130612ED

Page 12552

1 you were from Srebrenica and none from Kamenica."

2 I want to ask you was this individual -- or, did he appear to be

3 irate or angry when he uttered those words?

4 A. Well, yes. It was not that long. It was night. He wasn't in a

5 usual normal mood.

6 Q. And did his reaction indicate or give the impression that he did

7 not believe that none of you were from Kamenica?

8 A. I don't know. All I know is that he asked me that. I don't know

9 if he asked the others or not, perhaps that's how it seemed. Kamenica is

10 a completely different area around Zvornik, so I can't really say

11 anything about that. It's 100 kilometres from where we were.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the point you apparently want to make is

13 clear to the Chamber.

14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

15 Q. Now, I would like to move to another part of your testimony. In

16 relation to the wounded cousin - I will not repeat the name - that you

17 helped carry when you surrendered, if you could tell us how bad were the

18 injuries at the time that you left him with the soldiers, as you

19 testified yesterday?

20 A. I -- well, excuse me. I cannot tell how seriously wounded he

21 was. He was wounded in the head and in the leg. He couldn't move by

22 himself.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to move to your testimony of the

24 executions and the bodies at the plateau by the dam. In your 92 ter

25 statement you estimate 1500 to 2.000 bodies that you saw there, although

Page 12553

1 the Prosecution said 1.000 in their summary. I would like to know if

2 your estimate is based on a guess relating to the number of people you

3 believe were at the school in total rather than what you physically saw

4 at the dam.

5 A. Correct. I made the estimate on the basis of the information

6 based on what I saw in the field, and so I estimated out of how many

7 would be at the school. From six classrooms, and I'm quite sure that

8 there were at least six classrooms, perhaps more, there were at least 200

9 in each so it would be 1200 people. I don't know if there were any more

10 in some other room or hall, but the number is definitely more than 1.500.

11 Q. I must say, sir, now I'm confused by your answer. You say that

12 you estimated based upon -- well --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think it's easier -- I think

14 I understand what your problem may be. Is what you saw at the dam, was

15 that consistent with the calculations you made as to how many people you

16 would expect to be there?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct. It was in keeping

18 with my estimates, what we could see every day. That plateau was the

19 size of a football pitch, let's say, and you could fit at least 1500

20 people there, and that plateau was full of bodies, dead bodies, of the

21 killed.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

23 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to look at something, and again it should

24 not be broadcast, 1D1036, and we'll need page 61 of the same which should

25 correlate to transcript page 3.000 of the Krstic trial record. And we

Page 12554

1 will be looking at line 19 and onwards.

2 Q. At that time, sir, you were asked the question from Judge Riad

3 which I will now read to you along with your answer to see if we can get

4 a better understanding of your testimony on this:

5 "Judge Riad: Now, when you were asked how many people had been

6 lying in the killing field, you said there would be between -- there

7 would be between 1500 and 2.000. Was there enough light for you at your

8 escape to see the extent of the lying bodies or was it too dark? I mean,

9 on what did you base your estimation?

10 "A. I could make an estimate on the bases of the number of

11 people who had been in the school. There were three classrooms on that

12 floor so there must have been up to 600 people there. So I believe the

13 same number of people would have been on the ground floor, and I believe

14 that there were other classrooms as well. As to the area itself, I was

15 able to observe it on the next morning when we came out of the ditch, and

16 also when we reached the village, because we were about 150 or 200 metres

17 away from that spot, so I could see the whole area, and the whole area,

18 the whole location, was filled with dead bodies."

19 First of all, sir, do you stand by this selection of your prior

20 testimony from the Krstic case as being both truthful and accurate as to

21 this event such that you would so testify again today subject to the

22 solemn declaration?

23 A. Yes. It is correct, and I would always testify as such.

24 Q. And from this, sir, is it accurate that your only fixed guess was

25 that there were 600 people in the three classrooms on your floor, and you

Page 12555

1 basically were assuming that there were the same number of people on the

2 ground floor but you don't have any independent verification of those

3 figures?

4 A. This is not any kind of estimate. I fully stand behind that.

5 The school was full. I can guarantee that all the six classrooms were

6 full and held at least 200 people each. Are you thinking that this is a

7 lie? Are you trying to draw me out in that way?

8 Q. No, sir. I'm trying to understand your sworn testimony under

9 oath. And I'd ask you now again: Where you say in your -- in this sworn

10 testimony that you say, "... I believe the same number of people would

11 have been on the ground floor, and I believe there are other classrooms

12 as well," can you tell me, can you confirm for me, that there were other

13 classrooms? How many classrooms were there?

14 A. I said a number of times, as I was running up those stairs

15 I could see three classrooms on the ground floor as well. The doors were

16 open. They were full. And the same thing was on the first floor. There

17 were three more classrooms, and I assert this with 100 per cent

18 certainty. I cannot say anything other than this on this matter. There

19 were at least 200 people in my classroom, and they were at least 200

20 probably in all the other classrooms.

21 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, from the time period of the declaration of

22 Srebrenica as a demilitarised zone and the events in July of 1995, can

23 you tell me, if you know, sir, how many ethnic Serbs that you know of

24 remained living in -- within the enclave, that is within the Army of BiH

25 controlled territory in Srebrenica enclave?

Page 12556

1 A. I don't know. I didn't really keep any data on that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give a guess? Were there many, were there

3 very little Serbs remaining? Once Srebrenica was declared a

4 demilitarised zone and the events in July, were there many? Were there

5 almost none? Could you give us an indication?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there were not many in

7 the town. There were never any Serbs in my local community anyway, so I

8 cannot really speak of any data.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic. By the way the Chamber

10 believed or assumed on the basis of what you said yesterday that you

11 would finish in 20 minutes.

12 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, and I have intended to do that and

13 I have a few more questions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Twenty minutes since the beginning? I think we are

15 now at approximately 35, I don't know exactly but please proceed and try

16 to finish before the break.

17 MR. IVETIC:

18 Q. The villages we mentioned earlier of Osmace, Glogova and

19 Kamenica, how far are these villages located from Srebrenica town itself?

20 A. Approximately 30 kilometres.

21 Q. Thank you, sir. I thank you for answered my questions. I have

22 no further questions for you at this time.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

24 Mr. Traldi, any need to re-examine the witness?

25 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour, briefly. I should be done by the

Page 12565

1 used in subsequent proceedings, apart from if you would not tell the

2 truth, then of course it could be used for proceedings for false

3 testimony.

4 I would like to inform you about this legal provision. I think

5 in earlier testimony, you have told the Court then that you understood

6 it. Do you understand it still?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I do.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Vanderpuye will now examine you. You'll

9 find Mr. Vanderpuye to your right.

10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, and good morning again,

11 Mr. President, Your Honours.

12 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

13 Q. And good morning to you, Witness. Before we get started I just

14 wanted to remind you, since it's been a bit of time since you testified

15 last, just to try to keep your voice up and speak a little bit more

16 slowly than you would normally so that the interpreters have a chance to

17 translate everything that you say and I say so that everyone can

18 understand your evidence.

19 So let's get started. Do you recall testifying in the case of

20 Prosecutor versus Tolimir on the 8th and 9th of June, 2011?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And was the testimony that you provided in those proceedings

23 truthful?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review the entirety of that

Page 12566

1 testimony before coming to court here today?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in reviewing the testimony, did you listen to it in an audio

4 recording?

5 A. I only heard the recording or listened to the recording of the

6 testimony. I didn't have an opportunity to review it in the form of a

7 transcript.

8 Q. Having listened to your testimony, can you confirm, does it

9 fairly and accurately reflect what you said at the time in those

10 proceedings and what you would say here if you were examined and asked

11 the same questions?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President I would offer at this time the

14 witness's previous testimony that's tendered pursuant to our application

15 under Rule 92 ter together with the associated exhibits.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, usually first -- the first questions

17 are usually to establish who is before us, who the witness is. So before

18 he confirms his previous testimony, we would like to know who he is.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'll happily do that, and I apologise,

20 Mr. President.

21 Q. Could you please state your name for the record, Witness?

22 A. Zoran Malinic.

23 Q. Thank you, sir.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against admission of the previous

25 testimony, the transcript of previous testimony in the Tolimir case?

Page 12567

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

3 THE REGISTRAR: May I have 65 ter number, please? Is it 28979?

4 Therefore document 28979 receives number P1555, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: P1555 is admitted into evidence.

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I have also a number of

7 associated exhibits that I would like to tender at this time, or if you

8 prefer I can do that later as well.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you first examine the witness, then we'll

10 see what we will see in passing and see what remains as associated

11 exhibits to be tendered.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I have a summary

13 I would like to read into the record. It should be relatively brief.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: In July 1995 Major Zoran Malinic was the

16 commander of the military police battalion of the

17 65th Motorised Protection Regiment, an independent unit of the VRS Main

18 Staff. The regiment was commanded by Colonel Milomir Savcic, who

19 reported to the commander of the Main Staff and General Mladic. Malinic

20 in turn reported to Colonel Savcic and the regiment's Chief of Staff in

21 July 1995 was Colonel Jovo Jazic.

22 On 13 July 1995, as Bosnian Serb forces blocked the path of the

23 column of Muslims fleeing Srebrenica through the woods, the regiment

24 began to receive -- that is the military police battalion of the regiment

25 began to receive large numbers of prisoners. In the early morning of

Page 12568

1 13 July, Major Malinic received information that a large group of -- or

2 large groups of Muslims had been crossing the stretch of road between

3 Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje. He dispatched men to look into the

4 situation and they soon returned with about three Muslim prisoners and

5 reported that a much larger group was in the area.

6 These first prisoners were detained at the

7 military police battalion's barracks located in a school in Nova Kasaba.

8 Later, the situation grew more intense as hundreds of Bosnian Muslim men

9 began surrendering or were captured trying to cross the road.

10 Major Malinic called the Main Staff at Crna Rijeka, he spoke to his

11 superiors requesting reinforcement. Units of the

12 67th Communications Regiment and a part of the MP Battalion's APC unit

13 were dispatched by Colonel Jazic.

14 The growing numbers of prisoners were detained at the Nova Kasaba

15 football pitch located some 300 metres away from the MP Battalion

16 barracks, and they were guarded by its members. According to

17 Major Malinic, the number of prisoners reached as many as 1200. During

18 their detention at the football pitch, one prisoner was killed. Malinic

19 said he heard about the incident and that it was in self-defence, that is

20 the result of a prisoner attacking a soldier.

21 Major Malinic arrived at the football pitch for the first time

22 that day after he was notified of General Mladic's arrival. Mladic

23 addressed the prisoners. Although members of the MP Battalion had been

24 instructed to list the prisoners, the process was interrupted when Mladic

25 arrived. Although Colonel Keserovic, Dragomir Keserovic stated that

Page 12569

1 Malinic later told him that Mladic said that there was no need to make

2 lists because the prisoners would be going home, Malinic stated that he

3 could not recall what he had said during this conversation. Late that

4 afternoon, the prisoners were loaded onto trucks and buses and

5 transported to Bratunac. Major Malinic had no further contact with them.

6 During the course of 13 July, Major Malinic also received

7 Lieutenant Egbers and a small group of DutchBat soldiers after they had

8 been stopped at gunpoint and their equipment taken by Serb soldiers, when

9 returning to Potocari from monitoring the convoy of civilians transferred

10 to Kladanj.

11 A complaint about the incident was made, which Major Malinic

12 reported to Colonel Jazic. Malinic believes it "highly probable" that

13 Beara came - that is Colonel Beara - came to the barracks in response.

14 According to Malinic, DutchBat soldiers remained at the regiment's -- or,

15 rather, the military police battalion's barracks for their own safety for

16 two or three days before being allowed to return to their command in

17 Potocari. Their vehicles were not released. To his recollection, on or

18 about 16 or 17 July, Major Malinic's units engaged in an operation

19 involving a sweep of the terrain which also involved units of the

20 Bratunac Brigade. Colonel Keserovic was responsible for co-ordinating

21 this operation. Malinic stated that he received no information about the

22 capture of prisoners during the sweep and that he was unaware of any mass

23 graves subsequently found in the immediate area of Nova Kasaba.

24 That concludes my summary, Mr. President. I have a --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, if you allow me one short comment on

Page 12570

1 your summary, you said although Keserovic stated this and this and this,

2 the witness -- the appropriate way of summarising the testimony of this

3 witness, as I saw it in the -- is to say that the witness has no

4 recollection of Keserovic telling him A, B and C. What another witness

5 stated is not part of the summary of this witness. That is already

6 starting a bit of a debate which is not appropriately done when

7 summarising the witness statement.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Just to be clear, Mr. President, the witness

9 doesn't deny that the conversation occurred. He just doesn't recall what

10 he said during the conversation. So it's not debatable whether Keserovic

11 said it.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I wasn't seeking any further comments. I told you

13 what would have been the appropriate way of summarising the testimony of

14 this witness.

15 I'll tell you at a later stage how you could have introduced that

16 still in the appropriate way.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: I appreciate that, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: For the time being, please proceed.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE:

20 Q. Let me just ask you -- begin by asking you a couple of questions

21 about your background. Since you last testified before the Tribunal in

22 2011, can you tell us what you've been doing now? I don't want to you

23 describe specifically where you work but just the type of work that

24 you're engaged in would be helpful.

25 A. Nothing has changed compared to the last time. It's just that

Page 12571

1 the intensity of the specific work I do is less. I am a retired military

2 serviceman otherwise.

3 Q. And what rank did you retire with?

4 A. As a lieutenant-colonel.

5 Q. Would you prefer that I address you as lieutenant-colonel during

6 the course of your examination today?

7 A. Since I'm retired, I should properly be addressed as

8 lieutenant-colonel in retirement, but of course, you can just address me

9 by my name.

10 Q. Very well. And just before I jump ahead to 1995, I want to ask

11 you just a few questions about your prior assignment as a deputy

12 commander of the 5th Army Sabotage Detachment in 1992, and that's

13 referred to in your transcript of evidence at page 15299. First, can you

14 tell us to what unitary level you were assigned in this sabotage

15 detachment?

16 A. If February or March of 1992, I was appointed to the post of

17 deputy commander of the sabotage detachment of the 5th Army.

18 Q. It was a unit of the command of the 5th Army?

19 A. It was a unit which was part of the 65th Protection Regiment of

20 the 2nd Army -- or, actually, of the 5th Army. With the withdrawal or

21 the transfer of the unit from Zagreb to Sarajevo, that same unit

22 continued to operate but this time within the army structure that moved

23 to Sarajevo.

24 Q. And within the structure of the sabotage detachment of which you

25 were deputy commander, was it governed by rules that pre-existed, for

Page 12572

1 example, in the JNA?

2 A. In February 1992, it was the Yugoslav People's Army. At the time

3 the unit was listed as part of the JNA. It was February or March 1992.

4 Q. To whom was your unit immediately subordinate?

5 A. The unit was subordinated to the commander of the

6 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.

7 Q. And did the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment maintain a

8 sabotage unit through and into 1995?

9 A. With the departure of the officers who were born in Serbia in May

10 1992, the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was no longer part of the

11 Yugoslav People's Army. Rather, it stayed behind within the VRS which

12 was set up. The sabotage detachment continued to be active. It was on

13 the 2nd May of 1992 that many officers were killed at Skenderija,

14 actually it was five officers and ten soldiers. Most of them hailed from

15 Serbia. As the officers and soldiers left Bosnia in May 1992, the

16 detachment had me, as commanding officer, and a dozen soldiers. The

17 detachment ceased to exist and it was only in December 1992 that the

18 formation of the sabotage detachment of the

19 65th Motorised Protection Regiment began.

20 Q. Okay. In your position as an officer with the sabotage

21 detachment, as you indicated in 1992, were you aware of the rules or

22 instructions governing land-based diversionary operations, that is

23 sabotage operations?

24 A. The sabotage detachment, which wasn't part of the

25 65th Motorised Protection Regiment but of the 5th Army, I was a member of

Page 12573

1 it between 1984 and 1987 as platoon commander. Then I took up a

2 different duty. The sabotage detachment of the 5th Army which was

3 immediately subordinated to the 5th Army command joined the

4 65th Motorised Protection Regiment as soon as it was established which

5 was, I believe, in 1988. It therefore came under the regiment. I was

6 quite knowledgeable when it came to the execution of diversionary or

7 sabotage actions and the assignments that are normally carried out by a

8 sabotage detachment.

9 Q. Okay. Thank you. But my question is were you aware of the rules

10 or instructions governing land-based diversionary operations in 1992? I

11 know you say you're knowledgeable about that but I just want to know if

12 you were aware of the rules which applied, first, and then I'll ask my

13 second question after.

14 A. You're referring to rules. All the rules that were in force in

15 the Yugoslav People's Army were adopted by the Army of Republika Srpska,

16 if we are discussing the period between May 1992 and the later period.

17 Now, yes, I was familiar with the regulations in force.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Having been a ranking officer in this sabotage

19 unit, as you've described it, can you tell us were the actions of that

20 unit carried out against civilians or civilian objects, to your

21 knowledge?

22 A. If we are discussing 1992, no.

23 Q. Is that something that is permissible under the rules which

24 applied, that you've referred to, that were adopted by the VRS and

25 applied throughout the war?

Page 12574

1 A. Against civilians and the civilian population, no.

2 Q. When you arrived in Crna Rijeka in 1992, I think you said in your

3 evidence that you arrived there even before the command staff, that is

4 the officers of the command of the Main Staff at transcript page 15300.

5 So was it at that time that you first met the officers of the command of

6 the Main Staff, the VRS?

7 A. For the most part, yes.

8 Q. Would it have been at that time that you first met

9 General Mladic, General Milovanovic, General Gvero?

10 A. I think I met General Mladic only in June 1992, I met

11 General Milovanovic in May, and I knew General Gvero from 1977 because he

12 was the headmaster of my school.

13 Q. And would it have been at this -- or during this period of time,

14 that is May or June of 1992, that you first met then-Colonel Tolimir?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And what about Colonel Salapura?

17 A. I knew Colonel Salapura from back in Zagreb, or that part of

18 Croatia where we were. I can't exactly pinpoint the location and time

19 when we met first.

20 Q. You mentioned also in your statement that Ljubisa Beara came to

21 Crna Rijeka later in 1992. Do you remember approximately when in 1992

22 that happened?

23 A. I think that it was December. I only got to know him in

24 December 1992.

25 Q. Is that -- meaning is that the time that you met him first?

Page 12575

1 A. Met him and was introduced to him for the first time.

2 Q. Okay. And just so we have it clear in the record, in what

3 position was Colonel Beara, Naval Captain Beara, in the Main Staff, when

4 you met him back in 1992?

5 A. I think his position was chief of security of the Main Staff.

6 Q. And what about Colonel Salapura, in that same period?

7 A. Colonel Salapura was the chief of the intelligence service of the

8 Main Staff.

9 Q. All right. I just want to turn your attention now, if I could,

10 to 1995. And just briefly, in your transcript of evidence in the Tolimir

11 case you indicated that the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was a unit

12 of the Main Staff and that it was intended to provide security for the

13 Main Staff and the rear command post of the Main Staff.

14 First, can you tell us specifically what Main Staff facilities

15 the MP Battalion was required to secure, if there were any in addition to

16 the command post of the rear command post?

17 A. Well, all the features which were present at the command post; in

18 fact, they were two buildings. Well, the entire command post. And when

19 I say the command post, in addition to the Main Staff, you also had the

20 67th Communications Regiment forces and the MP Battalion. All of them

21 were headquartered in the area of Crna Rijeka. There was also an

22 underground installation which was on higher ground compared to these

23 other installations at Crna Rijeka. We provided security for the rear

24 command post of the Main Staff, which was stationed at Han Pijesak. So

25 those were the installations that the MP Battalion provided security for.

Page 12576

1 Q. Let me just clarify one thing. With respect to the rear command

2 post, first, does that refer to a logistics centre or -- or if you could

3 just tell us what that refers to, what facilities it refers to?

4 A. The rear logistics command post was not in Crna Rijeka. Most of

5 it, the greater part of it, or in its entirety, it was located in the

6 Han Pijesak facilities. There was a hotel in Han Pijesak and one or two

7 more facilities next to that hotel.

8 Q. Do you recall if the rear command post was located near the

9 Han Pijesak police station, or where it was in relation to the police

10 station?

11 A. Very close to the police station. Han Pijesak is a small town,

12 and it's all very close to each other.

13 Q. I'm just going to ask you for just a little bit more precision on

14 this. Can you tell us what you mean by "very close to each other," maybe

15 in terms of metres or kilometres?

16 A. There is about a hundred metres between the police station and

17 the rear command post.

18 Q. You indicated in your testimony at transcript page 15302 that one

19 of the tasks of your MP Battalion was to provide security for entitled

20 members of the Main Staff. Can I take that to mean that -- or, rather,

21 can you tell us if that included General Mladic and other members of the

22 command, of the VRS command?

23 A. This primarily referred to the commander of the Main Staff,

24 General Mladic, and there was also a section from the company --

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear which one.

Page 12577

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- whose task throughout the war

2 was to be with the commander and to provide security for him in place and

3 during movement. There was also General Milovanovic. He also had

4 security, but it was per request depending on his activities. And the

5 chief of security --

6 JUDGE ORIE: You earlier referred to a section from the company.

7 And then the interpreters could not catch the name of that company.

8 Could you repeat that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a section from the

10 anti-terrorist company.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

12 Q. Was that part of the 65th Protection Regiment or was that part of

13 a different unit?

14 A. It was part of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment. I think

15 that I was clear. It's a section from the anti-terrorist company that

16 was part of the MP Battalion. That squad or the soldiers and the

17 officers from that squad, were not always the same, but depending on the

18 requirements, the number would be higher or lower depending on the task

19 that they were being assigned.

20 Q. Are you familiar with someone by the name of Puhalo,

21 Branislav Puhalo?

22 A. Branislav Puhalo was a sergeant first class. He was an officer

23 of the Military Police Battalion, and he was the commander of the squad

24 entrusted with security for General Mladic.

25 Q. Was he subordinate to you?

Page 12578

1 A. By establishment, it was subordinated to the commander of the

2 platoon, or the anti-terrorist company. I was the third in line superior

3 to Branislav Puhalo.

4 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, did Branislav Puhalo provide, for lack

5 of a better term, close protection to General Mladic during July 1995?

6 A. The entire squad had the task of providing security for

7 General Mladic. Their commanding officer, the commander of the squad,

8 knew what his assignment was, with the proviso that General Mladic,

9 depending on the situation that he was in, could order or to say what the

10 squad needed to do in a specific situation, in a given situation, because

11 you could not abide by any rule or regulation. You could not predict all

12 the situations that the person being protected could find themselves in.

13 I don't know if at that point he was providing close protection or not.

14 He probably was. I really could not say whether he was or wasn't because

15 I wasn't with them in order to be able to say that.

16 Q. All right. I just wanted to know if you had knowledge of that,

17 and you've answered that.

18 Besides Branislav Puhalo, can you recall the name of any other

19 member of this squad that you refer to that was responsible for

20 protecting General Mladic or other members of the Main Staff of the VRS

21 in July 1995 in particular? And if you don't recall, just say so, that's

22 fine, and then we can move ahead.

23 A. The only commanding officer was Branislav Puhalo. The others

24 were soldiers who, because of the circumstances or particular

25 assignments, would rotate in that squad. So I really couldn't say who

Page 12579

1 was with General Mladic in July 1995.

2 Q. Okay. In your testimony, you noted that the immediate superior

3 to the 65th Protection Regiment was General Mladic, commander of the

4 Main Staff. That's at transcript page 15305.

5 What I want to ask you is: What was the relationship between

6 General Mladic then and Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic, the commander of your

7 unit?

8 A. I think that it was a relationship between a superior officer and

9 a subordinate.

10 Q. Meaning that General Savcic was directly subordinated to

11 General Mladic or he was one or two steps below General Mladic? Can you

12 elaborate on that a little bit?

13 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic at that time was directly subordinated

14 to General Mladic according to the rule of subordination and singleness

15 of command.

16 Q. Do you recall if Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic received orders from

17 General Mladic with respect to the disposition of the regiment's military

18 police units? Do you recall what the situation was?

19 A. I didn't know that Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic received any orders

20 regarding the disposition of the MP units. When I previously testified,

21 I explained the disposition of the units in July 1995, the disposition of

22 the Military Police Battalion, where they were and what were their tasks

23 in June and July 1995. I'm not aware if General Mladic issued the order

24 for the use of the military police in July 1995.

25 Q. What about at any time other than July 1995? I don't think I was

Page 12580

1 specific to July 1995 in my question. Are you aware of General - rather,

2 now general, but previously lieutenant-colonel - Savcic receiving orders

3 from General Mladic with respect to the disposition of the regiment's

4 Military Police Battalion?

5 A. I think that Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic received orders for the

6 execution of certain assignments, that the regiment was supposed to carry

7 out, and that Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic decided which unit from the

8 regiment would be engaged on the execution of certain kinds of

9 assignments. Probably the main body of the force of the regiment was the

10 battalion, so for the most part, 95 per cent of the assignments, whether

11 combat assignments of defensive or assault nature, the MP Battalion was

12 engaged on top of its duties in security in relation to the Main Staff.

13 Q. Are you aware that Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic testified in the

14 Popovic case in September 2007?

15 A. As far as I know, he only testified in the case against

16 General Tolimir.

17 Q. Okay. Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic testified in the Popovic case on

18 12 September 2007, and at transcript page 15240, lines 2 through 4, he

19 gave the following answer to the following question. I just want to ask

20 you about that but let me read it to you first.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have a 65 ter number so that

22 we can follow what --

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I don't have it. It's a public transcript, I

24 don't have it as a 65 ter exhibit. Perhaps I can ask for the assistance

25 of the Registrar to bring it up but it's very brief. It's only two lines

Page 12581

1 really.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the shorter it is, the more important the

3 context may be. That's usually --

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could be.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there is any way to have it on our screens,

6 I would prefer that, but if not, let's proceed.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. At transcript page 15240, lines 2 through 4, 12 September 2007,

10 Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic gave the following answer to the following

11 question:

12 "Q. And with respect to the disposition of the military police

13 units from whom did you receive your orders?

14 "A. From the commander of the Main Staff."

15 What I wanted to ask you about that is, first, whether or not

16 that comports with your recollection of what the situation was within the

17 regiment at any point from 1992 all the way up to the end of the war.

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Ms. Stewart advises me that she can show it on

19 Sanction.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If that's possible, we would like to have a look at

21 it.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, it's lines 2 through 4.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please continue.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. I think my question to you, sir, was whether or not this comports

Page 12582

1 with your recollection of what the situation was at any point during the

2 time that you were the Military Police Battalion commander with the

3 65th Motorised Protection Regiment?

4 A. Yes. I understand. But there was a break because of the

5 president. Well, let's just clarify what you mean when you say the

6 "disposition." Do you mean the deployment and the security of the

7 battalion, or do you mean the actual engagement of the battalion on the

8 execution of certain assignments? What do you mean when you say

9 "disposition"?

10 Q. Fair question. Does -- let me ask you this -- let me ask it this

11 way: Is this statement of General Savcic's - Lieutenant-Colonel

12 Savcic's - is it true in any respect with -- concerning the military

13 police units? Disposition meaning engagement of units, or disposition

14 meaning security and equipping of units. In any way is it true or

15 accurate?

16 A. You mentioned a couple of facts, a couple of different things.

17 If we are talking about the engagement of the unit and the use of the

18 unit, the regiment commander decides where he would engage certain units

19 from the regiment. General Mladic has the right to say that for the

20 execution of a certain task, a certain type of unit should be engaged.

21 As for equipping the unit and the professional part of the execution of

22 an assignment, this was something that was the chief of security of the

23 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska was in charge with.

24 Probably - I say probably because I was not present for that -

25 General Mladic consulted his assistant, the commander for intelligence

Page 12583

1 and security, when the battalion was engaged or the professional part of

2 the battalion was engaged in the period from 1992 to 1995.

3 Q. All right. I think you've answered my question. And just for

4 the record, the assistant commander for intelligence and security, that

5 would have been Colonel and then General Tolimir; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As General Mladic was the immediate superior of the

8 65th Motorised Protection Regiment as a unit of the Main Staff, was he

9 the immediate superior of other units of the Main Staff, as well, to your

10 knowledge?

11 A. Other than the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment, there was also

12 the 67th Communications Regiment which was also directly subordinated to

13 the commander of the Main Staff. And I'm not really familiar or I don't

14 know in detail if there were any other units in the same situation.

15 There were HQ units which were immediately subordinated at the command

16 post. There was the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment and there was the

17 67th Communications Regiment, those two.

18 Q. What about the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

19 A. The 10th Sabotage Detachment was formed in 1994, I think, and it

20 seems that that was also directly subordinated to General Mladic. The

21 professional officer in charge of that was Colonel Salapura.

22 Q. All right.

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'm having a little trouble

24 seeing the clock. I just wonder how much we have before the break.

25 JUDGE ORIE: A couple of minutes.

Page 12584

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Thank you.

2 Q. You indicated in your previous testimony, and that's at

3 transcript page 15311, that on several occasions you went to receive

4 tasks directly from the Main Staff commander with

5 Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic. Do you recall whether General Mladic directly

6 issued orders to you separately and apart from your going to him or

7 receiving those instructions through Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic? If you

8 don't remember, that's fine, too. Just let me know.

9 A. I cannot remember General Mladic issuing direct assignments.

10 When -- perhaps when Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic was wounded, maybe that

11 was one occasion, when we were in the Sarajevo sector in 1994,

12 Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic was in the hospital receiving medical treatment

13 for his wounding, and then I was in charge of that part of the unit, so

14 that was a difficult situation at that time for the

15 Army of Republika Srpska in that sector. And that was when

16 General Mladic, when I was heading one part of the unit, not just the

17 battalion but the Protection Regiment, he gave me certain assignments,

18 even though at that time I was subordinated directly or attached to the

19 command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

20 Q. Do you remember what you said regarding this particular issue in

21 your Tolimir testimony? And let me ask it this way: What you said was,

22 and this is at transcript page 15311, it's the last line through 15312, I

23 believe line 2, you said that, when you were the main commander, rather:

24 "When I was the main commander responsible for carrying out

25 certain tasks in these cases I received orders directly from the

Page 12587

1 commander of the Drina Corps at the time.

2 Q. I just want to clarify something for the record which has you

3 saying that General Milovanovic was the commander of the Drina Corps at

4 the time.

5 A. Zivanovic.

6 Q. Thanks for that clarification. Can you tell us what did you in

7 response to the information you received from General Zivanovic on the

8 evening of 12 July?

9 A. At the Nova Kasaba barracks, there were 20-odd soldiers and

10 officers from the battalion present. I informed my own superior, or

11 actually I got in contact with the command post at Kuka,

12 Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic was present there -- or rather of the regiment,

13 the command post of the regiment, and there there was the Colonel Jazic,

14 who responded on behalf of the regiment. And as for the logistics unit,

15 the canine unit, and the MP trainers unit, I informed all of them with a

16 view to reinforcing or stepping up the level of security provided for the

17 location where I was.

18 Q. Did you deploy units to the road between Nova Kasaba and

19 Konjevic Polje on 12th of July?

20 A. No. On the 12th of July, I provided security for the building

21 where I was, that's to say the school, the repeater on the hill

22 overlooking the school included. So that's the only part of the job that

23 I could do with the soldiers that I had at my disposal.

24 Q. I want to show you P724, if I could have that in e-court, please.

25 I'm quite sure you've not seen this document before but let us know if

Page 12588

1 you recognise it. It's a report, as you can see, concerning the combat

2 engagement of the Special Police Brigade and other police forces in

3 Operation Srebrenica 95, and you see the period from 11 July to 21 July,

4 and what I'm interested in is found at page 3 in the English, and it's

5 found at page 3 in the B/C/S. Specifically, if we can get there -- what

6 I'd like to do, actually, first is just so that we have some orientation,

7 we can go to page 2 in the English so we can see what day we are talking

8 about in the report, and also in the B/C/S, and we'll see in both we

9 should see 12 July, and then can go to page 3 in both documents, and we

10 should be able to see what I'll refer you to.

11 Are we able to get the B/C/S on the screen or -- all right.

12 In the B/C/S we have to go to page 2 in e-court, which should be

13 ERN ending 842, so that we can see the date. Okay. There you can see at

14 the bottom of the screen in your language that we are going to talk about

15 12 July 1995, the same in the English, we can see that and that's

16 referred to as St. Peter's day. Now if we go to both page 3 in the

17 English and the B/C/S, I want to ask you about the disposition of your

18 units.

19 Okay. I think we've got it now. I want to refer you to the

20 paragraph that starts with the 2nd Special Police Detachment of the

21 1st Company of the Zvornik PJP. Do you see that? It's about two

22 paragraphs up from the date 13 July 1995. Do you see the paragraph, sir,

23 that I'm referring to?

24 A. Do you mean this along the Kravica-Sandici stretch?

25 Q. Maybe it will be easier if I just read it in and you can tell me

Page 12589

1 about it. What it says here is, and this is a report by

2 Ljubisa Borovcanin, who was the deputy commander of the Special Police

3 Brigade of the Republika Srpska MUP, and what he reports here on the

4 12th of July 1995 is he says:

5 "The segment from Nova Kasaba to Konjevic Polje was covered by

6 elements of the Protection Regiment."

7 You'll see that right above the numbers 3.000, 4.000 enemy

8 soldiers. It's right in the middle of the page in the English and it's

9 about two-thirds of the way down the page in your language.

10 Do you recall deploying members of your battalion to the segment

11 of road from Nova Kasaba to Konjevic Polje, covering that area

12 on 12 July 1995? And if you don't, that's fine too.

13 A. No. On the 12th of July, the MP Battalion didn't have a single

14 assignment related to the activities in and around Srebrenica along this

15 axis and in this sector.

16 Q. Are you aware of any other units of the Protection Regiment in

17 that location on that date?

18 A. Not a single unit of the Protection Regiment was present along

19 that axis on that day.

20 Q. Was -- were members of the military police battalion present at

21 that location on the following day, 13 July 1995? And that is, just so

22 we are clear for the record, the stretch of road between Nova Kasaba and

23 Konjevic Polje.

24 A. The MP Battalion units together with the reinforcement we

25 received from the Crna Rijeka area, it was a reinforced platoon of an

Page 12590

1 armoured platoon, and detachment of the communications battalion took up

2 positions from the hill overlooking the school building all the way to

3 the area close to the Nova Kasaba-Konjevic Polje road where there is a

4 stream. To give you the bearings, from the detergent manufacturing

5 factory it's about 150 or 200 metres away or some 200 to 250 metres away

6 from the football pitch in the centre of Nova Kasaba. So that was the

7 disposition on the 13th of July of the MP Battalion and elements of the

8 Communications Regiment.

9 Q. Where they were located was for the purpose of securing that

10 stretch of road; is that correct?

11 A. The engagement and occupation of these positions was not with a

12 view to securing the road but to prevent the forces of the 28th Division

13 from breaking through the area from the direction of Srebrenica to --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat the name of the

15 location?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the name of the location?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The disposition of the MP Battalion

18 units on the 13th of July, 1995, stretched from the hill overlooking the

19 school through to the road between Konjevic Polje and Kasaba.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The question was a bit different. You were asked

21 to repeat the direction of the movement of the 28th Division breaking

22 through from the direction of Srebrenica to where?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Srebrenica to Tuzla.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.

Page 12591

1 Q. Just so that we have our bearings, you've indicated a number of

2 locations but what I'd like to know are two things primarily: How far is

3 it, to your recollection, from the barracks where your unit was stationed

4 to the intersection at Konjevic Polje, just roughly?

5 A. Approximately three to four kilometres.

6 Q. And how far is it from your barracks where the MP Battalion was

7 situated, to the Nova Kasaba football stadium or football pitch?

8 A. About 300 metres.

9 Q. Were you aware that the Drina Corps 5th Engineering Battalion was

10 stationed in Konjevic Polje on 13 July 1995, that there were units there?

11 A. I knew that the Engineering Battalion of the Drina Corps was

12 stationed in Konjevic Polje. Was it exactly the case on the 13th or not,

13 I don't know. What I do know is that they had quarters where their men

14 were billeted. At a certain point, was it 1994 or 1995, elements of my

15 unit were billeted at the same location. It was an APC unit, because the

16 school or actually the barracks at Kasaba did not rise up to the required

17 standards for the quarters for my men who I was training at the time.

18 Q. In the interests of time I'm just going to see if I can ask you

19 to try and be as responsive to the question as you can. Specifically

20 I was asking you about 13 July so if you don't know where they were on

21 13 July, just let us know and I can move on to my next question.

22 Were you in contact with the Drina Corps 5th Engineering Units at

23 any point on 12 or 13 July?

24 A. I believe that I was. A number of soldiers had come over to

25 block the passage between the elements of the unit I was in command of

Page 12592

1 and the unit from Zvornik which was under blockade along the stretch of

2 road between Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje. I don't know if I was there

3 myself, but I do know that they came to the area to cut off or prevent

4 elements of the 28th Division from passing through the area.

5 Q. When your unit began to capture or receive members of the column

6 passing through your area, you indicated in your previous testimony that

7 you contacted Jovo Jazic, the deputy commander of the regiment at

8 Crna Rijeka. Do you remember that?

9 A. Yes. I informed the Chief of Staff, Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic, of

10 it because he was the only one from among the superior officers who was

11 at the Protection Regiment's post.

12 Q. Did you speak to anybody else at the Main Staff in relation to

13 the situation that your units were facing at Nova Kasaba the morning of

14 the 13th when you spoke to or around the time you spoke to Colonel Jazic?

15 A. It is highly possible that I spoke to the commanding officers

16 from the Main Staff that same morning of the 13th of July.

17 Q. Who would that be, sir?

18 A. To my knowledge at the time, from the most senior officers of the

19 Main Staff, Generals Gvero and Miletic were present at the command post.

20 Q. Can you tell us approximately when, relative to the time that you

21 called Colonel Jazic, that you would have spoken to either or both

22 General Gvero or Miletic?

23 A. I can't give you the exact time. The first contact with

24 Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic took place that morning, when I found out what

25 the situation was that we were in, and I asked him to give permission for

Page 12593

1 elements of my unit to go to the Kasaba area. That was at around 6.30 or

2 7.00 in the morning of the 13th. Now, what time it was when I spoke to

3 the officers at the Main Staff, I don't have any information about that.

4 I can't remember what time it was.

5 Q. All right. I'll just have to live with that answer. What I want

6 to know is when was it relative to when you called Jazic, an hour later,

7 two hours later, five minutes later? But if you can't remember, also

8 just let us know so I can move on to my next question. Can you answer

9 the question?

10 A. I can clarify without going too far and wide.

11 Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic was the only officer from the

12 Protection Regiment. Now, the person in charge of security for the

13 Main Staff was practically him. He was in command of all the forces of

14 the MP Battalion and all the other units of the Protection Regiment. It

15 is possible that Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic said --

16 Q. I don't mean to cut you off, but my question is very direct and

17 is very simple. Can you tell us, to the best of your recollection,

18 whether your call to members of the Main Staff command, when it was

19 relative to the other call? Was it shortly after, a month later, or

20 immediately after? Can you give us an idea of how long it is? That's

21 all I want to know. And if the answer is no, just say no.

22 A. I wanted to explain the situation to you but if you're asking me,

23 then I will say --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please answer the question.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

Page 12594

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE:

3 Q. You recall speaking with General Savcic on the morning of

4 13 July, do you, or Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic at the time?

5 A. I remember speaking to Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic on 13th July.

6 Q. You spoke to him about the same issues that you spoke to

7 Colonel Jazic about, is that fair?

8 A. Since I didn't know the whereabouts of Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic,

9 it is more likely that he called me in order to find out what the

10 situation was in my area.

11 Q. As I mentioned before, are you aware that -- well, you are aware

12 now -- General Savcic testified in the Popovic case about those telephone

13 calls, and in his testimony indicated you called him on two separate

14 occasions, at least. Does that refresh your recollection of your

15 contacts with General Savcic on the morning of 13 July? For the

16 Chamber's benefit, I can provide the transcript references: Transcript

17 pages 15249, lines 13 through 17, and transcript page 15251, lines 22

18 through 25, through transcript page 15252, lines 1 through 9. Does that

19 refresh your recollection, sir?

20 A. I say again I didn't know where Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic was.

21 Probably he contacted me and called me, if the Chief of Staff informed

22 him about the situation that was happening in the sector of Nova Kasaba.

23 Whether he called me once or twice, and as for all the contacts in the

24 following period, were always initiated by him.

25 Q. What I'm saying to you, sir, is that Colonel Savcic says you

Page 12595

1 called him. Specifically, he says:

2 "Major Malinic called me in the morning of that day. It was in

3 the early morning hours, I can't remember when, he told me that the

4 Nova Kasaba sector -- that in the Nova Kasaba sector there were two or

5 three prisoners of war by then."

6 And that's at transcript page 124 -- 15249, lines 15 through 17.

7 I take it you disagree with that, you dispute it?

8 A. Yes. I dispute that, and I believe that

9 Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic called me.

10 Q. Okay. What he says at transcript page 15252 in response to the

11 following question, and that's starting at line 2:

12 "Q. When was the next conversation you had with Major Malinic?

13 "A. I'm not sure about the time again, but again Major Malinic

14 called me and then he relayed to me the following information."

15 He starts to talk about the information that he received from

16 you. I take it you dispute that as well?

17 A. I don't know what information he received from me.

18 Q. He says that you told him that:

19 "The situation was getting more complex," continuing on line 5,

20 "that there was a continuous stream of larger groups of people, mostly

21 members of the 28th Division from Srebrenica, who were surrendering and

22 that," you, he says, "he was facing a problem. He could not protect the

23 people, he could not protect his men, let alone the prisoners."

24 That concludes at line 9 of 15252, 12 September 2007. Does that

25 sound about right and does that comport with your recollection of the

Page 12596

1 day's events? If it doesn't, just let us know.

2 A. I agree to a point but with some of that I disagree. I agree the

3 situation is complicated, a large number of members of the 28th Division

4 were in that area. Combat was in progress. There were a lot of

5 prisoners, but --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last thing

7 he said?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the situation on the

9 13th of July. If we are talking about how I could not protect myself or

10 the prisoners, I believe that I did both things with the members of my

11 unit.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, there was a part of the witness's

13 evidence I think that didn't come through in the --

14 JUDGE ORIE: You said -- in your previous answer you said, in

15 your last answer, "There were a lot of prisoners, but --" and what you

16 then said was not caught by the interpreters. Could you repeat that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that it was a complicated

18 situation, that there were many members of the 28th Division in that

19 sector, that there were combat actions going on, and that in that period,

20 I captured or a large number of members of the division surrendered, that

21 I had relatively few men, but that I managed to protect both my own men

22 and the prisoners.

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. You spoke to Colonel Beara on 13 July in the morning. Do you

25 recall that?

Page 12597

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that was at about 10.15 in the morning, do you recall that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And during the course of that conversation, did you explain to

5 Colonel Beara approximately how many prisoners there were at that time?

6 A. I probably informed him about the number of prisoners who were in

7 the sector of my unit.

8 Q. And was that about 500 prisoners at that time, to your

9 recollection?

10 A. I think that if we are talking about the time period at quarter

11 past 10.00, I don't think that it was that number, 500 prisoners.

12 Q. I'd like to show you P1255.

13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Please can I have that in e-court?

14 THE REGISTRAR: The document is under seal.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much.

16 Q. What I'm showing you is a radio intercept from the

17 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's dated 13 July 1995, and you can see the

18 time reflected there at 10.15. You've seen this one before, haven't you,

19 Major?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. And just so we are clear for the record, we can see that it

22 refers to a conversation here between Beara, Lucic and Zoka. Lucic was a

23 member of your MP Battalion; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. He was your deputy?

Page 12598

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Zoka, that's a nickname for you, isn't it?

3 A. It's not my nickname. But probably in this context, and in this

4 dispatch, that's how I was referred to, probably, but nobody actually

5 called me Zoka.

6 Q. Okay. Here you see Beara referring to 400 balijas showing up in

7 Konjevic Polje. That's not exactly where your unit was; is that right?

8 A. I wasn't in Konjevic Polje.

9 Q. And to your knowledge, the 5th Engineering Battalion of the

10 Drina Corps was in that location, is that -- is that right?

11 A. I told you, I don't know if it was on the 13th, but it was

12 located there, its barracks were there, but I don't know if they were

13 there on the 13th in that section.

14 Q. Okay. What I'd like to do is I'd like to go to page 2 in the

15 English and also page 2 in the B/C/S. And here we can see what's

16 attributed to Zoka as providing information to Beara in the middle of the

17 page, who says, "What's new?" And the response is, "Well, easy, there

18 are about 500." Does that comport with your recollection of the

19 conversation you had with Colonel Beara on 13 -- on the morning, rather,

20 of 13 July 1995?

21 A. I saw that on the previous page, approximately 500, but since

22 this was cut off earlier, I don't know what this referred to, the number

23 of people that were in that sector, that it was the estimate that there

24 was so many men from the division. Most probably it's that number, 500.

25 As for the number of prisoners at that time, there were no 500 prisoners

Page 12599

1 at the stadium. We did not capture then 500 prisoners and have them at

2 the stadium.

3 Q. Well, at the -- in the middle of that intercept, if we go just a

4 couple of lines up, we can see Beara saying to line them up in rows of

5 four and five or -- you see that? It's about seven lines down in the

6 English from the top of the page. And it's on the first page of the

7 B/C/S.

8 A. I had the second page or a different page.

9 Q. And looks like it's about ten lines up from the bottom of that

10 page.

11 A. Yes, yes. I see it. Line them up in four, five rows.

12 Q. And on that page also four lines from the bottom you can see the

13 reference to the 500; correct?

14 A. Yes, that's down at the bottom.

15 Q. You also had an opportunity to speak to Colonel Salapura that

16 morning; is that right?

17 A. I don't know whether it was in the morning or during the day. I

18 don't know exactly what time it was, but on the 13th, it was the case

19 that Colonel Salapura was in the area either of the stadium or of the

20 school. I really couldn't say which. But we did see each other.

21 Q. You spoke to him; right? You had a conversation with him?

22 A. I assume so, yes.

23 Q. Do you recall whether or not he was looking for General Mladic at

24 the time that you saw him on 13 July 1995?

25 A. I cannot remember if he was looking for General Mladic then.

Page 12600

1 Q. Let me show you 65 ter -- I'm sorry, P1256.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Document is also under seal.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE:

4 Q. Here you can see the intercept in your language on the left side

5 of the page, for our purposes it's intercept 924 timed at 10.15 at the

6 bottom of the page. If you could just zoom in on that part, it will be

7 easier to read for everyone, at the bottom of the page in the English.

8 Thank you. You can read that, Major.

9 A. Yes, yes, I've read it.

10 Q. It indicates a couple of things that I think are important. One,

11 it indicates that you were in contact with Salapura; right?

12 A. I said that I don't know if we were at the stadium or at the

13 office. I'm not sure which.

14 Q. Okay. It also indicates that there were around 500 prisoners

15 there at the moment?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic?

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Apologies to my learned friend.

18 It was said that this was intercept, and I think that it would be fair to

19 the witness also to say whether this is the text of the intercepted

20 conversation or is this a summary of something and we don't see the

21 source of the summary? This is not the format of an intercept.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, compared to the previous one, this

23 seems to be a summary. Is that true, and is the original text available?

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 12604

1 Q. I just want to clarify something. I think what we are looking at

2 is P1256. I don't know if that's what Mr. Stojanovic intended to refer

3 to, but what I thought I heard him say was 1255. But in any event I can

4 proceed with my next couple of questions. And I do apologise,

5 Mr. President, I know I'm running behind quite substantially at this

6 point. I'm trying to cut it down as -- if I can, and I asked permission

7 to lead the witness a little bit so I can speed things up?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, to what extent the Chamber will take a

9 passive approach and if there is any objections against leading, we'll

10 deal with that once we are there. When you say you're a little bit

11 behind, Mr. Vanderpuye, it's not the first time. I wanted to have this

12 be put on the record.

13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. I wanted to show him about four

14 intercepts. I'm stuck on this one so I don't think I'll do that. And so

15 I hope to show him maybe two other intercepts and then perhaps one

16 document and wrap it up.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Do as you announced.

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Are -- we are in open

19 session, yes? Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.

21 MR. VANDERPUYE:

22 Q. Mr. Malinic, I was asking you questions about your contact with

23 Colonel Salapura on the morning of 13 July 1995. Are you aware that

24 Colonel Salapura testified in the Tolimir case?

25 A. No.

Page 12605

1 Q. Would it refresh your recollection were I to tell you that he

2 testified that he came to the MP Battalion - this is, just for the

3 record, transcript page 13580 through 13581 - that he came to the

4 battalion, MP Battalion, and he says:

5 "I believe the battalion commander, Malinic, was there. And then

6 they told me that they didn't know exactly but he was somewhere in the

7 area of Bratunac," referring to General Mladic. And then he says, "He

8 was not at the football pitch itself," and this is also at transcript

9 page 13583, "that he just passed by it, and on the way back from Bratunac

10 he was stopped by a non-commissioned officer," and he says, "I think that

11 person asked me to go see Malinic again and to pass it on to him that

12 there were certain problems there. Whether it was about water, I can't

13 remember now, but I met with Malinic both on my way there and back."

14 Does that refresh your recollection as to your interaction with

15 Colonel Salapura on the morning of 13 July?

16 A. A large number of soldiers and senior officers or, rather, senior

17 officers and politicians were in that area on the 13th of July, or they

18 were passing through. Which senior officers they were, who I met with

19 from so long ago, it's difficult to say. Most probably these were

20 encounters, once or twice. I don't know if they were at the stadium or

21 in the barracks or if they took place at positions where I was. I am not

22 100 per cent sure to be able to confirm the information about the place

23 and the persons that I met with that day.

24 Q. All right. I'll have to accept that one. While you were --

25 first of all, do you recall going to the football stadium on

Page 12606

1 13 July 1995? You remember doing that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Around what time of day did you go?

4 A. From the morning until the prisoners left the stadium. I don't

5 know if that was ten, 15 or 20 times. This was the sector that I was in.

6 So I did not count how many times I went to the stadium area.

7 Q. So you were at the stadium pretty much throughout the day, on and

8 off. Is that a fair characterisation of what you did?

9 A. You could say that in the area of responsibility where my units

10 were deployed, I was there the whole day. I cannot tell you in

11 percentages what part of the day I spent at the stadium. It was all very

12 close, so I can confirm that I was at the stadium all day. I couldn't

13 have any contacts or communications with the superior command and report

14 to them because the only means of communication that I had at my disposal

15 was in the barracks -- or, rather, at the school where my units were

16 located.

17 Q. In your testimony in the Tolimir case, and this is at

18 transcript page 15378, lines 18 through 20, you're talking about when

19 General Mladic addressed the prisoners. And what you say is:

20 "Prior to his arrival, I was not at the stadium, at the field.

21 When General Mladic arrived, I was informed by way of radio that he had

22 arrived and I went there and I arrived a few minutes later."

23 Is that accurate?

24 A. Yes. When General Mladic came to the football pitch in

25 Nova Kasaba, I was not at the pitch at that point in time. I was not in

Page 12607

1 that sector.

2 Q. And when General Mladic arrived at Nova Kasaba and addressed the

3 prisoners, was the process of making a list of the prisoners ongoing?

4 A. The process of making a list lasted from the moment of capture

5 until the soldiers of the 28th Division went off in buses and trucks.

6 When General Mladic happened to be at the stadium, he addressed the

7 prisoners, and at that point in time the taking down of the names of the

8 prisoners had to be interrupted because he was addressing all members of

9 the 28th Division at the stadium or at the pitch.

10 Q. In terms of the list of prisoners that was made, did you turn

11 that list over to anybody? Or your unit? Did your unit turn that list

12 over to anyone?

13 A. The list of prisoners were handed over to the Chief of Staff,

14 Jovo Jazic.

15 Q. Did anybody dealing with the prisoners and the 13th of July

16 request that list from your unit?

17 A. Nobody requested the list of prisoners that we made.

18 Q. Did it strike you as odd that prisoners who were destined,

19 according to General Mladic, to be exchanged, that the list did not

20 accompany them when they left your custody to go to Bratunac?

21 A. There was nothing there to constitute a problem, in my mind.

22 These prisoners were supposed to go through security processing, they

23 were supposed to be interviewed, and on the basis of these interviews

24 information would be obtained concerning certain individuals who were

25 being searched for. Therefore, the list that I drew up was the list of

Page 12608

1 soldiers that we captured in the Nova Kasaba area.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to ask one question. You said the process

3 of making a list lasted from the moment of capture until the soldiers of

4 the 28th Division went off in buses and trucks. Now, were the names of

5 all those who boarded on those buses or trucks put down on that list?

6 Was the list complete?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't confirm that. I don't

8 think that all the prisoners who were there added up on the list. The

9 time at that -- that was at the disposal did not allow that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: After Mr. Mladic had addressed the persons on this

11 football pitch, was then the listing of names continued?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it did. There was no

13 reason why the process of listing prisoners should not continue.

14 JUDGE ORIE: What was then the purpose of listing them?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the rules of service

16 of the military police, the individuals who are taken or brought in, who

17 are captured, should be listed because you have to know who you have in

18 your custody. That was the purpose of drawing up a list. You need to

19 know who you have as prisoners.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which would require a complete list, whereas

21 you said that these lists were not complete.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you that most probably

23 the lists were not completed because the vehicles which were supposed to

24 transport them arrived in the area of the stadium. Since this was just

25 before dark, there was the risk that the security and safety primarily of

Page 12609

1 these prisoners would be endangered. I had no way of securing the

2 location where they were. I didn't have any flood-lights. I didn't have

3 a fence that I would be able to put up in order to keep the prisoners all

4 in one place. Thirdly, I didn't have enough men to fully secure these

5 prisoners at night when visibility is less.

6 JUDGE ORIE: First, then, the rule was not applied when you

7 thought of a good reason not to apply that rule? Is that correctly

8 understood?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, time did not permit me to

10 finish what I started.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Time was a reason not to further apply the rule.

12 Second you said you -- the risk --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Risk to the security and the safety primarily of

15 these prisoners would be endangered. What were the risks these prisoners

16 at that point in time were exposed to, and to which you would have to

17 protect them against?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you take somebody

19 prisoners, then you are responsible for his security and safety. With my

20 unit I was unable to provide full security in outdoors in conditions of

21 reduced visibility. I could not provide security to anyone in the area

22 since I lacked the required resources.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye, but not for too

24 long.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 12610

1 JUDGE ORIE: You're well beyond your time.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm aware of that. Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Malinic in your Tolimir testimony, transcript page 15378,

4 line 6, you specifically addressed this question of listing prisoners,

5 and what you say in your answer, and I'll be brief, is that, "I don't

6 know whether they were all listed." Is that the gist of your testimony

7 today? Or are you now claiming that they were all listed?

8 A. I think that I said a moment ago that I believed that not all the

9 prisoners were listed.

10 Q. All right. And the list that you made remained with you; is that

11 right?

12 A. Yes. On the 13th of July, it stayed with me.

13 Q. Where is it now, if you know?

14 A. I think that I said once before that the list, together with some

15 other documentation, was handed over to Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic, who was

16 the Chief of Staff of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment; in other

17 words, the list should be stored in the archive of the regiment. Since

18 the MP Battalion didn't have its own archive, nor would it have one under

19 the rules, the entire archive complete with all the documents should be

20 in the archive of the regiment.

21 Q. Let me show you P1281.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye --

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- you really have to finish now within a few

25 minutes.

Page 12611

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: This is the last intercept I was going to show.

2 Thank you, Mr. President.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Document is also under seal.

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I appreciate your indulgence, Mr. President.

5 Q. All right. We have it on the screen in front of us now. Okay.

6 Sir, you can see this is an intercept timed at 5.30. It is dated 13 July

7 and it refers to 6.000 of them. You can see it's a conversation between

8 X and Y, which begins with, "Is it possible to send about ten buses from

9 Bijeljina?" And Y responds, "Tell them right away to come. There are

10 about 6.000 of them now." And X says, "Of military age?" And Y says,

11 "Shut up, don't repeat." Further on in the conversation, just a couple

12 of lines down, you can see a reference to about 1500 to 2.000 of them at

13 each point.

14 First, do you know what those points are that are referred to in

15 this intercept?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you have at Nova Kasaba between 1500 and 2.000 prisoners, to

18 your recollection, at around 5.30 in the afternoon of 13 July 1995?

19 A. Between 1.000 and 1200 members of the 28th Division were taken

20 prisoner at Kasaba.

21 Q. Do you know how many prisoners there were taken at any other

22 location, such as Sandici meadow, on the afternoon of 13 July 1995?

23 A. I didn't have any communication with Sandici. There is some

24 knowledge on the basis of films and documentaries which had to do with

25 the time and the place. Depending on the programme and depending on who

Page 12615

1 answer isn't simple because the intercept does not contain the entire

2 sentence that I must have uttered.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Whether or not the intercept gives us other

4 information, I hereby establish that you refuse to answer the question.

5 That's what you're doing.

6 Mr. Stojanovic, you can cross-examine the witness.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you still want to answer the question, you

9 can do so, but until now you have refused to answer my question. Whether

10 it's supported by other parts of the conversation is a different matter.

11 I just asked you what did you refer to at that point in time.

12 Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I will put several questions to you and I

16 will do my best to cut this examination short. You said that in the

17 evening of the 12th, you had about 20 members of your unit with you. Can

18 you tell the Chamber what sort of soldiers were these? Were they

19 professional soldiers? Were they enlisted, mobilised soldiers, or were

20 they recruits serving military service?

21 A. Ninety-five per cent of the personnel were in fact recruits

22 serving their obligatory military service. On the 12th of July, 1995,

23 there were elements of the logistics platoon at the barracks, elements of

24 the military police, and some of the command staff, me included. So they

25 were basically recruits serving their obligatory military service.

Page 12616

1 Q. Ninety-five per cent of members of your unit, these servicemen

2 doing their obligatory military service, were in fact young men aged

3 between 18 and 20, would that be right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did your unit at any point have an order, as a unit of the

6 Main Staff, to participate in the military operation around Srebrenica?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know if a single unit of the Main Staff of the

9 Army of Republika Srpska had any specific assignments within the

10 Drina Corps Operation Krivaja 95?

11 A. I don't know if other units of the Main Staff had any duties or

12 any sort of assignments related to Operation Krivaja 95.

13 Q. The first information of the danger that your command and your

14 unit might be involved in was one that you received from

15 General Zivanovic of the Drina Corps; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell the Chamber how you came by this information and in

18 what way?

19 A. General Zivanovic called me over the telephone and told me that

20 major forces of the 28th Division were heading from Srebrenica my way.

21 They were coming to the location where I was.

22 Q. To your knowledge, was a -- was the stretch of the road between

23 Konjevic Polje and Vlasenica and the stretch between Konjevic Polje and

24 Nova Kasaba, on the evening of the 12th of July, covered by any of the

25 formations of the VRS?

Page 12617

1 A. To my knowledge, nobody covered the road between Konjevic Polje

2 and Milici on the 12th of July 1995.

3 Q. The first operative information to the effect that members of the

4 28th Division were present in the area and had crossed the road heading

5 in the direction of the municipality of Zvornik was one that you received

6 from accidental passers-by along that road; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember as you sit here today that on -- or, rather,

9 where it was that the commander of your regiment,

10 Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic, was on the morning of the 13th?

11 A. I didn't have any information about his whereabouts. I only know

12 that he was engaged with elements of the unit in the Zepa area or in that

13 direction. I didn't have information about where specifically he was

14 located.

15 Q. On the morning of the 13th, you received your reinforcements in

16 response to your request. Can you tell us what is your best estimate,

17 how many men did that reinforcement consist of?

18 A. Lieutenant Benak, the commander of the APC unit, was dispatched

19 as a reinforcement from Crna Rijeka. And if I remember correctly, he

20 came with two military police BOVs or combat vehicles and some 40 men.

21 In the course of the day, several hours after Lieutenant Benak

22 arrived with the unit or with that element of the unit, around 30 men

23 came from the 67th, the communications regiment, a detachment there -- a

24 platoon there, and a squad from the anti-aircraft artillery battalion

25 arrived as well, along with a Praga.

Page 12618

1 Q. At that point, once you've received that reinforcement, would it

2 be fair to say that you had roughly 100 men with whom you could proceed

3 to carry out your next assignment?

4 A. Yes. I had around 100 men under my command.

5 Q. According to the operative information that you received from

6 General Zivanovic, did you know how many members of the 28th Division

7 were headed your way, were advancing towards your positions?

8 A. Based on what General Zivanovic told me on the evening of the

9 12th, there were several thousand members of the 28th Division on the

10 move through the area where I was.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question and then we will have to

12 adjourn anyhow. You said they were all on -- there were several thousand

13 members in the area where you were. That is more than 500. Do we agree

14 on that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the information

16 conveyed to me by General Zivanovic was, and this was on the evening of

17 the 12th of July, that along the axis where I was, several thousand

18 members of the 28th Division were on the move. Mr. President, when

19 I said 500, I meant in that sector at that specific time. This was our

20 estimate of how many people were present. That's my opinion.

21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn for the day.

22 Witness, I instruct you that you should not speak with anyone

23 about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given already or

24 testimony still to be given, and we would like to see you back tomorrow

25 morning at half past 9.00 in this same courtroom.