1 Friday, 24 May 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Camera-wise, we are in open session, although the blinds are
11 down, but that's in order to avoid that we spend half of the day looking
12 blinds going up and blinds going down.
13 The matter you would like to raise, we can do that once the
14 witness is in, I take it, Ms. Lee. Yes.
15 Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
16 MR. IVETIC: Do we need to go into closed session for that,
17 Your Honour?
18 JUDGE ORIE: We need to go into closed session. Yes, you're
19 right. I'm confused by thinking that the blinds down means closed
21 [Closed session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 Good morning, Witness RM306. I would like to remind you that you
6 are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning
7 of your testimony; that is, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,
8 and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: RM306 [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, once the noise is over and if you're
12 ready, you may continue.
13 MR. IVETIC: There is a preliminary matter.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, yes. The preliminary matter.
15 Ms. Lee.
16 MS. LEE: Good morning, Your Honours. It's in relation to the
17 Chamber's request yesterday to review the audio of the interview of the
18 witness with the OTP. I am not sure if the request was made during open
19 or closed session, but I could make the correction without revealing any
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MS. LEE: Or the identity of the witness.
23 The Prosecution has listened to the interview that the witness
24 had with Mr. Ruez, and the B/C/S transcript is correct. The word
25 "Muslims and killed Serb soldiers" were mentioned, and so the English
1 version is incorrect.
2 JUDGE ORIE: English version is incorrect, B/C/S is correct.
3 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record. Then I don't think it
5 was in evidence. It was just put to the witness, I think, but we'll have
6 to check that.
7 MR. IVETIC: It's not in evidence, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's not in evidence.
9 So therefore, for your own records it might be good to have a
10 corrected version, but for our record it's hereby -- it's hereby
12 MS. LEE: Yes. And also we will replace the English version in
14 JUDGE ORIE: In e-court. That's fine.
15 Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 To begin, I think I would need to go into private session to
18 discuss that one matter that I was starting yesterday.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll move into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Page 11507 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
19 Q. Sir, I'd now like to focus a little bit on the interview that you
20 gave to Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez of the Office of the Prosecutor. Now, I
21 believe in several trials, and it's indicated in the Rule 92 ter
22 transcript that has been admitted in this case, MFI'd, that you had
23 complaints about the interview as being faulty and that the dates and
24 chronology of events described therein was all wrong. Is that accurate?
25 A. Yes. But I did not say that it was not correctly recorded. I
1 said Mr. Ruez asked me about dates. He asked me, "Is it that date?" And
2 I said, "Yes." But then I'm not very good at dates to this day. I don't
3 think about dates. I don't think about the order of events. I didn't
4 even try to remember the actual dates.
5 Q. Am I correct then, and would you agree, that Mr. Ruez insisted on
6 providing you with dates and knowledge that he insisted was correct and
7 asking you to adopt the same for purposes of that interview?
8 A. Well, you can cannot say in the classical sense that he insisted
9 on dates. He asked me was it then, and I say "Yes," and then he repeats
10 another date and says, "Did it happen then?" And I say, "Yes." So you
11 could not really say that he insisted.
12 Q. That's fair enough. I thank you for that clarification. And now
13 I would like to ask you just a few questions in relation directly to
14 General Ratko Mladic. First of all, is it correct that you have never
15 personally met General Mladic before seeing him in this same courtroom
17 A. General Mladic? I saw him in Bratunac two or three times. I did
18 not have an opportunity of meeting him personally at any meeting or
19 anything. I did not meet General Ratko Mladic.
20 Q. And you identify that you saw him in Bratunac two or three times.
21 Am I correct that the time-periods when you may have seen him in Bratunac
22 would have been in 1992 or 1993?
23 A. I think that the first time was -- I'm not sure. But I think
24 that the first time I saw General Mladic was at the Fontana Hotel in
25 passing, at that, when he had a meeting with a delegation from
1 Srebrenica. Now what the date was, I mean, really, I wouldn't want to
2 guess, but I think that's the first time that we saw each other. I'm not
3 even sure that it's the first time, but I think it is.
4 Q. And in relation to the activities that you testified about
5 pertaining to the collection and the burial of -- of corpses, you did not
6 see General Mladic in any occasion at either Glogova or any of the other
7 locations where you saw corpses; is that correct?
8 A. No. During those days, I did not see Mr. Mladic, General Mladic,
9 at all.
10 Q. And is it also correct that you never received any orders from
11 General Mladic or purporting to be from General Mladic in relation to
12 either the collection of bodies or the burial of the same during that
14 A. I said a moment ago that I did not have an opportunity ever of
15 meeting General Mladic personally, and thereby I could not have received
16 any orders from him.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. I thank you for your time.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions for the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
21 Before I give an opportunity to Ms. Lee, Judge Fluegge would like
22 to put a question to the witness.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, a moment ago Mr. Ivetic asked you about
24 the first occasion or one of the occasions when you saw Mr. Mladic and
25 you said you saw him "at the Fontana Hotel in passing, at that, when he
1 had a meeting with a delegation from Srebrenica." You said you have no
2 recollection about the concrete day when this happened. In which year
3 did that happen?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you that either.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I ask more or less the same question in a
7 different way. Did you see him there during those when Srebrenica was
8 taken over by the Serb forces or was it totally distant in time from
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Totally distant in time. Not
11 during those days when the fighting was taking place around Srebrenica
12 and when Srebrenica was taken.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Ms. Lee.
15 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 11513-11518 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 Witness, this concludes your evidence in this Court. I would
24 invite you not to speak because the voice distortion seems to be not
25 fully functional at this moment, but I would like to thank you very much
1 for coming to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that
2 were put to you by the parties and by this Bench, and I wish you a safe
3 return home again.
4 Now in order to allow you to leave the courtroom, we'll briefly
5 turn into closed session.
6 [Closed session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Could we have the non-professional assistance in having the
20 curtains up. Co-operation by the parties is appreciated.
21 Ms. Lee, you wanted to raise a procedural issue.
22 MS. LEE: Yes, P1474 is marked for identification at this point,
23 and Mr. Ivetic has not identified any portions that were not included in
24 the proffered statement during his cross, to my knowledge.
25 MR. IVETIC: About two-thirds of my examination was material that
1 was excluded from the selection of the -- that transcript.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now Mr. Ivetic, did he contradict there what
3 was selected by the Prosecution?
4 MR. IVETIC: He clarified and added to, yes, but not contradict.
5 But not contradict.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that was the reason why it should be
7 MFI'd. But let's for future occasions, if you think that other portions
8 of the evidence would better clarify what is selected by the Prosecution,
9 you just ask for that to be added to the portions selected by the
10 Prosecution and then we have a -- do you intend at this moment to -- do
11 you think that the oral examination would serve that purpose
12 sufficiently, or would you like to add pages to the selection made by the
14 MR. IVETIC: I am satisfied that the oral examination suffices
15 and therefore withdraw my objection based upon that ground for the --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore P1474 which was marked for
17 identification is now admitted into evidence under seal.
18 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours. And may I please be excused.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You are excused, Ms. Lee.
20 MS. LEE: Mr. McCloskey as well.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey as well.
22 MS. LEE: Yes. As well as my colleague there.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Don't leave us with an empty courtroom at the end.
24 Who will examine the next witness?
25 MR. GROOME: Ms. Hasan will deal with the next witness,
1 Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Ms. Hasan, the witness will testify viva voce?
4 MS. HASAN: That's correct, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures?
6 MS. HASAN: No protective measures.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
8 And there is some sound maybe coming from your microphone, Ms. Hasan.
9 That's -- if you use the other one, perhaps that --
10 MS. HASAN: Is this a little better?
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's far better.
12 MS. HASAN: Thank you.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness. Before you give evidence,
15 you are required to make the solemn declaration. I see that you have the
16 text already in your hands. Could I invite you already to make that
17 solemn declaration.
18 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours. I solemnly declare
19 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
22 Mr. Blaszczyk, you'll first be examined by Ms. Hasan. Ms. Hasan
23 is counsel for the Prosecution and you'll find her to your right.
24 MS. HASAN: Good morning everyone.
25 Examination by Ms. Hasan:
1 Q. Good morning, Witness.
2 A. Good morning.
3 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, Your Honours, just so you know, there
4 is a laptop in front of Mr. Blaszczyk which will be used later on during
5 his examination, but it's just there so that it's set up and ready to go.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please announce when it's supposed to be used.
7 MS. HASAN:
8 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, could you very briefly tell us a little bit about
9 your law enforcement background up to and including your work here at the
11 A. Since 1980 I was a police officer in police -- police forces in
12 Poland. I worked for criminal division in -- in Poland, in my city,
13 Gdansk, and a few times I was deployed also to Bosnia-Herzegovina and
14 Croatia as police officer as part of the police contingent in
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina and in Croatia. And I joined Tribunal, it was 2003,
17 Q. And so did your work as a police officer in Poland continue up
18 until your work here at the ICTY?
19 A. Yes, correct. I was working as the police officer but in Poland
20 since 1980 up to 2003.
21 Q. Your work --
22 A. 1981, in fact.
23 Q. Your work here at the Tribunal, can you tell us what
24 investigate --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry. Can you please repeat the time again? It
1 is confusing, and perhaps the transcript is not correct.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I was with the police since 1981. This is
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: 2003.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
7 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Q. Now, your work here at the Tribunal, since you began can you tell
9 us what investigations you've been involved in?
10 A. Since I joined the Tribunal, I -- mostly I was attached to the
11 investigation related to the fall of Srebrenica in July 1995 but also I
12 used to work for so-called Kosovo cases.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, while I welcome Mr. Blaszczyk by that
14 name, it doesn't mean that the Chamber had established it was him. And
15 you apparently have not -- it's usual the first question, if you make it
16 the tenth question, no problem, but just to remind you.
17 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Mr. Witness, could you please, for the record, state your name
19 and spell your last name.
20 A. My name is Tomasz Blaszczyk, spelling B-l-a-s-z-c-z-y-k.
21 Q. Thank you. Now during the course of your investigation into the
22 crimes comitted in Srebrenica, how many times would you estimate that you
23 travelled to the region, to the areas of Srebrenica, Potocari, Kravica,
24 Zeleni Jadar, et cetera?
25 A. As part of my job I was assigned on a mission in this area,
1 Srebrenica, Potocari, Kravica. I was there 2000. It's very difficult to
2 say how many exactly, but many.
3 Q. Witness, the purpose of your testimony here today is what we call
4 the road book, and this road book bears 65 ter 5759. It might be a good
5 time to hand that to everyone to have a look at.
6 Meanwhile, Mr. Blaszczyk, could you tell us just very briefly
7 before we go into it, what's the purpose of this book? What is it based
9 A. During our investigation we received -- we obtained a copy of --
10 of so-called Petrovic video. It was video recorded by one of the
11 journalist in the area of Srebrenica, Potocari, and on the road from
12 Bratunac -- from Kravica, in fact, to Konjevic Polje. And the video was
13 recorded in two days, on the 13th of July and 14th of July, 1995. And we
14 decided to analyse this video and also authenticate the places or to find
15 the places where the video was recorded, and my job was to go to the area
16 to find the places where the video was recorded and analyse the video
17 itself a little bit.
18 Q. You mention the Petrovic video and you say it was recorded by a
19 journalist. Can you tell us who the journalist is?
20 A. This is Serbian journalist from Belgrade. His name is
21 Zoran Petrovic. He used the nickname also Pirocanac; in fact, he used
22 two names, Petrovic, Pirocanac. He was in the area on the 13th, as I
23 said already on the 13th and 14th January, 1995. He, together with
24 commander of the police forces in this area, Ljubisa Borovcanin, he was
25 travelling in this area.
1 Q. Let's take one day at a time. On the 13th, where did he visit?
2 And I'm referring to 13th of July, what areas did he go to, as far as the
3 video is concerned?
4 A. Yes. According to his statement and we see also on his video
5 that he visited at that time the area of Potocari, he was in Potocari,
6 and on the road it's in Kravica up to almost Konjevic Polje, Pervani,
8 Q. What about on the 14th of July?
9 A. We have footage from his video and, of course, his statement as
10 well that on the 14th of July he was in Srebrenica, passing to Potocari,
11 of course, and then in Zeleni Jadar, and on the way back Srebrenica
12 again. And according to him, he returned the same day to Serbia.
13 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, just for your -- for a reference, a lot
14 of the Petrovic video is incorporated in the OTP's trial video,
15 Srebrenica trial video. For the purpose of Mr. Blaszczyk's examination
16 today, we're going to be looking at the original video, not from the
17 trial video. And, of course, Mr. Petrovic's testimony has also been
18 offered pursuant to Rule 92 bis.
19 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, you mentioned that Mr. Petrovic was on those days
20 together with Borovcanin, and you said Ljubisa Borovcanin. Can you tell
21 us was he with anyone else?
22 A. Yes, he was travelling in this area together with
23 Ljubisa Ljubomir Borovcanin and with his driver. His name is
24 Nedjo Jovicic.
25 Q. Have you ever met Mr. Petrovic?
1 A. Yes, I met him for the first time in 2006, in February, we
2 conducted interview with him. And also at that time we received a copy
3 of his raw material recorded in July 1995 in the area of Srebrenica and
5 Q. When you say you received a raw material from him, did you
6 receive the original from him or what -- what exactly did you take?
7 A. In fact we asked Mr. Petrovic to bring his raw material together
8 with him to the interview. He came to our office in Belgrade. And,
9 anyway, he had his material, his raw material recorded at that time with
10 him. And in his presence, with the help of our video assistant, we
11 copied this material on our device.
12 Q. Can you tell us the format that Mr. Petrovic's video was in and
13 what formats you -- you recorded it in?
14 A. Yes. He recorded the events from July 1995 in -- on the video
15 camera using 8-millimetres tape.
16 Q. And did you retain that format in the copy you took?
17 A. Yes, we did. We copied on the same format and also we copy the
18 video on -- on CD or DVD.
19 Q. In your review of that raw material from Mr. Petrovic, did you --
20 were you able to determine whether or not the footage had been altered in
21 any way?
22 A. Yes. We reviewed the material but also I need to -- to mention
23 that we have in possession of edited material of Mr. Petrovic who was
24 broadcast -- the material was broadcasted in Serbian TV in July 1995
25 after the fall of Srebrenica. And in this material, broadcasted
1 material, edited material, much shorter than the raw material, there is
2 some footage which are not included in the raw material. It means
3 probably erased or overrecorded in raw material.
4 Q. Okay. So just so we have this right, when you mention edited
5 material that was broadcast on Serbian TV, you're talking about portions
6 of Mr. Petrovic's original footage?
7 A. Yes. This edited material broadcasted on Serbian TV, it
8 contained, in fact, entire -- not entire but the only portion of Petrovic
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, could I seek clarification. One issue.
11 You said that the edited material, that it contains some footage
12 which is not included in the raw material. And you say it means,
13 probably, erased or overrecorded in the raw material. A third option, I
14 don't know whether you have considered that, is that it would come from a
15 different source. Have you considered that?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, we did, but -- but watching the broadcasted
17 material and having interview with Mr. Pirocanac, we came to the
18 conclusion that this is the same material recorded by him. He admitted
19 that this material was recorded by him. For some reason it was erased
20 from raw material or overrecorded in raw material.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, it's about time for the break and this
23 would be as good time as any.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then we take the break now.
25 Could the witness first be escorted out of the courtroom.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we resume at 10 minutes to
4 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into courtroom.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, please proceed.
9 MS. HASAN:
10 Q. Just to follow-up on the discussion we were having before the
12 MS. HASAN: If we could play 65 ter 22342, which is a video
13 that [indiscernible] on Sanction.
14 Q. And this video is a split screen video which, Witness, I'll ask
15 you to explain a little bit about as soon as we just watch a few -- a
16 couple of minutes of it.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MS. HASAN: If we could just pause it here very briefly. And
19 that's at 00:19.19.
20 Q. Witness, could you tell us what we see on the left-hand side of
21 the screen in terms of where that footage comes from and where the
22 footage on the right-hand side of the screen comes from?
23 A. The footage of the left-hand side, this is the footage
24 broadcasted in Studio B in July 1995 - this is edited material of
25 Petrovic video - on the right-hand side we have the footage of the raw
1 material of Mr. Petrovic. Right now we see the shell. I personally seen
2 this shell. This is the shell which is standing on Mr. Petrovic balcony
3 of his house near Belgrade. It visible here that this part -- and we
4 just compare -- in fact, we made some kind of exercise. We just played,
5 on the right-hand side, we played the video, the raw material of
6 Mr. Petrovic, and we compare it with edited material broadcasted in
7 Studio B. We see that this is the same material except footage depicting
8 the man on the balcony on the white house in Potocari, this material was
9 erased or overrecorded by another footage. In this case we see the
10 footage of the shell from the balcony of Mr. Petrovic.
11 Q. Can you tell us, there is an icon on the top right-hand corner of
12 the left screen, what does that icon represent?
13 A. Yeah. This icon represents the TV station, the Studio B station
14 in Belgrade.
15 Q. There also appears to be what we saw as a running text on the
16 bottom of that side of the screen. Is that related to the substance of
17 the video footage?
18 A. No, this text is not related in any way to the substance of -- of
19 the footage. It is rather kind of advert broadcasted by a TV station as
21 Q. And before we continue running this presentation, can you tell us
22 when as far as you know from your investigation the Studio B footage was
23 broadcast on television?
24 A. I believe it was broadcast on the 17 July 1995, immediately after
25 Mr. Petrovic returned to Belgrade. He returned to Belgrade, according to
1 him, on the 14th of July, 1995. He broadcasted -- he edited this
2 material together with editors from Studio B and the material was
3 broadcasted on 17 July 1995.
4 MS. HASAN: Okay. And, Ms. Stewart, if you would continue
5 playing the video.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MS. HASAN:
8 Q. So just in watching the rest of that clip, can you tell us what
9 we were seeing happening there?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, may I take it that you do not rely on
11 text spoken because I heard text spoken?
12 MS. HASAN: No, Mr. President, not for this purpose. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Please proceed.
15 THE WITNESS: This is a recording of the base, UNPROFOR base in
16 Potocari, Dutch UNPROFOR base in Potocari, part of the Dutch UNPROFOR
17 base in Potocari. But before we seen also part of the white house. We
18 call it white house. The white house is located across the road from
19 DutchBat. And on the Studio B broadcast we see the prisoners or the
20 people being kept on the balcony of this white house.
21 MS. HASAN:
22 Q. Okay. If we go back to the raw material Mr. Petrovic gave you,
23 have you obtained any other versions of that during the course of your
24 investigation from other sources?
25 A. Yes. We obtained other version of the same material. First, I
1 believe we received this material from BBC. The raw material -- a copy
2 of the -- let's say in this way, a copy of the raw material except the
3 erased or overrecorded part in. And I also remember receiving a copy
4 of -- of the raw material also from -- from Ministry of Defence of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina on our request.
6 Q. And did you have the opportunity to compare those videos to the
7 material you received from Mr. Petrovic himself? And if so, how do they
9 A. Yes. I -- of course I compare all this material we receive
10 from -- first from BBC and then from Mr. Petrovic and MOD, and this is
11 the footages of these three sources containing the same material.
12 Q. Now you just mentioned that you had requested the video from the
13 Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. What was it that prompted you
14 to do so?
15 A. If I could remember, in 2006 our team, OTP team, went to the
16 archive of MOD to Banja Luka to search the archive of Ministry of Defence
17 of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Banja Luka, and during the search or the review
18 of the documents in Banja Luka, they obtained also -- in fact, they scan
19 a few -- lot of documents. After reviewing these documents here in
20 house, I mean here in ICTY, I discovered that one of the document this is
21 receipt for the tape of -- containing the material of Mr. Petrovic. This
22 was receipt and information, first information and then receipt.
23 Information from, as good as I remember, it was from the head of VRS
24 information centre, a Colonel Milutinovic, informing security branch of
25 Main Staff of Republika Srpska, of Army of Republika Srpska, that in
1 Belgrade there is one tape recorded by Mr. Petrovic, Pirocanac, and the
2 tape is accessible by -- by the VRS.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaszczyk, you said you went to Banja Luka and
4 you said to see the archives of the Ministry of Defence of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is the Bosnia-Herzegovina Ministry of Defence in
6 Banja Luka not in Sarajevo? I'm just wondering, because the
7 administrative seed, I think, of the government of the Bosnia-Herzegovina
8 is in its entirety is perhaps not in Banja Luka?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, but -- you're right, Your Honour. The
10 Ministry of Defence is Sarajevo, in fact. But because nowadays only one
11 Ministry of Defence for Republika Srpska and for -- for -- for
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, for the Federation, they consider this archive in
13 Banja Luka. It was first archive of Republika Srpska Army and now this
14 is, in fact, in archive of Ministry of Defence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: But just to be correct, I didn't go to Banja Luka
17 to review this archive. They were my colleagues. Later on I reviewed
18 only this conversion of the documents obtained by them.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. But may I then take it that what is
20 archived there is from Republika Srpska origin or VRS origin? Is it the
21 complete archive for the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
22 THE WITNESS: I am afraid that this is not complete archive
23 because they are still missing a lot of document from -- from the archive
24 of VRS or Republika Srpska. But definitely this archive in Banja Luka
25 containing documents of VRS.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MS. HASAN: If we could take a look at 65 ter 5761.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: While this is coming up, may I put another
4 question to the witness.
5 Just briefly, you told us that first you received raw material
6 from BBC. Do you have any information how they obtained the raw material
7 from Mr. Petrovic?
8 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, in fact, I couldn't find an
9 information how they received this material from Mr. Petrovic, but what I
10 heard from Mr. Petrovic, it was sold out by Mr. Petrovic also to a lot of
11 station also to BBC.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 MS. HASAN:
14 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, if you could take a look at this document, and
15 it's dated here the 22nd of June, 1996. It's headed: "Centre for
16 Information and Propaganda Activities of the VRS Main Staff." The
17 subject matter is the report on television footage from Srebrenica. And
18 it looks like it's addressed here to the VRS Main Staff security body.
19 Is this the information report that you have just been referring to that
20 talks of the Zoran Petrovic's footage being available?
21 A. Yes, this is exactly the information I referred just few minutes
22 ago. This is document signed and prepared by
23 Colonel Milovan Milutinovic.
24 Q. Can you tell us who Milutinovic is?
25 A. Colonel Milovan Milutinovic was the head of the press centre of
1 the Main Staff of the VRS.
2 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I'd offer 65 ter 5761 into evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1482, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. I don't know to whom
6 I have to look for this witness but -- Mr. Ivetic, no objections,
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. HASAN: And, Mr. President, if we could just at this stage,
10 before I forget, also offer into evidence 65 ter 22342 which was the
11 split screen video we just watched a few minutes ago.
12 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, with that video, that
13 unfortunately is one of the ones that was given to us this morning, so we
14 don't have an ability to respond to it. We might have received
15 [Overlapping speakers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: It will be therefore MFI'd.
17 MR. IVETIC: We might have received it earlier, but it was not
18 one that I was able to locate for the purposes of preparing for the
19 witness. I don't see that the description in e-court list the sources
20 for that video which is the normal procedure when a compilation is made
21 to list the sources, so I don't know if that is identified. And if that
22 is provided then perhaps that takes care of my objection. But as it
23 stands right now, I don't see that I have that information.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It will be MFI'd.
25 Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1483, marked for identification,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 And Ms. Hasan, you have noticed the concerns expressed by
5 Mr. Ivetic. If you can resolve the matter, that would be appreciated.
6 MS. HASAN: Yes, we will do so. Thank you.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you're on exhibits, Madam Hasan, what about
8 5759? You don't have any intentions of tendering that one? I'm asking
9 here about -59.
10 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honour. I do intend to do so. I was going
11 to do so at the end when we work through on the book but --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
13 MS. HASAN: -- either way works. Thank you.
14 Okay. And if we could now call up 65 ter 5762.
15 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, this document is just dated two days later, so the
16 24th of June, 1996. Can you tell us what we're looking at here?
17 A. Yeah. This is receipt issued by Colonel Ljubisa Beara for -- for
18 the tape seized from Vesna Hadzivukovic from Belgrade. This is a receipt
19 for copy of the Petrovic video, raw material.
20 Q. And if we just briefly go back to the exhibit that was just
21 admitted, 65 ter 5761, which is P1482, does this receipt, as you say,
22 mentions Vesna Hadzivukovic, I just want to be clear that whether or not
23 we are talking about the same footage here.
24 And, Witness, if we just go take a look at halfway down that page
25 we see that same name. Do you have any idea who that is who had in their
1 possession Mr. Petrovic's video?
2 A. If we look at this documents, we see that
3 Colonel Milovan Milutinovic is referring to journalist Vesna Hadzivukovic
4 from Belgrade who is in possession of the tape of -- Pirocanac tape.
5 MS. HASAN: So at this stage, Your Honours, I'd offer the receipt
6 which is 65 ter 5762 into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar --
8 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak loud.
10 The number would be, Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1484 [Realtime transcript read in error
12 "P1481"], Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
14 MS. HASAN: We will now turn to the road book yourself, and,
15 Your Honours, I believe you have a hard copy of that before you. That's
16 65 ter 5759. We can pull it up on our screens for the time being.
17 Mr. President, just to clarify the record. If we could just get
18 confirmation that 65 ter 5762 is "Exhibit P1481" as recorded on the
20 THE REGISTRAR: It should be "P1484."
21 MS. HASAN: Thank you.
22 So as we get 65 ter 5759 on our screens.
23 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, could you tell us when your work on this road book
25 A. We started to work with this road book sometime in spring 2006, I
1 believe in May 2006.
2 Q. And can you explain your basic approach to this -- this book?
3 How did you accomplish creating it?
4 A. Your Honour, it was quite simple way. You know, just, we played
5 the video, the raw footage of Petrovic video. We -- we got the stills
6 from this footage. We printed out the hard copies of -- particular of
7 images from this video, and later on taking with us video itself, video
8 player, and the hard copies of the -- of some -- some stills from this
9 video, we went to the field to where the video was recorded. It means to
10 Bratunac, to Srebrenica, Potocari, Sandici, Pervani, Kravica, and on the
11 field being there, you know, we compared the stills from raw material and
12 we formed the location when material was recorded. And we took the
13 pictures from the same places but of course few years later. It was
14 2006. I believe it was May or June 2006.
15 Q. And how were you -- did -- how were you able to determine the
16 precise location? Did you use any technology for that purpose?
17 A. Yes. Being on the field, we used also GPS. To be sure that GPS
18 device worked properly we used two GPS. And after locating the
19 particular location, we took the GPS readings from this location and
20 later on we plotted this location on the map. When we returned to
21 The Hague, of course, we did it here in The Hague.
22 Q. And you have a few times now said "we," who are you referring to?
23 A. I am referring also to my colleague from visual unit who took the
24 most of the pictures. He's very good photographer and expert on this
1 Q. In terms of the organisation of the book, can you just give us a
2 brief outline of how you've done that?
3 A. Yes. May I ask for the hard copy of this book, please?
4 Q. [Indiscernible]
5 A. Your Honour, as you see, this book has a cover page. And after
6 the cover page we have three pages containing the maps of -- four pages,
7 in fact, containing the maps of Bosnia-Herzegovina and mostly zooming and
8 concentrating on the area of interest for us; it is Srebrenica,
9 Zeleni Jadar, Pervani, Sandici, Kravica, Potocari. And following that, I
10 divided this book for five chapters. At that time when I prepared this
11 book, we were in -- this book was prepared for the purpose of Popovic
12 case. I divided this book for five chapters. It was the first chapter
13 containing the footages of Potocari. The second one containing the
14 footages and stills, my stills, our stills, in -- on the road from in
15 Sandici, Pervani, Kravica. And following chapter, the chapter number 3,
16 this is -- chapter 3, in fact, we are coming to the following day and we
17 are coming to the 14th of July, 1995, when Mr. Petrovic recorded his --
18 his video. It was Srebrenica, Zeleni Jadar. And the fifth chapter this
19 is mass [phoen] as a minute, this is mass located on the page of
20 Srebrenica, when we are leaving Srebrenica towards Bratunac.
21 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, there is a translated version of this
22 book and the way the book is designed is to look at two pages at one
23 time. So what I would propose if everyone agrees to this is to display
24 the B/C/S version on the screen, look at the hard copy in English, unless
25 there is another way to do this where --
1 MR. IVETIC: Could we also then please have a hard copy of the
2 B/C/S version so our client can review it at the UNDU since he cannot
3 have access to e-court in an easy manner.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We are dealing with two matters: The first is how
5 we are dealing in court, the second is how the accused could look at the
7 MR. IVETIC: The suggestion for in court is fine by me.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
9 MR. IVETIC: And I was just adding that if he could also have a
10 hard copy in B/C/S for our client to take back with him.
11 MS. HASAN: We will provide that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's proceed as suggested in court.
13 MS. HASAN: If we could turn to page 4. And the e-court pages in
14 the B/C/S and the English are off by one page, so page 4 in the English
15 is page 3 in the B/C/S.
16 Q. And, Mr. Blaszczyk, could you tell us what those four -- three
17 boxes -- four boxes, actually, on this map depict or what's the purpose
18 of those boxes there?
19 A. On this -- Your Honour, on this map I would like to illustrate to
20 show exactly the area where the recording took place. We see here that
21 the first box on the -- on the top, this is box contained -- containing
22 the area of Kravica, Sandici, Pervani, and below we see Potocari,
23 Srebrenica, and Zeleni Jadar. Exactly this is the places where the video
24 was recorded.
25 Q. If we turn the page to page 5 in the hard copy and page 4 on
1 e-court, this looks to be the same map except we see some topography
2 here; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, correct. We inserted here the map, the same map, in fact
4 the same map, but containing the aerial image or the satellite image.
5 Unfortunately, nothing -- very low resolution image of the same area.
6 Q. Let's move on then to chapter 1.
7 MS. HASAN: And if we could actually skip to page 10 of the book,
8 so pages 10 and 11 and that would be pages 9 and 10 on the B/C/S.
9 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, just generally speaking without going into the
10 contents of the images, where do these images that we see on page 10 on
11 the left-hand side come from?
12 A. The images on the left-hand side page, they come from Petrovic
14 Q. And the images we see on the right-hand side of the page?
15 A. They are images taken by me and my colleague in 2006.
16 Q. And does this pattern of display generally apply throughout your
18 A. Yes, is correct, for better view on the left-hand side we have
19 the images from Petrovic video. On the right-hand side we have images or
20 pictures taken by us in 2006, mostly in 2006. And we -- in this way we
21 can compare, in fact, the footage -- Petrovic footages and our pictures.
22 We can see that the same -- we are referring to the same location.
23 Q. All right. And before we go into --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hasan, there may be some confusion if you say
25 "left-hand side" and "right-hand side." We have one page on the screen.
1 This is page 10 in the -- page 11 in the hard copy.
2 MS. HASAN: You're slightly right. I don't know if it's --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you are now referring to the previous page,
4 which is on the left side of the binder.
5 MS. HASAN: You're absolutely right. What I had intended is to
6 display both page 9 and 10 in the B/C/S on the screen if that's even
7 possible. I thought it was.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we turn the pages, the right-hand side to the
9 left and -- yes.
10 MS. HASAN: So I suppose perhaps that's the -- oh, there we go.
11 That's a bit better. Okay.
12 Thank you, Your Honour.
13 So let's play the footage just to see where these clips come
14 from. And that's 65 ter 22422 that Ms. Stewart will play on Sanction,
15 and if we could start running the footage a 00:50.68. So we'll start
16 running at 00:50 which is 50 seconds. If I could ask the image to be
17 displayed on everyone's screens, please. Thank you. And now we can
18 start playing that.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MS. HASAN: If we can just pause it. I don't hear any sound. I
21 don't know if everyone else has that problem. There is no sound.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You wanted to rely on the sound?
23 MS. HASAN: Well, there is some subtitles on the bottom and I
24 will be referring to them, so it might be helpful to get sound at this
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any B/C/S sound, Ms. Hasan?
2 Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: If I could ask for a clarification as well. It
4 would appear that the time stamps on the road book do not correlate to
5 the time stamps on the screen, so I don't know if we just need to
6 preserve for the record where we are actually viewing. They seem to be
7 off by several seconds or something.
8 MS. HASAN: That's correct. I was going to get into that.
9 That's simply as a result of digitising the video. We have always made
10 the best effort to try and synchronise them so that the timing is exactly
11 right, but just on -- there is nothing further we can do about that. It
12 will always be off by a few seconds.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have to carefully watch what we see in the
14 book and what we see in the screen.
15 THE WITNESS: May I explain something, Your Honour?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so, Mr. Blaszczyk.
17 THE WITNESS: These discrepancies are because, in fact, we used
18 the time code from the device used by us during the copy of the raw
19 material in -- Petrovic raw material. But we see in the screen the time
20 code of the material copied later on from this -- our material to -- by
21 evidence unit and put in the system.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Most important is that we have to be very attentive
23 that where the time references are not fully identical that we should not
24 draw conclusions too easily.
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry. We can try replaying it to see if the
2 sound has been resolved, otherwise I am going to proceed without the
3 sound for the time being.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MS. HASAN: If we could just stop it there. Thank you. And
6 that's at 01:41.2. Let's go then and look at some of the items on
7 page 10 which is page 9 then on the B/C/S version.
8 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, can you tell us -- we see some digits under the
9 images there, and I think, perhaps we've all figured this out, but just
10 so that we are clear, what does that count -- counter there represent?
11 A. The digits below the pictures or picture on the left-hand side,
12 this is the time code of the Petrovic video, but the time code of the
13 machine or device used by us playing this Petrovic video.
14 Q. And we see here on the left corner of that page a yellow circle
15 with a black dot inside reading:
16 "Position on map 1 A."
17 Can you tell us what that refers to?
18 A. Yes, before each chapter I -- in fact, the first page of the
19 chapter I attached the map of this particular area, and the yellow --
20 yellow dot depicting the position of the map, the position of -- of the
21 pictures from this particular -- for example, he positioned the map 1 A,
22 this is the pictures of the -- of the position of the pictures from the
23 page then --
24 Q. So --
25 A. -- in this version.
1 MS. HASAN: So just for the -- at the very beginning so we can
2 all see how this works. If we turn to page 7 in the hard copy, which is
3 page 6 in the B/C/S version --
4 JUDGE ORIE: It's perfectly clear to the Chamber how it works.
5 Yellow dots later refer to in relation to the photographs and they were
6 plotted on the map.
7 MS. HASAN: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Unless there was anything special about it?
9 MS. HASAN: No, Your Honour, I just wanted to make sure that the
10 record is clear that the map is page 7 and that's the link.
11 Q. And in every case when you plotted these locations on the map,
12 did you do so using the GPS devices and readings that you took?
13 A. Yes, correct, we used these GPS readings and also aerial image of
14 this -- of this particular area.
15 Q. Now looking at pages 10 and 11 again, this is 9 and 10 in the
16 B/C/S, next to the images we see letters in red A, B, C, D, what's the
17 purpose of those letters? Can you explain those to us?
18 A. Yes, I plotted this letter on my pictures and showings reflecting
19 the positions of the place where the images were recorded Mr. Petrovic
20 from my photos.
21 Q. So, for example, is that what we see in photograph 3 on page 11?
22 A. Yes. We see here that I mark here B, C, D, for example. This is
23 the position where the -- Mr. Petrovic recorded -- we have the stills of
24 Mr. Petrovic from the page 10. I referring to the images B, C, and D.
25 This is exactly where -- where it was recorded on my picture.
1 Q. And can you tell us -- we see in image A the men walking towards
2 what you seem to have indicated is Bratunac and we see trucks facing that
3 same direction. Can you just explain -- orient us in these photographs?
4 A. Yes. In this picture, this footage we see -- we see men walking
5 from -- from the left-hand side of the road towards Bratunac. And also,
6 as you said already, the trucks are facing towards Bratunac. If we play
7 the video, we see that the men were directed to -- to the left-hand side
8 of the road, and women and old men on the right-hand side.
9 Q. And --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Just to ask, for A you say you see men on the
11 left-hand side of the road.
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Sorry, Your Honour. Yes, if we -- if I
13 referring, they are facing towards Bratunac. They --
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. What now does the arrow on picture 3,
15 page 11 in hard copy -- what is the arrow attached to letter A, what does
16 that depict?
17 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's -- this arrow in the picture 3 from
18 page 11, is showing us of -- of direction of Bratunac in this part. You
19 know, just -- so showing us direction where the men are walking, which
20 direction they are walking to.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now help me. What I see in picture A --
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- is men walking and in their walking direction --
24 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- they are left of the trucks. That is looking
1 into the direction of Bratunac, they are on the left of the trucks close
2 to where the road borders the grass. Now if I look at A at the
3 photograph you have taken, it's indicated - I asked you - that at A
4 people are walking left side of the road now -- yes. I think I now
5 slowly understand how it works. The arrow A stands for the men walking
6 in the direction of Bratunac on the left-hand side of the road.
7 THE WITNESS: You are correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MS. HASAN:
10 Q. And you've got images B, C, and D on the right-hand side of the
11 road and those being the women that we saw on the video, and there were
12 some -- a few men among them; is that correct?
13 A. This is correct. And on my picture number 3 from page 11 we see
14 that they are walking on the left-hand side of the road.
15 Q. And you had also mentioned that we see them on the video being
16 directed to the other side of the road. Is that also something that we
17 hear being said?
18 A. Yes. There is a soldier or policeman, because we recognise -- we
19 recognise this -- this man who is directing the people into the left-hand
20 side. He's telling that -- showing by hand, you know, waving by hand,
21 that the men, they should -- walking along the left-hand side of the road
22 towards Bratunac. I am talking also facing to -- to Bratunac.
23 Q. Do you recall -- can you tell us from your investigation where
24 these men ended up moving towards?
25 A. Yes. Most of them ended up first in the white house. We call it
1 white house. This is the house located across the road from DutchBat.
2 Or in the trucks they were taken to Bratunac school and Bratunac stadium.
3 And then most of them to Zvornik area and ended up in the mass graves in
4 Zvornik area.
5 Q. In your image B you have an arrow pointing to a building and
6 you've identified as a Feros building, and you've also identified that in
7 your own photographs 2 and 3. Can you tell us how you were able to match
8 those buildings?
9 A. If we watch carefully the video and we take some pictures -- some
10 stills from this video, we can compare the picture, my picture, from
11 page 11. We see that this is the same building, the same bricks, red
12 bricks, and I believe you entered Fojnica Feros, the name of Feros -- the
13 name of this building is also visible on the picture of this video. And
14 shape, windows.
15 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I just want to go back to the -- the
16 witness's testimony about what was said on the video. There is a
17 transcript that accompanies this video and that text is on page 1 of the
18 English and 1 of the B/C/S, just so the record is clear on that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And has that been provided to the booth if you
20 want to refer to it?
21 MS. HASAN: Yes, I understand that it has.
22 Okay. If we could now return to Sanction and watch the video.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you mind, Ms. Hasan, to play the last ten
24 seconds of the video we just saw again. Ten to 15 seconds will do.
25 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry, Mr. President. Ms. Stewart informs me
1 that, in fact, the transcript has not been provided to the booth but this
2 will be done as soon as possible.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know how much text there is and whether it
4 causes any problems, but we'll find out.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MS. HASAN: Okay. We can pause it there. That's at 00:2:15.2.
7 Q. And Mr. Blaszczyk, you've been telling us about the men being on
8 the left side of the road and the women on the right side of the road.
9 In terms of your investigation, what was happening?
10 A. It was part of the selection men from women and children and old
11 men. As I said before, it was not just the men who were separated from
12 women and children and old men. They were bussed to Bratunac first and
13 then to Zvornik area and ended up in mass graves in Zvornik area. And
14 women, children, and old men were transported to -- to Kladanj to the
15 Federation side. And then from Kladanj they walked a little bit to
16 Federation side.
17 MS. HASAN: If we could now turn in the hard copy to pages 12 and
18 13, that's 11 and 12 in the B/C/S version. I am not going to be showing
19 the video footage from this. I believe it's already been shown to this
21 Q. Can you just tell us, Mr. Blaszczyk, where -- where these
22 individuals are -- are located? Where they are standing in Potocari
23 relative to the surroundings?
24 A. Yes. Here on the left-hand side we have the picture this is from
25 Petrovic video depicting this -- the DutchBat soldiers and UN
1 check-point, APC check-point. This is located -- the place is located
2 about 50 meets from north from the express bus compound, as I noticed in
3 notebook -- in notebook, below the notebook below this page. In fact,
4 this is not far away, about 100, 150 metres also from the gate of the
5 DutchBat and also from the white house.
6 Q. And did that hill that you have -- that we see here on page 13 of
7 your photograph, did that assist you in any way in determining the
8 location and were there any other land marks that helped you do so?
9 A. If we look at the picture marked by me by B from page 12, we see
10 the hill behind, let's say in the background of this picture, is, if you
11 look at my picture from page 13 is the same, the shape of the hill is the
12 same. And also, I noticed that on the page 12, picture D, where we see
13 three APC, we see little bit strip under the -- the road there is stream
14 coming. And we see also the strip of my picture is little bit on the --
15 almost on the mid of my picture, from page 13. This is location where
16 the -- and there is blocking position or let's say the check-point of
17 this APC was located, and showing us that the small bridge or the small
18 strip. In fact, in 2006 when I took this picture, the situation -- I
19 mean, this buildings from the page 13, on the left-hand side, this is new
20 building built after the war. I think 2005 or 2006.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we have that on the screen and then I --
22 page 13 of the hard copy. Yes. We have it here now.
23 Could you describe it in more detail where we can find this
24 stream under the street, I take it? Where can we find that?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. Just if you see on the -- almost
1 on the middle of this picture, on the bottom of this picture, this little
2 bit strip, below this is a stream, I mean the -- the street on one side
3 to another side.
4 MS. HASAN: Perhaps if Mr. Blaszczyk can be given a pointer he
5 can indicate where exactly he's referring to.
6 THE WITNESS: This is the strip I am referring to. Under the
8 MS. HASAN: We have the wrong page on the left-hand side of the
9 screen. It should be page 11.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But I think the marking is perfect. Now we know
11 to which location the witness is referring.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do I understand, Mr. Blaszczyk, that you are
13 saying that that part you have marked is a stream?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I marked, in fact, the small
15 parting or just kind of the bridge, you know, under this -- this road --
16 this stream is coming up.
17 MS. HASAN:
18 Q. Now, during the course of your investigation have you heard
19 references by witnesses to a stream or a creek or let's say a bridge in
20 that -- in this location?
21 A. Yes, Your Honour. During the course of your investigation we
22 interviewed a few Dutch soldiers who -- who indicated this location first
23 as the location where the APC check-point was located, and then the
24 stream leading us the -- not far from the place where a few bodies were
25 found by the Dutch soldiers. It's from the place where the bodies were
1 located by the Dutch soldiers is located about 100, 150 metres from this
2 place to the right-hand side, if you say, if you look at this picture, my
3 picture from the page 13.
4 MS. HASAN: If we could start running the video at 4 --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You are aware that we are not saving the
6 marking. Now we can do without because what the witness marked is that
7 the bridge is within the red dotted circle to the right-hand side of the
8 road there, there where grass appears within that circle. And just below
9 that where it seems to be a concrete structure next to the road, that is
10 what the witness marked.
11 If that's enough, otherwise you have to tender this separately.
12 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, I think your description was quite clear
13 so we can do without tendering the page.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. And could I ask then one additional
16 Is that little piece of concrete, is that what you consider to be
17 where the bridge was?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: I consider this a small bridge.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now is that the same strip of concrete which
22 we see on photo D just below the UN white vehicle on the right-hand side
23 of the road going into the direction of the photographer or the video
25 THE WITNESS: You are correct, Your Honour. This is the same
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Please proceed. And that was on page 12 of the hard copy.
4 MS. HASAN: If we could run the Petrovic video now from 04:49.
5 And if we could -- there it is. If we could just play that for a few
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, perhaps it's better to take the break
8 first, otherwise we would have to remind the witness of what he saw
9 before the break when answering questions after the break.
10 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break of 20 minutes and we'll resume at
13 10 minutes past 12.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.13 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
19 MS. HASAN: We just left off and I had asked Ms. Stewart if she
20 could play a portion of the Petrovic video, and this is starting at
21 04:49. We'll just play a few seconds of that.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MS. HASAN: Could we pause it just there. And this is at
25 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, we see here a date stamp as well as a time stamp.
1 What has your investigation revealed about the accuracy of the time
2 recorded there?
3 A. We are sure that this is the date is correct. This is
4 15 July 1995. We know it from the statements from Mr. Pirocanac and
5 driver of Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Borovcanin as well. And the time code
6 is also -- I believe, is also correct because I rely on the statements of
7 these -- these persons. Although, Mr. Pirocanac, Petrovic, is not sure
8 about -- about he put correct time and date of his video explaining that
9 he is unexperienced operating this video camera.
10 MS. HASAN: If we could turn to in the road book 65 ter 575 --
11 5759. Yes. Pages 14 and 15, that's 13 and 14 in the B/C/S. If those
12 could also be displayed side by side.
13 Q. Now, Witness, again we have the same set up here. We have got
14 the images from the Petrovic video on the left and you've done some work
15 here on the right-hand side, page 15. Can you tell us how you were able
16 to determine that the locations from the Petrovic video are, as you
17 specify here, on page 15?
18 A. It's quite visible here, having still from the Petrovic video, I
19 referring to the still C. We see on the still the blue building. We
20 call it blue building. It is near DutchBat compound. And on my picture,
21 picture number 1, from the page 15 we see the same building. We can
22 compare the shape of this building. The colour of this building is the
23 same. And also looking on the surroundings area, we -- we -- I am
24 convinced and I am sure that this is the same location. And I -- also I
25 took the picture -- we took the picture of the fence, of the remainings
1 of the fence. This is on the page 15, picture number 4. We see the
2 same -- we see this fence of most of the picture from the page 14, still
3 from the page 14.
4 Q. Now you've identified here a blue building and various witnesses
5 talk about a blue witness and a blue factory. Are those one and the
7 A. Not, Your Honour. The blue factory I am -- we are referring to
8 blue factory. This is factory located next to the Faros administration
9 building. We call this -- this -- this factory below -- I mean, behind
10 this Faros administration building blue factory because it's -- it's in
11 blue, in fact, but this is -- blue building is located from this blue
12 factory I would say about 100 metres. But -- yeah. I think the blue
13 factory is visible here on the picture number 2 from the page 15 on the
14 right of the picture.
15 MS. HASAN: It may help if we could call up Exhibit P1428
17 Q. This will be an aerial image that has markings on it already.
18 MS. HASAN: I don't know if it helps, but that exhibit had
19 65 ter 00951 before it was admitted.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We still don't have it on our screens.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 MS. HASAN: Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, we see here some markings. We see the Feros
24 building which you talked about earlier, the white house, the blue
25 factory that you just mentioned, the express bus compound. Can you tell
1 us relative to these other buildings where the blue building that you've
2 marked in your road book is?
3 A. Yes, this blue building from my note -- from my book is located
4 top from -- from the white house location. It is next house visible from
5 the white house if we are looking at the top -- to the top. Would you
6 like me to mark these buildings?
7 Q. Yes, perhaps if you can be given a pen you can maybe --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's properly marked as blue factory,
9 isn't it, or is it another one?
10 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honour. And I -- I wanted to show this
11 because there is a difference between the blue factory building and the
12 blue building that he refers to.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
14 MS. HASAN: They are different places.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
17 MS. HASAN:
18 Q. And could you just write blue building next to that so that it's
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Could you just date, on the bottom right-hand corner, date the
22 document and sign it.
23 A. [Marks]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, there is no need for that if it is
25 admitted today. That's registered in our electronic system. But if the
1 witness has done it, that's okay, but for future reference.
2 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd offer that marked
3 exhibit into evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1485, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
8 MS. HASAN: Okay. We return back to the road book, 65 ter 5759,
9 and we return to pages 16 and 17 in the hard copy. That's 15 and 16 in
10 the B/C/S version.
11 Q. And, Mr. Blaszczyk, we've now moved from -- Mr. Petrovic has now
12 moved from the blue building to this location. I am not going to play
13 the video because I think this has been shown before, but can you tell us
14 what happened there?
15 A. We are in front of the -- we called it the white house. On the
16 Petrovic video we see that Colonel Kingori and -- Major Kingori at that
17 time and Colonel Ljubisa Borovcanin, they are talking in front of the
18 white house. We see also the belongings of the people who are kept in
19 the white house. It's a -- we see a lot of bags, a lot of goods of the
20 people who were kept in the white house. Later on the people were taken
21 to Bratunac and Zvornik area. This conversation Colonel Borovcanin has
22 with Major Kingori is conducted in front of the white house. I spotted
23 this place and is visible on my page 17 -- on my pictures from the
24 page 17.
25 Q. That's where you've marked it with a C; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, this is correct.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MS. HASAN: If we can then now flip to the next page. That's
4 pages 18 and 19. Your Honours, we have already seen the footage on the
5 split screen earlier today. I am not going to replay it.
6 Q. As you can see here, Mr. Blaszczyk, you have on the left-hand
7 side of the book now footage from the Studio B version as opposed to
8 Mr. Petrovic, and am I correct that this is because it doesn't exist on
9 the Petrovic video? It's been recorded over.
10 A. It is correct.
11 Q. Okay. And you've identified the location on your photograph on
12 page 19, and now we move on to chapter 2. On page 20 we see here this
13 relates to Mr. Petrovic and Borovcanin being on the road. And let's move
14 on, now, to pages -- okay, 21 we already know that you've already plotted
15 the locations that we are about to see on that map and we see the road
16 they are driving down. Now we turn to pages 22 and 23 in the hard copy.
17 That's 21 and 22 in the B/C/S.
18 Mr. Blaszczyk, on page 22 we see here a photo, and it's marked
19 June 2006, which appears to be one of your photographs. Can you tell us
20 why you thought it was important to include these photographs here?
21 A. Yes. This is correct. This is -- in these two pages I -- I put
22 my photos from 2006. On the page 22, I have the panorama house, Sandici
23 meadow and its surroundings. It help us to orientate in terrain how it
24 looks in terrain just from -- let's say from the aerial view. We took
25 this picture from the hill, you know, above Sandici meadow. And I mark
1 on this picture quite -- two significant buildings which were mentioned
2 by few witnesses. I am referring to the destroyed white house. This
3 house is located across the road from Sandici meadow itself and destroyed
4 white house in the Sandici meadow. I called this destroyed -- I called
5 this destroyed white house -- yeah, the name is using my me, in fact, to
6 have distinguish between this white house, destroyed white house, and
7 between the white house is Potocari is totally different house of course.
8 On the Petrovic video we -- these two houses are very visible.
9 Q. I'm sorry. Just, I think, so that it's clear. You may have
10 misspoke. The smaller house that's on Sandici meadow, that's what you've
11 called the destroyed house?
12 A. Yes, correct. I cal this -- this destroyed house is destroyed
14 Q. Okay. On that particular photograph on page 22 we have arrows
15 showing Konjevic Polje and Kravica and Bratunac in the other direction,
16 just so -- because the next few pages we're going to be talking about
17 this area quite a bit, can you tell me where is east and west on this
19 A. The west is the road leading towards Konjevic Polje towards the
20 west, and east Kravica-Bratunac arrow.
21 Q. Okay. If we could now turn the page. Pages 24 and 25 in the
22 hard book -- hard copy, and 23, 24 in e-court for the B/C/S.
23 Mr. Blaszczyk we again return now to a still as you indicate in your book
24 from the Petrovic video on page 24. And you've just spoken about the
25 destroyed house which we see identified here in the background. Can you
1 tell us whether during the course of your investigation you identified
2 this individual in this still, in the forefront of this still?
3 A. Yes, during our investigation we -- we -- we found this -- this
4 person depicted on this picture from the page 24. He's a member of
5 Sekovici detachment, the police Sekovici detachment, his name is
6 Milenko Trifunovic.
7 MS. HASAN: And, Your Honours, we are going to move on to a few
8 pages where you will see a lot of uniformed pictures soldiers. Some of
9 these have been identified and I am not going to go through the
10 identifications because they are contained in our video stills book which
11 is Exhibit P1148. So those can be found in there.
12 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, one thing that comes to my mind
14 again and again, but perhaps I should also address Mr. Ivetic, what we
15 are doing we are comparing the stills of the Petrovic video with
16 photographs taken later. Now, to what extent is the dispute about what
17 is photographed in 2006 are the same locations as the locations we see on
18 the Petrovic video? I'm not going any further than that. Is there
19 dispute about this? For example, that, if I look at hard copy, page 25
20 and 24, whether the house we find on the photograph 1 on hard copy page
21 25 is the same house as depicted in the video. I'm just wondering where
22 we are in that respect.
23 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, I can only go by what is
24 displayed. I have not had an opportunity to go out into the terrain.
25 Mr. Stojanovic on our team is the only one that has the best knowledge of
1 these [overlapping speakers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Is there dispute about it, whether or not you have
3 been in the it terrain. Is there dispute about on the photographs what
4 is compared to what is on the video stills whether you say no, the
5 photographs are not the same as what we see on the video.
6 MR. IVETIC: Oh, as to the video. I -- they are just with the
7 caveat that these time stamps are different as I noted, but the stills
8 from the video are, indeed, the stills from this version of the Petrovic
9 video as I understand it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but is there dispute about the photographs
11 taken in 2006 depicting the same locations as suggested by the
12 Prosecution compared to what we see on the video?
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour will appreciate that we received this
14 book literally the final version yesterday and a few days ago the first
15 version. We have not had a chance to check to see with the one
16 individual that's been out in the terrain whether, in fact, these are
17 identical to the locations that are identified. We are not in a position
18 to make any kind of statement in that regard, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Ms. Hasan, have you tried to speak for the Defence about whether
21 there is any dispute about these matters, or is it true that they
22 received it yesterday and are not in a position? Because that might save
23 quite a bit of -- bit of time if there is no dispute about it.
24 Well, we may hear an answer to that question later. At this very
25 moment, it seems that there is no agreement. Therefore, please proceed.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, another matter, Ms. Hasan. You were
2 referring to the video still book and you mentioned an exhibit number.
3 Can you repeat that to have it clear on the record?
4 MS. HASAN: Yes, Your Honour. That's the trial -- the Srebrenica
5 trial video and it's Exhibit P1148.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
7 MS. HASAN: I'm just advised by Ms. Stewart that the Defence
8 received a hard copy of the road book on Friday, but, in fact, as far as
9 I recall, the electronic version of this has been on e-court for quite
10 some time and I believe disclosed for quite some time. But we'll get
11 that information. It was disclosed on 3rd October 2011. I think the
12 exercise of going through the book is of assistance for multiple reasons;
13 in particular, we're going to lead up to a section that relates to the
14 Kravica warehouse and this will come a bit more apparent. But at this
15 stage I will take it that the purpose of this book still needs to be
16 established -- or, sorry, not the purpose but the -- that the photographs
17 Mr. Blaszczyk took are, in fact, the locations --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Unless.
19 MS. HASAN: -- at the location.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Unless there is agreement on it.
21 But please proceed.
22 MS. HASAN:
23 Q. Okay. Mr. Blaszczyk, on page 25 of the hard copy, we see in one
24 of your photographs an individual. Is that you there standing in front
25 of the destroyed house?
1 A. Yes, yes. This is correct. It's me.
2 Q. Okay. And now you've given us a bit of a panned out view of the
3 road itself and the curvature in the road. Has that and the terrain
4 itself been of assistance to you in determining the locations?
5 A. Yes. Exactly. We compared the features of the terrain and the
6 building surrounding that just existed at that time. We can easily come
7 to the conclusion that this is the same location.
8 Q. And I see here you've identified in picture 2 on page 25 the
9 Kravica warehouse in the distance there. Can you tell us how far the
10 Kravica warehouse is from Sandici meadow.
11 A. Kravica warehouse is located about 1 kilometres from Sandici
13 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, if I'm not mistaken, if we turn to
14 pages 26 and 27 in the hard copy, which is 25 and 26 in e-court for the
15 B/C/S, there are some stills taken there, and I understand that this has
16 already been seen by the Chamber, so I won't replay it.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Blaszczyk, the Chamber is familiar with the individual
18 here, Ramo Osmanovic who is calling out to his son. How were you able to
19 determine his precise location on the video in your photographs and on
20 the map for us?
21 A. As I said following the recordings of Mr. Petrovic and looking
22 even at this picture, on the picture B, for example, I marked the small
23 house located above the Sandici meadow. It is the same small house that
24 is visible on my picture from the page 27 under picture number 1. And,
25 of course, the feature of the terrain.
1 Q. And so I take it that I would be correct in saying that
2 Ramo Osmanovic is standing at the Sandici meadow opposite the destroyed
3 white house as we see in your photograph 2?
4 A. Yes, this is correct.
5 MS. HASAN: Could we now on Sanction play 65 ter 22422, the
6 Petrovic video from 00:10:15. It will just begin with Ramo Osmanovic.
7 If we could just play that through.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Thank you. Here is Aunt Mira. I
10 cannot hide, you know. They -- whenever I worked with them, they saw
11 that I was a star. Whenever I went people were fascinated, you know. I
12 made them feel inferior because they were --"
13 MS. HASAN: This is at 10 -- 00:10:47.1.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic would like to consult.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't see anything. None of
16 this recording. Could they repeat it?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be replayed.
18 MS. HASAN: In fact it doesn't need to be replayed. It's a
19 deliberate blank of the screen. And I'll ask Mr. Blaszczyk to explain
20 what has happened here.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- the beginning, if Mr. Mladic saw the
22 beginning, then he has seen the same as we have seen.
23 Mr. Lukic, if you could verify that. What we see now is dark for
24 us as well and apparently there are some questions about it.
25 Mr. Lukic, could you check whether Mr. Mladic saw the beginning
1 of the clip?
2 Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic, there is no need for a loud conversation.
3 The only thing I want to know is whether Mr. Mladic saw the very
4 beginning of this clip which then turned black.
5 MR. LUKIC: We all saw the same.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
7 MS. HASAN:
8 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, given what we've seen and we saw black screen with
9 some voice and heard some voices. Can you tell us what happened here in
10 Petrovic's video?
11 A. As in other few parts of this Petrovic video, this is
12 overrecorded part of this video done by Mr. Petrovic. He couldn't
13 explain -- he could not explain how -- how it happened, in fact. But we
14 see that we are in Sandici meadow, the action is going on in Sandici
15 meadow, and suddenly we have the black portion. It was a redacted
16 portion or overrecorded portion, a few seconds of overrecorded portion of
17 this video. We never received original footage from this part.
18 Q. Do you know whose voices we hear?
19 A. Yes. This is the -- this is the voice of Mr. Petrovic and I
20 believe his children, but definitely this is the voice of Mr. Petrovic.
21 I am very familiar with his voice.
22 MS. HASAN: Now let's move on to 65 ter 5759, the road book, at
23 pages 28 and 29, e-court pages 27 and 28 for the B/C/S.
24 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, we see here that there are some images taken from
25 various parts of the Petrovic video. We see the time codes are
1 slightly -- we can tell they are from different parts showing these
2 various armoured vehicles and trucks in images C and -- in image C.
3 Now you've located A and B in your photograph on page 29 and we
4 don't see any markings for C and D. Why is that?
5 A. Yes, I am sure that the vehicles from the pictures C and D from
6 the page 28 are in Sandici meadow, but I couldn't locate the exact
7 location where -- where the vehicles are -- are -- are parked in Sandici
8 meadow. Definitely this is Sandici meadow but where exactly, I don't
10 Q. Now moving on --
11 A. I only guess, and I have some suspicions, but I wasn't sure that
12 this particular location. I couldn't find any marks, you know, just I
13 could compare with Petrovic video.
14 MS. HASAN: If we can go back to the video now, 65 ter 2242, the
15 Petrovic video, starting at 00:11:19.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Boro, shall we swap pistols?
18 "Let me see.
19 "Do you have a spare?
21 "All right. Shall we swap?
22 "Are you for ...?
25 MS. HASAN: Okay. We can just stop it right there. And that's
1 at time code 00:11:58.1. If we turn to the road book at pages 30 and 31,
2 29 and 30 in the B/C/S on the e-court.
3 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, we saw a conversation take place here. Can you
4 tell us who the individuals are depicted in your photographs on page --
5 sorry, on the images from the Petrovic video on page 30?
6 A. On the images marked by me by B from the page 30, this is
7 Ljubisa Borovcanin, the commander of -- of MUP units. And on the image
8 marked A, we -- we see two members of MUP forces, one -- they are two
9 brothers, in fact. One of them is the member of the special police
10 brigade, and the other one, I think, is a member of a PJP unit,
11 PJP 1st Company.
12 Q. And can you tell us just very briefly the difference between
13 these units, the PJP and the special police brigade?
14 A. Yeah. Special police brigade, it was forces or brigade created
15 for the combat operations, and the brigade itself was divided for fuel
16 detachments. I believe -- I think, as far as I remember, there were six
17 detachments. And PJP units, they are unit created in the -- in the MUP.
18 In one area there is the PJP. In this particular case, we are referring
19 to PJP units from the Zvornik central -- in front of Zvornik MUP station.
20 And PJP units were created by police officers from particular centre.
21 This is centre of Zvornik at that time and PJP units were divided for the
22 six company, PJP units of the Zvornik centre was divided for the 6th
23 Company. Yeah, if this is enough.
24 Q. Thank you. Now we heard the conversation with Mr. Borovcanin and
25 these two individuals about swapping guns. Can you tell us from your
1 investigation what the command relationship is between Mr. Borovcanin and
2 those units?
3 A. Mr. Borovcanin was the commander of all units which took part in
4 this -- MUP units, of course, which took part in this Srebrenica
5 operation including this day, this particular day. And as I said, one of
6 these brother is the member of -- of the special police brigade, that one
7 who is swapping the pistol with Mr. Borovcanin. We see the badge of his
8 left arm. This is the badge of the special police brigade. And another
9 member is of -- he's a member of the 1st PJP Company, and he was also
10 subordinated at that time to Mr. Borovcanin, but usually PJP units they
11 have their own command. This is chief of the centre. At that time it
12 was Mr. Vasic. And overall commander of the PJP units of the Zvornik
13 centre was Danilo Zoljic.
14 Q. Now have you through your investigation learned what the command
15 relationship, if any -- if there was any between the MUP forces and the
16 VRS in July of 1995?
17 A. Yes. At that time in July 1995 the MUP forces were subordinated
18 to VRS. I think this is reflected in one of the Ministry of Interior
20 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, I think we are getting into expert
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether it's expert or not, at least the
23 foundation for the fact or whether there is any factual knowledge is
24 still to be established, Ms. Hasan.
25 We started by comparing a video with all kind of photographs, and
1 now we are -- the witness giving you us -- telling us who was in what
2 position, et cetera. There is no basis laid for that yet at this moment.
3 MS. HASAN: My questions arose from these photographs and the
4 relationships between Mr. Borovcanin and the soldiers.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MS. HASAN: And then stemming from that because -- because of
7 where this road is, the context of the road, the relationship with the
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you know where someone is on the road, do you
10 then know what troops he's commanding? I mean, I see that you start from
11 there with your questions, but the issue is where is the foundation for
12 the knowledge the witness gives us? It could not be that they are seen
13 together on a photograph.
14 Please proceed.
15 MS. HASAN: As far as the witness's knowledge is concerned, it's
16 based on him testifying that he was an investigator of the --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But does that mean that if you are an
18 investigator that everything you tell us should be taken for the truth?
19 It may well be that the witness is right, but no establishing -- no
20 foundation has been established. Keep this in mind when you continue
21 your questions.
22 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, it's ten to and a good time for the
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think we started at 10 past.
25 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We have sessions of one hour.
2 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry.
3 If we turn to pages 32 and 33 in the road book, 31 and 32 for the
4 B/C/S in e-court.
5 Q. Witness, how -- can you tell us in terms of these images on
6 the -- on the page 32 from the Petrovic video where Mr. Petrovic was
7 standing when he filmed this?
8 A. Following the movement of Mr. Petrovic camera, I located his
9 place where he was standing while recording these events here depicted on
10 the page 32. He's standing in front of the destroyed white house across
11 the road from Sandici meadow.
12 Q. And were you able to tell whether that's where he was standing
13 when he filmed Mr. Borovcanin and the two soldiers?
14 A. Yes. He -- I was able. Yeah. He was standing on the road. In
15 fact, he was -- yeah, he was standing on the road and recording
16 Mr. Borovcanin and in -- these two soldiers.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. It was --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness explain that answer. How could
20 you, because I see the --
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- what were the -- what was the orientation where
23 you could conclude that he was standing on the road and where, on what
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. If we look at the picture B from
1 the page 30.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: On the left top corner we see the -- not very,
4 very, visible, but this is part of the destroyed white house. If we
5 played the video with good equipment, we could see the part of the
6 destroyed white house located that was the road from Sandici meadow.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have that on our screens so that we can
8 follow it because if you say that you can see but it's not well
9 visible --
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- that means that we have to look at it.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Actually, I'm a bit lost now because I thought
13 Madam Hasan had asked us to look at page 32 and 33 and I hear now the
14 witness is talking about page 30. Were are we --
15 JUDGE ORIE: We --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where are we?
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think we moved from where the camera was. At one
18 point in time when the group was filmed you said he was at the -- others
19 on the road. And then you said that from there as well that he filmed
20 Borovcanin and that other person and that is found on page 30, if I
21 understand well. And I asked you what was it that you could determine
22 that he filmed the two gentlemen in the grassy surrounding from that same
23 point or at least from that road.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, exactly Your Honour. If I just -- I base it
25 on the movement of the camera which was hold by Mr. --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
2 THE WITNESS: Mr. Pirocanac.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. On the still you cannot see the movement of
4 the camera.
5 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You say because the camera moves from the group to
7 the other side of the road, that is why you determined that it was at the
8 same location. That is clear to me.
9 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, we've just lined up the video. Would
10 you like to see that or should we dispense with that?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there is any dispute about it, then we'd
12 like to look at it. I just wanted to know what made the witness
13 determine that's how it was. He has explained it and that's his answer.
14 I'm not asking for the video to be played.
15 MS. HASAN:
16 Q. Now on page 32 on image A, you've marked a small white house.
17 And on the left -- in the left side of that video still image, there is
18 an object there. Can you tell us what that is?
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said, Ms. Hasan, that he indicated or he put
20 the word "small white house," I only can see "small house."
21 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I misspoke.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. This is -- yeah. I marked here,
23 you know, the small house located above Sandici meadow and the same small
24 house is visible on my picture -- or camera picture, in fact, from
25 page 33. And location to this small house in relation to Sandici meadow
1 and surroundings.
2 MS. HASAN:
3 Q. And Mr. Blaszczyk just -- on image A, if you could take a look at
4 that. On page 32 we see two things, on the left-hand side in the image
5 next to the crowd of prisoners there we see an object, as well as on the
6 bottom right-hand side there is a white -- a white object which looks
7 like an antenna. Can you tell us what those are?
8 A. Yes. We establish that and has been -- I believe it has been
9 confirmed by Mr. Borovcanin driver that this is roof of his car. He used
10 the car SEAT Toledo antenna on his roof. I believe this is
11 Mr. Borovcanin car.
12 Q. And, Mr. Blaszczyk, when you tell us what your investigation has
13 revealed and when you tell us who the members of the units are and their
14 relationships, what do you base your knowledge on?
15 A. I base it on my investigation. Also on the interviews I
16 conducted personally and also my colleagues conducted with a lot of
17 witnesses. And, of course, after analysing their documents which
18 containing the names of -- of recognise the people from the video.
19 Q. So, for instance, when you tell us that that's a tank there next
20 to the crowd of prisoners you're also basing that on evidence from
21 witnesses you or your colleagues in the investigation have conducted?
22 A. Yes. Correct. I believe we talk -- this -- this car -- this
23 tank is belong to Sekovici detachment, special police brigade
24 2nd Sekovici detachment. We interviewed the members of the Sekovici
25 detachment. We confirm that this tank belong to their unit.
1 MS. HASAN: Okay. If we could then run the video again, the
2 Petrovic video, where we left off. And that was -- that's fine. We can
3 start right there, Janet.
4 We're just starting a little bit before we left off and that's
5 00:11:45. If we could just play that through for a few seconds.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Who? There. He's filming us.
8 "What does he want again?
9 "What does he want?
10 "See the bullets?"
11 MS. HASAN: If we can pause it there. That's at 00:12:16.1.
12 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, there was another segment there that had a black
13 screen and then what looked like a crate of ammunition. Can you tell us
14 what -- what -- what's happening there?
15 A. Yes, this is another black segment, a public redacted part of the
16 original raw material Petrovic. But we never received the footages from
17 this redacted portion. And then we are coming to the recording of
18 Mr. Petrovic, recording on the raw images. Just he -- he follows the two
19 APCs on the road towards Pervani.
20 MS. HASAN: If you -- if we could turn now to pages 34 and 35.
21 Q. And Mr. Blaszczyk on page 34 we have an image there with two
22 different time stamps and some red dotted line there. Can you tell us
23 what this image is?
24 A. Yes. We -- especially we -- we merged these two footage -- two
25 stills from Petrovic video showing -- showing exactly the location
1 when -- when the footage was recorded. And this is why we did it and
2 this is why we have two different time stamps here.
3 MS. HASAN: And, Ms. Stewart, if I could ask you to roll the
4 Petrovic video once again from where we left off. If we could get the
5 image on everyone's screens, please. Thank you.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] You have two men from the other
10 "Lucic and the man with him."
11 MS. HASAN: Okay. We could stop right there. And that's at
13 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, can you tell us at this point is Mr. Borovcanin
14 still with Mr. Petrovic?
15 A. Yes, correct. Mr. Borovcanin together with Mr. Petrovic. They
16 are following these two APCs. And Mr. Petrovic is recording, yeah, the
17 movement of these two APCs including -- we see also on this part of the
18 footage Mr. Borovcanin.
19 Q. And we'll -- we'll play that on in just a moment, but can you
20 tell us where along the road we are at this point? We've moved away from
21 Sandici meadow?
22 A. Yeah. Yes. We moved away from Sandici meadow. We are towards
23 Konjevic Polje road. We are located about 200 -- 2.800 metres from
24 Sandici meadow.
25 MS. HASAN: Now we will continue playing the video and there will
1 be another black screen. And that's, again, a deliberate black screen.
2 And we'll just run it through. If Ms. Stewart can hit play on that.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MS. HASAN: Ms. Stewart, if we could pause it there, please.
5 Q. A few things, Mr. Blaszczyk.
6 MS. HASAN: Sorry, we stopped it at 00:14:30.8.
7 Q. Just in that last part of the clip, Mr. Blaszczyk, who did we see
8 in the -- in the -- in the video walking away from the camera?
9 A. I believe this is Mr. Borovcanin.
10 Q. And we heard some music. Where is that music coming from?
11 A. This music comes from the car belong to -- used by Mr. Borovcanin
12 and Petrovic.
13 MS. HASAN: And if we just back one screen shot. Back to the --
14 to the -- armoured vehicles, a little bit further. Okay. We can stop
16 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, again here we have a time stamp recorded. What
17 can you tell us about the accuracy of that?
18 A. Yeah. Definitely this is 13 July 1995, and I believe based on
19 the witness statements that it -- the time code is correct. This is
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, can I ask the witness the following.
22 Again and again we are talking about whether the time is
23 accurate, yes or no. In your -- have your investigations revealed
24 that -- you say it's the same time. Have you verified that on the basis
25 of the pictures? Because if you know the date, then, of course, it must
1 be relatively easy to see, within certain limits, what the time is? I
2 mean, shadows are the same every year on the 13th of July. The sun --
3 the position of the sun is the same, therefore the shadow should be the
4 same as well. Have you ever -- because the question comes up again and
6 THE WITNESS: Is correct, Your Honour, we made some exercise but
7 in relation to Kravica warehouse with shadow. But we didn't do that, I
8 mean, just with the shadow, I mean just related to -- to Petrovic video.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah, but the --
10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
11 JUDGE ORIE: But the warehouse, you said, that's where you did
12 it. Did it turn out to be accurate in -- or were you unable to establish
14 THE WITNESS: We were not able to establish the exact time --
15 JUDGE ORIE: No.
16 THE WITNESS: -- recorded but approximately, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. HASAN: Ms. Stewart, if we could now continue playing the
20 video for a few more seconds, and this will take us to the next page in
21 the road book.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MS. HASAN: Okay. We can pause it right there. And that's at
25 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, we saw a number of houses that appear to have been
1 extracted by you here on page 36 in your road book, and tell us how you
2 went about identifying the location of where Mr. Petrovic and
3 Mr. Borovcanin were at this point in the video?
4 A. It is the position of these two APCs now and a little bit further
5 down towards Konjevic Polje. We are in Pervani. It's about 300 metres
6 further from the previous location. I was able to locate these four
7 houses also depicted in Petrovic video. The houses were rebuilt, of
8 course, in 2006, but if you look closely on the shape of the windows,
9 roofs, and following the movement of the camera we see that we are
10 referring to the same houses.
11 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, Your Honours, I am going to move on to
12 another video segment and perhaps I have it correct now that it's time
13 for a break.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It's now ten minutes past 1.00.
15 We'll take a break after the witness has been escorted out of the
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE ORIE: And we resume at 1.30.
19 --- Recess taken at 1.10 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, before we continue, could you inform the
24 Chamber where we are in terms of timing?
25 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I don't anticipate I will finish
1 today. However, we have moved a bit slowly at the beginning because of
2 co-ordinating and getting used to how the book and the LiveNote -- I'm
3 sorry, the e-court works with the video. So I was -- my estimate was
4 just based on that. I will go -- I believe I have a little bit more time
5 after -- after that, so I will spill into Monday. I'm sorry, Tuesday.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You're seeking permission to go beyond your
7 estimate. That's what I understand.
8 You asked for four hours? Three hours? I'm a bit lost because I
9 have several time indications. What was the last one you gave to the
11 MS. HASAN: It was three hours, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Three hours.
13 MS. HASAN: And Ms. Stewart informed me that Mr. Blaszczyk is not
14 scheduled to testify again until I believe it's the 14th of June, so
15 that's when his examination will resume.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
19 MR. GROOME: -- just inform you. If the Chamber looks at the
20 witness schedule there are two witnesses next week for whom attorneys are
21 required and arrangements have been made.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I am aware that there is a rather rigid
23 schedule for next week.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. HASAN:
1 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, if you could turn to and if we could all turn to
2 page 38 and 39 in the stills book. I'm sorry, I misspoke again. It's
3 not the stills book. It's the road book.
4 MS. HASAN: And that's 65 ter 5759, pages 37 and 38 in the B/C/S
5 in the e-court.
6 Q. We are going to see this footage of the houses that you've
7 extracted. But looking at the photos you have taken on page 39, at least
8 they appear to me to be a little bit different. In particular, if I can
9 turn your attention to paragraph number 1. Could you please explain the
10 difference here.
11 A. Your Honour, in 2006 I was able to -- to locate this, the place
12 recorded by Mr. Petrovic in July of 1995. I was able to locate, in fact,
13 one damaged house in -- in 2006. But to confirm the exact location, I
14 talked to the owner of this house. In fact, the owner of the house next
15 to this damaged house from 2006. I showed him the picture of the stills
16 from Petrovic video and he was -- the owner of the house since the
17 beginning, since before the war, even, he says that definitely this is
18 his house, just that this picture depicted his houses. And we have one
19 of these house on my picture from the page 39. This is on the picture 2.
20 Q. So the other two houses in your photograph 1, just in front of
21 the damaged house, those did not exist then at the time of the -- of the
22 Petrovic video in July --
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. -- of 1995?
25 A. Yes, it is correct. These two houses were not existed at that
1 time. In fact, one was built and the higher one was rebuilt after the
2 war. And the -- let's say the smaller one was built after the war also.
3 Q. And when you say "rebuilt," are you talking about the -- the
4 unmarked house we see in images A and B on page 38?
5 A. Yes. This is correct.
6 Q. If we could continue watching the Petrovic video.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Yes, yes, but to avoid any
9 surprises there won't be any --
10 MS. HASAN: Can we just pause it there momentarily, and that's
12 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, we now saw Mr. Borovcanin, Mr. Petrovic, we know
13 were in Sandici meadow. They are moving along the road. You told us
14 they were following the APCs. And now can you tell us where we've
15 arrived? We've seen that the car started moving again. Where are they
16 headed now?
17 A. These are the first footage we see the car moving towards Sandici
18 and Kravica, from the direction of Pervani and Konjevic Polje. It is the
19 first footage recorded by Mr. Petrovic, Pirocanac, during his movement on
20 the road Konjevic Polje-Sandici-Kravica.
21 Q. Okay. Are you saying that they have turned around at this point?
22 A. Yes. In fact, not exactly on this point because as we see I
23 located this -- this -- this location. This is -- I spotted this
24 location. This is about 2.000 metres from Sandici meadow itself, but the
25 previous picture we saw these two APC. It was recorded about
1 3.000 metres from Sandici meadow. It means further down towards
2 Konjevic Polje. But Mr. Pirocanac, Petrovic, started to record his video
3 again while being in this location, this particular location. This is
4 about 2.000 metres from Sandici meadow.
5 Q. So if I understand you correctly, at some time which you haven't
6 been able to determine with precision, the car is moving towards
7 Konjevic Polje, turns around, and is now moving back to Sandici where
8 they were?
9 A. Yes, this is correct. I can say only -- yeah, we can see here
10 that the last footage recorded by Mr. Petrovic on the way toward
11 Konjevic Polje was done in Pervani. We see these two APCs on the road.
12 This is the last footage under -- on his movement towards Konjevic Polje.
13 The first movement towards -- the first recorded movement towards Sandici
14 meadow returning way -- this spot, 2.000 metres from Sandici meadow.
15 MS. HASAN: If I could start Ms. Stewart if we could start
16 replaying this again about 10 seconds before this point. A little bit --
17 that's fine, thanks.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Yes, yes, but to avoid any
21 "There won't be any.
22 "Take this tanker to the building and leave it there. I need it
24 "Your tanker is waiting here.
25 "Officer Bor.
1 "I'm listening.
2 "Stop the traffic behind you.
3 "Kovac said he would do it.
4 "I know."
5 MS. HASAN: Could we just pause it right there, please. This is
6 00:17:00.1. And the transcript reference for the conversation there is
7 on page 10 in the English and page 11 in the B/C/S.
8 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, there is a couple of things I want to ask you
9 about that conversation we've just heard. First there was a reference to
10 a column moving. Throughout the course of your investigation, are you
11 able to tell us what that is a reference to?
12 A. Yes, during the course of our investigation we are able to
13 establish that they are referring to the column of the prisoners of the
14 Muslim men captured in -- near Sandici meadow and taken from Sandici
15 meadow to Kravica warehouse. And this is conversation about -- most
16 probably about this column and it has been confirmed by various
17 witnesses, even by the witness who was a member was Sekovici detachment
18 who itself stopped the traffic, you know, just on -- in -- in the place
19 of Kravica, in the centre of Kravica village. His name is Milenko Pepic.
20 Q. And how is it possible that we're actually hearing this
22 A. As -- as we notice before, the radio was installed in
23 Mr. Borovcanin car. We saw the aerial of the radio on his car in -- near
24 Sandici meadow. He use his -- his car radio. And they have for their
25 disposal also the handsets.
1 MS. HASAN: Now it may be easy just to see this. If we could
2 pull up the transcript, in fact, because this is a rolling transcript.
3 If we could display page 10 in English, 11 in the B/C/S. And this is
4 attached to 65 ter 22422. So it's an attachment to the video, the
5 Petrovic video.
6 Q. Now as that comes up, Mr. Blaszczyk, we see the acronym "LJB" on
7 the transcript and the transcript itself tells us it's
8 Ljubisa Borovcanin. Can you confirm that he is engaged in that
10 A. Yes, I can confirm this is Ljubisa Borovcanin words. Even I
11 recognise his voice.
12 Q. Okay. We still don't have that on the screen, but we have
13 Mr. Borovcanin saying, "Oficir Bor." Can you tell us what "oficir" is a
14 reference to?
15 A. Oficir, this is a nickname of Rade Cuturic, who was a commander
16 of the Sekovici detachment, the police Sekovici detachment. And Bor it
17 was code-name or name used by his subordinates of Ljubisa Borovcanin.
18 Q. If you could just clarify for us how it is that you know that,
19 that, in fact, these are their -- these are these individuals?
20 A. As I said, during the course of our investigation we talked to
21 many people, many members of Sekovici detachment and the police. And
22 also if Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin himself, he confirmed that this is a Bor
23 is referring to him and oficir is the nickname of Rade Cuturic.
24 Q. Now we have just after that NMG. This is recorded as
25 unidentified male voice on Motorola 1 saying -- Motorola 2 - I'm sorry -
2 "I'm listening."
3 And Mr. Borovcanin saying:
4 "Stop the traffic behind on you."
5 Can you tell us do you know who the male voice is? Have you
6 determined that through the course of your investigation, and explaining
7 to us what is meant here by "stop the traffic behind you"?
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: I'm confused. If it's identified as unidentified, I
11 don't know -- I guess they are asking for specification unless we have
12 some -- some foundation for this. I'm really having a hard time figuring
13 out how to approach this.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness is invited to tell us whether he
15 knows who the male voice is and how he knows it. That -- so we'll listen
16 to the answer. And, of course, he's not invited to speculate.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. As I said, I know quite well the
18 voice of Mr. Borovcanin. And I believe this is the voice of
19 Mr. Borovcanin, "Stop the traffic behind you." And the other
20 unidentified man on the Motorola, I believe this is Cuturic. But I based
21 my observation on the later conversation that somebody -- somebody from
22 the car, you know, saying I think -- I don't remember now, but somebody
23 saying that that oficir is speaking. Oficir, this is the nickname of
24 Cuturic. And in regards to -- to stopping the traffic, you know, just, I
25 believe -- and Borovcanin I believe also confirm it in his statement that
1 he's referring to the traffic need to be stopped in Kravica village.
2 MS. HASAN:
3 Q. Do you know where Mr. Cuturic is at this point in time?
4 A. Yes. Mr. Cuturic is in Kravica.
5 Q. Okay. Do you -- now, he's instructed to stop the traffic by
6 Mr. Borovcanin. Can you tell us in terms of your investigation what
7 traffic are we talking about?
8 A. Yeah. We established that a few witnesses, they are talking
9 about, including Milenko Pepic who stopped the traffic, in fact. He said
10 that it was related to the movement of -- of the buses and trucks with
11 population from Potocari. They were transported along this road towards
13 Q. And just for clarification, when you say the movement of the
14 population from Potocari, you are referring to which population exactly?
15 A. I am referring to Muslim population, to women and children and
16 old men who were separated from men in Potocari and they were put in the
17 buss and trucks and then transported to Tisca.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the name of this location
19 we are transported to because we have now two different recordings.
20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I am referring to Tisca.
21 This is the place located near Kladanj. Tisca, T-i-s-c-a.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Now the traffic is being stopped around Kravica. Can you tell us
25 what's happening at Kravica?
1 A. Yes. As we know -- as we established, in Kravica warehouse there
2 were -- the Muslim who were kept in Kravica warehouse, they were killed
3 over there inside the warehouse. And also we see it on edited version of
4 Petrovic video, we see that -- we see that the bodies in front of the
5 Kravica warehouse. People were killed we established by the members of
6 the Sekovici detachment and the police and probably at least one member
7 of the army took the part in killings.
8 Q. And when you say that the population, the men that were in the
9 Kravica warehouse were killed, are you able to tell us whether this, in
10 fact, was happening around the time this conversation takes place about
11 stopping the traffic after -- or what do you know about the timing of
13 A. In fact, I am not sure. We are not sure whether the killings
14 happened at -- in -- actually in this time when they -- there was
15 conversation about stopping the traffic. But definitely it -- it
16 happened shortly after that. If we follow the recordings of
17 Mr. Petrovic, we can count minutes and seconds, you know, just, and then
18 we can follow the Petrovic raw footage. We see that there is the blank
19 portion of -- of -- of his footage or overrecorded portion of his footage
20 where we are supposed to have this Kravica incident. But later on if we
21 play the Petrovic video on -- in Sandici, when he recorded events in
22 Sandici before going towards Kravica, we hear some shooting from
23 machine-guns. And also if we have good quality of the video we can also
24 hear two explosions, at least two explosion of hand grenades. I believe
25 that they are hand grenades. I believe at that time execution occurred
1 in Kravica warehouse.
2 Q. Okay. So we are going -- Mr. Borovcanin and Petrovic are going
3 to -- Mr. Petrovic are going to be moving down the road towards Sandici
4 where we will watch what you've just described for us. In between that,
5 though, we see some images from their journey along that road.
6 MS. HASAN: So if we could turn now to the road book at page 40
7 and 41. And this is 65 ter 5759. It's pages 39 and 40 in the B/C/S
8 version. That's for e-court.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Blaszczyk, we see here that you've captured some images
10 from the video showing some armed uniformed soldiers. Have -- do you
11 know what units they belong to?
12 A. Yes. These soldiers, according to the statement of the
13 witnesses, they were the part of -- of MUP forces. Most likely the
14 members of Jahorina, Jahorina unit, from training centre in Jahorina.
15 Q. And tell us where -- where we find ourselves now and how you were
16 able to identify where these men are standing on the road?
17 A. We are in the village of Lolici, this is the village located from
18 Sandici meadow, about 1.900 metres. And we see the wall, the retaining
19 wall. The wall still exist in the same shape and the same location. If
20 we compare the shape of the wall this is the same location, and following
21 of course the movement of the camera.
22 MS. HASAN: Let's turn the page. So we're on 42 and 43 in the
23 hard copy, 41 and 42 on e-court.
24 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, can you also explain here. We see some quite -- I
25 mean, some of these images are quite blurred. Can you tell us how come
1 that is and how you were, despite that, able to identify where these men
2 are standing or located?
3 A. Mr. Borovcanin and Petrovic, of course, they are driving in their
4 car towards Sandici now. And because of the movement of the car and
5 because of due to his equipment he had, for the recordings, he was not
6 able to have very clear picture of the people standing along the road.
7 But talking to the members of Jahorina unit, talking to the members of
8 other MUP units which were placed in this location, we are sure -- we
9 know that this -- these people belonged to Jahorina unit.
10 Q. And --
11 A. Without knowing their name, of course, but because Jahorina unit,
12 it was the unit containing - how to say? - deserters from Bosnia who were
13 later on captured on the territory of the Serbia and forced -- by force
14 taken to Bosnia again and put in the unit, MUP unit training centre in
15 Jahorina. Later on, this unit was deployed on the area of Srebrenica.
16 Q. Now is the retaining wall that we see on page 43, is that the
17 same retaining wall that we saw on the previous page?
18 A. No, it's not the same wall because if we drive through this area
19 we see -- we see -- we see quite many of these kind of the walls but not
20 the same.
21 Q. And so I take it, then, that this is a retaining wall that's a
22 little bit further along from the previous one; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, this is correct. It's closer to Sandici meadow than the
24 previous one.
25 Q. Now on page 43 we see here what you've marked as X, a white X,
1 and you've got a description on the bottom there that it relates to an
2 exhumation. Can you tell us a little bit about that and your marking?
3 A. Yes. We know that in this -- this place, which were marked by X
4 and in white colour, exhumation was conducted in June 2004 by Bosnia
5 federal commission for missing persons. And during this exhumation I
6 believe, as I could remember, about 17 -- 17 bodies were exhumed. And,
7 Your Honour, we know it also from the witnesses that some execution took
8 place in Sandici meadow itself. Whether the people were killed in
9 Sandici meadow or near Sandici meadow, we were not able to establish it
10 for 100 per cent.
11 Q. Okay. Moving on to page 44 in the hard copy and page 45.
12 MS. HASAN: That's 43 and 44 on the B/C/S.
13 Q. Again we see another image here of a soldier and it's pretty
14 clear that you've marked that on -- on the road. And just remind us now
15 how far we've travelled and how close we are to Sandici.
16 A. In this picture we are coming closer to Sandici meadow. We are
17 about 250 metres from Sandici meadow.
18 Q. Turning the page again to page 46 and page 47, we see -- we see
19 more soldiers and, again, you've -- you've marked here that they are
20 about 200 metres from Sandici meadow. And I'd like to ask you about the
21 photograph on page 47 marked number 2. It's a -- we see the whole road
22 in photograph number 1, the winding road, we see you've marked Sandici
23 meadow in this destroyed white house. Now, the photograph 2 looks like
24 it's going in a circle. Can -- is that the case or what's happening
1 A. Yes, you -- Your Honour, I would like to clarify. It looks like
2 a cycle but in reality it looking a little bit different. This is a
3 bending road but because we merged two photos, we did, in fact, panorama
4 photos of this particular segment of the road, and this looks a little
5 bit like a cycle but in reality it is a rather straight one having, of
6 course, the curve later on.
7 MS. HASAN: All right. Let's then turn the page to pages 48 and
8 49 in the hard copy, 47 and 48 on e-court for the B/C/S.
9 Q. Now here we see that - and we'll watch this clip in a moment -
10 but we see that in image B Mr. Borovcanin has stepped out of the car.
11 Tell us what's happened now in terms of Mr. Petrovic and Borovcanin's
13 A. Mr. Borovcanin left the car -- they stopped the car, in fact,
14 near Sandici meadow. Mr. Borovcanin walked towards Sandici meadow. He
15 talked to his soldiers on the spot. And Mr. Petrovic, Pirocanac, is
16 recording the events around -- around this place.
17 Q. And --
18 A. We are very near Sandici meadow.
19 Q. And we can see that on page 49 you've indicated there position
20 vis-a-vis Sandici meadow and the Kravica warehouse as well.
21 MS. HASAN: If we could start playing the Petrovic video. If we
22 could start at 17 -- 17 minutes and 30. Yeah, if we could start rolling
23 that video from here.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Come over here there is something.
1 "There is more up there.
2 "Come on, fellows. Come out. Come on, fellows. Come out. Just
3 put your hands in the air. Come on.
4 "Hurry up.
5 "About 50 will. About 50 from this slope for sure.
7 "From that slope about 50 of them should come down.
8 "Behind that slope.
10 "Come on, fellows. Come out. Mother fuckers.
11 "How many have already come out so far?
12 "Well, about, 3- to 4.000, surely.
13 "They all surrender to you here?
15 "When I say this in Belgrade, they usually say an exaggerated
17 "Well, it is exaggerated. Of course it is.
18 "But how many of them are there?
19 "Yes. That many, that many."
20 MS. HASAN: Can we just pause it here for a minute. This is at
22 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, during the course of the investigation, have you
23 been able to identify this individual?
24 A. Yes, this is member of Jahorina unit. I do not recall his name
25 now. But definitely he is member of Jahorina unit.
1 Q. Now he -- he makes a reference to them having 3.000 -- that 3.000
2 to 4.000 have surrendered. In terms of that figure and your
3 investigation, does that figure sound about right?
4 A. Yes. During your investigation, reviewing the statements of the
5 witnesses and -- yeah, I believe that the figure is quite right. At this
6 time of day, 13th of July, afternoon, that they may have about few
7 thousand of people.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MS. HASAN: If we can continue with the tape, please.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, I need seven minutes, approximately, to
11 deliver a decision. So before we enter a new area, perhaps.
12 You were about to do that?
13 MS. HASAN: Yes, absolutely. We can stop right here. I'll just
14 make a note of the time. We're at 00:19:10.7.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MS. HASAN: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Blaszczyk, we'll not be able to conclude
18 your examination-in-chief today. I do understand that you're scheduled
19 to come back on the 14th, you said -- 14th of June because we have a
20 rather strict schedule for next week.
21 Meanwhile, I would like to instruct you that you should not speak
22 with anyone or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your
23 testimony, whether that is testimony you've given already or whether
24 that's testimony still to be given upon your return.
25 Ms. Hasan.
1 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, as was the case with Ms. Gallagher
2 when she testified, Mr. Blaszczyk is an investigator within the OTP and
3 to some extent -- in the same extent as Ms. Gallagher, there may be some
4 normal communication but not relating to his testimony and we'd just ask
5 for the same -- the same instructions that applied.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the Defence did not -- not to speak
7 about the testimony, not to speak about the subject matter of the
8 testimony, and not a strict prohibition to exchange a word with -- with
9 others. But you should take it very strict, Mr. Blaszczyk, so not to
10 communicate in any way about matters on which you are testifying here.
11 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then having given you these instructions, you
13 can follow the usher, and we'd like to see you back. It will be
14 communicated to you exactly when, but I do understand the 14th of June.
15 But we could immediately start with your testimony, we'll see at that
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: As I said, I will deliver a decision on behalf of
21 this Chamber.
22 The Chamber delivers its decision on the Prosecution's notice of
23 disclosure of expert report of six forensic expert witnesses pursuant to
24 Rule 94 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, filed on the
25 7th of November, 2012, concerning witnesses Jose Pablo Baraybar,
1 John Clark, William Haglund, Chris Lawrence, Fredy Peccerelli, and
2 Richard Wright.
3 On the 10th of December, 2012, the Chamber granted the Defence
4 request of 30 November, 2012, for an extension of time to file its
5 Rule 94 bis(B) notice until the 21st of January, 2013. After an informal
6 communication by the Chamber requesting the Prosecution's submission on
7 how it I intended to tender these witnesses' evidence in light of the
8 absence of a Defence notice, on the 29th of January, 2013, the Defence
9 made submissions in court to the effect that it required more time to
10 file its notice. The Chamber directed the parties to discuss scheduling
11 matters of these witnesses and to inform the Chamber of the outcome of
12 such discussions, accordingly. This can be found at transcript
13 pages 7650 to 7651.
14 Further communications between the parties and the Chamber
15 followed in court on the 18th of February, informally on the 22nd and the
16 28th of February, and by means of a reminder to the parties in court on
17 the 1st of March, 2013, for an update. Not having received any further
18 submissions from the parties on the matter, the Chamber, per informal
19 communication on the 28th of March, 2013 - put on the record on the
20 8th of April of 2013 at transcript page 9521 - informed the Defence that
21 it was expected to file its Rule 94 bis(B) notice by the
22 22nd of April, 2013, which the Defence did.
23 In its notice, the Defence challenges the methodology and
24 reliability of all of the proffered reports, submitting moreover that
25 some of the conclusions reached therein lack crucial information required
1 by the Defence to properly challenge the reports. The Defence requests
2 that the Prosecution either be ordered to supplement its submissions in
3 this regard, reserving the right to fully challenge the reports once a
4 proper application has been submitted. Alternatively, the Defence
5 opposes admission into evidence of the said reports, and requests the
6 opportunity to cross-examine the witnesses.
7 The Defence does not challenge the expertise of the six
8 witnesses. Upon review of their CVs, the Chamber is satisfied that they
9 have specialised knowledge. Such knowledge may be of assistance to the
10 Chamber in assessing the evidence to be presented by the Prosecution on
11 the exhumation of grave-sites related to the alleged killings of Bosnian
12 Muslims following the fall of Srebrenica. It therefore considers
13 Witnesses Baraybar, Haglund, Peccerelli, as experts in the field of
14 forensic anthropology; Witnesses Clark and Lawrence as experts in the
15 field of forensic pathology; and Witness Wright as an expert in the field
16 of forensic archeology, for the purpose of their anticipated evidence
17 before the Chamber.
18 The Chamber notes that the Defence has not provided any
19 specification as to the additional information it would require to
20 properly challenge the proffered reports of these witnesses, as
21 submitted. In its latest witness schedule, the Prosecution has planned
22 for the potential testimony of these witnesses to start in the second
23 week of July 2013. The Defence will have the full opportunity to further
24 explore the alleged flaws in methodology and reliability of the
25 respective reports at that stage.
1 The Chamber hereby decides, pursuant to Rule 94 bis of the Rules,
2 that Jose Pablo Baraybar, John Clark, William Haglund,
3 Christopher Lawrence, Fredy Peccerelli, and Richard Wright may be called
4 to testify as expert witnesses, and shall be made available for
5 cross-examination by the Defence. The Chamber defers its decision on
6 admission into evidence of the tendered reports for these witnesses until
7 the time of their respective testimonies.
8 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
9 We adjourn for the day and we will resume Tuesday, the
10 28th of May, at 9.30 in the morning, if I'm not mistaken, in this same
11 courtroom III. We stand adjourned.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day
14 of May, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.