Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12938

 1                           Wednesday, 19 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  The Chamber has not

10     heard of any preliminaries to be raised.  Therefore, could the witness be

11     escorted into the courtroom.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13                           WITNESS:  DRAGOMIR KESEROVIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Keserovic.  I'd like to remind you

16     that you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you'll speak the

17     truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18             Mr. Lukic will now continue his cross-examination.

19             Mr. Lukic.  If you're ready, please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

22        Q.   Good morning, General.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   Yesterday, you told us something about Major Malinic telling you

25     at the Nova Kasaba stadium or football pitch, that there were some 2 and

Page 12939

 1     a half thousand prisoners.  Do you remember that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   In your testimony of the 12th of June 2013, Major Malinic said

 4     the following.  I'll read it out.  It is the transcript in this case,

 5     Wednesday, the 12th of June.  I have a four-digit number for the page.

 6     Well, I'll provide an exact reference because I seem to be missing a

 7     digit.  In any case, it is lines 17 through 20.  My learned friend,

 8     Mr. Vanderpuye asked the following:

 9             "Q. Did you have at Nova Kasaba between 1500 and 2.000 prisoners

10     to your recollection at around 5.30 in the afternoon of 13 July 1995?

11             "A. Between 1.000 and 1200 members of the 28th Division were

12     taken prisoner at Kasaba."

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry for interrupting and I think it's just

14     a translation issue because we are getting "that in your testimony," and

15     I'm thinking it's -- it must have been the testimony of Malinic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  It's Major Malinic --

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah.

18             MR. LUKIC:  -- testimony.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So I don't know what the witness is getting but

20     we all got that you're referring to his testimony.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

22             Witness what was just read to you was the testimony of

23     Mr. Malinic, not your testimony.  If there is any misunderstanding, then

24     we stand hereby corrected.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

Page 12940

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And perhaps you start again with the question and

 3     answer.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

 5        Q.   Did you understand I was reading from Major Malinic's testimony?

 6     Is it clear that I was reading from Major Malinic's testimony?

 7        A.   Yes, and that's how I understood it.

 8        Q.   Were you at the football pitch in Nova Kasaba?

 9        A.   No.  I was not at the football pitch in Nova Kasaba.  I met with

10     Malinic along the road at the fork towards the school where the

11     MP Battalion was, not at the football pitch.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, Madam Registrar informed me that you were

13     reading from transcript page 12611, lines 17 to 20.  Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Would you allow for the possibility that you

16     either misheard what Major Malinic told you or that you remembered it

17     incorrectly, since that information seems to have come from him?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Anything is possible.  That is an improperly

20     phrased question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I could answer that question.  You could

22     never exclude for the possibility that.  This is common knowledge,

23     I would say.  Please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Would you allow for the possibility that

Page 12941

 1     Major Malinic was in a better position to describe the number of people

 2     who were held at the football pitch in Nova Kasaba?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the same.  I can answer that question.

 4     But everyone could allow for that possibility.  Of course, there is a

 5     strong suggestion that therefore it's better.  The Chamber of course will

 6     have to consider that.  But to ask this witness whether you could exclude

 7     the possibility that someone knew better, of course you can't.  It's a

 8     useless question.  Please proceed.

 9             It's argumentative to some extent because what you would say, and

10     that's perhaps a very valid argument, if he was closer, if he was there,

11     would he be in a better position.  Don't ask this witness.  Make it a

12     valid argument perhaps.

13             MR. LUKIC:  But we heard this question like this pretty often in

14     this trial, too.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And usually there was not made many objections

16     to it.  Now, objections are made to it and I think that's the right time

17     to tell everyone who wants to put a similar question that it's a waste of

18     time.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And if I can add to that, don't hesitate to make

24     objections to some of the questions by the Prosecution.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

Page 12942

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Another thing you testified to as Major Malinic

 2     having told you is a situation where, in your words, Major Malinic told

 3     you that General Mladic came along and told him to stop making lists of

 4     those captured at Nova Kasaba.  You do recall having testified to that

 5     effect on the 18th?

 6        A.   Yes.  When the commander of the Main Staff came along,

 7     General Mladic, that is, the making of lists or the process of

 8     registration was halted.

 9        Q.   We know you were not present when it happened since at the time

10     you were not in the area of Srebrenica.  I wanted to read out to you what

11     Major Malinic said the other day on the 12th of June this year.  When

12     asked to describe it by my learned friend, Mr. Vanderpuye, he indeed

13     provided an answer on page 12607.  I was working on it last night, so

14     there seems to be some confusion with the numbers.  Perhaps 13607.  In

15     any case, I will provide the exact reference later on as well.  Starting

16     with line 2.

17             "Q. And when General Mladic arrived at Nova Kasaba and addressed

18     the prisoners, was the process of making a list of prisoners ongoing?"

19             Major Malinic answered:

20             "A. The process of making a list lasted from the moment of

21     capture until the soldiers of the 28th Division went off in buses and

22     trucks.  When General Mladic happened to be at the stadium, he addressed

23     the prisoners and at that point in time, the taking down of the names of

24     the prisoners had to be interrupted because he was addressing all members

25     of the 28th Division at the stadium or at the pitch."

Page 12943

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, this is on page 12607.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] At that moment, Major Malinic abandons the

 4     topic, but on the next page, 12608, Judge Orie asked, taking him back to

 5     the topic, in line 10.  So Judge Orie's question:

 6             "After Mr. Mladic had addressed the persons on this football

 7     pitch, was then the listing of names continued?

 8             "A. I think that it did.  There was no reason why the process of

 9     listing prisoners should not continue."

10             [Interpretation] I wanted to ask you this:  Did you ask for an

11     additional explanation as to whether the making of lists continued after

12     General Mladic's departure?

13        A.   I do not recall whether I sought additional information as to

14     whether it was continued.  What I learned was that lists were being made

15     until General Mladic arrived and that it was interrupted at that point.

16     I have no recollection of anything pertaining to the continuation of that

17     process.

18        Q.   I'm sorry but my question was whether you asked him if they

19     continued, if you recall.

20        A.   No, I can't.  I don't remember.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, that question was answered.  It started

23     with, "I do not recall that I sought additional information."  That is

24     asking for more information.  Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

Page 12944

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Are you familiar with or did you learn at a

 2     later stage that Major Malinic did not have sufficient means to provide

 3     security for the prisoners so that they could stay in the same location

 4     during the night?  He did not have a fence, he did not have enough men to

 5     guard the perimeter, he did not have lights:  Did you learn anything to

 6     that effect?

 7        A.   In terms of numbers and amount of resources, that's really

 8     something I can't testify to at this point.  But based on the documents

 9     about the situation in the military police units, one could see that

10     among other units, the MP Battalion of the Main Staff did not have

11     sufficient resources.  In terms of shortage of soldiers, I was aware of

12     it because the company undergoing training was also used to be assigned

13     to the blockade of a part of the road between Nova Kasaba and Konjevic

14     Polje.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You also said that Major Malinic told you that he was

16     told by General Mladic that the people from the football pitch would be

17     transferred to Bratunac.  Perhaps briefly we can look at P1574 in

18     e-court.  It is the interview of Major Malinic.  We are only interested

19     in two lines.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 26, lines 8 and 9 in both

21     versions.  It is the good page in English but I don't see it in the B/C/S

22     version.  This is not the right page.  Yet, this morning when I counted

23     the pages, both versions had it on page 26 in e-court.

24        Q.   I'll read out from the English so that you receive

25     interpretation.

Page 12945

 1             [In English] "And did you know where these prisoners were being

 2     taken to?"

 3             Answer:

 4             "No."

 5             [Interpretation] According to the interview provided by

 6     Major Malinic, he himself did not know.  He had no information where the

 7     prisoners were to be transferred to.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it's not the same.  Of course, I've not

 9     the whole of the statement on my mind at this moment, but what someone

10     tells you that will happen and what then happens are two different

11     things.  Please keep that in mind.  Therefore, you're not reflecting the

12     evidence accurately.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And we have the relevant page now on the screen

14     and in B/C/S -- in B/C/S too.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Now we do have it.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These are lines 12 and 13 in B/C/S.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But I have to read the context to know exactly, but

19     if you single out two lines, where someone is taken or where someone says

20     people are to be taken is not the same.

21             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation].

22        Q.   Since the question seems to follow the line -- the previous line

23     of questioning, in terms of some issues that we were instructed not to

24     ask about, I'll change topics.  I wanted to ask you something about the

25     MUP units that were present in the area at the time.  Although I am aware

Page 12946

 1     of the fact that you weren't there and I don't know how privy you were to

 2     the operation that was carried out.  However, I have a few general

 3     questions.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  That misstates the evidence.  He was

 5     there, if you're talking about the Bratunac area, so I -- I don't know

 6     what you're referring to.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  No, I was thinking about the dates.  Since I'm going

 8     to ask about the 11th of July, that he was not in that area at that time.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I agree with that.  I apologise.

11             MR. LUKIC:  I wasn't precise enough.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You've accepted the apologies, I take it.  Let's

13     proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   So between the 6th and 11 July, you were not in Srebrenica or in

16     the area of Srebrenica and I am aware of it, but did you know that the

17     MUP units which arrived in the area were not placed within the

18     communications system used by the Drina Corps in that operation?

19        A.   No, I did not have such information.

20        Q.   Is it correct that according to the law on home affairs, the MUP

21     units do retain the autonomy of command in combat activities as well?

22     Are you familiar with that?

23        A.   I am familiar with the ways and means through which the MUP units

24     may be placed under the command of the commander of a given operation,

25     and this is solely pursuant to a written decision issued by the Minister

Page 12947

 1     of the Interior.

 2        Q.   In your work in cooperation with the commission for

 3     investigations into Srebrenica, did you ever come across such a document

 4     whereby the MUP units were engaged in Krivaja 95 and subordinated to the

 5     command of the Drina Corps?

 6        A.   I don't recall seeing that.

 7        Q.   Generally speaking, were there problems encountered in the use of

 8     police units in the course of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 9        A.   Yes, there were.  And quite frequently.  Precisely for the fact

10     that there was a need to have them involved in specific operations, and

11     due to the fact that they were even present in the area where they were

12     supposed to be engaged, there were frequent and almost regular

13     occurrences where, before such use, they had to wait for four to five

14     days before such a decision was issued.  I, myself, had experience in

15     having to involve these units, but they could not be involved before the

16     minister had produced such a document.

17        Q.   Is it also correct that these units never fit into the military

18     structure properly?

19        A.   It is difficult for me to draw a generally acceptable conclusion.

20     What I know from my practical experience is that we were two different

21     systems that were at odds on many issues.

22        Q.   I'd like to ask you about the role of the security organs in the

23     work of the military police.  Is it correct that some of the duties

24     incumbent upon the security organ may be delegated to the military police

25     and that he may ask them to perform these tasks without asking the

Page 12948

 1     commander for the permission to do so?

 2        A.   Yes.  And I spoke about it too.  These are specific tasks and

 3     duties arising primarily from the purview of the services we referred to,

 4     crime prevention services, pre-criminal charges, inquiries and the

 5     involvement of military courts, and some other affairs from the purview

 6     of these services.  The chief of the security organ could assign such

 7     tasks to a unit of the military police that fell within his command or

 8     his HQ.

 9        Q.   The other aspect of the role of the security organs in the

10     military police is that of a deputy commander for -- assistant commander

11     for security, right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And what is his specific role in that capacity?

14        A.   His role is multi-fold.  He will issue proposals for the decision

15     of the commander and will propose various ways and means of using the

16     military police that the commander will then decide upon.  He's also to

17     monitor the ways in which the military police unit is performing the task

18     that it was given by the commander.  As assistant commander, he's also

19     responsible for combat readiness.  That's to say the combat readiness of

20     that unit, its level of training, that it -- making sure that it is

21     properly equipped.  And all these tasks are ones that the security organ

22     will have in respect of a military police unit.

23        Q.   The third role of a security organ in my understanding is -- is

24     drafting orders, right?

25        A.   Well, as an organ down the professional line, the security organ

Page 12949

 1     will draft that part of the order that will relate to the use of the

 2     military police unit.  It is up to the commander to then subsequently

 3     accept it or modify it, and then issue an order that he sees fit.  At any

 4     rate, these professional organs, specialist organs, are there to draft

 5     all the documents that a commander is entitled to issue.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  What is the relationship between the security organ

 7     at the brigade level and the security organ in the Main Staff?  Is that

 8     relationship a direct one or must it actually necessarily go through the

 9     security organ at corps level?

10        A.   Where the brigade is part of a corps, there will certainly not be

11     a direct relationship between the security organ at brigade level and

12     that of the Main Staff.  Rather, it will go through the security organ at

13     corps level.

14        Q.   Specifically speaking, Colonel Beara of the Main Staff, could he

15     directly contact Momir Nikolic of the Bratunac Brigade?

16        A.   Under the rules that were in force, he was not able to and he was

17     not supposed to.  It may have so happened in practice that a certain

18     level would be side-stepped but that was not proper.  It was not to be

19     done that way.

20        Q.   Under the rules in force, is it also the case that this could not

21     work the other way around either?  That's to say, Momir Nikolic could not

22     have contacted directly Colonel Beara, right?

23        A.   Yes, that's right.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a question in that respect to the

25     witness?  The question about making contact up the line or down the line

Page 12950

 1     is not very specific.  Could you explain what is your understanding of

 2     having contact or making contact in comparison to issuing orders and

 3     reporting?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood Mr. Lukic's question

 5     to mean that contact meant issuing orders and reporting.  That's how

 6     I understood the term "contact" in the question.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yesterday, you testified about the professional

 8     duties of the security organs of different levels in the VRS.  In

 9     professional terms, in comparison to command responsibility, was it

10     possible to have direct contact between the different levels, the

11     security organs in different levels of the units?  I'm not talking about

12     orders now.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Professional duties would also

14     be dealt with at appropriate levels.  Security administration, then the

15     corps security organ, and then down the chain to the brigades; and the

16     other way around, reporting from the brigade up to the corps and from the

17     corps to the staff.  So that would apply to professional duties too.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you saying that there was no contact between

19     the security organs of different levels, brigade, corps, and Main Staff?

20     That means without going through the commanders of the different levels.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did have contact, but official

22     contacts and professional duties were dealt with always by the superior

23     security organ contacting the one immediately the level down, and, of

24     course, going up the chain, it would be the security organ at a certain

25     level contacted -- contacting the immediate superior.

Page 12951

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is the immediate superior in that respect?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we are talking about the

 3     security issues related to the staff, the chief of security of a -- of

 4     the command which is immediately superior would be the immediate

 5     superior.  If we have the chief of security of a brigade reporting, he

 6     will be reporting to the chief of security of the corps.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   I'd like us to briefly discuss command over the military police.

10     Who is in command of the military police, say in the Bratunac Brigade?

11        A.   The company commander or the MP company commander or the MP

12     platoon commander will be the immediate commander, and he will receive

13     his orders from the brigade commander.

14        Q.   Under the rules, was it possible for Vujadin Popovic to come from

15     the Drina Corps and have under his command the military police of the

16     Bratunac Brigade?

17        A.   No.  It was not.

18        Q.   Is it also correct that Colonel Beara of the Main Staff was not

19     able to have command over the military police of the Bratunac Brigade?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Who proposes to the commander of the Bratunac Brigade the ways in

22     which the military police would be used?

23        A.   The chief of security of the brigade; in the instant case,

24     Momir Nikolic.

25        Q.   Thank you.  According to the rules, was it possible for

Page 12952

 1     Momir Nikolic to communicate independently and have direct dealings with

 2     Popovic and Beara without consulting and receiving permission from the

 3     brigade commander?

 4        A.   I am not quite clear about the tasks that you are referring to.

 5     They could resolve issues from the sole jurisdiction of security organs,

 6     that is to say certain counterintelligence issues together.  In that

 7     situation, they would be able to meet all three of them.  However, when

 8     it comes to the command of a military police unit, they could not do so

 9     under no circumstances.

10        Q.   We are nearing the end.  Bear with me for a moment to check if I

11     have any questions left for you.

12             Let's briefly look at another document that you've already been

13     shown.  It's P1578.  While we are waiting for it, it's a document where

14     one page is handwritten.  In the English version, we need page 4,

15     paragraph number 3.  In the B/C/S version, we need page 2.  That's how it

16     was uploaded in e-court.  Paragraph 3.  What we see here in this passage,

17     which you say was written by General Mladic, is the following:

18             "No one has the right to either stop or delay, let alone file

19     away in archives, any case.  No one is or can be so wealthy so as to be

20     above the law.  Anyone who breaks the law and commits a punishable act

21     must be held responsible.  Commanders do not have the right to prevent

22     security organs and members of the military police from doing their

23     duties.  On the contrary, they are duty-bound to assist them as much as

24     they can."

25             In the work of security affairs, and even previously, this

Page 12953

 1     document is dated -- just a moment.  It's dated back to the period

 2     immediately preceding the events in Srebrenica.  Were you ever in a

 3     situation to come across security organs preventing their own

 4     subordinates from performing their duties, any such irregularities?

 5        A.   Yes, this document dates back to March of 1995.  As I said

 6     yesterday, I participated in its drafting once the situation was

 7     assessed.  There were cases, and this made the situation more difficult

 8     for security organs and military police services in their attempts to

 9     resolve cases, especially the perpetration of crimes in the area of

10     responsibility of these units.  Very frequently political interests and

11     influences would clash on this score, where political leaders in a

12     certain community would have requests of the army not to investigate

13     certain cases.

14             Now, under the Law on Criminal Procedure, the police was bound to

15     document and investigate and report on anything that came to its notice,

16     everything had -- every such act or crime had to be dealt with through to

17     the end.  In our reports, I think we did cite specific examples where

18     units encountered problems in investigating misconduct and crimes, and I

19     believe that item 3, as it is worded, was formulated as a result of all

20     these events, as it was worded by General Mladic.

21        Q.   In your line of work, did you gain the impression that

22     General Mladic sought at any point in time privileges for himself or to

23     be placed above the law?

24        A.   I did not gain such an impression, but then I wasn't really

25     someone who could grant him any sort of privileges.  The only thing that

Page 12954

 1     I could do as a commander was to discharge my duties as best as I could,

 2     if that could be considered some sort of privilege for him.

 3        Q.   Let me finish with a rather marginal question.  You were asked if

 4     Colonel Beara was loyal to General Mladic.  You tried to explain this

 5     issue but I don't think you finished what you wanted to say, so I'll ask

 6     you now:  Was it correct that Beara was a superior to General Tolimir in

 7     the command of the naval district?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Was it correct that Beara objected with General Mladic for the

10     fact that Tolimir was now his superior in the 1990s?

11        A.   I don't know if he said so to General Mladic or not.  He didn't

12     do so in my presence.  However, I did hear on a couple of occasions

13     Colonel Beara expressing disgruntlement with the fact that the situation

14     was now inverse, and I think that in some of my testimonies, I did

15     mention that.

16        Q.   General, thank you.  I have no further questions for you.

17        A.   You're welcome.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

19             Judge Fluegge has one more questions for him.

20                           Questioned by the Court:

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Keserovic, I would like to take you back to

22     the issue of the units directly attached to the Main Staff.  You

23     testified about that yesterday, especially with respect to the

24     10th Sabotage Detachment and the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.

25     Then you were asked by Mr. Lukic, and this can be found on page 12883, in

Page 12955

 1     line 15:

 2             "Q. In principle, in keeping with the principle of unity of

 3     command, would you agree that they were resubordinated to the Drina Corps

 4     in that operation?"

 5             "That operation" meaning the liberation of Srebrenica.

 6             Your answer was, I quote:

 7             "All of the units should have and probably were resubordinated to

 8     the operations commander; that is to say, the Drina Corps commander.

 9     What things were like in the field is something I don't know because

10     I was not a direct participant.  In any case, it should have been the way

11     I described."

12             Do you recall your testimony of today -- of yesterday?

13        A.   Yes.  I do recall it.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you please provide me with a reason why that

15     should have been the way that they -- these units had to be subordinated

16     to the Drina Corps commander?

17        Q.   An operation is a complex combat activity requiring the

18     engagement of several joint tactical --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Joint and tactical

20     units.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true though that operations

22     can be carried out by operational units at the level of corps and up.

23     When it is organised the way Krivaja was, where in addition to the units

24     of the Drina Corps in the operation, there was participation by certain

25     units which did not make part of that unit, then it was obligatory under

Page 12956

 1     the principle of unity of command to have all such units resubordinated

 2     for the duration of that operation to the operation commander.  They were

 3     all supposed to have been resubordinated to the Drina Corps commander.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand, but isn't that also true for units

 5     engaged in a certain action and operation, units belonging to the

 6     Ministry of Interior, the MUP?

 7        A.   Yes.  The armed forces in a time of war also encompass MUP units.

 8     Those units also should have been resubordinated to the operation

 9     commander.  I discussed a specific problem in that regard.  They would

10     only be resubordinated when ordered in written form by the Minister of

11     the Interior.  He was the only person who could order it to them, and

12     then they would be resubordinated to the military commander in question.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And that would be also in conformity with the

14     principle of unity of command, correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I have a question related to the last one.  You said

18     that it sometimes took days and days before such orders for

19     resubordination were issued.  Do you remember how that happened just

20     prior to the Krivaja operation?  Was there any specific problem at that

21     point in time, and do you have any recollection on decisions

22     resubordinating the police?

23        A.   Mr. President, as for any circumstances concerning the assembly

24     of units and resubordination at the time, it is something I don't know

25     about.  I have no such information.

Page 12957

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So you do not even know whether the minister of the

 2     interior had approved the resubordination?

 3        A.   I don't, not at the time.  I don't know what the solution was

 4     that was used at the time.  I don't know what was going on.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So we are talking about theory, nothing else?

 6        A.   Well, I explained how things should have been.  Now, what the

 7     situation was really like --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That is what I call theory, how things should be.

 9     And how things were, that is facts.  You agree with that?

10        A.   Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I don't know whether the parties could provide

12     further assistance in relation to the matters I just raised with the

13     witness, not necessarily at this very moment but --

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ms. Stewart is looking for the document from the

15     minister which has been a long part of the history of this case which

16     should come up, I think, fairly soon.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then we'll -- I'm confident that we'll

18     not be left alone with a lack of knowledge.

19             Mr. McCloskey, any questions in re-examination?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  But we have, I don't know if you

22     have a subject to deal with in two minutes, that's fine.  Otherwise we

23     will take the break first.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can try.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Do it.

Page 12958

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   I know you've seen a lot of documents over the years.  Do you

 4     recall Mr. Karnavas or anyone showing you a document dated 10 July in the

 5     name of Tomo Kovac, the acting minister of interior, which has

 6     President Karadzic authorising him to be pulled from the Trnovo

 7     battlefield and coming over to the Srebrenica battlefield to report to

 8     General Krstic on 11 July?

 9        A.   I don't recall having seen that document, but I can't exclude

10     that I have seen it either.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we try D129.

12        Q.   Might take a moment.  We see a 10 July document to the commander

13     of the Special Police Brigade.  Is that -- can you remind us what the

14     name of that person was?  You've I think mentioned him earlier in your

15     testimony.

16        A.   The commander of the Special Police Brigade at the time was

17     Goran Saric.  The Chief of Staff or his deputy was

18     Colonel Ljubisa Borovcanin.

19        Q.   Thank you.  It's the deputy that you'd mentioned.  Thank you for

20     that correction.  And we see here that it says based on the order of the

21     Supreme Commander of the Republika Srpska of the armed forces, and that

22     is who?

23        A.   It was the president of the republic, Mr. Karadzic at the time.

24        Q.   And he issues this order, and I won't read it all out, but we can

25     see that it's going from one combat operation, it's listing several

Page 12959

 1     units, it's appointing Borovcanin the deputy commander of the special

 2     brigade, and basically as we see in paragraph 4 he's supposed to go to

 3     Bratunac on 11 July.  Let's go to the next page.  And on arrival at the

 4     destination the unit commander shall contact General Krstic.  So this is

 5     Borovcanin being ordered to report to General Krstic.  Now, if, after

 6     this, Borovcanin is receiving and following orders from General Mladic,

 7     would that be an indication that he was now under the command of the

 8     army?

 9        A.   By virtue of this order, the commander of MUP forces and the

10     force itself was placed under the command of the army.

11        Q.   Okay.  One last question.  We see here in one of these

12     paragraphs, if we could go back to the first page, that he is supposed to

13     take some Serbian MUP units from the Trnovo area.  Did you ever hear

14     about Borovcanin coming to the Srebrenica area with any Serbian MUP units

15     such as the Kajmen, Plavi, or Skorpioni?

16        A.   No, no.  I have no such information.

17        Q.   All right.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, that I think settled that topic

19     for me.  I do have several other issues that were brought up that I would

20     like to be able to get into.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will do that after the break.

22             Mr. Keserovic, would you please follow the usher?  We take a

23     break of 20 minutes.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.

Page 12960

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

 4             Mr. McCloskey, could you meanwhile give us an indication of how

 5     much time you'd need?  I hardly dare to ask.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I was afraid you were going to ask, but I'm -- I

 7     have to commit myself.  I will, one hour.  Hopefully less.  But I had --

 8     there was many issues brought up and the resolution of chronology is --

 9     I'm going to make another attempt at, but if I can't do it in an hour,

10     you'll want to throw me out anyway and I'll want to leave.  So an hour

11     should do it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what they call a win-win situation these

13     days, isn't it.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Keserovic, you'll now be further re-examined by

16     Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   General, I want to take another stab at clarifying the chronology

19     and it's -- could we go to your testimony again in Tolimir, at 28995,

20     e-court page 4.  This is the part that I had read to you before.  I won't

21     read it again.  You basically say that after your -- that after your

22     Blagojevic testimony you went back to your notebook, consulted it, and

23     this should be at line 20 in the English -- of course there is only

24     English but -- we see that you consulted your notebook to sort out this

25     dilemma and you went over the notebook again.

Page 12961

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we go to the next page.

 2        Q.   Chronology of events and the dates that are noted there, although

 3     there are dates that were skipped because there were no developments on

 4     those days.  So based on that, my stay in Bratunac should have been the

 5     17th actually.  And then I ask you there, do you still have access to

 6     that notebook, and you explain at that point you did not.  Well, knowing

 7     that were you coming to testify for -- in the trial of General Mladic,

 8     did you reassert your efforts to find this notebook that was obviously

 9     very important for you in determining this issue?

10        A.   I said already in the Tolimir case that all of the written

11     material and notes of mine were taken away from the office at the moment

12     when I was removed from duty, and it was never returned to me.  It

13     includes the small notebook which was taken with the rest of the

14     notebooks.

15        Q.   I understand that.  My question was had you made any other

16     efforts, you're a general, a senior officer, to tell anyone that were you

17     coming here to testify and that you needed that notebook?

18        A.   I did not do anything in particular in that regard.  Seven years

19     is too long a time for me not to have had any access to the armed forces

20     or the Ministry of Defence, and in the meantime there had been a reform

21     and a number of changes.  So for the most part, I no longer know any of

22     those people.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let's --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, could I ask a question?  Has the

25     Prosecution undertaken any effort to get hold of the notebook?

Page 12962

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I was asking myself that same question and the

 2     answer is no.  So the answer would be equally applicable to the

 3     Prosecution.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Now, let's go to the day you were in Bratunac to try to -- might

 7     help perhaps to sort out some chronology.  You had mentioned before that

 8     you had stopped by and dealt with some issues relating to wounded, and if

 9     we could hopefully save some time by that same 65 ter number, if we could

10     go to, sorry, page 13979 and I don't have the e-court right now, I'm

11     sorry, but let me just ask you -- it should be 33.  And you -- this was

12     the question about the wounded, and you may remember Judge Nyambe read

13     back your answer and asked you another question about it.  If we look at

14     line -- it should 13979, I'm sorry.  19.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you again give the number of the 13?

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  13979.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- we have now 13879 and 979 most likely, let

18     me see whether there is -- that's not part of this document because it

19     only has 71 pages, as far as I can see.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let me -- sorry, we've had to divide

21     that into another 65 ter and that is 28996.  And -- page 40.

22        Q.   And I'll start from page 39 where your answer on a question was:

23             "From the command of the Dutch Battalion --"

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we wait until we have it on our screens?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

Page 12963

 1        Q.   And --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We are now at 13978.  Is that the page?  Or did

 3     I hear you say 979?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah.  Let's start there.  That's good.  I'll

 5     just -- the answer I want is at the bottom of the page.

 6        Q.   Where you're asked by me to go back and describe the task of

 7     Colonel Jankovic that Tolimir had issued.  And then I ask you:

 8             "What did you do after that?"

 9             And then your answer was:

10             "From the command of the Dutch Battalion, we went again to

11     Bratunac and we stopped by the health centre where the evacuation of

12     prisoners was underway organised by the ICRC.  Something was going on

13     there.  As we stopped by, somebody, I don't remember who, had separated a

14     group of the wounded.  About 20 of them.  And these were not evacuated in

15     the organisation of the ICRC.  And they eventually stayed there after the

16     column left.  And we stayed there and observed until the column of the

17     convoy of the ICRC had left.  I remember there was a certain lady, Lucy,

18     organising all this."

19             Is all that -- do you remember all that?  Is that all correct?

20        A.   Yes.  I do recall that it was so, that the process of evacuating

21     the wounded was underway.

22        Q.   And where were those wounded from the Bratunac health centre sent

23     to, as far as you know?

24        A.   I don't know where they were taken.  There were off-road vehicles

25     there with the sign of the Red Cross.  They carried some of them and

Page 12964

 1     placed them in the vehicles.  Others could walk by themselves.  And then

 2     they left Bratunac, although I don't know where they went.

 3        Q.   Did they go -- did you know whether they went in the direction of

 4     Konjevic Polje or the direction of Serbia?  If you know.

 5        A.   No, really.

 6        Q.   Okay.  If we go down the page a little bit to line 15, we see

 7     that you thought that happened in the afternoon around 2.00 or 3.00 p.m.

 8     Is that about right?

 9        A.   Yes, around that time.

10        Q.   And what happened with these -- you say on line 3 -- about 20 of

11     them, of the wounded, were separated and were not sent, where did they

12     go?

13        A.   The ones who stayed behind had not been taken out of the health

14     centre in the first place.  So at that point in time, they remained in

15     the health centre in Bratunac.  They were not taken in front of the

16     building and left there.  They were simply not carried outside at all of

17     the building.  They remained inside the health centre, the hospital.  But

18     somebody did say that there was a group of around 20.

19        Q.   And why were they separated?

20        A.   Allegedly, at least from what I could hear from the people there,

21     and from Jankovic, that they were fighters of the 28th Division who had

22     previously committed some crimes, some offences that they should be held

23     liable for.

24        Q.   And did you ever see them shipped out anywhere that day that you

25     were there, these separated men?

Page 12965

 1        A.   No, really.

 2        Q.   And do you know what happened to them?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 4477.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question.

 7             Did you consider them to be prisoners of war?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I considered them to be the

 9     wounded.  That's what they were referred to, the wounded that were placed

10     in the health centre in Bratunac.  I don't know what their status was but

11     they were under the control of the Serb authorities at that time in the

12     health centre.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  What Serb authorities?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in the territory

15     controlled by Republika Srpska and in the health centre in Bratunac.

16     When the evacuation was taking place, I could see that some were being

17     taken away while others remained, and that there was a circle of people,

18     a group of people, deciding what to do.  I didn't get involved in it but

19     from this point I can conclude that there was somebody who made a

20     decision in that regard.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That group consisted of what kind of persons?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Really, some were on stretchers, so

23     there were probably seriously wounded.  Others walked by themselves.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You said there was a circle of people, a group of

25     people, deciding what to do.  My question was, that group of people who

Page 12966

 1     decided what to do consisted of what kind of persons?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I didn't know the

 3     people.  They were engaged in negotiation with the ICRC representatives

 4     who took part in the evacuation.  I know that Colonel Jankovic spoke with

 5     them as well, but I didn't know the people whatsoever.  It was my first

 6     time in Bratunac.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Colonel Jankovic was one of them?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  He was present and he was

 9     taking part in the conversation.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Was he the only military man in that group?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say there were no other

12     persons in uniform, be it military or police.  But as far as I know,

13     I didn't see any officers.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  How do you know that you didn't see any officers?

15     Where you say, "I can't say there were no other persons in uniform,"

16     could that have been officers?  Or is it your evidence that foot soldiers

17     were engaged in negotiations with the ICRC?  Is that a possibility you

18     want to present to this Chamber?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were persons in military and

20     police uniforms.  I did not observe any visible insignia, be they

21     military or MUP officers.  It is also possible that they didn't have the

22     insignia visibly displayed although they held the rank.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Who told you that they were kept there because they

24     might have committed offences?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not sure.  I think that

Page 12967

 1     I heard this comment from Colonel Jankovic.  I believe that he said at

 2     some point that there was a request for some of these wounded to be kept

 3     behind at the health centre.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now I come back to my previous question.  Did

 5     you consider them to be prisoners of war?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hold any specific opinion

 7     as to whether they were prisoners of war or possibly the wounded who

 8     somehow came to the health centre.  How they ended up there, I really

 9     don't know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, apparently most of the wounded were

11     allowed to leave and these were apparently not allowed to leave.  Would

12     that make them prisoners of war?  Perhaps wounded prisoners of war?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if they had been deprived of

14     their right to be evacuated and taken elsewhere, we may consider them

15     prisoners or soldiers who were stripped of that right.  So we may call

16     them prisoners of war and wounded.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Who now took responsibility for those

18     prisoners of war?  Who had to take responsibility for those prisoners of

19     war, perhaps should be the first question.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in the hospital for

21     treatment.  I don't know if there was any security around the hospital.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  My first question was who had to take responsibility

23     for those prisoners of war and not to treat them but to be responsible

24     for their fate and for the obligations under the applicable rules?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were already there.  Somebody

Page 12968

 1     already had some sort of obligation in their respect.  It is the

 2     commander within whose area of responsibility they are present that is

 3     responsible for them.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Who was that in that situation?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the commander of the

 6     Bratunac Brigade.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   So let's look at this ICRC communication to the press, as they

10     call it, basically what we call a press release.  It's dated 18 July and

11     it says, ICRC evacuates 88 wounded from Bratunac and Potocari.  I'll read

12     it slowly.

13             "Three medical teams of the International Committee of the Red

14     Cross, ICRC, coming from Pale, Bijeljina and Belgrade, evacuated 88

15     wounded people from Bratunac and Potocari on 17 and 18 July.  These

16     casualties, some of them in very serious condition, were taken to Tuzla.

17     Most of them had been previously treated -- most of them had previously

18     been treated at the MSF hospital in Srebrenica.  The ICRC conducted this

19     operation with the agreement of General Milan Gvero of the Bosnian Serb

20     Army.  When all the wounded had been collected in Bratunac on the first

21     day of the evacuation, 23 of them were refused authorisation to leave.

22     The ICRC considers them to be prisoners of war and noted their identities

23     in order to be able to seek permission to visit them."

24             Is this the situation you just described?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 12969

 1        Q.   So the ICRC registered these people?

 2        A.   The document reads that that was the case.

 3        Q.   Well, you were there.  Did you see this bit of registering?

 4        A.   No, I don't recall that.

 5        Q.   Do you think it saved their lives?

 6        A.   Well, certainly, the individuals holding the status of prisoners

 7     of war, especially those registered by the ICRC, found salvation in that,

 8     regardless of the side they were on, throughout the war in Bosnia.

 9        Q.   It goes on to say, in this press release:

10             "The ICRC is also concerned about the fate of thousands of people

11     whose families displaced to Tuzla have lost all track of them.  It is

12     requesting the highest Bosnian Serb authorities to give it access to all

13     persons captured during the latest events in Srebrenica."

14             So the ICRC was aware of these missing people.  Now they are

15     telling the world about it.  Were you aware of it on the 17th of July as

16     well, all the missing men from Srebrenica referred to here?

17        A.   No.  The day that I was in Bratunac, I didn't know anything about

18     it.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 4477 receives number P1580, Your

22     Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would next go to 65 ter 13880.

25        Q.   And as we are waiting for that, I'll give you a preview.  It's

Page 12970

 1     from the RS MUP, Ministry of Interior, state security department, from

 2     Sarajevo.  It is dated 18 July, and it's to the RS deputy minister of

 3     interior personally and to the head of the RS MUP Bijeljina, public

 4     security department, personally.

 5             Now, I don't think I'm going to read the whole thing, but I think

 6     if we can take a bit of time to read it, we see that it says on the 17th

 7     of July ICRC representatives with the approval of the state and military

 8     leadership of Republika Srpska, evacuated 87 wounded and injured Muslim

 9     civilians who were accommodated at the UN Dutch Battalion base near

10     Srebrenica and the Bratunac health centre.  The Muslims taken charge of

11     were evacuated to Tuzla via Banj Brdo in the Majevica mountains.  From

12     among the group of wounded and injured, 23 Muslim men fit for military

13     service were taken out and they will be treated as prisoners of war.

14     Then it talks about filing a criminal report for war crimes and other

15     issues.  Then it goes on to describe some of the events.

16             Does this sound like the situation that you experienced, the

17     transport of a number of wounded and the holding back of some 23?

18        A.   This is probably a report about that same activity, the way this

19     is being reported on by the State Security Service of the Ministry of the

20     Interior of Republika Srpska.

21        Q.   You've used this word "probably" again.  Is there some doubt?

22     It's a pretty specific situation.

23        A.   No.  I may have used the word "probably" but what we can see from

24     this report is that this is a department of the MUP of Republika Srpska

25     reporting about it, and that it has to do with the situation concerning

Page 12971

 1     the evacuation of the wounded from Srebrenica or rather from Bratunac.

 2     There is no doubt about that.

 3        Q.   Okay.  So if these two documents are correct, you were present in

 4     Bratunac on the 17th of July when these people were evacuated and 23 were

 5     separated.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I have to object.  This is a misstatement of the

 8     evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If I remember well, the ICRC press report says the

10     17th and the 18th, whereas this report says the 17th.  Therefore, there

11     is at least some ambiguity which -- in the way in which you put it to the

12     witness is -- has disappeared.  We could have a look.  Isn't it true that

13     it says 17th and 18th of July?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  You're absolutely right, Your Honour --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please --

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- and there is one more -- one more document

17     that I can --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you put it to the witness that these two

19     documents, whether he would agree that these two documents clearly point

20     at the 17th.  They do not.  The second one does, the first one points at

21     the 17th and the 18th.  Perhaps a matter to be further explored what

22     happened exactly on the 17th and the 18th, but this is not the way you

23     can put it to the witness.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 12972

 1        Q.   Witness, can you sort it out?  Let me see if I can help you and

 2     go to one more document.  65 ter -- actually it's P1515, the Judges have

 3     seen it before.  And this is from the command of the Bratunac Brigade,

 4     the intelligence organ, the typewritten name is Momir Nikolic, the

 5     handwritten version of it, I'm sure everyone will agree, was in the

 6     initials of Radislav Jankovic.  And here we see that they are telling the

 7     Main Staff intelligence sector in the command of the Drina Corps

 8     intelligence department that:

 9             "On 18 July at 1515, 22 wounded Muslim prisoners from the 28th

10     Division were evacuated with a police escort provided by the Drina Corps

11     from the health centre in Bratunac.  One wounded Muslim remaining out of

12     the 23 remained after the evacuation, which was organised by the ICRC,

13     was handed over to the Zvornik CSB.  He's an enemy soldier, Osman

14     Halilovic, concerning whom we had earlier information that he had

15     participated in a massacre of civilians which he himself admitted during

16     the investigation."

17             So earlier you said you didn't know what happened to these 23,

18     now 22.  Are these the people from your looking at this document that

19     were separated in your presence?

20        A.   They were not separated or singled out.  I didn't see them.  They

21     were put up in the various rooms in the hospital.  Mention was made that

22     there were about 20 of them.

23        Q.   And were you present when they were evacuated?

24        A.   I was present when a group was being evacuated, a group of

25     wounded persons, when it was said that a number of them would stay behind

Page 12973

 1     in the health centre.

 2        Q.   Yes.  And I think we'll recall that you don't know what happened

 3     to those that were separated.  All right.  I think these documents speak

 4     for themselves.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I can tell you for the record

 6     these people were sent to Batkovic and were not -- and did survive.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please put your next question to the witness.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   You've also told us that you met that day in Bratunac with the

10     commander of the Bratunac Brigade, Blagojevic, and he told you something

11     about receiving an order to go to Zepa; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.  He told me that he was about to go to Zepa.

13        Q.   And do you remember what time you -- about what time you saw him

14     at the Bratunac Brigade?

15        A.   Sometime at 11.00 in the morning.

16        Q.   All right.  If you give me just a moment.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to 65 ter 04204.  And it should be page

18     10, but if we could start off with the first page.

19        Q.   This is a document, sir, that's called the reports of the meeting

20     of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade which the Chamber has seen

21     before.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I -- if we go to page -- there we go, thank

23     you for that, so the General can see it.  Now if we could go to page 10

24     in the English, looks like the same in the Serbian.

25        Q.   And we can see here that on 16 July, the -- under the commander,

Page 12974

 1     it says:

 2             "Formation of battalion for Zepa by 0700 hours on 17 July 1995."

 3             Is that consistent with what you learned from Colonel Blagojevic

 4     the next day, on the 17th?

 5        A.   I don't recall him telling me which units or what the strength of

 6     the forces leaving the brigade would be.  I do know that he told me that

 7     he was taking elements of these forces with him and that he was supposed

 8     to go to Zepa too.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, Your Honour, frankly I'm not sure if this

11     part of the book is in evidence but I'll sort that out for us and let you

12     know.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, we only have --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The part you just -- well --

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I've learned it's only the October reference, you

17     may remember, that's in evidence, and now I would like at least this page

18     in evidence.  It's not a huge document, you may want the whole thing, but

19     at least this page, please.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  But this comes new.  The Defence should have an

21     opportunity to see whether there is any contextualisation needed.  Has it

22     been uploaded as a separate page?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Not yet.  Try to organise that in such a way and

25     meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, if you could think about whether there is any

Page 12975

 1     objection, and whether you would need any further pages for

 2     contextualisation.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  We will have to look at it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it that we'll deal with that after the

 5     break then.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At least the first page should be included in

 7     this collection so we know what it is about.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  I'll speak to Mr. Lukic.  I think it's a

 9     small document, I think it's something that is a helpful reference, and

10     we'll decide between ourselves and make you a proposal.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We are looking forward to that.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to 65 ter 21063C?

13        Q.   General, this will be an intercept that you may remember

14     Mr. Karnavas showing you when you testified as a Defence witness in

15     Blagojevic, and it is from 17 July 1995, and it's a discussion between

16     Badem and Micic.  Do you remember what Badem was a code name for?

17        A.   Not at this time, no.  I'm not sure.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think the Defence will probably agree with me

19     on what that code name stands for.  It's -- I see Mr. Lukic nodding his

20     head.  All right.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then if you tell us what it stands for, then the

22     Chamber also knows what you agree upon.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

24             MR. LUKIC:  It is command of Bratunac Brigade.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  I agree with Mr. Lukic.

Page 12976

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It is hereby on the record.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  All right.

 3        Q.   And we see that it -- X finally several lines down says:

 4             "Go ahead, Badem."

 5             And then M says:

 6             "Micic, 400 set off."

 7             X says:

 8             "400?"

 9             M says:

10             "Yes, at 1130 hours, the head of the column."

11             "What?

12             "1130 hours."

13             X:

14             "At 1130 hours."

15             M:

16             "The head of the column."

17             X:

18             "How many buses?"

19             M:

20             "Seven buses."

21             X:

22             "How many buses?"

23             "Seven," according to M.

24             X says:

25             "Seven?"

Page 12977

 1             M says:

 2             "Yes."

 3             X says:

 4             "Is there anything else?"

 5             M says:

 6             "(I am leaving) with the last one.

 7             "Blagojevic is at the head."

 8             X says:

 9             "I can't hear you very well."

10             M says:

11             "Blagojevic is at the head.

12             "Hello!"

13             X says:

14             "Yes."

15             M:

16             "Blagojevic, Blagojevic."

17             Then a -- X says:

18             ".... Colonel, Sir."

19             And then M says:

20             "Blagojevic set off at the head."

21             And we can see what the rest of it says.  I won't read it all.

22     We see at the end it says:

23             "Hello!  Four hundred are on their way."

24             The next page is just a thank you and a bye.

25             Do you remember what you concluded this was about in response to

Page 12978

 1     Mr. Karnavas's questions?

 2        A.   I think that we concluded at the time that it was a unit of the

 3     Bratunac Brigade which set off in the direction of Zepa.

 4        Q.   With Colonel Blagojevic at its head?

 5        A.   That is what this participant in the conversation conveyed.

 6        Q.   So would that be consistent with you meeting with Blagojevic at

 7     about 11.00 a.m. on the -- and him telling you he was -- received orders

 8     to go to Zepa?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And that now brings us back to the old conundrum, who is in

11     command of the -- all the forces with Blagojevic off to Zepa, on the

12     afternoon, early afternoon, of 17 July, who is -- who is in command of

13     those forces?

14        A.   Well, Zepa is within the area.  It is not outside of it.  And

15     it's not far.  So the time during which Blagojevic was absent was

16     somebody else in command of the forces?  I don't know.  But one cannot

17     conclude on the basis of this that Blagojevic was not in command of the

18     forces within the area.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no one is asking you to draw any

20     conclusions.  What you know, you tell us, and when you don't know, tell

21     us as well.  Please proceed.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   All right.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's see another document, 65 ter 04081.

25             Oh, I'm sorry, I would offer this intercept into evidence.

Page 12979

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We object to all intercepts.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  To all intercepts.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Since didn't -- at least don't see the people who

 5     produced them or who worked with them.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, one second, please.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This should not be broadcast.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, thank you.  Ms. Stewart reminded me of that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. McCloskey, there was an objection as to

11     authenticity or at least lack of information of where it comes from.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We have his -- the comments, I think the

13     substance of it relates to the events and the -- this critical issue

14     of -- of where Colonel Blagojevic was.  Clearly Colonel or General

15     Keserovic could not have met with Colonel Blagojevic on the 18th if

16     Colonel Blagojevic was at the Zepa theatre, so that's what the relevance

17     of it is.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection was not about relevance.  The

19     objection was about background source and authenticity.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, that's how you prove a document is

21     authentic and real and the information in it is connected to the case.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  But I understand the problem, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, if I would make a forgery I would

25     always take care that it relates to what -- to the subject matter on

Page 12980

 1     which I want to make a forgery.  So therefore, that seems not to be

 2     conclusive.  We'll further think about it.  If you have -- if you would

 3     do the same, and then we'll further deal with the matter at that moment

 4     and have it marked for identification.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We do have the supervising person coming to

 6     testify about these things so we can wrap up some issues there.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That may well resolve any questions about

 8     authenticity.  So therefore, we mark it for identification.  Madam

 9     Registrar?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 21063C receives number P1581,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.  Do I understand

13     under seal?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it 21063 or is it 4081?

16                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I get so much confirmation that it was the right

18     number, that we leave it for the time being to that.  If that would turn

19     out to be wrong, we will correct it.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This was my fault.  I -- Judge Moloto's number

21     was the document that we are dealing with a bit ahead of ourselves.  So

22     this is -- the number you mentioned, Your Honour, is a document, not an

23     intercept.  I had forgotten to offer the intercept into evidence.  So

24     04081 is a new document that I want to ask the General about.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is that document to be dealt with as a public

Page 12981

 1     document?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  This is not an intercept.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   General, just to fill out this 17 July period and the various

 8     orders, we can see that this is from the Special Police Brigade of the

 9     Ministry of Interior, and it's an order.  Could we see whose name it's

10     in?  I think it's Saric.  If we could just go to the bottom of the

11     original?  Yes.  You've told us who that is.  And we see here this order

12     to search the terrain in the area of Pobudje sector on 17 July, mopping

13     up, I won't read it all.  It says Dusko Jevric is the commander.  Have

14     you ever heard of a Dusko Jevric or a Dusko Jevic?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was a question for you, Mr. Keserovic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't realise there was a

17     question.  I thought it was still part of the comment by Mr. McCloskey.

18     I think it is Dusko Jevic, without the R, who at the time was an

19     operative in the special MUP brigade.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   And then we go to paragraph 4, it says that Borovcanin who will

22     be in charge of command and control for both the combat groups that are

23     described, and that -- is that the same Borovcanin you've talked about

24     earlier?

25        A.   Given that it says deputy commander, then, yes.

Page 12982

 1        Q.   And does this order appear to be the -- the task that you spoke

 2     of when you saw Borovcanin yourself in the Bratunac area, that you've

 3     testified about?

 4        A.   I said I saw Borovcanin and that the MUP forces were engaged in

 5     sweeping the terrain.  That's all I know about it.

 6        Q.   Looking at the geography described in this document, does this

 7     appear to be the geography of the sweep operation that you were to be

 8     involved in?

 9        A.   Yes.  This task, when it says the right-hand side of the road to

10     Milici, it is the area that was assigned to me in the original task.

11        Q.   Okay.  General, let me just get right to the point that the

12     indictment in this case is charged that the sweep operation on the 17th

13     captured over 100 people and that they were summarily executed and buried

14     in the Cerska valley.  Had you been in command of those forces that did

15     that sweep operation, would you bear any responsibility for the deaths of

16     people captured in that?

17        A.   Certainly, it would be the responsibility of the operations

18     commander, and the person who carried out the executions.

19        Q.   All right.  And going to another topic, the topic that there was

20     a discussion about your knowledge of international law, the Geneva

21     Conventions, I don't want to spend a lot of time on that but I do want to

22     see if you've seen one document, it's P1096.  It's dated 1992, from the

23     Main Staff of the armed forces of Republika Srpska.  And it's from the

24     military prosecutor's office at the Main Staff of the armed forces.

25                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 12983

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The document was, I do understand, previously under

 2     seal but is now marked that it was not admitted.  Just for your

 3     information.  That's where we are with this document.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  Don't see any reason for it to be

 5     under seal.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  I don't have any recollection as to why it

 7     was not admitted but we'll find out later.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record I just put it's not now any more

 9     P1096.  It's just 65 ter 4383.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then let's look at this same document but now

11     under the number 65 ter 4383.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   And as we are waiting for that, you have spoken briefly about the

14     military police's job to prosecute crimes.  You work with the military

15     prosecutors in doing that, don't you?

16        A.   Yes.  As unit commander, I was in contact with the military

17     prosecutor's office and I cooperated with them.

18        Q.   All right.  You can see what this is.  Military staff of the

19     armed forces of Republika Srpska, military prosecutor's office, the Main

20     Staff of the armed forces, guidelines for determining the criteria for

21     criminal prosecutions.  And if we go through this.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to page 3 in the English, which should

23     be paragraph -- it's underlined paragraph 1, maybe -- it may be page 1 or

24     2 or 3 in the Serbian.  Sorry, I don't have that.  It's not that one

25     obviously.  It will be the underlined paragraph.  Thank you.  That's it.

Page 12984

 1        Q.   And we just see that one of the -- the first crime is the failure

 2     to respond to mobilisation and call-up.  I think we can all agree that

 3     that's something important to have in time of war.  But let's go on.

 4     Let's go to the next crime is the criminal offence of wilfully absenting

 5     one's self from one's post.  I think that's pretty clear what that is.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  But now let's go to it should be page 7 in the

 7     English and it's at paragraph 3, underlined paragraph in the Serbian,

 8     page 23 in the e-court English -- B/C/S, I'm sorry.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  There are only nine pages in English.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I'm wrong about the English.  But there

11     we've got it.

12        Q.   Now, as a career officer, an officer that clearly went through

13     the ranks and is now a retired general, this important document in 1992,

14     was this something that you saw?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was again a question for you.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   We are almost done, general.  That was a question.

18        A.   I can't recall.

19        Q.   Let me ask you a couple of things about it.

20             "The legal classifications of the criminal offences from this

21     chapter has been adopted from international conventions with some

22     adaptation and closer definition.

23             "In addition, legal descriptions of most of these offences refer

24     to the application of rules of international law containing detailed

25     regulations on illegality of certain acts so that only with the help of

Page 12985

 1     these rules can the full description of a relevant criminal offence be

 2     achieved.

 3             "The unique nature of these criminal offences is also in their

 4     seriousness which is expressed in severe punishments including the death

 5     penalty for six criminal offences.  For some of these offences, such as

 6     genocide and war crimes, there is no time limit for criminal prosecution

 7     and punishment.

 8             "Crimes against humanity and international law can be committed

 9     by individuals acting on their own but by their nature these criminal

10     offences are usually committed in an organised fashion in the

11     implementation of the policy of the ruling circles.

12             "Most of these criminal offences are committed only during armed

13     conflicts or in some way closely connected with armed conflicts, which

14     means that they are committed within the context of broad military

15     operations and on orders from superior officers."

16             Now, this basic clear explanation of international rules and laws

17     was -- do you find any disagreements in that last paragraph?  Is that

18     something brand new to you?  You said you didn't read about these things

19     until 2011.

20        A.   It doesn't refer to the instruction.  I simply did not read the

21     original Geneva Conventions in any previous period, acquainting myself

22     with them in detail.  There is nothing particularly new in this text,

23     nothing that I hadn't known about in one way or another.

24        Q.   So has this information been around since 1949 and the Geneva

25     Conventions and part of your training?

Page 12986

 1        A.   Yes.  It is only a matter of how reliably I can interpret the

 2     contents.  However, I have a general understanding of the conventions.

 3        Q.   Let's go to the next page in English.

 4             "From this follows the explicit responsibility of the officer

 5     corps of the Army of Republika Srpska as the giver of orders in command

 6     of armed forces whose members could commit or are committing some of

 7     these offences, to take uncompromising action and prevent such conduct.

 8     This responsibility belongs by its nature, particularly to high-ranking

 9     individuals and officials in state, military or public organisations who

10     are in the concrete circumstances in a position to issue orders."

11             Is that your understanding of your training?

12        A.   In my first year of military academy, I had the course in the

13     basics of international humanitarian and laws of war.  It was in 1977 and

14     1978.  Later on --

15        Q.   Sir, excuse me, was this -- you can always explain your answer

16     but simple question:  Was the paragraph I just read, was that part of

17     your training, as far as you remember?  Recalling what you told us about

18     2011.

19        A.   One could say so.  Part of the training, part of the education

20     was such, and it applied to any and every officer who completed the

21     military academy.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, looking at the clock already for a

23     while.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I just wanted to ask him about the next

25     paragraph, if that was part of his training, and then if I could look

Page 12987

 1     at -- over the break and see if I have anything else left because I feel

 2     like I'm probably near the time that you want to hear from

 3     Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  One thing before my learned friend continues, I don't

 5     understand -- I don't remember that I explored this area, so I don't know

 6     how redirect is emanating from my cross.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the knowledge of Geneva Conventions was dealt

 8     with by questions by the Bench.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I do remember that it was not general knowledge

11     but it was mainly focused on prisoners of war rather than on general

12     knowledge of the Geneva Conventions.  If you just would deal with the

13     next paragraph, do it briefly, and then --

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

15        Q.   The next paragraph, General:

16             "If officers merely find out that units of the armed forces of

17     the Army of Republika Srpska or their members have committed or are

18     committing such acts, and take no measures to prevent the consequences or

19     the acts themselves and expose perpetrators to criminal prosecution, this

20     in itself makes them answerable for these criminal offences."

21        A.   Yes.  In the field of criminal liability, it would be a general

22     rule.

23        Q.   Is this in your view, one last question, an important rule in the

24     military, this last one?

25        A.   Do you mean the instruction from the prosecutor's office or the

Page 12988

 1     rules in general in terms of one's duty to initiate proceedings as soon

 2     as it has been learned that there was a crime?

 3        Q.   Yes.  The last paragraph I read, when you find out and don't do

 4     anything about it.

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes, it is very important.

 6        Q.   All right.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, if I could try to organise myself

 8     at the break, I'm almost done.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We do not object against organising yourself

10     during the break.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take the break, I have one very short

13     question.  You said a couple of times that in 2011 you started studying

14     in more detail the Geneva Conventions.  What triggered you to do that in

15     2011?  Was it in preparation for any testimony to be given?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were several reasons.  The

17     first reason was that I was asked by the Defence team for Mr. Karadzic to

18     comment on a number of provisions pertaining to the Manjaca camp which

19     was part of Karadzic's indictment.  Then, the prosecutor's office of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina asked me to provide comments about the functioning of

21     the POW camp of the 5th Corps of the ABiH in Bihac.  In addition to

22     general military and security knowledge, I had to pinpoint the specific

23     paragraphs which dealt with the topic.  That was the reason.  So nothing

24     out of the ordinary.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  We'll take a break.  You may follow the

Page 12989

 1     usher.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 12.30.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 7             Meanwhile, we will briefly deal with two matters.  The first was

 8     P1096 having been MFI'd first.  There was an issue about authenticity at

 9     that time with that witness, and finally, on the -- I think it was -- on

10     the 8th April, I read from the transcript.  I said:

11             "Finally, with regard to P1096, MFI, the Prosecution submits that

12     this document will be tendered as a public exhibit through a different

13     witness."

14             And therefore, P1096 was vacated at the time.

15             Now, we dealt with it with a different witness.  I don't know

16     whether this was the witness the Prosecution had in mind, but the

17     authenticity concerns have not been resolved through this witness so that

18     matter still stands.  In view of what the witness --

19             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to say that that witness was a protected

20     witness through whom this document was introduced, just to make everybody

21     cautious.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll not give any further details but,

25     Mr. McCloskey, the authenticity concerns are expressed again by Mr. --

Page 12990

 1     not now but --

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I think Mr. McCloskey was not with us at that time at

 4     all, so I don't know how much he knows about the testimony of this

 5     witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you sort out whether this was the witness

 7     which the Prosecution had in mind to introduce the document with.

 8             There was another matter about intercepts where I have a

 9     redaction being made.  Could the parties consider whether reading part of

10     the intercept should remain confidential, because I think the reasons for

11     these intercepts to be confidential do not in any way appear from the

12     reading.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, that's correct.  It's some of

14     the information that's sometimes on the top or the bottom but the reading

15     of it is normally not a problem.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then under those circumstances, I suggest to the

17     parties that the redaction which was made earlier will be undone and that

18     it will become part of the public record again.

19                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  To the extent the document was shown as well, and

21     that was also one of the reasons, because it's difficult to redact only

22     what we see on the screens and the reading them becomes a part of that.

23     So for these reasons, there would have been no reason to redact the

24     transcript, but there is a reason to redact the video.

25             And how we'll technically resolve this, Madam Registrar, will

Page 12991

 1     assist us.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's whispered into my ear that the right solution

 4     would be that I hereby order that the transcript becomes public again but

 5     that the confidentiality of the video remains.  That's hereby on the

 6     record.  Apologies for continuing with matters, Mr. Keserovic, that are

 7     not related to your testimony.

 8             Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

10        Q.   Very briefly, General, if you receive an order over the telephone

11     from General Mladic from Belgrade, would you follow it?  A perfectly

12     legitimate, reasonable order?

13        A.   If I could identify the person as being General Mladic beyond any

14     doubt, then yes.

15        Q.   And if General Mladic entered an agreement with an international

16     organisation while he was in Belgrade that committed the, let's say in

17     your situation, the security organ to some procedure, would that be

18     valid?  And would the security organ follow through with what he agreed

19     to?

20        A.   I'm afraid that I'm not competent enough for that area because it

21     is in the realm of the relations with foreigners.  Nobody can draw

22     somebody else into some sort of a relationship with foreigners,

23     international organisations, unless that is part and parcel of the state

24     policy or, in other words, it is not up to the army to introduce this or

25     translated into orders or actions.

Page 12992

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, this is what happens if you put a

 2     question of such a hypothetical nature, then you get these kind of

 3     answers.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It wasn't a great question, I agree.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm looking forward to your next one.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have no further questions.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, has the re-examination triggered any need

10     for further questions.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, this was pretty lengthy so it does trigger some.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, no, no.  I can't say it does come as a surprise

13     that you have further questions.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

17             MR. LUKIC:

18        Q.   General, I did promise that I will have no more questions for

19     you, but unfortunately there are certain issue that we need to clarify.

20             MR. LUKIC:  First of all, I would like to tender statement of

21     this witness that has 65 ter number 25999, and if it would please the

22     Court, we can do the selection so we don't -- do not dump the whole

23     document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  How long is this statement?

25             MR. LUKIC:  The statement is approximately 80 pages, I think.

Page 12993

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we certainly prefer that you make a selection.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  So I -- we will just extract the pages we used during

 3     the cross-examination of this witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then upload it later and give an

 5     opportunity to the Prosecution to add anything to contextualise the

 6     portions you have selected.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President, because once that

 8     is done then there are the Blagojevic transcripts, which contextualise

 9     it, there is the Tolimir transcripts, and then we end up battling

10     transcripts.  That's why it's not normally appropriate for something this

11     important, but -- I can certainly do that and we can try to reach a

12     smaller pages in the battling of transcripts.

13             MR. LUKIC:  But my learned friend remembers that he introduced

14     some pages from Tolimir transcript already through this witness.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We will get together on that.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  We will.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I would say a cup of coffee or a cup of tea, still

18     to be determined.  Yes, we will wait.  You put to the witness what you

19     want to put to him at this moment and then later we'll hear the results

20     of your conversations what --

21             MR. LUKIC:  I'm not going to proceed with this statement any

22     more, at all.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we are waiting for your further

24     initiatives.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 12994

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  First I would like to see D129.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] General, we are about to see a document which

 4     was shown to you by the prosecutor.  It's a document issued by the

 5     Ministry of the Interior.  You were asked to give your comments on it.

 6     The date is 10th of July, 1995.  Have a look at the document, please.  Is

 7     it correct that the document indicates that the MUP forces are not

 8     resubordinated to the VRS forces in the operations envisaged in this

 9     document?

10        A.   It is Tomislav Kovac who issued these forces with their

11     assignments.  He was either deputy minister of the interior or minister

12     of the interior at the time.  So it is in that capacity that he issued

13     orders to these units.  When I said that they were resubordinated, I had

14     in mind item 5 which said that the commander of the unit is duty-bound

15     upon arriving in the area to get in touch with the commander of the corps

16     or with the commander of the four -- of the corps, and I suppose that

17     I thought this -- of this as resubordination, but this is actually

18     placement under the command of the commander of the Drina Corps.

19        Q.   Thank you.  We no longer need the document.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have P1580?  This document

21     was discussed today as 65 ter 4477.

22        Q.   You can see that it's a report of the ICRC.  Mention was made of

23     the evacuation of the wounded on the 17th and the 18th.  In answer to

24     these questions, you said that all these wounded individuals were within

25     the jurisdiction of the army.  In the town of Bratunac, who was in charge

Page 12995

 1     of enforcing law and order and arraigning perpetrators of crimes?  Was it

 2     within the purview of military or civilian bodies?

 3        A.   It is the police that is charged with enforcement of law and

 4     order.

 5        Q.   Civilian police, you mean?

 6        A.   Yes.  The Ministry of the Interior.

 7        Q.   If, in addition -- or, rather, if civilian policemen were by

 8     these wounded individuals, would it be the civilian police or the army

 9     that would be responsible for these wounded individuals?

10        A.   Well, if the police was providing security for them, they would

11     be responsible for them.

12        Q.   And even if the town is within the area of responsibility of

13     someone, it is the civilian police that has the competence for providing

14     security within that area, right?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Can we briefly look at P1581C, or 65 ter 121063C.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek some further explanation of the

18     previous question and answer.

19             I think I put a few questions to you in relation to those

20     wounded, and I asked you whether you would agree with me that those who

21     were not free to go, whether you would consider them prisoners of war.

22     And I think you agreed to that.

23             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry for interrupting you.  This one is under

24     seal, this document, so it shouldn't be broadcast.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, the -- not to be shown to the public.

Page 12996

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I was just warned by my colleague.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's fine.  I go back to -- yes, but I can

 3     imagine you urgently wanted to draw our attention to the confidential

 4     character of that document.

 5             You agreed with me that you considered them to be prisoners of

 6     war.  Now, in the last answer, it was suggested to you that the police

 7     being charged with enforcement of law and order, civilian police, that

 8     they would be in charge of enforcing law and order and arraigning

 9     perpetrators of crimes.  Would you say that the civilian police is

10     responsible for the treatment of prisoners of war, or is it that even if

11     someone is a prisoner of war, that he is not exempted from possible

12     investigation by the civilian police on any crime he is suspected of?

13     Which of the two, or any third option, did you have in mind?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that they were within

15     the jurisdiction of the civilian police at the time.  Rather, the

16     question was if the civilian police was securing them, would that mean

17     that they would be within their jurisdiction, and my answer was yes, they

18     would be.  Now, if you'll allow me, I won't take long.  There were cases,

19     a specific one in 1992, in the municipality of Prijedor, where three

20     collection centres or camps - Keraterm, Trnopolje, and Omarska - were

21     placed in the hands of the civilian police, whereas the Manjaca camp was

22     under the army.  This depended on the prevailing circumstances and

23     conditions and who it was who was given the assignment, so in view of

24     these considerations, I could not rule out the possibility that the

25     police could provide security for and be responsible for prisoners of

Page 12997

 1     war.  I stand by that, that the commander of the military unit within

 2     whose area the prisoners of war are present is responsible for them, but

 3     I also do not rule out the possibility that someone could have decided

 4     otherwise.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to understand your answer, do you say that the

 6     military commander who was responsible for the prisoners of war can just

 7     say, "Now you police, from now on, you're responsible.  I'm not

 8     responsible anymore but you are"?  I see you're nodding no.  Do

 9     I understand, then, that the police playing a role --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The commander could not

11     transfer the responsibility.  This could have been decided upon by

12     superiors.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Which superior could do that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the level of the

15     Supreme Command, it could have been the case and it should have been the

16     case, and this is most often the case, that the decision is taken as to

17     who would be responsible.  Would it be the VRS or the Ministry of the

18     Interior?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And that all in relation to prisoners of war?  Can

20     the Supreme Command -- I can imagine that you say you, MUP, assist us in

21     avoiding that our prisoners of war will escape, to come to our

22     assistance, but is it your position that the military command, highest

23     commands, can just move the responsibility for the prisoners of war to

24     police forces which are not part of the military command structure?  Is

25     that your position?

Page 12998

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military forces themselves

 2     cannot shift responsibility.  It may so happen that responsibility is

 3     transferred on to the police but it cannot be done by the commander

 4     within the zone.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But it can be done by the Supreme Commander, if the

 6     Supreme Commander of the forces which is, if I understand the situation

 7     well, is the president of the republic?  He can say, "Well, you army

 8     people, you took prisoners of war, and now the police is responsible for

 9     them from now on"?  And they would still be prisoners of war?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would still be prisoners of

11     war.  It's just that the police or the Ministry of the Interior would be

12     responsible for them because, after all, they are part and parcel of the

13     armed forces in times of war.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the police as a structure of the armed

15     forces, not in any other capacity?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The police just being part of the military?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The army is one unit and the

19     police is the other.  But together they formed the armed forces of a

20     republic.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand what your position is.  I have

22     no further questions, I think in relation to that, apart from one matter.

23     Yes.

24             In one of your previous answers you said the following, and I

25     don't know whether I fully understood it, therefore I'll read it to you

Page 12999

 1     again.  You were talking about the document that was shown to you,

 2     especially paragraph 5 in which it says:

 3             "Upon arrival, get in touch with the --" you remember the

 4     document that was about --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, with Colonel Krstic.

 6             JUDGE ORIE: -- yes, it's about -- yes.  Now, you said the

 7     following:

 8             "I suppose that I thought this -- of this as resubordination, but

 9     this is actually placement under the command of the commander of the

10     Drina Corps."

11             That is how it was translated to us.  Could you clarify what you

12     exactly meant there?  Is it resubordination or is it not resubordination?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From this term, "get in touch,"

14     I understood this actually to mean the resubordination to the commander

15     of the Drina Corps because resubordination in essence means placement

16     under the command.  That was my opinion based on what I was able to read

17     here.  I'm not sure that this was reflected in the situation on the

18     ground, though.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I now see, therefore, that for you, actually

20     placing yourself under the command of is resubordination and that's what

21     you read to be meant in paragraph 5 of that document.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll be brief, General.  I want to go back to

Page 13000

 1     something.  Since police forces can also be tasked with issuing IDs or

 2     arresting the perpetrators of crimes, or scene of crime techniques, is it

 3     correct that police forces can be under the command and control of the

 4     army only if resubordinated to a military command for the purposes of a

 5     particular operation?

 6        A.   Yes, that is correct.  Only if resubordinated.

 7        Q.   Is it correct that resubordination is a strictly prescribed

 8     activity which needs to include information on one unit being

 9     resubordinated to another unit and the word "resubordination" or "shall

10     be resubordinated" must be present?

11        A.   Yes.  That is the key term.

12        Q.   I placed this topic on the screen.  It deals with another topic.

13     It has to do with the column of buses setting off.  You tried to explain

14     something when you said that Zepa was still within the area.  What area?

15     The area of the Bratunac Brigade?

16        A.   Yes, at the time it was.

17        Q.   How far is Zepa from Bratunac, approximately, or from the outer

18     part of the area of the Bratunac Brigade or its command post?

19        A.   From Srebrenica to Zepa, I think there is less than ten

20     kilometres because the enclaves were very close by.  They basically

21     bordered on each other.

22        Q.   This question may sound simplistic but I still have to put it:

23     Is it possible for someone to go to Zepa on the 17th and be in Bratunac

24     back on the 18th?

25        A.   It is possible.  That is also an issue that has been bothering me

Page 13001

 1     all along.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we next see document number

 4     04081?

 5        Q.   Once we have it on the screen, we'll discuss resubordination yet

 6     again.  That is to say the resubordination of police units to the army.

 7     This document dates -- is dated the 17th of July, 1995.  It was issued by

 8     the Special Police Brigade.  Have a look at it and tell us whether under

 9     this document the police in the field in that area is resubordinated to

10     the army or is not?

11        A.   One can see from the document that the special brigade commander

12     ordered or issued tasks to his unit, so we cannot see that they were

13     resubordinated.

14        Q.   This search operation, had it begun before this date?  I think

15     you've already mentioned that in your testimony.

16        A.   Yes, it had.

17        Q.   And I'm about to conclude.  My learned friend, Mr. McCloskey,

18     asked you this:  When Mladic issues an order by phone, would it be

19     carried out?  We could see on the footage that General Mladic was on the

20     phone at the military medical academy.  I think we interrupted at that

21     point.  But General Mladic was on the phone at the military medical

22     academy, the call went to Republika Srpska, and he ordered some vehicles.

23     The fact that he was using an open line, does it point to the fact that

24     he did not have any communications equipment with him; in other words,

25     was he duty-bound to use communications equipment under the rules before

Page 13002

 1     resorting to an open line?  Do you know what the regulation is in terms

 2     of such situations?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That assumes a fact not in evidence.  There has

 5     been no evidence that this is an open line.  We don't have an intercept

 6     of it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all I only intervened at your second

 8     question about a hypothetical question.  I think the first one was as

 9     hypothetical - if Mr. Mladic would give an order by phone - not related

10     to any factual situation.  I was already about at that moment, but then

11     the witness gave a short answer.  Apparently he had an idea about what it

12     was.  It was only the second question that I intervened.  That second

13     question was hypothetical just as the first one was.

14             Now, Mr. Lukic, what you're doing now, you're introducing all

15     kind of facts and perhaps assumptions or is it still hypothetical?  If

16     it's hypothetical, then you should say, if he gives an order by public

17     phone, would you follow that?  If he gives an order by anything else,

18     that -- it's still hypothetical, so I would rather hear from the witness

19     whether it ever happened and whether he -- did you ever receive any order

20     by telephone, either public or non-public through the form of

21     communications channels?  Did you ever receive an order by telephone from

22     Mr. Mladic?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Neither from him, nor from the

24     corps commanders who were my superiors.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I allowed -- I didn't intervene in one

Page 13003

 1     hypothetical question, so, Mr. Lukic, if you insist to put a hypothetical

 2     question to the witness then the equality of arms is restored.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I'll just put an another question.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  -- actually it's the second part of my question.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 7             MR. LUKIC:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Are there any rules in terms of sequence on how

 9     communications should be used?

10        A.   Yes, there are rules on communications, including the sequence of

11     their use.  Only in extraordinary urgent situations, when no delay is

12     allowed, when every minute counts, when it is already obvious what is

13     going on, then an order can be conveyed openly.

14        Q.   Thank you, General.  This would be all on our part.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey?

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I had forgot to offer this document that's in --

17     on the screen into evidence.  It should be 65 ter 4081, and so I would do

18     that now.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was, what is on our screen at this moment?

20     If --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Of course, no objections.  We used it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection.  Madam Registrar the number would be?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 4081 receives number P1582, Your

24     Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P1582 is admitted into evidence.

Page 13004

 1             Further, Mr. McCloskey, going back to P1581, that is an intercept

 2     which was not shown to the public, you used that document in your efforts

 3     to establish what happened on the 17th.  Now, if you look at the

 4     original, you'll find that there is a date on it, English translation has

 5     no date.  So if you want the Chamber to rely on the date, which seems to

 6     be the core matter, then I would suggest that you upload a full

 7     translation, including the heading which bears a date.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We'll do that.  We have been

 9     in a bit of a tussle over that procedurally because in order to identify

10     the date on these print-outs, you have to have many pages before you get

11     to the date because they are sent out in reports, but we will be able to

12     do that and make some sense of it.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, the original covers two pages, with

14     the relevant heading with the date.  The English translation covers two

15     pages, same content, but not the heading.  So ... I'm not yet convinced

16     by this rather complex --

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's a bigger picture, Your Honour, which if we

18     have to wait until we all have a good night's sleep to deal with, but

19     it's a --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, Mr. McCloskey, just the B/C/S uploaded has a

21     date.  The English translation has not a translation of that date, to the

22     extent you have to translate dates, but the header is not there with a

23     date.  If you think you can do without, then the Chamber might rely on

24     this document and finally conclude that it does not in any way support

25     what you intended to establish because there is no date on it.

Page 13005

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I understand, and we'll of course fix that simple

 2     problem.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's just related to another problem which I'll

 5     talk about on another day.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I would say fix the simple problem and then all the

 7     other problems we'll hear about later.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  One last one because there is one more document

 9     that I need to offer that I had forgotten to offer.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter 13880.  That was the 18 July Kijac

12     document.  That mentioned the evacuation on two days, I believe.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No objections?

14             Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 13880 receives number P1583, Your

16     Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P1583 is admitted into evidence.

18             Nothing further?

19             Then, Mr. Keserovic, there concludes your testimony in this

20     Court.  I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

21     for having answered all the questions that were put to you either by the

22     parties or by the Bench.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 13006

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

 2     I do understand that no protective measures.  Mr. Vanderpuye?

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We are, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the next witness be escorted into the

 5     courtroom.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, may I be excused for a moment?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, witness.  Can you hear me in a

10     language you understand?  Apparently yes.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, I can.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the rules require that you

13     make a solemn declaration, the text is now handed out to you by the

14     usher.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  PETAR SALAPURA

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, please be seated.  Witness, you'll first

20     be examined by Mr. Vanderpuye.  Mr. Vanderpuye, you find him to your

21     right, and he is counsel for the Prosecution.

22             Mr. Vanderpuye you may proceed.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much Mr. President, good

24     afternoon to you and Your Honours.

25                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

Page 13007

 1        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Salapura.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I did neglect to ask the Chamber

 3     for a Rule 90(E) caution.  One was issued previously with respect to the

 4     Colonel's evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Salapura, I'd like to inform you of

 6     Rule 90(E) of this Tribunal which states that a witness, that means in

 7     this situation you, that you may object to making any statement which

 8     might tend to incriminate yourself, if you do so.  The Chamber, however,

 9     may compel you to answer the question, but if we would do that, testimony

10     compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence in a subsequent

11     prosecution against you, apart from if that would be a prosecution for

12     giving false testimony.  Is that clear to you?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you again, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Just so the record is clear, let me start with this:  Could you

17     state your name for the record, Colonel?

18        A.   Petar Salapura.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

20     be asked to lean back and refrain from touching the console as it creates

21     background noise?  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please lean a bit back?  Perhaps -- and

23     could you refrain from touching something which creates noise for our

24     interpreters?  Please proceed.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, again.

Page 13008

 1        Q.   Colonel, do you recall testifying in the case of the Prosecutor

 2     versus Tolimir on the 2nd through the 5th and the 9th of May 2011?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   And was the testimony that you gave at that time truthful and

 5     accurate to the best of your recollection?

 6        A.   Yes.  It is possible that some dates may be questionable but it's

 7     been a long time ago and perhaps I can't remember everything, but the

 8     rest is fully accurate and truthful.

 9        Q.   All right.  Well we'll deal with some of that in just a little

10     bit.  Did you have an opportunity to listen to your testimony, an audio

11     recording of it, prior to testifying here today?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   And having listened to your testimony, does it faithfully reflect

14     what you said during the -- during your testimony in the Tolimir case?

15        A.   I can confirm that.

16        Q.   And I'll talk to you -- I'll ask you a little bit in just a

17     minute about the date question that you've just raised, but in substance,

18     is your testimony as you gave it in the Tolimir case how you would answer

19     questions concerning the same issues if they were put to you in this

20     case?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Let me just ask you a little bit about the dates that you just

23     mentioned.  In particular, is there any clarification with respect to

24     dates that you wish to make to your Tolimir testimony?

25        A.   Yes.  It has to do with when I learned first about the engagement

Page 13009

 1     of a group of members from the 10th Sabotage Detachment in the executions

 2     of ABiH prisoners.

 3        Q.   In your testimony at page, transcript page 13593, lines 18

 4     through 21, you were asked about when you learned about these -- the

 5     involvement of the members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in the

 6     executions of Srebrenica prisoners, and you were asked specifically this:

 7             "So are you saying that it wasn't until sometime after his

 8     arrest," referring to Drazen Erdemovic, "on March 2nd, 1996, that you

 9     learned that people were murdered by the VRS?"

10             And your answer was:

11             "Yes.  When this was published in the press, then the stories

12     began."

13             Is that the -- is that the issue that you want to clarify at this

14     time?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes.

16        Q.   How do you wish to clarify it at this time in terms of when you

17     first became aware of the involvement of the members of the 10th sabotage

18     detachment in these crimes?

19        A.   Yes.  I wanted to say that it was earlier, either in early

20     January or in the second part of December.  Around that time.  But

21     I can't be more precise in terms of date.

22        Q.   Okay.  Subject to that clarification, is your testimony as you

23     gave it in the Tolimir case otherwise accurate and would you answer the

24     questions in this case as put to you in the same way?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13010

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, at this time I would like to

 3     tender the --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would like to tender the transcript.

 6     I apologise for jumping ahead of the interpretation.

 7             That is 65 ter 28993.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic?  Or Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  28994, I'm sorry.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections in this regard.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28993 receives number P1584,

13     Your Honours.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I want to correct that, I'm sorry.  It's 28994,

15     I misspoke.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  So document 28994 receives number P1584, Your

17     Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would also at this time tender

20     the associated exhibits listed in the exhibit list.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We have, if -- we have five associated exhibits to

22     be tendered and admitted, Mr. Vanderpuye?

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think that's right.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, any objections?  No, then we take

25     them one by one for admission.

Page 13011

 1             First one, please follow me, Mr. Vanderpuye, 65 ter 14220.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1585, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             Next one, 65 ter 19960.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1586, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted.

 7             65 ter 22449.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, with respect to that one there is

 9     a specific clip that we've identified as 2249A -- 22449A, I'm sorry.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the clip 65 ter number 22449A receives number?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  P1587, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's admitted.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I also should inform you that we

14     haven't provided the CD of the clip yet, so if the Chamber needs to MFI

15     the document, we can do that until we provide it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it has not been provided to the Registry?

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it will be MFI'd.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore P1587, I change the status.  It's not

21     admitted.  It is marked for identification pending submission of the CD

22     to the Registry.

23             The next one is 65 ter 25938.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1588, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 13012

 1             Last one, 65 ter 25983.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1589, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P1589 is admitted.

 4             You may proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have a summary I'd

 6     like to read.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  Could that be done in approximately

 8     three minutes?

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think so, yes, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break after you've read the

11     summary.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

13             In July 1995, Colonel Petar Salapura was the chief of the VRS

14     Main Staff's intelligence administration.  His immediate superior was

15     General Tolimir, the assistant commander for security and intelligence

16     and chief of the sector which also comprised the security administration

17     led by Colonel Ljubisa Beara.

18             Colonel Salapura's evidence concerns, among other things, the

19     structure of the security and intelligence sector, its constituent

20     administrations, their relationships to subordinate professional organs,

21     and their reporting obligations and practices.

22             Colonel Salapura exercised specialist or professional control

23     over intelligence organs in subordinate formations toward the 410th

24     Intelligence Centre and toward the 10th Sabotage Detachment, which he

25     describes as an independent Main Staff unit directly subordinated to

Page 13013

 1     General Mladic.

 2             In June 1995, Colonel Salapura vetted a plan to engage the

 3     10th Sabotage Detachment in an attack in Srebrenica town.  Initially

 4     requested by members of the Drina Corps command, including

 5     Colonel Beara's professional subordinate Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic and

 6     Colonel Salapura's professional subordinate, Major Pavle Golic.

 7     Colonel Salapura proposed the mission to General Mladic upon whose

 8     approval and order it was carried out.  There were civilian casualties.

 9             When Srebrenica fell, Colonel Salapura was in Banja Luka.  On the

10     morning of 13 July 1995, he set off for the Main Staff command in

11     Han Pijesak from Bijeljina to inform General Mladic urgently of certain

12     intelligence information.  He stopped at the 65th Protection Regiment's

13     MP Battalion command at Nova Kasaba where he observed prisoners at the

14     football stadium.  MP Battalion Commander Major Malin -- Zoran Malinic,

15     informed Colonel Salapura that General Mladic was in the Bratunac area.

16     Colonel Salapura eventually caught up with General Mladic.  He was filmed

17     with him in Srebrenica.  Colonel Salapura later headed to Han Pijesak

18     passing through Potocari where he saw women and children being loaded

19     onto buses.  He reached the VRS command in the afternoon where he

20     remained actively engaged in his work through 18 July 1995.

21             Colonel Salapura admitted later learning of the involvement of

22     members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in the Srebrenica-related

23     executions from the unit's commander, Milorad Pelemis.  He claimed he was

24     "horrified by it" and "couldn't really get a grasp on the number of

25     people, something like that -- something like that was possible, the

Page 13014

 1     scale."  Still, he claimed their involvement was involuntary.  In January

 2     1996, he requested the RS Minister of the Interior, Dragan Kijac, to

 3     issue false identifications for members of the unit implicated in these

 4     crimes.

 5             Mr. President, that concludes my summary.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  We take a break first.

 7             Witness, we will take a break of 20 minutes and we'll have some

 8     other 20 minutes left after the break.  You may follow the usher.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume in 20 minutes from now.

11                           --- Recess taken at 1.33 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.54 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, there is a matter that I would

15     like to raise with the Chamber with respect to the witness's ability to

16     communicate with other parties following his testimony here, but I think

17     it might be more appropriate to raise it at a later time since he's

18     walking in just now.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Colonel, you had indicated at some point during the time that

24     I was reading the summary of your evidence, and I just want to remind you

25     that it's a summary of your testimony and not evidence in the case, but

Page 13015

 1     you did indicate that you wanted to say something so I wanted to invite

 2     you to share with us your observation at this point.

 3        A.   Thank you.  A small error or typo slipped in.  The operation you

 4     mention in the month of June was a sabotage action.  It was carried out

 5     on the 22nd.  At any rate in late June.  There were no victims, or there

 6     was one woman, but it was not established how her death came about.

 7     There was the first report by UNPROFOR and then the information services

 8     of the 28th Division indicated that there were no casualties.  The action

 9     was a diversionary one because of the prevailing weather conditions.

10     There was fog.

11        Q.   All right, Colonel.  Thank you for that clarification, and

12     I think the Chamber has at its disposal the evidence relating to the

13     subject matter of the operation itself and the question of casualties and

14     so forth.

15             As I mentioned to you yesterday, I wanted to try to be as brief

16     as possible with you in your direct examination.  So I just wanted to

17     show you a few documents and hopefully proceed in that way.  First, can

18     I just confirm with you that the rules that were applied during the

19     period of time that you were in the VRS Main Staff were rules that were

20     established in the JNA and adopted?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What I'd like to show you is 65 ter 4643 and it relates to the

23     intelligence support of the armed forces.  It's a 1987 manual.  I hope we

24     will have the translation up in a moment.

25             Are you familiar with this particular manual or this particular

Page 13016

 1     document, sir?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And in principle, was this document used in discharging your

 4     duties as the chief of the intelligence administration in the VRS?

 5        A.   Yes.  But I also had to adapt to the prevailing circumstances.

 6     The document was drafted in peacetime and for what was perhaps a

 7     different sort of warfare.  It was drafted as part of preparations for

 8     the defence of Yugoslavia in the event of an aggression -- of an external

 9     aggression, as it were.

10        Q.   My question is, then, did it form the basis of the rules that you

11     applied as the chief of the intelligence administration in the VRS?

12        A.   Yes.  We proceeded from them.  We -- that was our starting point.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I have spoken with the Defence to

15     determine whether or not there was any objection to the admission of this

16     document.  I understand that there isn't so I would tender it at this

17     time.  I can go through more elements of it, but I think it would be

18     quicker to do it this way.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's very quick but it's also 117 pages,

20     Mr. Vanderpuye, of which we do not know yet where and what will become

21     relevant for us.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I can identify those at a later point if you

23     would like me to MFI it now, or I can lead the witness through those

24     points.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  If -- there is no need to do that, but to say

Page 13017

 1     here you have got 117 pages, we need a bit of -- you say you'll sooner or

 2     later draw our attention to specific portions which -- let me --

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, if there is no objection from the

 5     Defence, then there is no need yet at this moment to tender it.  You

 6     don't intend to ask any further questions to the witness.  And then make

 7     the appropriate selections.  Not having looked at the document, I know

 8     already there are many paragraphs which are totally irrelevant for us

 9     I take it.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  There will be.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if you therefore -- even MFI'ing now,

12     there is no objection against it being admitted.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Make a selection, speak to the Defence about what

15     the Defence considers relevant, and then bring the selection to our

16     attention and tender it, and we'll then most likely admit that selection.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  What I'll

18     do then is I'll move to the next document, which is 65 ter 25993.

19        Q.   This is a shorter document but the same principal would apply, so

20     let me ask you, Colonel, and this document may seem familiar to you, and

21     it's called instructions for land-based diversionary operations, and let

22     me ask again was this document adapted by the VRS Main Staff and formed

23     the basis for the rules that were applicable during your tenure as chief

24     of the intelligence administration with respect to sabotage units and, in

25     particular, the 10th Sabotage Detachment of the Main Staff?

Page 13018

 1        A.   This document was only the basis.  We didn't have our own

 2     instructions and we didn't have time to draft them.  We used this manual

 3     as a basis only.

 4        Q.   All right.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, this is a shorter document,

 6     but --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  It's 18 pages.  I would -- you're suggested to take

 8     the same procedure which is fully supported by the Chamber.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Very well.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Give us whatever we need.  Don't give us what we

11     don't need.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  All right.  Then I'll

13     move on.  It's clear for the record what it is, so --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And no objections I take it then as well.

15     Yes.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:

18        Q.   Colonel, I just wanted to ask you very briefly some questions

19     about the history of the security and intelligence sector.  In 1992, was

20     there a security and intelligence sector in the Main Staff of the VRS?

21        A.   Yes.  As the Main Staff was set up, I think the intelligence and

22     security administration was established first.  This because we had very

23     few men and were unable to create separate services.  At a later stage,

24     with some additional recruitment, we had two separate administrations,

25     security administration and intelligence administration.  This was later

Page 13019

 1     transformed into a sector headed by General Tolimir which consisted of

 2     two administrations.

 3        Q.   All right.  I just want to make sure that the record is clear

 4     because my question was whether or not there was a sector in 1992.  You

 5     said that there was; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  I think so.  I think that the sector was already

 7     established back in 1992.  May, June.  I think so, as far as I remember.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And initially in 1992, to whom was the chief of

 9     intelligence subordinated?

10        A.   In the beginning of 1992, this was within the military district,

11     and it was still called the department for intelligence affairs.  I was

12     the chief of that department, and I was subordinated to the Chief of

13     Staff of the military district.  As for the security department, it was

14     subordinated to the commander of the military district.  As the military

15     district was transformed, that's to say as the command of the military

16     district was transformed into the Main Staff of the VRS, these

17     departments became administrations.  So we came to have the security

18     administration and the intelligence administration.

19        Q.   When the military district became the -- was transformed into the

20     Main Staff of the VRS, as you say, to whom were you immediately

21     subordinated at that time, that is, at the initial -- at the initiation

22     of the VRS Main Staff?

23        A.   Initially to the Chief of Staff.

24        Q.   When the administrations were formed under the sector of security

25     and intelligence, to whom were you, as the chief of the intelligence

Page 13020

 1     administration, immediately subordinate?

 2        A.   To General Tolimir, the chief of sector.

 3        Q.   And just so we are clear, in terms of the security administration

 4     of the Main Staff, to whom was the chief of that administration

 5     subordinated at the time that the two administrations were created under

 6     the sector?

 7        A.   To the chief of sector who was at the same time assistant

 8     commander for intelligence and security.

 9        Q.   Again, is that General Tolimir or was that General Tolimir?

10        A.   General Tolimir, yeah.

11        Q.   I just want to clarify one other thing and that is you indicated

12     in your testimony at page 13486 that the 10th Sabotage Detachment was an

13     independent unit of the Main Staff.  First, can you tell us what that

14     means?

15        A.   It was an autonomous unit of the Main Staff.  Now, I don't know

16     how it comes across when it's translated into English.  Rather than

17     independent, it's an autonomous unit and as such it was subordinate to

18     the chief of the Main Staff.  It was not under the Protection Regiment.

19        Q.   Okay.  I just want to clarify a couple of things.  First, my

20     question, and I refer to your testimony at page 13486, so the record

21     should just reflect that that concerns the testimony in the Tolimir case.

22             And the second thing I want to clarify is what you've said here,

23     that it was an autonomous unit subordinate to the chief of the Main

24     Staff.  What do you mean by that?

25        A.   For the detachment?  No, I said the commander of the Main Staff.

Page 13021

 1     And under the professional line, to the chief of --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat.

 3        A.   So that's the use of manpower, personnel, recruitment, supplies.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters did not get the whole of your

 5     answer.  Could you resume where you said for the detachment -- no --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said recruitment, training

 7     and education of manpower, and supplying units with the necessary assets

 8     to carry out the specific assignments.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would wait next time exactly to what I'm

10     asking you.  The interpreters got lost a bit earlier.  You said:

11             "For the detachment?  No, I said the commander of the Main Staff.

12     And under the professional line, to the chief of --"

13             And what did you then say?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In terms of professional control,

15     to the chief of the intelligence administration.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was what was missing.  Please proceed,

17     Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   I just want to clarify a couple of things before we break.  Where

20     the detachment is used for actions that are not strictly part of their

21     normal assignment, is that something that only the commander of the Main

22     Staff could order?

23        A.   Yes.  The chief of administration cannot order that.  It -- he

24     can only propose, but only under the professional line, so they can be

25     assignments related to diversionary actions, sabotage, or reconnaissance.

Page 13022

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I see we've got about a minute

 3     left and I'm about to go to a different part, as brief as I had hoped it

 4     would be.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I wouldn't do it, Mr. Vanderpuye.  I would just

 6     enjoy the break, coming --

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would very much like to do that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  But there is one matter I would like to address

10     the Chamber with just any way.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do we need to do that in the presence of the

12     witness?

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We will have to excuse the witness unfortunately

14     and we may have to call him back afterwards, Mr. President.  It'll

15     [Overlapping speakers] --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the matter you would like to raise we do

17     that in the absence of the witness because then --

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, please.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we'll adjourn for the day and will resume

20     tomorrow morning at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom.

21             But before you go -- could you please keep your --

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I may --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you go, I would like to instruct you that you

24     should not speak with anyone about your testimony, whether already given

25     or still to be given, or to communicate in whatever other way with

Page 13023

 1     whomever about your testimony.  If you have understood this, then we

 2     would like to see you back tomorrow morning.  Mr. -- one second.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, we were informed earlier today that the

 4     Karadzic Defence team wishes to see this witness this afternoon and we

 5     wanted to bring that to the Chamber's attention so we could give the

 6     witness an appropriate instruction with respect to that.  The

 7     Prosecution's position is that it would be inappropriate for a witness to

 8     be speaking about his evidence with another team.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Isn't -- may I take it that it's about the

10     same subject matter?

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then is there any -- is it explained how urgent that

13     would be?  Could the Defence not speak with the witness after he has

14     finished his testimony in this case?

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  My understanding is in terms of the scheduling

16     that has been arranged that he is scheduled to testify in the Karadzic

17     case tomorrow.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Tomorrow?

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Tomorrow.  Tomorrow, if I'm not mistaken.  Which

20     may not happen but that's what the scheduling is as far as I understand

21     it now and that's the reason for the request as well.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I expect this witness to be present in this

23     courtroom tomorrow in this case.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, he will be here.  If his testimony were

25     to -- and what I mean to say is if his testimony were to conclude

Page 13024

 1     tomorrow, he is scheduled to testify then, although it may very well be

 2     adjourned until Friday.  Whenever he concludes here.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber does not permit the witness to talk with

 5     the Karadzic Defence, as long as he has not concluded his testimony in

 6     this courtroom.  We were not informed in any way about this prior to it,

 7     and therefore, this Chamber considers that.

 8             And I address you again, Witness.  Mr. Salapura, you are not

 9     allowed to speak with the Karadzic Defence.  Of course, once you're

10     finished your testimony here and if you have not started any testimony in

11     the Karadzic case, fine, but not as long as you're testifying in this

12     Court.  That means you should not even have any communication with the

13     Karadzic Defence, which means that through the Victims and Witness Unit,

14     the Karadzic Defence can be informed that you are not available for any

15     further conversation or any further contacts with them, and you should

16     refrain from seeing them, speaking with them, e-mailing with them,

17     whatever.  No contact with the Karadzic Defence until the moment that

18     you've concluded your testimony in this case.  Is that clear to you?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could I ask the -- that you -- that

21     the Victims and Witness Section of the Registry takes care that this

22     message comes clear to the Karadzic Defence?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And to include in that that this is an order

25     of this Chamber and that any assistance in violating that order comes

Page 13025

 1     down to violating that order itself.  That part of the message should

 2     also be conveyed to the Karadzic Defence.

 3             Do we need the witness for any further matter, Mr. Vanderpuye?

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President, there is one small matter

 5     relating to an administrative issue that I'd like to --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll deal with that and we'll not bother the

 7     witness with that.

 8             Mr. Salapura, we would like to see you back tomorrow morning at

 9     9.30.  You may now follow the usher.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, it is a short administrative matter?

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I should inform the Chamber

14     that we now have a copy of the CD related to P1587 that was MFI'd and was

15     the video clip.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And there is no objection.  Therefore, the status of

17     P1587 changes into an -- admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing else, then we adjourn for the day.

20     I apologise to all those assisting us that it's again five minutes later,

21     and that we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the 20th of June in this same

22     Courtroom I, at 9 .30 in the morning.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day of June,

25                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.