Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11598

 1                           Tuesday, 28 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  The Chamber was

10     informed, Mr. Lukic, that the Defence wanted to raise a matter.  Not

11     necessarily in private session.  I leave it to you.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I don't think that we need

13     to go to private session.  Good morning, Your Honours.

14             You have issued an order scheduling an administrative hearing on

15     June the 3rd, 2013, to further discuss the Defence motion for a reduction

16     in the number of sitting trial days per week given the health conditions

17     of our client.  Your Honours have invited the medical officer from the

18     UNDU to answer questions from Chambers and the parties.  Respectfully,

19     for this to be a fair and complete inquest into the health of our clients

20     and to fairly determine the appropriate number of days per week that our

21     client's health permits him to sit, the Defence experts who examined him

22     and rendered their expert opinion should also be present to not only

23     answer questions but pose questions to the UNDU medical officer.  In this

24     way, the proceedings will be meaningful and will fully and fairly address

25     the issue.  Providing the Chamber with the necessary information and

Page 11599

 1     creating a transparent and full record of the opinions of the medical

 2     professionals best placed to advise the Chamber on the actual health of

 3     the accused and what that means for his ability to follow and participate

 4     in the proceedings in a safe manner.  Thus, we would ask that the Chamber

 5     extend an invitation to the Defence experts, Dr. Kovacevic and

 6     Dr. Dimitrijevic such that we can then ask for the Registry to fund their

 7     travel and participation in this hearing.

 8             Additionally, we take note that the reduced sitting days that the

 9     Chamber has ordered expire with the conclusion of the present week.

10     Given the grave concerns that we have as to the health of Mr. Mladic and

11     his ability to endure a five-day schedule, which has been recommended

12     against by both the Defence experts and UNDU medical staff, we would

13     request that a tentative and provisional schedule with the reduction to

14     four days of trial a week be put in place until the Chamber renders its

15     final decision.  This would preserve the health of our client and address

16     the concerns of the doctors and would thus be a safe, preventive measure

17     that is reasonable under the circumstances.

18             We thank you for your time and consideration.  Thank you, Your

19     Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  We will certainly consider

21     this matter and -- but I -- but of course not after we have heard whether

22     the Prosecution has any observations in respect of either the substance

23     or the procedural aspect which was raised primarily by Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.  First I would correct -- I

25     believe the -- to correct Mr. Lukic, I believe the hearing has been

Page 11600

 1     scheduled for the 4th of June and not the 3rd of June.  Secondly, the

 2     Prosecution has no objection to the Chamber hearing from whatever expert

 3     or whatever source of information it deems necessary to make the best

 4     decision on the application.  I would ask the Chamber and Mr. Lukic to

 5     consider, given the significant expense of flying these people -- these

 6     doctors to The Hague, whether or not it would be suitable to have them

 7     participate via videolink from the Belgrade field office.  It might be

 8     more convenient for them, easier to schedule, and obviously far less

 9     expensive to the Tribunal.

10             With respect to the June schedule, again, the Prosecution takes

11     no position on the Chamber's scheduling of court hearings but I do note,

12     as did I in the last witness schedule that was provided at the end of

13     last week, that based upon the Chamber's instruction, I believe on the

14     16th of May, that we would be sitting five days a week, the Prosecution

15     has scheduled witnesses for June.  Of course, if it's medically necessary

16     that we do not sit five days, the Prosecution will do whatever is

17     necessary to reorder the schedule, but as noted in that notification, one

18     witness is being coordinated with an appearance of the same witness in

19     another Chamber -- in another Chamber and there are other certain

20     complications that went into formulating the schedule for June, so the

21     Prosecution would simply ask the Chamber to have all of that in mind and

22     strike the best balance.  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.  We will further consider

24     this matter and will let you know as soon as possible.

25             Before we start with the first witness, I would like to briefly

Page 11601

 1     move into private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

Page 11602

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             Mr. Lukic, the estimate was another 30 minutes for the

 3     cross-examination of Mr. Ruez.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Probably less.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Probably less.  We'll see.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7                           WITNESS:  JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Bonjour, Mr. Ruez.  [French spoken - no

 9     interpretation].

10             [In English] I see that there is no translation.  I'll try to say

11     the same now in English.  That is we welcome you again, you're still

12     bound by your solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

13     testimony.  And did I say anything else?  No, I don't think I did.

14             Mr. Lukic will now continue his cross-examination.  Mr. Lukic,

15     you may proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                      Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:  [Continued]

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ruez.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   This will probably be the last day of your odyssey called the

21     Tribunal.  I doubt there will be another opportunity for you to testify,

22     and I will not bother you too much this morning.  I have only a few

23     questions left.

24        A.   I stay at your disposal.

25        Q.   I wanted to ask you something about the AID of which you are --

Page 11603

 1     you are familiar with it, aren't you?  It is the agency for research and

 2     documentation, correct?

 3        A.   I think the name was Agency for Investigation and Documentation,

 4     but I might be wrong.  Anyhow we speak about the same --

 5        Q.   [In English] Yes.  [Interpretation] What was your understanding?

 6     Was it the agency of a single people in Bosnia-Herzegovina or was it the

 7     agency of all three peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   I don't know -- I don't know really.  I don't know if it existed

 9     before the war or if it was a creation during the war, but the only

10     contacts I had with AID was AID in Tuzla.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D858 in

12     e-court?

13        Q.   It is your testimony dated the 15th of September, 2006, in the

14     Popovic case.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 54 in e-court which

16     should correspond to page 1732 of the transcript.

17        Q.   In lines 13 through 20, you were asked, I'll read it out in

18     English.

19             "[In English] Q.  Now, you mentioned earlier that AID is a form

20     of secret service, correct?

21             "A.  It's the so-called.

22             "Q.  For who, though?

23             "A.  For the people in Bosnia, that's how I name this service.

24             "Q.  The Bosnian Serbs, the Bosnian Croats, or the Bosnian

25     Muslims?

Page 11604

 1             "A.  I would think for everyone."

 2             [Interpretation] My question is:  Did the AID representatives

 3     introduce themselves as representatives of all three peoples or was it

 4     your conclusion or did someone tell you that?

 5        A.   It's a good example that memory is fading but, again, the only

 6     contacts I had with AID was in Tuzla so for Bosnia.

 7        Q.   [In English] For Bosniaks or --

 8        A.   Bosniaks.  Well, I mean -- yeah, for Bosniaks.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I just want to understand.  Mr. Witness,

11     what do you mean by Bosniaks?

12             THE WITNESS:  I mean not for the Croats or the Serbs.  I don't

13     know if there was any AID in Banja Luka or in Pale.  I had no contact

14     with them, nor in Zagreb.  The only AID people I did meet during the time

15     of investigation was AID Tuzla.

16             MR. LUKIC:  May I proceed, Your Honour?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] In the course of your work, did you come across

20     a piece of information that the Muslim authorities in Sarajevo, as early

21     as the 11th of July, 1995, informed of a genocide having been committed

22     in Srebrenica?

23        A.   No, but, again, you know, as I said at the very beginning, the

24     preliminary stage of the investigation was to check a rumour, a press

25     rumour, about this.  So if as soon as July 1995 authorities in Sarajevo

Page 11605

 1     named the events of Srebrenica a genocide as part of the war propaganda,

 2     I would think, as we know, before this name could be used we had to wait

 3     until the end of the trial of General Krstic.

 4        Q.   In the course of your work, be it through witness conversations

 5     or in documents, did you find any kind of trace or indication of the

 6     involvement of Muslim authorities in the killing of their own population

 7     in July 1995 in Srebrenica?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   In the course of your work, did you come across any evidence or

10     trace of murders committed by members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

11     during the movement of the column?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did you ever speak to Hakija Meholjic?  He was the chief of

14     police in Srebrenica, correct?  Actually, are you aware that

15     Hakija Meholjic was the chief of police in Srebrenica during the time of

16     war?

17        A.   No.  And no, the name doesn't sound familiar to me at all, and I

18     don't think I interviewed this man, since the investigation I was in

19     charge of was on events following the 11 of July and not before, so

20     I never investigated what might have happened inside Srebrenica, between

21     1992 and 1995.

22        Q.   My question was whether you talked to him, but obviously the name

23     doesn't ring a bell.  I wanted to know whether you discussed with him the

24     murders during the movement of the column.

25        A.   No, I didn't.

Page 11606

 1        Q.   Okay.  Did you ask from the French authorities to provide any

 2     kind of information as regards the events after the fall of Srebrenica?

 3        A.   No, I didn't.

 4        Q.   At the time, the head of the UNPROFOR protection forces was the

 5     French General Janvier, correct?

 6        A.   Yes, correct.

 7        Q.   Did you talk to him?

 8        A.   No, I didn't.

 9        Q.   Did you know that at the time, there were French troops in the

10     area close to the area of the Zvornik Brigade?

11        A.   No, I didn't know that there were any French troops in the

12     Republika Srpska at the time of the events, and I don't believe there

13     were any.

14        Q.   Did you know that some elements of the UNPROFOR intelligence

15     service went to Zvornik?

16        A.   Indeed, yes, that's another thing.  You were talking about

17     troops, sorry, misunderstanding.

18        Q.   [In English] Probably my question was wrongly posed.

19        A.   No, now I -- indeed now I remember.  Yes, the answer is yes.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you investigate news rumours to the effect

21     that foreign services were partially involved in the killings of

22     Srebrenica Muslims at the time?

23        A.   No, because when rumours get so close to fantasy, I didn't have

24     time to lose on this topic.

25        Q.   As for the people who came to exhume the bodies, did you provide

Page 11607

 1     them with instructions in terms of what were -- what their duties were,

 2     and what the purpose of the mission was?  In other words, what it was

 3     that they were expected to do?

 4        A.   No.  All the technical aspects of their work was determined by

 5     the chief of exhumations.  So in 1996, Professor Haglund, and later on,

 6     Professor Wright.  I never gave any instructions to these people in a

 7     scientific field I do not master.  The reality is also that at the very

 8     beginning, the expectation was to be able to identify by name, at least,

 9     one or two persons in the grave, make sure that at least indications were

10     found to determine from where they were coming from, but later, the

11     science enabled to go far above this little objective, since when DNA was

12     used for these purposes.

13        Q.   Mr. Ruez, thank you very much for answering my questions.  These

14     are all the questions that we had for you, and our apologies for bringing

15     you back for just this brief questioning, and thank you very much again

16     for complying with our request.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the questions in cross-examination triggered

20     any need for further examination, Mr. McCloskey?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, briefly on one area.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23                           Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

24        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Ruez.

25        A.   Good morning, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 11608

 1        Q.   You're not quite off the hook yet but soon.

 2             On the 26th of April this year, at page 10463, Mr. Lukic asked

 3     you if you ruled out the possibility that the mass graves contained

 4     battle casualties.  And you answered that on line 16, and you said:

 5             "I rule it out for three reasons.  The geographic region of the

 6     graves we exposed, the dates in connection with the records of the

 7     Engineer Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade, and because of all these

 8     forensic elements."

 9             Just -- and very briefly, without going into any detailed

10     explanations, what were you referring to when you said, "the geographic

11     regions of the graves we exposed"?

12        A.   Simply by looking at a map, most of them are quite at a distance

13     of any -- of a confrontation line, so it would make absolutely no sense

14     to transport battle casualties for -- on such a long distance.  The logic

15     would be that battle casualties would be more or less buried on the spot

16     or nearby the location they have been collected.

17        Q.   All right.  And we've got maps so I think we'll stop there.

18             And you've already referred to the forensic elements, Dr. Wright

19     and folks, so I won't ask about that.  But this second point, connection

20     with the records of the Engineering Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade.

21     Did your investigation retrieve original records of the Zvornik Brigade

22     Engineering Battalion?

23        A.   Yes.  There were two simultaneous searches conducted on the

24     Bratunac Brigade and on the Zvornik Brigade.  I was present on the search

25     at the Bratunac Brigade, but others did the same thing at the same moment

Page 11609

 1     at the Zvornik Brigade, where these engineer records were found and

 2     confiscated.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let's go to Exhibit 65 ter 04279, and we'll test your

 4     memory some more.  And let's look at this document on the right, it says,

 5     "Military post Zvornik, vehicle work log."  We see it's for July 1995.

 6     And we see that it's for a vehicle called a "rovokopac" which is

 7     translated as "backhoe excavator."  And we see that the name of the

 8     driver user we see a Ristanovic and a Mitrovic.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to the next page in both documents?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it's only a one-page document.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can guarantee, after many years of this, that

12     there is another page.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the question is not whether there is another

14     page but whether it's in e-court, Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ms. Stewart just informed me of that at the same

16     time you did, Your Honour.  And I apologise about that.  I'm not sure why

17     a complete document didn't get in but it will -- I'm -- hopefully we will

18     be able to see that soon.

19        Q.   And now to test your memory, Mr. Ruez, do you recall that -- did

20     the -- these documents note the locations where the machines were

21     working?

22        A.   Yes, they did.

23        Q.   All right.  And is this one of the engineering records you were

24     referring to?

25        A.   Yes, for sure, 14 July, most certainly is Orahovac.

Page 11610

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I do have the document which we could put on

 3     the ELMO, Mr. President, if -- I apologise for that.

 4             Okay.  Thank you.  If we could move this over a little bit more

 5     to the right so we can see the date, there we go.  We see that this

 6     excavator is noted at 14 July, the base Orahovac and return, trench

 7     digging, and can we kick it over to the left now so we can see how many

 8     hours, six, six hours.

 9        Q.   And so, yes, your memory was good.  This is Orahovac.  So is this

10     one of the things you used when you mentioned engineering records?

11        A.   Yes, absolutely.

12        Q.   All right.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go back to the front page and

14     briefly go into private session.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 11611

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could now go to Exhibit 65 ter 5240.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   And again we are going to go back into your memory.  Do you

15     remember a man named Mevludin Oric?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   And if we could get this -- it's just one drawing.  And we see

18     his name up in the left-hand corner.  Does this drawing ring any bells to

19     you?  Do you recall Mevludin Oric making a drawing?

20        A.   I saw the drawing, but I was not the one who interviewed

21     Mevludin.  I think Mevludin Oric was interviewed by Sue Castro.

22        Q.   All right.  And do you recall what these were supposed to depict?

23        A.   Yes.  They depicted heavy equipment that he saw on the execution

24     site, and if I remember well, execution took also place in the evening at

25     the light of these machines, and the, in bracket, trench was already dug

Page 11612

 1     at the same time the execution was ongoing.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I would offer this exhibit into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 5240 receives number P1487,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would recall our attention to some -- one

 8     of the machines on the right is called a ULT.  And it's spelled out just

 9     for our memory.

10             And so could we now go to another document, 65 ter 04281.

11        Q.   Here we see another one of these vehicle work logs, and this time

12     it's for a ULT 220.  I see it's translated as "backhoe excavator."  It

13     should not be "backhoe."  I apologise.  That's not a proper translation.

14             Is this another one of the documents you referred to in answering

15     Mr. Lukic's question?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, of course I believe that you are a

18     master of all the translations but if you have any doubt as to the

19     translation of this document, provide for a better one.  That would be my

20     simple --

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, it's something I just noticed.  I've --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  But let's not leave it to making such an

23     observation but have the document -- have the translation replaced by

24     another one.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I understand.  I think the Defence will agree

Page 11613

 1     that "excavator" or "loader" is a better translation for an ULT.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether you agree or not, we are working on the

 3     basis of official translations, so if there is any doubt, it should be

 4     submitted for the translation to be verified.  That's the simple

 5     observation I make.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We will get you a

 7     better translation.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And do we have the next page in e-court?  No?

10     Okay, if we could do this again --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Same basis.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

13        Q.   And now we can see this, this ULT digging trenches at Orahovac on

14     the 15th of July and digging trenches in Branjevo on the 17th of July.

15     Do you connect this in any way to the investigation and the crimes at

16     Branjevo and Orahovac?

17        A.   Yes, absolutely.  It makes sense that since the execution at

18     Orahovac ended during the night, the work of burying the victims might

19     have continued the following day, and for the Branjevo Farm execution

20     took place the 16th, since we know that the bodies also of the Pilica Dom

21     were taken to the farm on 17, and we also have aerial imagery showing

22     ongoing exhumation on the spot, the 17th, that all these events and

23     documents are connected all together.

24        Q.   All right.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I'll offer this in when we get this fixed,

Page 11614

 1     Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  A number will be reserved for it.  Madam Registrar?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  We have one technical problem.  I didn't complain the

 6     first time with the first document shown on the ELMO, but we cannot see

 7     anything from the ELMO so I cannot see that.  What's going on?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, have you pushed the right button?  That is the

 9     ELMO --

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I pushed all the buttons.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  All the buttons, yes.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Not at the same time.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, a very practical solution perhaps, since

14     we admit not yet, you certainly will have an opportunity to look at a

15     hard copy during the break and then we will further hear from the

16     Prosecution.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number to be reserved for this

19     document would be?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Number reserved for document 4281 will be P1488,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and we'll decide on admission after the full

23     document has been uploaded and after Mr. Lukic has had an opportunity to

24     look at it.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 11615

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             All right.  Now could we go to 65 ter 5230?  Remembering we saw a

 4     document with a ULT and we saw Mevludin Oric noting ULT.

 5        Q.   Now, do you remember or do you know the difference between a

 6     ULT 220 and a ULT 200?

 7        A.   It's a tricky question.  If I remember well, the 200 is only a

 8     front loader, but the other one has also a digging device at the back, if

 9     I remember well.

10        Q.   All right.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm not sure that's correct but I would offer

12     this into evidence as a representative of an ULT.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I apologise, Mr. McCloskey.  Any objections?

14     Madam Registrar?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 5230 receives number P1489,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P1489 is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  One more engineering document.  Could

19     we go to 65 ter 04277?  And in e-court it should be page 17 in the

20     English and page 137 in the Serbian.

21        Q.   Now, this is something we referred to as the engineer logbook

22     which as we can see is the company commander's order, and I picked it out

23     just for the 17th of July.  Is this a document you recall as one of the

24     engineering documents in question that you used to help date the creation

25     of the graves?

Page 11616

 1        A.   Yes, indeed.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I won't go to the other dates, but I would

 4     like to offer this document into evidence, but I would just offer

 5     pages 14 through 20 in the English, which should be the appropriate dates

 6     from 13th through, I think, about the 20th of July.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, the first question then would be:  Is

 8     that how it was uploaded?  I think it is not because I've got 72 pages

 9     uploaded into e-court.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Ms. Stewart is going to upload that smaller

11     version.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Same procedure, then.  We reserve a number for this

13     document and a selection still to be made.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  The reserve number for document 4277 will be

15     P1490, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, if there is any other pages which

17     you would like to have added, then of course you can make any

18     suggestions.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we get an A to that, Ms. Stewart suggests?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  For the selection to be made later?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The excerpts will be 65 ter 4277A.  And before we

22     leave it, I would note that we see something called a BGH-700 at

23     Branjevo.  Now let's go to another exhibit, 65 ter 5227.

24        Q.   And again, Mr. Ruez, going back to your knowledge, does this

25     represent something similar to the BGH-700, as far as you remember, from

Page 11617

 1     those days?

 2        A.   Yes.  In fact, as for the other one, it's just a question of

 3     size, the numbers.

 4        Q.   In terms of the ULT?

 5        A.   Yes, for the ULT, one is smaller and the other one is bigger.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Then I would offer this into evidence as well.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 5227 receives number P1491,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And one last document, Mr. President.

12        Q.   And something you've just referred to, Mr. Ruez.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to Exhibit P1132?  It should be in

14     e-court, page 219.  This is a -- it's a book of aerial images that has

15     been MFI'd.  Actually, I'm wrong on that point but this is -- this is

16     fine.

17        Q.   You've referred to this briefly before, Mr. Ruez.  This is

18     17 July aerial image, and is this what you were referring to when you

19     said there was a photo on 17 July of an excavator digging?

20        A.   Yes, absolutely.

21        Q.   All right.  And this is already noted.

22        A.   On this picture he's digging right on the spot where the mass

23     grave is.

24        Q.   And you know that how?

25        A.   Because I've been on the ground many times and I can for sure say

Page 11618

 1     it is the very precise spot where the mass grave is ending at the limit

 2     of the tree line.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             Now, you also briefly mentioned with Mr. Lukic that there was

 5     combat on the 16th, where the VRS opened a corridor to allow Muslims from

 6     Srebrenica to get through.  Did the investigation reveal that even after

 7     those Muslims went through, there were any other Muslims with arms that

 8     got stuck behind in those woods, in the Zvornik Brigade's zone of

 9     responsibility?

10        A.   It could be.  I don't remember.

11        Q.   All right.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have no further questions, Mr. President.  And

13     they've fixed the problem, so we have 04279 should be P1486 and 04281

14     should be P1488.  And so they are fixed in e-court and they're complete

15     now.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It was completing the two documents, no objections,

17     any further, Mr. Lukic?  Well, you haven't had an opportunity to look at

18     it.  We will deal with it after the break, after Mr. Lukic has had an

19     opportunity to look at the full documents.  And I take it that then we'll

20     also be able to know whether the selection has been uploaded for the

21     document, the log.

22             Then if you have no further questions, no further questions from

23     the Bench and no questions by the Defence anymore, Mr. Ruez, [French

24     spoken - no interpretation].

25             [In English] Again, there seems to be no translation.  I would

Page 11619

 1     like to thank you very much in your own language for having come to

 2     The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to you

 3     by the parties and by the Bench, and I would wish you a safe return home.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break, and after we resume, we'll

 8     hear the evidence of the next witness in closed session and with

 9     pseudonym.  We'll resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

11                           [Closed session]

12   (redacted)

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14                           [Private session]

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 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             Some documents in relation to Mr. Ruez.  First, P1486, Mr. Lukic,

10     second page has now been uploaded.  Any problem?

11             MR. LUKIC:  I have to admit that I didn't have time to see the

12     document yet.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the same may be true for P1488?

14             MR. LUKIC:  Same.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you -- of course, we would have expected

16     to you look if even at the hard copy, if you would admit and you could

17     revisit the matter if there are serious objections?  Would that be --

18             MR. LUKIC:  I can check it in the e-court now.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You can check it in e-court now, at this very

20     moment.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Or maybe --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, we are beyond 2.15 so I can't afford to --

23             MR. LUKIC:  I can answer that question tomorrow morning, at the

24     beginning.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll leave them until tomorrow morning.

Page 11684

 1             Finally we have P1490.  There the required pages have been

 2     uploaded into e-court and that was a reduction rather than any additional

 3     pages.  Any problem there, Mr. Lukic?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  No problem with that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P1490 is admitted into evidence.  We adjourn for the

 6     day and we resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the 29th of May at 9.30 in this

 7     same courtroom, III.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th of May

10                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.