Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13978

 1                           Monday, 8 July 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             The Chamber was not informed of any preliminaries.  Yes,

11     apparently there are preliminaries.  Mr. Groome?

12             MR. GROOME:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Two brief procedural or

13     administrative matters, the first with respect to P1684, which is marked

14     for identification, a translation, an English translation has now been

15     uploaded into e-court.  The Prosecution requests that it be attached to

16     the B/C/S original and admitted into evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar is instructed to attach the English

18     translation to P1684 and P1684 is admitted into evidence.

19             Mr. Lukic, if there are any problems with the translation, you

20     may revisit that within the next 48 hours.

21             Next, Mr. Groome?

22             MR. GROOME:  The second issue, Your Honour, relates to two 92 bis

23     motions, first, the 28th motion filed on the 23rd of May and the

24     29th motion filed on the 14th of June.  Both time periods for response

25     has expired.  The Prosecution maintains its original position that it

Page 13979

 1     does not oppose any reasonable amount of time the Chamber deems necessary

 2     to answer those motions but would ask that they -- a definite date be

 3     fixed for a response.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  We were kindly warned by my learned friend this

 6     morning about this issue so if we can answer tomorrow, because I don't

 7     have it in front of me.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Neither do I.  So you have until tomorrow,

 9     Mr. Lukic, to come up with a proposal for when, and then the Chamber will

10     consider whether it accepts it.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No other matter?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  We

14     are ready to go with General Skrbic, though I would request a caution for

15     him.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And he will give his evidence viva voce?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's the plan.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, I thought that you asked for three

19     hours, which is for a one-hour viva voce testimony rather long.

20             MR. LUKIC:  It is.  We'll finish this witness today for sure.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  For sure, because usually for a viva voce witness,

22     the same amount of time or even a little bit less is appropriate.  So

23     please keep that in the back of your mind.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

Page 13980

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Skrbic.  The rules require that

 3     you make a solemn declaration at the beginning of your testimony.  The

 4     text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn

 5     declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  PETAR SKRBIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.  Please be seated.

11             Mr. Skrbic, you will first be examined by Mr. McCloskey.

12     Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the Prosecution.  And you'll find him to

13     your right.

14             But before we do so, I'd like to inform you of the following.

15     Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence state that a witness,

16     that is you in this case, may object to making any statement which might

17     tend to incriminate yourself.  We then could compel you to nevertheless

18     answer the question, but any testimony compelled in this way, if it comes

19     to that, shall not be used as evidence in a subsequent prosecution

20     against you.  One exception, if you would not testify in accordance with

21     the truth, then that rule that it could not be held against you would not

22     apply.  Is that clear to you?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you completely, Judge.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then Mr. McCloskey will now start his

25     examination-in-chief.

Page 13981

 1                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 2        Q.   Good morning, General.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   Welcome back.

 5        A.   Thank you.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us your name, please, for the record?

 7        A.   My name is Petar Skrbic.

 8        Q.   And in July 1995, can you tell us your position?

 9        A.   The establishment position I occupied in July 1995 was called

10     assistant commander at the Main Staff for organisational, mobilisation

11     and personnel affairs.

12        Q.   And you had recently been promoted to general that summer, had

13     you not?

14        A.   By virtue of a decree of the President of Republika Srpska, dated

15     24 June 1995, I was promoted into Major General.

16        Q.   And you're a career military officer that went through the ranks

17     in the former JNA, correct?

18        A.   Yes, correct.

19        Q.   And can you describe briefly for us when you came over to the VRS

20     and your positions leading up to your appointment as assistant commander

21     for organisation, mobilisation and personnel with the Main Staff?

22        A.   I joined the Army of Republika Srpska on the 17th of December,

23     1993, and I was assigned to the position of assistant commander of the

24     2nd Krajina Corps of the VRS for morale, religious and legal affairs.

25     I discharged those duties until 24th July 1994.

Page 13982

 1        Q.   And where did you go 24 July 1994?

 2        A.   On the 24th of July, 1994, pursuant to an order of the commander

 3     of the Main Staff of the VRS, I transferred to the Main Staff of the VRS.

 4        Q.   All right.  Now I'd like you to be able to briefly describe to us

 5     your position as assistant commander for organisation, mobilisation and

 6     personnel, but first, can you tell us of those three segments what you

 7     spent most of your time doing of those three?  If, in fact, there was

 8     one.

 9        A.   In the sector that I headed, most of the time was spent on

10     personnel affairs.

11        Q.   Can you give us a brief description of your job as assistant

12     commander for personnel?  What did you -- what did you do?

13        A.   Mr. McCloskey, I was not the only one who was handling these

14     affairs.  It was the entire sector that I headed, and the personnel

15     affairs consisted of several important categories and these are:

16     Education of officers and NCOs of the VRS; assigning officers and NCOs in

17     the army as a whole; appointments of officers and NCOs; making proposals

18     for promotion; and retirement of the officers of the VRS once they meet

19     the requirements.

20        Q.   Let me interrupt.  Who did you make your proposals to?

21        A.   With regard to all the affairs that I listed, I made proposals to

22     my superior commander, the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.

23        Q.   And can you describe for us a little bit about your duties

24     regarding mobilisation?  Mobilisation of what, for example?

25        A.   In the Serbian language, Your Honours, mobilisation has the

Page 13983

 1     meaning, which I believe we share with Mr. McCloskey, of appealing to

 2     civilians and businesses to provide assistance in terms of manpower and

 3     resources.  So in that sense, I listed the needs of the Main Staff of the

 4     VRS in terms of mobilisation, manpower and material assets and made those

 5     proposals to the Secretariat for Defence of Republika Srpska, which was

 6     in charge of the mobilisation affairs that I headed.

 7        Q.   All right.  And do you recall in prior testimony describing your

 8     job as assistant commander and those of the other assistant commanders as

 9     the Main Staff as experts in the implementation of General Mladic's

10     orders?

11        A.   Yes, I recall that.

12        Q.   And you've already mentioned that you made proposals to

13     General Mladic.  Can you now just briefly tell us what you meant when you

14     say that you and the other assistants were experts in the implementation

15     of his orders?

16        A.   Mr. McCloskey, there are two dimensions to the same process.

17     First of all, we make proposals to the commander, for instance, me in my

18     area, I make proposals regarding promotions, and then the commander

19     decides whether to agree with my proposal or not.  If he agrees, and

20     gives a green light, then it is my responsibility to implement his order

21     in practice, with my professional skills.  We write appropriate

22     enactments such as orders on promotion or we prepare decrees for the

23     president of the republic to promote officers into the highest rank,

24     which is general.

25        Q.   All right.  Let's go right to the 12 July 1995, which you have,

Page 13984

 1     as you know, discussed before.  And did you get a call that day to do a

 2     particular -- to get a task going?

 3        A.   I have to tell you, Mr. McCloskey, that it was not on the

 4     12th of July, if we mean the same task, the same issue.  It was on the

 5     11th.  If you mean what you -- what I think you mean, namely

 6     mobilisation, because we discussed this issue for a long time.  That was

 7     on the 11th of July.

 8        Q.   Thank you, General.  That wasn't a test.  That was my mix-up.  So

 9     the phone call that you've talked about many times, you received on the

10     11th of July.  Can you tell us about that?

11        A.   On the 11th of July, in the evening, or, rather, late at night,

12     I received a telephone call, and the collocutor, whose name I still can't

13     remember, informed me that buses need to be commandeered as soon as

14     possible or mobilised as we say in Serbian.  I passed on this demand also

15     by telephone to the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska, and 10 to

16     15 minutes later, a person called Momcilo Kovacevic called me back.

17     Momcilo Kovacevic told me, General, I understood your request but

18     I kindly ask you to put this request in writing tomorrow so that we can

19     implement what you requested on behalf of the Main Staff.  And that's

20     what I did.

21        Q.   And you have in the past told us where this demand came from,

22     have you not?

23        A.   Yes.  That demand came from the operation centre located at

24     Crna Rijeka.

25        Q.   And what person was behind that demand, as far as you knew?  The

Page 13985

 1     demand for buses.

 2        A.   I know that very well.  It was the commander of the Main Staff of

 3     the VRS.

 4        Q.   All right.  Let's go to Exhibit 65 ter 04034.  And as you just

 5     testified, you were asked to get that writing on paper.  I'm sorry that

 6     this is not a great copy but they will blow it up for you.  And we can

 7     see that this is from your sector dated 12 July to the RS Ministry of

 8     Defence, asking in the utmost urgency for at least 50 buses to be sent to

 9     Bratunac.  Is this the written order you -- or the written document that

10     you were just speaking of?

11        A.   Yes, correct.  That's the document.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04034 receives number P1710,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P1710 is admitted.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   And sir, was it your understanding that the MOD understood that

19     this was coming from someone besides just General Skrbic?

20        A.   Mr. McCloskey, what was important there was the functional link.

21     General Skrbic perhaps did not play the most important part there.  But

22     they know, you see the logo, Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

23     They know that it comes from the Main Staff and they took it very

24     seriously, as an imperative.  They could have disregarded it but, in that

25     case, major complications would have resulted.  So they understood this

Page 13986

 1     document as very urgent and that's the way they acted upon it.

 2        Q.   And at the time, did you know what these buses were to be used

 3     for?

 4        A.   I was told that the buses were needed for evacuation.

 5        Q.   And what else did you know about evacuation, for who and from

 6     where, if you know, or if you were told at the time?

 7        A.   Mr. McCloskey, everything is defined in the last sentence of this

 8     document.  If you need me to, I can read from it.

 9        Q.   General, I want to know at the time, on the 11th and 12th of

10     July, did you know who was going to be used -- who was going to be

11     evacuated in these buses?

12        A.   No, I didn't know that.

13        Q.   And did you know where these unknown persons were going to be

14     evacuated to?

15        A.   No.  At that time, I didn't know that either.

16        Q.   At some point, did you find out who was evacuated and where they

17     were evacuated to?

18        A.   That was 20-plus years later.  Judges, Your Honours, I studied a

19     series of documents and now I know what those buses were used for.  Your

20     question was did I know at that point in time, and I answered no.

21        Q.   When did you know what these buses were used for?

22        A.   I don't know how many days later, but when I saw on television, I

23     don't know which studio it was, maybe Bosnia-Herzegovina or Republika

24     Srpska, I heard that those buses had been used for the evacuation of

25     women and children.  Later on, I found out that this video report was

Page 13987

 1     made by a journalist called -- I can't remember his name now, it doesn't

 2     matter -- who filmed it also for the Radio Television Serbia.  Sorry.

 3        Q.   When did you learn from information from the VRS or the Main

 4     Staff how these buses you helped mobilise were used?

 5        A.   I can't remember when that was.

 6        Q.   More than a week after the 12th?

 7        A.   I think, Mr. McCloskey, that it was around the 18th or the 19th

 8     July, but I'm not quite sure.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's go to some of the other documents you've seen

10     before.  Let's start with Exhibit 65 ter 04008.  And we'll recall that

11     your document was to the MOD, and as this comes up, we'll see that this

12     is from the Secretariat of the Defence Ministry of Sarajevo, and it

13     refers to a request from the Main Staff and it gives that number, and

14     I think everyone will agree that that's the same number of your previous

15     order; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17        Q.   And was this MOD document, is that a result of the -- your

18     document that we saw before?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   And when, to your knowledge, were any buses from Sarajevo, the

21     Sarajevo area, when were those buses returned to the Sarajevo area of

22     Republika Srpska after their use here?

23        A.   I am not familiar with that piece of information.

24        Q.   And if prisoners were used -- were put in those buses and

25     transported from the Srebrenica area to the Sarajevo area, who would be

Page 13988

 1     responsible for monitoring the movement of those prisoners from the

 2     Drina Corps area to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps area?  This is something

 3     that you did answer before.

 4        A.   It wasn't only in terms of these buses but all buses used to that

 5     end.  In that respect, it was the task of the civilian traffic police and

 6     the military police.

 7        Q.   Do you recall telling us it was the military police of the

 8     65th Protection Regiment?

 9        A.   Yes.  I do recall having told you that it was the 65th Protection

10     Motorised Regiment.

11        Q.   And do you stand by that?

12        A.   I do.  Possibly parts of the military police of the Drina Corps

13     were engaged as well, but I am not aware of it.

14        Q.   And who was the commander of the 65th Protection Regiment?

15        A.   The commander of the 65th Protection Motorised Regiment was

16     Colonel Milomir Savcic.

17        Q.   And who was his commander?

18        A.   His commander was the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.

19        Q.   Okay.  I would offer this --

20        A.   General Ratko Mladic.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this document into evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04008 receives number P1711,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P1711 is admitted.

Page 13989

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we have Exhibit 65 ter 04010?

 2        Q.   And, General, we can see this is a similar document, just this

 3     time from Zvornik.  So is this like the other one, this came from your

 4     order as we see the number down in this doc?

 5        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey, that is the case.  I do have to point out an

 6     imprecision here.  At the top of the document, just before the number

 7     02-21 and so on, it should also include the heading of the Ministry of

 8     Defence of the RS.  It should be just before the confidential number

 9     02-21.  It was the minister of defence sending this document to the

10     Secretariat of the Defence Ministry in Zvornik, that sent it.  The next

11     indication is the signature.  In the signature block we see Assistant

12     Minister Momcilo Kovacevic who is the same person we mentioned appearing

13     on the previous document.  Let me conclude in a single sentence, then.

14     This document, which is authentic, was sent by the Ministry of Defence of

15     the RS to the Secretariat of the Defence Ministry in Zvornik.  The

16     contents are authentic the way you quoted it.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put just one question for clarification,

18     Mr. Skrbic?  You referred to the name of the person Momcilo Kovacevic but

19     can you recognise the signature in the original?  Is that the signature

20     of Mr. Kovacevic or did somebody else sign on his behalf?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, this is not

22     Momcilo Kovacevic's signature.  He was the assistant minister.  Banduka

23     signed in his stead.  I know him as well.  I would like to draw your

24     attention to the small line -- yes, I see it in English, it says "for."

25     In other words, Mr. Banduka signed for the assistant minister,

Page 13990

 1     Momcilo Kovacevic.  And we see here R Banduka.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   And what's Mr. Banduka's first name?

 5        A.   Mr. McCloskey, as for the first name of this man, Banduka,

 6     I can't recall it, but he's definitely not Rajko Banduka because

 7     Rajko Banduka was not with the Ministry of Defence.  He was with the

 8     Main Staff of the VRS.

 9        Q.   And just briefly, Rajko Banduka of the Main Staff, what was his

10     job?

11        A.   Rajko Banduka had the duty of adjutant of the Main Staff

12     commander, General Mladic.  Later on, in late 1995, we transferred him to

13     another duty in the office of the Main Staff commander.  However, he

14     continued exercising the duty of adjutant to the commander of the

15     Main Staff as well.

16        Q.   And what was General Mladic's nickname for him?  If there was

17     one.

18        A.   As far as I recall, he did not have a nickname.  We all called

19     him Rajko.  That was his first name, not his nickname.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this document into evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04010 receives number P1712,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P1712 is admitted.

Page 13991

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we have Exhibit 65 ter 25812.

 2        Q.   And I'm switching topics now, General.  This is a document I know

 3     you've seen before.  It's a Drina Corps document which, as we can see,

 4     it's 13 July, from the chief of personnel of the Drina Corps, entitled:

 5     "The transfer of duties of corps commander."  And we can see that it's

 6     from Zivanovic to General Krstic.

 7             Did this in fact happen as noted in this document, as far as you

 8     know, a transfer of command from Zivanovic to Krstic?

 9        A.   Yes.  There was a handover of duty, as stated in the document.

10        Q.   And did you meet President Karadzic on the 14th of July, the next

11     day from this document?

12        A.   Mr. McCloskey, I don't quite understand why you make this link

13     with the 13th.  I was unaware of this document until I testified in the

14     Karadzic case, I think.  It is when I realised that this document was

15     drafted before I went to see Mr. Karadzic, the president of the republic,

16     on the 14th of July, 1995, in order to have a decree issued.

17        Q.   That was my point.  So when you saw President Karadzic on the

18     14th, did you have anything to do with this -- the promotion of

19     General Krstic?  Can you tell us what a decree is, in that regard?

20        A.   Mr. McCloskey, you were probably mistaken in saying that

21     General Krstic was promoted.  He had been promoted previously.  The

22     decree had been prepared for the president to sign.  The contents were as

23     followed:  General Krstic is being appointed to the duty of commander of

24     the Drina Corps.  Colonel Svetozar Andric is to be appointed the Chief of

25     Staff.

Page 13992

 1        Q.   So my point is, just briefly, that the Main Staff was aware of

 2     this promotion and you worked with President Karadzic to get it done

 3     correctly; is that right?

 4        A.   The Main Staff was aware, but it did not occur through standard

 5     procedure, that is to say, during a meeting of the collegium of

 6     commanders of the Main Staff -- from the Main Staff.  The proposal came

 7     from the commander of the VRS Main Staff.  When he told me to draft a

 8     decree to be taken to the president, I could have told him, "General,

 9     sir, did you have a good think about this?"  But there was no reason for

10     me to do so.  So I carried the decrees to the president and he signed

11     them.

12        Q.   Do you remember where you were when General Mladic told you this?

13        A.   I was always at the rear command post in Han Pijesak.  Apologies,

14     Your Honour.  It's a problematic area but in any case, at the time, I was

15     in Han Pijesak, at the rear command post.

16        Q.   Well, the Trial Chamber has heard about the command post at

17     Crna Rijeka, and can you tell us very briefly about this command post,

18     the rear one, in the town of Han Pijesak itself?

19        A.   I will try to be brief in answering your question precisely,

20     because you seem to have mixed up some things.  I apologise for that.

21     The basic command post of the Main Staff was in Crna Rijeka.  The rear

22     command post of the Main Staff was in Han Pijesak.  These two locations

23     are between three and five kilometres apart, although I can't recall

24     exactly.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, one of your previous questions was

Page 13993

 1     whether the witness remembers where he was "when General Mladic told you

 2     this."  He told us where he was, but he has not confirmed that it was

 3     there that General Mladic told him, by the way, what exactly.  Could you

 4     clarify that?

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   General, can you tell us where General Mladic was when he told

 7     you about the promotion of Krstic, where you were, and what

 8     General Mladic said, as far as you can recall?

 9        A.   Your Honours, I have to apologise for this half question, if I

10     can put it that way.  I understand Mr. McCloskey when he says

11     "promotion."  In his mind it is someone being promoted to a higher

12     position, but in my parlance, it is simply promotion in terms of rank.

13     There is always this distinction in my mind.  Krstic was not promoted to

14     a higher rank in the course of those few days.  He was promoted --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you there.  The issue is where

16     Mr. Mladic was when he told you about the new position of General Krstic.

17     And did he tell you?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember where he was,

19     Your Honour, whether at Crna Rijeka or somewhere else but I do know he

20     told me so.  It is also possible that he told me that over the phone.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I would offer this

23     document into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 25812 receives number P1713,

Page 13994

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P1713 is admitted.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   And, General, to switch to another topic, in the Popovic case you

 5     told us that Colonel Milos Djurdjic was an aide de camp to

 6     General Mladic, is that correct?  In the summer of 1995?

 7        A.   Mr. McCloskey, I don't think I said so.  Milos Djurdjic was never

 8     aide de camp to General Mladic.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's go into another subject, then.

10             Do you recall going to a new year's celebration for the new year

11     of 1996 with members of the Main Staff, including General Mladic?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   All right.  And I know you've seen this before but I'd like to

14     show you a short clip of a speech General Mladic gave there.  It should

15     be on P1147, and V009268.  And it is starting at 21.53.1, and I hope to

16     show you just a part where General Mladic talks about his core people.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have not been provided

18     with the transcript.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters can merely read out the

21     subtitles.

22             "Ladies, dear guests, colleagues, officers, and generals" --

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, Mr. President, if we can just let the

24     interpreters rest and just read the subtitles ourselves, I think that was

25     our policy.

Page 13995

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think that was an agreement about

 2     subtitles, at least that the Chamber allowed them to be part of the

 3     exhibit.  Could we then restart and the only thing, Mr. McCloskey, if it

 4     is not read, then of course, even if they are accurate, they are missing

 5     on the transcript for those who would read them after us.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, this is part of the trial video

 7     and the transcript, the agreed upon transcript, is now -- is in the

 8     record, the full transcript of this so we should be covered.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we can proceed, and the interpreters do

10     not have to interpret the text.  Could we restart?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we -- Ms. Stewart can go right to the key part

12     so we should hopefully be able to finish before the break.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So we are starting at the key part, 23.53.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay, and we're stopping at 24.51.2.

17        Q.   And do you -- having lived this, do you agree with General Mladic

18     of the people he named as his core people, as the people that made the

19     decisions?

20        A.   One may conclude so on the basis of General Mladic's speech.

21        Q.   My question was:  You lived it.  Do you agree with

22     General Mladic's assessment or was he embellishing a bit?

23        A.   It was a celebration, so he did embellish it a bit.  However, the

24     gist of it is true.

25        Q.   And he spoke briefly about General Tolimir.  Where did

Page 13996

 1     General Tolimir fit in, as far as you know, in the trust of

 2     General Mladic or lack thereof?

 3        A.   I rely on General Mladic's definition.  In other words, he was a

 4     part of the inner circle.

 5        Q.   Do you recall telling us at the Tolimir trial that he was one of

 6     the most trusted people of General Mladic's?

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I do recall.

 8        Q.   General, thank you again for coming.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I have nothing further.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think the wisest thing to do now would be to

11     take a break.  Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.  We

12     take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Skrbic, and we would like to see you back

13     after the break.  You may follow the usher.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you may start your

21     cross-examination.

22             Mr. Skrbic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic

23     is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I just want to inform you that I cut

25     short my questions.

Page 13997

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And could I ask whether the next witness is ready?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't believe so.  I know that Mr. Vanderpuye

 3     is speaking with him right now for the first time.  He just got in from

 4     the States so that would be a tough move.  I've not spoken to

 5     Mr. Vanderpuye yet, but I don't think so.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps he could organise it in such a way that we

 7     go over the simple matters first and -- of course, the problem is that he

 8     couldn't speak with him anymore once we have started hearing his

 9     testimony.  We'll see how it develops.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   You know that I am Branko Lukic and that I am on the Defence team

17     of General Mladic.

18             When you came to the Main Staff of the VRS, did anyone tell you

19     that the second part of the command post of the Main Staff of the VRS was

20     in the vicinity of the main command post but because it was attacked in

21     1992 by Muslim forces from Zepa, it was moved to Han Pijesak and that's

22     why you were there?

23        A.   Mr. Lukic, I was aware of that even before I came to the

24     Main Staff, because when I went to join the Army of Republika Srpska,

25     I went via Han Pijesak, and from then on to Drvar.  At Han Pijesak an

Page 13998

 1     officer, I can't remember who exactly, told me exactly what you've just

 2     said.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I will move from subject to subject quickly only in

 4     the beginning.  Today you've spoken about the Secretariat of the Ministry

 5     of Defence.  Is that a civilian or a military body in the system of

 6     Republika Srpska in 1995?

 7        A.   Secretariats of the MOD all over Republika Srpska belonged to the

 8     Ministry of Defence.  The Ministry of Defence is a ministry, an organ, of

 9     the government of Republika Srpska, and that's a civilian body.

10        Q.   You have been shown P1712.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I would like to see it again in

12     e-court briefly.  I obviously wrote down the wrong number.  This is not

13     the document we need.

14        Q.   But even without the document I can ask you my question.

15     R Banduka was mentioned in one of the documents.  Do you know that at

16     that time Rajko Banduka, ADC to General Mladic, was at the military

17     medical academy in Belgrade undergoing treatment?

18        A.   I don't know that, Mr. Lukic.

19        Q.   All right.  We'll move to some general issues now to provide a

20     broader context for what I want to ask you.  Is it true that in

21     Republika Srpska, general mobilisation was never declared during the war

22     in Bosnia?

23        A.   The process of general mobilisation is linked to the category of

24     the state of war.  The state of war was not proclaimed in the entire

25     territory of the republic until some date in October 1995.

Page 13999

 1        Q.   Just for the record, you said 20-something October, or perhaps

 2     you don't know.

 3        A.   On the 20th or the 27th of October.  I can't recall exactly.

 4        Q.   Towards the end of the war, right?  At the time when

 5     Republika Srpska was losing a lot of territory in the west?

 6        A.   Yes, correct.  Because the war ended on 14 December 1995, after

 7     the signing of the Dayton Accords.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could I seek clarification of one of the

 9     previous answers?  You asked whether in Republika Srpska general

10     mobilisation was never declared during the war in Bosnia.

11             Witness, you answered by saying that general mobilisation is

12     linked to the state of war and you said that was never proclaimed, which

13     does not yet answer the question about the mobilisation, or did you say

14     there was no state of war, therefore there was no mobilisation at all, or

15     was there a 99 per cent mobilisation?  Or could you clarify what the

16     consequences were of no state of war having been declared?  And in

17     factual terms rather than in theory.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there were partial

19     mobilisations carried out by corps commands and other units, but there

20     was no general mobilisation in Republika Srpska until October 1995.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, those partial mobilisations would be what

22     percentage approximately of what would have been a general mobilisation?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In terms of percentage, it varied

24     from 20 to 50 per cent.  It was never 100 per cent mobilisation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, 20 to 50 and not being 100 is far away from

Page 14000

 1     each other.  How many people who would be called upon by a general

 2     mobilisation were finally called upon by such partial mobilisations?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the Law on the Army of

 4     Republika Srpska, all males between the ages of 18 to 60 were subject to

 5     military duty, and that means mobilisation.  Republika Srpska had

 6     370.000 men fit for military service.  370.000 were never mobilised

 7     because the army had, towards the end of the war, 209.000 members.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is, therefore, on average well beyond 50 per

 9     cent?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at the very beginning

11     of the war, when the Army of Republika Srpska was established, it already

12     had a certain amount of personnel.  The reinforcement of the corps, the

13     manning level, was between 70, 75 per cent.  The least strong one was the

14     one in Drvar Corps, and the highest manning levels was in the

15     Eastern Bosnia Corps, and that was the only one that was manned to about

16     92 per cent.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I was asking this question because when I asked you

18     about the partial mobilisation, you said it varied between 20 and

19     50 per cent, then you gave a figure of 209.000 on a totality of 370.000

20     men fit for military service.  And that is, therefore, well beyond

21     50 per cent and not anything between 20 and 50 per cent.  Are you

22     correcting yourself and say it was -- I mean, 50 per cent of 370.000 is

23     185.000 and there were far more than that so it was not between 20 and

24     50 per cent, if I follow you well.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, partial mobilisation

Page 14001

 1     lasted from 1992 until 1995.  It was also done because we suffered losses

 2     and we had to summon new military conscripts to fill our units but we

 3     never achieved 100 per cent mobilisation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   You have already partially answered this question but I'd like to

 7     put it in a legal framework.  Is it correct that the corps had the right

 8     to put requests to municipalities regarding mobilisation and

 9     reinforcement?

10        A.   That is correct, except not to municipalities but secretariats of

11     defence within municipalities.

12        Q.   Thank you for that correction.  Was work obligation under the

13     competence of the army?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   You mentioned who was supposed to secure the convoys and, among

16     others, you mentioned police forces, that is to say, not the military

17     police but civilian.  The police, together with the army, comprised the

18     armed forces of the RS, correct?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   Under the law, police forces engaged in combat are under the

21     command of the army?  Under the law, in combat, that's what I'm asking

22     you about.

23        A.   According to the law, when there is a state of war, then the

24     police forces are commanded by the army.

25        Q.   In practice, did it happen that police forces were under the

Page 14002

 1     command of the army, or did it not happen, to your knowledge?

 2        A.   I am unaware of such practice.  As far as I was informed, in

 3     terms of combat, the police and army cooperated.  They acted jointly.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, I would ask for another clarification.

 5     You just asked the witness, this is page 24, line 5 and 5 through 7:

 6             "You mentioned who were supposed to secure the convoys and, among

 7     others, you mentioned police forces, that is to say, not the military

 8     police but civilian."

 9             Earlier, the witness was, during examination-in-chief, asked

10     about the buses, page 10, line 25 through page 11, line 2, he answered:

11             "It wasn't only in terms of these buses but all buses used to

12     that end.  In that respect it was the task of the civilian traffic police

13     and the military police."

14             Therefore, I'm not quite sure if you are talking about the same

15     matter raised during examination-in-chief.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I'm not excluding military police.  I just wanted to

17     emphasise that he -- that the gentleman -- actually, general mentioned

18     civilian police and that I was asking only about that segment.  I'm not

19     telling -- and I'm not challenging that there was military police in the

20     same operation at the same time.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that clarification.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Earlier, in your previous testimony in other cases, you were

24     asked about directive number 7 and the operation in Srebrenica.  My

25     question for you today is this:  Was there any discussion at the Main

Page 14003

 1     Staff of the VRS concerning the planning of that operation?

 2        A.   No.  Where I was present, the planning of that operation was not

 3     discussed whatsoever.

 4        Q.   You also attended collegium meetings, correct?  Was it discussed

 5     at those meetings?

 6        A.   No.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

 8     repeat.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please repeat your answer?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said no, it was not

11     discussed at collegium meetings of the commander of the Main Staff.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   When the Main Staff commander is not present, who acts on his

15     behalf?  I suppose you know that.

16        A.   As per establishment, it is so defined that the Chief of Staff is

17     also deputy commander of the Main Staff.  No particular documents are

18     necessary to further regulate that situation.  In other words, when the

19     commander of the Main Staff is unable to attend to his tasks, he is

20     replaced by the Chief of Staff.

21        Q.   How many deputies did the Main Staff commander have?

22        A.   Only one, Mr. Lukic.

23        Q.   And how many assistants did he have?

24        A.   The Main Staff commander had six assistants.

25        Q.   Would you agree that the role and position of General Milovanovic

Page 14004

 1     was different to the position of the six assistant Main Staff commanders

 2     [as interpreted]?

 3        A.   Mr. Lukic, I did not refer to General Milovanovic [Realtime

 4     transcript read in error "Nicolai Milovanovic"] but General Manojlo

 5     Milovanovic was at that position.  Irrespective of who the person is in

 6     that position, it is his duty to act as the deputy commander because that

 7     person's competence is defined by his establishment post.  The person in

 8     that position during the war was General Manojlo Milovanovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey?

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just a clarification and translation, it says

11     assistant Main Staff commanders, and if -- that should be assistant

12     commanders of the Main Staff, it's a significant difference.  And also,

13     there is a -- it's Nicolai Milovanovic.  I think that will get corrected

14     but --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It's an obvious mistake there.  But for the first

16     one, Mr. Lukic, I don't know what language you used in your own -- in

17     B/C/S but --

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I said, in terms of

19     General Milovanovic, that -- the term I used is "deputy commander."  As

20     for the other six persons, the term is "assistant commanders."

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you verify with the witness whether he

22     understood the question in that way.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Sir, did you understand me when referring to General Milovanovic

25     that I said he was a deputy Main Staff commander as opposed to the other

Page 14005

 1     six persons whom I termed assistants to the Main Staff commander?

 2        A.   The duty of General Manojlo Milovanovic was as follows:  The

 3     Chief of Staff; at the same time deputy commander of the Main Staff.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  When the Chief of Staff is not present, who decides

 5     on the person who is supposed to replace him?

 6        A.   The Chief of Staff decides that.  If he's to be absent for

 7     objective reasons for a prolonged period, then he's replaced by the

 8     second officer in command.  In other words, it is the commander of the

 9     Main Staff, and my sector drafts an order on that replacement.

10        Q.   Perhaps not everything was caught in interpretation.  You said an

11     order to act in his stead.  Can you explain to us what it is?

12        A.   Mr. Lukic, by virtue of that document it is regulated for what

13     period of time one person is to stand in for another.  That role may not

14     be longer than six months.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, if I may just get some clarification.

16             Witness, at page 27, lines 17 to 20, you said in answer to the

17     question who decides on the person who is supposed to replace the Chief

18     of Staff, you said:

19             "The Chief of Staff decides that.  If he is not -- if he is to be

20     absent for objective reasons for a prolonged period, then he's replaced

21     by the second officer in command.  In other words, it is the commander of

22     the Main Staff ..."

23             I thought the commander of the Main Staff would be -- would not

24     be the second officer, would be the very first person.  Isn't that so?

25     The commander of the Main Staff would be Mr. Mladic but he's not the

Page 14006

 1     second officer.  So when you say "the second officer in command ... in

 2     other words the commander of the Main Staff," I'm getting a bit lost.

 3     Can you clarify that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for

 5     confusing you.  What I said was if someone else is supposed to stand in

 6     for the Chief of Staff, then it cannot be he who decides who will be

 7     standing in.  That is decided on by the commander of the Main Staff.  He

 8     defines the situation as follows.  General Milovanovic will be

 9     substituted by General Miletic.  It wasn't General Mladic who was

10     supposed to soon in for another person.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So it is also not the Chief of Staff who decides

12     that.  It is General Mladic who decides that, the commander of the

13     Main Staff, who decides that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much for the clarification.  Thank

16     you, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, but I will have to come back

18     to this issue.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] When it needs to be decided who will stand in

20     for the Chief of Staff, who will be the first person to do so?  Is it the

21     chief of the Main Staff or is it directly done by General Mladic?

22        A.   Mr. Lukic, I discuss facts here.  It is a fact that no one ever

23     stood in for Manojlo Milovanovic, because he was always in the territory

24     controlled by the VRS.  There is no order in existence on anyone standing

25     in for General Milovanovic.

Page 14007

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You testified about the following.  It is whether in

 2     practice you ever had an opportunity to find yourself in a situation

 3     where a document is signed by President Karadzic, the document that was

 4     supposed to be verified by the commander of the Main Staff, but that

 5     President Karadzic signed such a document even though it had not been

 6     reviewed by the commander of the Main Staff.

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, even with the greatest of efforts, I don't understand

 8     your question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before you clarify your question, you

10     started by saying, "You testified about the following ..."  Were you

11     referring to previous testimony or were you --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, previous testimony.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think for the Chamber to be able to follow

14     the question, it would be good --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- what the testimony at that point in time was.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I was not clear enough and I will correct myself.

18     I would like to call --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic apparently wants to consult with counsel

20     and he can do so but at non-audible volume.

21                           [Defence counsel and Accused confer]

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will proceed.

23             [Interpretation] I don't see the 65 ter number now.  I'll find it

24     hopefully in another place.  Just a moment.

25        Q.   I need your testimony of 17 September 2007, which was a Monday.

Page 14008

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Maybe 29059.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  That's why we don't have it.  That's right, 29059,

 3     that's why I was confused.  And we need e-court page 62, which should

 4     correspond to transcript page 15523.

 5             And I will read from lines 18 to 23.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] General, first of all, let me tell you that this

 7     was a discussion about directive number 7, signed by the president, and I

 8     will now quote the question.

 9             [In English] "Q.  And who is able to make corrections and return

10     the directive?

11             "A.  Well, I suppose that the commander of the Main Staff of the

12     VRS had to review this document before the president signed it, but

13     sometimes the president signed even though the commander of the

14     Main Staff wasn't aware of it, and I don't know whether the commander of

15     the Main Staff reviewed this or not."

16             [Interpretation] So my previous question, which may have been

17     confusing when I put it first, was, did you know of cases when

18     President Karadzic signed documents that should have been previously

19     reviewed by the commander of the Main Staff but had not been?

20        A.   No, Mr. Lukic.  I was not aware of that, but I stand by my

21     statement, my evidence that I had given and you had just read in the

22     English language, and I would not change anything to it.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at 65 ter 14580?

25        Q.   While we are waiting, this document has been shown to you before,

Page 14009

 1     and I will not go into the detail that my colleagues at previous trials

 2     had gone into, but it's a letter by President Karadzic that he sent to

 3     General Milan Gvero, late Milan Gvero.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, there is no English translation of

 5     this document.  Actually there is but there is no document under it.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated] -- this number.

 7     [Interpretation] I will just read out briefly and we won't go into the

 8     essence of the document.  I'm just showing you a document from which we

 9     see that President Karadzic contacted General Gvero directly in his

10     letter of 18 December 1994.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we nevertheless see it on our screens, even if

12     it's only English version?  Oh, let me see.  Yes.  Oh, it's -- I'm a bit

13     confused by your observation, Madam Registrar, that an English document

14     is there but --

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, there is only B/C/S version and

16     there is something uploaded as English translation but it's empty page.

17             MR. LUKIC:  We will correct it and I will not deal with that

18     substance of this document at all at this moment.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you started already by asking a question.  But

20     let's proceed for this moment, and if the Prosecution would know of an

21     English translation which can be produced quickly - I see Ms. Stewart is

22     working hard - then that would be highly appreciated.  It is a document

23     apparently of the 18th of December, 1994.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I'm just informed that we have the translation after

25     1D1 -- 1104, 1D1104.

Page 14010

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Is it true that President Karadzic was able to

 4     contact anyone on the Main Staff or any of the corps, as Supreme

 5     Commander?

 6        A.   Not only was he able to, but we see that he did it in practice.

 7     That is not forbidden him anywhere in so many words.  The president can

 8     contact a soldier if he wants to, but to leave a trace of bypassing the

 9     commander of the Main Staff and addressing an assistant commander of the

10     Main Staff of the commander is contrary to the system of competences, the

11     hierarchy.  General Gvero should have informed General Mladic that he

12     received this document.  In some previous trials, some evidence was shown

13     to me that General Gvero did that, but he still answered this letter,

14     I suppose with the approval of the commander of the Main Staff.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it's very difficult to understand both

16     the testimony and the document if we do not know what happened before

17     this letter was sent.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, I'll try to clarify them a

19     bit.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] General, is it true that the relations between

21     President Karadzic and General Mladic, as well as the relations between

22     President Karadzic and General Gvero, at the moment of writing of this

23     letter were disrupted to a great extent?

24        A.   They were disrupted, especially between General Gvero and the

25     president of the republic, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 14011

 1        Q.   Is it the case that President Karadzic had asked for the

 2     dismissal of General Gvero?

 3        A.   That's correct, more than once.

 4        Q.   Is it true that President Karadzic also wanted General Tolimir

 5     replaced, as well as Djukic, Lisica, Milutinovic, and even

 6     General Ratko Mladic?

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, you enumerated a lot of them.  There was a particular

 8     situation for each of these generals.  MPs in the Assembly of

 9     Republika Srpska asked for the replacement of Djukic, Lieutenant-Colonel

10     Milutinovic, General Gvero, but not General Ratko Mladic.  However, the

11     president of the republic tried to replace General Ratko Mladic already

12     back in 1993.  I wasn't there at the time but I heard that story.  And

13     then he moved him to a different duty, which was advisor for defence at

14     the Office of the President of the Republic.  Since that duty did not

15     exist according to establishment, we in the Main Staff understood that he

16     simply replaced General Mladic.

17             The president did not write a decree replacing any of these

18     generals and putting them on stand-by, but he spread the story around his

19     party and in his entourage that these generals need to be replaced.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question in this respect.  Whose

21     competence was it to appoint or to replace a general?  Was that not the

22     competence of the Supreme Commander, being the President of Republika

23     Srpska?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour.  That was

25     within the exclusive jurisdiction of the president of the republic.

Page 14012

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So if you say that President Karadzic wanted to get

 2     rid of many of these generals at one point in time, he could have just

 3     have signed a decree saying that you are hereby dismissed from your

 4     function?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly, but he did not do that.

 6     He did not issue a document.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, he apparently was not determined to -- no

 8     speaking at a level which can be understood by anyone else in this

 9     courtroom.

10             I started my question.  I said, apparently he was not determined

11     to dismiss them because, otherwise, he would have signed a decree to that

12     effect.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely correct.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I think --

15             MR. LUKIC:  I'll just consult briefly with my client.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and would you please tell him that he should

17     keep his volume down.

18                           [Defence counsel and Accused confer]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we get a time frame, especially for that

21     last attempt, as he says, to fire Mladic?  The time frame is key to all

22     these issues.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us, Witness, when it was you

24     said that Mr. Karadzic wanted to have Mr. Mladic to be replaced?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I heard the story

Page 14013

 1     that he wanted to replace him back in 1993, but I know for a fact that

 2     the president wrote a decree replacing General Ratko Mladic on the

 3     4th of August, 1995, and appointing him advisor for defence to the

 4     president at the military Office of the President of the Republic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But from whom did you learn that Mr. Karadzic wanted

 6     to replace General Mladic in 1993?  Do you have any basis for what you

 7     heard, from whom did you hear it, why didn't it take effect?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that from General

 9     Manojlo Milovanovic.  He told me, Your Honours, that he did not want to

10     accept that duty, and that's why, in the opinion of General Milovanovic,

11     that replacement did not take effect.  Those were the words of

12     General Milovanovic.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Who did not want to accept what duty, as you were

14     told?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Manojlo Milovanovic did not

16     want to accept the duty of the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you know - and if you don't, simply tell us that you don't

20     know - whether President Karadzic contacted General Krstic directly

21     concerning the planning of the Srebrenica operation?

22        A.   I don't know that firsthand.  I know that second hand, from the

23     book of Dr. Kosta Cavoski where he cited an example where

24     President Karadzic contacted General Krstic in Vlasenica and approved the

25     Srebrenica operation.  I don't know if I may tell you, Your Honours, that

Page 14014

 1     in my testimony in the Karadzic case, I confirmed that document because

 2     Mr. Karadzic showed me that document.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, books written by whomever who played a

 4     role, and I don't know who this author is, Dr. Kosta, but the Chamber

 5     usually has some hesitation --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I'll move on.  I'll move on.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I asked if the general had his personal knowledge

 9     about this.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  He has no personal knowledge --

11             MR. LUKIC:  He has no personal --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- he just read it in a book.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  When I say "please proceed," I'd

15     forgotten to look at the clock.  We will take a break.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I don't have much.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have much after the break, how long?

18             MR. LUKIC:  15, 20 minutes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  15, 20 minutes.  Could we also hear after the break,

20     Mr. McCloskey, what your plans are as far as the next witness is

21     concerned?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, nothing as yet, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We will hear from you after the break.

24             The witness may be escorted out of the courtroom.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 14015

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we will resume at 10 minutes

 2     past 12.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.13 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 6             Mr. McCloskey, as far as the next witness is concerned?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I've been trying to find Mr. Vanderpuye.  He's

 8     working with the witness in some room, and someone --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I saw him in the corridor --

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ah.  Well, I hope he's [overlapping speakers] --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  He's apparently not in a room but --

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  He should get my concern passing on your

13     concern, and so we can hear back from him, but I didn't contact him.

14     I wasn't able to.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I should have asked him but I refrained from doing

16     that.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please continue.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   General, we are nearing the end of this examination.  I only have

21     a few questions left.  Let's look at another document.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P1710 on the

23     screens.

24        Q.   While waiting for the document, I can tell you it is your

25     document with your typed signature of the 12th of July, 1995.  From this

Page 14016

 1     document of yours, as well as other documents that were shown today by

 2     the Prosecution, which were sent by the Ministry of Defence or its

 3     secretariat, we see that buses were sent to Bratunac.  At that moment in

 4     time, there was no one in Bratunac, out of the people that required

 5     transportation.  Do you know who rerouted the buses from Bratunac to

 6     Potocari?

 7        A.   I don't know about that.

 8        Q.   We can see that many documents regarding the commandeering of the

 9     buses remained.  Did anyone ever tell you that it was supposed to be a

10     covert operation, that it was supposed to be secret?

11        A.   No.  No one ever told me that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you said, "We can see that many documents

13     regarding the commandeering of the buses remained."  What did you refer

14     to exactly?

15             MR. LUKIC:  That still they are available for -- there are

16     documents in regard of this mobilisation or commandeering of the buses.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We've seen until now three, isn't it, this morning?

18     We saw the request for mobilising 50 buses.  We see then an order to send

19     at least 20 buses from several places.  And then other buses to be sent

20     by Zvornik, I think.  Is that all you refer to or --

21             MR. LUKIC:  There are more documents, Drina Corps, there are

22     documents also from the list of the Prosecution but since they did not

23     use it, we do not intend to use those documents.  Maybe that's why I was

24     talking about many documents.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the reason is we -- you put to the

Page 14017

 1     witness that there are many documents remaining.  I don't know whether

 2     the witness is aware of it and you have not been very specific --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not -- you could have asked that question

 5     without that introduction and then the answer still stands, I think, so

 6     let's proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I'm sure that the

 8     witness is aware of those documents since he testified about them in

 9     other cases.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber is not aware of that.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Sorry.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] After this period, you went to Krajina, correct?

13     When did you go there and why?  Briefly tell us, please.

14        A.   Krajina, which is the western part of Republika Srpska, it is

15     where I went in early August 1995.  Some Main Staff officers had gone

16     there even earlier, in late July that same year.

17        Q.   When you arrived in Krajina, did you find General Mladic there?

18        A.   Yes, exactly.  I think it was at Kula.  It is a location near

19     Mrkonjic Grad.  Mrkonjic Grad is between 70 and 80 kilometres away from

20     Banja Luka.

21        Q.   I am asking you this concerning your statement whereby you say

22     that at Main Staff collegium meetings there was no discussion of

23     Srebrenica.  From today's point of view, it sounds rather odd, probably

24     from the point of view of the Chamber, and the Prosecution, and Defence.

25     In order for us to understand, kindly describe to us what kind of

Page 14018

 1     situation you encountered in Krajina and what were you busy with there?

 2     In a few sentences, please.

 3        A.   It was a difficult situation for the VRS, starting with

 4     August 1994.  However, the situation became the most difficult in late

 5     July, and it lasted until the end of the war, that is to say, the

 6     14th December 1995, when we were left completely isolated, meaning the

 7     VRS and Republika Srpska.  We had to oppose the offensive of Croatian

 8     forces from Croatia which were in coalition with the Army of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina and assisted by NATO aviation, in terms of full air

10     support.  They all attacked Republika Srpska, and that is when we started

11     losing chunks of territory and the towns such as Glamoc, Drvar, Petrovac,

12     Jajce, Kljuc, Sanski Most.  There was a danger of losing Prijedor and

13     Novi Grad.  In addition, refugees presented a large problem.  They had

14     come from the territory of Croatia, as well as those refugees from all of

15     the towns I mentioned, which were in Republika Srpska.  In brief, the

16     problem was in the refugees occupying all roads where the army could

17     conduct manoeuvres.  Thus, we were rendered incapable of manoeuvring our

18     units in order to place them in a position to offer at least some kind of

19     resistance.  As you know, the problem was resolved in a very negative way

20     for the VRS and Republika Srpska.  In addition to the refugees, we had

21     suffered a lot of casualties, in terms of manpower, and we lost

22     equipment.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness or Mr. Lukic, I fail to see the connection

24     between what happened in the Krajina and not discussing the Srebrenica

25     operation in the collegium.  That's totally unclear to me.  Could you

Page 14019

 1     further clarify or could you put more specific questions to the witness,

 2     Mr. Lukic?  But if the witness is able to establish a link between the

 3     two, we would like to hear.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood your question,

 5     Your Honour.  May I answer?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of the enormous problems

 8     and tasks that we had to deal with in the western part of the RS, we

 9     simply had no time to discuss Srebrenica.  There was simply no time.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You said there was no time, although it was an

11     operation of considerable magnitude.  Nevertheless, you find no time to

12     discuss it?  Or concentrated in that area rather than in the Krajina, but

13     you were with your mind in the Krajina but the operation without any

14     discussion was developing near Srebrenica?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Following the 20th of July, 1995,

16     there was simply no time for us to discuss it.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But perhaps prior to that date, before the

18     operation started?  During the operation?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that I did not

20     attend such meetings where Srebrenica would be discussed.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So it may well have been discussed in the collegium

22     but in your absence?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not exclude that possibility.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  How many collegium meetings you did not attend?

25     Well, let's say from mid-June to mid-July.

Page 14020

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I always attended such collegium

 2     meetings when promotions, appointments and deployment of officers was

 3     discussed, but at such meetings, Srebrenica was not discussed.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   General Skrbic, is it correct, and to the best of your

 7     recollection, that in the Main Staff of the VRS, the operation in

 8     Srebrenica was not planned or discussed, prior to its implementation?

 9        A.   According to what I subsequently learned, that was a Drina Corps

10     operation.  It was not a Main Staff of the VRS operation.

11        Q.   This is where I'd like to conclude.  General, thank you for

12     answering our questions.

13        A.   Thank you as well.

14                           Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I give an opportunity to Mr. McCloskey to put

16     some further questions to you, you said to your knowledge the operation

17     in Srebrenica was not planned or discussed in the Main Staff, it was all

18     the Drina Corps.  Now, why did you then ask for 50 buses to be mobilised

19     if it -- I do understand that this came directly from the Main Staff.

20        A.   Not directly from the Main Staff, but the commander of the Main

21     Staff, General Ratko Mladic.  I was aware that this order emanated from

22     him.  Those buses had never been planned in that operation.  And

23     subsequently, when I read some documents about Krivaja 95, I never found

24     a reference to it.  The buses were commandeered on the 12th of July 1995.

25     They were not part of any plan.

Page 14021

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But they became part of a plan on the 11th of July,

 2     when you were asked, not by the Drina Corps but by the commander of the

 3     Main Staff, or at least within Main Staff circles, to provide such buses.

 4        A.   Correct.  They became part of that plan.  But it's also true that

 5     the Drina Corps issued an order, which hasn't been shown to you but I

 6     know it, stipulated that their own buses, buses that they owned, be used

 7     for that purpose.  They were as per establishment part of the

 8     Drina Corps, these buses.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, through the Main Staff, at least

10     another 50 buses were asked for, not by the Drina Corps but through the

11     Main Staff.  Do you have any explanation for that?

12        A.   That is correct.  The Main Staff did that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you asked for those buses and they should

14     go to the Bratunac sports stadium.  Did you have any idea what would

15     happen when those buses would have arrived at the Bratunac sports

16     stadium?

17        A.   No, Your Honour, I had no idea.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So you sent buses to a certain place and then

19     without any knowledge as whether they would stand there for 14 days

20     waiting for further instructions by whomever?

21        A.   It is not I who sent them.  The Ministry of Defence sent them.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You asked that they would be sent to the Bratunac

23     sports stadium, and that is exactly what the minister of defence then

24     told them to do.  What, again, would, in view of you, happen when they

25     arrived there?  Who would receive them?  Who would give further

Page 14022

 1     instructions?

 2        A.   I don't know who received, them but somebody was probably in

 3     charge of receiving them and telling them what to do.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you sent -- ask you for 50 buses to be

 5     sent without any knowledge on who would receive them and tell them what

 6     to do, so if no one would have been there, the buses would have stood

 7     there?

 8        A.   No, Your Honour.  It was not my responsibility to direct the

 9     buses.  That was the job of the traffic police and the military police.

10     They directed the buses.  My competence ceased after writing the request

11     to the Ministry of Defence.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I understood your evidence to be that the

13     police would escort the buses.  Now, if you are escorting a convoy of

14     buses, someone must have decided on where they should be escorted to, or

15     was it the military police who knew where they had to go and what to do,

16     whom to load?

17        A.   They knew on which road the buses should drive, and they took

18     them - I suppose they took them - to the stadium at Bratunac.  The

19     military police had the responsibility to provide safe passage for the

20     buses because there was the danger they might be attacked by Muslim

21     forces, and the traffic police directed them along which route to go.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Would the traffic police tell them where to go?

23     Would that be a decision for the traffic police?

24        A.   No.  The traffic police only received a route in order to be able

25     to guide them in cooperation with the military police.

Page 14023

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  From whom would they receive the route?

 2        A.   I wouldn't know that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So you asked for sending 50 buses without knowing in

 4     any way what they would be used for, where to go, who would give the

 5     instructions; the only thing you would know is that the police would

 6     escort for safety purposes?  That's why you were asking 50 buses for?

 7        A.   Up to the stadium in Bratunac, I said clearly in my request to

 8     the ministry, and they knew where this route leads.  From Sarajevo,

 9     Zvornik, Bijeljina, they sent buses to the stadium at Bratunac.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not interested that much in the route from

11     Sarajevo to Bratunac but in any route on from Bratunac.  Who would tell

12     them where to go, who would tell them to go to Potocari and either to

13     load men -- women and children or to load military-able men?

14        A.   I don't know that, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That sounds rather naive.  Would you agree with me

16     that asking for 50 buses, not knowing anything further, may sound a bit

17     naive?

18        A.   It may sound naive to you, Your Honour, but I didn't have that

19     problem.  What mattered to me was the location where the buses should

20     arrive, and that was enough.  I suppose somebody must have been there to

21     tell them what to do.  Now, who told them, I can only guess.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And if not, you would have ordered 50 buses for

23     nothing.  Is that how I have to understand your testimony?

24        A.   50 buses for nothing was not possible.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you didn't know by whom they were received and

Page 14024

 1     what further instructions would be given.  You had no clue.  So if no one

 2     would have been there, the buses would have been gone there for nothing.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer?

 5        A.   If you assume that, then they would have gone there for nothing.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you have any reason to assume anything else

 7     apart from a vague kind of someone will be there, someone will give

 8     instructions?

 9        A.   The formulation that I put in the document was enough for me,

10     namely, evacuation.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Where does it say "evacuation" in the document?  It

12     doesn't say anything about evacuation, does it?

13        A.   I'm sorry, it doesn't.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Why didn't you write the purpose in the letter?

15        A.   Well, I can't remember why I didn't put it there.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Evacuation from whom, from where?

17        A.   We often used buses to transport the personnel of the VRS, and we

18     also used buses to transport population.  Now, I learned later what these

19     particular buses were used for, but at that moment, I didn't know it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, it was your special task to figure out how much

21     mobilisation you would need, 50 buses equals 2500 people, approximately?

22     50 persons on a bus?

23        A.   Your Honours, it was not my job to make estimates, how many buses

24     need to be commandeered.  I was told that exactly 50 buses were needed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  By whom was this told to you?

Page 14025

 1        A.   The officer who told me, over the phone, the task issued by the

 2     commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, General Mladic.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you possibly consider 2500 of your own men to

 4     have to be transported at that point in time at that place?

 5        A.   No way.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So what you earlier said about transportation of

 7     troops, for which you might need buses, that certainly would not apply,

 8     if I understand you well.

 9        A.   No.  That was not the case.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So by 11 July, it was clear that approximately

11     2.500 people had to be transported, when you received that telephone

12     call?

13        A.   What is the question?  I didn't understand.  It's true that I got

14     that telephone call on the 11 July.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So by the 11th of July, the need for the

16     transportation of approximately 2500 people was known within the

17     Main Staff?

18        A.   The number was not mentioned, only the number of buses was

19     mentioned, 50.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could that mean anything else than

21     50 times -- well, 45 or 50?  Isn't it true that approximately 50 persons

22     fit into a bus?

23        A.   How much would that be?  I would need to do the sums.  You said

24     correctly, 2.500 people can fit in, but I didn't do the math.  An

25     infantry brigade numbers 2500 people.  A Light Infantry Brigade is 1500

Page 14026

 1     people.  There were several brigades there from the Drina Corps.  That

 2     could have occurred to me as an estimate, but I did not go into

 3     estimating why these buses were needed.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  A minute ago, you told me that it was inconceivable

 5     at that point in time that you would need transportation for

 6     2.500 troops.  So therefore I do not understand why you're now referring

 7     to troops, when you said that was not a possibility at that time.

 8        A.   That is correct.  Only now did it occur to me how many men make

 9     an infantry brigade, and that's why I told you that, so you have an idea

10     how many men an infantry brigade has.  An infantry brigade has 2500 men.

11     The 1st Zvornik --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you.  There you told us a minute ago

13     that it was not troops or brigades that had to be transported.  So

14     therefore the comparison is useless.  I'm talking about 2500 persons.

15             At this moment, I have no further questions for you.

16             Mr. McCloskey, any -- yes, Judge Fluegge has one or more

17     questions for you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sorry, just on the same topic.  During the

19     examination by the Presiding Judge, you used the term "evacuation" and

20     then were you surprised that this term doesn't appear in your request

21     signed by you of the 12th of July, 1995.  Earlier this morning, you used

22     the term "evacuation" as well.  That is on page 9 at the end, just a

23     moment, page 8, last line, you were asked by Mr. McCloskey:

24             "And at the time, did you know what these buses were to be used

25     for?"

Page 14027

 1             Your answer was:

 2             "I was told that the buses were needed for evacuation."

 3             That was your first answer.  Then you gave different answers,

 4     that you -- some days later -- learned that they were used for

 5     transportation of women and children.  And then you referred to studies

 6     of documents some 20 years later.  You were told the purpose of

 7     requesting 50 buses were for evacuation.  That was your first answer this

 8     morning.  What kind of evacuation did have you in mind?

 9        A.   Evacuation implies an evacuation of the population.  That's what

10     I had in mind, and I stand by the term "evacuation."

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you have information that the population was

12     gathered at the football stadium at that point in time?

13        A.   At that point in time, no.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But you specifically asked for 50 buses to be

15     sent to the sports stadium in Bratunac.

16        A.   Yes.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No further questions.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I give an opportunity to Mr. McCloskey, one

19     other question is why would the civilian population, the women and the

20     children, why would they have to be evacuated?  They were living there.

21     What was the military need to evacuate them?

22        A.   Your Honours, beginning with 1992, and until the end of 1995,

23     there were movements of populations throughout the Republika Srpska.

24     Every part of the territory affected by combat saw its population

25     evacuated.  Only refugees from Croatia and the western part of Bosnia,

Page 14028

 1     or, rather, Republika Srpska, did not use buses.  Instead they used

 2     tractors, trucks, horse-drawn carts, et cetera.  They even walked.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So was it intended, then, that the civilian

 4     population would move out?

 5        A.   I cannot answer that question.  I don't know about intention.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But why request 50 buses to be mobilised if there is

 7     no intention to evacuate, as you said, the women and the children?

 8        A.   Not the women and children.  Evacuation, full stop.  It's

 9     possible to evacuate population regardless of nationality, ethnicity.

10     The Serbian population could be evacuated on these buses too because

11     there was combat around.  The population of my native place, Glamoc,

12     fled.  Nobody evacuated them.  They went, escaped in a totally

13     disorganised way, ran to forests.  They fled before NATO bombs.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the Chamber received evidence that the

15     population of the enclaves at that point in time was, if not exclusively,

16     almost exclusively non-Serb.  So therefore my question then again is:

17     You more or less implied as a suggestion that it could be Serbs to be

18     evacuated, but the civilian population in that area to be evacuated

19     apparently were non-Serbs.

20        A.   No, sir.  No, Your Honour.  I didn't say Serbs.  I said Serbs too

21     could be evacuated.  Kravica, Skelani, et cetera.  Many other places

22     around populated by Serbs.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you suggesting that the 50 buses were needed not

24     to evacuate the civilian population or whatever other population from the

25     enclaves, but that they were requested in order to evacuate the Serbs

Page 14029

 1     from surrounding villages from Srebrenica?  Is that what you're

 2     suggesting in your answer?

 3        A.   No, Your Honour.  That's not what I'm suggesting.  I'm just

 4     saying there was a possibility.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But there were almost no Serbs living in the

 6     enclaves, so if it's not the people around the enclaves, you said, well,

 7     also Serbs, but there were hardly, if any, any Serbs in the enclaves.  At

 8     least that is evidence.  The Chamber has not determined that, but until

 9     now the evidence suggests strongly that there were hardly any Serbs in

10     the enclaves.

11        A.   Your Honours, you're quite right.  According to the census, from

12     1991, in Srebrenica there were 1400 Serbs as opposed to 3.400 Muslims and

13     146 Croats.  Now, those 1400 Serbs, I really don't know where they are.

14     They were not in Srebrenica because Srebrenica had been cleansed from

15     Serbs.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so there were no Serbs to be evacuated, if

17     I understand your testimony well, from the enclaves.

18        A.   Your understanding is correct, Your Honour, there were none.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, in the Main Staff, there were -- there

20     was an awareness of a need for 50 buses for evacuation?

21        A.   Yes, correct.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, do you have any further questions in

23     re-examination?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Very briefly.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 14030

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 2        Q.   General, we see this document.  It also says that the buses need

 3     to be sent to Bratunac by a certain time, they thought it was 1430 hours,

 4     on the 12th.  So if those buses don't get to the stadium by the 12th or

 5     to Bratunac, the call would be to you, where were they, wouldn't it?

 6        A.   That was not my responsibility.  I would have probably, because

 7     you are also talking in assumptions, I would have probably received a new

 8     request to commandeer buses if those buses did not arrive.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's -- you've also spoken of the Drina Corps and

10     the Drina Corps getting their own buses and so I'd like to show you a

11     document.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter 04143.

13        Q.   And we can see that this is from the command of the Drina Corps

14     on 12 July, and the stamp we see 12 July at 1000 hours on one of the

15     segments.  And we see that it's to the VRS Main Staff, command post.  We

16     know where that is.  We also see to the rear command post for

17     information.  That's where you are, right?

18        A.   Yes, correct, that's where I was, at the rear command post.

19        Q.   And you had the responsibility to implement General Mladic's

20     orders for buses, correct, see to it that it was implemented?

21        A.   The person at the Ministry of Defence, as you've seen in some

22     documents, Mr. McCloskey, made secretariats responsible for informing

23     them immediately about the execution of their task, and as a good

24     colleague, that person called me and said, "General, the buses had been

25     mobilised."

Page 14031

 1        Q.   So you were monitoring and -- Mladic's order?

 2        A.   That's right.  Up until the moment of commandeering.  That is

 3     when my task ends.

 4        Q.   And we see here that it says, pursuant to the VRS GS commander's

 5     order to provide 50 buses for evacuation from the Srebrenica enclave, and

 6     then they ask for fuel.  So is this -- this is Mladic again, same order

 7     for 50 buses, or a different one, as far as you know?

 8        A.   It doesn't say what kind of order it is, whether it was oral or

 9     written.  It just says pursuant to the order.  It means that the

10     Drina Corps command and the commander were familiar with General Mladic

11     issuing such an order.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But it's all connected,

14     Mr. McCloskey.  Buses need fuel.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, it's all connected.  Could -- I would offer

16     this into evidence, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04143 receives number P1714,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  It is admitted into

21     evidence.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   General, I won't go into this.  You've just referred briefly to

24     the Serbs being run out of Knin, Glamoc, Grahovo, and I think you've said

25     previously that that was a crime.  Are you having trouble acknowledging

Page 14032

 1     you were involved in the bussing of the Muslims out of Srebrenica because

 2     you know that was a crime as well?  You have the right to remain silent.

 3        A.   Your Honour, I'd like to remain silent in terms of this question,

 4     if possible.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. McCloskey, the witness has no right to

 6     remain silent but can he invoke his right not incriminate himself which

 7     is not exactly the same, but the Chamber will --

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will not compel to you answer the

10     question.

11             Please, Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would not insist and

13     I have nothing further.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Lukic?

15             MR. LUKIC:  I will have a brief one on this document as well.

16                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] General, we have before us the document.  In the

18     penultimate paragraph we find the following wording:  Their final

19     destination is unknown to us for the moment.

20             Do you know who determined, since obviously the Drina Corps

21     command on 12 July 1995 did not know what the destination was of these

22     buses, do you know now, or did you know then, what the destination was?

23     And do you know who had the right to decide on the final destination of

24     these buses?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey?

Page 14033

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  It's misstatement of the evidence

 2     except for the last part.  It's not the destination.  The destination is

 3     clear, to Srebrenica, but what is not clear yet is the final destination.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I took it that Mr. Lukic referred to the final

 5     destination.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I'm sorry to --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us, Witness, where the command of the

 8     Drina Corps did not know what the final destination of these buses was,

 9     did you know at the time what the destination was or who could decide on

10     what the final destination would be?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I knew that the buses

12     were supposed to be in Bratunac at a particular time.  As for the final

13     destination, I was unaware of it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you know who could decide on the final

15     destination?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And who would it be that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The VRS Main Staff commander.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any further questions?

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Are you saying today that the Drina Corps commander could not

22     decide on the destination of these buses?

23        A.   Not without the approval by the Main Staff commander.  It is my

24     assumption, in answer to your question.

25        Q.   So that is your answer.

Page 14034

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We have no further questions for you, Mr. Skrbic.

 3     Therefore, this concludes your evidence in this Court.  I would like to

 4     thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered all

 5     the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and

 6     I wish you a safe return home again.  You may follow the usher.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey?

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I have received word from

11     Mr. Vanderpuye, and he is currently in the process of typing up a

12     proofing note from the witness and really needs a bit of time to do that.

13     And so we really can't bring him on today, time wise.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it would not be good, Mr. Lukic, because you

15     would not be aware of the content of the proofing note.  You would have

16     no time to consider it.  Therefore I suggest that at the end of this

17     session, that we adjourn for the day.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Suggestion accepted.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but we'll not adjourn until -- well, Mr. Groome

20     most likely will read the transcript anyhow.  We would like to enquire

21     with the Prosecution about the remainder of the Prosecution's

22     presentation of evidence and we do not expect an answer within the next

23     few minutes, Mr. McCloskey.

24             The Prosecution has repeatedly stated that its presentation of

25     evidence may conclude in the fall of 2013.  The Chamber has three

Page 14035

 1     inquiries in relation to that.

 2             Number 1:  The Chamber would like to inquire whether it would be

 3     possible for the Prosecution to file all remaining Rule 92 bis, Rule 92

 4     quater and bar table motions by the 30th of August, 2013.  May I take it

 5     that you have no immediate answer to that, Mr. McCloskey?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I know internally we are trying to do that

 7     ourselves but as for committing us, not yet.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  We would like then to hear from you or

 9     Mr. Groome in, well, let's say, within the next one or two days.

10             Second:  Could the Prosecution indicate the scope of what is

11     still left to be tendered, for example, number of 92 bis, quater,

12     witnesses, number of bar table documents?  The Chamber would like have an

13     impression on what we still can expect.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, that's known.  That's just a matter of doing

15     it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we would like to hear from the

17     Prosecution also within the next few days.

18             Three:  Could the Prosecution indicate where it stands in

19     relation to tendering voluminous expert reports such as the one of

20     Mr. Theunens, if you still intend to call Mr. Theunens, because the

21     Chamber would then like to set a deadline for that.  And we are thinking

22     of the 26th of July.  Because Mr. Theunens at present is scheduled to be

23     called to testify mid-September.

24             Then for other expert reports such as the ones for witnesses

25     Tabeau, Treanor, and Brown, the Prosecution is also urged to file them as

Page 14036

 1     soon as possible.

 2             Mr. Groome will certainly read it and will discuss it with you,

 3     and we would like to receive answers to those inquiries within the few

 4     days to come.

 5             We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the

 6     9th of July, at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, III.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.12 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of July,

 9                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.