Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12539

 1                           Wednesday, 12 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there were a few preliminary

12     matters to be raised.  Prosecution first.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  For us it's just to confirm that

14     the statement Mr. Ivetic made yesterday, there is no dispute that that

15     particular sentence does not appear in the statements Mr. Ivetic

16     referenced.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that, Mr. Traldi.  That may save a bit

18     of time.  There was a matter to be raised by the Defence as well.

19     Mr. Lukic?

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.  And good morning,

21     Your Honours.

22             At the end of yesterday's working day, Your Honours issued a

23     statement regarding the issue of the Defence request for a reduction in

24     the trial sitting schedule, and it was mentioned that the Defence did not

25     file any additional written submissions.  We just want to inform

Page 12540

 1     Your Honours that the Defence considered filing one but since we received

 2     Registrar's submission on medical report that was actually composed on

 3     the 5th of June this year, where the doctor reiterated his view that we

 4     should have four-day sitting week, we deemed it unnecessary to file

 5     anything additional since we left this in the hands of the medical staff.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the 5th of June, you're saying, is that

 7     the filing date or is that the date of the examination?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  The filing date was the 7th of June.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. LUKIC:  And 5th of June was the actual report.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I was asking because from what I saw,

14     I think I remember that it was a report which was already available in

15     draft during the hearing.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So that it's not something new.  We knew that when

18     Dr. Falke appeared.  Now I'm not sure about that.  We'll have a look at

19     it and we have now on the record the reason why you --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Hearing was on the 4th, as I remember.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. LUKIC:  And this was filed on the 7th.  So I think that there

23     must be something new in that report, since the report is from the 5th,

24     the day after the sitting.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We now understand the reason why you have not

Page 12541

 1     filed anything before the deadline we set for last week Friday, I think

 2     it was, and of course we will consider, as we always did, all the reports

 3     including the last one filed.  Any other matter, Mr. Lukic?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I would just add that Your Honours informed us that

 5     we will continue sitting five days a week until the decision.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Until the decision, yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Can we get anything more precise, when can we expect

 8     your decision on this issue?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I have to look at my colleagues.  My estimate at

10     this moment would be anywhere -- first of all, we are dependent on

11     receiving the information.  That's one, which is -- we haven't received

12     it yet, as I said yesterday, so we want to include that in our

13     deliberations before finally deciding on the matter.  But if you give me

14     one second --

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I can't give you any further details, Mr. Lukic.  We

17     are working hard on it and we'll try to expedite and to deliver that

18     decision as soon as possible.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Only I think that we are waiting for a

20     weight measurement report from the UNDU.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And physiotherapy.

22             MR. LUKIC:  And physiotherapy.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Not say that we do not already start thinking about

Page 12542

 1     it and deliberating on it, but of course we are in the hands of the

 2     doctors for the full information.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you.  And that's the only thing why

 4     I entered the courtroom this morning.  I have to do something in our

 5     Defence room and I would just ask Your Honours to be excused.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You are excused, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then is there any other matter to be raised?  If

 9     not, we move into closed session so as to allow the witness to enter the

10     courtroom.

11                           [Closed session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

Page 12543

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed as soon as the sound disappears.

 3     Please proceed.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

 6        Q.   Good day, Witness.  I'd like to return with you again --

 7        A.   Good day.

 8        Q.   I'd like to return with you again to the time period when

 9     General Mladic was at the Kasaba football pitch.  Is it correct that

10     during that time no one was killed or harmed at that location?

11        A.   Yes, right.  I wasn't able to observe anything like that for the

12     ten minutes that he was there, and I'm referring to the football pitch.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And at no time did General Mladic say or do anything

14     that would indicate a fate different than he had said in his speech; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   It was his understanding -- or, rather, his words were that we

17     would be sent somewhere for an exchange.  However, when we set off in the

18     direction of the trucks and when one of the prisoners was asking for his

19     bag, he was told that he was no longer going to have any use for it, and

20     that point we realised that this was the end.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could we just -- Witness, the specific

22     question was whether there was anything in the behaviour of Mr. Mladic

23     that made you disbelieve that you would be exchanged.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.  At first when he said

25     that we didn't have a state and when he asked where we were heading, and

Page 12544

 1     in a way I thought that they would execute us there and then.

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   And, of course, after he said those words he said you were going

 4     to be exchanged.  Is that the chronology of the speech as you recall it?

 5        A.   Yes.  He said that he would negotiate somewhere to have us

 6     exchanged somewhere.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, how much longer did you stay at the Kasaba

 8     football pitch after General Mladic left before being moved into the

 9     trucks?

10        A.   I left right away.  My row was the first one, since we were on

11     the edge of the pitch.  That row was the first one to board the trucks,

12     and I don't recall Mladic leaving before we started boarding.  I spent

13     altogether 20 minutes there.

14        Q.   I want to now move to when you were transported by the trucks

15     from the Kasaba football field.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Can we please have in e-court 1D1032 and can with we

17     please not broadcast the same to the public so as to ensure the

18     confidential of this witness's identity.

19        Q.   Sir, we already have on the right-hand side of the screen the

20     B/C/S original of this document.  Can I ask you to take a look at the

21     same and confirm whether in fact you recognise this statement given to

22     the named Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities on 28th July 1995?

23        A.   Yes.  I can see the statement, typed.  I don't see my signature

24     anywhere.

25        Q.   If we can turn to the second page in the B/C/S, which would be

Page 12545

 1     the back side of the first page of the original, I believe there are some

 2     signatures faintly visible.  If you could zoom in perhaps on the portion

 3     on the bottom left.  It's faint, but do you see signatures affixed to

 4     this statement, sir, that could be yours?

 5        A.   No.  I don't see my signature here at all.

 6        Q.   Did you give a statement to the Army of the Republic of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina 2nd Corps command security department together with

 8     the other individual who is named on the first page - if you go back to

 9     the first page in B/C/S - and do you see at the top left, sir, that it is

10     recorded you and another individual gave --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Gave statements.  Do you recall giving such a statement?

13        A.   I can see this man's name here.  It is possible that we gave the

14     statement.  We gave many statements but was it on the same day?  I don't

15     know.  We were giving statements every day.  There were many statements

16     we gave.

17        Q.   Thank you, sir.

18             MR. IVETIC:  If we could turn to page 3 in the English and it's

19     page 5 in the B/C/S.

20        Q.   And the B/C/S, sir, it's in the first -- it's about approximately

21     in the middle of the page that we should focus on, and the English it's

22     going to be at the bottom half of the page, and if we can locate the

23     text, sir, it reads as follows:

24             "When they had loaded us on to the trucks and buses, we set off

25     towards Kravica and they told us that they would give us water and food

Page 12546

 1     there.  When we got to Kravica, they stopped the truck -- stopped the

 2     trucks on the road.  We were in the trucks which were covered with

 3     tarpaulin, a hundred or so of us in each truck.  We counted ourselves

 4     while we were in the truck.  I don't know exactly how many trucks there

 5     were because the tarpaulin was pulled down at the back and the trucks

 6     were driven right up close to one another.  In Kravica, they kept us in

 7     the trucks until about 1300 hours the following day.  In the meantime,

 8     Chetnik soldiers came to us and asked whether there was anybody from the

 9     villages of Kamenica, Osmace and Glogova.  Those who said that they were

10     from those villages were taken out of the truck, not far away, then shots

11     would be heard.  I didn't see what happened to those people, but

12     I suppose they were killed.  (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

Page 12547

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12548











11 Pages 12548-12550 redacted. Private session.















Page 12551

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Sir, in your 92 ter statement, P1 --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be broadcast.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Correct, not to be broadcast.

15        Q.   P1547 [Realtime transcript read in error "P1457"], and it's pages

16     37 of the same and pages 7 of both versions.  There we go.  And, sir --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, perhaps if you have the wrong number

18     somewhere there what made you pronounce it twice, or it is 1547.

19             MR. IVETIC:  My apologies again.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   The paragraph at issue, sir, you describe that a man - and you

23     give his name, we don't need to read it out - was tying your hands with

24     rope and he referred to you and the others there saying, you were saying

25     that -- well, he used an expletive, "Motherfuckers, because you all said

Page 12552

 1     you were from Srebrenica and none from Kamenica."

 2             I want to ask you was this individual -- or, did he appear to be

 3     irate or angry when he uttered those words?

 4        A.   Well, yes.  It was not that long.  It was night.  He wasn't in a

 5     usual normal mood.

 6        Q.   And did his reaction indicate or give the impression that he did

 7     not believe that none of you were from Kamenica?

 8        A.   I don't know.  All I know is that he asked me that.  I don't know

 9     if he asked the others or not, perhaps that's how it seemed.  Kamenica is

10     a completely different area around Zvornik, so I can't really say

11     anything about that.  It's 100 kilometres from where we were.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the point you apparently want to make is

13     clear to the Chamber.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Now, I would like to move to another part of your testimony.  In

16     relation to the wounded cousin - I will not repeat the name - that you

17     helped carry when you surrendered, if you could tell us how bad were the

18     injuries at the time that you left him with the soldiers, as you

19     testified yesterday?

20        A.   I -- well, excuse me.  I cannot tell how seriously wounded he

21     was.  He was wounded in the head and in the leg.  He couldn't move by

22     himself.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I would like to move to your testimony of the

24     executions and the bodies at the plateau by the dam.  In your 92 ter

25     statement you estimate 1500 to 2.000 bodies that you saw there, although

Page 12553

 1     the Prosecution said 1.000 in their summary.  I would like to know if

 2     your estimate is based on a guess relating to the number of people you

 3     believe were at the school in total rather than what you physically saw

 4     at the dam.

 5        A.   Correct.  I made the estimate on the basis of the information

 6     based on what I saw in the field, and so I estimated out of how many

 7     would be at the school.  From six classrooms, and I'm quite sure that

 8     there were at least six classrooms, perhaps more, there were at least 200

 9     in each so it would be 1200 people.  I don't know if there were any more

10     in some other room or hall, but the number is definitely more than 1.500.

11        Q.   I must say, sir, now I'm confused by your answer.  You say that

12     you estimated based upon -- well --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I think it's easier -- I think

14     I understand what your problem may be.  Is what you saw at the dam, was

15     that consistent with the calculations you made as to how many people you

16     would expect to be there?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.  It was in keeping

18     with my estimates, what we could see every day.  That plateau was the

19     size of a football pitch, let's say, and you could fit at least 1500

20     people there, and that plateau was full of bodies, dead bodies, of the

21     killed.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

23             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to look at something, and again it should

24     not be broadcast, 1D1036, and we'll need page 61 of the same which should

25     correlate to transcript page 3.000 of the Krstic trial record.  And we

Page 12554

 1     will be looking at line 19 and onwards.

 2        Q.   At that time, sir, you were asked the question from Judge Riad

 3     which I will now read to you along with your answer to see if we can get

 4     a better understanding of your testimony on this:

 5             "Judge Riad:  Now, when you were asked how many people had been

 6     lying in the killing field, you said there would be between -- there

 7     would be between 1500 and 2.000.  Was there enough light for you at your

 8     escape to see the extent of the lying bodies or was it too dark?  I mean,

 9     on what did you base your estimation?

10             "A.  I could make an estimate on the bases of the number of

11     people who had been in the school.  There were three classrooms on that

12     floor so there must have been up to 600 people there.  So I believe the

13     same number of people would have been on the ground floor, and I believe

14     that there were other classrooms as well.  As to the area itself, I was

15     able to observe it on the next morning when we came out of the ditch, and

16     also when we reached the village, because we were about 150 or 200 metres

17     away from that spot, so I could see the whole area, and the whole area,

18     the whole location, was filled with dead bodies."

19             First of all, sir, do you stand by this selection of your prior

20     testimony from the Krstic case as being both truthful and accurate as to

21     this event such that you would so testify again today subject to the

22     solemn declaration?

23        A.   Yes.  It is correct, and I would always testify as such.

24        Q.   And from this, sir, is it accurate that your only fixed guess was

25     that there were 600 people in the three classrooms on your floor, and you

Page 12555

 1     basically were assuming that there were the same number of people on the

 2     ground floor but you don't have any independent verification of those

 3     figures?

 4        A.   This is not any kind of estimate.  I fully stand behind that.

 5     The school was full.  I can guarantee that all the six classrooms were

 6     full and held at least 200 people each.  Are you thinking that this is a

 7     lie?  Are you trying to draw me out in that way?

 8        Q.   No, sir.  I'm trying to understand your sworn testimony under

 9     oath.  And I'd ask you now again:  Where you say in your -- in this sworn

10     testimony that you say, "... I believe the same number of people would

11     have been on the ground floor, and I believe there are other classrooms

12     as well," can you tell me, can you confirm for me, that there were other

13     classrooms?  How many classrooms were there?

14        A.   I said a number of times, as I was running up those stairs

15     I could see three classrooms on the ground floor as well.  The doors were

16     open.  They were full.  And the same thing was on the first floor.  There

17     were three more classrooms, and I assert this with 100 per cent

18     certainty.  I cannot say anything other than this on this matter.  There

19     were at least 200 people in my classroom, and they were at least 200

20     probably in all the other classrooms.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, from the time period of the declaration of

22     Srebrenica as a demilitarised zone and the events in July of 1995, can

23     you tell me, if you know, sir, how many ethnic Serbs that you know of

24     remained living in -- within the enclave, that is within the Army of BiH

25     controlled territory in Srebrenica enclave?

Page 12556

 1        A.   I don't know.  I didn't really keep any data on that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give a guess?  Were there many, were there

 3     very little Serbs remaining?  Once Srebrenica was declared a

 4     demilitarised zone and the events in July, were there many?  Were there

 5     almost none?  Could you give us an indication?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there were not many in

 7     the town.  There were never any Serbs in my local community anyway, so I

 8     cannot really speak of any data.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.  By the way the Chamber

10     believed or assumed on the basis of what you said yesterday that you

11     would finish in 20 minutes.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, and I have intended to do that and

13     I have a few more questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Twenty minutes since the beginning?  I think we are

15     now at approximately 35, I don't know exactly but please proceed and try

16     to finish before the break.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   The villages we mentioned earlier of Osmace, Glogova and

19     Kamenica, how far are these villages located from Srebrenica town itself?

20        A.   Approximately 30 kilometres.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I thank you for answered my questions.  I have

22     no further questions for you at this time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

24             Mr. Traldi, any need to re-examine the witness?

25             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour, briefly.  I should be done by the

Page 12557

 1     break.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 4        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

 5        A.   Good morning.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now, first, Mr. Ivetic suggested to you that there were some

 7     inconsistencies in your previous statements and testimonies.  How many

 8     previous cases have you testified in?

 9        A.   Three previously, and this is the fourth.

10        Q.   And can you remember how many statements you've signed?

11        A.   Many, it's hard to remember the exact number.

12        Q.   Would you agree with me that you might have signed as many as ten

13     statements including both those given to the Bosnian authorities and to

14     this Tribunal?

15        A.   Yes, perhaps more.

16        Q.   And were many of those given in quick succession immediately

17     after the events described in your evidence?

18        A.   Yes.  The one of the 19th of July that I provided was right away,

19     actually it was the next day.  I came to the free territory on the 18th

20     from the woods.  I was in the woods for 10 days without food and then

21     immediately the following day, I gave this statement.  Well, I believe

22     that there probably were some omissions there.

23        Q.   And do you confirm that the evidence you've given here, both in

24     your testimony and in the statement that you reviewed with its

25     corrections, is true and accurate to the best of your recollection?

Page 12558

 1        A.   Yes.  Everything that I saw in the statements here and everything

 2     that I stated here is correct.  I state decisively that it is all correct

 3     and that I could not say anything other.

 4        Q.   Next, sir, I want to turn to a couple of the topics that

 5     Mr. Ivetic discussed with you this morning.  First, he asked you about

 6     Serb soldiers who called out people from particular villages from the

 7     Petkovci school.  Do you remember that question?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, from the school in Petkovci, correct, yes.  I remember

 9     that question.  That's the man who put the question to me.

10        Q.   Now --

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I believe this was in closed session

12     upon the insistence of the Prosecutor.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, that was a result of particular names

14     which I haven't mentioned, and I've referred generally to Serb soldiers

15     calling out people from particular villages.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Then, Your Honours, my questions and the witness's

17     testimony should also be in public so the full record is transparent.  I

18     mean, I don't know how to do this.

19             MR. TRALDI:  We can address that with the Defence later.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, make an application to change the status

21     of parts of the transcript, rather than showing irritation.  Please

22     proceed.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Sir, I want to ask about the people taken from the school to the

25     dam.  Was it only people from particular villages who were taken from

Page 12559

 1     Petkovci school to the Petkovci Dam?

 2        A.   No.  These were people who were all taken away, who happened to

 3     be at the school.  All of those who had been brought to the school in

 4     trucks, they were all taken to the dam and killed.

 5        Q.   Next, sir, Mr. Ivetic and the Presiding Judge asked you about the

 6     basis for your estimate of the number of people killed at Petkovci Dam

 7     and I have two specific questions in this respect:  First, during direct

 8     examination, you testified that you were familiar with a ULT 160 loader,

 9     the type of machine you saw loading bodies, and that you saw it loading

10     bodies for the entire day after the massacre and still loading bodies

11     when you left.  Is your estimate of the number of people killed at the

12     dam also based on this information?

13        A.   Yes, correct.  Also my estimate was based on this information.  I

14     know this machine very well.  The loader, it's a construction machine,

15     and we could see the tractor, perhaps you can put ten, 15 to 20 bodies on

16     the tractor and it would come back every 15 or 20 minutes.  So then if we

17     calculate how many times it could make that back-and-forth trip

18     throughout the day, you will see.  And then they did not finish, they

19     were still continuing with this when we left that location.  So we had

20     enough time, the whole day, to estimate the number of people who could

21     have been there at that plateau.

22             MR. TRALDI:  And if the court officer could please call up

23     Exhibit P1552.

24        Q.   And you described yesterday that the execution site was that

25     large area in the foreground where we can see some people standing; is

Page 12560

 1     that right?

 2        A.   Yes, correct, that area.

 3        Q.   And was that entire area covered with bodies when you could see

 4     it?

 5        A.   Yes.  That whole -- that whole area was covered with bodies.  And

 6     you can look to see how far we were in the woods, it's perhaps 200 metres

 7     as the crow flies, and we were able to watch the whole day that this was

 8     going on.  And so I do state that that's how it was with those people.

 9        Q.   And how close to each other were they?

10        A.   Let's say that they were on top of each other.  I mean, I was

11     lying beneath two bodies so then you can work out how many layers of

12     bodies on top of one another there were.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I have no further questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the questions in the re-examination triggered

17     any need for further questions, Mr. Ivetic?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Perhaps.  It depends on the Prosecution's position.

19     In redirect they have now raised ten statements signed by the witness.

20     I invite the Prosecution to stipulate that of those ten witnesses [sic]

21     only four and the 92 ter statement mention General Mladic's speech and

22     that the four I identified are the ones which the Prosecution confirmed

23     do not contain the same text as to the speech as in the 92 ter statement.

24     If that's the case then I don't have questions for this witness.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, as with the matter last night, I think

Page 12561

 1     that's appropriately addressed between the parties and I can meet with

 2     Mr. Ivetic during the break about it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That seems to be a better solution than to go

 4     through ten statements in detail.

 5             Mr. Ivetic, is that agreeable to you to resolve the matter?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  That is satisfactory.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Witness RM253, we have no further questions

 8     for you.  This, therefore, concludes your testimony in this Court.

 9     I would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague

10     and for having answered all the questions that were put to you, whether

11     these were questions put to you by the parties or by the Bench, and

12     I wish you a safe return home again.  Once the curtains are down, and

13     once we are in closed session, you may follow the usher.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours, I would

15     like to just say one sentence, if I may, Your Honours.  I would like to

16     thank you for my own opportunity to participate and contribute to these

17     proceedings.  And I hope that there will be justice, that justice will be

18     done in these matters.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, it's appreciated that you support the

20     cause of justice, as I take it all of us do in this courtroom.

21             You may follow the usher.

22                           [Closed session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12562











11 Pages 12562-12563 redacted. Closed session.















Page 12564

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Rules require that you make a solemn declaration at the

12     beginning of your testimony.  The text is now handed out to you.  May

13     I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  ZORAN MALINIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Malinic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Malinic, before I give the floor to

21     Mr. Vanderpuye to examine you, I'd like to draw your attention to

22     Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, which the gist of

23     which is that you can -- you may object to making any statement which

24     might tend to incriminate yourself.  Now, we then could compel you to

25     answer the question, but compelled in this way any evidence should not be

Page 12565

 1     used in subsequent proceedings, apart from if you would not tell the

 2     truth, then of course it could be used for proceedings for false

 3     testimony.

 4             I would like to inform you about this legal provision.  I think

 5     in earlier testimony, you have told the Court then that you understood

 6     it.  Do you understand it still?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I do.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Vanderpuye will now examine you.  You'll

 9     find Mr. Vanderpuye to your right.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, and good morning again,

11     Mr. President, Your Honours.

12                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

13        Q.   And good morning to you, Witness.  Before we get started I just

14     wanted to remind you, since it's been a bit of time since you testified

15     last, just to try to keep your voice up and speak a little bit more

16     slowly than you would normally so that the interpreters have a chance to

17     translate everything that you say and I say so that everyone can

18     understand your evidence.

19             So let's get started.  Do you recall testifying in the case of

20     Prosecutor versus Tolimir on the 8th and 9th of June, 2011?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And was the testimony that you provided in those proceedings

23     truthful?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review the entirety of that

Page 12566

 1     testimony before coming to court here today?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And in reviewing the testimony, did you listen to it in an audio

 4     recording?

 5        A.   I only heard the recording or listened to the recording of the

 6     testimony.  I didn't have an opportunity to review it in the form of a

 7     transcript.

 8        Q.   Having listened to your testimony, can you confirm, does it

 9     fairly and accurately reflect what you said at the time in those

10     proceedings and what you would say here if you were examined and asked

11     the same questions?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President I would offer at this time the

14     witness's previous testimony that's tendered pursuant to our application

15     under Rule 92 ter together with the associated exhibits.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, usually first -- the first questions

17     are usually to establish who is before us, who the witness is.  So before

18     he confirms his previous testimony, we would like to know who he is.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'll happily do that, and I apologise,

20     Mr. President.

21        Q.   Could you please state your name for the record, Witness?

22        A.   Zoran Malinic.

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections against admission of the previous

25     testimony, the transcript of previous testimony in the Tolimir case?

Page 12567

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  May I have 65 ter number, please?  Is it 28979?

 4     Therefore document 28979 receives number P1555, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P1555 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I have also a number of

 7     associated exhibits that I would like to tender at this time, or if you

 8     prefer I can do that later as well.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps if you first examine the witness, then we'll

10     see what we will see in passing and see what remains as associated

11     exhibits to be tendered.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have a summary

13     I would like to read into the record.  It should be relatively brief.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  In July 1995 Major Zoran Malinic was the

16     commander of the military police battalion of the

17     65th Motorised Protection Regiment, an independent unit of the VRS Main

18     Staff.  The regiment was commanded by Colonel Milomir Savcic, who

19     reported to the commander of the Main Staff and General Mladic.  Malinic

20     in turn reported to Colonel Savcic and the regiment's Chief of Staff in

21     July 1995 was Colonel Jovo Jazic.

22             On 13 July 1995, as Bosnian Serb forces blocked the path of the

23     column of Muslims fleeing Srebrenica through the woods, the regiment

24     began to receive -- that is the military police battalion of the regiment

25     began to receive large numbers of prisoners.  In the early morning of

Page 12568

 1     13 July, Major Malinic received information that a large group of -- or

 2     large groups of Muslims had been crossing the stretch of road between

 3     Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje.  He dispatched men to look into the

 4     situation and they soon returned with about three Muslim prisoners and

 5     reported that a much larger group was in the area.

 6             These first prisoners were detained at the

 7     military police battalion's barracks located in a school in Nova Kasaba.

 8     Later, the situation grew more intense as hundreds of Bosnian Muslim men

 9     began surrendering or were captured trying to cross the road.

10     Major Malinic called the Main Staff at Crna Rijeka, he spoke to his

11     superiors requesting reinforcement.  Units of the

12     67th Communications Regiment and a part of the MP Battalion's APC unit

13     were dispatched by Colonel Jazic.

14             The growing numbers of prisoners were detained at the Nova Kasaba

15     football pitch located some 300 metres away from the MP Battalion

16     barracks, and they were guarded by its members.  According to

17     Major Malinic, the number of prisoners reached as many as 1200.  During

18     their detention at the football pitch, one prisoner was killed.  Malinic

19     said he heard about the incident and that it was in self-defence, that is

20     the result of a prisoner attacking a soldier.

21             Major Malinic arrived at the football pitch for the first time

22     that day after he was notified of General Mladic's arrival.  Mladic

23     addressed the prisoners.  Although members of the MP Battalion had been

24     instructed to list the prisoners, the process was interrupted when Mladic

25     arrived.  Although Colonel Keserovic, Dragomir Keserovic stated that

Page 12569

 1     Malinic later told him that Mladic said that there was no need to make

 2     lists because the prisoners would be going home, Malinic stated that he

 3     could not recall what he had said during this conversation.  Late that

 4     afternoon, the prisoners were loaded onto trucks and buses and

 5     transported to Bratunac.  Major Malinic had no further contact with them.

 6             During the course of 13 July, Major Malinic also received

 7     Lieutenant Egbers and a small group of DutchBat soldiers after they had

 8     been stopped at gunpoint and their equipment taken by Serb soldiers, when

 9     returning to Potocari from monitoring the convoy of civilians transferred

10     to Kladanj.

11             A complaint about the incident was made, which Major Malinic

12     reported to Colonel Jazic.  Malinic believes it "highly probable" that

13     Beara came - that is Colonel Beara - came to the barracks in response.

14     According to Malinic, DutchBat soldiers remained at the regiment's -- or,

15     rather, the military police battalion's barracks for their own safety for

16     two or three days before being allowed to return to their command in

17     Potocari.  Their vehicles were not released.  To his recollection, on or

18     about 16 or 17 July, Major Malinic's units engaged in an operation

19     involving a sweep of the terrain which also involved units of the

20     Bratunac Brigade.  Colonel Keserovic was responsible for co-ordinating

21     this operation.  Malinic stated that he received no information about the

22     capture of prisoners during the sweep and that he was unaware of any mass

23     graves subsequently found in the immediate area of Nova Kasaba.

24             That concludes my summary, Mr. President.  I have a --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, if you allow me one short comment on

Page 12570

 1     your summary, you said although Keserovic stated this and this and this,

 2     the witness -- the appropriate way of summarising the testimony of this

 3     witness, as I saw it in the -- is to say that the witness has no

 4     recollection of Keserovic telling him A, B and C.  What another witness

 5     stated is not part of the summary of this witness.  That is already

 6     starting a bit of a debate which is not appropriately done when

 7     summarising the witness statement.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Just to be clear, Mr. President, the witness

 9     doesn't deny that the conversation occurred.  He just doesn't recall what

10     he said during the conversation.  So it's not debatable whether Keserovic

11     said it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I wasn't seeking any further comments.  I told you

13     what would have been the appropriate way of summarising the testimony of

14     this witness.

15             I'll tell you at a later stage how you could have introduced that

16     still in the appropriate way.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I appreciate that, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  For the time being, please proceed.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:

20        Q.   Let me just ask you -- begin by asking you a couple of questions

21     about your background.  Since you last testified before the Tribunal in

22     2011, can you tell us what you've been doing now?  I don't want to you

23     describe specifically where you work but just the type of work that

24     you're engaged in would be helpful.

25        A.   Nothing has changed compared to the last time.  It's just that

Page 12571

 1     the intensity of the specific work I do is less.  I am a retired military

 2     serviceman otherwise.

 3        Q.   And what rank did you retire with?

 4        A.   As a lieutenant-colonel.

 5        Q.   Would you prefer that I address you as lieutenant-colonel during

 6     the course of your examination today?

 7        A.   Since I'm retired, I should properly be addressed as

 8     lieutenant-colonel in retirement, but of course, you can just address me

 9     by my name.

10        Q.   Very well.  And just before I jump ahead to 1995, I want to ask

11     you just a few questions about your prior assignment as a deputy

12     commander of the 5th Army Sabotage Detachment in 1992, and that's

13     referred to in your transcript of evidence at page 15299.  First, can you

14     tell us to what unitary level you were assigned in this sabotage

15     detachment?

16        A.   If February or March of 1992, I was appointed to the post of

17     deputy commander of the sabotage detachment of the 5th Army.

18        Q.   It was a unit of the command of the 5th Army?

19        A.   It was a unit which was part of the 65th Protection Regiment of

20     the 2nd Army -- or, actually, of the 5th Army.  With the withdrawal or

21     the transfer of the unit from Zagreb to Sarajevo, that same unit

22     continued to operate but this time within the army structure that moved

23     to Sarajevo.

24        Q.   And within the structure of the sabotage detachment of which you

25     were deputy commander, was it governed by rules that pre-existed, for

Page 12572

 1     example, in the JNA?

 2        A.   In February 1992, it was the Yugoslav People's Army.  At the time

 3     the unit was listed as part of the JNA.  It was February or March 1992.

 4        Q.   To whom was your unit immediately subordinate?

 5        A.   The unit was subordinated to the commander of the

 6     65th Motorised Protection Regiment.

 7        Q.   And did the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment maintain a

 8     sabotage unit through and into 1995?

 9        A.   With the departure of the officers who were born in Serbia in May

10     1992, the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was no longer part of the

11     Yugoslav People's Army.  Rather, it stayed behind within the VRS which

12     was set up.  The sabotage detachment continued to be active.  It was on

13     the 2nd May of 1992 that many officers were killed at Skenderija,

14     actually it was five officers and ten soldiers.  Most of them hailed from

15     Serbia.  As the officers and soldiers left Bosnia in May 1992, the

16     detachment had me, as commanding officer, and a dozen soldiers.  The

17     detachment ceased to exist and it was only in December 1992 that the

18     formation of the sabotage detachment of the

19     65th Motorised Protection Regiment began.

20        Q.   Okay.  In your position as an officer with the sabotage

21     detachment, as you indicated in 1992, were you aware of the rules or

22     instructions governing land-based diversionary operations, that is

23     sabotage operations?

24        A.   The sabotage detachment, which wasn't part of the

25     65th Motorised Protection Regiment but of the 5th Army, I was a member of

Page 12573

 1     it between 1984 and 1987 as platoon commander.  Then I took up a

 2     different duty.  The sabotage detachment of the 5th Army which was

 3     immediately subordinated to the 5th Army command joined the

 4     65th Motorised Protection Regiment as soon as it was established which

 5     was, I believe, in 1988.  It therefore came under the regiment.  I was

 6     quite knowledgeable when it came to the execution of diversionary or

 7     sabotage actions and the assignments that are normally carried out by a

 8     sabotage detachment.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  But my question is were you aware of the rules

10     or instructions governing land-based diversionary operations in 1992?  I

11     know you say you're knowledgeable about that but I just want to know if

12     you were aware of the rules which applied, first, and then I'll ask my

13     second question after.

14        A.   You're referring to rules.  All the rules that were in force in

15     the Yugoslav People's Army were adopted by the Army of Republika Srpska,

16     if we are discussing the period between May 1992 and the later period.

17     Now, yes, I was familiar with the regulations in force.

18        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Having been a ranking officer in this sabotage

19     unit, as you've described it, can you tell us were the actions of that

20     unit carried out against civilians or civilian objects, to your

21     knowledge?

22        A.   If we are discussing 1992, no.

23        Q.   Is that something that is permissible under the rules which

24     applied, that you've referred to, that were adopted by the VRS and

25     applied throughout the war?

Page 12574

 1        A.   Against civilians and the civilian population, no.

 2        Q.   When you arrived in Crna Rijeka in 1992, I think you said in your

 3     evidence that you arrived there even before the command staff, that is

 4     the officers of the command of the Main Staff at transcript page 15300.

 5     So was it at that time that you first met the officers of the command of

 6     the Main Staff, the VRS?

 7        A.   For the most part, yes.

 8        Q.   Would it have been at that time that you first met

 9     General Mladic, General Milovanovic, General Gvero?

10        A.   I think I met General Mladic only in June 1992, I met

11     General Milovanovic in May, and I knew General Gvero from 1977 because he

12     was the headmaster of my school.

13        Q.   And would it have been at this -- or during this period of time,

14     that is May or June of 1992, that you first met then-Colonel Tolimir?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And what about Colonel Salapura?

17        A.   I knew Colonel Salapura from back in Zagreb, or that part of

18     Croatia where we were.  I can't exactly pinpoint the location and time

19     when we met first.

20        Q.   You mentioned also in your statement that Ljubisa Beara came to

21     Crna Rijeka later in 1992.  Do you remember approximately when in 1992

22     that happened?

23        A.   I think that it was December.  I only got to know him in

24     December 1992.

25        Q.   Is that -- meaning is that the time that you met him first?

Page 12575

 1        A.   Met him and was introduced to him for the first time.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And just so we have it clear in the record, in what

 3     position was Colonel Beara, Naval Captain Beara, in the Main Staff, when

 4     you met him back in 1992?

 5        A.   I think his position was chief of security of the Main Staff.

 6        Q.   And what about Colonel Salapura, in that same period?

 7        A.   Colonel Salapura was the chief of the intelligence service of the

 8     Main Staff.

 9        Q.   All right.  I just want to turn your attention now, if I could,

10     to 1995.  And just briefly, in your transcript of evidence in the Tolimir

11     case you indicated that the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was a unit

12     of the Main Staff and that it was intended to provide security for the

13     Main Staff and the rear command post of the Main Staff.

14             First, can you tell us specifically what Main Staff facilities

15     the MP Battalion was required to secure, if there were any in addition to

16     the command post of the rear command post?

17        A.   Well, all the features which were present at the command post; in

18     fact, they were two buildings.  Well, the entire command post.  And when

19     I say the command post, in addition to the Main Staff, you also had the

20     67th Communications Regiment forces and the MP Battalion.  All of them

21     were headquartered in the area of Crna Rijeka.  There was also an

22     underground installation which was on higher ground compared to these

23     other installations at Crna Rijeka.  We provided security for the rear

24     command post of the Main Staff, which was stationed at Han Pijesak.  So

25     those were the installations that the MP Battalion provided security for.

Page 12576

 1        Q.   Let me just clarify one thing.  With respect to the rear command

 2     post, first, does that refer to a logistics centre or -- or if you could

 3     just tell us what that refers to, what facilities it refers to?

 4        A.   The rear logistics command post was not in Crna Rijeka.  Most of

 5     it, the greater part of it, or in its entirety, it was located in the

 6     Han Pijesak facilities.  There was a hotel in Han Pijesak and one or two

 7     more facilities next to that hotel.

 8        Q.   Do you recall if the rear command post was located near the

 9     Han Pijesak police station, or where it was in relation to the police

10     station?

11        A.   Very close to the police station.  Han Pijesak is a small town,

12     and it's all very close to each other.

13        Q.   I'm just going to ask you for just a little bit more precision on

14     this.  Can you tell us what you mean by "very close to each other," maybe

15     in terms of metres or kilometres?

16        A.   There is about a hundred metres between the police station and

17     the rear command post.

18        Q.   You indicated in your testimony at transcript page 15302 that one

19     of the tasks of your MP Battalion was to provide security for entitled

20     members of the Main Staff.  Can I take that to mean that -- or, rather,

21     can you tell us if that included General Mladic and other members of the

22     command, of the VRS command?

23        A.   This primarily referred to the commander of the Main Staff,

24     General Mladic, and there was also a section from the company --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear which one.

Page 12577

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- whose task throughout the war

 2     was to be with the commander and to provide security for him in place and

 3     during movement.  There was also General Milovanovic.  He also had

 4     security, but it was per request depending on his activities.  And the

 5     chief of security --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You earlier referred to a section from the company.

 7     And then the interpreters could not catch the name of that company.

 8     Could you repeat that?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a section from the

10     anti-terrorist company.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Was that part of the 65th Protection Regiment or was that part of

13     a different unit?

14        A.   It was part of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.  I think

15     that I was clear.  It's a section from the anti-terrorist company that

16     was part of the MP Battalion.  That squad or the soldiers and the

17     officers from that squad, were not always the same, but depending on the

18     requirements, the number would be higher or lower depending on the task

19     that they were being assigned.

20        Q.   Are you familiar with someone by the name of Puhalo,

21     Branislav Puhalo?

22        A.   Branislav Puhalo was a sergeant first class.  He was an officer

23     of the Military Police Battalion, and he was the commander of the squad

24     entrusted with security for General Mladic.

25        Q.   Was he subordinate to you?

Page 12578

 1        A.   By establishment, it was subordinated to the commander of the

 2     platoon, or the anti-terrorist company.  I was the third in line superior

 3     to Branislav Puhalo.

 4        Q.   Okay.  To your knowledge, did Branislav Puhalo provide, for lack

 5     of a better term, close protection to General Mladic during July 1995?

 6        A.   The entire squad had the task of providing security for

 7     General Mladic.  Their commanding officer, the commander of the squad,

 8     knew what his assignment was, with the proviso that General Mladic,

 9     depending on the situation that he was in, could order or to say what the

10     squad needed to do in a specific situation, in a given situation, because

11     you could not abide by any rule or regulation.  You could not predict all

12     the situations that the person being protected could find themselves in.

13     I don't know if at that point he was providing close protection or not.

14     He probably was.  I really could not say whether he was or wasn't because

15     I wasn't with them in order to be able to say that.

16        Q.   All right.  I just wanted to know if you had knowledge of that,

17     and you've answered that.

18             Besides Branislav Puhalo, can you recall the name of any other

19     member of this squad that you refer to that was responsible for

20     protecting General Mladic or other members of the Main Staff of the VRS

21     in July 1995 in particular?  And if you don't recall, just say so, that's

22     fine, and then we can move ahead.

23        A.   The only commanding officer was Branislav Puhalo.  The others

24     were soldiers who, because of the circumstances or particular

25     assignments, would rotate in that squad.  So I really couldn't say who

Page 12579

 1     was with General Mladic in July 1995.

 2        Q.   Okay.  In your testimony, you noted that the immediate superior

 3     to the 65th Protection Regiment was General Mladic, commander of the

 4     Main Staff.  That's at transcript page 15305.

 5             What I want to ask you is:  What was the relationship between

 6     General Mladic then and Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic, the commander of your

 7     unit?

 8        A.   I think that it was a relationship between a superior officer and

 9     a subordinate.

10        Q.   Meaning that General Savcic was directly subordinated to

11     General Mladic or he was one or two steps below General Mladic?  Can you

12     elaborate on that a little bit?

13        A.   Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic at that time was directly subordinated

14     to General Mladic according to the rule of subordination and singleness

15     of command.

16        Q.   Do you recall if Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic received orders from

17     General Mladic with respect to the disposition of the regiment's military

18     police units?  Do you recall what the situation was?

19        A.   I didn't know that Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic received any orders

20     regarding the disposition of the MP units.  When I previously testified,

21     I explained the disposition of the units in July 1995, the disposition of

22     the Military Police Battalion, where they were and what were their tasks

23     in June and July 1995.  I'm not aware if General Mladic issued the order

24     for the use of the military police in July 1995.

25        Q.   What about at any time other than July 1995?  I don't think I was

Page 12580

 1     specific to July 1995 in my question.  Are you aware of General - rather,

 2     now general, but previously lieutenant-colonel - Savcic receiving orders

 3     from General Mladic with respect to the disposition of the regiment's

 4     Military Police Battalion?

 5        A.   I think that Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic received orders for the

 6     execution of certain assignments, that the regiment was supposed to carry

 7     out, and that Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic decided which unit from the

 8     regiment would be engaged on the execution of certain kinds of

 9     assignments.  Probably the main body of the force of the regiment was the

10     battalion, so for the most part, 95 per cent of the assignments, whether

11     combat assignments of defensive or assault nature, the MP Battalion was

12     engaged on top of its duties in security in relation to the Main Staff.

13        Q.   Are you aware that Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic testified in the

14     Popovic case in September 2007?

15        A.   As far as I know, he only testified in the case against

16     General Tolimir.

17        Q.   Okay.  Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic testified in the Popovic case on

18     12 September 2007, and at transcript page 15240, lines 2 through 4, he

19     gave the following answer to the following question.  I just want to ask

20     you about that but let me read it to you first.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have a 65 ter number so that

22     we can follow what --

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I don't have it.  It's a public transcript, I

24     don't have it as a 65 ter exhibit.  Perhaps I can ask for the assistance

25     of the Registrar to bring it up but it's very brief.  It's only two lines

Page 12581

 1     really.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the shorter it is, the more important the

 3     context may be.  That's usually --

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Could be.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If there is any way to have it on our screens,

 6     I would prefer that, but if not, let's proceed.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   At transcript page 15240, lines 2 through 4, 12 September 2007,

10     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic gave the following answer to the following

11     question:

12             "Q.  And with respect to the disposition of the military police

13     units from whom did you receive your orders?

14             "A.  From the commander of the Main Staff."

15             What I wanted to ask you about that is, first, whether or not

16     that comports with your recollection of what the situation was within the

17     regiment at any point from 1992 all the way up to the end of the war.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Ms. Stewart advises me that she can show it on

19     Sanction.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's possible, we would like to have a look at

21     it.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President, it's lines 2 through 4.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please continue.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   I think my question to you, sir, was whether or not this comports

Page 12582

 1     with your recollection of what the situation was at any point during the

 2     time that you were the Military Police Battalion commander with the

 3     65th Motorised Protection Regiment?

 4        A.   Yes.  I understand.  But there was a break because of the

 5     president.  Well, let's just clarify what you mean when you say the

 6     "disposition."  Do you mean the deployment and the security of the

 7     battalion, or do you mean the actual engagement of the battalion on the

 8     execution of certain assignments?  What do you mean when you say

 9     "disposition"?

10        Q.   Fair question.  Does -- let me ask you this -- let me ask it this

11     way:  Is this statement of General Savcic's - Lieutenant-Colonel

12     Savcic's - is it true in any respect with -- concerning the military

13     police units?  Disposition meaning engagement of units, or disposition

14     meaning security and equipping of units.  In any way is it true or

15     accurate?

16        A.   You mentioned a couple of facts, a couple of different things.

17     If we are talking about the engagement of the unit and the use of the

18     unit, the regiment commander decides where he would engage certain units

19     from the regiment.  General Mladic has the right to say that for the

20     execution of a certain task, a certain type of unit should be engaged.

21     As for equipping the unit and the professional part of the execution of

22     an assignment, this was something that was the chief of security of the

23     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska was in charge with.

24     Probably - I say probably because I was not present for that -

25     General Mladic consulted his assistant, the commander for intelligence

Page 12583

 1     and security, when the battalion was engaged or the professional part of

 2     the battalion was engaged in the period from 1992 to 1995.

 3        Q.   All right.  I think you've answered my question.  And just for

 4     the record, the assistant commander for intelligence and security, that

 5     would have been Colonel and then General Tolimir; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   As General Mladic was the immediate superior of the

 8     65th Motorised Protection Regiment as a unit of the Main Staff, was he

 9     the immediate superior of other units of the Main Staff, as well, to your

10     knowledge?

11        A.   Other than the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment, there was also

12     the 67th Communications Regiment which was also directly subordinated to

13     the commander of the Main Staff.  And I'm not really familiar or I don't

14     know in detail if there were any other units in the same situation.

15     There were HQ units which were immediately subordinated at the command

16     post.  There was the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment and there was the

17     67th Communications Regiment, those two.

18        Q.   What about the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

19        A.   The 10th Sabotage Detachment was formed in 1994, I think, and it

20     seems that that was also directly subordinated to General Mladic.  The

21     professional officer in charge of that was Colonel Salapura.

22        Q.   All right.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'm having a little trouble

24     seeing the clock.  I just wonder how much we have before the break.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  A couple of minutes.

Page 12584

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   You indicated in your previous testimony, and that's at

 3     transcript page 15311, that on several occasions you went to receive

 4     tasks directly from the Main Staff commander with

 5     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic.  Do you recall whether General Mladic directly

 6     issued orders to you separately and apart from your going to him or

 7     receiving those instructions through Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic?  If you

 8     don't remember, that's fine, too.  Just let me know.

 9        A.   I cannot remember General Mladic issuing direct assignments.

10     When -- perhaps when Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic was wounded, maybe that

11     was one occasion, when we were in the Sarajevo sector in 1994,

12     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic was in the hospital receiving medical treatment

13     for his wounding, and then I was in charge of that part of the unit, so

14     that was a difficult situation at that time for the

15     Army of Republika Srpska in that sector.  And that was when

16     General Mladic, when I was heading one part of the unit, not just the

17     battalion but the Protection Regiment, he gave me certain assignments,

18     even though at that time I was subordinated directly or attached to the

19     command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

20        Q.   Do you remember what you said regarding this particular issue in

21     your Tolimir testimony?  And let me ask it this way:  What you said was,

22     and this is at transcript page 15311, it's the last line through 15312, I

23     believe line 2, you said that, when you were the main commander, rather:

24             "When I was the main commander responsible for carrying out

25     certain tasks in these cases I received orders directly from the

Page 12585

 1     commander of the Main Staff."

 2             Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not you

 3     received orders directly from General Mladic?

 4        A.   I have just told you about one such occasion.  It's possible that

 5     there were other occasions, other situations, when

 6     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic was absent from the unit and that I was the

 7     most senior officer at the command post of the regiment, and that was

 8     when I would receive tasks.  For the most part, I would contact

 9     General Milovanovic more about issues relating to security and other

10     matters.

11        Q.   All right.

12        A.   I was more frequently in contact with General Milovanovic about

13     these matters rather than with General Mladic.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, now would be a great time for the

16     pause.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will first turn into closed session so that

18     the witness can leave the courtroom and we will resume after the break to

19     start with in closed session and then move into open session again.

20                           [Closed session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12586

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to

17     you, Your Honours, everyone.

18        Q.   Sir, I was just about to go to a different area and I want to ask

19     you just a few questions about 12th of July, 1995.  First, I just want to

20     find out from you, from whom you received information concerning the

21     movement of the column that was fleeing the Srebrenica enclave, if you

22     can recall.

23        A.   Information concerning the movement of major forces my way or in

24     the direction of the location where I was reached me in the evening

25     hours.  I got it from General Milovanovic [as interpreted], who was the

Page 12587

 1     commander of the Drina Corps at the time.

 2        Q.   I just want to clarify something for the record which has you

 3     saying that General Milovanovic was the commander of the Drina Corps at

 4     the time.

 5        A.   Zivanovic.

 6        Q.   Thanks for that clarification.  Can you tell us what did you in

 7     response to the information you received from General Zivanovic on the

 8     evening of 12 July?

 9        A.   At the Nova Kasaba barracks, there were 20-odd soldiers and

10     officers from the battalion present.  I informed my own superior, or

11     actually I got in contact with the command post at Kuka,

12     Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic was present there -- or rather of the regiment,

13     the command post of the regiment, and there there was the Colonel Jazic,

14     who responded on behalf of the regiment.  And as for the logistics unit,

15     the canine unit, and the MP trainers unit, I informed all of them with a

16     view to reinforcing or stepping up the level of security provided for the

17     location where I was.

18        Q.   Did you deploy units to the road between Nova Kasaba and

19     Konjevic Polje on 12th of July?

20        A.   No.  On the 12th of July, I provided security for the building

21     where I was, that's to say the school, the repeater on the hill

22     overlooking the school included.  So that's the only part of the job that

23     I could do with the soldiers that I had at my disposal.

24        Q.   I want to show you P724, if I could have that in e-court, please.

25     I'm quite sure you've not seen this document before but let us know if

Page 12588

 1     you recognise it.  It's a report, as you can see, concerning the combat

 2     engagement of the Special Police Brigade and other police forces in

 3     Operation Srebrenica 95, and you see the period from 11 July to 21 July,

 4     and what I'm interested in is found at page 3 in the English, and it's

 5     found at page 3 in the B/C/S.  Specifically, if we can get there -- what

 6     I'd like to do, actually, first is just so that we have some orientation,

 7     we can go to page 2 in the English so we can see what day we are talking

 8     about in the report, and also in the B/C/S, and we'll see in both we

 9     should see 12 July, and then can go to page 3 in both documents, and we

10     should be able to see what I'll refer you to.

11             Are we able to get the B/C/S on the screen or -- all right.

12             In the B/C/S we have to go to page 2 in e-court, which should be

13     ERN ending 842, so that we can see the date.  Okay.  There you can see at

14     the bottom of the screen in your language that we are going to talk about

15     12 July 1995, the same in the English, we can see that and that's

16     referred to as St. Peter's day.  Now if we go to both page 3 in the

17     English and the B/C/S, I want to ask you about the disposition of your

18     units.

19             Okay.  I think we've got it now.  I want to refer you to the

20     paragraph that starts with the 2nd Special Police Detachment of the

21     1st Company of the Zvornik PJP.  Do you see that?  It's about two

22     paragraphs up from the date 13 July 1995.  Do you see the paragraph, sir,

23     that I'm referring to?

24        A.   Do you mean this along the Kravica-Sandici stretch?

25        Q.   Maybe it will be easier if I just read it in and you can tell me

Page 12589

 1     about it.  What it says here is, and this is a report by

 2     Ljubisa Borovcanin, who was the deputy commander of the Special Police

 3     Brigade of the Republika Srpska MUP, and what he reports here on the

 4     12th of July 1995 is he says:

 5             "The segment from Nova Kasaba to Konjevic Polje was covered by

 6     elements of the Protection Regiment."

 7             You'll see that right above the numbers 3.000, 4.000 enemy

 8     soldiers.  It's right in the middle of the page in the English and it's

 9     about two-thirds of the way down the page in your language.

10             Do you recall deploying members of your battalion to the segment

11     of road from Nova Kasaba to Konjevic Polje, covering that area

12     on 12 July 1995?  And if you don't, that's fine too.

13        A.   No.  On the 12th of July, the MP Battalion didn't have a single

14     assignment related to the activities in and around Srebrenica along this

15     axis and in this sector.

16        Q.   Are you aware of any other units of the Protection Regiment in

17     that location on that date?

18        A.   Not a single unit of the Protection Regiment was present along

19     that axis on that day.

20        Q.   Was -- were members of the military police battalion present at

21     that location on the following day, 13 July 1995?  And that is, just so

22     we are clear for the record, the stretch of road between Nova Kasaba and

23     Konjevic Polje.

24        A.   The MP Battalion units together with the reinforcement we

25     received from the Crna Rijeka area, it was a reinforced platoon of an

Page 12590

 1     armoured platoon, and detachment of the communications battalion took up

 2     positions from the hill overlooking the school building all the way to

 3     the area close to the Nova Kasaba-Konjevic Polje road where there is a

 4     stream.  To give you the bearings, from the detergent manufacturing

 5     factory it's about 150 or 200 metres away or some 200 to 250 metres away

 6     from the football pitch in the centre of Nova Kasaba.  So that was the

 7     disposition on the 13th of July of the MP Battalion and elements of the

 8     Communications Regiment.

 9        Q.   Where they were located was for the purpose of securing that

10     stretch of road; is that correct?

11        A.   The engagement and occupation of these positions was not with a

12     view to securing the road but to prevent the forces of the 28th Division

13     from breaking through the area from the direction of Srebrenica to --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat the name of the

15     location?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the name of the location?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The disposition of the MP Battalion

18     units on the 13th of July, 1995, stretched from the hill overlooking the

19     school through to the road between Konjevic Polje and Kasaba.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question was a bit different.  You were asked

21     to repeat the direction of the movement of the 28th Division breaking

22     through from the direction of Srebrenica to where?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Srebrenica to Tuzla.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

Page 12591

 1        Q.   Just so that we have our bearings, you've indicated a number of

 2     locations but what I'd like to know are two things primarily:  How far is

 3     it, to your recollection, from the barracks where your unit was stationed

 4     to the intersection at Konjevic Polje, just roughly?

 5        A.   Approximately three to four kilometres.

 6        Q.   And how far is it from your barracks where the MP Battalion was

 7     situated, to the Nova Kasaba football stadium or football pitch?

 8        A.   About 300 metres.

 9        Q.   Were you aware that the Drina Corps 5th Engineering Battalion was

10     stationed in Konjevic Polje on 13 July 1995, that there were units there?

11        A.   I knew that the Engineering Battalion of the Drina Corps was

12     stationed in Konjevic Polje.  Was it exactly the case on the 13th or not,

13     I don't know.  What I do know is that they had quarters where their men

14     were billeted.  At a certain point, was it 1994 or 1995, elements of my

15     unit were billeted at the same location.  It was an APC unit, because the

16     school or actually the barracks at Kasaba did not rise up to the required

17     standards for the quarters for my men who I was training at the time.

18        Q.   In the interests of time I'm just going to see if I can ask you

19     to try and be as responsive to the question as you can.  Specifically

20     I was asking you about 13 July so if you don't know where they were on

21     13 July, just let us know and I can move on to my next question.

22             Were you in contact with the Drina Corps 5th Engineering Units at

23     any point on 12 or 13 July?

24        A.   I believe that I was.  A number of soldiers had come over to

25     block the passage between the elements of the unit I was in command of

Page 12592

 1     and the unit from Zvornik which was under blockade along the stretch of

 2     road between Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje.  I don't know if I was there

 3     myself, but I do know that they came to the area to cut off or prevent

 4     elements of the 28th Division from passing through the area.

 5        Q.   When your unit began to capture or receive members of the column

 6     passing through your area, you indicated in your previous testimony that

 7     you contacted Jovo Jazic, the deputy commander of the regiment at

 8     Crna Rijeka.  Do you remember that?

 9        A.   Yes.  I informed the Chief of Staff, Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic, of

10     it because he was the only one from among the superior officers who was

11     at the Protection Regiment's post.

12        Q.   Did you speak to anybody else at the Main Staff in relation to

13     the situation that your units were facing at Nova Kasaba the morning of

14     the 13th when you spoke to or around the time you spoke to Colonel Jazic?

15        A.   It is highly possible that I spoke to the commanding officers

16     from the Main Staff that same morning of the 13th of July.

17        Q.   Who would that be, sir?

18        A.   To my knowledge at the time, from the most senior officers of the

19     Main Staff, Generals Gvero and Miletic were present at the command post.

20        Q.   Can you tell us approximately when, relative to the time that you

21     called Colonel Jazic, that you would have spoken to either or both

22     General Gvero or Miletic?

23        A.   I can't give you the exact time.  The first contact with

24     Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic took place that morning, when I found out what

25     the situation was that we were in, and I asked him to give permission for

Page 12593

 1     elements of my unit to go to the Kasaba area.  That was at around 6.30 or

 2     7.00 in the morning of the 13th.  Now, what time it was when I spoke to

 3     the officers at the Main Staff, I don't have any information about that.

 4     I can't remember what time it was.

 5        Q.   All right.  I'll just have to live with that answer.  What I want

 6     to know is when was it relative to when you called Jazic, an hour later,

 7     two hours later, five minutes later?  But if you can't remember, also

 8     just let us know so I can move on to my next question.  Can you answer

 9     the question?

10        A.   I can clarify without going too far and wide.

11     Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic was the only officer from the

12     Protection Regiment.  Now, the person in charge of security for the

13     Main Staff was practically him.  He was in command of all the forces of

14     the MP Battalion and all the other units of the Protection Regiment.  It

15     is possible that Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic said --

16        Q.   I don't mean to cut you off, but my question is very direct and

17     is very simple.  Can you tell us, to the best of your recollection,

18     whether your call to members of the Main Staff command, when it was

19     relative to the other call?  Was it shortly after, a month later, or

20     immediately after?  Can you give us an idea of how long it is?  That's

21     all I want to know.  And if the answer is no, just say no.

22        A.   I wanted to explain the situation to you but if you're asking me,

23     then I will say --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please answer the question.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

Page 12594

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 3        Q.   You recall speaking with General Savcic on the morning of

 4     13 July, do you, or Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic at the time?

 5        A.   I remember speaking to Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic on 13th July.

 6        Q.   You spoke to him about the same issues that you spoke to

 7     Colonel Jazic about, is that fair?

 8        A.   Since I didn't know the whereabouts of Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic,

 9     it is more likely that he called me in order to find out what the

10     situation was in my area.

11        Q.   As I mentioned before, are you aware that -- well, you are aware

12     now -- General Savcic testified in the Popovic case about those telephone

13     calls, and in his testimony indicated you called him on two separate

14     occasions, at least.  Does that refresh your recollection of your

15     contacts with General Savcic on the morning of 13 July?  For the

16     Chamber's benefit, I can provide the transcript references:  Transcript

17     pages 15249, lines 13 through 17, and transcript page 15251, lines 22

18     through 25, through transcript page 15252, lines 1 through 9.  Does that

19     refresh your recollection, sir?

20        A.   I say again I didn't know where Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic was.

21     Probably he contacted me and called me, if the Chief of Staff informed

22     him about the situation that was happening in the sector of Nova Kasaba.

23     Whether he called me once or twice, and as for all the contacts in the

24     following period, were always initiated by him.

25        Q.   What I'm saying to you, sir, is that Colonel Savcic says you

Page 12595

 1     called him.  Specifically, he says:

 2             "Major Malinic called me in the morning of that day.  It was in

 3     the early morning hours, I can't remember when, he told me that the

 4     Nova Kasaba sector -- that in the Nova Kasaba sector there were two or

 5     three prisoners of war by then."

 6             And that's at transcript page 124 -- 15249, lines 15 through 17.

 7     I take it you disagree with that, you dispute it?

 8        A.   Yes.  I dispute that, and I believe that

 9     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic called me.

10        Q.   Okay.  What he says at transcript page 15252 in response to the

11     following question, and that's starting at line 2:

12             "Q.  When was the next conversation you had with Major Malinic?

13             "A.  I'm not sure about the time again, but again Major Malinic

14     called me and then he relayed to me the following information."

15             He starts to talk about the information that he received from

16     you.  I take it you dispute that as well?

17        A.   I don't know what information he received from me.

18        Q.   He says that you told him that:

19             "The situation was getting more complex," continuing on line 5,

20     "that there was a continuous stream of larger groups of people, mostly

21     members of the 28th Division from Srebrenica, who were surrendering and

22     that," you, he says, "he was facing a problem.  He could not protect the

23     people, he could not protect his men, let alone the prisoners."

24             That concludes at line 9 of 15252, 12 September 2007.  Does that

25     sound about right and does that comport with your recollection of the

Page 12596

 1     day's events?  If it doesn't, just let us know.

 2        A.   I agree to a point but with some of that I disagree.  I agree the

 3     situation is complicated, a large number of members of the 28th Division

 4     were in that area.  Combat was in progress.  There were a lot of

 5     prisoners, but --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last thing

 7     he said?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the situation on the

 9     13th of July.  If we are talking about how I could not protect myself or

10     the prisoners, I believe that I did both things with the members of my

11     unit.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, there was a part of the witness's

13     evidence I think that didn't come through in the --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You said -- in your previous answer you said, in

15     your last answer, "There were a lot of prisoners, but --" and what you

16     then said was not caught by the interpreters.  Could you repeat that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that it was a complicated

18     situation, that there were many members of the 28th Division in that

19     sector, that there were combat actions going on, and that in that period,

20     I captured or a large number of members of the division surrendered, that

21     I had relatively few men, but that I managed to protect both my own men

22     and the prisoners.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   You spoke to Colonel Beara on 13 July in the morning.  Do you

25     recall that?

Page 12597

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And that was at about 10.15 in the morning, do you recall that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And during the course of that conversation, did you explain to

 5     Colonel Beara approximately how many prisoners there were at that time?

 6        A.   I probably informed him about the number of prisoners who were in

 7     the sector of my unit.

 8        Q.   And was that about 500 prisoners at that time, to your

 9     recollection?

10        A.   I think that if we are talking about the time period at quarter

11     past 10.00, I don't think that it was that number, 500 prisoners.

12        Q.   I'd like to show you P1255.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Please can I have that in e-court?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  The document is under seal.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much.

16        Q.   What I'm showing you is a radio intercept from the

17     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It's dated 13 July 1995, and you can see the

18     time reflected there at 10.15.  You've seen this one before, haven't you,

19     Major?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   And just so we are clear for the record, we can see that it

22     refers to a conversation here between Beara, Lucic and Zoka.  Lucic was a

23     member of your MP Battalion; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   He was your deputy?

Page 12598

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Zoka, that's a nickname for you, isn't it?

 3        A.   It's not my nickname.  But probably in this context, and in this

 4     dispatch, that's how I was referred to, probably, but nobody actually

 5     called me Zoka.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Here you see Beara referring to 400 balijas showing up in

 7     Konjevic Polje.  That's not exactly where your unit was; is that right?

 8        A.   I wasn't in Konjevic Polje.

 9        Q.   And to your knowledge, the 5th Engineering Battalion of the

10     Drina Corps was in that location, is that -- is that right?

11        A.   I told you, I don't know if it was on the 13th, but it was

12     located there, its barracks were there, but I don't know if they were

13     there on the 13th in that section.

14        Q.   Okay.  What I'd like to do is I'd like to go to page 2 in the

15     English and also page 2 in the B/C/S.  And here we can see what's

16     attributed to Zoka as providing information to Beara in the middle of the

17     page, who says, "What's new?"  And the response is, "Well, easy, there

18     are about 500."  Does that comport with your recollection of the

19     conversation you had with Colonel Beara on 13 -- on the morning, rather,

20     of 13 July 1995?

21        A.   I saw that on the previous page, approximately 500, but since

22     this was cut off earlier, I don't know what this referred to, the number

23     of people that were in that sector, that it was the estimate that there

24     was so many men from the division.  Most probably it's that number, 500.

25     As for the number of prisoners at that time, there were no 500 prisoners

Page 12599

 1     at the stadium.  We did not capture then 500 prisoners and have them at

 2     the stadium.

 3        Q.   Well, at the -- in the middle of that intercept, if we go just a

 4     couple of lines up, we can see Beara saying to line them up in rows of

 5     four and five or -- you see that?  It's about seven lines down in the

 6     English from the top of the page.  And it's on the first page of the

 7     B/C/S.

 8        A.   I had the second page or a different page.

 9        Q.   And looks like it's about ten lines up from the bottom of that

10     page.

11        A.   Yes, yes.  I see it.  Line them up in four, five rows.

12        Q.   And on that page also four lines from the bottom you can see the

13     reference to the 500; correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's down at the bottom.

15        Q.   You also had an opportunity to speak to Colonel Salapura that

16     morning; is that right?

17        A.   I don't know whether it was in the morning or during the day.  I

18     don't know exactly what time it was, but on the 13th, it was the case

19     that Colonel Salapura was in the area either of the stadium or of the

20     school.  I really couldn't say which.  But we did see each other.

21        Q.   You spoke to him; right?  You had a conversation with him?

22        A.   I assume so, yes.

23        Q.   Do you recall whether or not he was looking for General Mladic at

24     the time that you saw him on 13 July 1995?

25        A.   I cannot remember if he was looking for General Mladic then.

Page 12600

 1        Q.   Let me show you 65 ter -- I'm sorry, P1256.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document is also under seal.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 4        Q.   Here you can see the intercept in your language on the left side

 5     of the page, for our purposes it's intercept 924 timed at 10.15 at the

 6     bottom of the page.  If you could just zoom in on that part, it will be

 7     easier to read for everyone, at the bottom of the page in the English.

 8     Thank you.  You can read that, Major.

 9        A.   Yes, yes, I've read it.

10        Q.   It indicates a couple of things that I think are important.  One,

11     it indicates that you were in contact with Salapura; right?

12        A.   I said that I don't know if we were at the stadium or at the

13     office.  I'm not sure which.

14        Q.   Okay.  It also indicates that there were around 500 prisoners

15     there at the moment?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Apologies to my learned friend.

18     It was said that this was intercept, and I think that it would be fair to

19     the witness also to say whether this is the text of the intercepted

20     conversation or is this a summary of something and we don't see the

21     source of the summary?  This is not the format of an intercept.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, compared to the previous one, this

23     seems to be a summary.  Is that true, and is the original text available?

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 12601

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12602











11 Page 12602 redacted. Private session.















Page 12603

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] with your leave, Your Honours,

11     on the list of documents that we got from the Prosecution, Exhibit --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second, we are now back in open

13     session.

14             Mr. Stojanovic?

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that that will not be a

16     problem, Your Honours.  I just wanted to note that according to the list

17     of documents provided to us by the Prosecution that they intended to use,

18     P1255 was not marked as being under seal.  And so I just wanted to get

19     further instructions because we also intend to use that document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It was admitted under seal so the present status is

23     that it is.

24             Mr. Vanderpuye, please proceed.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

Page 12604

 1        Q.   I just want to clarify something.  I think what we are looking at

 2     is P1256.  I don't know if that's what Mr. Stojanovic intended to refer

 3     to, but what I thought I heard him say was 1255.  But in any event I can

 4     proceed with my next couple of questions.  And I do apologise,

 5     Mr. President, I know I'm running behind quite substantially at this

 6     point.  I'm trying to cut it down as -- if I can, and I asked permission

 7     to lead the witness a little bit so I can speed things up?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, to what extent the Chamber will take a

 9     passive approach and if there is any objections against leading, we'll

10     deal with that once we are there.  When you say you're a little bit

11     behind, Mr. Vanderpuye, it's not the first time.  I wanted to have this

12     be put on the record.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.  I wanted to show him about four

14     intercepts.  I'm stuck on this one so I don't think I'll do that.  And so

15     I hope to show him maybe two other intercepts and then perhaps one

16     document and wrap it up.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Do as you announced.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Are -- we are in open

19     session, yes?  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:

22        Q.   Mr. Malinic, I was asking you questions about your contact with

23     Colonel Salapura on the morning of 13 July 1995.  Are you aware that

24     Colonel Salapura testified in the Tolimir case?

25        A.   No.

Page 12605

 1        Q.   Would it refresh your recollection were I to tell you that he

 2     testified that he came to the MP Battalion - this is, just for the

 3     record, transcript page 13580 through 13581 - that he came to the

 4     battalion, MP Battalion, and he says:

 5             "I believe the battalion commander, Malinic, was there.  And then

 6     they told me that they didn't know exactly but he was somewhere in the

 7     area of Bratunac," referring to General Mladic.  And then he says, "He

 8     was not at the football pitch itself," and this is also at transcript

 9     page 13583, "that he just passed by it, and on the way back from Bratunac

10     he was stopped by a non-commissioned officer," and he says, "I think that

11     person asked me to go see Malinic again and to pass it on to him that

12     there were certain problems there.  Whether it was about water, I can't

13     remember now, but I met with Malinic both on my way there and back."

14             Does that refresh your recollection as to your interaction with

15     Colonel Salapura on the morning of 13 July?

16        A.   A large number of soldiers and senior officers or, rather, senior

17     officers and politicians were in that area on the 13th of July, or they

18     were passing through.  Which senior officers they were, who I met with

19     from so long ago, it's difficult to say.  Most probably these were

20     encounters, once or twice.  I don't know if they were at the stadium or

21     in the barracks or if they took place at positions where I was.  I am not

22     100 per cent sure to be able to confirm the information about the place

23     and the persons that I met with that day.

24        Q.   All right.  I'll have to accept that one.  While you were --

25     first of all, do you recall going to the football stadium on

Page 12606

 1     13 July 1995?  You remember doing that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Around what time of day did you go?

 4        A.   From the morning until the prisoners left the stadium.  I don't

 5     know if that was ten, 15 or 20 times.  This was the sector that I was in.

 6     So I did not count how many times I went to the stadium area.

 7        Q.   So you were at the stadium pretty much throughout the day, on and

 8     off.  Is that a fair characterisation of what you did?

 9        A.   You could say that in the area of responsibility where my units

10     were deployed, I was there the whole day.  I cannot tell you in

11     percentages what part of the day I spent at the stadium.  It was all very

12     close, so I can confirm that I was at the stadium all day.  I couldn't

13     have any contacts or communications with the superior command and report

14     to them because the only means of communication that I had at my disposal

15     was in the barracks -- or, rather, at the school where my units were

16     located.

17        Q.   In your testimony in the Tolimir case, and this is at

18     transcript page 15378, lines 18 through 20, you're talking about when

19     General Mladic addressed the prisoners.  And what you say is:

20             "Prior to his arrival, I was not at the stadium, at the field.

21     When General Mladic arrived, I was informed by way of radio that he had

22     arrived and I went there and I arrived a few minutes later."

23             Is that accurate?

24        A.   Yes.  When General Mladic came to the football pitch in

25     Nova Kasaba, I was not at the pitch at that point in time.  I was not in

Page 12607

 1     that sector.

 2        Q.   And when General Mladic arrived at Nova Kasaba and addressed the

 3     prisoners, was the process of making a list of the prisoners ongoing?

 4        A.   The process of making a list lasted from the moment of capture

 5     until the soldiers of the 28th Division went off in buses and trucks.

 6     When General Mladic happened to be at the stadium, he addressed the

 7     prisoners, and at that point in time the taking down of the names of the

 8     prisoners had to be interrupted because he was addressing all members of

 9     the 28th Division at the stadium or at the pitch.

10        Q.   In terms of the list of prisoners that was made, did you turn

11     that list over to anybody?  Or your unit?  Did your unit turn that list

12     over to anyone?

13        A.   The list of prisoners were handed over to the Chief of Staff,

14     Jovo Jazic.

15        Q.   Did anybody dealing with the prisoners and the 13th of July

16     request that list from your unit?

17        A.   Nobody requested the list of prisoners that we made.

18        Q.   Did it strike you as odd that prisoners who were destined,

19     according to General Mladic, to be exchanged, that the list did not

20     accompany them when they left your custody to go to Bratunac?

21        A.   There was nothing there to constitute a problem, in my mind.

22     These prisoners were supposed to go through security processing, they

23     were supposed to be interviewed, and on the basis of these interviews

24     information would be obtained concerning certain individuals who were

25     being searched for.  Therefore, the list that I drew up was the list of

Page 12608

 1     soldiers that we captured in the Nova Kasaba area.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to ask one question.  You said the process

 3     of making a list lasted from the moment of capture until the soldiers of

 4     the 28th Division went off in buses and trucks.  Now, were the names of

 5     all those who boarded on those buses or trucks put down on that list?

 6     Was the list complete?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't confirm that.  I don't

 8     think that all the prisoners who were there added up on the list.  The

 9     time at that -- that was at the disposal did not allow that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  After Mr. Mladic had addressed the persons on this

11     football pitch, was then the listing of names continued?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it did.  There was no

13     reason why the process of listing prisoners should not continue.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  What was then the purpose of listing them?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the rules of service

16     of the military police, the individuals who are taken or brought in, who

17     are captured, should be listed because you have to know who you have in

18     your custody.  That was the purpose of drawing up a list.  You need to

19     know who you have as prisoners.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which would require a complete list, whereas

21     you said that these lists were not complete.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you that most probably

23     the lists were not completed because the vehicles which were supposed to

24     transport them arrived in the area of the stadium.  Since this was just

25     before dark, there was the risk that the security and safety primarily of

Page 12609

 1     these prisoners would be endangered.  I had no way of securing the

 2     location where they were.  I didn't have any flood-lights.  I didn't have

 3     a fence that I would be able to put up in order to keep the prisoners all

 4     in one place.  Thirdly, I didn't have enough men to fully secure these

 5     prisoners at night when visibility is less.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  First, then, the rule was not applied when you

 7     thought of a good reason not to apply that rule?  Is that correctly

 8     understood?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, time did not permit me to

10     finish what I started.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Time was a reason not to further apply the rule.

12     Second you said you -- the risk --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Risk to the security and the safety primarily of

15     these prisoners would be endangered.  What were the risks these prisoners

16     at that point in time were exposed to, and to which you would have to

17     protect them against?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you take somebody

19     prisoners, then you are responsible for his security and safety.  With my

20     unit I was unable to provide full security in outdoors in conditions of

21     reduced visibility.  I could not provide security to anyone in the area

22     since I lacked the required resources.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye, but not for too

24     long.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 12610

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You're well beyond your time.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm aware of that.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Mr. Malinic in your Tolimir testimony, transcript page 15378,

 4     line 6, you specifically addressed this question of listing prisoners,

 5     and what you say in your answer, and I'll be brief, is that, "I don't

 6     know whether they were all listed."  Is that the gist of your testimony

 7     today?  Or are you now claiming that they were all listed?

 8        A.   I think that I said a moment ago that I believed that not all the

 9     prisoners were listed.

10        Q.   All right.  And the list that you made remained with you; is that

11     right?

12        A.   Yes.  On the 13th of July, it stayed with me.

13        Q.   Where is it now, if you know?

14        A.   I think that I said once before that the list, together with some

15     other documentation, was handed over to Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic, who was

16     the Chief of Staff of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment; in other

17     words, the list should be stored in the archive of the regiment.  Since

18     the MP Battalion didn't have its own archive, nor would it have one under

19     the rules, the entire archive complete with all the documents should be

20     in the archive of the regiment.

21        Q.   Let me show you P1281.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye --

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you really have to finish now within a few

25     minutes.

Page 12611

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  This is the last intercept I was going to show.

 2             Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document is also under seal.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I appreciate your indulgence, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   All right.  We have it on the screen in front of us now.  Okay.

 6     Sir, you can see this is an intercept timed at 5.30.  It is dated 13 July

 7     and it refers to 6.000 of them.  You can see it's a conversation between

 8     X and Y, which begins with, "Is it possible to send about ten buses from

 9     Bijeljina?"  And Y responds, "Tell them right away to come.  There are

10     about 6.000 of them now."  And X says, "Of military age?"  And Y says,

11     "Shut up, don't repeat."  Further on in the conversation, just a couple

12     of lines down, you can see a reference to about 1500 to 2.000 of them at

13     each point.

14             First, do you know what those points are that are referred to in

15     this intercept?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Did you have at Nova Kasaba between 1500 and 2.000 prisoners, to

18     your recollection, at around 5.30 in the afternoon of 13 July 1995?

19        A.   Between 1.000 and 1200 members of the 28th Division were taken

20     prisoner at Kasaba.

21        Q.   Do you know how many prisoners there were taken at any other

22     location, such as Sandici meadow, on the afternoon of 13 July 1995?

23        A.   I didn't have any communication with Sandici.  There is some

24     knowledge on the basis of films and documentaries which had to do with

25     the time and the place.  Depending on the programme and depending on who

Page 12612

 1     made these programmes, the numbers varied.  I have no knowledge about how

 2     many prisoners there were at these other places, at these other points.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's the simple answer.  There is no need to

 4     comment on what others have possibly investigated or reported about.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I appreciate your indulgence and

 6     I don't want to push my luck, so at this point I will conclude my direct

 7     examination.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I do appreciate your indulgence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. Malinic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break but not until after we have

13     returned into closed session and allowed the witness to leave the

14     courtroom.

15                           [Closed session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 12613

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Mr. Vanderpuye asked you a few questions about an intercepted

 7     telephone conversation in which you appear as Z or Zoka.  You were asked

 8     about something you said during that conversation after the question was

 9     put to you, "What's new?"  And you responded then, "It's easy, there are

10     about 500."  And then Mr. Vanderpuye asked you whether this was about the

11     number of prisoners by that time, 10.30 in the morning.  Your answer was

12     that:

13             "I don't know what this referred to," you said, "The number of

14     people that were in that sector, that is what the estimate, that there

15     were so many men from the division.  Most probably it is that number.  As

16     for the number of prisoners at that time, there were no 500 prisoners at

17     the stadium.  We did not capture then 500 prisoners and have them at the

18     stadium."

19             Which is all not a very direct answer to the question that was

20     put to you.  Now, I'll put a very direct and clear question to you.  But

21     before I do so, I would like to read from the Rules.  A Chamber may, and

22     that's what I'm doing now, warn a witness of the duty to tell the truth

23     and the consequences that may result from a failure to do so.

24             Possible consequences of not telling the truth is that you expose

25     yourself to be prosecuted and to be fined or imprisoned, maximum term of

Page 12614

 1     imprisonment seven years or a fine of 100.000 euros.

 2             Now, I put again this question to you:  What did you refer to

 3     when you mentioned the number of 500?  If you don't know any more, tell

 4     us.  If you say it were prisoners, that fits at least to some extent in

 5     the context of the conversation and other evidence.  Tell us what did you

 6     refer to when you said, "It's easy, there are about 500."

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wanted to explain

 8     the contents of the intercept, and I said that in my answer there are

 9     certain dots that precede it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you what did you refer to.  I didn't ask

11     for an explanation of the circumstances.  I asked you what did you refer

12     to when you said "... easy, there are about 500."

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The number most probably referred

14     to the number of the members of the 28th Division, it was an estimate of

15     the members of the 28th Division present in the area where I was.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there again.  "Most probably," it is not

17     about probabilities.  You spoke.  What did you refer to?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the entire sentence can be seen

19     in the intercept, because the transcript contains a number of dots ahead

20     of the sentence where number 500 appears.  So the number 500 did not

21     refer to the number of the captured members.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That is not explained by dots.  I'm asking you what

23     did you refer to when you mentioned the number of 500.  That's my simple

24     question.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a simple question but the

Page 12615

 1     answer isn't simple because the intercept does not contain the entire

 2     sentence that I must have uttered.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether or not the intercept gives us other

 4     information, I hereby establish that you refuse to answer the question.

 5     That's what you're doing.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic, you can cross-examine the witness.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you still want to answer the question, you

 9     can do so, but until now you have refused to answer my question.  Whether

10     it's supported by other parts of the conversation is a different matter.

11     I just asked you what did you refer to at that point in time.

12             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I will put several questions to you and I

16     will do my best to cut this examination short.  You said that in the

17     evening of the 12th, you had about 20 members of your unit with you.  Can

18     you tell the Chamber what sort of soldiers were these?  Were they

19     professional soldiers?  Were they enlisted, mobilised soldiers, or were

20     they recruits serving military service?

21        A.   Ninety-five per cent of the personnel were in fact recruits

22     serving their obligatory military service.  On the 12th of July, 1995,

23     there were elements of the logistics platoon at the barracks, elements of

24     the military police, and some of the command staff, me included.  So they

25     were basically recruits serving their obligatory military service.

Page 12616

 1        Q.   Ninety-five per cent of members of your unit, these servicemen

 2     doing their obligatory military service, were in fact young men aged

 3     between 18 and 20, would that be right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did your unit at any point have an order, as a unit of the

 6     Main Staff, to participate in the military operation around Srebrenica?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Do you know if a single unit of the Main Staff of the

 9     Army of Republika Srpska had any specific assignments within the

10     Drina Corps Operation Krivaja 95?

11        A.   I don't know if other units of the Main Staff had any duties or

12     any sort of assignments related to Operation Krivaja 95.

13        Q.   The first information of the danger that your command and your

14     unit might be involved in was one that you received from

15     General Zivanovic of the Drina Corps; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber how you came by this information and in

18     what way?

19        A.   General Zivanovic called me over the telephone and told me that

20     major forces of the 28th Division were heading from Srebrenica my way.

21     They were coming to the location where I was.

22        Q.   To your knowledge, was a -- was the stretch of the road between

23     Konjevic Polje and Vlasenica and the stretch between Konjevic Polje and

24     Nova Kasaba, on the evening of the 12th of July, covered by any of the

25     formations of the VRS?

Page 12617

 1        A.   To my knowledge, nobody covered the road between Konjevic Polje

 2     and Milici on the 12th of July 1995.

 3        Q.   The first operative information to the effect that members of the

 4     28th Division were present in the area and had crossed the road heading

 5     in the direction of the municipality of Zvornik was one that you received

 6     from accidental passers-by along that road; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you remember as you sit here today that on -- or, rather,

 9     where it was that the commander of your regiment,

10     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic, was on the morning of the 13th?

11        A.   I didn't have any information about his whereabouts.  I only know

12     that he was engaged with elements of the unit in the Zepa area or in that

13     direction.  I didn't have information about where specifically he was

14     located.

15        Q.   On the morning of the 13th, you received your reinforcements in

16     response to your request.  Can you tell us what is your best estimate,

17     how many men did that reinforcement consist of?

18        A.   Lieutenant Benak, the commander of the APC unit, was dispatched

19     as a reinforcement from Crna Rijeka.  And if I remember correctly, he

20     came with two military police BOVs or combat vehicles and some 40 men.

21             In the course of the day, several hours after Lieutenant Benak

22     arrived with the unit or with that element of the unit, around 30 men

23     came from the 67th, the communications regiment, a detachment there -- a

24     platoon there, and a squad from the anti-aircraft artillery battalion

25     arrived as well, along with a Praga.

Page 12618

 1        Q.   At that point, once you've received that reinforcement, would it

 2     be fair to say that you had roughly 100 men with whom you could proceed

 3     to carry out your next assignment?

 4        A.   Yes.  I had around 100 men under my command.

 5        Q.   According to the operative information that you received from

 6     General Zivanovic, did you know how many members of the 28th Division

 7     were headed your way, were advancing towards your positions?

 8        A.   Based on what General Zivanovic told me on the evening of the

 9     12th, there were several thousand members of the 28th Division on the

10     move through the area where I was.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question and then we will have to

12     adjourn anyhow.  You said they were all on -- there were several thousand

13     members in the area where you were.  That is more than 500.  Do we agree

14     on that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the information

16     conveyed to me by General Zivanovic was, and this was on the evening of

17     the 12th of July, that along the axis where I was, several thousand

18     members of the 28th Division were on the move.  Mr. President, when

19     I said 500, I meant in that sector at that specific time.  This was our

20     estimate of how many people were present.  That's my opinion.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll adjourn for the day.

22             Witness, I instruct you that you should not speak with anyone

23     about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given already or

24     testimony still to be given, and we would like to see you back tomorrow

25     morning at half past 9.00 in this same courtroom.

Page 12619

 1             We'll adjourn once we are in closed session, until tomorrow, the

 2     13th of June, 2013, and we'll start tomorrow morning in closed session

 3     and then move into open session immediately after that, unless there are

 4     any preliminary matters to be raised.  We turn into closed session.

 5                           [Closed session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of June

19                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.