Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12620

 1                           Thursday, 13 June 2013

 2                           [Closed session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17             Mr. Malinic, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by

18     the solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and

19     nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  ZORAN MALINIC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his

23     cross-examination.

24             Mr. Stojanovic you may proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you and good morning.

Page 12621

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to ask you to tell the

 3     Trial Chamber in your estimate at what time did this reinforcement arrive

 4     that you requested from your Chief of Staff?

 5        A.   Lieutenant Benak with this part of the unit from the armoured

 6     transporter company came about an hour or two after our request for

 7     assistance, so that was probably around 9.00 a.m., and then an hour or an

 8     hour and a half after that, this part came from the

 9     67th Communications Regiment and the section from the anti-aircraft

10     division.  So you could say that at 10.00 or 10.30 that last

11     reinforcement part came to the field where I was.

12        Q.   So at one point in time, were you able to draw out the unit and

13     take the positions along the road, the Konjevic Polje-Kasaba road?

14        A.   When the reinforcements arrived, we worked on expanding the

15     blockade line to deploy units along the road, so then this was completed

16     when the unit came from the communications regiment.  We linked up with

17     the unit that was to the left of us, the police unit, perhaps at 10.00

18     and then when the units -- the unit from the communications regiment

19     came, we just reinforced that particular sector.

20        Q.   And yesterday during the examination-in-chief, you mentioned that

21     you also contacted the 5th Engineering Battalion and that you asked for

22     equipment in order to be able to erect blockades at the place where these

23     two units linked up.  So could you tell us a little bit more about this?

24        A.   I don't know if it was me who got in touch with the unit of the

25     5th Engineering Battalion, because they were not part of our force.  It's

Page 12622

 1     most probable that I asked for this through the Chief of Staff, through

 2     the regiment, for them to get in touch, and to have an engineering unit

 3     come to me to block this part of the terrain which was not easily

 4     visible, and that was a problem.  Also, night was coming so that would

 5     pose an additional problem.  So that particular section of the terrain

 6     was blocked by engineering units of the Drina Corps.  The reason for the

 7     request was that I didn't have the personnel or the equipment to do that

 8     myself.

 9        Q.   I'm asking you this so that you could tell me what do you mean

10     when you say, "Block the positions."  What was done?

11        A.   The units of the Engineering Battalion took a part of the terrain

12     that was not -- where the visibility was not good, and blocked it by

13     placing different kinds of infantry mines in that area.

14        Q.   At which point in time did you receive information that you had

15     your first prisoners?

16        A.   I had the first prisoners in the morning on the 13th of July,

17     approximately at around 7.00 a.m.  That was when the first three

18     prisoners were brought to the barracks where I was.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And can we now look at P1255

20     together, please?  And I would just like to note again that it's under

21     seal.  This is the document that we looked at yesterday.  Could we look

22     at the next page in both versions of the document, please?  And can we

23     look at the next page in the English version as well, please?  Thank you.

24        Q.   And can we look at a part of this intercept together?  Before we

25     go into an analysis of that part of the conversation, I just want to ask

Page 12623

 1     you if you recall this conversation at all?

 2        A.   I said that it's possible that we talked, but I really couldn't

 3     say exactly what we talked about, and I couldn't really recognise that

 4     entirely in this particular intercept.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Witness, may I just jump in here?  The

 6     question was different.  Counsel asked you, "... I just want to ask you

 7     if you recall this conversation at all."  Please answer this question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not entirely, no.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But you recall that this conversation took part

10     and that you were part of this conversation; is that correct?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember talking with different

12     people on the 13th.  I don't remember the content or the exact time.  I

13     don't remember if that was the person that I actually spoke to at 10.15,

14     the person mentioned here.  I can't really tell because that happened a

15     long time ago, so I cannot really say yes, I remember that particular

16     conversation on the 13th with this particular person.  So that's why I'm

17     saying it's possible that I did have the conversation but it's also

18     possible that I did not have the conversation, if you get my meaning.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20             Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, since the witness doesn't remember

23     the conversation, we don't have to spend more time on it.  The Chamber

24     has the conversation by whomever in evidence and we'll have to interpret

25     this evidence in the context of the totality of the evidence, so let's

Page 12624

 1     move on to another subject.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then I'm going to

 3     put a similar question because I just wanted to ask this, actually put it

 4     in one sentence, but I'll do it this way.

 5        Q.   Sir, at any point in time did you have information that in the

 6     woods, in the direction in which the 28th Division column was moving,

 7     members of the column were killing each other?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And do you remember where you got this information from?

10        A.   I remember the information because a couple of wounded people

11     were brought out by members of the 28th Division, who were not wounded by

12     infantry weapons.  They had very serious wounds.  I remember an example

13     where one wounded person had his face completely blown off.  Everything

14     was open, the head, the skin.  He was skill alive but this is something

15     that will always stay with you.  You remember it for the rest of your

16     life.  So this information came to me through these prisoners, those

17     soldiers who brought that wounded person down to the medical station that

18     was on the football pitch.  So this is the information that I got about a

19     part of the members of the 28th Division committing suicide and that

20     there was in-fighting among them.

21        Q.   And do you remember at all that you were asked that day on the

22     13th, at any point during the day -- or, you were told that along the

23     road where you were, a delegation was supposed to pass comprising one

24     Russian and one French person and that they were on their way to

25     Bratunac, and this was along with the members of the column passing

Page 12625

 1     continuously?

 2        A.   No.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]  Can we now look at D301,

 4     please?  D301.  And can I please direct your attention at item 6.

 5             Your Honours, this is a statement of facts and plea agreement by

 6     the witness that we had the opportunity to hear a few days ago.  In the

 7     statement of facts and during the examination-in-chief, among other

 8     things, in item 6, it says:

 9             "For most of the day of the 12th of July, I was in Potocari

10     co-ordinating and working with Dusko Jevic, a commander of the MUP

11     Special Police force, and following other military and MUP units."

12             And then they are listed:  Drina Corps military policemen, under

13     Major Petrovic; members of the Drina wolves of the Zvornik Brigade;

14     elements of the 10th Sabotage Detachment; elements of the

15     65th Protection Regiment military police, and so on.

16        Q.   What I want to ask you is this, Witness:  Would this, in any way,

17     change the position that you stated that on the 12th of July, you did not

18     have any forces that you would be able to send to Srebrenica?

19        A.   None of the members of the 65th Protection Regiment, except those

20     who were engaged on the protection of General Mladic, was in Srebrenica

21     or in Potocari.  The only squad that was there at that point in time -- I

22     didn't know where it was, probably with the commander of the Main Staff,

23     but no other elements of the military police were engaged in Srebrenica

24     or Potocari on the 12th of July.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us, please, whether on the

Page 12626

 1     13th of July at any point at your unit's command there was an UNPROFOR

 2     member?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   To the best of your recollection, when did you get in touch with

 5     them and how did this come about?

 6        A.   I believe these were -- this happened in the afternoon on the

 7     13th of July when I was informed from the reception area, the lobby, that

 8     a member of the UNPROFOR wanted to see me.  I received him at my office.

 9     We talked, and this member, and I believe he was a Dutch lieutenant, and

10     a member of a unit that was stationed in Potocari explained to me that he

11     had a problem, that some equipment had been seized, his equipment or

12     their equipment, and that he would like to talk to someone who can assist

13     in resolving this problem.  He came to see us.  We went to the battalion

14     command, where one of my assistants made a list of all the equipment that

15     had been confiscated, and we gave him a copy and another copy was kept on

16     the premises of the battalion.  And I promised that I would see what

17     could be done about this with the help of the competent officers, in

18     order to restore this equipment to the UN forces.  There was a strict

19     order that no equipment should be confiscated from UNPROFOR members,

20     UN members, that they should not be taken prisoner and that they should

21     be assisted as much as possible on the ground.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I will now put another question.  Can you tell us, to

23     the best of your recollection, whether there was any mention about where

24     this equipment had been confiscated, in what area?

25        A.   I assume that this was noted in the -- on the list and the

Page 12627

 1     document that was prepared on this occasion.  I can't tell you exactly

 2     where this happened.  I believe there was mention of the area but I can't

 3     really recall as I sit here, and I can't recall who it was who had done

 4     that.

 5        Q.   Could you tell us, if you recall, whether there was any mention

 6     about the identity of these persons who confiscated the equipment?

 7        A.   I can't really say.  As I sit here, I don't know whether there

 8     were members of the Army of Republika Srpska or police members or

 9     civilians, for that matter.  I can't really say for certain.  But it's

10     probably -- it was probably noted down and this lieutenant, he took a

11     copy of the document, the list, whereas the copy that we had, that we

12     kept, was forwarded to the regiment archives.  So I can't really tell you

13     with certainty anything about it at this point, as I sit here.

14        Q.   Could you tell us, please, what happened after that, once you

15     took this down and made this note or logged this in the logbook?

16        A.   The lieutenant requested that I escort him with my men to

17     Potocari, but I couldn't do that because of the situation that I was in,

18     and the lieutenant, who was in touch with his command, he decided to stay

19     at the barracks.

20        Q.   To the best of your recollection, how long did they stay there in

21     the barracks?

22        A.   Two to three days, as far as I can remember, they stayed at the

23     barracks.

24        Q.   During those two or three days were they free to move around, as

25     far as you were concerned?

Page 12628

 1        A.   UN members had the full freedom of movement.  They had their

 2     weapons on them and the entire equipment that they had come with.  They

 3     were armed, in other words, and they were provided a room where they

 4     could sleep and be on their own.  They had their vehicles with them, and

 5     communications equipment.  And I believe that at one point the lieutenant

 6     said that he was on line with his base in Split and I assumed that he was

 7     also linked -- had communications with the Potocari battalion, with his

 8     battalion in Potocari.

 9        Q.   You mentioned three prisoners in early morning on the

10     13th of July, and that they were kept at the -- at your unit command's

11     facilities.  What was happening?

12        A.   Well, these weren't really facilities of any sort.  This was just

13     a house, a private home, that was next to a -- the school building, and

14     there was a garage or that sort of thing, like a shed, and in addition to

15     these three, the -- some ten other prisoners were brought there.  Those

16     were the first -- the first batch that was coming in.  But as the number

17     of prisoners grew, we organised their accommodation at the stadium.  The

18     prisoners who were held in that building, or rather in that house, were

19     transferred to the stadium during the day, and when they joined the other

20     prisoners who had been taken prisoner on that day.

21        Q.   At some point in time, did you receive any information to the

22     effect that a TV crew might come to film these prisoners at the stadium,

23     at the football pitch?

24        A.   I received an order, not information.  I believe this order came

25     from Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic, where he said that TV crews would come to

Page 12629

 1     my sector and that they should be assisted in filming all of this, that

 2     it should be facilitated for them, that they shouldn't be checked, that

 3     there was no need to screen them but just to make it possible for them to

 4     do their job.  This would have been sometime around noon, I believe.

 5     That's my assumption.  I think it was about noon time on the

 6     13th of July, 1995.

 7        Q.   Did you enable them to do this?  Did you make it possible?

 8        A.   Yes.  The crews did arrive.  I think there were at least three

 9     crews including a foreign crew, and they had the full freedom to film all

10     the developments on the football pitch in Nova Kasaba.

11        Q.   At any point in time, did you take any steps in order to provide

12     medical assistance to the prisoners who were held there at the football

13     pitch?

14        A.   That morning, when these activities began, when we realised the

15     situation we were in, and when combat operations began as part of this,

16     through the president of the municipality of Milici, we employed a

17     medical team from the Milici hospital who came -- who went to the stadium

18     to provide medical care, not just to the prisoners but also to members of

19     my unit who had been wounded.  So there were no exceptions or no special

20     treatment of one's or the other's.  This medical team remained there the

21     whole day.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last portion

23     of the answer.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last portion of your

25     answer.  What we have on the record is, "This medical team remained there

Page 12630

 1     the whole day."  What did you say after that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the prisoners left.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Can you remember whether there were any logistical facilities in

 6     order to provide water to these people at the pitch?

 7        A.   Yes.  Some of the equipment that we took from the municipality,

 8     but also the bags, the military satchels that we had, the water we had

 9     there, we engaged people to get water for the prisoners, and the

10     president of the municipality was also very helpful in this.  He helped

11     us get some food for the prisoners, primarily bread, because the Milici

12     bakery also produced bread for the barracks -- for the men in the

13     barracks.

14        Q.   At any point in time, did you receive information to the effect

15     that there was some construction work going on near the football pitch,

16     that there was some digging going on and heavy equipment used for that?

17        A.   No.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull in

19     e-court 04179, a 65 ter document.

20        Q.   This document, sir, is something that you were asked about in the

21     previous trial where you testified at length, and I will just have a few

22     questions.  Do you remember -- can you remember, have you ever seen this

23     document, and when, if so?

24        A.   Yes.  I saw this document for the first time in 2005.

25        Q.   Is this a document that was shown to you by the investigators on

Page 12631

 1     the 14th of December, 2005, when they interviewed you, the ICTY

 2     investigators?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   After that first perusal of this document, I would like to ask

 5     you, can you tell us, as you sit here, whether you call whether at any

 6     point in time on that day on the 13th of July --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last portion

 8     of the question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you repeat the last portion of

10     your question which was not caught by the interpreters?

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   So my question was whether after the elapsed time, after so much

13     time has elapsed, can you tell us, as you sit here, whether you can

14     recall whether you had received this document on that day, on the

15     13th of July?

16        A.   No.  I don't have any recollection of that.

17        Q.   In military terms, in the signals system that you had in place,

18     the system of communications, would such a document in this format, would

19     it be possible for it to reach your unit?  Could you get a document of

20     this format?

21        A.   If you mean a telegram format or if your reference is to the

22     format of an order, the answer is no.  But if your question is whether it

23     could have reached me in any other way, my answer would be yes, there

24     would be such a possibility.

25        Q.   The reason I ask this is because we see in the heading of this

Page 12632

 1     document, on line 3, where it says that it should be forwarded to the

 2     commander of the Military Police Battalion of the

 3     65th Motorised Protection Regiment, and then the word "order" follows.

 4     So I ask you:  At any point in time, did you or did you not receive --

 5     whether you received an order of this type or not, would you have taken

 6     action pursuant to it?  Would you have obeyed it or acted upon it?

 7        A.   Had I received such an order, I would have acted on it.

 8        Q.   Then my next question is:  At any point in time, to the best of

 9     your recollection, did you prohibit any filming or taking photographs of

10     the prisoners?

11        A.   No.  I had an order where it said that the teams would arrive and

12     that they were entitled, allowed, to film everything.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you explain whether this was a written order

14     or whether it was an oral order; and if it was an oral order, by whom it

15     was given?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean the order about the

17     arrival of the TV crews?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said -- the one you just referred to.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I already answered

20     that question but I will repeat that.  Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic called to

21     say that the -- that TV crews would come to the Kasaba stadium and that

22     they had the right to film.  I don't think that Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic

23     issued the order on his own.  He probably wasn't authorised to do so, but

24     that was probably an order from the superior command.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Why would he not be authorised to do so?

Page 12633

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it wasn't in his remit to

 2     do so.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Why was it probably an order from the superior

 4     command?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because the Main Staff also

 6     had a press center, and part of their duties was film documentation, so

 7     they were probably the ones who organised the filming.  They would take

 8     the TV crews out in the field throughout the whole republic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a follow-up question to that.  Witness,

11     earlier you said that three film teams arrived that the location, at the

12     football pitch, one was a foreign one.  Can you tell us from which

13     country?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot really say, perhaps it was

15     British.  The people in the press centre would know that better.

16     I didn't really pay attention to that.  I didn't do any checks, because

17     it was said that they didn't need to be vetted.  It was not my -- part of

18     my duties to deal with reporters or TV crews.  I had some other duties

19     that I was paying attention to.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many people were part of these three TV

21     teams?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said, as far as I can remember,

23     it was at least three, and there were at least 10 or 12 people there in

24     those TV crews that appeared in the field, in the area, on the

25     13th of July.

Page 12634

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ten people altogether or every team comprised by

 2     ten people?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  It wasn't each crew.  It

 4     was a total of 10 to 12 people in all the crews together.  I don't know

 5     how many people there were in each crew.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How did you establish that these people were

 7     three teams, three crews, and not one?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were three or more, as

 9     I said, because there were several cameras, so I got the impression that

10     it was several crews.  They also had the logos on the cameras.  I wasn't

11     really paying attention to who was coming.  Once I received the order,

12     then it's quite a natural, normal thing that you would let them do their

13     job.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for the help.

16        Q.   In paragraph 2, it says here:

17             "Prohibit traffic for all United Nations vehicles on route

18     Zvornik-Vlasenica.  Until further notice, re-route them via

19     Zvornik-Sekovici-Vlasenica and back."

20             I'm asking you at any point in time on that day, the

21     13th of July, or later, did you stop or prevent the passage of UN

22     vehicles along the road where your unit was deployed?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   And then in item 4, it states, "The commander of the

25     military police battalion --"

Page 12635

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not see the

 2     original.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   "... will get in touch with General Miletic and receive from him

 5     additional orders and verify if the proposal has been approved.  And

 6     verify if the proposal has been approved by the commander of the VRS

 7     Main Staff."

 8             I'm asking you now:  Do you recall, on this basis, if you got in

 9     touch with General Miletic and asked him whether all of this that was

10     written by the commander of the Main Staff was also approved?

11        A.   Had I received the document, I would have probably acted pursuant

12     to the order and asked General Miletic about these activities, but as

13     I said, I don't remember.  I don't recall seeing the order.  So probably

14     I did not get in touch with General Miletic on this particular issue in

15     order to resolve it.  It's a little bit illogical, the sense of it,

16     because it's an order but then I'm also supposed to contact somebody to

17     verify if the order was actually issued.  So it's a little bit illogical.

18     Probably the first step is to co-ordinate the steps that need to be taken

19     and then send a specific order to me as the commander of the unit as to

20     what to do and what measures to take.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye?

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you,

23     Your Honours and everyone.  I don't mean to be problematic, but in the

24     question that Mr. Stojanovic put to the witness, there appears at

25     page 15, lines 23 through 25, the question was:

Page 12636

 1             "... on this basis, if you got in touch with General Miletic and

 2     asked him whether all of this that was written by the commander of the

 3     Main Staff was also approved?"

 4             There is no indication in the document that this was written by

 5     the commander of the Main Staff, so I'm not sure that the question is --

 6     that the answer is responsive to the question or the question was framed

 7     as Mr. Stojanovic had intended to.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, what made you suggest in the

 9     question that it was an order issued by the Main Staff?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you will see from

11     the documents that follow.  But I would just like us to focus once again

12     on item 4, item 4 of the document which I literally read, in which the

13     commander of the military police battalion is asked to get in touch with

14     General Miletic and receive from him additional orders and verify if the

15     proposal, this proposal, has also been approved by the commander of the

16     VRS Main Staff.  That's what I read in Article 4.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think I would like to help with this.  There is

18     perhaps a misunderstanding or it's the way it was put to the witness.

19     I understand the question to be:  If you got in touch with

20     General Miletic and asked him whether all of this that was written was

21     also approved by the commander of the Main Staff.  That is, I think, the

22     gist of the question.  And I'm of the view that the witness answered that

23     question, if this was really what was asked.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If I misinterpreted it, my apologies.  I always

25     appreciate the assistance of my colleagues.  Let's proceed.

Page 12637

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, that is

 2     precisely what the question was.  Now can we look at document 04026?

 3     And, Judge Fluegge, thank you very much.  We know to that this document

 4     has been looked at many times.  04026, this is a 65 ter document.  That's

 5     the document.

 6        Q.   And I would like to ask you to look at it.  This is a document by

 7     the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska of the 13th of July, 1995.

 8     Before we go back to the first page again, Your Honours, could we please

 9     zoom in on and look at the stamp on this document?  And we would be able

10     to see on the right-hand side of the stamp the time.  I see that it says

11     here, if I'm not mistaken, Witness, in the part that says "approved," the

12     time, I think 2235 hours and then in the section "approved" it's 2239 on

13     the 13th of July, 1995.  I would now like to ask you this, with a request

14     to look at the heading of the document in the B/C/S and we already see it

15     in the English, this document, among other things or other places, was

16     also sent to, we are looking at "to," the

17     65th Motorised Protection Regiment.  Did you in the field at any point in

18     time have the opportunity to acquaint yourself with this document?

19        A.   Well, if it's not a problem, may I just have a little bit of time

20     to look at the document?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Looking at the document, we see in the English

22     translation only that there was a delivery stamp but no further details.

23     Is there any way, because there is far more information, it seems, in

24     that stamp, perhaps parts illegible, but that we can have access to that

25     as well?

Page 12638

 1             Mr. Vanderpuye, do you agree that the English version only --

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  There is a second page in the English version

 3     which should reflect the information contained in the stamp.  So if we go

 4     to page 2 in the English we should see the information that's contained

 5     in the stamp.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's of course where I looked,

 7     Mr. Vanderpuye.  Of course, if it's at the bottom of the document I look

 8     at the bottom of the English document as well, that it says, "stamp,"

 9     that there's two stamps at the bottom of this document, one is a command

10     stamp and the other is a delivery stamp.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Correct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And I have in e-court, I have just delivery stamp.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, I understand.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you ask -- before you give me guidance to go

15     to page 2, I'd say go to page 2 first yourself, because I had done that

16     already.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President, I wasn't intending to give

18     you guidance.  I only saw page 1 on e-court, and that's what I assumed

19     that the Chamber was referring to.  So I didn't know you had already

20     moved to page 2.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course I would do that.  I would not ask

22     questions about stamps at the bottom without looking at the bottom of the

23     English version as well.  Therefore, I said the delivery stamp is only

24     there by saying delivery stamp without any further details.  I would not

25     have said that unless I would have verified that in e-court which I did.

Page 12639

 1     Is there any way to get a fuller translation of that portion of the

 2     document where it says, "delivery stamp"?

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, I can look into that and maybe there is

 4     another version of it.  I'll look for it just now and I'll -- I'll let

 5     the Chamber know.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Otherwise, I think it would be advisable that the

 7     parties sit together and see to what extent they can read that stamp,

 8     because some words are -- well, at least readable, legible.  Other parts

 9     may be more problematic in that respect.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Witness, just one question:  Did you ever have the opportunity to

13     see this document?

14        A.   Well, it's possible that I saw it in 2005 during my interview at

15     The Hague Tribunal offices in Belgrade.

16        Q.   And during the war, on the night between the 13th and the 14th or

17     the 14th and the 15th of July, did you have the opportunity to look at

18     the document?

19        A.   Well, I can see that it was sent to the command of the

20     65th Motorised Protection Regiment.  It was at the command which happened

21     to be located in Crna Rijeka.  I don't think that the regiment command

22     would send out an original source order like this one.  If they received

23     the order then probably on the basis of this order they would draft their

24     own order with similar items for those parts that referred to my unit and

25     the section in which I was in.

Page 12640

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question was:  Did you have the opportunity

 2     to look at the document during the war?  Please answer that question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that in this form and in

 4     this format, probably not.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you see it in a different format?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know if you

 7     understand me.  The dispatch, the telegram, is addressed to the

 8     protection regiment.  If the command of the protection regiment received

 9     this telegram --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, I have to stop you.  It is a simple

11     question, you can say yes or no, did you see that at the relevant point

12     in time?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   Did you -- and I'm going to finish with this document with this

17     question:  Did you at any point in time act upon the instructions in this

18     order referred to in the text that you have in front of you, on the 14th,

19     the 15th or onwards?

20        A.   A lot of the things here do not concern my unit, sections, and

21     axes and places and settlements are referred to that were not in my area

22     of responsibility at the time.  Perhaps the only relevant part would be

23     not to permit the arrival of journalists in the sector of combat.  That's

24     the only thing, as well as to prevent the passage of UNPROFOR forces, but

25     I couldn't do that.  They could have done that somewhere else.  I was in

Page 12641

 1     the middle.  They could have been dealing with that part outside of that.

 2     I already had UN forces at my barracks.  So that I practically did not

 3     act pursuant to this order.  I did not drive the members of the UN forces

 4     out of my barracks, had I received any orders to that effect.

 5        Q.   And -- thank you.  In view of your experience up to that part,

 6     would it have been natural during combat to expect the -- all people who

 7     had no business there or all uninvited people to prevent them from coming

 8     to that combat area?

 9        A.   Well, that is a general rule, not only in the Yugoslav People's

10     Army and the Army of Republika Srpska which took over all those rules,

11     but these are rules of combat that apply in all armies in the world.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just try to understand?  You earlier told us

14     that you gladly accepted the presence of television crews, three in

15     numbers, and that you had not received that order, and that you told us

16     that, of course, the freedom of movement of UN was the most normal and

17     logical thing to do.

18             Now, looking at this order, you say, of course it would be

19     illogical to allow anyone to be there, whereas a minute ago, when you

20     apparently -- you had not received this order, you considered it, may

21     I assume, logical, to do just the opposite?  So I have some difficulties

22     in reconciling your logic as developed by your own behaviour and the

23     logic as we find it now in this document.

24             Do you have an explanation for that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not have the

Page 12642

 1     authority to take decisions on whether TV crews would be -- would come to

 2     my sector or not.  That is something that was the purview of the superior

 3     command or the command of the Main Staff.  In this particular situation,

 4     it wasn't me who was to decide or who was even consulted whether I should

 5     allow the teams to come in and film or not.  There was an order informing

 6     me that these TV crews would come to film this, and to film the

 7     developments at the pitch and in Kasaba.

 8             Now, as for me, the activity of TV crews and journalists in

 9     combat areas, I believe, are unacceptable for the reason of security of

10     those crews or journalists.  And in my view they should not be allowed to

11     access such areas, but I did have an order and I acted on it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.  Please proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will now deal

14     with the arrival of General Mladic, but I see the time and perhaps we

15     could go on break.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will take a break, and we will first move

17     into closed session.

18                           [Closed session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 12643











11 Page 12643 redacted. Closed session.















Page 12644

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             Mr. Stojanovic, perhaps it would be best if you restart your

17     question.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Sir, at one point in time, on the 13th of July, you were informed

20     that General Mladic was coming.  Where were you when that information

21     arrived?

22        A.   I received information that General Mladic had arrived outside --

23     I was not at the stadium.  I don't know whether I was on the front line

24     or in the barracks, I can't really recall, but I received the information

25     via a Motorola unit, that's the equipment we use, so basically I received

Page 12645

 1     information that the commander of the Main Staff, General Mladic, had

 2     arrived.

 3        Q.   Did you have any information that General Mladic would come

 4     previously?

 5        A.   No.  There were no indications or prior announcements that

 6     General Mladic would visit Nova Kasaba.

 7        Q.   Could you tell us, to the best of your ability, at about what

 8     time General Mladic made an appearance at the football pitch in

 9     Nova Kasaba?

10        A.   As far as I can recall, that was in the afternoon, perhaps

11     between 5.00 and 6.00 p.m. or thereabouts.  That was when General Mladic

12     arrived at the football pitch in Nova Kasaba.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we take a look together at

14     a document, P1132?  And if we could have page 43 in e-court?

15             Your Honours, this is the photo album compiled by Jean-Rene Ruez,

16     and we need the photo on page 43.

17        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this area and this field?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In this aerial photo, we see that this was taken at around

20     2.00 p.m.  Now, the first thing I would like to ask you is whether you

21     can remember that at about this time the prisoners were grouped in these

22     two different groups, as we can see in the photo?

23        A.   Now, whether this second group is a group of prisoners, that is

24     something that remained unclear the last time I testified.  It is

25     possible that these are prisoners, but it's also possible that these were

Page 12646

 1     people from Milici and the surrounding areas who were there at the

 2     stadium.  So I still have doubts about what this is.  There was a group

 3     of prisoners who were waiting to be registered, lists were supposed to be

 4     compiled of prisoners, and there were officers at the field who were

 5     compiling these lists.  So I can't really say with any certainty either

 6     way.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you thought these were people from Milici, what

 9     would they have been doing on the ground there and just sitting there?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Well, some people from Milici

11     were present there at the stadium, although this was probably my mistake,

12     a mistake on my part.  I shouldn't have allowed it.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What would they have been doing there at the

14     stadium?  What was the purpose of their gathering there on the pitch?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The purpose of their being there on

16     the pitch was to identify the prisoners because some of these men were

17     people they knew very well and had worked with up until recently.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And who had asked them to identify the prisoners?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one asked for that.  It was

20     their own will.  They even were given the opportunity to talk to these

21     neighbours of yore if they recognised any one amongst the group.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have one follow-up question in that respect.

24     Did they then spontaneously gather at this football pitch in the middle

25     of this war turmoil?  Is that how I have to understand your testimony?

Page 12647

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This was a spontaneous

 2     gathering of the people from Milici and the surrounding areas.  They had

 3     heard, they had been informed, that a large number of members of the

 4     division were kept prisoner at the stadium and perhaps it was a mistake

 5     on my part to allow anyone to be there, but that was the situation then.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So you specifically allowed them in there?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for all practical purposes,

 8     yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You were not ordered to do so?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you explained to us before the break that it

12     was far too dangerous for anyone who had nothing to do there, television

13     crews, or -- to be around because that was only logical, as you explained

14     to us, that people should stay out.  And nevertheless, I allowed possibly

15     this second group to be lined up that nicely in this football pitch and

16     spontaneously coming there and being allowed by you to identify the

17     prisoners?  Is that your testimony?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  And I've said that I probably

19     made a mistake.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mistake of what?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a mistake.  It was a mistake

22     to allow unauthorised personnel to be there.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was mainly interested whether this was your

24     testimony.  You have confirmed that.

25             Mr. Stojanovic you may proceed.

Page 12648

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a follow-up again.  Now, you say you

 2     allowed these people to come in.  At page 26, lines 6 to 14 - I'm not

 3     going to read all that - you say:

 4             "It is possible that these are prisoners, but it's also possible

 5     that these were people from Milici."

 6             Are you now changing from that position and saying you know

 7     definitely that these were people from Milici?  Is that now your

 8     position?  Because you allowed them?  It's not a possibility now, it's a

 9     definite fact?  Is that your position?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've said I'm not sure.  It

11     is possible that these people who had come from Milici, that they were

12     under these trees so you can't really see them.  That is a possibility

13     because I know that there was a number of civilians there without weapons

14     at the stadium.  Now, whether they were there precisely at this time or

15     not, I can't really say with certainty but I do know that some civilians

16     were present at the stadium.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We then understand your testimony to be that you

18     saw people, you didn't know who they were, you just thinking that they

19     are possibly from Milici, and without knowing their identity you allowed

20     them to be there to identify the prisoners?  Is that how we must

21     understand you?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I said that I wasn't sure

23     whether this group --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking you what you said.  I said is that

25     how we must understand your testimony, that you allowed people whose

Page 12649

 1     identity you're not even sure of who they are, they could jolly well be

 2     enemy and you just bring them there to identify prisoners because you're

 3     saying it is possible?  You're not saying definitely these are people

 4     from Milici.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A number of civilians who had come

 6     and who were at the stadium, I knew these people, and next to them there

 7     were people --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm stopping you.  Please answer my question, and

 9     if you don't want to answer, say you don't want to answer my question.

10     Is that how we must understand your testimony, yes or no?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot answer with a

12     yes or no.  I can say --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Im asking you to answer with a yes or no.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you're putting me --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I stop you there.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in a tight spot here.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I stop you.  I stop you there.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't really answer with a yes or

19     no.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic should wait -- Mr. Mladic should stop for

21     a second.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I stop you there.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic should wait for a second to consult with

24     counsel and should keep his voice at a low volume.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And be seated.

Page 12650

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And you should wait for a second.  We will just

 2     continue meanwhile.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, is that how we must understand your

 4     testimony, yes or no?  That's what I'm asking you.  Don't tell me I'm

 5     putting you in a spot.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some people who were sitting there

 7     I knew but not all of them.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm stopping you.  Do you want to answer my

 9     question or not?  I'm asking you a different question.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer your question with

11     a yes or no.  It's impossible.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             Mr. Stojanovic.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have also a follow-up question on this

15     matter.  I would like to take you back to the beginning of this line of

16     questioning.  This aerial photograph was shown to you and you were

17     asked -- the first question was:

18             "... whether you can remember that at about this time, the

19     prisoners were ground in these two different groups, as we can see them

20     on the photograph?"

21             You started your answer by saying:

22             "Now, whether this second group is a group of prisoners, that is

23     something that remained unclear the last time I testified.  It is

24     possible that these are prisoners but it is also possible that these were

25     people from Milici and surrounding areas ..."

Page 12651

 1             So the whole line of questioning started clearly with two groups

 2     of prisoners where you said, Well, whether the second group are prisoners

 3     or are people from Milici, I'm not sure about that.  After a few

 4     follow-up questions, you suddenly positioned the Milici people invisible

 5     under trees.  Therefore, you're just deviating from previous answers and

 6     you're deviating from the question.  Do you have any explanation about

 7     why suddenly you are -- why you suggested that the second group visible

 8     on the photograph may have been people from Milici, why you suddenly

 9     changed that and make them invisible people from Milici under the trees?

10     Do you have an explanation for that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I've already said,

12     there are two possibilities.  At this point, I can't really say what the

13     situation was at 2.00 p.m. on the 13th of July.  I told you what the --

14     about the second group, there were two possibilities:  One is that these

15     are prisoners who are waiting their turn to be registered, and the other

16     possibility is that these were people from Milici, civilians, who were

17     there who had come to view the prisoners.  So I am not disputing at all

18     this second group in the field.  Now, in this other possibility, that

19     these are prisoners who are waiting to be registered, that included the

20     possibility that the civilians were under the trees on the sidelines.  As

21     I sit here and after all this time that has elapsed, I can't really

22     confirm and say with certainty which is which.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  Mr. Malinic, how many people from Milici

25     were present there?

Page 12652

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't really say the number.

 2     I can't recall.  Maybe 50 or 30.  I can't really say.  I didn't count

 3     them.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How did you establish that they were from Milici?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because most of the people there, I

 6     knew.  And I socialised with them in Milici.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Were they Serbs or Muslims, or both?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, as far as I know,

 9     there were only Serbs in Milici.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not asking about the people in Milici.  In

11     this group which you indicated that they were probably from Milici, if

12     they were Serbs or Muslims?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How could they be able to identify the prisoners?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you're standing 20 or

16     30 metres away and you see a man that you had worked with until very

17     recently, then you may know his name, first and last name.  You can

18     recognise that person, if I can put it that way.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did anybody call these people from Milici to come

20     there for identification purposes?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Their role was not to identify

22     these people on behalf of the military organs.  It was like a personal

23     act to recognise their co-workers or colleagues that they had worked with

24     until just earlier.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you compile a list of those people from

Page 12653

 1     Milici so that you can follow up if there was perhaps a mistake or a

 2     misidentification?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Were these people from Milici civilians?  Or were

 5     they in uniform?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that they were all

 7     civilians.  I don't know if they were militarily engaged or not.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What about uniforms?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so, no.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Were women among this group?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a considerable possibility

12     of that.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please describe the identification process.  How

14     was that carried out?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, it was not an organised

16     identification process.  It was an act of every person who wanted to --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please describe how that was carried out, not in

18     general terms, but what could a person who was standing there, and you

19     were there, could see how that was carried out?  Describe that, please,

20     so that I have a picture and can understand what you are talking about.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot describe it precisely, but

22     I can tell you in principle, if you come and look at the prisoners and

23     you see and recognise somebody with whom you worked or who was your

24     neighbour, then those civilians could talk with those prisoners, they

25     could go up to them and speak with them.

Page 12654

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How can they speak to each other if they are

 2     grouped in that way as we see it on the aerial photograph on the screen?

 3     How can they speak to each other individually?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the person who was

 5     recognised by the person who had come from Milici would not stay in that

 6     group.  They would stand up and stand next to the group and talk.  But I

 7     cannot confirm to you how many such examples there were or give you the

 8     exact number.  I apologise.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why were these people -- if the left group on the

10     screen on this picture was the group of the people from Milici, why were

11     they grouped in such a strict order?  Who gave this order to be grouped

12     in that way?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one lined up those civilians who

14     arrived and followed what was going on in the stadium.  That's why I said

15     that one of the possibilities is that these were not civilians, this

16     other circled group, but that these are members of the 28th Division who

17     were waiting for their names to be taken down.  At that point in time,

18     I was unsure as to the disposition on the stadium and the things that

19     were happening on the 13th of July at the stadium.  I gave you two

20     options, and I explained each one.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I heard that, yes, thank you.  Since we are

22     dealing with this situation there on the football pitch, I have an

23     additional question about the lists of prisoners which were compiled.

24             How many members of your unit were present during this

25     registration process?

Page 12655

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was one superior officer, he

 2     was a general affairs desk officer, so his role in the battalion was just

 3     general information.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I asked you about the number.  How many members

 5     of your unit were present?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three or four soldiers at the most,

 7     and the senior officer were given the task of taking down the names and

 8     making the list.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Only the senior officer was given this task, to

10     make -- to prepare the list; is that correct?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a -- not a senior officer

12     but it was a general affairs desk officer in the battalion.  He was a

13     sergeant first class in the battalion.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was not my question.  I asked you that only

15     this person was tasked to prepare the list; is that correct?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many names did he put on the list during this

18     process until it was stopped?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said he was the only superior

20     officer.  Some people were helping him.  I don't know the number of

21     people who were helping.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I asked you if this person was the only one who

23     compiled the list.  Now you are saying other people helped him.  And you

24     don't know the number.  You were in charge of this group.  Can you tell

25     me how many names were put on the list and how many pages were -- how

Page 12656

 1     many pages were used for this purpose?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to answer that

 4     question.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I would just direct Your Honour's attention to

 7     page 35, line 4, when the witness immediately said:

 8             "Three or four soldiers at the most, and the senior officer were

 9     given the task ..."

10             So that's maybe what creates the confusion.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is possible.  Thank you very much for that

12     intervention.

13             Have you ever seen the list?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you have -- had you had the opportunity to

16     hold them in your own hands?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yesterday already we talked about the purpose of

19     this registration process.  And then you told us it was not used any

20     more, it was then later given to a certain officer and then put in the

21     archives.  Why was that list compiled and why wasn't it used for

22     preparation of the exchange you testified about yesterday?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The main thing when you capture

24     somebody is to take down their particulars.  This is the main thing

25     according to the rules of the military police.  And that was the main

Page 12657

 1     reason to take down the names of the detainees, the prisoners.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, not again what you already said.  I would

 3     like to know why was it not used for that purpose, for the exchange of

 4     prisoners?  Why was it not used for that purpose?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was not in charge of

 6     the prisoner exchange.  Why didn't anyone ask for the list?  And it is

 7     known that the list was made.  This is the question that goes beyond what

 8     I know, beyond my knowledge.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, no further questions.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one follow-up question.  How far is the

11     distance between Milici and the football pitch in Nova Kasaba?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two to 2 and a half kilometres or 2

13     and a half to 3 kilometres.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  How did these people from Milici arrive?  Did they

15     come by car or?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really couldn't say.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Could you tell us, to your best recollection, how long

20     General Mladic stayed among those people?

21        A.   General Mladic, if I remember correctly, stayed up to 30 minutes

22     at the Nova Kasaba stadium, up to 30 minutes.

23        Q.   And did he come from the direction of Konjevic Polje?

24        A.   I don't know which direction General Mladic came from.  He was

25     already there when I arrived, so I wasn't at the stadium when he arrived

Page 12658

 1     in order to be able to say from which direction he had come.

 2        Q.   And did you see the vehicle that General Mladic arrived in?

 3        A.   I think so, yes.  I think it was parked next to the road.

 4        Q.   Can you please tell us what type of vehicle it was?

 5        A.   I cannot really specify the type of vehicle.  I think it was a

 6     Puh.

 7        Q.   And were there any other vehicles escorting General Mladic's

 8     vehicle, armoured personnel carriers or any other kind of vehicle?

 9        A.   I think not.  There were no armoured personnel carriers.  As for

10     whether there were any other vehicles in the escort of General Mladic's

11     vehicle, I really cannot say because I don't remember.

12        Q.   Where was General Mladic standing while he addressed the

13     prisoners?

14        A.   General Mladic walked among them.  If we look at this photograph

15     and this image, he walked among the prisoners.  He wasn't standing in

16     front of them.  He walked among them.  I don't know whether he went in 3,

17     4 or 5 metres deep but he was among them in this area that is marked with

18     a rectangle.

19        Q.   How far were you at that point from the place where

20     General Mladic was?

21        A.   When I arrived, I stood practically at the forward edge.

22     I didn't walk among the prisoners.  I was standing at the line where the

23     prisoners were.

24        Q.   You heard what General Mladic told the prisoners; is that

25     correct?

Page 12659

 1        A.   A part of it, yes.

 2        Q.   Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what you heard?  What did

 3     General Mladic say to the prisoners?

 4        A.   I'm not able to interpret exactly General Mladic's words.  I can

 5     just tell you generally what topics he talked about.  They were war,

 6     Alija Izetbegovic.  As I said, it's what I remember.  People become

 7     casualties on the basis of unthought-out decisions, and that is why the

 8     prisoners do not need to be afraid because they would return to their

 9     houses and be exchanged.

10        Q.   And do you remember if any of the prisoners addressed

11     General Mladic?

12        A.   I don't remember if -- I don't remember that anybody actually

13     stood up and said anything.  But there is a possibility that people were

14     saying things out loud, that they were giving confirmation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, would you please stop the witness

16     when he expresses the word "there is a possibility."  We have heard so

17     many possibilities.  Thinking of possibilities, everyone can do that.  We

18     would like to hear his testimony about what he observed, what he heard,

19     what he saw, not about what he thinks could be a possibility.  Unless he

20     has any --

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- facts, he can present the facts he observed and

23     then whether there are any possibilities, if that is an obvious start of

24     such a line of questioning, then you can ask him about it.  But as soon

25     as this witness spontaneously comes up with possibilities, you're invited

Page 12660

 1     to stop him, and otherwise the Chamber will do.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you carry on, I have a clarification

 3     question.

 4             Sir, what -- did Mr. Mladic address these people as he was

 5     walking amongst them?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Mladic didn't walk among

 7     them.  He stepped among them and then he was standing in one spot.  And

 8     that's where he spoke to them.  He addressed them.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just want to refer to your testimony a few

10     minutes ago when you said he was walking amongst them, which is what

11     triggered my question.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that I said that he

13     walked among them.  I said that he stood among them, "usao medju njim."

14     He walked into this place marked with a rectangle.  I think this is what

15     I said.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have in the transcript page 39, line 11, the

17     sentence, "General Mladic walked among them."

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And if you say that there is a transcription or a

20     translation error we will be glad to verify it.  Then we listen to our

21     own language and then it will be verified whether it's transcribed

22     properly and whether it's translated properly.  If you insist on that, no

23     problem, we'll do it.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you insist on it?

Page 12661

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  That should be repeated,

 2     yes.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Witness, then I should read the full answer

 4     you gave, and you should consider if that is really your request.  Lines

 5     11 to 15, the record shows:

 6             "General Mladic walked among them.  If we look at this photograph

 7     and this image, he walked among the prisoners.  He wasn't standing in

 8     front of them.  He walked among them.  I don't know whether he went in 3,

 9     4 or 5 metres deep but he was among them in this area that is marked with

10     this rectangle."

11             Four times you said that he walked among them.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you still insist on that --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honours, this could be a nuance of

14     interpretation.  "Stood among them," "stepped among them" is a

15     possibility as well.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question then still stands, was he among them

18     as he spoke to them?  He wasn't standing outside the group and facing

19     them and addressing them, that's my question.  He talked to them while he

20     was among them.  Is that your testimony?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 12662

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Witness, can you please tell us if you recall what the reaction

 3     of the prisoners was after General Mladic addressed them?

 4        A.   General Mladic, once he stopped talking, he was applauded by the

 5     prisoners.

 6        Q.   After this visit to the stadium, did you see where General Mladic

 7     was headed?

 8        A.   General Mladic left towards Milici.

 9        Q.   Can you remember whether General Mladic at any point went to the

10     facilities that you referred to as the facilities of your command?

11        A.   As far as I know, he didn't.

12        Q.   How far is it, in terms of time, to get from the football pitch

13     in Kasaba to Vlasenica, driving at a normal speed?

14        A.   About 20 minutes.

15        Q.   The same question:  How long would it take you to get from the

16     crossing in Konjevic Polje to the Kasaba football pitch?

17        A.   Ten minutes at most.

18        Q.   Thank you.  On those days, did you have occasion in any other

19     situation to run into General Mladic or to meet him?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Thank you.  We will briefly go through this document and then I

22     will conclude.  But tell me, at this point in time, did you have any

23     tasks that had to do with searching the terrain?

24        A.   On the 16th or 17th of July, Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic, I

25     believe, came and said that the terrain would be swept and that --

Page 12663

 1     referring to the area between Srebrenica towards the communication to

 2     Milici and Konjevic Polje.

 3        Q.   Who was supposed to take part in this sweeping of the terrain?

 4        A.   As far as I know, the terrain sweep was supposed to be carried

 5     out by the Bratunac Brigade, whereas my task, or my unit's task, was to

 6     remain where we had been since the morning of 13th of July and to remain

 7     there blocking that area through the end of the terrain search.

 8        Q.   Who issued this task to you, specifically?

 9        A.   That my unit will be tasked with blocking the area during the

10     search of the terrain, this was issued to us, this task, by

11     Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic.

12        Q.   Tell me, please, whether it is your understanding that when you

13     get such a task, a task of searching the terrain after combat, is this a

14     legal military activity?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Do you know whether you were involved in this for more than a

17     day?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did your unit, during the execution of this task, have any

20     imprisoned members of the 28th Division, any prisoners?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you know whether some other units that participated in the

23     search of the terrain captured any prisoners as a result of this search

24     of terrain?

25        A.   I first learned that there were some people taken prisoner during

Page 12664

 1     the search.  I first learned this information during the Tolimir trial

 2     when I testified.  I learned it from the Prosecutor.

 3        Q.   Did you know that police units also took part in searching the

 4     terrain, civilian police?

 5        A.   I expressed my doubts about this entire activity of searching the

 6     terrain because the unit doing this has to link up with --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We are not interested to hear the doubts of the

 8     witness.  He can tell us whatever fact he knows, he observed, or he

 9     heard.  And then whether that creates doubt or not is -- so, please,

10     would you rephrase your question, Mr. Stojanovic?  Well, even there, do

11     you have any fact to your knowledge which would indicate that the police

12     units also took part in searching the terrain, that is civilian police?

13     Do you have any fact to your knowledge?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My left neighbour were Zvornik

15     police units, and if we talk about units that took part, they were in a

16     blockade, and this was part of the activities involving the search of the

17     terrain.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No ifs and ands, please.  Your left neighbours were

19     Zvornik police units, okay, that's fine.  What now -- if we talk about --

20     no ifs -- any fact you know about your left neighbour Zvornik police

21     units which is relevant, please tell us.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when you interrupted

23     me a little earlier, all those were facts.  I -- it was not my intention

24     to talk about possibilities or probability.  When I say facts --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- please answer my question, if you're able to

Page 12665

 1     do so; if not, the next question will be put to you by Mr. Stojanovic.

 2     You talked about that your left neighbours were Zvornik police units.

 3     Anything to add to that fact which may be relevant for this Chamber to

 4     finally know whether police units took part in searching the terrain,

 5     that is civilian police units, any fact?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the combat operation

 7     of terrain search consists of units that are in blockade.  They take up

 8     positions along a certain line and then there is -- there are elements of

 9     units that search, that comb the terrain.  Now, the police unit

10     participated in --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, next question, please.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I believe that the

13     sentence was left hanging but I will continue, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Sir, in those days, at any point in time, did you see or hear

15     that the prisoners of war who were in the area of responsibility of your

16     battalion had been -- that any war crimes had been committed against

17     them?

18        A.   I didn't have any information about what happened to the

19     prisoners who left the stadium in Nova Kasaba, so, in that sense, I had

20     no information as to what was done with them.

21        Q.   And my final question:  Did you ever, while you were in that area

22     in July 1995, see any work done involving the sanitation of the area, the

23     restoring, restoration of the field, "asanacija," the collection of the

24     bodies and so on?

25        A.   A part of that work was done by the civilian bodies of the Milici

Page 12666

 1     municipality, so a part of the terrain was restored by civilians of the

 2     Milici municipality.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Stop you again.  What -- and that was the question,

 4     what did you see in this respect?  Did you see any work done involving

 5     the sanitation of the terrain?  Did you see something or did you not see

 6     something?  And then we'll have some follow-up questions.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that a part of the

 8     terrain --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Stop.  No.  What you know -- the question what is

10     you saw.  Could you please tell us whether you saw anything as far as the

11     sanitation of the terrain is concerned.  That's a simple yes or no,

12     I take it.  Either you did see something or you did not.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see anything.  No,

14     I didn't see anything.  But I did have knowledge.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  The question has been answered.  The

16     witness did not see anything.

17             Please, next question, Mr. Stojanovic.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   My next question:  What did you know about the sanitation of the

20     terrain, and did you have any knowledge that had to do with the areas

21     where the bodies were buried?

22        A.   I don't know anything about the sites where the bodies were

23     buried, but I know that the civilian authorities of the Milici

24     municipality took steps to restore the terrain to carry out the

25     sanitation.

Page 12667

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  A short question, again, in relation to the

 4     football pitch.  You told us that there was the group of the civilians

 5     from Milici.  Were they still present when Mr. Mladic arrived?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that they were there

 7     when General Mladic arrived.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  When did they leave?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say with any precision

10     when it was that they left that area, the area of the football field.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How did they leave and go back to Milici?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that they left

13     individually, just the way they had come.  Now, whether they -- whether

14     they used any vehicles or whether they had walked there, I really don't

15     know.  I can't tell you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a problem now with your testimony, sir.

18     You told us earlier that you called these people to identify, isn't it

19     so?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  That's not how it is.

21     I never said that I had called these people to identify someone.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We will be looking for that in the

23     transcript.  In the meantime, you arrived there, according to your

24     testimony, after Mr. Mladic arrived on the scene, isn't it so?  You

25     received a message on the Motorola that Mr. Mladic has arrived, is that

Page 12668

 1     not so?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You came there and you saw these people on the

 4     field, didn't you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What people are you referring to?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The people of Milici.  You saw the people from

 7     Milici on the field, didn't you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people from Milic were --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes or no.  You saw the people from Milici on the

10     field when you got there?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I never said that

12     I arrived at the stadium when General Mladic came, and that I saw people

13     from my Milici there.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm asking you -- I'm not saying you said so.  I'm

15     asking you a question.  Did you see these people from Milici on the field

16     when you got there?  That's my question.  I'm not saying you said so.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A moment ago, answering the Judge's

18     question I said I didn't know how long --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you see the people from Milici when you got to

20     the field, yes or no?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the people

22     were Milici were at the stadium at the time.  If they were there, I did

23     see them.  If they weren't there, then I didn't see them.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then I don't have any further questions for

25     you.  Thank you so much.

Page 12669

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  One short follow-up question.  Just to be sure, you

 2     had seen the Milici people there earlier, before Mr. Mladic arrived?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Earlier that afternoon?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even earlier, in the morning.  As

 6     soon as the capturing of prisoners began, as soon as these prisoners were

 7     brought to the stadium, these people began coming to the stadium.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you assist me again, that was

 9     approximately at what time?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let's say around noon time.

11     I can't really be precise.  I can't tell you exactly when it was that

12     they began gathering there and when they began coming but when the first

13     prisoners were taken prisoner and taken to the stadium, they probably

14     learned -- heard that there were prisoners coming to the stadium and

15     that's when they began to gather.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Save the Chamber the probabilities.

17             We will take a break, and we'll first move into closed session in

18     order to allow you to leave the courtroom.

19                           [Closed session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 12670

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             Mr. Vanderpuye, any need to re-examine the witness?

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon to

11     you.  I have I think about 15, 20 minutes of redirect examination.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             If we could have in e-court 65 ter 4037.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

16        Q.   Mr. Malinic, just a few minutes ago you were asked some questions

17     by my colleague Mr. Stojanovic about a sweep operation that was

18     co-ordinated by Colonel Keserovic.  Do you recall that?

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Actually, I've given the wrong number.  Let me

20     give you the right number, 65 ter 26128.  Sorry about that.

21        Q.   Do you remember being asked some questions about the sweep

22     operation and your unit's participation in it just a few moments ago in

23     cross-examination?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   All right.  What I want to show you is this document, and you can

Page 12671

 1     probably see it now on the screen, yes, there it is.  17 July 1995 is the

 2     date, Main Staff of Republika Srpska, you can see in the B/C/S at the

 3     bottom of the page typed signature of General Mladic, commander, and

 4     you'll find that on the third page in the English, together with a copy

 5     of the stamp.  So if we can just skip back to the first page in the

 6     English, I want to just point something out.  You can see it in the

 7     B/C/S, though, and you can see that this is a document indicated very

 8     urgent and directed to, among other units, the military police battalion

 9     of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.  You recall receiving this

10     document?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And if we could just go to item number 3, I'd like to just take a

13     quick look at that, it's on page 2 in the English.  Thank you.  And just

14     about the second paragraph in that item, it says:

15             "I hereby appoint Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic the officer for

16     military police in the Main Staff of the VRS security administration as

17     the commander of all the aforementioned forces."

18             You see that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And the aforementioned forces are listed there at the beginning

21     of item number 3.  Does that comport with your recollection of the units

22     that were engaged in the sweep of the territory indicated in this order?

23        A.   In my case, I can say that this part of the battalion that was in

24     Nova Kasaba did take part in the sweep operation activities.  I cannot

25     guarantee about the other units.  I cannot say that that was that.

Page 12672

 1     I didn't have any contact with them.

 2        Q.   The idea behind this order was to sweep the territory in the zone

 3     of the Bratunac-Drinjaca-Milici-Besici village with the aim of

 4     discovering and destroying lagging Muslim groups, yes?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this exhibit.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 26128 receives number P1556,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:

12        Q.   Yesterday - I believe it was at transcript page 12616 - you were

13     asked whether or not your unit received any task in relation to

14     Operation Krivaja 95.  Do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And your answer was that your unit did not participate in the

17     Srebrenica operation.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I just want to clarify with you that when you say your unit

20     didn't participate in that operation, you're referring to the military

21     police battalion as opposed to the 65th Protection Regiment or units

22     of -- other units of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment?  Is that

23     right or is that wrong?

24        A.   Primarily I'm thinking of the battalion of the military police,

25     but I also think that the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment did not have

Page 12673

 1     any assignments relating to the Krivaja 95 Operation.

 2        Q.   All right.  Then let me show you 65 ter 4037.  This is a document

 3     dated 21 July 1995.  It's issued by the Main Staff of the VRS, and if we

 4     go to page 3 in the B/C/S and page 3 in the English, I think we'll see

 5     that it's signed, I believe, by General Mladic, not for, but in any

 6     event, issued by General Mladic.  And what I want to draw your attention

 7     to is - if we can go back to the first page very quickly- we'll see that

 8     it's an order and it refers to Srebrenica in particular.  And it says on

 9     the basis of the situation observed in Srebrenica municipality, the

10     conclusion has been reached that civilian organs of power are functioning

11     in a disorganised manner.  And the intent of the order, if you read it

12     through, basically is to establish normal and living and working

13     conditions in the region, and General Mladic orders that a commission be

14     formed and names a number of personnel, then he, in item number 3,

15     assigns certain tasks to the commission.

16             And what I want to do is I want to take you to item number 3.8

17     which should be on page 2 in both versions.  Item 3.8 refers to the

18     commission president to be Colonel Lazar Acamovic to report directly to

19     General Mladic about the work being carried out.  And item 4.1 just below

20     that refers to the MUP and members of the military police units to clear

21     the terrain and mop up remaining fundamentalist groups.

22             Do you recall receiving a task in relation to that assignment or

23     this order?  And if you don't, just let us know.

24        A.   I don't think that I ever received any assignments in relation to

25     this order.

Page 12674

 1        Q.   Okay.  Let me take you to item number 6, that's on page 3 in both

 2     versions.  And in this item we see that General Mladic orders that the

 3     commission provide the following war booty for the needs of units that

 4     participated in combat, and I remind you that this is in reference to

 5     Srebrenica as all of the other provisions are.  And it names the

 6     65th Motorised Protection Regiment, the 67th Communication Regiment, and

 7     the sabotage battalion.  So were you aware that these units participated

 8     in combat in relation to Srebrenica in July 1995?

 9        A.   If we are talking about the activities of the 13th, 14th and

10     15th of July as being integral part of the battles for Srebrenica, then

11     yes.

12        Q.   You're aware, Mr. Malinic, that Srebrenica fell to the VRS on the

13     11th of July, Tuesday; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So there was no battle for Srebrenica on the 13th, 14th or 15th;

16     right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   The combat operations towards Srebrenica were initiated by the

19     VRS before the enclave fell on the 11th; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So my question is:  Were you aware of the participation of the

22     units mentioned in this item 6 of this order, their participation in the

23     combat in relation to Srebrenica; that's the

24     65th Motorised Protection Regiment, your unit, the

25     67th Communications Regiment and the sabotage battalion as indicated

Page 12675

 1     here?  Were you aware of that?

 2        A.   No, because the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment did not take

 3     part in the fighting for Srebrenica.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you done with the document?

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I am, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then I have one or two additional questions.

 7     Did you receive any of those items there, that is colour TV sets, video

 8     recorders, freezers and washing machines for your unit?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military police battalion that

10     was in Nova Kasaba did not receive any of the items that are in this

11     order.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I meant to ask you whether the

13     65th Motorised Protection Regiment received any of these items.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not aware if

15     the rest of the regiment received any items from the war booty.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just have one more

18     question in relation to this document before I tender it.

19        Q.   Item 5 of this document indicates that all heavy machinery and

20     trucks as well as UNPROFOR equipment shall be - and the translation -

21     considered part of VRS war booty.  I ask you this question in relation to

22     the vehicles that were left behind by UNPROFOR members when they went to

23     your battalion command in Nova Kasaba on the 13th of July.  Do you recall

24     them having been returned, that is the soldiers having been returned to

25     Potocari at their command without their vehicles which remained at your

Page 12676

 1     command?

 2        A.   Yes.  Two vehicles remained in Kasaba.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And what happened to those vehicles?  Were they returned

 4     to UNPROFOR members, to your knowledge?

 5        A.   No.  Those vehicles were not returned to UNPROFOR.  They were

 6     used in the military police battalion, one in the regiment and one in the

 7     MP Battalion.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document

10     as well.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 4037 receives number P1557,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  I've one additional

15     question.  Earlier, when you told us that there were claims that UNPROFOR

16     members had been deprived of their belongings and that you said, Well, we

17     listed all that, we tried to find out, could have been civilians who

18     would have done that or military.  You didn't know.  And you expressed

19     that it was improper to take such goods from UNPROFOR.  Have you any

20     explanation why you considered it to be proper to use their vehicles and

21     not return them to UNPROFOR?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The vehicles that stayed in the

23     barracks in Nova Kasaba were used when the DutchBat left Potocari and

24     went either towards Belgrade or, actually, once they left the territory

25     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 12677

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is that -- makes it -- what makes the difference

 2     if you want to return something which is inappropriately taken from?

 3     I mean, you could have offered it to be returned, isn't it?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That battalion left the territory

 5     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so I did not have the possibility of returning it

 6     to anyone at any place, whereas the kind of unit that we were required

 7     vehicles.  There was a shortage.  So we used it well.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You say you had no possibility.  You could have

 9     raised the matter with your command and say, Well, we still have two

10     vehicles which should be returned to the legal owners, isn't it?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.  The command was

12     informed and this was not information that was concealed.

13     Lieutenant Egbers, when he was leaving - that was the lieutenant who was

14     heading the UNPROFOR force in Kasaba - received a receipt, other than the

15     list of equipment, also a receipt that he left those two vehicles in

16     Nova Kasaba.  Communications equipment that was in that -- in those

17     vehicles is something that Lieutenant Egbers dismantled and took with

18     him.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was what did you do to return it to

20     UNPROFOR, if anything at all?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't do anything,

22     Mr. President.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Witness, you say when Lieutenant Egbers left, he

24     dismantled the communication equipment in the cars.  You also said you

25     had no possibility to hand back the cars to that -- to the DutchBat

Page 12678

 1     people.  When he dismantled the communication equipment, why wasn't he

 2     just given the whole car?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the problem with their

 4     departure from the Kasaba sector to go to Potocari was a problem of a

 5     security nature.  At any point in time, Lieutenant Egbers could have left

 6     the area with his vehicles and his men, but he did not dare to do that

 7     due to personal safety concerns on the way from Kasaba to Potocari,

 8     because at that time combat actions were being carried out in that area.

 9     The information that I have is that he was given permission to leave the

10     vehicles and to transport himself and his men and their personal

11     equipment that they had in APCs to the Potocari base.  That was a way to

12     do it with the least amount of risk, both for him and for me.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  At page 56, lines 20 to 25, you say:

14             "Yes, of course.  The command was informed and this was not

15     information that was concealed.  Lieutenant Egbers, when he was leaving -

16     that was the lieutenant who was heading the UNPROFOR force in Kasaba -

17     received a receipt, other than the list of equipment, also a receipt that

18     he left those two vehicles in Nova Kasaba."

19             Now, was that when he was -- where was he returning to at that

20     stage?  Was he going to Potocari or was he going to Belgrade?  Because

21     you said the vehicles were used when they went to Belgrade earlier.  When

22     did he receive this receipt?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They stayed until the 14th or the

24     15th of July in Kasaba, and then they went to the Potocari base.  I think

25     that at around the 20th of July, the entire DutchBat left the Potocari

Page 12679

 1     area, and as far as I can remember, they went to Belgrade.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  And you said earlier that when they went

 3     to Belgrade, these vehicles were used, although you didn't tell us by

 4     who.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that once they left

 6     Potocari, we started to use those vehicles for the needs of the military

 7     police battalion.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that.  Do you -- am I right to say

 9     you said these vehicles were used to transport these people to Belgrade?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.  That is not correct.

11     I said that those vehicles were used only once the battalion of UNPROFOR

12     left the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  As far as I know and remember,

13     their destination was Belgrade and then from there they probably returned

14     to the Netherlands.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I have no further questions.

16             Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm sorry.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   I just wanted to show you, if I could, a 65 ter 4179.  It was a

22     document that was put to you during your cross-examination not too long

23     ago.  You were asked a number of questions both by Mr. Stojanovic and

24     also by the Chamber concerning this document, and I'm not going to go

25     over those.  But you can see this document is directed to the commander

Page 12680

 1     of the Main Staff, that would be General Mladic, for his information and

 2     the assistant commander for morale, religious and legal affairs of the

 3     Main Staff, and just for the record, can you tell us who that is?  Or was

 4     at the time?

 5        A.   The assistant commander for morale, religious and legal affairs

 6     was General Gvero.

 7        Q.   General Gvero you knew well back from 1977, when he was your

 8     teacher; right?

 9        A.   Yes.  He was the principal of the school that I attended.

10        Q.   And both he and General Miletic, to your knowledge at the time,

11     were the only senior officers at the command post on 13 July 1995; is

12     that right?

13        A.   As far as I know, yes.

14        Q.   You were asked by my colleague, Mr. Stojanovic, whether you spoke

15     to General Miletic regarding this document on 13 July 1995, and you said

16     that you probably didn't; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did you speak to General Miletic at all on 13 July 1995?

19        A.   Probably, yes.

20        Q.   Did you speak to him regarding the prisoners that were under your

21     control as is indicated in this document?

22        A.   Whether we discussed the prisoners specifically or something

23     else, I don't know, but probably we did discuss the situation in the area

24     where I was.  That we did.

25        Q.   Well, you said, "probably you did" and then you said "you did."

Page 12681

 1     So which is it?

 2        A.   Well, when I say that I probably discussed this or spoke with

 3     General Miletic --- but if I did, then we discussed the situation which

 4     would then also include the prisoners that were in the territories in

 5     my -- in the territory in my area of responsibility.

 6        Q.   When you discussed the prisoners that were in your area of

 7     responsibility with General Miletic, what did he tell you?

 8        A.   I cannot recall the details of that conversation.  This was

 9     18 years ago.

10        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Malinic, I can't say that I'm surprised by that.  But

11     do you remember testifying in the Tolimir case at transcript page 15372,

12     and being asked by me, "Did you contact General Miletic?"  at line 19,

13     and giving this answer at line 20:

14             "In all likelihood during the 13th I did speak to

15     General Miletic."

16             And it continues:

17             "It seems he was the only general in the Main Staff command post.

18     And the other officers from the Main Staff command starting with the

19     commander as well as the Chief of Staff were outside the area of the

20     command post.  They were somewhere in the field."

21             You go on to say:

22             "We probably spoke, if you're trying to ask me whether

23     I discussed this," meaning this very document the Chamber has now in

24     front of them, "or something else, as General -- such as General Miletic

25     inquiring about the situation in Nova Kasaba, then I'd say there is a

Page 12682

 1     high probability that we did talk."

 2             So with respect to the prisoners, I ask you, what did

 3     General Miletic tell you to do with them or about them?

 4        A.   I think that General Miletic did not say anything to do with the

 5     prisoners.

 6        Q.   At the time that you spoke to him on 13 July, your entire day was

 7     consumed with securing these prisoners; right?

 8        A.   No.  That was one small part of what we did, one of the

 9     activities, but we spent most of the time protecting the front line and

10     supporting the combat operations that were underway on that day.  Part of

11     our job was to secure the prisoners of war.

12        Q.   You requested backup units to help you deal with prisoners on the

13     morning of 13 July because you only had 20 people at your disposal;

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you used the people that you asked for backup to go and man

17     the lines as opposed to the purpose for which you asked them for, which

18     was to help you secure and deal with the prisoners that were surrendering

19     in the hundreds and up to over a thousand during that day?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic?

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:

22        Q.   Is that your evidence?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is

25     misleading the witness.  I would like Mr. Vanderpuye to point to the

Page 12683

 1     witness where it was that he said that he asked for reinforcement in

 2     order to secure the prisoners and I believe that he said that his request

 3     for assistance was of a completely different nature.  In the morning on

 4     that day, he didn't have those prisoners.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you're invited to rephrase your

 6     question.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 8        Q.   Do you remember testifying that you called your Chief of Staff,

 9     Jovo Jazic, on the morning of 13 July in relation to the prisoners?

10        A.   I called the Chief of Staff because of the situation I found

11     myself in, a small number -- an insufficient number of soldiers and the

12     fact that I was unable to stop the breakthrough of the 28th Division

13     along the axis.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear exactly which

15     axis.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat what axis you referred to?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The axis Srebrenica-Tuzla, which is

18     where this group was trying a break through.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:

20        Q.   You also communicated that to your commander, General -- well,

21     then Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic that morning; right?

22        A.   I briefed him on the situation that we were in, in order to

23     justify why I was requesting reinforcement in that sector.

24        Q.   You used those units to secure the prisoners that were held at

25     the school.

Page 12684

 1        A.   This unit --

 2        Q.   Sorry, not the school - I misspoke - at the stadium and at the

 3     school which is the command post of your unit; is that correct?

 4        A.   Well, the main reason why these units -- or, rather, why

 5     I requested reinforcements of this segment that was in Kasaba was in

 6     order to prevent the breakthrough of members of the 28th Division along

 7     the axis where I was.

 8             At that time, I didn't know how many prisoners there would be.

 9     At that time, I didn't have any information as to whether there would be

10     100, 200, 300 or 500 prisoners at the stadium.  The main reason why

11     I requested reinforcements was in order to secure the facility where

12     I was.  Secondly, to take control of that communication and prevent the

13     breakthrough of members of the 28th Division.  That is the main reason

14     why I asked for reinforcements.  Now, the --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

16     portion?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last part of your

18     answer?  You said, "That is the main reason why I asked for

19     reinforcements," and then you continued by saying, "Now, the --" and what

20     you then said, could you please repeat that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the consequence of the

22     taking of prisoners or their surrender, the surrender of the members of

23     the 28th Division, and the number of prisoners in Nova Kasaba, who were

24     held at the pitch, they were the result of our attempt to stop the

25     breakthrough of members of the 28th Division towards Tuzla.

Page 12685

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 2        Q.   Okay.  This document that you have in front of you is entitled,

 3     "The procedure for treatment of war prisoners"; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And it refers to people that were in your custody, particularly a

 6     thousand members of the former 28th Division of the so-called BiH army.

 7     That's the language; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And it's accurate as to your recollection concerning the number

10     of prisoners you had at around 2.00 in the afternoon as is indicated in

11     this document; right?

12        A.   Well, the number of prisoners can best be seen in the aerial

13     photo where they were lined up at the stadium.  Whether that was 1.000 or

14     fewer, I've already said last time that this Tribunal has the means and

15     the personnel in order to be able to establish exactly the number of

16     people, but I've said that that number was, in fact, smaller than stated

17     here.

18        Q.   Okay.  You had several hundred prisoners in your custody and

19     control at around the time that this document is timed and on the date

20     that it was sent; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to tender this

23     document as well.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we do that, I would like to put a question

25     to the witness in relation to this document.  In the B/C/S version, on

Page 12686

 1     the lower left side, there is some handwriting.  Please read what you can

 2     see and identify what is written there?  No, please, it was on the

 3     screen.  Please bring it back, the original B/C/S version.  I'm only

 4     interested in that.  Can you please read that part?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Delivered at 1510, the

 6     13th of July, 1995," and there is a signature.  I cannot figure it out.

 7     I believe the first letter is M, but it's in Cyrillic script that I can

 8     read, but I can't really read exactly the last name of the person who

 9     signed this.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the English translation, I see a name Gojkovic

11     with three question marks.  It's absolutely uncertain if the translation

12     is correct.  I would like to ask you if you know a person with the name

13     Gojkovic who could possibly be the person who made this handwriting?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I don't know this

15     person Gojkovic, but in any case, that should be someone from the

16     communications department.  But I didn't know him.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That was it.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Your Honour, just to -- just for your

19     information, that individual is RM246 and that might be helpful.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You're giving evidence at this moment.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, I'm not.  I just want to direct the

22     Chamber's attention to that issue.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If that is the person.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If that is the person, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That makes it evidence, Mr. Vanderpuye --

Page 12687

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much.

 2             JUDGE ORIE: -- rather than just the reference.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I do have -- well, I do want to tender this

 4     document.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No objections, Mr. Stojanovic?

 6             Then the number would be, Madam Registrar?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 4179 receives P1558, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  Now, we have seen a

 9     document with a related in its content, Mr. Stojanovic.  I don't think

10     that you tendered that.  Do you intend to do that or does the Prosecution

11     intend to do that?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The number was 65 ter 4026.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Indeed, Mr. President I did intend to tender

14     that document but I wasn't finished yet, unless I'm finished.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No, of course, Mr. Stojanovic used it as well so

16     I wondered whether that will be part of the evidence soon, yes or no.

17     I leave it in your hands, though.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I was going to go to it next.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then we'll wait for that,

20     Mr. Stojanovic.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If I could have

23     65 ter 4026 -- wait, I think I have to -- I have to call it up using the

24     document ID number.  Sorry.

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 12688

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  I think I've got it.  I'll have to

 2     call up 65 ter 4026 and I understand we have a revised translation

 3     uploaded.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it was not yet there at the end of the previous

 5     session but apparently now it is.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Maybe we can just check it if we go to page 2.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 2 of the English.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Of the English, yes, thank you, Mr. President.

 9     Oh, no.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  This is what I saw [overlapping speakers]

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay, the document ID is 00917860-ET.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And now page 2 in the English.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  There we are.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:

15        Q.   Okay.  All right.  So now we can see the stamp and we can see the

16     received date, et cetera.  What I wanted to ask you about was item

17     number 4 and item number 4, as you can see, relates to the entry of local

18     and foreign journalists, essentially being prohibited except for

19     journalists of the Main Staff press centre.  Do you know under what

20     sector the Main Staff press centre fell back in July 1995?

21        A.   I believe it was -- it fell under the morale sector, that

22     department.

23        Q.   The morale sector was headed by General Gvero, one of the

24     generals that you said was at the Main Staff command post on

25     13 July 1995; correct?

Page 12689

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   General Gvero was also indicated on the previous document

 3     I showed you, which is P1558, that's the 13 July document that was sent

 4     1510 hours and timed at 1400 hours, concerning the thousand prisoners in

 5     your custody.  General Gvero's name -- I mean his position, at least, is

 6     indicated on that document as a person to receive the information

 7     proposed by the assistant commander for security and intelligence; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And as far as you're aware, the journalists that you saw at the

10     football stadium on the 13th were accompanied by members of the press

11     centre of the Main Staff of the VRS, which is why you let them in; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And so [Realtime transcript read in error "soon"] they would have

14     been authorised by the Main Staff of the VRS under the auspices of

15     General Gvero's sector to be present on the 13th of July, 1995, filming

16     what was going on; right?

17        A.   Well, I assume that's the case.  They had the authority, and they

18     were the only ones who could approve the filming of something, so I'm

19     referring to the General or rather the Main Staff.

20        Q.   This document that we are looking at here is directed to the

21     command of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment, amongst several other

22     units; right?  And that would be your command?

23        A.   Of the 65th regiment, yes, that was my command.

24        Q.   And if I'm not mistaken, your recollection is that you didn't

25     receive this document or the assignments that are indicated in it; is

Page 12690

 1     that right?

 2        A.   If I can recollect this, not in this format.  This is an order

 3     issued to the regiment.

 4        Q.   So if you were to receive tasks related to this order, they would

 5     come through your commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic, at the time, or

 6     the deputy or Chief of Staff of the regiment, Colonel Jovo Jazic; is that

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you receive orders or instructions from either

10     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic or Jovo Jazic related to anything that you see

11     in this order from General Mladic, to the best of your recollection?  And

12     if you don't remember, just say you don't remember.

13        A.   I can't remember.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document

16     as well.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I understand that I have to -- may I -- I would

19     like to apply to replace the translation prior to tendering it,

20     Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think until it's MFI'd or until it's -- that

22     you're still -- but if the old one is still there, then you would need

23     approval to change it, but let me just consult with Madam Registrar.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  There are two options, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Either you

Page 12691

 1     do it within a second and then we'll admit what is then the English

 2     translation, or otherwise you have it now uploaded as a separate

 3     document, we admit it, and then you ask later for it to be replaced, and

 4     I think that permission will be granted to do that.  So let's perhaps

 5     proceed at this moment on the basis of what we find under this number in

 6     e-court.  Madam Registrar?  You have given the number already.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  No, I haven't, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you haven't.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  So document 04026 receives reserve number P1559,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P1559 is admitted into evidence.  We expect soon a

12     request for replacing the English translation.

13             Mr. Vanderpuye?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions?

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Just bear with me for one second.  I lost my

17     place.

18        Q.   You were asked a series of questions about this list that you say

19     was prepared in relation to the prisoners at the school.  Now, in your

20     prior testimony, you did -- you were presented with a photograph, an

21     aerial image, of the football stadium.  Do you recall that and having

22     marked that exhibit in court?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  For the benefit of the Chamber, the discussion

Page 12692

 1     concerning that is at transcript pages 15349 through 15351 in the

 2     witness's prior testimony, which I think is P1555.

 3        Q.   I just want to show you one other document, and that's P1280.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document is under seal, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Definitely shouldn't be shown to the public.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   This is another intercept, and it's from 1602 in the afternoon.

 8     It's a conversation between X and Y - hopefully we'll have the English up

 9     in a minute - 1602 in the afternoon of 13 July and it refers to an

10     "extension down at Kasaba, 394," that's what X says, and Y acknowledges

11     that, and then X says, "Where Malinic's unit is, they said that there is

12     some 1500 gathered at the stadium."  And we see the response and he

13     repeats it, "There are some 1500 at the stadium in Kasaba," and so on and

14     so forth.

15             To your recollection, is that accurate at that time of day?

16     That's about a half an hour after the document that was sent by

17     General Savcic or Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic was timed.

18        A.   No, that is not correct data.

19        Q.   Okay.  With respect to the list that you compiled, you said that

20     you gave it to Jovo Jazic, Colonel, your Chief of Staff, I mean, rather,

21     the Chief of Staff of the regiment; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   When was that?

24        A.   Perhaps at around the 20th of July.  I don't know the exact date.

25        Q.   So for about a week, you had custody of that list at the

Page 12693

 1     battalion command; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Based on your knowledge of the events concerning these prisoners,

 4     did you come into any information as to what happened to them between the

 5     time that you compiled that list and the time that you gave the list over

 6     to Jovo Jazic on or around the 20th of July, 1995?

 7        A.   I did not have precise information about what happened to the

 8     prisoners from the Kasaba stadium.

 9        Q.   Since you turned the list over to Colonel Jovo Jazic, is it fair

10     to say that you've never seen that list again?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Is it fair to say that you've never seen any video footage that

13     you say was shot by members of the press acting within the auspices of

14     the press centre of the Main Staff of the VRS on 13 July 1995 at or

15     around the stadium where you were securing at least a thousand prisoners?

16        A.   No.  I didn't have the possibility because there was no TV signal

17     in Kasaba, and for a while there was also no electricity.

18        Q.   Have you ever seen the footage that you say was shot on that day

19     at that time, to this day?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Malinic.  I have no further questions for you.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President, and

23     Your Honours.

24                           Questioned by the Court:

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I have a few more questions.  The first,

Page 12694

 1     I asked you what was the distance between Milici and Nova Kasaba and

 2     I think you said 2 to 3 kilometres.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That still is your testimony?

 5        A.   Well, I don't know to the metre but I do stand by what I said.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could I invite the parties to agree on the

 7     distance between Milici and Nova Kasaba?  It should be a matter which is

 8     such that it should be resolved without further dispute.

 9             When could we hear from the parties?  And I am talking about the

10     distance by road from the one place to the other.  And for Nova Kasaba, I

11     would prefer to have it done in relation to the football pitch.

12             Then I have one other question for you.  I was a bit puzzled by

13     one of your previous answers.  Were you asked by Mr. Vanderpuye that.

14             "... as far as you were aware, the journalists you saw at the

15     football stadium..."  that "... they were accompanied by members of the

16     press centre of the Main Staff, and that is why you let them in..."

17             You answered:

18             "Yes."

19             The next question was:

20             "Soon they would have been authorised by the Main Staff of the

21     VRS under the auspices of General Gvero's sector to be present on the

22     13th of July, 1995, filming what was going on; right?"

23             And then you said:

24             "Well, I assume that's the case.  They had the authority, and

25     they were the only ones who could approve the filming of something.  So

Page 12695

 1     I'm referring to the General or, rather, to the Main Staff."

 2             I understand that you are saying, Those I saw on that day,

 3     journalists filming, were the ones I assume who got permission later on

 4     that day.  Is that how I have to understand your answer?

 5        A.   No.  No.  And I didn't say that.  What I said was that the order

 6     for the filming came to me from Jazic and that those crews were given

 7     permission to record.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what you said earlier.  But I'm now reading

 9     and that's exactly what created some confusion, the answers you gave to

10     Mr. Vanderpuye's questions.  And I read them literally.  The reason why

11     I'm asking questions is because indeed you said something different

12     before.

13             Mr. Vanderpuye, or is -- am I mistaken by --

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No you're absolutely correct.  The problem is

15     I think I was mistranscribed.  Because my question was, "So they would

16     have been authorised" and not "soon," and that's, I think, part of the

17     problem.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But even an authorisation by the higher up levels.

19     So let me then again put to you what the question was, but wrongly

20     transcribed although only in a detail, that they, you saw there, there,

21     and which you said were accompanied by the members of the press centre,

22     that you assumed that those were the ones who were authorised to be

23     there.  That's at least -- I could read it again to you in its entirety,

24     if you would prefer.

25        A.   No, no.  I completely understand.  Yes.

Page 12696

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you assumed that they were there, those

 2     who, as you've seen in the document, later received authorisation to be

 3     there.  That was your assumption, is that correctly understood?

 4        A.   No.  I think that you misunderstood me.  They had authorisation

 5     to come and film.  They already came with this authorisation to come and

 6     film.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Authorisation by whom?

 8        A.   Authorisation from the Main Staff, and in that situation, from

 9     General Gvero, because the press centre was part of the organ that he was

10     head of.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I understand that.  You said they had already

12     permission, that's why they were there.  But that permission, as you said

13     they had, was not in line with what we see in the order later that day.

14     Do you have an explanation for that?  That they were there, where we see

15     later an order from the same competent authority, which, as a matter of

16     fact does not allow them to be there?

17        A.   I am unable to comment on the difference in the order from the

18     same organ.  I don't know what happened for the order to change so that

19     the filming would not be permitted.  They were doing their job, the crews

20     that were there.  They were interviewing the prisoners, they were filming

21     that entire area during the time that they were there, completely

22     everything.  They were -- those journalists who were working in front of

23     the cameras were conducting interviews with certain prisoners.  This is

24     what has stuck in my mind.  With whom, who, and how, that's something

25     that I cannot say.  I don't know.

Page 12697

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And later that day, the order is that only

 2     journalists of the Main Staff of the VRS could be allowed in.  Do you

 3     have any explanation why that changed so much during that day, if it did,

 4     because we saw an earlier document which goes in the same direction.

 5        A.   I have no explanation, Mr. President.  I'm not the person able to

 6     comment on orders of superiors, so I'm unable to tell you what the reason

 7     for that was.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any possibility that the journalists you

 9     saw during the day, doing their job there, that these were exclusively

10     journalists of the Main Staff of the VRS and not any outsiders?

11        A.   No.  There is no possibility of that because I already said that

12     there were different TV crews.  It was not just those from the

13     Main Staff.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Stojanovic, have our questions triggered any need for further

16     questions or the questions in re-examination?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I put on the record that a revised English

19     translation of P1559 has been uploaded in e-court and that therefore

20     you -- I hereby order Madam Registrar to replace the existing P1559

21     English translation, which was doc ID 0092-0086 with the revised version

22     of the English translation uploaded as doc ID 0091-7860-ET.

23             This then concludes your testimony in this Court.

24             Mr. Malinic, I would like to thank you very much for coming to

25     The Hague and for having answered the questions that were put to you by

Page 12698

 1     the parties, and I wish you a safe return home again.  We will move into

 2     closed session in order to allow you to leave the courtroom.

 3                           [Closed session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12699

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21             Witness 269, before you give evidence in this Court, the Rules

22     require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out

23     to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Page 12700

 1                           WITNESS:  RM269

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Witness.  Please be seated.  Witness,

 4     some protective measures apply in relation to your testimony.  The

 5     protective measures being face distortion, voice distortion and

 6     pseudonym.  No one will hear your own voice outside this courtroom, no

 7     one will see your face outside this courtroom, and we'll not address you

 8     by your name but we'll address you as Witness RM269.  Apart from that,

 9     I would like to inform you about the following.

10             I'll read the gist of a rule which is applicable in this

11     Tribunal.  If you, as a witness, if you would object to making any

12     statement, that is to answer a question, which might tend to incriminate

13     yourself, then you may address the Chamber.  Now, we still could compel

14     you to answer that question, but then those answers could not be used as

15     evidence in subsequent procedures.

16             I just want you to be aware of that right to object if that would

17     be -- if that would apply to any of your answers in relation to the

18     questions put to you.  There is one exception.  If you would not tell us

19     the truth, then your testimony could be used against you if you were --

20     would lie, or if you would violate the solemn declaration you have just

21     made a minute ago.

22             Are you -- do you understand this?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you'll now first be examined, although today

25     only for a very limited time, by Ms. Hochhauser.

Page 12701

 1             Ms. Hochhauser, you may proceed.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

 4        Q.   And, Witness, thank you for your patience in waiting to begin

 5     your testimony.  I know that you do speak some -- speak and understand

 6     some English, so I'm going to ask you to always make sure to wait until

 7     the B/C/S translation is finished and you've heard the complete question

 8     in your own language, okay?

 9             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Can we please have 65 ter 28972 under seal on

10     the monitor.

11        Q.   When you can -- is there something appearing on the monitor in

12     front of you?

13        A.   No.  Now I see it.

14        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us, please, whether that accurately records

15     your name and date of birth?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I tender this Exhibit 289 --

18     excuse me.  28972 under seal.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28972 receives number P1560 under seal,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P1560 is admitted under seal.

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

24        Q.   Witness, you previously testified before this Tribunal in the

25     Popovic case; is that correct?

Page 12702

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Before coming to testify in this case, did you have the

 3     opportunity to listen to the audio recording of your testimony in the

 4     Popovic case?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And were your answers in that case both truthful and accurate?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Was there anything upon listening to that audio recording that

 9     you wanted to change or correct about your answers?

10        A.   I don't think so.

11        Q.   If you were asked the same questions today that you were asked

12     then during that trial, would you give in substance the same answers?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 28971 under seal

15     which is relevant excerpts from that testimony as well as the one

16     associated exhibit which is a photograph, 65 ter 04953.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that there are no objections.

18             Madam Registrar?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28971 receives number P1561, and

20     document 04953 receives number P1562, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Both are admitted into evidence.  Any need to have

22     the first one under seal?  Or the second one.

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  The second one there is no need, Judge, that's

24     04953, the first one which is the testimony, under seal.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, P1561 is admitted under seal.  P1562 is

Page 12703

 1     admitted as a public exhibit.  Please proceed.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, if I might read a brief public

 3     summary?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  In July of 1995, RM269 was in the VRS.  After

 6     the fall of Srebrenica, RM269 was at the elementary school in Orahovac.

 7     At the school, RM269 saw Jasikovac, the commander of the Zvornik Brigade

 8     military police, as well as Drago Nikolic, chief of security for the

 9     Zvornik Brigade, along with members of the Zvornik Brigade military

10     police and Zvornik Brigade soldiers.

11             Muslim prisoners arrived at the Orahovac school and were taken

12     into the gymnasium.  After several hours, the prisoners were taken from

13     the gymnasium bound and loaded by military police into a truck with their

14     hands tied.  The truck drove out of the school yard and turned in the

15     direction of Tuzla, and each time after the truck left, shots could be

16     heard, after which the truck returned empty and would take more

17     prisoners.  This continued until the gym was emptied of prisoners.

18             RM269 observed military police officers from the Zvornik Brigade

19     on these -- running -- running in proximity to the truck on these trips

20     and heard them say that the prisoners who had been taken away had been

21     killed.

22             The following day, RM269 was sent to the school in Rocevic.  At

23     Rocevic prisoners were already in the school and the witness observed

24     dead bodies of Muslim prisoners dressed in civilian clothing.  Eventually

25     the prisoners from Rocevic were boarded on to trucks and the witness

Page 12704

 1     later learned that they were executed in Kozluk.

 2             That concludes my summary, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.  We have a couple of

 4     minutes left for a few questions.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.  If we could please move into private

 6     session?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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Page 12705











11 Page 12705 redacted. Private session.
















Page 12706

 1   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Closed session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of June,

16                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.