear him.

11        Q.   Let us look at excerpt from those events.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is P1147, the video we've

13     used already.  The segment I'm interested in begins at 24:40 ending at

14     25:42.  After that, I will have a few questions.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, we take some patience until we see and

16     hear anything.  If you do the same, we can proceed.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Janjic, do you remember whether General Mladic arrived in

20     Potocari before the transport set out, or at the moment people began

21     being transported?

22        A.   I cannot be certain.  I can say that I saw him twice, and I'm

23     positive.  When he arrived, he was stopped by the group of people where

24     this footage was shot.  It was some 120 metres away.  I mentioned the

25     distribution of food and that he was shouting at members of the logistic

Page 11030

 1     battalion.  So he stayed there for a brief period.  Then he passed by the

 2     place where I was.  I was 100 metres away from the group.  He was

 3     accompanied by some security officers.  He went to the ribbon and went

 4     back.  In the course of those couple of days I saw him one other time.  I

 5     know that he went in the direction of Vijogor because the people from the

 6     MP platoon, my colleagues --

 7        Q.   Let me interrupt you.  I'll get to that because I think it is an

 8     important fact, but for the time being kindly answer only the questions

 9     that I have put to you so we can conclude today.

10             The other thing that I wanted to ask you about:  You said that

11     you saw General Mladic at some point shout at members of the logistics

12     battalion.  What was it all about?

13        A.   Well, it will take time.  I've tried already to explain it in

14     detail.  We spent those two days without food or water.  What I could

15     observe after his departure was that we saw a vehicle packed with food

16     and water, and they were distributing it to the people to the side of the

17     road, the people on the buses, and everywhere else.  We, as the military

18     policemen also tried to get some food because our supply did not work.

19     The same was done by the members of the special police, but we were

20     turned away.  We were told that it was Mladic's orders, that he was

21     shouting at them, and that all the food and water was to go to the people

22     leaving.  This is what remains etched in my memory.  We hoped to get

23     something from the forces of UNPROFOR, and it was incomprehensible to me

24     because we knew that after we entered they had tens of tonnes of food and

25     water and yet they distributed perhaps a few litres of water and I didn't

Page 11031

 1     see a single loaf of bread in circulation.  I never seen them distribute

 2     anything to the population there.  After all of it, we took over the camp

 3     securing --

 4        Q.   We'll get to that too, but let's stop here for now.  Did I

 5     understand you well that you received information that it was

 6     General Mladic's order to give the food and water to the refugees and not

 7     to the soldiers and policemen from Republika Srpska?

 8        A.   Precisely.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, is this a good time

11     for a break?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break in a second.  But I'd like to ask

13     one clarifying question.  You said that UNPROFOR had tens of tonnes of

14     food and water.  What's the source of this information?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be happy to clarify but I was

16     interrupted by counsel.  What I tried to say is the following:  After all

17     of the events, a few days later, after the 12th and the 13th, let's say,

18     between the 15th and the 20th, I claim it responsibly, our next task, the

19     task of the MP platoon, was to secure -- well, the UNPROFOR soldiers had

20     left by then.  We had to secure the base so that their property would not

21     be taken away and looted.

22             So we were there at least or over seven days, maybe ten days to a

23     fortnight.  At the time, military vehicles came from the VRS, and they

24     took truck -- it took truck upon truck for them to take away the food and

25     fuel.  The containers were towed away as well, where they were billeted,

Page 11032

 1     where they slept.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You say you found -- at least the trucks that

 3     transported fuel and food out, found all those tens of tonnes of food and

 4     fuel in the premises of UNPROFOR after the 15th.  Is that the source of

 5     your knowledge?  Did you see it, or did you hear that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I was present because I,

 7     too, provided security then.  I saw it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you saw it.  That was my question.

 9             Could you please follow the usher because we'll take a break.

10             Mr. Stojanovic, we are on track, in terms of time?

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I will

12     conclude even sooner.  So, in any case, we'll conclude today.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at

14     quarter past 12.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

18             Meanwhile, I use the time.  The Chamber was informed by the

19     Office of the Prosecution that the photograph, which is page 191 of the

20     65 ter document 5248, that single page that had been tendered today and

21     assigned provisionally Exhibit P1448, has been uploaded separately as

22     65 ter P5248B, and P1448 is therefore now admitted into evidence.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I put the

Page 11033

 1     question, I would like to say that 1D961 has been uploaded as a photo,

 2     and it bears number D284.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] this is confirmed by

 4     Madam Registrar, and it has been accordingly now been corrected in

 5     e-court so that everything now is accurate in the records of this case.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   We will continue talking about the 12th of July.

 9             Kindly tell the Trial Chamber, to the best of your recollection,

10     we saw a clip depicting General Mladic.  Where was that taken?  In what

11     area?  What are the facilities behind him?

12        A.   I managed to recognise the population behind and the strikingly

13     remarkable red-and-white ribbon which was an imaginary boundary.  That

14     would be lifted up and people that were behind that ribbon would be let

15     through.

16        Q.   According to your estimate how far was that from the facility

17     where the men were accommodated after having been separated from the

18     women and children?

19        A.   About 100 metres, at least.

20        Q.   And now let's look at another clip together.  I would like us to

21     look at P1147 from 28:08 to 28:44.  I'm going to show you just a frozen

22     photo taken from that clip.  After you see it, I will have a few

23     questions for -- for you.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11034

 1        Q.   Sir, is this a clip that were -- was shown to you during the

 2     examination-in-chief and did you recognise yourself in that clip?

 3        A.   I suppose so, because I could see myself again coming from the

 4     background and looking in the direction of the camera.

 5        Q.   General Krstic provided this statement and repeated

 6     General Mladic's words, according to which the population would be

 7     transported if they so wished.

 8             Do you remember that you heard General Krstic saying anything

 9     else, in addition to what was recorded?

10        A.   As I've already told you, I was not in a position to hear -- hear

11     what I can hear in the clip.  I came from the background.  I realised

12     that he was being interviewed.  I may have caught a few words.  I

13     couldn't really hear them.  I can't remember that I saw General Krstic

14     providing any orders and instructions or saying anything to anybody else.

15     And I repeat:  I did not hear, at the time, what I can hear now in the

16     clip.

17        Q.   We're talking about the 12th of July, day one of your stay in

18     Potocari.  Did you ever see any ill-treatment, abuse against the refugees

19     in the area?  Did you see that with your own eyes?

20        A.   No, none of that.  General Mladic was there.  I saw him on

21     several occasions, and I must say that the level of discipline was really

22     very high, at a very enviable level.

23        Q.   The place where you were when this video was recorded and

24     General Krstic's statement, how far was that from the place where

25     General Mladic's statement was recorded?

Page 11035

 1        A.   Well, if you take a better look, you will see those buses in the

 2     background, and we know that those buses were some 80 metres away from

 3     the place where we saw General Mladic before.  So the distance was

 4     certainly 80 metres if not more.  I already told you how far the buses

 5     were from the imaginary boundary marked with that red-and-white ribbon.

 6     It must have been at least 80 metres.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to call up P61

 8     which an is aerial photo of the Potocari sector as it was on the 12th of

 9     July.  And then I will ask the witness to take a pencil, or a pen,

10     rather, and to mark certain localities.

11             Let's first wait for the document to be uploaded.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, is there any reason to believe

13     that -- I don't know what you want the witness to mark, but do you expect

14     him to mark, for example, what was often called the white house in a

15     different place?  Or, I mean, I'm just wondering to what extent what you

16     are about to do may be repetitious and to what extent it may not even be

17     in dispute.  Would you please keep that very much in mind when you ask

18     the witness to mark.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will certainly bear that in

20     mind.  Maybe that exercise will not even be necessary.  You're right.

21        Q.   Please look at the photo.  That photo was taken at 1400 hours on

22     the 12th of the July.  Could you please tell us whether you can see the

23     place where General Mladic provided his statement, i.e., where you was

24     interviewed for TV?

25        A.   I'm really sorry, and you know it very well because you showed me

Page 11036

 1     similar aerial photos in my previous testimony, I had a very hard time

 2     finding my bearings.  The Judges helped me.  I can testify orally.  I can

 3     make markings, but I'm not very good at marking photos.

 4        Q.   Well, thank you very much.  I had not insist, in that case.  I

 5     know that that is exactly how it was.  But now I would like you to pay

 6     attention to a question that you tried to elaborate in your answer but

 7     then I interrupted.

 8             At one point, on the 12th of July you say that you remember that

 9     one group of MP members received a different order and that was to head

10     in the direction of Viogor.  Do you remember that?

11        A.   I know what vehicle they took.  I can give you the names of one

12     or two of the policemen who went in the direction of Viogor.  Their

13     mission didn't stop there.  After Viogor, according to what they told us

14     later, they escorted General Mladic to Vlasenica and even further.  I

15     don't know how far.  In any case, it was in the direction of Han Pijesak.

16     Maybe they went even as far as Han Pijesak.  This is all I know.

17        Q.   I would like to elaborate on that.  Tell the Trial Chamber, to

18     the best of your recollection, who were the military policemen who were

19     told to go to Viogor and escort General Mladic?

20        A.   The Pinzgauer vehicle with an anti-aircraft machine-gun was

21     driven by Milovan Mitrovic.  I can also say with 100 per cent certainty

22     that there was Zeljko Zaric there, as well as Mladen Blagojevic.  I would

23     stop there because I'm not sure about the others.  I only know that there

24     were two or three others.

25        Q.   Tell the Trial Chamber when was it, on the 12th of July, when

Page 11037

 1     they were sent on that mission?

 2        A.   It was in the afternoon.  I already told you that they returned

 3     late that night.  I told you where they had been sent to.  They returned

 4     quite late during the night.

 5        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where the Viogor sector

 6     is in relation to Potocari.  What is the distance between the two?

 7        A.   From the direction of Bratunac, if you drive on the

 8     Bratunac-Srebrenica road, the road to Viogor forks off in the direction

 9     of Zepa on the right.  You have to turn before Potocari, and it is

10     certainly more than 4 or 5 kilometres away from Potocari.

11        Q.   Did you find out at any point in time why General Mladic went to

12     Viogor on that day in the afternoon?  Did your colleagues tell you that?

13        A.   They told me, because the movement of the troops of the

14     Bratunac Brigade and many other troops happened after Srebrenica was

15     taken.  The next mission was to go to Zepa, and there's just one road

16     leading to Zepa, one may say.

17        Q.   After leaving the Potocari sector on the 12th of July, according

18     to your recollection, did General Mladic ever return to that sector?

19        A.   I can't say.  I can't say yes or no because I don't remember.

20        Q.   You've told us that that patrol on that day went as far as

21     Vlasenica and Han Pijesak.  Am I right in thinking that?

22        A.   Yes, you're absolutely right.

23        Q.   Those police officers, your colleagues, and you have told us

24     three of their names, did they tell you that they escorted General Mladic

25     all the time?

Page 11038

 1        A.   Yes, they shared the detail with us.  I -- I suppose that those

 2     details would be of no consequence for this Trial Chamber.  But, yes,

 3     they did share their experiences and a lot of tiny details.

 4        Q.   Let me just ask one other time-related question.  Are you sure

 5     that that happened on the 12th in the afternoon, or is it perhaps

 6     possible that that happened on the 13th in the afternoon?

 7        A.   Well, yes.  You are insisting on the 12th, whereas, I have

 8     repeated on several occasions that I'm not sure about the dates.  All the

 9     details are correct.  Everything is accurate but the date.  You were

10     mention -- insisting on the date, and I -- I forget to mention that I'm

11     really not sure about the date.

12        Q.   Let's focus now and let me hear from you whether it would be

13     correct that General Mladic left for Viogor on the first day of your stay

14     in Potocari, i.e., on the 12th of July.  Would that be correct?

15        A.   I would be speculating if I said that I'm sure.  I told you when

16     I saw him, where I saw him, how I saw him.  I can only tell you with

17     100 per cent certainty that it was in the afternoon, but I would be

18     speculating about the date.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And now let me ask you this:  In methodological terms

20     or in technical terms, how did you count the buses that drove men off

21     from Potocari?

22        A.   I've already said several times that the same procedure applied

23     to women, children, and men.  We were counting women and children for the

24     first couple of three hours on the 12th.  And then on the 12th in the

25     evening, there were some dozen buses with men and we counted all those

Page 11039

 1     men that left Potocari.  And the same repeated on the 13th.

 2        Q.   Let's simplify.  Did you count people or did you count buses?

 3        A.   For the first three hours, I counted people on the 12th in the

 4     morning.  Later on, we counted buses, lorries, and other similar

 5     vehicles.

 6        Q.   Would I be right in saying that you started by counting heads,

 7     that you realised that it was a time-consuming exercise, and then you

 8     decided to count the number of vehicles that were taking people away.  Am

 9     I right?

10        A.   The answer is yes.  But that was done with approval by

11     Colonel Jankovic.

12        Q.   At some point, Colonel Jankovic addressed the men in your

13     vicinity, and he informed them about the procedure that would ensue; is

14     that correct?

15        A.   The answer is yes, and that happened on the 12th in the afternoon

16     hours.

17        Q.   What did you hear Colonel Jankovic say to these people when they

18     asked him what would happen with them next?

19        A.   He came across as sincere.  He tried to calm them down.  He told

20     them there was no need for concern or panic, that the buses would arrive,

21     that they would all be transported and that they would catch up with

22     their families.  They would be taken to the same destination as them and

23     that there was no need for them to be afraid, to panic, or any such

24     thing.  That's what he told them, and I heard his words myself.

25        Q.   Did you personally at any point in time have any information that

Page 11040

 1     a lot of those people would be anything else but exchanged?

 2        A.   What did you say?  Exchange?

 3        Q.   Yes, I said exchange.  Did you believe that they would be

 4     exchanged?  Did you take that for a fact?

 5        A.   Yes.  I believed that, and I kept on believing that for a long

 6     time.  But now I believe that a lot of them were killed.  Whoever passes

 7     through Potocari, I can see a lot of graves.  I understand that a lot of

 8     the people had been killed.  I didn't know.  I couldn't even suspect that

 9     something like that would happen.

10        Q.   The record of the number of people leaving Potocari was kept by

11     an employee of the civilian police from the Bratunac police station;

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you tell the Court his name.

15        A.   The person's name is Milisav Ilic.

16        Q.   The men who were separated on the 12th of July were taken away in

17     a single group from Potocari; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   When you say "in my assessment, there were between 10 and 15

20     buses," and we're talking about the first day, and if I understood

21     properly there were no trucks that day, how is it possible then that if

22     you kept record of the number of buses to have such a wide margin of

23     differing answers as compared to the number of vehicles?

24        A.   I'm afraid I didn't understand the question perfectly.

25        Q.   My mistake.  I'll reformulate.  Tell me this:  The number of

Page 11041

 1     buses which took away the separated able-bodied men, and you said there

 2     were between 10 and 15 vehicles, was it your assessment and that you are

 3     unaware of the exact figure?

 4        A.   That is why I put it within the range of between 10 to 15 buses.

 5     There may have been eight, or 13, or a dozen.

 6        Q.   So that is your free estimate, so to speak?

 7        A.   It is my free estimate because I didn't try to commit to my

 8     memory the figures in any other way, so it's an assessment of mine.

 9        Q.   I'll ask you about the 13th, but let me conclude the 12th first.

10     Tell me this:  When you were asked about seeing personal effects being on

11     the ground in front of the facility where the able-bodied men were, did

12     you see any passports strewn about belonging to those men?

13        A.   As regards the personal possessions, many such questions were put

14     to me at different times.  I'm not a lawyer so I don't see what the point

15     is, but I did try to clarify it in the Blagojevic trial.  It is my

16     opinion, and if we know that close-by there is a general of an army, I

17     didn't see anything wrong with the people --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.

19             What the question is whether you saw any passports.  Whether

20     that's legally relevant or whether there is anything wrong in that is a

21     different matter.  Did you see passports there?  That's the question.

22     Could you please answer that question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see any passports.  I saw

24     a pile of things though.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11042

 1        Q.   Thank you.  That answers my question.

 2             Tell us this next, please:  To the best of your recollection when

 3     on the 12th of July did you leave the area of Potocari?

 4        A.   Late -- in late afternoon, before dark.  As was the case on the

 5     13th.  It was late in the afternoon.  It was still daylight because it

 6     was summertime.  So my guess is between 7.00 and 8.00 p.m. --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Between 8.00 and

 8     9.00 p.m.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you know whether during the night between the 12th and the

11     13th there were any transports, or was all transportation halted during

12     the night until the next morning?

13        A.   I wasn't there, and I don't know.  I don't think there was any

14     because my task continued the next day; that is, do not [as interpreted]

15     count the people.  When I came there in the morning, I didn't see them

16     and I wasn't there during the night so I don't know.

17        Q.   The convoys of vehicles taking away the refugees had to go

18     through the centre of Bratunac in order to reach Kladanj; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you know that some members of the Bratunac Brigade MP platoon

21     also secured the streets so as to have no problems with the evacuation

22     when passing through the town?

23        A.   There were some people there, and I can cite their names.  They

24     told me what they did and they said that they were securing the streets.

25     That's my work-mates, policemen, told me later on.  They said that they

Page 11043

 1     secured the outpatient clinic in Bratunac, that some women were in labour

 2     and people requiring medical assistance, and they also secured the road.

 3        Q.   Let us look together at a document from the duty log-book of the

 4     military police platoon of the Bratunac Brigade.  And we'll comment upon

 5     that.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 65 ter 04205

 7     again, page 16 in the B/C/S and 13 in the English version of this report.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile, Mr. Weber, I was rather critical about an

 9     incomplete translation.  I meanwhile notice that the same name word

10     either written in Cyrillic or in Latin script appears on almost every

11     page and is always translated as "reception."  So under those

12     circumstances, the Chamber does not insist on having a lot of work done

13     on that matter.  Of course, if there are any other flaws, that's a

14     different issue.

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if it's okay with you we'll just check

16     it just to be sure [overlapping speakers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but for that one page the word appears clearly

18     and the lack of -- we have another 15 or 16 pages to see what that word

19     means, and that is "reception."

20             MR. WEBER:  Understood, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  As on the present page.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Microphone, Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Thank you.  It is

Page 11044

 1     page 16 in the B/C/S and 13 in the English.  Apologies.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Janjic, again before us is a page of the log-book kept by the

 3     military police platoon pertaining to the 12th and 13th of July.  It is

 4     stated that one part of the police force secured the sick and wounded in

 5     the clinic, as can you see in the middle of the passage in the B/C/S.

 6             Is this precisely what you told us about when you said that some

 7     military policemen secured the wounded and sick at the outpatient clinic?

 8        A.   I can see this document, but this is the first time that I see

 9     it.  I mentioned that I know the names of people who told me about that.

10     Milan Ilic told me about the outpatient clinic.  As for the centre and

11     the streets and securing the streets I was told by that

12     Borivoje Jakovljevic.  He discussed the securing of roads and the centre

13     of town.

14        Q.   Who were Ilic and his colleagues securing in the outpatient

15     clinic in Bratunac?  Who were the wounded and sick?

16        A.   The people in question were of Muslim ethnic background.  I told

17     you that he mentioned that a woman literally delivered her child in the

18     outpatient clinic.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And when it is stated that they were securing the

20     passage of vehicles through Bratunac where the refugees from the enclave

21     of Srebrenica were being sent, is it correct to say that due to

22     antagonisms and poor relations there was an objective danger of letting

23     the refugees from Srebrenica go through the territory controlled by Serb

24     forces unescorted?

25        A.   I would agree with you.  Without any escort, it would have been

Page 11045

 1     dangerous.  Certain individual could get strange ideas and cause

 2     incidents.

 3        Q.   You hail from the village of Opravdici.  If I understand

 4     correctly it is a part of Kravica; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  Opravdici village belongs to the local commune of Kravica.

 6        Q.   Did you know that in that village too on the

 7     7th of January, 1993, horrible things happened against Serb civilians?

 8        A.   Yes, I do know because I, too, participated in those events.

 9        Q.   Judging by the sentiments that prevailed at the time between the

10     two ethnicities, Serb and Muslim, was there objectively a great degree of

11     danger of people taking revenge and that it was impossible to contain or

12     control the accumulated hatred?

13        A.   There was hatred, definitely.  I can provide an answer to that.

14     However, I do not support taking revenge, and I do not second that.

15        Q.   Thank you.  In the document before you, it is also stated that

16     night duty, as stated here, was both at the school and in the

17     Fontana hotel.  It says the UNHCR school.

18             Let me ask you this:  Did you have any knowledge of members of

19     the military police working at that time at a location where UNPROFOR

20     members were accommodated?

21        A.   I've no knowledge of they're being accommodated in Bratunac

22     whatsoever.

23        Q.   Where did you spend the night between the 12th and the 13th, in

24     terms of the Fontana hotel?

25        A.   I wasn't there between the 12th and the 13th.  Between the 11th

Page 11046

 1     and the 12th, I was in the environs of the hotel.  But the next day, I

 2     attended to a different task, which was away from the hotel.

 3        Q.   Let me put it in a different way.  Where were you between the

 4     12th and the 13th, during the night?

 5        A.   Providing security for the Fontana hotel.

 6        Q.   That's what I asked you.  Where were you when you say securing

 7     the Fontana hotel between the 12th and the 13th?  Where was it?  Where in

 8     the town itself?  Or where in the hotel were you?

 9        A.   The security operation entailed a wider perimeter.  There is

10     immediate security, wider security, road security, et cetera.  On the

11     11th, I was on the first floor of the hotel.  On the 12th, for most of

12     the night, between the 12th and the 13th, I was in front or at the back

13     of the hotel but I wasn't at -- in -- on the first floor.  I was at the

14     reception of the hotel as well because I tried to catch very brief naps

15     of about half an hour in between shifts.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And on the 13th, in the morning, again, you were

17     tasked with going to Potocari?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Had you been given that task before by Nikolic, or did someone

20     talk to you on the 13th again saying you have to go back to Potocari?  Do

21     you recall that?

22        A.   I can explain in detail as to the 12th in the morning.  It was

23     conveyed by Mirko Jankovic and supposedly Momir Nikolic was waiting for

24     us in Potocari.  I can recall some orders from Momir on the 13th, but as

25     for the morning of the 13th, I know that we were told to go back.  We

Page 11047

 1     were literally said, Those of you who were in Potocari go back.  And that

 2     was in front of the military police building.

 3        Q.   Were you told that by your officer, Mirko Jankovic or by

 4     Momir Nikolic?

 5        A.   I am confused between Mirko Jankovic and Mile Petrovic, who was

 6     one of the commanders, or maybe Slobodan Mijatovic.  But I would have to

 7     speculate.  I can't recall.

 8        Q.   So you had the same task on the 13th in Potocari; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   On the 13th of July at any point in time, and at any location in

11     Potocari, could you observe or see any kind of mistreatment, abuse of the

12     fleeing population?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   On the second day, do you recall whether food and water was

15     supplied as well by the civilian and military authorities from Bratunac

16     to the fleeing population?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you recall whether on that day you saw any civilian

19     representatives from Bratunac in Potocari:  Ljubisav Simic,

20     Miroslav Deronjic, or Srbislav Davidovic aka Puce?

21        A.   I didn't see any of them.  As for the first two I know about

22     them, but I don't know this last person, Puce.  I don't know who it is.

23        Q.   Do you recall, if, on the 13th of the July, at any point in time

24     you saw Momir Nikolic in Potocari?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 11048

 1        Q.   On the second day, who was physically separating the able-bodied

 2     men from the rest of the refugee population?

 3        A.   The procedure was the same, just as it was the first day.

 4        Q.   I would still ask you to tell us for the record who engaged in it

 5     the second day.

 6        A.   The members of the special police.

 7        Q.   On the second day, did you see any VRS members or members of the

 8     Bratunac Brigade, or even if we go more widely, taking part in the

 9     separation of able-bodied men on the 13th?

10        A.   I didn't see them.  I didn't notice their presence, save for the

11     members of the military police.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

13     to look at D24, which is footage.  It has already been used with a member

14     of the monitoring mission of the UN.  I think it lasted around three

15     minutes, after which I will have a few questions for the witness.

16             We will not rely on the sound, and we have already indicated as

17     such.  We're only interested in the video recording.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We'll conclude with

20     this part.

21             Your Honours, with your leave, it seems that General Mladic has

22     some stomach problems.  Can he be allowed to leave for a very short

23     period, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do we -- is it his wish we take an early

25     break?  In which case, we will do that.  Or does he just want to be

Page 11049

 1     absent for two or three minutes?

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we may, we can take an early

 3     break.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, first of all, Mr. Mladic can be escorted

 5     out of the courtroom.  He's the first person interested to leave the

 6     courtroom.  He can be escorted out.

 7             And once security has escorted Mr. Mladic out of the courtroom,

 8     the witness may follow the usher.

 9                           [The accused withdrew]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And we'll take a break, and -- could the witness be

11     escorted out of the courtroom.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 25 minutes

14     past 1.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 1.04 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.

17                           [The accused entered court]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, can we proceed?  Yes, of course

19     after the witness has been escorted in.  I'm asking because of the reason

20     why we had an earlier break.

21             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11050

 1        Q.   Mr. Janjic, before the break, we showed you an excerpt from a

 2     video-clip depicting the distribution of food, i.e., bread to the

 3     population of Potocari on the 12th of July.  Did this jog your memory,

 4     and did this repeat on the 13th of July?

 5        A.   If you will allow me, I would like to explain.  I already

 6     mentioned the distribution of food.  I remember that on one occasion the

 7     van that we had just seen left at the moment when the buses had not

 8     arrived yet and food was distributed from that van.  I knew some of the

 9     people from that logistics platoon.  However, all that food that was

10     distributed on the 12th, on the 13th, was happening some 200 metres from

11     the place where this clip was recorded and it was not distributed in this

12     way.  I did not receive food, and from the place where I was, I could see

13     that each bread was cut into four pieces and each of the pieces of bread

14     was accompanied by a tin of cold meat, just one little tin.

15        Q.   Did there come a time when you noticed anybody taking food from

16     the population, that they had just received?

17        A.   No.  I didn't see anything like that.

18        Q.   To the best of your recollection, how long did you stay in

19     Potocari on the 13th?  Until when?

20        A.   Until late in the afternoon.  I left before the dark.

21        Q.   And then, on the 13th of July, did you -- spoke to

22     Colonel Jankovic?  Did you have any communication with him?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   On the 13th of July, you didn't see or you do not remember having

25     seen General Mladic in Potocari?

Page 11051

 1        A.   I really don't remember.  I can't be sure of the dates anyway.

 2        Q.   At the moment when you left Potocari, was the process of the

 3     evacuation of the population finished?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Was that the moment when Colonel Jankovic gave you your new

 6     order?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   When giving you that order, did Colonel Jankovic tell you to

 9     forcibly bring the population should you encounter any people on the road

10     leading from Potocari to Srebrenica?

11        A.   As I already told you a couple of hours ago, we were supposed to

12     inform them to come back to the same place in Potocari because there

13     would be a new round of transportation organised for them the following

14     day.  That was our order.

15        Q.   Did you meet any of those groups of people or individuals, and

16     did you force any of them to go to Potocari?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   If you had forced them, would that have been contrary to the way

19     you understood Colonel Jankovic's order?

20        A.   Of course.  It would be just the opposite.  Our order was to

21     inform people.

22        Q.   To the best of your assessment, how many people did you come

23     across that evening, on the 13th of July, on the road leading to

24     Srebrenica?

25        A.   You say the road.  Yes, it was on the road, but it was only about

Page 11052

 1     2 or 3 kilometres further we saw a few people moving slowly or sitting by

 2     the road.  We conveyed the message to them.  They looked forlorn.  They

 3     looked concerned.  That would be my estimate.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the number of

 5     people that he came across.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness repeat the number of the people he

 7     came across.  Could you repeat that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said several dozens, in little

 9     groups.

10             JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] it was a request from the

11     interpreters.  Please proceed.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   Just one more question that concerns both dates, the 12th and the

14     13th.

15             While you were in Potocari on those two days, did you hear

16     artillery fire which may have been opened from the general area of

17     Potocari?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   On the 13th, in the evening when your mission was accomplished,

20     you again found yourself at the command of the military police platoon;

21     is that correct?  Did you receive yet another order after that?

22        A.   It would be more correct to say that once we accomplished the

23     mission, when I returned, I found Mr. Momir Nikolic at that same place in

24     the Potocari sector.  He had already issued his order that people should

25     not go home but, rather, that we should report to the command of the

Page 11053

 1     military police platoon because there were other tasks awaiting us there.

 2        Q.   It is very important to know the time.  To the best of your

 3     recollection, when was that?  What time of day on the 13th of July when

 4     you spoke to Momir Nikolic in Potocari?

 5        A.   Judging from my previous answer, you can conclude that that was

 6     late in the afternoon.  First, I accomplished my orders from

 7     Colonel Jankovic, and then I talked to Momir Nikolic.  It was late in the

 8     afternoon.  It was still not dark but it was rather late that afternoon.

 9        Q.   You said that you had seen Momir Nikolic on the 13th in Potocari

10     before he gave you that order; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Could you please tell us - and again, please, let's focus on the

13     precise time - to the best of your recollection, when was it on the 13th

14     of July when you had Momir Nikolic facing you in Potocari, when you saw

15     him in Potocari?

16        A.   It was on the 13th in the evening, towards the end of the day.

17     And before that, I saw him on several occasions on the 12th and on the

18     13th, so I can't give you any other times because I had several meeting

19     with him in the course of the 12th and the 13th.

20        Q.   Thank you.  That new order that concerned the night between the

21     13th and the 14th, who did you get that order from?  Can you be more

22     specific?

23        A.   We received that order on our return, and when we found ourselves

24     in front of the police command.  Momir Nikolic was there.  He had

25     preceded us in a car.  He told us to join the colleagues at the

Page 11054

 1     Vuk Karadzic elementary school in Bratunac.

 2        Q.   You mentioned a car.  Would I be right in thinking that that was

 3     a requisitioned Toyota?

 4        A.   I don't know if it was a Mazda or some other Japanese-made car.

 5     It was a light blue colour.  I don't know where he got it from.  After I

 6     was given my orders from General Jankovic, my colleagues who were next to

 7     Nikolic and next to that car, I heard that he had driven that car out

 8     from the UNPROFOR base.  I don't know on whose approval.  I really

 9     wouldn't be able to say.

10        Q.   Please tell the Trial Chamber, to the best of your recollection,

11     what order was given to you that concerned the night between the 13th and

12     the 14th?

13        A.   The order was to go in front of the Vuk Karadzic school in order

14     to provide security for the persons who were in and around that school.

15             I'm saying in and around the school because, later on, I saw that

16     there were people in the house -- in the school but there were also

17     people around the school, on the streets, in the town.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, when you use the expression "to

19     provide security for the persons who were in and around that school," do

20     you mean to provide security that nothing would happen to them?  Or to

21     guard them and to keep them where they were that moment so that they

22     would not move?

23             In which way did you use that expression?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said "Stojanovic" and then

25     "Janjic."  Was that a correction?

Page 11055

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I started -- let me see ...

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether I used any name.  But could you

 4     please answer that question.  If you said "providing security," is that

 5     to keep them so that they couldn't go from where they were, or is it to

 6     protect them from any evil that may have come from outside?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My understanding of the order was

 8     to protect them from any evil.  To thwart any threat from them.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That's --

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That answered my question.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up a

14     document from Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez's collection.  The number is P01132.

15     The e-court page I'm interested in is 127.

16        Q.   This is a photo of the centre of Bratunac.  While we're waiting

17     for it to appear, I would like to ask you, sir, to the best of your

18     recollection, where were the refugees accommodated at that moment, or,

19     rather, during that night?  What locations did they occupy?

20        A.   In addition to the school, and I heard from my colleagues that

21     the school was full.  I didn't see it myself.  I heard that from others.

22     I saw them, as you walk from the command towards the centre of town,

23     towards the Fontana hotel.  There's a road to the left leading to the

24     police station and passing by the station and leading up to the school.

25     It is about 100 to 150 metres long.  There were buses on that street.  I

Page 11056

 1     know that because I saw them.  I went home because I resided very close

 2     by across the street from the municipality building.  I also saw buses in

 3     front of the municipality building, and there were people on the buses.

 4             I would like to add to that that there were two, if not three,

 5     buses in another location.  Across the SUP there was a bakery, and across

 6     there, there's a little alley.  There used to be a market there, and if

 7     you went along that street, you would arrive at the football stadium.  In

 8     that little alleyway next to the bakery shop there were at least two

 9     other buses.  I'm sure of that because I could see that from the place

10     where I was stand.

11        Q.   Look at the photo in -- on the screen in front of you.  With all

12     due respect to what you told us previously, would you be able to find

13     your bearings and tell us what facility is encircled in red?  Could that

14     be the school?

15        A.   To be honest, I can't understand anything in this photo.  I could

16     be of assistance by saying that I used to be provided with much clearer

17     photo at the BiH Court.  And it was much easier to get my bearings on

18     that map.  Maybe you have that.

19        Q.   Well, my time is really limited.  I suppose that we have that

20     photo.  I'm not sure that it is.

21             In any case, to the best of your recollection can you tell the

22     Trial Chamber what was the total number of those vehicles in all the

23     locations you have just described for us, those vehicles, the buses where

24     you saw detainees?

25        A.   I'm sure that I saw about a dozen buses.  There was also a lorry.

Page 11057

 1     I'm sure that there was one very close to where I was.

 2        Q.   When you say that that was your best estimate, would you say that

 3     the number of buses was ten and that there was one lorry?

 4        A.   I would say a dozen, plus a lorry.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, I think the witness estimated 12.

 6     Not to suggest 10 and 11 -- 10 and one lorry, I'm not quite sure I

 7     understand why we are doing that.  He gave his estimate:  12.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I heard in the

 9     interpretation was some ten or so, plus a lorry.  I apologise if my

10     conclusion was wrong, though it was not my objection to change anything

11     in the witness's testimony.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought in my interpretation I heard 12.  Then

13     if that is the case, I apologise to you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the words translated was "a dozen."  A dozen

15     is from what I understand 12.  That's at least my understanding o the

16     word.  Let's proceed.  It seems not to be a vital issue but Judge Moloto

17     is asking for great provision, and rightly so.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  I just

19     wanted to clarify this for that very reason and now I'm moving on.

20        Q.   I need to ask you one more thing.  You remember an incident

21     involving those detainees.  Do you remember some sort of shooting?  If

22     you do, could you please explain for the benefit of the Trial Chamber

23     what happened.

24        A.   During the night, around midnight, I would say, from the place

25     where I was, I heard from the direction of the school, which was some 70

Page 11058

 1     or 80 metres away from where I was, I heard some men shouting on several

 2     occasions.  I'll try and tell you what happened and I could hear the

 3     word, The people from Glogova, where are you?  Glogova is place that I'm

 4     familiar with.

 5             It sounded like an invitation to a rebellion.  Somebody was

 6     crying, People from Glogova, are you there?  Come out.  In any case, the

 7     words were more or less the same every time.  It happened on several

 8     occasions.  And then I heard a burst of fire from the same direction from

 9     which I heard that voice shouting to other people.

10        Q.   Did you see any murders, any killings of the people, either in

11     the buses or in the school?

12        A.   I did not see any, and I can state for a fact that nobody was

13     killed in any of those three or four buses and the lorry.  That's all I

14     know.

15        Q.   Did you see people being taken off the buses, that they were then

16     ill-treated or abused or anything like that?

17        A.   No.  I didn't see any such thing.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before we continue.  I'm looking at

19     the clock at this moment and wonder, Mr. Weber, how much time would you

20     need in re-examination?

21             MR. WEBER:  Probably at the very least five minutes, but up it up

22     to ten depending on answers.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  May be a few questions from the Chamber as

24     well.  I don't know how much time you would still need, Mr. Stojanovic,

25     but to ask the witness what he has not seen, if he has not positively

Page 11059

 1     stated that he had seen something, then the Chamber will not accept that

 2     he had seen other things but assume that he had not seen anything not

 3     mentioned.  But, of course, that is not, under all circumstances, a

 4     reason not to ask someone whether he had seen something.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will abide by the

 7     times given, and I will keep the Prosecution in mind.  I'll try to wrap

 8     things up soon.

 9        Q.   Mr. Janjic, on the 14th, the convoy with the people who were at

10     the school and on the buses left Bratunac.  Did you see the convoy -- the

11     column?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Please tell the Court, in your view, in your assessment, how many

14     vehicles were used to transport the people who spent the night between

15     the 13th and the 14th in Bratunac?

16        A.   I think I said that a few times.  I wasn't there until the end of

17     their departure.  After the first five or six buses left, I left the

18     location too.

19        Q.   Very well.  I will try to get an answer from you in this regard:

20     As for the Rocevic school, did you go there on the 14th or the 15th,

21     bearing in mind what you recall as to the moment of convoy departure from

22     Bratunac?

23        A.   I really can't remember.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have in e-court

Page 11060

 1     65 ter document 04205, page 23 of the B/C/S and 20 of the English

 2     version.

 3        Q.   We go back to the duty log-book kept by the Bratunac Brigade MP

 4     platoon.  The date is the 21st of July.  If you look at the middle part

 5     of the page, it is stated that that day, the military police provided

 6     security for the route travelled by General Mladic:

 7             "A patrol consisting of eight policemen was engaged in securing

 8     the UNPROFOR check-point at the battery factory."

 9             Can you see that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   First of all, can you recall the 21st of July and where

12     General Mladic was going to?  In other words, what was the route you

13     secured in terms of his passage?

14        A.   I can't recall.  I think I mentioned today already that when I

15     discussed food and UNPROFOR soldiers while we were doing that, there is a

16     possibility I was there, but I don't have any knowledge or recollection

17     of it.

18        Q.   Let's pause for the interpreters.  It is our position that we can

19     see on the footage that on the 21st of July UNPROFOR left the Potocari

20     base and went to the Bratunac-Ljubovija bridge and then further afield.

21     And General Mladic was taped as seeing them off.  Does this refresh your

22     recollection of any of your work-mates providing security along that

23     stretch of the road to Serbia?

24        A.   I really can't recall, and I'd rather not speculate.

25        Q.   The second note says what you've already tried to answer when

Page 11061

 1     asked by Judge Orie; in other words, that you, too, at some point in time

 2     provided security of the UNPROFOR check-point at the battery factory.

 3             That note, does it correspond with your recollection that you,

 4     too, were engaged in these tasks?

 5        A.   I think I was clear and that I established a link when I said

 6     that between the 15th and the 20th I was engaged for several days,

 7     perhaps one or two weeks, in Potocari at the base.

 8        Q.   Following these events, did you ever have another occasion to see

 9     General Mladic?

10        A.   I can't recall.  I don't think so.

11        Q.   And I will conclude with the following question:  Given your

12     impression of what you could hear and see in the course of those few days

13     in Bratunac, what was General Mladic like at the time?

14        A.   I don't know if I understood your question properly.  Perhaps you

15     can clarify, if possible.

16        Q.   What was the position of the people in Birac and the villages

17     around Bratunac and Srebrenica?  And what was your position or your view

18     of General Mladic?  In your words.

19        A.   It would take quite a lot of time to explain it all, but all I

20     can say is that I am full of praise for his conduct.  I have all the best

21     to say about him.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I seek

23     to tender three pages, if so possible, from the document which is

24     65 ter 04205.  The pages being ...

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 11062

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the -- that's the book of the military police

 2     platoon.  If you want to -- you have to upload only those pages which are

 3     relevant.  I see there are 20 pages uploaded in translation.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the entire material is relevant and

 5     really should be admitted in full.  It relates to the activities of the

 6     Bratunac MPs at around the time of the charged offences.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean in full, let me just say the [Overlapping

 8     speakers] ... pages.

 9             MR. WEBER:  The 20 pages corresponding --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  20 pages.

11             MR. WEBER:  Yes, to the translations.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The 20 pages translated.  Nevertheless, they will

13     have then the B/C/S version is to be uploaded and limited to that

14     portion.

15             MR. WEBER:  We can take care of that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll take care of that.  I take it then that we'll

17     have a new upload.  And then already the 20 pages which were translated

18     will receive what number, Madam Registrar?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D285, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D285 is provisionally assigned number to the

21     still -- to upload 20 pages in both languages.

22             Anything else, Mr. Stojanovic?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I'd like to

24     thank you and the witness.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 11063

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2                           Questioned by the Court:

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Judge Fluegge has a question for you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, I would like to clarify one matter.

 5             At the end of page 68 of today's transcript, you told us about

 6     Mr. Momir Nikolic and that he issued his order about new assignments for

 7     you and other members of the military police.

 8             What kind of assignment was that?

 9        A.   The assignment was, and I imagine you're talking about the 13th,

10     after I have completed my task issued by Colonel Jankovic.

11             Nikolic's task was not to stray but to be in front of the

12     military police building, to receive new instructions.  As I said

13     already, he did so in front of the MP building.  He told us to go in the

14     direction of the Vuk Karadzic school.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was the new assignment you received from

16     him.  Did I understand that correctly?  Or was there a different,

17     additional assignment?

18        A.   No.  That was it.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I have a few questions for you as well, Witness.

21     I'm trying to understand your evidence, what the activities of the

22     military police platoon were during those days.  And I have a few brief

23     questions for you.

24             The first one:  Was the military police platoon engaged in the

25     escort of Muslim refugees?

Page 11064

 1        A.   On the 13th, as far as the Vuk Karadzic school, the one I

 2     mentioned, that was on the 13th in the evening.  That is what I learned

 3     from my work-mates, members of the military police.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And the following days?  14th, 15th?

 5        A.   I don't have that knowledge.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then my second question would be:  Was the military

 7     police platoon involved or engaged or busy with the surrender of Muslim

 8     people in one of these days?

 9        A.   Kindly explain to me the -- the word "surrender."

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, "surrender," I understand that people give

11     themselves to another force and put themselves at the disposition of that

12     force.

13        A.   I will answer to the best of my understanding.  As for any

14     surrender, the answer is no.  If you mean the take-over of the Srebrenica

15     enclave, we were only engaged in securing the road between Sase and

16     Pribicevac.  We were not participating in the take-over the territory.

17             The next day on the 12th we were engaged in securing the location

18     at Potocari as the population was leaving.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But it is not that people surrendered to your force

20     and then that you accepted them and that you would give them to other

21     elements in the armed forces.  That didn't happen.  Is that ...

22        A.   Not as far as I know.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then was your platoon involved in any way in

24     apprehending Muslims that were hiding in the area?

25        A.   I heard, although I wasn't present, that there was a search of

Page 11065

 1     terrain between Srebrenica and Zepa after all those events concerning the

 2     13th and the 14th.  It was at a later point.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But when -- were then Muslims who were hiding

 4     apprehended?  I mean the following:  If you search the terrain, you may

 5     find nothing.  You can also search the terrain and then find persons

 6     hiding and that you apprehend them.

 7             Did the latter happen?

 8        A.   I don't know about that.  I know there was a search of terrain,

 9     I'm positive of that.  I did not participate in it, and I'm not aware of

10     what the result of it was.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now in the -- I'm talking about the days

12     following the take-over of Srebrenica, well, up to, I would say, up till

13     the 16th, 17th, 18th of July.

14             Now, was your unit involved in apprehension and perhaps then also

15     securing of Muslims?

16        A.   I've said already that I have no such information or knowledge.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could I ask you whether the following might

18     refresh your recollection.

19             In the document which received provisionally number D285, I read

20     for the 14th and 15th of July very short description of the tasks:

21             "The police was engaged in the escort of Muslim refugees."

22             If I go to the 12th and the 13th, I read that:

23             "The police were engaged in securing UNHCR and the surrender of

24     the Muslim people from Srebrenica in Zuti Most to the Serb soldiers in

25     Bratunac."

Page 11066

 1             Could I then move on to the 15th.  There, I read that -- again, a

 2     very short description of what the unit did.  It's not much.  But what

 3     there is in the description is:

 4             "The police worked on searching and combing the area, as well as

 5     apprehending the Muslims found hiding in the area."

 6             Then finally for the 17th of July, I read in what seems to be the

 7     log for your unit and which is not very precise in every respect.  I

 8     read:

 9             "One police patrol remained in Bileca to secure and guard the

10     Muslims."

11             And that follows on a line which says:

12             "Patrols worked on apprehension and securing of Muslims in

13     municipal area of Bratunac and Srebrenica."

14             This gives a bit of a different picture compared to your answers.

15     Would you agree with that, and do you have any explanation for the

16     difference between your testimony in this respect and what we find in

17     this log-book?

18        A.   This is what I can say.  Perhaps the Prosecutor's Office have a

19     clearer picture because they have my statement from the Blagojevic case.

20     Let's say the 12th and the 13th, I have explained my activities

21     in detail.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm going to stop you there.  I asked you a few

23     questions, four questions.  In the questions, I used almost literally the

24     language I find in the log-book.  What I find in the log-book and what I

25     heard in your answers, to some extent you said, I wouldn't know; in other

Page 11067

 1     cases, you said, No, this is what did not happen.  I'm asking your

 2     explanation for the difference between what I find in the log-book and

 3     the answers you have given me a minute ago, if you have one.

 4        A.   I'll happily explain, but I can't be as quick and precise as you.

 5             I did not at any time deny what you have read out.  It was not my

 6     intention to deny certain events or activities.  I'm trying to explain,

 7     though, why I may not be aware of some of them, if they indeed took

 8     place.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say your answers to the extent you said you

10     didn't know, it's just your lack of awareness.  And, apart from that, you

11     do not deny that anything I have read may have happened.  Is that ...

12     even if you said that it did not happen in the previous answers.

13        A.   As regards my information, I don't know of certain things.  I

14     certainly cannot deny that something may have happened, but the case may

15     have been that I was not informed or was not present.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it to that.

17             Mr. Weber, we are -- if could you make it five minutes, that

18     would be preferable.  Again, we need the indulgence of the -- of those

19     who are assisting us.  So could you try to be as brief as possible.

20             MR. WEBER:  I'll do my best, Your Honours.  May I proceed?

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Weber:

22        Q.   Mr. Janjic, today at transcript page 45, you were asked about the

23     special police in Potocari.  I'd like to take you to one of your previous

24     answers from the Blagojevic case.  On page 9780, you were asked whether

25     they ever informed you or told you who had given the order to carry out

Page 11068

 1     activities that you were able to observe them carrying out.  That is, the

 2     separation of the men from their families.

 3             You subsequently stated:

 4             "I asked the policemen who were next to me why this was being

 5     done.  They just explained what I had heard before, that Mladic said that

 6     that is the way it -- it would be done" -- sorry.  Excuse me, "... that

 7     it would be.  And that they were working in accordance with the plans."

 8             When was it that these special policemen told you that Mladic

 9     said that that is the way it would be done?

10        A.   You're right, I was told that on the 12th.

11        Q.   And where were you when these special police told you that?

12        A.   I was already in Potocari.

13        Q.   You make a reference in your earlier testimony that, "... they

14     just explain what I had heard before."

15             What did you hear before, and from whom?

16        A.   I heard that from my police members, military police members, who

17     actually told me the same after General Mladic addressed the crowd of

18     people.  He said that that the women and children would be transported

19     first and that the men would follow in the course of the day, but later.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please quickly have

21     65 ter 24511.

22        Q.   Mr. Janjic, being called up onto your screen is an expropriation

23     of materiel supplies order dated 26 September 1995 from the Main Staff of

24     the Army of Republika Srpska.  In the heading of this order, it says that

25     the commander of the Main Staff is issuing this order regarding to the --

Page 11069

 1     related to material supplies from UNPROFOR base in Potocari village.  The

 2     remainder of this order lists the items that were to be expropriated from

 3     the UNPROFOR base in Potocari.  My first question to you is:  Are you

 4     sure that materials were taken from the UNPROFOR base on the dates that

 5     you've described or whether they happened at some time later?

 6        A.   And what date is that?  I said that I was there from the 15th to

 7     the 20th and much later and that there were lorries upon lorries leaving

 8     the area loaded with the stuff.  I really did not pin-point the date, did

 9     I?

10        Q.   Okay.  It's not important.  In this order, there's no reference

11     to any food supplies being taken.  In fairness - and the Prosecution is

12     aware - we do have another document which is not currently on our 65 ter

13     list, which does indicate -- it's date 14 July 1995 from the command of

14     the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade which indicates that there were

15     receptacles for transporting bread, of which there were five, and

16     receptacles for transporting food, for which there were five.  Does this

17     information refresh any of your memory with respect to either the date or

18     the items that were present at the UNPROFOR base?

19        A.   As far as food is concerned, I adhere to my previous statement.

20     There was a huge quantity of food and all that food was unpacked by us.

21     We used this.  We served ourselves to it at that time and much later for

22     a long time after that.

23             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I see the time and I'll let the witness

24     stand.  However, I would ask just so it's available to the Chamber that

25     we bar table at this time 65 ter 24511, and Ms. Stewart has informed me

Page 11070

 1     that the second document, if we could just have it marked for

 2     identification for the time being, is 65 ter 28896.  And we're happy to

 3     wait for further discussions with the Defence concerning whether or not

 4     28896, whether there's any objection or any other matters.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the document on our screen at this

 6     moment tendered from the bar table, any objections?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, not to this document.  I'm a

 8     little bit confused, Your Honours.  This document, 2886 is something that

 9     we --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  One second.

11             This document is now tendered by the Prosecution from the bar

12     table.  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

13             Please remain seated, Mr. Mladic.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24511 receives number P1449,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P1449 is admitted into evidence.  And the other

17     document, where Mr. Weber asked it to be marked for identification,

18     Madam Registrar, was number ...

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P1450, Your Honours.  But may I just

20     mention the document is not available in e-court.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll have to wait until a later moment,

22     Mr. Weber.  We can't afford at this moment to continue any further.

23     Check whether the document you had in mind is in e-court, and we'll

24     then ...

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 11071

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Time are a changing quickly sometimes.  It's now in

 2     e-court.

 3             Madam Registrar, could repeat the 65 ter number and the

 4     provisionally assigned number for this document to be MFI'd.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28896 receives number P1450,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, anything else?  Any further questions?  But even

 9     then, I would invite you to keep it as short as possible.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions arising from the

11     Prosecutor's question.  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

13             Mr. Janjic, this, then, concludes your testimony in this court.

14     I would like to thank you very much for having come to The Hague and

15     having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and by

16     the Bench.  You're excused, and I wish you a safe return home again.

17             You may follow the usher.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and everybody in the

19     courtroom.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I had two procedural issues, but I do not dare to

23     raise them at this moment.  I thank very much all those assisting us

24     around this courtroom for their patience.

25             And we adjourn.  And we resume Tuesday, the 14th of May, in this

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 1     same courtroom, III, and we'll start at quarter past 2.00 in the

 2     afternoon and we'll continue until 7.00.

 3             We stand adjourned.

 4                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of May,

 6                           2013, at 2.15 p.m.