1 Friday, 21 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 If there are no preliminaries, I would ask the usher to escort
11 the witness into the courtroom.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Salapura.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Salapura, I would like to remind you that you're
17 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of
18 your testimony.
19 And Mr. Vanderpuye will now continue his re-examination.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good
21 morning to everyone.
22 WITNESS: PETAR SALAPURA [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
25 Q. Good morning, Colonel. Yesterday when we left off, I indicated I
1 was going to a different area.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: So if I could have, please, P1361 in e-court.
3 Q. Just for your reference, Colonel this is the 17 July intercept
4 that you were shown by Mr. Stojanovic yesterday. It is timed at 11.15
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please talk in the microphone.
7 Thank you.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.
9 Q. I'm not going to go the whole of the intercept with you. We have
10 your evidence concerning your views or recollection concerning your
11 purported participation in this intercept, as we can see at the bottom of
12 the page in the English. And I think we'll have to go to the second page
13 in the B/C/S.
14 But, for the time being, what I wanted to ask you about are just
15 a couple of things. The first thing is you say you have no recollection
16 of speaking to Kovac who you identified, I think, as the deputy minister
17 or the minister of the interior at the time.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, if we go to the second page in the B/C/S, you'll see the
20 reference to this part of the conversation concerning Kovac.
21 And it says in the intercept:
22 "I know," that's X speaking. "Salapura talked to Kovac and got
23 his verbal consent that the shift will arrive in the course of the day."
24 Now, you may not know this, but it's the Prosecution's position
25 that this intercept concerns the engagement of VRS and MUP forces to
1 sweep the area of Cerska, among other areas, beginning on the 17th of
2 July, 1995. But what I want to ask you is that in order for the
3 commander of the Main Staff to issue an order for MUP units to be engaged
4 in such conduct, would that require the consent or the approval of the
5 Ministry of the Interior, that is, either the minister or the deputy
7 A. In principle, I suppose so. It would have been a joint action of
8 the forces of the military police, police, and so on. And other
9 available forces that they had.
10 Q. If we go to the first page in the B/C/S, and we'll stay, I think,
11 on this page in the English.
12 Yes, I can -- I think we -- you can see the other reference to
13 your name, it's near the bottom, about three lines or four lines from the
14 bottom. In that part of the conversation, X says:
15 "I told the commander he ordered Salapura and the order will be
16 drafted, or rather, a request to the MUP to bring back all of them, in
17 fact to keep them."
18 So what I wanted to know from you is: With respect to the
19 consent or the authorisation that's required in order for the commander
20 of the Main Staff to engage MUP units, is that something that has to be
21 in writing or can it be done in another form?
22 A. Please, this is completely illogical. No communication between
23 the commander of the Main Staff and MUP went through me. It went through
24 the security service. I didn't have any such units that I would have any
25 power over which would be involved in the sweep operations. They could
1 have been units of the military police or some other available units. I
2 don't understand this document at all and I can state under full
3 responsibility that I have nothing to do with this, and that's for sure.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Salapura, you're not here to defend yourself;
5 you're here to answer questions. The question was whether such orders
6 would be given in writing, yes or no. That was the simple question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't say now what the
8 practice was. I was not privy to such orders. It depended on where they
9 were. If they were together, they could have made such arrangements
10 verbally; if they were not in the same place, then this would have had to
11 be done in writing, both by the asking party, the requesting party, and
12 the requested party. I can't answer this question.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You have answered the question. That is, that you
14 do not know the practice. Therefore, listen carefully to the questions
15 that are put to the you and try to answer those.
16 Mr. Vanderpuye, next question, please.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. You may recall, Colonel, you were asked about the accuracy of
19 intercepted communications I think rather generally by my colleague
20 Mr. Stojanovic and you said at some point, yes, mistakes can be made, and
21 this related to this particular intercept as concerns whether the
22 conversation occurred with Kovacevic or Kovac.
23 You remember that part of your evidence yesterday?
24 A. I do, yes.
25 Q. What I want to show you is P1582. But before we go there, I just
1 want to go back to the second page in the B/C/S for a second.
2 Okay. And near -- near the end of this conversation you'll see
3 the part that I just read to you before regarding your purported
4 conversation with Kovac. And then it says that you:
5 "... got his verbal consent that the shift will arrive in the
6 course of the day."
7 I just want you to keep that in mind because I'm going to show
8 you the next document, which is 1582, P1582.
9 A. [In English] Okay.
10 Q. What you have now in front of you is an order that's issued by
11 Goran Saric who was the commander of the special police brigade of the
12 MUP. In the header you'll see that this is dated 17 July 1995. It's
13 directed to the Ministry of the Interior. It is also directed to - and I
14 want you to keep this in mind as well - to the Zvornik CJB, public
15 security centre, and it's an order as can you see there.
16 What this calls for is for the establishment in paragraph 1 of
17 combat group, a combat group, of police and it lists what units in
18 particular. Doboj Special Police Detachment, two companies from
19 Jahorina, two PJP special police units, and so on and so forth. And it
21 "In the course of today, to search the terrain of Pobudje sector
22 in the course of today," which we saw previously in the intercept,
23 "17 July 1995 and fully mop-up the right side of Milici, Drinjaca road
24 before regrouping for the search of Cerska."
25 To your knowledge of how a unit may be subordinated or
1 resubordinated to the VRS, a MUP unit, that is, is this document
2 consistent with what we saw in the intercept that I showed you a moment
4 A. What I can see here is that the police unit from this
5 conversation is being engaged in the sweep-up of the terrain in the
6 Drinjaca area. I can state for a fact that I was not familiarised with
7 this, that I had nothing to do with it. I can state that neither I nor
8 any of my organs were ever engaged in search operations of the terrain.
9 This is the sort of job that the State Security Service [as
10 interpreted] would be involved and the military police, but not the
11 intelligence service.
12 Q. What I mean to ask, if I could --
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, Your Honour --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just going to say to Mr. Salapura that that
15 was -- he's not answering the question. Can he please answer the
16 question. He was warned not to defend himself but to answer questions.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Maybe I can rephrase it a little bit better.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] -- the question.
19 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, just one intervention although it's not my
20 witness. It says here "State Security Service." I don't think that it's
22 MR. VANDERPUYE:
23 Q. Colonel, are you able to clarify whether or not you referred to
24 the State Security Service in your previous answer?
25 A. The public security service.
1 Q. The second question, and that related to the one that I
2 previously asked you, about whether or not this was consistent with what
3 we saw in the intercept. Let me try and rephrase it a little bit.
4 Is the fact that that Goran Saric issued an order to special
5 police brigade units to be engaged in the search of the terrain around
6 Cerska consistent with the resubordination of that unit to the VRS?
7 A. Well, this would not be consistent with the resubordination of a
8 unit, because in that case, it should read here that the unit which is
9 within the jurisdiction of Goran Saric, in other words the special unit,
10 should be subordinated to the Vlasenica Brigade, say, in order to mop-up
11 such and such a terrain in the area of Cerska and so on.
12 Q. Okay. Let me show you another document. I'm sorry, you're not
13 finished your answer?
14 A. No, no, I haven't.
15 This means that the police unit is independently carrying out
16 this assignment in keeping with a decision that was issued earlier on
17 between MUP and the Drina Corps but I don't know at which level.
18 Q. Okay. Let me show you another document. And before we go to
19 that document, I want you to keep in mind what units we're talking about
20 in this document, which is specifically referring to the units that are
21 engaged in the mopping-up of the right side of the Milici-Drinjaca road.
22 So let's go to the next one, which is P1579.
23 What you should have in front of you - and I think you do - is an
24 order that's issued by your commander, General Mladic, 17 July 1995 and
25 can you see that it refers to the integration of operations to crush
1 lagging Muslim forces. And it's an order. That is -- can you see that
2 it says "order," "naradjenje"?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. In paragraph 1 of this order, we see that General Mladic assigns
5 Nedjo Trkulja, Milovan Stankovic, and Bogdan Sladojevic to assist in
6 joining the VRS and MUP forces the planning and co-ordination of combat
7 operations to block, crush, destroy lagging Muslim forces in the wider
8 areas of Kamenica and Cerska.
9 Do you see that in paragraph 1?
10 A. Yes, I do. So it's a group which is supposed to co-ordinate the
11 joint activities of the MUP and the army. It does not follow from this
12 that the MUP unit was resubordinated to any of the units of the VRS. And
13 now there's a co-ordinating group, which will be there for both sides so
14 as to avoid overlap, losses as a result of that, to avoid having swaths
15 of terrain that are not covered by either side. So it's a co-ordinating
16 body which is monitoring the developments.
17 Q. Let me take you down to paragraph 3 --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Vanderpuye, could I keep the
19 witness for a moment with paragraph 1.
20 You are emphasizing the co-ordination efforts. If I read this
21 document well, it says:
22 "To assist in the joining of the VRS and MUP forces, the planning
23 and co-ordination of combat operations ..."
24 Now, you have not commented on the words "the joining of the VRS
25 and MUP forces," that is, that they are joined and then, of course,
1 operate in co-ordination.
2 Is there any comment you would have on the words "joining of the
3 VRS and the MUP forces ..."?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do. Joining up or combining in
5 our military terminology means co-ordination and activity that would be
6 focussed on the same goal. So you would be co-ordinating the activities
7 of both these sets of units in order to achieve the set goal.
8 This is what I was discussing earlier on. But for that purpose,
9 the MUP unit has not been resubordinated to the VRS unit in question.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, the reference to the co-ordination later
11 is superfluous because it is already comprised in the joining, if I
12 understand you well?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But throughout the operation,
14 somebody has to co-ordinate it and follow where each of the units is
15 located, whether one is ahead of the other and so on. Because that group
16 does not have a commander of its own. It doesn't have somebody who is in
17 charge because no one unit is resubordinated to the other, neither the
18 VRS unit to the MUP unit, nor the MUP unit to the VRS unit. That --
19 hence, the co-ordinating body.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you a different question, but the beginning
21 of your answer related to my question, at least to some extent.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Colonel, I was going to paragraph number 3 in this document. And
25 bearing in mind that this is an order, I want you to take a look at it.
1 In particular, what it says is that:
2 "As of 17 July, the forces of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry
3 Brigade, the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade, the 67th Communication
4 Regiment, the military police of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment,
5 and MUP forces engaged in the wider areas of Bratunac" and again we see
6 this particular unit, those that are particularly engaged in Milici and
7 Drinjaca, "will comb the terrain in the zone of the Bratunac, Drinjaca,
8 Milici, Beslici village with the aim of discovering and destroying
9 lagging Muslim groups."
10 Is that not an order with respect to the activities of not only
11 VRS units but the MUP units indicated?
12 A. Yes. This is an order from the commander of the Main Staff, yes.
13 Q. I'd like to show you one other document --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask another question.
15 In that paragraph 3, it is also said that the author appoints
16 Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic as the commander of all the aforementioned
17 forces during the conduct of the aforementioned task. Now, whatever may
18 have happened, is that an expression of subordinating all of the forces
19 to the command of this person?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is a different matter. In
21 this case, yes, an individual is being placed in charge of commanding
22 both the VRS units engaged in that particular assignment and the MUP.
23 And that individual is Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic or Colonel.
24 JUDGE ORIE: At least he is being appointed as such.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, on the 19th of July.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just -- Mr. Salapura, you just mentioned the
4 date of 19th of July. What do you mean by that? The document dates of
5 17th of July.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And refers to --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I saw down there --
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- and refers to the 19th of July as the date by
9 which the completion of the task should have been.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Your comment was not in response to a question and
12 was not accurate in reflection of what the document says.
13 You may proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I just want to show
15 the Colonel the document that he was shown yesterday, it's a
16 13 July document.
17 Bear with me, I'll give you the P number -- sorry it's a
18 D number, D00306. You'll remember, Mr. President, this is the one with
19 the -- for which we submitted a translation request. And I think we have
20 a translation but it's not yet uploaded to e-court, and I want to see if
21 we can show it in a different way.
22 Okay. I think we can show the updated English translation.
23 I think we can show the updated English translation in Sanction.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's all right. We can work with this.
1 Q. What I want to deal with with this particular document is not so
2 much the substance.
3 But you testified yesterday at transcript page 13042 that
4 General Tolimir would have received this document. You may remember that
5 Mr. Stojanovic asked you about that.
6 Do you remember that, sir?
7 A. 13 July.
8 Q. Let me just briefly read back what you --
9 A. [Previous translation continues]... yes. This is addressed to
10 the sector, and General Tolimir should have received this document.
11 Q. Okay. Now I just want to establish a couple of things.
12 One is that: On the night of 13 July, who in the Main Staff, in
13 the sector of security and intelligence, was present besides yourself and
14 your subordinates?
15 A. Tolimir had his secretary in the sector only, Spasoje Zelkovic.
16 Q. What about Colonel Beara?
17 A. That's the security administration, just as in my case, it was a
18 different administration. And in the sector itself, Tolimir was the
19 chief of sector, and he only had his secretary there. And you asked me
20 about the sector.
21 Q. Well, who under the sector, that is, either in the intelligence
22 administration or in the security administration, besides yourself and
23 your subordinates, was present on the night of 13 July 1995 at the
24 command of the Main Staff?
25 A. That I wouldn't be able to tell you.
1 Q. Was there anybody within the sector, either in the security side
2 or the intelligence side, higher ranking than you present there that
3 night, that is, night of 13 July 1995?
4 A. In the Main Staff there was General Miletic present, as far as I
5 remember; he was the chief of operations.
6 Q. I'm talking about within the sector of intelligence and security.
7 You indicated that OBP stood for Sector Of Intelligence And Security,
8 which we have to obviously update the translation in the English --
9 A. Intelligence and security, yes.
10 Q. Who within that sector on the night of 13 of July was higher
11 ranking than you and was present at the Main Staff?
12 A. On the 13th of July, no. I think ... I don't remember.
13 I think that General Tolimir wasn't there on the 13th of July.
14 There was General Miletic, and who was there from the security
15 administration? I don't know. I didn't go into their offices.
16 Q. You said at transcript page 13069 that during the days that you
17 were there you didn't see General Tolimir because he was in the area of
18 Rogatica and Zepa --
19 A. No, no. That's right.
20 Q. And just so that we are clear, Zepa was covered by the
21 Rogatica Brigade; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So the night of 13 July, which is the day that you arrived at the
24 Main Staff command post from Bijeljina, I think you said, to your
25 knowledge, you were the highest-ranking member of the intelligence and
1 security sector when this particular document was sent. So we see a
2 "sent" time there of 0030 hours, 14 July 1995. That night of 13 July,
3 you were the highest-ranking member of the intelligence and security
4 sector at the Main Staff. Is that right?
5 A. Yes. If Beara was engaged and was away, then it turns out, yes,
6 I was the highest ranking as a colonel.
7 Q. And just so we're clear, Radoslav Jankovic was a member of your
8 staff; right?
9 A. Yes, from the intelligence administration.
10 Q. In the normal chain of events, he would be responsible to report
11 to you; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I want to go to a different area, if I could.
14 Yesterday I asked you a series of questions about what you knew
15 about the Srebrenica executions and when you knew it. And in several of
16 your answers to both questions put by me and questions put by the
17 Chamber, you indicated that everybody knew about those executions.
18 Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes. I said that I believed that all those who were supposed to
20 know did know.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what you said. What you said is on the
22 transcript of the record. And if you say, I want to change what I said,
23 you're free to do so. But that's not what you said yesterday. Let that
24 be clear. And if there's any doubt to that, the parties know how to
25 verify that on the basis of the audio record.
1 And the only question at this moment that was asked was whether
2 you remember that you said what Mr. Vanderpuye put to you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I do remember. If I said
4 "everybody," I misspoke. I couldn't possibly have known that each and
5 every person in the army was aware of it. They didn't hold an assembly
6 to share the information. I said that all those who had that sort of
7 competence must have known, because the operation was carried out in the
8 AOR of the unit and the prisoners were taken through that zone.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Salapura, if you want to change what you said
10 yesterday, please indicate that. But don't tell us now that you said
11 yesterday what the transcript says you didn't say. What you said
12 yesterday: Everyone knew in town, let alone in the army.
13 That's what -- the words you used yesterday.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE:
16 Q. You -- you said just now the prisoners were taken through the
17 zone. And so yesterday you said that it involved transporting,
18 logistics, engineering. These are all things you said yesterday that
19 required a certain degree of co-ordination.
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. I think your answer is not recorded in the record.
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And the movement of prisons is something that everything knew
1 about at the time that they were moved, right, Colonel?
2 A. Well, not everyone could know. I don't know what you mean. If
3 you meant the civilian population and all that, that's absurd. And I
4 would really appreciate it if what I said yesterday, my words yesterday,
5 could be reiterated here to me in my language. It's impossible that I've
6 just said it in those terms, and if I did it was a slip of the tongue.
7 Q. Let me read it back to you then. You were asked this question at
8 page -- transcript page 13102 lines 2 to 11, the following question and
9 the following answer:
10 "Q. Let me come right to it then. You knew at the time that you
11 received this information that everyone in the Main Staff knew, including
12 General Mladic, about those crimes, right?"
13 And your answer is:
14 "I can't say that everybody knew. I can't say that. Most did.
15 For example, some of my desk officers may have well been unaware. They
16 were busy with their own thing and did not have much contact with the
17 others but realistically speaking, yes, probably many people knew because
18 it was a sizeable operation. Those people needed to be transported,
19 logistic units engaged, transport organised, engineering -- the
20 engineering corps activated, so many people were probably engaged in it."
21 That's one answer to one question.
22 You were asked another question by the Presiding Judge, which is
23 at transcript page --
24 A. Correct. Correct. Okay.
25 Q. -- 13101, lines 1 through 15, in a follow-up to a question that I
1 put to you:
2 "Q. Did you not report this crime because you knew that other
3 members of the Main Staff were fully aware of it, both how horrifying it
4 was and of its scale and who committed it?"
5 The Presiding Judge then asked you:
6 "Or was it that the other part of the question or was it that you
7 had no obligation to report?"
8 And your answer is:
9 "Yes, it is it correct. I heard there, as well as from my
10 operative that I talked to, everyone knew. I think even the whole town
11 knew about it, let alone the army."
12 That's just part of what you said yesterday. You stand by that,
13 I take it?
14 A. I would appreciate it if you could just repeat this segment. Can
15 you reproduce it in Serbian, just that segment where it says the whole
16 town knew let alone the army. If I can hear it again in Serbian.
17 Because in December I said in Bijeljina that I received that information
18 from my operatives.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It will be verified, Mr. Salapura, don't worry.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE:
21 Q. My question to you today is you made a previous reference just
22 now to the prisoners moving through the zone as one of the reasons why
23 people knew or had to know about the crimes.
24 Is that a fair assessment of what you just said?
25 A. Well, yes, they were transported. And if that was being done
1 during the day, people probably could see that, the way they were moved,
2 and some people certainly did, but I can't really say everyone. But some
3 did probably.
4 Q. Who would have to know about something like that, to move
5 prisoners through corps or even through brigades within a corps, whether
6 it's at night, during the day-time, or even if it's moving them from a
7 football stadium to a town nearby? Who would have to know about that?
8 A. Well, I don't know which nearby town you mean, but whoever
9 ordered the transport to be carried out and the movement of the
10 prisoners, the person who was in charge.
11 Q. Let me put it this way: What about the people that would be
12 required to secure the prisoners, would they have to know if the
13 prisoners were moved? Military police, security officers, would they
14 have to know?
15 A. Probably, yes. Probably those who secured them, who guarded
16 them, yes, they could see that these people were being put on trucks and
17 taken away, or on buses or whatever the way it was.
18 Q. What about the people responsible for arranging their exchange
19 during a time of war, would they have to know where the prisoners were or
20 being -- where they were being moved at any given point in time?
21 A. Well, I really can't say about that. I don't know whether and
22 when they were informed, if they were. There were exchange commissions
23 with the Main Staff and there were also corps commissions for the
24 exchanges of prisoners. Now when it was that they were informed, and
25 they probably were, I really don't know. But I've already told you that
1 I did not have any role. I didn't -- I wasn't involved in that operation
2 at all, so I don't know how it was organised. All I was saying was of a
3 general nature. I can't tell you specifically, you know, so-and-so or
4 so-and-so did that, because I wasn't engaged in that operation.
5 Q. What I'd like to know is why you say you don't know. Why is it
6 that you say you don't know when, as the chief of intelligence of the
7 intelligence administration of the Main Staff of the VRS, one of your
8 core functions is to extract or obtain intelligence from sources, such as
9 prisoners of war? Why is it that say that you don't know what happened
10 to the prisoners that you saw at the football when one of your core
11 functions is to interrogate them or see that information that is relevant
12 and important for the command and control of the Main Staff and of the
13 army is extracted for the benefit of its commander?
14 Why is that?
15 A. Well, that wasn't our core function. Our core function was to
16 gather all information on the enemy. There was the -- because the
17 Srebrenica operation had already been completed, militarily, and we were
18 the -- the -- the brunt of our operation now was -- the focus of our
19 intelligence activity was on the Tuzla Corps and to see whether they
20 would be moving towards us.
21 Now as for that these zones and units, I don't know exactly and
22 precisely which unit was where. I didn't take part directly in this.
23 There could have been officers at the lower-level battalion perhaps
24 that -- who would want to obtain some information that was relevant to
25 them. Maybe they would have been there, but as far as Srebrenica was
1 concerned, because that had already been completed, that operation, there
2 was nothing of intelligence relevance to us anymore. So our focus moved
3 to the Tuzla Corps. But there could have been officers, security
4 officers, or my officers who would still be involved trying to gather
5 some information because there may have been perhaps within those groups
6 of prisoners those who had committed some crimes during the war and so
7 on. So that would be the type of information that they would want to
8 gather perhaps.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just ask for clarifications.
10 Mr. Salapura, you're saying that -- you say that there could have
11 been some security officers or your officers. And if your officers were
12 there, they would have to make their report that would finally get to
13 you, wouldn't they?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that would be the battalion
15 officer. I was the chief of the intelligence administration of the
16 Main Staff. So if they thought that there was something relevant, they
17 will send a telegram. I was not involved. I didn't get involved in the
18 work. Do you understand? I was waiting for any day then I was supposed
19 to go back. And I told Maric --
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the name.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- or Mandic that they should go on
22 and work as if I hadn't been there. I was stopped because the traffic
23 was stopped. There was no movement towards Zvornik. So I did not get
24 involved in the work in any way.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Salapura, can I stop you, please. My question
1 was very simple. Your subordinates who might have been there would have
2 to report and through the chain of command the report would come to you.
3 Is it so or is it not so? Yes or no. Don't explain anything to me.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if it was assessed that it
5 was relevant, it would arrive. The security officers at the battalion
6 would then inform the brigade officer, and he would, in turn, inform the
7 corps officer. And they would send the information up to me, but --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I please stop you. May I please stop you.
9 Please, if you can say either yes or no to my question, I'll be happy.
10 Don't give me a story.
11 They would have to report through the chain of command, and the
12 report would get to you; is that the correct procedure?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What -- what would arrive? That
14 there were prisoners there. Yes, there would be information that there
15 were prisoners in this place and in that place and in that place.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me stop you. Let me stop you. The record
17 will show that you don't want to answer my question. My question just
18 wanted a yes or no. Thank you very much.
19 Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 I want to show the witness, if I could, 65 ter 4643.
22 Q. You'll recognise this, sir, as a document you referred to
23 yesterday or the day before. This is the intelligence support manual
24 that I referred you to in your direct examination.
25 And what I'd like to do first is to go to paragraph --
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. -- paragraph number 17, which is on page 19 in the English, page
3 25 in the B/C/S, please.
4 What this refers to are the basic duties of the intelligence
5 organ. In says in commands and staffs of the JNA and TO. And you can
6 see there that it says:
7 "To organise, direct, and co-ordinate overall intelligence and
8 reconnaissance activities," and so forth?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. The second thing in this section is:
11 "To constantly gather and process intelligence about the enemy."
13 A. Absolutely.
14 Q. And that --
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. I would like to take you now to paragraph 198, that's page 59 in
17 the English and page 74 in the B/C/S.
18 And what you can see there is a reference to the process of
19 questioning prisoners of war and defectors.
20 Page 74 in the B/C/S; page 59 in the English, please.
21 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. What we can see here is under paragraph 198:
23 "Intelligence organs in commands and staff question prisoners of
24 war and defectors for the purpose of gathering intelligence, through
25 organs of certain specialty that are set up especially for that purpose."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And so to the extent that prisoners of war are moved from place
4 to place or from one place to another, the intelligence organ has a role
5 in questioning them and gaining information from them. Is that fair to
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And prisoners of war are questioned for a variety of purposes;
10 A. I do not dispute that. Yes, they may.
11 Q. So the number of prisoners that you've referred or the
12 prisoners -- the fact that they are moving through a zone of
13 responsibility, either from brigade to brigade or corps to corps, is
14 something that the intelligence sector should be aware of; right?
15 A. Well, probably the intelligence organ in the battalion would know
16 about that but not intelligence sector. Because this is still within the
17 AOR of the corps. So, yes, the corps organs, they should know.
18 Q. The corps organs report to the Main Staff, don't they?
19 A. They do report the Main Staff, but they would do that in the
20 regular combat report, in the regular intelligence report. There is no
21 rush because Srebrenica had already been taken over. It was a completed
23 So in intelligence interpreters, Srebrenica was not relevant
24 anymore, it was not of interest. The focus of the intelligence
25 operation - and I'm trying to explain this so you can understand - of all
1 the organs within the Drina Corps were now -- the focus was shifted to
2 Tuzla, the Tuzla Corps. We were expecting a counter-attack and in fact
3 it did happen later on an, and there were certain movements and
4 manoeuvres that we monitored. But as for the questioning of these
5 prisoners, there was time for that and it was considered that they would
6 end up in a camp and then the questioning could go on for the next month
7 or so. So there was nothing urgent that could be obtained from them any
8 more. There was no information of such priority that they could provide.
9 Q. Colonel, you are aware, are you not, that one pressing priority
10 that the VRS had on 13th July when you went down to the Main Staff was a
11 column of thousands of individuals coming up behind the defence lines
12 towards the Zvornik area; right?
13 Were you aware of that?
14 A. Yes, they were moving towards Tuzla. Yes.
15 Q. Thousands of them, right?
16 A. I saw such persons in Srebrenica even. Yes. And this column, it
17 was moving towards Tuzla, one of them, even towards Srebrenica -- rather,
18 towards Tuzla. I was intercepted on the road. I was stooped because of
19 the operations and that -- that was moving towards Tuzla. I was stopped
20 when I started out. I was stopped at the command post.
21 Q. You issued an order or direction on the 15th of July to jam their
22 communications, didn't you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you were aware, at the very least, that there was a large
25 group, some of whom are armed, moving towards the defence lines from the
1 rear from Srebrenica in the direction of Zvornik. You wouldn't consider
2 that pressing information or intelligence information to gain for the
3 benefit of the commander of the Main Staff? You don't think it would
4 have been useful to ask somebody at Nova Kasaba or Sandici about where
5 the column is, how big it is, how may people are there, how armed are
6 they or not, what direction they're going, what communications they have
7 with the 2nd Corps on the other side? You don't think that that would
8 have been useful information to provide to the commander of the
9 Main Staff?
10 A. Well, I think that this was information that was collected by the
11 officers at the lower levels, battalions and brigades. And they would
12 then forward to the forward command post, to the commander. And we
13 jammed ...
14 Q. All right. Are you aware that --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I see that it's time for a break.
16 Could you inform the Chamber how much more time you would need?
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have just -- well, I have just a couple of
18 questions on this issue, and then I have one document I wanted to show
19 the witness and that should wrap it up --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if --
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: So I would say between 15 minutes and a half an
23 JUDGE ORIE: Try to finish in 20 minutes --
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: I will. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: After the break.
1 We'll take a break. But the witness first may leave the
2 courtroom and can follow the usher.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to
6 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
9 Meanwhile, I ask the attention for the following. An e-mail has
10 been sent to all the parties and to Chamber's staff on the -- I think it
11 was on the 20th of -- or even the 19th of June, about the use of charts
12 with witnesses RM0279, RM316, RM506, and RM507, charts related to
14 We have not heard from the Defence whether there are any
15 objections against this way of proceeding. It is not uncommon to use
16 charts, and the Chamber, of course, needs assistance in understanding
18 Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: As you already know, Your Honour, we do not like
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: It dumps too many documents on us, so we have to deal
23 in a limited time-frame with more documents that we are used -- supposed
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. LUKIC: So we are never in favour of having those charts.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is -- you don't like it, but there's no
3 solid objection against it on legal grounds.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- you referred to the burden it puts upon the
6 Defence, and if that causes major problems. And I think the first few
7 are with a limited number of intercepts. But I would have to
8 look exactly -- the large number is with RM507 and he is scheduled after
9 the summer recess.
10 MR. LUKIC: And I'm sorry to maybe interrupt you, but we do
11 object not only because it puts a burden on us and we also have to be
12 cautious because we work on a day-by-day basis. So we are not familiar
13 still whether we really have substantial objections to those intercepts
14 or not.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
16 MR. LUKIC: We will have to wait until the witnesses are here --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which then means --
18 MR. LUKIC: -- or a few days before when we are ready to
19 cross-examine --
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- that the Chamber --
21 MR. LUKIC: -- those witnesses.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- the Chamber then only has to consider whether we
23 allow the Prosecution, at this moment, to proceed as suggested and we'll
24 then hear of any further objections at a later stage.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 The Prosecution is allowed to proceed as suggested, and I think
3 it is clear now on the record what the position of the Defence is.
4 Mr. Salapura, this was not very relevant for you, but we started
5 with a small procedural matter.
6 Before I give an opportunity to Mr. Vanderpuye to conclude his
7 re-examination, I would like you to listen to, as you asked, to your own
8 words, spoken yesterday in B/C/S. And the Chamber would very much
9 appreciate if we could again receive interpretation for those words.
10 And if you would just give me a second so that I can have on my
11 one screen my yesterday transcript, and then I'll look at today's
12 transcript on the basis of the audio recording.
13 One second, please. One second.
14 We will play two minutes of your testimony of yesterday so that
15 you are able to see whether it's ill-interpreted or whether it's ill
16 transcribed, as you claimed it may have been.
17 Madam Registrar, could we start.
18 [Audio-recording played]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop for a second. Is it possible that we
20 again receive interpretation of those words spoken yesterday so that I am
21 better able to see where there may be a possible problem? There may be
22 no problem at all.
23 THE INTERPRETER: It is possible. The portion that we've just
24 heard was the interpretation from English into B/C/S. The original was
25 English, so we did not interpret it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, yes. I do understand, and if you would
2 then -- if we would receive interpretation, especially of the words
3 spoken in B/C/S, because that's what we're focussed on. Then ...
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters also interpret the B/C/S
5 booth, because that's what we are hearing now?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if I would know exactly -- well, of course,
7 then we also know what the witness heard when the question was put to
8 him, so then we have the complete picture. And if you're able to do
9 that, I would be very, very pleased.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Very well. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we re-start the two minutes.
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "So you couldn't even imagine the
13 scale of that. You, as a high-ranking officer of the VRS, did you feel
14 that it was not your responsibility to submit a report, or was it that
15 you did not submit a report because you knew that everybody already knew
16 of these events? Now, did you not report on this crime because you knew
17 that other members of the Main Staff were fully aware of it and the
18 atrocity and the scale of the crime. Now did you -
19 "JUDGE ORIE: Did you -- was this the answer to your other part
20 of your -- of the question or was it the first part of the question?
21 "THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard from the operatives
22 and everybody already knew about it I think. I think it had already even
23 leaked out into the town, so I believe that it was ongoing. It was in a
25 "JUDGE ORIE: Let me then try to see whether I understood your
1 answer correctly.
2 Are you trying to say that you were duty-bound to report on it
3 but it was not necessary to do so because everybody was already --
4 everybody was already apprised of it; is that how you should under your
6 "THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what I learned after I
7 talked to my operatives, that's the gist.
8 "JUDGE ORIE: No, no, you've already replied.
9 Mr. Vanderpuye, you may pose your next question.
10 "MR. VANDERPUYE: Well, I will ask for a clarification.
11 "Q. Colonel, when you say 'everybody knew,' do you mean everyone
12 at the Main Staff, is that it?
13 "A. Well, the then-organs ..."
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for this having been played.
15 Do you have any comment on having now listened to the B/C/S
16 version of what you testified yesterday? You earlier said you may have
17 misspoke. You may have misspoken. Is there anything you would like to
18 add at this moment because you asked for the verification?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is all right. It is
20 correct. I said all of that. Everybody knew when my subordinates
21 informed me and when you ask whether the command organs knew, I said
22 everybody knew. And I meant that part, the inner circle, as it were.
23 And I said it had already leaked in the town that part of the -- some of
24 the people, of the civilian population, they also knew. I didn't mean
25 that everyone in the town knew. So it's all right.
1 So when I said "everyone," or "all," I meant the staff, those who
2 dealt with those issues and worked there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I noted there are some slight differences
4 between the translation of today and the translation of yesterday. The
5 Chamber will have it verified especially where the words are used, either
6 "it leaked into town," or whether "everyone knew in town," that may need
7 some further attention. We'll ask for a verification, especially of that
9 Then, Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Colonel, at the break I'd asked you some questions about who
12 would have known about these crimes at the time that they were being
13 committed. And I asked you about whether or not the military police
14 would know, whether or not the police would know, and whether or not
15 those who were interrogating or responsible for interrogating prisoners
16 would know, and exchange commissions, and so on.
17 Do you recall that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it correct that those units or people would know at that time?
20 A. Well, there are two things here.
21 The Tribunal is focussed on Srebrenica, and that is the main
22 problem. For my service and for me, this is a tactical problem, whereas
23 I dealt with strategic problems and the focus of my work was in the west
24 and the service overall. At the moment when Srebrenica was taken over,
25 it became irrelevant to us. The focus of the intelligence work was
1 shifted. And I repeat that --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Salapura -- Mr. Salapura -- Mr. Salapura, why
3 not answer the question? The question simply was whether it's correct
4 that those units or people would know at the time.
5 Would they know, or would they not know at the time?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, those units that were -- that
7 dealt with it, they probably knew. They had to know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE:
10 Q. The units that dealt with it had to report what they were doing
11 to the superior organs; right? That's how a military works, isn't it?
12 A. Probably, yes.
13 Q. Not "probably." My question is: Do you know that to be true?
14 A. That's how it ought to be, but it is up to the competent
15 commanding or senior officer who will decide when the reporting will take
16 place. I can tell you that for the duration of my stay at Han Pijesak, I
17 did not get that involved into work by Mamlic told me that he was not
18 receiving information from the Drina Corps.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, when I give you a sign that I want to
20 intervene, you should stop speaking. Is that clear to you?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's clear.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please abide by that.
23 What happens here is the following. Mr. Vanderpuye, you're
24 asking a question whether these units had to report what they were doing
25 to the superior organs. That is a question dealing with what the duties
1 were. Now, the witness apparently is focussed on what happened, whether
2 or not in line with the duties, that creates this confusion. Because if
3 the witness says "probably," then he wants to say - at least that's how I
4 understand him - that that is the way it should be and probably happened
5 but he doesn't know.
6 Now, this is the result of asking not questions of fact but,
7 rather, questions asking about what should have been done instead of what
8 was done. That creates the confusion, and that is the reason why factual
9 questions to a witness of fact avoid such confusion.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Can I show you, please, P1589.
13 Colonel, do you recognise this document?
14 A. Yes, absolutely, and I recall it well.
15 Q. It's -- it's from you and it's signed by you, is it -- is it not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And this is the document that referred to the jamming of
18 communications of - as it reads here - part of the -- scattered parts of
19 the 26th Division. It should say "28th Division," as we can see in the
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: And, Mr. President, we will submit a request to
22 amend this translation.
23 Q. But you can see on the left of your -- of the document in the
24 B/C/S, and we can blow that up so that everyone can see what division it
25 refers to specifically, it's in the second line.
1 A. The 28th Division. The document states the "28th" and the
2 translation the "26th."
3 Q. And specifically this is the direction or order, as it were, to
4 start jamming radio communications between the 28th Division and the
5 2nd Corps of the ABiH, yes?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that refers to the situation that was unfolding with the
8 movement of the 28th Division or parts of the 28th Division through the
9 territory to the rear of the Zvornik Brigade towards Baljkovica; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And on the other side of the Zvornik Brigade, that is, on the
12 other side of the defence line is where the 2nd Corps was situated at
13 that time; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You issued this order based on information that was relayed to
16 you, I take it, at the Main Staff during the period of time that you were
18 A. Yes, most probably. I can't be fully certain. We probably
19 intercepted information from the 2nd Corps that they would be mounting an
20 attack in order to join up with these scattered groups, and we got that
21 through electronic reconnaissance, I suppose.
22 I issued a task to start jamming the radio communications of the
23 2nd Corps units. The units that were mounting an attack.
24 Q. All right. I just wanted to clarify that that's the order that
25 you issued and that it was based upon information that reached you at the
1 Main Staff of the VRS. Is that --
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] One point. The word used was
7 "order" and the document before us is not an order. The witness did say
8 repeatedly that he was not in a position to issue orders.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Whether order or not, the Chamber will focus on the
10 text of the document. And whether the words "start doing something" is
11 an order or a suggestion or a advice or a -- we'll consider that.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. I'd like to just take you to the next day, the 14th of July --
15 rather, the previous day, 14th of July, 1995.
16 And you remember that this is the day that you are recorded in
17 the duty officer's notebook of the Zvornik Brigade passing on a message
18 to get in contact for Beara, Colonel Beara, and Drago Nikolic to get in
19 contact with your subordinate, Major Pavle Golic.
20 Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could have 65 ter 8227 in e-court, please.
23 Q. I want to show you a document. You were asked about your duties
24 and essentially what you were doing between the time that you arrived at
25 Crna Rijeka on the 13th and the time that you left, about the 18th of
1 July, 1995. This is a --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This is the diary of an individual named Bob Djurdjevic. You can
4 see his name at the bottom. And in this diary, he records a meeting that
5 he had with you on the 14th of July, 1995.
6 First, do you recognise the name, Bob Djurdjevic?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember this person?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, perhaps.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE:
10 Q. I'd like to show -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
11 A. I think I do remember Djurdjevic, Bob. Yes, I think I do
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have been informed that we actually do have a
14 fully translated version of this -- no? A partial translated version of
15 this under 65 ter 25979. So if we could call that one up, please.
16 Q. Okay. What I'd like to do is to take you first to page 44. I
17 don't think we have a translation of that but just so that we can see the
18 date that we're talking, and then we'll move up to the section I want to
19 discuss with you.
20 Here you can see it reflects the date of 14 July 1995. And if we
21 can just page in sequence up to page 47, we'll see the reference that I
22 want to discuss with you. And also we can see that there's no
23 intervening date.
24 This is the reference that we have concerning Mr. Djurdjevic's
25 meeting with you?
1 A. Yes, my name is mentioned mere.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: And we do have the B/C/S translation of this.
3 So if we could show this to the witness, I'd like him to have a look at
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'd like to see it. I don't
6 know what this is about. I don't remember.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think we've got it now.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But the English has disappeared in the meantime.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. And it refers to a meeting that he had with you, 14 July 1995.
11 It says:
12 "Lunch at the officers' mess plus a meeting at officer Djukic's
13 office in Han Pijesak with Colonel Salapura," PS, as he designates you in
14 this --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, could you guide us to where the date
16 exactly appears?
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: The date was at page 44 in the English.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine. So that you say it's the previous
19 day -- the previous page.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I don't think it is the previous page. This is
21 it page 47. But we can --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes 44 -- no, it's fine. I'll find it, no
24 MR. VANDERPUYE:
25 Q. In this document, Colonel, you can see Mr. Djurdjevic recalls a
1 meeting he had with you on the afternoon between 1345 and 1545 hours on
2 14 July 1995. Have you had a chance to look a little bit at the first
3 entry there, under "lunch"? He talks about a --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about that meeting?
6 A. No. Believe me, I don't remember. It was probably a short
7 meeting, perhaps even an accidental meeting. And it could have been at
8 Han Pijesak where the rear was, the logistics. I see that mention is
9 made of the officers' mess.
10 Q. Yes. He mentions that you also suggested that you go upstairs
11 where you can talk in peace and that you ended up in the same office
12 which belonged to General Djukic. That's in the second paragraph of --
13 I'm sorry, in the third paragraph under "lunch" --
14 A. It is possible. I'm not denying it. I just don't remember.
15 Q. Okay. What I want to ask you about we can find on the next page,
16 in particular. I think we go to the same -- the next page in both
18 And you'll see at the top, Mr. Djurdjevic has written down the
19 following. It says: "War to extinction." And then he quotes you as
21 "This war will not be over when some politicians sign a peace
22 treaty. This war will end when one of the three nations in Bosnia
23 becomes extinct. We have to make sure we're not the one."
24 Do you remember saying that to Mr. Djurdjevic?
25 A. No, I don't remember. I don't remember ever holding such views
1 or positions.
2 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Djurdjevic testified in the Karadzic case
3 in 2012?
4 A. No. No.
5 Q. On the 7th of March, 2012, he testified in that case and he was
6 asked this question and gave this answer. Reading the same paragraph, or
7 rather, the same quote to him, he was asked this question:
8 "Does that accurately reflect what Colonel Salapura told you,"
9 and this is, by the way, for the benefit of the Chamber, transcript of
10 those proceedings page 25917, 7 March 2012.
11 "Does this accurately reflect what Colonel Salapura told you?"
12 And his answer was:
13 "It does."
14 Do you deny making it or is it that you can't recall saying it?
15 A. Look, I don't remember this detail. And I think that I've stated
16 it already for perhaps 20 times that the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina
17 would not be permanently resolved for as long as two peoples would be
18 joining up against the third people. And I stand by this today. And as
19 for this, I don't remember.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Salapura, I instructed you when I made clear to
21 you that I want to intervene that you should stop speaking. Is that
22 clear to you? Once again. Otherwise, I will take over the examination
23 in the way I want it to be conducted.
24 The question was not about what you may have said, at what point
25 in time, about similar things. The question was about whether you
1 remember or you do not remember that meeting and whether, if you
2 remember, that this is what you said, or that this is not what you said;
3 or that you just don't remember whether you said such a thing.
4 The start of the answer was related to the question, where you
5 said, I don't remember this detail. Which I understand to be that - and
6 I'll ask you that - that you don't remember that you would have spoken
7 those words. At the same time, it suggests that you do remember that you
8 had a conversation with this person.
9 So, therefore, two questions: Do you remember to have had a
10 conversation with person?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Second: You do not remember to have used those
13 words, or do you have a recollection that you certainly did not use those
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember ever using such
17 JUDGE ORIE: Also not during that conversation?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I don't remember using
19 them, and I believe I did not.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 And next time, Mr. Salapura, if, again, you think that to
22 continue talking when I intervene that that is the appropriate way of
23 conduct in this courtroom, we'll take a different course.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. That just about does
1 it for me and I'd like to tender this -- this document. I suppose I will
2 tender just the part that I've -- that I've used with Colonel Salapura.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? Not.
4 Madam Registrar.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you referred to two 65 ter numbers.
8 Now which one -- is it the second one --
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, sir. It's 25 --
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- that's 25979.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's right, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- that is the one you wish to tender and we have it
13 translated. Has it been uploaded already? It has not been uploaded
15 Therefore we reserve a number for it, pending the uploading of
16 this document.
17 Madam Registrar, the number would be --
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would ask for a suffix perhaps for the 65 ter
19 number 25979A, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 275 -- I think it's ...
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you please repeat the number.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: 25 --
23 JUDGE ORIE: 25979A.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Will receive number P1590, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. It is a number reserved
1 and the Chamber would like to be informed as soon as it is uploaded.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: The document ID ...
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm informed that I should request to replace
5 the translation of D00306, that was the document referred to the
6 intelligence and security service, which erroneously previously referred
7 to it as just the intelligence sector. There was a 13 July document,
8 document ID 00663716-ET.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And there were two potential translation problems
10 identified. The first one was the one you mentioned. The other one was
11 the two or not, who was the addressee of that document.
12 Has that been verified as well?
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand they've both been addressed,
14 Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: They've both been addressed.
16 Then hereby leave is granted to replace the English translation
17 in e-court, Madam Registrar.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we look at the English translation of D306 at
21 this moment, which is now uploaded Madam Registrar, so that we can see
22 what has changed.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that the Defence will also
25 carefully look at the new English translation and see whether there's any
1 problem remaining.
2 For the time being now, then, we will -- the document can now be
3 admitted into evidence. There was no objection. It was even ...
4 Mr. Mladic has an audio problem apparently. Could the usher
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think we have any
7 objections to this, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think even that -- that you tendered the document,
9 Mr. Stojanovic, so that there's no objection goes without saying, I would
10 say. It's --
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour. But, of
12 course, it's impossible for me to see what the differences are between
13 the initial translation and this one in this one moment. That's why I
14 expressed this reservation, because I can't see the differences.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there's any problem, you may revisit the
17 Madam Registrar, it was -- D306 is admitted into evidence.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: And I am not certain whether I should instruct you
20 also to remove it as an MFI, but I think it's implicit in admission into
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we give an opportunity to the Defence for
24 further examination of the witness, the Chamber would have a few
25 questions as well.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Salapura, could you explain to me again what
3 exactly was the reason that you travelled to the area and were trying to
4 find out where Mr. Mladic was? What exactly was it that you wanted to
5 see him about?
6 A. The point was to inform General Mladic that the Croatian army was
7 preparing an attack on the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, that the
8 Krajina would not be able to hold out for long because of the internal
9 problems that it had, and that the activities would spill over to the
10 territory of the western part of Republika Srpska.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Was that the only reason why you wanted to see him
12 and what you wanted to talk about with him?
13 A. There were some other issues that I had, but I don't think I even
14 had time to relay them because General Mladic was in a hurry, we had to
15 interrupt our conversation, and I left. I had another meeting there with
16 some -- or rather, I had some -- a meeting with some diplomatic
17 represents in Belgrade, like, for instance, the Japanese representative
18 who recommended that we accord a fair treatment to the prisoners of war
19 and that we draw as much publicity to it as we can --
20 THE INTERPRETER: And can the witness repeat the last thing he
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last thing you said, Witness.
23 A. Since our image in the world was already a negative one, and I'm
24 referring to the coverage in the media.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, that other meeting with some diplomatic persons
1 in Belgrade, had that taken place? And what -- was that a matter you
2 wanted to discuss with Mr. Mladic or did it still have to take place?
3 A. No. That meeting was already held at the time when I was in
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said there was a third subject you
6 would like to discuss with Mr. Mladic.
7 A. Yes. Now I don't remember anymore what it was. I have to think
8 about it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as soon as you remember --
10 A. I think that this was the main issues. Anything else could only
11 have been of secondary importance.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said: "... we had to interrupt our
13 conversation and I left."
14 Now, what did you discuss with Mr. Mladic before the conversation
15 was interrupted? Was it the Krajina matter or was it the issue you're --
16 yes, please.
17 A. Yes, we discussed the Krajina issue. I relayed what the problem
18 was, and then I also shared a number of details as to why I believed the
19 defence would be short-lived and what sort of consequences this might
20 have for us, et cetera. I think that General Mladic had another meeting
21 that he go to -- he had to go to or something else. At any rate, we just
22 shook hands. I went my way and he went his, with his escort. I think he
23 had another meeting or perhaps an interview he had to go to.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the issue of the prisoners of war, you did
25 not, as you had heard from -- by a Japanese diplomate. That was never
1 the subject of any discussion at that point in time with Mr. Mladic?
2 A. No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: In your previous testimony, you told us that the --
4 there was a kind of an offer for assistance to resolve any potential
5 problems in relation to prisoners of war. Did you -- and I could read
6 that to you.
7 "We could perhaps help out in changing this image of you that the
8 world has," that apparently were the words spoken or the message given to
9 you by the Japanese diplomat.
10 Did you consider that not of greatest priority at that moment to
11 discuss --
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But you didn't find time to do that?
14 A. Well, I said briefly what it was I was supposed to discuss with
15 the General. He waved his hand by way of hello and he went on his way,
16 so what were you to do? We were soldiers.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 A. He probably had more pressing business rather than just continue
19 this conversation with me.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But we also saw you in a rather relaxed atmosphere
21 in the house of a person where it did not give the impression that
22 everyone was in such a hurry, that not even two or three lines could be
23 spent on what you considered a very important matter.
24 Do you have any explanation for that?
25 A. I don't know what you're referring to. I know that he went
1 there. I can't recall now whether that was something that had been
2 scheduled earlier or something, I really don't know. But that you saw me
3 while I was --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You could have stopped after "I don't know
5 what you are referring to," because I would have explained to you that I
6 was referring to a video image where you are at -- just behind a lady. I
7 think it was shown to you during examination and you identified yourself
8 as being there in a -- could I say in a family environment, where
9 Mr. Mladic had a conversation with that lady about her job and whether
10 she would work again in a similar job.
11 That is what I'm referring to. That -- that didn't give me the
12 impression that such matters of huge importance could in no way have been
13 discussed with Mr. Mladic.
14 Do you have an explanation as how you spent time on these matters
15 and not find time for discussion of very urgent and important matters?
16 A. I don't understand what less important matters we were
17 discussing. I didn't talk about anything in that house. This was before
18 the meeting with General Mladic. I wanted to talk with him, but he sort
19 of just gestured and then led me with him towards that house. So he was
20 the one who spoke to this woman, not me. I just listened on to the
21 conversation. I can't recall what it was about. I think this was shown
22 on TV.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I leave that explanation for the time
25 Not having had an opportunity to bring this in a conversation to
1 the attention of Mr. Mladic, what did you do afterwards to bring this
2 very important matter to his intention -- to his attention? If you did
3 anything; if not, please tell us. If you did, please tell us what you
5 A. No. Nothing. And on my way back, I saw --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's an answer.
7 Did you bring it to anyone else's attention, this urgent problem
8 raised by the Japanese diplomat?
9 A. The issue was not urgent; but, no, I did not inform anyone else.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
11 I have another question. You have seen a number of documents,
12 you've commented on some of them, documents which suggest that you were
13 not just waiting in order to be able to leave and get the medical care
14 you needed but that you played a role in the events.
15 Do you remember others talking about your role, issuing whether
16 or not an order but at least telling who should jam the communications of
17 the other party? The -- you've seen a number of these reports.
18 Is there any fact you could tell us about which explains why
19 others, and including yourself in that instruction, to jam the
20 communications? Put you in a position of at least some involvement in
21 the events, whereas you're telling us again and again that you played no
22 role whatsoever.
23 Do you have any fact which we should know in order to better
24 understand the discrepancy between your version and the version which is
25 depicted in some of these documents that have been put to you and which
1 we looked at?
2 A. I've told you that when I came to my room at the command post, I
3 only found Major Mamlic there and the staff-sergeant. It is possible
4 that Mamlic was there when these people came or maybe he had been out to
5 lunch or had gone to see Miletic, General Miletic. But I happened to be
6 there, and when the warrant officer received that, he called me to see
7 what to do about it; and then when I saw that it was urgent, I reacted
8 immediately, not waiting for him to come back. I believe this was on two
9 or three occasions that these things happened. I never left that room.
10 If you allow me to explain. If the administration had to have a
11 role in that operation, and I'm not talking about myself, I'm just one
12 person, the two key persons there had left --
13 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. I asked you for facts. You've given us
14 one fact that you were in a position, whereas you said if others were not
15 there you would help out by just doing what effectively what others
16 should have done.
17 And the same -- do you have any fact to your knowledge which
18 explains why the instruction to jam the -- to jam the communications of
19 the other party, why that was done by you?
20 A. There was no one who could issue anything to this unit for
21 electronic reconnaissance, at this point in time.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the last issue I would like to ask you
23 about is the fake IDs.
24 You told us that the fake IDs for - if I could say so -
25 foreigners who had participated in the operation, that they did not ask
1 for the fake IDs but it was your assessment that they would need them.
2 On what exactly was that based, your assessment?
3 A. We had information from before based on two cases. We had
4 information that the Muslim intelligence service had an interest in
5 certain persons, and we had already previously wanted to change their
6 place where they were. So these were individuals from the Bosnian
7 Federation mainly. Now that's one.
8 Secondly, when I received information that the group had taken
9 part in executing the prisoners of war, then I sat down with two or three
10 other men, and we assessed that in view of the border being non-existent
11 anymore, that there was no front line anymore between the two armies,
12 that it was possible easily to infiltrate lines and kidnap the enemy
13 personnel. That's one thing.
14 The second thing is, whoever engaged them in such operations
15 might try to get rid of them, to liquidate them. So this was the
16 objective and this is why we did this in a very legal way. We went
17 through the Ministry of the Interior. We submitted the request, noting
18 which persons these were and whose identities should be changed. There
19 were Croats and Muslims among them. If need be, that was the reason --
20 that was the case. That's how it was. We felt that their security was
21 threatened. In order to prevent some people from taking justice in their
22 own hands, we did this.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any explanation why in the request
24 you're referring to ICTY indictments rather than to all those reasons you
25 are now giving us?
1 A. Yes, I do. At that time, there were no indictments against these
2 persons, not by this Tribunal. There were indictments against Karadzic,
3 Mladic, just the top people. So, believe me, I could not write and use
4 the word who committed crimes. To me, this was -- I said I felt
5 difficult. I couldn't write that word down. I just couldn't. And
6 that's what I said to the minister, that that's how I would note it but
7 that that relates to --
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear to what that
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat to what that related.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were supposed to write that this
14 related to the persons who participated in the execution of the prisoners
15 of war of Srebrenica. And I put down this other formulation, that these
16 were these persons, that that there was mention of the crimes and the
17 Tribunal was dealing with that. So that was where the connection was
18 made by me.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to understand. I'll re-read your answer,
20 so as not to miss anything.
21 Perhaps we could have the document. Could the parties assist me
22 in which P number it was?
23 P1586, if I'm ...
24 I read the text:
25 "... group of members in the 10th Sabotage Detachment who are
1 foreign citizens or are on a list of individuals who have been indicted
2 by The Hague Tribunal."
3 Apparently that defines some of those for which you were seeking
4 fake IDs to be issued.
5 You say --
6 A. Yes --
7 JUDGE ORIE: "We were supposed to write that this related to the
8 persons who persons indicted for the crimes at Srebrenica."
9 Why were you supposed to write that? I just don't fully
10 understand your answer. You said:
11 "... and I put down this other formulation that these were these
12 persons but that there was mention of the crimes and the Tribunal was
13 dealing with it."
14 Do you mean that apart for asking for fake IDs to be issued, that
15 also the reason you gave was not a real reason? So a fake reason for
16 fake IDs; is that how I have to understand it?
17 A. No. No. I said what the real reason was, that these persons may
18 be transferred to another area, if we received certain information that
19 they were threatened.
20 Now the reason why I didn't put down that these were persons who
21 had committed war crimes is that I just could not bring myself to use
22 that word. I was horrified by it. I couldn't do it, so this is how I
23 formulated it. I called the minister then on the phone after this and
24 told him what it was about and he understood me. Because at that time
25 there were no indictments against any of these persons issued by the
1 Tribunal. These were the persons that we learned the Muslim intelligence
2 service had an interest in, although there were persons there who had not
3 participated at all. They weren't in the group that had committed the
4 crime. But the other side was interested in them, so we feared that they
5 might liquidate them. So that was why.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do --
7 A. And, as for the ministry, there was --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Do I find that anywhere reflected in the text of
9 this document?
10 Please have a look at it and tell me where I could find a
11 reference to protecting them against the Muslim intelligence or against
12 persons who would take revenge or want to liquidate them.
13 Where do I find that in this text?
14 A. No, you cannot find it in the text. Because this text was sent
15 from the public security centre in Bijeljina, all the way to the
16 ministry. It went through the regular channels and that's how it was
17 delivered, but the minister was certainly informed that that was the
18 person -- the purpose and that was the meaning of that.
19 Now, because it had to go up so many levels, we felt that it was
20 not a good idea to give a detailed description.
21 JUDGE ORIE: If people would think that this would -- could also
22 be used as protecting those persons from any further investigations by
23 the -- The Hague Tribunal, as is referred to in this document, what would
24 be your comment on such an interpretation, if someone would have that
25 interpretation of this document? Is there any fact, to your knowledge,
1 which could contradict that revealing the identity, changing the
2 identity, issuing fake IDs, could serve that purpose as well?
3 A. No. Then it wouldn't have been done in this manner, for sure.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I have no further questions for you.
5 But Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Salapura, on page 50, lines 10 and 11, it is
7 noted that you said:
8 "I called the minister then on the phone after this and told him
9 what it was about and he understood me."
10 When did you call the minister of the interior?
11 A. When we drafted this document.
12 I called him on the phone to discuss this, to tell them that we
13 would send a document, that they should know which persons were involved,
14 if anybody was looking for them, that they should know what it was about
15 and whose names were changed. And what that person's name used to be
16 that it was, let's say, Petar Salapura, and now his new name would be
17 Petar Markovic, that this was how it was. And we attached a list to
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was that the usual way of communication from a
20 high-ranking officer of the army to a minister of another ministry in
22 A. Well, yes, it was. Why not? It would all depend on the problem
23 or the case, as it may be. We had other communications. They were
24 infrequent, but ...
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did that phone call take place on the same day as
1 this document was issued, 16th January of 1996?
2 A. No. The conversation actually preceded the sending of this
3 document, the issuance of the document.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: On the same day or how many days before?
5 A. Well, I can't really tell you exactly as I sit here after all
6 this time. A day or two, I can't really be precise.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock. We are
9 already beyond the time when we would take a break. How much time would
10 you need for further examination?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honours, about ten
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that we take the break first and that
14 you take your time after the break.
15 The witness may follow the usher. We'll have a brief follow-up
16 after the break, Mr. Salapura, and then we are done for this courtroom.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can just confirm that the Chamber
25 has received an e-mail from VWU regarding the next witness, something
1 that has arisen. And, if not, I can tell the Chamber what I know about
2 the --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check for a second.
4 MR. GROOME: Perhaps it's just easier if I just inform the
5 Chamber. The next witness has informed VWU that because of urgent
6 business that he has to engage in on Monday, that he's unable to stay
7 past today. So the Prosecution would -- I believe it will be a rather
8 short witness -- for the Chamber to consider sitting a few extra minutes
9 today, if necessary, to complete his evidence today so he can return
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: It will not fit. One hour and three hours is --
14 apart from it's not a matter of minutes, it's a matter of hours.
15 MR. GROOME: I was informed by the Mr. Mladic Defence yesterday
16 that they thought they might take less time with this witness than was
17 originally estimated. And the Prosecution has shortened its examination.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's discuss the matter, but I -- from what I see
19 now, there's hardly any chance -- apart from that Judges may not be
20 available for the whole of the afternoon. For a substantive amount of
21 time this afternoon, I have problems and I know from some of my
22 colleagues as well that they would have problems.
23 MR. GROOME: I accept that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Can we have P1361 in e-court.
3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel --
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me note that the document is
6 under seal, Your Honours. So let's proceed in accordance with that.
7 Q. This is a document you've already seen. I'll just read out one
8 portion of it. Can we turn to the next page in B/C/S at one point.
9 Let's read out the last passage. Among other things, the text
11 "Somebody marked it as Y says:
12 "There, they're on their way. The buses are gathering. They
13 have your order?"
14 X says: "Well, I know. He spoke with Kovacevic or Kovac
15 Salapura did and got a verbal consent that a shift would be coming in the
16 course of the day."
17 X says: "But, the people are already leaving here."
18 X is answering: "Well, let them go, fuck them. What can I do?"
19 Y says: "Well, I don't know. It's not going to be covered."
20 X says: "Well, let it be that way, bro. What's it to you? You
21 informed me, I informed the commander, the commander ordered."
22 JUDGE ORIE: We are on page 2 in the English already for a while.
23 Yes, please proceed.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, I did ask.
25 I'll continue.
1 Q. X says: "So what, mate, it's none of your business. You
2 informed me, I informed the commander, the commander ordered, and that's
3 it. Isn't that right?"
4 Colonel, in view of your professional knowledge, without going
5 into whether the conversation really unfolded this way or not, but in
6 military terms, if a MUP unit is resubordinated to the army, is it
7 possible for such a situation to arise that a MUP unit would be leaving
8 an area, leaving an assignment, and create, thus, a gap, an area, that is
9 not covered.
10 The conversation going on to say that it was necessary to have
11 that area covered and that a request should be submitted to that effect.
12 In professional terms, in military terms, would you, based on
13 your experience, call this a resubordination of the MUP or not?
14 A. Well, you see, mention is made of my name here, and I have never
15 seen this. I never had anything to do with these units. Two or three
16 people from the security service are mentioned here. There's a great
17 deal that's illogical in this.
18 Secondly, a MUP unit may be resubordinated for a definite period
19 of time and it will be under the command of the forces to which it was
20 resubordinated. If it's a detachment, it can be resubordinated to a
21 brigade. And that brigade will be in command of it and will be issuing
22 assignments to it within its AOR. But as I was able to see in other
23 documents that I was shown, the MUP was performing certain assignments on
24 its own, independently.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have a look at P1582.
3 Q. It's a document you were able to see when my learned friend,
4 Mr. Vanderpuye, was examining you.
5 Can I direct your attention to item 1 which says:
6 "Urgently form a combat group the size of a battalion in the
7 Kravica-Konjevic Polje sector, using the 5th Doboj Special Police
8 Detachment. Two companies from the seminar on Jahorina and two PJP
9 companies in -- with a task to search the terrain in the course of
11 Now this is what I want to ask you, Colonel, if you know: Do you
12 have any knowledge or any information to the effect that a commanding
13 officer of a special police detachment in Doboj several days before this
14 document was drafted had been taken prisoner by the column of the
15 28th Division of the BH army?
16 A. No, I have no knowledge of that.
17 Q. Do you know that a unit of the -- or rather, the 5th Special
18 Detachment of Doboj was in this area before the 17th of July?
19 A. No, I don't know that.
20 Q. But you do know that two companies of the seminar from Jahorina,
21 that's to say the training centre from Jahorina, headed by Dusko Jevtic
22 was present in the area before the 17th of July, 1995?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And I'll finish with this question. Are you aware if two PJP
25 companies of the security centre in Zvornik had been in the area before
1 this order was issued?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
4 I will now ask you to explain the following. During the direct
5 examination when you mentioned the town where you were at a time when you
6 were informed of the involvement of members of the 10th Sabotage
7 Detachment in the events around Branjevo, which town did you mean
9 A. Bijeljina.
10 Q. When you said the town knew, which town did you mean?
11 A. I think that I said that there were citizens who knew.
12 Q. Which town and the citizens of which town did you mean when you
13 said that?
14 A. I meant Bijeljina.
15 Q. What is the distance between Bijeljina and Crna Rijeka, Colonel?
16 A. I don't know exactly. Quite a lot of kilometres.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Typically a matter to agree upon. Take a map, find
18 the distance between the two. What you're suggesting, I take it,
19 Mr. Stojanovic is that this Chamber has to accept that the distance was
20 such that what was known in Bijeljina could not be known in Crna Rijeka.
21 That is agreement [sic]. If you want to use the distance, agree upon the
22 distance with the Prosecution.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We will do so, Your Honour. We
25 still have the obligation to establish the distance between Kasaba and
1 Milici, so we'll deal with it. But I want to finish off with another
3 Q. Colonel, in the course of your work, did you at any point in time
4 see a document from which it would follow that this document informed
5 General Mladic of crimes committed in any area around Srebrenica?
6 A. No, not a single document, no written text, nothing.
7 Q. Colonel, thank you. I have no further questions for you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. Perhaps a -- I may have
9 not pronounced very clearly, but page 57, line 18, I intended to say that
10 it was argument not agreement.
11 Mr. Salapura, this concludes your testimony in this Court. I'd
12 like to thank you very much for having answered the many, many questions
13 that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I usually -- I
14 don't know exactly when you will return home, but I wish you a safe
15 return home once you leave The Hague.
16 You may follow the usher.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I just wanted to inform the Chamber that we do
22 have another replacement translation. If the witness is coming in, I
23 thought we could just put that on the record very briefly.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please put it on the record.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. We will replace the
1 English translation of P1581 with a revised English translation, and I
2 can provide the document ID, which is 0321-6007-ET.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you refresh my recollection as to
4 what document, if public, we're talking about?
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's a public document. It referred to the --
6 it's -- was used during the course of the testimony with
7 General Keserovic. Transcript reference is page 12979 through 12980 and
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's a --
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: 19 June intercept I believe it was.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's a CLSS translation?
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, this is -- not -- something is
14 wrong with the microphone.
15 It's under seal. It's not a public document.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, yes, Mr. President -- yes,
17 Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's good that we did not go into the content
19 of it.
20 Leave is granted to replace the old English translation by the
21 new one. The Defence has an opportunity to revisit the matter, if they
22 have any concerns about the new translation.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps this is an opportunity
24 to inform you that we checked the translation of the document of the 13th
25 of July in the meantime and that we have no objection to this text being
1 inserted instead of the initial translation.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That means that the status of an admitted exhibit
3 remains as it is.
4 Then for the next witness, we would have limited time. How much
5 time would the Prosecution need?
6 MR. GROOME: 15 minutes, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: 15 minutes.
8 How much time would the Defence need?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we announced three
10 hours. But then we informed the Prosecution that we would cut it down to
11 an hour and a half, in view of everything.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which would still bring us beyond quarter past
13 2.00. And, unfortunately, I verified with my colleagues, that not even
14 under Rule 15 bis we would have a Bench which could continue to hear the
15 evidence of this witness today.
16 Let me just check one thing.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: I conferred with my colleagues. What will be
19 possible is to resume later this afternoon after we have the usual break.
20 Now, I do not know to what extent that would cause great difficulties as
21 far as the accused and transportation of the accused is concerned, but
22 the Chamber cannot continue after quarter past 2.00 today but is willing
23 to resume at 5.30 and would be able to continue until 7.00, but that's
24 the Chamber. Now there are more persons needed for -- I don't know to
25 what extent that would cause any difficulties for the Defence.
1 MR. LUKIC: I really think that our client cannot stand to be
2 here the whole day.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's the second.
4 First of all, we need Defence counsel - that's the first
5 question - would you be available?
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have
8 preparations for a very important witness who is coming, and we are -- we
9 were planning a visit between 3.30 and 5.00 with the General in the
10 Detention Unit.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's, of course, would be the next problem,
12 to -- where Mr. Mladic would stay all this time.
13 But Mr. Mladic wants to consult with you. You have an
14 opportunity to briefly consult with him at this moment.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 [Defence counsel confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: As everyone will understand, we have to go step by
18 step and see whether the Chamber, Defence, support staff, the accused,
19 well, the whole ...
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we discussed this
21 with General Mladic, and he told us that he would be prepared, if he can
22 be given some time to rest in the meantime, he would be prepared to come
23 back for this evening hearing in view of the status of the witness as
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which means that it makes sense to further
1 explore the possibilities of having a full support team here, because
2 without the support team, we couldn't proceed.
3 Madam Registrar, are you in a position to try to further explore
4 that so that we can see -- and could you also explore the possibilities
5 of Mr. Mladic being taken to the UNDU and quarter past 2.00 and then to
6 return not later than 5.30. And then we'll hear from you as soon as
8 Now, understand those circumstances, I think it makes sense to
9 start with the testimony of the next witness. And the next witness will
10 be taken by --
11 MS. MacGREGOR: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Ms. MacGregor,
12 Glenna MacGregor.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you will examine the witness. Protective
14 measures are face distortion and pseudonym, if I remember well?
15 MS. MacGREGOR: That's correct, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then we need to move into -- Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, sorry. I think there is a problem with the
18 transcript. My colleague Stojanovic told that Mr. Mladic agreed to come
19 back after 19, after 7.00 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think that -- at least what we had on our mind
21 was to sit from 5.30 to 7.00.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. But I think that he has to rest after our
23 visit. He wouldn't be --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you want to consult again. If you consult
25 again, then you have you an opportunity to do so now rather than before
1 resuming with this witness.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we discussed this
4 with General Mladic again and he told us that he would try and accept the
5 fact that he has to be here -- back here at 5.30.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we will continue to explore the
7 possibilities of transportation, support staff, et cetera, et cetera.
8 Under those circumstances, we now -- I suggest that we start with
9 the examination of the witness, then take a break, and then start with
10 the -- after the break, to start with the cross-examination of the
11 witness. We see where it ends, and then we'll also know by then whether
12 we will be able to continue later this afternoon.
13 If that is agreeable to all parties, we move into closed session
14 in order to allow the witness to be escorted into the courtroom and then
15 return into open session.
16 [Closed session]
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, if you ...
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 Witness, can you hear me in a language you understand?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I invite you, if it's not a problem for you,
5 to stand for a second?
6 The Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text
7 is now given to you. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
8 Mr. Usher.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: RM256
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
14 Witness RM256, when you give your testimony, we'll not use your
15 own name, and no one outside this courtroom will see your face. You'll
16 first be examined by Ms. MacGregor. You'll find Ms. MacGregor to your
17 right, standing.
18 Ms. MacGregor, please proceed.
19 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Examination by Ms. MacGregor:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
22 The Chamber has been informed that you're needed back home --
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. -- and we are doing our best to have you finish today. And you
25 can help us by listening carefully to the questions and just answering
1 what is asked.
2 MS. MacGREGOR: May I please have 65 ter 28962, which should not
3 be broadcast.
4 Q. Witness, while this document is loading, can you let me know when
5 it is on your screen. Are you able to see the document in front of you?
6 A. I can.
7 Q. And can you -- can you confirm that that is your name and date of
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honour, may this document please be
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 MS. MacGREGOR: Under seal.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 28962 will be Exhibit P1591.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
16 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Can you please broadcast 65 ter 28960, and again, this document
18 should not be publicly broadcasted.
19 Q. Witness, while the next document is loading, did you provide a
20 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1996 about what happened to
21 you during the war?
22 A. I did.
23 Q. While preparing for your testimony, was your statement read back
24 to you in Bosnian?
25 A. It was.
1 Q. Now if can you please look at the document on the screen in front
2 of you, the English version, which should be on your right, on the lower
3 right-hand corner, do you see your signature there?
4 A. I do.
5 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the court officer please show 65 ter 28961,
6 specifically page 4 in e-court of the document. And also this should not
7 be broadcast.
8 Q. Witness, did you also provide a statement to the Bosnian War
9 Crime Commission in Zivinice in September 1995?
10 A. I did. It's just that I don't remember which date it was.
11 Q. Did you have a chance to review part of that statement while
12 preparing for your testimony, specifically a list of names of the victims
13 you remembered from the massacre at the Kravica warehouse?
14 A. Those that I enumerated, the names of those who were at Kravica,
15 they're all gone today. I will always know these names. I did mention
16 them, and I stand by them, and today they are gone.
17 Q. Looking at the screen in front of you, is the list on the screen
18 the list that you're referring to?
19 A. I don't see this well. I can't read it, but I can give you the
20 names from my memory without reading them.
21 Q. Actually, if I can just ask for the assistants to make the list
22 slightly large.
23 Witness, we have the ability to make it easier for you to see the
24 list, and I'm asking only if you recognise the list. You don't need to
25 read the whole list. The question is: Is this the list that you looked
1 at while preparing your -- for your testimony?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, do both of the documents that we've just looked at reflect
4 the answers that you gave at the time when you were interviewed?
5 A. I enumerated the names of those whom I saw at Kravica. They are
6 all gone today. Not a single one of those that I enumerated are with us
8 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Court Officer remove the document from
9 the screen.
10 Q. Witness, when you gave both a statement to the Office of the
11 Prosecutor and to the War Crimes Commission, were you telling the truth
12 when you gave your statements?
13 A. What I saw, I said, and I stand by it.
14 Q. And if you were asked the exact same questions today, would you
15 give the same answers, in substance?
16 A. I think what I said the first time I would always repeat. Those
17 people who were in the meadow and who came to the warehouse, none of whom
18 are with us today.
19 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honour, if may now read a short summary of
20 this witness's evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to tender the statement?
22 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes. Sorry.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you. In my haste, I forgot that --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections --
1 MS. MacGREGOR: -- important piece.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I think we have looked at two
3 documents, the one was the list, the second one was the statement of the
5 The first one.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 28960 which is the statement,
7 receives number P1592.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, should be under seal.
9 THE REGISTRAR: And 65 ter 28961, which is the list, receives
10 Exhibit Number P1593, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P1592 and P1593 are admitted into evidence, both
12 under seal.
13 Please proceed.
14 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 The witness survived a mass execution of Muslim men and boys at
16 the Kravica warehouse on 13 July 1995. On 11 July, the witness had to
17 leave his home after Srebrenica fell to Serb forces. His wife and
18 daughters to fled to Potocari and the witness joined as column of men
19 moving through the woods toward free territory. On the morning of
20 13 July, he was forced to surrender in the hills above the
21 Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not escape. They left
23 there, because they felt they would be safe there. It was a protected
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, perhaps for your understanding,
1 Ms. MacGregor is only reading a summary, not giving all the details, and
2 that's not the evidence. The evidence is in the statement as it was
3 received by the Chamber, which contains all the details of your
4 statement. This is just to inform the public.
5 Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
6 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 The witness was taken prisoner at a meadow. While at the meadow,
8 another prisoner was shot and killed. His body was left on the meadow.
9 General Mladic arrived and addressed the prisoners, promising them that
10 they would not be harmed. Shortly thereafter, the prisoners were told to
11 line up in a column, four abreast, and they marched towards Kravica.
12 The witness arrived at the Kravica warehouse and entered through
13 the second door. When the last prisoner entered, the room was so crowded
14 that the last prisoner had no place to sit. The soldier started to fire
15 in the warehouse. Immediately after, shooting and firing from many types
16 of weapons from both sides of the warehouse through the windows started.
17 The shooting calmed down as it got dark. The witness took cover among
18 the dead --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the last soldier -- when the
20 last prisoner entered the warehouse, there was no place for him to sit
21 down, and that's when the fire was opened, in the warehouse.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 The witness took cover among the dead and lay still in the
25 warehouse overnight covered in their blood. The witness remained that
1 way for the whole following day. At some point on the 14th of July, the
2 witness could hear machinery noises outside the building and a machine
3 started to break the wall of the warehouse. When it became night, the
4 witness heard soldiers commanded to park the machine, cover the bodies
5 with hay and wash the road. Sometime after midnight the witness escaped
6 from the warehouse.
7 This concludes my summary, if I may now proceed with my
8 examination of the witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You may, Ms. MacGregor.
10 MS. MacGREGOR:
11 Q. Witness, as the Chamber explained to you, your written statement
12 is already evidence in this case. I will now ask you very brief
13 questions to clarify a few matters. So if you can just listen to the
14 questions I ask, they're focussed on just a few topics.
15 Are you able to estimate what time of day, approximately, you
16 arrived at the Kravica warehouse?
17 A. I didn't have a watch, but judging by the position of the sun, it
18 could have been around 4.00 or 5.00. That's my estimate. I didn't have
19 a watch.
20 Q. Approximately how long after you were arrived at the warehouse
21 did that last prisoner enter the room that you were in?
22 A. Well, not much time had passed. People were entering, and when
23 the last one entered, there was no place for him to sit. And one soldier
24 told him, Sit down, and he swore at him. He turned around himself and he
25 said, Well, you see, I can't sit. There's nowhere to sit. And then he
1 hit him and started shooting, and I just fell on the ground. The
2 shooting went on until night-fall. I remained there all that time, and
3 during the night, I could hear them talking and laughing outside the
4 warehouse. And then on the next morning, I believe it was Friday, when
5 it got light, on that day, in the evening, I -- we pulled out. There was
6 a man from Cerska and from Lolici, another man. I asked him -- I asked
7 to join them because one of them was from the area, and I didn't know
8 that area.
9 Q. And I understand --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, I do understand that you want to
11 tell us the story. We have read your story. The question was: How long
12 after you arrived at the warehouse did the last prisoner enter the room?
13 You said, Well, not much time had passed. Are you thinking about
14 half an hour? An hour? Two hours --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not -- not that long. I can't
16 really tell you in that situation as it was. I can't tell you how much
17 time, I didn't have a watch, whether it was half an hour later or an
18 hour, but not much longer.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Please proceed.
21 MS. MacGREGOR:
22 Q. Now, you've stated here and also in your statement, paragraph 21,
23 that the firing from outside the warehouse happened suddenly after the
24 incident when the last prisoner came in.
25 How long between the last prisoner coming in and the firing from
1 outside the warehouse passed, approximately?
2 A. When the last prisoner came in, he was mowed down. And then
3 there was shooting everywhere a hand-held grenade, bursts of fire mortar
5 MS. MacGREGOR: For the next questions, if we can move into
6 private session, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest to the Defence that we'll first take the
1 break and then start cross-examination. You would have approximately
2 40 minutes, Mr. Stojanovic. I would urge that questions are put to the
3 witness to which he can answer and always to start with identifying areas
4 where the witness has any knowledge and not to pursue matters where he
5 has no knowledge for too long.
6 Witness, we -- your testimony started considerably later than we
7 expected. We have been informed that you'd rather not stay over the
8 weekend and that we'd conclude your testimony today. We are doing our
9 utmost best to achieve that, but that will most likely require that, once
10 cross-examination has started after the break, that we would then have a
11 far longer break of several hours and that we would then resume at 5.30
12 so as to be able to conclude at 7.00.
13 Now, we're still exploring whether it's possible and just --
14 Yes, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I am in a rush. I -- I need
16 to go away. It's been enough. I've been here two days.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's the reason we're trying to do our
18 utmost best so that you can travel back home tomorrow, as scheduled.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Just to inform the parties that all services we need
21 are available. The only matter which is still not yet resolved is
22 transportation to the UNDU and back. So that would be the only obstacle
23 for not continuing.
24 And, of course, Mr. Stojanovic, if you would be able to even
25 further shorten your cross-examination and focus on matters the witness
1 can tell us anything about, we might even avoid to have to sit at 5.30
2 and on from that moment.
3 We take a break. But the witness -- we first go into closed
4 session so that the witness can leave the courtroom.
5 And we'll resume in closed session so as to avoid further time
6 being lost after the break.
7 [Closed session]
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber was informed that at a
6 certain moment during the break, Mr. Mladic was asked whether he would
7 still want to visit the toilet, that he then said no, and that it's only
8 at the very last moment that he expressed his wish to do so.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, for the record, we are in open
11 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Before you start your cross-examination, Mr. Stojanovic, somewhat
13 unusual, I have three short questions for the witness.
14 [The accused entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask you, when you joined the column
16 of people who went through the woods, did you carry any arm?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had a hunting rifle.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
19 My next question is: Were you a member of the 28th Division of
20 the BiH Army?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Third question: When the shooting started in the
23 Kravica warehouse, did you notice anything unusual, or did you see or
24 observe anything unusual, such as one of the prisoners trying to attack
25 any of the guards?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not observe anything. I
2 didn't see anyone trying to attack anyone, either outside the warehouse
3 or in. Whether something happened before I arrived there, I don't know.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
5 Mr. Stojanovic, may I give you as guidance that you should focus
6 on what is the core of the testimony of this witness.
7 You may proceed.
8 Witness, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
9 Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic, and you'll find him to your
11 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I have just a few questions for you, and we
14 will try to finish within the next half-hour.
15 Could you please tell us, to the best of your estimate, do you
16 know who it was who told you that you should head towards Susnjari and
17 Jaglici on that day, when you set off in that direction?
18 A. On the 11th of July, on Tuesday, I was gathering hay, and a
19 courier came to the village and said that we were to go to, that
20 Srebrenica, the protected enclave, had fallen. Old men, women, and
21 children should heads towards Potocari; whereas, the able-bodied men
22 should go through the woods and try a breakthrough to the free territory.
23 Q. Thank you. Do you know whose courier this was?
24 A. He was the courier of the commander Zulfo Tursunovic.
25 Q. At that point, did you know where the Army of Republika Srpska
1 was in relation to your village?
2 A. Well, they were around us. We were surrounded. We headed
3 towards Susnjari. We arrived at Ravne Njive, and from there, the
4 civilians, meaning women, old men, and children, headed towards Potocari;
5 whereas, we headed for Jaglici.
6 Q. Thank you. When did you arrive in Jaglici?
7 A. I arrived Jaglici as evening was falling.
8 Q. What was the next order that was issued?
9 A. We remained there the whole night. And I set off from Jaglici.
10 I know that at least. Because I asked someone, Nusret Turkovic, a man
11 called Nusret Turkovic, from the neighbouring village, I asked him what
12 time it is -- is it, and he said 20 to 1.00. And that's when we set off.
13 And then I went to Buljim. That was the first and last time that I was
15 Q. Excuse me, I have interrupt you. What was the order? What did
16 it say? Which way were you to go and in what direction from Jaglici?
17 A. Well, we were to go from Jaglici towards Tuzla and then try to
18 break through. There was -- nothing was sure so they said, Just go at
19 your own risk, and whatever happens. And then that, too, when we arrived
20 at Buljim.
21 Q. Just a moment. Now, do you know that there was -- whether there
22 was a group that was supposed to go ahead of you to clear the minefields?
23 A. There were some men ahead of us. They were supposed to clean the
24 minefields, but I don't know how many there were in front, or how many
25 behind. But as we were approaching Buljim, there was a macadam road, and
1 as we got off the road there was --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the witness.
3 Could he please repeat.
4 JUDGE ORIE: One second. First of all, take a pause,
5 Mr. Stojanovic.
6 The interpreters could not catch what you said after you said you
7 were approaching Buljim. There was a macadam road. And as you got off
8 the road, there was ...
9 And could you tell us what you then told us that there was.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said that the column was cut
11 off, that they had lost track of the column. They didn't know where the
12 front end of the column was. But what it was that was set up there, I
13 don't know.
14 So we were standing on the side of the road. There were a lot of
15 people. And a man came out from the wood and asked, What are you waiting
16 for? And then there was someone down near the stream who said, We had
17 lost track of the column. And then he started swearing at us and said,
18 Well, I'll show you the end of the column. And so I asked who was it,
19 and they said it was Golic.
20 Now this man, Golic, I had never seen before or after --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Previous translation continues] ... witness, could
22 you please focus your answers specifically on the question because much
23 you what you have told us in the last answer we have read already in your
25 So carefully listen to Mr. Stojanovic what, in addition to what
1 is in the statement, he still would like to know.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness.
5 Now please tell us, what did they tell you? Who was this man
6 whose last name was Golic?
7 A. Well, a man called Ejub Golic. I had never seen him before. He
8 went towards the man who was down there who said that the -- the column
9 was -- that they had lost track of the column.
10 Q. Do you know what was said then?
11 A. What?
12 Q. Well, do you know whether you were told that Ejub Golic was the
13 commander of the one of the units that was part of the column?
14 A. Well, there was a commander. He was a commander of some sort,
15 but I didn't know him, and I had never seen him before.
16 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us to the best of your ability
17 how many men were killed in these two ambushes that you mentioned at
18 Ravni Buljim and Kamenica up until the moment when you surrendered and
19 were taken prisoner?
20 A. Well, we just fled every which way in the stream there, and
21 that's when somebody said, Well, what are you waiting for? And then
22 there was this swearing, and then the shooting began, and everyone tried
23 to escape. There were people lying down and lying in the -- in the
24 stream, and everyone was trying to flee. No one could help anyone. We
25 headed downstream and --
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... yes.
2 Mr. Stojanovic asked you whether you know how many men were killed at
3 that moment. In these two ambushes.
4 Mr. Stojanovic --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Killed or wounded?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Tell us first how many were killed, to your
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I did not count. Who could
9 count? Who could keep count in that situation?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us a --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everyone was trying to save
13 JUDGE ORIE: Are you able to give us --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if it would occur to
15 you to try and count how many wounded men there were there, had you been
16 in my shoes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I fully understand. But if you are able to give us
18 an estimate of how many were killed, please do so. If you're unable to
19 tell us, tell me as well.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in that situation, who could
21 count and know how many wounded or dead there are. That's what I'd like
22 to know. How can you put these questions to me like that? You know, I
23 was trying to save my head, my skin. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's understood that you are unable to give an
25 estimate. And no one blames you for that. Don't worry about that.
1 Mr. Stojanovic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no one can blame me for that.
3 Who would think of trying to count how many dead or wounded there were?
4 How can you put a question like that to me?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that is all understood. If you limit to
6 focussed answers to the questions, then there's a better chance that
7 we'll finish as soon as possible.
8 Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for your
11 Q. Sir, could you tell us in your estimate what time of day was it
12 when General Mladic appeared in that meadow?
13 A. I don't know how -- what time it was. The sun was still high in
14 the sky. He came. We were sitting on the ground in a meadow. I didn't
15 even know what it was called at the time. General Mladic arrived there.
16 And he addressed us. He asked us, Do you know who I am? Some people
17 said they knew. Some people said they didn't. I was just keeping quiet.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness, again
19 that is what we have read in your statement.
20 Mr. Stojanovic specifically would like to know on whether you can
21 give an estimate on what time it was, even by the sun being high. Does
22 that mean 2.00 for you, or 1.00, or 3.00? Approximately.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot really tell. When he
24 arrived, he addressed us. And he said that he was General Mladic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was his first word --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said, Naser had left you, he had
4 fled to Tuzla. And you --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Previous translation continues] ... witness,
6 again --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our families had been evacuated.
8 They were there, accommodated somewhere. Maybe in a day or two.
9 Well, he said, You will be exchanged. Your families would be
10 found. No one would beat you. We would give you food --
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, I have
12 to stop you. That part of your statement, we have read all of that, and
13 we now know that, upon the question put to you by Mr. Stojanovic about
14 the time, that what you can tell us that the sun was still high.
15 Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak aloud. Not in any way.
16 Is there any technical problem which needs further -- to be
17 further resolved?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think we have resolved it,
19 Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No -- Mr. Mladic, one more word and you will removed
21 from the courtroom. Let that be clear.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe we have resolved this.
23 There was no audio for a while, but I think that's been taken care of.
24 Q. Witness, sir, what it would be correct to say that in your
25 estimate, although I know that you didn't have a watch, that you arrived
1 at the -- that you were brought to the Kravica warehouse around 4.00 to
2 5.00 in the afternoon?
3 A. Well, yes, in my estimate that's what it is, but I don't know the
4 exact time.
5 Q. And would you agree with me that after General Mladic left --
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Stojanovic,
7 first, take a pause.
8 Second, don't repeat questions that have been put to the witness
9 already as to his time of arrival at the Kravica warehouse. Any
10 follow-up question, fine.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is it correct that after the departure of General Mladic from the
14 meadow, some half an hour later, you started being transported to the
15 Kravica warehouse?
16 A. We were seated over there, and he told us, Your families were
17 evacuated. They are put up in Tuzla and Kladanj. Just --
18 Q. Could you pause there.
19 A. Stop, please. The families were evacuated. In a day or two, you
20 will be exchanged. Nobody will be beating you up. Nobody will be
21 provoking you. We will provide you with food. It's -- it's very warm
22 here. We'll transfer you somewhere where it's cooler. We'll tell you --
23 we'll put you up in a warehouse from which you won't be able to escape.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I hope you understand that everything you
25 are you telling us now, we have read that. You have testified to that
1 many times. And what we are seeking at this moment, to put a few
2 additional questions to you so as to have the complete story. We're not
3 seeking you to repeat what we found already in your statement. And we
4 all do it. In order to avoid that you have to stay any longer here, I
5 hope you understand that these are good efforts to assist you as well.
6 Therefore, Mr. Stojanovic will put short questions to you. Think
7 about those questions, and try to focus your answers on those questions.
8 Mr. Stojanovic, next question, please.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will try, Your Honour, to go
10 back to that.
11 Q. Can you assess how much time after the departure of
12 General Mladic passed before you were being transported or, rather,
13 before you were asked to go down to the Kravica warehouse?
14 A. I don't know how long it was. Not long.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. The column was formed --
17 Q. Thank you.
18 Now the next question. At the point when you reached the Kravica
19 warehouse, did you see whether, in the left part of it, there was an open
20 area, a canopy, whether there were any prisoners there already?
21 A. As we came to the warehouse, I was some way -- halfway within the
22 column. There was a bus parked there. I came to the second entrance
23 door, and the area up to that second door, and I was the first one to ask
24 to -- to be asked to go through, was already full. Even if you threw a
25 match among them, it wouldn't fall to the floor. So I got in through the
1 second entrance door, into the warehouse, and then a soldier swore at me,
2 telling me to sit down, and I said that I had a painful back.
3 Q. Witness, pause, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... the question was
5 about whether there were other prisoners already there. You have
6 answered that question, that when entering the second door, that it was
7 already full.
8 And Mr. Stojanovic will now put his next question to you.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Tell me, apart from the room where you were in, did you see if
11 there were any other rooms where prisoners were put up in that same
13 A. I was only able to observe the room where I was, that it was full
14 of people. As for the others, I never went in.
15 Q. Thank you. This is my next question for you: Do you remember
16 if, around the Kravica warehouse facility, there was a wire fence that
17 separated the compound from the road?
18 A. I didn't see the fence. I went by a bus that was parked between
19 the road and the warehouse, and then went on toward the warehouse.
20 In that situation, I didn't look around much. I was thinking
21 about my fate.
22 Q. This is my next question: At the point when you decided to get
23 out of the building during the night, did you pass through some sort of
24 gate before you went out onto the asphalt?
25 A. I went out through the same door that I initially got in through.
1 A loader was parked there and I got out onto the asphalt road
2 Ramiz Muskic who was with me, and then on the road there was a soldier
3 who yelled, "Stop" --
4 Q. Can I stop you there for a second. That soldier who yelled,
5 "Stop," was he on the opposite side of the right?
6 A. He was on the right-hand side of the road as I was coming onto
7 the road from the left side, from the warehouse.
8 Q. As you -- you did describe this event in your statement. Did you
9 run away from the warehouse to the left or to the right in respect of the
10 door that you came out through?
11 A. As I went out, I ran in the direction of the river. When he
12 yelled, "Stop," for the third time, I ran in the direction of the river,
13 leaving the warehouse on my left side. And as I reached the river, I
14 didn't hear a -- any -- any shots fired. Ramiz Muskic was with me. We
15 crossed the river and got into a cornfield.
16 Q. Tell us, before that night fell, the one where you decided to
17 flee, you heard a truck or trucks that were in front of the warehouse.
18 This is my question: Were you able to see these trucks?
19 A. I didn't move. I didn't open an eye. They were shouting, "If
20 there's anyone alive, come out, join our army." Nobody moved. Nobody
21 went out -- well, I don't know if anybody did or how many did. I heard
22 the noise of a truck being turned on --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the answer therefore is that you did not
24 see them - quite understandably, perhaps - but you didn't see them. That
25 is what Mr. Stojanovic wanted to know.
1 Mr. Stojanovic, next question, please.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Can you remember at the point when you were leaving the
4 warehouse, you were still able to see the bus that you referred to as
5 having been there when you were coming in?
6 A. When I got out, I didn't see any buses. It was night-time and I
7 didn't see much.
8 Q. Thank you. This is my next question: In your best estimate, how
9 much time did you spend in the vicinity of the Kravica warehouse before
10 you went on your way?
11 A. I was together with this Muskic and we were in the area of
12 Pobudje. I didn't know the area. I would have never found a way out had
13 it not been for him because this was an unfamiliar place to me. He led
14 me to this place where we were not able to cross the asphalt road. I met
15 up with some individuals from the municipality of Bratunac and Vlasenica,
16 and they told Zepa had not fallen yet. And he was very much familiar
17 with this terrain around Pobudje.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Mr. Stojanovic would like to know how much
19 time you spent in the vicinity of the Kravica warehouse after you came
20 out -- one second please. Was it half an hour? Was it an hour? Was it
21 three hours before you went on your way?
22 If you know, tell us; if you don't know, no problem.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was present in this Pobudje
24 area for some three or four days. I wasn't able to get out of the area
25 until I met up with these other individuals, and then I parted ways with
1 Ramiz Muskic.
2 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Close to the Kravica warehouse. Well,
3 let's say, within 3- to 500 metres. How long did you stay there, if you
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the warehouse or behind the
7 JUDGE ORIE: No -- yes, after you had left the warehouse itself,
8 how long were you --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I did say, and I think it's
10 quite clear to you. I went out of the warehouse, crossed a river. It
11 was night-time. We were waiting for the dawn. We weren't able to cross
12 the asphalt road because there was soldiers calling to us, "Come down,
13 surrender, Halil, Zulfo, Bajram, Mustafo, come out. Nobody will harm
15 So we weren't able to cross the asphalt road. We were talking
16 around Pobudje. I wanted to go back to Zepa, but the other person said
17 that he knew the way to Baljkovic. He stayed behind. I decided to go in
18 the direction of Zepa, and 70 days later I went out across Baljkovci.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will finish with
21 this question.
22 Can perhaps this last question be put in private session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 13201 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, any further questions for the
8 MS. MacGREGOR: I do have one very brief question, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: One very brief question once we are back in open
11 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, are we?
13 MS. MacGREGOR: Oh.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, we are in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. I only am confident that we're
16 in open session if it's confirmed by Madam Registrar.
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Re-examination by Ms. MacGregor:
20 Q. Mr. Witness, I have one last question. You told the Judge that
21 you had a hunting rifle when you set out with the column of men in the
22 woods. Did you have that hunting rifle with you for the whole time from
23 when you set out to when you were captured?
24 A. When we set off from Jaglici, I handed it over to my
25 brother-in-law or son-in-law --
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't sure.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- And I was carrying my rucksack.
3 MS. MacGREGOR:
4 Q. To clarify the interpretation, are you referring to the husband
5 of your daughter?
6 A. My sister's husband.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. My sister's husband.
9 MS. MacGREGOR: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Mr. Stojanovic, may I take it that this has not triggered any
12 questions? If you want to consult with Mr. Mladic, but only at
13 whispering volume, nothing else.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A moment, please.
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
18 Witness, this concludes your testimony in this Court. The
19 Chamber is aware that you very much like to tell the whole story again.
20 The Chamber is interested in the whole of the story, and we have read all
21 of it in your statement. So if we tried to limit ourselves to additional
22 information, do not misunderstand this as that we are not interested in
23 your story, because we read it and we are interested in it.
24 At the same time, we tried to achieve that you would not have to
25 stay any longer than needed. And fortunately, this now concludes your
1 testimony, and you will be able to travel back home tomorrow morning or
2 afternoon, at least tomorrow.
3 Witness, I would like to thank you very much for coming - not for
4 the first time - to The Hague and for having given your testimony, and I
5 wish you a safe return home again.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You may -- once the curtains are down because we
8 move into closed session -- but before we do so, I announce that in
9 closed session we will adjourn, and we will ... we will resume at the
10 24th of June, Monday morning, 9.30, in this same courtroom, I.
11 We turn into closed session, and we adjourn.
12 [Closed session]
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 24th of June, 2013,
6 at 9.30 a.m.