Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11169

 1                           Thursday, 16 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Mr. Registrar, would you

 6     please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             The Chamber was informed that there was a brief preliminary

11     matter to be raised before we start.

12             MS. MACGREGOR:  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. President; good morning,

13     Your Honours.

14             After meeting with the witness in preparation for her testimony,

15     the Prosecution is seeking to redact two sentences from her proposed

16     92 ter statement, and these sentences are in paragraph 9 of her

17     statement.  The Prosecution will not be relying on these sentences as

18     part of her evidence.  This redacted version has been uploaded into

19     e-court with the same 65 ter number as the original statement, and it

20     also has been provided to the Defence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And now the Chamber is wondering which two

22     sentences you are not relying on.  If you could say the -- perhaps just

23     the first few words.  You said it was in paragraph --

24             MS. MACGREGOR:  It's in paragraph 9.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  In paragraph 9.  We have no paragraphs on the

Page 11170

 1     version which is attached to the 92 ter motion, but I do understand from

 2     one of my colleagues that it is the paragraph starting with:  "When I was

 3     in Potocari, I saw."

 4             MS. MACGREGOR:  It is, Your Honours.  And the new version also

 5     has numbers that has been uploaded.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MS. MACGREGOR:  So I will begin the sentence where the redaction

 8     starts.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MS. MACGREGOR:  "I was there when Mladic said," and the redaction

11     continues through, "I also heard when the males were killed."  Does that

12     explain the two sentences?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And then we continue where it was, "I was on the

14     right side."

15             MS. MACGREGOR:  That is correct.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that where we restart, then?

17             MS. MACGREGOR:  It is, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.  That is clear.  If there's nothing

19     else, then the Chamber can be brought into the courtroom -- the witness

20     can be brought into the courtroom.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you hear me in a language you understand?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

Page 11171

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you look at the Bench, you'll see who is speaking

 2     to you at this moment.  I am speaking to you.

 3             Witness, before you --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- give evidence, you are required to make a solemn

 6     declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

 7     but the truth.  The text is handed out to you.  I do understand that you

 8     can read.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I solemnly declare that

10     I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                           WITNESS:  SALIHA OSMANOVIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mrs. Osmanovic, we'll start your examination by the

16     Prosecution.  The Prosecution will first examine you, and Ms. MacGregor

17     will put the questions to you, and you'll find Ms. MacGregor to your

18     right, close to you.

19             Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

20             MS. MACGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           Examination by Ms. MacGregor:

22        Q.   Good morning, Mrs. Osmanovic.

23             MS. MACGREGOR:  Could I please ask that 65 ter 28891, the English

24     version of this document, be brought up.

25        Q.   Ms. Osmanovic, I've asked for a document to be loaded onto your

Page 11172

 1     screen in front of you, and while that is loading, did you provide a

 2     statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in 2000 about what happened to

 3     you during and after the war?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.

 5        Q.   Yesterday, was your statement read to you in B/C/S?

 6        A.   Yes, it was.

 7        Q.   Now, if you can please look at the first page of the document

 8     that's in front of you.  The English version on the bottom right-hand

 9     side, are you able to see that?

10        A.   Yes, I can see it.

11        Q.   Do you recognise your signature on the bottom?

12        A.   I do.  It is my signature.

13        Q.   Does that statement reflect the answers that you gave during that

14     interview?

15        A.   Yes, it does.

16        Q.   And was the statement true to the best of your knowledge when you

17     gave it?

18        A.   Yes, it is true.  It is correct.

19        Q.   Would you give the same answers in substance if you were asked

20     the same questions?

21        A.   Why wouldn't I?  Of course.

22        Q.   Now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the

23     truthfulness and accuracy of your statement?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25             MS. MACGREGOR:  Your Honours, we move for the admission of this

Page 11173

 1     statement as this witness's Rule 92 ter statement.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  No objection, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  P1461, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P1461 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed,

 6     Ms. MacGregor.

 7             MS. MACGREGOR:  Thank you.  May I now read a short summary of the

 8     witness's evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You have explained to the witness that it is -- what

10     the purpose of it is?

11             MS. MACGREGOR:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please be patient, Ms. Osmanovic.  The summary

13     of your testimony will be read now.

14             Please proceed.

15             MS. MACGREGOR:  Thank you.

16             Saliha Osmanovic is a Bosnian Muslim who lived in Dobrak in the

17     municipality of Srebrenica when the war broke out.  In May 1992,

18     Mrs. Osmanovic fled to the town of Srebrenica where she lived with her

19     husband and two sons until the town fell in July 1995.  On 6 July,

20     Mrs. Osmanovic's youngest son, Edin, who was 17, was killed by a VRS

21     shell.  On 11 July, Mrs. Osmanovic's other son Nermin who was 18 and her

22     husband Ramo fled through the woods toward free territory.  She never saw

23     them again.  Fourteen years later, she learned that their remains were

24     found.

25             On 11 July Ms. Osmanovic fled to Potocari.  In Potocari she saw

Page 11174

 1     General Mladic taking to the crowds of refugees.  After spending one

 2     night there, Mrs. Osmanovic was directed to board a truck.  The men,

 3     including her father-in-law, were separated from the women and some were

 4     taken to an unfinished house along the road.  The remains of

 5     Mrs. Osmanovic's father-in-law were eventually found.

 6             Mrs. Osmanovic and other prisoners, mostly women, were taken to

 7     Tisca and walked to free territory.  Since the war, Ms. Osmanovic has

 8     lived in many locations.  She relies on state assistance provided as

 9     compensation for her missing family members.  She does not receive a

10     pension for her husband.  Since the war she has lived alone and feels she

11     has lost everything that matters.

12             Your Honours, that concludes my summary.  May I now proceed with

13     the examination of the witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You may, but let me first address the witness very

15     briefly.

16             Mrs. Osmanovic, I do understand that hearing the summary of your

17     statement to be read to you is emotional for you.  If at any point in

18     time you need a short break or you want to just drink a bit of water,

19     don't hesitate to ask me time for that.  So as long as you feel

20     sufficiently strong to continue, we'll do so.  If you feel that you need

21     a short break or that you are in need of anything else, tell me as well.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll ask, then --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no need.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Ms. MacGregor will now put the questions to

Page 11175

 1     you.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. MACGREGOR:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Mrs. Osmanovic, in your statement from 2000 - and that's at

 5     paragraph 7, Your Honours - you say that your husband Ramo and son Nermin

 6     left when Srebrenica fell to try to walk through the woods to safety.

 7     Did Ramo's cousin Kemal Osmanovic go with the men in the woods.

 8             MS. MACGREGOR:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I do believe the

 9     witness answered but I didn't hear a translation and I don't see one on

10     the transcript.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we check the microphone is close enough

12     to the witness.  Could you please repeat your answer to the question

13     your -- the question was:  Did Ramo's cousin Kemal Osmanovic go with the

14     men in the woods?  Did he?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They left together to the forest.

16     I received information that they were seen in the forest, but I don't

17     know what happened afterwards.

18             MS. MACGREGOR:

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did Kemal tell you about being with Ramo and Nermin

20     in the woods?

21        A.   Yes, he did.  He did tell me after all of it that he did see him

22     and that Ramo went ahead to see where they would go through.  However, he

23     was caught.  I don't know what ensued.  I wasn't in the forest.  I was in

24     Potocari.  I don't know what happened.

25        Q.   And did Kemal tell you about when Ramo and Nermin last spoke to

Page 11176

 1     each other in the woods?

 2        A.   Yes, on 13th.  Kemal said he saw Ramo on the 13th and that he

 3     talked to him in the forest.  It was in the forest, not on a meadow.  As

 4     I told you, we had separated and I don't know what followed.  He said he

 5     just went to do some scouting to see where they would go through and then

 6     Ramo was caught, as well as the others, and killed.  They're gone.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. MACGREGOR:  I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a clip from

 9     the Srebrenica trial video, and this is Exhibit P00147.  Excuse me for a

10     moment.  Pardon, Your Honours, P01147.  And the clip starts at minute 18.

11     Thank you.

12        Q.   Mrs. Osmanovic, if you can watch the video on the screen in front

13     of you.

14             MS. MACGREGOR:  Your Honours, I think I need to correct the

15     transcript.  It begins at minute -- 18 minutes.  Thank you.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MS. MACGREGOR:  And, Your Honours, the clip has an ended at

18     18 minutes and 57 seconds.

19        Q.   Mrs. Osmanovic, do you recognise the man that's featured in that

20     video?

21        A.   Of course, I do.  This is my man.  He was calling out our son

22     Nermin and the others to come down, as I've explained, when he went ahead

23     to look for a way through.  That's what I know.  This is it.  So he's

24     saying, "All of you, come."  It was no genocide.  It was horror.

25        Q.   In 2000, when you originally gave your statement, you did not

Page 11177

 1     know what had happened to Ramo and Nermin.  Did you ever find out what

 2     had happened to them?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Were you able to bury their remains?

 5        A.   Yes, I was.

 6        Q.   And when was that?

 7        A.   It was in 2009.

 8        Q.   And for the 14 years that they were missing, did you know

 9     anything about what had happened to them?

10        A.   Yes.  Well, I watched TV, and I read it for the first time in the

11     newspapers, and I saw my man.  That's what I saw.

12        Q.   Are you talking about the video just now?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes.

14        Q.   And while they were missing, did you hold out any hope that they

15     might be alive?

16        A.   Yes, I was hoping.  I couldn't imagine things would turn out this

17     way.  I couldn't believe it.  My husband used to work in Belgrade, and we

18     had family friends.  What happened, happened.  The whole world can see.

19     That's how it went.

20        Q.   In your statement at paragraph 8, you state that you went to

21     Potocari on 11 July.  Did you go to Potocari from the town of Srebrenica?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   And how much time did you have to prepare to leave your house in

24     Srebrenica?

25        A.   I didn't reside in Srebrenica but in Dobrak, in my house.

Page 11178

 1     However, I was a tenant in Srebrenica.  We were expelled on the 8th of

 2     May and went to Srebrenica in 1992, where we stayed until 1995.  We

 3     simply ran out of our house and set out.  What preparation?  They said,

 4     "Potocari, good luck."

 5        Q.   And when you say "they" --

 6        A.   No preparation.

 7        Q.   When you say, "They said 'Potocari,'" who are you referring to?

 8        A.   Well, they did.  Mladic.  Mladic said Bratunac, Potocari.  I

 9     didn't even know this Mladic.  He said straight to Bratunac and Potocari,

10     but my municipality's Bratunac.  I married in Srebrenica.  I thought

11     there would be another round of slaughter at the stadium in Bratunac when

12     we were stopped in Potocari.

13        Q.   And when you say that Mladic said to go to Bratunac and Potocari,

14     are you referring to a video you've seen of him in Srebrenica?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Have you seen a video --

17        A.   When we arrived in Potocari, that's when he said it.  I saw it.

18        Q.   Now, up until the moment that you boarded the bus in Potocari, do

19     you feel like you could have stayed in Srebrenica if you wanted to?

20        A.   Stay?  Where?  We were in hell.  There was hell when the Serb

21     army came in.  I knew some of them.  I knew a teacher from Bratunac.

22     There was chaos.  How could we stay when we were being told to pack up?

23     Mladic said, "Go to Bratunac, and whatever possessions you had, leave

24     it."  I was close to him.  Not all of the witnesses could come close.  He

25     said the Serb army would come in.  He distributed some chocolates to the

Page 11179

 1     children, and he spilled some water and gave to the people.  I know that.

 2        Q.   In your statement, at paragraph 10, you say that your

 3     father-in-law was separated from you in Potocari and taken to an

 4     unfinished house.  Do you know what happened to him?

 5        A.   No.  I don't know.  And not only with him.  They were being

 6     separated on the left-hand [Realtime transcript read in error

 7     "right-hand] side to the house.  I know the host of that house, and we

 8     were on the other side, and we went to first Bratunac and then Tisca.  We

 9     were separated.  I can't even describe what happened.  It happened as it

10     did.  He's gone.  Many people are.  Now, what happened there and who

11     separated, I don't know.

12             MS. MACGREGOR:  Your Honours, I think -- the translation I heard

13     was "left-hand side" and I see that the transcript says "right-hand

14     side."  So I'm not sure if I heard correctly or not.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It will be -- the transcript will be verified on the

16     basis of the audio, Ms. MacGregor, and special attention will be paid to

17     this portion.

18             MS. MACGREGOR:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Unless one of the parties considers it at this

20     moment of such relevance that it should be clarified immediately.  Please

21     proceed.

22             MS. MACGREGOR:

23        Q.   Were the remains of your father-in-law ever found?

24        A.   Yes, they were.

25        Q.   And when you gave your statement in 2000, you were living in a

Page 11180

 1     house that your brother had bought for you.  Do you leave there now?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Where do you live now?

 4        A.   I returned to my house in Dobrak.

 5        Q.   And do you live with anyone?

 6        A.   I live alone in my house.

 7        Q.   Have you lived alone since Ramo and Nermin left through the

 8     woods?

 9        A.   I have lived alone, yes.  Well, there were some people around who

10     had been driven out, but I have -- I used to live in my brother's house

11     alone as I do now in my house.

12        Q.   And how are you able to support yourself financially?

13        A.   Well, it's okay.  I receive some disability pension.  All in all,

14     it's good, as long as it's not in Srebrenica.

15        Q.   Have you ever been employed in your life?

16        A.   No.  I was a housewife.  My husband worked, and I tended to the

17     house.

18             MS. MACGREGOR:  Your Honours, I have no additional questions for

19     the witness, and I also will not be offering any other associated

20     exhibits through the witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. MacGregor.

22             Before you start your cross-examination, I would have one

23     additional question for the witness.

24             Ms. Osmanovic, you told us that you knew that chocolates were

25     distributed, as you said, by Mr. Mladic, and water.

Page 11181

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you -- you said you knew that.  You knew that

 3     for sure.  Did you see that yourself, and did you --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw it with my own pair of eyes.

 5     I saw it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So did you see it when you were there at the time,

 7     or did you see it on a video at any later stage?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Potocari, that's where I saw it.

 9     It can't be in the footage, as if I saw the footage and then came to tell

10     you this.  I saw him in Potocari.  He said, "Whatever possessions you

11     had, discard of those, and the Serb army's going to come in."  That's

12     true.  I saw him.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.  Ms. Osmanovic, you'll

14     now be --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You will now be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic.

17     You'll find Mr. Ivetic to your left, standing there, and Mr. Ivetic is a

18     member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

19             Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

22        Q.   Madam, I will try to conclude my examination as briefly as

23     possible, and I would only ask you to pay attention to my questions --

24        A.   Thank you.

25        Q.   I will only ask you to pay attention --

Page 11182

 1        A.   Very well.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Let's begin.  Now, first of all, I'd like to ask you in

 3     relation to your Rule 92 ter statement, and it's page --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  It's P1461, and it will be page 2 in both the

 5     English and the B/C/S, and the paragraph that is marked with the

 6     number 7.

 7        Q.   And, madam, in this part of your statement, you discuss how your

 8     husband and son left and tried to walk to safety with other men through

 9     the woods.  What I want to know is if you saw them when they left so as

10     to know their appearance and what they took with them.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   On that occasion when they left, did --

13        A.   What would they carry with them?  They just left as they were on

14     that occasion.  They went to Kazani.  It was the place called there [as

15     interpreted].  They fled Srebrenica in 1992.  They were not able to carry

16     anything with them, either food or anything.  Why would they?

17        Q.   Ma'am, the question I have for you is on the occasion when they

18     left, did either your husband or your son have in their possession any

19     weapons or explosives?

20        A.   No.  How -- how would that be possible?  Weapons and explosives

21     in Srebrenica?  Everything was confiscated.  UNPROFOR is the best placed

22     to tell you what the people in Srebrenica had.

23        Q.   Thank you, ma'am, and we have had evidence from UNPROFOR.  I'd

24     like to focus now on what you know.

25        A.   Thank you.  I'm glad of that.

Page 11183

 1        Q.   Do you know who made the decision that the males were supposed to

 2     go to the woods while the females and children were to go to Potocari?

 3        A.   How can I know that?  I was not a person in charge.  I was not a

 4     commander.  How could I know that?  I don't know.  Why are you asking me?

 5        Q.   Madam, earlier --

 6        A.   There were people in Potocari as well, young people.  It was

 7     hell.  People scattered in all directions.  They were fleeing.

 8        Q.   Madam, today in the direct examination conducted by the Office of

 9     the Prosecutor, at temporary transcript pages 9 through 10, you were

10     asked about the preparations you had before leaving the residence in

11     Srebrenica for Potocari, and you told them they told you to go to

12     Potocari, good luck, and now you've identified that you claim Mr. Mladic

13     is the one that said to go to Potocari.  Is that your testimony, or did

14     someone else in Srebrenica advise you to go to Potocari?

15        A.   There was a lady, but Mladic didn't tell us to leave Srebrenica,

16     because Srebrenica had been shelling.  There's a difference between

17     Srebrenica and Potocari, the town.  That's what I said.  I know what I

18     said.  Mladic told us that in Potocari on the 12th, when the whole group

19     of people was there.  He didn't tell us anything in Srebrenica.  And you

20     know, it was chaos and hell in Srebrenica.  There was shelling.  There

21     were aircraft.  It was hellish.  So it was possible [as interpreted] for

22     Mladic to tell us that in Srebrenica because nobody knew what they would

23     do or what they would -- where they would go.  I know what I was talking

24     about.

25        Q.   Thank you, madam, for the clarification of when and where you

Page 11184

 1     encountered Mr. Mladic.  I'd like to focus on the time period before you

 2     left for Potocari, and again I'd like to ask you what was the -- did

 3     anyone tell you to go to Potocari, and, if so, who?

 4        A.   Let me tell you this:  You know, when people set off, you don't

 5     know where you're going, to which side.  Just like if somebody started

 6     shooting here, I would join the people and go with the crowd.  There was

 7     no one who could tell us anything.  It was hell.  There were shells.  We

 8     were close to Serbia, Skelani.  I cannot say that I saw my neighbours in

 9     Potocari, but I did see Mladic, believe me.  I know that.  I'm not a

10     fool.  If I had seen some of my neighbours, I would tell you, I saw this

11     and this person.  But there was shooting coming from SerbiaSerbia

12     committed genocide.  What's the use of their apology now?  What use is

13     the apology?  I lost my husband.  I lost my sons.  I don't need these

14     kind of stories anymore.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mrs. Osmanovic, it's me now again who's addressing

16     you.  Look just in front of you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  What Mr. Ivetic would like to know is a few details

19     which he needs to know.  Could I first ask you, you said you left from

20     Srebrenica to Potocari.  Now, who -- did you leave from your house -- did

21     you leave from your house, and did you then walk to Potocari?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that after shelling had started?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 8th of May, we were at our

25     house.  Serbia and Bosnia are divided by the Drina, and the shooting

Page 11185

 1     started.  My husband used to work in Belgrade for a company that had

 2     projects in Algeria and other places.  He was in Belgrade, but he came

 3     home, and he was supposed to go back in his car.  We were simply at home

 4     without being aware of what was going to happen.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there for a second.  You said

 6     shooting had started.  Now --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- who did leave your home first, you or your

 9     husband with your son?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the last who left.  My

11     children left, my husband and Nermin.  They went to the woods.  I stayed

12     behind, but then we rejoined in the forest across the hill.  I was in

13     some villages over there, and then we went to Srebrenica.  We were in

14     Srebrenica, and that's it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  There may be some confusion about the time period.

16             MS. MACGREGOR:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  At this moment, Ms. Osmanovic, I am focusing on the

18     last day before you went to Potocari where you said you saw Mr. Mladic.

19     Now, you had been living for a few years in Srebrenica, or at least in a

20     village in Srebrenica, if I understand you well.  Now, when you last saw

21     your husband, was that when he left your home where you had been residing

22     for quite some time?  Was it there that you saw him for the last time?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We set off from Srebrenica.  I

24     lived in Srebrenica in Veselin's house.  My husband and my two sons,

25     that's where we lived in Srebrenica.  They headed off towards Kazani.

Page 11186

 1     One of my sons was killed on the 6th of July, and then on the

 2     11th of July they set off from Srebrenica.  There were thousands of

 3     people, and that is when I saw Mladic in Srebrenica.  No, I apologise.

 4     Not in Srebrenica, in Potocari.  That was on the 12th.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there for a second.  When your husband

 6     and your son left, as you said, for Kazani, when did you see them for the

 7     last time?  Was that when they left home or was that at any other moment?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We left the house all together and

 9     then we separated on the 11th.  They went to the woods and I to Potocari,

10     and I never saw them again.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there again.  You said you left home

12     together.  Who decided that you would leave your home?  Was it your

13     husband who said, "Let's go," or what happened?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't the only person who left

15     Srebrenica.  Thousands left Srebrenica.  Those who stayed behind

16     disappeared.  Who was to decide that?  Who did you expect to tell you

17     anything?  You -- you had to leave.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So you decided to leave home together, and you

19     joined a large group of people.  Is that what happened?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then there came a moment where your husband and your

22     son went in a different direction from where you went.  Do you remember

23     when exactly and where exactly your husband and son separated from you?

24     Was that in Srebrenica?  Was that on -- wherever it was.  Could you tell

25     us, if you remember.

Page 11187

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was in Srebrenica, up there in

 2     Srebrenica, I do recall.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, do you remember, what did your husband tell you

 4     when he separated with your son from you?  Did he -- what did he say, or

 5     did he say anything, anything at all?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  He told me to go with the

 7     other people, because my son, who was killed on the 6th of July, was

 8     buried in Kazan, and when Srebrenica fell he just told me, "Go with the

 9     other people and see what happens."  That's the last thing that he told

10     me.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he tell you why he went in that other direction,

12     or did you understand that he wanted to go in the direction of the grave

13     of your son?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you what was happening

15     at that specific moment, what happened.  I don't know.  I joined the

16     crowd.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And your husband did not explain why he

18     separated from you at that moment?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, he didn't.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I tried to explore some of the elements

21     I think you had on your mind you wanted to explore.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you very much for your

23     assistance.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic will now continue.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 11188

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Madam, at the time that your husband and son left through the

 3     woods on 11th July 1995, with the other males, was your husband still a

 4     member of Ibro's brigade of the Army of BiH in Srebrenica?

 5        A.   Yes.  Yes, he was.

 6        Q.   And could you please tell us, for those of us that are not from

 7     Srebrenica, who was this Ibro?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I heard of Ibro, but I don't know.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And was your husband an officer or was he an ordinary

10     soldier?

11        A.   He was an ordinary soldier.

12        Q.   Now, I'd like to take a moment to focus on the months leading up

13     to 11th July 1995.  During that time period, was your husband spending

14     time with you or was he spending time with Ibro's brigade, or was he

15     spending time with both?  If you could explain that for us.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I think if you listen carefully to the

17     witness, she explained, I think, from -- what her husband did.  So just

18     to give two options seems not to be the right thing.

19             Could you tell us what your husband did in the month before the

20     take-over?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was in the army.  He was both at

22     home and in the army.  I can't say contrary to that because that is the

23     truth.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

Page 11189

 1        Q.   Madam, during the time period in the month leading up to

 2     11 July 1995, when your husband was in the army, was he wearing a

 3     military uniform or civilian clothing?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I have no idea.  I know that he left the house in

 5     blue jeans, but I didn't follow him in order to see what kind of clothes

 6     he would be putting on.  I was just a housewife.

 7        Q.   And now, madam, I also have to ask you in relation to your sons.

 8     Were either of them also members of the Army of BiH in Srebrenica?

 9        A.   No.  No.  Why would children be?

10        Q.   Now, in addition to your husband and your son Nermin, am I

11     correct that your two brothers, Salko and Safet, also went with the

12     column of men from Srebrenica through the forest?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes, they did.  My brother Safet was searched for and

14     found, and Safet [as interpreted] went through the woods and left

15     Srebrenica.

16        Q.   If I can ask you, madam, with respect to your brothers, were

17     either of them part of the Army of BiH in Srebrenica prior to 11 July

18     1995?

19        A.   I don't know.  They were not close to me.  I was in the house.

20     There were shells.  I didn't venture out.  I don't know.

21        Q.   And --

22        A.   If they were, though, they had to defend themselves, because

23     Serbia was armed.  They had weapons.  We had nothing.  That's why we were

24     killed.

25        Q.   Madam, I promised I would have my cross-examination as briefly as

Page 11190

 1     possible.  The only way we can accomplish that, if you please try to

 2     focus on my questions and have your answers be focused on the questions

 3     that I've asked.  Is that understood?

 4        A.   Yes.  Please, ask me.

 5        Q.   In relation to Salko, am I correct that he was among those that

 6     successfully broke through the Serb lines to reach Muslim territory?

 7        A.   Yes, successfully, because he had been expelled from his native

 8     place of Zaluzje.  They wanted to kill him, but he was saved by a Serb,

 9     and he drove him all the way to Tuzla, put him on a bus and drove him to

10     Tuzla.  And after that he arrived in Srebrenica through the forest, and

11     then Srebrenica fell, and he headed off for Zepa, my brother Salko,

12     that's correct.

13        Q.   And --

14        A.   I even know the man who saved him.  He was a bus driver on the

15     line servicing between Srebrenica and Bratunac.  My brother was wounded

16     in Srebrenica.  He was not in the army.  I shoot at you, you shoot at me.

17        Q.   Well, now I'm confused, madam.  Earlier you said with respect to

18     your brothers that you did not know whether they were in the army or not,

19     and now you're saying that your brother Salko was not in the army.  Could

20     you please clarify for us.

21        A.   I don't know if he was in the army.  I know that he had been

22     expelled from his village.  That's what I told you.  And I told you that

23     his Serb colleague saved his life and drove him off to Tuzla, and he

24     prevented his being killed.  Then he went to Zepa, and two months later

25     he came to Srebrenica.  And even if he was in the army, so what?  One

Page 11191

 1     must live.

 2        Q.   Madam, we're just trying to get to the truth and the only way we

 3     can do that is by asking questions and receiving answers.  So I apologise

 4     if you are confused by my questions, but I'm just trying to clarify the

 5     details so that we have the full, complete picture.  Could you tell us

 6     the name of the driver that you say saved your brother?

 7        A.   I don't know any names.  I've forgotten the names.  I don't know

 8     the names.

 9        Q.   Fair enough.  Madam, Kemo Osmanovic, your cousin, am incorrect

10     that he, too, was a member of the column of men that left for the forest

11     on 11 July 1995?

12        A.   He told me, when I saw him after having crossed to the territory

13     in Tuzla, that he saw them in the woods, that Ramo wanted to try and find

14     a way out.  That's what he told me.  I don't know if they were together

15     and what was going on there.  I don't know what was happening up there.

16        Q.   As to your cousin Kemo, do you know whether he had previously

17     been a member of the Army of BiH in Srebrenica at the time that they set

18     out on 11 July 1995?

19        A.   I don't know.

20        Q.   Okay, madam, now I'd like to move briefly to another topic.  I

21     want to ask you about the situation in the enclave of Srebrenica in the

22     months leading up to July 1995.  With relation to the humanitarian aid

23     that was coming in, am I correct that the same was being offered for sale

24     on the black market by the Bosnian Muslim authorities of the army and

25     civilian government?

Page 11192

 1        A.   I don't know about that.  I have no knowledge about that.  I have

 2     no idea.  The trucks with food were coming, but the trucks were sent back

 3     at the Yellow Bridge, and whether they brought anything in, I don't know,

 4     and what happened with that.  I don't know.  I didn't become involved in

 5     politics.  I don't need politics.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask one clarification.  You said

 7     the trucks were sent back at the Yellow Bridge.  Is that what you heard,

 8     or is that what you saw yourself?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that.  People were telling

10     that trucks full of food were sent back.  I only heard of that.  I wasn't

11     able to see that.  I cannot see either the Yellow Bridge or the trucks

12     from my place in Srebrenica.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered my question.  Thank you.

14             Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

15             MR. IVETIC:

16        Q.   Just one further question on this topic before moving on, madam.

17     Did you have any personal knowledge or did you hear from others ever

18     about the existence of a black market in Srebrenica?

19        A.   I'm hearing of it just now.  I don't know what that is.  What's a

20     black market?  Can you please explain to me in a different way?  I don't

21     know.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, in view of the answer of the witness,

23     there maybe better sources of evidence to explore the black market.

24             MR. IVETIC:  I agree.  I agree.

25        Q.   I'd like to move now back to your 92 ter statement and it's

Page 11193

 1     paragraph 10 on page 3 in both languages.  And this -- this is the

 2     paragraph where you talk about an encounter with General Mladic and when

 3     he said that first the women and children could go and you all moved

 4     towards the buses and trucks.  And I have to ask you:  How close were you

 5     to Mladic on this occasion?

 6        A.   Well, perhaps 5 or 10 metres.  Let's say 10 metres.  I was close

 7     enough, because it wasn't possible for everyone to come close to Mladic.

 8     There were thousands of people who were unable to see or hear him but I

 9     was able.

10        Q.   And this encounter that is described in this paragraph of your

11     Rule 92 ter statement, was this the first encounter that you had with

12     General Ratko Mladic?

13        A.   Well, yes, it was.

14        Q.   And am I correct that that would have been, therefore, on the

15     12th of July, 1995?

16        A.   Yes, precisely so.  I saw him on the 12th, and I left Srebrenica

17     on a truck in the evening, and we went to Tisca.  At least that's what we

18     were told.  I thought that we were going to Bratunac.  Mladic said, "You

19     will be completely safe," but I was in such a stress and fear that I

20     didn't hear clearly, but on the way we encountered their army.

21        Q.   Now, you say that you left Srebrenica on a truck in the evening.

22     Did the encounter with General Mladic occur in the evening or during the

23     day time?

24        A.   It was daytime on the 12th.  There was chocolate.  They were

25     distributing chocolates and water to the people.  I know that.  And I

Page 11194

 1     boarded the truck towards the evening.  Not only me.  We were loaded

 2     group by group.  Some people were separated to the left, some to the

 3     right, on the way to Bratunac.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I was about to go to a video-clip of

 6     about a minute in length.  I see the time.  We could also have a break

 7     now.  It's up to Your Honours how to proceed.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time do you think in total you would still

 9     need?

10             MR. IVETIC:  Approximately 10 to 15 minutes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  10 to 15 minutes.  I am -- I was asking myself

12     whether we could have a late break and then -- but, of course, you might

13     want to consult with Mr. Mladic.

14                           [Defence counsel and Accused confer]

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, my client is agreeable to having an

16     extended sitting to try and accomplish the cross-examination of this

17     witness.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I suggest that you finish not later than

19     by quarter to 11.00.  Please proceed.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Madam, first of all, you mentioned that there was water and

22     chocolates being handed out.  Was there also bread being handed out by

23     the VRS soldiers to the Bosnian Muslim civilians that were gathered at

24     Potocari on the 12th of July, 1995?

25        A.   Yes, certainly.  They must have distributed, fed them, and then

Page 11195

 1     killed them afterwards.  It was an alleged distribution, told us to go,

 2     pass through --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I think it would be better -- it is clear

 4     that you are emotional under -- going back to what you experienced.  At

 5     the same time, we'd like to have answers to the specific questions, the

 6     question being at this moment:  When chocolates and water was

 7     distributed, was bread also distributed?  Apart from whatever other

 8     feelings you may have had, was bread distributed?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That answers the question.

11             Mr. Ivetic, could you put your next question to the witness.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

13        Q.   With the help of the Prosecution, I would like to take a look at

14     a video to see if this accurately depicts the incident you're talking

15     about.

16             MR. IVETIC:  This will be from the Srebrenica trial video, P1147.

17     It will be from the subvideo number 9266, and is the first segment that I

18     identified for the Prosecution going from 23 minutes and 52 seconds to

19     24 minutes and 31 seconds.

20        Q.   And, madam, I'd ask that you view this video and then I'll have a

21     few questions after we complete the same.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. IVETIC:  If we could stop.  And we have stopped now at

24     24 minutes and 31 seconds.

25        Q.   Madam, is this the incident that you have described in

Page 11196

 1     paragraph 10 of your Rule 92 ter statement, the encounter that you had

 2     with General Mladic?

 3        A.   I wasn't present there.  There were many people when he said

 4     that.  There were groups of people on the tarmac, on the road, and there

 5     was a meadow nearby, but I hadn't gone that far to hear him say that.  He

 6     probably did, but I wasn't there.  He just said that we will go to Alija,

 7     but I wasn't --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, what Mr. Ivetic would like to know is what

 9     you described as having seen -- being relatively close to Mr. Mladic,

10     whether what you see on the screen is the same moment or is this

11     different, and were you not present here when he spoke these words?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no bread being distributed

13     here, no juice, no water, no chocolate, in this footage.  Where we were

14     in the meadow, that's what I was talking about.  That was before.  As for

15     this, I hadn't gone this far.  He probably did say this.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   Are the words being spoken by General Mladic in this clip

19     consistent with the words as you remember them that you recall

20     General Mladic saying which you did hear?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness has explained that this was not where

22     she was present.  Whether it's consistent or not, we have the evidence of

23     the witness, we have this video, and whether there is any consistency or

24     inconsistency is a matter of judgement rather that anything else.  Please

25     proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 11197

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   Now I want to look at another segment of this same video, and

 3     with the help of the Prosecution I would now play the segment from

 4     27 minutes and 19 seconds to 28 minutes and 3 seconds, which should be

 5     the second segment that I identified for them.

 6             And, madam, again I'd like to have your assistance to watch the

 7     video first, and then I'll have some questions for you.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  And with that we can begin.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. IVETIC:

12        Q.   And, madam, do you recognise this incident?  Is this perhaps the

13     encounter that you had described in your previous testimony?

14        A.   Let me tell you, as for what he said, that's not what I heard.

15     You can see how many people there were.  But on the -- at the other

16     place, he went into the masses, and probably no one shot any footage

17     there to be able to hear what he told us.  He didn't say it to me alone

18     but to everyone else who was nearby.

19        Q.   Madam, is it -- am I correct that there were UNPROFOR soldiers as

20     well as a tape barrier separating the refugees from the VRS individuals?

21     Is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.  Yes, it is.  It is correct.  I knew what UNPROFOR looked

23     like.  I didn't know what was going on.  I couldn't be everywhere, but

24     where I was, there were thousands upon thousands.

25        Q.   I'm asking you is it your testimony that General Mladic crossed

Page 11198

 1     the tape barrier between the refugees and the VRS soldiers and proceeded

 2     into the crowd beyond the UNPROFOR soldiers by himself?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, if you want to have a clear answers, you

 4     should adapt your questions to -- first of all, you are now putting a

 5     different question from the previous one, and if you would -- yes.  Well,

 6     I don't know whether you're interested in hearing an answer of the first

 7     question, because there was no clear answer to that.

 8             Ms. Osmanovic, could you tell us, did you see at any point in

 9     time a red and white tape separating the group you were in from another

10     area?  Did you ever see such a tape?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  In all the trauma, I didn't

12     see it, in all that hell.  I was sitting -- well, not only he.  There

13     were Serb soldiers separating children and men to the left side, and we

14     were just sitting on the buses or the trucks.  Some people were left

15     behind.  It was all hell for me.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll stop you there.  I do understand how you felt

17     at the time, but you have not seen a red and white tape separating the

18     group you were in from others.  Is that well understood?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see it.  I only heard in

20     the evening some screams, some hell, some moaning.  No one could sleep or

21     anything.  I saw people.  I knew my neighbours from Bratunac.  They were

22     on foot, walking next to me.  One of them told me, his name is Salihad,

23     he told me not to be afraid.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Osmanovic, Mr. Ivetic will put his next question

25     to you.

Page 11199

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   Were there UNPROFOR soldiers separating the crowd of refugees

 4     from the VRS soldiers at the time when you encountered General Mladic?

 5        A.   No.  I don't know.  I only heard General Mladic say that, what I

 6     have already explained.  He said whatever possessions you had, discard

 7     them.  The Serb army will come in.  I saw him.  He said so.  Perhaps no

 8     one filmed it.  And what's the use of me repeating what I saw a dozen

 9     times?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Osmanovic, I think you've answered the question.

11     Carefully listen to the next question Mr. Ivetic will put to you.

12             MR. IVETIC:

13        Q.   Did General Mladic enter the crowd of refugees by himself?

14        A.   Let me tell you, I don't know if he was alone or whether there

15     was someone else in all that chaos and hell.  I can't recall if he was

16     alone.  There were just moments.  You don't know.  I couldn't understand.

17     They just told me it was Mladic.  I didn't know the man.  They said,

18     Mladic, Mladic.  I can't say that I saw Karadzic or Boris Tadic or

19     Nikolic or this or that when I saw Mladic and I heard him say that.

20        Q.   And, madam, I'd like to look at a -- well, first of all, the two

21     videos that we've already looked at, the demeanour of General Mladic, is

22     it similar to or different from the demeanour of General Mladic during

23     the encounter that you remember with him?

24        A.   Well, there was hell where he said that and when I saw him.  I

25     didn't take part in anything else.

Page 11200

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Osmanovic, Mr. Ivetic would like to know whether

 2     the behaviour of Mr. Mladic as you saw it on your screen a few minutes

 3     ago, whether that was similar to when you saw him, whether he was

 4     behaving differently or whether it was approximately the same when you

 5     saw him.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He passed by, and he said what he

 7     said.  He passed us by.  He said so.  I don't know.  This is better when

 8     he said that the children should go to Kladanj in the footage we saw,

 9     like he did to me.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand that you say he was a bit more

11     friendly on what you saw on the screen compared to what you saw and heard

12     him say?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what?  It is simple for me

14     to watch this now, but there was hell in Srebrenica.  I don't know how to

15     explain it or tell you.  I can't understand any of it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Ivetic.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   You said that General Mladic at that occasion told you to leave

19     your personal belongings.  What personal belongings did you leave?

20        A.   He said that we should discard our things, the Muslim people,

21     whatever we had on them, saying that the Serb army was about to come in.

22     He said so.  It can't be that he didn't.  He told us that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  What Mr. Ivetic --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If anyone had anything on them.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. -- Mrs. Osmanovic.  Did you have

Page 11201

 1     anything with you which you left after Mr. Mladic had said that you had

 2     to leave your belongings?  Did you have anything you were carrying with

 3     you and left, or --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had two photo albums with the

 5     pictures of my children.  I left them in Potocari.  What else could I

 6     have?  I left my house on the 8th of May and arrived in Srebrenica.  I

 7     didn't have anything, as a housewife.  What could I have?  Where is my

 8     husband?  I was in another person's apartment.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I left the albums in Potocari, the

11     pictures of my children.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us where you left them?  Did you just

13     drop them on the ground, or were they taken from you, if you remember?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the ground.  On the ground.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Next question, please, Mr. Ivetic.

16             MR. IVETIC:

17        Q.   Madam, at temporary transcript page 32, line 1, you said:

18             "He said that we should discard our things, the Muslim people,

19     whatever we had on them, saying that the Serb army was about to come in.

20     He said so.  It can't be that he didn't.  He told us that."

21             The question I have for you, then, is:  Is it your testimony that

22     this individual -- this individual you identify as Mladic came and told

23     this to the people before the Serb army came to Potocari?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I don't know.  I knew some of my neighbours from

25     Bratunac and Hranca and Kalimanici, from Bajina Basta.  I knew them,

Page 11202

 1     where I was seated.  I knew them.

 2        Q.   Madam, my time is limited.  I'd like to look at one more

 3     video-clip with you.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  And this will be the same video, the segment at

 5     24 minutes and 35 seconds, going through 26 minutes and 56 seconds.  And

 6     with the help of the Prosecution, if we could play that clip.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   Madam, did you have occasion to hear or learn from the other

10     refugees that a delegation of civilian representatives from Srebrenica

11     asked General Mladic to evacuate the civilian population out of

12     Srebrenica, those that desired to leave?  Was that something that was

13     talked about?

14        A.   No.  I don't know.  I didn't hear of it.

15        Q.   A similar question.  Did you have occasion to hear other refugees

16     talking about the last part that General Mladic said, that they wished

17     that the resolution to the crisis offered in 1993 had been accepted

18     earlier to peacefully resolve the crisis?  Was that something that was

19     talked about?

20        A.   I didn't hear about that, believe me.  I don't know.  I don't

21     know.  I wasn't interested in politics.  How would I know what was going

22     on?

23             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, madam.  Thank you for answering my

24     questions.

25             Your Honour, I have no further questions for this witness.

Page 11203

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

 3             Ms. MacGregor, any questions in re-examination?

 4             MS. MACGREGOR:  No questions on re-examination.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Osmanovic, this concludes your testimony in this

 6     court.  I would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to

 7     The Hague, and the Chamber understands that being taken back to the

 8     events in the mid-1990s must be emotional for you.  We appreciate that

 9     you came and that you have answered all the questions that were put to

10     you, and we wish you a safe return home again.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and thank you for having

12     invited me.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You may now follow the usher.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor.

16             MS. MACGREGOR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just to make one

17     comment.  I think it's evident that this witness obviously has some

18     confusion about what she remembers from seeing it personally versus what

19     she's seen in the video.  The only evidence that she has provided about

20     General Mladic that the Prosecution will be relying on is that evidence

21     that is in her statement at paragraph 10 referring to General Mladic and

22     that testimony that she gave today that is consistent with that

23     statement.  And I actually do have transcript references to places where

24     we will not be relying on her comments about the accused.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber will consider how to deal with the

Page 11204

 1     evidence given by this witness, and it is on the record that you said the

 2     Prosecution will not rely on everything, especially not where the

 3     Prosecution thinks that the witness may have observed matters on the

 4     video rather than in a live experience.

 5             We take a break, and we resume at quarter past 11.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.52 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

 9             MS. HARBOUR:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then could the witness be escorted into

11     the courtroom.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mrs. Malagic.  Before you give

14     evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text

15     is handed out to you now.  May I invite you to make that solemn

16     declaration.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  MIRSADA MALAGIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.  Mrs. Malagic, you'll

22     first be examined by Ms. Harbour.  Ms. Harbour is counsel for the

23     Prosecution, and you'll find her to your right.

24             Ms. Harbour, you may proceed.

25                           Examination by Ms. Harbour:

Page 11205

 1        Q.   Good morning, Ms. Malagic.  You testified before this Tribunal in

 2     the Krstic, Tolimir, and Karadzic cases; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to listen to your direct examination

 5     from the Tolimir case before coming to court today?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   If you were asked the same questions that you were asked in the

 8     Tolimir case, would you provide the same information in substance?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. HARBOUR:  The transcript of the witness's direct examination

11     from the Tolimir case is 65 ter 28892, and would now like to tender this

12     into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One additional question before we proceed.  I take

14     it that your testimony in the Tolimir case was to the best of your

15     knowledge in accordance with the truth.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Mr. Registrar?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  It becomes P1462, Your Honours.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P1462 is admitted into evidence.

20             MS. HARBOUR:  I would now like to read a short summary of the

21     witness's evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You have explained to the witness the purpose of it?

23             MS. HARBOUR:  I have done that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.  Ms. Harbour will now read a

25     summary of what is found in your testimony in the other case.

Page 11206

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MS. HARBOUR:  In May 1992, local Serb leaders in

 3     Mirsada Malagic's village near Bratunac gave the Muslims an ultimatum

 4     that they had to leave.  Ms. Malagic and her family fled into the nearby

 5     woods.  Between 1992 and 1995, she lived in a number of villages in the

 6     vicinity of Srebrenica and Potocari.  During that time, she and her

 7     family suffered from the deprivations inflicted on the refugees living in

 8     the enclave.  In particular, there was constant shelling in 1992 and into

 9     1993, and there was never enough food to satisfy the needs of the

10     overcrowded city.

11             On 11 July 1995, the witness and her family were compelled to

12     flee Srebrenica.  Her husband, two eldest sons, and brother fled into the

13     woods to try to reach Tuzla by foot.  Ms. Malagic was injured by shrapnel

14     when the Serb forces shelled around the UNPROFOR camp in Srebrenica.  She

15     made her way by foot with her younger son and her father-in-law to

16     Potocari.  During the evening of the 11th and the 12th of July, they

17     stayed in the Zinc factory in Potocari.  They could hear screaming and

18     moaning from nearby structures.

19             On 13 July, Ms. Malagic saw Mladic speaking to the crowd of

20     refugees in Potocari and assuring them that nothing would happen to

21     anyone.  As she made her way with her son and father-in-law to the buses

22     to be evacuated, Serb soldiers separated out her 70-year-old

23     father-in-law along with other men.  She and her younger son got on the

24     bus to be evacuated.  Ms. Malagic never saw her husband, her two older

25     sons, or her father-in-law again.

Page 11207

 1             And this concludes the public summary, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Harbour.  If you have any further

 3     questions for the witness, please proceed.

 4             MS. HARBOUR:  Yes.

 5        Q.   Ms. Malagic, I'm going to ask you a few questions first about

 6     your experiences in the period beginning in 1992.  In your prior

 7     testimony, you testified about being forced to leave your village of

 8     Voljavica and making your way through the woods to Srebrenica.  You

 9     testified at T 110 [sic] that:

10             "Srebrenica was deserted.  Private homes had been torched,

11     looted."

12             When you arrived in Srebrenica and you saw that scene, what

13     impact did that have on you?

14        A.   When we arrived in Srebrenica some 18 days after I had left home

15     in Voljavica, I was very disappointed.  It was a very difficult day for

16     me, much more difficult than the moments when I was leaving my home.  It

17     was because when you see so many torched houses in Srebrenica, all those

18     private homes, the homes of prominent people alongside two streets were

19     literally torched, and whatever I could hear and see and smell suggested

20     of burning.  Occasionally I would see a stray dog, but there was no one

21     else there.  It was a desert.  All was grey, without people.  When you

22     see your own town look like that, because you spend many years working

23     there, I used to work in the mine administration, the deserted town --

24     well, all I could do was sit down and tears began flowing in front of the

25     cultural hall.

Page 11208

 1             And then I realised that we were in a vicious circle with no way

 2     out.  We couldn't go any further at all sides.  In Potocari there were

 3     check-points.  We couldn't go anywhere.  There were Serb soldiers at all

 4     of the surrounding places, including Spat and the Zinc mine were in

 5     Serbian hands, because that's where we had to leave from.  My town or my

 6     place of residence was also abandoned because it was blocked, and at that

 7     time I began thinking where I brought my children to and why did I come

 8     here in the first place.

 9             For the first time I was afraid, not knowing how it would all

10     end.  There were many incidents, many murders, many tragic incidents that

11     we could see when we were still back in our house.  However, there was no

12     way out.  We couldn't go back, and even then we were surrounded.  Only

13     the Drina was there, which was always a border.  We couldn't cross it

14     over into Serbia.  Whoever managed to leave before that did, while the

15     other -- the others stayed in the villages.  We were one of the first to

16     go down into Srebrenica, which was deserted.  Everything was open, the

17     doors to apartments.  Houses were burned.  So you could take your pick

18     where to find accommodation.

19             We were in an apartment.  My second-oldest son had a fever, and

20     we stayed there for a few days.  After the initial four to five days, I

21     met with my brothers who survived in Potocari.  We then went to their

22     family house, which was still in good condition at the time.

23             I spent the entire summer of 1992 there, and we stayed there

24     until sometime in December 1992, when we had to leave.  We were exposed

25     to much shelling at the time, and many shells hit our family home, and we

Page 11209

 1     basically moved from one room to the next until we were forced to go down

 2     to the garage and had no where else to go.  Then my brothers decided that

 3     I with my children should go to Srebrenica.  We found accommodation

 4     there --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, sorry to interrupt you for a moment.  What

 6     Ms. Harbour wanted to hear from you whether -- perhaps not all the

 7     details of what you found but, for example, that it made you very

 8     depressive to see how the town was almost empty and that so much damage

 9     was there.

10             Ms. Harbour, it's up to you to use your time in such a way that

11     you -- and you asked for one hour and a half, which is compared to the

12     previous witness, three times as much.  Could I ask you to -- to try to

13     keep tighter control over your examination.

14             Witness, I hope you understand that we hear a lot of evidence

15     from many persons, sometimes very detailed, sometimes with less detail,

16     so Ms. Harbour will indicate to you where she is seeking the details and

17     where the overall impression would at this moment be sufficient to hear

18     of.

19             You may proceed, Ms. Harbour.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one correction on the transcript.

21     Ms. Harbour, you referred to transcript page 110 of the Tolimir

22     transcript, but it was 10010.  Just to correct line 11 of page 38.

23             MS. HARBOUR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Ms. Malagic, you have answered and anticipated indeed many of my

25     questions.  My next question for you is:  While you were living in the

Page 11210

 1     area of Potocari and Srebrenica in 1992 and 1993, did you or your family

 2     ever go hungry?

 3        A.   Yes.  Practically from day one after we'd left our home we

 4     suddenly didn't have any food.  So on the third day after our departure,

 5     my husband, my two sons, and a couple of relatives had to go back to our

 6     home over the night in order to collect any food that they could find

 7     because we were already short of food.  And that situation continued.  We

 8     were looking for food by going to our native villages, and we mostly went

 9     there during the night, and that was the only source of food that we had

10     because we were unable to carry anything with us when we left home.

11        Q.   Just to give the Chamber an example, was there a period of time

12     in January 1993 when this hunger affected you in a very personal way?

13        A.   Yes.  In early January 1993, actually towards the end of

14     December 1992, people were virtually dying of starvation, and myself and

15     my family were in the same position.  If you managed to get hold of any

16     food, you would keep that for your children.  So as a result of

17     starvation, I fell ill.

18             There was a doctor in Srebrenica who remained, and he didn't flee

19     anywhere, and we asked him for help, and at that worst of all moments he

20     managed to give me four intravenous vitamin injections.  I knew him from

21     peacetime.  He was an occupational doctor.  And he simply told me, "You

22     are hungry.  You are starving."  He couldn't give me any other

23     medication.  He tried to help me recover with those injections.  However,

24     after I received the third one on the morning at 9.00, this doctor was

25     killed that same day by a bomb that was dropped from an aeroplane.  The

Page 11211

 1     bomb hit the mosque.  His house was close to the mosque.  So as a result

 2     he and other residents of Srebrenica who lived nearby were all killed.

 3     After that --

 4        Q.   Let me interrupt you there.  I think that's sufficient to give

 5     the Chamber an understanding of what you went through.

 6             Can we now fast forward to early 1995 before Srebrenica fell, so

 7     around January 1995.  Was there enough food to go around in Srebrenica

 8     during that period?

 9        A.   No.  The winter and January of 1995, and especially during the

10     springtime, people had to walk to Zepa to fetch flour, because you were

11     happy even to have a slice of bread.  I had a sister in Zepa whom we used

12     to visit, and she offered us some food.  They had more food than we did

13     in Srebrenica.  I don't know how and why.  So we brought this food back

14     and distributed it.  We had one meal a day.  We divided the bread to our

15     children, one slice each, just in order to survive, and that all went on

16     throughout the spring of 1995.

17             The idea during that spring was to sow any piece of land and

18     soil, every green area that can provide some crops in order for people to

19     survive.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to now turn to the events beginning on

21     July 11th, 1995.  In the Tolimir case, you testified that after your

22     family set off together towards Srebrenica -- or towards the Srebrenica

23     UNPROFOR compound, your older brother, husband, and your older sons Elvir

24     and Adnan separated from you to try to reach Tuzla by foot.  And this is

25     at transcript page 10014, and 10017 to 18.  Where did you say good-bye to

Page 11212

 1     them?

 2        A.   Well, that was between the UNPROFOR compound and the hospital in

 3     Srebrenica near the former petrol station.  Let me just correct you.  You

 4     said Admir and Adnan.  Actually, those were Admir and Elvir.  Adnan was

 5     with me.  He was my youngest.

 6             We all arrived there together, but as I already said, shells

 7     started falling.  There was a huge crowd of people.  There was commotion.

 8     So there was simply no free space.  When the first shells fell, there was

 9     commotion, and I actually didn't have a chance to say good-bye to my dear

10     ones.  We just went our ways.  Adnan, my youngest son, and I and my

11     father-in-law thought we would be unable to walk such a long way through

12     the wood, and we decided to go to the UNPROFOR compound instead, whereas

13     they went the other way towards Kutlici.

14        Q.   Thank you for that.  Why did your father-in-law stay with you and

15     your younger son instead of joining the men to go to Tuzla?

16        A.   For a simple reason that he was poorly.  He was an elderly man.

17     He was 70 years old, and he didn't believe that he would be capable of

18     travelling such a long way and that he would try to seek shelter in the

19     UNPROFOR compound.  He believed that women and children would be at least

20     safe in that way.

21        Q.   Did you take anything with you as you left Srebrenica and went to

22     Potocari?

23        A.   Yes.  When we set off, I took with me only one bag with a loaf of

24     bread that I had baked in the evening, and one of my sons also had a bag,

25     but when I was wounded by the shell, I wasn't able of carrying the bag so

Page 11213

 1     I had to leave it.  And when my son and I arrived in Potocari, we

 2     virtually didn't have anything with us.

 3        Q.   You testified previously that on your way to Potocari, an

 4     UNPROFOR trucked passed by you, and you saw your eldest son Elvir and his

 5     friend in the truck and that they waved at you.  And this is at

 6     transcript page 10022 of your Tolimir testimony.

 7             MS. HARBOUR:  I'd like to please ask the court officer to bring

 8     up Exhibit P1137, and we'll focus on page 4.

 9        Q.   Ms. Malagic, a witness who was at the Potocari UNPROFOR compound

10     testified that the document which will come up on our screen was a list

11     that they made of the male population in Potocari on the 12th of July,

12     1995, a list which they later gave to DutchBat.  And that's transcript

13     page 9893 in this case.

14             Now, we have page 4 or -- in front of us.  Do you recognise your

15     son Elvir's information on this page?

16        A.   Yes.  Under number 22, Malagic, Elvir.  Voljavica.

17             MS. HARBOUR:  Thank you.  I'm finished with this document.

18        Q.   You testified previously that on the morning of 13 July 1995, you

19     heard General Mladic speaking, telling people that nothing was going to

20     happen to anyone.  And this is transcript page 10034 of your Tolimir

21     testimony.

22             Can I ask you, who was Mladic speaking to when he said this?

23        A.   Well, you know, there was a huge crowd of people there.  I didn't

24     have a watch at the time, so I can't tell you when was that, but all of a

25     sudden, after the night of the 12th of July, everybody wanted to leave

Page 11214

 1     Potocari.  Everything that they experienced during the night, including

 2     myself, forced those people to hurry up.  A few went outside into the

 3     street.  There was so many people there.  It was enormously hot.  There

 4     were many people.  There was a huge crowd.  So it wasn't possible for

 5     everyone to come close to the place where the Serbian soldiers and

 6     General Mladic came.

 7             Anyway, when they and he addressed the crowd, and the crowd was

 8     standing, I think that was within the compound of the former

 9     slaughterhouse, and next to it is the Srebrenica transport company, and

10     there was a barricade nearby that we later crossed over to board the

11     buses.  Anyway, he addressed this crowd of women, men, and children

12     closest to him had, but since there were so many people, we weren't all

13     able to be nearby, but a promise was made that enough buses would be

14     provided for evacuation, that nobody would come into harm's way, that we

15     shouldn't be afraid.

16             So in response, the people closest by applauded.  Probably at

17     that point in time they believed that that would be true, but it seems

18     that this was only for the cameras, and nothing that happened later was

19     even remotely close to what we had expected.  And when we arrived at the

20     barricade, nobody from Potocari was able to cross over.

21        Q.   Was Mladic in Potocari on the 12th of July as well?

22        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Although I couldn't see him then.  I was within the

23     Zinc company compound, but my sister was there.  She was seeing off her

24     daughters when a promise was made that women with babies would be

25     evacuated first.  She had a baby with her, and General Mladic and the

Page 11215

 1     Serbian Army arrived from Bratunac.  Then I saw buses and trucks, but

 2     they were far away.  I wasn't able to see who they belonged to until the

 3     next day when I crossed over the barricade and boarded it.

 4        Q.   So your sister told you that she had seen General Mladic on the

 5     12th.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 7        Q.   Could we return for a moment to the men in your family who fled

 8     into the woods from Srebrenica toward Tuzla.  You told the Court in the

 9     Tolimir case that on the 11th of July, your younger brother went toward

10     Potocari for food, and later your older brother, your husband, and your

11     sons went on foot into the woods.  And this was at transcript page 10014

12     in that case.

13             Did your younger brother manage to reunite with the group that

14     headed into the woods, and that is with your older brother and your

15     husband and your sons?

16        A.   Yes.  They reunited in Buljim, I think, or any of the villages up

17     there, and from there they proceeded towards Tuzla all together.

18        Q.   Did your brother survive the journey all the way to Tuzla?

19        A.   Yes.  Both my younger and elder brothers were lucky enough to

20     reach what we believed was the free territory, but when they came across

21     the first ambush at Kamenica, they separated and they lost sight of each

22     other and nobody was with anyone else any longer.  Only in Nezuci, after

23     having exited from the woods, did my brothers reunite, whereas my husband

24     and my sons never appeared again.

25        Q.   After you were evacuated from Potocari, what did you do to try to

Page 11216

 1     find your husband and your sons Admir and Elvir?

 2        A.   Well, the first people who emerged from the woods were driven to

 3     Zivinice.  That was actually a field or a point where they were brought

 4     on board buses and trucks.  I tried to go there and locate anyone.

 5     However, in that first group I didn't see my brothers either because they

 6     were not there.  They found a brother-in-law of one of my brothers who

 7     was in Tuzla, and they drove him to his father in Banovici, because my

 8     younger brother was unable to walk any longer.  They had to carry him to

 9     the nearby medical centre for treatment.  Only after a few days when he

10     recovered a little they managed to locate me, because I was staying in a

11     school in Zivinice where I was brought from the Tuzla airport, and that

12     is where I reunited with my brothers.

13        Q.   You told us in your prior testimony that you were never able to

14     reunite with your husband or your sons.  What was it like for you not

15     knowing where they were, your husband and your sons?

16        A.   Well, that was a great shock.  I looked at every man arriving

17     there, but when you set off there but you had a kind of premonition that

18     the one you're waiting for would not be there.  However, when I saw my

19     brothers, I was happy to see them survive, but I was equally shocked and

20     disappointed, and I had some bad premonition that something terrible had

21     happened to them and that they would never appear again.  Despite that, I

22     was hopeful during those days that they might appear, that they were

23     alive, and this is what kept me going with my life, this kind of

24     anticipation and expectation, but with every day that passed, it became

25     weaker and weaker, and we know what was eventually confirmed.

Page 11217

 1        Q.   In the Tolimir case, at transcript 10040 of that case, you told

 2     the Chamber that your father-in-law, your husband, and your middle son

 3     Admir had been found and buried.  Do you know where their remains were

 4     found?

 5        A.   Yes.  My father-in-law was found in a grave in Snagovo near

 6     Zvornik.  It's all Zvornik municipality.  And my husband and my middle

 7     son Admir were found at Zvornicka Kamenica.  A year later, my elder son

 8     Admir [as interpreted] was also found in Zvornicka Kamenica, and he was

 9     buried on the 11th of July of 2012, and we buried my husband and my

10     middle son in November 2010, which was 15 years after the fall of

11     Srebrenica.

12        Q.   Just to clarify the record, you just referred to your eldest son

13     Elvir -- or Admir.  That was actually Elvir; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I have only a few more questions for you today.  During your

16     testimony in the Krstic case, you told the Chamber about a statue or a

17     monument that you saw while you were walking around The Hague, and you

18     told the Chamber about its significance to you.  Now, before we talk

19     about what that statue meant to you, could you just describe what that

20     statue was and where it was?

21        A.   When I came in 2000 to testify in the Krstic case, we had some

22     time so we took a walk around the town.  I was in a hotel at the beach,

23     and I didn't know the city too well.  However, we came across a statue,

24     and this statue has woken something in me.  It is a woman glaring, and of

25     course since I didn't know the language, I asked the woman who took us

Page 11218

 1     for a walk what was written on the monument and what it represented.  She

 2     told us that that was a monument to the fishermen who were killed, that

 3     there were so many of them who killed -- who were killed that their wives

 4     and sisters were waiting for them for years and years, but none of the

 5     fishermen returned because there were lots of shipwrecks and other

 6     accidents.

 7             I saw myself in the statue of that woman who had such a lost

 8     sight on her face.  I didn't know either what was the destiny of my

 9     husband and my sons and other relatives.  And I wanted to try and find to

10     buy a small copy of this statue, because I thought that we were

11     comparable, because we were both gazing, only I was gazing through this

12     huge forest in which all our husbands, sons, and other men disappeared.

13     And this sentiment that emerged within me gave me hope to keep waiting.

14     However, in 2009, I received a first report from the centre in Tuzla that

15     the remains of my husband had been found.  A few months later, I received

16     a report that my middle son Elvir was found.  I had to go and identify

17     them, and we buried them, as I said, in 2010, on the 15th anniversary of

18     the fall of Srebrenica.  Then in 2011, I received another invitation to

19     come and identify my oldest son.  When I buried him at the memorial

20     centre in Potocari, that was the time when I buried my last hope with me.

21     All my close relatives, my entire family, was under the ground.  I had no

22     hope whatsoever.  There was no one that I could wait for.  The truth had

23     come out, and it became apparent that I'm really alone.

24             And I'm still cherishing this statue that I bought in this city

25     which I have visited for a fourth time this time.  I'm sorry that it had

Page 11219

 1     to be in that way, and I would like to thank everyone who gave me an

 2     opportunity to come here, to tell me what I think and how I feel, and to

 3     just give a piece of the truth that all my fellow countrywomen had

 4     experienced.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much for your testimony.

 6             MS. HARBOUR:  I have no further questions for this witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Harbour.

 8             Ms. Malagic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

 9     Mr. Stojanovic, you'll find him to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel

10     for Mr. Mladic.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam.  I deeply regret the loss

13     you have suffered and which cannot be compensated for.

14             Given the fact that we come from the same part of the world and

15     speak the same language, I just wanted to ask you to briefly pause

16     between question and answer so that we could have it all in the

17     transcript.  I will not have many questions for you.

18             I would kindly ask you to tell us the following:  When you

19     mentioned in your examination-in-chief that you left your village of

20     Voljavica, please tell the Court when it happened, to the best of your

21     recollection.

22        A.   On the 12th of May, 1992, at 7.30 p.m.  That's when I left my

23     home and my village.

24        Q.   Tell the Chamber the following, please:  To the best of your

25     knowledge, what kind of unit was it, what kind of people they were to

Page 11220

 1     give you such an order to move out?

 2        A.   I can't really say, or perhaps I won't be able to express myself

 3     the best way in terms of what kind of unit it was.  We had our people,

 4     our representatives in the local commune.  The adjacent settlement of

 5     Pobrdje, towards Bratunac, comprised the same local commune as Voljavica.

 6     Our delegates who went there to talk to them -- and before that

 7     check-points had already been erected at Pobrdje, and we couldn't go to

 8     Bratunac.  The people in question wore camouflage uniforms.  We didn't

 9     know who they belonged to.  We didn't know them.  We only received

10     representatives from that local commune in the course of those days.

11     They also came before while we were being disarmed.  We knew those

12     people.

13        Q.   Let me try to be more direct in my questions.  Is it correct that

14     one of those people who came and whom you remember regarding disarmament

15     and the taking away of weapons from your villages was Miladin Jokic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Is it also accurate that you remember him from that time as

18     someone who had worked in the police station in Bratunac?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you for another clarification, please,

21     concerning your life in Srebrenica between 1993 and 1995.  Tell the Court

22     who was it who went to fetch food in Zepa from Srebrenica, from your

23     household?

24        A.   From Srebrenica to Zepa, my husband went as well as my older son.

25     Of course they never went all together.  They changed, since it was a

Page 11221

 1     long way to travel.  Both my brothers went, too, and during that last

 2     winter -- actually, not the last one but the winter of 1993, or between

 3     1992 and 1993, it was my older brother who went, and he had trouble along

 4     the road because his feet froze.  There was much snow.  He was brought

 5     back from Zepa since he couldn't walk back alone.

 6        Q.   You heard them describe the passage between Srebrenica and Zepa.

 7     Was it unhindered, and did they have to go through VRS-controlled

 8     territory which was outside the demilitarised zone?

 9        A.   I didn't travel that route.  I don't know the route, but I do

10     know they had to be accompanied by someone who did.  I had a son-in-law

11     who hailed from Zepa --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Brother-in-law.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He knew what route to take, and

14     they mostly travelled at night.  I don't know what places they went

15     through along the route, though, because I never covered the distance on

16     foot.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Did I understand correctly that your sister lived in Zepa itself

19     or in a village nearby?

20        A.   She lived in Zepa at the time.  However, before the war she used

21     to live in Glodjani, which was 20 kilometres from Han Pijesak.  However,

22     the village had been torched and she fled to Zepa.

23        Q.   During your years in Srebrenica, was your husband engaged

24     militarily?

25        A.   At the beginning of the war all of us, that is to say, all of our

Page 11222

 1     men, were engaged, if you can call it that, because they stood some kind

 2     of guard along the separation lines.  Whichever village we came to,

 3     everyone saw us as refugees, and as such one had to be on duty, without

 4     weapons or anything, and I claim that positively.

 5             Given the fact that at the very beginning of the war, that is to

 6     say, less than two months after we left home, my husband's brother was

 7     killed.  In late 1992, another brother of his was killed when looking for

 8     food.  And after that, no one tried to force my husband to go, because he

 9     was the only person alive from the family.  So he only went to search for

10     food.  He went down to the Drina, to Voljavica, and in the direction of

11     Pavkovici because there was a field there and they gathered corn under --

12     from underneath the snow.

13        Q.   Were his brothers registered as the shaheed and were their

14     families as the Sehid families taken care of?

15        A.   The families of both of them, that is to say, their wives and

16     children left Bratunac before the war.  One of the wives was a refugee in

17     Slovenia, and she's currently in the Netherlands, whereas their son was

18     killed during the attack on Srebrenica.  As for the younger ones, they

19     had left Slovenia and they're also now in the Netherlands, so they were

20     not there in the war.

21        Q.   What about the two men, were they killed as the shaheed?

22        A.   It's difficult to answer that question, sir.

23        Q.   If you can't, please say so.

24        A.   I really can't answer that question, because as I said, they were

25     killed at the very beginning the war, especially the younger

Page 11223

 1     brother-in-law was killed by an air bomb, carrying a sack of corn on his

 2     back.  So he wasn't in any military operation.  He was literally

 3     gathering corn.

 4        Q.   Are you familiar with the plight of the Serb civilians, Serb

 5     population in the valley of the Drina, in Skelani, and in Kravica, in

 6     1992 and 1993?  Do you know anything about that?

 7        A.   I don't.  Between 1992 and 1993, as I explain to the Court, I was

 8     very ill and was bed-ridden at home.  My husband was with me, and he

 9     didn't go to Kravica.  And my children, of course, were there.  We were

10     simply trying to stay alive at that time.

11        Q.   I was cautioned that the term "shaheed" made its way into the

12     transcript.  Since we come from the same part of the world, can you

13     confirm that in B/C/S it could be interpreted as "soldier," or is there

14     another term to explain the word "shaheed"?

15        A.   Perhaps I can clarify.  You could answer that one way or another.

16     In my mind, that is incorrect.  My brother-in-law --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My father-in-law, who was 70 at the

19     time, according to the documentation in this unfortunate

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina war of ours, is treated as the shaheed.  If a

21     70-year-old person was a soldier, then I have to ask myself who can be a

22     soldier or a shaheed.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us this, please:  Were you ever informed by your

25     late husband what unit he belonged to and where he stood the guard you

Page 11224

 1     mentioned?

 2        A.   The initial guard duty occurred in the villages of -- in the

 3     village of Brezovica, before we even reached Srebrenica.  Later when we

 4     moved to Potocari, then they stood guard at Likari and Caus.  If you come

 5     from that area, you know what I am referring to.

 6        Q.   Did he ever tell you what unit it was and who was his commander?

 7        A.   I know that in Srebrenica it was said -- and that even after

 8     Srebrenica fell, people referred to it as the 20th Division.  They called

 9     it that, and that's all I know about those soldiers.

10        Q.   Between 1993 and 1995, did you know that many people, due to the

11     situation in Srebrenica and around Srebrenica, wanted to leave the area

12     and go to Tuzla or Sarajevo, or perhaps some other destinations

13     controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14        A.   Yes.  As far as I knew, it took place that spring of 1995.  So as

15     late as 1995.  That's when I heard some people say that they wanted to

16     leave Srebrenica and that something terrible will happen and that one had

17     to leave Srebrenica in any case.  I know that people wanted to leave, and

18     I know of some groups that took to the forest.  They must have used some

19     routes in order to reach Tuzla.  Some of them got through, although I

20     don't know by what route.  Others were perhaps killed and, for the most

21     part, all traces lost of those people.

22        Q.   What about your family and you during the period between 1993 and

23     1995?  Were you looking for a way to leave the area of Srebrenica?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Apologies.  Do you know that there were inhabitants in the

Page 11225

 1     enclave who went in the direction of Macedonia?

 2        A.   I only heard about that, but I don't know anything.  I heard some

 3     stories of some people going to Zepa and then trying to cross over from

 4     there into Serbia or further afield.  I don't know such routes, and they

 5     were only stories.  I'd rather not say they were correct or incorrect.

 6     It's only something I heard from other people.  There were always a lot

 7     of people around, and one could always hear stories.  However, it is not

 8     reliable information that I could confirm as true.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I will conclude before the break with just one more

10     question.  In the period between 1993 and 1995, was the black market in

11     operation, and were food articles and cigarettes as well as fuel being

12     smuggled in Srebrenica?

13        A.   As I said already, I don't know if it was because we were too

14     honest or too ignorant, my family and I didn't know about that.  We

15     didn't have money to buy things with, and we had no other sources of

16     supply.  I knew that people went to Zepa and brought coffee and salt.  So

17     one could buy that.  None of us smoked, so we didn't even think about

18     cigarettes.  At the market in Srebrenica, which barely functioned, one

19     could buy things.  For example, a kilogramme of salt cost 70 German

20     marks, and I could only dream of that.  I didn't have any kind of money

21     at the time.  So for three years we went on barefoot, thirsty, and

22     hungry.

23        Q.   You hail from the area of Potocari; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Your brothers' and your family home is in Potocari?

Page 11226

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Throughout the war, from 1993 to 1995, when the enclave -- once

 3     the enclave was established, your brothers lived in the area of Potocari?

 4        A.   No.  Only in 1992.  Until late 1992, we lived together in

 5     Potocari.  Then I went to Srebrenica as I said.  And they, too, had to

 6     leave, perhaps a month after me, before General Morillon entered

 7     Srebrenica.  There was a guided missile of sorts, although I'm not

 8     familiar with weapons, but I know that their house was demolished and

 9     they had to go to Srebrenica where they lived in an apartment.

10        Q.   Who did that apartment belong to that they lived in before the

11     war?

12        A.   I don't know.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Kindly slow down and

14     pause.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You are invited to slow down and to make pauses

16     between question and answer.

17             The witness has answered your last question that she doesn't know

18     to whom the apartment belonged.

19             Mr. Stojanovic, I'm thinking about --

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will conclude with this

21     question before the break, which I will repeat.

22        Q.   Do you know who the apartment where you lived belonged to before

23     the war?

24        A.   Yes.  It was a house just behind the cultural hall owned by the

25     municipality.  A man used to live there who worked in Banja Guber in

Page 11227

 1     Srebrenica.  He was a Muslim in that house where I lived in.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Please turn the microphone on.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Switch on your microphone --

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe this is a good time

 5     for our break, and after it I will move on to a different topic.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you give us an indication as to how much time

 7     you'd need?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  According to

 9     our plan, it will be shorter than envisaged, and we will conclude in the

10     one hour that we have left.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You'd say in the next session, within one hour

12     you would conclude, which also means that there's some time left,

13     Ms. Harbour, although limited time, for questions in re-examination.

14             We'll take a break, but could first the witness be escorted out

15     of the courtroom.  We'll take a break of 20 minutes.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break, and we'll resume at 20 minutes

18     to 1.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready, you may continue.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   Madam, I would like now to move on to the events of the 11th,

Page 11228

 1     12th, and 13th of July, 1995.  I'm going to ask you if it is true that

 2     already on the 10th of July, you were outside the UN compound in

 3     Srebrenica because you wanted to know how and which way you would go.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You were told to go back home, and the night between the 10th and

 6     11th, you spent in the flat where you were living at the time; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes, it is.

 9        Q.   On the 11th of July, you went again in front of the UNPROFOR base

10     in Srebrenica, and that is when you set off towards Potocari.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Who specifically told you to go to Potocari?  Whose idea was it?

13        A.   Well, at first this whole crowd of people - I wasn't alone

14     there - spent maybe one or two hours, I don't know, I didn't have a

15     watch, within the UNPROFOR compound in Srebrenica or what used to be the

16     old workshop as it was known.  We were not able to communicate with them

17     due to the language barrier.  Some people were climbing on the trucks,

18     because women with children believed that they would be evacuated.  It

19     was total commotion.  It was too hot.  The area was packed with people.

20     At one point we heard the sound of aircraft, and that is when two Dutch

21     soldiers, I don't know who they were, showed us with their hands towards

22     Potocari, because we couldn't communicate verbally, and they also pointed

23     at the aircraft trying to reassure us not to be afraid, because as far as

24     we were able to understand, bombing was -- was going to happen, or

25     air-strike.  That's how I understood them.

Page 11229

 1             Anyway, they showed us into the direction of Potocari with their

 2     arms, which we understood that we should go towards Potocari.  Nobody

 3     told us specifically that.

 4        Q.   During the bombing on the 11th -- or, rather, the flights of

 5     aircraft, were you able to see -- or you were not able to see the

 6     Serbian Army?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the answer,

 8     because there was no pause.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer.  The question

10     was whether you were able when the -- the aircraft were flying over,

11     whether you were able to see or not able to see the Serbian Army at that

12     moment.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   My next question was:  At that point on the 11th of July, was

16     your late husband and your sons already on the way in a different

17     direction, as you put it, towards the woods?

18        A.   Most probably, yes.  When we headed towards the UNPROFOR base,

19     they took the road towards Susnjari and Kutlici and the other villages.

20     I don't know what happened after I left.

21        Q.   Can you tell us, do you have any information at all who told them

22     to head for Susnjari?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Did you have any information at all at that period that

25     able-bodied men should head towards Jaglic and Susnjari?

Page 11230

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Did you have any direct or indirect knowledge of the fact that

 3     both the civilian and military authorities of Srebrenica had requested a

 4     couple of days before the 11th to enable the civilian population of

 5     Srebrenica to leave, and that happened during negotiations?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  How long did it take to cover that way between the

 8     UNPROFOR base in Srebrenica to the industrial complex in Potocari?

 9        A.   Well, time-wise I cannot give you an exact answer.  I might be

10     mistaken, but the distance is about 4 kilometres.  So if you take an

11     average man, it will be possible to walk, but the situation was that

12     there was a huge crowd of women with children, elderly people, and I said

13     that there were even wounded people among them, myself included.  We

14     walked along this asphalt road, but I don't know how long it took us to

15     reach Potocari.

16        Q.   Can you tell us, to the best of your estimate, what time in the

17     afternoon it was on the 11th of July, to the best of your knowledge?

18        A.   Well, we may have arrived in Potocari at around 4.00 in the

19     afternoon or 4.30 perhaps.

20        Q.   Do you remember that at one intersection before Potocari, if

21     viewed from the direction of Srebrenica, members of the BH Army were

22     directing able-bodied men to take this side road to the left to Jaglic

23     and Susnjari?

24        A.   No.  I didn't see any of that while I was on the road.

25        Q.   In your estimate, did you see General Mladic after you spent one

Page 11231

 1     or two nights in Potocari?  Please try to remember.

 2        A.   That first night between the 10th and 11th of July, and in the

 3     morning on the 12th of July, as I described, the Serbian soldiers entered

 4     Potocari.  That means on the 12th of July.  After that, given that I had

 5     been wounded, I wasn't able to move around a lot.  I don't know what time

 6     it was.  Maybe it was 11.00 or 12.00.  Anyway, at around noon, I'm not

 7     sure, I already said that my sister came, and she told me that the

 8     Serbian soldiers had come from the direction of Bratunac and that

 9     Ratko Mladic was with them.  Because I was surrounded by thousands of

10     people, I wasn't able to see that section that she was describing, but as

11     I said, it was from the direction of Bratunac.  I wasn't in the street at

12     all at the time.  I was on the plateau within the compound of the Zinc

13     factory with other people.  People were saying and shouting, but I

14     personally wasn't close enough to see him.

15        Q.   In your view, can you be sure that you spent one or two nights in

16     Potocari before you saw General Mladic in Potocari?

17        A.   Sir, the second night in Potocari was chaotic.  I personally

18     believe, and I believe that even if you or anyone else was there --

19     wouldn't be able to remember even what your name was in view of what was

20     happening during that night and that morning.

21        Q.   I understand that.  That is why I'm asking you.  Let me try to go

22     step-by-step.

23             Do you remember that at one point, and I would say that that was

24     on the 20th of July, 1995, which means shortly after you arrived in

25     Zivinice, you gave a statement to the state commission for the collection

Page 11232

 1     of facts about these events?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you remember that on that occasion you mentioned the date or

 4     the time when you saw General Mladic in Potocari?

 5        A.   One of those days when he used to say that the women and children

 6     and other men would be safe, that everybody would be evacuated wherever

 7     they wanted to go, if they wanted to go, and that is what General Mladic

 8     said personally in Potocari.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Let me just stop you for a while with this question:

10     When General Mladic was saying these things, did you personally have an

11     opportunity to see and hear?

12        A.   I was [Realtime transcript read in error "wasn't"] able to hear

13     him, but I wasn't able to see him because I was not near enough.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  I was able to hear

15     him, but I wasn't able to see him.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  There's a correction.  Yes.  Please

17     proceed.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   We are waiting for the record to be completed.

20             Do you recall that at any point you heard or saw this statement

21     of General Mladic being filmed?

22        A.   I wasn't able to see that.

23        Q.   Were you able to hear from anyone that his statement was recorded

24     on camera?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 11233

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, at the risk of creating further

 2     confusion, still the correction of the interpreter leads to a confusing

 3     transcript.

 4             The last thing I heard is that the witness told us that she was

 5     able to hear Mr. Mladic, but she was not able to see him.

 6             Witness, that is what you said, I take it.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance,

10     Your Honours.

11        Q.   Do you recall that in the course of the two days that you spent

12     in Potocari, bread and water in limited quantities were distributed?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Was the situation the same on both days, the first and the second

15     day that you spent in Potocari?

16        A.   On the second day, the 13th of July.

17        Q.   In your opinion, can you give us an estimate of the time when you

18     managed to board the vehicle that you mentioned and to head for Tisca and

19     Kladanj?

20        A.   I'm not sure what time it was, but I think it was at around noon

21     or maybe one hour in the afternoon, but it was a sunny day.  It was very

22     hot, and judging by the position of the sun, I think it may have been at

23     1.00 or 2.00 in the afternoon when we boarded the buses.

24        Q.   Can you describe for the Chamber what members of the UNPROFOR

25     were doing during this whole process?

Page 11234

 1        A.   You mean while we were boarding the buses?

 2        Q.   Both before and during the process of your boarding the vehicles.

 3        A.   Well, during the entire time that we spent in Potocari, I was on

 4     the road in front of the factory called the 11th of March where I used to

 5     work.  There was an APC parked there when we arrived in Potocari, but

 6     actually after we already arrived, the UNPROFOR soldiers returned us from

 7     the barricade.  It was not a barricade.  It was a tape that was

 8     stretched, and they made a motion with their hands that we should go back

 9     because there was no room left for any more refugees.  So my

10     father-in-law and my child and I decided to go back to one of those

11     factories.

12             Then I saw a soldier tied to an APC, and there was a soldier

13     lying on the APC, but I didn't know what was happening, in fact, but in

14     the days that followed, I cannot tell you exactly at what time, I was

15     able to see the soldier taking off his uniform and giving it to a Serb

16     soldier.  I don't know if he was forced to do that or what.

17             Now, having seen these images, I realised that these people can

18     do little for our sake.

19        Q.   Let me interrupt you there.  Did you at any point in time receive

20     any food, water, or medication from UNPROFOR members?

21        A.   No, not in the part where I was.  I didn't see that.  Perhaps in

22     the perimeter covered by UNPROFOR something like that may have happened,

23     but not on the street or in the factory building where we were.

24        Q.   Do you recall whether at any point in time between the place

25     where you were and the place where you entered the vehicle you had to go

Page 11235

 1     between UNPROFOR vehicles which were funneling you towards your vehicle

 2     along the road?

 3        A.   No.  There were masses of people moving at the same time as I was

 4     trying to move down the street from the Zinc factory to the transport to

 5     Srebrenica on the right-hand side.  There was a lot of crowd, and you

 6     couldn't see anything from the people.  They were all trying at once to

 7     go to the tape and reach the trucks and buses where they were told they

 8     would be transported.  People were in panic and afraid, and they all

 9     wanted to leave at that same moment to go through this -- this so-called

10     barricade as soon as possible.

11        Q.   Given the fact that it was summertime and given the number of

12     people, it was simply impossible for them to remain in the area.  Would

13     that be correct?  There was a threat of epidemic and people going hungry

14     or thirsty.

15        A.   Well, when the temperature rises up to 40 degrees, when you have

16     to spend three days in a row out in the open, because I managed to find a

17     spot on the bus after three days, and I can only discuss my feelings, but

18     never at any point in time did I, my son, or father-in-law think of

19     anything else.  We didn't take any water, food, or medication that the

20     Serb soldiers may have distributed.  We only took sips of water from time

21     to time at a gas station nearby, and that's how we survived.

22        Q.   During your testimony in a previous case, you mentioned two

23     people whom you had known from before, Gavric and a policeman that you

24     referred to regarding 1992.  Do you recall that part of the testimony?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 11236

 1        Q.   Please tell the Court where you saw Gavric, and what was he

 2     doing?

 3        A.   I saw Milisav Gavric at the gate of the 11th of March factory and

 4     the Zinc factory.  So there was a single fence and a single gate through

 5     which one could go to both factories.  He was there in the afternoon of

 6     the 12th of July.  He was standing with a group of people, including my

 7     husband's uncle.  There were also three brothers from Potocari whom I

 8     knew and a man from Tegari who drove a taxi in Bratunac in peacetime.

 9     There was a conversation of theirs, although I didn't stay since I was on

10     my way to get water.  I saw them, but I couldn't hear what they were

11     discussing.

12        Q.   In the process of population evacuation, as people were getting

13     aboard buses and men were being separated, were there any military or

14     policemen there?  Did you ever find anything of the sort?

15        A.   No.  I don't think there were any police, in my view.  The person

16     I mentioned a moment ago, Jokic, I saw him on the 13th of July en route

17     to the buses.  He wasn't there, and he wasn't along the road before the

18     barricade in Srebrenica.  He was just standing by the road, kept to

19     himself.  He didn't talk to anyone.  He wore a light blue shirt and grey

20     pants.  I think it was a police uniform.

21             As for the other people who were there as we were getting onto

22     the buses and trucks, when the men were being separated at the barricade,

23     they were all in combat fatigues, in military uniform.  Now, who those

24     people were, who they belonged to, whether they were the Serb army from

25     Republika Srpska or something else is something we couldn't tell.  In any

Page 11237

 1     case, they were young, and I've already stated that such young people

 2     could have been soldiers.  Judging by their accent and conversations, one

 3     could conclude they were from Serbia, because they only spoke the Ekavian

 4     dialect that no one in Bosnia speaks.  It was easy to notice that.

 5             As I was getting some water, I heard a couple of them even say

 6     that they were from Valjevo.  And they also had camouflage uniforms.  I

 7     don't know whether they said the truth, though, but that's what I could

 8     hear.

 9        Q.   But they, too, spoke to the Ekavian dialect?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Tell me this, please:  During the two days in Potocari, did you

12     at any point in time receive information that there was a delegation of

13     the refugee population which participated in discussions with the

14     political, military, and police leadership concerning the evacuation of

15     those people?  Did you ever obtain such information?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Please tell us whether the following names mean anything to you:

18     Camila Purkovic, Nesib Mandzic, and Ibro Nuhanovic.  And did you know

19     those people from earlier, from before?

20        A.   Yes, I knew the first person.  She worked in Srebrenica when I

21     worked there, in peacetime.  I knew Nesib Mandzic from the war.  I think

22     he was the principal of the school during the truce period.  As for

23     Nuhanovic, he was an UNPROFOR interpreter, as far as I knew.

24        Q.   Were you told that an agreement was reached with the Serb

25     authorities and UNPROFOR to have the people evacuated from Potocari?

Page 11238

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Were you told at any point in time that during that evacuation

 3     UNPROFOR members were to take place as well?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   I would kindly ask you to look at some footage taken on the

 6     13th of July.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

 8     look at P1147.  It is V000-9267.  I would kindly ask Janet to show us the

 9     other clip beginning at 5:46 to 6:305:46, and then 6:30.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, and thank you, Janet.

12        Q.   As you could observe, madam, it was on the 13th of July, slightly

13     after the time you provided as the moment of your departure from

14     Potocari, the Serb policeman or soldier, which happens to be irrelevant

15     for this case, is addressing an UNPROFOR soldier and tells the

16     interpreter the following:

17             "Miki, tell them to go and collect them from up there.  Miki,

18     they should tour the area to see if anyone else wants to go.  That's

19     their job."

20             Having heard this and seen the footage, let me ask you this:  Did

21     you at any point in time have information that UNPROFOR members were

22     supposed to take part in organising the evacuation of the people from

23     Potocari?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Let's look at another footage from the

Page 11239

 1     same recording.  It is P1147, video V000-9267, starting with 3 minutes

 2     and ending at 4 minutes, 26 seconds.

 3             Let's have a look at it, madam, and then I'll have a few

 4     questions for you.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   I suppose you were able to see this footage on several occasions;

 8     is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   According to what we have received from the Prosecution, it is

11     supposed to be the 13th of July, early in the afternoon.

12             Given the place of your birth, do you recognise the part of

13     Potocari where this was shot?

14        A.   Sir, I know Potocari as the back of my hand.  As for all this

15     footage, they cover the distance between the 11th of March and the

16     UNPROFOR base and the Zinc and battery factory.  We were all put on the

17     vehicles with which we were evacuated.

18        Q.   I wanted to ask you to clarify the following:  In this -- on this

19     footage, in this column, you could see men, women, the elderly, and

20     younger men and women as well with their personal possessions, packages.

21     Where was this part recorded?

22        A.   I know that beyond the UNPROFOR barricade -- that's what I can

23     say.  Well, when we reach the barricade, when we were seated, that group

24     of people, that crowd that accompanied us was seated across the road.  On

25     the left-hand side there was the so-called white house, and before that

Page 11240

 1     house was the barricade.  On the right-hand side was the Feros factory

 2     and the old slaughterhouse.  When we went beyond the barricade we turned

 3     right to get on the buses, and all of the men, all of the men, every

 4     single one, my brother-in-law, my father-in-law, et cetera, were told to

 5     go to the left and told that they would be put on some other buses.  They

 6     were escorted across the canal to the house.  They threw their back-packs

 7     next to the road.  I don't know what they were told, but I could see

 8     that.  And the people were then taken to the house.  Where they were

 9     taken later is something I don't know.  By that time we had already got

10     on the buses, and the people stayed in the yard of the house and behind

11     it.

12        Q.   Did you at any point in time observe whether the same kind of

13     procedure was followed on your first day in Potocari, that is to say, the

14     12th of July?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   If you saw it, tell us whether these people, as you could see on

17     the footage, could bring along their possessions on the trucks and into

18     the buses.

19        A.   I don't know.  According to what others told me, because I didn't

20     see it, but according to the stories of others later on, those who were

21     there on the 13th in the morning, and this may well be the time of the

22     footage, although I'm not sure, we were told that there were some older

23     men who managed to get through.  That is to say, they were not separated,

24     and that they could bring along their possessions.  When my group came

25     along, we were told literally to throw it away, that we wouldn't need it,

Page 11241

 1     that beds awaited us, and that we were to go to our Alija and so on.

 2        Q.   Did you ever see any of the men who managed to pass the

 3     barricade, as you said, discard their passport or any other

 4     identification document?

 5        A.   No.  All I saw that they were throwing away their rucksacks or

 6     bags or whatever they had but nothing else.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You already spoke about the next thing that I'm going

 8     to ask you about and testified more extensively in the previous cases.

 9     Do you remember when the convoy of vehicles with the refugees was passing

10     through Bratunac that the local population was hurling threats at them,

11     swearing at them, that one could feel hatred among the people in the

12     street aimed at you?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did the same situation repeat itself while you were passing

15     through Milici?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Can you remember if that happened while you were passing through

18     Vlasenica?

19        A.   When I was passing through Vlasenica, the bus stopped at one

20     point.  We didn't know what was going on.  The bus had a flat tire, and

21     while we were parked there nobody approached us except for three men.  I

22     don't know who and what they were.  One of them entered through the door

23     and gave three apples which were not ripe yet to a child sitting next by,

24     but they did nothing else.  Once the tire was repaired, we continued our

25     journey.

Page 11242

 1        Q.   Were there any soldiers in the vehicles or outside the vehicles?

 2     And I'm referring to members of the UNPROFOR escorting the convoy.

 3        A.   Well, that was a long convoy, and there was no one in front of

 4     our bus, but I don't know whether there were soldiers anywhere else,

 5     because as I said, that was a long column.  There was no escort in front

 6     or behind our bus.  I told you that in three places we had to stop.  The

 7     buses were boarded by Serb soldiers who were asking us to give them

 8     foreign exchange currency, otherwise they would kill us.  Some of the

 9     women did give their money, and they stopped us again at Kravica and then

10     again.  And when the third time they tried to stop us, the driver said,

11     "People, we are being stopped for a third time.  The people have nothing

12     more to give you."

13        Q.   At what time were you stopped at Kravica, to the best of your

14     recollection?

15        A.   Well, I don't know.  Kravica is not far away.  I don't know how

16     long it took when we started from Potocari and reached Kravica.

17        Q.   But you would agree that it was on the afternoon of the

18     13th of July?

19        A.   Yes, I would.

20        Q.   Can you tell me, having in mind everything that you experienced

21     during your journey, were you able to conclude that the people in

22     Bratunac were extremely vengeful?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us if you remember when you arrived

25     beyond Tisca and when you got off the vehicles and started walking

Page 11243

 1     towards Kladanj that you saw an UNPROFOR vehicle there?

 2        A.   I didn't see any vehicle there.  When we got off, I saw soldiers

 3     on both sides of the road who were directing us and telling us not to

 4     deviate from the road.  Those people who were exhausted and old and frail

 5     had to be carried, but we were all exhausted for that matter.

 6        Q.   We are nearing the end, but before that, I'd like to call up 1D84

 7     in e-court.  It's an excerpt from the book entitled "Chaos by Design,"

 8     written by Ibran Mustafic.  We're going to look at one passage from the

 9     book.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And we need the next page in the

11     document, the last paragraph in both languages.

12        Q.   And while we are waiting let me ask you this:  Do you know who

13     Ibran Mustafic is?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, we have a good habit in this court

16     that we first explore whether the witness has any knowledge of something

17     the party would then like to show to that witness.  So I don't know what

18     is in the book, or whatever, but first ask the witness about what you

19     want to show her later and to ask her whether she's familiar with any of

20     it, because there's no need to show it if she don't know anything about

21     it.  So would you please proceed in accordance with this guidance.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will comply, Your Honours, and

23     I think I started with asking the witness who Ibran Mustafic is.

24        Q.   But let me ask you this:  Is it true that he was a delegate in

25     the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war and that he

Page 11244

 1     represented the Party of Democratic Action?  Are you familiar with that

 2     information?

 3        A.   I heard that he had been a deputy in the Assembly, but I don't

 4     know.  I didn't know anything about the authorities, but I heard that he

 5     was the deputy.

 6        Q.   Are you aware that in those days he himself was in Potocari too?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to see him in Potocari?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10        Q.   Now, I'm going to read this very characteristic passage, and I'm

11     going to ask you --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you first should inquire with the

13     witness whether the witness has any knowledge on the subject you want to

14     deal with, and only if she says she knows something about it, then it's

15     worthwhile to put a text to the witness.  Perhaps it might not even be

16     needed if the witness knows a lot and can tell you a lot about it.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you for this

18     guideline, and I'm going to abide by it.

19        Q.   Madam, let me ask you this:  Do you know that in the course of

20     the separation of able-bodied men in Potocari, at any location or at any

21     check-point or in the course of any segment of the process Camila,

22     Nesib Mandzic, and Nuhanovic were present?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Did you ever see any of these three individuals on the

25     13th of July in the vicinity of the place where the able-bodied men were

Page 11245

 1     separated?

 2        A.   No, I didn't.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, in

 4     light of this, I don't think it is necessary to put this document to the

 5     witness.  It is still in e-court as 1D.

 6        Q.   And I'm going to conclude my cross-examination by asking you

 7     this, madam:  After all these tragic events, did you go back to live in

 8     the place where you lived before the war?

 9        A.   No, I didn't.

10        Q.   Pursuant to a decision issued by the Department for Refugees and

11     Displaced Persons, was your property restituted in your former place of

12     residence?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you manage to repair your property, at least in part?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   We have to slow down.  Did you receive any subsidies in that

17     respect that helped you to repair your property?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   You and your family are now living outside Srebrenica; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you have a registered residence in Bratunac, and in the last

23     elections, did you have an opportunity to be on the electoral roll for

24     Bratunac?

25        A.   No.

Page 11246

 1        Q.   Where did you exercise your voting rights?

 2        A.   In Sarajevo -- or, rather, Vogosca.

 3        Q.   Did the population of your village return to their properties

 4     where they used to live before the war?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.  I have no

 7     further questions for you.  Once again, I'm very sorry if I put any

 8     question to you that would invoke the memories that you have of these

 9     events.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Harbour, do you have any -- is there any need to

11     re-examine the witness?

12             MS. HARBOUR:  No, Your Honour.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Bench also has no questions for you,

15     Madam Malagic, I would like to thank you very much for coming the long

16     way to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put

17     to you by the parties.  The Chamber is aware that it is not easy to be

18     taken back to the events which happened in July 1995.  The Chamber is

19     fully aware of that.  Therefore, thanks again, and we wish you a safe

20     return home.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would take this opportunity to

22     thank you, this Trial Chamber, and the Hague Tribunal in general, and

23     this country that made it possible for us to give at least a partial

24     account of what really happened to us, in order to describe a situation

25     that my family and thousands of other people found themselves, people who

Page 11247

 1     lost their property, their families, their children, people who were left

 2     alone, deprived of any will to continue with their lives.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You were called in order to assist the Chamber

 4     in finding the truth.  Thank you again very much.  You may follow the

 5     usher.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no need to take a break because there are

 8     no -- any further witnesses, so therefore before we adjourn, I'd like to

 9     briefly put two matters on the record.

10             First, the Defence requested, on the 13th of May, 18 days to

11     respond to the Prosecution's 26th 92 bis motion which would extend the

12     deadline for a response to tomorrow, the 17th of May.  The request is

13     hereby granted.

14             Second, I'd like to put on the record -- rather, the Chamber

15     notes that as of the 1st of June, 2013, the Chamber will be sitting five

16     days per week pending a decision, the decision on the Defence motion for

17     an adjustment of the trial sitting schedule.

18             These were the two matters I wanted to put on the record.

19             Mr. Groome.

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, with respect to the Chamber's last

21     comment about the sitting five days, given the scheduling implications,

22     the Prosecution certainly would appreciate any notice as soon as possible

23     if that is going to change.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber is at this moment considering the

25     Defence motion for adjustment of the trial sitting schedule and as soon

Page 11248

 1     as we have decided or whether that will be a final decision or any

 2     interlocutory decision, of course you'll know it immediately.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             Your Honour, during the testimony of Witness Zlatan Celanovic at

 5     transcript page 11109, the Chamber inquired about what appeared to be a

 6     transcription error in the witness's testimony in the Popovic case, which

 7     was tendered in this case as P1451.  The Chamber pointed out a sentence

 8     which occurs in the original text at transcript page 6635, and at e-court

 9     page 11, line 23, in the transcript which reads:

10             "I did thought mention the 28th Division, and I didn't know where

11     there was a 28th Division."

12             The Prosecution has checked the corresponding B/C/S audiotape of

13     the transcript, and informs the Chamber that the English translation in

14     our view would correctly read:

15             "I did not mention the 28th Division, and I didn't know there was

16     a 28th Division."  I don't know whether the Chamber and the Defence are

17     willing to rely on the representation of the Prosecution and we leave the

18     matter there, or whether the Chamber wants to direct that the matter be

19     checked by somebody else.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If the Defence would agree that this is how we

21     should understand the transcript of the testimony and that there's an

22     error and that the parties agree on what the error is and how it should

23     correctly be read, then the Chamber would like to hear from the parties

24     and may finally not ask for any further steps as long as the parties

25     agree on the matter.  At least the logic is back in this sentence.

Page 11249

 1     Whether it's accurate or not, that's a second matter, but it's, again,

 2     logical.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that that

 4     is the case, but since my colleague Lukic led this witness, and I

 5     wouldn't like to become involved in this issue, I'd prefer to have an

 6     agreement with the Prosecution that we verify this, and we shall inform

 7     you shortly.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the Chamber hear from the parties within

 9     seven days from now.

10             Then we adjourn for the day.  We will not sit tomorrow, and

11     therefore we will resume on Tuesday, the 21st of May, at 9.30 in the

12     morning, and to be quite honest, I do not know whether it will be in

13     Courtroom I or Courtroom III.  It will still be in Courtroom III.  We

14     stand adjourned.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day

17                           of May, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.