Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14219

 1                           Thursday, 11 July 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             No preliminaries, therefore the witness can be escorted into the

11     courtroom.

12             Due to my absence of yesterday, I hand over the acting Presidency

13     at this moment to Judge Moloto for the remainder of the testimony of

14     Mr. Manning.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, Mr. Manning.

17             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to remind you that you're still bound by the

19     declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony yesterday to tell

20     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

21             THE WITNESS:  I understand that, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             Mr. Ivetic, you may continue with your cross-examination.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           WITNESS:  DEAN MANNING [Resumed]

Page 14220

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

 2        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   Yesterday we left off at 65 ter number 1D1114 and I would like to

 5     return to that document today as well.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can have page 4 of the same in e-court.

 7        Q.   Okay now, sir, you mentioned yesterday that some of your

 8     investigations related to Ovcara and Vukovar and therefore I would like

 9     to draw your attention to comment number 4 of this review where the

10     stated medical doctor from New Zealand talks about:

11             "No trenching done in Ovcara.  64 bodies removed in one day to

12     spite a UNTAES photographer.  Not all bodies were fluoroscoped."

13             Did you have occasion to be advised of this type of criticism or

14     review of the exhumation work relating to Ovcara as part of your work

15     with the Office of the Prosecutor?

16        A.   I don't believe so.  I was, as I said yesterday, aware of the

17     criticisms.  I had been aware that it had been dealt with by an inquiry,

18     and that issue I don't recall being raised again in subsequent years.

19        Q.   Based upon your knowledge and training, would you agree with me

20     that fluoroscoping of mortal remains is a very fundamental and important

21     part of the process of removing and examining the remains from a grave as

22     part of a criminal investigation?

23        A.   Yes, I agree with that.  There would be circumstances where you

24     would not, but you would generally do that, yes.

25        Q.   Okay.  If we can turn to the next page of the document, I'd like

Page 14221

 1     to focus just on a few more comments, number 12, 13, and 14, if I could

 2     draw your attention there, sir.  And we have three members of the team,

 3     one medical examiner and two anthropologists, there giving some comments.

 4     And first of all, the first individual at number 12 says that she

 5     complains she was instructed how to list the cause of death by

 6     Dr. Kirschner.  Is that the type of misconduct that you said you did have

 7     knowledge of -- or complaints of misconduct, I should say?

 8        A.   Generally I believe that that was the major allegation, that the

 9     cause of death had been altered; but as I say, I wasn't involved in this

10     process and I only know it peripherally because it was dealt with by the

11     time I --

12        Q.   Started --

13        A.   -- attended The Hague.

14        Q.   Looking at number 13, we see in addition to the complaint that

15     Dr. Kirschner changed autopsy reports and instructed her to do so while

16     processing reports, it says:

17             "In the field, Dr. Haglund dictated too much speed in

18     exhumation."

19             Is that second complaint something that you were aware of as

20     having occurred in the exhumations that were conducted under the head of

21     Dr. Haglund?

22        A.   Your Honours, I don't recall that.

23        Q.   Fair enough.  Number 14.  I would like to direct your attention

24     to the part where this anthropologist says:

25             "Clothing was discarded at Haglund's command, even though some

Page 14222

 1     contained identification.  Forms were not always used."

 2             Were those complaints or criticisms that you were aware of

 3     relating to the work of the exhumations that had predated you?

 4        A.   No, I don't recall that.

 5        Q.   Do you recall, as part of the exhumations that you did

 6     participate in or were present for, how many bodies a day were exhumed on

 7     average?

 8        A.   Your Honours, that varied very significantly on the type of

 9     grave.  If it was an undisturbed grave, a primary undisturbed grave, it

10     might go very quickly.  If it was a secondary, disturbed -- a secondary

11     grave, sometimes it was very slow.  And sometimes they would uncover a

12     mass of bodies, as you saw in the Kozluk photograph, until they reached a

13     point where they could show the composition of the grave, and then they

14     would remove all those bodies fairly quickly because they were basically

15     ready for removal and left in that position to show the composition of

16     the grave and the relationship between the bodies.  It very much depended

17     on the type of grave and the type of bodies.

18        Q.   Thank you.  If we could turn to page 10 of this document.  Here,

19     sir, the committee is talking in detail about the unacceptable conduct of

20     Dr. Kirschner in regards to changing the manner of death and autopsies

21     that he himself did not perform, and the discussion is rather serious

22     including talk of losing one's licence or being dismissed, depending on

23     the jurisdiction that was involved.  Did you have occasion to learn of

24     such serious discussions about the consequences of Dr. Kirschner's work

25     as part of your employment with the Office of the Prosecutor?

Page 14223

 1        A.   Your Honours, I don't recall having read this document and I

 2     wasn't aware of those discussions.

 3        Q.   Okay.  If we can go to the next page, page 11.  Item number 8 on

 4     page 11 confirms that:

 5             "There was some validity to the charge of shifting and

 6     non-protection of the bones."

 7             Was that something that you were aware of when you commenced your

 8     work in the field?

 9        A.   No, and perhaps I'd need to read the rest of the document to see

10     the context.  I'm not sure what shifting and non-protection of the bones

11     means in this context, but I'm not aware of that.

12        Q.   If we can go to the next page, we have some guide-lines that were

13     suggested by this committee, this review committee, and they're supposed

14     to apply, I guess, for future work of this nature.  And I'd like to go

15     through about five or six with you.  I'd like to highlight number 2.

16             "Develop uniformity of protocols, diagrams, and abbreviations."

17             To your knowledge, was that recommendation implemented in the

18     subsequent investigations of exhumation sites that you participated in?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  Starting from my involvement with

20     Professor Wright, the forms that were used were generally pro formas,

21     including a space for diagrams for the layout of the bodies, et cetera,

22     in a similar vein at the mortuary, and they were amended as the

23     anthropologist or archaeologist in charge saw fit.  Predominantly the

24     same form was used over the entire period.

25        Q.   And looking at number 3 it says there there should be a standard

Page 14224

 1     UN death certificate.  Is that the form that you're talking about?

 2        A.   There was an autopsy report which detailed the examination of the

 3     body or the remains.  I think it's perhaps a mis-wording to say a death

 4     certificate because the ICTY OTP didn't issue a death certificate.  And

 5     as I understand the rules, it would have been issued by the Bosnian

 6     authorities.

 7        Q.   Well, that's --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What was the pro forma document?  Was that the

 9     report?

10             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, the pro forma document was a report

11     which detailed the autopsy of the individual or the body, so the medical

12     examination of the body or the remains was listed by each anthropologist

13     or forensic dentist or whomever on that form.  It included sections for

14     detailing cause of death, what type of examination was conducted,

15     artefacts located.  Generally it would have an image of a human skeleton

16     and the author would indicate which parts were perhaps missing or which

17     parts were damaged.  And generally that form stayed the same with minor

18     variations across the time I was involved in the process.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

20             Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   If we can look at items number 11 and 12 now.  It says:

23             "Develop a system of briefing incoming personnel and debriefing

24     outgoing personnel.  Use this as a basis for a good quality assurance

25     program."

Page 14225

 1             And number 12:

 2             "Develop a quality assurance program for all aspects of the

 3     investigation."

 4             Were these two recommendations implemented in the exhumation

 5     investigations that you participated?

 6        A.   Your Honours, I didn't brief incoming members of the relative

 7     experts' teams, but I know that occurred and, in fact, I was present as

 8     an observer when that occurred.  And I would also at the commencement of

 9     a mass grave examination, I would brief the whole team on the processes

10     that we expected and provide a limited amount of information about the

11     mass grave itself, conscious that I didn't want to put a position in

12     their mind beforehand, I would tell them where it was that we had

13     imagery, that we suspected it was connected to Srebrenica, et cetera.

14             As to outgoing interviews, I'm not sure -- I wasn't present when

15     that occurred.  I assume that occurred.

16             And I think your last point was quality assurance.  I think

17     that's a question for the chief anthropologist and archaeologist.  I

18     certainly took a role in examining the artefacts and the documentation

19     and reviewing that for inconsistencies at the level that I could.  I'm

20     not an anthropologist or an archaeologist.  And I believe that that

21     question should be answered by those experts.

22        Q.   Who was it that would collect all notes, photographs,

23     radiographs, and other materials from the autopsy?

24        A.   There were at the mortuary at Visoko generally a number of

25     scene -- crime scene officers, generally former or serving police

Page 14226

 1     officers.  They were responsible at the mortuary for collecting,

 2     retaining the physical evidence, which was secured at the mortuary.  At

 3     regular intervals, I would attend and spend several days to weeks

 4     examining that material, partly to link it to the investigation but also

 5     to decide what may need further investigation and what may need transport

 6     to The Hague.

 7        Q.   These crime scene officers that you have identified, were they

 8     also employees of the Office of the Prosecutor, such as yourself?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   I'd like to turn to page 13 of this document, item IV is another

11     recommendation by this review panel as to autopsies.  It says:

12             "Appoint an independent investigator who would be responsible for

13     initial work and who would report to the legal staff and, subsequently,

14     to an oversight group.  Collect all notes, photographs, radiographs and

15     other materials from the autopsy."

16             Can I take it from your previous answer that there was no

17     independent investigator, but rather the persons fulfilling this role

18     were all employees of the Office of the Prosecutor?

19        A.   I'd accept that, yes.

20        Q.   Was an independent investigator ever considered for this role, to

21     your knowledge, if you know?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   If we can look at item number V on this list.

24             "Oversight or review panel of experts (pathologists,

25     anthropologists, odontologists, criminal investigators or other experts

Page 14227

 1     deemed necessary).  These should not be involved in the incident."

 2             To your knowledge were any such recommendations implemented for

 3     the exhumations and/or autopsies investigations that you were a part of

 4     while at the Office of the Prosecutor?

 5        A.   No, I don't believe so, although specific examinations were

 6     tasked to outside experts, such as soil and watches, et cetera, but not

 7     an oversight individual or group.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this time I would tender 1D1114 as

10     the next exhibit in evidence.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Jeremy.

12             MR. JEREMY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No objection.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  1D1114 is admitted into evidence.  Maybe it please

14     be given an exhibit number, Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1114 receives number D329,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Now I'd like to move to some other areas relating to your

20     testimony.  I'd like to -- I'd like to discuss with you, sir, your

21     testimony from the Popovic case but it's separate from the testimony that

22     was tendered in this case.

23             MR. IVETIC:  So if we can have 65 ter number 1D1112 in e-court

24     and if we could turn to page 29 of the same in e-court, that should

25     correlate to transcript page 19018 of the underlying transcript.  And it

Page 14228

 1     is the bottom half of the page.

 2        Q.   And, sir, I'm starting at line 14 and I'll be reading into the

 3     record the questions and answers and you can follow along with me, and

 4     then I'll have some questions for you about this to see if we can

 5     understand this -- if we can confirm this section of your prior -- prior

 6     testimony.

 7             "Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Manning, please read that sentence as

 8     well.

 9             "A.  'The majority of information required to submit a detailed

10     report on the Srebrenica examinations' --"

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Exhumations.

12             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.

13        Q.    "-- exhumations, including a definitive MNI and number of mass

14     graves, is currently held by ICMP.'

15             "Do you wish me to continue?

16             "Q.  No.  We'll progress gradually.  I suppose you stand by this

17     statement made by you in November 2005, that is, two years ago.

18             "A.  Yes, I accept that that's a valid statement still.

19             "Q.  Thank you.  Mr. Manning, could you please read out the

20     following sentence to us, which is actually the continuation of the one

21     you've read out?

22             "A.  Your Honours --"

23             MR. IVETIC:  And then we have to go to the top of the next page.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could it be enlarged a little bit further.  Thank

25     you.

Page 14229

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2             "'Unfortunately, data held by the various BiH authorities, due to

 3     lack of resources or other factors, is widely [Realtime transcript read

 4     in error "wild"] spread across agencies and organisations and its

 5     accuracy is difficult to assess.'

 6             "Q.  Thank you.  Mr. Manning, would you agree with me that the

 7     data you had at your disposal in November 2005 were received from local

 8     authorities in Bosnia and that they were incomplete, not up-to-date, and

 9     difficult to rely upon?

10             "A.  No, I would not agree with that.  A significant amount of

11     the data I received was from ICMP, and the various parts of the Bosnia

12     Commission for Missing Persons, some of them records were in excellent

13     condition, some of the records were very detailed, some of the records

14     were perhaps not complete.  And also, given my inability to read the

15     language, it was inaccessible to me, given the time-frame.  If I'd have

16     had more time to read through the information, I could have made a more

17     appropriate assessment of its accuracy."

18        Q.   Now, first of all, sir, for this part that we have just gone

19     through, do you stand by this prior testimony as being both truthful and

20     accurate as to the matters raised therein?

21        A.   I do, Your Honours.

22        Q.   Now, this was at the time of the Popovic trial several years ago.

23     Have you now had more time to read through the information?  Have you

24     done that?

25        A.   No, I have not.

Page 14230

 1        Q.   Okay.  If we can -- if I can ask you, first of all, this Bosnian

 2     Commission for Missing Persons which is identified in here, am I correct

 3     that this is the organisation that at the time was chaired by a

 4     Mr. Amor Masovic?

 5        A.   That's correct, yes.

 6        Q.   And am I correct that a Mr. Jasmin Odobasic was an assistant

 7     under Mr. Masovic and perhaps later became head of that commission?

 8        A.   I'm not -- I'm not aware of that.  I had dealt with Mr. Masovic.

 9     And I may have met Mr. Odobasic --

10        Q.   Odobasic --

11        A.   -- but I don't recall.

12        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough, sir.

13             MR. IVETIC:  If we can turn to -- I apologise.  If we can turn to

14     page 35 in e-court which should correlate to transcript page 19024.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Jeremy.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, just before we move on to another

17     section, I just wanted to make a correction to the transcript.  Page 10,

18     line 23, currently reads "wild," and I think it should have been and I

19     heard Mr. Ivetic read "widely."  Line 23.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             Do you confirm, Mr. Ivetic?

22             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I do.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.

25             You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 14231

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Now I'd like to go through -- well, first of all, here the

 3     discussion is in relation to your preparation of summaries for the year

 4     2007 and the first part is -- well, let me just read it to you from

 5     lines 4 to 12, sir, and if you want you can follow along.

 6             "Q.  So when you were there on that special mission, you were not

 7     provided with confidential information, yet now you have told us that

 8     when preparing your summaries for the year 2007, in June and November,

 9     you had access to confidential information; is this correct?

10             "A.  To be clear, I indicated that I did not take copies of

11     confidential material, but I also believe I indicated that I was given

12     access to the material that I wished to view, including the DNA reports,

13     including the exhumation reports, and including the Tuzla Canton Court

14     files."

15             First of all, sir, do you stand by this answer as being truthful

16     and accurate, such that you would so answer again if the same question

17     were asked?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   At the time that this was going on and you were given access to

20     the confidential information, you were no longer employed by the Office

21     of the Prosecutor; is that correct?

22        A.   That's correct, it was a short-term mission.

23        Q.   Okay.  And do you know if the access given to you by the local

24     authorities to confidential information, was that documented by a formal

25     written request from the Tribunal or how did you gain access?

Page 14232

 1        A.   I believe there was a formal request made of ICMP and the Bosnian

 2     Commission, and on the basis of their acceptance of that, I travelled

 3     there and conducted the research.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now, would you agree with me that neither you nor others

 5     from the ICTY Prosecution were present for nor monitored the collection

 6     of so-called surface remains from the grave-sites that are identified in

 7     your various reports that we -- that were tendered yesterday?

 8        A.   I think you asked if we monitored the collection of surface

 9     remains from the grave-sites.  If you mean the ICTY exhumed grave-sites,

10     I don't think that's correct.  If you mean the additional Bosnian exhumed

11     grave-sites, again there's a distinction between a grave and surface

12     remains, but I can accept that we did not monitor the collection of

13     surface remains and -- except for one season, we did not monitor ICMP and

14     the Bosnian Commission's work.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now, would you agree with me that when -- when your

16     reports rely upon the MNI method of determining victims, that -- the

17     issue of surface remains does not enter into the equation?

18        A.   The use of the minimal number of individuals count by the

19     anthropologists was based on the remains inside the mass grave, not on

20     surface remains.

21        Q.   However, now that we've switched to the ICMP DNA identification

22     method, am I correct that these surface remains from these other

23     investigation efforts by the local authorities do come into the equation?

24        A.   Yes, they come into the equation and they would provide the total

25     number, but there is also indications within the data that shows that

Page 14233

 1     some were surface remains and some were removed from mass graves.

 2        Q.   I understand that, yeah.

 3             Would you agree with me that neither you nor anyone at the

 4     Prosecution can attest or speak to the procedures that were followed in

 5     the collection and preservation and chain of custody of the surface

 6     remains?

 7        A.   I examined that process during my 2005 mission, but only

 8     superficially, and I examined some of the records and some of the grid

 9     references but I didn't go into great detail about the surface remains.

10     I'm not sure if Mr. Janc has or if anyone else has.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'll be sure to check when he comes.

12             Now, did the ICTY do any investigations to determine whether

13     these surface remains dated for the same time-period as the graves

14     themselves, the mass graves?

15        A.   No, I don't believe so.

16        Q.   And one more question in relation to the ICMP DNA

17     identifications, I think you've already answered it but I'd like to flesh

18     it out.  Am I correct that for those exhumations of grave-sites that were

19     conducted by the Bosnian authorities, some of those bodies also come into

20     the figure from the ICMP DNA identification?

21        A.   Again, those results would add to the ICMP's total figure.  If

22     you're referring to my report from 2007, from memory, without checking

23     the report, the only surface remains or remains that I added from the

24     Bosnian Commission/ICMP work were from Godinjske Bare - pardon my

25     pronunciation - and from the area immediately adjacent to the Kozluk

Page 14234

 1     primary mass grave.  And I think the Godinjske burials were connected to

 2     the Skorpions video or what is known as the Skorpions video.

 3        Q.   Well, sir, perhaps if we can -- perhaps if we can turn to your

 4     2007 report just briefly.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  And I believe that should be number P1737 marked for

 6     identification.

 7        Q.   And if I can fresh your recollection, if we can perhaps turn

 8     to --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  If we can turn to the 15th page of the document

10     which -- one page back, actually.  I apologise.  So I guess it was the

11     14th page.

12        Q.   Sir, at the bottom of this page of your report as to the

13     Hodzici Road 6 - Snagovo 1 location, would you agree that here you have

14     an exhumation conducted by the Bosnian Commission alongside the ICMP

15     without the participation of the ICTY and you do have, at the end, a

16     recitation of the number of individuals that were identified by DNA from

17     this location?  Does that refresh your recollection as to whether these

18     figures are included in your 2007 report?

19        A.   Yes --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you give your answer, we should wait until

21     the correct page in B/C/S --

22             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- is loaded up on the screen.

24             MR. IVETIC:  I believe it should be the next page in the B/C/S --

25     strike that.  It's two pages further forward from the B/C/S.  One page

Page 14235

 1     back apparently.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's still not the correct one.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  That's still not the correct one.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The lower part should be that one which

 5     correlates to the upper part in English.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Except that we're at Hodzici Road 4, the --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you wanted to go to the --

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Next page --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- lower part -- next page in B/C/S.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That should make it.

12             MR. IVETIC:  There we go.  Thank you.

13        Q.   Sir, does this refresh your recollection as to whether the bodies

14     exhumed by the Bosnian Commission with ICMP and identified by ICMP

15     constitute a part of your 2007 report?

16        A.   Your Honours, now I understand.  Yes, that's the case.  And in

17     fact, for a number of graves on Hodzici Road, Lipje, Cancari, which were

18     all graves known to the ICTY, probed and tested by the ICTY, were exhumed

19     and DNA analysis conducted by ICMP without ICTY observations.  And I used

20     that data for my report, and in fact that was the reason for me attending

21     Bosnia was to gain that data and use in the report.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And now you say here "without ICTY

23     observations."  Yesterday you said you could tell looking at the

24     secondary graves whether the person -- persons that were buried in them

25     were part of sanitisation efforts or not based upon various features.

Page 14236

 1     For these particular graves alongside Hodzici Road and Cancari, are those

 2     secondary graves?

 3        A.   They are secondary, yes.

 4        Q.   So your testimony yesterday as to how you could exclude those

 5     from being graves for sanitisation of bodies would not apply to these

 6     graves; is that correct?

 7        A.   Your Honours, I believe it would.  These are secondary graves to

 8     the primary mass graves at Ovcara and they showed evidence of executions,

 9     witness testimony, blindfolds, et cetera.  So these graves are positively

10     linked to the primary graves, and I believe that shows that.  But also

11     remembering that these secondary graves were created in September and

12     October of 1995, well after the conflict had ended in that area.

13        Q.   Now, during your direct examination at transcript page 14157, you

14     said that the focus of the work of the Bosnian Commission and ICMP at the

15     graves was different from yours, and in essence I think you said that

16     the -- their primary motive for the exhumations was to remove the bodies,

17     to have them examined and identified.

18             If I can ask you, is this your position or opinion based upon the

19     information at your disposal about how the BiH Commission was conducting

20     its work?

21        A.   Yes, that was based on my understanding of their work and my

22     observations at the grave-sites that they were exhuming.  I visited a

23     number, not only when we monitored for one season but also thereafter.

24     And in discussions with ICMP and the Bosnian Commission, their primary

25     goal was to recover the bodies and have them identified.

Page 14237

 1        Q.   And am I correct in interpreting these words of yours to mean

 2     that the BiH authorities were not as focused nor careful to preserve and

 3     document other artefacts or evidence recovered from the graves, but

 4     rather were just focused on getting the remains out and identified as

 5     quickly as possible?

 6        A.   That was their focus.  However, I was aware that not only ICMP

 7     but the Bosnian Commission, if possible, would recover artefacts; if

 8     possible, would recover data from the mass graves.  And that the ICMP

 9     produced exhumation or examination reports from the graves in an attempt

10     to show how they were made, what artefacts may have been in them.  But

11     the primary focus was to get the bodies out.

12        Q.   Do you believe, sir, that this methodology employed by the BiH

13     Commission as to the exhumations leads to less diligence in following

14     standard protocols and procedures for documenting the evidence and

15     preserving the evidence from potential contamination?

16        A.   Perhaps that's not a question for me, but their focus was not to

17     collect evidence.  Their focus was to remove the bodies.  As I say, that

18     may be a question for someone else.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, for the next several questions, I

21     believe we need to move into private session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14238











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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 14245

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 2             Mr. Manning, we'll take a break for 20 minutes and we'll come

 3     back a little later at 10 to.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you please follow the usher.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And we take a break and come back at 10 to 11.00.

 8     Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please be escorted into the

12     courtroom.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             Yes, Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Sir, I'd like to re-visit one other thing from your prior

18     testimony in the Popovic case at this time.

19             MR. IVETIC:  If we can have 65 ter number 1D1111 in e-court.  It

20     should be page 55 of the same, and it should be the last two lines and it

21     will be bleeding on to the next page, the first four lines of the next

22     page.

23        Q.   Sir, again, please feel free to follow along with me beginning at

24     line 24.

25             "Q.  Okay.  And, generally, how were you able to tell that the

Page 14246

 1     bodies were from 1995 and not from some other time?"

 2             And if we can go to the next page and zoom in on lines 1

 3     through 4.

 4             "A.  We, of course, relied on the creation date of the mass

 5     grave, that the graves had been created in July of 1995, or had been

 6     created thereafter in September and October 1995.  So they couldn't

 7     pre-date 1995, in July."

 8             Do you stand by this part of your prior testimony as being

 9     truthful and accurate, sir?

10        A.   I do, yes.

11        Q.   Now, would you agree with me that this approach that you utilise

12     is an assumption, that basically all the secondary graves that you

13     identify as coming into existence in September and October of 1995 are

14     actually filled with the remains or bodies from graves that were dated

15     from July 1995?  Isn't that correct?

16        A.   Your Honours, I don't believe it's an assumption.  It was a fact

17     as to their creation dates.  We still on the opening of every grave

18     sought to prove or disprove that that grave was connected to Srebrenica.

19     We approached it with an open mind looking for that confirmation or not.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And that confirmation is found in the next

21     paragraph of your testimony, where you further explain identifying items

22     that you found on the bodies.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I see that my transcript is not

25     working.  Is the main transcript working?

Page 14247

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you have to do a few exercises.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Oh, understood.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Connect again because it was disconnected for a

 4     while.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  No problem.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. IVETIC:  If we can perhaps -- to be fair to the witness and

 8     to have the record full, I can also read the following two paragraphs

 9     that are the continuation of the answer.

10        Q.   Quote from line 5:

11             "We also -- we also looked at identification material found

12     amongst the bodies.  We would find identifications indicating the

13     individuals were from Srebrenica, and often we could find those

14     identifications indicating the persons were recorded as missing from

15     Srebrenica in the ICRC Book of the Missing.

16             "There were also other links which indicated a strong connection

17     to Srebrenica, and therefore the time, including Dutch newspapers from

18     1995, Dutch medical military rations, Dutch artifacts, as well as

19     artifacts which linked individuals to Srebrenica itself or to Potocari."

20             Sir, does this full answer that I've now read -- first of all, is

21     it truthful and accurate?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   And does that complete your answer as to how -- as to why you

24     believe that the working thesis that the bodies could not predate

25     July of 1995 is not an assumption, in your view?

Page 14248

 1        A.   Yes, and backed up by the subsequent DNA analysis.

 2        Q.   Did you - and by "you," I mean you or other personnel at the

 3     Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal - do any investigations to

 4     determine if, in fact, this thesis, which I call an assumption, was true,

 5     that none of the bodies in the secondary graves could have predated

 6     July of 1995?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could I seek clarification?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You started your questioning with quoting the

10     witness, where you said:

11             "We ... relied on the creation date of the mass grave, that the

12     graves had been created in July of 1995, or had been created thereafter

13     in September and October 1995.  So they couldn't predate 1995 ..."

14             Now, that is about graves and mass graves.  You're now talking

15     about no person possibly being in one of these graves, a person, if I

16     take it, which died before July 1995.

17             Now, the -- I'm just trying to follow you.  If you find a person

18     in a grave who is reported as still being alive in July and then went

19     missing and then ends up in that grave, that would -- that's at least my

20     logic but please explore with the witness whether I'm wrong, that would

21     suggest that at least that grave was filled up with at least that person

22     and perhaps more persons who died in or after mid-July 1995.

23             Now, the question of whether there may have been a body of a

24     person who died earlier is a different question.  Whether another

25     person -- whether that grave existed already before July 1995 and then

Page 14249

 1     was filled up with persons who died in July 1995, persons in a grave and

 2     the creation of a grave are two different questions.  If you would --

 3     that's at least my understanding.  And you started with the graves and

 4     you ended up with bodies --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Perhaps, Your Honours, if we can go to the previous

 6     page of the document, the beginning of the question that I quoted talks

 7     about bodies, and that might be the confusion Your Honours have, lines 24

 8     and 25 of the prior page of the transcript which is where I began

 9     reading.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me have a look and that is at --

11             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, that's at page 55, lines 24 through 25.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and you read it -- well, there he says "often,"

13     isn't it?

14             MR. IVETIC:  Other time --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm trying to find it in our transcript where you

16     put it to the witness.  Yes, let me see.  You read to the witness --

17             MR. IVETIC:  I read at page -- I apologise, it should be at

18     page 27, line 8, is where I begin.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  27, line 8 --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You began at line 24 -- oh, I beg your pardon.

21             MR. IVETIC:  I'm talking about now, today's transcript.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.

23             MR. IVETIC:  It is line 24 of the document which is 1D1111.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that the question is:

Page 14250

 1             "And, generally, were you able to tell that the bodies were from

 2     1995 and not from some other time?"

 3             And then the witness said something about the graves, so there is

 4     some disparity in question and answer and that's perhaps exactly what I

 5     was referring to.  And you then finally -- "whether any investigations

 6     were done to determine if, in fact, this thesis, which I call an

 7     assumption, was true that none of the bodies in the secondary" -- you now

 8     turn to the negative.  It's logically not concluded.  No reason not to

 9     further explore the matter, but I'm just pointing at the -- at the

10     analytical flaws in the, perhaps, line of questioning and answers

11     previous case, this case, so that it becomes clear at least now.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If I may proceed?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:

15        Q.   Sir, can you tell us, did you do - I say "you," yourself and the

16     Office of the Prosecutor - any investigations to determine if any bodies

17     that predated July of 1995 could have potentially have been buried in the

18     secondary graves that were dug in September and October of 1995?

19        A.   Firstly, Your Honours, we examined each body removed from the

20     grave with that view.  Not only was the first body or the 100th body

21     connected to Srebrenica, we would look for that evidence.  And there were

22     investigations undertaken by the Srebrenica team, such as interviewing

23     witnesses and suspects, including the men who drove the buses and

24     backhoes and machinery that created the graves to try and establish if

25     those bodies were from Srebrenica when they were created.  We looked at

Page 14251

 1     vehicle logs, et cetera.  So there were investigations around that issue

 2     as to when the graves were created and who was in the graves.  I don't

 3     recall any information that indicated there was someone from a previous

 4     era in any of the graves.  That may have changed since I left.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Sir, we have evidence in this case, in

 6     particular transcript page 11481 through 11482, from Witness RM306 who

 7     testified that a communal grave of 100 to 150 bodies dating from 1992 and

 8     buried in a communal grave at Bratunac in 1992 after an investigation

 9     involving a forensic pathologist, that these graves were dug up by

10     Mr. Momir Nikolic in autumn of 1995 and that this information was

11     communicated to your predecessor, Mr. Jean Rene Ruez.

12             Did you know about that, sir?

13        A.   I don't recall that.  I may have heard that allegation.  I don't

14     recall.

15        Q.   Well, sir, if true, wouldn't this basically be something that

16     would need to take into account in relation to the accuracy of your

17     working thesis, which I call an assumption?

18        A.   Your Honours, I don't recall that allegation, as I said, and I

19     don't know if that allegation was investigated.  I don't recall it.

20        Q.   As you sit here today as a witness, can you exclude 100 per cent

21     the possibility that at least 100 to 150 bodies from 1992 were reburied

22     in one of the secondary mass graves dating from September and October of

23     1995?

24        A.   From my knowledge of the exhumation and autopsy process, I

25     believe that could be excluded.  I don't believe that's the case.  And if

Page 14252

 1     that was the case, those records would be definitively shown by the DNA

 2     analysis.

 3        Q.   Now, I want to ask you if you have any knowledge or information

 4     of a process known as "asanacija" or sanitisation which was prescribed

 5     under the laws of the former SFRY and employed by all three sides to the

 6     conflict?

 7        A.   I'm aware of that process.

 8        Q.   And in relation to "asanacija," or the removing of dead carcasses

 9     of animals, ordnance, and bodies of killed combatants from the terrain so

10     as to dispose or bury the same, would that process, if you know, include

11     cloth, fabrics or clothing found in the battle-field?

12        A.   If you're asking me would cloth and clothing be collected, I

13     don't know if I can answer that.  My understanding of "asanacija" is the

14     removal predominantly of human remains or the burial of human remains as

15     a sanitary measure.  Would they collect their clothing that was on the

16     bodies?  I assume so.  I don't know.

17        Q.   Now, sir, in relation to battle-field casualties of the Bosnian

18     Muslim column that departed from Srebrenica in July of 1995, there are

19     various sources that indicate that up to 3.000 column members were killed

20     in combat or by going through minefields.  There is a UN

21     Secretary-General's report dated 15 November 1999 based upon interviews

22     with survivors of the column.  There is also a 17 July 1995 report of the

23     UN Civil Protection Affairs Office that also quotes a figure of up to

24     3.000 members of the Bosnian Muslim column that had become deceased as a

25     result of combat or mines.  Did your investigation offer any insight as

Page 14253

 1     to the number of combat and mine-related casualties suffered by the

 2     Bosnian Muslim column that was leaving Srebrenica and attempting to break

 3     through to Muslim territory in Tuzla?

 4        A.   I was not directly involved in that aspect.  That was mainly the

 5     military analyst -- analyst on the team.  I did take statements from

 6     individuals about that process.  I was generally aware of it.  I can't at

 7     this stage give you the numbers that may have been killed in the column,

 8     but I accept that there was fighting, and in some cases I understand

 9     quite violent fighting, and that a number of individuals were killed,

10     which may be reflected in the collection of surface remains by ICMP and

11     the Bosnian Commission.

12        Q.   Now, Richard Butler in the Popovic trial at transcript page 20251

13     conceded that 1.000 to 2.000 dead from combat engagements by the column

14     was reasonable.  Is that individual the military analyst that you have

15     just identified in your answer at lines 12 and 13 of today's transcript?

16        A.   Yes, he is, amongst others.  And I would accept that figure from

17     Mr. Butler.

18        Q.   Now, Dusan Janc - you've mentioned him a couple times in your

19     testimony - during the Popovic trial at transcript pages 33543 to 33545

20     said that he could not exclude the possibility that other bodies were

21     buried at secondary graves in addition to murder victims.  Do you dispute

22     that?

23        A.   I wasn't here to hear his testimony.  My belief is that we did

24     not have evidence of that, and I note that Mr. Janc has been working on

25     that -- on the DNA since I've left and I can't comment on his evidence.

Page 14254

 1        Q.   You say that he's been working on it since you left.  Do you know

 2     of a -- of -- have you had knowledge of his report that was authored, I

 3     believe, in 2009?  Have you had a chance to become familiar with that?

 4        A.   I read a report from Dusan in perhaps 2007.  I don't believe I've

 5     read one since.  I haven't kept up with the investigation.

 6        Q.   Did the report of Mr. Janc that you read indicate that only

 7     6 per cent of secondary grave corpses could be matched by DNA to primary

 8     graves?

 9        A.   I don't recall that.  I would be very surprised.

10        Q.   Now, if we can --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- you're putting reports to the witness.  Do we

12     have them in evidence or not?

13             MR. IVETIC:  We don't yet.  Mr. Janc is, I believe, scheduled to

14     be a forthcoming witness in this case.  He has not testified yet in this

15     proceeding.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Because to understand fully what he means by only

17     6 per cent of secondary grave corpses could be matched by DNA to primary

18     graves, which -- what -- in the context of that report, I take it that an

19     explanation will be given.  It would mean, may I take it, that in

20     6 per cent of the cases that bodily remains were found in the primary

21     graves, where bodily remains with the same DNA were found in the

22     secondary graves.  So every body which is fully transported from the

23     primary grave to the secondary grave --

24             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which is -- so therefore, I'm just thinking about

Page 14255

 1     whether there is any suggestion in your question that the bodies cannot

 2     be linked or is it just by the DNA.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  The way I'm reading the report is the exact same way

 4     as Your Honour has just summarised.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that means that for 6 per cent of --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  -- dissociated bodies --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- dissociated -- that it could be linked, and of

 8     course it's the position of the Defence that if the body is not

 9     dissociated, that you would not -- no, let me say, if the body is

10     complete and if it would be completely transported from the primary grave

11     to the secondary grave, you would not find any DNA support for that

12     operation, no linkage in that respect.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Correct, correct.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear to me and now -- perhaps it was clear

15     to everyone already, but it's clear to me now as well.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  And I did not want to bring Mr. Janc's

17     report because I know it was in 2009 and that's why I first asked the

18     witness if he reviewed it and that's why I wanted to see if -- which

19     report he's talking about, if it was the same one or not, and I can't

20     tell so --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, of course, the discussion will be whether

22     6 per cent is much or little.

23             MR. IVETIC:  We'll have many discussions, I'm sure, on that

24     topic --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is the issue which will then need to be

Page 14256

 1     discussed.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             If we can briefly pull up P1481, page 7.  And if I've done my

 6     counting of the pages right, that should be the map which we had

 7     yesterday in hard copy that I don't know if everyone still has.  And if

 8     the witness needs a copy, he can have -- with the help of the usher, if

 9     we could have the witness be given the copy that Madam Stewart is

10     offering.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

13             MR. IVETIC:

14        Q.   Now, sir, this is the map you talked about yesterday that I

15     believe you had created in relation to the secondary graves, and one I --

16     one question I wanted to ask you about this is:  Looking at the secondary

17     graves, especially the ones that are alongside the road, which I believe

18     would be the Hodzici mass grave sites, based upon the information, the

19     totality of the information, that you and the Office of the Prosecutor

20     had at your disposal about the movements of the 5th column -- pardon me,

21     not the 5th column, the column of Bosnian men from Srebrenica, would you

22     agree with me that all of these secondary graves are located 5 kilometres

23     or closer from the sites of reported and known combat engagements of that

24     column of Bosnian males?

25        A.   I'm sorry, I can't say that.  I would have to check the records,

Page 14257

 1     and as I say, I wasn't heavily involved in the investigation of the

 2     column and its path.  But I would have to check that.

 3        Q.   I know that, sir.  But yesterday I believe you testified that

 4     these were all far away from battle-fields.  So I'm trying to understand

 5     the basis of your testimony yesterday.

 6        A.   And, Your Honours, I was asked if it was 5 kilometres.  I can't

 7     confirm that.  To my knowledge and having been there, there was no sign

 8     of any battle within the area, particularly along Hodzici Road.  It's

 9     completely -- or was completely abandoned and in a remote location.

10        Q.   Okay.  Now I'd like to -- well, I don't want to go through all of

11     your reports, so maybe I'll just deal with one.

12             MR. IVETIC:  So if we can pull up P1738 MFI, a 2003 report.

13        Q.   And while we wait for that, I would like to ask you a general

14     question.  Can we agree that the material that's contained in your

15     reports at all times is simply reciting or summarising what you believe

16     the results of the experts and others who examined materials were

17     reporting?

18        A.   Your Honours, that's not correct.  Yes, I examined the expert

19     reports.  I took data from those expert reports.  But as I said

20     yesterday, because the project was so long and was involving a number of

21     personnel, some of the reports from the experts did not cover the whole

22     period, they did not cover the developments within the investigations.

23             I examined the autopsy reports.  I examined the blindfolds and

24     ligatures, the physical artefacts, the connections, the identifications.

25     And I checked each and every fact within the expert reports and sought to

Page 14258

 1     confirm if we did, indeed, have autopsy reports which indicated a cause

 2     of death in agreement with that expert report.  But as I said yesterday,

 3     in examining the blindfolds and ligatures, for instance, I did that work

 4     and that is reported in my reports, and that is work that I produced and

 5     that reflects the examination of the total material available to us from

 6     exhumations over a significant period of time.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  If we can turn to page 3 of the English, page 4 of

 8     the B/C/S or Serbian.

 9        Q.   And there at the top in the English and it's at the top in the

10     B/C/S we have the cause of death that you have just, I believe, mentioned

11     in your answer.  And I want to ask you in terms of these cases here, is

12     this related only to those bodies identified by DNA or is it also in

13     relation to the other bodies that were exhumed and that are identified as

14     unique DNA signatures whose actual name and date of birth have not been

15     identified, if you can follow that?

16        A.   I think you may have to ask the question again.

17        Q.   Let me ask it this way.

18             The statistics contained in this section of your report, do they

19     relate to the entirety of bodies that were identified as having a unique

20     DNA signature, including those for whom the DNA testing has not yet

21     determined their actual name and identity?

22        A.   Your Honours, at this stage of the investigation, the DNA results

23     were not available predominantly, and these figures represent the

24     examination of the bodies at the mortuary and the findings of the

25     pathologist.  It's not an examination of the DNA of those individuals or

Page 14259

 1     their uniqueness.  And in that time, the minimal number of individuals

 2     count was performed by Mr. Baraybar.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now, as to those that are listed as having died of

 4     undetermined cause, can you please tell me, if you know, what was the --

 5     what was the standard procedure under the law in the former Yugoslavia

 6     for cases where there was a determination of an undetermined cause of

 7     death?

 8        A.   I don't know that law from the former Yugoslavia.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But could I then ask the following.

11             The cause of death as presented here, was that the cause of death

12     as established under the law of the former Yugoslavia or was it a finding

13     of the investigation's?

14             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, it was a finding by the chief

15     pathologist and anthropologist based on an examination of the remains.

16     So they were presenting a cause of death of the remains that they're able

17     to examine.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And if you say "chief pathologist," you are

19     referring to ...?

20             THE WITNESS:  Dr. John Clark and Dr. Chris Lawrence and also the

21     anthropologist Jose Pablo Baraybar.  So these figures represent the

22     results of the autopsy process and their understanding as to why those

23     individuals or those parts of those individuals were killed.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 14260

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   You've mentioned the chief pathologist, you've mentioned

 3     Dr. Clark, Dr. Lawrence, and anthropologist Baraybar.  Just -- least we

 4     forget, am I correct that Dr. William Kirschner was also chief

 5     pathologist for some of these?

 6        A.   Yes, and I would also indicate Professor Haglund or Dr. Haglund.

 7        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Now, as to the remaining statistics that you

 8     give, I see that the vast majority are confirmed and -- as probably

 9     gun-shots and also actual gun-shots and then blast injuries is also a

10     category for which both probable and ascertained are the bulk of the

11     statistics.  Now, did your investigation consider at all the possibility

12     that certain persons who became deceased as a result of these two causes

13     became deceased as part of the column of Srebrenica males attempting to

14     break through the Serb lines through Tuzla?

15        A.   That possibility was considered, and I had many conversations

16     with the experts in relation to the cause of death and how they could

17     ascertain that.  It was considered.

18        Q.   And now what about considering the possibility that certain

19     persons came to be deceased as the result of suicide, whether by

20     fire-arms or by grenade, rather than to end up being captured by the

21     Serbs.  Did your research and investigation take into account that

22     possibility?

23        A.   Again, that was considered in terms of how the individuals died.

24     Was it suicide or were they, in fact, shot.  And as I say, I had

25     discussions with the experts about how the individuals were killed, how

Page 14261

 1     they could show that, and what that told them.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now I want to put something to you and see what you say to

 3     that.  I put it to you, sir, that people wishing to exploit battle-field

 4     "asanacija" or sanitisation actions that occurred in the weeks and months

 5     following the fighting may have placed the remains of execution victims

 6     taken from primary graves in these graves that were meant for

 7     battle-field casualties.  Can you exclude that possibility 100 per cent

 8     in your view?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Ivetic, are you asking the witness to

10     exclude a possibility or are you putting what you -- an assertion to him?

11             MR. IVETIC:  I'm putting an assertion.  That's my assertion.

12        Q.   Do you agree with the possibility of that assertion, sir?

13        A.   No, I don't agree with that.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, let me ask you this, sir:  On the territory of

15     Zvornik and Bratunac municipalities, did you - and, again, when I say

16     "you," I don't mean you personally, I mean yourself along with other

17     personnel from the Office of the Prosecutor --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, I'm going to have to take you back to

19     that question, Mr. --

20             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said -- you call it an assertion, but you say

22     "may have placed," that cannot be an assertion.  There's still a

23     possibility.

24             MR. IVETIC:  I meant to say "placed," Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You meant to say "placed."

Page 14262

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Placed.  As part of my assertion to the witness that

 2     persons did, in fact, place execution victims from the primary mass

 3     graves in graves that also had battle-field casualties that were

 4     collected --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you're correcting that part.

 6             MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   And, sir, the question I now have for you is:  Isn't it correct

10     that you - that is, yourself and other personnel from the Office of the

11     Prosecutor - in fact, did a fairly diligent and comprehensive

12     investigation to scour the terrain of both Zvornik and Bratunac, looking

13     for any possible mass graves that could exist?

14        A.   We did look for mass graves.  We used the aerial imagery.  We

15     were trying to find any other mass graves, particularly obviously

16     connected to Srebrenica.

17        Q.   And as part of that process, did you not also interview persons

18     that would have been involved in the "asanacija" or sanitisation

19     activities, such as grave diggers, public sanitation, or civil protection

20     departments and the like?

21        A.   No, we interviewed individuals who were involved in the creation

22     of the primary mass graves and the creation of the secondary mass graves

23     who transported the bodies that they had dug up and placed them in those

24     graves.

25        Q.   Now, sir, would you agree with me that those bodies that would

Page 14263

 1     have been the result of battle-field casualties and that would have been,

 2     therefore, the subject of sanitisation activities, whatever their number,

 3     I'm not now talking about the numbers, whatever their number, they would

 4     have to have been buried somewhere?  They don't just evaporate into thin

 5     air.  Am I right?

 6        A.   I believe - and I'm conscious that I didn't directly investigate

 7     the matter at length - I believe that the majority of the individuals

 8     killed in the battle and in the column were left to decompose, and

 9     eventually they were collected by the Bosnian Commission for Missing

10     Persons.  I do not recall seeing evidence of a large-scale or systematic

11     recovery of the bodies by Serb authorities.

12        Q.   Let me ask you a different question.  Did you find any graves

13     that would have been sanitisation graves, distinct and apart from the

14     graves that you did find that you say are all related to execution

15     victims?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And how would the sanitisation graves be

17     identifiable, Mr. Ivetic?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Those having bodies that were not victims of

19     executions that would have been dug by sanitisation personnel.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What I'm saying is when you find a grave there,

21     how do you determine that this is a sanitisation grave?

22             MR. IVETIC:  By doing investigations.  So if after the

23     investigations did they determine that any graves that they had located

24     were sanitisation graves.  I apologise, Your Honour.  Thank you for

25     correcting me in that.

Page 14264

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 3             THE WITNESS:  No, we did not and the graves that we examined and

 4     exhumed were found to be connected to Srebrenica and the execution of the

 5     individuals.

 6             MR. IVETIC:

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question in this context?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you believed that combat casualties would

11     just have been left and not -- sanitation would not have probably taken

12     place, which would result in, I take it, bodily remains to be found

13     wherever, not necessarily in graves.  Do you have any knowledge about

14     the -- if I could say the incidental bodies found here and there as a

15     result of non-sanitised combat casualties?

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I was aware that remains were

17     collected by the Bosnian Commission over several years, and in 2005 when

18     I examined their records and went to their offices, they provided me

19     details of the number of bodies that they had collected and the very

20     broad areas that they had collected them.  They would travel through the

21     woods, through the areas of the column, and collect either individual

22     skeletons or more probably parts of individuals that had been scavenged

23     by animals.  And they would collect those remains up and they would be

24     termed as surface remains.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And are there records of that -- I'm perhaps

Page 14265

 1     not only looking in your direction, Mr. Witness, but also partly to

 2     Mr. Jeremy, Mr. Groome.  Are there records of the numbers of bodies found

 3     not necessarily in graves?

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, there are, Your Honours, particularly in the

 5     2007 report of Mr. Manning.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah, thank you.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   And the 2007 report, sir, with respect to these so-called surface

10     remains, aren't most of them at or near the secondary grave sites that

11     were exhumed by the BiH Commission?

12        A.   No, that's not correct.

13        Q.   Now, we had a witness that testified about Bratunac, RM306, and

14     in relation to the so-called Glogova mass grave on that territory.  And

15     he confirmed at transcript pages 11452 to 11453 that bodies that were

16     recovered by the civil protection staff as part of sanitisation that were

17     found at -- along the roadway were, in fact, buried at Glogova alongside

18     those persons deceased in Kravica and other locations.  Is that something

19     that you knew as part of your investigation?

20        A.   No, I wasn't aware of that.  I understand since I've left that

21     there's been some developments in where -- in relation to Glogova, and I

22     do recall grave L of Glogova which is probably a separate incident to

23     Kravica but connected to Srebrenica and an execution.  But I haven't kept

24     up with the investigations since I left.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now, we've also had several witnesses at this trial,

Page 14266

 1     Bosnian Muslim males, who were part of the column who have testified

 2     about casualties inflicted on the column by Serb troops during the

 3     attempted break through, including the use of shelling and fire-arms;

 4     those would be RM253 and RM254.  We have also had evidence from some of

 5     the same witnesses that persons were committing suicide, including by the

 6     use of hand-grenades and also by the instance of family members shooting

 7     each other simultaneously.  Did you come across such information as part

 8     of your investigative work?

 9        A.   Yes, Your Honours, and I recall reading such statements.

10        Q.   And would you agree with me, forensically speaking, at the

11     autopsy table one cannot exclude or differentiate the damage caused by

12     these battle-field casualties or the suicides from the deaths caused by

13     execution, I'm talking about the damage to the remains, physical damage?

14        A.   Your Honours, I'm conscious that I'm not a forensic expert,

15     pathologist.  From my experience in investigations, hopefully you could

16     tell that to a degree depending on circumstances.  If the individuals

17     were standing together and opened a grenade, the injuries would be

18     different than having one thrown at them.  If they were shot in the head

19     with a blindfold, that would be an indication of an execution.  But there

20     are, I'm sure, instances where you could not tell the difference.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question in the same --

23             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, sir.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- area.  We have a large number of individuals died

25     of undetermined causes.  Now, are ligatures and blindfolds found also on

Page 14267

 1     those persons for whom the cause of death could not be determined?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I'd specifically have to check, but

 3     yes, I think that is the case.  And to give you an example, there may be

 4     an arm recovered with a ligature placed around the wrists.  Now, the rest

 5     of the body is missing, particularly given the period of this report.  So

 6     you have a dissociated human arm with a ligature around the wrist, and

 7     the rest of the body is not present.  Therefore, they could not establish

 8     a cause of death of that individual; however, there is a strong

 9     indication that that person has been executed or at least bound before

10     they were killed.  And later on in the process you may discover,

11     particularly through DNA, that the rest of that body is in a secondary

12     grave.  You could then - and I have seen them do this at the Bosnian

13     Commission - you physically put the arm back with the body and you now

14     have an individual who was perhaps killed and executed and you have the

15     ligature attached to that body now.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Now, let me follow-up on Your Honour's question.  We see here

18     several thousand individuals in total from these various causes of death

19     and the question was about ligatures.

20             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to call up P1735 MFI and turn to page 4 in

21     the English and 4 in the B/C/S.

22        Q.   This is something that you went through yesterday, I believe, in

23     direct examination and that I believe you indicated that you had prepared

24     based upon your own work.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Again, it's P1735 MFI.  And it will be page 4 of

Page 14268

 1     that exhibit or, excuse me, MFI'd exhibit.  I apologise, it's my mistake.

 2     P1734.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document is a one-page

 4     document.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Then let's have the first page -- the one page.

 6        Q.   Sir, if we -- yeah, this is I think the one.  If we look at this,

 7     is it -- these are the numbers you talked about yesterday, I believe.

 8     440 approximately -- 448 blindfolds that you could conclude conclusively

 9     were found in the graves.  Am I correct that your further investigation

10     found that approximately 298 were, in fact, attached either around the

11     head or the face?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Okay.  And as to the ligatures, we see here the number 425, that

14     would be the total number that you conclusively confirmed could be linked

15     to the graves?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  423.

17             MR. IVETIC: [Indiscernible]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  423.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Oh, I apologise, 423.

20        Q.   And am I correct, then, that the column indicates that 327 of

21     those would have been discovered attached to wrists or arms of remains?

22        A.   That is correct, yes.

23        Q.   Now, if we can --

24             MR. IVETIC:  If we can turn to P1735 MFI, page 4.

25        Q.   And if we look at item number 2 from the exhumation events in

Page 14269

 1     2000, we have in this particular grave a determination of a minimum

 2     number of 17 individuals being buried therein.  It is reported eight of

 3     the 17 had blindfolds and 32 additional blindfolds were found loose in

 4     the grave.  Would these 32 additional blindfolds that could not be linked

 5     to these 17 bodies be included in the total figures for blindfolds that

 6     we just went through on your chart?

 7        A.   Yes, I believe that's a summary of the table that across all the

 8     graves 117 were found loose in the graves.

 9        Q.   And that would mean that 117 of the 442 or 48 -- 140-something

10     would have been found loose in various of the graves?

11        A.   Yes, I believe that's correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Now, let's turn to page 7 in both versions of this

14     document that we have in e-court, P1735 MFI.

15        Q.   And if we look at -- if we look at the entry under blindfolds

16     that's for 4th April, 1996, it talks about certain blindfolds that

17     appeared similar to those found in graves but that were found outside of

18     the graves at a dump site and the investigators did not retain these.

19     Why was the decision made not to preserve these blindfolds that were

20     found outside of the grave for which -- I don't know whether it's you or

21     someone else has made the determination that they were substantially

22     similar to the ones found in the graves?  Who made the decision not to

23     preserve this evidence?

24        A.   Your Honours, I wasn't with the OTP at that stage.  I'm aware

25     that team leader Jean Rene Ruez located those items.  He filmed and

Page 14270

 1     videotaped them.  It was in late -- it was in early 1996, and I

 2     understand from speaking with Mr. Ruez why he didn't retain those items.

 3     He retained a small number from Grbavci school, but he didn't retain the

 4     rest of them.

 5        Q.   Well, sir, I think we're getting ahead of ourselves.  I believe

 6     Grbavci school is the 11th April, 1996, the following paragraph, where it

 7     does say that a representative sample of 12 blindfolds was taken.  Are

 8     you linking these two events separated by seven days as being the same,

 9     or was Mr. Ruez talking about both or one?

10        A.   He was talking about the same issue.  The Grbavci school and the

11     Orahovac primary execution points are linked and he explained to me the

12     location of those blindfolds at the Grbavci school and also at the

13     rubbish dump at Orahovac.

14        Q.   Now, you -- the opinions stated in this report that they were

15     similar or indistinguishable from those found in the graves, whose

16     opinion or assertation is that which you are reporting in your report?

17        A.   To a degree it is Dr. Maljaars, Suzi Maljaars from the

18     Netherlands Forensic Institute.  It also represents the comments by the

19     chief pathologist and archeologist.  And Dr. Maljaars examined those

20     blindfolds and established links.  And it also is my opinion from an

21     examination of those items which are represented in photographs of each

22     of the items.

23        Q.   If we could turn to page 10 of this document, you indicated that

24     Ms. Maljaars was the source for some of that.  And at page 10, as to

25     blindfolds you'll see for the -- let me just read the passage for you.

Page 14271

 1     It says:

 2             "The blindfolds recovered from the Lazete 2C site have not been

 3     examined by the Netherlands Forensic Institute.  However, the vast

 4     majority of the blindfolds located within the grave are indistinguishable

 5     from those located in the Lazete 2A & B, Lazete 1, and the related

 6     secondary sites of Hodzici Road 3, Hodzici Road 4, and Hodzici Road 5."

 7             In relation to these blindfolds that are identified in this

 8     paragraph, am I correct you could not have relied upon Ms. Maljaars?

 9        A.   Your Honours, I indicated that Ms. Maljaars was part of that

10     reliance.  From the other experts, chief anthropologist, archaeologist,

11     and from my own examination.

12        Q.   And which one is this?  Is this from your own examination or is

13     it from relying upon one of the experts?

14        A.   All of those.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now, in relation to your reports, you summarise in some of

16     them the findings of soil and pollen experts.  Were those soil and pollen

17     expert reports sought by the Prosecution for purposes of being used in

18     trials at the Tribunal?

19        A.   Yes, and it was one expert, Dr. Anthony Brown.

20        Q.   And he was a professor; is that correct?

21        A.   A professor from Exeter University, if memory serves me.

22        Q.   That's correct, I think.  And your report also cites the results

23     of blood and tissue testing done by the United States Naval Criminal

24     Investigation Service, or NCIS.  Were those expert reports sought by the

25     Prosecution from the NCIS for purposes of using the same at trial before

Page 14272

 1     the Tribunal?

 2        A.   Yes, they were sought.  I don't recall that being the reason they

 3     examined the sites because it was very early on, but they did seek the

 4     report or reports.

 5        Q.   And your reports also mention a review by explosives experts.

 6     Were those reports sought by the Prosecution for purposes of using them

 7     at these trials here at the Tribunal?

 8        A.   Yes, I believe so.

 9        Q.   And I want to ask you, sir, in relation to the soil and pollen,

10     the blood and tissue, and the explosives testing that we've just gone

11     through, did you personally participate in any of the testing or was that

12     all done by these other entities or persons whom we have just now

13     identified in the last couple of minutes?

14        A.   Your Honours, the explosive residue and blood examinations, those

15     samples were collected prior to my arrival at the Tribunal.  I did assist

16     the Netherlands Forensic Institute in providing those samples and

17     returning those samples and I did review their reports.  In a similar

18     fashion Dr. Brown's reports were reviewed by myself and I, on occasion,

19     would accompany Dr. Brown to various sites and was present when he took

20     his samples, and I spoke to him about his results.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, are we at the time for the break?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed we are.

24             Mr. Manning, you may follow the usher.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 14273

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Take a break.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Take a break of 20 minutes or come back at quarter

 4     past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please the escorted into the

 8     courtroom.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12        Q.   One last question as to the surface remains before moving on.

13     These surface remains that you have said were recovered by the BiH

14     authorities, am I correct, all total we're talking about, what, under

15     200?  Under 100?  What is the figure, if you remember?

16        A.   I don't recall the figure.  I don't recall the figure.

17        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  Then we'll move on.

18             MR. IVETIC:  At -- if we can call up 65 ter number 1D1111, and if

19     we can look at page 61 of the same, which should correlate to transcript

20     page 18962 of that underlying transcript.  And if we can zoom in on

21     lines 7 through 19.

22        Q.   And, sir, I'd like to focus with you on this question and answer

23     from the Popovic case again at line 7:

24             "Just generally still, can you tell us whether there had been any

25     evidence in any other graves that you've exhumed that the -- that there

Page 14274

 1     were soldiers comingled with civilians inside the graves?

 2             "A.  We didn't find any significant number of uniforms to

 3     indicate military forces.  We also did not find equipment in -- to

 4     indicate military forces.  We did find some material and some very

 5     limited numbers of, say, a camouflage shirt or a military jacket.

 6             "No, to my recollection or knowledge, no individuals were found

 7     in a complete uniform.  One pistol was located in the belt of an

 8     individual at Glogova.  He wasn't wearing military clothing, and that

 9     pistol was in a loaded condition.  I understand a grenade was found in

10     1996 in the sleeve of an individual, but apart from that, we did not find

11     evidence of military artifacts or clothing amongst the dead."

12             Sir, first of all, do you stand by this question and answer as

13     being truthful and accurate as to the matters stated therein?

14        A.   I do, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Now, you've as part of your investigation seen the statements of

16     many of the Bosnian Muslim males from Srebrenica and I think you will

17     agree with me that there are a significant number of statements talking

18     about how members of the Bosnian Muslim column, whether armed or not,

19     were in civilian rather than military uniforms.  Would you agree with

20     that?

21        A.   That the majority of them were in civilian clothing?  Yes, I

22     would agree with that.

23        Q.   And again, when you say in the previous answer that we read from

24     Popovic that you did not find many in uniforms, et cetera, those

25     observations would be limited to those graves exhumed by the ICTY

Page 14275

 1     personnel; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  I saw the clothing and artefacts from the ICTY graves.  I

 3     did read some details in the Bosnian records.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek clarification of one of the previous

 6     answers.

 7             When you said that you'd agree with the majority of them were in

 8     civilian clothing, did you intend to say that the majority of the members

 9     of the Bosnian Muslim -- oh, it says "column," let me just see.  Yes,

10     majority of the column were in civilian clothing?  Yes, I was a bit

11     confused, Mr. Ivetic, because you -- no, I'm not confused.  I shouldn't

12     blame you for it.  Thank you.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Now, as to the lack of any military hardware, we've already

16     talked about the process of sanitisation, or "asanacija."  And I want to

17     ask you, sir, given what you know, given your investigations, do you

18     consider seriously that at a time of war when "asanacija" is being done

19     to safe-guard the public from harm that could be occasioned by the

20     presence of bodies, explosives, and weapons left in the open, would you

21     consider it logical and reasonable that weapons would be knowingly buried

22     with the bodies where scavengers could get ahold of them and where

23     explosions could still take place?

24        A.   If you're asking me if "asanacija" was conducted correctly, would

25     they bury weapons with the bodies, I would say I doubt that.  There may

Page 14276

 1     be circumstances where they do.  If "asanacija," or clearing of the

 2     battle-field, is done correctly, I would assume that that would happen.

 3        Q.   You're going to have to clarify when you say, "I assume that

 4     would happen," you would assume --

 5        A.   I'm sorry.  That the weapons and explosives would be removed or

 6     protected.  I can see a situation perhaps where a need to bury them

 7     quickly and they bury them completely, including their weapons, with the

 8     intention of recovering them later, but I'm not a military expert.

 9        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And if I could ask you, perhaps, from your

10     professional career in the Australian police force when a body is found

11     with a weapon next to it in the street, is the body interred or buried

12     with that weapon or is the weapon safe-guarded in some other location?

13        A.   Of course it is.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, you do have information that at least some of the

15     bodies that were found in the graves that were not excavated by the ICTY

16     did not or perhaps did not relate to Srebrenica; isn't that right?

17        A.   No, I don't believe so.

18             MR. IVETIC:  If we can look at 1D1112 in e-court, page 61 of that

19     transcript, which should correlate to transcript page 19050 of the

20     Popovic proceedings.  And if we can focus on lines 16 through 19.

21        Q.   Rather than reading the whole thing, I'd like to see if I can

22     refresh your recollection by reading your answers contained in that page

23     of the transcript that says:

24             "The Bljeceva 1 mass grave, which is not an ICTY mass grave,

25     contains the remains of 39 individuals positively identified via DNA

Page 14277

 1     analysis as being missing following the fall of Srebrenica.  It contains

 2     persons from Srebrenica as well as perhaps unconnected bodies."

 3             Does that refresh your recollection or --

 4        A.   I don't recall that evidence, but I accept that that's what I

 5     said.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And would you accept that your recollection was perhaps

 7     better back when you testified in Popovic?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But your question was not that, Mr. Lukic.  Your

 9     question was that -- I beg your pardon, Mr. Ivetic.  I'm sorry,

10     Mr. Lukic, if you are here.

11             MR. IVETIC:  He's not here.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He's not here.

13             Okay.  "Now, you do have information that at least some of the

14     bodies that were found in the graves that were not excavated by the ICTY

15     did not or perhaps did not relate to Srebrenica," and I emphasise

16     "relate."  Now, what you are quoting here, he does indicate that they did

17     relate but there may have been other people within those graves.  But

18     they did relate to Srebrenica.  "The Bljeceva 1 mass grave which is not

19     an ICTY mass grave contains the remains of 39 individuals positively

20     identified via DNA analysis as being missing following the fall of

21     Srebrenica."

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, perhaps I caused an error by skipping

23     to the answer and not reading the question.  If you read from line 9 of

24     transcript, it reads:

25             "'Tuzla canton court Prosecution file," and it gives a number,

Page 14278

 1     "relates to this grave and indicates that this grave also contained the

 2     remains of bodies unconnected with the fall of Srebrenica" --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is not what you quoted to the witness at the

 4     time.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I understand.  That's what I said.  So I take

 6     responsibility for that confusion.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, thank you so much.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  If we can look at page 81 of this transcript which

 9     should correlate to transcript page 19070 of the underlying Popovic

10     transcript.  And if we can focus on line 23 through 25 and then it will

11     be lines 1 through 8 on the next page once we go there.

12        Q.   Again, sir, I invite you to follow along as I read the question

13     and answers and then I'll have some questions about it.

14             "Q.  Okay.  Now, being a police officer for 24 years and having

15     worked murder details, for example, do you believe and agree with me that

16     a pathologist must be independent and objective when coming to the

17     manner," if we can go to the next page, resuming the reading, "and cause

18     of death?

19             "A.  Yes, as should the -- as should the police investigator.

20             "Q.  Okay.  And would you also agree with me that a pathologist

21     must maintain that independence and objectivity, and that neither Defence

22     counsel nor a prosecutor should be allowed to assist or encourage them in

23     the cause or manner of death?

24             "A.  If you're asking if a Defence counsel or Prosecutor should

25     be allowed to assist or encourage in the cause or manner of death, no."

Page 14279

 1             Answer -- pardon me, end of the quotation.

 2             Sir, the question I have for you is:  Do you stand by this prior

 3     testimony as something that is both truthful and accurate, that you would

 4     testify to again if asked the same questions today?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the question is asking for opinion and

 6     judgement, so you could ask the witness whether he has the same opinion

 7     or same judgement --

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- not whether it's accurate or not.

10             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  You're correct, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You could even wonder whether such a question should

12     be put to a witness of fact, but I leave that aside.

13             MR. IVETIC:

14        Q.   Do you still believe the same way or hold the same position that

15     we now read back from Popovic?

16        A.   Yes, I do, in that context, yes.

17        Q.   Do you believe that as an investigator of the Prosecution you

18     were empowered to undertake all measures to obtain a conviction even if

19     it meant being untruthful yourself?

20        A.   Your Honours, if I understand the question correctly, and I take

21     some objection, my job wasn't to obtain a conviction.  My job was to

22     obtain the evidence and hopefully present it in court, and that's your

23     decision or the Court's decision.  I have never been untruthful in this

24     court or any other court, and I believe that my job was to be as

25     independent and impartial as possible.

Page 14280

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, if you could please ask facts of the

 2     witness rather than try to pass judgement on the witness.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  Let me ask him this factual question then.

 4        Q.   Have you ever been untruthful in the course of your --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He's just told you a few minutes ago he has never

 6     been.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  In the courtroom, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Go ahead.

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   Have you ever been untruthful in the course of a witness

11     interview to attempt to obtain information to be used by the Office of

12     the Prosecutor in court proceedings?

13        A.   I don't believe I've been untruthful with the intention of

14     obtaining information.  I would strive to tell the truth as much as

15     possible.  Certainly on occasion you would not tell the witness

16     everything and I would try to ensure that what I told the witness was

17     correct as far as I could tell that witness.  And I would strive not to

18     provide them with information which was false.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I come back to you, Mr. Ivetic, again in the

20     previous sentence the witness said:  "I have never been untruthful in

21     this court or in any other court, and I believe my job was to be as

22     independent and impartial as possible."

23             MR. IVETIC:  I appreciate that, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So even outside the courtroom.  So what you are

25     suggesting to him, outside the courtroom, was already answered by his

Page 14281

 1     assertion of impartiality.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   I think to be fair I'm going to have to go through the entire

 6     procedure from beginning to end.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  If we can look at 1D1113, please, in e-court.  And

 8     it is the 70th page in e-court, which should correlate to transcript

 9     page 19140 of the underlying -- I apologise.  It should be three pages

10     back or four pages back.  And one page before at the middle of the page

11     and we'll be getting to this page eventually, but from line 14 and

12     onwards.  We'll take it step by step.

13        Q.   And if you'll follow along with me, sir, this was your

14     examination in the Popovic trial by one of the Defence teams.

15             "Q.  And you've been at pains, I think particularly when Mr. Meek

16     was cross-examining you, to emphasise how fair, honest and objective you

17     were in conducting interviews with the very witnesses -- with the very

18     many witnesses and suspects you interviewed.  That's correct, isn't it?

19             "A.  I explained to Mr. Meek that that's the way I conduct my

20     duties.

21             "Q.  Would you agree with me that it's part of your interviewing

22     style to make the suspect or witness perfectly aware of the material at

23     your disposal?

24             "A.  Your Honours, again this is quite general, but if I am in a

25     position to tell the suspect certain things, I will.  That's not to say

Page 14282

 1     that if I have a piece of information, that I will tell that person that

 2     I have that information.  I indicated I wouldn't lie, but it's not

 3     always," if we can go to the next page, lines 1 through 2, continuing

 4     with the reading, "the case that I would tell them everything that I knew

 5     or everything that I had.  But, again, that's being very general."

 6             First, do you still stand behind this prior testimony?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   Does this refresh your recollection of the discussion of the

 9     interview that you conducted with Mr. Milorad Bircakovic?

10        A.   Yes, it does.  Your Honours, I was asked about my comments to a

11     witness in a previous trial and I explained that I had said to the

12     witness that I had personally exhumed thousands of bodies and that we had

13     evidence which showed executions taking place at the time.

14        Q.   Were those things that you said to the witness truthful at the

15     time that you said them?

16        A.   Your Honours, I've thought about that since, and I can say that

17     they are.  I did personally exhume thousands of bodies as part of that

18     team.  I stood in the grave and I helped carry the bodies from the graves

19     and I worked for six years on those exhumations -- four years on those

20     exhumations.  And I believe we did have evidence and we do have evidence

21     of executions taking place at the time.  Certainly, the video of the

22     Kravica warehouse shows individuals being executed in the warehouse.  And

23     as a previous witness has indicated, there is evidence of bodies laying

24     on the ground at Kravica warehouse that had been killed by Mr. Erdemovic

25     and his comrades.

Page 14283

 1             So yes, I overexaggerated, I overstated, but I believe that the

 2     facts are true.  And I recall that my position was to make sure that the

 3     witness, who was a witness, understood clearly that we had a wealth of

 4     information and that he very strongly understood our position.

 5        Q.   You just mentioned Mr. Erdemovic and his comrades at Kravica

 6     warehouse.  Was that really the result of your investigation?

 7        A.   Sorry, my apologies.  At --

 8        Q.   Branjevo --

 9        A.   At Branjevo Military Farm.

10             MR. IVETIC:  If we can move ahead three pages from the present

11     point in that 65 ter document in e-court.

12        Q.   I'd like to re-visit what you had said at the Popovic trial so we

13     have the full picture of it.  From lines 1 through to 17, sir.  At

14     number 1 the question posed is:

15             "Why did you tell him all that?

16             "A.  Clearly, I'm indicating to him that we had a substantial

17     amount of information, that it was in his interest to tell the truth.

18     Clearly, I was conducting an interview.  I suspected, as many of them

19     did, that he would lie, and I was trying to give him as much information

20     as possible that we had.

21             "Now, I must make comment on two points.  I wasn't present for

22     the exhumations at those graves.  And you asked me about the aerial

23     imagery of executions, and clearly that's not correct.  When I spoke

24     about the aerial image of executions, in the Branjevo Military Farm

25     photographs you can see what I believe and know to be bodies, and I take

Page 14284

 1     that as a valid comment, that that image shows bodies that have been

 2     executed.  And I don't know why I indicated that I personally exhumed

 3     those bodies, knowing that I wasn't there in 1996.  I would say that I

 4     haven't checked this interview against the record, the actual tape, but I

 5     accept the majority of what was said there.  I can see that there are one

 6     or two words missing, but I accept that I said those things."

 7             Does now this and what you told us in the courtroom just prior to

 8     me asking this contain the entirety of your answer as to why you told

 9     factually incorrect things to this witness during this witness interview?

10        A.   I believe that that represents my position and why I said those

11     things, yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, in relation to the training that you underwent at the

13     Office of the Prosecutor, and I would even extend it back further to the

14     Australian police, were you taught that for interviews of witnesses or

15     suspects it was okay to misstate facts?

16        A.   No, I was not taught that.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, I put it to you, sir, that you want to see Mr. Mladic

18     in the courtroom hearing a guilty verdict because you believe that he

19     murdered people.  Am I correct about you?

20        A.   Your Honours, I'm not sure if the Court wants to hear my personal

21     view of the matter.  I've already stated that I undertook my duties in an

22     impartial manner, and I believe I sought to show evidence no matter

23     whether it was exculpatory or the reverse.  I believe that's my official

24     position, and I don't know if the Court wants to hear my personal views.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Manning, the Court does not want to hear your

Page 14285

 1     personal views.  But it does seem as if Mr. Ivetic wants to hear them.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours.  If I can go back to the

 3     question --

 4             MR. IVETIC:

 5        Q.   I'll repeat it for you, if you like.

 6        A.   Yes, please.

 7        Q.   I put it to you, sir, that you want to see Mr. Mladic in the

 8     courtroom hearing a guilty verdict because you believe that he murdered

 9     people.  Am I correct about this?

10        A.   Your Honours, that's correct, although I would say I want to see

11     him in the courtroom and evidence presented, and if that evidence is

12     sufficient - and I believe it is - that he be convicted for murdering men

13     and boys, individuals.

14        Q.   Would you ever misrepresent facts in order to obtain a conviction

15     of General Mladic?

16        A.   No, I would not.  And in the example that you've provided, I

17     don't believe I even approached that.  As I said, I believe I exaggerated

18     and the facts behind that are correct.  I did exhume thousands of bodies

19     and there is evidence of executions taking place.

20        Q.   I would like to take a few moments to review a video with you

21     that was just disclosed to us by the Prosecution 48 hours ago.

22             MR. IVETIC:  We do have the original transcript as provided by

23     the provider, and it has been uploaded into e-court --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

25             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, for the record, I'd just like to make

Page 14286

 1     clear that this is a video available from a very public source --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, yes, I wasn't implying that it was -- that it

 3     was a violation of any sort of the disclosure.

 4             But the transcript is in e-court and has been, I believe, given

 5     to all the booths.  And if I can preface it by saying there is one part

 6     that I note where on the screen they are showing parts of the Srebrenica

 7     trial video and there are, I believe, subtitles or translations of that

 8     video --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Registrar informs the Chamber that only one

12     copy was provided in the French language to the French booth and nothing

13     else.

14             MR. IVETIC:  If the booths can assist, I personally delivered to

15     the English and the B/C/S, if they can confirm that they have those.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see somebody nodding in this booth here, showing

17     a piece of paper, another one there -- I can't see the rest -- the

18     stenographer is throwing her hands in the air.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Oh, I can -- with the assistance of the usher, I

20     could provide a copy for the stenographer as well.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure that I'm getting any response

22     from those booths there.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, it's my understanding that the French

24     booth is on that side and the English and B/C/S are behind us.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  There are two booths here.  One must be the

Page 14287

 1     French, the other one must be some other language.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah, I don't know which one is which.  That's why I

 3     asked for assistance to getting it to the French booths.  I don't know

 4     how we can confirm that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We're not hearing from them.  I will assume

 6     that they are okay.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  And as I was saying, there is -- there

 8     does appear to be a section of the interview with the journalist where

 9     portions of the Srebrenica trial video that we've used in this case, and

10     that's been viewed time and again, is present and those sections do not

11     appear in the transcript as provided by the media outlet that produced

12     this documentary.  So I wanted to bring that to everyone's attention.

13     I'm not intending to rely on anything as translated in the subtitles or

14     in the audio relating to the Srebrenica trial video.  I want to focus

15     only on the words said by the journalist and by Mr. Manning.  And that's

16     the introduction I have for this video.

17             And it is 1D1126 and the first segment I'd like to show is from

18     2 minutes and 14 seconds to 3 minutes and 53 seconds.  And, Your Honours,

19     are we still showing them twice?  I'm prepared to do so if that is the

20     case.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think, yeah, we might as well show them twice

22     because you see --

23             MR. IVETIC:  Right.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- relying on the text between Mr. Manning and the

25     journalist.

Page 14288

 1             MR. IVETIC:  So then we will play the first time.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             "Liam Bartlett:  Dean Manning, Australian federal policeman, has

 4     spent six years as an investigator in one of the biggest crime scenes in

 5     the world, preparing the case against General Mladic.  He will testify

 6     how Mladic incited his men to hunt down, capture, and execute Muslims.

 7             "Ratko Mladic: [Voiceover] 'The time has come to take revenge on

 8     the Muslims.'

 9             "Dean:  He said that here in front of his men.

10             "Liam Bartlett:  What does that mean to his men?

11             "Dean:  'Take revenge' - kill them, and that's what they did.

12             "Liam Bartlett:  The murderous directive was carried out with

13     such cold-blooded efficiency, it was over in just three days - some of it

14     even recorded by the killers for their home videos.  Srebrenica was

15     sealed off, women were raped, and 8.000 men and boys executed.

16             "Dean:  What they intended to do was destroy the population.

17     They took the men and killed them and they took the boys - so they

18     couldn't become men - and they killed them.

19             "Liam Bartlett:  The males were separated into groups and held at

20     various staging points, like this warehouse on the outskirts of town.

21     Despite the clear evidence on video, Dean must prove forensically that

22     Mladic masterminded the atrocity."

23             MR. IVETIC:  Now I will rewind and play it back the second time.

24     And here is the second playing.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 14289

 1             "Liam Bartlett:  Dean Manning, an Australian federal policeman,

 2     has spent six years as an investigator in one of the biggest crime scenes

 3     in the world, preparing the case against General Mladic.  He will testify

 4     how Mladic incited his men to hunt down, capture, and execute Muslims.

 5             "Ratko Mladic:  [Voiceover] 'The time has come to take revenge on

 6     the Muslims.'

 7             "Dean:  He said that here in front of his men.

 8             "Liam Bartlett:  What does that mean to his men?

 9             "Dean:  'Take revenge' - kill them, and that's what they did.

10             "Liam Bartlett:  The murderous directive was carried out with

11     such cold-blooded efficiency, it was over in just three days - some of it

12     even recorded by the killers for their home videos.  Srebrenica was

13     sealed off, women were raped, and 8.000 men and boys executed.

14             "Dean:  What they intended to do was destroy the population.

15     They took the men and killed them and they took the boys - so they

16     couldn't become men - and they killed them.

17             "Liam Bartlett:  The males were separated into groups and held at

18     various staging points, like this warehouse on the outskirts of town.

19     Despite the clear evidence on video, Dean must prove forensically that

20     Mladic masterminded the atrocity."

21             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

22        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to ask you some questions about this section

23     we've just reviewed.  First of all, do you consider your duty to prove

24     forensically that General Mladic masterminded the atrocity, as is -- as

25     was stated by the narrator, Mr. Liam Bartlett?

Page 14290

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are we clear that these are not the witness's

 2     words, these are the words of the journalist?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

 4             THE WITNESS:  And, Your Honour, that was my response.  Those

 5     words were of the journalist.  I had no control over what he said and how

 6     they presented that interview.  They are his words.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Now, did you have a role in selecting the videos that were to be

 9     shown as part of this interview during either your recitation or the

10     recitation by the interviewer, Mr. Liam Bartlett?

11        A.   No, they had access to those videos and I didn't discuss with him

12     that selection.

13        Q.   Okay.  And was the translation of the first part of the

14     Srebrenica trial video, was that translation the actual official

15     translation, or was that done by the news journalists at this

16     "60 Minutes" programme?

17        A.   I assume by the "60 Minutes" people.  I don't know.

18        Q.   When you said, "he said that here in front of his men," had you

19     reviewed the tape with their translation or had you -- or were you

20     referring to the original tape you had viewed as an investigator with the

21     Office of the Prosecutor?

22        A.   Your Honours, I was referring to a conversation with

23     Mr. Bartlett, in which -- and he had obviously been aware of it, in which

24     he asked me about the words that Mr. Mladic said there, and my response

25     to them and my understanding of what he told me - and which I believe is

Page 14291

 1     correct - is that he said words very similar to what was translated.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, when the interviewer, Mr. Liam Bartlett is talking

 3     about how the murderous directive was carried out in just -- in just

 4     three days and was even recorded by the killers for their home videos,

 5     and then they're showing a video, did you recognise that video as the

 6     so-called Skorpions video, which I think you referenced earlier in

 7     your -- in the cross-examination?

 8        A.   I did, yes.

 9        Q.   Would you agree with me that the Skorpions video does not date to

10     three days after the Srebrenica but dates to the end of July or the

11     beginning of August in a different region known as Trnovo, which is

12     closer to Sarajevo than to Srebrenica?

13        A.   Again, the three days are his words, and I would have to check

14     that the Skorpions video was -- I'm not saying discovered.  But I wasn't

15     at the Tribunal when that was found and I don't know all the details.

16        Q.   Okay.  Did you view this piece after it had been aired or after

17     it had been prepared, I should say?

18        A.   The first time that I viewed it was after it had been aired in

19     Australia.  I think I viewed it on the internet.  I was in Dubai at the

20     time.

21        Q.   And at the time that you viewed it, did you at that time take any

22     action to dissociate yourself from the words of Mr. Bartlett and the

23     showing of the Srebrenica video from a different time-period and the

24     quoting of it being three days from the words issued by General Mladic?

25        A.   Your Honours, I don't think that's a correct statement of what

Page 14292

 1     happened.  They say - and they're not my words - "within three days," and

 2     then they show the video of the boys and women and children.  They may

 3     have been referring to that.  And as I said to you, I don't know the date

 4     range of the Skorpions video.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you said you would not rely on what was

 7     played.  Could you assist me because that seems to be part of your line

 8     of questioning.  The portion played before this witness comments on

 9     saying "take revenge" before your troops means, et cetera.  What was

10     said, was that part shown where the word "revenge" is used or not?  Since

11     you have not -- you say you would not rely on it, but it's of course

12     relevant for understanding your testimony.  Could you agree with the

13     Prosecution on what exactly at that portion --

14             MR. IVETIC:  Was said, yeah.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Mladic said.

16             MR. IVETIC:  And I believe we had that from the Srebrenica trial

17     video.  What I was --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it could be but --

19             MR. IVETIC:  I misspoke.  I meant to say I'm not relying upon the

20     transcript that the producer has produced as to that portion because it's

21     not in the transcript, is what I should have said.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I see that.  But for us to understand at this

23     very moment, not having the whole of the Srebrenica trial video on our

24     minds second for second.  What was exactly said by Mr. Mladic before the

25     witness started saying something about revenge and that means killing

Page 14293

 1     before the troops.  What was said?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I can at the break check and perhaps even reach a

 3     stipulation with the counsel on that.  That's something I'll be

 4     [overlapping speakers] --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So that we better understand.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, that's fine.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   Sir, do you recall -- do you recall this interview and this

10     video?

11        A.   Yes, of course.

12        Q.   Do you recall later on where there is -- well, let me just do it

13     this way.  I'd like to show you also the last part of this --

14             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, this is page 3 in the transcript for

15     those that have the hard copies, the last two paragraphs.  And so in

16     e-court, it's also the last page of the transcript of 1D1126, and it is

17     the section from 12 minutes and 34 seconds to 13 minutes and 8 seconds,

18     which I will again play twice in the procedure that we have adopted here.

19     34.

20             Okay, I'm ready to do that now, Your Honours, with your leave.

21     The first playing.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             "Liam Bartlett:  For Dean Manning and Bob Reid, it's a case of

24     piecing together the evidence that will not only see Mladic convicted,

25     but reveal to the world the full horror of those three days in

Page 14294

 1     Srebrenica.

 2             "Dean:  What I want to see is a trial where the world is shown

 3     what he did.  I want to see the truth come out and be shown to the world

 4     that he murdered people.  I want to see him sitting in that courtroom and

 5     hear the verdict."

 6             MR. IVETIC:  And now the second playing, the second playing

 7     commencing from 12.34 to 13.08

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             "Liam Bartlett:  For Dean Manning and Bob Reid, it's a case of

10     piecing together the evidence that will not only see Mladic convicted,

11     but reveal to the world the full horror of those three days in

12     Srebrenica.

13             "Dean:  What I want to see is a trial where the world is shown

14     what he did.  I want to see the truth come out and be shown to the world

15     that he murdered people.  I want to see him sitting in that courtroom and

16     hear the verdict."

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   Now, in relation to that --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic ...

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. IVETIC:  If I may have a moment, Your Honours, to try to --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do.

23             MR. IVETIC:  -- consult with my client.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very quietly.

25                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

Page 14295

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   Now, in relation to this piece that we've seen, first of all,

 3     sir, are the words uttered by the journalist narrator, Mr. Liam Bartlett

 4     accurate as to you:

 5             "For Dean Manning and Bob Reid, it's a case of piecing together

 6     the evidence that will not only see Mladic convicted but reveal to the

 7     world the full horror of those three days in Srebrenica"?

 8        A.   Your Honours, they're not my words.  They're a journalist's

 9     words.

10        Q.   And do you stand by the part at the end that was played of your

11     words?

12        A.   I do, yes.

13        Q.   Okay.  And with respect to the video again that was shown, the

14     Skorpions video that we have in evidence in this case, since you say that

15     you don't know when that was obtained, can you tell me based upon your

16     investigation and your experience when you believe that the events taking

17     place in the video take place?

18        A.   It was my view that that occurred very soon after the fall of

19     Srebrenica.  I believed it was within that time-frame, but as I say, I

20     didn't investigate that matter.  And that video was produced by the --

21     sorry, presented by the documentary maker and I had no hand in that.

22        Q.   When you say that you believed it was within that time-frame,

23     what is "that time-frame" a reference to?

24        A.   That it occurred as a result of the fall of Srebrenica, that

25     those men had been captured from Srebrenica as it fell on the

Page 14296

 1     11th of July and that they were killed subsequent to that.  I don't

 2     recall even considering when the date was.  I understood that it was

 3     connected to the fall of Srebrenica.

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             THE WITNESS:  And that those individuals were missing from

 6     Srebrenica.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Okay.  What did your investigation and knowledge reveal about the

 9     location where these men were shot in the video, Trnovo?  Is that closer

10     to Sarajevo or to Srebrenica?

11        A.   Your Honours, I didn't investigate the video.  It came about

12     after I left, but I would agree with you that Trnovo is further away from

13     Sarajevo -- from Srebrenica.

14        Q.   Okay.  You say that the video was selected by the persons who

15     produced this news documentary segment.  Did you have occasion to view

16     the video with them, the Srebrenica video -- the Srebrenica Skorpions

17     video?

18        A.   I think I did, yes.  And I think I'm -- in one of my reports I

19     commented on the DNA analysis of their -- the grave that they were

20     located in and that they were directly linked to Srebrenica and the fall

21     of Srebrenica.  As to the timings, as I said, I don't know.

22        Q.   And so you even referenced, and I believe you're correct, in one

23     of your reports the Srebrenica video.  But you didn't believe that as an

24     impartial investigator looking for the truth that you should have

25     investigated when this video was shot and where?  You didn't think that

Page 14297

 1     was part of being an impartial investigator?

 2        A.   Your Honours, there's evidence that those victims were connected

 3     to the fall of Srebrenica.  They've been identified as victims of

 4     Srebrenica via DNA.  I didn't investigate that video; it was after my

 5     time.  And I believe the fact that they are victims of Srebrenica, at

 6     probably whatever time they were killed, is sufficient.  They were killed

 7     and they are victims of Srebrenica.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   Do you feel that you can, sitting here as a witness, separate

11     your personal conviction and feelings or position that we've now

12     discussed and we've seen in the videotape from the testimony that you're

13     giving under solemn declaration before this Chamber?

14        A.   Your Honours, I believe I was measured in what I said in that

15     interview.  I don't believe I said that he should be convicted no matter

16     what.  I was certainly not indicating that he should not receive a fair

17     trial and that's my position.  I was asked directly what I wanted to see,

18     and I told a journalist that.  That is in no way affecting my position as

19     a witness in this court under oath providing evidence.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, that concludes my cross-examination for

22     this witness.

23        Q.   Thank you, sir, for answering my questions.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Ivetic.

25             Mr. Jeremy, any re-examination?

Page 14298

 1             MR. JEREMY:  No re-examination, Your Honours, but I would like to

 2     deal with the MFI'd exhibits.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  So I'd like to -- I'd like those to be formally

 5     admitted into evidence --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, you objected to these exhibits

 7     yesterday.  You haven't sort of challenged them.  As you said, they

 8     were -- lots of hearsay yesterday when you talked about them, and in

 9     addition you used some of them yourself in cross-examination.  Do you

10     still maintain your objection?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I do.  I did ask the witness if, in

12     fact, these expert reports from these third agencies were sought for the

13     purposes of litigation, and he answered in the affirmative.  So I believe

14     under the jurisprudence of the Tribunal, the proper method to get those

15     documents in would have to be 92 ter.  If these outside experts who

16     prepared written reports, which in essence is their written testimony,

17     which this witness did not participate in, if those findings are to be

18     something that the Chamber is going to rely upon, I think that the proper

19     mode of testimony would be 92 bis or 92 ter, rather than it coming in

20     through a witness who is reciting them, perhaps correctly, perhaps

21     incorrectly, in layman's terms in a report that he has authored that

22     doesn't identify necessarily which conclusions come from him, which come

23     from predecessor investigators, and which come from these third-party

24     experts.  And so I think for those purposes, I would maintain my

25     objection to the reports that we MFI'd yesterday, which I think there's

Page 14299

 1     four of them in total.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any response to that, Mr. --

 3             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.  Of -- to the extent that

 4     Mr. Manning's report relate to experts who are not going to be called

 5     before this Tribunal who Defence will not have the opportunity to

 6     cross-examine and he won't have the opportunity to see, this relates to

 7     one of Mr. Manning's reports, the 2000 report, which is P1735 MFI.  Now,

 8     that's a 141-page report, approximately three pages of that report

 9     relates to summary of expert reports, expert evidence, that we won't be

10     tendering and we won't be calling those experts.  Our position is that

11     those references should remain because they relate to the integrity of

12     the investigation conducted by Mr. Manning, to his credibility, to the

13     credibility of the investigation, all of which has been challenged in the

14     course of cross-examination of the witness.  Moreover, those reports are

15     very elementary in nature as compared to the reports of the experts who

16     we are calling.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The -- I see you are rising, Mr. Jeremy.

19             MR. JEREMY:  No, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Chamber has considered both objections on the

21     tendering of the documents.  The Chamber will look at the weight to be

22     attached to the documents and -- but the documents are hereby admitted.

23             Madam Registrar, P1735 MFI, P1736 MFI, P1737 MFI, and P1738 MFI,

24     if you can remove the MFI status of all those.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 14300

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Mr. Ivetic, I don't know whether I made a

 2     mistake here.  Can I -- you were talking about all four of these

 3     exhibits, isn't it so?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I was talking about all four, but as I believe we

 5     discussed yesterday, I think that counsel is right that the soil,

 6     explosives, and blood tissue are related to the one from --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  735.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  -- 1735, that's I believe --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

10             MR. IVETIC:  -- correct.  But that the others do contain -- do

11     contain opinions from experts that are not identified to be able to

12     determine which are from the witness, which are from experts, whether

13     those experts are ones that are appearing or not appearing.  But the ones

14     that are not appearing, I think counsel is correct, are limited to that

15     one exhibit, P1735 MFI'd.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So the others -- the experts quoted in there are

17     going to be called?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Are on the list.  Whether they will be called or not

19     [overlapping speakers] --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  They're on the list, yeah.  Okay.

21             That's fine.  [Microphone not activated]

22             MR. IVETIC:  Microphone, Your Honour, I think.

23             MR. JEREMY:  That's correct, Your Honours, no re-examination.

24     Thank you.

25             MR. IVETIC:  I forgot to tender 1D1126, Your Honours.  That's the

Page 14301

 1     only reason that I'm still standing.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

 3             Sorry, my mike doesn't come on.  Do you have an objection to

 4     that, Mr. Jeremy?

 5             MR. JEREMY:  Just to clarify whether Mr. Ivetic is tendering the

 6     entire video or just the portions that he's played.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I believe the practice has been to tender the entire

 9     videos.  Back when I did excerpts I was told that was not what we're

10     doing in this courtroom, that we should identify in the transcript the

11     portions of the entire video that are played so that's how I've

12     proceeded.  Please instruct me if I'm wrong.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Well, I think the video is about 20 minutes long and

14     we've seen a couple of minutes of it.  It's ...

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I suppose you'll be tendering just the portion

16     that you played, Mr. Ivetic, because we didn't see the rest of that

17     video.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Agreed, Your Honour, but then the Prosecution has

19     tendered multiple videos in their entirety for which we've only seen

20     portions thereof, so I'm a little confused, then, as to which is the

21     procedure.  I thought that we were told to identify in the record the

22     start and the end times, which I did, so that the persons going back

23     could recreate what was seen in the courtroom.  But if I'm wrong, I'll --

24     please tell me and I'll just -- I'll comply with whatever order is given.

25             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, if Mr. Ivetic wishes to tender the

Page 14302

 1     whole video, we have no problem with that.  Presumably he would also be

 2     tendering the transcript and I've taken a quick look at that and I see

 3     it's been taken from the web site of the source.  I think it is actually

 4     inaccurate in a couple of places.  There were quotes --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  -- misattributed.  So I'd like that to be MFI'd and

 7     verified by Defence before being formally admitted.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine.  He's correct, there are

 9     misattributions as to the speakers that I noted at least twice.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  You did indicate that a little

11     earlier.  The video will be admitted in its entirety and you'll file a

12     corrected transcript.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Verified by CLSS.

15             MR. IVETIC:  I will.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             Then, Mr. Manning, that brings us to the end --

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, you were standing up.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 1D1126 receives number

21     D330, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  D330.

23             Yeah, Mr. Manning, that brings us to the end of your testimony.

24     Thank you so much for coming to testify at the Tribunal and for answering

25     all the questions from the Bench and from the parties.  You are now

Page 14303

 1     excused, and please travel well back home.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I appreciate it.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it is time for the break.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, it is.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness

 8     after the break?

 9             MR. JEREMY:  We are, Your Honours.  Ms. Hochhauser will be

10     leading the next witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, who will testify in closed session?

12             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, I believe that's correct.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We take the break and we resume at 20 minutes to

14     2.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Moloto would like to put something on the

18     record.  Let's start with that first.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Judge.

20             Madam Registrar indicated that maybe the record did not show

21     clearly what happened to ID 1126.  The entire tape is admitted into

22     evidence.  It is not MFI'd, it's admitted.  The transcript must still be

23     corrected and uploaded.  Can the record show that.

24             Thank you, Judge.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we turn into closed session for the next

Page 14304

 1     witness to be called by the Prosecution.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I, in the meantime, make a correction for the

 3     transcript.  It's not ID 1126, but 1D1126 which is D330.

 4                           [Closed session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14305











11  Pages 14305-14317 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 14318

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You can see what co-operation between the parties is

 4     able to achieve.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I said.  That's what we achieved.

 7             We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Friday, the

 8     12th of July, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, III, but

 9     the public is already informed that we will immediately return into

10     closed session after we have resumed.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 12th day of

13                           July, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.